Joe Rogan Experience: #2438 with John Mellencamp (Transcript)

My knees were all f*ed up. My face was beat up from the…

And I just said, you know, “This drug and alcohol thing is not working for you.” And so I went and got all my hair cut off. Not as short as yours, but not much longer. And that was it.

JOE ROGAN: Well, you found your rock bottom. Yeah, that’s what they say. They say you need to find rock bottom. I would never imagine that you would be the type of guy that would f* with people at a bar and spit on somebody and start a fight. You just don’t seem like that at all.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I grew up in a small town, and there was not much to do in a small town. You know, you would either find a girl or fight. Just…

JOE ROGAN: I figured you for the find the girl type of guy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you know, I was. I did okay with that, but it didn’t always work, so. Yeah, yeah, it was like, don’t forget Joe. It was like 1967, 66. You weren’t even born yet.

JOE ROGAN: I was born in 67.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. So this was like 1967.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So, you know. So from that time on until I turned 21. I was 21 when I quit using drugs and quit smoking, quit drinking.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. Nothing since then?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Not a drop.

JOE ROGAN: That’s impressive.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Not a drop. Well, you know, I think I’ve thought about it, and I think that I didn’t really like it that much, you know, as much as I thought I did.

JOE ROGAN: Well, you certainly didn’t like the results. Right. One bad result will set you straight.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

The Power of Nostalgia in Music

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, you were a big part of my high school experience. It was interesting because your song sort of introduced the idea of nostalgia to me.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know what that meant.

JOE ROGAN: Well, when you were singing songs like “Jack and Diane,” it’s like I was kind of realizing as I was a very young guy listening to those great songs that there’s going to be like, this is a weird time in life. And there’s going to be a time where you’re going to look back on this, and it’s probably one of the best times of your life.

But even though it doesn’t feel like, felt, you know, felt confusing and weird, and I remember thinking at the time, like, my God, like, is this as good as it gets? Some people look back on this weird, confusing time of adolescence as the happiest moments of their life. I’m like, I can’t wait to get the f* out of this time of my life.

And it’s like you were singing from a position of, like an everyman position of, you were singing nostalgia. They were great f*ing songs. That heart, and it was soul to them. But it was like, it was a lot of sadness, you know, a lot of, “Oh, yeah, life goes on long after the thrill of living is gone.” And I was like, “Oh, Jesus Christ, life’s got to go. This is it.”

JOHN MELLENCAMP: This is it. This is it. Well, listen, I struggled with that. Probably like you did or he did. You know, there’s a point in a man’s life where he feels like there’s got to be more to life than this.

I mean, I had huge hit records and, you know, very, very, very, very, very lucky. Very lucky. You know, everything was, you know, just, just lucky. And I would go, go home and I would think, “I’m not happy. There’s got to be more to life than this.”

And then guess what happened? I got a little bit older and I found out there’s not. And I’m good at it. I’m good at it. So, you know, we’re only on this earth for a few f*ing minutes. Quit feeling sorry for yourself and quit being confused and accept your responsibilities and try to, you know, maintain some humility, which was a million miles away from me spitting on people in a bar.

Fame, MTV, and Finding Contentment

JOE ROGAN: What didn’t you enjoy about being this enormous rock star in the early days of MTV? I mean, you were a rock star when it became a totally different thing because it was like this visual thing that was in everyone’s household now. It wasn’t as simple as, no, you were on the Tonight Show and you would sing this music musical segment, and people would have to go see you live, to go see you perform.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And all you got to see guys in rock bands were their album covers. You know, you would go to a record store and file through the records, and if you liked the way a band looked, you’d buy the record, at least. I would.

JOE ROGAN: I would, too. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And so I forgot the question.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I was just saying, like, what was it? What was not good about that? I mean, what was that experience like being this enormous rock star that left you feeling like you wanted more, that you weren’t happy?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I think that for me, I think when that happens, it’s the age you’re at. And I think it’s a chemical imbalance in our brain. And as we grow older, it kind of finds its way.

And like I said, I just woke up one day and just went, “Hey, this is all there is. Accept it and try to show some humility and try to be good at it.” And I never thought about it again.

JOE ROGAN: That’s interesting. Well, you’re a snap out of it type of guy, right? You snapped out of drugs and alcohol. You snapped out of feeling sorry for yourself.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s a good trait to have.

The Luckiest Man Alive: Surviving Spina Bifida

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I’m very lucky that, listen, Joe, you’re looking at the luckiest fing guy you’ve ever interviewed. I don’t give a s who you’ve interviewed. I’m the luckiest guy you know. I was born with spina bifida. Do you know what that is?

JOE ROGAN: I don’t.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s where you have a hole in your spine and the fluid and all of your nerve endings, like, on me.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow. Oh, that’s crazy. Yeah, that scar is huge.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s 1951.

JOE ROGAN: In 1951, you got that operation?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I was born with it. You’re born with spina bifida.

JOE ROGAN: So what did they do to, what, what was that operation exactly?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, they had to, well, here’s the story. I was, my parents were only 20 years older than me, so I was born deformed, and my parents didn’t know what the f* to do. You know, “What are we going to do with this kid?”

So they just went like that to my grandmother. “Here, you take him.” And so I was in the hospital, and there were four other kids. And there was a young doctor named Heinberger who was just a young neurosurgeon. Don’t forget, neurosurgery in 1951 was in its infancy. So he just said, “Well, we’ve got to try to do something with these kids.”

And so he operated on all of us. I was the only one that lived.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, boy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know, the fact that, and he charged my parents a dollar for the operation. You know, because it was an experiment. I was like a guinea pig. And these other poor kids who had the same thing I did, they all died within, you know, six months.

I remember seeing one girl that made it till she was 14, and she was in a wheelchair. I would see her at basketball games, and my parents would go, “That’s the other little girl that had the same operation you did.” And then she died.

So my whole life has been full of luck. I mean, I’m not supposed to be here.

JOE ROGAN: What did they do during the operation? What is the procedure?

Early Health Struggles and Spina Bifida

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, they have to cut your head off, for starters. You know, they had to cut my head and lay it open to get to my spine. And then they would push each individual nerve ending back down into my spine, drain the fluid off, sew it back up, and make sure that everything was working.

And they told my parents, you know, look, here he is. He’s probably going to die, get encephalitis, and his head’s going to fill up with water. We don’t anticipate him living much more than six or seven months.

And I was, I think I was in fifth grade. I didn’t even know I’d had the operation. And some kid in my class said, “Hey, Mellencamp, what’s that big scar on the back of your neck?” Don’t forget, now we’re talking, you know, 1957, 1958, 1960 maybe. I didn’t even know there was a scar back there, you know, wow. Like, I was going and my parents never told me.

So I came home and I asked my old man, I said, “Dad, what’s with the scar in the back of my neck?” And he goes, “Oh, don’t worry about it. You had an operation when you were born.” So I did it. I played football, I ran track, I fought. You know, I did everything that every other kid did without a thought of that. Not until I got older and I started having panic disorder that I thought, I thought maybe the panic disorder was from that operation.

JOE ROGAN: How old when you started having panic disorder?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I was just out of college. I couldn’t leave the house. I became what they call, what’s that called? Agoraphobia.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. So I had agoraphobia for about a year and a half, and then I got a record deal and I had to leave the house. I mean, I was married in high school. I got married in high school, and the girl I was married to was five years older than me, you know?

JOE ROGAN: How old were you?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 18.

JOE ROGAN: 18?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You had a kid, right? You had a kid real young.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, she’s 50 something now.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I have three girls and two boys.

JOE ROGAN: Weren’t you a grandfather when you were in your 30s?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Maybe.

JOE ROGAN: I think you were right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Because that oldest daughter of mine got married when she was, like, 19.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Not much to do in a small town, man. Yeah, not much to do. So that’s the spina bifida.

Panic Attacks on Stage

JOE ROGAN: But it never bothered you again other than the panic. Were you performing when you were having the panic stuff?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, man, I have been on stage in front of, like, 20,000 people and had a panic attack.

JOE ROGAN: Oy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. It’s like, have you ever had one?

JOE ROGAN: No. You’re lucky because you feel like, I can’t breathe. My chest hurts.

JOE ROGAN: And I’ve seen it. I’ve seen people have them. It’s horrific. You can’t do anything for them. You’re like, are you okay? You think they’re having a heart attack? You think they’re dying?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Well, I’ve been on stage and I remember having to plant my feet and just power through, you know, in front of 20,000 people, and it was, it was awful.

JOE ROGAN: Did it pass while you were on stage?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know if it did. I just remember it happening numerous times. And then guess what happened? I had a f*ing real heart attack on stage at Jones Beach, like, 30 years later.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, Jesus.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I know.

Heart Attack and Time with Family

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But you know what that heart attack led to? I was, I just married Elaine Irwin and we had two little boys. And I got to stay home because I said, f* that. I’m going to die. I didn’t know about heart disease. I’m going to die. So I want to spend the last couple years of my life with my boys, who were little teeny guys, which I want to tell you a story about them and you.

And so I got to actually kind of not be in the music business, which pleased me.

JOE ROGAN: How old were you when you had your heart attack?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 42.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, geez.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And so I got to stay home. I stayed home for three and a half years. Elaine didn’t model. And we just, you know, we had TV shows we watched, which is unheard of in my life. You know, like, “Hey, it’s Thursday night. Let’s watch this,” you know, which is where you come in.

So the boys were little, and I loved your show. They loved your f*ing show. And I was kind of like, I don’t know if the kids should be watching this, you know?

JOE ROGAN: You talking about Fear Factor?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t know what the kids should be watching. So I made a deal with them, “All right, you guys, you can watch this show, but you have to watch 60 Minutes too.” So if you’re going to watch this, then you got to watch 60 Minutes.

And they obliged, which surprised the hell out of me. But it was like, “Dad, 60 Minutes on. Dad, Fear Factor’s on.” I know. So we would watch it together. I mean, how lucky is that?

JOE ROGAN: Well, it sounds like it was a blessing in disguise.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, well, that’s true.

JOE ROGAN: It gave you a pause.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know what luck is?

JOE ROGAN: What?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Thinking you’re lucky.

JOE ROGAN: Mmm.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Thinking you’re lucky. What you think about yourself all comes true. I wrote it in a song once. “What you think about yourself will come true.” So if you call yourself a dumbass, guess what? You do it enough and you start, your brain starts believing it.

Cholesterol and Heart Disease

JOE ROGAN: What caused your heart attack at such a young age?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Me being stupid. I would go in and to get a physical and they’d go, “John, your cholesterol is off the charts. It’s at 400.” And I would go, “Am I all right now?” And they’d go, “Well, yeah, you’re all right now.”

JOE ROGAN: Good.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Because I didn’t want to get on medicine, you know, and statin drugs had just become, just were invented, you know, at that time, people started using statins and I didn’t want to take them. I didn’t know what they were. But I know all about heart disease now.

JOE ROGAN: Did you have plaque? Did you have arterial plaque?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it runs in my family. I have a sister that has, or she used to. I don’t think she does anymore. But her cholesterol was a 500. Imagine that’s like, it’s crazy.

JOE ROGAN: Cholesterol is a very controversial subject now because people are starting to try to sort out what is the actual cause of heart disease. And there’s a lot of people that don’t believe it is cholesterol. They think it’s arterial plaque. And what is that stuff called? Nattokinase. I don’t know how to pronounce it, but there’s a supplement, like an over the counter supplement that’s supposed to be able to eliminate arterial plaque in a very profound way that they’re just starting to realize.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know, but clogging of it. Listen, I was in New York once with a girl, and I went to the doctor with her. She’s an actress, and she was getting a physical and she wanted me to go, so I went with her. And she went to the best doctor in New York City. And I found myself alone with that doctor.

