Emma Watson: The TRUTH I Have Never Shared Before – On Purpose Podcast (Transcript

And honestly, I think I just said it to you a few moments ago, and I mean it.

Even if we weren’t having this conversation today and you just sent me those things to reflect on myself, that would have already been a gift. And so the opportunity to actually sit with you and to talk about these things and have the space to have a conversation that you feel you haven’t had before means the world to me.

And so thank you for trusting me. And I look forward to getting to know you so much better. But let’s dive in. I wanted to start by asking you, you said something there that was really beautiful because you stopped for a moment. Then you said, “It’s easier to be honest.” And I wanted to understand what that meant to you and how that feels.

The Weight of Representation

EMMA WATSON: Such a big part of my job was trying to think three steps ahead of how everything that I would say could negatively impact the film that I was trying to do justice to and do service to and make sure that people understood what the director had intended.

And I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time to honor so many people’s work that put together something like a film or, you know, even to some degree, I just did a fragrance with Prada, and it’s the first perfume bottle that you can refill.

And I don’t know. I take my job seriously, I guess. And so interviews to me felt a lot like chess, and it required so much energy. And I think what’s nice about the way that I’m showing up today is I’m just showing up for myself.

And for once, I actually am not here to speak on behalf of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I think it’s such a fascinating thing because as a viewer, even before I got closer to the industry as a viewer, everything’s made to feel in traditional media so easy. And it has levity, and it feels like you’re getting someone’s real personality, and then you realize that there’s definitely reality to it and truth to it. But at the same time, naturally, it’s work.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And there’s a job, and I think it’s not as, and you can shed more light on this, I don’t think it’s always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is. But there’s just, it’s a job and it’s work, and there’s results that matter, right?

The Form Shapes the Message

EMMA WATSON: A hundred percent. And I think within those contexts, everyone is trying to be as authentic as they humanly can be. But there’s something about, I think it’s why I mentioned earlier about why I felt like this was a good space. There’s something inherently written into certain types of forms of media, which is that it doesn’t matter what intentional or how authentically you want to show up, the form somehow doesn’t allow it to some degree.

And I’ve become obsessed with this recently. I’ve been looking at, okay, what is written into the form of something like Twitter or Instagram or TikTok or a podcast versus a photograph versus a film versus a piece of writing. And it’s really interesting to see what a different medium or different form allows or doesn’t allow, or actually creates or encourages.

I’ve never done a podcast before, but I love, I think what I love about it is the intimacy of it. I feel like people listen to podcasts when they’re, I certainly do anyway, first thing in the morning when I’m taking my shower or I’m going on my walk or I’m making my breakfast. It’s really personal, intimate time.

And I think the long form version of these kinds of conversations allows for such a different kind of discussion that I didn’t think was possible before.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn’t agree with you more. I was going to ask you actually, because I want everyone to get up to date with where you are now. What does your day to day life look like? You just said, I wake up and I shower and I go on a walk. What does your day to day life look like right now? And what’s it made of? And what are the things that you love and look forward to?

Life After the Driving Ban

EMMA WATSON: I recently started riding a bicycle. And yes, I started riding a bicycle before my driving ban, but now it’s particularly fortunate. So I also ride a bicycle for that reason.

JAY SHETTY: But that was mainstream news.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. Oh my God. I was getting phone calls like, “It’s on the BBC, it’s on international worldwide news.” I was like, “My shame is everywhere.” This is, I mean, what is it?

I don’t know. I think in a funny way what the sweetest result of it was getting so many messages from people being like, “Happened to me too. I feel you. This is awful. It sucks,” which was kind of nice in a way. But yeah. “Do you need a lift?” It’s like actually, yes.

But I think again, it’s funny. I went from, when you work on movies, I don’t know if people know this, but they literally will not insure you to drive yourself to work. I’ve asked so many times.

JAY SHETTY: You have to be driven.

EMMA WATSON: You have to be driven. It’s not a choice. And especially because they need you there, you know, down to the minute, basically depending on what they have going on.

And so I went from basically only driving myself on weekends or during holiday to then when I became a student, driving myself all the time. And yeah, I did not have the experience or skills, clearly, which I now will.

But I think again, this is one of these awkward transitions I made from living this very, very structured life to living a life where I was like, “Okay, I guess I’m going to get myself to this place and I’m going to do this thing that I’ve basically not done since I was 10 years old.”

So it’s been a discovery and a journey that’s been, yeah, I guess humbling because on a movie set I’m able to do all of these extremely complex things. Stunt, sing, dance, do this thing, do that, whatever. And I’m like, “Yep, don’t worry about it guys. No worries, we’ve got you.”

And then I get home and I’m like, “Okay, Emma, you seem unable to remember keys. You seem unable to keep yourself at 30 miles an hour in a 30 mile speed limit. You don’t seem able to do some pretty basic life things.”

And it was definitely kind of, yeah, I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like, “I used to be good at things. Okay. I used to be really good at things. And I know it doesn’t look like that right now, but I used to, I can do things normally.” So yeah, it’s been humbling.

JAY SHETTY: I feel like all of us can relate to that though, really, because doesn’t everyone forget their keys, their wallet, doesn’t know where things are? These are, these are, and by the way, I was, I think I was three points away from losing my license before I moved to the States.

EMMA WATSON: Thank you for that confession. I appreciate that so much.

JAY SHETTY: Because I was in the States for, I’ve been in the States now for nine years and I think it happened just, but then all the points get wiped off and I think I’m now back to six points. I spend two months in London a year. Every time I go back, I seem to…

EMMA WATSON: So much better.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. I’m confessing to you, but I haven’t lost it.

The Power of Honest Confession

EMMA WATSON: A lot of people, actually, a lot of people have taken it upon themselves to come and confess to me, which I found very endearing and really, really appreciate it.

But no, I think, you know, I think something I’ve been realizing is we, most of us live in a state of, “I’m just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together.” And the only thing that is different between us is people’s willingness to be honest about that.

The degree to which they can admit to actually, “I’m just scrabbling around trying to keep the pieces together” versus “Oh, yeah, I know. Everything’s amazing and everything’s incredible. And I’m having the best day ever. And aren’t you?”

And, you know, so I do love the people who are just willing to be like, “Yeah, it’s not going so well today.” I’m like, “Great. Amazing. What a good starting point.”

I don’t know. Failure as a starting point feels like, I feel like attempting things is so compelling. And of course, success is wonderful. But I love to see people who are like, “I’m really bad at this, but I’m going to try.” I love you. That’s everything to me that seems to…

JAY SHETTY: Be becoming harder and harder now. That desire to attempt something that you might not be good at because it’s exposed or because everyone will see it or because everyone will hear about it.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

Back to School: Learning in Public

JAY SHETTY: Talking about attempting things, I mean, you’re currently studying, right? You’re learning.

EMMA WATSON: Yes, yes. Well, two things I want to say there is, I think in a way I was sort of, I mean, I’m someone who’s always cared about vulnerability and authenticity, but I think I was also forced into it to a degree that maybe even I wasn’t ready for.

And that, I just started so young that I had to learn in public. I had to make mistakes in public and say, “Okay, now I’ve learned this.” And I had to be willing to go back and be like, there were some gaps here, and here’s what I know now.

And I think people’s, I agree with you. I think it’s becoming increasingly difficult to learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that’s one of the reasons why I have gone back to school and why I continue to do it is because I want to make sure that I have things to say that are worth saying.

And I think you can only do that if you take a minute sometimes and listen to some people who aren’t you. Not just the sound of my own wonderful voice. So, yeah, it’s been great.

I think also I needed to, I wanted to be inspired. I think being around, my favorite piece has been being around young people who still believe that the world is malleable and things are changeable and that anything can be done is such important energy.

There’s so much dystopian fiction at the moment and dystopian movies. It’s so dark. And I’m just like, “What happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to planning for the best case scenario?” Where did we lose vision, excitement, imagination, possibilities?

So I think it’s been, yeah, it’s been wonderful to be around young people and just to sit there and listen.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Do you ever, I mean, you clearly read so much. Do you have to take yourself away to do it in order to be able to do it? Do you have to cordon off time? How are you still managing to study and learn? Because that seems like it’s important to you.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. You reminded me, as you were talking of one of my spiritual teachers, my monk teacher, who always said to me, “If you want to move three steps forward, you have to go three steps deep first.”

EMMA WATSON: Whoa.

JAY SHETTY: And what I found often in my life is I’m trying to go four steps forward, and I haven’t yet gone four steps deep. And so it’s almost like—I mean, this is probably a terrible analogy, but maybe thinking of the movie the Substance. I don’t know if you watched it. Okay, fine. Okay, terrible. Let’s remove it. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let’s forget about it.

But it’s that idea of, like, every extra step you take when you haven’t learned and you haven’t experimented and you haven’t attempted is taking away from your ability to move forward. And sometimes I think when we feel stuck or when we think things are not moving or they’re not progressing, it may be assigned to say, well, pause and go deeper for a second, or pause and go inward for a second.

And so to me, hearing that from you, I find that—and I definitely fail at this all the time. There are so many times I’m trying to push more forward than I’ve gone deep. And so whenever I notice that myself, and I notice that I’m just kind of trying everything and nothing is working, it’s actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read. Go study.

And so I found that I’ve had to really carve out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study. But I found that I’m someone who doesn’t love 30 minutes a day. I’m not that kind of a reader. I’m someone who needs to read for three or four hours, if not more. And so I found that carving out deep, immersive time is more important to me than this kind of mechanical 30, 40 minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for you as a habit.

It doesn’t for me because I’m a bit of an extremist, and I just need to spend a whole weekend reading as opposed to, you know, I need, I don’t need to read every day. So I’ll try, and I try once a month on a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love. And I’ll take a course, I’ll go to a class, I’ll watch a TED Talk online, I’ll read as many books as I can. And I try and immerse myself that way. What’s your learning style?

Deep Learning and Slowing Down

EMMA WATSON: I’m the same as you and actually someone who I really respect and ask for advice for often, and I asked for feedback on myself, he said to me, “Emma, I think if you did 90% of what you wanted to do at 50% of the speed, you would get so much more. Like, life would be so much better.” And I was like, wow, 50% of the speed and only 90% of what I want to do. And he was like, “I think that’s the minimum, to be honest.” And I was like, wow.

But I think, yeah, what you said resonates. I think I often have to remind myself that it’s not about speedily getting somewhere, it’s just not the point. Things are supposed to happen with a certain timing. And so, yeah, resonates.

And to your point, I cannot just sit for 30 minutes and look at something. I need kind of like a week on holiday and then I’ll start to deeply get into something and I need quiet and I hyper focus and I—that’s when I, you know, I love it, but I can’t. I can’t do little itty bitty bits. Yeah, drives me nuts.

JAY SHETTY: It just doesn’t work.

EMMA WATSON: It doesn’t work.

JAY SHETTY: It doesn’t work.

EMMA WATSON: Resonates.

Learning From Mistakes in Public

JAY SHETTY: You said that you felt that you had to learn in public and you made mistakes. Like, what were mistakes that felt like mistakes then that made you feel like, oh, gosh, I made that mistake in public, but I was 10 years old or whatever it was. And now you look back and you think, oh, you know, I was able to process it.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, I think the big one was feminism and intersectional feminism. And frankly, it just like wasn’t taught. You know, I had to really seek out. And I’m really grateful, actually that I was in many ways quite lovingly called in, as opposed to—I mean, some of it was not.

But I think that was definitely a moment where I had to say, okay, I’m talking about something really big and important and it’s actually really important to set this in some context, which I have not done. And I think that was a big moment. I think it was more—there was an omission. There was things that were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong. I just needed—I just needed to fill in more gaps.

And so that was when I started, or that was actually in the middle. I had a feminist book club called Our Shared Shelf. And so that was part of those conversations. But it was a good moment for me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good.

I think we have an alarm system that goes off which is like, I’m uncomfortable. This feels uncomfortable. So something bad must be happening and I must leave as soon as possible. And actually, I think that was when I started to learn. Oh. Actually, me being uncomfortable in a space might be a good sign because it might mean I’m about to learn something.

And I want to attribute that was Mara Ayal Arasai who helped me understand that and was a very, very valuable teaching. So now when I’m in a space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable, I don’t think it means I need to bolt or something bad’s happening.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Maybe something really good is about to happen. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. And I feel like that goes back to what we started with. This idea of attempting means discomfort.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And I love—I love that point you made that actually whenever we’re sharing anything, it’s not that it’s not true, it’s that it’s not complete.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And mostly when we see people say things or share ideas, it’s very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because that means they would have had to think about it from every single vantage point.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Which is not even humanly possible.

Loving Corrections and Accountability

EMMA WATSON: It’s not possible. It’s not possible. And I think Adrienne Maree Brown, I don’t know if you’ve ever had—she’s—she wrote an amazing book, which is one of her more recent ones, which is called “Loving Corrections.” And she speaks to kind of exactly this, which is there’s kind of this, like, ire that we see online when people don’t attribute something perfectly to someone else or they’re missing something.

