Transcript: EAM S Jaishankar’s Interview @HT Leadership Summit 2025

Dr. Jaishankar, would India be willing to consider buying say the SU-57 from Moscow? And how much at the back of your head would be playing the fact that some of the critical tech inside could actually be coming from China?

S JAISHANKAR: I would have been surprised if you didn’t ask me that question. So the answer is that yes, there was what we call the intergovernmental commission, the military technical cooperation side of it meeting. From our side, Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh ji was the chair, their Defense Minister’s the Russian co-chair, they had the meetings.

But I’m telling you what the summit itself did. Of course we have good defense cooperation. Again, it’s been a very continuous dimension of our cooperation with Russia. But you know, where specifics are concerned, you know, that’s for the various systems to work out and do in their own way.

RAHUL KANWAL: You dodged my question, which is fine.

Strategic Autonomy and the US Relationship

RAHUL KANWAL: You’re trying to further India-Russia ties at a time when the United States would have ideally wanted greater strategic alignment, which now seems very difficult. But do you think given that you’re in the final stages or at least attempting to push through the first tranche of an India-US trade deal, President Putin’s very public visit to India complicates negotiations with DC?

S JAISHANKAR: No, I disagree with you. I think everybody knows that India has relations with all the major countries of the world. And I think for any country to expect to have a veto or a say in how we develop our relations with others is not a reasonable proposition because remember, the others can expect the same.

So I think we’ve always made it very clear that we have multiple relationships, we have a freedom of choice. We talk about what is called strategic autonomy and that continues. And I cannot imagine why anybody would have reason to expect the contrary.

Reading Putin: Beyond Western Narratives

RAHUL KANWAL: You know, outside of just the joint statement, what was the impression of the man given the fact that when President Putin went into Ukraine, so much was said in the Western press about whether he’s in control, whether he’s fully in charge.

You were at the state dinner and you know, when I saw at Rashtrapati Bhavan last evening, the man has a huge commanding presence. Right at the end, Prime Minister Modi and he went into a corner. They had this one-on-one going on for several minutes.

What was your impression of a man given the perception that the Western press tried to create about a man who was isolated, cut away from others and not fully in control of his own system?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, look, if I wanted a reading about President Putin, I’m not sure I’d go to the Western press for an objective assessment.

RAHUL KANWAL: Sure.

S JAISHANKAR: You want to leave it there? Well, I think that’s an answer, isn’t it?

Navigating Trump’s Transactional Approach

RAHUL KANWAL: Okay, now, so let’s build on this further by asking you for a reading of what do you think is happening with American President Donald Trump at the moment? Given the fact that India invested so much, the prime minister himself invested so much in the India-America relationship, are you extremely disappointed with the Trump administration and how transactional they’re choosing to be?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, look, every government and certainly every American president has their own way of approaching the world. I grant you that in the case of President Trump, it’s radically different from how his predecessors did. I think he himself would say that.

And we have right now a set of issues which the relationship is grappling with. I mean, to me, it’s—look, foreign policy doesn’t always—everything doesn’t go your way all the time on all the issues, on all the relationships. So there will be issues, you know, is it with the US today, it could be with somebody else tomorrow.

So what you try to do is to engage and work through those issues. And we believe that there can be a landing point for our respective trade interests. Obviously, that is something which will be negotiated and negotiated hard because it has an implication for livelihoods in this country.

You know, at the end of the day for us, the interests of the workers and the farmers and the small business and the middle class matters. So when we look at a trade agreement with a country like the United States, you have to be extremely judicious about your position, about what you put on the table.

The India-US Trade Deal Timeline

RAHUL KANWAL: How optimistic are you at the moment? Are we days away, weeks away, months away, potentially years away from just the first part of the trade deal?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, look, you know, diplomacy, you’re always optimistic, because I’m not saying that as a way of stalling you, which I am, but also because, look, suddenly things can turn around. It can turn around on one weekend.

You know, I could tell you on Friday, oh, I don’t think it’s likely. And maybe it’ll happen on Monday, and you will think that I was misleading you. So it can—

RAHUL KANWAL: With Trump, we totally get it. Given the fact that on the other side of the negotiating table is President Trump, we won’t blame you. We’ll get why that happens.

S JAISHANKAR: So we’ve had, you know, there’s no lack of communication, there’s no lack of negotiation. It’s something which has gone through multiple rounds. And we have to see when the call is taken and on what terms.

So if you ask me, could it happen soon, my answer would be very possible. If you say, well, maybe soon may take a little longer, maybe. I don’t know.

