Read the full transcript of a conversation with renowned brain expert and child psychologist, Dr. Daniel Amen on On Purpose with Jay Shetty Podcast titled “How To Raise Mentally Resilient Children (According To Science).”
Listen to the audio version here:
TRANSCRIPT:
The Importance of Mentally Strong Parents
JAY SHETTY: You talk about mentally strong kids live by clearly defined goals, and I was thinking about that. I think how do you set a goal for a kid and at what age does a goal become real?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, the goal starts with parents – what kind of dad or mom do I want to be? And what kind of children do I want to raise? So in raising mentally strong kids, I mean the first principle is you need to be mentally strong, right? You have to model the message.
Amen clinics, our first core value is authenticity. And what does that mean to be mentally strong? Well, the first principle is clarity – is you want to know. So when I was growing up my mom was great. She was present, but there were way too many of us. There’s seven. Third means irrelevant, at least that’s what I thought. You know Prince Harry’s book “Spare”? Well in a Lebanese family the oldest son is golden and the second son’s irrelevant.
Now, there’s a huge upside to irrelevance, which means I could do anything I want. But my mom was present and fun and playful and strict – all good qualities. My dad was gone. And so when I’m thinking about what kind of parent do I want to be is I want to be present, because that caused a lot of bitterness in my life. And if you read sort of the latest neuroscience on childbearing, attachment is so important to prevent mental illness or mental health problems.
Bonding and Connection with Children
And so if I want to be present then that leads to the second principle, which is bonding – which is connection. And how do you connect? Too many parents get that wrong and like “Oh well, let me solve all of my child’s problems” which creates entitlement and disaster. But the first one is what do you want?
And I think it’s a great question for kids when they’re six or seven – “What do you want in our relationship?” I treat a lot of difficult kids and one of my favorite questions to parents, “How many times out of ten when you ask this child to do something, will they do it the first time without arguing or fighting?” And seven is the average for healthy kids. So very few kids do something every time right? But for the kids who see me it’s zero or less than three.
And when I ask the children about this seven eight nine I’m like, “Is that your goal to make your mother cry?” I’m like “No.” I’m like, “Why do you do it?” “I don’t know.” And the fact is they don’t know because it’s not will-driven, it’s brain-driven. And that one concept all by itself on top of which if a child doesn’t do what you ask them to do and you ignore it or you just repeat it, what you’re doing is teaching them to do that. And the brain is lazy. So this is going to be a fun conversation.
JAY SHETTY: How about the people that would say that that may make children obedient, but it doesn’t make them free thinkers or it doesn’t make them independently thoughtful? I think we sometimes feel like these two things work against each other, right? Like if we feel we’re like “they listen to everything we say and they do what we say,” then how do they build up their own sense of identity? How does that –
Teaching Children Agency and Responsibility
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well that’s totally in the book on how to do that. And that is you do not solve all of your children’s problems. That’s the heart of love and logic – if you want kids to make mistakes and you want them to pay the consequences so they learn agency. It’s such an important word in lives.
So I have six children, three of them are adopted. And Chloe, who’s now 20, she’s a bit of a hellion and argumentative, oppositional. And I’m a child psychiatrist. And Chloe was two when Tana and I met. And I’m like “Tana, you’ve done second grade,” but they would like go at it in a bad way for homework for like a couple of hours. And I’m like – and then Tana got a program, I co-wrote the book with Charles Fay who’s president of the love and logic Institute.
So she got “Parenting with Love and Logic” and then took everything they ever created. One night when it finally clicked that I’ve done second grade, she told Chloe she’d never again ask her to do her homework. She said “Hey, I’ve done second grade. This is on you. And if you’re okay with the consequences of not doing your homework, Mrs. Bank, her teacher, will be mad at you. You won’t go out to recess and if you really decide you’re not going to do it, you’ll make new friends when you repeat second grade.”
That was that epiphany moment. Chloe got upset and said “It never said I wasn’t going to do my homework. I’m just not going to do it now.” She stormed off. 20 minutes later she came back. No one ever asked her to do her homework again. She’s going to graduate with a business degree from Chapman University. She’s bright. She’s independent. She has agency. She’s a hard worker and a free thinker because she couldn’t push against her mother to solve her problems. She had to figure it out with of course appropriate support.
And oh by the way, to really push on this idea – if Chloe forgot her homework, there’s no way her mother would bring it to school.
JAY SHETTY: What age is that? Is that at a particular age or is there a time when like four?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: You know, earlier the better. And of course you’re always putting, you know, think of bowling alley, you’re putting bumper guards up to protect them. But when I was a young parent, I think my self-esteem wasn’t great and I would get self-esteem by solving my children’s problems. And what I realized is I was robbing them of their self-esteem.
