# Arnab Goswami Interviews Jeffrey Sachs: Trump’s 500% Tariff Threat and India’s Strategic Future
Brief Notes: Arnab Goswami sits down with renowned economist and global policy analyst Jeffrey Sachs for a high-stakes conversation on Donald Trump’s threat to slap up to 500% tariffs on countries, including India, that continue buying Russian oil and other energy products.
Sachs blasts the proposed tariff regime as “thuggish” and economically destructive, arguing it weaponizes trade to coerce India, China, and other BRICS nations instead of pursuing genuine diplomacy. He urges New Delhi to stop “playing the US game,” rethink its role in US-led groupings like the Quad, and lean into a more multipolar world where India acts as an independent superpower alongside partners such as China and Russia.
Throughout the discussion, Arnab presses Sachs on whether India should fear Trump’s threats or see them as an opportunity to assert sovereignty, diversify alliances, and shield its economy and energy security from Washington’s unpredictability.
Opening Remarks and Trump’s Tariff Threat
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Just going to take a detour. William, I’m sorry to interrupt. I’m taking a short detour. I’m just taking a short detour for a moment. Tatiana, Ajay, Einar, bear with me, William, because I have a short one-on-one scheduled right now with the great Jeffrey Sachs.
He’s a global luminary on policy, geostrategy, economics, professor at Columbia University and former director of the Earth Institute and senior adviser at the UN. Thank you very much, Dr. Sachs. It’s a great pleasure and privilege, in fact, to have you on Republic this evening.
JEFFREY SACHS: Well, the privilege is mine, so thank you very much.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Thank you, sir. All of you know your timing of your appearance on Republic couldn’t have been better because we’ve heard that Trump has approved a bill to punish those who buy uranium or petroleum products from Russia. According to this bill, of which I’ve seen a draft, at least 500% tariffs should be imposed on these countries.
This is going into the unreal sphere. First question: is he likely to do something as drastic, in your view?
Trump’s Instability and Constitutional Crisis
JEFFREY SACHS: With Trump, things are out of control. He’s invading countries. He’s threatening countries. He left more than 50 treaties and UN organizations today. He’s a psychologically unstable person in a political system that has broken down in the United States.
So we don’t have constitutional control. Tomorrow it is said that the Supreme Court might rule on the legality of Trump’s overall tariff system. If the court is honest, which is a big assumption, of course, in the US these days—but if the court turns out to be honest, it will strike down all of what has happened up until now because Trump has grossly abused his power.
This is unconstitutional what he has been doing. It is illegal, but he’s gotten away with it because we are not in a constitutional order in the United States right now. We are in some combination of rule by the security apparatus and a very intemperate president.
India, China, and the Multipolar World
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Now, you have said “don’t play the American game.” India is too big for the US game. My question is that you also said recently that India and China ought to get along in view of this strategic unpredictability of the Trump administration.
What shape do you believe such an arrangement can take, given that there are already, you know, we have a long history of tensions with and trust issues with China and likewise, perhaps? And how would it serve India’s interests in the long term and the aftermath of the Trump era? Are we to try and get along with China or is China to try and get along with us? Are you looking at an arrangement only for the Trump period or a long-term understanding?
JEFFREY SACHS: Oh, absolutely, for a long term. Because we should be moving and we can be moving to a truly multipolar and multilateral world. I’ve urged China very strongly to press for, and I think it would work, India to have the sixth permanent seat at the UN Security Council. I think this is extremely important to save the UN.
So I want India to have a permanent seat in the Security Council. I want China to support that, and I want India and China to resolve their disputes because the main objective of the two should be to create a multipolar world that is not dominated by the United States or dominated by the West, because that’s passé.
And in order for that to happen, that requires cooperation. The BRICS is a great format for that, but for the United States, up until this year, it was trying to play India: “You join us against China.”
One of the policies I really, really think is misguided for India, I’m sorry to say, is the Quad. What is India doing in the Quad? India is a great power. It should not be part of an American game because that is disadvantageous for India. It’s disadvantageous for a multipolar world. It’s disadvantageous for stability.
The Quad is an American game and India is too great a country to play an American game. Now, I think everyone sees—I’ve been saying it for a long time and friends in India didn’t quite believe me—the United States is unstable. It is irresponsible, it’s actually dangerous. And this, I think, has to be taken to heart. I’m sorry to say it is a reality right now.