And I said, “So the doctor in Bloomington just put me on Metformin. What’s the side effects for Metformin?” And this guy Joe is the guy. He went, “Longevity.” And he said, “If it was up to me, I’d put the entire United States on Metformin and a statin.” Because the f*ing food we eat is terrible. Yeah, it’s processed. It’s this and that, you know, and he just said, you know, the human body was not meant to eat this crap.

JOE ROGAN: That’s a fact.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. I think the solution is probably eating food that you’re meant to eat. But Metformin is one of those drugs that longevity doctors recommend. I’ve never been on it, but I know quite a few people that have. I think, isn’t it a diabetes drug? Initially, yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: My mom died of diabetes, so I was always borderline, and I’m still borderline. And this was…

JOE ROGAN: She get type one or type two?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, she started out with two, and then she paid no attention to it. Wouldn’t take her medicine. We’d drive by Krispy Kreme and she’d go, “Don’t kill your dad. Okay.” And she’d get a half a dozen, you know, Krispy Kremes and eat them. And it’s just like…

The Problem with American Food

JOE ROGAN: That’s where it’s at. It’s the food. It’s a horrible thing that we’ve done to this country. You know, there’s, I mean, this is the most controversial thing about RFK Jr. I guess. Or one of the most controversial things is the elimination of all the stuff that’s already eliminated in a lot of European countries.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I had a friend come here from Europe who had not ever been to the United States and got sick just from eating.

JOE ROGAN: Just eating our food?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Crazy.

JOE ROGAN: Just our bread. What is that? Supplement. How do I say it? Can you find out what it’s supposed to do? Because there’s a recent study. There it is. Okay, so nattok. Yeah, that’s it. Nattokinase supplementation can significantly reduce the size of existing arterial plaques and slow the progression of arteriosclerosis. I never say that word. Atherosclerosis, no atherosclerosis, whatever.

Particularly at higher doses. Nattokinase and arterial plaque reduction. Multiple clinical trials provide evidence that nattokinase, an enzyme derived from fermented Japanese food, natto has a positive effect on atherosclerosis, hardening and narrowing of the arteries due to plaque buildup. Yeah, so folks go take that stuff. High dose supplement shrinks arterial plaque by 36%. Very interesting stuff.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And it’s a very common supplement. It’s an easy to get supplement and you know, comes from fermented food.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you know, if you, I’ve watched a lot of things about the food that we eat and…

JOE ROGAN: Terrible, terrible. Well, a bunch of monsters decided to make more money. And the way they make more money is throw a bunch of preservatives and bullshit and stuff in the food. Sort of keeps their shelf life as long as possible.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, you’ve heard those stories about taking a hamburger that you would buy at a very popular store and just putting it in a box and leaving it for five years. And five years later it’s…

JOE ROGAN: Oh yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I, my, some of my grandkids were at my house in on Daufuskie and they had an ice cream sandwich and they only had half of it and it sat there for three hours and did not melt.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I’ve seen those. Yeah. That’s not ice cream.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s not ice cream.

The Dangers of Processed Food

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know what the f* is in there, but it’s not regular ice cream. The Burger King or the McDonald’s hamburger thing is nuts because what is the longest that guy… There’s one guy that’s had one on a shelf at his house for God, I want to say it’s close to 20 years or something crazy like that. It’s just sitting there. And you would think that he got it five hours ago.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And we’re supposed to be eating that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And for a lot of people, that’s a big portion of their diet is fast food, which is just crazy. You’re just sucking down all these chemicals and preservatives because if something cannot rot, can sit there and not rot. It’s a quarter pounder that’s 30 years old. Wow. That is insane. Yeah, that’s insane.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s craziness.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. Yeah.

Politics and Trust

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Our food source. And I don’t know about RFK Jr. You know, I don’t follow what he says or listen. I try not to listen to much politics.

JOE ROGAN: Good for you. That’s another good way to not have a heart attack.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you know why? Because it’s all, you know, I was a hippie and I grew up thinking, you know, that anybody over 30 was the enemy.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And, you know, it’s kind of like, I remember when Kennedy was shot, I asked my dad, I go, do… You know, I was like a kid, I go, do you really think one guy did it? And he just looked at me and went, “What do you think?” And that was the whole… His whole answer.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. Well, he knew it back then. That’s interesting, because it took a lot. It took until Dick Gregory brought the Zapruder film on the Geraldo Rivera show, which was… I think it was 12 years after Kennedy’s assassination that people realized that he probably had gotten shot from the front.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Because his head went back into the left. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And I’ve seen that. And I remember my dad was a young Democrat, you know, and so he was involved a lot with the Democratic Party back then. And I’d ask him questions and he never would really give me answers. He would just give me looks. And he knew the look. It was just like, “What do you think, John? You really think somebody did that?” You know, figure it out for yourself.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, not much has changed.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And that’s why I don’t watch… I don’t… You know, I used to be very politically minded and cared about what politicians said. I don’t give a f* what they say. I don’t trust any of them. I don’t like any of them. Not that I don’t like them. It’s just that I don’t… You know, it’s just hard to believe anything that anybody says because everybody’s spinning everything in such a way that it’s just like, for their purposes, you know?

Political Polarization

JOE ROGAN: So, you know, and unfortunately, we’re more aware of it now than ever before. There’s less trust in politics now than there’s ever been. And then there’s more people talking about politics than there’s ever been. There’s more polarization.

I mean, I don’t know what it was like when you were a kid, but when I was a kid, there wasn’t this polarization between people that were conservative and people that were liberal. Like, you could hang out and talk to each other. They didn’t hate each other. They just thought the other person was a fool for having a different opinion than them. But there wasn’t hate like there is today.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, here’s the way you got to look at it. This is that when you used to vote, you would go inside a place and they would shut the curtains. And you would vote, and that was your f*ing business.

JOE ROGAN: Yep.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It’s nobody else’s business. So, like, you know, it’s like, you know, I’m for anybody that’s doing good. If you’re doing good and you’re not hurting somebody, go, man. But, you know, I’m not for cheating. And, you know, how about a little morality and…

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Integrity and what you’re saying and doing.

JOE ROGAN: That would be nice. It would be nice.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, it’s never been that way.

JOE ROGAN: No, never.

The Sixties and Social Change

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It’s never… It’s never been that way. I mean, in the sixties when I was a hippie, I mean, people think that this is, like, really bad. No, it was really bad when f*ing Russia had missiles in Cuba. And it was really bad when kids with long hair were getting shot at Kent State.

I mean, it was really the separation of adults and kids. You know, there was a change that was happening. And of course the change happened. And all my generation did was get to wear blue jeans to work. That’s about all we accomplished.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the change was because it was the first generation that realized that the war that they were being sold was bullshit.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You know, the people that were involved in World War I and World War II, they thought they were stopping the world from an evil dictator taking over and just ruining the world. That’s what we… In World War II, the United States was fighting Hitler. You can’t get a more evil person that’s leading an army that you want to fight against than that guy. Right.

So everybody felt like that was a just war. Came back from that war victorious. America had national pride. We did it. We’re the good guys. And then all of a sudden, we’re in Vietnam. Like, what the f* are we doing in Vietnam? Didn’t make any sense.

The Civil War: A Different Perspective

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Back up, Joe. What do you think the Civil War was fought about?

JOE ROGAN: The Civil War? Yeah. Well, slavery was a big one.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, no. Ports.

JOE ROGAN: Ports.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: They fought… It was fought over ports. The port in Savannah, Georgia was the biggest port in America. And the ports in Boston, New York were struggling. And the north said, “Hey, why don’t you guys send some of that our way? You guys got more than you can handle.”

And they said, “F you. No, no, we’re not sending you any of our stuff.” And they just kind of went, “Well, then, f you. We’re going to come down and take it.” But how are we going to get the American people to get behind that? Slaves will say it’s to free the slaves.

JOE ROGAN: Really?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. I have a house in the South and that’s what it was about. It was about the ports. Slavery was just an excuse because nobody cared about black people, north or South.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. So you think that if they had just spread the wealth a little bit, that that would not have happened and slavery would have still continued? Don’t you think that… I mean, there was already a distaste of slavery because it wasn’t ubiquitous in the North. But it was in the North.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. I mean, Lincoln had slaves.

JOE ROGAN: Really? He had slaves when he was fighting in the war. Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, a lot of people in the north, you know, they weren’t at… They hadn’t spun it to be so cruel as the south was, apparently.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there was more in the south, right, because of plantations and, you know, so here it is. Abraham Lincoln never personally owned slaves. This is according to Perplexity, which is our AI sponsor, which is always very accurate, either before or during his presidency.

According to mainstream historical scholarship, claims that he had slaves through inheritance or marriage come from fringe or highly disputed sources and are not accepted by most professional historians.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s me.

JOE ROGAN: Blake was born in Kentucky, raised in Indiana and Illinois, all as a non-slave owner, working as a laborer, a lawyer, and a politician. He was a really good wrestler, too. Being related to slaveholders did not legally make those enslaved people his property. And the best documented homes Lincoln himself maintained in Illinois and Washington employed free servants, not slaves. Okay, where are the idea…

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Hold on for a second. Let me stop for a second. You can call it what you want. Free servants, call it what you want.

JOE ROGAN: Well, they were free and they were getting paid is like means. Like you said you had a housekeeper.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was still a minstrel show, no matter how you got it.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. Some modern writers and websites argue Lincoln inherited or ordered… This is where the idea Lincoln had slaves came from. Websites argued Lincoln inherited or ordered the sale of slaves via the Todd estate. But these claims hinge on a small number of contested documents and are rejected by most specialists in Lincoln studies.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: There you go.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s interesting that the…

JOHN MELLENCAMP: The fact that we’re even talking about it.

How Recent History Really Is

JOE ROGAN: What’s kind of crazy how recent it was. That’s what’s really crazy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, yeah. When that long ago?

JOE ROGAN: Two people ago. You know, people lived to be a hundred.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: 1865 is roughly two people ago.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s f*ing crazy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I know. I bet you when you were in school you thought World War II was ancient history.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, yeah. Which is nuts because I was in high school in the 1980s, right. So World War II ended in 1945, which is nuts.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Like, yeah, I thought it was ancient history. I remember sitting in street class in eighth grade going, “What do I need to know this s* for?” You know? And I was born in 1951, so it was only like three or four years and the war had just ended.

JOE ROGAN: That’s nuts.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But to me, it was ancient history.

JOE ROGAN: Isn’t that crazy? Because essentially what we’re talking about now is like the 1980s. Yeah, to us, the 1980s. Like, to kids today, they must be like, “Oh, my God, fing dinosaur days. No Internet. Fing big old tube TVs.” It was a giant box. A big one was 14 inches.

Memories of Old Technology

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember being at home once and I told my dad, I said, “Hey, dad, the people down the street have got like a changer and it’s got a cord on it.” And he goes, “I got a changer too. Change it to channel four.” I was the changer.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. I remember we used to have pliers because the thing got stripped so you had to change the channel with the plier. You didn’t know what channel it was until like, “Oh, it’s CBS.” All right, so we’re on five. Go like this, then you’re on ABC. Go like that, you’re on NBC.

Yeah. I remember the day cable came out. I was like, “This is f*ing bananas. Look at all these channels.”

