Read the full transcript of Professor John Mearsheimer’s interview on Judging Freedom Podcast, August 18, 2026.
EDITOR’S NOTE: In this insightful interview on Judging Freedom, Judge Andrew Napolitano speaks with renowned political scientist Professor John Mearsheimer about whether Russian President Vladimir Putin’s patient strategy in Ukraine is yielding results. Mearsheimer analyzes Russia’s territorial advances, economic pressures on Ukraine, and the contrasting Western and Russian interpretations of the conflict—particularly NATO expansion as an existential threat—while also touching on broader U.S. foreign policy challenges. The discussion offers a realist perspective on the shifting geopolitical landscape and the long-term implications for all parties involved.
Introduction
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Hi everyone, Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Tuesday, August 18th, 2026. Professor John Mearsheimer will be with us in just a moment. Is President Putin’s patience paying off?
Professor Mearsheimer, good day to you, my friend. Thank you, of course, for being here and giving us all of your time.
Before we get to President Putin’s strategy and how things are going in the special military operation, a couple of other questions, if I may, on recent events. Over the weekend and again as recently as last night, President Trump threatened to bomb the you-know-what out of Oman. A country historically allied with the United States and one that is actually serving from time to time as a mediator between Iran and the United States. What do you make of this?
Trump, Oman, and North Korea
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: It’s hard to make sense of it, to argue that there’s some coherent strategy behind what he’s doing. What’s going on here is that Trump is in a disastrous situation. He’s gotten himself into a war that he cannot win in any meaningful way. He can’t find an off-ramp where he can say that we have been even semi-successful. We’re going to suffer a significant, if not catastrophic, defeat in Iran. It’s quite clear that the Iranians are in the driver’s seat.
All of this is to say that he made a huge blunder entering into this war, and as a result, he’s flailing around. He’s blaming other people. He’s lashing out at other countries. He’s making policy statements, for example, with regard to North Korea, that make no sense at all. So President Trump is in deep trouble, and this is just a manifestation of that.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: What did he say about North Korea?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: He’s trying to kiss up to North Korea now.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: North Korea, not South Korea. North Korea.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: He’s actually kicking the South Koreans, our allies, in the shins, and at the same time, playing up to the North Koreans. You remember he tried to have good relations with Kim Jong-un and the North Koreans in his first administration, and he was bent on denuclearizing North Korea. The chances of that happening are zero, but anyway, it didn’t happen in his first term, and now he’s angry at the South Koreans.
One of the reasons, by the way, is that he asked the South Koreans for help in the Gulf in the war against Iran, and the South Koreans wisely said they wanted no part of this escapade. That angered him, and to get back at the South Koreans, he’s done two things. One, he’s playing nice again with the North Koreans, and secondly, we have a major joint operation that is now taking place with the South Koreans, and he has significantly reduced the scope of that joint operation with South Korea because he does not want to offend or scare the North Koreans. This is just not the way you treat allies.
And by the way, if you put this into a broader context, the United States is deeply interested in containing China, and to do that, we need all the help we can get from the South Koreans, especially since we are pivoting away from East Asia to the Persian Gulf.
You know, this whole disaster with the USS Abraham Lincoln that has led us to pull the Lincoln out of the Gulf means we have to replace it with a new aircraft carrier. And the new aircraft carrier that they’re going to replace the Lincoln with is the USS George Washington. Where is that coming from? It’s coming from Japan. Its home port is Japan.
We have a situation now where we have no carriers in East Asia. And you want to understand that East Asia is a theater that depends heavily on air power and naval power. We’ve already pulled all sorts of THAADs and Patriots out of East Asia, and here we are now pulling the only carrier we have out there out of East Asia. And at the same time, President Trump is kicking the South Koreans in the shins. The South Koreans, by the way, are among our most loyal allies. So this makes no sense at all, just like it makes no sense to be threatening to attack Oman.
The USS Abraham Lincoln Controversy
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Oh, but Professor Mearsheimer, the reports of problems on the USS Abraham Lincoln — that’s all fake news according to the president. We’ll play his clip in a minute, but before the Abraham Lincoln departs wherever it is, lacking in deodorant and toothpaste and food, it managed to give everybody on board a scoop of ice cream, as if there were puppy dogs that were misbehaving. So you’re going to give them ice cream — that’s the way Hegseth treats his troops. Here’s President Trump on this yesterday. Chris, cut number 10.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
PRESIDENT TRUMP: That was a CNN fake report. The Lincoln has been out there for a period of time, a good period of time. But over the years, we’ve had them out there much longer. I was at a group meeting and an admiral came up to see me over the weekend, and it was at a big group, and he happened to be an admiral, retired.