And it’s like, isn’t the whole point of this that we’re in conversation, and if it’s the right person, you can see that a good intention is there, then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn’t need to be—I mean, obviously there’s—there’s important time and place for holding people accountable. But maybe, I don’t know, attributing like, great, we’re all going to help each other kind of pad this out, fill this out.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s—it’s a hard—I think that’s the hard part. It’s like, how do you differentiate between holding someone accountable and giving them grace? That’s a really interesting discussion in and of itself, and I don’t think I—I have the answer or know exactly what it is, but I feel like that’s a thought exercise as humans that if we were to do it, would actually—I don’t know. What’s your take?

EMMA WATSON: Maybe the grace is attributing good intention and the accountability is the courage it takes to actually say something to someone because it’s such a scary thing to do. And it often requires a lot of emotional labor.

And I find this a lot as a woman, especially as a woman who’s dating, that, like, I—I will just be like, is it worth me explaining. Is it worth explaining this thing? Or should I just not take the time to do this? Because sometimes I will really—I care about doing it kindly and compassionately. And it’s very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone.

But, you know, sometimes it does fall on—on deaf ears. And you’re like, that text message took me like 40 minutes, like, to word perfectly, or that voice note or whatever. And you’re like, is this making a difference? Am I getting through to anyone? Is transformative justice real? Like, is this labor worth it?

But I think I don’t have a perfect answer. I’m not—I haven’t lived through enough of it to know. I guess I’ve just reached a point where it’s like, I’d rather—I’d rather die trying. I’d rather die having tried. And maybe some small piece of it, even if it’s not now, even if it’s at some future point, like, something I’ve said just like goes something at the back of my mind here. Someone says something to me, then, you know, maybe it’s worth it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience of that person I don’t get to keep and cherish. To come back to our earlier thing, like, I just don’t think these things are either/or. I hope people who don’t agree with my opinion will love me. And I hope I can keep loving people, people who I don’t necessarily share the same opinion with.

And I think that’s a very, very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life. I really do believe in having conversations, and I guess where I’ve landed is—it’s not so much what we say or what we believe, but very often how we say it.

Childhood Sensitivity and Empathy

JAY SHETTY: When you think about little Emma. Yeah, like what was a childhood memory that you have, a core memory that you have, that you feel has defined who you are today? Somewhat.

EMMA WATSON: I think I won’t share the specific memory because it’s so personal, but I think I’ve always felt other people’s pain very intensely. Until maybe recently, I did not know how to give myself grace and navigate. Seeing my sensitivity as a strength and knowing that it’s like my gift, but it also means I have to keep care for it in specific ways.

When you are given gifts, there’s often you kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And in the same way that, like, my position in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power, it’s also given me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have these kind of—I don’t know when or why it started, but I think I always—whoever it was that was suffering in the room, I was always the most aware of them.

And I think that has formed a lot of why I could act. It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere. And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time afterwards, they were just like, where did that come from? You don’t have any of these experiences.

I recorded a song for my 12th birthday. My mum bought me a day in a recording studio and I sing Natalie Imbruglia’s “Torn.” Like I’ve had my heart broken 50,000 times, you know, like, I’ve been married and divorced and whatever, and I’m 12 and I’ve never had a boyfriend and I don’t know anything about love.

JAY SHETTY: Have you ever thought about where it came from or—

EMMA WATSON: I would imagine—I can’t say for sure. I would imagine that my family structure has not been a traditional family structure. And that feeling of knowing that I’m from a situation where we just don’t quite fit the kind of nuclear family mold. And I think coming back from France and trying to figure out how to sort of integrate and being the eldest and having my younger brother and having my mum and like, trying to sort of be some sort of glue or holding together for everyone’s feelings, I’m pretty sure that’s probably where it—that’s where it started.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: And then I guess just being aware of other people who might feel the way I did. Which is like, who else in here doesn’t feel like they quite fit?

JAY SHETTY: I’ve always found that it took me a while to recognize, but when I did, it was so helpful that a lot of what I do today is because I mediated my parents’ marriage growing up. And so I developed all these skills of listening and empathy and grace and compassion because I was doing it for two people that I love.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And I see it as a strength. And yes, it comes with certain things. For sure it comes—you’re absolutely right. But at the same time, I’ve always seen it as a strength.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

The Impact of Childhood and Finding Wholeness

JAY SHETTY: And it’s something that has served me well in my marriage, it served me well in my relationships. And at the same time it has certain consequences that make you different or make you process things differently. And so I remember one thing you shared with me that I was reading it. You said I used to spend my weekdays with mom and my weekends with dad. And you said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And they’re all like this two lives kind of thing.

EMMA WATSON: Yes, yes.

JAY SHETTY: And I feel that’s so relatable. I feel like so many people can relate to that whether their family was more traditional or wasn’t. I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and not knowing which life they’re meant to lead.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And that feels like it’s kind of…

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Played into yours.

EMMA WATSON: Yes, for sure. I think it’s also why I’ve had to really navigate my relationship towards art and acting. Because I’m pretty sure that I was using acting as a way of escaping how painful my parents… Like, it wasn’t just the divorce. It was just like the continuing situation of living between two different houses and two different lives and two different sets of values.

And as a child, like being aware of like we don’t quite have the support we need here for this. Like, this is not quite… We’re not quite like… And I think it does. It makes you. It made me a slightly serious child because I was like, had that consciousness.

And then when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad, it was like a very different set of rules, very different situation. And so you do you kind of like… And I think everyone can relate to this to an extent that it’s not that you are wanting to become different people, but it’s you. There are different expectations of you in different places that you understand that you need to fill.

And so I think some of that split then became… I was like, okay, wow, you know my parents have very different views on different things. And the hard part of that was that no one gave me any easy answers. It meant I had to form all of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus.

And it made me a critical thinker for sure, because… And so that was amazing. And also really, like, gosh, okay, I need to decide what I think is important in life and what my opinions are. No one’s handing me this. Yeah. Maybe it also made me aware of not wanting to be so split as well, and why it’s been important to me to try to remain whole.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: In all the different circumstances of my life and ask myself questions about how I can do that best. Because I think I experienced as a child that the split is painful. Like, if you’re living a reality one way but presenting something else, those are the moments when it can… You can really feel torn apart. And I recognized that, and I didn’t want that to be my life. I didn’t want pretend to be my real life.

Creating Your Own Blueprint

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. I mean, that’s so… I can so relate to you personally on the idea of not having a blueprint and having to create my own. And how often when you don’t have a blueprint, you feel you have two choices, and that’s where you feel torn. Whereas when you look at it as a whole and go, okay, well, now I get to craft…

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: My own narrative from this.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And I may take a few pieces from here and a few pieces from here, and I’m going to form my own puzzle.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: But I don’t have to choose a path.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: It’s really beautiful when you do it, but it’s really hard in the beginning because it just feels like there are two paths. And I wanted to talk about how much that’s impacted, you know, your work. And you said there… You said that one thing you mentioned that really stood out to me was you felt that acting was in some way escaping that kind of, which version do I have to be?

And I think so much of what we do for work, or so much of what we pursue as humans is based on something we’re trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something. And I think we haven’t often looked at work that way. Like, sometimes we choose a career because we know it will make our parents happy, and so we’re living a pattern. Or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in.

And it’s fascinating to me to look at that. And for you, you were acting in school plays since you were a young girl and was acting always something you were going to do? Or do you feel like it was this cross section of what was happening in your personal life that actually made that feel like the direction you would choose?

Acting as Escape and Revelation

EMMA WATSON: I think it’s so interesting that you said those words “reveal” and “escape,” that they’re kind of the same thing, because I think that it all started with a poem. I did a poetry competition when I was nine called the Daisy Pratt Poetry Competition. And I’m actually naturally quite a shy person. And so actually for me to stand up in front of people feels like an out of body experience.

Like there’s so much adrenaline coursing through my veins that it does feel like a moment outside of time. And I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn’t space to have conversations or express myself at that time in the way that I needed to, I did it through performance.

And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of what I was like, the discomfort of that time of not quite knowing who I was or how to be in the world. And as I’ve become more healed and whole and more comfortable being myself, it’s been interesting to ask myself, do you still need acting? Do you still need to act? Like, why? What are you doing that for?

And like, it used to feel like almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it. And what’s really interesting now is I don’t feel quite that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And I wonder if it’s because actually I have spaces where I can now take some of those feelings and talk about some of the things I don’t think I had space to voice without doing it on camera in front of thousands of people.

JAY SHETTY: Which is scary in its own way. Right? I think, oh, that makes sense. But then it’s like, well, no, it’s really challenging to do that second part, even if it makes sense rationally or logically. And was that what, in 2019, when you kind of pulled away, was your reason I want to heal and work on myself, or was it actually, I don’t feel a compulsion anymore? Like, was that the inflection point of doing some self work, or was that the inflection point of I need to pause?

The 2019 Pause and Painful Realizations

EMMA WATSON: I realized I was drawing on painful stuff in my life that I was actually healing and I didn’t want to keep revisiting in order to do some of the more intense, scarier, sadder things that I had to do. I realized, I remember by Beth’s deathbed, by her, by her graveside when we shot those films, like normally there are like these painful memories that I would use for those moments.

And I realized I was like, I don’t know if this is super great for me actually to keep, to keep revisiting these or if I want to use these as my tools. And I don’t think that means I’ll never come back to acting. I think it just meant I was like, I wonder if there’s a different way to do this.

I think the second thing was, to be really honest, I was coming to those sets with an expectation that I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was that we were, the people I worked with, were going to be my family and that we were going to be lifelong friends. I came to work looking for friendship and that was a very painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood, like bone breakingly painful because most people don’t come to those environments looking for friendships.

They’re looking for… This is my chance, this is my role, this is what I want out of it. I’m focused, this is my job, this is my career. Like, let go. And I was not of that mindset. And so I found, I found the rejection really painful.

JAY SHETTY: The friendship rejection.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, yeah. Of like, I… I was like, I… I think it’s so unusual to make a set of films for 12 years and we were a community like we, we really were. And so I took that as an exploration into my, into my other workplaces and I just got my, I just got my ass kicked. I really did.

JAY SHETTY: Was it competition? Was it envy? Was it just hierarchy? Was it…

EMMA WATSON: I think it was a combination. It was a Molotov cocktail of all of the above. As we mentioned earlier, I’m just not thick skinned and maybe I just wasn’t built for those kinds of highly competitive environments. It, yeah, it broke me. Yeah.

But in a way I’m proud that it did because I guess that means I have something left to break. I have a heart left to break. So it was a hard learning, but I think there’s something that I’m proud of in a way that there were certain things I couldn’t withstand. I’d much rather keep my humanity. I’m managing to like keep tissue inside.

Strength in Vulnerability

JAY SHETTY: There is a tissue there that’s really kind of… No, but I really appreciate you saying that. And I mean, it’s so powerful to hear how you’ve processed it. Like just what you added there. Because when I saw your voice change and just you expressing it, and it hit me as you said it and I felt it, and then the way you reflected on it kind of helped that feeling rise really beautifully.

Because what you said is so true that if you were broken by a frequency of envy and competition and whatever else it was, that’s only proof that you were vibrating in a way that didn’t want to be pulled down into that. And it’s so interesting though, how when we break to those sorts of emotions and ideas, we feel we’re the weak one.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: When it’s completely the opposite.

EMMA WATSON: That was, that was the most painful thing was I thought I beat myself up for years afterwards really thinking, like, punishing myself, saying, “you couldn’t hack it. You weren’t strong enough.” And yeah, what bliss and what peace. I think to understand that, to have come out on top would have been a greater failure, I think, in terms of who I actually care about being.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. It’s almost like if you abandoned yourself in that moment in order to align with that new way of thinking…

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You’d probably beat yourself up more long term and have a much harder time.

The Cost of Peace

EMMA WATSON: Yes, I think so. I don’t know. I’ve just got to this place where it’s just… If it costs me any part of my peace, it’s just too expensive. And of course, like, there’s opportunities that I think, wow, like, that would be amazing. And I care deeply about my work, but I think it’s just… I think I just used to completely sacrifice myself for whatever the thing was I was trying to achieve.

And that could be a grade, it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability. And unless you have the right people around you that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you’re going to get smashed up. You’re just going to get crushed.

And so I think now it’s just a case of me being like, okay, I know that for me to do anything, I have to have people in the room that care about me more than whatever the product is or whatever the final product is. And if that isn’t the case, I cannot be there because I’m just someone who like, gives it all. It’s how I’m built.

And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain kinds of conditions is how I’ve come to… Hopefully I’ll keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, it seems like I’ve spoken to so many and we were talking about this last week when we were speaking on the phone that I’ve worked with so many young people, musicians who’ve all been told, like, “all right, if you don’t do this over the next 12 months, you’re not going to make it.”