Reflecting on Operation Sindur

RAHUL KANWAL: Dr. Jaishankar, the end of the year is a good time for reflection. Many amongst your peers and those around you consider you one of the sharpest diplomatic brains of your generation.

If I ask you to look back at the time of Operation Sindur, what are the cards or moves that you would have liked to play differently so that India didn’t end up in the diplomatic soup that it is with President Trump? Because many in academic and think tank circles would argue that did the diplomats in Delhi get outmaneuvered diplomatically by the generals in Rawalpindi?

S JAISHANKAR: Look, you know, let me take it in two parts. I think where India is concerned, there are things we do and there are things we don’t. That’s why we are India.

You know, we have rules, we have norms. If we take any step, we are accountable in this country, accountable to the people, to the media, to the civil society. So, you know, when it’s very easy to say these things, but clearly people, you know, a much more autocratic, oligarchic polity, where there are virtually no rules of conduct in pretty much any sphere can do things which we can’t.

I think it would be unreal to compare ourselves to them. And in many ways, I think we would be doing ourselves injustice. You know, at the end of the day, we are people with a certain sense of ourselves, with a certain set of rules about how we conduct ourselves and what we do and we don’t. And I think that’s very important to mention.

RAHUL KANWAL: No, but there are people sitting here who have told me in the past that maybe we could have played our cards slightly differently by playing to his ego, indulging him to some extent without giving in on what he wanted to project, that we thank him at some level without necessarily saying that he brokered the ceasefire, that there were ways and means around the box that we ended up in.

S JAISHANKAR: You know, it is the fate of every player to have a wiser commentator in the commentator’s box. So I would at least respect those commentators who’ve at least played.

Many of these are past players.

RAHUL KANWAL: Many of these are past players.

S JAISHANKAR: Look, here is the point. There was a certain reality, you know, now I think we owe it to ourselves to stay with that reality and stay with that record. And I don’t think I need to belabor that point. I mean, at the end of the day, we have to stand up for what is our interest and what is our, I would say, view of where the relationship should go and what terms it should go.

RAHUL KANWAL: Is it fair then to say, Dr. Jaishankar, that the relationship with the United States is moving from a zone of strategic alignment to now being increasingly transactional?

S JAISHANKAR: Look, I think clearly right now trade is the most important issue there. It’s clearly very central to the thinking in Washington much more than it was to earlier administrations.

It is something which we have recognized and we are prepared to meet, but we are prepared to meet it on reasonable terms. You know, I mean, for those of you who think that diplomacy is about pleasing somebody else, I’m sorry, that’s not my view of diplomacy.

I mean, to me, it is about defending our national interests. It is about saying what are things which my country and my people believe in. I’m not going to give a version out there which does a disservice to my armed forces and my people. Please understand that.

India-China Relations: Progress and Challenges

RAHUL KANWAL: What’s your reading of the state of play with China at this time? Given the fact that there have been now meetings at the highest level, to what extent have we been able to take the relationship out of the frostiness that we found ourselves in post Galwan? And what do you see as being the immediate trajectory from here?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, look, after October 24th, which was when the Kazan meeting happened between Prime Minister and President Xi, we reached an understanding on the last set of friction points at that time. And since then, it’s now been a little more than a year. I think by and large, the border areas have remained stable.

Patrolling patterns have mostly resumed and are taking place smoothly. So the key point which we made, that peace and tranquility in the border areas is a prerequisite for good relations, is being maintained and is being built upon.

But it’s not like that was the only issue in the relationship. There were many other issues, some of which predated Galwan. You know, so there are issues about trade. There are issues about investment. There are issues about competition, about subsidies, about fairness, about transparency. These are real issues as well.

So we are, I think we are trying to work our way through some of it. Some of it is easier, some of it is harder. For example, you know, air connections, direct air connections had stopped. Now it, by the way, didn’t stop because of Galwan. It stopped because of COVID. But it so happened after Galwan, we didn’t restore that. So that one was something we could do. So there would be other parts of it which would be a little bit more complicated. Some will happen somewhat.

RAHUL KANWAL: Are you willing to now consider settling parts of the border dispute which are easier to settle? Or is India’s position still that you need to settle the entire gamut of border?

S JAISHANKAR: No, I think, you know, you are now wading into a degree of, I would say granularity and specificity on the border. Because it is important, I am not going to tell you. So he’s thought through my questions, he’s thought through his answers.

RAHUL KANWAL: He knows what to leave. This is almost like net practice rather than, you know exactly what to weave your way around. What’s your reading of the extreme concentration of power that we’re seeing in Islamabad under the new Chief of Defence forces? And is that to India’s advantage or disadvantage that you’ve got now Asim Munir, deeply entrenched in power?

