Paul Ronzheimer Interviews Tucker Carlson (Transcript)

It’s not that I look down at most politicians – I think they’re deceptive, they’re liars, and I think there are a lot of other problems with them. Not all, but the overwhelming majority. But it’s not just that. The system itself is just not something that I think I would be good at.

I’m not interested in politics. I never have been interested in how do you raise this amount of money or get this number of votes or appeal to different demographics or interest groups. My brain doesn’t work that way. I’m not interested in it. And I also don’t have a lust for power.

On Power and Leadership

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But you have power.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know that I do, but any power I have – I mean, it’s nice to see people listen to you. I do like that. I am grateful that I have a platform that allows me to speak and people hear it if they want. It’s voluntary, however, and that’s the difference. You don’t have to listen to my show. I’m not bossing anyone around, telling anyone what to do, making decisions for anybody else, merely pointing out things that I think are true and people can use them to make their own decisions.

There is a voluntary relationship. And when it becomes compulsory, when it becomes authoritarian, it just makes me uncomfortable. I have no interest in that. It’s just not my nature. I’m not insecure. I’m not compensating for a bad marriage or a weird personal life by bossing other people around. And I think a lot of people in power are.

I’ve noticed, certainly in your continent, but also in ours, so many leaders don’t have children. They literally don’t have kids. So they’re running a country, almost definitionally, without an eye to preserving it. That’s the whole point. And they have no skin in the game.

If you dig a little deeper, you find – this is not always true, but it’s largely true – that they have these tragic personal lives. Tragic on the most basic level: their spouse doesn’t respect them, their kids hate them, they have no real friends. That’s a tragedy by definition of tragedy, actually.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I would say you find that everywhere, not only with politicians, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course you find it everywhere, but you find it in much higher proportion among politicians, I have noticed. So then the question becomes, well, what are we looking at? We’re looking at people compensating for a barren internal life, spiritual life, barren personal life. Their relationships are broken. They’re compensating for all of that by fixing climate change or ending malaria in Africa or beating Putin or whatever. They externalize all of their emptiness or sadness and kind of cause other people to suffer as a result of that. I just couldn’t find it more repulsive.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: When was the last time you felt power, that you personally have power?

TUCKER CARLSON: When one of my dogs was chasing a deer. I was walking through the woods with one of my dogs – I have hunting dogs who also sleep on the bed, so they’re pets, and I love them. One of them, they have very strong noses and can smell something hundreds of yards away. One of my dogs takes off after a deer, and I said to the dog, “Stop.” The dog put on the brakes immediately and came back to me.

So I defeated the dog’s instinct through training, and that dog’s respect for me was obvious, and I felt happy about that. I don’t boss my dogs around, but I love the fact that the dog respected me enough to obey.

I have no human relationships like that. I don’t talk to anyone in my family that way. I don’t talk to anyone who works for me that way. You can ask them – they’re standing right here. I don’t like that. I don’t like the master-slave relationship at all.

On Egalitarian Values and Government Transparency

I am a product of Northern European egalitarian culture, Protestant culture, which is egalitarian. Every person is fundamentally equal. This is right from the New Testament, because every person was created by God. Now, some people do good things, others do bad things. Some are more flawed than others, but everybody has a soul. So everybody on the most basic spiritual level is equal. That is my core belief.

That was a core American belief. This was a Protestant Northern European country in North America. We brought those assumptions to its founding. They have been evident my whole life, until recently, where a whole new set of hierarchical assumptions, master-slave assumptions, have taken over. They’re manifest in, among many other things, the higher level of secrecy now, which is what you notice in Latin America and Eastern Europe.

I’ve traveled a lot, and one of the main differences between cultures is in most places in the world – Asia – the average person feels he has no right to know what his government’s doing because they’re in charge and he’s not. In Western Europe and in the United States, for centuries, people thought, “No, this is my country, it’s my government. You’re acting by proxy on my behalf. I’m giving you the reins, but ultimately they belong to me. I have a right to know.”

That assumption has completely changed. But I have not given up that assumption. I am an egalitarian. I believe that every person has the same moral value. I really believe that. Therefore every person has a right to speak. Every person has a right to relevant knowledge. You can’t boss people around. You can’t force them to go die without a really good reason. You can’t just conscript people and send them off for your stupid war because you’re mad at some other leader. You can’t do that.

On Ukraine and Military Conscription

PAUL RONZHEIMER: We’ll get to that, to Ukraine. But let’s talk first…

TUCKER CARLSON: I want an “amen” here.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, well, I was in Ukraine a lot, but…

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it’s not about Ukraine. It’s about how you treat other people. You can’t just tell someone, “Leave your wife and kids and go die because I say so.” What do you think? He’s a human being. If you behave like that, you’re not looking at a human being. You’re looking at an animal, an object, a slave, someone you own. I reject that completely. You want me to go die for you? Tell me why I should. Convince me.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: There are many people in Ukraine, from the beginning of the war, who went to the front line defending Kiev – went there and nobody had to force them, but I wanted to… we’ll talk about it.

TUCKER CARLSON: And right now, where are we now?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well…

TUCKER CARLSON: How many 25-year-old Ukrainian men are left and how many are anxious to continue fighting this war? Are there any?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: There are people who are anxious, you’re right. But there are also many people I meet at the front line who tell me that they want to fight. And they say this independently…

TUCKER CARLSON: By the way, it’s not just Ukrainian. But why are they rounding up young men and middle-aged men and men with Down syndrome? It’s on video. I think those are real. And throwing them into vans and driving them to their death. I don’t understand that. Why is that?

Tucker Carlson on Authority and Individual Rights

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Okay, there’s a lot of videos around, like on Telegram on X. You know, I see them myself. But if you talk to people in the country, it’s not that nobody wants to fight and that they all…

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m sure many people do want to fight. I’m taking your word for it. I’m just saying, what about the man who doesn’t want to fight? I don’t understand. Where does Zelensky, who’s not elected, who has stayed past his expiration date, does not have the mandate of his people – I don’t think anyone would argue that he does. If he does, then why don’t we have a referendum tomorrow?

Where does he get the power to send men to their deaths? It’s not about Zelensky or Ukraine. It’s a fundamental question about the relationship of the individual to the state, which is: where do you get the authority to kill me? Where does that come from? And no one asks that. And I feel like it’s my job to ask that.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You’ve been asking that. Other people have been asking that. But I wanted to…

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t hear anyone asking that in Germany. What is this? How do you have the right to hide this from me? I don’t get that. Where does that right come from?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: It’s not hidden. There were reports in Germany talking about that, you know, like that people were…

TUCKER CARLSON: Pipeline who wrecked your economy. Every time I bring that up to a German, and I am very well…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: There’s many, many reports about it. That many reports. Well, I mean, they’re still investigating, you know. Yeah, the German authorities. And there’s a… I mean, the latest reports came out from the Journal saying that Ukraine is behind. So I know you have a different opinion on that, but I have one question, Mr. Carlson, because we were talking about curiosity. We’ll come back to that. Yeah, we will. Because we were talking about power. And the last time I saw that, you have power yourself. Now, as Tucker Carlson, who has a lot of viewers, a lot of people listening to him, was when I was in Milwaukee last year, the National Convention.

TUCKER CARLSON: The German population.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Absolutely. And I was there, I was listening to you and others during the convention where Trump was nominated and you were on stage and people were cheering. And I was like, wow. So what was your role there?

The Milwaukee Convention and Political Alignment

TUCKER CARLSON: When you’re on stage, people cheer you. It’s kind of part of the deal. It’s just like, reflects it. “Oh, he’s on stage. Yay. Good. Good for you, stage guy.”

What was my role there? I mean, I campaigned for Trump. I voted for Trump. I don’t normally vote. Don’t really like voting. Sorry. But I don’t usually vote. I voted for Trump, and I know Trump very well, and I have always liked Trump, and I’ve been frustrated with him, but I like him.

And he asked me to speak at the convention, and so I did. And I did not have prepared remarks, because I never do. And I really believe in saying a prayer and just talking and something – you hope something true comes out. And so that’s what I did. And I don’t remember anything that I said, because I never do, because I don’t prepare it at all.

And they asked me to write a speech so they could vet it. I said, “I don’t think… I’ve never done that.” And I’ve given literally a couple thousand speeches in my life. I’ve never done that. I don’t think I can do that. And they were very nice to me and said, “Okay, then, just don’t go too long.”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: How important was your support to Trump during the campaign?

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you mean?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, that you said publicly you would vote for him and that you liked his policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, you mean, do people vote for Trump because of me? No, I don’t think so. I don’t know anyone who said “I was kind of thinking about voting for Kamala Harris, and then I saw your speech in Milwaukee.” I don’t think I had any effect at all.

It had an effect on me, which was to kind of clarify… I mean, I have been a journalist my whole life, since I was 22, and I have strong opinions, but I never wanted to be aligned with a politician. You need some distance.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Then you came aligned in a way.

TUCKER CARLSON: I absolutely became aligned.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So how did this happen?

The Assassination Attempt and Physical Courage

TUCKER CARLSON: It happened because Trump was shot. That made me emotional. I thought that his response to it was remarkable, the bravery that he displayed. I talked to him the night that he was shot, and he didn’t complain at all. And he said, “Yep, I’m glad to be alive.” But, you know, he just was very manly about it.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But you also supported him before that?

TUCKER CARLSON: I did, but that was the moment. So he was shot on a Saturday, and that was really the moment where I was like, “Wow, I’m going to do whatever I can for this man.” Because I was so impressed by his physical courage, which I think is essential.

And I think medieval Europe functioned much better than modern Europe in this one specific regard. The people with the most wealth and power rode at the front of the column, they got killed first. You want to have a war, okay, then you should risk your life. That just seems like it would make sense.

Of course, you can’t order people into war to go die unless you’re willing to die yourself. And if you’re not willing to die, what are you saying? “It’s important, but it’s not so important I put my own life at risk.” That’s disgusting. I think that’s totally wrong.

If you’re going to have a war, you should be out there on the front lines risking your life because it’s that important. And if it’s not that important, don’t do it. So I think it’s essential. It’s a kind of prerogative of power that you be willing to risk as much as you’re calling on any other person to risk.

Physical courage really matters. I know we’re non-gender specific and “women are just as good leaders as men.” Okay, that’s a separate conversation. But that conversation has obscured the basic requirement for leadership, which is courage. And I thought Trump displayed that.

Journalism and Truth-Telling

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You mentioned it, that you never wanted to be aligned to a politician because you are a journalist. Has this changed your understanding of journalism in the past 10, 15 years?

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I’ve lost faith in conventional journalism. You know, I’m, as I noted, in my 50s. You shouldn’t stay in journalism into your 50s. You’ll never meet… and you shouldn’t. By the way, I don’t know how old you are.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Only 10 more years.

TUCKER CARLSON: Need to get out now, man. You will get bitter and jaded.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Turning 40.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a young man’s game. You should go… You should go into the energy business and become like a natural gas oligarch. You know, do something that’s interesting and useful. But I like my job. I have no… It’s such a fun job. I totally agree, but if you talk to any person who’s been in it for 35 years, they’re all disillusioned and bitter and cynical, like 100%.

I mean, my dad did this, so I spent my whole life in it. And I didn’t mean to stay this long, I just did. And you’re not really in control of your own life. And so I have a lot of bitterness about the pretense behind journalism, which is a lie. “We’re totally objective. We’re just, you know, we’re just trying to make everyone obey the rules.” There are no rules. It’s all fake.

And so the conclusion that I’ve come to is the only way to proceed with integrity is just to tell the truth. Just, period. Just tell the truth with… again, with the knowledge that you are often wrong because you’re a human being, but just be as honest as you can be. That’s what… And then journalism, I don’t know, but that’s what I’m doing.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So that means that you also say, “I’m in favor of Trump,” for example.

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s something weird about it. It’s not like calling Trump and saying, “Man, you know, if I endorse you, can I… can you change the law to make cryptocurrency… you know, my cryptocurrency legal or whatever.” That is immoral.

What I think is defensible… I don’t know if it’s moral or not to be involved in any of this, but what’s defensible, what I feel comfortable with is being completely transparent about my views and my motives. That’s the best I can do.

Relationship with Trump

PAUL RONZHEIMER: How has your relation with Trump evolved since election?