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

The Pressure of Career Decisions

JAY SHETTY: Or like, if you don’t do this right now, if you don’t say yes to this song or this movie, it’s like you might as well wave it goodbye. You’re never going to get the Oscar or the whatever it may be or the Grammy or whatever it is. And I can’t imagine being a young person, like I’m 37 now and you process ideas like that differently.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: If you’re in your teens or even twenties, there’s, and maybe even thirties. But you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially when it’s someone of influence and power saying it to you. And yeah, it feels like being surrounded by people who really believe in you and your longevity and your art versus, but that’s hard to find.

EMMA WATSON: It is. It’s hard to find. And you know, I had a wonderful team. Like, I really did. I think it’s just like understanding that no one at the end of the day is going to be in the room. Like when you’re actually doing the thing, you have to carry that moment and you have to carry that pressure.

Also, making films, the hours on them are so demanding that to have your own life alongside that, to have that balance is almost impossible. It’s so all or nothing. It’s so all encompassing. Especially if you’re in a lead role. You kind of go through these, you know, working six days a week, 14 to 16 hour days, and then you’re just kind of dropped off at the end of it and maybe you’ll have a two or three month gap and then there’s just kind of like nothing.

And so you’re like riding this incredible peak of adrenaline and cortisol and then you just get dropped off the edge. And then you’re like, okay, wait, now I have to be a functioning human again and I have to figure out how to be a person in the real world. And I think some of those extremes then force an actor to either decide, well, I’m going to back to back it. So I’m going to basically go from one movie to the next and that’s going to be my full life.

Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system that you need a system and a support system to help you navigate. And I think it’s why addiction and mental illness in my profession and in a lot of high stress, high profile professions is so commonplace. Because you’re trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.

The Reality Behind Red Carpets

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Talk to people about why. Because I think from the outside, yeah, when someone sees a red carpet, yeah, or when someone sees an event, it looks really glamorous. Like, until I ever attended anything.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You know, I always looked at it like, oh, my gosh, it’s so glamorous. And everyone’s there and everyone must be friends and everyone must know each other because they all, you know, but then you’re not saying that, and neither is, and anytime I’ve ever been on a red carpet, everyone’s anxious and everyone’s nervous, and that’s the real experience. People are almost waiting to leave.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And some people do the red carpet and leave immediately. But what’s going on there? Like, walk us through. Like, I mean, for people who may not.

EMMA WATSON: I think the first step is to just understand, even though you’re wearing an incredibly glamorous dress and you’re there to do something exciting, I don’t think there’s anything that can make it not weird that people are screaming at the top of their lungs. Like, it just, everything in your body says something’s wrong. Like, people are screaming, something’s wrong. But then you have to try to pretend as though this is all normal and you’re unfazed.

So you have two things going on. One, you’re navigating this sensory overload that’s telling you, oh, my God, something is really wrong.

JAY SHETTY: You had a pose. Telling you.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. So you’re trying to navigate, okay, something feels wrong. But I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am the most graceful and the most calm I’ve ever been in my whole life. And I need to pose for this person. And there’s 50 different cameras, and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into each and every one.

And I probably would have had four different notes from the stylist about how I’m supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress. And then I’ve got 25 different talking points from the movie of what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about. And so you’re like, you need to be thinking about that and the juggle’s crazy.

And then I think everyone is in this kind of jumped up state. And so trying to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in which you have a nice chat with someone, really. I mean, maybe if you’re really lucky and you’ve worked with someone for a long time and you’ve established some trust.

But I think that was the other thing that was really difficult about movies. And what I kind of laugh at, not in a mean way, but you know, you always get asked when you’re promoting these big films, like, so do you guys hang out on set? And do you guys hang out? And are you all friends? And everyone sort of nods enthusiastically. But the truth is no one has seen each other outside of work, very, very, very rarely.

Mostly because the schedule is insane. Everyone’s so tired that when they get any time off, you’re going straight back to your hotel room to try to claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can. And I don’t know, friendships require time and trust and presence, and those things very rarely come about. They can and they do occasionally, but it’s more of a solar eclipse than an everyday situation.

But you have to pretend. I think that’s the part that starts to feel icky after a while, is you have to pretend that you’re all best friends. And what’s so sad, and I know this isn’t just the case for me, but I think people wish they were. I think we wish we did have those real connections and we did have that real support.

And so having to pretend that something exists that you actually really want but don’t have is like, it’s like, that’s it pretty grainy in the wound, you know, it’s pretty tough pill to swallow to have to act out something that you wish were real but isn’t real.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: And I think that’s the part that starts to kind of, yeah, I can only speak for myself, but those are definitely the moments where I’ve been like, this feels dark like anyone else. Like, this feels dark. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And there’s such a real reminder that it’s still work. And it’s almost like asking anyone who works at any company and saying, hey, do you hang out with your team after work every night? And the answer is probably not, yeah, no, everyone’s going to their family and maybe you’ve got a couple of, course you’ve got a couple of friends at work and it’s wonderful if you have a friend at work that you work out with or see after hours but you’re not hanging out as the whole crew. It’s very unlikely, 100%.

And it is that reality check of no. But this is also just work and their character stories are not their personal stories and it doesn’t. And that’s why I wanted to go back. You mentioned, you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel and I wanted to ask you how did that come about in the first. Where did the auditions come from? How did that become a part of your life?

The Harry Potter Audition

EMMA WATSON: Yes. So I did not go to a performing arts school. I’d never done anything, I never acted professionally. But they came, they did a basically country wide search to find Harry, Hermione and Ron. And so they asked my school if they wanted to submit any students who love drama who wanted to audition. And so I was one of I think about 12 students that was asked if I wanted to audition.

I don’t know, it was weird. I had this weird weighted fated sense of destiny pretty much from the moment that they said they mentioned the audition. I remember I brought I think maybe seven different Beanie Babies with me along and all these different lucky talismans and I loved the world and the books so much.

My dad had been reading them to me before bed when I would spend the weekends with him and on long car journeys we’d often drive back and forth to France and that’s how the time would be passed. And so I was just like, loved the world, loved Hermione and for me it wasn’t so much about acting so much as it was that the books meant so much to me personally.

JAY SHETTY: Did you feel like it was destiny for you or did it feel like, did you always feel like it was going to be this?

EMMA WATSON: I always.

JAY SHETTY: Because obviously the books were already.

EMMA WATSON: You know, I always felt like Hermione was, I knew I was never auditioning for anything else. Like I knew it was her. I don’t know, I don’t know how to explain it. Something felt right about it and my, yeah, my poor parents. Because if I hadn’t have got it, I think they knew how crush. I ended up doing nine auditions over a period of over a year and a half, which for a nine year old is a lot of work, a massive commitment. But I was, I loved her. I loved it. I really did.

The Importance of Normalcy

JAY SHETTY: What do you wish now that you would have known before you became Hermione?

EMMA WATSON: I did a pretty good job and I’m actually, I give my mother specifically credit for this. She was like a warrior for my normalcy and for me having an ordinary life and going to school and no one wanted that. I mean, it would have been considerably easier if I had not continued going to school. But she, wow. Like, I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling I had a place in it and that I belonged to outside of those films was going to be crucial.

JAY SHETTY: Wow. That’s really incredible.

EMMA WATSON: It was because she basically didn’t have anyone on her team. She was kind of on her own on that one. And she fought tooth and nail. She was on the phone for hours saying she has to sit her exams, she has to go back. Like, she needs to be here. She needs to have some parts of a normal childhood. And, yeah, forever in her debt.

JAY SHETTY: That’s so special to have had that and have those. Yeah. To have a parent who.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: See, like. And, yeah, you can’t see anything for yourself. You’re.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. No. And to be honest, I didn’t really, I didn’t really get it, if I’m going to be honest. I was like, okay. Like, I guess it’s important. Like, I’m not, you know, I didn’t really get it. So I think, yeah, she was amazing.

The Blurring of Identity

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. When, when did, because from what I was reading, from what you shared with me, I was, when did Emma, you, Emma Watson and Hermione and the characters that then followed start to get blurred and intertwined? Because, yeah, that expectation that comes with.

I remember this and I share it because to give it to context to people. I was walking down the road with one of my friends who’s an actor who gets recognized 100 times for every one time I get recognized. And so if we’re walking down, like, this person gets stopped a hundred times for pictures, and then, yeah, I’ll get stopped once.

And it was really beautiful because we’d spent a day together and that person had been stopped a hundred times. And I’ve been stopped a couple of times. And then they said something to me. They said, Jay, Jay, you’re really lucky. And I said, what do you mean? And I thought they were going to say, because I’m anonymous to some degree, but they didn’t.

He said to me, he goes, Jay, you’re really lucky. Because he goes, when people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be. And when they stop you, they stop you for who you are. And it was really encouraging words from someone that I respect a lot. And I was like, wow. I never thought about it like that.

It hadn’t hit me how different it was, because I think you just see fame or success or whatever it is, this one big bubble of stuff, especially when you’re not that close to, or you don’t know too much about it. And it was that conversation that made me even be even more personal with everyone that I ever spoke to, because they’d always have a personal story or. And that’s not to say that isn’t true for music and for acting. And of course there is. I don’t want to take away from.

EMMA WATSON: No, no.

JAY SHETTY: And I’m not saying that as an egotistical statement. I’m saying it as how hard it is for an individual to go through that.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And to be disassociated from themselves.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Because that role could be a part of you. It could be an expression of you. It was a part of your life at a certain period of time. But of course, it isn’t you.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: But does that make any sense?

EMMA WATSON: I remember when I gave my UN speech about HeForShe and about feminism and women’s rights, and people started stopping me because of things that had come from me and that I’d said. It felt like a very significant transition for me because for the first time, I felt like I could look someone in the eye and receive and accept something that they were saying, because I felt like it actually had something to do with me.

And I wasn’t just kind of a custodian of something sacred, which I did take very seriously, and I still do, but it had been a direct transmission for me. And I think that’s why writing has become so important to me, is because it’s a way that I can say things directly, and that feels really meaningful.

The Difference Between Being a Custodian and Direct Transmission

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I love the word you just used there of the difference between being a custodian and direct transmission. You said. And that’s such an interesting way to think about it. And I think each and every one of us don’t want to be known as a lawyer or an accountant or a doctor. Yes, that’s a part of us, and it’s a role we play in society. And it, of course, brings significance and value and worth and all of these wonderful things.

But I think everyone wants to be something beyond that, and no one wants to be that in their home, and no one wants to be that with their friends. And me included, by the way. Me and my friend, one of my friends who’s a well known standup comic, we always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command.

And I try with my friends to not say smart. I try not to say thoughtful, revelatory things. Because with my friends, I just want to be Jay. I don’t want to have to coach someone’s marriage or solve their thing. I don’t want to do that. I just want to be. And so even for someone who is doing direct transmission a lot more of the time, even then there’s a feeling of, well, I don’t want to say anything profound in this conversation. Yeah, I need to put that down, right?

When Emma Watson Became Too Heavy to Carry

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. I think a big piece of me understanding again why I needed to take a minute is that even being the person who was promoting the work became a kind of role. Emma Watson became this avatar, this person that I identified with but also kind of didn’t. She’d become reproduced so many times over and kind of had become so loaded by all of this different stuff that she almost felt too heavy to carry.

I kind of was like, I don’t even know if I can be that bitch anymore. I went on a date two years ago and it was the best confession ever. But I was messaging this person. They were like, “Emma.” And he was like, “Can I just say something? Emma Watson makes me anxious.” And I was like, “Emma Watson makes me anxious too.” That’s so good. On the same page. I get it. I can’t even be her. I don’t know how to be her. Live up to what I look like on the cover of a magazine. I don’t look like that. I can’t. I don’t even know how to touch what that person’s become.

That was kind of a funny realization at some point where I was like, I need to this thing because once you’ve… I don’t know. There’s such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with being a public, famous person, especially if you’re a woman. I feel so envious of my male co-stars who can just put on a T-shirt and show up without this whole rigmarole of kind of becoming acceptable enough to be on camera.

And oh, kudos to Pamela Anderson recently. Just doing the thing because the amount of courage it will have taken to do that, I cannot even begin to express to you. It’s wild. The expectations are insane. It’s impossible.

JAY SHETTY: So on vacation, private space. Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. Just the beauty expectations are so difficult to reach and the bar gets raised all the time. So it’s like you’re on this constantly, I don’t know, it’s some sort of Survivor’s island game show beauty nightmare where, you know, I don’t know, it’s nuts. So I think part of also not feeling like Emma Watson is just the whole glam squad culture of it all. It’s intense.

Unlearning Emma Watson

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Fascinating because there’s almost this learning of becoming, you know, becoming Emma Watson, becoming, you know, being all the roles you play. And then it almost feels like what you’re saying is there was a moment you wanted to step off and unlearn what that meant.

EMMA WATSON: Totally.

JAY SHETTY: But that seems really hard.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Because learning it was hard enough. And then to unlearn it when it’s linked to your work, your finances, your worth, your friendship, community, connection, all of the… Where you live. How do you even begin to unlearn being Emma Watson?

EMMA WATSON: It’s a knotted ball. You have to sort of unravel very carefully and carefully.

