Transcript: Tucker Confronts Ted Cruz on His Support for Regime Change in Iran

We tried to pressure him out of all. Yeah, I’m not aware of.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just saying there’s a lot of pressure coming from various parts of the US Government on that government. And it’s still there. Yeah, same. The country of your ancestors, Cuba, you know, 1959. We’ve been working on that. Hasn’t worked. So it’s. It’s. I think we both agree it’s hard to do.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It absolutely is hard. And look, I think you’re reasonable to ask, how do we produce that? And I think there’s a distinction between what your objective is and the means to get it. There are all sorts of things. I would say we would be better off. We’d be better off in China without Xi there. Should we invade China and topple Xi? Of course not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Better off with no national debt. You know, there are lots of things.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But it’s good to say, all right, what are our objectives? So with the ayatollah in Iran saying you’re for regime change, I don’t view as complicated. I mean, the guy literally leads mobs chanting, death to America. So that’s not good.

Military Action vs. Regime Change

TUCKER CARLSON: Definitely not good. But the reason I think it’s important to get a little more detailed about how that might happen is because there’s military action in progress, which we’re supporting. And the president has said, clearly, including last night, that he is focused on eliminating the capacity of the Iranian government to produce nuclear weapons. You are saying we need to use military force to affect regime change.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I have not said that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I must have.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, no, I’ve not. Not said that once. I don’t think we need to use military force to do regime change. I said I support it. I would like to see it happen. You asked me how should it happen, A popular uprising. So what I’ve advocated for. All right, let’s step back a second. You and I, we’ve known each other a long time. I would say we agree on about 80% of the things on earth, for sure. And there are a lot of things. And we can get into the nitty gritty of foreign policy as much as you want. There are a lot of things on which you and I agree. Not just a little bit, but violently.

Finding Common Ground

TUCKER CARLSON: I totally agree. I was rooting for you in your last campaign, for sure.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Well, thank you. Look, you have been heroic on on the border. You’ve been one of the clearest and best voices in the whole country on securing the border and on the absolute crisis we’re facing. And in Texas, I see it and live it every day. In Covid. In fact, you may recall, in the middle of the COVID lockdown, I was out walking my dog when the whole world was shut down and we were living in lunatic times. And I called you and said, Tucker, your nightly monologues are the single best thing on television. I watch them like an injection of crack. Okay, I’m mixing my metaphor because you don’t inject crack, but you get what I’m saying.

TUCKER CARLSON: Try.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I mean, it was. You were standing up and speaking like, what the hell are we doing? In a way that we desperately, desperately needed. And so whether it’s securing the border, whether it’s the insanity of COVID lockdowns and the vaccine mandates, whether it is the Second Amendment or the First Amendment, you and I agree on a ton of stuff. The 20% where we disagree I do think is meaningful. And it’s mostly in the foreign policy space. And what I would say, if you’ll allow me to get a little theoretical, and then I’m happy to get specific. Yes, For a long time, people have perceived two different poles of Republican foreign policy. There have been interventionists, and those have been people like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, George W. Bush and there have been isolationists, and the most prominent of those have been Ron Paul and Rand Paul, and there are others. And people perceive those are the two choices. You got to be one or the other. I’ve always thought both were wrong. I don’t agree with either one. The way I view my own foreign.

A Third Way in Foreign Policy

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m with you, by the way. For whatever it’s worth, I agree with you.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, good.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know who set up that binary, but there are lots of choices, actually.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I mean, people sort of naturally fall into. I think they want to classify people and they’re like, okay, you’re one or the other and you got to be all or nothing. And the interventionists, it seems, have never seen a country they didn’t want to invade. And that doesn’t make any sense to me. And the isolationists, I think, don’t take the threats to America seriously. And I think that’s naive and it doesn’t work. And so my view, I consider myself a third point on the triangle. And what I describe that as is that I am a non interventionist who hawk, which sounds a little weird, but what do I mean by that? I mean the central touch point for US foreign policy and for any question of military intervention should be the vital national security interest of the United States. How does this make America safer? How does this protect Americans? If it does, we should be strong. And actually another way of conceiving what I’m saying, I’m speaking theoretically, but Reagan referred to it as peace through strength. And actually I think Donald Trump’s foreign policy is very much what I’m describing, a non interventionist hawk, where he understands, and I think this is historically true, the best way to avoid war is being strong. That weakness and isolationism I think encourages war. So going back to regime change where you started in Iran, just to make.

America First Foreign Policy

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I disagree with anything you’ve said. So we may not be that far apart really, because you said that the single criterion for making decisions about America’s foreign policy is America’s national interest.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes, that’s it. Yeah. Which is also America First. That’s another way of putting that as well.

TUCKER CARLSON: The question is, are we watching that now?

The Syria Example

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I think we are. And from what you’ve said publicly, I think on Iran in particular, you and I disagree. And all right, let me contrast it. When Obama was president, when Obama was president, you remember he talked about wanting to have military action against Syria. And at the time I tried to keep an open mind to it. I said, okay, let me listen to the commander in chief. Describe to me how this is in America’s interest and what your plan is. And Bashar Assad was a bad guy. He was killing his own citizens and he had chemical weapons that were very dangerous. I could conceive of a commander in chief laying out a plan for, okay, we’re going to go in and say, grab the chemical weapons and leave. Like, I could see that if there was a real threat to America and there was a plan to prevent, I could see supporting that. So I wanted to hear what he’s had to say. And I listened both in classified briefings and public questioning. And number one, their public defense of it was incoherent. So John Kerry said, we’re going to engage in an unbelievably small strike. I think that’s a quote. I’m like, okay. And to do what? At the time, there were nine major rebel Islamic groups in Syria. I’m like, okay, I agree. Bashar Assad’s a bad guy. You topple him and one of the nine other groups takes over. Seven of them were affiliated with radical Islamic terrorism. You had Al Qaeda and Al Nusra, like, wait, how is it better to have lunatics who hate us in charge? Assad’s a bad guy, but I don’t want worse guys in charge. Obama administration couldn’t give an answer to that. And ultimately when you press them, John Kerry in particular, I pressed, and he would say, well, we need to defend international norms. What the hell is an international norm? I don’t know what it is, but I’m not interested in putting US Servicemen and women in harm’s way to defend one.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I oppose the Syria attack and opposed it vocally. And it was interesting. Rand and I agreed. Rand’s a friend of mine, but we. We agreed with that position for different reasons. What I was asking is. Is I think the question we should ask, how does this make America safer? The Obama administration couldn’t give me an answer, so I posed it. I think Iran is very different.

Syria’s Current Situation

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me ask what you think of how Syria wound up. Because Bashar al Assad now lives in Moscow. He was taken out by our allies, and he’s been replaced by a radical Islamist who was affiliated with ISIS. So is that a win or no?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Unclear. Look, Syria’s a mess, so I’ve consistently opposed.

TUCKER CARLSON: But we had a secular leader in a religious and ethnically diverse country. Now we have a religious extremist, Islamic religious extremist, who’s overseen the purge of Christians and Alawites. Is that better? That doesn’t seem.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: One of the things you said is. You said he was taken out by our allies. I don’t think that’s right. Israel didn’t take Assad out. What happened? And I’ll tell you what about Turkey. Turkey didn’t take him out. So it was interesting. I had a long time.

TUCKER CARLSON: How did Assad get kicked out? Yeah.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: When Netanyahu was in D.C. a couple of months ago, he and I sat down for a couple of hours. He’s a good friend of mine, and we talked actually about Syria. He made an interesting point that I’ve not heard anywhere else in that he said he believes what toppled Assad was when Israel took out Nasrallah. Nasrallah was the head of Hezbollah, and they took him out. And he. And he made an interesting point. He said, it’s fascinating how a charismatic leader. And Bibi said, look, Nasrallah was a very effective terrorist leader, and when they took him out, that power base was supporting Assad. And that ultimately, in Bibi’s analysis, removed the support from Assad and toppled him. But they weren’t trying to take out Assad. My view now, I don’t know, but.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you don’t think that. And it is very confusing, and I don’t know that anyone really knows all the details, but you don’t think that Israel or Turkey, our NATO ally, Turkey. Played any role in toppling Assad?

The Unintended Consequences of Military Intervention

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know. I don’t know that they did. Look, my understanding of that – they clearly took out Nasrallah and Hezbollah. They’ve decimated Hezbollah, but Hezbollah is waging war on them. So decimating Hezbollah was very good for Israel and very good for America, too. I mean, Hezbollah hated us. I would put Assad in the category of an unintended consequence. And whether it’s – I don’t know. I think time will tell.

TUCKER CARLSON: For the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, for the United States. I think time will tell the new leadership there. You’re right to be concerned. Let me step back and let’s talk regime change generally. I mentioned Syria. I also oppose the Iraq war. I think the Iraq War was a serious mistake, and we have a pattern. And going back to this binary of the interventionist and the isolationists, the interventionists advocate over and over again, there’s a bad guy. There’s a dictator who’s doing bad things to his people, and they say, let’s go topple them.

And you have dictators in the Middle East who are killing radical Islamic terrorists. We come in and topple them, the radical Islamic terrorists take over and they start killing Americans. In my view, how the heck does that help us? Saddam Hussein was a horrible human being. He murdered and tortured people. Unequivocally bad guy. But it got much worse after we toppled him. And you ended up having ISIS rise up. I mean, that was the cause of ISIS was toppling Saddam Hussein.

Same thing in Libya, you had Gaddafi, another horrible guy, that under Obama, we toppled him, and you ended up having radical Islamic warlords taking over. And so the question I asked in Syria: Okay, well, what’s the plan? And how is this good or bad for the United States? And so I don’t think with Iran – I view Iran is very different from Iraq.

Finding Common Ground on Foreign Policy

TUCKER CARLSON: But up to that point, you say we disagree. I don’t hear really anything. I’m not quite sure what happened in Syria, but I don’t know, so right. But other than that, I don’t hear anything I disagree with at all. Yeah, sounds like we’re in complete agreement. I wonder, though, is there a successful regime change that the United States supported that you’re aware of in the last hundred years?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Sure. Defeating the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union collapsing. Winning the Cold War. That was the most consequential step for US national security interests of our lifetimes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so you would classify that as a regime change that we affected?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

The Reagan Model for Confronting Adversaries

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And look, you and I are in my office. We’re sitting next to a painting of Reagan in front of the Brandenburg Gate. And up top are the words “tear down this wall” in German in the style of the graffiti. And I think those are the most important words any leader has said in modern times. And if you look at how Reagan waged the Cold War, and Reagan is very much my model for how to – I actually think how Reagan took on the Soviet Union is exactly how we should take on China now, starting from the point: look, Reagan was not an interventionist. In eight years, the biggest country Reagan ever invaded was Grenada. He was very reluctant to use U.S. military force.

TUCKER CARLSON: He didn’t respond after the ’83 barracks bombings.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You’re right. He made the judgment that the risk exceeded the benefits. And that’s a very rational decision to make. And it’s reflected Trump has made those same decisions where he is willing to use military force. But he very much asks, okay, is this good or bad for America? Does this endanger US servicemen and women or not?

And one of the points about the Cold War: Look, nobody in their right mind wanted a shooting war between America and the Soviet Union, the two biggest nuclear powers on earth. Firing bullets at each other is really unhealthy for human beings. Same thing is true with China. Nobody with any sense says, hey, let’s go to war with China. That’s really dumb, and a whole lot of people could die.

But the Cold War showed we’ve got lots of tools short of sending the Marines to fight against a regime. And one of the most important tools is the bully pulpit. And so when I say I support regime change, I actually think just simply laying out what the Ayatollah does. And so I spend a lot of time, I speak to Iranian dissident groups. I speak out against human rights abuses. I think shining a light on the depravity of leaders is a really powerful tool that America has.

TUCKER CARLSON: Should we limit our activity to that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Depends.

TUCKER CARLSON: Again, because the US Government pays opposition groups, militarized opposition groups in Iran, to overthrow the government. We’ve done that in a lot of different places, as you know. I’m not saying it’s bad, but that’s very different from what you’re describing. You’re saying we’re making a moral case, as we did for seventy years with the Soviets. Our system works, yours doesn’t. And I think we made a credible case for that. And we beat them over 70 years economically.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And that was a huge part of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. I think everyone would agree that was the main part of it. We didn’t beat them in Vietnam or North Korea.

The Power of Truth and Military Strength

SENATOR TED CRUZ: The main part of it. But it was tied to a military buildup. So I think it was two things. It was one, the clarity. So Reagan came in and he described the Soviet Union as an evil empire, right. And all of the intelligentsia in D.C., all the Democrats, all the media, they’re like, what a horrible thing to say. You can’t say that. Reagan went to the United Kingdom and he said, Marxism-Leninism will end up on the ash heap of history. People were horrified. They asked him, all right, what’s your strategy in the Cold War? He said, very simple: We win, they lose. And that was all viewed as sort of a philistine simplicity. And I think it was exactly right. And laying that out, speaking – do you know the backstory behind the Berlin Wall speech?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I do. Yes.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You probably know Peter Robinson, who was a speechwriter. So three times the State Department deleted those words from that speech, and three times Reagan wrote it back. And the State Department argued. They said, Mr. President, you can’t say this. This is too bellicose. This is too provocative. And my favorite: They said, this is too unrealistic. The Berlin Wall will stand till the end of time. And Reagan said, look, this is the whole point of the speech.

