Editor’s Notes: Tucker Carlson travels to the banks of the River Jordan to investigate how Christians are really treated in the Holy Land under US‑funded Israeli rule versus in the Muslim kingdom of Jordan. Through raw testimony from church leaders and prominent local Christians, the video explores church attacks, shrinking Christian communities, and why many feel safer in Jordan than in Israel. It also asks why wealthy Western Christian churches pour money into Israeli settlements while historic Christian towns like Bethlehem and Nazareth struggle to survive. Stay tuned for a stark, on‑the‑ground look at persecution, power, and what Christian solidarity should really mean in this region. (Feb 5, 2026)
TRANSCRIPT:
Introduction: Standing at the River Jordan
TUCKER CARLSON: Good evening. From where I’m standing right now, I can see all around me in a ring seven Christian churches. We’re not going to pan to see them. You can see one behind me, but they’re all on the ridges of this valley around me.
We are about a hundred yards from the river Jordan and about a hundred and fifty yards from the spot where Jesus, the Christian savior, God on Earth, was baptized by John the Baptist, famously the beginning of his ministry and the beginning, really, of the gospel.
John the Baptist lived famously in the wilderness, eating locusts and honey. That was right here. We are in the Holy Land, but on the political map, we’re in an overwhelmingly Muslim country, a monarchy called Jordan. And that’s significant, particularly now, because the question of how Christians are treated in the holy land is a political question, and it is because much of what happens in this region is funded by the United States, by its taxpayers, military action, but also the cultural and religious life of the region is funded to a great extent by American Christian churches.
And so the question that we’ve asked for some time now is what’s the outcome?
The Decline of Christians in Israel
How are Christians in the Holy Land doing? Are they thriving or are they suffering? And the truth has become pretty obvious over the past couple of years, which is in Israel, they are not thriving. Their numbers are not growing. They are shrinking, and there’s a huge debate about why.
But the bottom line is there are fewer Christians now, far fewer in absolute numbers and particularly as percentage of population than there were when the state was founded in 1948. And there’s a lot of evidence in the last couple of years, particularly since the Gaza War started, and the whole tone of the conversation in this area has changed quite a bit, and the rise of extremism, very noticeable, that those numbers have gotten even smaller.
And in Jerusalem, if you follow this at all on the Internet, you see video clip after video clip of Christian clergy being spit at by religious extremists, not Muslim religious extremists, but Jewish religious extremists. And that’s something most Americans didn’t know happened, didn’t think could happen, particularly since the United States, the most important Christian country in the world, is funding this.
And anyone who’s raised this question, this show has done that, has been dismissed out of hand as a liar or an anti Semite or best of all, a secret jihadi, a secret Muslim. “You must be a Muslim.” And so we thought it’d be worth coming here to find out what the truth is or at least getting closer to the truth. The truth being pretty elusive usually in political terms, but why not go ahead and talk to people?
Why not go ahead and talk to Christians and find out their side of the story? Why aren’t Christian churches doing this? Why aren’t American Christian leaders like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz, people who invoke the Christian Bible to justify what they’re doing? Why haven’t they done this? We can only guess, but they haven’t. They have funded the other side. So we thought, let’s talk to them.
Introducing Our Guests
So we are about to play interviews that we just did about five minutes ago with two Christians from this area. One was born in Israel. One was born in Jordan. The one born in Israel was born, in fact, in Jesus’ hometown of Nazareth. His father was literally a carpenter, which is kind of hilarious. He is now the Anglican archbishop of Jerusalem, which is to say he’s the representative of the Anglican church, the global Anglican church in Jerusalem.
Whatever you think of the Anglican church, it’s not a small thing, and this is a very well informed person. And you can judge for yourself whether he’s telling the truth or not. Our view is he absolutely is telling the truth. And the story that he’s going to tell you in just a minute is pretty shocking if you’re a Western Christian because it’s a story of Christians being oppressed in Jerusalem by a government that American Christians pay for.
And the second person we’re going to speak to is a businessman who runs a bank here in Jordan from a very prominent Christian family. And if you’re an American, you may be surprised to learn that in Jordan, a country that’s probably ninety seven percent Muslim, Christians who’ve been here for, of course, two thousand years are disproportionately represented at the higher end of the economy, which is to say there’s a large number of Christian families who are hugely successful in Jordan and have been for a long time since the creation of the state about a hundred years ago.
That’s not something you’re going to see on CNN. How would Christians thrive in a Muslim country? And we’re not experts on this, of course, being not that well versed in Islam, but we thought it’d be worth talking to a sincere Christian whose family’s been here for two thousand years and ask, how did that happen?
We are twenty five miles from Jerusalem. And so with that, keep an open mind, listen carefully to what sincere Christians in this area have to say about what’s happening here, and you may find a story that shocks you.
Interview with the Anglican Archbishop of Jerusalem
TUCKER CARLSON: Archbishop, thank you. You live in Jerusalem, but we’re on the other side. We’re about a hundred yards from Israel across the West Bank, across the Jordan. How are Christians doing in the Holy Land?
ARCHBISHOP: You know, Christians in the Holy Land, of course, have been here for two thousand years. And over the history, the Christian community has thrived in phases, declined in others, but I think now we are on the declining end of our Christian presence in the Holy Land.
In general, we’re still living our faith, witnessing to our communities, and also trying to maintain our presence. And I’m sorry to say that because maintaining, because maintenance is not on the good side of things.
TUCKER CARLSON: No, it’s not growth.
ARCHBISHOP: It’s not growth, it’s not thriving, it’s not accomplishing and achieving. We are custodians of the Christian faith and Jerusalem is the capital of our faith. It’s our spiritual capital. But to see the declining numbers of Christians over the decades, and especially since ’48 and ’67, we have seen challenging phases of Christians facing realities that we were not used to before.
TUCKER CARLSON: So 1948 was the year that the political state of Israel was created.
ARCHBISHOP: That’s correct.
TUCKER CARLSON: And a huge percentage of the population was expelled that year. 1967, the Six Day War increased the territory of the state, and the majority is now called occupied territory. Were there big declines after both of those in the Christian population?
ARCHBISHOP: Absolutely. So, you can think about, you know, the Christian population, it dwindled to half in ’48 because many people had to leave. What is my homeland? You know, where I grew in Nazareth, Galilee, half of the Palestinian population had to be expelled to other places. And who became refugees?
So when we speak about Palestinian refugees today, they are all coming or came from what is proper Israel today.
Palestinian Christians: A Hidden Story
TUCKER CARLSON: What I think most Americans don’t understand is that some large number of those refugees who were expelled by force from their land were Christian.
ARCHBISHOP: Yeah. There are many Christians. Absolutely. Let me tell you something. Our congregation in Beirut, All Saints, is ninety percent. They come from Haifa, Akko, Nazareth, and other places around Galilee. Ninety percent of the Anglican community in Beirut are Palestinian Christians who come from Galilee.
TUCKER CARLSON: So in the United States, as you may or may not know, “Palestinian” is a synonym, is the same word for Islamic terrorist. When people in the American media say “Palestinian,” it means someone who’s an Islamist, basically. But you’re saying that a lot of those Palestinian refugees were Christians, Anglicans even.
ARCHBISHOP: Absolutely. I think there are many places in the world where people can use words that mean something really horrific. But that’s demonizing.
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it sounds also untrue.
ARCHBISHOP: Absolutely. Because, you know, when you speak about Palestinians, I’m Palestinian. I’m an archbishop.
TUCKER CARLSON: You look like an Anglican actually.
ARCHBISHOP: So I think, you know, this is, again, this is like a kind of killing the image of the Palestinian people by claiming that they are terrorists or they are uncivilized or they are savages. I think this is exactly just pushing an agenda where they just want to frame you so that Palestinians lose sympathy in the world. That’s basically what it is.
Christian Zionism and Its Impact
TUCKER CARLSON: What’s striking to me is that that narrative, as you said, that image is being pushed not just by Jewish supporters of Israel, but in the United States, heavily by Christian supporters of Israel. Christian supporters of Israel in the US are dismissing their brother Christians in this region as terrorists.