JAY SHETTY: That’s it. Yeah. Yeah, I think it’s not like a wrecking ball. You’re not just…

EMMA WATSON: I mean, some things had to be done like the wrecking ball, honestly. And then some parts of it were a much slower, more gentle teasing out. But I mean, I don’t know if you find this, but I imagine that a lot of your friendships are made through the podcast and made through your work. And there’s kind of this non-separation between your home and your family and your relationship and the podcast.

But tied into that, there’s also the very real… Some people will be wanting you to reference their new book or promote something for them or whatever. And navigating that. So many of these threads are entwined. Does it ever start to feel like you’re like, wow, this is a lot? People ask me all the time, do you ever wonder why people want to hang out with you or be your friend or whatever? And does that ever get complicated for you?

Navigating Friendships and Direct Transmission

JAY SHETTY: I think because my direct transmission is so clear that if anyone in the industry wants to connect…

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: There’s usually quite a distinct journey that they’re on that mine can support or help with as a friend or in a more formal capacity and that I deeply enjoy and I’m grateful for. Because people are not inviting me out to crazy parties and I’m happy.

EMMA WATSON: They’re not.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, they’re not. Yeah. They don’t think I’m fun enough. I just saw a clip the other day of Austin Butler saying he’s never been invited to a bachelor party before. I couldn’t believe it. But that kind of feel like I don’t get invited to crazy parties and I’m grateful for that. That’s not really a part of my life.

EMMA WATSON: Right.

JAY SHETTY: Unless it’s a spiritual party and then I’m all game. But there isn’t that. And so sometimes I think my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don’t really get asked to come to things. But then at the same time it takes me to get to know someone deeply.

I just traveled with a friend to Greece and we played three nights of poker from midnight to 7am and it was amazing and I loved it and I had the best time. And I don’t think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early. But I was on vacation and I was like, yeah, exactly. And I’m competitive in that way and I enjoy it.

And so I think what it is for me is… I grew up as part of a big community in London and a big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young. And I think that what I found is it’s very difficult to discern for people externally and even for people in that community as to how close they were to…

EMMA WATSON: To me. Right.

JAY SHETTY: And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together and there were 200 people in the class…

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JAY SHETTY: But now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close. Right. When in actuality I’ve never had a one-to-one conversation with that person. And so now their opinion matters to the outside world, it matters to the media, it matters to whatever, but I actually don’t know that person and they don’t really know me.

EMMA WATSON: Right.

JAY SHETTY: It’s just so that we went to the same congregation in the same year, which has lots, thousands of people in it. And so I struggle with that. And then I also struggle with people coming up to me and saying, “Oh, Jay, I’ve known you for 20 years and you know, from back in the day at the temple.” But I’m like, we didn’t ever have any conversation and I still have all my best friends from that community that are still my closest friends.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, that’s true.

JAY SHETTY: It’s hard to navigate because it’s not that I don’t have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything I do, but I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did. But they’ve almost created a story within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big community, this isn’t a group of school friends or something which I’m still really close with. It’s more this expanded community which you were just visible in. Not even audible. If that makes any sense.

Projections and Perceptions

EMMA WATSON: No, that makes perfect sense, I think. Yeah. Being part of a larger community would be tricky to navigate. Yeah. With the kind of, I guess being a famous person in essence is lots of people can project lots of things onto you and if they had some level of contact with you, it makes those kinds of projections a lot easier. And then you’re like, oh, wow, we’re in a completely different… Your experience of this is so different from mine.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah. And yeah. And I mean yours is a million times that. And you know, I can’t imagine how hard dating is. You talked about in some of the reflections that you said, this idea of just dating is hard as a 20-year-old, 30-year-old woman anyway.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And then to add your life to it.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Talk to me. You’ve referenced it a couple of times in conversations you’ve had. What does it feel like when you’re having a normal conversation and someone goes, “Wait a minute, you’re… Yeah, Hermione Granger, Emma Watson,” you know, list goes on.

When the Avatar Enters the Room

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, yeah. I mean it does feel like my avatar enters the room unexpectedly, all of a sudden. And then I’m navigating a completely different conversation if someone hasn’t figured out that it’s me yet. And that can feel really dehumanizing and sometimes quite… Seeing someone’s behavior completely switch and turn and change can be kind of a jarring experience.

I think what’s nice is at the very least dating for everyone is basically a complete disaster and free for all. So I feel like I’m in good company in that sense. But I think it’s funny, occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact they’ve not seen my films. And I will be like, “Please don’t apologize. That is bliss to me.” Music to my ears that you’re not going to constantly be navigating and me also navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room.

So that’s happened a few times where people have been like, “I’m really sorry.” Please don’t apologize. I’m so relieved. I’m so incredibly relieved.

JAY SHETTY: And then you realize they have the box set later on.

The Relief of Not Being Recognized

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. Oh my God, I hope not. I mean, I guess, like, I want people to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don’t have to navigate that extra degree of redness is helpful, a relief.

JAY SHETTY: How do you help people get to know the real you at this stage in your life?

Using Creative Writing to Explain Her Experience

EMMA WATSON: You know, I wrote this play that I actually sent to you to read, but I actually read parts of it to people because I find that trying to explain sometimes how weird it is to be me. Like, I almost need aids. Like, it’s not. It’s so difficult to convey, like, how weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I. Sometimes I’ll just be like, can I just like, read you this thing I wrote? Because I think it’s going to shortcut you somewhere?

And so that’s actually been incredibly helpful. And I’m so glad I went and did this Creative Writing Masters. And I’ve spent more time writing about my experiences because sometimes I can’t even articulate it to myself. Like, how are you supposed to explain something to someone else you can’t really even understand for yourself?

So I think writing, creative writing, making art has been the best therapy I’ve ever done because it’s helped me get clarity and also just being able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one on one therapy can be amazing. But there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to that that maybe when you’re writing something down.

And when I wrote the play, I wrote it for my friends and family and I was able to kind of bring more of myself to the picture in a way, which is someone who’s like, this is just nuts. Like, I just can’t. Like, I can’t. Sometimes I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life and I need a place I can fit that.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I loved. So just for everyone who’s hearing about the referencing of this play, Emma wrote a play which helped her closest friends and family understand her experience of life, basically. Right, Is that a bad description?

EMMA WATSON: No, no, it’s not a bad description. But specifically I wrote the play about me transitioning from basically being a full time actress, an activist, to trying to move home and be a normal student and attend a normal university as a super famous person.

And I basically kept a journal of what those experiences were like and chronicled them for my friends and family for about a year and then performed it as a one woman show at the end of the first year and handed that in as my first year piece of work. And. Yeah. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Did it get an A?

EMMA WATSON: It got a distinction.

JAY SHETTY: Oh, amazing. Great. There we go. I love it.

Even Those Closest to Her Didn’t Fully Understand

EMMA WATSON: It actually did. Not that that was the point, but. But it kind of wasn’t the point. But I think the coolest thing was, was like, I read it for my roommate, for example, who’s been living with me for seven years, and he was like, “Wait, wait, wait, stop, stop, stop, stop.” He’s like, “Is this actually how you feel? Like, do you actually feel this?”

And I was like, “Yeah, I wouldn’t have written it if I didn’t.” And he was like, “I had no idea that this was how you felt.” And this is someone I live with. And so for me, who I perceive myself to be this massive open book. And actually I realized I was like, wow, I think I’m doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like.

And actually I’m not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And so even my parents were just like, couldn’t believe it. Really. Yeah.

The Power of Creative Expression

JAY SHETTY: I’m sure they were brought to tears by parts of it. I mean, I was so moved by it. And I really hope you do one day make it a production in some capacity because it was so moving and so powerful and it was, Emma, honestly, it was what every public figure has ever tried to explain to me about their experience, yet put so succinctly, powerfully and meaningfully that anyone could relate to it.

And I think anyone, meaning anyone who’s ever felt misunderstood, loved for what they have and not who they are, seen for parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share it one day in however way you decide to.

Because honestly, I was gripped. I was completely captivated. I couldn’t put it down. I feel like I’m going to read it again and again and again. It’s not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest and, and for everyone who’s listening and watching.

I think the lesson from it for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative. That when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone, I was so in awe of that. That therapy in one to one setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in. If it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others, that’s the revelation. Like the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, share, speaking. That’s great and that’s a part of it. But if you can go one step ahead.

Make Art About Your Experiences

EMMA WATSON: Truly, I feel this urgency and desperation to communicate this specific piece which is like make art about your experiences. Like the neurosis of being a writer or anyone making anything is like, “I don’t have anything valuable to say. It’s all been said before. This is so self indulgent, this is so narcissistic. Who even wants to hear this? This is bad.”

I thought all of those thoughts probably most days as I wrote this. But trust me, whatever you think people know about you or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don’t. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays. And you don’t need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really don’t.

And in fact I have to write on my mirror. I have it written on my door. “I am an artist” because I don’t think anyone feels like they deserve that title. I’ve been making films and writing and making art since I was 9 years old and I don’t feel like I deserve that title. And I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have anything that’s worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle, I really, really do.

But there is something about doing it and having a physical thing because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it’s not a great place for them to live. They need to come out somewhere and once you can put them somewhere, then you’re free.

Being understood or feeling like you’re understood by the people around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it’s what we’re looking for when we do so many things. But often that’s not the way to find it. And I just. God, yeah. If I honestly, I want to go to every person in the street and be like, you need to write a one person show about your life and then perform it for your friends and family. Or you need to paint the thing, write the song. Just do it. Because it’s kind of one of the best, most meaningful things I’ve done.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Trying to make sense of it all. Yeah.

Making Art for People You Love

JAY SHETTY: And I love that you did it for your family. Like, that’s the part that proves to me when you say the message of make your art and you know, you don’t need to be a full time actor or director or movie filmmaker. It’s like you actually lived that part. And that’s what I love about it the most, is that you didn’t make it for a stage or a movie or a documentary or whatever.

EMMA WATSON: And honestly, first I wrote it for myself. I didn’t think, I honestly, I didn’t think I had the guts to read this aloud to anyone. I thought it was just for me and maybe two other people and performing it for my. Like, I didn’t even invite my family until two days before because I just didn’t think I had the courage.

Make art for people you love. Like, make beautiful things for people that you love, just for people that you love. Like, that’s one. I guess I had the extraordinary experience of making things for the world basically from such a young age. And I never made anything that I didn’t feel needed to be shared publicly.

And I remember when I made Little Women. I mean, that’s such an amazing thing about Louisa May Alcott is that really she wrote those stories for her sisters. And so many people’s journeys and paths start because, yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just one person.

There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, right, I’m done with university now and now I’m going to just focus full. What I should be doing is just focusing full time on being an actress and, you know, doing all of that. And I completely missed actually that Emma, the academic, Emma the student, Emma the person that needs to constantly be learning things, facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood.

And that without her, I actually couldn’t do it. I needed, I need to have both and that when one gets stripped away. And even as I am, and I explore this in the play as well, it’s like, even as I have returned to some form of normalcy, ordinary life, whatever that looks like to me now, I also can’t kill her off completely, my public person, there’s parts of me that still does need those outlets and to do those things, too. And I’m figuring out what those are.

But I think that’s what’s so complicated about being human. It’s yes and not either or. We need. We need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we want to do. Maybe it’s about not leaving parts of ourselves behind, kind of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry of all of it.

Moving Beyond Labels and Phases

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I think that’s. I mean, you’ve said it so well, and I really feel that that’s what it’s been for me. It’s. I feel like as humans, we’re very good at being like, okay, this chapter of my life is over.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And we do it because labeling helps. But it’s like you went from being a toddler or an infant, you became, you know, a teen, and then a young adult, and then an adult, and then. So we have all these labels.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And it almost feels like we live our life that way. It’s like, okay, I was a student at university, If I went to university. And now I am a. I have a job, and I’m an employee or an entrepreneur or whatever it is. And. And labels are useful, so I’m not going to say they aren’t. But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Which means now there isn’t a yes, and, yeah, it’s an either or so. It’s like, I was an actress, now I’m going to be an academic. And it’s like, well, no, I’m an academic and an actress and whatever else.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You know, And I think that’s what it’s been for me. It’s like, I know that the people that know me best will say, Jay, I love you. Because we can talk about spirituality, we can talk about business, and we can talk about communication, media, art, and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And I’m like, yes. I feel so seen.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: If someone only said one of those things, I’d feel so limited. And what I’ve realized is I’m now at a place where I’ve given myself permission to be all of myself, even if others don’t give me permission to be all of those things.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Because. Yeah.

Accepting Yourself First

EMMA WATSON: And how amazing to get to that point where I realized for a long time I was pushing for. I need everyone to understand me, and I need them to understand these decisions, and I need them to understand that I’m all of these things. And I’m like, but do you really, Emma, do you actually really need them to get it? Or is it enough that you get it, you see it and understand it, and you’re making it possible and giving yourself permission to do that?