The Argument for Waiting Out Trump
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Professor Sachs, there are some people in India, you know, who always favor a longer-term, deeper understanding with America and look upon our alignments either with Russia or China on the one side or with America on the other.
And given that many people, historically over the years, people, influential people in politics and business have been leaning towards America, their argument is this, Professor Sachs: that look here, this is a temporary situation. Don’t go versus America because of Trump, because Trump is going to be a lame duck after the midterm elections.
I don’t think so.
I just began by saying in my lead tonight that I think Trump is so erratic he’s going to want a third term. So I believe it’s a long-term problem. But what would you say to those Indians who would say, listen, just hold your cards, do nothing as of now?
Trump as Symptom, Not Cause
JEFFREY SACHS: Well, I would say one thing. Trump is a symptom. He’s not only a cause, okay? That a man like that could be elected and reelected is a symptom of a broken political system. And the American political system is broken in two fundamental ways.
One is that it is, in fact, a military security state when it comes to foreign policy. It has nothing to do with Congress. It has nothing to do with legal oversight. Congress is supposed to be the one that declares war. But you see, Trump is the one that does what he wants. And when a congressman says, “Well, that’s unconstitutional,” he sneers at the Congress. And that’s the end of the story right now.
Now, that’s a long story. We could go back to 1947 with the creation of the CIA to understand that story. I’ve lived it my whole life. We have a deep state. That is the security state. That’s not a fiction. That is the military-industrial complex, the one that President Eisenhower warned us about on January 17, 1961, in his farewell address. And it’s real, it exists, and it is out of control. That’s number one.
The system is also broken because it’s unbelievably corrupt. The last election cycle was a $16 billion election cycle. Silicon Valley decided who the vice president would be. They sat Trump down next to JD Vance, the donors, and they said, “Here’s your vice president, Mr. President.” This is a corrupt system.
So to think that Trump is the end of the story is a misunderstanding. Even the attempt, by the way, to overthrow the Maduro government goes back more than 20 years. These are long-term projects. The idea of capturing Ukraine for the West is a long-term project. It goes back already to Bush Jr., to Obama, who oversaw a coup or the US participation in a coup in February 2014, to the NATO enlargement.
These are long projects of the military-industrial state. And Trump, of course, is in a giddy, extraordinarily dangerous state of mind right now. So I don’t deny that we’re in something absolutely unusual. It’s extreme. But the fact that he’s there is itself a reflection. I’m sorry to say it. I’m an American, I live there. But I’m sorry to tell you it’s not a simple situation that’s just going to go away with the midterms.
And for India, India is a great country. It’s the largest, most populous country in the world. It should not be playing the games of an unstable country. Now, of course, India has so many wonderful people living in the United States, going to school in the US and so forth. I understand all of that. But from a foreign policy point of view, India’s interest is in a multipolar world where India plays a leadership role. And that can be done with China, with Russia, with other regions.
India’s Opportunity in the Global South
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Yeah, I in fact said that a while back. I was just saying that this is a great opportunity for us to position ourselves as a more credible leading power in the Global South.
I frankly don’t know much about the Beltway blob, as they are called, about how these people who function in the administration or the bureaucracy in the US—we call them informally the deep state—how they are functioning. But I have followed very closely some of the things you’ve said and I think you’ve been extremely on the ball on that.
I personally, Professor Sachs, don’t know whether Trump has captured the deep state or whether the deep state has captured Trump. But in the context and the fact—
JEFFREY SACHS: If I may say, it is the latter, actually. It is the deep state.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: You think?
The Deep State and the War Machine
JEFFREY SACHS: Yes. The way that it works is we have a war machine. It’s a trillion-dollar-a-year war machine. It’s got 750 to 800 overseas military bases in about 80 countries. It’s got the CIA everywhere. It’s got the National Endowment for Democracy, it’s got the National Democratic Institute. I know these. I’ve watched it close up for 40 years.
It plays a role. It’s got the dollar role through the sanctions system, through SWIFT and so forth. That’s the system. The only way the US actually operates normally is if a president at least is on the ball to keep a foot on the brake.
Who’s one really tried to stop it, by the way? John F. Kennedy. And there’s a good reason to believe they killed him for it. But the other presidents sometimes tried to slow down this war machine. And Trump now is giddy that he’s going to unleash it.
