Transcript: Our Thoughts on Charlie Kirk and The Tommy Robinson Rally – Triggernometry Podcast

You are putting a target on their back.

Not only are these statements not the same, in actual fact, the claim that words are violence is another way of justifying the killing of Charlie Kirk and people like him. Because what you’re saying is his opinions are offensive to me. That is the same as violence. Well, if it’s the same as violence, then you’re necessarily justified. If you look at the way people think, if I use violence towards you, most people would agree that you are entitled to use violence back to me.

So we’re not saying words are violence. On the contrary, we are saying words are not violence. And this is another important part of this whole conversation. Words are not violence. And when someone says something that offends you, you’re not entitled to use violence against them. But when you label and smear somebody as a fascist and a Nazi, you are putting a target on their back.

The Left’s Celebration of Political Violence

The thing that I think we have to concede here, I mean, you talk about the reaction from some people on the right, and we’ll get to it, because a lot of it has been really constructive and sensible and accurate and wise. Some of it’s been deranged, as you’d expect. But if you want to talk about deranged, you have to concede now that there is a sizable number of people on the left who openly condone and celebrate the murder of their political opponents. That’s a fact. That is what we saw.

Look, for balance, we should also say that there are a lot of reasonable people on the left. I’ve had hundreds of messages from people who are going, “Look, I don’t agree with Charlie Kirk. I don’t even agree with you, frankly. But this is outrageous. And the way people reacted to this is outrageous. And this is completely unacceptable. And I agree for our country, I agree for our society.” So we have seen that.

But let’s be honest, among young people in particular, the belief that words are violence and therefore you are entitled to use violence against people whose words you disagree with is widespread.

The Oxford Union President’s Shocking Response

FRANCIS FOSTER: Of course, and we saw that with the case of the Oxford Union president, who debated Charlie Kirk at the Oxford Union. When he heard that he had been assassinated, he used the words “let’s go,” and then openly endorsed violence against political enemies or those people he deems to be incorrect or wrong and is quite happy to admit that.

So you’re going at the most prestigious debating chamber in the world, where people go from across the globe to debate, to share ideas, to be in that particular cauldron. You are advocating that it is acceptable if somebody says something that you disagree with that you think is wrong, you think it’s acceptable to kill them. That shows a moral rot at the very heart of our culture.

The left need to be quite clear. And there have been people on the left – Cenk Uygur’s actually been very good on this – who have condemned this, but everybody needs to come out and be blunt and be honest and say, “No, we cannot have this.”

Charlie said this himself. There was a very moving interview where someone asked him why he does this, because he said, “Because if we stop talking, we’re going to end up at civil war.” But when you kill your enemies for talking, what are you going to stop them doing? You’re going to stop them talking. And if we carry on down this path, that’s where we end up.

Acknowledging Past Rhetoric

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah. And look, I respect Cenk for the way he’s reacted to this. I also have to say, and I said this to his face when I was on Piers Morgan, and we shouldn’t shy away from this now. The way he’s reacted to this particular incident is an attempt to dial down the tensions. And I think he’s right to do that, and I respect that.

But you also have to acknowledge that when we had him on the show exactly a year ago, he was one of the people who spent 20 minutes trying to convince me that President Trump is a fascist. And it wasn’t very persuasive.

FRANCIS FOSTER: No.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: So if this is now the opportunity for a lot of people to look at their rhetoric and dial it back, I think we’ve got to encourage that and support that and respect that. And if Cenk is one of them, brilliant, good on him. And I think a lot of the things he’s been saying since have been really actually exactly the way the left should talk about these issues.

This Is Not a Both Sides Issue

But I also think there’s been far too much of this. And people often accuse me of being a “both sides guy” and looking at this and looking at that. And I do try to be objective about things, but I have to say we’ve got to be honest and acknowledge that this is not a both sides issue. It just isn’t.

Yes, of course, dialing up the rhetoric has happened on both sides. And you mentioned media commentators. It’s also true of politicians. Politicians are incentivized to say, “If we don’t win this election, the roof is going to fall in on the world.” And we are living in heated times, and it does feel existential for a lot of people.

But there is a difference between saying, “Fight like hell. If we lose this election, your country’s gone,” and whatever. That ratchets up the general pressure. But when you call specific individuals Nazis and fascists, that is a completely different thing. You’re putting a target on their back because you’re saying this specific person is like this person in history who we all have been trained to hate, rightly so, for the last 70, 80 years.

If you’re saying this person is Hitler, you are putting a target on their back. That’s just a fact. And that is not the same as ratcheting up the pressure which both sides have been doing and both sides need to stop doing.

The Education Problem

FRANCIS FOSTER: What this shows is a complete lack of education, because I guarantee, if you sat down with these people who were throwing these words about and going, “Could you please explain to me the political ideology of fascism? What are the tenets of fascism? Just explain it to me. We can talk communism, we can talk liberalism, but you’ve said fascism. What does it mean to be a fascist? What do you believe in? What actually is fascism? The ideology at its roots?”

I don’t think they’d ever be able to explain that. I don’t think they’d be able to give a coherent explanation of what fascism actually is. So to them, it’s just a label. It’s something that I disagree with. It’s something that is morally reprehensible. And what they’re not doing is understanding how serious that accusation is.