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I remember seeing a Home Box Office. Oh, yeah. It was like, “What on earth?” I even remember what movie it was. It was some… The Miracle Man or something. I thought, “What is it? It’s past 11 o’clock and this movie’s just starting. Are you kidding?”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Do you remember in the old days when the TV would sign off and the American flag would wave and it would just play music and then it would just go…

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, the Indian would always show up. The American Indian would always show up. And it had like this…

JOE ROGAN: Yep. And then it would go to nothing. They would stop broadcasting at night.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, 11.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, 11. Those were wild times. Cable changed everything. Home Box Office changed everything. Because when HBO came around, all of a sudden you got to see stand-up comedy uncensored. I remember the first time I watched Sam Kinison on HBO. I was like, “This is f*ing crazy.”

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Like I’d never seen anything like that before. Like wild, raw comedy.

Sam Kinison

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Did you ever know Sam Kinison?

JOE ROGAN: No, I never met him.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I did.

JOE ROGAN: What was he like?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Wild.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I would imagine he was very unpredictable. Very. You know, he was Sam Kinison.

JOE ROGAN: You know his story, how he became that way?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No.

Growing Up in the 80s: Freedom and Responsibility

JOE ROGAN: Got hit by a truck when he was a little kid. He was real normal, like a normal kid. His brother Bill wrote about it. His brother Bill wrote a great book called “My Brother Sam.” And he said that Sam was just a normal kid. Got hit by a truck, got really f*ed up. Bad brain injury. And then from then on, wild and reckless. Just like impossible to control. Just a maniac you could imagine.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I mean, you know, that’s… I don’t know about you, but if you grew up in the 80s, you know, our parents used to just tell us, go outside.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Go outside and we’ll see you at dark. And, you know, I could go. I was… I don’t know, 10, nine, riding my bike all over Seymour, which is where I grew up. And just nobody kept an eye on us. Nobody. You know.

JOE ROGAN: And nobody had any idea of knowing where you are either. It was just your responsibility to come home. There was no way to find you.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was funny they had to remind our parents that you have kids. There was a thing that said, “It’s 10 o’clock. Do you know where your children are?”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Because a lot of people didn’t.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: They didn’t.

JOE ROGAN: And people would yell. They would open up the window and yell their kid’s name.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Billy!

JOE ROGAN: You just hear it in the neighborhood. Someone, like, rolling down their window, rolling up their window and just screaming out the kid’s name to tell him to come home. Hoping the kid was in earshot.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I remember somebody in my neighborhood I would hear every night at dark. “Henry Earl!” And I’d hear it and go, I better go home. If it’s time for Henry Earl to go home, I better get home.

The MTV Era and Early Musical Beginnings

JOE ROGAN: What was it like when MTV rolled around?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I didn’t… I mean, I liked it.

JOE ROGAN: And how long had you been performing by then?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, I was in my first band when I was 11.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know, a little garage band with a bunch of kids playing along with records. And then I was in a band called the Great Soul. I think about this, Joe. I was 14 years old, playing in bars.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And my parents were cool with it. It’s like, where’s John? He’s playing tonight. Playing what? He’s in the Great Soul. Oh. And it was me and this black kid named Fred Booker. And we shared the vocals. And we would do… you know, we would do songs like “Pull Strings” and “I’ll Kiss Your Lips, I’m Your Puppet.” And we had, you know, neighbor jackets on and I was cute back then.

And so, you know, it was great for me. I would have done it for free because I was 14 years old making out with 18, 19 year old girls.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I know, it’s great. Are you kidding me? And then we played at every fraternity, every sorority, and I came home with maybe, you know, over the weekend, I might make 60 bucks. I was the best dressed kid in school.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That Mellencamp kid is just a dressed up hood. That’s all he is.

Career Aspirations: Music, Football, and Boxing

JOE ROGAN: So did you know back then that you were going to be a professional musician or were you doing it for fun? Did you think it was going to be a career?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I thought, here’s what I thought. I’m either going to be a professional football player, a professional boxer, or singer. That was my choices.

JOE ROGAN: You boxed?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. I’ll whip your ass right now at 74.

JOE ROGAN: Is that why you were getting in so many fights?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I liked it.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I liked it. I liked the contact. Didn’t like getting whipped every goddamn night. But, you know, it happened.

JOE ROGAN: Did you have any professional boxing matches?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, but my son, I’m going to brag on. My son was national Golden Gloves champ twice.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And then he played football for Duke and he was… You don’t mess with Hud. Don’t want to mess with Hud. He’s 31 now.

The Mason Brothers and the Riverboat Disaster

JOE ROGAN: When did the music thing really start taking off for you?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I went to college and I got a degree in broadcasting technology, which at that time was pretty… And they would have dances at college and bands playing, and I would sit there in the audience and go, I can do this better than that. I know I can.

And so as soon as I got out of college, I got into a band called the Mason Brothers. I have so many funny stories. Like I said, I’m so lucky. I got into a band called the Mason Brothers and we played every weekend. And I was a barroom singer. You know, I never wrote any songs or anything like that.

You want to hear a funny story about the Mason Brothers? How the Mason Brothers ended up?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, this is good.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: The guy that ran the band, I was just a singer. And the guy that ran the band was a guy named Dave. And Dave talked to the booker and we had a gig on a riverboat up and down the Ohio River. And it was a fraternity show. And we had an old Plymouth and a U-Haul on the back.

And we get there, and the guys in the fraternity, Joe, are so f*ing mad at us. Dave failed to realize that there was a time change between Seymour and Cincinnati, which is on the Ohio River. So they get all these fraternity guys are going, where the hell have you guys been? You’re an hour late.

So it really pissed me off. I go, Dave, goddamn it, if you’re going to run the band, you got to, like, keep track of this s*. He said, oh, don’t worry about it. And as time went on and… So as… And you had to do four sets back then, you know, four 45 minute sets, which was plenty of time for Dave to get drunk and he would drink and he was the bass player and the fraternity guys already hated us, you know, because we weren’t really any good.

Anyway, so Dave’s playing and he’s going along really good, and he’s putting on a show. And he leaned back and man overboard, he f*ing fell off the ship. And they had to stop and fish him.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, my God.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So I got so f*ing mad at him that he said… I said, Dave, I’m going to quit. This is it for me. I’m done with this crap. And then Dave said, no, John, give us one more chance. And then the drummer quit because he went to medical school. And then the guitar player was still in high school.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And he was my mom and dad’s paper boy. And so Dave said, John, let me put the band back together. I’ll get some new guys. And I’d call him up and I’d go, Dave, how’s the band going? And he’d go, oh, it’s going great, man. It’s going really great. I said, good. I said, who are these new guys? He goes, you’ll see when you get there. Don’t worry about it. I got it covered.

I said, oh, you mean like you did with the time change? And he goes, no, no, no, these guys are good. So I show up for this gig, I haven’t even rehearsed with these guys, not even rehearsed with them. But it was the same s*, you know, because we were just a cover band and I was just a barroom singer.

So, you know, if you want to see “Taking Care of Business,” I’m your guy, you know, and “Take a Care of Business,” you know, who can’t do that? So anyway, I show up. Dave has recruited two sophomores in high school who couldn’t play their instruments at all. The drummer was like, it’s like, boom, boom, crack, ahole. Boom, boom, crack. That’s all you got to do. And he was the whole f*ing time.

And so the show was about half over. I just said… I looked at Dave and I go, you’re the lead singer. And I just left because it was just too embarrassing.

Moving to New York

And then I got… I went to New York and I was afraid, Joe. I was afraid. I mean, I’m from a town of 18,000 people, and I’d been to Chicago once, never been on an airplane. And so I flew to New York because I came into some money. That’s another funny story. I came into some money and I went there and I was afraid to come out of my hotel room for the first two days because New York in the early 70s was broke and there were prostitutes and pimps and everything everywhere, you know, and homeless people.

Which reminds me, you guys got a lot of homeless guys here?

JOE ROGAN: There’s a few. It’s not as bad as LA.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, that isn’t… You can say that about anything, Joe.

JOE ROGAN: That’s true. Yeah. It’s a lot better than it was during the pandemic. During the pandemic, they allowed them to do the camping on the street things. So you’d go down like Cesar Chavez and you’d see like 15, 20 tents where people were just hanging out and people were trying to jog and ride their bikes past them. It was pretty bad, but former mayor cleaned it up. And they have pretty good programs here to get people into housing.

Graffiti and Urban Decay

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Everybody here. Everybody here must love… I’m not putting Austin down. I’m just… I had, you know, I was… I played here about three years ago. But everybody must love graffiti here. And that’s the thing about graffiti. I don’t mind if you want to destroy somebody else’s property, but at least do something original because it all looks the same, you know, it’s big letters and outlined in… It’s done in black and outlined in yellow.

And it’s the same fing s you see in New York or Los Angeles. The same, right? If you’re going to be an artist, be an artist.

JOE ROGAN: Well, a lot of these guys are just tagging. They’re just like sister gang affiliation or whatever it is, I guess.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know. Yeah, but it wasn’t that way the first time I came to Austin.

JOE ROGAN: No, it’s… Well, I think all cities have deteriorated, but I think Austin’s deteriorated quite a bit less. We found out recently that Skid Row in LA is 50 blocks. 50 right now. Right now, 50 blocks of homeless people just living on the streets and, like, almost impassable.

Like, if you’ve ever been down Skid Row, it’s f*ing… I went there once accidentally. And this was in the 2000s. We were filming Fear Factor downtown in LA, and I took a wrong turn and wound up in Skid Row. And I was like, I couldn’t believe it was real. It was like a zombie movie. And that’s… I mean.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So you decided on Fear Factor. You go stay in here for three days and you win.

JOE ROGAN: Three days and do no coke. Yeah. You can do three days with no meth and you win.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. It was sobering. And then we looked up the history of Skid Row and the reason why it’s like that is they would take people out of Hollywood and Beverly Hills and homeless people then, and they would put them in Skid Row and force them to stay there. And they sort of built it as a place where they could deposit vagrants and homeless people.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, there is a law in this country called Bakeford City.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Not very enforced.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, it would be. Let me tell you something. If you grew up in Seymour, Indiana, it was enforceable, right? Because if you stand uptown too long, which is all kids did back then, the cops come up and go, hey, you’ve been here for three hours. We’ve been timing you.

The Broken Windows Theory and Downtown LA

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, move on. You want to keep a nice, clean town. That’s how you do it. But if you let it go long enough, it will be like skid row. I mean, I think that what we’re saying, like the documentary, what was the hotel again? That one. The Hotel Cecil.

The documentary was about the Hotel Cecil, which was a beautiful hotel in downtown LA that’s now disaster area, but it’s in that whole area. And they just couldn’t figure out a way to deal with the homeless problem, but they didn’t want it messing up the beauty and glamour of Hollywood. So every time they would find homeless people, they would just ship them to downtown.

Downtown LA is really the only downtown of any major city that I’ve ever been to where nobody wants to go. Downtown New York is downtown. Like, holy s*, we’re downtown. Look at all the restaurants, look at all the shops.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, but it wasn’t that way in the 70s, right? I mean, the first time I went there, it was just like you went to Times Square. It was frightening.

JOE ROGAN: The first time I went to New York was to fight. I was fighting in a martial arts tournament in 1980. It had to be, I guess it was 85 or 86, and it was bad. We went through Times Square. I was like, oh, my God. I couldn’t believe people lived like this.

I remember the first time driving through it, I couldn’t believe how big it was. I was like, this is crazy. It was so because Boston, where I was from, was the big city. I thought it was nothing compared to New York. I’m like, this is nuts. I couldn’t believe how many streets there were and how many buildings there were and how tall they were.