ARCHBISHOP: I totally agree. There are lots of agendas, and especially many Christians around the world, you know, who think that they are doing favor to the Jewish people. And I have, like, really two full answers to that.
The first one is about Jews themselves. You know, as we know, there are many Jewish people, people of faith, who see in these groups also as people who really don’t work for their interest. You know, we know what dispensationalism is about. We know what dispensationalism is about. Politicians around the world, especially the colonial thinking of bringing the Jewish people to the Holy Land or to the land of Israel, is something that can really fit both agendas.
But actually, you know, and we have heard this time and time again from many Jewish people who say that this agenda eventually, you know, for all the Jewish people coming to their homelands, you know, becomes again a kind of a trap because they’re all supposed to convert to Christianity or die.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ARCHBISHOP: So for them, this is an offense, you know, in that thinking of Zionist Christian thinking and that some narratives would be damaging even to Jewish people and Jewish faith.
Now for us as Christians, of course, it’s damaging because think about, let me tell you a story, a real story. I once was in a community visiting England, and I was speaking about, you know, how some Christians who have Zionist approach to the whole politics and agendas, you know, can be damaging to us as Christians in the Holy Land.
And they say, “How come?” I said, you know, because this agenda of money coming from the West, sometimes, you know, they enable people, settlers, you know, to confiscate my own land. We have lots of examples in Bethlehem where money that comes from around the world is invested in building settlements on Christian land.
You know what the answer was? They told me, “Sometimes we need to make a sacrifice for a better good, a greater good.” Can you imagine that answer?
TUCKER CARLSON: Christians told you this?
ARCHBISHOP: Yeah. Christian, you know, somebody told me this, and I had youth group with me. I’m telling you, they were in tears. They were in tears. How can a Christian brother or sister around the world take me as means no matter what happens to me? How can I really reconcile myself with this?
So from this story, I’m telling you that, you know, these views sometimes are damaging because, you know, they are exclusive. I’m not judging, you know, Christian Zionists for their belief. They can believe what they want to believe. But when it comes to exclusion, excluding Palestinians, whether they are Christian or Muslim, I think this is where my problem lies in their ideology, if you know what I mean.
Christianity and Violence
TUCKER CARLSON: It doesn’t sound, I mean, I don’t, I think we can say that Christianity does not support violence.
ARCHBISHOP: Of course not.
TUCKER CARLSON: Right.
ARCHBISHOP: Of course. And we condemn violence whatever.
TUCKER CARLSON: Whatever it is.
ARCHBISHOP: And I think Jesus is pretty clear on that.
TUCKER CARLSON: Absolutely. Could not be clearer. So for a Christian to say, support violence against other Christians because that’s what Jesus wants, does that strike you as valid?
ARCHBISHOP: How can that be? Indeed. And this is why we always say that Christianity is about bringing people together. It’s about forgiveness, reconciliation, peace building. These are the values, the core values of Christianity. And if we fail as Christians to do that, to bring people together, we are God’s people.
We are God’s children, whoever we may be. Yes, we have our beliefs. We have where we stand. But we as Christians, we know that, and we have been saying this all along. For two thousand years, Christians have been witnessing to this truth from the beginning.
And that’s why we continue to exist here. Despite the long history, our holy sites are our anchor here in the Holy Land.
TUCKER CARLSON: So you are a Christian from Nazareth?
SPEAKER: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: Jesus’ hometown?
SPEAKER: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: What did your father do?
SPEAKER: No, my dad was a carpenter.
TUCKER CARLSON: I knew that. I just wanted to hear you say it because it’s so funny. You know, but we were also like, we are fishermen. So if you ask me what you do for a hobby, that would be like fishing would be my—
SPEAKER: Amazing.
TUCKER CARLSON: No. It’s just I mean, you are a Christian from Nazareth in Galilee. Amazing.
The Exodus from Nazareth
TUCKER CARLSON: Compare Nazareth, its Christian population, to your childhood to now. Are there more Christians in Nazareth now or fewer?
SPEAKER: No, they are—if there aren’t fewer, let me say like fifty years ago, I think then they have not grown. Yes. Especially recently, like, you know, in the last maybe two decades, we have seen like an exodus of Christians even from Nazareth and Galilee in general due to many reasons. Yes.
And we are talking now what is proper Israel today. Now in the West Bank, it’s a different story because, you know, of the occupation, there is another narrative there. But inside Israel, today, there are so many pressures, not only on Christians, Christians or even some Jewish people who are also leaving the country for different reasons. Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: I see. How much aid, how much money do Christians around the world send to Christians living in Nazareth?
SPEAKER: Very minimal.
TUCKER CARLSON: Very minimal? Yeah.
SPEAKER: How really? You know, we the Anglican Church, of course, we have partners around the world. Yes. And they’re in they’re especially like in the States, we have the American Friends of the Diocese of Jerusalem, Anglican, they’re doing fantastic support. But if you kind of compare the amount of money that comes to the other side, we are talking about a drop in the ocean.
TUCKER CARLSON: Really? Yeah. So Christian churches in the United States send more money to, say, Jewish settlements in the West Bank than they do to Christians in Jesus’ hometown of Nazareth?
SPEAKER: That’s not a secret. That’s not a secret. Everybody knows that. Yeah.
The Bleeding Town of Bethlehem
TUCKER CARLSON: What about Bethlehem?
SPEAKER: Now, Bethlehem is a different challenge there. I don’t know if you have visited Bethlehem before, you would see that the city is surrounded by the wall, the separation wall that separates, you know, East Jerusalem, Jerusalem from Bethlehem.
And, you know, the occupation and the kind of the wall that separates the two countries now and also measures and huge measures of restrictions, of movement, and all of that is causing many people to leave the country. And now, I think, imagine like one hundred thousand Christians in Bethlehem, let’s say fifty years ago or so, today we have less than thirty thousand.
TUCKER CARLSON: Really?
SPEAKER: Yeah, huge drop.
TUCKER CARLSON: Do they receive aid from American Christian churches?
SPEAKER: Not to my knowledge. They might receive like projects here and there, but, you know, like substantial money to keep their businesses. You know, I just want you to go now, especially during the war, the Gaza war, in the last two years. Go to Bethlehem and see what has happened.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I could.
SPEAKER: The little town of Bethlehem is bleeding right now. There’s no business, no tourists, no visitors.
TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t understand. So the American Christian church is, broadly speaking, the church, Christians in the United States, is by far the richest in the world and the biggest. And why wouldn’t they send help to Christians in the town where Jesus was born and the town that he grew up?
SPEAKER: You know, I’m sure that, you know, people may have different answers, but I think my answer would be the kind of the big answer would be, which could be shocking for some people, that is that they would be concerned that they send the money and it ends up in the hands of the wrong people. You know, like, let’s let’s be honest about this.
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, if there’s let’s just say and I think that’s a concern for everybody giving money to charity. It’s certainly a concern for me in general. Yeah. But if there’s a church, the church of the nativity, the one that the IDF shot people in, I’ve been there and it’s kind of falling apart. And I remember thinking, where are the Christians around the world to support the church of the nativity on the site where Jesus, their Savior, was born?
SPEAKER: Indeed. And that’s why, you know, if you would—
TUCKER CARLSON: I just don’t understand that.
SPEAKER: You know, I don’t understand that either. But let me tell you something like, you know, an example, like how charity starts at home. You know, we know that the our king here in Jordan, King Abdullah, has donated substantial amount of money to the repair of the nativity and the holy sepulchre. And the same thing happened also partially also with the Palestinian authority. And also there are money that came also from partners from Europe and other places as well.
But you know, the amount of money, as you said, like, you know, and the charity that you think that could be given to the Christian community to enforce and, you know, maintain its presence in the Holy Land, you you don’t see that in in ways that you could imagine that sisters and brothers in Christ, siblings in Christ around the world would be giving to their church.
The Hashemite Custodianship
TUCKER CARLSON: I think Americans watching this may be confused to hear that a Muslim king of Jordan—
SPEAKER: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: Is giving money to Christian holy sites—
SPEAKER: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: In Israel and the West Bank. Yeah. Tell us how that arrangement works. Why would that be a Muslim king’s responsibility?