Pakistan’s Military Power and Regional Dynamics

S JAISHANKAR: Look, reflect on, you know, the last 80 years of Pakistan, which has paralleled our own independence era for the bulk of it, in one way or the other, the military has either been overtly, covertly, in a hybrid manner, essentially it’s been in command. You know, in some cases it’s more visible and naked in a way. In some cases it is less so. But what is the important point?

There is, you know, when we hear people comment on our policies, you know, I reflect sometimes. I have two neighbors, one to the east and one to the west. And the one to the east also has had for a substantial time of the same period, post 1947, the military in command.

But the military to the east is treated very differently. The military regime to the east is treated very differently from the military regime to the west. So what does it tell you? It tells you at the end of the day that much of the world actually, for all the homilies that you really, in reality, when it suits them, they can, you know, turn facts around, you know, upside down and do what they have to do.

So in another context, you use the word transactional. In many ways, the world has always been transactional. You know, that there are like, there are good terrorists and bad terrorists. There are good military rulers and apparently not so good ones.

So I think for us, the reality of the Pakistani army has always been, and much of our problems actually emanate from there. When you look at the terrorism, when you look at the training camps, when you look at the sort of a policy of kind of, I would say almost ideological hostility towards India, where does that come from? It comes from the army.

RAHUL KANWAL: Since diplomacy is so much about optionality, given our attacks after Uri and now Pahelgam, are we diplomatically boxed into a corner where General Asim Munir can whenever he chooses trigger a terror attack at some part in India and you’ve already de facto announced to the world or signaled to the world your intent that you will strike back some way or the other?

S JAISHANKAR: No, look, I think, I mean I’m not sure where you get your admiration for him from.

RAHUL KANWAL: I have no admiration for him. I’m quite disgusted by some of what he’s done.

S JAISHANKAR: I can only say that look, at the end of the day, look at the state of Pakistan. And you know, see the differentials and the capabilities and frankly the reputation on either side. I think, look, we should not get over obsessed and hyphenate ourselves with them. Yes, there are, there is a challenge, there are issues there.

RAHUL KANWAL: We’ll deal with it.

S JAISHANKAR: So you know, relax, we’ll handle it.

Bangladesh and Regional Stability

RAHUL KANWAL: Since you spoke of our neighbor in the east, Sheikh Hasina is in India.

S JAISHANKAR: And by the way, that wasn’t the neighbor in the east I had.

RAHUL KANWAL: I had.

S JAISHANKAR: The one thing I’m talking about is.

RAHUL KANWAL: In India and so far we’ve held off all pressure that’s being made by Dhaka to send her back to face trial. How do you see Delhi’s relationship with Dhaka play out given the fact that you’ve got one very key political player and those in power at the moment have a very different view on him?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, you know, what we heard was that people in Bangladesh, particularly those who are now in power had an issue with how the elections were conducted earlier.

Now, you know, this is not our issue. We are a, well, you know, we are a well wishing neighbor. Now if the issue was the election then you would imagine that the first order of business would be to do a fair election, which has stayed, you know, hopefully something would, you know, election would happen soon, it’s their business.

But at the end of the day the entire issue was about fair elections. Then it makes sense that the, you know, elections are held. So as far as we are concerned, we wish Bangladesh well. We think as a democratic country, you know, any democratic country likes to see the will of the people ascertained through a democratic process.

And you know, I’m quite confident that whatever comes out of the democratic process would have a balanced and mature view about the relationship and you know, hopefully things would improve.

RAHUL KANWAL: And Sheikh Hasina is welcome to stay for as long as she wants.

S JAISHANKAR: Well that’s a different issue, isn’t it? I mean, she came here in a certain circumstance and, you know, I think that circumstance clearly sort of is a factor in, you know, what happens to her. But again, that is something which she has to make up her mind.

Transforming Tomorrow: India’s Future Vision

RAHUL KANWAL: You know, since you’re so fond of cricket, those sitting here at the leadership summit have seen Dr. Jaishankar bat on different kinds of pitches over the years. And when the flat pitch, his batting is more aggressive. And now when the pitch is trickier, it’s good that you’re more circumspect and allowing a lot of balls to go through.

The theme of the program this year is transformation, Transforming Tomorrow. From the lens of diplomacy and foreign affairs, what is the transformation that you’re seeking? Not just next year, but in time, moving forward? And what does transforming tomorrow mean to you, Dr. Jaishankar?