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I don’t know if you would call it a relationship. I mean, I know him well. I’ve known him for over 20 years.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I mean, you were on the phone quite often, right? That’s what I…

TUCKER CARLSON: For sure.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: How often?

TUCKER CARLSON: Every night? How often? I don’t know. You know, I talk to a million people all the time. I would just say this about Trump. I find him hilarious, really funny, like one of the funniest people I’ve ever met. I try to be a deep person, kind of shallow in some ways, and if someone is hilarious, I like him. I’ve always liked that about Trump.

I think he’s tough. I admire that. We need more of that. When other world leaders come to Angela Merkel, that silly woman running Italy, and they’re like, “No, we need more migrants from Africa.” Really? You need someone who’s strong enough to be like, “No, that’s not… We’re not doing that.”

So weakness is the core problem of Western leadership, right? Weakness. These unhappy women have no idea what they’re doing, and they get bullied into doing something that’s terrible for their country. Trump is tough. And so that’s very important to me.

And I think Trump has insights that he does not fully articulate a lot of the time, but that are important. You know, he has this gut sense of what matters. So there are things about Trump I absolutely love and admire. There are other things that, you know, I disagree with, and I try to be honest enough to say that. So I’m not an advisor to Trump. I’m someone who likes him, who admires the things that I just described. But I’m…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: When was the last time you talked to him?

TUCKER CARLSON: Two weeks ago, probably about Iran, Israel.

Phone Surveillance and Public Criticism

Yeah. I mean, I would just say that… I don’t think I’ve ever… Well, all of it is on tape because people are always listening to you through your phone. Okay. Which I know you know, I don’t know if your viewers know that, but the bottom of your phone, the microphone, if it is possible… This is not true for everybody. But if you are a person like you who talks to heads of state regularly, there are individuals and governments that want to know what the conversation is about, and so they will use this to listen to your conversation. Just a fact.

Your phone calls are monitored if you are someone who’s talking to powerful people. So my phone calls are monitored, obviously, and I know that. And so every conversation I’ve ever had with Trump, I’m sure exists somewhere in digital form and will probably surface. So you can check this at some point, probably after I’m dead.

But I don’t think I’ve ever said anything to Trump that I wouldn’t say in public, ever. I’ve used bad language. I have told jokes.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: How was the atmosphere? I mean, if it was two weeks ago, there was a lot of public discussions and, I mean, Trump was talking about you in public and was saying, “Can someone please explain to that over the top Carlson that Iran must not have a nuclear bomb?” And then he added, “I have no idea what Carlson means. He should say it on TV so people can actually listen.”

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s pretty funny.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Did that criticism hurt you or…

TUCKER CARLSON: I actually hadn’t heard that till right now, to be honest.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I don’t believe you, I promise.

Trump’s Response to Iran Strikes

TUCKER CARLSON: Really? No. Someone told me. He called me a couple. That’s pretty funny. I’m a little kooky, so that’s okay. Doesn’t smell much fun. Yeah, he’s. I’m not surprised that he said that he disagreed. I mean, my view was and remains. But by the way, there have been no immediate consequences of our strike on Iran, and I’m grateful there’s been no Shiite terror attack in the United States. Our bases in all those Gulf countries have not been attacked except once, in a kind of performative way.

So my worries, my fears have not come true. And if that continues to be the case, I will be thrilled to be wrong. I have no pride in that at all. I just want the best for my country and for my children. So if my fears turn out to be just neuroses, great, great. I have no need to post facto justify that and be like, “well, actually, no, no.” If Trump was right and I was wrong, amen.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Do you think that Trump changed his opinion? Because, I mean, you talked to him in the past years about Iran, Israel, Ukraine, and now he sees it in a different perspective, or is it the people around him?

The Burden of Presidential Decision-Making

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, look, I’m looking at this from a – I’m not having to make any decisions, okay? That’s not my job. There are no consequences. You know what I mean? I’m not in charge of anybody other than our staff, my family. I don’t have 5 million federal workers who work for me, whatever. And I’m not running United States. So Trump is looking at this from a very different perspective from any other human being on the planet. And I don’t have that perspective. So it’s easy for me to have opinions. He has to make decisions. That’s the point.

I have said the same thing for many years, which is, a country should act in its own interests, and I think alliances are great. I believe in getting along with my neighbors in other countries. I wish we got along with more countries. I think we’re in cold wars, and I have no idea why we’re at some kind of weird, undeclared war with Venezuela. I don’t get that. I’m most mystified of all by our relationship with Russia. I don’t know why Russia needs to be our enemy. I think it’s bizarre. I don’t think it helps the United States at all. It’s really hurt us. The Ukraine war has really hurt the United States and the primacy of the US Dollar.

And in a lot of ways, we should be getting along with more people. That’s what I think, because I think it’s good for us to have allies. On the other hand, your alliances should never drive you into actions that don’t help you. You should never put the lives of your own citizens at risk on behalf of another country.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But what if Trump says Iran must not have a nuclear bomb? That’s what he said publicly in your direction?

The Limits of Presidential Power

TUCKER CARLSON: I think a better way to say it is we don’t want Iran to have a bomb. That reflects how I feel. I don’t want Iran to have a bomb. I don’t want anyone to have a bomb. I’m kind of against nuclear weapons, as Trump is and has said many times. He’s very upset by the destructive power of nuclear weapons.

But “we won’t allow something to happen” suggests power that no man has. No president of any country has the power, no human being has the power to control the future. The future is a series of hopes and unknowns over which we have very limited control. And it’s important to say that out loud. I am not God. I can do my best, and that’s all I can do. I cannot determine future events. I don’t care what my title is. I don’t care how big my army is. The future is a series of hopes and unknowns, period.

And I say that now. I’ve said that to the president. He’s not the first president I’ve said that to. It’s just a fact. And the way that leaders get into trouble is by imagining that their desires are the same as commands. “I want you to do this” is a valid thing to say. “I will do everything in my power to make you do this.” Fine. “I am going to control what you do” is impossible.

So the bottom line is we don’t have the power to deter. I wish we did. We don’t. No country does. We do not have the power to determine whether or not Iran has the bomb. That’s beyond our power. That’s not a pro Iranian statement. It’s not an anti Israel or anti American world.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You have the power to attack militarily.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly. That’s the power. You have the power to attack. Take out the nuclear sites you hope. And if that’s the course you’re choosing, then it becomes a very specific conversation about your military capabilities. What would it take to take those out? What would it take for them to rebuild them? What would it take for them to buy a nuclear weapon from, say, Pakistan or North Korea? I mean, there are all kinds of ways to get nuclear weapons.

All I’m saying is any wise course of action begins with a sober and honest assessment of your own power. What am I capable of doing? How much power do I actually have? And when you lie to yourself about how much power you actually have, you get into very serious trouble. That’s called hubris. And it’s the downfall of every empire. It’s the destruction of every great man. It’s why you sleep with your assistant. You’re like, “I deserve this. No one will find out.”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Trump said, I mean, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you tracking with me here?

On Apologies and Disagreements

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah. Trump said you apologized to him on the phone. Is that true?

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, no, no, I will say this. I mean, I don’t. Yeah, great. I don’t care. I really like Trump. I campaign for Trump. I just to say it again, I agree with Trump. I have agreed with Trump on the issues. I’d be happy. I am. I’m the first to apologize because I am the most mindful of my limits and my own absurdities and the nonsense that I have spouted over the years. I don’t think I’m God. And so I’m happy to apologize. And you can ask anyone who knows me, I’m an apologizer.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So you’re apologizing now? Publicly.

TUCKER CARLSON: I apologize for – I didn’t attack Trump then. I disagreed with him. And I said how I wasn’t – I don’t think anything that would warrant an apology, but that he talks publicly.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: About you to other journalists and it goes around the world. I mean, this shows your power. No, power.

TUCKER CARLSON: Power. Maybe I should stop Iran from having the bomb. Since I have so much power. I’ll just will it into creation. No, I don’t think I have any power at all. I mean, I just.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Why would the president talk about you if he has no power? So, I mean, well, I don’t even know what, you know, power. Power. In terms of that it hurts him if you talk publicly and that you criticize him.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not attacking him, but I would.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Say, well, you have a different opinion on Iran, Israel, I mean, I’ll tell.

The Power of Truth

TUCKER CARLSON: You what does have power and has nothing to do with me. The truth. The truth has power. And the truth – you know what the truth is because you can see it in the reaction of people when you say it. And I don’t always know what the truth is, but I can see in people’s reactions. If you say something that’s true, it hits differently. For good or bad. You can see it when you say it.

If you say – if I assess like if I knew what your true weaknesses were, and I don’t. But if I did and I said them out loud, if I gave voice to them, I articulated them, I could. You would be wounded by it if I said it. And the same with me. If you knew my heart and you knew what was really wrong with me. And you said it out loud.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Oh, so do you think Trump was wounded because you said from your perspective.

TUCKER CARLSON: The truth, the power comes from telling the truth. And you can tell who’s telling the truth because those people aren’t afraid. People who lie are afraid. And I look at the leaders, especially on your continent, which I can’t overstate. I mean, my ancestors are from Europe, but I love Europe. I spent a lot of year in Europe. And I look at your leaders, Starmer, your absurd leader in Germany, all these little tiny people.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You mean Friedrich Merz or you mean Olaf Scholz? We have a new leader now.

TUCKER CARLSON: I follow it and I know that both of them, I would say all. I don’t want to single anybody out because I consider them all midgets, but more who they’re.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But Trump likes him. Friedrich Merz. They have a good connection.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who knows what Trump thinks of him. I’m just saying he’s absurd.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Why?

On German Sovereignty and Foreign Troops

TUCKER CARLSON: Because if you think that the answer to Germany’s many and growing problems is fighting a war with Russia, you’re an absurd human being if you can’t even defend your own. First of all, if you’re allowing foreign troops on your soil, you have no self respect at all. There are 35, 33, 35,000 American troops on German soil. They’ve been there for 80 years.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I would say, what are they doing there? What would we have done without US Troops? I would say, I mean, what are you talking about? Well, they saved us.

TUCKER CARLSON: The Soviet Union fell in the summer of 1991. You tell me what American troops are saving you from American troops. And I love American troops. I am American, okay? I’m not against American troops. I know a lot of American troops. I’m merely saying foreign troops from another nation on your soil is degrading. It’s totally degrading. And that is a basic fact that everyone knows.

One of the reasons we had a revolution in this country and threw off the colonial yoke of England was because British troops were stationed on our soil, dating our daughters, degrading us. And that is a very basic fact that has been consistent through all history. When you have foreign soldiers on your soil, you do not have sovereignty. And it’s very hard to have self respect.

And the fact that no one in Germany can say, that no one in Germany can say, “wait a second, Russia got eliminated in 1947 by the United States, Great Britain and Stalin and we’ve never reconstituted it.” The heart of Germany. We’re so embarrassed. And I’m saying this as someone who loves the Germanic people. I am a Germanic person. I don’t understand how any German leader could put up with the level of humiliation that Germany has put up with for 80 years.

There’s no one living in Germany who’s responsible for the crimes of the 1930s and 40s. I don’t understand why you’re continuing to pay reparations, continuing to allow your country to be occupied. I don’t understand why you don’t assert sovereignty. And the truth is the German Germanic peoples, and I’m including, you know, the Dutch and the Scandinavians and a lot of the English as sure you know all Germanic. It’s all Germanic. They are what makes Europe great. Actually. They’re the hardest working, the smartest, the tidiest, the cleanest, the most punctual. Those are values that I think are important.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Actually.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t mock those. Those are real. I don’t know how people who did everything that Germanic peoples did could allow themselves to be degraded and could internalize the hate and allow it to become self hate. And whenever you bring – even now I’m talking to you, I can tell it’s making you uncomfortable.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I’m saying, no, I don’t have self. It’s like I don’t have self hate.

TUCKER CARLSON: But what happened to Prussia? I don’t understand. That’s Berlin. How could you allow a foreign power to say you can no longer have a region? And no one in the subsequent years has ever said, “wait a second, this is our country. We’ll call our regions whatever we want to call them. We’re going to call this Prussia and we’re going to boot out foreign troops.” Doesn’t mean we’re going to invade anyone or be invaded. We are a great country. So any leader who doesn’t say that has my contempt. That’s what I’m saying.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: If we talk about situation, oh, he’s a Nazi. No, no, I’m not a Nazi.