And I think once I kind of let go of, okay, it matters way more that I accept myself than that I spend so much energy and time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go, people start getting it. Yeah. Which is. Which is funny.

JAY SHETTY: Emma, how do you see love today?

Understanding Love Beyond Disney Movies

EMMA WATSON: God, what a great question. Oh, I see love today. Oh, okay. I think I have an answer for this. How exciting. I was right there for a minute. I was like to say, God, I hope I do. Am I that deep? Yeah.

Okay, so I think that we don’t talk about love nearly enough, or I think we need to talk about it so much more because I had such a, not a misunderstanding, but I think I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time, which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies this idea that, like, falling in love once it sort of happened to you, it’s like irreversible, you know, like, step into this portal that you can’t get out of anymore because you’ve fallen in love.

And actually, I think falling in love might be quite easy to do in some ways. That’s sort of easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you and things like, can you argue? Well, can you be. Is the conflict that you have generative? And can you make someone else feel safe?

And when I say safe, I don’t mean as a physical danger. I mean, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn’t send the other person into a complete free fall and, or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded? And that kind of compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this, like, is this okay for you? Does this feel good to you? This is how it feels for me.

And like, there’s like that constant back and forth and that constant check in is like a game of check in in a way of, like, can you find someone who’s willing to be as vulnerable as it necessarily requires, I think, to figure out those micro adjustments until you’re sort of in some kind of dance with someone else?

And that is a very different understanding that I’ve come to of what love is than I had. I mean, loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even just lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish I’d understood more before I went into the. I do. I really, really do. What do you think love is, Jay?

JAY SHETTY: Oh, wow. Oh, my gosh. You’re flipping this back, Emma.

EMMA WATSON: This is about you.

JAY SHETTY: It’s not about you.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah. This is a conversation.

JAY SHETTY: I know.

EMMA WATSON: Or does any of what I’ve said resonate?

JAY SHETTY: It does. It does. It resonates a lot.

EMMA WATSON: Am I on the right track, Jay? I need you to tell me.

Jay’s Journey to Understanding Love

JAY SHETTY: I think it resonates a lot. I grew up with a very film, naive Disney version of what love was. I loved that version of love. I love the idea that love was this really romantic, really sweet, writing letters every day kind of love. That’s the love I dreamed of and love I thought of as a kid, at least.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And then, you know, I think I realized that you do all of that with the first person you’re with in your teens, and you kind of think it’s the real thing, but then they’re in a mood every night for no reason, and you’re just people pleasing and trying to figure out what’s going on. And you think it’s all about making that person happy. And so you mold and you bend and you sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very quickly that that wasn’t love.

And I think what’s really interesting about love now is that marrying my wife, who I’ve been with now for 12 years and married for nine.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: And so it’s the longest time I’ve ever spent with anyone. And also the only person I’ve been with after I left the monastery. And so there’s been a certain chapter of my life that I’ve been with her for, and I really feel she’s taught me more about love for two reasons. The first is she doesn’t subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of love at all.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God. What education did she have? Where can I get it?

JAY SHETTY: Literally. And the other part is that I think she’s the only person I’ve ever loved enough to be taught by.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God.

Love as Humility and Learning

JAY SHETTY: Which is a really interesting part of love that I think’s missed. And I feel like love is the humility to feel. It’s humility on both parts because the other person’s not actively teaching and you’re actively receiving.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: So it’s this really strange dance between. It’s almost like if you’re dancing, there has to be a humility on both sides.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Because it’s not that one person leads and the other person follows. It’s the other person’s kind of like, should we do this? Should we try this? There’s an ask and a humility in requesting that.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say, no, we’re going to go in this direction. And that’s a great dance to watch. And I feel like with my wife, she’s never directly taught me, but she’s challenged me in ways that if other people would have, I might have left.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God, how beautiful.

JAY SHETTY: And so why am I staying? And then you go, okay, I’m staying because there’s love. And so love is the ability to be taught without teaching and learning, without feeling like you’re being led or misled. And that, for me, has been a really beautiful lesson. And if I just said this to my wife out loud right now, she would just laugh because she’d just find it funny.

And then she also taught me how to love me for who I was and not what I had. Because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men that I’m friends with and that I’ve spoken to, that we want people to respect us for our success.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And revere us for our accomplishments. It’s how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a nation. And that’s what you were known for. And so my wife’s been with me since before my career took off and I had any success.

And I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more. And she never did. She just didn’t do it.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: And it drove me crazy. And she didn’t do it in a rejecting way or in a, you know, it just didn’t make a difference to her, this isn’t why I love you. And it took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize because, you know, those are the times when you could start liking other people who love you for what you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect for her that she never gave in on that.

EMMA WATSON: Gave in on that.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, she never gave in. And she helped me love myself for who I am. And I think that’s the point that I think I would have. If I had met someone else, I would have valued myself for very different reasons. And knowing you’re with someone who truly is with you because of who you are and your character, and that’s what they honor.

And I think that word honor and respect, probably the last thing I’d say. I think we always say love is respect and based on respect.

Finding Purpose in Partnership

EMMA WATSON: But I wrote a list of things that I tried to be clear with myself about what it is I was really looking for and I really want. And one is someone that I can learn from. So it’s really interesting that you said learning without teaching, teaching without learning, and that kind of reception. Super cool. I really want to be with someone that I can learn from. And I hope that, yeah, as you say, has the humility to be willing to learn from me.

But the other thing is, I think it’s why I was so obsessed with the musical Hamilton, and why so many people have. But maybe this is so funny that we’re on the On Purpose podcast, but are you with someone who, because obviously what you have with someone is wonderful, right? What you two share together. But if you can be in service of a vision that you both share, or at the very least, are you willing to honor and give dignity to the work of the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world, that to me seems far more sustainable than anything else.

And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world. Yes, that I’m important. But they also feel that what I’m here to do is important to them too, and in some way intersects with what they’re here to do.

JAY SHETTY: I couldn’t agree more. That’s exactly what I was going to say.

EMMA WATSON: Is it?

Respect and Supporting Each Other’s Purpose

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that. I think the word respect and relationship is thrown around a lot. But this is the deepest form of respect where there’s a famous quote that I don’t know who said it, but there’s, and I would, you know, you could take the genders out of it now, but there’s a famous quote that says men marry women hoping they’ll never change, and women marry men hoping they can change them.

And to me, wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of disrespect. Because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person values in this moment, and how that evolves. And that’s their purpose, their offering, their values. And at no point are you trying to change them.

And I’ve talked about this often where my wife and I, I do this exercise with couples when I’m working with them, but I’ve also done it in our relationship. And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: And people do it privately and then they share them.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: And so generally, one person will put themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third, and the other person will put the kids first, the partner second, and themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first because there’s this friction of, well, wait a minute, how can you not put the kids first? Well, how can you not put family first or whatever it may be in your given situation?

And the other person’s like, well, if I don’t put myself first, then what can I give to you all? And that kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around. Love means complete sacrifice and love means self sabotage to some degree, or love means putting yourself aside.

And the reality is, actually, no, my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself. And your purpose is to help me do that. When we both do that, everything’s about poetry. And my wife practiced that and she does it naturally. And it’s hard to do that in a world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other person isn’t where you are or, you know, the idea of why haven’t you had kids yet? Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer than a month? Or whatever they may be, because it doesn’t fit into the norm of what relationships look like.

And I was thinking about that with you as well. I know you talked about how getting asked the question, when are you getting married?

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Or why aren’t you married yet?

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And it’s something every woman’s hearing. What’s your reaction when you hear that?

EMMA WATSON: I’m just so happy not to be divorced yet. That sounds like a really negative answer, but I think that we are being pressured and forced into this thing that I believe is a kind of miracle. I might never be worthy of it. I hope it happens to me, but I don’t feel entitled to it. It will either be part of my purpose here and my destiny or it won’t.

And I think the way we treat it as though, well, why haven’t you. And this is something that has to happen in this certain time span and at the certain age in this kind of way is the least romantic thing I can possibly think of. Truly, if I had tried to get married any point basically before about a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn’t know myself well enough yet.

I didn’t have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, how I was going to be of service. I didn’t know where I really felt like I needed to be. I think I have some of those answers now. So when I meet someone, I can say, hi, I’m Emma. This is what I care about. This is where the people I love the most live. This is where it’s meaningful for me to be in the world.

And then they can decide whether they can see that there’s a way that I can serve what they’re trying to do and they can serve what I’m trying to do. But before that, they would have just got a very mixed signal. I mean, there’s some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent, but there are some parts that I was really still teasing out and figuring out.

And I think it’s such a violence and it’s such a cruelty on people, and especially young people, I think, and especially women, to make them feel like they have no worth or like they haven’t succeeded yet in life because they haven’t forced to its culmination something that I just don’t think can or should ever be forced.

It’s something that, honestly, I feel like I’ve had to earn, I’ve had to work for. To be in a place where I feel like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell them who I am and to have some idea, and it will change and grow, of what I want and what I’m here to do. That takes work. I have really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions to be at that point. It hasn’t happened to me yet.

JAY SHETTY: I do think everyone’s worthy of love, but I don’t think that’s what you’re saying either.

EMMA WATSON: I guess maybe partnership or marriage, I guess is what we’re both saying is almost a different game. It’s almost a different playing field actually. Actually co-joining and properly sharing your life with someone and being in partnership with them seems like it’s its own thing.

JAY SHETTY: It is. It takes so much work and it takes so much adjustment and adapting. More than compromising and sacrificing. There’s so much flexibility. There’s so much allowing. It’s so different at different times. Sometimes patience looks like being by that person’s side and saying nothing. And sometimes patience means being halfway across the world and not communicating. And sometimes patience looks like talking and listening.

Patience doesn’t look like one thing over a lifespan. And there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in 12 years, and there are parts that have completely changed. And I have a choice every time that happens to learn to love the new or not. And that’s a choice I have to make and she has to make as well.

And so there’s so much constant choosing and constant evolving that it’s very easy to just be like, yeah, I chose them the day we got married. And people always ask me, I’m like, I don’t think I even knew who my wife was the day we got married. Now when I think about it, I loved her, but I had no idea. And that’s what it should feel like.

I don’t think, if I was here to say the wedding day was one of the best days of my life. But it’s not the day I loved my wife the most. Because I didn’t really even know what I was getting myself into.

EMMA WATSON: That’s amazing.

The Courage of Continuous Truth-Telling

EMMA WATSON: I was thinking recently about trust and telling the truth, and I realized the scary, crazy thing about it seems to me about intimacy is that it seems to be conditional on your ability to keep telling the truth and perhaps even revealing deeper and deeper and deeper truths at the risk that that truth might mean that that person might not continue to choose you.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

EMMA WATSON: So even though you’ve been in this relationship for 12 years, every day, you have to choose to risk it all. If you want there to be continued intimacy by continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And that seems so courageous to me.

In order for that to be genuine connection and close to, you have to be willing to risk it all sometimes. Probably almost constantly. And that it seems like it takes so much courage because we don’t like change. We don’t want things to change. So you also want a relationship that’s alive and still living and breathing and not some dead thing.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. So well said. And what you’re saying is that feeling of when you’re not actually being truthful consistently, that’s when we feel people have had big changes at their life. Because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the change felt more smooth and gradual.

Whereas when the change came like a wrecking ball where I have this feeling and I’m just telling you, it’s because I didn’t tell you about all the little incremental changes. And sometimes you don’t know it’s even happening. So it’s not your fault or this is not something that you can say has to be the case. But I think that’s why being more truthful, more honest, more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual.

It’s almost like going back to your dance analogy. If you’re about to throw someone up in the air and catch them, there has to have been a touch or a preparation before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air and it’s like, yeah, well, I would have liked a warning.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And that’s why your analogy is so good. Because you would throw someone up in a dance at some point if you were both talented and gifted enough. But there would have been a preparation, there would have been a nod, there would have been a look, a feel, a touch, to set that up.

And yes, one of the hardest questions you talked about asking yourself difficult questions. And I want to ask you something about that. But one thing I’ve said to my wife is, if you ever fall out of love with me, please tell me, because I don’t want to live a day without love.

I’m really confident about the fact that I’m worthy of love and that I want to experience love in my life. If you ever fall out of me, just tell me it’s okay. Because I don’t have the desire to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that an extreme. But to me it’s a greater risk to have spent 10 extra years with someone and then they tell me, I haven’t really loved you for the last five, 10 years.

And then I’m like, wait a minute, I’ve lived without love for 10 years of my life and I don’t want to be in that place because I’ve seen people go through that and not be happy. And so it does come with a humility and an openness to have very difficult conversations and not to force something that, oh, it’s been going great for 12 years. It has to, it should do, it must do. And it’s like, well, maybe no. Yes, if it does, it’s great. And it is right now. But why should right now be a prediction for how you feel in 15 years with everything else that’s going to change?

Wanting Versus Needing

EMMA WATSON: I think if I knew I really couldn’t meet the needs of someone and they couldn’t meet my needs, if I really couldn’t make them happy and they couldn’t make me happy, forcing them to stay in that situation, surely that makes love impossible, negates. So I totally get what you’re saying.