S JAISHANKAR: You know, obviously, transforming tomorrow can have a variety of meanings to each person in their own profession or their calling. Or as an Indian, I can think of what tomorrow would mean for India.

So if I were to put it all together, I mean, clearly all of us would like to see tomorrow an India which would be economically much stronger, which would technologically be much more so. And I feel, you know, people don’t always make that correlation as strongly as they do which would, you know, build up its manufacturing. That too is a conviction I hold very deeply that, you know, we should be industrial power.

But from my particular perspective, tomorrow, where we are actually able to navigate what I foresee as almost a generation of uncertainty. You know, after all, look at it this way. Many of the assumptions that we held just a few years ago perhaps are each. The key assumptions are all a question mark.

You know, we had an assumption that globalization is here to stay. It is, in a manner of speaking, but it is under severe challenge in many ways. We had an assumption that the United States will always be a stabilizer of the international system. I think that’s a very questionable assumption.

Now, we had an assumption, for example, that West Asia, the Middle East, you know, those problems will never change. The landscape will never change. It has undergone a radical change. We had an assumption that technology would be a great unifier. Technology could actually end up as a great fragment.

So when you look at many of these issues, I think there are really so many uncertainties out there. The best way of dealing with tomorrow, I would say, is capability, capability and capability. You know, the world will change around us because often people expect, you know, clarity. And it’s like if you only please so and so person, if you only did such and such a thing.

It doesn’t. It’s so today, you know, so intricate and often so contradictory that the safest thing to bet on is capability. If you have capability, you can handle contingencies because there will be contingencies. There will be unforeseen circumstances with growing frequency and growing rapidity and growing seriousness.

So to me, you know, when I look at tomorrow and, you know, particularly one looks at the potential, you know, the what artificial intelligence threatens to bring or expects to bring, I think we’ll be in for a change of a kind which we can’t even imagine.

AI and the Future of Diplomacy

RAHUL KANWAL: How does AI impact diplomacy? How are you preparing within the foreign services for the impact that the technological shifts that AI induces will impact diplomacy?

S JAISHANKAR: Well, you know, the first impact of it I saw when more pieces of paper began arriving on my desk, which looked more like me till I discovered it was ChatGPT. So look it.

RAHUL KANWAL: So your team’s coded you into like they’ve told ChatGPT, and he’s just picking up. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

S JAISHANKAR: Both. It’s a good thing because, you know, in many ways it captures everything you have done. The problem is it doesn’t capture what you intend to do, which may be radically different from what your past record is. So it’s a projection. It’s not always a prognostication.

India’s Diplomatic Challenges in a Fast-Moving World

RAHUL KANWAL: In fact, since you refer to ChatGPT, when I put in some of the questions, it also told me what your likely responses are. So there’s that. What’s your number one resolution for next year? 2026. And does it feature a certain BJT?

S JAISHANKAR: Does it feature a certain Trump?

RAHUL KANWAL: Donald Junitron?

S JAISHANKAR: Does it feature Donald Trump Singh?

RAHUL KANWAL: What’s your number one resolution for next year?

RAHUL KANWAL: That’s the first time I’ve stumped you since we started.

S JAISHANKAR: No, no, no, no. I was just going to say it isn’t six weeks. The famous saying, six weeks is a long time. So ask me this on the 31st, because you know, at the pace at which the world is moving, then the new year is still far away.

RAHUL KANWAL: Wow. You know, and imagine somebody who says that trends are set over decades. And in fact, this is a story that Dr. Jaishankar told me recently that he sleeps and at some point in time, he wakes up in the morning to see what all has happened in D.C. or in the United States, takes a look as it goes back to sleep. And sometimes when you wake up in the morning, more things have happened since.

That must be tough on a. Are you getting proper sleep given the fact that Donald Trump is keeping you up, like, several times in the night?

S JAISHANKAR: He’s not, I assure you. Just, you know, I’ve always had this habit of being awake and sleeping well at the same time. One part of you is sleeping, one part of you is awake.

Because actually, remember, the bulk of the people I work with are not on my time zone. So something is happening somewhere in the world which always impacts you. So it’s something you build into your life.

Closing Remarks

RAHUL KANWAL: So much easier just to critique and to question than to have to deal with the kind of unknowns that are floating around at the moment. You came out to bat at the Hindustan Times Leadership Summit after Hugh Grant, ladies and gentlemen. Would you accept that he did at least as well, if not better? Can we have a round of applause, please?

S JAISHANKAR: Thank you. Thank you very much. This is a pleasure. Thank you.

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