TUCKER CARLSON: I hate the Nazis.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: If we talk about the situation right now, I would say that many Germans are happy that there is American troops on the ground. That’s where they are.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’ve been want.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, they’re afraid. There’s people who are afraid of Russia and of Russian troops attacking.

On German Culture and Immigration

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m sure your whole country’s afraid of Russia and Russians. That’s the sad thing. But you’re not afraid of millions of migrants who are wrecking your country. And it’s a kind of weird masochism with the Germans. And it bothers me because they don’t deserve it because they’re inherently impressive and have been for thousands since they took down Rome. Who took down Rome? The Germanic tribes. Because they’re amazing people. I don’t think they should sack Rome.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I’m not saying that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think what happened obviously in your country in 80 years, disgusting. I hate all that. Of course I hate all that. It’s anti-Christian, anti-Semitic. I hate everything about it. However, that doesn’t mean that your culture is worthless or that you should give it up to people from—

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Nobody says that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Africa. Like, what are you doing? And it’s wrecking your country. And no one can say anything about it. What it does is like, “Oh, you’re a Nazi,” but what a Nazi? I’m a German. I want Germany for Germans. Like, why is that bad? To say, well, has a background, dinner with a German. And I’m like, what the hell is going on? Why are you letting all these people in your country to live on the street, rape people, trash your country. They’re like, they can’t talk about it. They get so like, “Shut up.”

On Elon Musk and the AfD

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Elon Musk was talking a lot about it, like during the election. So he was in favor of the AfD during the election. He was campaigning for—

TUCKER CARLSON: You seem so weak to me. How about—

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Do you have contacts to politicians in Germany? AfD politicians?

TUCKER CARLSON: Not really. No. I’m just not.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What does it mean, “not really”? So you have—

TUCKER CARLSON: No, it’s because I’ve met people. I just travel a lot. Right. But in general, it’s not about AfD or social damage or any specific party or politician. It’s about a mindset that—look, we abhor things. A government calling itself German run by a guy who wasn’t even German did. That’s disgusting. There are certain lessons to learn from that, obvious lessons which we seem to have forgotten, by the way. But whatever. There are certain lessons I think that’s important and great. I’d never make apologies for the Nazis. My gosh. But you should also never make apologies for German culture. For the long thousand year history of the not really country, but region, multi-thousand year history of it. Like the Germanic peoples are great. Compared to what? Compared to who? Like you have allowed them in a senior school system. As you know, I’m sure you went through the brainwashing where they’re like, you spend a year learning how you should hate yourself and your people.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Not really.

TUCKER CARLSON: Something happened to you guys because you’re so—I’ve never met a more masochistic people. And here’s the problem with it. It offends me. I’m not German, I don’t live there. But it offends me because it is dangerous. Because if you convince someone to hate himself, and the world has convinced Germans to hate themselves, they really hate themselves. They have weird sex, obviously, as a result. But that’s not the real threat. The real threat is if you hate yourself, you’re probably not going to love me. Actually, it creates a kind of hostile—people who hate themselves are actually hostile toward other people.

And I just think whether it’s AfD—I don’t care who it is. The first German leader who stands up and says, “I’m totally opposed to the Nazis. Obviously that’s not even a conversation. That was 80 years ago. Are there any Nazis left? No, it’s nothing to do with the Nazis. I’m pro-German. I think we should be proud of our history, our culture, our language. If you’re not German, this is the indigenous population of the region. The indigenous population. Because if you’re not part of that, you can leave.” I don’t know why that’s embarrassing. If someone stood up in Beijing, China and said, “We’re proud of the millennia-long history of Chinese civilization, culture, language. If you’re not Chinese, I don’t know if you should be living here.” Would you call that person a racist or a Nazi? I’d be like, that sounds kind of legitimate. I get it.

On Darryl Cooper and Historical Interpretation

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Because you talked about our history of German history. You hosted Darryl Cooper.

TUCKER CARLSON: Darryl Cooper. He’s so tainted.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Highly, I would say controversial historian, not highly controversial.

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s one of the most popular historians on the entire—

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, he claimed that the Nazis never intended to kill 6 million Jews.

TUCKER CARLSON: He certainly didn’t claim that.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, he said, well, I did.

TUCKER CARLSON: Propaganda on the Internet.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I was listening to it. He said it was just an accident.

TUCKER CARLSON: And he said, sitting right there, let—

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Let me quote, that the Nazis simply didn’t know how to care for that many people.

TUCKER CARLSON: He did not say the Holocaust was an accident. He did not say that. He was speaking very specifically. And he may be wrong, by the way. I don’t know and I’m not endorsing it. I’m just saying the point that he was making was a discrete, specific point about the treatment of prisoners in Poland and Russia, the east, during the war. He said, and I don’t know if it’s true or not, but it certainly wasn’t denying the Holocaust or coming out in favor of Hitler. He was saying that the Germans rounded up all these people and let them die. And you could argue whether that’s a greater crime or less criminal, whatever. But that is not denying the Holocaust and is not pro-Nazi.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, if he says—

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me finish. A small number of propagandists on the Internet decided to paint him as a Nazi. Now, why did they do that? Because there are all kinds of lessons that we drew from World War II that are false. And why does that matter? It matters because the Western order, the post-war order, is based on those assumptions. And one of the key assumptions, and it’s destroyed your country, and I hope you reverse it, is that it is a threat to the world when a homogenous European, white, Christian country exists. That’s just not true. Okay? And it’s on the basis of that assumption. But if he says your country in Western Europe has been destroyed by mass migration.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But okay, but that’s a different topic. But if he says that Nazis simply didn’t know how to take care for that many people. I mean, he wasn’t talking about the Holocaust, dude.

TUCKER CARLSON: So that’s just a fact. And you can ask him, and he’s been asked a million times, and his answer is really, really clear. I’m not denying that the Germans rounded up and murdered Jews. What? I’m not.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, it’s about the plan. So he said it was more like the Wannsee Conference. No, I’m not reading. I was listening to it. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: By the way, I could also say I’m not responsible for Darryl Cooper’s views.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, absolutely. No, I’m just—

TUCKER CARLSON: I just interviewed the president of Iran. I’m not a Shiite. You know what I mean? And you can ask Darryl Cooper, who’d be happy to take your call. I’m sure what I’m interested in is the current state of Europe. And as a lifelong traveler to Europe who has family in Europe whose ancestors are from Europe, who believes in European Christian culture and has watched it be destroyed over the last 120 years, since 1914, I’m wondering, like, how the hell did this happen and how do we fix it? Because I really care about it. Okay.

And I think that one of the factors, not the only factor, but one of the factors in the destruction of Europe was this false lesson that our leaders internalized. And you were clearly taught at school that a homogenous country in Western Europe is a threat to world peace. That is an actual assumption that I think everyone in Europe has just sort of imbibed. And I think it is factually false and incredibly destructive. And it’s the reason that Europe is increasingly non-European.

And I find it so wild that you’re not allowed to say that, that it’s considered somehow Nazi or racist to say, like, what percentage of Germany will be German? And the answer in a hundred years. And the answer is probably less than half. Is that okay with you? This is the indigenous population of the country. Then the question is like, “Well, I mean, we’re all Germans.” This is crazy. There’s no other part of the world that is held to this absurd fantasy standard where it doesn’t matter if the majority of the country is actually from that country whose ancestors built the country, created the language, the culture, the music, the art. It’s just like, “Shut up, Nazi.”

And where does that come from? That’s where we are right now. Everyone is totally afraid. I am just so proudly anti-Nazi that I don’t feel guilty saying it. It’s just true. And why can’t we say it? We can’t say it because of that lesson that we learned. And it’s a false lesson. So, like, there are lots of false lessons that we learned from history. It’s not the only one. But it’s important to tell the truth, don’t you think? Or no one in the media thinks it’s important to tell the truth. The second you say something that’s true, they’re like, “Shut up. Look, he was denying the Holocaust.” No, he wasn’t.

On Putin and the Ukraine Interview

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I want to talk about Putin, about Ukraine. Putin, Russia. You interviewed, how was—

TUCKER CARLSON: Was interesting? It was really interesting. I mean, I’ve never been particularly interested in Russia. I was interested in the Soviet period. Wrote a lot about it, studied in college. But post-Soviet Russia, I’m an expert and didn’t. I had no plans to do it. And it was really the Ukraine war. It was my frustration at the total blockade against all information from Russia. I just felt like it was important for Americans to hear from the guy they were fighting. In fact, most Americans didn’t even know we were waging a war against Russia. They’re like, “Oh, no, we’re supporting Ukraine.” No, we’re fighting a war against Russia. Now maybe we should be, maybe we shouldn’t be, but we should at least know what we’re doing. So that’s why I went. I was infuriated for the first part of the interview because I thought he was manhandling me.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: He was talking like, 45 minutes, like—

TUCKER CARLSON: Just wore me back.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Did you try to—did you try to get into it—

TUCKER CARLSON: Or like, I tried for like, one pushback, and then I was like, I can’t win this. We’re speaking through an interpreter, and it’ll just get garbled, and I’ll say half a sentence, and they’ll say half a sentence. And I was just like, I’m just going to let him go.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, the historical lecture at the beginning, right.

TUCKER CARLSON: The historical lecture that I was not qualified to assess at all. I don’t know the history of the Rus. I was pretty ignorant, actually, about Russian, Ukrainian history. I know a lot post-October 1917, but from October 1917 till August of ’91, I have a pretty good handle on it. But before that, I really don’t. So I was highly annoyed. I thought, here I show up with Putin, and he’s just treating me like a bitch. He’s just, like, rolling right over me. And then I thought to myself, there’s nothing I can do about it. And this was going through my head at the time. And just let him talk. It’ll be interesting, actually, to get this on tape. I don’t fully understand the importance of it, but I’m doing this not for myself or to prove that I’m virtuous. And all these reporters want to go, I’ve done this myself when I was a kid. You go on these interviews with some bad person and you’re like, really? The point of the interview is be like, “I’m a good person. Why aren’t you a good person?” I don’t care if you think I’m a good person. I care if my wife and children and my friends think that it was.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But do you think you were critical enough with him or like, that’s exactly—

TUCKER CARLSON: The kind of low IQ, low IQ question headspace I was talking about I once occupied. And hopefully it’ll grow out of where you feel like the point of the interview is to show, like, “He’s bad, I’m good.” And it’s like, do you really need for a Western audience to make the case that Putin is bad? I really want to be the first American journalist to make the revolutionary statement that Putin is bad.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I—Putin’s bad, you’re bad. I wouldn’t say. I wouldn’t say it’s about how bad he is, but I mean about what he did in Ukraine. Yeah, well, but, I mean, so do you—

TUCKER CARLSON: What would be the point of that? To show that?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I would have been interested to see his reaction, like, if he—if he believes him.

Putin Interview and International Relations

TUCKER CARLSON: A boy. You can go back and look at it. It’s like 27 hours long or something. I watched it all. So I thought it was interesting. I’ve interviewed a lot of, as you have, a lot of heads of state and just interviewed one the other day from this building. And there’s really a limit to what you can get as the truth. And so I think, and I’ve thought about this for many years, so I’ve thought about it a lot. And I think the best you’re going to get really is the person feeling more comfortable in talking. I think what you want is, I think people become less guarded the more they talk. That has been my experience, just talking to people my whole life. And if you can calm him down a little bit, just let him go.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But Putin is a bit different. No, I mean, he was an intelligence officer. He knows how to control emotions.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re all in. You know, that’s what I’m not defending Putin, who I think has done a great job for Russia. Much better job than any German leader, that’s for sure. Your country is going down, Russia’s going up. You should be mad at your own leaders. You’re mad at Putin instead.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, but.

TUCKER CARLSON: Makes me laugh.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Putin is a war criminal instead.

TUCKER CARLSON: War criminal, right. Angela Merkel wrecked your country through mass migration. She’s not a criminal. How does that work? She literally wrecked your country. It will not recover in your lifetime or mine. But she’s cool because. Why?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I didn’t say she’s cool, but I.