It’s like the term pedophile. If you didn’t understand what that meant and you just thought, “Oh, this is a despicable person. Oh, he votes Reform. Oh, you’re a pedo.” Well, if you say that enough time, people are going to be like, “What? Then why is he walking past the school?” “We just thought, well, I’m going to pick up my daughter.” “No, you’re a pedophile.” Then what happens? That person is going to get severely hurt.

You need to actually understand what it is that you are accusing somebody of, because this isn’t just a label, it has a meaning. Fascism is a political ideology. Understand it or stop using that word. And the same with Nazism.

The Echo Chamber Problem and Misinformation

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And the other thing is, you saw as well, I think, that there are these echo chambers now. I mean, there are a number of people. Stephen King, I think, was one of them. Alastair Campbell, here in Britain as well. They both wrongly tweeted that Charlie Kirk was somebody who said that gay people should be stoned. They shared this to millions of people.

And you’re going, you clearly must know literally nothing about Charlie Kirk, because I didn’t follow his work closely, but I broadly was aware of his work. And there is no possible way that you can believe he said that and know anything about him, because you just know that is not the sort of person that he was and is not the sort of thing that he would have said.

And in any case, we’ve got into the politics of it quite quickly. The thing that we need to say, look, I’ve said it for a week now and maybe that’s why we didn’t open with it. This is a 30 year old guy, a father of two young children who are now going to grow up without him. And at the end of the day, that is the only thing that matters here. That is the only thing that matters.

A man’s life has been taken away and he has been taken away from his children and his wife for speaking to people on college campuses, which is exactly where this kind of robust debate needed to happen. Yeah, that is what happened. That is what happened. And I don’t know what the right word is for how wrong, evil and horrific that is.

The Long-Term Consequences of Campus Ideology

And for anyone to celebrate it, I just think they’ve got some kind of. They have been failed very badly by their education system. And you know, I don’t know if you remember this, but when I, if you remember in 2018 when I turned down that safe space contract and a lot of people were saying to me, “Constantine, why are you making such a big deal about it? It’s just students. It’s just people at university, you know, they grow up and they’ll be fine.”

No, this is what I said at the time. You don’t understand. 10, 15, 20 years from now, these very same people who are now these stupid students who are celebrating someone being murdered, they’re going to be in charge of the country, they’re going to be making decisions, they’re going to be running things, they’re going to be running banks, they’re going to be running companies, they’re going to be running political organizations, they’re going to be running the country. And they have been indoctrinated with this horrific ideology and they think it’s fine to kill people. Now, some of them is gross.

Social Media’s Dehumanizing Effect

FRANCIS FOSTER: Look, of course it’s discussion, but I think also we have to accept as well that social media has paid its part in that when these people go online, they see these people not as real people, but as avatars. These are avatars. They’re not real people. They don’t interact with them every day. They don’t see them, they’re not their friends.

And so they don’t. So if somebody is an avatar, they’re not human. If they’re not human, it’s very easy to dehumanize them. Call them Nazi, call them whatever you want, because what. What is the impact? It’s not like I’m walking up to you at a bar and going, “I think you’re X, Y and Z.” You turn around to me and go. And then a very real encounter happens, because it’s real life.

So if somebody dies and they’re not human, then it’s like a computer game. I mean, social media, in many ways, is a glorified computer game. So Charlie is assassinated. Your enemy in the computer game is killed. You celebrate. And I think as terrible as it is, as I’ve just explained, I think that’s a large part of it. And I think we, as a culture, as a society, as a generation and the younger generations, we’re in real danger of losing our souls in our humanity.

Personal Responsibility vs. Social Media Influence

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I don’t think you’re wrong about that. But I also have to push back on this as well, because I think you’re right, that the effect is there, But I don’t. If, if somebody on the, on the left or somebody that I personally. Someone who’s, let’s say, uber woke.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Right. And I don’t want to name names because, you know, for obvious reasons.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: That I, I. People would assume that I hate because they’re my political opponent. If this, if they were shot.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: In front of an audience of people they came to debate and killed in that way. I wouldn’t be. I have social media. I wouldn’t be celebrating. Yeah, right. I wouldn’t be. I would be horrified.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: You pick out a person that you think I hate the most in the world, Whoever that is in your head. Right. And imagine that happening to them. And all I can think of. This is horrific.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Whoever did this obviously has to be punished to the worst extent, but we’ve got to, like, stop this. This is completely unacceptable. And I have social media. I’m on Twitter all the time, but I don’t want to see my political opponents killed. So what I’m saying is we can blame social media all we want, but there’s something else going on here.

Generational Differences and Digital Natives

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. I also think it’s a generational thing as well. I think if you’ve been raised on. On this stuff, I think. Not that you’re going to, but I think you’re more likely to believe and think in that way. I genuinely do. I think that one of the things that we’re very lucky is that we remember a time before Social media, we remember a time before all this, all this stuff happened.

So because you remember a time before it happened, you have a deeper connection and rooting with reality. And I sometimes think that. Look, I think it’s the ideology. Of course the ideology plays a part. I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m also saying that this, the way that we’re interacting and staring at our screens, I think it’s destroying a generation mentally.