SPEAKER: Yeah. So there’s something here in Holy Land has been for a long time what we call the status quo or the existing reality, especially on holy sites. On Haram Sharif, many people in the West call it Temple Mount, and also in the Holy Sepulchre and the holy sites in Jerusalem. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is the place where Jesus’ tomb—
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, which is the church of the resurrection, what we call in Arabic as well, Keniset al Qiyami.
SPEAKER: So for a long time, the king of Jordan, under the Hashemite custodianship of holy sites, the king personally is the custodian of holy sites of Christian and Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem.
TUCKER CARLSON: So the king of Jordan is the custodian of both Al Aqsa Mosque and of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
SPEAKER: That’s correct.
TUCKER CARLSON: And that remains the case today?
SPEAKER: That remains the case today, and it will remain for a long time. Even though it’s extremely difficult for Jordanians to go the twenty-five miles over there to Jerusalem.
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s correct.
SPEAKER: So I think, you know, like people like myself and the heads of churches, as well as Al Awqaf and the sheikhs in Jerusalem, we will be the manifestation of the reality of the custodianship.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s just so interesting. Why does that persist today? And is that a good arrangement, the status quo that you described?
SPEAKER: Of course, it is. It’s not only good, but I think for us, it saves the character of Jerusalem where the three faiths, both Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, can exist side by side without any problems.
TUCKER CARLSON: Wouldn’t it be easier just to hand the custodianship over to the government that runs it, which is the Israeli government? Its political capital’s in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: That will be partial, and it will be exclusive.
TUCKER CARLSON: How do you think Christian holy sites would do? Muslim holy sites would do?
SPEAKER: You know, we have, let me give you an example where, you know, like the Holy Sepulchre, for different reasons, we, for a long time, during Holy Saturday, which is the Holy Fire, one of the most sacred days in the Christian calendar.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Of course, this is the night before Easter.
SPEAKER: Yes. You know, the restrictions that the police there enforce on pilgrims is unprecedented. You know, it’s something that, you know, we always plead, please, you know, let the pilgrims come and enjoy.
TUCKER CARLSON: Now this is happening?
SPEAKER: Now this is happening every year. Now, yes, of course. Last year—
Restrictions on Christian Worship
TUCKER CARLSON: So just to be clear, the Israeli government is preventing Christians from celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: Yes, they are preventing Christians and pilgrims from celebrating Easter, and the claim is, according to the police, are for safety reasons. But we’re telling them, like, for almost—next, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built in three hundred something. Okay? Now that’s seventeen hundred years ago. And we have always celebrated the Holy Fire. We always celebrated and welcomed Easter. We didn’t hear of somebody get burnt or somebody got stabbed.
TUCKER CARLSON: Killed.
SPEAKER: They’re not terrorists.
TUCKER CARLSON: Indeed.
SPEAKER: And then, but you know, now under the kind of Israeli law for safety procedures, they are restricting the number of Christians going into the holy sepulchre. Instead of ten thousand, they are restricting that sometimes to fifteen hundred. And by negotiation, you can get them close to like three thousand. This is by miracle, you know, if you get if you’re lucky.
Now, again, you know, for them, for the to be to be fair, they’re saying that for safety reasons, we’re not allowing people in. And this is the discussion every other—
TUCKER CARLSON: Are there similar restrictions on Jewish religious observances in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: In Israel, generally, have been some. There have been an incident in the north in Meiron where people, like Hasidic community, celebrating a very famous holy site. Yes. And the bridge collapsed and one hundred and fifty people died. And since that time, they were restricting more and more public worship.
And I will tell you an incident as well, you know, like we’re on the Mount of Tabor, which is the transfiguration mountain that the Holy Orthodox, the Orthodox Church celebrates every year. Also, have been restrictions there because of safety not to allow pilgrims to go to the holy mountain for the celebration of transfiguration. This is the fourth year in a row that they’re not allowed to pilgrims to go up for the celebration, again, under safety restrictions.
TUCKER CARLSON: Have there been in your lifetime safety problems with Christians celebrating Easter in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: No. Not to my knowledge.
Ambassador Huckabee and American Support
TUCKER CARLSON: So the US ambassador to Israel, Mike Huckabee, is a Christian minister. Yeah. What has he done to help Christians celebrate Easter in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: We are in touch with the American Embassy, and we are also trying to kind of ask Huckabee and also the staff in the embassy to help the Christian community talk to Israel in order to enlarge the numbers of people who celebrate Easter. You know, sometimes they are successful in raising the numbers, sometimes they are not successful. But again, the issue, again, this is an internal matter.
TUCKER CARLSON: Have you spoke—right. But our ambassador is very involved in internal matters in—
SPEAKER: Of course.
TUCKER CARLSON: Have you spoken to Ambassador Huckabee?
SPEAKER: Greeted him from afar, you know, but, you know, other heads of churches have spoken to him. Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: But you he hasn’t called you?
SPEAKER: He hasn’t called me personally. No.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s that’s—have American politicians called since the US is funding a lot of this? Have American politicians, Christian politicians called to ask you what they can do to help Christians in Jerusalem?
SPEAKER: You know, we reach out. They reach out. You know, they especially like, you know, talking about different issues. Like, let me give you an example. You know, I’m trying to kind of get to my hospital in Gaza, for example. Yes. And I’m trying to kind of get permission to go there, but I’m not allowed.
TUCKER CARLSON: To go to your hospital in Gaza?
SPEAKER: Yes.
TUCKER CARLSON: Why?
SPEAKER: You see, I have an Israeli citizenship because I come from Nazareth. So, I’m an Israeli citizen.
TUCKER CARLSON: You are an Israeli.
SPEAKER: Well, yes. You know, at the same time, so basically, I’m not allowed in according to their calculations.
TUCKER CARLSON: Why?
SPEAKER: So we tried to ask, you know, the kind of our friends from the American embassy and other places, you know, in order to intervene. But the answer is no.
TUCKER CARLSON: So Huckabee hasn’t helped you get to your Christian hospital in Gaza?
SPEAKER: I don’t blame Huckabee for this, you know, but again ambassador.
TUCKER CARLSON: No, I know. You have to be diplomatic. I just I’m just surprised that someone who, you know, is a minister isn’t doing more for Christians in this region.
SPEAKER: Yeah, again, but again, it’s about my safety, I guess.
TUCKER CARLSON: Your safety. Would you feel unsafe going to Gaza?
SPEAKER: Absolutely not. I’ve been to Gaza many, many times. And actually, two days before the war, I was there with bishops. We visited the hospital and I would visit—I’ve been trying to visit the hospital. Others were successful, like other heads of churches managed to go there, both patriarchs, but I haven’t, unfortunately.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a Christian hospital.
SPEAKER: It’s an Anglican Episcopal Christian hospital.
TUCKER CARLSON: What is the name of it?
# Christian Life Under Israeli Rule
Al Ahli Arab hospital. What kind of condition is it in?
It is now kind of in a condition that operates on minimal capacity. I don’t know. I’m sure that people have been following. I don’t know how many people know about this, but it was hit at least eight times during the war.
It was bombed eight times?
Yeah.
Why?
You know, there are different accusations why it happened. You know, I kind of suspect, you know, suspicious suspicion about like activities in the hospital. And every time we asked for people to kind of prove, you know, what was happening there so that we at least know what is going on in our hospital. But every time we hear nothing. You know, unfortunately—
Were people killed in those bombings?
No. And on two incidents, there’ve been two big explosions. The first one happened only two weeks after the or even less than two weeks from the beginning. On the seventeenth of October 2023, where a huge rocket fell and it became like really controversy.
Israel accused Islamic Jihad for a misrocketed missile. You know, in Gaza, they said, no, it was Israeli rocket that came in. And there were two narratives at that time. Anyway, but this is the kind of thing that we have.
Do we know the answer now?
No, I don’t know the answer. People ask me and I said, do I look like a soldier to you that to tell you what happened there?
Well, it’s your government. You were born in the country and you can’t get a straight answer about your hospital?
No. No. It was answer their answer was that, you know, it was a mislocated missile.
But it was bombed seven more times?
Yeah.
Do we know who did that?
No. The other ones, you know, Israelis did that. They didn’t comment on that.
Did they not know it was a hospital?