TUCKER CARLSON: Mean, he’s a criminal.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But you.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m like, he let millions of people into your country, I would say, and it hasn’t worked. So like, so whatever. All criminals, I kind of agree with that. But let me just say this. The intel, he’s an intel officer. Putin’s smart. He’s Slavic. I’m not Slavic. It is a different way of thinking. That’s just true. I know you spend a lot of time in Slavic countries. It’s hard for the non Slav to kind of understand the way that people think. Different cultures think differently. I don’t know if we’re allowed to admit this or not. Even Finland, they think differently. And so it’s hard to know exactly. Right. And there are many layers of deception.

He was a KGB officer in Germany. I think that’s actually a really important part of his biography that people misread. But whatever. Here’s the point. See, it’s no different from any other long serving leader in that what he says and does is largely heavily determined by the imperatives of the intel agencies. He runs they’re all intel officers. Actually, he’s been in there for 25 years. If he. He was a KGB officer in East Germany. Okay, got it. The truth is, he’s been running the country for 25 years. So they all think the same. They all do. I mean, you’ve interviewed a bunch of these guys.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Why do you think he talked to you?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I mean, my gosh, I didn’t even understand the history of the ruse. I can’t divine his motives. I think he talked to me because. I don’t know. I mean, I would imagine that it’s. It’s crazy. I’m not. Whatever. I’m not mad at Putin. Never have been.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I am.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, you should be mad at your own leaders. You know, Putin didn’t let in millions of immigrants, Germany and Haiti.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I mean, his soldiers killed friends of mine, colleagues when I was in Ukraine.

War and Leadership Responsibility

TUCKER CARLSON: Bad friends die in war. They were ordered into war by American leaders. So I had a good friend die in the Iraq war, and so am I mad at Saddam Hussein? No. I’m mad because he wouldn’t have been there. It’s a guy from Washington, D.C. northwest Washington, D.C. and he’s in Baghdad. Why was he in Baghdad? He’s in Baghdad because George W. Bush was pushed in supporting a war.

I think what we’re being trained to do, and you clearly are the victim of this is quite a sophisticated operation, is to channel people’s frustration into directions that serve the people who caused the frustration in the first place. Your country’s a mess because your leaders suck. That’s the fact you’re mad about that. So they take your anger and they’re like, “Oh, no, it’s Putin’s fault. It’s Putin’s fault.” Okay, got it.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I disagree. I disagree.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s incontestable.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Not really, because it’s two different things. One is the immigration crisis. The other thing is what happened in Russia. And I can see it from different perspectives. But I wanted to talk to you about Putin a little bit longer.

Journalistic Responsibility

TUCKER CARLSON: So, look, I think from my. I’m just incorrigibly American. I’m interested in the world, but I’m really just American. And I always try to remember that I just have an American point of view, and everything about me is American. And from my perspective, my people, the population of the United States and the West, America needed to hear from the guy they were fighting. And you can hate him all you want. I don’t care if you hate Putin. I’m not emotionally connected to any of this. He’s not my president. But you hate him or love him, you’re also allowed to love him if you want.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I mean, I would love to interview him, obviously, because we’re both journalists.

TUCKER CARLSON: We should hear from people and allow our audience, our readers or viewers, to make up their own minds. Because once again, they’re not slaves, they’re citizens. And they have absolutely an absolute right to know what their government is doing with their money in their name. And that’s our job, is to bring that information to them.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I agree with you on that. It’s super important to hear what Putin has to say.

TUCKER CARLSON: The only reason we are serving our audience, that’s it. And most journalists lose track of that. And the hate I got, not that I ever talked to other journalists, because there’s no one dumber or more tiresome than a journalist. I hate to say that that’s true. You’re the first journalist I’ve talked to in a long time.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: And how dumb do you think I am?

Germany’s Energy Crisis

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just upset about what’s happened to Germany. It really matters. It really matters. You can’t allow your allies to destroy your main source of cheap energy and then pretend they didn’t do it just because you were taught in school to hate yourself because the second world.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you cannot allow your allies to destroy your main source of energy, your economy, and move BASF out of your country, because this is so bonkers what you’re allowing NATO to do.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Just to understand this. Just to understand. So you still think that the US is behind the Nord Stream attack?

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a distinction without a difference. So what we know is from our CIA, which has announced it, and I don’t think the German government has denied it. It wasn’t Putin who blew up his own pipeline.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Okay, well, it looks like the Ukrainian did it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so what is Ukraine? Is it a sovereign country? No, it exists at the pleasure of NATO. And that would be two main countries, the United States and Germany, its most important NATO ally. Now, there is a provision in the NATO agreement, which is often invoked in conversation that says when a NATO ally is attacked, the other nations of NATO, the signatories to the treaty, defend that nation.

So here you have a situation where Germany was attacked in the largest act of industrial sabotage in human history. It was also the largest man made CO2 emission in history, by the way. I thought we were worried about the carnival. Apparently not. And the United States did that. Now, whether they did it through the Norwegians or through the Ukrainians, it doesn’t matter. The Biden administration said they were going to do it and they did it. And they never deny it.

And Germany sat there and allowed its main NATO ally to attack it. And then whenever you bring it up, as I have many times, like, “Hey, German guy, I’m having dinner with, what was that? Why did you allow your NATO ally to destroy your main source of cheap energy?” And they’re like, “Oh, shut up.” And it’s like, get some self respect. Demand baseline treatment that any human being would demand. Don’t lie to me. Don’t sabotage my economy. Don’t pretend to be my ally when you’re actually hurting me.

The world will be a lot safer and happier and more prosperous. Germany leaves Europe. Germany is Europe. That’s my position as a non European. It’s like, that is Europe. And if Germany dies, its economy dies and it’s dying. As you know, everyone’s lying about it, but it is. Then Europe is gone. And Europe is the light of the world. It’s the light of the world. Everything from the printing press to democracy, everything that we care about comes from Europe and it’s lost confidence in itself.

And why is it up to me, an American who doesn’t even speak German, to be like, “Oh, Germany, please don’t. Don’t commit suicide.” Why? Because I think it’s so important for the world and it makes you so uncomfortable when I’m saying no. Oh, is this not this stuff?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: No, not at all, not at all. I’m just listening. I just don’t want to interrupt you all the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: If I had a German accent every, and I wish I did every. If I spoke like Henry Kissinger, every time I spoke, I would go like this. I’m just listening.

Trump’s Approach to Russia

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Talking about Putin. After your interview, I mean, it’s been now. Thank you. Yeah, please. So it’s been one and a half years now since your interview with Putin, and now we see a shift of Donald Trump. Is it a shift? I mean, the 50 days he gives Putin to react on a ceasefire and saying if that’s not happening, we put on tariffs on countries doing business with Russia. What’s your opinion on that?

TUCKER CARLSON: This is Thursday in mid July. I’ve lost track of what the date is. I don’t know when this is going to air. This is a moving target, you know, there. This is being, is evolving as we’re speaking. So I’m not privy to any details that you’re not privy to, but I don’t know where this is going, but I would say that the outcome. Look, we need to be honest about where this is going to wind up in the. Because there are two kind of two places they could wind up. One is with Russian victory. They’ve already won in a lot of important ways. They’re always going to win because.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I would disagree on that because.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean the population is 100 million more people.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, this is an argument. But wait, if you say they’ve won, that means they reached all their targets like the four regions plus Crimea. They also wanted to be in

The Ukraine War and Nuclear Escalation

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s a totally fair point. What is winning Ukraine? It’s hard to imagine Ukraine is getting all of its land back that it had February three years ago. This has clearly destroyed Ukraine. I think it’s really hurt Russia as well. We can’t get a clear number on casualties. Everyone lies about it. All the people tell you how much they love Ukraine, and my heart bleeds for the Ukrainians, can’t tell you how many Ukrainians have died. They don’t care enough to find out. So they’re frauds and they have blood on their hands, in my opinion.

But here’s the point: How do you get out of this? I think it serves the interests of a lot of European leaders, including your leader, to continue it as long as possible because it gives their domestic populations an enemy to focus their hate on. So as their economies are dying, young people can’t afford homes, energy costs in Europe, particularly in Germany, but also France and Spain, also the UK are so much higher than they were 30 years ago. The whole people’s standard of living is declining really fast. As you know, people are not having children. That’s the clearest sign of civilizational collapse, obviously.

So there’s a lot of pent up rage. And in Germany, a lot of it, as I’ve said 10 times, is self hatred. There’s a lot of rage in Europe and I feel it every time I’m there. And so the Russia Ukraine war is a perfect safety relief valve for European leaders to be like, “No, no, it’s Putin’s fault.” And you watch a kind of sad response in the UK when Starmer started to say, “No, we’re going to fight a new war against Russia now.” They can’t beat Russia. Russia could stomp the UK in one day. It’s a joke, okay? They could nuke it. They could do it with hypersonic missiles. It’s a tiny island. I don’t know if you’ve been there.

In real life, in military terms, it’s not a real fight between the UK and Russia. Why is he saying that? And why would beating Russia be on the even list of things to do if you’re British? Because your people have been betrayed by you. And turning their rage eastward towards some guy who’s got nothing to do with anything happening in the UK or Germany is the fastest way to keep your population in their narcotic haze.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Okay, totally disagree on that, but it’s not important.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree that that’s obviously true.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: No, it’s not, because I mean, what’s the trust in Russia? Well, if you talk to intelligence people, if you talk to the military, talk to the intelligence, they’re not liars.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, you know, I need to check in with German intelligence more often to find out.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I mean, German intelligence, the Nord Stream pipeline. Do they know you’ve been talking intelligence?

TUCKER CARLSON: What did they say about the Nord Stream pipeline?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I think they’re pretty sure that the Ukrainians did it. Ukrainians did it. But let’s now talk about the rest. Well, wait, let’s talk about the threat. I mean, the threat and if Russia could also attack NATO countries. I mean, that’s the argument.

NATO Expansion and Russian Concerns

TUCKER CARLSON: From Russia will attack NATO countries if they keep poking them, for sure. So why would you want that? Why do you want Latvia to be vaporized?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So you think that NATO countries provoking Russia and that’s why they would attack.

TUCKER CARLSON: Putting Ukraine into NATO is insane. It doesn’t serve the interests of Ukraine.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But it’s not happening.

TUCKER CARLSON: The reason we had this war in the first place is because the vice president of the United States went to the Munich Security Conference, which I think is in your country. Munich is Munich. Prussia was eliminated, but not Munich. It’s still there. And it was in Munich that February. And Kamala Harris, who’s – I’m not attacking her. She says what she’s told to say, says to Zelensky, any press conference, “We want you in NATO.” Russia’s greatest fear. Or check the tape. Russia’s greatest fear as articulated by Putin. But not just Putin. Also Yeltsin has been that Western American, NATO’s America, American weapons, nuclear weapons would be on its eastern border.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Why wouldn’t Scholz, Macron, everybody was against Ukraine being in NATO. They were always blocking it. Even Merkel before blocked it.

TUCKER CARLSON: So I’m highly aware of that.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: What they really think about it is another question.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I think Merkel really opposed it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course, I know that. But I also know that days before this war broke out, before Russia rolled across the border into Ukraine, the US Government said, officially, “We want Ukraine in NATO,” and that’s what started this war. Putin said that. Immediately afterward, he gave a speech, which I refer you to, which is really interesting. We’re not allowed to listen to Putin because everything he says is a lie or something.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I think this decision was made already before. I mean, we can okay that it.

TUCKER CARLSON: May have been made already before the threat. From the Russian perspective, and to acknowledge someone else’s perspective is not to endorse that perspective. It’s merely to understand it, which is a critical component of decision making. From the Russian perspective, the threat is NATO moving eastward. Putin has been president since 2000. The president that – well, with whatever, but has been in charge since 2000. He has said that to every American president. Yeltsin said it before him.

From the Russian perspective, they gave up their empire. Their empire collapsed. They ran out of money. But what never changed was the Russian insistence that you not put nuclear weapons on our border. And I think every country but Germany, which has American troops on its border, should get them out immediately. Every country, every normal country is like, “That’s not acceptable.” How could you allow your rival to put nuclear weapons on your border? We would not accept that in the United States. If China puts nuclear weapons in Tijuana, Mexico, that would be a crisis for us. The Soviet Union put nuclear weapons in Havana, Cuba, 90 miles from the United States in 1962, and we almost had a thermonuclear war over it.