But the seediness of it was so strange to me. The peep shows and all the weird people. And I was a kid back then. I was probably 18. It was very strange.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was frightening.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Like, I was, I don’t know, I probably got sidetracked. But the first time I went there, I didn’t leave my hotel room. I was at a Holiday Inn on 57th street and I just kind of peeked through the curtains and looked, and I can’t go out there. I mean, I was coming off agoraphobia, and here I’m in New York because I have a meeting with some record company people and they like to demo.

Getting Back to Music After Dave

JOE ROGAN: So let’s go back to that. So you were your f*ed up drunk friend, you quit him. How do you get back onto music after that?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, Dave.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, I got my first record deal. The first guy I called was Dave. No, he was a great bass player. He was a great bass player.

JOE ROGAN: Did he get his together before then?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No.

JOE ROGAN: Nope. Still not.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, no. I got funny stories about Dave and Max’s case.

JOE ROGAN: Is he still around?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, he’s a professor now. He found God and all this stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: He’s a professor. Vincenz University. And he teaches.

JOE ROGAN: He’s a professor. Wow. What does he teach?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Music.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And no, he was really a handsome, really good bass player. Really, really, really, really good. But he just, you know, Dave. And we were 20 years old, 22 years old. What the f* did we know about anything? Nothing. Nothing.

The Slow Climb to Success

JOE ROGAN: So when you left Dave and you left that band, what happened next? What was like the big break for you?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I never really had a big break.

JOE ROGAN: Well, something must have happened.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was a slow climb. It was a very slow climb. Yeah. I got a record deal. And of course, being me at that age, at 22, I went out to California and I met with a guy named Mike Maitland, who hated my new record but said I had great possibilities.

And I just stood up and I said, “You’re an old man. What do you know about rock music?” He must have been 40. And of course, I got dropped immediately. I was on MCA and I got dropped immediately. But there were a couple people at MCA who believed in what I was doing, and so they helped me along.

And then I got introduced to Rod Stewart’s manager and I moved to England for two years, made a record and lived with the whole band on Chelsea in Chelsea. And punk was just starting, just starting. I mean, the Clash and the Sex Pistols, I mean, they were brand new bands.

And there I am with an acoustic guitar going, “I need a lover that won’t.” However, that song became number one in Australia. And so Australia was ahead of us with televising rock bands. And they had a whole bunch of rock shows. And I had the number one record album and single in Australia and couldn’t fill up a bar in Bloomington.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Couldn’t. Nobody’d come to see me. So anyway, I went to Australia and then a girl covered “I Need A Lover” and she had a big hit with it. I mean, mine went to like 30 or something like that, but hers went to like 2 of that song. And that’s how it all started for me. That was the very first thing.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: With some girl covering one of my songs.

Living in England and the National Front

JOE ROGAN: And you were living in England.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I lived in England for two years and they had the National Front there at the time. I don’t know if you know what that is. The National Front was, if you’re not English, get out of our country.

A couple guys in my band got beat up because they heard, some of the National Front guys heard their accent and it wasn’t English, so it was like dangerous to even go to the movies, really. Keep your f*ing mouth shut and your head down.

JOE ROGAN: What year was this?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Around 70s, 77, 76.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, the National Front was, they were like all a bunch of skinhead guys and violent and did not want any foreigners in their country at all. And even Americans. So you had to keep your eye, I learned real quick to keep your head down and your mouth shut.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. And so you got out of there because of that?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, I got out of there because I got mad at the, I know it’s hard to believe that I got mad at somebody, but I got mad at the manager because I never could get the c*sucker on the phone.

And then I came back to the United States and he had a record deal based on the number one record in Australia. And I used to go, “Well, we have a number one record in Australia.” And they would look at me and go, “Not many Australians in the United States, John.”

So, and then it just kind of built. But see what happened? And I don’t mean to sound arrogant, but I didn’t give a f. I got to the point where it was like, I don’t give a f, do what the f* you want. Because I didn’t want to be Johnny Cougar, which is how they made me start.

The Birth of Johnny Cougar

JOE ROGAN: Whose idea was that to turn you into John Cougar?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was Johnny to start off with, Johnny Cougar. Tony Defries managed me. David Bowie, Lou Reed, Mott the Hoople, you remember all these bands?

JOE ROGAN: Oh, Lou Reed, for sure. Yeah. David Bowie, obviously. Rod Stewart, obviously. Same guy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, Rod Stewart was different. Different manager, different man. But he was English too, so it’s hard to argue with someone that’s got that kind of talent, right?

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s hard to argue when you’re 22 years old with the 45 year old man who has had success.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Like I signed away my publishing and stuff. This is an old story, but I mean, an old story from everybody from the Rolling Stones to, you name it, Prince. If you were black, it was like, here’s a new car and a shiny ring and some money.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And so I remember I was getting ready to leave England, and I heard that Daft had good news for me in America. So that’s the reason I went home. And the good news was is that he just got a deal for me on Mercury Records.

And then so I went back to the United States and we started making records and just kept plowing away. And the critics hated me. They f*ing hated me because of Johnny Cougar. And Main Man came up with that name, Johnny Cougar.

And his excuse was his name was David Jones, and I called him David Bowie. And look how well that worked out. And that was, and I’m 22 and I’m going, “But I don’t like this name.” And he’d go, “Well, you don’t have to. You don’t have to participate. You can go back to Indiana if you want.”

It was like, “Well, f* you, then. I will.” And then I walked outside and thought for a minute, thought, hmm, I guess I’m Johnny Cougar.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I hated it. And they compared me to James Dean and Bruce and, so the critics just hated that. It was like, he’s so American. He’s so American. Yeah, I was a f*ing hillbilly.

JOE ROGAN: F*ing critics. They’re always going to be a problem.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. But you know what? I learned stuff from some of the critics that were good.

JOE ROGAN: Like what?

Learning from Critics and the Soundscan Revolution

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, one of my best friends was a guy named Tim White, who was the editor of Rolling Stone and the editor of Billboard magazine, and he died a few years ago. And you want to hear some inside baseball?

JOE ROGAN: Sure.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Tim and I talked every day. And Tim is as different as me as you. Tim wore bow tie, white bucks, blue jeans, suit jacket, every day. And he was the editor of Rolling Stone for a long time, and then he became editor of Billboard.

And he called me up and he said, “I’m going to have to sign a deal with Soundscan.” I said, “So?” I didn’t know what that was. He goes, “John, you don’t understand the ramifications of signing a deal with Soundscan.” I said, “Well, what are they?” He goes, “You’ll be out of business.” I go, “Why do you say that?”

He goes, “Because now the way the Billboard charts work.” Is this getting too inside baseball?

JOE ROGAN: No, not at all. No.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: The way that the charts work is that if you get played in Indianapolis and you get played in New York, it counts as one play. New York counts as one play. Indianapolis counts as one play. A play is a play.

When Soundscan came in, they changed it. So it’s like the number one record of the week. So if you got a play in New York, that was worth five points. If you got a play in Indianapolis, that was worth a half a point.

So what does that mean? That means that people who grew up in St. Louis and where rock took place, all of a sudden, where I got played all the time, the points didn’t amount to s*. But what did? Urban stations. Urban stations played what?

JOE ROGAN: Rap.

The Impact of SoundScan on the Music Industry

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So do you remember when all of a sudden rap music took over? It wasn’t because these guys were so great. I’m not saying they were bad. I’m just saying that it was because of SoundScan. And my friend Tim knew this was going to happen as soon as I signed this deal with SoundScan.

And there was a magazine called Radio and Records at the time who was rivaling Billboard. And if Tim hadn’t bought SoundScan, Radio and Records would have bought them, which would have made them the premier record company because they were the most modern. And so SoundScan changed everything.

So I’m sure that you remember that there was a time when you knew every song that was number one. Then all of a sudden, you woke up one day and you didn’t know what the… How does this song become number one?

But the way that it was before SoundScan, each song had to work its way up the charts. So if you had, like, you know, let’s say 20 plays, I’m just throwing out low numbers, but if you had 20 plays that got added to the 20 plays that you got the next week, so now you have 40 plays, so you might move up from 36 to 31.

But Joe Rogan in Boston was hearing the f*ing songs as they move up. “Oh, I heard this new song.” You talked to your friend and they said, “Yeah, I heard that song.” And then all of a sudden, the song would build and build and build and build and build and build. And Michael Jackson would be number one or whoever.

And once SoundScan took over, if you run a rock band, the record companies said, “Well, f* this. We’re not even going to advertise in Indianapolis anymore. The biggest numbers are R and B stations, and they’re playing rap. And that’s what we’re going to… We’re going to service those people.”

Because back then, you know, there was payola and all that stuff going on, of course. So there was, like, no money coming into Indianapolis all of a sudden, where they used to be, it was all going to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, to all these R and B stations. And then what was that thing called when you could like download records for nothing?

JOE ROGAN: Napster.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, yeah. And then that started and then that really put us out. Put all rock guys out of it. If you check the Billboard charts right now, I bet you you’d be hard pressed to find two rock bands in the top.

JOE ROGAN: Rock bands right now, just in general are almost non existent in terms of new bands. It’s really weird. There used to be so many rock bands. And rock and roll is still a very popular form of music when you listen to the older stuff.

From Cheerleader to Musician

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s why I’ve decided, I don’t mean to plug myself, but they have been asking me because I got tired of going on tour and being a cheerleader, which is what I was. “Let’s do a rounding hit of ‘Small Town.’ I was born,” you know, and everybody’d stand up singing. I was playing to 20,000 people and everybody was drunk. And I was just kind of the cheerleader, you know, the human people.

JOE ROGAN: This was a good time.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Giving them the opportunity. I just thought, you know, I’m here to be a musician. This is not being a musician. This is being a f*ing clown. I don’t want to be a clown. So I started playing in theaters, which pissed everybody off. I said, and you know when you come to one of my shows, and this has been for the last 20 years I’ve been doing this. You come to one of my shows in a theater, it says, please recognize back.

JOE ROGAN: Then pull that sucker up close to your face. The microphone. Oh, otherwise we’re barely hearing. You’re very soft spoken already.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: How’s that?

JOE ROGAN: There we go.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I am. And I am soft spoken.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know why?

JOE ROGAN: Why?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Because I’m deaf.

JOE ROGAN: Are you really? Oh, from all the singing.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: All the music. Oh. Every rock star is deaf.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I’m deaf.

JOE ROGAN: No one knew about hearing protection back then.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, I’m deaf. I can’t.

JOE ROGAN: All my friends in bands and all my friends that are hunters.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Deaf, can’t hear.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Guns and loud music.

Family Life and Fatherhood

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. My kids would love it because they could walk up and say s* behind my back. “I heard that.” I got three girls and two boys and how many kids you got?

JOE ROGAN: Three. Three girl.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Girls are at about 12. You lose them and then about 21 they come back.

JOE ROGAN: I haven’t lost them. Yeah, no, no, I’m real close. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I kind of lost mine. You know, it was like. But now it’s kind of like. But I do have a daughter that’s really sick. Not f*ing fun.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, that sucks. I’m sorry to hear that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: She’s got. She’s got cancer in the brain.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, Jesus.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And she’s suffering right now. But that kid used to call me up and I’d go, “Teddy, you can have a thought without asking me if it’s… You know, figure it out yourself. You don’t have to ask me everything, you know.” But I love having kids.

JOE ROGAN: I do, too. It has made me a much nicer person, that’s for sure.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, me too.