They knew it was a hospital.
Why would they bomb a hospital, a Christian hospital?
Again, know, but as I said, you know, they say when they do that that there is suspicion of terrorist activities in the hospital.
The Death Toll in Gaza
How many people have been killed in Gaza?
Now we know that, you know, I think I had I just read recently that even the government admitted that there’s seventy thousand who were killed, which they didn’t before. But I I need to kind of again, my sources are not kind of one hundred percent, but at least from our perspective, we have heard and we have seen that there are seventy thousand people who were killed. Many of them are children and women, not terrorists according to Israeli categories.
Do we have any idea what percentage were women and children?
You know, there are statistics out there, but I’m sure the vast majority are women and children.
Is it possible to know who can go to Gaza? At some point, I think it’s fair to ask like what happened over the last couple of years in Gaza. Are we ever going to know?
You know, like, you know, I’m sure that we will know in one way or the other. But again, I think the catastrophe that happened there, nothing will heal. I just kind of just by seeing the amount of destruction and death that happened there, it just breaks one’s heart. There are no words.
Again, you know, I’m sure that people will know like who did it and why they did it and how did it come. And, you know, but for us, you know, the bottom line, there are people who are suffering, there are people who are dying, and that’s the result of violence, you know, which devastating for us.
Daily Life as a Christian in Israel
How are you treated in Israel?
Depending on where you live, where you are, where you’re walking. So I think in many places in Israel, you are respected. There’s freedom of movement. I can go in most places. There are places that are restricted to any civilian, if you know what I mean.
Yes.
But, you know, in general, I can go in many places. You know, if I’m walking in the old city, for example, if I’m in my suit, all good and well, you know, of course, the mosaic is so beautiful there, people living together, walking together, you would enjoy the souk.
But sometimes if I’m wearing my cross and my cassock, I could be treated differently by some groups.
How are you treated?
I could maybe could spat at, for example.
Has someone ever spit at you?
Yes.
Really?
Yeah.
More than once?
More than once. Yeah.
Why?
I just I think, you know, I asked this question why. And in many cases, I have seen that, you know, like in many schools in the Jewish sector who have this is the answer that I received, who have bad flashes of memories, of persecution. The cross reminds them of persecution and expulsion and what have you.
So they’re teaching their children that the cross is a sign of persecution and spit on—
Yeah. And, you know, we know that there are so many, not many, but there are some. And these are fringe groups that we have, as heads of churches, spoke about when there’s vandalism of churches, when there is spitting at clergy, when there is doing nasty things to clergy.
What kind of nasty things?
And I’ve kind of said that on the air. I don’t know what to say, but they’re doing like really shameful things, you know, in front of church doors.
Really?
Yeah, yeah. I’ve caught on camera many times.
Oh, you act like this everyone knows this. I don’t think many people in America know this to Christian churches and Christian clergy.
Yeah. And again, you know, these are like fringe groups of people who are radicals, you know, who live in Jerusalem. Their main mission is to purify Jerusalem from infidels, Christians. That’s their mission. And they say it out loud. It’s on their website. You know, it’s nothing hiding about it.
Are you talking about Al Qaeda or—
No, no. I’m talking about Jewish radical groups, settler groups, yeah.
Do you face vandalism from Islamic groups in Jerusalem?
No. Not to my knowledge. No. We don’t have—
We don’t have in Jerusalem?
Yes. No.
Radicalism and the Law
So in the United States after nine eleven, we were told, and I think it was true, that there were these madrasas, these schools, Islamic schools that were producing radicalism, true radicalism against the infidel, Christians and Jews. It sounds like something similar is going on in Jerusalem now, and you’re the target of it. Can you talk? I mean, that’s clearly bad. Can you is there anyone you can talk to about this?
Yeah. We’ve talked to the police. We’ve talked to the government. And there are restrictions. Know, the one thing about, you know, this, you know, we were said that told, you know, that spitting on people is not a charge.
Now we need to have a law that forbids this or there will be a kind of punishment to somebody who spits or something like that. So there’s no law. So the people brought, if you press charges, they bring them in and they’re released the next day.
There’s no law in Israel against spitting on Christians?
No, on spitting in general, not on Christians, you know, like—
But you can walk up and spit in someone’s face for religious reasons.
No, that’s something different. And the spitting doesn’t happen like, you know, directly at you. So like if I’m passing—
Yeah.
And they would be spitting like in front of you, like but it’s directed to you, but not on you person. They don’t touch you. They don’t touch you.
How common is that?
I don’t know. I don’t have statistics, but—
No. In your experience, you live there.
Well, quite often, know, like it happens. You know, I don’t say on daily basis, but you know, it happens quite often. Even an Israeli channel did actually one time a kind of a secret investigation and they dressed somebody in a catholic with a cross and they walked into the old city with hidden cameras.
And, you know, they they they caught one, like, right right there on camera. And then they they they spoke about it in in Israeli channels.
Good for them.
Yeah. Of course. Know, they they they name some sometimes quite often, they they name things. But, again, nothing happens. That’s problem, like, you know. And that’s why we have insisted on talking about reconciliation and building trust within the community.
You know, calling the rabbis and, you know, the imams and the Christian leaders, you know, to teach their children about tolerance, about acceptance, and to refrain from incitement, you know, and exclusion and alienation and demonizing the other.
No, Jerusalem is such a beautiful place. It’s a sacred place.
Yes, it is.
But we have, you know, like groups. And talking about, you know, extremists, you know, like in every religion there is extremists.
Of course.
And then we’re not saying that, you know, like only one. Our Christian history is not, you know, like neither clear or pure of—
We’ve had some Christian extremists for sure.
Indeed. But you know, that’s why, you know, today, I think in the twenty first century, it’s important that we reconsider a lot of our views, as religious people, how we view other people around us.
Yes.
And I wish that’s my prayer. You know, we have always said, you know, like the Holy Land, the Middle East, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived together here for centuries. This is not something that we’re to understand, how to live together or how to manage our relationships.
No, but, you know, unfortunately, I don’t want to kind of accuse anybody, but outside forces have caused us to fight among ourselves.
I’ve noticed. Unfortunately, that’s how we—
Rising Extremism
So has the extremism in Jerusalem I mean, just to restate, you were born in in the state of Israel. You’re an Israeli citizen, so you would know. Over has it become more pronounced? Is there more extremism now, do you think?
There’s more extremism extremism, and I can see it, and it on every side. That happens. The thing that, you know, the more you have extremist group on one side, the more you have the response of other extremists on the other. So it happens all across the communities, unfortunately.
But right now, it seems like there’s no Christian extremism. I haven’t seen any Christian terrorism groups here.
I wouldn’t say like terrorist groups Christian, but, you know, there are some who have extremist views.
Yes.
We see pockets coming up every now and then.
I’m sure.
But we as heads of churches always say and talk to our children, you know, don’t forget that you are Christian and you have to abide by our Christian faith. You know, like any engagement in violence or military or incitement is something that does not speak about our identity or our faith.
Christians and Military Service
Do Christians serve in the IDF?
There are very, very few who do. Not many.
Why?
Why they do serve?
Why don’t they serve?
Because they—
You’re born a citizen.
They themselves as First of all, it’s not compulsory for them. So it’s not compulsory for Arab citizens of Israel to serve in the army, and therefore they don’t. But there are very few who do.
And again, you know, let’s remember that the Arabs inside Israel, they are Palestinians. By origin, at least, they are Palestinians, you know. Imagine, like, you know, I served Nablus, which is Shechem in the West Bank, I don’t know, the city in the northern part of the West Bank. And I was responsible for two congregations there. And I got married from Nablus. So my wife is Palestinian.
And imagine like, you know, if I would be like a soldier in the West Bank rather than a priest in the West Bank, how would I treat my own people? Like, it doesn’t make sense. Know, for me, it’s just to think about the matter is just kind of makes me, I don’t know, faint maybe.
Violence in the West Bank
What’s happening? A lot of attention in the United States has been paid to Gaza, some attention. What’s happening in the West Bank?
In the West Bank, I think, you know, and we have seen over the past few weeks especially, and actually not only a few weeks, you know, during even during the war, the escalation of violence of settlers in the West Bank has risen drastically. And not only to kind of Muslim neighborhoods and villages, but also to Christian villages.