So that’s a legitimate perspective. That’s a legitimate concern. From the Russian perspective, no matter how pro NATO you are or anti Russian you are, you can understand that’s a real thing. That’s not a bullshit thing. It’s not like they woke up in the morning. They’re like, “We need to expand the territory of the world’s largest country. Let’s take Poland.” Do you really think that? Do you really think the Russians want Germany? Do you think that, do you think there’s a threat that they’re going to invade Germany?

The Baltic States and Nuclear War

PAUL RONZHEIMER: No, I think there is a threat that they might invade or try and test Estonia, for example, or other Baltic states after, you know, they’ve done that with Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you’re willing to risk nuclear war in the defense of Estonia.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I’m not saying this. I’m just saying there is a threat of it, that they might say.

TUCKER CARLSON: What I’m saying is we are now on the cusp of a nuclear conflict between the United States and Russia. It emerged three days ago that the President of the United States and the – I don’t know if you call him President Zelensky, who’s in charge of Ukraine, had a conversation in which they discussed missiles that could hit Moscow.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You’re talking about the Financial Times report.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where Trump has not been denied.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: By the White House. So if there was a Financial Times report that Putin and Xi were discussing missiles that could hit Washington.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So let’s talk about this report. Yeah, that would.

TUCKER CARLSON: As an American, that would lead me to believe we’re on the brink of a conflict. And by the way, we need to go to war with anyone who’s threatening our capital city with missiles. Are you joking?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So let’s talk about this conversation.

TUCKER CARLSON: Has there ever been a report that Putin is targeting any German city with missiles?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I mean, there’s constant reports and no Russian TV.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me just.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, and Russian TV. Well, you asked me a question or not? So there’s many reports in Russian TV actually saying we have to attack Berlin. You know, we have to nuke them. I mean, it’s not Putin himself, but it’s a propaganda TV.

Putin’s Position and Leadership Dynamics

TUCKER CARLSON: And they’re making my point, which is, of the many kind of contemptibly childish, truly contemptibly childish assumptions people have about the world in international relations, the one that drives me craziest is that there are absolute leaders. There are no absolute leaders in this world or in your home. Every leader, every leader that included Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong, every leader that includes MBS in Saudi Arabia, MBZ in Emirates. Doesn’t matter what you call yourself or what, you know, whether you’re a king, it doesn’t matter. You have constituencies, and you have to balance those constituencies. And that’s true for Putin, too.

And I’m just telling you what anybody who knows anything about contemporary Russia will tell you, which is Putin is very mad at the West. He’s less mad at the west than anyone else who might replace him.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Let’s talk.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s the truth. Putin. There’s no evidence that Putin wants to bomb Berlin. You know that. Or London or Washington. But there’s a lot of evidence that Ukraine and the United States are thinking about openly talking about bombing Moscow. And I’m just saying, whether you think that’s a good idea or not, that’s nuclear war, okay? That’s nuclear war. What does that mean?

Trump’s Reported Conversation with Zelensky

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Okay, let’s talk about this report. So it was a discussion between Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky. And it’s reported that Trump asked Zelensky, “Could you target Moscow? Could you target St. Petersburg?” Is that the Trump you know? Are you surprised?

TUCKER CARLSON: I wasn’t. If that conversation is real, I’m shocked by the recklessness of it. I’m shocked by the recklessness of it. I have four children. I have a vested interest in this country and in this world. And anyone who takes the threat of nuclear war lightly is my enemy. And that would include most world leaders. How do you consider them enemies for that? This implicates me and you and every person in this room. And we sit back and you think I’m some sort of like hippie peacenik or something or some left wing green or something, American right winger. But I’ve got children. And if you’re risking the future of the world and their lives.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But what’s against you, Mr. Carlson? What’s interesting here is from my perspective is that Trump was more or less always on your side. In the past months, he was criticizing Zelensky, he was talking to Putin, he said very friendly words about Putin. So he was never really pressuring. And this has changed in the past week. So why is that? I mean, couldn’t it be that I can’t even.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t accept the premise of the question because I don’t know that it’s true. Why I would say, well, you’re showing up at my house on a day when we are literally right in the middle of this and I don’t understand exactly what’s going on. I don’t know how much of it is true. I will just say this. In our government, as in every government, I was trying to explain this about Putin or any world leader. There are constituencies that are fighting all the time to gain supremacy, to gain control.

And in Washington, there are the biggest battle in Washington. This has been going on for over 20 years, since 9/11 has been between the realists and the neocons or whatever you want to call them, people who believe in preserving the American empire through force, who think you can bring democracy and a better lights are killing people and those who doubt that. But let’s talk about facts. Mr. Garcia, the situation is ongoing. So I don’t know what the hell is going on.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But wait, there’s one fact. Trump said you have 50 days. He said it to Putin. Otherwise there will be sanctions. There’s also a fact that he said, okay, sanctions.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, yeah, for the first time, we’re going to levy some sanctions on Russia.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I’m just saying that what Trump said. Well, he said that for every country doing business with Russia, secondary sanctions. Yeah, yeah. 100% terrorists.

The Limits of American Power

TUCKER CARLSON: That means if Russia. Because Russia’s, of course, economy is not actually. It’s quite a robust manufacturing economy, but it’s still a petro. It’s oil and gas economy to some large extent, mineral economy. If the Indians and the Chinese, the two biggest players of oil, period, but certainly from Russia, if we catch them buying Russian oil, we will sanction them for that. That is the. That’s my understanding of the threat.

You know, I have no idea if that will happen. I mean, we’re in a period where there are a lot of abrupt changes. I think if the United States government were to attempt to do something like that, we would merely reveal, as we have consistently for the last 25 years, the limits of our power. And that, to me, is a big part of the tragedy since 9/11, because particularly the Iraq war, but also what we’ve done all around the world since then is that the second things become kinetic, the second you actually use force rather than just threaten force, and I would include sanctions as an expression of force. Sanctions are an act of violence, of course, against the civilian population mostly, but whatever. You reveal how powerless you really are.

You think, in other words, when you’re, you know, if you say to your kids, “If you do that, I will spank you.” Your child lives in fear of being spanked, and that will, one hopes, keep him on the straight. Never keep him from doing a bad thing. But when you actually spank a child, or if you ever spanked as a child, I don’t know if spanking is allowed in Germany, except sexually. But in a parental context, when you spank a child, the child feels the pain and then realizes, “I’ll survive this. It’s not as bad as you thought it was.”

And that was one of the stories that I hoped to tell when I was in Russia. We levied sanctions against Russia that have no precedent. We just, like, stole people, stuck people, had nothing to do with the Russian government, the oligarchs who had nothing to do with the invasion of Ukraine, some of whom opposed the invasion of Ukraine publicly. And we just stole their stuff. Billions of dollars worth of real estate and boats and airplanes. We stole it and called it sanctions. Well, talk about the end of the rule of law, but let me finish. And what was the net effect? Did Russia fall into dire poverty? No, but it looks fine.

Trump’s Frustration with Putin

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So we look weak that it looks like that. Your president is highly frustrated by Putin. That’s what he’s saying. He’s saying publicly that he’s on the phone with him, and then he comes back to his wife, to Melania, and he says, “Look, you know, I had a really good phone call with Putin.” And then she says, “Oh, really? He just bombed again, another city in Ukraine.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, well, there’s a war going on. Yeah, that’s what happens in war cities. But bomb. That’s why I’m against wars. But negotiations are really frustrating. They’re frustrating with your wife, they’re frustrating with Vladimir Putin. It’s frustrating because you don’t get everything you want.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But he changed his.

TUCKER CARLSON: While people get frustrated, they make threats. Do they make good on those threats?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I don’t know. Not always.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t make good on all my threats. Try not to make too many threats, but when I do, I don’t always make good on them. And that may be the case here. But I think it’s important to recognize that diplomacy is really difficult. That’s why it’s so rare. But when the option is nuclear war, it’s worth doing.

America’s Dwindling Options

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What are the options from your perspective right now?

TUCKER CARLSON: The United States is running out of options in Russia. Running out of options in Russia, because the truth is the Russian economy is not what we thought it was. And we were assured by some of the dumbest people on the planet who currently serve in the United States Senate, that Russia was merely, and I’m quoting now, “a gas station with nuclear weapons.” They somehow kind of never built St. Petersburg and Tolstoy and Dostoevsky didn’t exist, and they were just this, like, kind of desert nation with a lot of gas. And we. I mean, it was absurd.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Like the, The.

TUCKER CARLSON: So we underestimated and frankly just didn’t really understand the nature of the Russian economy, Russian civilization. And I’m not endorsing that economy or civilization. I’m just saying we didn’t understand what it was. And so we levied these sanctions on. We cut them off, kick them out of swift. And we, in the end, hurt ourselves more than we hurt Russia. We sent a very clear signal to the rest of the world. And you’re. You guys are implicated in this also in Germany and in Europe more broadly, because the US Dollar is relevant to you. Sorry. We sent a very clear message to everybody. Don’t hold your assets in dollars because they can be used as a political weapon. It was the dumbest thing I’ve ever seen. If you want to hurt yourself, do that. And I think it’s just been a tragedy.

So does that leave us with kind of like, what options does that leave us with? It doesn’t really. Russia, fundamentally, they don’t want everything they wanted. I’m not even sure what they wanted. They wanted the west to back off, but in some basic way, they won. And we have to acknowledge that. And it’s really hard for a. I don’t. I’m not in favor of Russia winning anything. I’m American. I want to win. But that. You can’t lie to yourself. They want. And so on the basis of in.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: In which way did they win?

TUCKER CARLSON: They took land and they don’t have to give it back. In short of bombing them with nuclear weapons, we can’t make them give it back. That’s called victory. And the victor gets to set not all the terms, but as Germany found out, a lot of the terms. So, okay, those are the rules. Those are the rules out of international law, but of life. The winner gets us at the terms. Again, not all the terms, but he gets more say than the loser does. And Ukraine is the loser.

Now, I feel sorry for Ukraine. I feel sorry for Ukrainians, who, like many populations around the world, have learned the hard lesson, which is you follow the kind of fickle, mercurial dictates of the US government and you get killed and nobody kind of runs to the rescue. You know, when Muammar Gaddafi, who was a bad guy, I’m not pro Gaddafi, but when he followed directions and gave up his weapons, mass destruction, we sent NATO in to kill him. Okay. So anyway, I feel sorry for the Ukrainians, but the truth is Zelensky, who I think is a legitimately bad person, but even if I loved him, doesn’t matter. He doesn’t get to set the terms because he didn’t win. And unless you start there, you’re not going to reach an outcome short of nuclear war, period. So you have to start this.

What Would Trump Do?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What would Trump do then?

TUCKER CARLSON: I have no idea what Trump will do. I hope that he listens to his own instincts. I hope that the guiding. This is what I really hope and for your leaders, too, in Europe. Let’s start with what could happen. Let’s assess the risk first. This is how I spend my money. It’s how I invest my money. It’s how I try to live my life. Start with the downside. If things went totally wrong, what would it look like? And in this case, the Earth’s population would be killed, billions of people would die.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But was this argument.

TUCKER CARLSON: But we’re not doing that. Let’s just. We’re not doing that. Anybody.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Mr. Carlson, with this argument, you could also say, okay, next country is the Baltics. The next one is Poland. And then Germany comes, and we could all say, okay, Russia won. We give you everything. I mean, this argument.

TUCKER CARLSON: So, okay, but let’s. Okay, let’s just be rational just for one second. I know Putin’s bad.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: And once he’s good aside, just to explain. So if it’s a threat that, for example, Putin would say, re. Nuke you would mean, okay, we give you all the land, then it means that it’s also. It’s not only Ukraine, it would be all the countries. So, I mean, this argument is very frustrating.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I agree. Let me just agree with you for the first time in this conversation by saying that it’s extremely frustrating to have to acknowledge that the people with the biggest weapons have more power than those without big weapons. Russia has more weapons than Latvia, therefore, in real life.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But Latvia is in with NATO, right?