And my mum said this thing to me which was, you want to be with someone because you want them, not because you need them. And I think maybe another reason why I didn’t get married younger is because I think maybe I would have married someone not knowing who I was and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them.

And I think now I have a life that’s whole and complete as it is and I would be making a choice from a place of, I just want you and I don’t need you, but I just want you. And I don’t think I was that woman five years ago.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I love that. And there’s so much to be said for attracting from a place of peace because you know what peace feels like. And so then anyone or anything that comes into your life…

EMMA WATSON: And what feeling satisfied feels like.

JAY SHETTY: Satisfied is probably even a better word. And that feeling of, I know what it feels like to be satisfied. And so I now know whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.

EMMA WATSON: I know what my baseline is. You don’t know what your baseline happy is, then how do you have any idea of knowing what’s going on at all.

JAY SHETTY: And that’s not a feeling of being complete or having it all figured out. It’s like, I know satisfied is a great word. It’s like, I know what it feels like to be at peace with myself or satisfied with myself. And now everyone can show me where that pendulum swings.

The Hardest Questions

JAY SHETTY: One thing you said, which really resonated with me, is that you’ve had to ask yourself so many hard questions to do the work. And I wanted to ask you what’s one of the hardest questions you’ve ever had to ask yourself, if you could recall?

EMMA WATSON: Well, the first one that comes to mind, and then maybe I’ll dig for a deeper, different one, is to have to admit to myself or ask myself the question of, you right now have the career and the life that looks like the dream, but are you really happy, Emma? Are you really healthy? Are you really happy? Is this really what you want?

And to be at that point and realize and have to admit to myself that I wasn’t and I didn’t was one of the scariest things I’ve ever had to do because, you know, I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis. I felt like I was crazy. And walking away from something without knowing what you’re walking towards, not having the answers, but leaving something that was, that the world considered to be such of such high value, such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career.

I think that was a real sitting with. That was a real moment of reckoning, of can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most other people, your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable? That was definitely a hard moment of sitting.

More recently, because I’ve been being my own partner, asking myself, are you really living your values, things that you preach? Are you actually aligned and actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, shit, no, not at all. I’m actually not doing what I talk about. And I need to create some sort of urgency or a deadline for that so that I make sure that I am a person of integrity.

I purport to be someone that cares about the world and about the planet and sustainability. And, you know, there are some things I was doing. Was it enough by my own standards? Not by anyone else’s, just by my own. Probably not. But what’s nice is I actually have the time now to be like, okay, what are you going to do about it? Get on with it.

The Cost of Continuing

JAY SHETTY: But those are great questions. Really, really great questions. And so hard for so many reasons, especially when you talked about when you’re stepping away from and stepping toward. Did you have people in the industry or people that you could talk to that felt the same way? Like, did you have co-stars or friends or… No. Wow.

EMMA WATSON: No, I don’t know anyone else. I’ll never say that I quit acting. I’ll always be an actor. I’m still open to doing it again, but I certainly made a decision to take time to figure out, to not know.

I had this whole disassembling, the structure that’s needed to carry the load of Emma Watson. There’s an agent and a publicist and a manager and a personal assistant, and there’s all these people and lives who are intertwined with mine. Navigating and caring for and negotiating that with people as well was really tricky. And I was just bloody terrified.

I think there’s a kind of infantilization that can happen when you work as much as I did, and a kind of loss of independence that means that you’re like, “Oh, my God, can I even do my life if I don’t have this army of people who are helping me do the most menial and basic of things?” Can I actually do this stuff myself?

And I don’t even say that in terms of capability, but just from the place of it’s difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes. So if I’m going to start to take on truly the responsibility for most of my life myself, what’s that going to be like? Can I really do that stuff? I think failure, shame, makes you feel like you can’t do things for yourself in a way that can really disempower you and remove your confidence and autonomy as a human being. That’s really disabling.

JAY SHETTY: And for everyone who’s wondering, yeah, Emma called me up and I was like, “Should I speak to your publicist?” She’s like, “No, I am my publicist.” I was like, “Do I need to check with the manager?” Nope, I am my manager. And that was literally the conversation. Yeah, she booked this podcast herself. There was no booker. There was no booking system. There was no reach out. It was literally Emma doing it herself, which is proof you are living your values.

EMMA WATSON: Thank you.

JAY SHETTY: And you are aligned with what you’re saying. I wanted people to know that.

EMMA WATSON: Thank you. I appreciate that. What’s so funny, though, now is because I do everything myself, there’s a 50% chance you would have not thought it was me. Sometimes when I reach out to people…

JAY SHETTY: I had plenty of moments. I had to double check. I was like, “Wait a minute, verified tick, verified tick, amount of followers…”

EMMA WATSON: Who think it’s not me. And so I have a 50/50 rate of people actually just not responding to me because they don’t think I’d be reaching out myself.

JAY SHETTY: That’s real. I had to do a secondary multiple times. I think I rejected this morning.

EMMA WATSON: Definitely hurt, definitely error.

JAY SHETTY: Am I going to turn up in some catfish situation?

EMMA WATSON: No. It’s wild. Yeah, it’s oddly sometimes it takes more work, me trying to do things myself than through the system.

Choosing the Unclear Path

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I know you did a great job. But yeah, those hard questions that you asked yourself, I mean, what was it that gave you courage to walk a path where you don’t know the next three steps when you have an entire career lined up on the other side?

You have an amazing career. Every movie you’ve been in has been magical and amazing. When you look at your portfolio of choices, they’re all brilliant performances, they’re great films. And you only would have more of that. So it’s also not like you’re leaving a career that’s kind of had its… Do you know what I mean?

It’s at a place where no business-oriented person could imagine why. And so what gives you courage when one side is so clear and one side is not clear at all?

EMMA WATSON: Again, I’m going to tell the honest version of this story. I’d love to tell you that it was this incredible courage and determination I have inside of me. And yes, there’s part of that. I’m not going to completely erase my role in all of this, but I think a big part was that it was coming to a point with my health and nervous system where I was starting to hit a point of not no return, but…

It’s interesting. I eat well, I do yoga, I do meditate, I do all the things right. But I think I was using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was under as opposed to actually what those things are really for, which are compasses and points towards our truth.

And I was using them as a way of bolstering myself and allowing myself to continue down a path that actually was kind of wrecking me. And I think it was just my immune system couldn’t pretend anymore.

When the Body Says No

EMMA WATSON: I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my immune system was so low that I would just constantly be getting sick, a sinus infection and whatever else. My body just started being like, “No.”

I went from being someone who, I would say, I still handle stress and pressure well, and in the moment, I could always do it. But the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious to the point where…

I remember I was in my early 20s when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker. I was nervous before a carpet, and it’s the only other time I ever took anything. And I was fine for the two hours after I took it. And then I got back to the room and when my feelings came back to me, I was overwrought with grief and feeling of having blocked it.

And so after that, I never allowed anyone to give me anything again. Even though I was offered things multiple times and doctors wanted to give me things for jet lag and for sleep and for nerves and, “Oh, everyone takes it. This is, you know, there’s no shame in this or whatever.”

But I just felt like in order to keep going, I was going to have to make a decision of, “Are you okay with being low-level unwell and medicated, essentially?” And I just knew that wasn’t a choice for me.

So in a way, I have my body to thank because my body just… I didn’t want to ignore my body anymore. And it didn’t matter how many silent retreats I went on or how much yoga I did or what new thing I did to try and take care of myself, my body was done.

Finding a New Relationship with Practice

EMMA WATSON: And that was then, I think, when I went away and found a relationship with myself and my practice and just having trust and faith in a way that I never had before. And I started listening more carefully to these little whispers of, “Oh, maybe this should be the thing you do,” or even coming and doing this of, “I think you should go and do this podcast.”

Just listening to myself for clues, basically, and listening to the universe, whatever that means. But I never had that before. I never knew how to listen for those things before I truly went away and had nothing for a while. So that was probably the best result of all of that.

JAY SHETTY: And I think it still takes so much courage, because it does. Even though you didn’t see it that way and you may not have noticed it, it still takes so much courage to listen to your body because it is easy to keep medicating in all the ways to break it anyway.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And to push it to the edges and the limits of its ability. And because you’re so addicted or intoxicated by the success or whatever it may be.

EMMA WATSON: I guess the courageous part was just knowing I didn’t want to numb out. That was the point at which it got too big of a cost because I was like, “Okay, if I feel like I need to be…” I’m at the point where the price is too high now.

Compass to Truth, Not Band-Aid

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. I loved what you said about when they’re meant to be compass to our truth and not this band-aid pacification of…

EMMA WATSON: And I’ve been highly, really effectively using those band-aids. They will carry you far. I had a lot of practice.

JAY SHETTY: I think that’s how they’re presented now too. It’s become this… And that’s why when you said that, I think you… It’s almost like I’m trying to think of a good metaphor, but the one that’s coming to my mind, it’s almost like driving to the grocery store in a sports car. And it’s like a sports car’s made for this high-speed track. That’s what it’s for.

EMMA WATSON: Yep.

JAY SHETTY: But you’re using it just to drive 25 miles an hour to the grocery store.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And it’s like, no, it has so much more capability and ability to take you somewhere phenomenally. But you’re using it for a really simple, basic task.

The Point of No Return

EMMA WATSON: Not going to lie though. I remember when I did my first Vipassana and sat long enough and I went to my teacher and I was like, “What have I done?”

JAY SHETTY: Go and tell me about this.

EMMA WATSON: What have I done?

JAY SHETTY: What do you mean? In what way?

EMMA WATSON: Because in a way it was almost like I realized once you start paying attention to your truth, it’s very difficult to go back. And in some way it felt like I was like, “Oh my God, I don’t know if I like this. I don’t know if I like this so good. Maybe I want to go back.”

And once you step through it, you kind of can’t go back. And I remember him looking at me calmly and saying, “Could you even go back now even if you wanted to?” And I was like, “I guess not. I guess this is the path I’ve chosen to walk.”

And to some degree, in the same way that getting cast as Hermione and making my peace with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders, I think trusting that is… That’s all I can do at this point. I’m just holding on for dear life.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, it’s like the mafia. Once you’re in, you know too much.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, it’s true. I’ll never forget that moment. I’ll never forget that moment. “Oh, no. This is undoable now, isn’t it?” And he was like, “Kinda.” Yeah, I was like, “Oh, no, it’s so uncomfortable. It’s so uncomfortable being asked with myself and then I have to be honest with other people as well. This is a nightmare. Why did I do this? Why am I here? Oh, God.”

JAY SHETTY: I’m just imagining you on the Vipassana retreat coming out of it and just having that reaction. Yeah, it’s so funny. So good. That needs to get added to the play.

EMMA WATSON: Okay.

JAY SHETTY: That moment needs to be added to the play.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, I wrote something. I wrote something about my doing the 10-day Vipassana for the first time. Because my God, that is such a… It’s such a roller coaster. Yeah, it’s such a roller coaster.

JAY SHETTY: Anything you want to share about?

The Gift of Asking for Help

EMMA WATSON: Sure, yeah. I don’t want to bore you to death. I mean, I think what was funny was like, I have this picture that I drew of day two, and it’s like green and pink and there’s butterflies on it. And it literally says—this is so embarrassing—it says, “I am beautiful.”

I just felt like I was like, oh, my God, this is bliss. I was riding this wave of meditation ecstasy, basically. Whatever dopamine hit I was getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable.

And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind of brick wall of, oh, my God. All the things in life that you think are outside of you actually live inside you. And so even when you’re in this beautiful place, on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all of these wonderful enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy.

And even the salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you start to take on the shapes of your real life. And you realize that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you, even though there’s nothing going on, literally. And it was just—it was such a wild experience to kind of sit there and be like, oh, my God, I’m creating all of my own drama. This is a nightmare. It’s me. It’s me. I’m the problem.

And I was like, I can’t stay here. I can’t do this. This is way too hard. Living with myself and my own thoughts is going to—this is unbearable. I can’t do this.

That was a really big learning and one I have to remember all the time is, as a perfectionist, which again is a kind of violence on yourself, I would try to shame and blame myself into and kind of shake myself up and give myself these kinds of talkings to make myself do stuff. And sometimes, to be honest with you, they work in the short term and in the long term they fail you miserably. They just do not work.

The only way that I have learned to change my patterns, to show up for myself better, to change in the ways I want to change and grow is to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was a massive gift.

JAY SHETTY: It’s amazing. I love how someone that you can attend a class with can become such a big teacher for you when you allow it to be. And yeah, you know, someone who wasn’t the leader or the guide of the group can have such an impact on you. Did you want to—speaking about love, did you want to share the—is it the practice that you went through recently with? Is that what you—

EMMA WATSON: Oh, yeah, the ring.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, the ring.