The Need for Accountability

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I think it’s unhelpful. But I’m sorry, Francis, I’m not. I am not down with this. People need to take some accountability here. The teachers, the college professors.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yep.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: The influencers, the people who go on social media, the podcasters, all the people that have created an environment where young people now think violence is acceptable. I don’t give a shit about the use of social media. Like, this is not the right way to be thinking about this. And I’m not going to let anyone off the hook with this. It’s not acceptable.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I agree with you. I agree with you. I just think that is a fundamental part of the puzzle as well.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I agree. No, that part I agree with. But I don’t think that should be remotely an excuse for this way of thinking. The reason that they think this way is first and foremost what they’ve been taught, what they’ve been taught ideologically to think about their political opponents. And this decade we’ve had now of constant demonization of your political opponents as Nazis and fascists. All of this. That’s where this is coming from. That’s where this is coming from. Social media. Of course, you’re right. But the thing with social media is social media amplifies everything.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: If you put good stuff out. That also gets amplified by social media. My Instagram feed is because of what I’m following on there. It’s just people talking about parenting in a funny way. And whatever. My point is, good messages also get amplified.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Right. So at the end of the day, it’s about people who are putting out the messages.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yes.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: They are the ones responsible.

The Responsibility of Content Creators

FRANCIS FOSTER: Agreed. And they need to take responsibility for that. Absolutely, 100%. Because I think, and I see a lot of these people, I go, do you actually, genuinely, genuinely. Do you actually think about the impact this is having, or are you just thinking in a purely monetary, very, very functional business, “oh, this clip did X. This clip did. Yes. This got X amount of followers. This got Y amount of engagement.” Is that how you think about it? Or are you actually thinking to yourself, “this is having a very real world Impact.”

Monetizing Tragedy and Conspiracy Theories

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I hope more people do think about it that way. Look, especially now. Look, you can social media, YouTube, etc. They’re new mediums, they’re new technologies. They fell into the hands of a lot of people who were not prepared to deal with that level of influence and power. And so perhaps there’s some understanding to be had for, you know, maybe people like you say, genuinely didn’t realize that what they say in here has an impact out there.

Well, we know that now. We know that now. And those people need to, need to really have a wake up moment right here, right now. But if we’re going to talk about people monetizing this tragedy, I mean, what we’ve seen in the last few days on the right, I think I’m probably as horrified by that as I am by the celebrations of Charlie Kirk’s assassination.

I mean, there are people who are literally going, “oh, let me tell you how Israel killed him.” We know this guy who killed him from the text messages, from the messages on the ammunition, which were all anti fascist, quote unquote. All of this. This was like a trans ally Guy who was in a relationship with a trans person who thought Charlie Kirk was too hateful. Clearly a leftist, a crazy leftist guy.

There’s now people going, “well, I’ve got text messages that. That insinuate that Charlie Kirk was under pressure to support Israel. Tune into my live stream.” I’m just going, you have lost your humanity if you ever had it.

Greed vs. Ideology

FRANCIS FOSTER: And that, again, just shows you just. And. And the one thing, the thing that I find that I struggle to understand is I go, how much of this is. Is just sheer naked greed in all senses of the word. And how much of this is ideological? How much of this is “Israel is behind everything bad that’s happening in the world, whether it’s Epstein or the assassination of Charlie Kirk?” And how much of this is just you going.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: It’s hard to know. It’s hard to know. But I just think you said it before we started. It’s like, I think the Douglas Murray quote.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: “A flare has gone up and now we know where everybody is” and we saw the people, very few people, but influential people, who, before we even knew anything, started to try and make it about Israel or other things. And you’re just going, you’re not a serious person.

FRANCIS FOSTER: No.

The Alex Jones Treatment

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And that’s why I don’t even want to name names. I’ve written stuff about, you know, the woke. Right, and the Candace Owens and whatever. I’m not even interested. Now it’s time to give all these people the Alex Jones treatment, which is just, look, you’ve got your audience and you say whatever you want and that audience will be big, but no one serious is going to take you seriously anymore because you just discrediting yourself.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. And I think when you see those people, you actually go, if you haven’t understood who they actually are, if you’ve thought, you know, they’ve said sensible things about BLM or, you know, the riots or whatever it may be. No, the mask is well and truly slipped. And you see the grotesque. The grotesque underneath.

And then you have to. And now it is your job as an adult to make the decision. Do you continue to follow? Do you continue to engage? Do you continue to amplify this person? Or do you look and do you think to yourself, “actually, no more?”

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And these people, they were Charlie’s friends. They were Charlie’s friends.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I don’t think they were.

The Aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s Death

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Well, they claim they were. He invited them to his events. They spoke at his events. And while his widow and children are grieving, they are profiteering from his death with conspiracy theories that are completely the opposite of the truth. Because we know from all the evidence that points to the fact that this was trans-related ally leftist, quote unquote, “antifascist” crazy guy.

But these people who claim to be his friends are literally profiting from his death. I actually cannot imagine anything more disgusting. Imagine somebody, imagine this, God forbid, happened to one of us and our so-called friends were using this to get clicks on their YouTube channels while your family were grieving.