He’s threatening everybody. He’s threatening, of course—he’s gone to war with Venezuela, he’s threatening Canada, he’s threatening Mexico, he’s threatening Colombia, he’s threatening Denmark, he’s threatening Iran, he’s threatening Nigeria. We haven’t seen this. But basically underpinning all of this is a military-industrial machine which is pervasive in the US political context when it comes to foreign policy.
Regime Change Operations: Venezuela, Bangladesh, and Beyond
ARNAB GOSWAMI: That’s going to be a big debate. If I were to start what you just said, whether Lee Harvey Oswald was working for the American deep state—so I’ll swerve away from that one to a point that’s very relevant for our audiences in India.
Professor Sachs, in some of my recent commentaries, I have tried to draw a comparison between what has happened in Venezuela in the context of our region to what happened in Bangladesh. You’ve also spoken about it. To what happened in Nepal, and despite my own personal animosities and anger with the support to terrorism by Pakistan, to what has happened in Pakistan with Imran Khan. You have also spoken about it.
I think yours is one of the best commentaries on the way in which America has carried out regime change. Now, India is too big, too large for them to try to do something. Knowing—and you understand everything very well: the deep state, America, politics, their intelligence agency, everything, delegitimized operations, you know, civil society, quote-unquote, funding street unrest, anarchy.
I’m of the view that we have a prime minister who is very forthright about nation first, and as you may have observed, is not going to compromise on nation first. But what are the threats? What are the things we should watch out for in the context of Bangladesh, Nepal, Venezuela, and the general mindset in the Trump administration?
Warning Against US-Funded NGOs
JEFFREY SACHS: Well, let me just say, if I were any leader in any country or if I were advising them, I would say do not allow the National Endowment for Democracy, the National Democratic Institute, the National Republican Institute, and similar agencies to be funding operations within your country.
Because this is a game. This is not some benign role. This is a game of influence. This is a game often of destabilization. And it’s been played dozens and dozens of times. If you know how to watch for it, you can see it, like you say, in so many places.
The United States said, “Imran Khan has to go.” And within 30 days, he was gone. He’s still in jail on absolutely absurd, tragic charges—tragic from his individual point of view. And I think for the stability of this region.
And in Venezuela, this was an ongoing project. I’ve watched it close up. There’s so many lies that are told in the US, by the way. One president, the president of Haiti, said to me at one point, “They’re going to take me out.” And I rather naively said, “No, no, Mr. President, we’re not going to allow this to happen.”
And one day, the American ambassador literally knocked on his door, said, “Mr. President, to save your life, you have to get in this airplane.” And the next time that the man touched the ground, he was in the Central African Republic, having been deposed by the United States.
And I just want to add, I called the New York Times station chief in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, and said, “Well, are you going to write about this? A coup just took place in broad daylight.” She said, “Oh, my editor is not very interested in that story.”
So this game is played all over the world. It should not be played. It’s deadly. This kind of destabilization has to end. But now Trump says, “I don’t have to hide it. I’m just king of the world. I can do what I want. I own Venezuelan oil, I want Greenland. Canada is our 51st state.” This is very serious. I want people to understand.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: What about India?
India as a Superpower: Breaking Free from US Influence
JEFFREY SACHS: Because, well, India is a superpower. India just needs to keep its head on straight. It can’t be threatened by the United States. But it shouldn’t be playing a US game either.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Why do you say that? Why do you feel we are playing a US game?
JEFFREY SACHS: Well, the Quad, to my mind, is a US—
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Do you think we should get out of the Quad, Professor?
JEFFREY SACHS: Absolutely. I don’t think there’s any role in doing that.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: You know, provoke Trump even further, America even further. You just walk out of the Quad. Can you do that?
JEFFREY SACHS: The United States has no credible threat on India. India is a superpower. And the BRICS, by the way, I like the BRICS a lot. I think it’s extremely important that half the world has come together to say, “We want multilateralism, we want multipolarity, we don’t want to be bossed around by the United States.”
We want just a normal world. Because the BRICS is actually behaving very responsibly. India has the presidency of the BRICS this year, and the BRICS can send a message to the 85% of the world that is not the US and Europe and a couple of other allies.
India’s Moment: An Opportunity for Leadership
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Are you saying, sorry, but are you saying, Professor Sachs, that this is India’s moment? It’s actually, this could be India’s opportunity. It could be an opportunity for Prime Minister Modi.