The Ring of Community

EMMA WATSON: Oh my God, that’s sweet of you to remember I mentioned that. Yeah, yeah, I guess having gone through this odyssey which has been the last, I guess seven years, I was like, okay, I kind of feel like I’ve got to a place—and this will continue forever—where I want to celebrate where I ended up after I kind of left land, it felt like.

And yeah, I did a ritual with, or just a day of celebrating with my friends and chosen family. And they each bought me this ring which has 22 petals on it, and each of them bought one. And I’ve just never owned anything so valuable in my life because to me it represents the life that I’ve built, which was the one that I really wanted, which was one that was made up of community and my roots and faith and trust.

And in some funny way, it signals to me that even though I have no outward signs of my success, save for this crazy one woman play I’ve written—I don’t even have my degree yet—it signals to me that for me I achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself.

JAY SHETTY: Wow.

EMMA WATSON: So that’s pretty cool. I love that every time I look down on my finger, I can see all of the faces of the people who bought it for me. You’re amazing at holding space. You’re so kind. The amount of people who’ve probably sat in this chair and been as emotional as I have, and you don’t turn away. It’s amazing.

JAY SHETTY: It’s easy with you.

EMMA WATSON: That was very kind. Thank you.

JAY SHETTY: It’s really easy because it’s really heartfelt. And you shared so much with me before today and today that I felt like you shared—you created that space for me to sit with you before today and today.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

What Makes a Real Friend

JAY SHETTY: What makes a real friend? So you said you had 22.

EMMA WATSON: 22, yeah.

JAY SHETTY: 22 friends. What defines a good friend for you?

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God. For me, I’ve never killed anyone in my life, and I have no intention of killing anyone, but it’s the person who you can call when you’re like—that would help you carry the dead body across the—you know what I mean? The person you call. You’re like, “Shit, I think I’ve done this thing, and I need you to either tell me I’m crazy or tell me I’m not crazy or tell me the truth or help me fix it or—I don’t know.”

I think it’s the people that—God, it’s the people that you just do not have to have airs and graces with and who you can just be like, “This just happened and it’s such a disaster.” And yeah. And I don’t know. People, I think, also who can handle your truths, your real truths and vulnerabilities—they’re sacred and with care.

I think that’s been very important for me because I think maybe part of my bravado is I’ll make a joke of—or I’ll be brave about things I don’t feel very brave about. And it takes someone who knows me quite well to go, “She’s making a joke about this.”

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: She’s literally dying inside, and I kind of know that. And I’m going to hold her through it.

Yeah. I think real friends are the ones when you’re in a really tight corner and not just that will show up begrudgingly, but be like, “What are we dealing with today?” And maybe we’ll enjoy that or see that as an honor and a privilege, actually.

I think that’s been a big learning for me, and it’s an honor and a gift when someone asks you for help or when they need you. And I think I used to feel really embarrassed about needing anything from anyone or asking for help. I used to see it as a great shame, something I was really embarrassed to do.

And now I see it as—I guess, knowing how I feel when someone asks me for help that I really love and how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else—I try to remind myself that when I’m feeling like I couldn’t possibly burden someone else with something, I remind myself, “Emma, do you remember how good it felt that someone asked you to show up for them and that you got to be there for them at their worst or darkest?”

And so I think, coming to understand—I think I also confused codependency or—I didn’t—we are so interdependent as species. And we—there’s no shame in needing and wanting other people. I didn’t understand. I didn’t understand. And I do. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: I love the answer. I love how it started. “As if I ever kill someone,” which—

EMMA WATSON: I would, I swear. And I haven’t. I won’t.

The Power of Interdependence

JAY SHETTY: So good. It’s so good. It’s so funny. I did not expect you to say that. It was so good. So surprising. I love it. But no, it’s so true. When I left the monastery and even though I was with my wife and we got into a relationship and we’re dating, I used to always feel like I didn’t—I always—I had this false mindset because of my immaturity and understanding what being a monk was.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: In that it was in this independent way.

EMMA WATSON: Right.

JAY SHETTY: Of not needing or wanting anyone. And that we were in a relationship and it was great. But that wasn’t—and I held that immature—and I probably verbalized it to her too many times for too long at the beginning of our relationship. I have no idea why she stayed.

It took recently—this was so recent. This was maybe a couple of months ago—when I realized that I shouldn’t have said that years ago. But then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes, “You’re my calm. You calm my nervous system.” And I was like, “You’re my joy. You bring joy to every part of my life.”

And it was—that exchange was so needed and so powerful after having for so long feeling like, “Oh, I have everything I need anyway.” And I do. I genuinely believe that. But it’s—what you said is that we’re interdependent for a reason.

EMMA WATSON: Yes. We co-regulate.

JAY SHETTY: My wife had so much—it’s like saying, “I don’t need salt added on to this meal.” And the meal’s great. And it’s like, “I don’t need any more salt.” And it’s like, well, now if you add a little bit of salt, it would make it a bit better.

EMMA WATSON: It would be way better.

JAY SHETTY: Way better. And it’s—and we kind of live in that life of, “I don’t want to add anything to this.” And it’s almost a defense mechanism because we’re so scared that there may not be someone to add.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God.

JAY SHETTY: And I’ve lived there, so that resonated very strongly.

EMMA WATSON: I think that was one of the other gifts, actually, of getting to a point where I used to be this, “I’m so tough and I can do anything” person. And being at the point where I was like, “I actually think I’m not okay.” And my body forcing me to ask other people for help was the biggest gift of my life because it brought me so much closer to other people.

And I learned that not only is it not a burden, it’s genuinely—yeah—a privilege and a gift sometimes to have someone ask you that, ask you that question or be honest about the ways that they need you. And it’s crazy how long it takes these things.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely. You’ve done so much inner work and self work, and I’m wondering what’s the work you’ve been avoiding? What’s the work you’ve been putting off?

The Work of Integration

EMMA WATSON: Wow. I think it’s probably something around now tying it all together. I think in some ways, me being here today is me trying to do the piece I’ve been avoiding, maybe, which is, okay, you know, you want to show up as a full, integrated whole self and not compartmentalize and spread, split and fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe.

And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very necessary for a long time because I was trying to keep some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then be ready to share those pieces.

But I think it’s probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I know aren’t good for me and that are genuinely just toxic. But to, yeah, have the courage to show up now in whatever form that is and trust again, whether that’s a person or it’s making something or it’s kind of—okay, have you learned enough that you can integrate and share now that you’ve done this inner work on your own.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. And that feels—that resonates. Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard. It’s hard to verbalize. It’s almost like it is that you’ve been private for so long.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And you’ve been working in private on your fascinations, your curiosities, your friends, your inner work. And then to actually come out and talk about—

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: What that period has been like publicly.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Is something you can keep pushing off. And—

EMMA WATSON: And maybe how that ties into partnership is that I’ve realized actually that some of the people I’ve been attracting on the dating front think they’re dating some previous version of me who still exists in some ways, but who isn’t actually who I am now.

And I realized I was like, “Oh, I’m still getting sent people who are seeing someone who was part of the picture but not the whole picture.” And it’s starting to feel uncomfortable to not feel like I’m telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.

JAY SHETTY: It’s even harder for you to be like, “Well, these are the parts that are still there. And these are—” It’s not a didactic process of—

EMMA WATSON: No.

JAY SHETTY: It’s not an equation where you can go, well, these are the parts that I’ve kept.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: These are the parts that are not like, it doesn’t work like, no, it.

EMMA WATSON: Doesn’t work like that. It doesn’t work like that. But I’m still getting requests that want to drag me a little bit more into a version of myself who was great and she was doing great stuff. But I think there’s a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak to you one on one in this kind of setting, as opposed to what I used to do, which would be an enormous audience and there’d be like 300 people there. And like, of course there’s intimacy you can find in a room like that.

JAY SHETTY: That.

EMMA WATSON: But like, the truth is it’s really difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind of connections that I know are the ones that nourish me personally. And that’s. It’s different for everyone, but that just aren’t allowing me to have the thing that I know there’s the real thing that I’m actually seeking. And what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and thinking I’d be able to get and keep and just not. Not being able to find mind.

Navigating Public Disagreement with J.K. Rowling

JAY SHETTY: I mean, something I wanted to ask you about. That’s difficult and challenging because it’s something you spoke about earlier as to being such a big part of your life, an important part of your life. But recently there’s been so many conversations and comments directly from J.K. Rowling. Whether it’s her saying she’d never forgive you for your views or the fact that when she was asked what ruins the movies for her, she named yourself and some of your co-stars. And I imagine that’s an extremely difficult thing when you’ve been a part of someone’s world when you felt connected to their work and then for it now to kind of be a full 180 and for someone to publicly say these things, that can be quite or extremely hurtful actually. How do you think about that?

EMMA WATSON: I really don’t believe that by having had that experience and holding the love and support and views that I have mean that I can’t and don’t treasure Jo and the person that I, that I had personal experiences with. I will never believe that one negates the other and that my experience of that person I don’t get to keep and cherish.

To come back to our earlier thing, like, I just don’t think these things are either or. I think my deepest wish that I hope people who don’t agree with my opinion will love me and I hope I can keep loving people who I don’t necessarily share the same opinion with. And I think that’s a very, very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life.

I just really. I guess I. To circle back around. I really do believe in having conversations and that those are really important and that. I don’t know. I guess where I’ve landed is.

JAY SHETTY: It’s.

EMMA WATSON: Not so much what we say or what we believe, but very often how we say it. That’s really important and that’s really frustrating and not what you want to hear when you’re really angry and upset with someone. But I don’t know, I just see this world right now where we seem to be giving permission for this kind of throwing out of people or that people are disposable.

And I just think that’s. I will always think that’s wrong. I just believe that no one’s disposable and everyone, as far as possible, whatever the conversation is, should and can be treated with, at the very least, dignity and respect.

JAY SHETTY: Thank you for challenging us. And yeah, it takes a lot. I think that’s what we’re all being challenged to do. Is try and hold two truths at once. And yes, those two truths don’t have to be complementary, but they, they can stand at the same time.

EMMA WATSON: I think the thing I’m most upset about is that a conversation was never made possible.

JAY SHETTY: So you remain open for that dialogue.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah, and I always will. I believe in that. I believe in that completely. I believe in that completely. I just don’t. Yeah, I just don’t want to say anything that continues to weaponize a really toxic debate and conversation, which is maybe why I, I, I don’t. Well, it is why I don’t comment or continue to comment.

Not because I don’t care about her or about the issue, but because I just. The way that the conversation is being had feels really painful to me. And so that’s why, that’s why that decision.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I really appreciate that mindset and deeply, deeply feel like if people are challenged to go there themselves, it takes a lot to think that way and feel that way.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And it’s, it’s what, it’s what healing really requires across, you know, around the world. And I can’t imagine how many young people who look up to you and people who look up to you will feel the same way to recognize that that’s how we engage. That’s what we look for. We. Yeah, it’s, it’s not that we’re trying to make everything pretty and perfect.

EMMA WATSON: No, no.

JAY SHETTY: It’s that. No, we’re willing to engage in an uncomfortable conversation.

EMMA WATSON: Her kindness and words of encouragement and that steadfastness that. And also, honestly, just as a young woman, to, for her to have written that character, created that world, given me an opportunity which, to be honest, barely exists in the history of English literature. You know, how can I. There’s just no world in which I could ever cancel her out or cancel that out for anything.

It has to remain true. It is true. And this is where this holding of these. I just don’t know what else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible things together at the same time and just, just hope maybe they will one day resolve or co-join themselves and maybe accept that they never will, but that they can both still be true.

And I can love her. I can know she loved me. I can be grateful to her. I can know the things that she said are true and that can be this whole other thing. And my job feels like, to just hold, just to hold all of it. But the bigger thing is just what she’s done will never be taken away from me.

Holding Two Opposing Ideas

JAY SHETTY: Thanks for setting such a powerful example.

EMMA WATSON: Thank you.

JAY SHETTY: That beautiful F. Scott Fitzgerald quote that “the sign of a first rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” So he goes on to say, “one should therefore be able to see that the world is hopeless, but still be determined to make it otherwise.” And it’s like that’s.

EMMA WATSON: Scott Fitzgerald said that. Wow. He ran deeper than I knew.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Wow. That’s incredible. That’s incredible.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. It’s one of my favorite.

EMMA WATSON: Wow. Well done you for remembering that second part. Wow. You’ve made me like Fitzgerald a lot. I mean, I liked him, don’t get me wrong.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. To me it’s my. It’s one of my favorite ideas.

EMMA WATSON: So good.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, it’s so good.

EMMA WATSON: That’s so good. Yeah.

Speaking Out on Palestine

JAY SHETTY: Emma, for someone who has tried to stay out of the public eye.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You’ve still been vocal about causes. You believe in things that you stand for.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And that always seems to get attention and reaction. And so when you. You shared online your solidarity for Palestine, the former Israeli UN ambassador Danny Danon called you an anti-Semite and his tweet said “10 points from Gryffindor for being an anti-Semite.” What goes through your mind when you see that.