He said, “I’ve been on ships that are out there much longer than that, sir.” And I know people on the Lincoln — they say it’s beautifully maintained and beautifully taken care of. And other people went out, and they found out it to be true. It was fake news reporting from CNN.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Well, they had seven suicide attempts, two of which didn’t succeed, but they did jump off the ship and were transported to naval mental institutions in San Diego. Have you ever heard of anything like this in your years in the military?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, no, but what’s really shocking is the comments that President Trump just made — they’re at complete odds with hard facts. There’s just no question that the conditions on the Lincoln were abysmal, and we know what the reason is for that. And we know that there is a lot of evidence of fights among the sailors, that some sailors were threatening to jump off the side of the ship and possibly commit suicide. The evidence is just overwhelming.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Is one of the reasons for all of these problems that their home port — the place where they would go, I guess, for R&R and to get supplies — in Bahrain, was destroyed by the Iranians in response to our bombing of Tehran? Do I have that right?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Yes, there’s no question about that. That is not the only cause of the trouble, but it is the principal cause in my opinion. The Fifth Fleet headquarters were in Bahrain, which is obviously inside the Persian Gulf, and you’re not going to take an aircraft carrier into the Persian Gulf, and it’s hard to get supplies from Bahrain out to the Lincoln and the other ships as well. It’s not just the Lincoln that has this problem — other ships have the problem as well.
So what we had to do was rely on Diego Garcia, which is many thousands of miles away, to serve as a supply port in place of Bahrain. And that just did not work very well. And when you take that fact and marry it to the fact that this ship was deployed for a long, long period of time, you have a prescription for real trouble. And you had real trouble.
Trump really didn’t have much choice but to keep the carrier there. We don’t have a very large Navy anymore. This is not like the Navy that existed right after World War II, or even the Navy that existed in the 1980s when the Reagan administration was emphasizing the importance of the maritime strategy and having a 600-ship Navy. Those days are gone.
So we have a very small Navy, and as somebody in the Wall Street Journal commented, we used to have 15 carriers, we now have 11 carriers, and we operate those 11 carriers as if we had a 15-carrier Navy. This is to say we have the pedal to the metal with the Navy, and we’re running the Navy into the ground.
And by the way, just to switch gears slightly here, the administration is now relying on a naval blockade to throttle the Iranian economy, bring the Iranians to their knees, get them to surrender to us. Well, naval blockades by definition are protracted processes — you have to have a blockade on for a long period of time to bring another country to its knees. And the question you have to ask yourself is, given the state of the U.S. Navy, is it in shape for a protracted blockade? Can we keep a blockade on for months and months and months? I think the answer is no.
Kushner, Netanyahu, and the Board of Peace
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Yesterday, in Tel Aviv, Jared Kushner, the president’s son-in-law and real estate agent, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, and Tony Blair met. What was this all about?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, this is all related to the Board of Peace, and the Board of Peace is interested in bringing a settlement to the conflict in Gaza between Israel and the Palestinians, or to put it more specifically, between Israel and Hamas. Jared Kushner was sent over there as a representative of the Board of Peace to see if he could get the Israelis to show at least some interest in working out a deal with Hamas to put an end to the genocide in Gaza. And Tony Blair, who is bought and owned by the Israelis, was along for the ride.
And needless to say, this is going nowhere. I find it hard to take this seriously. Does anybody really believe that Jared Kushner is going to be able to push the Israelis in a way that gets them to cooperate with the United States, with the Board of Peace, to reach some sort of deal with Hamas? What the Israelis are interested in doing is ethnically cleansing Gaza. What they’re interested in doing is driving the Palestinians out. And that’s what the genocide was all about.
I would remind you that about a week ago, Doctors Without Borders issued a report, and they said in that report that Israel is engaged in a deliberate effort to make existence itself in Gaza impossible. Just think about those words. This is from Doctors Without Borders: Israel is engaged in, quote, “a deliberate effort to make existence itself in Gaza impossible.” Well, if that’s what Israel is up to, what in God’s name is Jared Kushner and Tony Blair going to be able to do to convince Benjamin Netanyahu to do a 180-degree turn? The answer is he’s not going to be able to do anything.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: They were just there, in my view, to legitimate what Netanyahu is doing.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: It’s a charade.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: This is a—
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: It’s a joke. And when you listen to the mainstream media report on what’s going on in these negotiations, you would think that Israel is just a normal state that’s trying its very best to work out some sort of arrangement with these lunatic terrorists in Hamas, and that every Palestinian is basically Hamas material. It’s just crazy.