And less than three years after Reagan gave that speech, the Berlin Wall was torn to the ground. And it wasn’t knocked down by American army tanks. We didn’t shoot missiles at it. It was shining truth and light that tore it down. It was also rebuilding the American military. It was what was then pejoratively called Star Wars, where the Soviet Union, their economy couldn’t match our military buildup and it bankrupted them. That’s an example of peace through strength.

America After Victory: What Went Wrong?

TUCKER CARLSON: I wonder, I mean, is there anybody who was alive in 1989 who wouldn’t trade that America for the one we live in now? There’s not one person, I don’t think.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Oh, sure.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I mean, just the basic metrics. Debt, suicide rate, life expectancy. It was – I wonder why after that victory, America didn’t thrive in the way that we thought that it would. That I thought that it would. My family was involved in that. I mean, we were very focused on it in my house, like, we won.

And I wonder two things. Why didn’t the United States kind of declare victory and make some sort of arrangement with Russia that allowed, like, mutual prosperity rather than continuing a Cold War? And second, I wonder why the United States didn’t get a lot better. Like, why don’t we have better infrastructure? Why don’t we have fewer homeless? Why do we have all these drugs? Like, if we won, why does our country look like this?

I walked across from Union Station this morning, as you do, I’m sure, every day, and all these people lying in the street and sleeping outside, it’s like, what is that? We’re sorry to say it, but this is not a very safe country. Walk through Oakland or Philadelphia. Yeah, good luck. So most people, when they think about this, want to carry a firearm. And a lot of us do.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, there’s no doubt there are really dangerous forces in our society. Some of it is politics and some of it is culture. And one of the mistakes people make in politics is thinking everything is politics. So the political answer, which I happen to believe is we went much further down the road of liberalism. You look at Bill Clinton, who inherited the peace dividend of the Cold War being over and moved us more to the left. And then Obama accelerated it a lot. And so there are lots of bad economic policies, but I also think they’re cultural things. You know, the losses. I agree with all of that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know what you’re going to say, and I agree 100%. I bet there’s not one word that I would disagree with. All I’m saying is I think it’s important to step back and ask, but –

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I actually think Russia has very little to do with it.

Priorities: Foreign vs. Domestic Challenges

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s kind of the point that I’m trying to make, which is like, we’re all sort of focused on beating our adversaries abroad. But what is victory worth if our own country becomes what it is now? And maybe we’re spending a little too much time focused abroad and not enough time focused on the people sleeping outside Union Station.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, look, I absolutely think we need to focus at home, emphatically. And we need to focus on prosperity. We need to focus on reducing the debt, reducing spending, empowering people, low taxes, small businesses, American free enterprise. It’s the most powerful force for fighting poverty the world has ever seen. I’m 1000% there. I also recognize it is a dangerous world. And part of the responsibility of leaders, part of President Trump’s responsibility is to keep America safe. Let’s go back to where we started.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’ve been in the District a long time. In D.C. so have I. And the city’s way more dangerous. And Congress runs this.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, no. It’s a complete crap hole.

TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m saying, like the – no Iranians ever going to kill me, but I could get carjacked here. And I just don’t understand how the Congress could run this city and focus on the dangers of Iran when the city is like garbage.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s garbage. But, I mean, Congress doesn’t run the city. We could –

TUCKER CARLSON: Congress does run the city. It’s in the Constitution.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s in the Constitution. But they’ve given home rule. So it’s a Democrat mayor.

TUCKER CARLSON: You control the Congress.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’d vote for it. But it is a question of –

The Case for Domestic Regime Change

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but I’m just saying, like, what? Why? How can people ignore – it’s like if my own kids are drug addicts, but I’m focused on my neighbor’s kids. It’s like I’m neglecting my own kids. And there’s a sense in which the Congress is neglecting the country that elected them in favor of this relentless focus on other people’s problems. That’s the way it feels as an American.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, there are lots of problems in America that we need to fix. Why is DC a pit? Because you have a mayor and a Democrat City Council that won’t let police officers arrest bad guys. And in every city you see across the country, whether it’s New York, whether it’s Chicago, whether it’s LA, whether it’s San Francisco. If you have Democrats, we see the LA riots where they won’t let people be arrested.

TUCKER CARLSON: All right, then why not work in regime change here? Why not use the bully pulpit?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What do you think I do every day?

TUCKER CARLSON: And Republican senator stand up and say, I just walked to work this morning over people dying of drug ODs. We’re going to shut this place down unless they fix it. They’re mad about Putin. Like, what did Putin do to Washington? Nothing.

Domestic Policy and Law Enforcement

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, in terms of regime change, let’s talk this week, the riots in LA. I’ve made very clear that the cause of those riots are Gavin Newsom and Karen Bass. And when you elect communists who hate America, who stop law enforcement from arresting criminals, you get what you get on the street.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen. I agree.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: My in-laws are Californians and they’re wonderful people. Heidi grew up on the central coast of California. And I remember I was texting with my mother-in-law and I think I sent her a video of criminals going to a store and just looting in California. And her response, she said something like, well, this is really terrible. I wish we could. It’s a shame we can’t do anything about this. So, yes, you can go in and arrest them, throw their butts in jail, put them in handcuffs and it stops.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And so we know how to fix these things. And D.C. is, I think D.C. voted, if I remember right, 92% Democrat. Democrat policies don’t work and they destroy every community that they are in charge of.

Congressional Authority Over Washington D.C.

TUCKER CARLSON: And why don’t Republicans assert their constitutional authority over the city? Don’t they control the Congress?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes, I’d be all for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who’s against it?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Susan Collins is really vocally against it. So on questions of home rule. So, for example, let’s take an issue you and I care a lot about, the COVID lockdowns I had a couple of years ago, in the middle of them, D.C. was proposing, the D.C. school district was proposing throwing out of school any child that was not vaccinated. And at the time, if I remember correctly, it was something like 40% of the African American students in D.C. were not vaccinated. So they were talking about literally throwing out 40% of the kids at public school. And so I had a vote on the Senate floor to say, look, they can’t throw kids out of school for this. And we ended up having a big argument. And part of the argument was home rule, where there was. And Susan was the most vocal Republican that’s like, no, no, no, we have to let D.C. run. And I’m like, why? Constitution gives us the power to do it. And it ended up, by the way, every single Democrat, all of them, voted in favor of the D.C. public schools being able to throw out 40% of the black kids from school. And I said, look, you throw a kid out of school, you got a 14, 15 year old boy, you throw him out of school, you know what’s going to happen next? He’s going to join a gang, he’s going to engage in crimes, he’s going to engage in drugs, and he could be dead within five years if that kid doesn’t get an education. And the Democrats were more than happy to say, we don’t care right now. Our religion is get the vaccine or to hell with you.

Foreign Aid and Domestic Priorities

TUCKER CARLSON: But can you, I mean, I again, once again, I couldn’t agree with you more, but can you feel the frustration of people, including your voters? You know, every American at the emphasis on foreign countries and the threat we supposedly face, a lot of which is fake, obviously, over the kind of slowly unfolding tragedy of what’s happening to our country, the dollars spent, the aid packages to Ukraine to pay the retirement of civil servants in a country that we have nothing to do with, the endless support for Israel, very expensive. When people are literally buying groceries on credit in the United States, can you feel like nothing against Ukraine or Israel or any other country?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: All right, let’s stop. You said the support Israel, very expensive. How much support do we give to Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you tell me. You vote for it?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, it’s about 3 billion a year.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is the military assistance, Is that the only assistance?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, we just have military assistance. Israel does not have additional assistance. There’s, there’s an MOU, a memorandum of understanding, and it’s 3 billion a year.

TUCKER CARLSON: So what is it costing to support the bombing campaign to protect Israel right now from Iran?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I don’t know right now, but I’ll tell you this, let’s go back to the touchstone on foreign policy, American interest. Our support, our military support for Israel is massively in America’s national security.

TUCKER CARLSON: What is it?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And it benefits us enormously.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, before we can, before we can make independent judgments about whether or not that’s true, and I’m certainly open to it, I think we need to know what it costs. So what’s the annual cost of defending Israel? Do you know?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: 3 billion a year.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, no, the last aid, but I mean the cost of the weapons, for example, the cost of US Personnel there, the cost of moving ships to the region, which we’re doing right now, the cost of moving tankers, region, all of that. Do we know what the cost is?

Benefits of the US-Israel Alliance

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So look, the last week, I don’t know, and there’s some lag when the administration on the Constitution. The commander in chief has control of the armed forces. And so President Trump has made some decisions that we’ll know the cost over time, but I don’t know the last week that, that I don’t have visibility on that. The annual cost is 3 billion. That’s, that’s, it’s a 10 year memorandum of understanding and that’s, that’s the principal driver of the cost. But let me make a point. We get massive benefits from Israel. Israel shares the Mossad is one of the best intelligence sources on the planet. The enemies of Israel, the people who hate Israel, they all hate us. It’s almost a perfect overlap. And so if we tried to recreate, if we’re just trying to defend America, we tried to recreate the national security benefits of our alliance with Israel, it would cost, I don’t know, 30 billion, 300 billion.

TUCKER CARLSON: So can you elaborate? And again, I’m going into this as someone who’s always liked Israel and still does, but I also think at this point, given where we are, it’s fair to ask rational questions about what the benefits are.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Good.

TUCKER CARLSON: So does Mossad share all of its intelligence with us?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Oh, probably not, but they share a lot. We don’t share all of our intelligence with them, but we share a lot. It’s a close alliance.

Intelligence Sharing and Espionage

TUCKER CARLSON: Do they spy domestically in the United States?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Oh, they probably do, and we do as well. And friends and allies spy on each other and I assume, I assume all of our allies spy on us.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s okay with you?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You know what, one of the things about being a conservative is that you’re not naive and utopian. You don’t think humans are. All part of the reason socialism doesn’t work is the mantra. From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs doesn’t work. As a conservative, I assume people act in their rational self interest.

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s conservative to pay people to spy on you.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s conservative to recognize that human beings act to their own self interest and every one of our friends spies on us. And, and I’m not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you like it? That’s my question. I’m not asking whether they have motive to do it. Of course they do. I understand that and I, and by the way, I’m not mad at them. And you’re an American lawmaker, so I just want to know. Hold on, I want to know your attitude. You said that your guiding principle, in fact, the only principle, the only criterion.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I said guiding the overwhelming. I wouldn’t say only.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is it in America’s interest Is it in America’s interest for Israel to spy on us, including on the President?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It is in America’s interest to be closely allied with Israel because we get huge benefits for it. And you want to see the clearest.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I just want to stop on the spine for a second that it takes place as, you know, including on the President of the United States and several precedents. And I just want to know if that’s okay and why is it okay? Wouldn’t an American lawmaker say to a client state, you’re not allowed to spy on us? I’m sorry, I know why you want to. I’m not mad at you, but you’re not allowed to and I don’t care for it. I don’t want to be spied on by you. Is that it’s kind of weird not to say that, but you don’t seem able to say that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Sure, I would say don’t spy on us. They’re going to anyway. And by the way, the Brits are. The Canadians are like, I don’t think.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I’m not for that at all. I think it’s disgusting. But we don’t actually pay their, you know, we’re not their most meaningful sponsor. We’re not sort of paying for the operations of the British government.

Discussion on AIPAC and Israel Lobby

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I got to say, and this is. It’s weird, we’re talking about isolation. It’s the obsession with Israel. Why is Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I’m obsessed with Israel.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. But I think a lot of people are and like the question. Israel spies on us. Well, so does every other country. Why? Are you mad at Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: I guess. No, no, I’m hardly the one who’s. I’ve never taken money from the Israel lobby.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Have you taken money from the Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: From a PAC.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So AIPAC raises a lot of money for me, but it’s actually a misnomer because the people who raise money are individuals. So it’s not the PAC itself, but they’re individual members who believe in the American Israeli friendship of foreign lobby. No, it’s an American lobby. It’s the AIPAC stands for the America Israeli Political Action.

TUCKER CARLSON: What does it lobby for?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, to be honest, not a whole lot effectively. Listen, I came into to Congress 13 years ago with the stated intention of being the leading defender of Israel in the United States Senate. I’ve worked every day to do that. AIPAC. A lot of times AIPAC I wish were much more effective. Like there are folks on the line who are the fear swamp of terrified of AIPAC and AIPAC.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not terrified of AIPAC at all. I’m. You’re the one who seems a little uncomfortable what I’m asking.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, not uncomfortable at all.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just asking what AIPAC does. My understanding, having known a lot of.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: People, I could tell you is that.

TUCKER CARLSON: It lobbies on behalf of the Israeli government. When was the last time AIPAC took a position that deviated from Prime Minister Netanyahu all the time? Name one.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, let me go back and give a little history if you want to do a deep dive on AIPAC.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t. I want to do a shallow dive that gets.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, no, no, no, no.

