Read the full transcript of geopolitical analyst Pepe Escobar in conversation with independent journalist and host Danny Haiphong on “This Putin, China & BRICS BOMBSHELL Buries Dollar”, August 31, 2025.
Trump 2.0 and the Russia-China Strategic Partnership
PEPE ESCOBAR: Let’s assume that Trump 2.0 is very much aware of what’s going to happen between Russia and China. First of all, Putin and Xi Jinping are going to meet again. September 3, Beijing, Commemoration of the eight year anniversary of the end of the Second World War from the Chinese point of view. And of course the Japanese occupation of China, which for the Chinese, even more important than the war against Nazi fascist powers.
The Vladivostok Forum, where I can imagine that there will be more Americans than last year, for instance, this year, because they will be there already. We want to be part of this huge Russian national interest drive to a super economic infrastructure network to be set up in the Arctic and in the Far east at the same time, which is usually the basic theme of the Vladivostok Economic Forum.
Obviously people around Trump must have told him, “Look, you know that Putin talked to Xi before he talked to you and they’re going to talk again after Alaska.” So this is where the top BRICS connection, once again, I have to re-emphasize this to all of you, our audience, they are acting in very, very close conjunction, especially Russia and China.
Of course Putin is going to brief Modi, Lula and everybody else about, we don’t know how deep because for the moment, the agreements between Putin and Trump, they were more or less solidified in Alaska. They are secret for everybody and they don’t want any leaks from the American side and from the Russian side.
For instance, what the best informed Russian diplomats, analysts, what they got so far is not too many details. It’s the stuff that I received this morning from Moscow, and it’s already a lot. But as you can see, no details, no specifics. But it’s very, very important and it’s all connected.
The timing, the overall, let’s say, purpose for Trump on how to get a reset of relations linked to business and the fact that if the US are kept out of the whole Russia, China development, economic integration and all that, that’s it. You’re out of the big picture. Because this is the big picture among BRICS because Russia and China are driving this interconnection and this economic integration all across Eurasia.
So of course we don’t have a Brzezinski type inside Trump 2.0. When we look at the Dream Team on one side and the rookies on the other side. Did you see the beginning then when it was five to five, I did the breakdown of the Dream Team and the rookies and it was, wow, very embarrassing. Very, very embarrassing. How can you compare Lavrov with little Marco Rubio? And how can you compare Ushakov, old fox with Witkoff.
Trump’s Strategy to Split Russia and China
DANNY HAIPHONG: Donald Trump’s administration, Donald Trump in particular, very aware of BRICS. Very aware not only of BRICS, but of course the top BRICS, Russia and China and what they’re doing. But this is how Donald Trump frames how he’s dealt with this. And I believe that normalization with Russia could very well be a push to do what Donald Trump has said since before he was elected, which is to pull them apart. But this is exactly the point he makes here.
TRUMP: : Something that was unthinkable. He drove and Obama too. I stopped it. And then, you know, tragedy happen. Actually, it was a tragedy. The election was a tragedy. But he did something that was unthinkable. He drove China and Russia together. That’s not good. If you are just a minor student of history. It’s the one thing you didn’t want to do because they’re basically natural enemies. Russia has tremendous amounts of land, China has tremendous amounts of people and China needs Russia land.
DANNY HAIPHONG: This is how it’s interpreted. It’s terrible, right? And China wants Russian land.
PEPE ESCOBAR: So childish, isn’t it?
The BRICS Threat According to Washington
DANNY HAIPHONG: Lindsey Graham. I’ll just play this really quick. You know, Lindsey Graham over and over and over again acts like he’s the foreign policy chief of the Trump administration, but he always ends every comment on the conflict now with punishing BRICS.
Lindsey Graham: The news you made in this interview to me is earth shattering. President Trump said that Putin wants him to meet with Zelensky. That Putin is now apparently agreeing to a trilateral meeting between Putin, Zelensky and Trump. That’s the biggest breakthrough of the night.
I’ve never heard that before. If we have that meeting, I think there will be an honorable and just end of this war before Christmas, well before Christmas. If that meeting doesn’t come about, then I think Trump’s going to have to use severe consequences again against Putin and those who buy his oil and gas.
DANNY HAIPHONG: It’s no secret that normalization is a big part of the quote unquote strategy, but it has a lot to do with BRICS, I believe. Your thoughts?
The Historical Reality of Russia-China Partnership
PEPE ESCOBAR: Well, once again, Trump proves that he has absolutely no clue specifically about the Russia China strategic partnership. It’s not the Obama administration that brought them close together. Obviously we could not expect Trump to go to the Vladivostok forum, for instance, 10 years ago, 2000, even before that, if I remember well, already by 2013, 2014, let’s say 10 years ago, 2015, they were already discussing a closer integration in Vladivostok, Russia and China.