It’s as disgusting as the left, the people on the left who celebrated his death. It’s just as disgusting and there’s no other way to say it. And I think they’ve all just, in my eyes, I will never ever take any of them seriously in anything they say ever again. Because they’ve just shown who they are.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Absolutely. And what they’ve shown very clearly is that the most important thing for you is engagement. It’s views and it’s money. And if that’s the most important thing for you, that’s your incentive structure, then why are you going to be truthful? Why are you going to behave with decency, honesty and integrity? If the most important thing for you is those things? If that’s the top, if that is the most important thing, then naturally all your behaviors are going to lead to that thing.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And it’s weird because, you know, with my Russian background, I’m about as cynical as you can get. But I was not cynical enough to imagine this kind of reaction. I imagined people celebrate. I knew people would celebrate because people celebrated when Thatcher died. And look, at some level I can relate. I’m not saying this is how I will think, but you know, for our generation in this country, Tony Blair was evil. What he did in Iraq was evil objectively. And we all knew it at the time, we all opposed the war.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yes, of course.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I’m not saying I will celebrate when he dies, because I will not. But I can see how somebody might. So at least I sort of, it’s horrific and as we’ve talked about, completely unacceptable. But I can sort of see how you might get there.

But with this, I was not cynical to imagine what I did imagine. And it is happening. You know, we had the US Attorney General Pam Bondi, for example, start talking about, “you know what, there’s free speech and there’s hate speech and we’re going to crack down on hate speech right now.”

This is the interesting thing, because this is another example of why this is not a both sides issue. Because the moment she said that, literally everybody on the right went, “no.” And they started quoting Charlie Kirk’s own quotes saying there’s no such thing as hate speech in America. The First Amendment doesn’t curtail people’s right to say things like that. And they’re right. And the pushback was instant because on the right, all of these ideas have been debated and people know where they stand on this. On the left is a whole different narrative about it.

Jimmy Kimmel Controversy

That’s what I expected, and I expected what we’re now seeing, which is, look, we should talk about this because this is a live conversation as well. As we sit here this morning, Jimmy Kimmel has just been put on leave. Taken off air indefinitely. Right. Because he said the shooter was a MAGA guy in one of his monologues.

We’ll talk about that. And also, we’ve seen a lot of people be sacked from their jobs or fired from their jobs for celebrating Charlie’s death and things like that. And it’s quite an interesting one to adjudicate from our perspective. So what do you make of these two strands?

FRANCIS FOSTER: So with Jimmy, and I’m going to put my cards on the table. I’m always pro comedian. I’m always pro comedian. I will always stand up for comedians because I believe that we, over the past few years, we swung so far over the other way where people were getting canceled, that I actually, unless somebody does something particularly heinous, I will always be pro comedy and I will always be comedian.

I think Jimmy obviously had information. It was wrong. He was given the wrong information or he saw information was wrong. He made a mistake. Am I comfortable with what’s happened? No, I’m not, if I’m being honest.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I’m not going to give my opinion either way just yet, but I think we, look, I’m a former comedian, you’re a current comedian, and I totally get that instinct. But I also don’t think this comedian defense is getting overused. There are quite a lot of people who say things that they actually mean, who are serious political commentators or at least taken as serious political commentators who use the defense of being comedians the moment they’re caught lying.

Bassem Youssef, a former guest of ours, before there was any evidence came out at all, he said on Twitter that Charlie Kirk was killed by Mossad. And when he was challenged on this by Piers Morgan, he said, “well, I just, you know, I’m a clown. I’m a comedian. I was joking.” But he wasn’t joking. He wasn’t joking. And he’s not a clown. All you’ve seen him do for the last year is give his serious opinion about things.

And when you blur that line, you don’t have that excuse anymore.

The Responsibility of Political Commentary

And with Jimmy Kimmel, we can have a conversation about him being taken off air. But I also think it’s unfair to pretend that he is a comedian in the same way. I think it’s unfair to pretend, and I don’t think Bill would do this, that Bill Maher is a comedian. Bill Maher hosts a political show that has elements of comedy.

But I know people on the left who’ve said to me repeatedly, “I just get all my news from the Daily Show. I just get all my news from Jimmy Kimmel.” Because the point of those shows is to talk about politics and culture with a punchline at the end. But you also have a responsibility to communicate the truth.

And you say he was given wrong information. I am sorry, mate. This has been the biggest story on the news for the last week. The police have released plenty of information about the motivations of the shooter. They’ve released his text messages. They’ve released the information that was on the ammunition. How are you getting this wrong like that?

FRANCIS FOSTER: Okay, so that’s a fair point. But I see certain things as being different. I think what Bassem does is Bassem presents, I don’t think Bassem presents himself as a serious political commentator, which is fundamentally disingenuous that he then retreats to that position. He also spread a conspiracy theory knowingly. And he admitted that in the clip, which is reprehensible and utterly disgusting. It’s anti-Semitic, vile. So there is no excuse. And I do not defend Bassem and I utterly condemn him.

With Bill Maher, that is a serious political show. I agree with your point.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Also got jokes, though. Just like Jimmy Kimmel.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I see Jimmy Kimmel as being more kind of, I haven’t seen the Jimmy Kimmel show in a long time, but I see it as being much more of a kind of fluffy light entertainment show than a political show.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Come on, man. One of the reasons that also they’re not that bothered about canceling is because the ratings are apparently through the floor.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Exactly. I always saw Jimmy Kimmel as being much more of a kind of fluffy light entertainment show than a political show.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Fine, but he is presenting information to the public about which he then does jokes. When you insinuate that this person who killed Charlie Kirk was a MAGA guy, you are spreading a conspiracy theory.