TUCKER CARLSON: NATO, right. I get it. But I’m just saying I don’t want Russia to invade any country, including Ukraine. I was against that. I didn’t think it would happen, by the way. I was completely wrong. I went on television, I was like, “Oh, Putin will never do that.” Then he did it, like, two days later, made me look like an idiot, which I was. But I don’t want that to happen again. I personally don’t think they want Latvia. I don’t think it’s worth the trouble. They can barely control their own country. It’s the largest country in the world.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: They have a massive muscle. Maybe you do the same mistake as before. Ukraine. I could be completely wrong.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve been wrong many times. But what I’m not wrong about is that the consequence of this going south is nuclear war. And nothing is worse than that, including taking Latvia, including taking Germany, including taking the United States. None of which I think is going to happen. But if it does, it’s terrible. It’s not as bad as a nuclear war. So let’s start there. And anybody who can’t say that out loud, including your absurd leaders in Europe.

The Nuclear War Argument

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So your argument would be just to understand it, right? So your argument would be if there would be the risk of Russia nuking Germany, Latvia, whatever country in NATO, we should just say, “Okay, Putin, you love Dresden, here’s Dresden, and maybe parts of Berlin, we give it to you.”

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so funny that you’ve bought that lie.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Which lie?

TUCKER CARLSON: The lie that Russia has designs on Germany or the UK that’s literally the last thing. There’s no evidence.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I just take your argument and.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not look, the truth is there A million. I just realized I’m wearing German shoes.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Oh, throw them away quickly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Literally wearing Birkenstocks. I did that as a gesture of respect. I didn’t know this would be on camera, which is why I’m dressed so ludicrously. There are a lot of steps between here and there. All I’m saying is Russia won this particular war. You don’t want the war to metastasize. You want to get out. If you’re a pro Ukraine, which I’m not against Ukraine personally. You want to get out with minimal losses in Ukraine both to population, enough territory, and so start. Let’s work on the deal now. Let’s work on the deal. How do we get out with as little damage? Disruption to everybody. Germany, Ukraine, United States, Russia too. How do we get out with as little damage as possible? That’s called a negotiation. What you don’t want to do is torque up the rhetoric and the fear, dealing with paranoid Eastern Europeans, and they’re all paranoid, as with love.

The Question of Negotiations

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Putin doesn’t want to negotiate. I was in Istanbul when he was sending some, I don’t know, whatever minister.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it looked like, hey, you guys will believe anything.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I was there.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why was he dealing with Steve Witkoff the other day?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I mean, I was there.

TUCKER CARLSON: What does Putin want? He just wants to take over all of Europe. He’s Hitler.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Wait, let’s. Let’s stay. No, wait. Let’s stay with the negotiation. Let’s say. No, let’s stay with the negotiations. Ukraine blew up the north pipeline. Let’s stay with the negotiations. So I was in Istanbul when there was a negotiation happening. So in Ukraine sent a lot of, like, at least ministers and defense minister. And Putin sent people they were even laughing about in Russia and were saying, “Look, I mean, this doesn’t look like serious negotiations.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I don’t know if they were serious or not. There’s a dance that accompanies all negotiations. There was, I think, by all accounts, every account, a potential early settlement. Six months into this war, as you know, that was stopped by the Biden administration using its cutout Boris Johnson, the former prime minister of the UK in a contemptible, dishonest manner. And more than a million people died as a result of that. Russia was. I think I’ve never met anyone who disagrees with this, willing to negotiate a settlement. Maybe a settlement Ukraine wouldn’t want or NATO would.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You mean in March 2022?

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s exactly what we’re talking about.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah. March, April 2022. This. Yeah, the Boris Johnson story. And.

Nuclear War and Negotiation

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, that’s a real story. So look, there are plenty of head fakes. There’s a lot of lying, a lot of bluffing. In any negotiation, I’m willing to sell it for this, but actually, my real number’s that. I mean, that’s what negotiation is. Right? That’s why you have diplomats who sit down. I mean, the Vietnam War, which went on for 11 years, was… You know, the negotiations were on for years. It’s hard. But the option is nuclear war, so you can’t. You have to put that on a piece of paper and stick it to your refrigerator so you see it every single morning. If we fail, we all die.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, but that means we all should be afraid every day and think about nuclear war.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t know if we should be afraid every day. We should be aware of it every day.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But we could also be aware that the US and other…

TUCKER CARLSON: What you’re doing… And you’re repeating the company line, and everyone in Germany says the same thing. And again, it keeps them from fomenting a rebellion against their own leaders who are the ones who have actually the trade.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Ah, come on.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s… Your leaders have screwed you, and mine has screwed me too, so. But whatever. You’re not alone. The threat of nuclear war is the greatest threat, period. I mean, there may be other threats I don’t know about, but that right now, is the largest demonstrative threat that we face.

So we want to always… As much as we want to prevent countries or disincentivize countries from invading their smaller neighbors. I agree with you 100% there. We don’t want that. I don’t want Russia to roll into Latvia. I don’t think we do with it. But I don’t want that. But we have to remember that it’s not as simple. It will never be as simple as just defending this one principle to the exclusion of all other principles or consequences. That’s just not how life is. And if you mess around too much, you could die. So don’t. That’s the point.

Understanding vs. Agreement

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I want to understand again. Yeah, sorry. It’s not a show. I always do that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just enjoying it.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Maybe. Maybe.

TUCKER CARLSON: I feel like you’re… I feel like you’re starting to agree with me.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Not really, but I’m… I mean, I believe you. I’m trying to understand you, but I’m not agreeing. Let’s keep it that way.

TUCKER CARLSON: Agree that nuclear war is something we should be afraid…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, don’t agree. Wait, no. What I’m not agreeing to is that we should be so afraid that Putin can do whatever he wants.

TUCKER CARLSON: Hardly making that argument. I’m saying acknowledge the limits of your power to determine what Putin does or doesn’t do. You’re not in charge of what Putin does. Actually, Putin’s in charge of what Putin does. This is called reality. And so all you can do is provide incentives, provide disincentives, see how they work. But you’re not in charge. Actually, that’s the point.

European Leaders and Trump

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So I was with our leader. You dislike Felix Merz. I was with him in…

TUCKER CARLSON: I just have total contempt for what he’s doing.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I was with him when he visited Trump in the Oval Office. And, you know, they were sitting next to each other and talking, and they also talked about Ukraine. And since then, that’s my feeling. All the leaders, Macron, Starmer, Merz, they all tried to kind of push Trump into a different direction than he was. I mean, like, if we… if we see how Zelensky was in the Oval Office some months ago, and from their perspective, it looked like it worked, would you agree on that?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I can’t really assess it. I just can’t get past… I just want to ask you a quick question. Since I’ve been doing all the talking. Do you think that… Here’s the sense I get. I get the sense that most Germans, most Europeans. But you’re Germans, I’ll say German. Most Germans are angrier at Putin than they are at their own leaders.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, it depends. I mean, you have some parts you could see.

TUCKER CARLSON: For example, all the migrants has made Germany better.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: The majority would say no.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Did Putin do that? No.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, but people wouldn’t compare these both things.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think that they would say in…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What does a war in Ukraine have to do with the migration crisis in Germany?

Hierarchy of Concerns

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it has nothing to do with it. That’s kind of the point I’m making. I think it’s essential for adults to create their own hierarchy of concerns. What do I actually care about? So the things I’m told I must care about by the people in charge. And they’re telling me that maybe for their own reasons, maybe because they’re benefiting from it. And there are things that actually matter to me. How much money do I make? What are my neighbors like, can my kids get married and have kids? Is the park filled with garbage? Stuff like that, that is of real concern to people.

And I think once you start looking at the latter category, not what the TV tells you you have to care about, not what Merz tells you you have to care about, but what you actually do care about, you will find that your enemy is not Vladimir Putin. He didn’t fill the park with garbage or migrants. Angela Merkel did and Merz is continuing to do it. And so they’re the enemies. They’re the ones who have made your life worse. That’s all I’m saying. And I just wonder if there’s anyone in Germany who sees that clearly.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I mean, if you see the success of the AfD, especially in the eastern part of Germany, I think there’s many people who are very upset about what Angela Merkel did in the past. If you see the migration crisis, I think people are upset. But at the same time, I mean, I think people can be upset about several things at the same time. So I mean, they can be upset about if they are about what happened.

TUCKER CARLSON: One living proof. I’m upset about 100 things.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, I can feel that. I can feel that.

Public Debate and Free Speech

TUCKER CARLSON: All I’m saying is the amount of energy, proportionally the amount of public debate in Germany, I’m not an expert on, I don’t speak German well, there was…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: A lot of public debate about, there’s…

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot more public debate about Putin than there is about Syrian refugees.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: A lot more.

TUCKER CARLSON: And in fact, if you complain too much about Syrian refugees, you can get in trouble, as you know. That’s not acceptable. You are not invited to complain about the physical reality of the degradation of your country by immigrants. Germany’s been totally… They’ve made a much less attractive, safe and affluent country because of mass migration. It’s obvious as a visitor, you are not invited to say that. If I say that in a school, in a church, in an office in Germany, people are not like, “oh, tell me more.” They’re like, “why are you saying that?”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I would say you find a lot already. I mean, you can see that what…

TUCKER CARLSON: I just mentioned, it’s like declared a Nazi party. They tried to make it illegal. Or was that not clear?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, it’s our so called… And now there is, it’s in court right now.

TUCKER CARLSON: So the people who hate Nazis are using the secret police to make their political opponents illegal. How does that work? No, I hate Nazis or I’m going to use the government, people with guns to make you shut up. Because I hate Nazis so much. Carefully.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, it’s a…

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s how much I hate Nazis. Shut up or I’ll shoot you.

Democracy and Political Opposition

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So we could see many U.S. politicians reacting on that. J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio. You know, it’s funny, though.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you hate Nazis enough to shoot someone who disagrees with you?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: If I hate Nazis enough to shoot them, no, I would never shoot anybody.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, I’m just saying, if you’re against Nazis, which I strongly am, then you want to see the maximum amount of political debate. Free speech, individual choice. I get to decide who I support, whether you like it or not. That’s what a democracy is. And anyone who’s saying, “no, you don’t. The people you like, I’m going to ban them.” Who’s on the Nazi side?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: There has been a lot of public debate about what J.D. Vance said about, you know, public speech in Germany. That was also…

TUCKER CARLSON: Why does it take J.D. Vance to start the debate in Germany? Why don’t people say, “hey, maybe the lesson of the Second World War is authoritarianism doesn’t work. Maybe we should stop doing it?” And maybe if most people don’t want migrants in the country, why don’t we kick them out? Why can’t we have an open debate about this? Why are we forcing…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: There is an open debate about it. I mean, there is.

Population Replacement

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re trying to ban the party that talked about it just a little bit, by the way. I didn’t think AfD talked about it enough. That’s the issue. You change the population in the country, you change the country. The Germanic peoples are the dominant peoples of Western Europe. Okay. Most productive in my… I’m not just because I’m related to them, but I think they’re the most impressive. And they are being replaced from people from somewhere else.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: They’re not being replaced.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, of course they’re being replaced. If Germany is on track to become majority less German in the next hundred years, I think unless those numbers are fake, if the current rates that the current German birth rate continues alongside the current inflow of people who are not German, it will not be a majority German country in a hundred years. I think that’s right. I mean, you can correct me on the numbers if I’m wrong.

If that is true, that is by definition replacement. The people who lived there 100 years ago are no longer the dominant majority. That’s replacing. New people are the dominant majority. That’s literally the definition of replacement. And the fact that it makes you so uncomfortable that I’m saying that tells me that it’s time to free your mind and just say things that are true regardless.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, you’ve been saying this now 10 times that I’m not uncomfortable. I came here to listen to you. I mean, I still…

TUCKER CARLSON: Want it to be a learning experience. Science. It’s not just like, well, I tried to… The mayor of the world’s most dangerous podcaster. No, let’s make it a kind of, yeah, Socrates and Aristotle.

Big Questions Matter

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But… But I mean, we did that in terms of Russia and Ukraine, I think. I mean, that was very interesting to understand.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is interesting and important to the extent that we’re risking the extermination of humanity with a global nuclear war. Okay. That’s why it’s interesting. I have a bunch of other non interesting views on it. Okay. That not even worth talking about. Just like my preferences or whatever. They’re probably dumb, you probably don’t agree, so it doesn’t matter.

But the big questions do matter. Do we have a nuclear war? Is Germany majority non German in 100 years? How is that not a big question? And I’m saying the biggest questions are not only ignored, they’re discouraged. You are not encouraged to ask the questions that actually matter. Will Germany be majority German in the next hundred years? And people would say, “what does it mean to be majority German?” I don’t know. Your ancestors lived here 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago. You’re the indigenous population. Are you being replaced? Shut up. You can’t use the word replacement.