JOE ROGAN: But I’ve stayed close with them, even through the teenage years, luckily. But, you know, I worked hard at it.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I was on tour all the time.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Well, that’s one of the things that I did when we moved to Texas almost six years ago now, is that I decided to be home a lot more. In the beginning, when here I was still touring a lot. I would do weekends, I’d go do shows. But now I hardly ever. Now I have my own comedy club, so I’m in town all the time.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: What do you think is stand up now?

JOE ROGAN: I love it. It’s a great time for stand up.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You think? Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You don’t have to, like, worry about crossing the line.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, you do. Yeah. Yeah, you do. You’ll cross the line, but not with the people that you care about. You know, you cross the line for people that are looking to be offended.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well. Which is a lot of people.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. So they’re going to be mad. Let them be mad.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You just can’t pay attention. That’s the thing. It’s like I tell all comics, like, stay out of the comments, don’t read anything about yourself, and you’ll be all right. The audience is. What matters is the audience laughing.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I’ve never Googled myself.

JOE ROGAN: Good for you.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: In my life.

JOE ROGAN: Good.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I’ve never Googled myself ever, because I don’t give a f*.

The MTV Revolution

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s a good practice to keep. Where were we? So we were talking about how they stuck you with the Johnny Cougar name. You’re in New York City. That’s kind of where we left it off. I was trying to figure out, like, what was the MTV days like? And when did it, like, really start cracking? Pull that microphone close up to you. When did it really start cracking?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Do you know John Sykes?

JOE ROGAN: No.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: He was one of the guys who started MTV.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And I remember calling him up and I didn’t know him. This was like 1981, ’82. And like, I said, you know, he was. It was like all you really saw of guys in rock bands were the album covers, you know, maybe on Midnight Special or something like that, or Don Kirschner’s Rock Concert or something like that.

But then with MTV going all the time, and not very many people made videos. But see, I was making videos because I had a hit in Australia. And like I said, Australia was way ahead of us. So it was the video that I just made in a club in London that was shown that made that record number one in Australia.

And so when MTV started, there wasn’t that many people making videos, but I was. So they had to make content. So they played me all the f*ing time. Just because nobody else had videos yet, right?

JOE ROGAN: People hadn’t caught up yet, right?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And I remember sitting with. I can’t remember the guy, some English guy, and I said, “What is this MTV thing?” He goes, “I don’t know. The record company told me,” I can’t remember the guy’s name. He was really a good songwriter, but you don’t hear of much anymore.

Anyway, I had a conversation. Neither one of us knew what was going on. And then I met John, and I was the first. And John and I got along great. I was the first promotion that MTV did, and we gave away a pink house.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

The Pink House Promotion

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know, and you had to register and do all this stuff. And there’s a funny story that goes with that. So Sykes and somebody else came to Indiana to find a house in Bloomington that they were going to buy. And then they were going to do a show, and I did an ad where I went, “And you can win the house, and we’re going to paint the mother pink,” you know. And that’s what they did. Except the house they bought, Joe was on a chemical dump.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, no.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But I didn’t know it. And they didn’t know because they’re from New York. And so when I found out, I called him up, I said, “Guys, we can’t give away this house. It’s on a f*ing chemical dump.” Because RCA is. Was dumping chemicals out in this field that was right next to the house that we bought, you know, and back then in the. In the early ’80s, there wasn’t much legislation about where you could dump that.

JOE ROGAN: Kind of stuff, right?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So they had to buy another house, which they weren’t happy about. So they had to buy two houses, couldn’t sell the other one, gave it away. And Sykes, to this day, I’ll tease him about it and he’ll go, “Oh, we took that off the books years ago.”

JOE ROGAN: Jeez.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But it went from walking down the street to nobody know who the f* you are to walking down the street. And everybody knew who you were. Everybody. I mean, it got the. At the height of MTV, I couldn’t go anyplace.

JOE ROGAN: Did you get the agoraphobia before that?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, boy. So that probably just made it way worse, right?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, actually, again, Joe, lucky. It helped me get over. Helped me. And, you know, like, I believe that all growth takes place in the chemicals inside our body. So I was growing still because I was. I grew up in public.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know, I grew. I mean, I literally grew up. When I got my first record deal, Joe, I had never written a song.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

Learning to Write Songs

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Never written a song. They. They. They asked me, “Well, play some of the songs you’ve written.” It’s like, “I don’t write no songs. I’m a. I’m a bar room singer. I sing other people’s songs.” But he won a song. What do you want me to write for Dillman’s? Writing great songs? Shrinks.

JOE ROGAN: You hadn’t written anything?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Nothing.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. So when did you start writing? After you got a record deal?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Wow.

JOE ROGAN: But it turns out you’re a great writer.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s crazy. And I have dyslexia, which means I can’t read. You should see my songwriting books. It’s absolutely terrible. It looks like, you know, I have to have somebody now. After I write a song, I have to give it to somebody right away and let them copy it, and I’ll read it to them so that we can read with the f*ing, you know, what I wrote.

Because songwriting is not what people think it is. But anyway, back to MTV. It just blew up. And you couldn’t go anywhere. Anywhere. I couldn’t. I. I would walk down the street, and all I did was sign autographs and shake hands, and I didn’t like it at all.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’d be very weird.

The Birth of a Rock Legend

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. I mean, it was like, you know, you’ve been in rock bands since you were 13. Nobody gave a s*. And then all of a sudden, they did. And, you know, it was the baby boomers coming of age. And, you know, I was very fortunate but unappreciative.

JOE ROGAN: So when you first started writing songs, what was your process when you knew how to write songs? How did you…

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I figured out because don’t forget, the critics hated me already. Yeah. Oh, yeah. They hated Johnny Cougar. F*ing hated him. And I didn’t like him much either because, you know, we weren’t any good. You know, we just weren’t. We did not write songs we didn’t know how to do anything.

So I figured, how do you reach a lot of people? By being on the radio. So keep it simple, stupid. So I would write, like, I had a song called “Hurt So Good.” Do you remember that song?

JOE ROGAN: Sure, yeah.

Creating “Hurt So Good” and the Miami Sessions

JOHN MELLENCAMP: “Hurt So Good.” I wrote that in the shower, and I came out real quick and I wrote it down, and then I had somebody write it down, and I remembered the melody and I sang it to a tape machine. And I got so many funny stories.

I was down in Criteria, which was in Florida, in Miami. You know, it was the early 80s. And so we had this… And Criteria had five or six studios. And, you know, there were, like, I don’t know, all kind of bands. The Bee Gees were over here, and this band was over here.

And we had the studio blocked out, but we wouldn’t show up. We had other things to do. There was a place called Scaramouche that had the prettiest girls you ever saw in your life. So it was like we did not have time to go to the studio because we had been up till daybreak at Scaramouche, you know.

And so I was spending a lot of f*ing money by now. And it was like, maybe, you know, at the time, a half a million dollars. And I had three songs done. Whoa, that’s exactly right. Whoa. And I’d had a couple hits. I had “I’d Love Her Ain’t Even Done with the Nine.” And this time, I think. And so those songs were, like, got into the top 20.

Anyway, the record company came down and said, “John Camp, what the f? You know, you’re spending all this money, and if you don’t get on with it, we’re going to drop you from the label.” And I went, “You can’t drop me from the fing label. Are you kidding me? I’m just starting.”

“Well, we want to come down and hear what you’ve done.” I said, “Well, come on down.” I played him three songs. The three I had done in six weeks. Anyway, I played him the three songs. They hated them.

JOE ROGAN: Which songs were they?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: “Jack and Diane.” Oh, God, “Hurt So Good” and “Hand To Hold On To.”

JOE ROGAN: Oh, my God.

The Record Company Hated the Hits

JOHN MELLENCAMP: They hated those. Oh, they hated them. They said, “Oh, wow.” They said, “John, this is… They’re too rough. They’re too raw. And what is this sound in ‘Jack and Diane’? It’s not even… What is that sound?”

Well, the sound was… I would walk by the BG studio and they had just invented drum machines, and the Bee Gees were using it to keep time because, you know, most drummers, they speed up. You know, you start the song at this tempo, and all of a sudden they’re like… By the end of the song, it’s like, “I can’t keep up with you. God damn it. Slow down.”

So the Bee Gees were using it to keep time. And I heard this sound. And so I knew the engineer. His name was Alby Gluten. And I said, “Alby, can I borrow that machine?” He goes, “Yeah, because we’re not going to be in the studio for a week.”

So we were doing a song called “Jack and Diane” that just was not working out because the drummer kept speeding up. And when you try to keep it simple, stupid simple is hard because if you make a little mistake, it’s a big mistake now because there’s not a bunch of s* covering up your mistake, right?

So I called up Mick Ronson. He was the guitar player for David Bowie. Remember, Mick?

JOE ROGAN: No, I don’t, Joe.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: God damn it.

JOE ROGAN: Sorry.

The Drum Machine That Changed Everything

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Anyway, Mick was a great guy. He was Bowie’s guitar player when Bowie was great, when he had Ziggy Stardust and all that stuff. And Ronson was an English guy. And he’d call me Johnny all the time. And, you know. And he said, “Johnny, maybe you should put those baby rattles on there.” And I go, “What?”

He goes, “You know that gum machine thing that makes that noise just to keep time?” And I said, “Okay, we’ll try it.” So we put on this… And it was perfect timing, perfect. So the idea was, is that we’ll take that drum machine out. When we get everything, we’ll take it out.

And now the drummer had to play in time because that machine did not budge. That machine was perfect. And it was a prototype of a drum machine. That’s how new it was. It was a prototype. And it was the only one they gave me, the Bee Gees, to try it out, see how they liked it.

And so we got it all together and we took the drum machine out. Sounded like s*.

JOE ROGAN: Sound.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Sounded great with the drum machine. So I said, “F* it. We’ll just leave the drum machine in.” And it worked because nobody had ever heard that sound.

JOE ROGAN: And the record company didn’t like that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, they hated it.

JOE ROGAN: They hated it.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: They hated that f*ing sound.

JOE ROGAN: But that song was so good.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you know, and it’s surprising to me that to this day, how many people still love that song.

JOE ROGAN: It’s a f*ing great song, you know. What year was that?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 1981.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So how old were you in 1980?

JOE ROGAN: Fourteen. High school.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. You were there?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

Jack and Diane: An American Cultural Icon

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s great. See, that’s great. And I love hearing guys your age talk about it because it’s just like, I didn’t know what the f* I was doing. And the fact that that song today, I had somebody tell me one of the nicest things anybody said to me was, is that “John? There was Romeo and Juliet, there was Frankie and Johnny, and now there’s Jack and Diane. And you’ve joined those two kids, have joined those people of importance in American culture.”

Yeah. Think about it now. Who would have fing thought that some dumb a like me would write a fing song as a child, when I first started writing songs and create those two characters that made such an impression on everybody?

JOE ROGAN: The only other one I think about is Brenda and Eddie from Billy Joel. “Scenes From An Italian Restaurant.” Yeah, that’s another one. Yeah. “Jack and Diane” was f*ing huge when I was in high school. I can’t believe the record company didn’t like that. They didn’t like “Hand To Hold Onto.”

JOHN MELLENCAMP: God, and they didn’t like me. God, and they didn’t like me.

JOE ROGAN: How could you be more wrong than “Jack and Diane”? “Jack and Diane” was f*ing huge.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Joe. Look at… I don’t know that much about your career, but look at your career and look at what suits have said to you and how wrong they were.