That was in the beginning of the Xi Jinping era. Xi Jinping era started in 2012. 2013 was the beginning of the New Silk Roads. By 2015, the Russians were already saying, “We are part of the new Silk Roads. We want to do a project side by side with China.” And usually these were discussed in the St.
Petersburg forum, usually in June, and in Vladivostok every September.
This was, don’t forget, very, very important. This was already a reaction against the Obama administration, so called Pivot to Asia, which was an idea that started in the State Department by Kurt Campbell. He conceptualized Pivot to Asia. Hillary appropriated the concept. She did it at the time. She wrote a long piece on foreign affairs saying that this was her contribution and obviously Pivot to Asia. In the end, nothing happened. But Russia and China were paying very close attention.
This was when BRICS were still developing little by little the first half of the previous decade. But once again, 10 years ago, by 2015, the relationship was very, very close. And after Maidan, after 2014, start to pick up speed.
Obviously, to imagine that Trump would have done his own homework. He doesn’t do his homework on anything. But at least somebody on Trump 2.0 could get 10 minutes to explain the basics to him, or give him an article, something, nothing, of course. So he doesn’t know, and he still doesn’t know how. The degree of collaboration and interaction between the top BRICS after he launched his tariff dementia overdrive.
He has no idea how he brought them together. It has nothing to do with the past. Trump brought the BRICS even closer together because of his tariff war. That’s the number one point we never had before. A situation where we had four or five of the top BRICS leaders exchanging phone calls day after day among themselves.
The fact that they were paying very close attention to Alaska once again, because they knew that Putin was representing them. And this, let’s say this, I would say a very, very little victory for BRICS for the moment. There won’t be extra sanctions against them, at least for the moment.
The Art of Strategic Flattery
So this implies that the Russians have to keep oiling the Trump machine, including the flattery machine, and Putin is a master at that. I’m sure you all noticed yesterday when Trump was glowing, saying that Putin told me that “this war would never have happened if I was in charge.” So this is the art of strategic flattery. And Putin and people around him, they really know how to apply it. Maybe even Lavrov could have told that to Trump in the room during the meeting.
So Trump still doesn’t understand BRICS. He knows the only thing he knows that BRICS are a threat. Why? Essentially because of the de-dollarization. They don’t even talk about. They are doing de-dollarization without calling it de-dollarization.
Of course there is the reverse Nixon angle as well. He might think that he would be able to apply a reverse Nixon. This means that he doesn’t understand everything around the Russia, China Strategic Partnership. And now it’s getting, wow. It is already as close as it can be. Historically is closest ever, getting closer. And Wang Yi is saying every week, right, Danny, “We still have margin to keep going up.” It’s a rocket, it’s an interstellar rocket.
The Strategic Partnership during BRICS, when I was talking to our academic Chinese friends over there, they were all complaining the lack of trust between India and China. Three to four weeks later, Wang Yi in person is going to talk to Jaishankar in India. That’s extraordinary. Of course, this all has to do with this closer BRICS integration.
And what Lula said a few days ago totally applies. This was one of Lula’s best moments in these past few years. He said “We are working towards a comprehensive and coordinated BRICS position against the tariff one.” So I wonder if anybody on Trump 2.0 understands this process. Probably not. Probably not.
BRICS Currency Experiments and De-dollarization
DANNY HAIPHONG: Well, we’ve talked about how difficult, complicated, how it might not be possible in the near future, but he’s even talking about we need to experiment with our own currency together. And just by taking that leap, I’ve been saying this, just by taking that leap. He’s putting a huge amount of positive pressure on BRICS to continue on with the de-dollarization without the de-dollarization term, as you called it.
PEPE ESCOBAR: Yes, and this was, this is where we were, Danny, at the end of the BRICS summit in Kazan last year. Then there was a long lull. November, December, January, February, March, almost five months, nothing happened. The Brazilians only woke up by March to April that they had a summit in early July and there was nothing happening in typical Brazil. At the last minute they delivered. It was a huge success. Everybody worked their asses off, Sherpas, everybody, BRICS business council people, you name it, all the committees, etc.
Of course, it was not by accident that the day after the end of the BRICS summit in Rio, Trump came with his renewed offensive against BRICS. He sensed the danger. And that’s the merit of the success of the BRICS summit in Rio in the end, where of course there was no spectacular breakthrough, but basically there was once again very important to stress that. All linked to the final declaration, the real declaration, the final declaration. “We are BRICS. This is what we’re doing. We have a clarity of purpose. Nothing will make us deviate from our purpose. And that’s it. This is our list of intentions” that was very, very serious.
They are working on several levels already. And the most important thing is increased trade using their own currencies and partners, including partners currencies as well. The 10 full members and the 10 partners. And of course, the immense possibilities of growth.