Because where do we get self-esteem? There’s this great study out of Harvard where they followed 454 inner-city Boston school kids for 70 years. I mean think about that – I mean one of the longest longevity studies ever done. And they looked at what was going, you know, with mental illness, with addiction, with self-esteem. And the only thing that correlated with self-esteem was whether or not you worked as a child. Whether or not you had responsibility at home. You had a paper route. You had an outside job. When I was 10 years old I went to work because my dad owned grocery stores. And work is good.
But for people who are affluent, who have help at home and everything is done for the child, you’re really setting the child up for struggles in their life because they won’t develop a sense of agency.
JAY SHETTY: That’s so interesting hearing that. I’ve always felt that. I started doing – I was a paperboy when I was 14 years old. And I remember going around the local streets and delivering the papers and it was raining and it was, you know, at some time of the year in England it would snow during the Christmas period, and it was hardest because I’m putting this like, you know, there’s a trolley we call it and all you’d call it here. But pulling this cart that has all the newspapers stacked in it.
And then I worked in re- and then I worked in a grocery store and then I worked in retail. And so I’ve been working ever since I was 14 years old and I couldn’t agree with you more. I learned so many interesting skills. I developed so many amazing habits because you had to in order to do it. And that resonates so strongly with me.
How do you get comfortable watching your child be uncomfortable? Because I can imagine that’s the biggest challenge, right, as a parent who loves, adores, cares for this child, doesn’t want it to be cold, doesn’t want the child to be late for school, doesn’t want the child to perform poorly. Your ego is somewhat attached to the child’s ego and success level. How do you get comfortable watching a child be uncomfortable in a non-unemotional way and not in a insensitive way?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: You have to have the big picture in mind and the long game in mind. What do I want? What kind of parent do I want to be? Effective? Present? What kind of child do I want to raise? Independent? Competent? Strong? If I do too much, I’m robbing them of their self-esteem, of their sense of responsibility and agency. And that’s a disaster. You just don’t want – and you need to see it ahead of time. And that’s why, you know, the first principles know what you want. And always ask your kids – “So what’s the goal for this year? What do you want?” Right? It’s not – you’re not telling them their goal.
I mean an example when I turned 18, it’s first time I could vote. And my dad told me if I voted for Senator McGovern the country would go to hell. So 1972, Richard Nixon running for re-election. He’s a very popular president, even though it’ll turn out to be a disaster, against Senator McGovern. And I’m 18 and I don’t have a relationship with my dad. I mean, we’re sort of mostly mad at each other. He’s trying to have influence on me, but because we don’t have a relationship I’d just as soon piss him off, right. Now it wasn’t my conscious thought but I’d just as soon piss them off. And I voted for McGovern and the country went to hell, but it had nothing to do with McGovern. It was all Nixon and Watergate and so on. But it was that lack of relationship.
And if people do what I talk about in the book, you have more influence with them. And that leads to – so the first principle is goal-setting. The second one is bonding. It’s attachment. If you want to have influence with your children, if you want them to seriously consider your values, you have to be connected with them.
Investing Time in Your Children
JAY SHETTY: What does that take?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Time. Like actual physical time where you’re not on your phone, but you put the phone away and you spend 20 minutes a day with the child. So there’s an exercise I talk about in the book that I love so much that, you know, all the things I’ve recommended to my patients over the last 45 years. When I decided to be a psychiatrist 45 years ago, special time, it’s magic. And 20 minutes a day, do something with your child child wants to do that’s reasonable you can do in 20 minutes. So it’s like not “take me to Nordstrom’s.” And during that time – no commands, no questions, no directions. It’s just time to be together.
And it’s money in the relational bank. And I remember when I first figured this out. My literary agent had a child later in life. We were talking on the phone and he’s like “My daughter Laura doesn’t want to have anything to do with me and she’s two.” And he said “That’s like a girl thing, right? A mother-daughter thing. They don’t want anything.” I’m like “No Carl. You’re adoring her.” “What what do you mean I’m ignored?” I’m like “You’re ignoring her. Do this.”
And he said “That won’t work.” I’m like “Oh great, you represent an idiot. My own literary agent won’t do what I say. Do it. In fact, I’m going to put you in my schedule for three weeks. I’m going to call you, get the party started.”
And so three weeks go by, I call him up. “Carl?” “Daniel, she won’t leave me alone. As soon as I walk in the door she grabs my leg and wants her time. All she wants to do is be with me.” I’m like “That’s a problem. That’s what we want, right? That’s what we’re after.”
So actual physical time. And now parents are so busy, they’re not spending this one-on-one alone time. Listening. So that’s the second part of it. So time, actual physical time, and shut up. I mean, it’s so important. You love them so much you want to pour all of your knowledge, all of your wisdom that you worked your whole life on and download it into their head. Don’t do that. Listen to them.