This is the thing again, right? There are a lot of crazy conspiracy theories on the right and they’re loved and appreciated by many people with large audiences on the right. And I dislike that. And I’ve always said that I dislike that. Start with Pizzagate and work your way down, right?

But the left has got away for a very long time with spreading conspiracy theories of the worst kind while claiming that the right is conspiratorial. No, no, no. If you go on TV a week after Charlie Kirk is killed by a left wing radical and you say he was a MAGA guy, imagine it was the other way around. Imagine a major left wing figure had just been politically assassinated by someone from the right and Greg Gutfeld went on his comedy show on Fox and said, “well, this guy was obviously a leftist.” What would happen?

There would be a firestorm of people calling for him to be sacked, to be canceled, to be fired. All of this for spreading misinformation. So Jimmy Kimmel, I think, is exactly in that category.

Now, do I want to see him canceled permanently, never allowed to work again? No. But I also think if your job is to communicate information to the public, you have a responsibility to be accurate about it. And that is not an acceptable breach of that duty, in my opinion.

The Comedy Defense Problem

FRANCIS FOSTER: Look, I agree with that. My instinct is always when it comes to comedy.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: But it wasn’t comedy, though.

FRANCIS FOSTER: It’s not comedy, it’s satire.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: It’s not satire, it’s him expressing his opinion. He basically told people that this guy was killed by a MAGA guy. Charlie Kirk was killed by a MAGA guy. That’s not satire. Satire’s making a joke.

FRANCIS FOSTER: But it then led to a joke. But look, I agree. The fact that he said that, okay.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: If I say Francis Foster is a pedophile and then make a joke about how he’s the best pedophile, you realize everybody’s going to clip that, right? Which bit is the joke? And which bit is the serious thing? Do you see what I mean?

If I said Francis Foster is a pedophile, but he couldn’t even do that properly. The joke is he couldn’t even do that properly. But the setup is the truth that I’m attempting to claim is the truth. And that’s what Jimmy did.

And when you have a huge audience to whom you are communicating about politics and culture, I don’t think you can get away with saying it’s just a bit of comedy. I don’t think that’s legitimate.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Look, I agree. I just think deep down my concerns are that when we look at Bassem, but with Jimmy, I just worry that it’s going to degenerate into just political point scoring. And it’s like, “oh, we’re going to cancel this guy now. We’re going to go after this guy and cancel him.” And I’m like, look, what you said was wrong. It was stupid.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: He should apologize and issue a correction.

FRANCIS FOSTER: And issue a correction. But do I want to be in a place where we start going tit for tat cancellations? I don’t want to be. I don’t want to live in that world.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I agree with that. And what I’d also say is, from what I’m hearing, the FCC were involved in putting pressure on his employers, which to me is troubling. Because you don’t want the government’s arm influencing what broadcasters are allowed to broadcast. So I don’t think I’m comfortable with that aspect of it.

But at the same time, I think it’s a grotesque negligence on his part. And if his own network felt that he’d made a mistake that deserved some kind of reprimand, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Absolutely.

The Complexity of Cancel Culture

KONSTANTIN KISIN: You know, and also in terms of set Jimmy aside, because I think we’ve kind of said what we think about it. There’s been a lot of this. You know, here’s this person who said this in celebration. This, let’s get him fired from this job, that job, and whatever. And again, that’s quite a complicated one because I think we have to be honest that there’s a difference. Right.

If someone is flipping burgers in a McDonald’s, I don’t see how. Whatever. However their views are, how evil their views are, I don’t think they should be cancelled and be fired from their job for doing that. But at the same time, if you are in a position where you’re dealing with the public or you’re dealing with children, you’re an educator, I don’t think we can pretend that that has no impact.

I don’t think if you’re teaching children, I mean, there was a guy in Canada, his story was in New York Post, who showed his 10 and 11 year olds in class the video of the assassination repeatedly and then explained to them why it was justified, allegedly. So if you are doing that, I’m sorry, you getting fired is not cancel culture out the door, you go.

And look extended beyond that. If, say you are working in a hospital as a doctor or a nurse in some way, you’re dealing with patients.

FRANCIS FOSTER: We’ve seen that, you know, with people supporting Hamas and the slaughter on October 7th.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Right. So if you are in that position, and I am a religious conservative. I’m not a religious conservative, but I am an American religious conservative. I’m going into hospital. Do you think I would feel comfortable being treated for my medical condition by somebody who thinks it’s okay to murder people like me? Right.

So again, if you are in that sort of position, I don’t know that you could argue that people who celebrate violence against people like the people they serve can remain in that position credibly. But I also think, you know, there are positions when that isn’t the case, where it’s probably a different thing.

Drawing Lines in Employment

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. And this is, again, this is the issue where we actually have to look at it and we have to be nuanced about this and we actually have to have a discussion, a conversation and go, what is acceptable? What is not acceptable? When can you say it? When can’t you say it? Because a corporation would go, everybody who works for McDonald’s is a representative of McDonald’s. They are an ambassador of McDonald’s. Whether you are in the work flipping burgers.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Are you?