Really?
Yeah.
Can you give me an example?
Yeah, I can give you an example of The two recent examples is one in the town of Tybee, where actually you mentioned Ambassador Hakabi, he himself went there to visit the village after these attacks of settlers burning and graffiti on walls and going into these farms to harass farmers who are Christian.
And recently also in Birzeit near Ramallah, where we had an attack of settlers on a woman, they hit her with a stolen head and and then they arrested her son after that.
Why did they arrest her son?
Cause he tried to defend her, like, his mother. And because of that, you know, he he was arrested.
And these are Christians?
Yeah. Yeah. He’s Christian.
How many US administration officials weighed in on this?
Did Ambassador Huckabee say anything about this?
No. He definitely said something about Taybeh. I haven’t seen anything about the last incident, but he went there in person actually and visited the police. But the most recent attack where a Christian woman was attacked by settlers with a rock to the head and her son was arrested for trying to defend her, Ambassador Huckabee hasn’t said anything about that.
I didn’t see anything myself, but he could—
You would know since you’re the Archbishop in Jerusalem, I think. I’m sorry. I just want to be very clear about his shameful anti-Christian behavior. I just want to be very clear about what I’m saying. What Ambassador Huckabee is doing is shameful, and he’s going to have to answer for it.
So that’s my opinion. You don’t have to ratify that, but it’s shocking to me.
Why Attacks Are Accelerating
So more broadly, why would these attacks be accelerating? Why would there be more attacks now?
I think the less the IDF and the Israeli government persecutes those who do these shameful actions, which I called evil and sin, actually. Of course. The more they do. That’s the norm, unfortunately.
Let me just close by contrasting your experience in your country, Israel, where you live, with the experience in Jordan. Are there attacks on Christians in Jordan?
That question makes me laugh, first of all. You know what I get? Well, in the United States, we were told that Christians are murdered in the Middle East by Muslims. This is a country run by a Muslim king. And so I’m just—it would be interesting to know how many Christians are driven off their land here.
You know, quite often, you know, I see on the TV or even in many reports, you know, many people when they see us in the streets sometimes, a few people who see us in the streets sometimes in Jerusalem or other places, they will tell us as Arabs, “Please go to Syria, go to Jordan, go to—why are you staying here?” They tell us, they ask us this question.
To you?
Yeah, to me and to others, you know, any Arab. Many people will say like, “Why are you staying here? Just go to an Arab country.”
They say that to your face?
Yeah. They would say that to my face. You know, like, honestly speaking, sometimes, you know, and I’m saying that sarcastically, of course, I think about it and I think they are right because when I come to Jordan, I feel more at home than being in other places inside my own home country, honestly.
Feeling More at Home in Jordan
How long has your family been in Jesus’ hometown of Nazareth?
I wish I had my family tree going back to the time of Jesus, but I think, you know, you remind me of a question, if I may paraphrase your question. When people tell—when I tell people that I’m Christian from Nazareth, and they tell me, “Oh, nice. This is really cool. So when were you converted?” So I tell them two thousand years ago. That’s my answer.
Like, you know, come on, Christianity started in places like the baptism site here, like Bethlehem, like Nazareth where the angel appeared to Mary. Jesus is from Nazareth. He is from Nazareth. Mary is from Nazareth. But, you know, so it’s ignorance. Again, it’s ignorance. And sometimes it’s deliberate, intentional ignorance even. It’s all pretty amazing.
Does that happen to you when you’re in Jordan? Because there are, of course, holy sites here. We’re at one right now.
You know, again, I said like, I feel blessed where I am when I travel in my own diocese. I go to Lebanon, I come here to Jordan, my other home. I’m also a Jordanian. I consider myself a Jordanian citizen by virtue of being responsible in this place for my community.
But honestly speaking, like, whenever I come to this place, Jordan, Lebanon even, I feel like, you know, this is my home. I feel myself fulfilled because I know that I’m free in this country. I can be myself without worrying that I would be spat at or—
But Jordan is ninety-eight percent Muslim?
Yes.
But you feel freer here?
I feel, yeah, of course. This point in time, yes, I do feel free.
A Message to Christians in the United States
Do you have a message to Christians in the United States?
I have a message, yes, to say that, you know, my dear sisters and brothers in Christ and in humanity, I want you to think about these places as treasures. These places—Jordan, Palestine, you know, the Galilee inside what is Israel today—these are places that actually embraced the descent and the incarnation of our faith as Christians.
We need to preserve these places. We need to support the people here. Not only Christians. I’m not saying that we need to be only looking at Christians, but supporting people who live here because your support ensures the character of these places to be a safe home for all the people who live here, whether they are Jews, Christians, Muslims. That’s right. Because we are all God’s children. We have been living together here for a long time.
And please, I just want to say a small example. If you want to pray for whoever your heart loves, okay, please don’t divide us by your prayers. Don’t further divide us by your prayers. We want you to pray for all the people of the Holy Land.
Thank you, Archbishop. I appreciate it.
Thank you very much.
Prominent Christian Families in Jordan
So thank you for doing this. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to you was even I was amazed to discover how many prominent, like truly prominent Christian families there are in Jordan. A lot, and you’re from one of the most prominent. What’s it like to be a Christian in an overwhelmingly Muslim country here?
Well, you know, Christians here in Jordan have always felt, you know, really one and the same with the Muslims in Jordan, and it goes back thousands of years, really, Tucker. So it’s always felt like we’re really one and the same. Islam is very much an integral part of our culture as Christians here. Yeah. We feel very comfortable here.
As Christians.
Absolutely.
So you went to school, a number of very prominent schools in the United States. You spent a lot of time living in the US, so you know that most Americans are going to be surprised to hear that.
Oh, of course. I mean, you know, a lot of my American friends, when I first met them, they were surprised that, you know, I’m Christian from Jordan. And I’m like, what do you mean? I mean, this is where Christianity started. Right? We are the ancient Christians.
Yes. It’s a bit upsetting for me.
Jesus was baptized right there.
Right here. I mean, this is a very special place, the baptism site. It’s very close to our hearts as Christians, not just here, but all over the world.
The Baptism Site and the Holy Trinity
Can you say a little bit something about this site because we’re here at—
Yeah. So this baptism site, I mean, what most Christians around the world maybe sometimes forget is here we have the clearest manifestation in the Bible of the Holy Trinity right here, Tucker, where you and I are today. You know, if you remember from the Bible, the voice of God. Yes. And he said, you know, this is when Jesus was being baptized by Saint John, “This is my son of whom I am well pleased,” I think.
Yes.
And then the son, right, the Holy Spirit—
Descends in the shape of a dove.
This happened here, and Christ’s official mission, right, started in Jordan. So you can actually make the claim. This is not, you know, this is a biblical theological claim that the mission of Christianity, salvation history started right here. So of course, there are Christians in Jordan. And it’s just a very special place to be here. I hope you’ve had some time to—
I’ve had an amazing time. I’ve been to this country before, and I’ve always felt comfortable here. And if you say that in the West, people are either incredulous or they accuse you of being a secret Muslim or jihadi or something, which I’m not at all.
But I’m really struck that you said Islam is an integral part of the culture for Christians here. What does that mean?
Islam and Christianity: Similar Faith Traditions
Look, the faith traditions are so similar. It’s remarkable. I mean, you know, if you look at the Quran, for example, Jesus was mentioned twenty-five plus times in the Quran, and he was mentioned under different words, different names. So Isa is his name in Arabic. The Word of God, that’s actually from the Quran. The Messiah, al-Masih. That’s also Ibn Maryam, son of Mary.
The other thing that you might find interesting is also the Virgin Mary. Right? I mean, she was mentioned thirty plus times in the Quran. She’s revered. Right? Actually, she was the only woman whose name was actually mentioned in the Quran. No other name of a woman has—
Really?
Absolutely. Mary’s is the only name that’s named by name in the Quran as a woman.
As the mother of Jesus?
As the mother of Jesus. There is a whole chapter in the Quran just dedicated for the Virgin Mary. So you can see and, of course, the same prophets—many of the same prophets, Elijah or Moses or Abraham or, you know, they’re in the Quran as they are in the New Testament and the Old Testament.