Success Without the Suits

JOE ROGAN: Well, the most successful thing that I’ve ever done, nobody had any input on at all, which is this.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, there you go. There you go.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. There’s not a chance in hell anybody would have said, “Yeah, have unfiltered conversations for three hours with random people and millions of people will listen and watch.” No one would have believed it. But when we did it, we didn’t do it for anybody else.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But you were an actor before.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, well, I was a comic first, and then because I got a development deal that gave me some money to be on a sitcom. So I did that. That sitcom got canceled. Then I did another sitcom that was kind of successful called “News Radio” that got canceled. And then I wound up being on “Fear Factor.” You know, just a bunch of weird circumstances that… A lot of luck. A lot of weird stuff happened. A lot of luck. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. See? And you know what? I walk in my house sometimes and I look around and think, “I get to fing live here.” Yeah, “I get to fing live here.”

JOE ROGAN: I think that all the time.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I get to live here. And how lucky I am to have had that kind of success from such a horrible beginning as Johnny Cougar and, you know, to be able to, you know, do… I’ve done what I wanted to do ever since I decided, you guys. Yeah. After “American Fool” came out and those songs became hits. Nobody has ever said s* to me about anything.

JOE ROGAN: Well, they realized they were wrong.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, those guys, I’m sure, are out of business. And I have to kind of smile about the rock critics because it got to the point where I had such so many songs on the radio that they couldn’t ignore it anymore.

JOE ROGAN: You were undeniable. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And you know what? That’s the word I used to say.

JOE ROGAN: That’s the key to success.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s the word I used to say to the guys in the band. “We have to make the song undeniable.” Because if you give them an inch, they’ll find a f*ing reason not to.

The Value of Haters

JOE ROGAN: They definitely will. And there’s good in that, too. There’s good in those people that hate. They’re valuable. They can fuel you to greatness. They can fuel you to be better. Because if you know that there’s people out there that are just going to f*ing hate on you no matter what you do. And you just got to come up with something that, listen, this will be undeniable.

And they’ll still hate it. Look, I was watching a fing interview yesterday where this lady was talking s about the Beatles. She’s talking about how she thinks the Beatles are terrible. And this lady was not particularly articulate. She wasn’t interesting or compelling. She didn’t seem very intelligent. But she was speaking with such authority about how she thought the Beatles were terrible.

I was like, “Well, you’re fing wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. You couldn’t be more wrong. They are one of the greatest bands in the history of the fing known world.”

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Fact.

JOE ROGAN: But this lady was just going… Which shows you you cannot make everybody happy, because some people don’t want to be happy. They don’t want to see good.

The Beatles and George Martin

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You had four really talented people in that band. And it showed because some of the songs… Hear me out. Some of the songs, it was good for my generation because we went from cartoons to rock and roll. So “In a town where I was born, lived a man who sailed his teas” and, you know, it was a cartoon.

JOE ROGAN: Right, right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And the guy that produced Martin, the guy that produced the Beatles up until that point, he made comedy records. Ah, yeah. He made comedy records and cartoons. And so that’s… At least that’s my understanding. And he brought that to them, you know. And, you know, you have four guys writing songs. It’s a lot better than John Mellencamp writing songs, you know, so…

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, but my point is, it’s like, you can’t make everybody happy because everybody’s not happy and they don’t want to be happy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I have said for years, I’m not for anybody. I’m not for anybody anymore.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

The Greatest Hits Tour

JOHN MELLENCAMP: If you’re coming to my show, and this is when I started playing theaters. If you’re coming to my show to hear all these hits, you’re not going to. But that’s why I’m… After 20 years, I’m going to go back out and I’m going to play nothing but hits for two and a half hours. That’s how many hit records I have.

JOE ROGAN: That’s incredible.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, that’s going to… You know. And I’m… And now I’m looking forward to it because I have not played “I Need a Lover” in 25 years on stage. I’ve not.

JOE ROGAN: So it’s fresh.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. It’s a brand new song. I’m going to be playing it in a way that nobody’s ever imagined. Wait till… If you come. If you come and see me, wait till you hear “Jack and Diane.” I have jammed it up. And it’s a soul song now.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

Reimagining Classic Hits

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. There’s a term for smash. A smash. What do they call it? Smash something. Anyway, we turned it into a soul song. I mean, what would it be like if “Jack and Diane” was a Stax soul song? So you leave the melody the same, but you put the instruments around them.

JOE ROGAN: Differently to make it interesting for you.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, and to the audience, because when the chorus comes in, they’re going to be singing that chorus. If I play it now, it’s just usually me and acoustic guitar and it’s good because “a little ditty” and I don’t have to sing anymore. They sing the whole song, and I might go, “oh, yeah.” And that’s it. And then the audience sings it, which is great. Which is great.

JOE ROGAN: It’s got to be really cool. I got to come see you live. Are you in Texas at all?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know.

JOE ROGAN: You don’t know? When did you drop the cougar? Because at first you were John Cougar Mellencamp. And I remember that. I was like, what is going on? Why does he have another name? It was confusing to me.

The Cougar Years

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I was trying to, and I think I did it successfully.

JOE ROGAN: It was a good transition.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I didn’t, you know, I could call up somebody and go, “hey, it’s John Mellencamp.” They wouldn’t take my call. I could call back two seconds later and go “John Cougar,” and then they would take my call. So I figured this will have to be a slow change. Elvis Costello tried to do the same thing in Denmark.

JOE ROGAN: What was his real name?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t remember. But that’s not his real name. But, you know, he was tired of being Elvis Costello and he went back to his real name, and people just wouldn’t accept it. But with me, it was such a slow burn thing to get over. So, you know, again, what luck.

JOE ROGAN: It was the first time that I recognized that artists were forced to change their name. Was you. I didn’t know.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Really?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had no idea.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Do you know, I was a kid. Do you know that every f*ing movie star that we ended up watching on those black and white things, that’s not any of their real names. They’re all changed. They’re all changed. You think Rock Hudson was his real name?

JOE ROGAN: Sounds good.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, it sounds great.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Now, yeah. Somebody decided they wanted to come up with a catchier name, which is interesting for a guy like Arnold Schwarzenegger who kept his real name, as bizarre as it was and hard to pronounce.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, yeah. And I just saw him smashing the president.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, he’s always smashing somebody. I think he’s bored.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: He needs to get back and run.

JOE ROGAN: He was a great governor. He really was. He did a really good job with California. California’s a f*ing mess now. When you transitioned to John Cougar Mellencamp and then eventually, how long were you John Cougar Mellencamp before you became John Mellencamp again?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I think the last John Cougar Mellencamp record was a record called “Scarecrow,” and it had “Small Town” on it. It had five hit, can you imagine? It had five f*ing hit records off that one album.

JOE ROGAN: Pretty amazing.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Lucky. And don’t forget, I had never written a f*ing song. That’s what’s crazy.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Never written a song. So I grew up in public, and if you listen to my songs now, so much more mature than those young. I got so sick of it that I wrote a song called “Pop Singer” in, like, 1990, 1991. “Never wanted to be no pop singer. Never wanted to sing no pop song.”

JOE ROGAN: I remember that.

MTV and the Music Industry

JOHN MELLENCAMP: “Never wanted to, you know, have a manager, hang out after the show.” I just, and, you know, it was, I wanted to be a musician and not a clown, which, you know, if you remember back Joe, I’m not putting anybody down, but there were a lot of clownish guys from MTV.

JOE ROGAN: Sure.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: You know, that were like, what? Yeah, you know, and a lot of sexism and stuff from MTV. And no black people for a while, you know, they didn’t play any black people. They might play Michael Jackson, but other than that. But they just didn’t.

And I remember talking to Sykes about it. Sykes, me, Don Henley and somebody else went and did, they were going to drop MTV off a whole bunch of stations. And we got on a plane and went there, went to all these different stations that were going to drop MTV and talk to them. Why they couldn’t do it and it worked.

JOE ROGAN: Why were they dropping MTV?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Too lewd. Too, I want to tell you something else, young man. I want to tell you something else. I showed a tattoo by accident in a video and MTV wasn’t going to play, wasn’t going to play the video.

JOE ROGAN: Because you had a tattoo.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s hilarious.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, because I had a tattoo.

JOE ROGAN: That’s hilarious. Oh my God. It’s so funny when you think about what music is like now and then especially like in the late 80s when hip hop really took off and then gangsta rap took off.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, and now you know why? Because what we’re talking about, about Soundscan and stuff, that’s how all that happened. And my deceased friend Tim White, who I love dearly, told me it was going to happen. And I just sat back and went, I can’t believe that this is right.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I can’t believe that that can happen. You know, rock is too important to the culture, too important, you know, and there’s a lot better songwriters than me. And we all got 86. I mean, like the Rolling Stones just put out a new album and I never heard it. You never heard it?

The Rolling Stones and Staying Fit

JOE ROGAN: No. I saw them live a couple of years ago here. They played at the Circuit of the Americas. It was f*ing incredible. It was like having an out of body experience. It’s like I couldn’t believe they were really there.

Yeah, I remember watching Mick Jagger on stage and my friend was talking to me and I was watching him and he’s like, isn’t this fing incredible? I was like, I can’t, I can’t believe it’s really him. It’s like they’re so iconic. And here he is in his fing 80s, just jamming. The guy brings two trailers, two whole trailers that are just gym equipment.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Everywhere he goes. Works out every day, every year.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: We started Farm Aid in 1985. And every year because you have at Farm Aid, you have a press conference in the beginning and then I don’t go on until like 9 o’clock. So I got all day. You know what I do half the day? Neil, can I use your gym equipment? Because he’s got a trailer like, you know, you would haul groceries and couches and it’s full of gym equipment. Can I use yours? So I use his. Not his weight so much, but his, you know, his, what do you call it? I call it the lazy machine, where you can be lazy.

JOE ROGAN: Elliptical? Yeah, elliptical, cross trainer. Hey, listen, it’s better than nothing, but I mean, watching Mick in his 80s dancing around on stage and doing a two hour concert was full energy. It’s so impressive, it’s so inspirational. But this guy still loves it that much. I mean, he wasn’t phoning nothing in, you know, I mean it was f*ing him.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Dancing, buttin your whole lip, baby.

JOE ROGAN: I mean it was full on. It was like, wow. It was amazing.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And what I find amazing, and I don’t know why I find it amazing, but I find it amazing that people relate to music in that fashion. Because I didn’t know that as a kid. I just thought, you know, I thought I’d make two records, that’d be done. That’s why I stayed in Bloomington.

I had a little bit of money, I didn’t know how much more I’d have, you know, how much longer I was going to last. So let’s try to like buy a little house. And I talked to, I’m good friends with Bruce and him and I both kind of just look at each other and go, can you f*ing believe it? Because he’s from a real little shitty town in New Jersey. And we both just look at each other and go, can you believe it? It’s unbelievable.

Gratitude and Perspective

JOE ROGAN: Well, gratitude’s an important thing. It’s kind of co-opted today with a lot of like this spiritual movement. You know, people say it and it kind of sounds hollow and fake, but real gratitude, real thankfulness for a life that you’ve been so lucky to have. And I’ve been so lucky to have. It’s very important, it’s an amazing thing. How could you not look back at your life and not think, can you f*ing believe it?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. And you know, the thing of it is that I sometimes ask my audience, I go, where are you right now? And most of you probably say, I am at a John Mellencamp concert in Austin, Texas. And my answer is yes, but also where you really are. You’re on a fing rock that’s going around the fing sun that has been here for millions of f*ing years.