And therapists learn this technique called the active listening that whenever someone says something you don’t interrupt and tell them how to think. You repeat it back and you listen for the feelings behind the words.
So my son came home and said “Dad, I want to have blue hair.” I don’t know what your father would have said, but I know what mine would have said. “No. When else – long as you live in this house, so you can have blue hair.”
But what does that do? It just stops the conversation or to start to fight. Active listening teaches you repeat back what you hear. “Oh, you want to have blue hair.” And then be quiet long enough for them to like explain what’s really going on. And he might say “All the kids are wearing their hair blue.” Now I’ve been to a school. I know not everybody’s blue-headed. And if I would have said that to my dad, I don’t know what your dad would have said. “I don’t care what anybody else is doing. As long as you live in this house, you’re not going to have blue hair. If they’re going to jump off a bridge, are you going with them?”
What does it do? Stops the conversation or it starts a fight. “Sounds like you want to be like the other kids.” Completely different conversation. But that’s – and he might say “Dad, you know, sometimes I feel like I don’t fit in.” Now my mother would have said “What do you mean you don’t fit in? Of course you fit in. You’re a good boy. You’re a good-looking boy. You’re a nice boy.” And that’s not helpful either. What’s just helpful is “So sometimes you feel like you don’t fit in.” And then give it a breath so they’re the ones solving their problem.
Now at the end of a half an hour he says “I still want to have blue hair.” But I told him “No way in hell as long as you look at my house, because it’s not cool to look weird.” I mean if you look weird, you’re going to hang out with weird people, right?
The Consequences of Different Parenting Styles
It’s okay to have boundaries around behavior. Some parents they have like no boundaries and I think some boundaries are appropriate.
JAY SHETTY: What does no boundaries lead to like from a neuroscience and from a study perspective? What is – what happens?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: At least the mental health problems. So there’s a great study out of University of Oregon. We looked at 10,000 families and they looked at parenting along two dimensions – parents who were firm versus permissive and then hostile versus loving. And if you take those two dimensions, you end up with four types of parents – permissive and hostile, permissive and firm, loving and permissive, loving and firm. And they looked at what were the consequences or the outcome of each parenting style.
Do you have a sense? What would be worse? What would be the worst one that creates the most trouble?
JAY SHETTY: You would think that it’s hostile and permissive.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Hostile and permissive the worst. What do you think is the second worst?
JAY SHETTY: Loving and permissive.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Loving and permissive, shocking. Because children need boundaries. And the loving and permissive ones had more mental health challenges than the hostile and firm. Now that’s not helpful, right? That creates anxiety. But children need boundaries. I often say God gave us parents until our frontal lobes develop, right? The front third of the brain, the most human part of the brain – focus, forethought, judgment, impulse control. And that’s why you need parents to help behind you. And the one of the big mistakes we make as a society is we abdicate parenting before their frontal lobes are developed.
So I’m like not a big fan of sending children away to college because you’re going to take their undeveloped prefrontal cortex and put them in a dorm with a whole bunch of other undeveloped prefrontal cortices – bad idea. And you know, I’ve learned this as a child psychiatrist, and kids away to school, the incidents – anxiety goes up, depression goes up, suicide goes up, addiction goes up. And it’s not a good thing.
JAY SHETTY: How were you able to go get around that with your kids going to college as well?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, I mean one of my daughters wanted to go to the University of Virginia. So I was like “That’s across your time.” I’m like “Now you have to go to some more I can drive to see you in three hours.”
JAY SHETTY: Wow. Wow. So yeah, that’s – it’s really interesting this limits and rules building mental fortitude that you talk about because it’s – it’s hard to know I think as a parent. And it comes back to the earlier point that you were saying that we’re just dealing with so much ourselves, like people are busy. They’re stressed. They are on their phone just trying to decompress after a long day.
Quality Time with Children
And what I liked about what you said was 20 minutes of no questions, no commands and no directions. That I think is really powerful and a special takeaway for people because it may be really hard to give quality time, but I love the definition of quality time becoming no directions, no commands and no questions. Because it seems like that’s what our relationship becomes about with children.
And what do all of those do if your relationship is just giving the kids commands, directions, questions? What ends up happening to the relationship?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: They shut down. And if you’re just in their space – and you know, as a child psychiatrist, you know, I’ve seen thousands of children over the years. And often parents go “He won’t talk to you. He doesn’t want to be here. He won’t talk to you.” I go “Yeah, it’s really hard to be me.” And I just sit there and I’ll play games with them. But while I’m playing a game with them, and a game they choose, they chat, you know. They talk about what’s going on in their dreams, what goes on at home, what goes on.