The Expanding BRICS Network
After the tariff war, the tariff war goes against the partners as well. It’s not only against BRICS, for instance, the Southeast Asians. And this closer interconnection that we didn’t have before with BRICS, Southeast Asia now is in full force inside BRICS with a full member. Indonesia and Malaysia, Vietnam and Thailand. Very, very important. And when the Americans look at that and say, “Oh my God, these are escaping from it.” Yes, it is escaping from you as we speak. Absolutely.
Of course, two Central Asians, very, very important as partners, immensely important. So the thing is, when we look at the spectrum of people on Trump 2.0 in positions of power or in positions of implementing policy, do these people understand anything BRICS related that’s going on? Obviously not. Obviously not. And many of them are neocon. Even if they are not nominal neocons, they are neocon minded.
The Impossibility of Breaking Russia from China
DANNY HAIPHONG: And they see BRICS, the entirety of the establishment. And Donald Trump himself sees BRICS as kind of like these chess pieces to knock off a board. And what’s so interesting about what just happened between Putin and Trump is that, you know, I do believe that there is maybe a naivete that they could break the United States, could break Russia from China, but Russia goes in and says, “Yeah, we’ll talk about normalization with you, but there’s never going to be a concession that Russia makes where it says, oh, we’ll normalize with you and we will move away from China.” There’s no way that that happens.
Your thoughts about this? Because I think this gets into the misunderstanding of, yes, there can be short term economic gain for the US and Russia for normalization, but to think that Russia will abandon the east, abandon the global south, abandon the BRICS, is no way one just not even on the table. And they say it all the time, but your assessment that will be in.
The Vladivostok Forum Revelation
PEPE ESCOBAR: Vladivostok, which is a great thing. You know why? Because at the end, the plan a recession. Who’s going to address the plenary session? Vladimir Putin in person and usually Danny, he speaks for three, four hours. We’re going to have Trump putting directly the post Alaska thing for the first time live because during the parade in China, probably he’s not going to speak anything about Alaska. He’s going to speak about it in Vladivostok, the Russia, Chinese position, very, very clear not only on what was discussed in Alaska, but the bigger geoeconomic, geopolitical discussion.
The SCO Summit: Putin, Xi, and Modi Unite
DANNY HAIPHONG: Because as we head into the last bit here, last 10 minutes or so, talk about the significance of the SCO. I mean we have Modi, he’s going to be there. There’s going to be an exchange, a meeting between Xi and Putin. I mean Xi and Modi there will be likely with Putin too, but Xi and Modi are going to meet.
And this is again another example in my opinion of the ways in which Trump, as you said, has really brought BRICS together. But talk about the significance of this. We haven’t been able to get to it in the time intervening.
PEPE ESCOBAR: Well, Danny, can you imagine anybody on Trump 2.0 that understands the SCO? Forget it. SCO, CEO, CEO. I know it’s not CEO, it’s SCO. Well, that kind of stuff, if they don’t understand BRICS, SCO for them is something like that comes out from Pluto, you know, very, very important.
Years ago, the first guy who actually said in the near future it’s inevitable that BRICS and SCO will merge. Who was that? Lukashenko. Old Lukashenko. He’s always looking ahead and by the way, he caused immense impression on Trump. Trump was absolutely fascinated by Lukashenko. So he’s quite something and he always is looking long term. He is also a member of the SCO. Very, very important.
Well, the fact that we’re going to have Putin, Xi and Modi in the same room in Tianjin, China discussing basically the security of Eurasia face to face for the first time in the previous summit. Was it in the previous two summits? I think the three of them were not together for some reasons. Xi didn’t go or Putin, oh sorry, Modi didn’t go with that.
Now the three of them and I hope, oh my God, Pezeshkian is going to be there because Pezeshkian is. It’s hard. I’m trying to discussions that we have with our Iranian friends, but he’s a tough pill to swallow after Raisi but okay, at least if he’s there, these four top BRICS will be on the same table, the four leaders.
And this involves everything, including the next Israel attack against Iran, with or without the US. So they need to discuss this among themselves. Common position once again.
SCO’s Evolution: From Security to Economic Cooperation
So now the SCO these past few years is something we already discussed before. It has evolved from an organization basically centered on security and counterterrorism to economic cooperation. They discuss economic cooperation projects. These past summits in St. Petersburg this year and Vladivostok last year. The SCO roundtables are immensely interesting and they discuss economics. I think we talked about that.
Can you believe that last year in St. Petersburg, in one of the SCO tables, the Afghans were on the table and they were discussing economic investment in Afghanistan with Russian ministers, among others. Amazing. So this is what they do.
So this is what they’re going to be discussing in Tianjin, August 31, September 1. That’s the end of the summit. And of course with the Alaska in the background, even more important because they will be discussing again the Russian concept of Eurasian Wide Security, the Greater Eurasian Partnership, which it’s the official Russian motto for Eurasia.