So the faith traditions are very similar. So that’s why the Muslims are actually very accepting of the Christian faith traditions. They are encompassing of the Christian faith traditions. So, yeah, I mean—
And you’re saying this as a Christian?
I’m saying this as a Christian here in Jordan. Absolutely.
I’m at a disadvantage because I have not read the Quran. But we have been taught for twenty-five years since nine-eleven that Islam is inherently hostile to Christianity, but you don’t believe it.
I totally disagree with that. I think hostility is, you know, is a human thing. Yes. You know, you find humans on all sides of the spectrum that are, you know, compassionate or hostile. That’s a common thing across humanity, across the world.
But to demonize one religion to say everyone in that religion is hostile is an atrocity, Tucker. It’s absolutely not true.
I agree with you.
No Discrimination as a Christian
Did you experience discrimination growing up here as a Christian?
Never. I’ve never felt discriminated against as a Christian. Of course, there’s people that don’t sometimes understand Christian religious tradition, and there are sometimes questions, and there are sometimes theological, of course, differences. And, you know, you can have a discussion about that and argue about that. Right?
But discrimination in terms of, you know, I feel at a disadvantage to be a Christian here, absolutely not. No.
So your family, I think I understand this, is at the level of prominence that you’re going to have to deal with the government at certain—
Yes. Yeah. Okay. Of course. Yeah. This is a small country. It’s a monarchy.
You’ve never had any problems dealing with the government as a Christian.
No. No. Actually, that’s a great question. So Christians are very well represented here, as you can imagine. They’re really part of the social fabric of the economy and the political environment. So Christians are represented, you know, in the senate, in parliament, in government, in the military, in the private sector, even though we are a minority. Right? But the representation is everywhere across the board.
Minority. Right? We are, like, probably two, three percent at this stage. I’m just guessing, but it seems like if you’re two or three percent of the population, you seem disproportionately represented among the affluent.
Possibly. I think maybe minorities everywhere around the world. That’s the case.
Yes. It is. Actually, that is true. You think about it. Right? But I don’t know. I’ve never measured that. I don’t know if there are statistics. But that’s never been a problem, I guess. You do see minority groups around the world, as you said. You know, the Indians in Uganda in the seventies or name a group, but the minority group often is disproportionately successful, and then they are persecuted for that.
Right.
And that has not happened here.
No. No. Absolutely not.
Why Jordan Is a Model for Coexistence
And there’s a reason I think why it is—I mean, I was thinking about sort of why is Jordan a special sort of model for that, right, of coexistence, of interfaith harmony. I think there’s three things, Tucker. And if these three things are there, you know, Christian minorities in the Holy Land, they will thrive.
Number one is we have constitutional rights as equal citizens. It’s in the Jordanian constitution. You know? So Christians and Muslims here have the same rights, complete equality. When it comes to even matters relating to Christian affairs, whether it’s marriages and, you know, even some civil affairs, there are Christian courts that are different from the sharia courts that there are for Muslims.
So there’s in that sense, there’s, you know, this sort of coexistence. But when it comes to, of course, civil and commercial and all of those kinds of laws, those apply to all of us equally here in Jordan. So constitutional rights are protected. That’s number one.
So Christianity is an official religion here.
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, there’s in the constitution, there’s freedom of worship, freedom of religion in the constitution. So very importantly, if you want to protect Christian minorities or any minority in that regard anywhere in the world, constitutional rights have to be established. And they’re established here. They were established here from the very start. Right? You know, when the Jordanian tribes and the Hashemites agreed to form the constitution, they’ve been there since then. So I would say that’s the first thing.
The second thing, which I really think is important, is stability. Yeah. Right? And the moment you don’t have stability, the first to suffer are the minorities.
Are the weak, of course.
# How Christians Thrive in Jordan
Are the weak. And, you know, stability is so important. Economic stability, political stability, security stability. And that’s why it’s so sacred, actually, to ensure that there is stability in the region. I would say the last thing is leadership.
You know? We’re very fortunate here to have, you know, his majesty king of the land, the Hashemite leadership. I mean, truly, really tremendously fortunate because the Hashemites have always been about interfaith dialogue, discourse, meritocracy, compassion, mercy. So I think when you have, you know, great leadership, stability, and constitutional rights, yeah, a Christian minority can thrive, and that’s what we have here.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s part and my job is not to talk of Jordan, but I’ve always wondered in all of your neighbors. I’ve spent time in all of your neighboring countries always say the same thing. How do you have this country with really no energy resources? It’s not inherently rich. Yeah. Absorb all these refugees from the creation of Israel in 1948. I mean, enormous number. And then lose a huge part of its territory in 1967, absorb more refugees, and then absorb still more refugees through the years, including from the civil war in Syria, and now apparently are being pushed to absorb still more refugees from Gaza. I don’t think any country’s ever been under this kind of pressure. This is for the outsider perspective anyway. How do you stay stable in the middle of all of that?
SPEAKER: That’s a great question. I honestly, Tucker, I ask myself that all the time. And I think, you know, part of the answer is just the culture. The culture here, it’s a very collectivist culture. It’s a very tribal culture. You know, for example, the latest immigration of Syrian refugees, we had, I think, up to 1.5 million Syrian refugees during the Arab Spring.
TUCKER CARLSON: This is a small country, isn’t it?
SPEAKER: Yeah. That’s on a pro rata basis. It’s like 40 million people moving into the US overnight. Right? And that’s the scale of the—
TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, can you imagine 40 million people, all of Canada moving into the US looking for jobs? I’m laughing, but—
SPEAKER: And I should say for people who don’t follow this because it’s a boutique question. There’s a lot going on in the world, but this is interesting to me. This is all because of your geographic location. It’s like, you didn’t ask for this. You just happen to be surrounded by these larger powers that decide they can use your country as like a place to store the products of their wars.
Jordan as a Refuge for Displaced Populations
SPEAKER: Yeah. I mean, it’s because it’s stable. So we, you know, people say, you know, just move it to Jordan and let them deal with it. And to be honest, it’s been difficult because the host community, the Jordanians, I mean, they’ve had to share resources with the refugees. They’ve had to share jobs. You know? We have very limited resources, as you said, Tucker, be the financial water resources, energy resources, you know.
TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve sidetracked my own question. So the original question was, how do you absorb more refugees over the past eighty years than you have people? A lot more and not fall apart?
SPEAKER: Look, a lot of it is, again, Hashemite leadership. It’s taking care of the refugees, using our limited resources to support them. And, my understanding is we especially with the last sort of Syrian refugees, we had a lot of support from the international community in the beginning. But over times, you know, there’s donor fatigue over time.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Tucker, you know, the news moves on.
SPEAKER: Right. And then the host community is stuck with the problem, and then we have to depend on our own resources. And obviously, a lot of it is just honestly us. It’s local tax revenue, government support. We of course, we do get some support still from international donors from the US government, from other places around the world. So we’re grateful for that. But, yeah, it’s tempting to let the host community deal with this problem because sort of the news cycle has moved on to something else, and that’s a problem.
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a question I’m interested in because from the Americans’ perspective, our country feels swamped with refugees. But no country maybe in history has been as swamped by refugees as yours. So it’s just interesting to see how you’ve handled it.
SPEAKER: Yeah. No. I mean, I think people feel very much like, you know, the refugees coming in here, there’s this moral sort of, you know, understanding that we have to take care of our own.
The Historical Tradition of Refuge in Jordan
And just to give you a story maybe from Jordan’s history, if you want to go back even to the time of the earliest Christians, right? Because where the ancient Christians are, so we remember these stories. One of the Christian holy sites here in Jordan is called Pella. I don’t know if you know about Pella. So that was a city in the old Roman Decapolis, right? The ten cities.
TUCKER CARLSON: The ten cities. They’re referred to in the New Testament.
SPEAKER: They’re referred to in the New Testament. Exactly. So Pella is in Jordan. It’s a beautiful site. It’s well preserved. That was the site of the first Christian refugees coming out of Jerusalem, you know, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD by general Titus.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.