And so we are only here for a blink of an eye. So stop worrying about everything so much. It doesn’t matter. Don’t beep your horn because the guy in front of you didn’t take off right when the light turned red. It’s not that important. Don’t take yourself so seriously and try to, try to have some humility.

You know, that’s what I hate about politics today, there’s no fing humility. How about some humility? I don’t care what party you’re with, I don’t give a f. But show some humility and some respect for each other, which they just don’t. They just don’t. It’s terrible.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. If we could get more people to recognize how brief and fleeting this moment alive is.

Life is Short

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It’s so, well, I got it tattooed right here on my arm. And my grandmother told me this when she lived to be 100. And I would go over and I’d lay in bed with her when she was like 99, 98. And one day she said to me, she goes, “you know, John, if you don’t stop this cussing and wild living, you’re not going to get into heaven.”

And I went, “ah, grandma.” She goes, “yes, you, you know, you need to change your ways a little bit.” And I said, “yeah, well, you’ll get me into heaven, don’t worry about it.” And she said, “no,” she said, “you’re going to find out real soon.” Now listen, “life is short even in its longest days.”

JOE ROGAN: It certainly feels short when you look back, right?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh yeah, but just think about those words coming from a hundred year old woman. You know, “life is short even in its longest days.” Really the opposite end of the spectrum. Oh yeah. “Life goes on.”

JOE ROGAN: Right, right, right, right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So I wrote a song called “Life is Short” and I love playing it. I love playing it because it really hits the nail on the head of, you know, getting, how old you say you were?

JOE ROGAN: 58.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 58 years old. You’re still a kid. You’re still a kid.

JOE ROGAN: How old are you now?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 74.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. Well, you look great.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Thanks. Maybe we can go on a date tomorrow.

JOE ROGAN: Is singing and performing, is it different now? Do you appreciate it more now than when you were younger? Is it a different feeling because like you’ve done so much and the scope of it is so big now in retrospect?

The Greatest Hits Tour and Sharing Your Best Work

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, like I said, I’m really looking forward to going out and doing a greatest hits tour. I’ve never done one. I can’t even imagine thinking back to when I was, like, 35, that idea would be like, shut the f* up. I’m not doing that.

But now, at my age, it’s kind of like. And I did a thing with Sean Penn, and Sean and I were talking, and he goes, John, just go do it. Because I was on the fence about doing it. He goes, what’s wrong with you? Yes, go do it. Don’t you think that if I could, like, show the best parts of my movies to people, that I would do it? And I go, I don’t know. He goes, yeah, because you’re really sharing something.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s also not a whole lot of people have ever done it before, right? Not a whole lot of people have ever had the kind of hits that you’ve had. So the opportunity to go out there and do two and a half hours of f*ing hits.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I know, is amazing. And I have to. Like I said, I walk in my house and I go, I can’t believe I get to live here. And, you know, I feel good about, you know, I’m the only father in the world that does not encourage their kids to work. It’s like, what do you want to go to work for?

You know, my son graduated from Duke, and it’s just like, ah, f* that work stuff. Do what you want to do. You’re 31 years old. You’re handsome. You’re 31 years old. You could beat anybody up in the room, you know, why do you want to? But I think he’s getting to the age where he wants to get a job, and I don’t want him to leave because he still lives on my property.

And it’s nice. I love having him in there. I love having Hud live with me. He doesn’t live with me. He lives in a different house, a different building. But I love having him there because I know that I can pick up the phone and go, hey, Hud. And he’s there. And I’m telling you, having kids was one of the best things I ever did.

Fatherhood and Loss

JOE ROGAN: It’s interesting, too, because having a kid when you’re in high school, a lot of people think is like a death sentence for your career, you know?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, it was a death sentence for my kid. You know, I was 18 years old. I was on drugs. You know. My idea of raising a kid back then, when I was in college was throwing water balloons at her. That’s all I knew. This is fun, you know. But it turned out, you know. But yeah, I really enjoy my kids.

And my dad told me that. He told me, have as many kids as you can because when you get older. Because, see, I had. I don’t know about you, but I had seven of my best friends die in 18 months.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Because they couldn’t get off the party. They just couldn’t get off the party because they were drunk all the time. I mean, if you drank Crown Royal every f*ing day.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It’s going to f* up your liver.

JOE ROGAN: 100%. Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And that’s what they did. I mean, you know, except Tim. Tim had a heart attack. Tim White, that the guy I was telling you about? He died on an elevator ride in New York, from the ground floor to his office. And by the time he got up there, he was dead. Wow.

But he would call me up every day and go, man, my chest really hurts. My back really hurts. You know? And I would go, Tim, your dad died at like, 49, from heart disease. You think you’d better go to the doctor? I don’t want to go. That’s what most guys do. They don’t want to go to the f*ing doctor.

JOE ROGAN: Yep.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, but I do.

Smoking and Health

JOE ROGAN: Does the doctor tell you to stop smoking?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: All the time. But, see, here’s the thing about cigarettes. Find something you love and let it kill you. Find something you love and let it kill you.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s not killing you yet.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And I just had a heart mammogram and all that stuff. And the doctors go, because the heart is shaped like this, you know, like that. And then what happens is that as you longer you smoke, it flattens out. And that way it’s full of crap. Mine’s still like this.

And he said, it was two years ago. He said, well, I’d like to tell you you need to quit smoking, but if you’ve been smoking as long as I know you have, the only thing that’s really happened is that your heart looks like a teenager’s and your voice sounds black.

JOE ROGAN: Do you think it’s because you smoke American Spirits? I talked to a doctor that said that to me, Suzanne Humphrey. She was like, I think that one of the things that’s killing people is cigarettes with all the additives in it, all the different chemicals that they put.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: 120 chemicals.

JOE ROGAN: Crazy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: My girlfriend hates that I fing smoke. Of course, she knew I was smoking when she met me. But now that we’ve been together for three years, and my wife of 20 years, Elaine, never smoked a cigarette in her life till she met me. And then she started smoking. She, on one hand, just said, well, f it. If you can’t beat him, join them. So she started smoking. But Kristen hates cigarettes.

JOE ROGAN: And.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know what to tell her because, you know, I don’t do much good, but I’m really a good smoker, really good at it.

JOE ROGAN: What is it that you love about cigarettes so much?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: They’re part of me. I don’t know how to put it. I mean, I smoked my first cigarette at 10.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. 64 years of smoking.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s crazy. And you’re okay.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I was addicted in high school.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I used to wake up in the morning, and my parents had a great big house. And I would go down into basement, go into the f*ing storm cellar and smoke, not knowing that I came out of that little area smelling like a cigarette ashtray.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And my parents, you know, was like, have you been smoking downstairs? Yeah, but they never said anything.

JOE ROGAN: Well, maybe it’s better than having the stress of not smoking. One of the things about smoking, and I’m not an advocate, I’m not telling people they should smoke, but maybe one of the things about it is that at least it relaxes you.

I think one of the worst things for people is just stress. I was talking about a friend of mine who’s going through something pretty heavy right now, and he’s had a couple of heart attacks. And there’s nothing wrong with him. He’s had heart attacks just from stress where his f*ing arteries just lock up. His whole body is just locked up just from anxiety and stress. And he’s had heart attacks because of that.

Doesn’t smoke, doesn’t drink, takes care of himself. And just the problems in his life are so overwhelming. There’s got to be. There’s a benefit. There’s got to be a benefit to just relaxing. Just enjoying something and relaxing and not having that overwhelming situation.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, it’s amazing how much cigarettes take you away from. Because you’ve got to. You know, nowadays, if you’re a cigarette smoker, you know, I’m lucky to be here with you that I could smoke in your area, but most people would go outside.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

The Johnny Cash Story

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But I’ll tell you a funny story about Johnny Cash and me. John and I knew each other, and I would go down and I would see him in Jamaica, and then he got really sick. But John quit smoking. And John and I did something for the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

And another funny story, we were standing around getting ready to do sound check. And there was a whole bunch of people playing. A whole bunch of people. And the Eagles were on sound checking, and they were taking forever because Don Henley is a perfectionist. Everything’s got a beat just right.

And I was standing with John and June, and John was getting irritated because we were like, 40 minutes, you know, we’d been standing there ready to sound check for 40 minutes. So while we’re standing there, I was smoking, and John goes, you’re going to have to quit that smoking, John. It’s going to catch up with you someday.

I said, well, you f*ing smoke. And he goes, well, I used to, but I saw this guy from London and he got me to quit smoking. I go, maybe I should see that guy. He goes, okay, yeah, I will. You will.

Anyway. So anyway, we finally get on to soundcheck, and John sound checked without me because I just sang one song with him. And then when it came time to sound check, I went, you know John. You know, like, he was irritated. I don’t know if you knew Johnny Cash or not. He had a fing temper, you know. He didn’t f with John Cash. We just didn’t. Anyway, I said, you know, John.

JOE ROGAN: You.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Know, I got this song, and we were doing “Ring of Fire.” I said, I know that song. It’s easy. He said, you sure? And I said, yeah, yeah, I got it. I got it. He goes, okay, well, thanks, because, you know, I’m sick of f*ing being here.

So the next night, we get up there, and John. And he introduces me to my friend John Mellencamp. He started. So I fell into. I didn’t realize that he had changed the fing key from him smoking to a lower key. So I couldn’t hit the note because it was. I fell into. I couldn’t find a fing note because it was not the note the song was written in.

I sing right along with the song, and I look over there and there’s Chuck Berry going. And I look over there and there’s Springsteen going. And all these people on the side the stage, right? And they’re all giving me a look like, you’re f*ing up, man. It was like, yeah, I know it.

And so anyway, as soon as the song was over, I ran off stage. I was totally humiliated, right? So I ran off stage and got to my trailer. I just get back there, and all of a sudden, knock on the door, and I answer, and it’s John. He said, can I come in? And I go, I don’t know why you’d want to. But, yeah, come on in. He goes, I told you we should have sound checked.

Anyway, so that conversation led on to, I know this guy who will get you to quit smoking. And so he gives me all the information and me and two other guys fly this guy over from London. And Joe, here was his solution for not smoking. He gave me a good talking to. That’s it. That was it. I was smoking on the way back to Indiana.

JOE ROGAN: My friend Ron White’s been smoking his whole life and he just stopped and he went to a hypnotist. Same hypnotist. He quit drinking a few years back. Went to a hypnotist, quit drinking. Easy, he said. It was so easy.

And then just recently, like within last three or four weeks, quit smoking. He’s almost 70. Just said, the hypnotist got him and said now he doesn’t have the desire. He goes, sometimes he goes after sex. He goes after a meal. Sometimes I have, like, for a brief.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, yeah, I don’t have to worry about that. I’m too old for sex. I don’t have to worry about that anymore.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I guess Ron still gets after it because after he said, just a brief second, and then it goes away.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I’ll tell you, I was friends with the Newman family and Paul quit smoking and died right afterwards.

JOE ROGAN: Was the smoking contributing to his health problems?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, and it was just like he was older. It was like, you know, I mean, he was like 80s. I don’t know. Can you see how old he was when he died? Anyway, so, you know, I just kind of went.

JOE ROGAN: Find what you love and let it kill you.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, find what you love and let it kill you.

JOE ROGAN: 83. Yeah, I f*ing loved that guy. “Hustler,” one of my favorite movies of all time.

Meeting Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, I’m really good friends with Joanne, who now is. I love Joanne. And once Paul died, I became her boyfriend and she and I would talk all the time on the phone. And whenever I was in New York or the town she lives in, north of New York, I’d take her to plays and we’d go to plays and we’d do stuff. And I’d pinch her on the ass and she’d look at me like.