JAY SHETTY: What game would you play with them?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: I mean, we’ll play cards. We’ll play chutes and ladders. We’ll play Monopoly. We’ll play all sorts of different games. And one of my favorite games is the storytelling game where I’ll start a story and I’ll have a sentence, I’ll have a sentence, I’ll have a sentence. And you really get to see how their minds work.
JAY SHETTY: Why does that work? Why is that a great interaction point that allows them to open up?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Because kids – if you just say “Tell me your problem,” they’ll have no idea and they’ll freeze. If you play a game with them or you go for a walk with them, then they begin to open up if they know you’ll listen. And we just – we’re in a society that’s talking over each other. Parents are anxious and they want to solve things and they talk too much. So if I can get people to use less words and be more present, it’s gold for them.
Traits of Mentally Strong and Mentally Weak Children
JAY SHETTY: How do you know if a child is becoming more mentally strong or more mentally weak as you’re practicing some of these matters? What do you notice? What are the habits or the core traits of a mentally strong child and a mentally weak child?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: So mentally strong kids don’t believe everything they think. This is so important. Before in other episodes, we’ve talked about killing the ants, the automatic negative thoughts. I have a child’s book called “Captain Snout and the Superpower Questions” where I wrote specifically to teach kids to question their automatic thoughts.
And so a vulnerable child, so maybe wouldn’t say mentally weak, was to say vulnerable, is you notice they have stinking thinking. That they mind read, they fortune tell, they focus on what’s wrong rather than on what’s right. A strong child – still have those spots, but they’ll question them. They just won’t attach to what I call the different kinds of ants. And blame is like the worst. And you know, if you blame other people for your life, you become a victim and you become powerless. What is it I can do today to solve this problem? And that’s the essence of the book along with love and logic. What is it I can do today to solve this problem?
Repairing Mistakes as a Parent
JAY SHETTY: Yeah, obviously none of us are perfect and I think every parent is already judging themselves in how they are a parent. I think a lot of people carry that weight around and they carry that stress around – “If I’m not a good parent, I wish I could have handled that better. I shouldn’t have said that. I should have said that.” What’s a healthy way to repair a mistake you’ve made? Maybe you’ve said something you wish you didn’t say, you did something you shouldn’t have done, and you’ve done it a few times. What’s a healthy way to repair that bond?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, there’s a guilt cycle that people get into. They overreact and then they feel bad about it. So they don’t react and they let bad behavior go. And they let it go and they let it go and then they can’t stand it and then they explode. And then they feel guilty and so they don’t react and they don’t react and then they don’t react and then they overreact. And so the trick is when there’s behavior you don’t like, deal with it as opposed to let it go.
It’s like deal with it in the moment. And you’re going to make mistakes. Lord knows I’ve made lots of mistakes. But every day I win or I learn. Right. I’m working with an Olympic athlete that I just love so much, Alysha Newman. She’s a Canadian record holder for pole vaulting. And she’s such a mess when I saw her, she did my show, scanned my brain. And now she’s so mentally strong because every tournament she wins or she learns.
And as a parent, that’s a mindset. It’s you know, we had a really great day. And when you don’t have a great day, why didn’t we have a great day? And you think about it – in the book there’s all sorts of brain reasons why you didn’t have a great day. You didn’t sleep. You went too long without food. There’s the time change, you know, that has more bad days just because you know as a society, we become jet-lagged all at once. So if you can just be curious rather than being furious, it helps you so much.
So if we have a really great day, it’s like “Okay, why’d that happen?” And just be thoughtful. And the default is always firm and kind. The softer your voice, the more they pay attention to it. If you’re screaming, they tune you out and they get mad.
JAY SHETTY: It’s so interesting as I’m listening to you. I’m thinking as you gave in the example of the Olympic athlete, we need this for ourself right now at this age. Because our child self didn’t probably get this kind of parenting or wasn’t exposed to this. And so even that statement you just said that I either win or I learn, I think that’s a habit that any of us listening to this right now need to develop. Because I think just as we’re harsher on children or harsher on someone else, it comes from the fact that we’re harsh on ourselves. Like there’s this inner critic and this inner voice that breeds negativity. And as you said, the guilt cycle that continues.
Balancing Time as a Parent
It seems that that then becomes the externalized version is how we treat the kids. And then again, we feel guilty for doing that because we know it’s wrong. When you’re trying to become mentally strong yourself, but you feel like you don’t have time, your kids need dinner cooked, you need to do their homework with them, like I feel like there’s a massive loss of time, balance, the ability to cater to this. What do people do when they’re like “Okay, I’m just surviving. Like I’m just putting food on the table. I’m just about even surviving for myself to be able to switch on the TV in the evening after the kids are asleep. Like I get no time for myself.” How do we balance that time?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: That’s why special time is not two hours with the child. It’s doable. You’re playing the long game. And too often parents love their children so much. It’s “We’re going to do soccer and we’re going to do dance and we’re going to do music and we’re going to -” And it’s like stop that. You need time to spend with each other.