SPEAKER: You know, all of the Christians moved to Pella, actually. It’s technically, arguably, right, according to archaeology, the first Christian refugee haven, and that’s in Jordan. And I think this is, this has been our history.
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s I did not know that.
SPEAKER: Yeah. We’re the land of refugees. We are very much the land of refugees. And, yeah, that’s a nice story. And it’s the same when with the Iraq. And I think when we when we talk about, you know, the Iraqi refugees as well a while back, Muslim and Christian moved here.
And going back to sort of the point on stability, Tucker, so, you know, when you have there was US intervention, as you recall, in Iraq at the time—
TUCKER CARLSON: I do recall that. Yes.
SPEAKER: Yeah. I heard about that. At the time of Saddam Hussein. And then the thing is whenever you lose, whenever sort of there is a vacuum, that vacuum is always filled. And sometimes it’s filled with, you know, bad elements. So Al Qaeda filled that vacuum in Iraq after 2003. And then you had which then, of course, later became ISIS, right, down the line.
So all of a sudden, you had Muslim and Christians who were targeted. A lot of them came into Jordan. And, you know, I know a priest. He specializes in really taking care of the especially both Muslim and Christian refugees, by the way. There’s no selectivity there. They are here temporarily. They see themselves as being here temporarily until they can immigrate to other parts of the world.
So they get receive financial assistance, schooling. A lot of it is provided either by the state or even fundraised by the churches, the local churches, until they are able to immigrate to other parts of the world where there’s more economic prosperity and stability and jobs.
Access to Christian Holy Sites
TUCKER CARLSON: So you’re a Christian. You are twenty five miles away from the most famous and important church in Christendom, and you’ve been one time in fifty years?
SPEAKER: Yeah. I need, I mean, obviously, it’s first of all, I can’t just go there. I need the visa as a Jordanian. It’s something that you you have to apply for.
TUCKER CARLSON: And how hard is it to get?
SPEAKER: Yeah. It’s a process and you have to apply. It’s, I can’t recall how difficult it was to get the visa at the time, but also, you know, there’s some security considerations.
TUCKER CARLSON: What does that mean? I mean, I, you know, you you see what’s happening there now. How comfortable would Christians be or non Christians even visiting the holy sites now in—
I’m totally confused. Those holy sites don’t belong to the state of Israel, which is a political entity of very recent creation. Those holy sites are the center of our religion. They long predate by thousands of years the creation of the state of Israel. So why wouldn’t Christians, any Christian have a right to visit his own church?
SPEAKER: Yeah. I agree. It’s not—
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s my perspective as the person who’s paying for all this. So I agree with you.
SPEAKER: I think I think there’s an angle I’d like to focus on here. Yeah. So, you know, the Hashemites are the very much the custodians of the Christian and the Muslim sites in Jerusalem. I think maybe that if you allow me, Tucker, I think that’s something that people don’t realize is that a lot of the restoration work that happens there is very much funded personally by the king. I mean, tomb of Jesus Christ in the Holy Sepulchre was restored by personal donations from King Abdullah. It says something—
TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, what? Absolutely, yeah.
The Muslim King Who Restored Jesus’s Tomb
SPEAKER: The tomb of Jesus was restored by the Muslim king of Jordan? Yeah. I mean, there’s the king of Jordan—
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s kind of a surprise ending to the story, I have to say.
SPEAKER: Don’t think he’s a direct descendant of the prophet Muhammad. Right? And he’s the one restoring the tomb of Jesus Christ. And I think that’s this interfaith story.
TUCKER CARLSON: That’s that’s true?
SPEAKER: It is true. There’s another story on the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I think it’s, I mean, it shows you just how old these traditions are in the region and how welcoming it used to be to people from all across all faiths, be they Jewish or Christian or Muslim, right, in the past.
So since, I think, a thousand years ago, since Salahdin or Saladin, right?
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.
SPEAKER: The keys to the church of the Holy Sepulchre, okay, did not belong to any of the Christian denominations because they couldn’t agree amongst themselves, the Armenian, the Orthodox, the Catholic Ethiopian, yeah. Ethiopian, like who’s going to have the key to the church, right?
And actually, that key was handed to, at the time, Salahdin. And even today, those keys are handed to a Muslim family. It’s, I think, the Nsebe family of Jerusalem. They opened the church in the morning, you know, and they closed the church at night.
So that’s the kind of sort of, I mean, these are the stories we grew up with as Christians in the region, as Muslims in the region, even as Arab Jews, right, from the region. This is sort of the faith and the common faith and cultural tradition we grew up with here. So a lot of the stuff that we see today is very new. These are lines drawn in the sand by colonial powers that really sort of destroyed that social cohesion and the social fabric that existed here.
Jerusalem: From Holy City to Government Garrison
TUCKER CARLSON: My complete outsider perspective at the time when the official capital of the state of Israel moved from Tel Aviv, a city of recent creation, to Jerusalem, a city that, as noted, long predates the state of Israel, was that Jerusalem changed from an international holy site to a kind of government garrison run by a city state, run by a nation state. And that’s probably not good for the Christians. Do you think that’s—
SPEAKER: Yeah. I think Jerusalem belongs to all people. Right? It surely doesn’t belong to Bibi. It’s not his. He didn’t make it. None of those buildings was built by the government of Israel. Sorry. So but now it kind of feels like it belongs to Bibi. Is that it might again, this is my perspective from thousands of miles away. But—
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I mean, this is this is a city that belongs to all people around the world. This is a holy city, especially people of the Abrahamic religions, as we say. Right?
I mean, another story on that is, I mean, my grandfather, he was a, he was a merchant from Salt. He started—
TUCKER CARLSON: Where is that?
SPEAKER: It’s actually sort of used to be the old capital here in Jordan. It’s very close to here, very close to Amman as well. It’s an old city as well, Ottoman city, but also Roman city. Originally, world is saltous, anyway, Roman city.
But, he used to, he started the trade between salt and Jerusalem when he was thirteen years old. At the time, it was, again, Ottoman Empire, you could move around. Right? Damascus and Beirut and Jerusalem, and that’s what the merchants used to do.
I remember, and he said and I asked him, what was it like? And the first merchant he met in Jerusalem, the first, you know, products he acquired and sold in Salt was in Jerusalem. I’m like, what was it like, you know, when you visited there? This is in the thirties—
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.
SPEAKER: The 1930s or late twenties, I’m guessing. He said, look. It’s, it’s amazing. I’m like, what do you mean? I’m like, well, you know, there were, the Muslims and the Jews and the Christians together, in the streets playing backgammon, you know, just one community, and you can’t tell the difference. You can’t tell the difference.
And, yeah, that’s what they thought. They’re all Arabs. Most of them were Arabs at the time. Right? That’s sort of the Jerusalem I hear about. That’s the Jerusalem I remember. That’s the Jerusalem that I think all of us long for is, you know, a united Jerusalem, one that’s united for all faiths and, you know, the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims. And I think I hope I’m grateful that we will get there one day, Tucker.
The Reality for Christians in Israel vs. Jordan
TUCKER CARLSON: It’s just interesting, and you know this because you spent so much time in the United States, that I don’t think it would enter the minds of most Americans that a Christian could be better treated here in Jordan than in Israel.
SPEAKER: I mean, I see the stories of the of how Christians are suffering in Israel, especially the Palestinian Christians. I haven’t had the unfortunate experience of going through that suffering, but yeah, don’t think it’s just the Christians. I think, you know, there’s a—
TUCKER CARLSON: The occupation is an equal opportunity.
SPEAKER: Oh, for sure. I don’t think it’s primarily the Christians.
But what makes it galling from an American perspective—I am American, I see everything through the lens of the United States and its own interest—is that America is paying for this. And America is a majority Christian country. So, I mean, we can all have different views about what our foreign policy ought to be, but I don’t think many Americans are in favor of foreign policy that oppresses their fellow Christians.
SPEAKER: I hope not. I hope not. I mean—
TUCKER CARLSON: But you see the point.
SPEAKER: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, I mean, my advice would be to the Christians that really care in the US: talk to us. Talk to the ancient Christians. You know, we’ve been here since Christ. We’re here. Don’t just listen to the DC experts. You know?