TUCKER CARLSON: I want to get to the core question. AIPAC is lobbying for a foreign government And I don’t. It’s not. No. It’s lobbying for the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It is lobbying for a strong US Israeli relationship.

The AIPAC Debate Continues

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And so it’s not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Has nothing to do with the foreign government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It wants America and Israel to be closely allied.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. But it’s lobbying on behalf of the interests of another country.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So that’s not true at all. And if not true. No.

TUCKER CARLSON: How much contact do you think AIPAC leaders have for the government of Israel?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No idea. I imagine some. I think the government of Israel is often frustrated with AIPAC. Not nearly strong enough.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think there’s any coordination between the government of Israel and AIPAC?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do they talk? Sure. If you’re lobbying for more U.S. Mexico trade, would you talk to people in the U.S. and Mexico and the government? Sure. Like, if you.

TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m not mad about that. There are a million countries that lobby Washington. I like a lot of those countries, including.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, but AIPAC are Americans, but not Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Hold on. There are tons of Americans who lobby on behalf of foreign governments. I know them. I’m related to some of them. I know how it works. I’m from here. So my question is not, is it outrageous that foreign governments lobby the United States? They all do. Okay. Including Israel. My only question is, why don’t we admit that is what’s happening. You’re denying it, but it’s true. And why aren’t we saying is false? Why aren’t they registered as a foreign lobby?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Because they’re not.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re not a foreign lobby.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, they’re not. And this is that. There’s a fever swamp.

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, it’s not a fever swamp. These are very reasonable questions. And you’ve accused me of being obsessed with Israel, which I’m not.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I actually have.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I’ve said isolation feverish about it, which I’m not at all. I’m just. I find it. It’s a very tender spot when you ask it, and I don’t know why.

Cruz Reflects on AIPAC’s Declining Influence

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, Tucker. All right, let’s go back. I was first elected to the Senate in 2012. I came in, in Obama’s second term, and I actually saw AIPAC be badly wounded in a way they never came back from. And the second term is when Obama did the Iran nuclear deal. And the Iran nuclear deal, I think was catastrophic. And AIPAC went all in lobbying against it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And they failed. And I was the leading opponent of the Iran nuclear deal.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I know. They definitely failed.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes, they failed. And what happened? The Obama White House told every Democrat when I got here There used to be real bipartisan support for Israel. That has largely disappeared. And it’s the Obama nuclear deal that caused it because the Obama White House told every Democrat, pick, you either stand with Israel or you’re a Democrat and you stand with the Obama White House. And almost every single Democrat member of Congress said, I’m a Democrat first, to hell with Israel. And then I watched as AIPAC, every one of those Democrats got reelected and AIPAC did nothing about it. And it dramatically reduced AIPAC’s influence.

TUCKER CARLSON: I watched it happen.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And by the way, I told AIPAC, I said, look, the analogy. If the NRA was supporting a bunch of politicians and cared about the Second Amendment and you had politicians that vote to confiscate people’s guns, and the NRA turned around and raised money for the people who voted to confiscate guns, you know what? No one would ever care what they said again.

The Foreign Agent Registration Act Question

TUCKER CARLSON: So, you’re making the case that AIPAC is not as powerful as people say it is. And I completely agree with you. I’ve watched that. And I’m not making the case that AIPAC is all powerful and they’re running everything and putting fluoride in the water. I’m not making that case at all because it’s not true. I’m only trying to get to the question of what AIPAC is. And I don’t think you’re being straightforward about it. AIPAC is lobbying on behalf of the interests of a foreign country and they’re not registered. And you’re saying, no, that’s not true. You’re saying that they don’t coordinate with the Israeli government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do they talk with them? I don’t know what they do. I can.

TUCKER CARLSON: But why don’t you care? Isn’t it meaningful if a foreign government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Hey, I talk with Israel all the time. I’ve talked with. Of course you do. Of course you foreign countries all the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: But the law is, and a lot of people have been prosecuted under this law, that if you are lobbying on behalf of foreign government, you must register. That’s it. It’s really simple. And I don’t know why. If I’m working from Malaysia or Qatar or Belgium and I’m working on behalf of its government’s interests through a group of Americans who are representing the friendship between those two nations. I have to register under the Foreign Agent Registration act. And if I don’t, I can go to jail. People have gone to jail, including people I know. So I don’t understand why we don’t just be honest and say they’re lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. They’re coordinating with the government. You know that. That’s true.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That is not only not true, that is false.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re not coordinating with the Israeli government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do you know how AIPAC raises money for elected officials? Like what they do? Like what the actual mechanics is?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I mean, they go to people who are sympathetic to Israel and raise money and then send it to candidates who agree with them.

How AIPAC Fundraising Works

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So what they’ll do. So in my last election, AIPAC endorsed me and they’ll host a fundraiser, and they’ll host a fundraiser in Dallas or Houston or Atlanta or New York or LA, and they’ll do a fundraiser and they’ll get someone who will host it. And it’s usually a business owner, lawyer, doctor, someone who hosts it. And you’ll get, typically at an AIPAC fundraiser, 30, 40, 50, maybe 100 people who live in that city who care about a strong US Israel relationship. And if they have 50 people, each of them writes $1,000 check. And you raised $50,000?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I’ve been to an AIPAC fundraiser.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I know what it looks like, but that is not. And by the way, there’s no representative of the Israeli government there. You have. When you’re in Dallas, you’re meeting with.

TUCKER CARLSON: This false and silly conversation. I know all this. I know all this. The question is, are AIPAC’s goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government to any extent?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, that’s a really simple question. Lobbying on behalf of.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a simple question. Are AIPAC’s goals shaped by the goals of the Israeli government? And I’m just going to ask you a question straightforwardly, and if you say no, I think we both know that’s not true.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Are they shaped by. Is that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are they coordinating with the Israeli government?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Are they talking about directing them? What are you want to talk about, FARA, the law on lobbying on behalf of someone? It is. I hire you and you lobby on behalf of me. I direct you. Does Israel direct AIPAC? No, they are not lobbying on behalf of them. Do they care about them?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, but do you think that. It’s just interesting because what you’re now describing in a very defensive way, I will say is foreign influence over our politics.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you began, and it’s so transparently obvious to everybody, I don’t know why you would be embarrassed of it. You’ve said that you are sincerely for Israel. I believe you. I don’t think you have some weird agenda. You seem to, by the way, sincere.

The Anti-Semitism Accusation

SENATOR TED CRUZ: By the way, Tucker. It’s a very weird thing, the obsession with Israel when we’re talking about foreign countries.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s hardly an obsession.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You’re not talking about Chinese, you’re not talking about Japanese, you’re not talking about the Brits, you’re not talking about. About the French. The question what about the Jews? What about the Jews?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I’m an anti-Semite now, Senator.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You’re asking the questions, Tucker. You’re asking, why are the Jews controlling our foreign policy? That’s what you just asked.

TUCKER CARLSON: Hardly saying that. And I have.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That is exactly what you just said.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, actually, I can speak for myself and tell you what I am saying.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Good.

TUCKER CARLSON: On behalf, not simply of myself, but on my many Jewish friends who would have the same questions, which is to what extent, and it’s interesting, you’re trying to derail my questions by calling me an anti-Semite, which you are.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I did not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course you are. And rather than be honorable enough to say it right to my face, you are, in a sleazy, feline way, implying it or just asking questions about the Jews. I’m not asking questions about the Jews. I have. There’s nothing to do with Jews or Judaism. It has to do with a foreign government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Isn’t Israel controlling our foreign policy? That’s not about the Jews.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said. I’m asking.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And by the way, you’re the one that just called me, I think, a sleazy feline. So let’s be clear.

TUCKER CARLSON: Sleazy to imply that I’m an anti-Semite, which you just did.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I just said, why is that the only question you’re asking? You answer it. Give me another reason. If you’re not an anti-Semite, give me another reason. Reason why the obsession is Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: I am in no sense obsessed with Israel. We are on the brink of war with Iran. And so these are valid questions.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But you’re not just.

Defending America First Principles

TUCKER CARLSON: If I can finish. You asked me why I’m obsessed with Israel three minutes after telling me that when you first ran for Congress, you elucidated one of your main goals, which is to defend Israel. Yes, and I’m the one who’s obsessed with Israel. I don’t see a lawmaker’s job as defending the interests of a foreign government, period. Any government, including the ones that my ancestors come from. So that’s my position. That does not make me an anti-Semite. And shame on you for suggesting otherwise. And I mean that. And that’s low. And you know it’s low. So why don’t you Just answer my question.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’ll answer it in a straightforward, rational way.

TUCKER CARLSON: You certainly have the IQ to do.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It, so shame on you. Is cute, by the way, Tucker. It is.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s not cute. I’m offended.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You’re. You’re.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m obsessed with the Jews. You just told me.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You just called me a sleazy feline.

TUCKER CARLSON: It is sleazy to implore, imply that I’m an anti-Semite for asking questions about how my government is doing.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You want to count how many questions you asked about what about the Jews? What about Israel? What about Egypt?

TUCKER CARLSON: I never asked about the Jews. This has nothing to do with the Jews. Whatever that means. This has to do with a foreign government. And once again, shame on you for conflating the two. They have nothing to do with each other. I’m talking about the influence of Israel.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And Jews have nothing to do with each other.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, all Jews are an attack on all Jews, which I am not, nor would I ever be undertaking. Now, I’m not attacking anybody, by the way.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That’s who Iran wants to kill, is all the Jews and all the Americans.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I’m totally opposed to that. Okay, but now because.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Except you don’t want to do anything about.

TUCKER CARLSON: Decisions need to be made.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We can talk about those decisions.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I plan to.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Good.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I just want to get a sense of whether you think, having described yourself as an America first person whose only criterion for judgment on foreign policy is America’s national interest, to what extent you’re influenced by a foreign government which gives you a lot of money through its lobby, and you’re claiming this has nothing to do with the foreign government they’re not coordinating. Yes, they’re spying on us, but doesn’t bother you. And I’m sort of wondering, like, what is this? This is one of the weirdest conversations I’ve ever had.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’ll tell you what, and I’ll answer any question you like, but let’s try to.

The Question of Influence

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you going to call me an anti Semite again or no?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Let’s try to ratchet down the temperature a little bit.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re the one who went to motive. I’m asking honest questions. Just asking questions. Yes, that is what I’m doing.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Let’s try to ratchet down the temperature a little bit.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And did you ever see an Eddie Murphy movie called the Distinguished Gentleman?

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s a great movie. It’s actually a fun comedy about politics. And Eddie Murphy in the movie is a con man who gets elected to Congress. And he’s literally a con man who the congressman dies, he has the same name, and so he runs and they get elected. And there’s a scene in the movie where Eddie Murphy is a freshman member of Congress and he’s sitting down with a sleazy lobbyist. And he’s asking the lobbyist, all right, what should my positions be on? I think they were talking about power plants and electrical transmission lines. And the lobbyist like, well, what do you believe? And Eddie Murphy, as the con man, said, I don’t care. Whatever gets me the most money, I’ll do whatever gets me the most money. And the lobbyist says, no, no, pick a side. Doesn’t matter what you pick. If you pick one side, we’ll go shake down everyone who supports that size and they’ll give you money. If you pick the other side, that’s fine. We’ll just go to the other side and shake down that. That’s a little bit the way it works. And you often get leftists in the media who say, for example, if you support the Second Amendment as you do, and I do, well, you’re just bought and paid for by the NRA. And that actually is backwards. I believe in the Second Amendment because I believe in the Constitution. Now am I proud that the NRA supports me? Sure, because people who care about the Second Amendment want to support leaders who fight for it. But it gets it backward. Look, AIPAC, when I ran for the Senate. AIPAC didn’t support me. I supported Israel before they supported me. I’m happy to have their support because they share my objective.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but you’re missing it. But I’m not suggesting that you’re bought and paid for. I’m not saying that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Actually, I want to go back. I want to go back and take the transcript because you just said a minute ago. Are you. I’m slightly paraphrasing, but are you. Are you lobbying for a foreign government because they pay you a lot of money? That’s basically what you said. So you are suggesting that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me. Let me just be clear about what I think. Your views seem totally sincere.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: You take money from people who agree with you. Yeah, I believe that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’m only trying to take money from people who disagree with me.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m only trying to get to the question of. To what extent is the US Government influenced by other governments? And it’s a lot. It’s hardly just Israel. It’s hardly just Israel. I don’t think Israel’s the main one. There are lots of governments. China is a massive influence on this city.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And it’s a huge problem, as you know.

TUCKER CARLSON: I couldn’t agree more. And there are lots of other. The UK, which is a truly sinister place, in my opinion. As a ethnic Brit, I can say I think it’s. That’s my view. Maybe you disagree.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I think they’re on the wrong path. I love. But their government is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Without even getting into that. I’m just saying I don’t think Israel’s the only one, but it’s the only one where you’re instantly called an anti Semite for asking questions. And it’s also the only government that no one will ever criticize. And I find.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Criticize Israel every minute of every day. Like the only government that people will not criticize. Rashida Tlaib just tweeted out calling Benjamin Netanyahu a war criminal.