And you’re like “Well, but I have to do my homework with the children.” It’s like please don’t. That’s not what the schools want you to do. They want the children to do the homework. And if they don’t do it, let the kids pay the consequences. But then what parents do is they get into this fortune-telling thing. It’s like “Well then they won’t get into the best preschool and they won’t get into the best school and they won’t go to Harvard and their life will be terrible.” And like I went to a junior college or community college. I’m actually in the Hall of Fame at Orange Coast College. And I actually think many people – Mark Cuban actually said that it’s like most people should go to a community college because it’s such a low cost and it’s the same education, right?
But people have this idea of prestige is attached to my self-esteem. And it’s – and prestige is a French word. Comes from a French word for deceit, right. But I mean, I went to a community college. My life’s just awesome because I work hard, right. And ultimately another point – you never want to tell a child they’re smart. I mean parents get so proud. “You’re so smart.” Don’t ever do that. Go “You work hard.” Because if you tell them they’re smart and they can’t learn something, their self-esteem drops. If you go “I really like how hard you’re working” and they come up with something hard, they work harder.
And you also teach kids – because mentally strong people ask questions. And too often it’s like “Now I don’t want to ask questions so I don’t want to appear dumb.” It’s like mentally strong people ask questions. And so when I was in elementary school I’d never ask a question. And then I realized, because I was in the army and I took three years between high school and college, and I was able to grow up. And I’m like “Oh, you have to ask questions, right?” I learned that in the army – if you ask a question and somebody says no, ask somebody else because they’re more likely to say yes. Right. So I’ve learned that – don’t just accept no. But in school it’s like “Oh, let me ask questions.” But I don’t understand something – odds are people don’t understand as well.
JAY SHETTY: What are some of those other statements that parents say to kids that they think they’re saying the right thing, but they end up backfiring because they make it harder for the child to live up to that? What are some of those other statements?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: “It’ll be okay.” Like or “I’ll take care of it for you.” They’re having problems with another child at school. They immediately go to the principal’s office. They’re not listening to the child and going “So how do you think you can handle that?” Or “What is -” They go and they fix it. And that’s death to their self-esteem. Now of course if it’s dangerous or bullying or abuse, you have to step in and take care of it. But for the day-to-day stuff, “How do you think you can solve this?” as opposed to “Well, I had that problem when you were – when I was your age and this is what I did. And this is what you should do.” Don’t do that because it steals their self-esteem. It steals their agency.
“What is it you can do?” “I’m rooting for you” rather than “Why – that’s a dumb decision.”
JAY SHETTY: Yeah.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: “I’m rooting for you.”
JAY SHETTY: That’s so huge in our friendships. It’s so huge in a marriage. It’s – it’s huge with kids. I think it’s so easy to just say “This is what I did. This is what you should do. This is the right way to do it.” This is easy. And we think we’re – we’re basically doing a shortcut because we’re not listening. We’re not actually bonding. We’re not connecting. And we’re trying to jump to a conclusion that hopefully we think solves the issue.
And a lot of this comes back to what we both mentioned in this conversation, is that there’s this subconscious ego attachment to the child succeeding as being a reflection of our self-esteem, our self-worth. Our self-esteem gets wrapped up in our child’s self-worth and self-esteem. And now, you know, subconsciously, we’re living our dreams through them. That’s not as basic as saying “I want my kid to be a doctor because I am,” but there’s other more subtle versions of that.
How do people disconnect from that ego? Because it seems to be so subtle and so hidden, but it’s there. And I think everyone notices it with their parents when their parents are acting in that way. But almost when we become parents, we – we’re completely oblivious to that ego.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: And it’s so important. It’s often so toxic if someone is living an unrealized life that they pour a lot of it into their child. And it makes these kids miserable. And it doesn’t give them a sense of agency. It constrains them. And they often rebel against it as opposed to “What do you want to do? It’ll make you a good living so I don’t have to support you.” And I love my six children, but I never want to have to live with them, right. So I want to create competent people who can care for themselves. It’s like “Oh, go live your dream whether or not you can take care of yourself.” And that’s going to set them up to be miserable. If you’re dependent on someone else, you’re miserable.
Entitled people are never happy. Another thing is – and I posted this on TikTok and it got like 7 million views – hallmark of mental strength: I don’t do things for people who do not treat me with respect.
JAY SHETTY: Whoa.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: So, you know, your child misbehaves – you’ve loved them so much, it doesn’t matter. You, you know, give them everything they want anyway. It’s death. I don’t do nice things for people who I feel don’t treat me with respect. It doesn’t mean you don’t feed them. Of course you feed them. But you’re not taking them to the store and you’re not doing nice things for them. I mean, you need to teach them there are consequences.