JEFFREY SACHS: Of course. I love this country. It should be clearly one of the leaders of global stability because it’s a very important country and it’s going to be more and more important, and it’s going to be in the top two economies of the world in the next 25 years.
And the United States, you’re going to look back and it’s one fourth the size of this country in population, and it has no right to boss anyone around, but it can’t boss India around. And so all I’m saying is that India, the idea that the US and India and Japan and Australia are working together to contain China is not in India’s interest.
India’s interest is a bilateral relationship with your counterpart. And I truly believe, by the way, that the issues which have inflamed things between China and India, of course they date back to 1914, to the McMahon line and so forth. These are solvable issues compared to the real stakes in the world today, where India and China have absolutely a common agenda to build a stable multilateral, multipolar world where the interests of India and China are as aligned as can be.
Pakistan: A Cautionary Tale of US Friendship
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Last year you quoted Henry Kissinger and you said, “To be an enemy of the United States is dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal.” If I were to ask you to put that in context of Pakistan’s growing friendship, the military government, there’s growing friendship with the US who see themselves as friends of the US, that’s my first question to you.
How do you view Pakistan and the crypto deals between the Trump family, the open crypto deals between the Trump family and the Pakistani military establishment? How do you view that and how do you think that’s going to play out?
JEFFREY SACHS: Pakistan is sad, very sad because it needs economic development and social development and a long term framework so that it can develop, not short term games of listening to the US military or enriching the President of the United States.
So this is the real drama, which is Pakistan from an economic development point of view has been lost for a long, long time. And it’s a drama with so many people and with the nuclear power. It’s a real drama.
The United States, of course, I think it’s obvious to say, cares nothing about Pakistan or Pakistan’s development. This is my main point. The United States, I’m sorry to say it, doesn’t care about any other place, and so it uses these places, but it leaves them in a wreckage. And Pakistan is in a wreckage economically and from a development point.
The Long Game: Energy, Oil, and Global Brinkmanship
ARNAB GOSWAMI: I have two points, one last question and then, you know, Professor Sachs, a pleasure to hear you tonight. We have four prominent voices from four countries who are listening on to this, who are my panelists. I told them just wait, I’ve got Professor Sachs and they’re listening on closely.
So after my next question I’ll allow a comment on what you’ve said, if you allow. We have Tatiana Kukareva, Russia. We have got with us this evening Inar Tangan, who represents the Chinese point of view. We have the great Ajay Bhaga, a great macro voice from Mumbai joining us this evening on the program. So they’re going to be joining us as well in just a moment tonight.
And before that, my last question to you this evening is that you’ve seen what happened yesterday. I mean, I’m always in our newsroom, we are always on the edge. When we saw the tanker being taken over, the Russian flagged oil tanker in the North Atlantic. This game of dice that Trump thinks he has the upper hand on, you know, do you think everyone could come together and counter him?
Because this is a long term battle for energy and for oil. Nobody is going to back off. Russia is not going to back off. China is not going to back off. India is not going to back off. So it’s a lot of brinkmanship by Trump where he feels he holds the cards now, but could it just swing the other way?
Trump’s Thuggery: Economics vs. Brute Force
JEFFREY SACHS: First of all, Trump doesn’t hold the cards.
ARNAB GOSWAMI: You don’t think?
JEFFREY SACHS: Because real economics is about skills. It’s about technology, it’s about educating young people. It’s about building infrastructure. It’s not about invading countries, seizing tankers, claiming that Venezuela is ours. This thuggery means nothing from an economic point of view for the United States. It’s just thuggishness, that’s all.
There’s no merit or benefit for the United States in it. It’s only harm. And so, and of course it’s reckless, it’s dangerous. It’s shocking to be seizing vessels on the high seas. The principle of the freedom on the high seas goes back centuries, not to Trump.
And this is my main point, but what India really I hope does is work with Russia, with China, with Brazil, with the BRICS, with the African Union, to say to the 15% of the world in the US, Britain, Europe, “Calm down. We’re the vast majority. Stop playing games.”
ARNAB GOSWAMI: Absolutely. Well, we really love this. People are loving your thoughts. Can I just tell you, Professor, we keep a lot of tabs on streaming traffic right now. Record breaking streaming traffic, which means people are liking what Jeffrey Sachs is saying. Of course, he’s very famous, very well known, very direct. Like him or not like him, he doesn’t pull his punches.
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