TUCKER CARLSON: So they don’t reach out to you?
SPEAKER: No. In fact, I think what I’m sharing with you today is something that’s novel. Right? This is not a narrative, I don’t think, that you hear in the US a lot.
TUCKER CARLSON: Ever.
SPEAKER: I feel shame listening to you, and I rarely feel shame, but I do feel shame listening to you that I didn’t know more about this because I am a Christian, and I think we have an obligation to know what our tax dollars do to our fellow Christians. And I just haven’t spent enough time thinking about it, and I think it’s very odd that Christians in Jordan and in Israel aren’t receiving help from Christians in the West. Do you think that?
SPEAKER: I do. I do. I think it’s odd. And going back to sort of why the Jordanian experience is unique, remember those three things—stability is one of them. If the Christians in the US and in the West, if they really cared about the minority Christian communities here in the Holy Lands, if they really do, and if they don’t, they have to really think about why they don’t.
TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I agree. And I assume most of them do. Right?
SPEAKER: And if they do, they really have to think about stability. And this is important to mention, Tucker, but possibly the most destabilizing thing happening in the region is the situation in Israel-Palestine. Without a just resolution—a just resolution for the situation of the Palestinians there—it’s just going to be even more destabilizing for communities in Palestine, in Jordan, you know, across the region.
American Foreign Policy and Regional Stability
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, how about the United States? I mean, 9/11—you know, if you believe the 9/11 report—was committed by people who are mad about American foreign policy decisions in this region right here. So, you know, you fund mass murder in Gaza and there’s no blowback to you? I think there’s probably going to be, wouldn’t you think?
SPEAKER: Yeah. I mean, look, US intervention in the region, there’s really positive stuff and there’s negative stuff, right? It’s positive when it’s economic and it’s about—
TUCKER CARLSON: Jordanians are so diplomatic.
SPEAKER: Well, it really is. It’s truthful. I really feel that. Like, you look at, for example, USAID programs in Jordan. They were so, you know, with the water infrastructure that they helped us develop here, with the education reform, you know, all that stuff. You know, job creation—that works. Right? You know, our defense cooperation, that works. Right?
But when you look at military intervention, we pay the price. Look at all the refugees that come into the country, and it has an economic cost and a social cost and a security cost and a political cost. So I’m hoping that, you know, maybe President Trump—I know he called the Department of Defense the Department of War. I really hope President Trump—I know he cares about peace—I really hope he renames it the Department of Peace and Prosperity, because if you want to have real protection of Christian communities here, you have to invest in stability, intervene peacefully, you know, economically, FDI. It’s great for the US. It’s also great for the region.
The Future of Gaza
TUCKER CARLSON: What is likely to happen in Gaza next? What happens to all the people in Gaza? I mean, it’s the genocide. Right?
SPEAKER: Yeah. And I wish I knew, Tucker.
TUCKER CARLSON: With all these redevelopment plans—I mean, obviously, I’m always hoping for order and tidiness and prosperity. I mean, I think those are all godly things. There’s nothing—those are good. But you have, I don’t know, close to two million people who are there, and they’re in the way. And clearly, there’s going to be an effort to—I don’t know what. Like, what happens to those people?
SPEAKER: And clearly, I think—that’s my personal perspective. I’m not a politician. A businessman, so I think pragmatically and morally about things. They have to stay. We have to rebuild their homes and, you know, their livelihoods, their communities. That’s the only solution, Tucker. I mean, I don’t see anyone that can accept morally, even politically, even just on a humanitarian basis, a forced expulsion of people from Gaza, from their native homeland.
TUCKER CARLSON: Of millions of people?
SPEAKER: Of millions of people. That hasn’t happened, you know, since the Second World War, so you hope it wouldn’t happen now.
TUCKER CARLSON: But do you think that might happen?
SPEAKER: I am not qualified, I think, to answer that question. All I can tell you is if it does happen on our watch, all of us are accountable for it.
TUCKER CARLSON: I agree. Yeah. I agree completely.
Why Return to Jordan?
TUCKER CARLSON: Why did you—I mean, I don’t want to say the fancy schools that you went to, but you went to prominent schools in the United States, and you could have stayed. And I’m sure all your classmates are prosperous at this point from business school. But why did you come back?
SPEAKER: I’ve always wanted to come back. US was, for me, an amazing experience studying in the US at the time. I was there mainly in the 1990s. And, you know, I owe a lot to my education in the US. It was a very meaningful experience. It felt like a lot of, at the time, this freedom of thought and expression and then ultimately conscience.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. That you can have there.
SPEAKER: Exactly. And that’s very liberating.
TUCKER CARLSON: Well, point of freedom of speech is freedom of conscience. I get to believe what I—I get to speak my values out loud. Right?
SPEAKER: Exactly. And I felt that in the US when I was there. That was a very powerful lesson, but the intention was never to stay there. This is a very collectivist society. Family here is very important. You know, community here is very important. And to want to be part of that and to give back to that and to support that and to have my family and my children grow up in that sort of collectivist environment is really more important than money or anything else, Tucker, honestly. And that’s how I’m programmed.
I’m fortunate I can say that because I could also afford to come back. You know, my father was a businessman, my grandfather was a businessman, so I could afford to come here and, you know, to explore my career journey. So some people can’t, so they optimize working in other parts of the world. So I have to be honest about that, but no regrets. I love it here.
TUCKER CARLSON: Did you have family on the other side of the river in 1948 or 1967?
SPEAKER: No. Really? We’re very much Jordanian. Always. Yeah. My family is.
TUCKER CARLSON: How many refugees did you get in 1948? Do you know?
SPEAKER: Oh, wow. I’m not on top of the figures, but I think there was a total of, at the time—I’m not sure if they all came to Jordan. There’s six, seven hundred thousand total refugees at the time. Some of them went into Palestine and Syria, a lot of them came into Jordan. So, that’s the total number if I recall, if my memory serves me correctly. I’m not sure what proportion. I think the majority came into Jordan.
Where Is This All Going?
TUCKER CARLSON: My last question is, where do you think this is all going? It seems like things are accelerating quickly. People are getting more radical. The maps are being redrawn. Huge populations are being moved around. I mean, what are we looking at here?
SPEAKER: Look, I’m scared for what’s coming. It feels like a big thing. I guess that’s what I’m—I am scared for what’s coming. There’s a lot of lack of clarity, and it feels like decisions are being made in, you know, backroom doors by who knows who. So there’s honestly, I wish I could answer that. And that’s the thing: if you want to create instability, you create insecurity because nobody knows, you know, outcomes.
I feel when it comes to Jordan, you know, we have a strong leadership here. We have strong security and defense here. We have a wise people here. I mean, you’ve seen this is one of the most resilient countries, I think, in the world. I mean, who can come up and deal with the types of things that we’ve had to dealt with over the past couple of decades? So I think, you know, we’ll find a way through it.
But my concern is also for the wider region. Right? At what cost? And my only concern, Tucker, I mean, when you have US military intervention or any kind of military intervention, if there is a vacuum, it needs to be filled. And who’s going to fill that vacuum? Right? And what comes later? What comes later might be even worse.
And I think we kind of know because we’ve had 1948—who got hurt? Well, the Christians got hurt. A lot of Muslims got hurt too, but the Christians being a minority got hurt. Then you have Israel pushing for the Iraq war. Christian population in the country just basically evaporates. Then you have Israel pushing for the overthrow of Assad in Syria. Minority religious people get hurt. Christians, not just Alawites, but lots of them, but they get crushed. Lebanon—bombed by Israel for forty years. Christian population diminishes. So like, I see a theme here. Do you?
SPEAKER: Yeah. There’s clearly a theme. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s an anti-Christian theme.
TUCKER CARLSON: I think it is. I think it is because what it means to be Christian is if you really think about it, you know, the most radical thing that Jesus taught us is love. And if something does not stem out of love, is it really Christian?
SPEAKER: No.
TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. And a lot of what’s happening is the furthest thing away imaginable from love that I can imagine at this stage, Tucker. So, yeah, it doesn’t feel very Christian to me.
TUCKER CARLSON: Good luck.
SPEAKER: Thanks, man. Thank you.
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