The Importance of Attachment
So the third part – so it’s goal setting, bonding. So much there. And so many mental illnesses are attached to attachments that become broken.
JAY SHETTY: Could you walk us through this?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: So John Bowlby’s sort of the famous attachment psychologist. And he said that if we’re not connected to our moms or dads, it puts us at great risk for mental health problems. And he’s absolutely right. And often the break in the bond between your mother or your father – or it can be any primary caretaker – creates this rage inside of you. And then you feel guilt about the rage.
And so you attack yourself. And you know, many people who live with this negative chatter in their head, and it’s often that specific dynamic. That they’re furious their mother, their father, you know, perhaps a divorce happened when they were four or five, or they had a sibling die when they were four. Something happened. They get really angry, but that’s not appropriate because these are the people that feed me. So rage, guilt about the rage, and then self-attack. And they’d live with that their whole lives.
I can’t tell you the number of people – and when you’re four or five or six, you think of yourself at the center of the world. And so if something good happens, you sort of think it’s because of you. If something bad happens, you think it’s because of you. And you end up with this chronic sense of being bad.
And there’s a specific type of therapy I like. It’s called intensive short-term dynamic psychotherapy. And it’s often getting to the feelings underneath. And rage and attachment and guilt about the rage are often a significant piece of it.
JAY SHETTY: Sometimes it’s hard because I feel like a lot of people may be feeling like, you know, I don’t understand my child. Like they’re angry, they’re upset, they – you know, they kind of want to disconnect. What do you do in that situation? Where do you start?
Understanding Your Child’s Behavior
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, I think you first start with the simple things – time. And look at what they’re eating, because that matters. I have one patient who would go on a rage whenever he got red dye.
People go “Red dye?” Yeah, red dye number 40. And so like every sweet and candy – think of red vines.
JAY SHETTY: Yeah…
DR. DANIEL AMEN: it’s even in cough syrup for children or hard candies. Red dye number 40. And he would go on a rage. And when they would take away red dye, he’d be fine. But sometimes you get it accidentally and he’d rage. And so I actually scanned him, you know, that’s what I do. I look at people’s brains. And so we scanned him – no red dye for a month and his brain was healthy. We gave him red vines that have red dye number 40 in it and his brain went – like it exploded. That dramatic hyperactivity in his brain.
And so if you’re really struggling with your child and you use the principles Dr. Fay and I talked about in this book and you’re still struggling, it’s probably a good idea to get him assessed. And on average, it’s years between the time a child first has his symptom – anxiety, depression, OCD, ADD – between they have a symptom and they get assessed. And so many bright people go “I’d never give my kids drugs.” And it’s like “He’s diabetic – you give him drugs. If he had heart disease, you give him drugs.” It’s like – and I’m not advocating drugs, right. I mean, I own a supplement company, but I’m not opposed. If I do all the things I know how to do, then I use medicine to do it.
People like don’t really see the brain as an organ, right? They have to get the progression. Your brain – physical function of your brain creates your mind. And if your brain’s not right, your mind’s not right. And so what are all the ways that a mind can be troubled, right?
So if you have a child that’s not sleeping, that has nightmares, that has tantrums that won’t go away, they don’t socially connect, they’re obsessive – it’s like at some point you have to go “What’s going on in their brain?” And there’s a whole section in the book on brain health for kids. Of course got to model it is as a parent. But what you feed them matters. How much sleep they get matters. I have another really fun book called “Time for Bed, Sleepyhead,” which is a hypnotic bedtime story for children. I actually used to do it with my daughter Breanne when she was three a day from three until eight. She loved the story so much.
The Four Circles of a Child’s Life
And think of your kids in four big circles. They have a biology, so we talked about their brain. They have a psychology – how they think. They have a social circle – what their environment like. And there’s a spiritual circle, which most child psychiatrists wouldn’t touch, but it’s sort of like “Why do you care? You know, why do you think you’re on the planet? What’s your sense of meaning and purpose?” Because purposeful people are happier. Purposeful people – I mean, what am I on purpose, right? They – they live longer. And so nurturing those four circles, so important for the kids.
JAY SHETTY: What is – what is loving discipline look like? Because I think it’s – it sounds good, like we were like “Yeah, I would love to be disciplined. I’d love to be loving.” And often we don’t even figure out what that means in the workplace, let alone with kids. We’re either loving or disciplined, but we’re not – I think it should be both.
Rules and Discipline
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, you know, we haven’t gotten to rules. I think family should have them. Society has rules – like tell the truth, do what mom and dad say the first time. I love that rule because you know, your chance of abusing the child – if you tell a child to do something five times, your chance of abusing that child just went up significantly.