FRANCIS FOSTER: You could, because, you know, if, look.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: We have an office here. If the cleaner who cleans our office once a week.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Went out and I don’t know what his opinions are.

FRANCIS FOSTER: They’re pretty bad, mate. I’ve spoken to him.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: You know what I’m saying? Are they representing the values of trigonometry? No, they’re not. But objectively not. I don’t even know his name.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah, but that is what could be argued.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah, but that’s just not true, though.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: A cleaner does not represent the values an accountant. They don’t know how, do they? I don’t know my accountant’s values. I think his values are money, personally.

FRANCIS FOSTER: But if you’re KPMG and one of your senior accountants, for instance, starts.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Tweeting, senior Account is a different thing.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Okay. Or just a regular accountant and they celebrate October 7th, would KPMG not be entitled to fire that person?

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I think they. Look, personally, what I’m trying to say is I think there’s a line somewhere. And that line for me is about, are you dealing with people that may feel that you actually want them dead based on your commentary? Right. That’s what I’m talking about. So if I’m going into a hospital and someone is there celebrating the murder of people like me, that I don’t think is a tenable position.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I think what we’re saying is it’s when it prejudices your work.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Right. When it affects the way you do your job, or at least other people will credibly think that it does. So if you’re a cleaner in a hospital, have any opinion you want, evil as it might be.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah, but when, for instance, that you’re dealing. For instance, if I was KPMG and someone tweeted about, I don’t know, Hamas and said, “I’m pro Hamas,” I’m like, well, can I really trust you to handle this Jewish customer’s accounts? Can I really trust you? If you celebrate the slaughter of Jews and Israelis and you think that’s a good thing, can I trust you to handle Mr. Lowenstein’s accounts? I personally don’t think I can. And that’s not an unfair position to be in.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Right. So your point is it affects your work in a material way or other people will feel that it does. So that it’s. So it’s slightly more complicated than people are trying to make it out to be. Because a lot of people on the right are like, all these people deserve to be cancelled. And people on the left also look at the right practice and cancel culture. I think it’s, as we’ve discussed, somewhat more nuanced and complicated.

FRANCIS FOSTER: But these things always are. Yeah, but when you go on social media, it’s much easier to go, these people are wrong. These people. You know what I mean?

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah.

The UK Protest Experience

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Well, the other thing that has happened since we last spoke is the United Kingdom protest. The video that we did on our channel has done very well. I think it’s approaching 700,000 views at this point. You and I both went along.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: That is another thing that, you know, there’s been a lot of rhetoric about. And look, left wing politicians, starting from Sadiq Khan, the mayor of London down, have had absolutely no problem talking about this as a far right gathering. And again, there’s some nuance to that, which I’m sure we can talk about. Obviously some of my impressions, not all of my impressions. There’s quite a lot to add to what people saw in the video, but they are in the video. What were your impressions of it?

Working Class Political Engagement

FRANCIS FOSTER: So my impressions were this. Overall, the vast. I find it very interesting because I’ve never been to a political rally. To me, and you’re going to say this, but to me, political rallies are largely middle class things. They’re largely middle class things because middle class people have the time and the energy to be on social media, get worked up, get angry, the free time to then go down to Parliament Square and protest, wave their little flag, do whatever they want. Right. It’s a middle class activity. Revolutions were always started and led by the middle class. Right.

The thing that I found very interesting is that when I went to this particular demonstration, it was very working class. It was people that I would know from South London growing up and being, you know, go down the pub or go watch the football. I remember watching certain. There was a lot of chanting. It was a really almost odd mixture of politics and football mixed together.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: “Starmer as a wanker” being a prominent feature.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. Which people have chanted at the football week after week.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah.

FRANCIS FOSTER: So that’s a football chant and there was a very football element to it. So I found that very interesting. The vast majority of people that I spoke to that I went out and I was chatting with ordinary decent people, I would argue that the reason they were there is they felt that something is wrong in their country. And they felt for a long time they have been told to be ashamed of their history, their background, their race, their country. And to them it was a demonstration of pride and a celebration of the country.

There was a fringe element that I saw which were drunken, aggressive, occasionally violent. And I saw it happen. 20, I think it was 25 or 26 police officers were hurt.

Violence and Arrests at the Protest

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah. So just to clarify, what we know now is 25 arrests were made.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: The majority of those arrests were made among the counter protesters.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: But there was some violence which people can see in the video that I did between the police and the pro Tommy protesters. This was on a side street where people couldn’t get to the main protest and I think they were frustrated and angry about that, but they were violent towards the police, which of course is never acceptable, but for a protest of several hundred thousand people.

Yeah, you know, the level of violence was actually surprisingly low for me because the one thing. And people can see, you know, some, someone actually said, you know, you keep talking about, you worry about this being violent. Yeah, it’s because we saw a lot of people who had clearly, you know, we got there for what, 10, 10:45, 11. By that time there were people who had clearly had about five pints in them at least. There were a lot of people who had been drinking.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And that’s always a worry when people are rowdy, of course.