TUCKER CARLSON: Rashida Tlaib.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, you said no one will criticize.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m talking about Republicans that I would vote for, including you. And I’m saying, you know, whatever. I don’t even like talking about Israel. What I care about, I never do because it’s not worth being called anti Semites from AIPAC recipients. But now we are on the verge of joining a war. And I just want to be clear about why we’re doing this.

Cruz’s Motivation for Supporting Israel

SENATOR TED CRUZ: All right, so. And let’s get into Iran momentarily. But you suggested. It was a strange thing that I said a minute ago, that when I came into The Senate, I resolved that I was going to be the leading defender of Israel. And what you didn’t ask is why. So let me tell you why.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, you said I was obsessed with Israel. And you had just told me that, like, your driving motive to get to the Senate was to defend Israel. I’m like, I don’t think I’m the one who’s obsessed with Israel. Okay? So, Tucker, words matter.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Uh huh.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you know that. I said I resolved to be the leading defender of Israel, and you said your driving motive, the reason you’re in.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: The Senate, you want to be the leading defender of Israel. I would think if I ran for Senate, I’d be like, there are people dying of drug abuse on the street.

TUCKER CARLSON: My driving motive is to fight for Texas and America and to fight for jobs and to fight for the Constitution. And you played a very, very careful word game of eliding the one who.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Said it, not me.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you still haven’t asked why, but I’m going to tell you why.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay?

TUCKER CARLSON: And the reason is twofold. Number one, as a Christian growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible, those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will. Will be cursed. And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of things, of the.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Those who bless the government of Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Those who bless Israel is what it says, doesn’t say the government of. It says the nation of Israel. So that’s in the Bible. As a Christian, I believe that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Where is that?

TUCKER CARLSON: I can find it to you. I don’t have the scripture off the tip of mine. You pull out the phone and use the.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s in Genesis. But. So you’re quoting a Bible phrase, you don’t have context for it. You don’t know where in the Bible it is. But that’s like, like your theology. I’m confused. What does that even mean? Tucker, I’m a Christian. I want to know what you’re talking about.

Biblical Interpretation and Modern Israel

TUCKER CARLSON: Where does my support for Israel come from? Number one, because biblically, we are commanded to support Israel. But number two.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Hold on, hold on. You’re a senator and now you’re throwing out theology. And I am a Christian and I am allowed to weigh in on this. We are commanded as Christians to support the government of Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: We are commanded to support Israel and we’re.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What does that mean? Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: We’re told those who bless Israel will be blessed.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But hold on. Define Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: This is important.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Are you kidding? Kidding? This is a majority Christian country.

TUCKER CARLSON: Define Israel. Do you not know what Israel is? That would be the country you’ve asked, like 49 questions about.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So that’s what Genesis. That’s what God is talking about.

TUCKER CARLSON: The nation of Israel.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes. And he’s. So does that the current borders, the current leadership. He’s talking about the political entity called Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s talking about the nation of Israel, yet nations exist. And he’s discussing a nation. A nation was. The people of Israel is the nation.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They’re the descendants of Abraham referring to in Genesis. Is that the same as the country run by Benjamin Netanyahu right now? Yes. Yes, it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: And by the way, it’s not run by Benjamin Netanyahu as a dictator. It’s a Democrat country that elected.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: He’s the prime minister. Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: But just like, you know, America is the country run by Donald Trump. No, actually, the American people elected Donald Trump. The same principle. This is silly.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’m talking about the political entity of modern Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. And that is.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You believe that’s what God was talking about in Genesis?

TUCKER CARLSON: I do.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But that country’s existed since when?

TUCKER CARLSON: For thousands of years now. There was a time when it didn’t exist, and then it was recreated just over 70.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But I’m saying, I think most people understand that line in Genesis to refer to the Jewish people, God’s chosen people.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s not what it says.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, Israel. But you don’t even know where in the Bible it is, so. I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t remember the scriptural citation, but okay, I keep.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s like Genesis 16 or something like that. But yes, it’s in the earlier part of the book. But the point is.

TUCKER CARLSON: All right, Tucker, you keep interrupting me before I finish my sentence.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s important to know what you’re talking about. I don’t know what you’re. So you’re saying, as a Christian, if I believe in Jesus, I have to support the modern state of Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not saying that. I’m explaining for me what my vote motivation is.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, so I’m just trying to understand. You said God tells you to support the modern state of Israel in the Bible in some place in the Bible that you heard about, but you don’t know where it is. That’s your theology.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re going back. Am I a sleazy feline again? I mean, if you accuse me of.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Anti Semitism again, I will say that, but I don’t think you will try.

TUCKER CARLSON: To be a little less condescending. I’m trying to have a conversation.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’m not condescending. You’re throwing this stuff out. And it’s my job to figure out what you’re talking about.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I don’t understand, but you’re not letting me.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, I’m sorry. I want to be polite.

Strategic Alliance and Iran Threat

TUCKER CARLSON: That is for me, a personal motivation. But I also. What I was about to say, I don’t believe my personal faith. Not everyone who I represent is a Christian. It’s not an argument for me to give that we should do this because of my faith. And so as an elected official, I don’t give that as the reason we should support Israel. That is a personal motivation for me, but I don’t think it is the reason we should. The reason that I am the leading defender of Israel is because Israel is our strongest ally in the Middle east, an incredibly troubled part of the world. And supporting Israel benefits America. And the clearest illustration of that is what is happening right now. Let me just make this point and.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Then, and then I’ll just ask what you mean. That’s it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, look, Iran.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think the most acute national security threat facing America right now is the threat of a nuclear Iran. I think China is the biggest long term threat, but acute and near term is a nuclear Iran.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay.

Israel’s Role in Confronting Iran

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And I think Israel is doing a massive favor to America right now by trying to take out Iran’s nuclear capacity. And the reason I view Iran differently, we talked before about Iraq. I opposed the Iraq war. We talked about Syria. I oppose military intervention in Syria. The reason for that is those did not pose a threat to the United States. I think Iran is markedly different.

Number one, the Ayatollah is a religious zealot. He is a lunatic, but a particularly dangerous kind of lunatic because he’s driven by religious fervor. When he says death to America and death to Israel, I believe him. And I think Iran is trying to get a nuclear weapon because there is a very real possibility they would use a nuclear weapon. So you want to ask how does supporting Israel benefit us? Right now this tiny little country the size of the state of New Jersey is fighting our enemies for us and taking out their top military leadership and trying to take out their nuclear capacity. That makes America much safer.

Trump’s Position on Iran’s Nuclear Program

TUCKER CARLSON: So the President has said repeatedly, Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon and he will do whatever it takes to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. He said that like a hundred times. He clearly means it. I think he will use force to affect that if he feels he has to. I think he’s been really clear about that. I don’t know, but it seems that way. Do you feel that do you think that’s correct?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Whether he would use force to stop a nuclear weapon? I think he, he has put that option on the…

TUCKER CARLSON: He certainly suggested. I mean, I have literally no idea what’s going to happen, but just reading his statements, he’s made that really clear.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So what he has been very clear about, and I spoke with the president on Sunday, is he has been very clear to Iran that if they attack US Servicemen and women, there will be real consequences. And I think very serious military…

Iranian Assassination Plots Against Trump

TUCKER CARLSON: By the way, this is a sidebar, but I just can’t resist. The prime minister of Israel said that Iran tried to assassinate Donald Trump twice.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, I read your newsletter this morning and…

TUCKER CARLSON: But do you believe that’s true?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Again, I think it was sort of a word game. What is true is Iran is trying to assassinate Donald J. Trump and they have hired hitmen. Now, you pointed out…

TUCKER CARLSON: No, he said that they tried to have tried twice to kill him. And I don’t know that I don’t have any evidence that’s true, but I sort of wonder if that is true, why aren’t we at war with him already?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. And I read your newsletter this morning and I thought it was, it was playing word games to, to draw a political point.

TUCKER CARLSON: How’s that a word game? It’s my president. And can I tell you. Yeah, please.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. You rightly pointed out there’s no evidence that this clown in Butler, Pennsylvania, who shot the president was working for the Iranians. I don’t think he was. There’s no evidence of that, although I would like to know more about…

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree was…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And what’s going on. But, but I don’t find it plausible that he was working for the Iranians. So was that caused by the Iranians? No. But what is true and what your newsletter didn’t acknowledge, is it true or false that Iran is currently trying to murder Donald J. Trump and has paid hit men to do so?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s. That’s the question. And I don’t know. The Butler, Pennsylvania thing…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Butler, Pennsylvania.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let’s just put that aside. I don’t know.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, so Netanyahu spoke. When he said those two assassinations were because of Iran. But what he was saying that is right, is they’re actively trying to murder Donald J. Trump.

Evidence of Iranian Assassination Attempts

TUCKER CARLSON: Is there. Okay. So you’re aware of a plot to kill Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes. That Iran is paying for.

TUCKER CARLSON: And by the way, when, when it…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Has been over the last, I’d say 18 months to two years.

TUCKER CARLSON: In the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: In the United States. Yes, they. And let me Point out, has anyone been arrested for the Trump attempted assassination? No, but they are also actively paying Iranian hitman to murder Mike Pompeo when he was President Trump’s first Secretary State. The first term, rather. John Bolton, when John Bolton was National Security Adviser to President Trump and a guy named Brian Hook who was Assistant Secretary of State.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: During the Biden administration.

TUCKER CARLSON: We go back to Donald Trump because he’s the President. No, no, it’s a big deal. What do you mean there? When no one has been arrested for these assassination attempts on Trump. Yes, they’ve hired hitmen. How do we know that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: All right, let me, let me break it down. People have been arrested. So the reason I brought up Pompeo, Bolton and Hook, who are under active assassination attempts because of their service in the first Trump administration, under the Biden administration.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, they say that. I’ve never seen any evidence of it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Can I give you the evidence?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, let’s just stick with Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, no, no, because these are interrelated. So let me make a bloody point. Under the Biden administration, the State department was spending $2 million a month providing security for Pompeo, Bolton and Hook. And they did arrest Iranian hitmen at John Bolton’s apartment complex who rented, I think, the apartment next to him and were actively trying to assassinate him. And they went and arrested them. So, yes, they caught Iranian hitmen. Now, it so happens Iran’s not very good at it. And so they. But they are actively trying. And in fact, during the…

TUCKER CARLSON: What about Trump? He’s the president. If there’s a plot to kill Trump by the Iranians.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, so you dispute that the Iranians are trying to kill Trump.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. I mean, that’s the most important question. The Prime Minister of Israel just said there have been two assassination attempts against Donald Trump by the Iranians. And I think it’s a very fair question. Maybe you disagree to ask. What are you talking about?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. And I agree with you that he misspoke.

TUCKER CARLSON: So there weren’t those two attempts.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: There were two attempts, but the clown in Butler, Pennsylvania and the other guy on the golf course were not connected with the Iranians. That’s the part that he misspoke. But by the way, when you speak all the time, occasionally, what he said that was accurate is that Iran is actively trying to murder Donald J. Trump and his paid hitman.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but. Right, okay, that’s fine.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And he was explaining it with the two attorneys.

Questioning the Evidence and Response

TUCKER CARLSON: I understand, I understand, but I just want to pull that thread, because it’s so important. I voted For Donald Trump. I campaigned for Donald Trump. He’s our president, and we’re on the cusp of a war. So if Iran. If there’s evidence that Iran paid hitmen to kill Donald Trump and is currently doing that, where’s that. Like, what are you even talking? I’ve never heard that before. Okay, where’s the evidence? Who are these people? Why haven’t they been arrested? Why are we not at war with Iran?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That’s a great question to ask.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you know that that’s true?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We know that it’s true because we have been told that by the military and our intelligence community for the last two years. We, meaning who Congress, has in the public. I mean, we had multiple testimonies. I can send you…

TUCKER CARLSON: Do we know the names of the people or where this happened or what they tried to do to kill Trump?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We do not. We have not apprehended an Iranian hitman trying to kill him. We know that Iran is trying to…

TUCKER CARLSON: Do so in the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes. And by the way, like, Iran put out…

TUCKER CARLSON: This just seems like a huge headline, and you’re acting like everyone knows this.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I didn’t know that Iran put out a whole video about murdering Trump.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. But I’ve never heard evidence that there are hitmen in the United States. I mean, trying to kill Trump right now. We should, like, have a nationwide dragnet on this, and we should attack Iran immediately if that’s true, don’t you think?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: If they’re trying to assassinate our president.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They have been for two years.

TUCKER CARLSON: They are at war with them.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Well, we are trying to…

Debate Over Military Response

TUCKER CARLSON: Why don’t we just nuke Tehran if they’re trying to murder our president? There’s nothing that you could do that would be worse for the United States than murdering Trump. And I just don’t understand why you’re not calling for the use of nuclear weapons against the ayatollah right now. I’m serious. If you really believe there’s the use…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Of nuclear weapons, whatever it is part of the problem of…

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you mean? You don’t seem to take the allegations seriously. I do. If you believe they’re trying to murder Trump, we need to stop what we’re doing and punish them.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Can I ask something? And I mean this sincerely. So. All right. 20 years ago, you were. I think it’s fair to say in the interventionist world, you were a big time. You were a vocal defender of the Iraq War.