I can say whatever I want, actually, because I’m a free man, not your slave. And I want you to answer the question, why is that not important? I think it is demonstrably important. And by the way, if it were happening in Fiji or Malaysia or China or India, I would say the same thing. Well, why destroy a people?

AfD and Political Suppression

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, but you said that there is not enough discussion about migration policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: They tried to ban AfD for talking about it.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: No, they’re not… Well, but they’re not dangerous extremists. They’re not banning them. That’s not true. Well, they’re in court because there is the German force. Yeah. And so they research or investigated and said, you know, that the AfD is a right… Is a fascist party. Like we could say that. Right? Fascist party.

TUCKER CARLSON: What does it mean to be fascist?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, it means from their perspective, there’s people inside the AfD who said this or who said that. You know, there’s a big document.

The Definition of Democracy

TUCKER CARLSON: What’s the definition of that?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, they say that it’s against German law. What they said, you know, in terms of the right way. There’s different examples of public speeches, what they said inside, but this doesn’t mean that they are banning them. You know, banning them means…

TUCKER CARLSON: What it means is you’re not allowed to say certain things, you’re not allowed to have certain opinions in Germany. They’re illegal, they’re against German law. You just said that. And that tells me conclusively that you do not live in a democracy, no matter what you tell yourself. It’s democracy. We elect people lawmakers. We’ve got our chancellor. It’s not a democracy unless the average person, the average citizen, the average German, can say what he thinks.

If he’s not allowed to say what he thinks, then he has no power. He has only fake power. If you can’t say what you really think, what really matters to you, what you actually believe, whether I agree with it or not, then you are not a citizen, you are a slave. No different than German citizens were slaves at other periods in German history. And I’m just saying it’s important if you’re going to pretend to be a democracy, to actually be one. That’s all I’m saying. Don’t you agree with that?

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, I mean, there are laws. There are, you know, the laws are…

TUCKER CARLSON: Illegitimate and they give lie to the claim that you’re a democracy. If the ruling party can pass laws banning criticism of the ruling party, how is that better than Putin’s Russia? It’s not. And the one way that Putin’s Russia is better is that people in Russia really like Russia actually. And people in Germany will never say, “I love Germany.”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Oh, there’s many people saying that.

TUCKER CARLSON: “Proud of my German heritage.” I’ve never heard. I hope every German feels that way because you have so much to be proud of. Take up the Nazi period. I think you can be really proud of what Germany has given to the world. Maybe more than any other country actually, in fact.

Historical Context and Laws

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, but because what happened in the Nazi period, I mean, there is our history, you know, we still have to deal with our history. Shouldn’t forget about it. And because of what happened in our history with the NSDAP coming up, with the Nazi party coming up, there are laws in Germany. And our idea is that what happened in 1933 should never happen again.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: That’s the reason why so called “Verfassungsschutz.”

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, this is not my business, but just as a historical matter, I think that…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I want to say something very clear. I think it’s a total wrong idea to ban the AfD. I’m totally against it, you know, because I agree that you can’t ban a party where 23% or 25% of the people are voting for.

The Dangers of Banning Political Parties

TUCKER CARLSON: You can’t ban a party with one-tenth of one percent. You can’t ban parties, you can’t ban ideas. You have to out-compete them. If my idea is wrong, tell me how. You have to treat me like a human being, not a slave. Tell me how it’s wrong. Convince me it’s wrong, show me, offer me incentives, but you can’t force me. And if you force me, by the way, it doesn’t work. As you just said, it doesn’t work.

Part of the reason that someone as grotesque as Hitler was able to take power in a country as advanced as Germany is because the German people were totally degraded by the settlement after World War I. You know this. And their land was stripped and they had foreign troops, they sent African troops, as you know, to degrade the Germans. And the Germans hated that. And I understand why. And unfortunately, their hate and resentment built to the point where they elected Hitler. That’s the actual lesson of it. And I say that as someone who’s being anti-Hitler.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, but that would sound like there’s not a German fault. I mean, that sounds like something happened before, but…

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course it’s the Germans’ fault for electing Hitler. I’m not… This is again the childish level of discussion about everything that has led us to the brink of nuclear war and the destruction of Western Europe is that no one can have an honest conversation.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Well, we have that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I’m trying. So no, I’m not stripping the Germans of their war guilt. They have war guilt. I get it. I’m just saying how did the war start in the first place? How did they elect Hitler in the first place? Why would a country… And I often learned this as a job. The shocking thing about the Nazi party was it happened in Germany. And so many of the Jewish refugees who came to the United States from Germany were the most impressive people. And I remember reading stuff, they were like, “I can’t believe this happened in Germany. I served in the First World War. I love Germany, I’m German. I was this famous scientist, I had to move to New York.” It’s a very familiar thing, right?

The whole point was it happened in a country as evolved as Germany, the most evolved country, how did that happen? Nobody asks. And it’s important to know because you don’t want it to happen again. And I know that there are many causes of this and every other historical event, but one of the ways that it happened was more than a decade of degradation. Convinced the people they had no option but to do something radical and crazy like elect Hitler, a non-German, to run their country. That’s all I’m saying.

And so I’m just saying there’s a long-term cost to degrading people and not allowing them to say what they think. And one of the costs is they can become super radical and crazy if you keep it up. Super radical and crazy. And I’m not saying that’s going to happen in Germany. I’m just saying that happens with people. You know what I mean? You have to treat them like human beings. You can’t ban their parties.

Shifting to Foreign Policy

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What I don’t understand is if we talk about the US right now and what their focus… because I mean, I’m more foreign policy expert or crisis or, you know, I’m more out of Germany. So I like to talk about Ukraine and Israel and Iran, what happened to the…

TUCKER CARLSON: Don’t say.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, stuff like that as well. So I would be really interested to understand because you talk to a lot of people, not only Trump, but also to J.D. Vance, to many others, to everybody, which is great. Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s not considered great, it’s considered an audience.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Really in the US?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh yeah. I mean, I don’t care. I’m kind of off the Internet at this point. I don’t ever read criticism or praise.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You’re off the Internet?

TUCKER CARLSON: You can’t be off the Internet. But I really try not to go on social media. You know, you try to… I try to be… I try to get my information from people because I think it’s better. But there’s a lot of pressure in the United States and it’s overwhelming in Germany as well and throughout Europe to not talk to people you disagree with or who are “bad.” And I just feel like that is not the way to knowledge or wisdom. You want to talk to as many people as you can.

J.D. Vance and Decision-Making

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I totally agree on that. So talking about J.D. Vance, do you think he agrees on what Trump is doing in terms of Putin, in terms of Iran?

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, I don’t strictly speaking know the answer, so I can’t give it. I’ll just make a couple obvious points. I love J.D. Vance, that he’s a really decent man. He’s very smart in a true sense. Not in a glib, facile, fake politician sense where he can slide past the question and convince you into moving on to the next question. He’s not that guy. He’s a genuinely reflective, deep person with a lot of wisdom for a man as young as he is. So I really admire J.D. and he’s the Vice President of the United States.

So at this point, doesn’t kind of matter. Just the way I don’t know how much you know about how our government is structured, but the vice president receives as many votes as the president. So he has the legitimacy, the moral legitimacy of the president. He has the people’s expressed will backing him up. Democracy is working. But he does not have constitutionally the authority to make any decisions at all. Really any. And certainly not on foreign policy. It’s the commander in chief, it’s the executive, it’s the one guy, it’s the president who makes those decisions. And he makes them constitutionally, under our constitution, he makes them unilaterally. The president says this, we’re doing it. The military has to follow him.

Outside Influences on Trump

PAUL RONZHEIMER: You know him very well. But how does he take this decision? Trump in terms of Iran bombing the facilities, in terms of Ukraine, Putin giving this ultimatum, 50 days. Who are the people around him, you think, convince him to do this or to do that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I’ve said this publicly, and of course, I would begin with the caveat that I don’t work there. I can’t know.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But you know people.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I can’t know most things and I don’t. But my strong impression is that the president listens to a lot of people on every topic, which I like about him very much. But I think on foreign policy questions, particularly recently, “Do we use force against this or that Muslim country?” I think the pressure to do that or the voices trying to convince him to do that are coming from outside of the administration. I think that’s true. That’s my impression.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Who’s outside? What do you mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: People he knows, people he’s in touch with, talk show hosts. I mean, I actually at one point…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Produced a list, Sean Hannity people.

TUCKER CARLSON: I like Sean Hannity. I’m not talking Sean Hannity, but clearly Sean has different foreign policy views from mine, for sure, and speaks to the President a lot, but not just him, other people the president knows and donors and Perlmutter and, you know, whatever. Rupert Murdoch has been a consistent voice urging more military action against this, that or another country. And I think, you know, I don’t really understand that, but I know that he is calling the president multiple times, multiple, multiple, multiple times a week to urge to attack, kill more people in some other country. Because for whatever reason…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: When did that happen recently or when you were ongoing?

TUCKER CARLSON: As far as I know, I think Rupert Murdoch has been one of the most aggressive voices in the president’s ear. There are lots of voices in the president’s ear. Doesn’t mean he’s taking orders from Rupert Murdoch. But all I’m saying is there’s a chorus of people, this is true in every administration, weighing in on behalf of, you know, their own views or some constituency. “President should do this,” and they speak to his advisors and in some cases, speak directly to him.

And I do think, to his credit, Trump speaks to a broader palette of people than most presidents. I’ve never known… Known a lot of presidents. I’ve never seen one take as much advice, counsel from as many different people. And I think that’s good, actually, in general, because it gives you perspective, what’s happening outside the White House. You’re very cut off from the world. Any president is. But my impression is that the push toward war in Russia and in the Middle East has come mostly from outside the White House. You know, normally it’s like the national security advisor is insane and he wants to bomb this or that group. I don’t know if that’s true. I could be wrong, but that’s my impression.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Where does J.D.

Trump’s Vice President and America’s Foreign Policy Challenges

TUCKER CARLSON: Vance stand? J.D. Vance is the vice president. And I’m like, there’s always this terrible tension between president and vice president, especially a president who’s in his final term as this president is, where the vice president’s always tempted to act in the service of his own political ambitions and undermine the President. J.D. Vance has not done that at all. Everything the president has said, the vice president said, “I support that. What can I do to help you?” So that’s been… I mean, Trump is blessed to have a vice president like that, from my perspective.

I do think, though, it’s not about Trump or J.D. Vance, but the United States has fought a lot of wars since 1945. Dozens and dozens and dozens, all of them undeclared, most of them small. And I can’t think of any that has made the United States better off, that have helped the American people, that have made the country richer, that have made the country more cohesive, which is one of the main goals of leadership is to bring cohesion. You want your people to get along in the way that you want your children to get along.

This country is less cohesive than it’s ever been. And I think the cycle has accelerated in the last 10 years. And as our country declines, it becomes poorer and more at war with itself. I think we have become more aggressive outside of our borders, and I do see a connection between the two.

The Temptation to Focus on Foreign Problems

I don’t fully understand it, and I’ll just stop with this. I think it has to do with what our leaders care about. And some of the problems that advanced Western societies face are very complex. There’s no obvious answer, whether they’re problems with energy or the way money is distributed. What is your economy? These are the basic questions that any society faces. And they’re hard to fix these problems.

What do you do about the millions of people from other countries living in your country who aren’t assimilating? And population was born here is mad. They’re mad. How do you fix that? It’s hard. I mean, I will give them credit. It’s hard.

And so there is a temptation to spend your time on problems that you think you can solve, and almost all of those are outside your borders. And so I certainly noticed this with Merkel and with you, frankly, no offense, but also with our journalists here in the United States and our lawmakers here. They’re so focused on Ukraine, for example. There’s a good guy versus a bad guy, and let’s make this right. And I think there’s a lot of good faith behind that. I’m not attacking them. I understand why they feel that way.

It’s a lot easier to spend your time on something you think can actually work, to take the side of a group you think is actually good, because you don’t know that much about them. You don’t speak the language, you’re not from there. So it’s easy to imagine they’re really good and their opponents are really bad, when in truth, the reality is always much more complex. But you don’t know that because you’re not from there.