Itamar Ben-Gvir’s Remarks
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Well, and then of course you have Itamar Ben-Gvir. I wasn’t going to play it, it’s so repellent, but we’ll play it again. This is what he said over the weekend. Chris.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
ITAMAR BEN-GVIR: Oh, that’s no secret. I disagreed with the Prime Minister. I think we need to carry out targeted killings in Gaza every night — take out 30 or 40, not just those who pose an immediate threat to you. There are people there who shouldn’t be alive. They shouldn’t be living. They are not people.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: This is the head of their equivalent of the FBI.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Right. This just supports the point that Israel is a genocidal state. It’s bent on eliminating the Palestinians from Gaza, and killing Palestinians is part of the warp and woof of daily life for most Israelis. Most Israelis have no problem with what Ben-Gvir says. You haven’t heard any outrage.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Well, you would think people would have moral qualms, serious moral qualms about what he said. I mean, he sounded like the Nazi leaders during World War II, whom I’m sure he would condemn.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I don’t know what to say. He does sound like the Nazi leaders from World War II, although I would say they were not as gleeful about what they were doing as he appears to be.
Iran’s Nuclear Program: Intelligence Disputes
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Yeah, all right. Another report over the weekend — that Israeli military intelligence, not Mossad, Israeli military intelligence agreed with the CIA and told Prime Minister Netanyahu, as the CIA told President Trump — we’re back now five, six months ago — that Iran did not have, was not developing, nuclear weapons. And just as Trump rejected the CIA in favor of Mossad, Netanyahu rejected the IDF military intelligence in favor of Mossad. Does this surprise you?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: No, not at all. I think the evidence was overwhelming that Iran did not have a nuclear weapon and that Iran was not moving to acquire a nuclear weapon. But the fact is that Netanyahu and the lobby here in the United States were so effective at making that argument — that it did have a nuclear weapon, or it was on the threshold of gaining a nuclear weapon — that people believed it. And Trump, I think, believed it. I think Trump believed the Israelis when Netanyahu told him that Israel had good intelligence that said Iran is bent on acquiring a nuclear weapon and is a hop, skip, and a jump away from acquiring one.
Putin, Ukraine, and NATO Expansion
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Wow. Let’s switch to a discussion of President Putin and Ukraine, and we’ll use this as the launching pad for it. Over the weekend, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov, in a lengthy interview he gave, reminded the West that the Russians consider the efforts to use Ukraine as a battering ram as part of the long historical efforts by the West. He mentioned Napoleon, he mentioned Hitler, he mentioned the Banderites in Ukraine to destabilize Russia, to divide it into various countries. To them, this is not a petty border dispute — this is existential. Do you think the West understands that?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: No, I don’t. I think that the West believes that Putin is an imperialist, and the reason that he attacked Ukraine was because he’s interested in creating a greater Russia. And what he wants to do is conquer all of Ukraine and integrate that into this greater Russia. And then what he’s going to try to do is attack and conquer countries in Eastern Europe, and in a very important way emulate what the Soviets did in creating an empire in Eastern Europe. This is the story you hear over and over in the West, both in the United States and in Europe, and people just believe it.
But that’s not what’s going on here. What has happened here is that Russia views NATO expansion into Ukraine as an existential threat, and what’s happened since the war broke out back in February 2022 is that Europe and the United States have gone to enormous lengths to help Ukraine defeat Russia, to in effect knock Russia out of the ranks of the great powers. And this just confirms what the Russians believed before the war started — that the United States and the Europeans were interested in bringing Ukraine into the alliance and using Ukraine as a launching pad to get at Russia and to do enormous damage to Russia, maybe break it apart, but at least knock it out of the ranks of the great powers. So it’s hardly surprising that Lavrov is making the argument that the West is an existential threat to Russia, because he’s absolutely correct.
The Status of the Special Military Operation
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: What is the status of the special military operation as we speak, Professor Mearsheimer? And I’m not going to ask you to put a date or a number on it — that would require clairvoyance. Are you able to evaluate how close the Russians are to achieving their military objectives?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, they say their military objectives include incorporating the four oblasts that they now occupy in large part into Russia. And to do that, they have to conquer some territory that Ukraine still controls in those four oblasts. What you see taking place in the Donbas today is a Russian effort to finish the job and conquer all the territory in the two oblasts that comprise Donbas, and then they have to finish conquering all the territory in Zaporizhzhia as well.