TUCKER CARLSON: I was a promoter of the Iraq War.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And you now. And I dis. Look, I think. You think you were mistaken. I think you were mistaken. That’s okay. Look, people change and learn, and that’s part of the journey of being human. Your views have moved, though. In my view, they’d gone way too far the other end.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m totally confused. I’m saying. Hold on. This is one of the weirdest conversations I’ve ever had. I’m saying, if it’s true that Iran is trying to murder Trump, we need to move militarily against Iran immediately. That’s not isolationism. That’s the most. That’s a cult of violence, which I am calling for. If we believe that Iran is trying to murder our president, we need to strike Iran.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, but isolationists say things like, well, then just nuke them, which is what you just said, which is kind of…

TUCKER CARLSON: A weird, because I’m upset because I’m taking you seriously. You don’t take your own statement.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I take my statements very seriously.

TUCKER CARLSON: So I’ve asked you, where’s the evidence? This is true. And you said, well, they’re trying to assassinate Brian Hook or something, which I’m against, by the way. And I’m against hurting any American, period. No matter…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So you dispute that they’re trying to murder…

TUCKER CARLSON: Not just at all. I’m not disputing…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They literally arrested the hitman with Bolton.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not. I don’t know why that’s even relevant. I’m asking about the President of the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Wait, it’s not relevant that Iran hitman to murder cabinet members in Trump’s administration? That doesn’t. It doesn’t go to…

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve already said…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: How credible is it that they’re willing to spend money to do that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Opposed to that. It’s awful. I am against killing anybody, actually, and especially foreign government. I’m asking about your allegation and the Prime Minister of Israel’s allegation that Iran…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Is trying to murder us. Killing terrorists is a good thing. Killing people who are trying to murder Americans is a good thing, because if you’re America first, you want to protect America. And so taking out, killing Osama bin Laden was a fantastic…

TUCKER CARLSON: But you don’t really believe that they’re trying to murder Trump or you…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes, they do. Yes, they do.

TUCKER CARLSON: And why aren’t you calling for military action against Tehran right now?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Because they’re not very effective in terms of hitmen. Their hitmen are not very effective.

TUCKER CARLSON: I do think so. They’re hitmen, but not the bad kind, the efficient kind.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, they’re just…

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you saying?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They’re a weak country who is on its knees. And I think we need to…

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why are we so afraid of them? Why are they the biggest threat if they’re a weak country that’s on its knees?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Because they’re trying…

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m trying to keep track.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They’re trying to develop. Be a little less snarky.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know. You’re right. That is a problem that I have. I’m sorry.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They’re trying to develop nuclear weapons. They are close to developing nuclear weapons. And even a weak country with a nuclear weapon. Look, I believe there is a very real possibility if the Ayatollah develops a nuclear weapon, that he would detonate it either in Tel Aviv or New York or Los Angeles. And that would be utterly catastrophic. And I don’t know what the chances are of that. Let me compare and contrast Iran to North Korea.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, can I just ask one last question about trying to kill the president? You sincerely believe, you promise that right now the Iranian government is trying to murder our president? You sincerely believe right now?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: And yet you are not calling for military action against the government that’s trying to murder our president? Can you explain that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t think they’re very effective. I do think we should, by the way, America is.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re willing to take that risk?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I think we should protect the president and we should take out our enemies. Israel is doing that right now.

TUCKER CARLSON: But aren’t they? Why would we ask Israel if they’re trying?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: The question was, why would we have Israel regime change? That’s a pretty good example of why I’m for regime changes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so you’re saying we should just go in and take out the government of Iran. Why would we outsource it to Israel if they’re trying to murder a president? Okay, you sound like the isolationist.

Military Strategy and Risk Assessment

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What I’m saying on any military judgment is there needs to be a cost benefit analysis of what are the risks versus what are the benefits. In this instance, I think it is enormously in America’s interest to do what Israel is doing right now. Take out Iran’s senior military leadership and take out their nuclear capacity. That is benefiting America. And it is a good risk reward. I would oppose invading Iran and putting boots on the ground to topple the government. If the risk got severe enough, I would support that. But I think the relative risk is not severe enough to justify that step at this time. What I would absolutely oppose under any circumstances is invading Iran and then staying and trying to turn them into a democracy. And part of where Iraq really went off the rails is not only did we topple someone who was fighting radical Islamic terrorists who’s a bad guy, but then we tried the vision of interventionists. It actually overlaps with the vision of a lot of Democrats. Let’s go promote democracy in the world.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And it is our military’s job to kill the bad guys, to defend America. It’s not their job to defend international norms. It’s not their job. So I have zero desire for the US military to turn Iran into Switzerland. Look, would it be nice if they suddenly became Switzerland? Sure, if I could wave a magic wand, great. But I’m not going to send your kids or my kids to be in front of guns to go make that happen.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, bless you for that. I think that’s a, that is the lesson that I learned from Iraq. I promoted that war. Apparently, unlike you, I was dumber. And I think that you just articulated the main lesson of it, which is it’s hard to do that and we’re not good at it.

The Power of American Leadership

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But I will. And so we are agreeing on that. I will say as a corollary, vehemently agreeing as a corollary. That doesn’t mean that horrible, evil dictators are okay. And going back to Reagan and the Cold War, we have lots of weapons. I am happy to highlight the brutality, the oppression, the human rights abuses of regimes, even though I don’t want to invade them because I think the bully pulpit of American leadership is really powerful and I think dictatorships are terrified. So I’ve spent 13 years in the Senate. One of the things I do frequently is highlight dissidents in Iran and North Korea and China. In Venezuela, people are being tortured. Miriam Ibrahim in Sudan, who was sentenced to, to 100 lashes and then to be killed for the crime of being a Christian. And I repeatedly went to the Senate floor and shined a light on the government of Sudan. It was corrupt, it was evil. I practically begged Barack Obama say her name.

TUCKER CARLSON: Ultimately, I felt that way with the J6 prisoners.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, yes, and look, there is power to speaking out. And ultimately the international Obama never did say her name. He would not say her name. Ultimately, there was enough international condemnation. The government of Sudan let her go. And so she was not executed. And I actually, I met her. So she had a two year old son, Martin, and she gave birth to a little girl named Maya. And she was in leg irons in prison waiting for the death sentence. They were not going to kill her until she gave birth. And they told her, we will not kill you if you will renounce Jesus and She refused. And I met her. She was in D.C. speaking at a conference after she was released, obviously. And she’s a tiny woman, a small woman. I asked her, I said, when you were in that prison cell with your kids, how did you have the strength not to just give in to despair? I mean, I’ve never been threatened with murder unless I renounce my faith.

TUCKER CARLSON: Faith.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And she just said to me, with, with a real peacefulness, she said, Jesus was with me. And it, I mean, it. Thankfully, you and I have not faced that circumstance. But I do think there is a responsibility.

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s still time.

Reflections on John McCain

SENATOR TED CRUZ: There is, and I hope we don’t. And actually, I’ll use another example, John McCain, who you and I disagreed with on a lot of issues. I respected and admired him for his service and time as a prisoner of war. I think his policies, I disagreed with vehemently and fought against them, but the man fought for America, and he was thrown in prison and he was tortured by Vietnam, and he was given the opportunity to be released early, and he turned it down because he thought it would be dishonorable to lead before his fellow service veteran women. And when I first got here, there.

TUCKER CARLSON: Were no women there.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But, yeah, okay, man, you’re right. When I first got here, McCain hated my guts, and he actually referred to me and Rand as wacko birds. I remember I have up on the shelf, I have a baseball cap that a grassroots supporter gave me with a picture of Daffy Duck and labeled wacko birds, which I liked and laughed with. But when he did that, I went to the Senate floor and I gave a speech praising John McCain. And it was the day he had, like, attacked me publicly. And it happened to be, it was the 40th anniversary of his release from the Hanoi Hilton. And I was consciously, I just talked about what a privilege it is to serve with someone who suffered for his country, who served. And I didn’t get into where we disagreed on policy on that speech. I just said, you know, look, the man is an American hero, and I’m proud to serve with him. But that was meant to be a statement also that if you attack me, I’m going to praise you, not for things that are not praiseworthy. I, if I disagree with you, I will not be shy about saying it, but for things that are praiseworthy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I remember that it was 2013.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah.

Iran’s Nuclear Threat and Future Scenarios

TUCKER CARLSON: And I felt the same way. I went to his cell at the Hanoi Hilton, and I, oh, wow. I, I, I agree with you about McCain. I just want to end by asking you specifically about what’s going to happen next in Iran and what should happen next? So you’ve called for regime change. You’ve said you don’t favor the US Military participating in any kind of regime change. You said you don’t think, and bless you for saying this, that the US Military should try and turn it into Belgium. Yeah, thank God. But there is a third option where it turns into Syria, where it’s this open wound and it causes massive migration and further destroys Europe, as Syria has, and that’s a huge cost. And where lots of people die and religious minorities get murdered in Syria again. Are you worried about that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Sure. And listen, that lots of bad things can happen. But going back to what we talked about, the principle of defending America, I agree with President Trump that Iran with a nuclear weapon is an unacceptable risk to America and we need to stop it. I agree with President Trump and I’ll make a point.

TUCKER CARLSON: But he’s not for regime change.

Trump’s Foreign Policy Record

SENATOR TED CRUZ: He’s not. So he and I disagree. Look, I think he thinks it would be better he has not said he’s for it. And you know what? Look, it is consequential when the President of the United States says, I’m for regime change. So I understand why he hasn’t. What he has said is he’s drawn a red line and said Iran will not have a nuclear weapon, and the only acceptable outcome is complete dismantlements. They have centrifuges. They’re. They’re enriching uranium right now. They’re trying to develop a nuclear weapon. He said they must have complete dismantlement. I led 52 senators, Republican senators, in a letter where we said, we agree with President Trump. That’s the red line, complete dismantlement. I agree with President Trump. I agree with him supporting Israel, taking out Iran’s military leadership, taking out their nuclear capability. And I’ll point out, look, if you look, the first term, I am hard pressed to think of a single foreign policy decision Donald Trump made the first term that I disagree with. And that’s not entirely accidental because I spent a lot of time the first term in the Oval Office with him. And what happened in the first term often is you would have. In the administration, you had interventionists in the administration, you had isolationists, and they disagreed. They would fight within the administration. And often what it would give is an opportunity for me to come in and say, hey, there’s a middle path here that President Trump agreed with frequently. And it’s worth noting, in the first term, he most assuredly was not an isolationist look, he took out General Soleimani, which I emphatically agree with. And in fact, I introduced a resolution that we voted on the Senate floor commending him for taking out General Soleimani, who was the leader of the IRGC and who was responsible for killing over 600 American servicemen and women. When Trump came in, ISIS had a caliphate that had grown up under Obama that was about the size of the state of Indiana. And Trump came in and utterly decimated them. He killed the terrorists, took away their caliphate, and defeated them. And he also took out Baghdadi, the head of ISIS. I mean, those are not the actions of an isolationist. But at the same time, I don’t.

Defining Isolationism

TUCKER CARLSON: Even know what isolation is. It’s just a slur designed to control. I mean, I’ve never met an isolationist. I don’t even know what that means.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, Rand Paul is my colleague. Rand is an isolationist. And Tucker, you’ve become one. And I don’t mean it as a slur. You consistently say you have said, actually, I want to. I want to read from your newsletter. Because if you ask what an isolationist is, your newsletter, a couple of days ago, you wrote, Iran cannot have a nuclear bomb. And we’re hoping to get back to the negotiating table. We will see. There are several people in leadership in Iran that will not be coming back. Trump said, following the strikes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It’s worth taking a step back and wondering how any of this helps the United States. We can’t think of a single way. Okay. That, to me, is the essence of isolationism. And let me just ask you, when the Ayatollah chants, death to America, I believe him. Do you not believe him? Do you think he doesn’t mean it when he says death to America?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think he hates America for sure, and I’m opposed to that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And do you think he’s willing to act on it? It’s not just hate America, he also is leading a country in trying to.

TUCKER CARLSON: Understand circumstances for sure. So the question is, do you act in a way that makes that more or less likely? And that’s a tough call. It’s something that you can debate. One of the ways you shut down debate is by calling people names like isolationists, pretending they’re, like, pro Nazi or something, or as you did, claiming I’m an anti Semite. That’s not a way to get to a solution or have a rational conversation. That’s a way to make people be quiet. And I. I’m against that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, so if you don’t like the label isolationist how would you look? Look, Rand and I serve with Rand. Rand is a friend of mine. But Rand opposes every military action in every circumstance.

TUCKER CARLSON: Don’t oppose every military. This whole thing is infantile, and you know that it is. It’s a way. It’s a way to call people.

Defining Foreign Policy Positions

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So which of Trump’s military actions do you support?