Transport and Drinking Culture

FRANCIS FOSTER: And the government didn’t. I don’t know whether it was government. The train companies, there were very few trains going into London on that day. So what happened is that people would get the coaches down from places like Middlesbrough or Sunderland, Northeast Northwest, and they would get the coaches, some of them early, as early as 4 or 5 o’clock in the morning to come down.

And I was speaking to some people who were on the coaches who said that it was reminiscent of going on an away day to a football match. And let’s be honest about this, white working class culture, especially football culture, revolves around booze. You go out, you have a few beers, you get pissed up, you’re with your mates, you have a sing song, you do whatever else. That is how it is, by the way.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Why did you say why? Because I don’t think it’s why. I mean, there was quite a lot of non white people there. I know there’s a lot of non white people in the football who are.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I agree, because. But I’m talking about people that I grew up with. I’m talking about my dad.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah.

FRANCIS FOSTER: So my, where my dad and my dad’s not a football fan. He’s a real man, he likes rugby league. But when we go out with my family, we start, you know, they start drinking.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: All I’m saying is I think football culture is not a race thing.

FRANCIS FOSTER: No, it’s not. But I’m talking about working class culture. White working class culture, which is.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Why is it white? Sorry if I’m being pedantic. Wouldn’t black people also go out and have a few pints?

FRANCIS FOSTER: But in my experience, when we go. When we go out, you’re saying you.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Don’t have any black friends.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I don’t have any black friends, but I’m talking about going for pints. It’s a very kind of. Which is where I come from, that is the culture. It revolves around pints and booze and whatever else.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah, yeah.

FRANCIS FOSTER: And I don’t see it as much in other cultures.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Okay.

FRANCIS FOSTER: As I do with my own culture.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Fair enough.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. And again, that. There’s no judgment on that part. It’s just how it is. It’s how we’re brought up. It’s how we always.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: So there was a lot of drinking from an early.

The Crowd’s Character and Atmosphere

FRANCIS FOSTER: There was a lot of drinking from early on, and most people were friendly and rambunctious. They were just there to have a laugh. There was banter, and we saw it. People were very friendly. They approached us, and there was a small minority who were there. There was a very small minority who were there, and it seemed like there was an edge to them.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah, there was an edge to them, but also among those people. So in our video, you can see there are people who’ve climbed up onto the scaffolding overlooking the main stage.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And they were boozy. They had a bunch of cans up there smoking, whatever. And then when they saw me, they started shouting and waving constantly. Just because they were rowdy, like, I’m a first generation immigrant.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Like, if they were evil, far right racist, I don’t think they’d be celebrating my being there or wanting to get my attention or whatever.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And that was actually walking through the crowd. You saw it. It was quite difficult for us to make forward progress because just of the pure number of people who wanted to say hello, take a selfie, shake our hands, etc.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

Defining Far Right and Assessing the Event

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Now, I don’t think we are seen particularly on the fringes of the right as particularly friendly to them because we’re not. So I think that tells you what the general tenor of the event was.

We also saw Abi Yemeni, who’s a friend of Tommy’s, who’s a Jewish Australian YouTuber. He had a confrontation with a couple of people who were actually there, who were real Nazis. But they were there because Tommy Robinson is pro Israel and they wanted to express their disagreement with that. And we did see a handful of those people, but I don’t think they were there to support the protest. I think they were there to infiltrate it and subvert it if they could. So that definitely happened as well.

Obviously, there’s been a lot of talk about whether he was far right or not. I think, first of all, you have to always have your definitions in these situations. For me, far right is openly racist, Neo Nazi associated party, like the British National Party, which we had some time ago, the BNP, under people like Nick Griffin. That’s what I would mean by the far right. Would you accept that definition or do you have a different one?

FRANCIS FOSTER: No, I accept that definition pretty much.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: So by that definition, I really didn’t see anything that fit that definition in the crowd, other than those people who were there to subvert it. Nor on stage either.

What you did see on stage, I would argue, is a number of people who are certainly far more fringe and extreme than the overwhelming majority of the audience. That is something that I think is undeniable, actually. And look, I wouldn’t put Tommy in that category because I don’t think his views – I think he gets a lot of flack because of some of the ways that he’s behaved. But in terms of his views, I haven’t heard him say anything that makes me think he’s very fringe.

But some of the other people there, particularly from Europe, absolutely were fringe. And so I almost think the people on stage were, on balance, more extreme than the people in the crowd.

Problematic Speakers and Language

FRANCIS FOSTER: Oh, completely. Well, I completely agree. I mean, one particular speaker, Valentina Gomez, some of her language was unacceptable.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I couldn’t, because I was backstage, I couldn’t really hear anything that was said. What did she say?

FRANCIS FOSTER: So she said, “The Muslims are going to, if they get into power, they’re going to rape your daughters and they’re going to behead your sons. We need to send them back to their Sharia nations.”

KONSTANTIN KISIN: That’s extreme language.

FRANCIS FOSTER: I don’t think that’s acceptable. I don’t think whoever booked her or whoever endorsed her needs to actually think – they need to actually take a long, hard look at themselves. Because you’re in a position of responsibility when you put on a rally like this. It’s as simple as that. And to me, and I’m going to be honest, I’m probably going to get flack for this. I don’t care. You can’t have that. You simply cannot have a woman like that on stage saying those things. It is dangerous and it’s inflammatory.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And there’s also been a lot of talk about what Elon said. Again, I couldn’t hear it because I was backstage. There’s some ambiguity in the way that he phrased it. I don’t think the way he phrased it was particularly helpful. He meant like organized rally, political movement, etc.