And in the process, ignore the things you’re actually responsible for, which is the condition of your own country and your own people. I do think that’s what’s happening in the United States. I know it’s happening in Europe because it’s easy to see it from the distance. And I think that if that continues, there will be revolutions in these countries, because the people of these countries have been really mistreated by their leaders, really mistreated. I think the people of Europe have been far more mistreated by their own leaders than they ever have been by Putin. And when they realize that, I worry about Europe.

J.D. Vance’s Political Future

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Will J.D. Vance be the next president after Trump?

TUCKER CARLSON: Gosh, I sure hope so. I do, I do. I don’t know everything that I’m not an advisor to J.D.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Vance, but when did you talk to him the last time?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, years ago. I’ve never met him. I just want to be clear. I’ve never… No, of course I’ve met J.D. Vance, but I think, unlike J.D. Vance, I don’t have a political future ahead of me. I don’t work for anybody. I can say whatever I want. My children are grown. There are no restrictions on my ability to say what I think is true. And so as a result of that, I’m considered wildly controversial.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But if you…

TUCKER CARLSON: So I don’t want, as I, Mr. Kozler, to be used to root J.D. Vance. That’s all I’m saying.

Why Tucker Won’t Run for Office

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But if you’re so concerned as you are, and I can feel it, and how you see the problems from your perspective in the US, in Europe, but also in the world, so why are you not considering running?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I’m doing what I think God made me to do, which is just to talk. I have no power. I don’t want any power. I just sit in a chair. And another thing, I’m just another middle-aged guy with an opinion. But we happen to have cameras in my barn so other people can hear my opinion. That is what I was made for. It’s what I’ve always done. And one of the reasons I’m happy is because I recognize my own limits.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Would you have a chance if you run?

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s people saying that I’m not going to run.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But if you would run, I would…

TUCKER CARLSON: Have to show up in my house and tell me to run, in which case I would. I don’t think it’s going to happen.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Is there anything, what could happen that you run?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I mean, I don’t want to run. I’m not suited for it. And I have a happy life because I don’t imagine that some entirely different career awaits me or I really should be doing something else. If I thought I should be doing something else, I’d be doing it. I’m doing exactly what I like, doing what I think I’m made to do, what I’m decent at doing, what I’ve always done. Don’t feel like, “Oh, man, I really want to be a fireman or a senator from Arkansas or something.” I don’t want that.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I don’t think…

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you know what I mean? I hope you feel it. That’s the greatest blessing, is to feel happy. I like my wife. I like where I live. I like my dogs. I like my kids. I’m pretty happy with everything. I don’t feel like, “I wish I had a plane.” I don’t really need a plane or whatever. I need a country or, “If only I could bomb Syria, that would make me feel whole. I’d forget my own impotence if I bomb Syria.” I don’t feel that way.

The Blessing of Contentment

PAUL RONZHEIMER: But it could be that you get so upset about things that you feel like you want to not only talk about, but you want to change things.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s what they all convince themselves. “I want to be a player. I want to be in charge.” And I think I was really blessed at a very young age, in high school, because of my father. We lived in D.C. I was around a lot of that. I mean, I had lunch at the White House in high school. And I’m not bragging. I’m just the opposite. It’s like the more you’re around that stuff, you realize it’s just people doing their best, and some cases not doing their best. But it’s not anything magic.

And I don’t think I’m just not that impressed by power. I think that’s my great advantage in life, as I’ve been around it a lot, and I’ve been around it so much that I don’t have any illusions about it. I’m not impressed by it at all. I don’t hate everyone with power, but I certainly not going to kiss their rear. I don’t think they’re Jesus. I disagree.

The Epstein Case and Government Transparency

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So if you’re not running, and maybe J.D. Vance is running. But right now, it looks like the MAGA movement is kind of divided in terms of foreign policy, what to do, but also internal stuff. We haven’t talked about Epstein and the Epstein case. Epstein? Why?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because I love the German pronunciation.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Epstein.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is that how it’s… Yeah. I didn’t know him. Thank heaven.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So what is going on inside the MAGA movement right now? Oh, boy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I have no idea what we do know is there was this guy who got indicted twice, convicted once of sex crimes, and he was a sex weirdo, lots of those. I worked in television, I know quite a few. So we know that. What we don’t know is what was he doing and how did he get hundreds of millions of dollars? He didn’t apparently execute any trades on Wall Street. He was not a trader, didn’t work on Wall Street. So where’d the money come from? What was the point of this?

He had heads of state and high level political leaders in his house all the time. And there was sex involved. And there are a lot of allegations which may or may not be true. I can’t assess that about what he was doing and why. And we don’t have answers on that. And I think we know enough that people are insistent on getting answers. And then there’s a question of how did he die? It’s pretty clear he did not kill himself.

Trump and the Epstein Questions

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Do you think Trump is nervous about it? We can see his tweets and his…

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know, I can’t say, but I can say that normal people, non-crazy people have a great desire to know these answers, and I think have an expectation that they do these answers. It’s their right to know their government was involved.

And I also think bigger than that, and this is something that maybe not everyone at the White House understands, though I think they will. It’s a metaphor. It represents something bigger than it is. I personally don’t think the fate of nations rises or falls on the questions of Jeffrey Epstein. I just don’t. Okay. But I do think the fate of nations rises and falls on the question of who’s really in charge, who’s making these decisions and why. That is the fate of nations. That question.

So there is a widespread belief in the United States, and it’s true, it’s rooted in reality, that a lot of this is fake. It’s an illusion. Why can’t we know in our system the people rule? We have a representative democracy in which we elect people to work on our behalf, but it’s our behalf. They’re working on it. They work for us. We own this country. We’re shareholders. We’re not just passing through, we’re not renting it, we own it. That’s the American system.

And so if you can’t get a straight answer from your government about what the government’s doing, and there’s clearly no national security implications… Some pedophile that, well, how is that a national security question? It’s not. Then you start to wonder, what the hell is this? Who’s running it?

And Donald Trump ran for president on the promise that he would tell us and that he would end corruption in Washington. Now that’s a big promise. Every large organization is corrupt by its nature. D.C. is the largest organization, therefore it’s the most corrupt. That’s just a fact. So can one man fix that? No, but you have to make a good faith effort. And so people understood that when Trump got there and they voted for him for this reason, that they would learn what their government was doing. Not just about Epstein and not just about JFK or RFK or MLK or the historic murders that are still unsolved, but about where does all the money go? Why is the Pentagon getting a trillion dollars? Where does the money go? Exactly.

Trump Supporters’ Expectations

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So Trump supporters disappointed.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know Trump. Look, I think my impression is that I’m trying to be diplomatic here.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Yeah, I can feel that I’m trying because this is, I mean, well, with Trump, you’re diplomatic. With the other topics, not that much.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, that’s true, because I know Trump.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So you would get furious if you’re non-diplomatic.

Trump’s Character and the Epstein Connection

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t care about that or I wouldn’t be talking to you in the first place. I’m not afraid of anybody and I don’t owe Trump anything, of course. But no, I know him well enough to know that and have known him for so long, and I’ve talked to him so much that I know that he agrees fundamentally with the idea that the system is corrupt and the way that it continues to be corrupt is through secrecy and that you have to air the stuff, you have to tell people what’s going on and take the hit.

And that’s okay. You know, we all screw up. There are things about me I seek to hide. Love pizza or whatever, you know, that’s okay. But you have to be honest at a certain point or it doesn’t get better. That’s just kind of a basic human principle. And I know that Trump agrees with that.

And so if I’m being cagey or I don’t mean to be cagey, I don’t really understand what’s going on, if I’m being honest. I really don’t. And I haven’t talked to him about it. I have called over there and asked what’s going on. I don’t understand this, by the way. I don’t think Trump had anything to do with Epstein. He knew Epstein. But I would be sincerely shocked if Trump… There was some weird sex stuff with Trump. I just don’t believe that. I’ve talked to Trump about it. I know him well.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: What did he say?

TUCKER CARLSON: He said… I think he said this publicly. He said Epstein was always in Mar-a-Lago, freeloading and hitting on massage therapists, and he kicked him out.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Does this sound realistic, too? It does.

TUCKER CARLSON: Whatever Trump’s sins… I have never gotten a creepy vibe off him at all. And you ask any woman who’s been around him. I was just asking one who’s standing right there and knows him. You’ve got a creepy vibe because women… No, they get the creepy vibe way better than men do, or at least than I do. And I’ve asked women. Do you get creepy vibe off from… You could smell it. If someone’s got weird sex stuff going on underneath the surface, I can smell it instantly. I don’t know what you’re into, but it’s freaky. I know that. Not pointing that at you.

I’ve never gotten that vibe off Trump at all. And everyone I’ve ever asked, didn’t you say you don’t get that at all? Right. So I could be completely wrong, but I would be shocked. And by the way, this information, if it exists, would have been in the hands of the Biden administration during the last presidential campaign. You think they wouldn’t elite Trump? Whatever. Weird stuff. I don’t think… I don’t think that’s it. I really don’t.

Again, could be wrong, but I just don’t believe it. And so what is this? And I don’t really know. I mean, my sense is that you do get in a vacuum when you’re at the top of whatever pyramid. And I don’t think they fully understand how this is being read on the outside. But we’re a few days into this. Get back to me in a month and I’ll have a better sense. We all have a better sense of what this is, but I think it’s a big deal. I guess that’s what I’m saying. Not because of Epstein, but because of what he represents.

The MAGA Movement and Voter Abandonment

PAUL RONZHEIMER: So it’s Epstein, it’s Iran, it’s Russia, Ukraine. What kind of shifts the MAGA movement or…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, look, I mean, in the United States, people voted for Trump. Not all, of course, but a lot of people voted for Trump with the sense that he’s the only one who cares. So our country has… And you don’t get this sense if you don’t live here, but if you really, if you travel the country and you look carefully at the numbers, people not having children, they are literally being replaced by immigrants. They can’t afford anything. I mean, it’s… Economically, parts of this country are much poorer than they were when I was a child.

And so there’s a feeling of abandonment and anger. Well, justified anger. And those are Trump voters for sure. You drive around here, you see a lot of Trump signs. That’s the reason. The higher your death rate from opioids… I think this is true. You can check it. The higher the rate of vote for Donald Trump.

So Trump got the vote of people who feel abandoned and they have been abandoned and it’s provable. No one cares about them at all. What do they think of 25,000 Somalis moving into their town? Nobody asks them. Nobody cares. Just wreck their lives, wreck their schools, wreck their hospitals, destroy their community, and no one asks them what they think. “Shut up, racist.” That’s the answer they get.

How do you think they feel about that? How do you think the Germans that’s happened to feel? They feel angry and they like, “I’m going to vote for AfD.” “Oh, it’s banned. It’s a Nazi party.”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: It’s not banned.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re in court because they had naughty opinions about how they were treated by their own leadership.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: I’m just saying.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just saying. Yeah, what’s happening in Western Europe? I’m being mean to Germany, a country I really…

PAUL RONZHEIMER: It’s okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you guys love it when people are mean to you. “Smack me harder, Daddy.” Oh, I’m sorry. Excuse me. But true, but anyway, that’s Trump’s base here. It’s the same dynamic. It’s people who’ve been abandoned by larger forces, geo-economic forces. It’s not all like bad people made mean decisions, but they didn’t protect their people. Okay?

And those people are upset and Trump is the expression of how upset they are. And he’s really their last hope. And they like him. He’s very likable. I like him. So I can tell you that firsthand.

The Stakes of Political Abandonment

So if Trump doesn’t work, if they feel like Trump abandoned them, he’s the last… That’s the last train out, man. Is the last political solution to their problems. And so it’s a big, big deal if Trump is, and I don’t know if this is true, but if he is seen as turning on his own voters who love him, that’s profound. And I don’t know what the consequences… I hope that’s not true for one thing I don’t know that it is true. But if that is true, that’s a profound thing. And I don’t know what the consequences will be. I hope it’s not true.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Mr. Carlson, thank you very much for your time. Was very interesting.

TUCKER CARLSON: I won you over. I know part of you is like, “Oh, this is forbidden. I can’t think this.”

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Think this.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so naughty.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: No, I have never. No, I’m sorry.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I tried. Think about it. Think about it.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: She tried hard.

TUCKER CARLSON: Great to see you. Thank you.

PAUL RONZHEIMER: Great to see you. Thank you very much.

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