I think there’s no question the Russians are going to succeed in conquering all the territory that comprises those four oblasts, and then the question is whether they go beyond that and conquer further territory in oblasts like Odessa and Kharkiv. I think the Russians have powerful incentives to do that. Whether they have the capability to do that remains to be seen, but I think there’s no question in my mind that the Russians will end up conquering all the territory in the four oblasts that they now control, or have now formally annexed.
And then furthermore, what they’re doing, and this is very important, is they’re turning Ukraine into a dysfunctional rump state. The bombing campaign that’s now taking place in the Odessa area has basically turned Ukraine into a landlocked country. Ukraine can no longer use the ports on the Black Sea that were of vital importance for its economic health.
So what’s happening here is that the Russians are now strangling the Ukrainian economy in ways that they were not up until two months ago, and this is going to have devastating consequences. The World Bank just put out a report that said about 41% of Ukrainians are living beneath the poverty line, and as people talk about all the time, the Ukrainians are facing a demographic crisis of massive proportions. So this is a country that is slowly but steadily being wrecked. It is already a dysfunctional rump state, and the Russian goal is to make it even more of a dysfunctional rump state.
So what I’m saying here is you want to look at what’s happening on the battlefield, and although the Russians are moving slowly, they’re inexorably conquering territory that once belonged to Ukraine, and they’re going to end up annexing and controlling completely four oblasts and maybe more. And at the same time, they’re turning Ukraine into a dysfunctional rump state.
Will NATO Ever Enter Ukraine?
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: How can the Russians be sure that NATO never enters what will remain of Ukraine once the hostilities are concluded?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, they can never be sure of that, and that’s why they will go to great lengths to make sure that Ukraine is as weak as possible and as dysfunctional as possible. It’s why they will go to great lengths to sow dissension among European countries regarding relations with both Ukraine and Russia, and it’s why they’ll go to great lengths — this is the Russians — to sow dissension between the Europeans and the Americans. They’ll do everything they can to wreck NATO.
And by the way, this war has done great damage to NATO. But there are going to be poisonous relations between Russia on one side and the West and Ukraine on the other side for as far as the eye can see. And because of the possibility that you raise — which is NATO eventually bringing Ukraine into the alliance — the Russians will be incentivized to go to great lengths to make sure that doesn’t happen, and they will do that by going after the West and going after transatlantic relations and going after relations between Ukraine and both the United States and the Europeans.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Is President Putin correct to be fearful of NATO, or is NATO now toothless?
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: Well, it’s not toothless, and it’s been greatly weakened, but the fact is he’s still engaged, as we speak, in a bitter war with Ukraine and the West. If this was a war simply between Ukraine and Russia, it would have been won long ago by the Russians. The reason that Ukraine has been able to hang in the fight is because of all the support that it’s gotten from the West. So the fact is that NATO is still alive, it’s still engaged in this fight, and it’s causing Putin enormous problems. Putin would have liked to have ended this war years ago, and the fact that it’s still going on is not something I’m sure he’s happy about. And the reason it’s still going on, as I see it, is in large part because the Europeans and the Americans continue to back Ukraine.
Closing
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Professor Mearsheimer, thank you very much, my dear friend. At 10 this morning Eastern Time, which is 32 minutes from now, I will be interviewing the two authors, Eli Clifton and Ian Lustick, of this new book, Israel’s Lobby, which I gather picks up where yours and Steve Walt’s ends.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I’ve read the book, and it’s a superb book, and it actually goes quite a distance beyond the book that Steve and I wrote. Obviously, there’s a lot of similarities between the two books, but they’re dealing with a very different world in terms of U.S.-Israeli relations and the position of the lobby in the United States today than the one that Steve and I were dealing with back in the day. So their book is a significant advance on what Steve and I wrote, and I would urge all viewers of the program to go out and buy a copy of their book and read it very carefully, because it says all sorts of important things that are very important for understanding American foreign policy today.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Well, given who you are in academia and in this geopolitical world, I’m sure they will be thrilled at what you just said, and I’ll make sure that they’re aware of it. I don’t know them, but I’m looking forward to this. Thank you, Professor Mearsheimer, a pleasure. You and I will be seeing each other in the next couple weeks, but I’ll see you here next week as planned.
JOHN MEARSHEIMER: I look forward to it, Judge.
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Thank you, Professor, all the best. And as mentioned, if you’re watching us live, in 30 minutes, Eli Clifton and Ian Lustick, authors of Israel’s Lobby. And then at 2 this afternoon, Matthew Hoh, and at 3 this afternoon, Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski. This has been Judging Freedom.
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