And so if you have the expectation they’ll do things the first time, it’s like “Caitlin, take – you know, I want you to take out the trash like in the next half hour.” And if she doesn’t, it’s like “Sweeter, you have the choice. You can take it out now or you can have this consequence and then you can take it out. I don’t care. It’s up to you.” And I love that part of not being attached to it. I love her. I’m really clear. And she’s getting that consequence if she doesn’t move.
Like stop threatening them and then not following through, because you teach them that you have to tell them and get angry and be a bit crazy in order for them to do what you ask them to do.
JAY SHETTY: And I like the rules and rhythms and routines. I remember in my home, after dinner, me and my sister would clean up. And we had a little rotor of who washed up that day and who cleaned the table that day. And it was just something that went around every day. We take it in turns. And my sister was four years younger than me and we just do it together. And it became this thing that we just did and it became natural. It became a habit.
And it made us accountable and responsible to each other as well as well as our parents. And it was a really neat way of kind of giving us that rules and – you know, I think sometimes we think of rules is like strict rules and guidelines, but actually it can be used to rhythm in a routine in. And it’s building competence.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Yeah, and skill. And you’re part of the family rather than you’re entitled to live in that family. And the earlier you start, the better it is for kids. I mean, it’s – it’s hard if you’ve not spent any time with children by the time they’re 14, their friends are more important than you are. And that’s the heartbreaking thing I’ve learned is if you’re not spending time with them, their friends will take your place. And they may not have the advice, they may not have the right ear for you. And it makes them more vulnerable to all the scary stuff that’s on social media.
The Dangers of Social Media
JAY SHETTY: Well, I was going to ask you about that. I think a lot of challenges that parents have today are “My child is addicted to social media. They’re addicted to their phone. Forget spending time with them. I can’t even get them to look up and make eye contact.” What have you seen? What have you experienced?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: There’s a whole section on technology. Yes, is you can have technology. And I recommend you delay it as long as humanly possible because it’s not in their best interest. And but you can have technology as long as it’s not creating a problem in the family. And if we’re not connecting, that’s a problem in the family. If you’re at dinner, now you can’t be on your phone all dinner and tell your child that can’t be on theirs, right. So probably everybody should put their phones away so you can connect, right. Modeling – mentally strong parents ultimately raise mentally strong kids.
But the problem with social media – and you’re on social media, I’m on social media – it creates this toxic level of self-absorption. You know, who’s looking at me? Who am I looking at? Who’s following me? And self-absorbed people are never, never happy.
JAY SHETTY: But that’s become such a challenge now, right? That it’s – it’s the thing everyone’s addicted to. It’s the thing everyone wants. It’s like you said, parents are on their phones. They’re not going to stop straightaway. What do you see being the silver lining or the light and at the end of a tunnel that’s going to have that breakthrough with a child? Like what – what do you think that would be?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, you know, I’d go back to delay it as long as you can. Even you know, if the child’s like “Everybody’s doing it” – because everybody’s not doing it. But it’s – it’s like “I love you so much, I’m going to protect you.” All the studies, all of them, say that it makes kids more vulnerable to bad things.
JAY SHETTY: And then when they’re doing to our brain – what is social media doing to our brain?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Well, it’s addicting, man. There’s a book I love called “Thrilled to Death.” It’s continually pressing on your nucleus accumbens that produces dopamine. Continually pressing on the pleasure centers in your brain. But the problem with that is the more you press on them, they begin to become numb. And you need more and more. And you need more and more excitement, more and more stimulation in order to feel anything at all.
And you know, I see it with the wonderful famous people I’ve been blessed to see. I see it in kids who are – I mean, they’re – actually programs set up. And I’ve sent a number of kids away to video game internet addiction programs. And when they get away from it, they become sweet again. I had one kid whose parents took away video games. He broke up all the furniture in his room. And I’m like “He needs a program.”
Well, we decided to do is take away all the gadgets. Good. And I scanned him a month later and then I scanned him while he was playing one of the violent video games he was addicted to. And it deactivated his frontal lobes and his left temporal lobe, which is an area that’s often involved in violence. Like that’s a good thing.
Dealing with Divorce
JAY SHETTY: What about parents that are – you know, parents that are going through a divorce, going through a difficult time? What’s the healthiest way to communicate that to a child? I know — I know couples that are staying together for the children. They don’t want to get divorced even though they don’t have a healthy relationship. I know others who are – had the divorce, but they’re so scared about how that impacts the child. What have you seen through the neuroscience and research around when you’re staying together or breaking up?