Integration and Indivisibility of Security, which is what the Russians proposed to the previous American administration in December 2021. Indivisibility for all of you. Western Europe, Eastern Europe, post Soviet space, US etc. They’ll be discussing this once again on a Eurasian frame, a wider Eurasian framework.
So if anybody on Trump 2.0, they think that can break BRICS and break the SCO at the same time. Bye. Bye. It’s not going to happen.
DANNY HAIPHONG: You know, I was in Yining, which is a city in the Kazakh Autonomous Prefecture in Xinjiang.
PEPE ESCOBAR: Beautiful. So beautiful there.
DANNY HAIPHONG: And I visited a horse museum run by Uyghurs. Actually. I don’t know if people can see this, so I think now we can. I’m just going to zoom in. Shanghai Cooperation Organization Horse THEMED Culture MUSEUM so this is, I mean, it’s security and it’s also, it’s everything. It’s economic, cultural.
And if anybody knows about Xinjiang in China, they know that horses are absolutely just so important. So you have Uyghur artists, Kazakh artists selling their art with their horse art. And also there was a whole thing about preserving a certain kind of horse, very small horse. I didn’t really understand that part of it, but it was great.
But it just shows the significance of the SCO and how it goes much beyond and BRICS too much beyond. Just the idea of building some kind of other pole from the United States hegemony. It’s also really about building and strengthening ties amongst each other.
Trump’s Dilemma: Fighting Multiple Fronts
PEPE ESCOBAR: In a certain sense, the ball is in Trump’s court. He won’t be able to sell it, but he’ll have to try to explain to this immense universe anti peace in Ukraine and even anti normalization of US Russia relations what was discussed in Alaska and what should come next.
Of course, Zelensky is a two bit actor. He doesn’t count for anything. And his successor has already been chosen. And that’s an enormous problem already, because if the successor, via dodgy means, is really Zaluzhny, we’re back to square one. So we would have to have real popular elections in Ukraine, which is still a prospect as distant as another Milky Way.
And of course, don’t forget the people who run the show in the US and the Atlanticist elites and those famous families that obviously we cannot pronounce their names. They are very, very pissed at what happened in Alaska yesterday. And they will come back with full force, there’s no question about that.
So Trump now has to fight all these at the same time. Will he have the stamina for it? We don’t know. Will he have enough power against all of them? Probably not.
But his plan B is already ongoing. He already has the headline if nothing works. “Look, I tried everything we discussed in detail with Putin, assuming there is the next meeting in the Russian Federation. But Europe and Kiev, they don’t want peace. So this is their problem. It’s their war, let them fight it.” So this is. So he already has an escape route, which from his point of view, which basically is okay, let’s try to do a deal. If there’s no deal, there is a sub deal. It’s already cool.
Russia’s Strategic Position
And from the Russian point of view, it’s quite similar. In fact, they didn’t need Alaska, they didn’t need this summit. They only went because they received, once again, Ushakov, an acceptable proposal. If the proposal doesn’t materialize, they could even continue to invest side by side with the Trump administration in some sort of normalization of U.S. Russia relations, even bypassing Ukraine.
It’s going to be immensely difficult, but business is business, right? And elimination of set of very directed targeted sanctions against Russia. This is possible. Trump can do this with an executive order. Very, very simple and of course, very, very important.
Danny and all of you, the SMO continues, the war continues, the war will not stop. Very important. They already agreed, according to Trump himself, no ceasefire. So this means the SMO keeps going on. Can you imagine what could happen within the next three months, assuming things go extremely slow, which they will obviously in the next three months, the collapse of practically the whole front line is practically a given.
And then once again we go back to Medinsky in one of those Istanbul meetings, “okay, you don’t want our deal now. Next time it’s not going to be four regions, it’s going to be eight.” Quite possible, quite possible.
So let’s say that both sides, they have their plan B already and of course they are, let’s say, let’s try to be magnanimous. They are putting their faith on, okay, let’s reset our relations, let’s see if plan A works. If it doesn’t, this reset at least between Trump 2.0 and Moscow is quite possible in many levels.
The BRICS Factor in US-Russia Relations
And of course there’s a major problem inbuilt in all that. This will also depend on how Trump is going to treat the other BRICS from now on because we don’t know of course Danny and all of you to what level they discussed BRICS on the table.
But I’m sure Putin especially tried to show Trump, “Look, I am one of, we are one of the top members of BRICS and of course we are all under assault and we’re all under sanctions by your government. Is this going to change or are you willing to reconsider many of these sanctions?”
That’s part of the secret part of the deal, right that we don’t know unless there are leaks on both sides but apparently they were instructed to be extra tight lipped on both sides.
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