TUCKER CARLSON: Disagree with them all and maybe make them be quiet.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Give me another name if you don’t like that. I’m not trying to have you be quiet. We’ve been talking an hour and a half. I’m asking if you don’t like the name isolationist. How would you describe it?

TUCKER CARLSON: I would describe myself in the same way you falsely described yourself when this conversation.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Falsely? Falsely. What did I say? False.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said that the only thing that matters in a foreign policy decision is whether it helps the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I didn’t say the only. I said the predominant.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s what I understood. So let me revise what you said and apply it to myself and say the only thing that matters is whether or not it serves the United States. And I feel very stung by what happened in Iraq, if I’m being honest, possibly because, unlike you, I guess I supported it. And I saw us get drawn into it in a way that nobody anticipated. And I saw the cost, just $3 trillion, and the cost on so many levels to the United States was just so profound. And I…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It was clearly a mistake.

TUCKER CARLSON: Gosh, it reminds me of Kaiser Wilhelm in 1914 saying, “My men will be back by the time the leaves turn.” And of course, that destroyed Christian Europe. So it’s like you don’t really know where these things are going once the shooting starts. That’s my only point. And calling people names, anti-Semite, isolationist to get them to stop talking is not the way to serve your country. That’s all I’m saying.

Finding Common Ground on Iraq

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I’m trying to have a real and serious conversation. And look, a lot of this has been contentious. I wish it had not, because, as we started out by saying, you and I agree, agree vehemently on 80% of the issues. This discussion is focused on the 20% where we don’t. You know, I will say, look, on Iraq, you look at the 2016 presidential campaign where you had 17 Republicans running. If you set Rand aside and his views are on one side. There were only two candidates on that stage that opposed the Iraq war. Me and Donald Trump were the only two. Everyone else thought the Iraq war was a great thing. I think it was a disaster. So you and I agree on that as well. In my view. You went. I think your foreign policy has gone too far. So, I mean, let me ask you, is there a military action Trump has undertaken that you agree with? Because I’ve not heard anything.

The Self-Defense Principle

TUCKER CARLSON: A military. Look, I would say it’s really simple. I believe in self-defense. That’s why I keep firearms at home. I think it’s morally justified to defend yourself, your family, your property, your nation. And so to the extent that you can deter a threat through violence, violence always being the least appealing choice, violence always being. If I can finish always being a tragedy, I think you can justify the use of violence in self-defense. That is my personal view and that applies to me and to the country that I live in. Those are my views. That’s not an isolationist view. It’s not an anti-Israel view. It’s not an anti-Semitic view. With apologies. It is, I think, a pretty common sense view. But my problem is that lawmakers in Washington are light on detail with these things and they speak as you do, entirely in moral terms. These people are bad. These people are…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’m not speaking entirely in moral terms. I’m not interested in killing bad guys. I’m interested in killing people who are trying to kill us. If we have, that’s different. I’m not engaging morally.

The Iran Assassination Plot Debate

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you now? Because you told me that the government of Iran is presently trying to assassinate Donald Trump, and then that’s undisputed.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: There’s literally nobody who disputes that fact.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why don’t you support that military action right now against Iran?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We are engaged in military action right now.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why don’t you? Why don’t you support offensive military action?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We’re bombing the crap out of them. Israel is. And we’re supporting them. Israel is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so why shouldn’t the US Military defend its own president? I don’t understand that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, and it goes back to…

TUCKER CARLSON: Because you don’t really believe it’s true. That’s why everyone…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Nobody disputes it. Tucker, did we land on the moon? What other conspiracies do you not believe? Was 9/11 an inside job? I mean, like what?

TUCKER CARLSON: So what? I’ve asked you the names of these people. I’ve actually…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know the name of the Iranian hitman. I know it because the US Military and the intelligence agencies have testified before Congress repeatedly. And what did they say? That Iran is trying to murder Donald Trump and has hired hitmen. Do I know the name of the hitman? No, I’m sorry. And I don’t think we do either. Because we would apprehend them if we knew their name.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why don’t you take it seriously enough to support killing the Ayatollah in response to protect our president? But you don’t. This doesn’t even make any sense. And you’re calling me an isolationist. If I believed that that was true, I would support military action against the government of Iran.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, that’s interesting, because there is literally…

TUCKER CARLSON: You can’t kill our president.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: All right, out of 535 members of Congress, I am not aware of one who disputes that Iran is trying to murder Donald J. Trump. That’s not. Even the looniest Democrat doesn’t dispute that. So. So I don’t. You’re saying if. If you believed what. What is, I think, a fact that they are trying…

TUCKER CARLSON: You think it’s a fact. What is the fact exactly that they’ve hired. In the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Americans.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah. He’s not in Iran. So they haven’t hired hitmen.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. But are they the hitmen American?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, okay.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I’m telling you what. And by the way, I’m not the CIA. I’m not the Department of Defense. I’m telling you what they have told us.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not disputing it. I’m merely saying we are. I’m not. I’m saying the logic train has a massive hole in it. If you believe that’s true, then you should, by definition support killing the people trying to kill our president.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But you don’t support that now, Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m wondering what’s going on here.

Defining Foreign Policy Schools

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Tucker, you took offense to the word isolationist, and I genuinely don’t mean it as a pejorative. I disagree with it. But if you don’t like that term, I don’t know how else to describe what is a coherent foreign policy that says we’re surrounded by two giant nations. By the way, isolationism has long been a school of foreign policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I believe in self-defense. I’m not into the slurs, the anti-Semite stuff. I just don’t like that I’m telling you what I believe.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, but is there a single military action Trump took that you agree with? So do you agree with taking out General Soleimani?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I don’t know. It turned out better than I thought.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I mean, you said at the time it would, like, lead us to World War Three.

TUCKER CARLSON: I thought I was worried about it. I’ve seen that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But that proved not the case.

TUCKER CARLSON: I was wrong, as I have been many times.

The ISIS and Syria Question

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Did you agree with taking out the ISIS caliphate.

TUCKER CARLSON: But my. Well, if we took the ISIS caliphate, why are they running Syria right now? And you’re for that? Why is that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What do you mean? I didn’t say I’m for that.

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t seem to have a problem with it. I did say the ISIS is now running Syria. You’re like, ah, we’ll see.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I mean, I know why, by the way. Push Assad out. Assad toppled.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s hilarious.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You know why?

TUCKER CARLSON: Israel is bad, but no. ISIS runs Syria. But that’s fine. We’ll just kind of wait and see on ISIS.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Not a big deal, you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: Not a big deal. They’re trying to kill Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Hold on a second. I want to get back. You know why I don’t care. And you do your, like, trademark smirky laugh. I know why you don’t care.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you even talking about?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Why don’t I care?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know why. You tell me. Because you think it’s okay. Because they’re not making angry noises or something. But. But by your own standards, ISIS is so immoral that they must die. But now they’re running Syria, and you don’t think that we should take military action against the government of Syria because why? They’re ISIS.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What I said is, I don’t know how good or bad it’ll be. Look, I wasn’t pushing Assad out. He fell. He fell on his own in part because he was heavily supported by Hezbollah. And when Israel took out the Hezbollah leadership, he lost his basis.

TUCKER CARLSON: But the current ISIS leadership you don’t think is bad. You can’t say it’s terrible that ISIS runs a country.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I am concerned about it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Concerned? Aren’t you horrified?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I want to see what they do.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you got a wait and see attitude on ISIS now, on the government of Syria.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They are not actively that I am aware of trying to murder Americans, and that’s a real dividing line. Are you trying to murder Americans or not?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just saying it’s a little weird that we waged this war against ISIS and now they’re running a country in the Mediterranean. I think that people would be very, very upset about that. But you don’t seem to be.

Trump’s Military Actions Against ISIS

SENATOR TED CRUZ: By the way, did you agree with Trump taking out Al Baghdadi, the head of ISIS?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m totally opposed to ISIS and what I care about is results, actually. And if taking out the head of ISIS ends ISIS, I guess I’m for it. But now ISIS runs Syria, so I’m wondering if you’re to you weren’t at the time.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I mean, my point is at the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I’ve taken so many different positions over the years, some of which have been wrong. I really do my best to be honest and correct if they are, and admit that I was wrong. I’m not one of these people who’s like, I’ve always been consistent. No, my views change all the time because the facts change all the time. You’re not going to get consistency from me. You’re only going to get sincerity.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Well, look, I will say this, and look, I believe you’re sincere.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. But I’m not God. I’m just some guy watching, trying to figure out the right thing for America.

The Risk of Escalation

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And I think because you believe you were mistaken, and I agree previously, I think you overcorrected.

TUCKER CARLSON: Overcorrected. I’m worried about turning this mess in Iran into a much larger mess. That’s the concern. And that’s…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: By the way, that’s a reasonable worry.

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, I know it’s reasonable. And I know you’ve been like. You’re, like, ready to call me all these names for asking. You’re just asking questions. Yes, I am. So here’s my question to you. If the Ayatollah is killed in Iran, and he very…

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah, very well could. If there’s a war.

TUCKER CARLSON: I have just read in the paper this morning that Israel tried to take him out twice and Trump told them not to.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I have read that. I don’t have independent confirmation one way or the other.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think that they should take him out?

Cruz Defends Strategic Approach to Iran

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I actually talked about it. As you know, I do a podcast every week, Verdict with Ted Cruz. And I actually talked about it in the latest podcast. And I said, look, I’ve seen the reporting that says that Trump asked them not to take out the Ayatollah. And what I said the podcast is, I think it’s reasonable for them to decide not to try to take him out. What they’ve done is targeted just about the entire top level of the military, the people that actually conduct the war. I can see an argument that taking out both the head of state and a religious leader could make him a martyr and could cause more problems than it’s worth. And by the way, if you take out the Ayatollah, I don’t know if the next guy isn’t just as bad. And so I am.

TUCKER CARLSON: What happens to the country?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know. But you mentioned before, and I want to go back to this, you said something like, you, like most other politicians, are engaged in moral terms. And let me be clear. I am talking about national interest. I am talking about protecting America. So there are bad guys on planet Earth that I don’t think we should take out, even though they’re bad guys. Good, I’ll call them bad guys. But I’m not willing to use US Military force to take them out. In this instance, What Israel is doing is taking out their capacity to build nuclear weapons. Why? Because they judge the risk is too high if they’ve got nuclear weapons.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I understand that. I think it’s in progress. I think it’ll probably be achieved, probably with US military support, who knows? But the President said he’s for that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And by the way, where the military support is most needed is Fordow, which is the under. It’s a bunker that’s built under a mountain.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And Israel’s taken out most of the rest, like the tons, which is their big enrichment site. They bombed the hell out of it. Fordow was deliberately built deep into a mountain so that Israel couldn’t take it out. And there’s an active discussion because the US has bunker buster bombs that are big enough to take out Ford and Israel doesn’t. So the one military piece, nor the.

TUCKER CARLSON: Aircraft to fly them.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Right.

Debate Over Regime Change Goals

TUCKER CARLSON: But here’s. I guess what bothers me is that I said two weeks ago the real goal here is regime change in Iran. It’s not.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t think that’s Trump’s goal.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s your goal, it’s Israel’s goal. I’m not attacking anyone. I’m just saying it’s important to be honest and not lie and not attack people for telling the truth.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I believe I’ve been assiduously honest in this. But words, math matter. You said the real goal here is regime change and it’s your goal. And I want to be clear.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said it was your goal.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I want to be clear because words matter. Do I support regime change and what. I like a government that doesn’t hate America and isn’t trying to kill us in Iran. Yes, that’s a good outcome. Is that the objective of these military strikes? I don’t think necessarily. I don’t know if it’s Israel’s. It’s not my objective.

TUCKER CARLSON: My objective is the US If Israel decides, decides we’re going to decapitate the government and try to foment an uprising against it, should the United States participate in that operation in any way?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, I have not called for killing the Ayatollah. And there is. Nations in war generally refrain from attacking and killing heads of state. Now, the Ayatollah doesn’t. He’s trying to kill Trump. We talked about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: But we shouldn’t punish him for it.

Cruz Outlines Economic Pressure Strategy

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, there has been a longstanding. Nations in war have refrained from killing heads of state. I have not publicly called for killing the ayatollah. What I’ve called for is doing whatever is necessary to stop him from getting nuclear weapons. In the first Trump term, what that meant was maximum pressure. So in the first Trump term, I spent a lot of time urging the president to withdraw from the disastrous Iranian nuclear deal that Obama had. President Trump agreed with me. He did that. And then I urged him to end the oil waivers and to sanction the hell out of the country, and it ended up crippling their economy.

So Iran at the time was selling 1 million barrels of oil a day. When President Trump ended the oil waivers, it cut their sales to 300,000 barrels a day. At the end of the Trump term, the Iranian economy was in shambles. They had massive inflation. I think the regime was teetering. I think it might have fallen. I would use economic sanctions, and I would use moral suasion to try to effectuate.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so you topple the regime and by whatever means, what happens then? How many people live in Iran, by the way?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know the population at all. No, I don’t know the population.