DR. DANIEL AMEN: So it’s not good. Divorce is not good for the child. But staying in a chronically unhappy, conflicted, negative relationship is worse. So neither is good. I often say to the people I see, the best thing you can do for your child is love your spouse. The best thing you can do – model a healthy relationship. But you know, there’s no education in school on how to have a healthy relationship, right. So there should be. That would be helpful.
When you go through a divorce, be really careful not to talk bad about the other person because that child is half you and half them. If you’re talking bad about their mother, they feel bad about themselves. Plus it increases cortisol in their body and makes them much more likely to be sick. So bad thing. Often if you’re going to get divorced, go to counseling together and figure out how we are going to parent together.
Raising mentally strong kids is great. It’s like “We’re going to parent this way, you know. We have goals. We have time together. We have rules.” One thing we didn’t talk about yet is notice what you like more than what you don’t, right. There’s – all my whole penguin story is in there, which I think I’ve probably told here before. But I’d love that. Notice what you like every day. You’re shaping your child by what you notice. You’re shaping your partner. You’re shaping your employees. You’re shaping everybody by what you pay attention to. And so notice what you like more than what you don’t. And that really solidifies the kind part of effective parenting.
Mindfulness for Children
JAY SHETTY: I’ve also been thinking a lot about – I was sharing with some families over last week when I was doing some events – this idea around how mindfulness and meditation can look very different for children. And so I don’t think all kids need to be forced to sit in one place and close their eyes. I also think that mindfulness can be an activity of “Hey, when you’re outside today, see if you can find as many red things as possible. So when you go outdoors today, come back and give me a list of things that you found that were red.”
Or “Can you find as many leaves that look like stars or any stones that look like stars today when you’re out and about?” And I think mindfulness can actually become alive when we’re actually living it and breathing it, when they’re out and about, as opposed to this feeling of kids need to learn it in a certain way. What have you seen with – and they don’t sit well, yeah.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: It doesn’t mean they have ADHD. It may mean their nervous system isn’t fully myelinated, right. It’s not fully myelinated. For people that don’t know what that means – when you’re born, you actually don’t have much myelin in your brain. As we develop, our neurons get wrapped with a white fatty substance called myelin. And a myelinated neuron works 10 to a hundred times faster than an unmyelinated one. And our – when we’re two months old, our occipital lobes in the back, vision, become myelinated. And so when you look at a baby and smile, they smile back. They don’t do it as newborns because their visual cortex is in working fast.
And then slowly, myelination goes from the back and comes to the front. One finishes about when we’re 25. And so expecting the child to act like an adult – bad, bad, bad. But you can teach them self-soothing techniques from the age of four. I think take a big breath, really slow, slow as you can. Breathe it out as slow as you can. And that’ll come when they get anxious.
JAY SHETTY: So, you know, yeah, what I’m hearing from you, it’s really helping them develop the tools that they’re going to need long-term. The challenge is we need to know what those tools are them – for them, for ourselves – to really believe in them. Because otherwise we – like you said, we rush to solve their problems. We try and make up for their losses. They never get to become independent, resilient individuals.
The Meaning of Love in Parenting
And talk to us about where love fits into all of this. What does love look like with your child beyond time and beyond certain things you said? What does love really look like? What does love mean? Because I think when you think about what parents ultimately want, they want to be loving parents. That’s what everyone’s do. They want to love their child. But love often comes as overcompensating. Love often translates as over-solving, over-fixing, overdoing, and overwhelming and forcing them to be overachievers. And so even though we love them, we end up doing all these things that cause them pain.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: So love is when you want to bring their homework to school, it’s not. Because you love them and you want the best for them, which is becoming mentally strong. That’s love. Love is putting away your phone and spending time with them. Love is when they go and when they’re 10 and go “All my friends have a phone. What if a school shooter comes and I can’t get a hold of you?” Children are manipulative, quite frankly. All of us are manipulative. And it’s like, you know, they’re just too many risks with that. That’s love – is setting boundaries in a kind, consistent way. And ultimately, love is you developing these tools so you can be firm and kind at the same time.
JAY SHETTY: Beautiful. Dr. Daniel Amen, everyone. The book is called “Raising Mentally Strong Kids: How to Combine the Power of Neuroscience with Love and Logic to Grow Confident, Kind, Responsible, and Resilient Children and Young Adults.” If you don’t have a copy already, go and grab yours right now.
Dr. Amen, what a gift to talk to you again about this subject. Like we’ve said, you’ve had come on many many times. First time that we’ve really dove into kids and raising them. And I’m so grateful that you put this book together for everyone else to read and share. And I hope that parents will develop book clubs around it, communities around it, because I think this conversation of raising mentally strong kids needs to be at the center of our schools, our homes, our families. Because it’s going to set them up and set our society and world up to so much success. So thank you so much for doing this honestly.
DR. DANIEL AMEN: Thank you, my friend.
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