EMMA WATSON: This happened a few years ago now. I think what concerned me at the time was the way that that label was being used. And I think even now I see that playing out where we aren’t. People don’t feel like they can talk about what’s happening safely.

This duality created where we don’t seem able to care about the victims of terrorism and care about the genocide that’s happening in Palestine at the same time. And both things have to be allowed to be true. You have to be allowed to care about 50,000 civilians dying, 17,000 of which are children, and care deeply about the victims of this awful terrorist attack.

JAY SHETTY: I appreciate you sharing that. And yeah. It seems like that belief system you have in. Yes. And in this and together it kind of runs through so many areas of your life.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Personal and beyond.

EMMA WATSON: Yes, I think that’s. I think that’s true. I think that’s true.

JAY SHETTY: True. I hope that you felt you’ve been able to share the parts of yourself and the version of yourself that you wanted to and intended to.

EMMA WATSON: I hope so. I feel very hot and very hot and I feel a little bit like, is this room even real? Like, are we. Is this like a God? Our play where we’re in some sort of existential room that doesn’t exist in a second.

JAY SHETTY: All the work, honestly, I feel a.

EMMA WATSON: Little bit like that. But as long as this was real and these are. These four walls are actually here, then, yes, I do feel that way. And I. Or like I’ve done everything I can in a context that’s still. I can still see cameras and lights, and I know there’s a person behind me, but I feel to the extent to which I. I can humanly do that, I’ve shown up for myself and for you in a way.

And the invitation that this podcast is and the work that you do in the world. I’ve answered that invitation, so I feel. I feel good about that.

Final Five

JAY SHETTY: And I’ve got. I know it’s a bit hard, but I’ve got a couple of questions we end on with every episode.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: These are your final five.

EMMA WATSON: Okay.

JAY SHETTY: They have to be answering one word to one sentence maximum. But I will probably ignore that rule, as I always do.

EMMA WATSON: Amazing.

JAY SHETTY: So question number one is, we ask these to everyone who’s ever been on the show. What is the best advice you’ve ever heard or received?

EMMA WATSON: I’m going to cheat slightly, if you’ll allow it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: I read “Emergent Strategy” by Adrienne Maree Brown. It was given to me as a gift by my friend Anne Marie for my 30th birthday. And I think, think that being a good, pious, Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I worked hard enough and if I was kind of saintly enough that someone would see my good deeds and all of my hard work and give me the sticker, you know, give me the star.

And so I kind of. Of martyrdom was part of my sort of. I understood, was important in my. And I think reading her book and reading about pleasure activism, which is sort of the idea that anything that you need to. That you want to sustain, e.g., justice, you need it to be easy and you need it to be pleasurable in a way, because that’s what’s going to mean that you’ll be able to do it for a long time.

Part of my burnout was that I wasn’t prioritizing pleasure and joy as kind of underpinning for even some of the harder, more somber, cerebral things that I was doing. And I think that’s such a great answer that changed my life.

And I think we also have a model, particularly within activism and lots of spaces that this kind of sole individual, charismatic leader. And I, like you, my heroes were always Martin Luther King and Gandhi. And you just saw this sort of solitary person that was doing that.

And I think if I could go back and do anything differently, it would be that when I embarked on some of the public activism that I did, I wouldn’t go in the way I did. I would go in with what I have now, which is not just an activist community. Like, I have friends who can give me feedback and who I can talk to and who I feel that I’m not doing the work alone solo, however heroic that might look.

Yeah, I guess heroicism and martyrdom, the way that it was looked, maybe. I just don’t believe that’s how we’ll get the job done anymore. I think anything good will get done. So I think that book and I think that idea that revolutionized my approach.

JAY SHETTY: I love that yes answer. Beautiful. I want to read that book now. Yeah, I haven’t read it.

EMMA WATSON: You start from the podcast?

The Worst Advice Ever Received

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I should. Yeah, absolutely. Question number two. What is the worst advice you’ve ever heard or received?

EMMA WATSON: Oh, so much. How long have you got? God, mostly just a lot of stuff around, toughen up, bottle it up, deal with that later. You know, just subtle versions of, well, maybe tell the truth, but just not all of it. Maybe just tell a little bit of it, but not the whole thing, you know, because the truth is…

The problem with telling three quarters of the truth is that then you’re sort of in this constant peeling and unpeeling of yourself where you’re sort of trying to do it, but you’re not quite doing it. And I don’t know, I think a lot of advice around that.

And also, anyone that tells you not to do what you love, terrible advice. Doing what you love will lead you where you need to go, even if you can’t see it at the time. Yeah, yeah.

Terrible, terrible beauty tips and advice given around, I don’t know, just all the ridiculous, ridiculous things that you are encouraged to try and do as a woman, like fake tan. And I mean, it’s hilarious. I actually, right now, it might be well covered up, but I accidentally have a bottle of fake tan in my bathroom. And in my jet lag state last night I thought I was putting moisturizer on, but now I have these horrific fake tan marks on my legs and feet.

I guess I’m just thinking about, oh, my God. And recently I was like, okay, okay, I want to get my teeth whitened. And I looked like Ross from Friends when he’d had that awful fake tanning accident because they were just way too white. And then I had to spend, go back to two other visits to get the dentist to put my teeth back to my normal teeth.

So I guess I was just laughing thinking about worse advice is just like, don’t ever listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do anything weird to you, your body, face, appearance. Just don’t listen. Don’t take the bait. Just don’t do it.

Choosing Work Projects Differently

JAY SHETTY: So good question number three. How are you now going to choose work projects or activism differently?

EMMA WATSON: Does the person that’s asking me to do something with them, can they confidently look at me and say that they care about me far more than what we’re producing and do I care about them that way?

One of my favorite people I worked with, Steve Chbosky, I remember him leaving what was a very productive rehearsal or script meeting with Logan Lerman, Ezra Miller and I, and he was like, “I need to go and be with my wife now.” And we were like, I don’t think I’ve ever heard. I mean, at that point, I certainly hadn’t ever heard a director in my career say they needed to leave for a personal reason or for a personal relationship.

But I worked far harder for Steve than I worked for any other director because I think I was able to be a far, give a far more vulnerable performance in that film because I felt that he really cared about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that who, for whom the process is as important as the outcome and the people that are part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is.

I think this is a really difficult thing that I see everywhere in the world right now is that we treat objects and things like they’re sacred and we don’t treat people like they’re the sacred thing. And that switch. Yeah, I think it causes a lot of pain.

Working with Young People

JAY SHETTY: Emma, something that you told me when we were speaking on the phone was that you’ve been working with young people, people on helping them with some of the challenges that you faced in your own career and your own life.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And I remember being so touched by that and I wanted to learn more and for you to share it because I, yeah, I just think it’s really special. And I was sharing it with on my team before you arrived and everyone was quite drawn to it.

EMMA WATSON: So as a young person and you know, as I basically shared over however long it’s been that we’ve been speaking, I just really needed to be having more conversations with people my own age and people that were older than me. I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems on my own, and I just didn’t know who to really speak to. And I was speaking to such a narrow group of people about what I was trying to navigate.

And I just, I think that working with young people and giving them each other and also the space, the reason, the excuses to talk about the things that we don’t talk about or create spaces for has been the most gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I felt in a long time, because it turns out pretty often that a lot of the things that we’re struggling with, other people are struggling with as well.

And so in a way, going back around and trying to put out into the world a lot of the things that I knew I needed as a young person and didn’t get, it’s been the best, most gratifying thing. And I feel really lucky to be in a position and in a place where I can say, “I’ve kind of done this treacherous journey, and I think that I think I might have some ideas about what might be needed for someone to come out the other side of that safely.” So it feels good to be of use.

One Law for Everyone

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I love that. Fifth and final question. We ask this to every guest who’s ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

EMMA WATSON: Oh, wow. One law. Okay, there’s a couple of contenders I want to run you through. One of you, one is going to be…

JAY SHETTY: We’ll vote on them.

EMMA WATSON: Okay, great. Perfect. One would be around the importance of telling the truth or speaking your truth or just because I feel like so much, so much chaos is caused by people not being sure whether or not they should or it’s a good idea to, or. I think that would be a pretty amazing one. Another contender, I mean, it’s the obvious one, is treat other people as you would like to be treated. That would obviously solve a lot of problems as well.

JAY SHETTY: I like that one you gave.

EMMA WATSON: The last one.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, the first one. The first one.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, the first one. Yeah. The truth. Yeah. I guess it took me a long time and probably, probably through doing my yoga teacher training. Speaking truth with kindness is one of the first niyamas. Right? Very disappointed. I can’t remember what the word is in not sattva. Maybe, yeah. Speaking the truth is kind. Like speaking the truth is kindness.

There’s amazing, there’s an amazing quote which actually is given to me recently by a friend, which is like the truth. “The truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without truth is manipulation.”

JAY SHETTY: Say that again.

EMMA WATSON: “Truth without kindness is brutality and kindness without truth is manipulation.”

And so when I say tell your truth, I don’t mean going around just being awful to everyone. I mean telling the microscopic truth and having those, being willing to have a tolerance for those conversations.

One of my favorite metaphors, I actually wrote about this recently for being in a relationship with anyone is like, you’re in, it’s, in a way, it’s a dance, it’s a fight. I think about boxing in the sense of, who is going to go down to the mat with you and not tap out because being honest about what’s really going on is uncomfortable and it’s risky.

As we talked about earlier, you risk every time you tell the truth of maybe losing someone that you love because you don’t know how they’re going to respond to whatever your dream truth is. But I think to live that way creates the intimacy and connection that I think we long for. And also sets people free in a way. You and them. Truth. Yeah. Truth with kindness. I think that’s, I think that’s going to have to be my choice.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: Five factor of deduction.

Truth with Kindness: The Four Principles

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. The Bhagavad Gita gives four principles for truth with kindness. The first is what you speak should be truthful.

EMMA WATSON: Yes. Yes.

JAY SHETTY: The second is it should be beneficial to all. The third is it shouldn’t agitate the minds of others.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: And the fourth is it should be aligned with eternal wisdom and timeless wisdom.

EMMA WATSON: That’s beautiful and perfect because, yeah. I think there’s truths which are, if they’re not beneficial, that do just agitate. I think that’s…

JAY SHETTY: And it’s not about not saying it, it’s the idea that you’ve thought so much about how you say it.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: It’s not that you’ve sanitized it because that’s the modern day version. The Gita is not telling you to sanitize or be silent.

EMMA WATSON: Right.

JAY SHETTY: It’s telling you to filter your thought.

EMMA WATSON: Right.

JAY SHETTY: To make sure that the way you say it is digestible.

EMMA WATSON: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: For everyone who’s going to hear it. And therefore it actually has transformative power. It’s not that it’s not provocative or that it doesn’t. It’s just that you’re not saying in a way to trigger or get a reaction.

EMMA WATSON: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You’re saying in a way that hits someone like an arrow of truth.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: I have to change.

EMMA WATSON: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: Because that person has been so mindful of how they spoke.

EMMA WATSON: Oh, my God. That’s incredible. That’s everything I’ve just been trying to say about, yeah. If we, God, if everyone was mindful enough about how they spoke their truth that it could just go straight to the heart. Oh.

JAY SHETTY: Rather than hit the ego along the way. That’s why we can’t talk, because everything we say triggers someone’s mind or their ego. Ego. And then everything we say does it back. And so now we’re having a mind and ego debate, which isn’t the one that goes all the way to tap, you know, in your…

EMMA WATSON: We’re so focused on defending whatever the thing is that we feel that we need to defend that we just…

JAY SHETTY: Can’t get the heart.

EMMA WATSON: No, you can’t hit the heart. So good.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

EMMA WATSON: So good.

JAY SHETTY: Emma, thank you for the longest recorded conversation in On Purpose history. We had to change the cards, the cameras. We had to, and we haven’t paused. Just so everyone knows. Just so everyone knows, me and Emma have not moved, so we didn’t take a break. There was no bathroom break. There was no break of whatever kind we sat. There was no coffee break. We have sat in these seats for the entire duration that you watch this show or listen to it. And to Emma, you have the, you know, to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the award for longest ever podcast recording.

EMMA WATSON: I don’t know whether to be mortified or seriously embarrassed or feel like this is some kind of victory of some kind. I guess we sat here for and not moved for more than three hours. It’s amazing. That’s amazing. Well, thank you for, thank you so much. This has been such an amazing conversation.

JAY SHETTY: If you love this episode, you’ll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past. “Everything in nature grows only where it’s vulnerable. So a tree doesn’t go where it’s hard and thick, does it? It goes where it’s soft and green and vulnerable.”

Related Posts

• Transcript: Donald Trump Jr. on Keeping It Real Podcast w/ Jillian Michaels
• Transcript: John Rich on Diddy, Demons, the Antichrist – Tucker Carlson Show
• Erika Kirk’s Interview on The Megyn Kelly Show (Transcript)
• Broadcaster George Galloway on Tucker Carlson Show (Transcript)
• Transcript: Jocko Willink on Shawn Ryan Show (SRS #257)