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t know the population of the country you seek to topple?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: How many people living around?

TUCKER CARLSON: 92 million.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: How could you not know that?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t sit around memorizing population tables.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s kind of relevant because you’re calling for the overthrow of the government.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Why is it relevant? Whether it’s 90 million or 80 million or 100 million, why is it relevant?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because if you don’t know anything about the country.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I didn’t say I don’t know anything about.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. What’s the ethnic mix of Iran?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: They are Persians and predominantly Shia.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, you don’t know anything about Iran. So.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. I am not the Tucker Carlson expert on Iran.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re a senator who’s calling.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You’re the one who claims anything about the country. No, you don’t know anything about the country. You’re the one who claims they’re not trying to murder Donald Trump.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not saying that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Who can’t figure out if it’s a good idea to kill General Soleimani. And you said it was bad.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t believe they’re trying to murder Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes, I do.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because you’re not calling for military strikes against them in retaliation.

Clarification on US Military Support

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And if they really believe that carrying out military strikes today. You said Israel was right with our help. I said we. Israel is leading them, but we’re supporting them.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, this, you’re breaking news here because the US Government last night denied. The National Security Council spokesman, Alex Pfeiffer denied on behalf of Trump that we were acting on Israel’s behalf in any offensive capacity.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We’re not bombing them. Israel’s bombing them.

TUCKER CARLSON: You just said we were.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We are supporting Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re a senator. If you’re saying the United States government is attack. We’re with Iran right now. People are listening.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: We are not bombing them.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, okay.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Israel is bombing them. And why do you do the snide? Okay, what do you mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because it’s. This is super high stakes stuff. This is a huge country that borders a lot of other important countries. A lot of world’s energy comes from there. You don’t want another disaster. You don’t want to be recorded.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: The Ayatollah refers to Israel as the Little Satan and America as the Great Satan. Do you believe him when he says it’s the Great Satan? Do you think. Do you think if the Ayatollah could murder both of us right now, that he would? But I do. I believe it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I assume no good faith on the part of the Ayatollah. And if your implication is like, it’s not pro Ayatollah or something.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, no, no. It’s not good faith. It’s that just saying.

Heated Exchange Over Foreign Policy Expertise

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re a lawmaker. You’re a powerful person in Washington. This is the most powerful country in the world. If you’re calling for toppling in government, it’s incumbent on you to know something about the country and to think through the consequences of that. And you haven’t and you don’t. And I’m saying that’s ridiculous. Okay?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: You are. You engage in reckless rhetoric with no facts. And to be clear, I’m not calling you the newsletter. You put out a newsletter attacking Donald Trump and calling him complicit. Yes, you have.

TUCKER CARLSON: And by the way, I campaigned for Donald Trump. This is like after anti Semitism, this is the last refuge. You’re an anti Semit and you hate Trump. I love Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I will read you put out a whole newsletter saying Trump has abandoned America first. And here’s What Trump said in response. Well, considering that I’m the one that developed America first, and considering that the term wasn’t used until I came along, I think I’m the one who decides that for those people who say they want peace, you can’t have peace if Iran has a nuclear weapon. So for all of those wonderful people who don’t want to do anything about Iran having a nuclear weapon, that’s not peace.

TUCKER CARLSON: That was directed at you, man. This is. You got me busted. No, I’m just saying my views. Look, I like Trump. I campaign for Trump. I know Trump. I talked to him last night. I’m not against Trump, and you know that, I think.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But you’re against his foreign policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think that we should be very careful about entering into more foreign wars that don’t help us when our country is dying. When you say our country is dying.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, yes, focus on our country. I’m all for it, but the naivete.

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t even know how much money this costs. You don’t know anything about the country whose government you want to throw overthrow. And you’re calling me reckless?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes. I want to stop a lunatic who wants to murder us from getting nuclear weapons that could kill millions of Americans. You say, I can’t see how that benefits America in any way. That is bizarre. And by the way, isolationism. Your foreign policy is the foreign policy of Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama, and it doesn’t work.

Debate Over Foreign Policy Record

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I’m a big leftist, you mean. This is so silly. Now I’m Jimmy Carter and Barack Obama. Okay, let me just say one last thing.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So how is your foreign policy different from Jimmy Carter’s? Seriously? Please. But may I ask that question seriously?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t even know what you’re talking about. Jimmy Carter. So what century is this? I am the product of the last 25 years, watching carefully, being involved in the periphery. And I see an unending string of foreign policy disasters that have impoverished and hurt our country.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Unending string?

TUCKER CARLSON: An unending string. They would include Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, and our inability to stop the Houthis, by the way, in Yemen, which exposes us as weak. And I grieve over that. So these are failures. You helped preside over some of them as a member of the Senate.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What failures? Foreign policy failures have I presided over?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, we were unable to beat Russia in the war that you supported against Russia. You’ve been spending the last three years telling us that Vladimir Putin is evil and we’re going to beat him with other people’s children and a million of those kids are now dead. You’ve never apologized for that. That was a.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: By the way. Look, the level of number of falsehoods you. You lay out just in one statement are rather.

TUCKER CARLSON: You haven’t supported the war against Russia.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Are rather stunning. So the war against Russia was caused, which I have explained at great detail, by Joe Biden’s weakness.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you supported the war.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: If you want to talk, we talk. Russia and Ukraine. I’m happy to talk about it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think that’s been a success?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, it’s been an absolute disaster.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but you supported it. Shouldn’t you apologize?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, you should apologize. I’m not going to engage in the demanding of apologizing. So I’m going to.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m like, that’s my point. Is all these failures. No one ever says, I’m sorry.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Or do you just throw out like you. If you want to talk, we can talk.

Ukraine War and NATO Expansion

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, I do. I want to know why that seems like a true disaster for the United States. You have supported it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do you believe Joe Biden’s weakness caused the war in Ukraine?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think Joe Biden’s aggression caused it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: His aggression? What aggression?

TUCKER CARLSON: He demanded that Ukraine join NATO. How does that help the United States?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It is a terrible idea. And I have vigorously opposed Ukraine joining NATO.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so that’s what caused the war.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, it’s not. All right, do you want to know what caused the war? Look, you do the dismissive. You’re not actually interested in facts.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re like, okay, okay, tell me. It seems super. You’re absolutely right. And I’m sorry. That is a tick of mine. That is wrong. And I mean this with sincerity. I’m sorry to do that to you. I just think it seems so obvious that sending Kamala Harris to the NATO security conference to say you’re going to join NATO is what triggered the invasion days later.

The Real Causes of the Ukraine War

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, so can I. This will take a few minutes to lay out because it’s complicated, but I think the facts matter. I think two things caused the war in Ukraine. Number one, I think Biden’s incredible weakness and the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. Now, I believe we need to leave Afghanistan, but not with the incompetence that involved. That led to 13 servicemen and women being murdered by terrorists there. The way Biden did that was disastrous. And I think our enemies looked to the commander in chief and said, this president is weak. And when that withdrawal was so disastrous, I said publicly at the time, the chances of Putin invading Ukraine have just risen tenfold.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But secondly, and this is critically Important.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That was awful, the withdrawal, and it was a major cause of our enemies all said, hey, this president is weak. And so it invited. And by the way, look, I despise war. And I think weakness and isolationism produces war because it invites aggression from our bad guys. It’s why I agree with Ronald Reagan’s peace through strength. The best way you avoid war is being strong enough that your enemies don’t want to mess with you. But let’s get back to Ukraine and Russia. Look, Putin didn’t wake up two years ago and decided he wanted to invade Ukraine. He’s wanted to invade Ukraine for decades. Putin has referred to the collapse of the Soviet Union as, quote, the greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century. And Putin has long been explicit. His desire is to reassemble the old Soviet Union and in fact, reassemble the Russian empire. That was even bigger than that. If you want to reassemble the Soviet Union, the natural place to start is Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you really believe that Putin has territorial designs on Eastern Europe?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: What countries?

Putin’s Historical Ambitions and Nord Stream 2

SENATOR TED CRUZ: He has said that. You can go and read his. Hold on. I don’t want to lose the narrative of what happened, so we can go back and do that, but I don’t want to lose telling the story first. So let me explain this, and then if you want to go back, we can take all sorts of digressions, but just give me a couple of minutes to lay out the facts of what happened. He has wanted to invade Ukraine a long time, and he’s done it before. In 2014, he invaded Ukraine, invaded Crimea. When Barack Obama was president, he invaded the southern portion. He did not invade the rest of the country. Why? And the reason is the principal source of revenue for Russia is oil and gas. And the natural gas pipelines run right through the country of Ukraine. And he didn’t want to jeopardize his ability to get gas to Europe.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So in 2015, Putin started a project called Nord Stream 2.

TUCKER CARLSON: Did anything happen in 2014.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: In terms of what?

TUCKER CARLSON: Wasn’t there a coup in Ukraine run by the Obama administration?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Let me finish telling. I told you, we’ll take lots of digressions in a second. Let me finish telling the narrative. 2015, Putin began building Nord Stream 2. Nord Stream 2 is an undersea pipeline that runs from Russia to Germany. The entire purpose of Nord Stream 2 is when it was completed and turned on, it would let Russia circumvent Ukraine and get its gas straight to Europe. In 2019, Nord Stream 2 was almost complete. And the conventional wisdom in Washington was, this is terrible, but there’s nothing we can do about it. I didn’t believe that. So I drafted sanctions legislation that was targeted to stop the pipeline. My legislation passed the Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support. It passed the House and Donald Trump signed it in law.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would Kai says, why wouldn’t you want Germany to have cheap energy?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Because it empowers Russia, and I believe in making our enemies weaker and our friends stronger.

TUCKER CARLSON: Has blowing up Nord Stream made Germany stronger?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Not being dependent on Russia has made Germany stronger.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you think Germany is stronger now than it was four years ago?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I think not being dependent on Russia, Germany has all sorts of problems and many of them are domestic to their own politics. Hold on, let me finish. I’m trying to.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but what you’re saying, Germany seems so much weaker now that its energy costs have spiked and the manufacturing sector is collapsing because of that.

The Pipeline Sanctions and Biden’s Policy Reversal

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Let me finish. I’m focused on America’s interest. I don’t want Russia stronger because I believe Russia is our enemy. You and I disagree on that. We can talk about that, but I want our enemies weaker. I don’t want to go to war with Russia, but I want our enemies weaker. I don’t want Europe dependent on Russia. I don’t want Putin rich with oil and gas revenues and able to invest in his military and pose a threat to America. So the sanctions legislation that I authored, it passed. Putin stopped building Nord Stream 2, literally the day that President Trump signed my sanctions legislation into law. He signed it, if I remember right, at 7:00pm on a Thursday. Putin stopped construction at 6:45pm so the sanctions legislation worked and it killed the pipeline. The pipeline lay dormant for over a year. Just a hunk of metal at the bottom of the ocean. Joe Biden came into office. He was sworn in on January 20, 2021. Putin resumed deep sea construction of Nord Stream 2 four days later, January 24. He did so because Biden had foreshadowed weakness on that this issue. That foreshadowing was accurate because several months later, Biden formally waived the sanctions on Nord Stream 2 and let Putin complete the pipeline. In January of 2022, I forced a vote on the Senate floor to reimpose sanctions on Nord Stream 2. The Week of the vote, President Zelensky in Ukraine publicly called on the Senate, please pass this sanctions legislation. It is the last best hope of stopping Russia from invading Ukraine. At the same time, the government of Poland put out a formal statement from the Foreign Ministry to the Senate calling on the Senate to pass my sanctions legislation and said, if you do not, Putin will invade Ukraine. The day of the vote, Joe Biden came to Capitol Hill. It’s the first time in his presidency he had done that. He went to the Democrat senators lunch and he personally lobbied them on this issue, not any other issue. This was his number one issue that he came to lobby them on. They came out of that lunch. Every Democrat had voted with me twice Against Nord Stream 2. 44 Democrats flipped their votes. They voted in favor of Russia, in favor of Putin, and four weeks later, Russia invaded Ukraine. That was the direct cause of the war. And if Trump had been president, there would be no war.

Questioning the Results of Ukraine Policy

TUCKER CARLSON: So may I ask. I of course disagree with your analysis completely, but I want to be respectful.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So tell me what you disagree with.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s such a long conversation. I’ve spent the last couple of years on this and I just respectfully disagree with your analysis, but I don’t doubt your sincerity that you believe that Putin is our enemy, that Western Europe should not be allowed to use Russian energy. I mean, you seem to really believe these things. My question is about results because I think it’s relevant to what we’re seeing now in Iran. You look back after having you personally voted to send billions and billions and billions of US Tax dollars to Zelensky to support his civil service and the war against Russia and all this stuff, can you say that what you did worked?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I can say what I did personally sanctioning Nord Stream 2 worked and prevented a war. And if Trump had still been there, if the sanction had been in effect, there would be no war. I’m in favor of avoiding wars.

TUCKER CARLSON: But once the war broke out, you voted to fund it to the tune of billions and billions of billions.