But then when she started calling me, when I would call her and she started calling me Paul, I would have to go, “Joanne, it’s not Paul, it’s John.” And now I still go see her all the time. Not all the time. Not as much as I should. But she, I can’t remember the name, the f*ing town she lives in. Anyway, she can’t talk. She can’t, you know, she has, what do you call it?

JOE ROGAN: Dementia?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. And she can’t talk. And she can, you know, I take my guitar and I’ll play and sing for her. But, you know, she’s always happy to see me. I think she realizes that it’s me, though. I love her. I mean, she was just, she was just great. She was a great woman.

How I met her was at a Democratic thing for, who was the guy that ran for president? John.

JOE ROGAN: John Kerry.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: John Kerry. And it was a radio station city. And I have a son named Hud. And Paul Newman starred in the movie “Hud.” And so Newman walked in to my dressing room and goes, “I’m looking for Hud Mellencamp.” And he was with me, but he was running around Radio City somewhere. Have you ever been to Radio City?

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Have you been backstage?

JOE ROGAN: Mm.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: There’s all kind of shit going on. You can go anywhere in that place. Anyway, so Hud was running around there, and I just let him go wherever he wants. And I’m sitting there talking to Paul. I’m like, this is pretty cool.

And then Joanne walked in and was like, “All right, Newman.” Hey. Because she was beautiful. I mean, Joe, you cannot. She must have been in her late 50s, something like that. She was gorgeous. It’s like one of the prettiest women I’d ever seen. And so I just kind of like, “Well, it’s nice meeting you, Paul. Hey, Joanne.” And that’s how we became friends.

And even before he died, her and I were talking on the phone and, yeah, I love Joanne. I hope she lives forever, but, you know, I know the people take care of her. It’s sad.

JOE ROGAN: It’s just hard to see someone in a deteriorated state like that as they get older.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you know, have you ever seen the movie, God, I can’t think, “The Fugitive Kind”?

JOE ROGAN: What is it?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: “The Fugitive Kind”?

JOE ROGAN: I don’t think so.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Rogan, you got to watch it. Yeah, it’s great. You love it? It’s called “The Fugitive Kind.” It stars Brando and Joanne Woodward, and it’s just such a, written by Tennessee Williams. Oh, it’s really, really good. Really good. It’s one of my favorite movies ever made, “The Fugitive Kind.”

JOE ROGAN: I’ll check it out.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And.

Old Movies and Entertainment

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I know a lot about old movies because I don’t watch new movies. If it’s not in black and white, I’m not watching.

JOE ROGAN: Really?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Has it always been the case, or is that a new thing?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, it’s always been really. Yeah. My girlfriend Kristen will talk to me, “You know that actor,” and I’ll go, “No, I don’t.” I don’t know anybody in the entertainment business anymore except guys my age.

JOE ROGAN: You know, that’s probably a good thing.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But I don’t know any of them, you know, I know Sean, you know, but I’ve known Sean since he was a kid before Ridgemont High.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s how long I’ve known that guy.

JOE ROGAN: Wow, that was a f*ing great movie.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, it was.

JOE ROGAN: They can’t make a comedy like that anymore.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, no. They couldn’t even get it. They wouldn’t make it again.

Political Correctness and Comedy

JOE ROGAN: Not a chance. Not a chance in hell. That’s the thing with political correctness and then the woke movement. That’s the thing that really died, was the great comedy movies, the inappropriate.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, you answer me this question.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Why did anybody give a shit anyway? I mean, you know, 86. And what was the senator, the guy, the comedian that wrote for Saturday Night Live, who was Al Franken? Yeah, yeah, I just said f* you guys.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, should have. Yeah, yeah.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I mean, why did he let some.

JOE ROGAN: The climate got crazy. People lost their f*ing minds. And I think it’s kind of turned around and people are kind of recognizing that it was a massive over-correction.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: It was.

JOE ROGAN: But the problem is the comedy films. Like, if you go back and watch, you know, like “Tropical Thunder” or any of those kind of crazy movies that were like really outrageous and funny, like, you know, you can’t make them today. Nobody wants to fund them and finance them. Nobody wants the heat, nobody wants to deal with the criticism. They essentially killed comedy movies.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, and that’s what I was asking you. How’s doing stand up?

JOE ROGAN: You can’t kill stand up. The problem is stand up is like, people will come to see you and that’s all that matters. People come to see you and they laugh. That’s all that matters. Like the critics don’t matter.

Stand-Up Comedy Today

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Who’s your favorite stand up comedian now alive?

JOE ROGAN: There’s so many good ones right now. I mean, Chappelle’s probably the greatest, if one of the greatest of all time. And we’re lucky we have him alive now. But, you know, Bill Burr’s great. Shane Gillis, there’s, it’s an amazing time for stand up. David Tell is probably like the most unheralded great comic that’s alive today. There’s so many great comedy, so many great comedians now.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: What about Jim Jeffries?

JOE ROGAN: Jim Jeffries is funny. There’s Australian guy, there’s, you know, more comics now that are huge than I think have ever been alive in the history of comedy. Because of YouTube and Instagram and definitely Netflix, because there’s just more comedy to see, there’s more comedy to go watch. More comics right now are selling out arenas than ever in the history of stand up comedy.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I’ve seen it on television.

JOE ROGAN: You just can’t worry about what the haters think. You can’t worry about that. You just got to just do what you think is funny and what you think the audience is going to think is funny and work real hard at it. That’s all you have to do. And just don’t pay attention to the criticism. If you do, it’ll kill you.

Richard Pryor’s Genius

JOHN MELLENCAMP: The best stand up comedian movie I ever saw was the first Richard Pryor.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, “Live on the Sunset Strip.” Changed my life. Well, that changed my life.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That was the third one.

JOE ROGAN: Was it?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: So Wanted was before that, right?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. And that took place in New Orleans.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. There was one he filmed in Long Beach.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That is the one I’m talking about.

JOE ROGAN: Phenomenal. Phenomenal.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Unbelievable.

JOE ROGAN: Phenomenal.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Unbelievable.

JOE ROGAN: And while he’s getting on stage, people are still coming in and sitting down. I know he’s f*ing with people as they’re coming and sitting down. I don’t think he had an opening act. I think he just came out.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: No, he did. He had, yeah, he had, what’s the woman’s name? The singer.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, he had a musical opening act.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Interesting.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I can’t remember who it was, but he thanked him. He thanked her.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, okay.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: But I saw that in like 19, whatever year, it was 79 when it came out, and I was in Florida and I had to go into the black part of Miami to see it. And I took a couple guys in my band with me and this one guy named Ferd in my band was just an idiot. We walk in there and there’s nothing but black people. So I’m okay. And Ferd walks in like this and I go, “What the f are you doing? What the f.”

JOE ROGAN: He walked in grabbing his deck.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. Because he wanted to show them that he was Patti Nobel. Yeah. That’s who opened up.

JOE ROGAN: There it is. Nice.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. So anyway, he’s grabbing his dick, walking in and I’m looking at him going, “Are you out of your f*ing mind? Stop doing it.”

JOE ROGAN: My parents took me to see “Live on the Sunset Strip” when I was a kid. I was in high school and I guess I was like 15 at the time, something like that. And I remember looking around at all the people laughing, and I couldn’t believe how funny it was. I couldn’t believe how funny it was. I couldn’t believe this guy could just be on stage talking and it would be that funny.

But I’d seen all these comedy movies that were really funny, but nothing ever made me laugh as hard as this one man on stage talking. I’ll never forget it. I was little. I was, like, looking around the crowd, and people were just falling out of their seats, laughing, slapping each other. Couldn’t.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Couldn’t believe how funny it was.

JOE ROGAN: Well, you know, the backstory on that, on that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: What’s the backstory?

JOE ROGAN: The backstory was, that was take two.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, yeah. He bombed the first one. Yeah, well, he.

JOE ROGAN: For whatever reason, I did hear that he decided to do the show backwards.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Oh, wow.

JOE ROGAN: So he started with, you know, how he ended and was going to work his way forward. And I don’t know why he did that, but apparently people that knew him told me that he would always do shit like that.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Well, he was creative. I had heard that he was working it out at the Comedy Store, and then he would come in on a Monday night and it was bombing. And then by Friday night, he was destroying with the same material. He just figured out a way to tweak it, you know, that was back when he was working with Paul Mooney. Paul Mooney was one of his writers, who was a guy that I knew really well. I worked with him at the Comedy Store, and so Mooney and him would just figure out what the beats were.

The Comedy Store

JOHN MELLENCAMP: So did you play the Comedy Store a lot?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was my home club in LA.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And how did you go down?

JOE ROGAN: I got in. I auditioned in 1994. You know, I came from LA. I came from New York, rather to LA to do a sitcom, and I didn’t really give a shit about the sitcom. That wasn’t really that important to me. I was only doing it for money.

But while I was there, I was like, “God, I got to go to the Comedy Store.” Because when I lived in Boston, when I first started stand up in 88, they would talk about the Comedy Store like it was a religious experience. It was like Mecca. Because this was after Sam Kinison had made it, of course, Richard Pryor had come from there, Bill Hicks had come from there, David Letterman, so many people had come from there. Robin Williams.

And so they just talked about it with, like, hushed tones, like, “Man, you got to get to the Comedy Store.” It was like a pilgrimage. Like, you had to get there. And I got there in 94 and never left until the pandemic.

Letterman and the Power of Inspiration

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I was friends with Letterman because he’s from Indianapolis, and his mom used to come down to my house in Bloomington and we’d have—his mom and his stepdad would come down and have dinner with me at my house.

And so Letterman—I did a couple things on Letterman where I cooked a cake with his mom in Indianapolis and brought the cake to David for his birthday. And I like Letterman. He’s always been nice to me.

And his mom told me a story. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I had just released my first album, and David was still doing the weather locally in Indianapolis.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And he said to his mom, “If that kid can go out and do it, I can too.”

JOE ROGAN: Oh, wow.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: That’s what his mom said. I don’t know if that’s true or not. His mom told me that. I never asked Dave about it.

JOE ROGAN: You shouldn’t even ask. Let it live in legend.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah. I like the story.

Closing Thoughts

JOE ROGAN: John, thank you so much, man. This was a lot of fun. It was a real pleasure meeting you. I really enjoyed it, man. And I’ve been a big fan of yours for years. So this was a real treat for me.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I’m glad to be here, and I hope you come and see me play.

JOE ROGAN: I would love to. I definitely will. Do tours on your website. Is it johnmellencamp.com or something like that?

JOHN MELLENCAMP: I don’t know.

JOE ROGAN: People find it, we’ll find it.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I don’t know.

JOE ROGAN: We’ll find it. Thank you. Thank you very much. It was really fun. Thank you. All right.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: And you’re going to hate those f*ing tattoos.

JOE ROGAN: Nope, I don’t think so. I like them.

JOHN MELLENCAMP: Yeah, I thought I liked mine, too. I thought I liked mine, too.

JOE ROGAN: Bye, everybody.

Related Posts

• Scott Ritter: Full-Scale War as Iran Attacks All U.S. Targets (Transcript)
• Seyed M. Marandi: Israel & U.S. Launch Surprise Attack on Iran (Transcript)
• Joe Rogan Podcast: #2461 w/ Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (Transcript)
• Tucker Carlson Show: w/ Catherine Fitts on Control Grid, Banks’ Role in War (Transcript)
• Megyn Kelly Show: w/ Tucker Carlson on Epstein, Iran, America’s Gender Divide (Transcript)