Cruz’s Evolving Position on Ukraine Funding

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And to be clear, and did that work? Okay, to be clear, what I voted for, I voted for the initial tranche of funding and then I voted against the substitute subsequent one. So it hasn’t worked. So I’ve been in between. I haven’t been on the full Ukraine full throated hawk side or the anti from day one. I voted for the initial tranche of funding because I wanted Russia to lose. I think the Biden administration administered it in a horrible way. I think they wasted a ton of money and I think what they did was actually incoherent because they were funding both sides of the war and I was very vocal and among other things, flooding $100 million to Iran, which was used, among other things, to help the nuclear program, but also to make drones that Russia Used to fight.

TUCKER CARLSON: So here’s my concern. I’m not going to defend the Biden administration really did a lot to wreck the United States.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: The most damaging administration where we sit now, Russia is stronger. It’s closely allied long term with China.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t know that Russia is stronger. I don’t think that’s right.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I think it’s pretty obvious that it is, but it’s certainly not destroyed. And it’s allied long term with China.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Maybe. Look, there’s no doubt Biden’s foreign policy drove Russia into the arms of China, and that’s what I’m concerning. They also have a long history of atomosity.

Accountability and Lessons Learned

TUCKER CARLSON: Western Europe is weaker and more in debt. The United States is weaker and much more in debt. Look, hold on. Sue and I are agreeing on a lot. We’re agreeing. We’re agreeing. Here’s my question. Have you questioned any of your previous assumptions? Did you play any role in this at all? Are you responsible at all?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Of course. And like you, you said, what have you learned of. Like you, you said you’ve changed your mind. Yeah. I voted for the first funding of the Ukraine war, and I voted against every subsequent funding stream because it wasn’t working. And I looked at what was happening and said, this is not working. And had the money been spent in an intelligent way and not wasted, and had it been successful, I might have been willing to fund more, but it wasn’t successful. So I voted no. And the war is going to end. Look, President Trump campaigned on ending the war. I think he’s frustrated because Putin has been less than eager to reach a deal to end the war. But it’s going to end. You’re not going to see another dollar.

TUCKER CARLSON: He wants to end the war.

Assessment of Zelensky’s Leadership

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I think Zelensky has behaved horribly. I think his Oval Office meeting will go down in history as the worst Oval Office meeting of any leader that has ever come to the Oval Office. I think he behaved like a pompous ass and I think he is unrealistic. I think Zelensky spends his time with Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer in the New York Times, and he believed he was going to the Oval Office as a resist figure. And I think he’s doing real damage to his country right now.

TUCKER CARLSON: You described him many times as a hero.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t believe. I don’t recall ever using the word hero. I will say, look, I’m not a Zelensky cheerleader and I’m not in the business of saying everyone we support has to be a Sage. And everyone we oppose has to be a villain. I’m not in the morality game. I’m in the US interest game. Why did I want Nord Stream 2 stopped? Because it would strengthen Russia, and Russia is our enemies. It’s entirely U.S. interest.

The Nord Stream Sabotage Question

TUCKER CARLSON: Did you support the industrial sabotage against it? Blowing it up?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So I think you believe America did that. Is that right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay. I think the chances of that are zero.

TUCKER CARLSON: You think Russia did it?

The Nord Stream Pipeline Debate

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I think Ukraine did it. Okay. So I don’t know. So I don’t know who did it. In terms of the theories that have been put out there. The idea that Russia blew up their own pipeline never made any sense to me at all. That just. I can’t even articulate why they would do that. The idea that Biden did that. Look, I could see it being in US interest to do that, to blow up Nord Stream 2. I just think Biden was too weak. I don’t believe Joe Biden.

TUCKER CARLSON: But are you in? I guess. You?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So.

TUCKER CARLSON: So that leads Norwegians, the. The Ukrainians, NATO, whatever.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, that seems to, you know, who benefits? And it leads me to think either the Ukrainians blew it up or Ukraine’s allies. I don’t think Biden did because I just. Biden was so weak, I don’t think he would give the order. I. I find that implausible.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re in favor of it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, I was in favor of stopping it. I think. I think blowing it up is. Is a. Was a good thing. So. So I’m. I’m supportive of that. But I don’t think America did that. I don’t think Biden gave that order.

TUCKER CARLSON: But in General Trump giving that order.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But he wasn’t in office.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. And you think that the largest act of industrial sabotage in history helped our allies in Western Europe or other fellow NATO members.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, I got to say, I don’t understand. For some reason, you are really invested in defending Russia, and I don’t get that. I’m not attacking you with that. I’m genuinely like. I don’t get why you’re so passionate about defending Russia.

Accusations and Counter-Accusations

TUCKER CARLSON: Actually, I was defending Western Europe, the home of my ancestors and that, you know, tripling their energy costs and destroying their industrial base. Wait, no, no, no. Not like you just accused me of being an anti Semite, an isolationist, and a Russia lackey. I’ve not called you a neocon once, which you are, but I haven’t.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That’s absurd. Yeah, those neocons that oppose the Iraq war, but like that, that’s okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I haven’t called you that, because name calling.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Well, you just said. Which you are, so you just called that call me that. You just did.

TUCKER CARLSON: I guess what I’m saying is you’re triggered because I use name calling. I get it. I was triggered when you called me names. And I’m triggered once again that you’re calling me a Russia defender when in fact, I’m defending Western Europe. And I don’t think that.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do you think Putin’s our enemy?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, he’s. Well, he’s literally our enemy. You are funding a war against him.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Do you think he is our. No, you’re saying we’re his enemy. Do you think Putin is our enemy?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it is a tragedy that your policies, your policies, specifically yours, helped drive Putin into the arms of China, forming a bloc that’s larger than us.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So you won’t answer that question.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t. He is literally our enemy right now. That is a tragedy for the United States, you’re saying.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But you won’t say he is our enemy and look like. I don’t want to.

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, in what sense? I don’t want to be enemies with Russia. It doesn’t help us at all. It may help some people in the United States, but in general, let me be clear. I don’t want to be.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I don’t want to be at war with Russia. I don’t think it is in our interest with China.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is a disaster.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But listen. No doubt. And I want Russia and China attention. So I agree with you there. But. But I think Putin is a KGB thug. I think he is a bad man. Now, I don’t want to go to war with him over that. But. But I’m not naive. And like, I year.

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s a bad man. He’s a bad man.

The Russian Grocery Store Controversy

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Okay, look, I watched your episode where you went to the Russian grocery store.

TUCKER CARLSON: And was that disloyal, do you think?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It was just weird. It was like a promo video for Russia, and I don’t understand. I’m. Well, I mean, if I’m attacking you when I ask, why. Because I’m genuinely like.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t like when you call me and it’s something. You weren’t attacking me. You were just noticing. No, but may I ask you a question, too? Here. Well, let me just answer yours by saying, the United States, the Biden administration, with your help, full support, began this war on Russia in response to their invasion of Ukraine. And one of the things was, they kicked Russia out of swift, out of the international financial system, and My first response was, this is going to really hurt the US Dollar, which it has, and I hope someday we can have a conversation about that. It’s really, really hurt the one thing that we needed, which was to replace retained dollar supremacy. So I was interested in the. In the economic condition, by the way.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: That’s a reasonable point and a serious conversation.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m aware. I’m aware. And I was.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But I can agree with you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like, like. No, no. But I was accused of being. I think it’s weird that you went to a Russian grocery store and said it was prosperous. No, my point is it looked like a commercial.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: It looked like a commercial. Isn’t this wonderful?

TUCKER CARLSON: It was an argument against the efficacy of sanctions. Sanctions against Russia, which you casually and enthusiastically imposed. Scoring a little moral victory every time had no material effect that helped the United States. Russia is backstopped by China. And when you. And I recommend that you go there and see it, it is way nicer than Washington, D.C. way nicer. To me, that’s a tragedy. I was horrified and angry at my leaders, including you. It’s like, I want to live in a country that’s nice with low food costs and no homeless people. All right, I don’t understand why that’s too much to ask.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So do I.

TUCKER CARLSON: Instead, I get worse with Iran. No, I just want lower food costs. How’s that?

Foreign Policy vs. Domestic Priorities

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So, look, it’s a weird argument that you do often, which is, listen, things are crappy in America. Liberals have done bad things to America, so we shouldn’t worry about any enemies around the world.

TUCKER CARLSON: Don’t care about us. They’re focused on other countries. You wrote that in our country is dying, and you don’t care because you’re focused on Iran or Putin.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So you believe that I don’t care about America? I guess you believe Donald Trump doesn’t either. Like, nobody cares because you’re.

TUCKER CARLSON: That your focus is way too. On other countries. It’s way too focused outward. The money that you send abroad could be used here and should be.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: What money that I send abroad, by the way, I emphatically agree with Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t even know.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I emphatically agree with Donald Trump’s, for example, dramatically slashing usaid. I think the only reason we should be deploying that is to benefit US Interest, national security interest, and keep Americans safe. And. And so how much did you vote.

TUCKER CARLSON: To send to Ukraine?

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Look, you were in about 80 billion.

TUCKER CARLSON: 80 billion.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Yeah. So. So you’re in. You love just giving these broad characterizations that are not accurate. I, I’m. I’m genuinely puzzled. Look, I don’t want to go to war with Russia, but I don’t think they’re our friend. I think Putin.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I think Putin is a murderer. I think he’s a liar and I think he does not wish well on America.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

Personal History and Communist Opposition

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And there’s a difference between saying that, just like Reagan referred to the Soviet Union as an evil empire and Putin was in the KGB. Look, my father was imprisoned and tortured in Cuba. I hate communists. It was actually Batista that tortured my dad. My aunt was imprisoned and tortured by Castro. I hate communists. I think communism is evil. And so I think there is a value to. There is nobody who stands up to communist China more in the Senate than I do because I think they’re evil. Do I want to go to war with China? Of course not. That would be ridiculous. But I think we have all sorts of tools to stand up to our enemies. And I think China is engaged in a thousand year war against the United States. They’re trying to defeat.

TUCKER CARLSON: So all over the map where your family imprisoned in Cuba and China and all this stuff. I just, I agree with you. I’m totally opposed to communism, always have been. I don’t think that Putin loves us. I’m distressed by the moral condition of most leaders around the world. Most of them, they all kill people. I’m against that. I’m just saying I wish the focus here is more on the.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Can I say something? I actually don’t agree with that statement. They all kill people. There’s a moral relativism. So I don’t think Donald Trump is a murderer. He doesn’t kill people.

TUCKER CARLSON: We don’t have concentrations calling Donald Trump a murderer.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And you just said world leaders all kill people. And there’s a moral relativism.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m hardly a moral relativism.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: But you are. You just. That statement was the essence of an.

TUCKER CARLSON: Anti Semite, an isolationist, a more relativist. Okay, no.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Did you just say world leaders all kill people?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m saying I’m against killing people in general.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So.

TUCKER CARLSON: And hyperventilating about how Putin was in the KGB or whatever. I just want to serve American interests. And pushing him to China is not in our interest at all. And you helped do it. And you haven’t apologized.

Moral Distinctions and American Values

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And by the way, you’re the cheerleader. I helped drive him into China. You did lie.

TUCKER CARLSON: You funded the war against him.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I authored the legislation that shut down Nord Stream 2 that prevented the war. And if Trump had still been in the White House, we would have had the war. And look, the comment you made, the reason things like moral relativism are so dangerous. Oh, everyone kills people. No, there is a difference. The United States, we don’t have concentration camps. We don’t torture and murder people. You look at China, where they’ve got a million prisoners in concentration camps. You look at Putin, where he’s got prisoners in Siberia, he tortures and murders his political opponents. Donald Trump doesn’t do that. America doesn’t do that. And by the way, what are you even talking about? Other countries don’t do that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I see the game. It’s like I’m the one, I’m distressed.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: No, I’m responding with facts. You don’t like the facts.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t even know what facts you’re talking about. I’m not, not saying that Trump puts people in concentration camps. I vote, I campaign for Trump. I love Trump.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: So do I.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so this is nothing to do with Trump. I’m merely saying when you said every.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: World leader kills people, it drops more.

TUCKER CARLSON: Emphasis on what’s happening inside the country. That’s it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Is there a moral difference between America and our enemies? Is there a moral joke in America and what is it articulated? It’s valuable to say, why? Why are we a better country founded on better values than China?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ll tell you what.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: And I know, because the whole purpose.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of America is to protect the God given rights that each person possesses by virtue of being created by God.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Amen.

TUCKER CARLSON: By being human. That’s the point of our founding documents. And no other country articulates that in the way that we do. And that’s what I love about America. My family’s been here a long time. I’m never leaving. So I really love the country. Despite going to a Russian grocery store, despite asking questions about aipac. I love America is the truth. And I, and I love Trump. So. But I just want more emphasis on America. That’s it.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: I emphatically agree with America. First, I think Donald Trump does as well and I think his foreign policy has been vigorously protecting that. And I agree with the President.

TUCKER CARLSON: Good. Well, I appreciate your taking all this time.

SENATOR TED CRUZ: Sure.

Closing Remarks

TUCKER CARLSON: And I know you didn’t mean it when you called me those names. Thank you, Senator.

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