FRANCIS FOSTER: He said “violence is coming to you.”

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah, well, I don’t think, I mean objectively, that is what’s happened in the last week. So I don’t think he’s wrong about that. But what I think the issue was, he then said, “you gotta fight or you die” or whatever. And I think, again, it depends on what exactly he meant. If he meant fight as an organized rally, organized political movements, that’s totally legitimate. If he’s encouraging people to become violent, that’s totally unacceptable. And he’d obviously have to clarify what he meant.

We can blame Tommy for booking the wrong people and whatever. And I think there’s legitimate conversations to be had about that. The reason I bring up the fact that people in the crowd were far more moderate than the speakers on stage is, to me, what that signals is a failure of leadership from the mainstream politicians. Because you’ve got moderate, reasonable, normal people who are being spoken to by people who are far more extreme than them. And that’s because the people who should be speaking to these normal, moderate, reasonable people are not speaking to them, are not addressing their concern, are smearing them all as far right and completely ignoring what they’re saying.

And that sense of frustration, that sense of “the elite are not listening to us,” is what’s driving those protests. That’s just the reality of what it is. And my worry is if the mainstream do not address the concerns of ordinary people, those ordinary people will be pushed in these unhealthy, extreme directions.

The Labour Party’s Betrayal of the Working Class

FRANCIS FOSTER: And that is the real issue going on here. And I would say this is the fault predominantly of the Labour Party. Those people in there, the people I spoke to, were people the vast majority were the people the Labour Party should be representing.

The reason that those people felt compelled to go out, whether they could articulate it or not – some of them could, some of them couldn’t – but I think deep down, if you scratch the surface, is because they feel betrayed. And you know what? They have every right to feel betrayed. They have every right to feel betrayed by the elites, the political parties, the way the grooming gangs was covered up, the way that anyone who talked about them was smeared as racist. The way that any concerns – and let’s talk about any concerns white working class people have – was immediately shunted to one side.

And if they talked about diversity, if they talked about concepts like white privilege, anything like that, they were immediately shunned. They were told they were stupid, far right racists. You can only do that trick so many times before what you get is a backlash. And people – and this is what the elites never understand.

My dad’s from Wigan. That is when Orwell wanted to write about deprivation, misery in this country, he went to Wigan. He went to Wigan. That’s where he went. When my dad grew up, he said “I had two choices. If I didn’t go to university, I’d work down the pit or I’d work in St. Helens Glass, the glass factory.” And both were pretty tough, miserable existence.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And I’m guessing by the way, neither of those two exist anymore.

FRANCIS FOSTER: No, neither of them exist.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Not only would you work there, you’d probably lose your job.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah, you’d lose your job. So you’re angry and you’re frustrated. And the people that I knew in Wigan, they were honest, solid, good people who just wanted to go to work, provide for their families, come home, raise a family. That’s all they wanted. They weren’t far right, they weren’t racist, as a vast majority of this country are. They were tolerant, good people, not extremists.

But you have pushed people to this point where they feel that they have no other option but to attend a Tommy Robinson rally. And whatever you think about Tommy, I think we can all agree that is a very worrying place to be. And the Zara Sultanas of this world and the Diane Abbotts and our beloved mayor Sadiq Khan – that’s sarcasm for the Americans – can’t actually understand that.

Smearing them as far right, smearing them as racist, do not understand where this is leading, because this is leading somewhere that is very dark and it’s very dangerous and you haven’t learned the lessons. And a week after Charlie Kirk you’re continuing to use the same rhetoric, the same language, the same words. It’s despicable. And I’m angry. And I’m angry because it’s dangerous. And they haven’t learned. They haven’t learned. And that’s what I got from it. That is really what I got from it. And I’m worried about my country genuinely, because this is a powder keg.

Economic Realities and Structural Problems

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And one other thing we ought to add as well is Britain is an extremely anti extremist place. You really have to work very, very hard to get hundreds of thousands of people on the street protesting about something like this in this way. It’s very, very hard. You can get your middle class vegans to get a Palestine flag and go for a nice walk and a little sing along, but to get working class people out in the streets in the hundreds of thousands like this, you’ve got to really, really go for it.

And in addition to all the cultural issues you’ve talked about, let’s be honest, I mean, our interview with Alistair Heath is one of the best we’ve done. And one of the things people need to understand is part of the reason all of this is happening is that our GDP per capita, which is a measure of how wealthy we actually are, is lower today than it was in 2008. Our taxes are higher, which means people have less money than they did back then.

And this is something that I heard, this was said in 2014. So it’s probably much worse now. But the reason Europe is struggling as it is and the reason all these movements are happening everywhere in Europe is Europe is responsible, has 12% of the global population, 25% of the GDP and 50% of the welfare spending. And the economy is not growing.

We’re economically – and until we let go of our obsessions with net zero, with having millions of people on unemployment register simply because they’re a little bit anxious or a little bit depressed or whatever. This will carry on because people are poorer. People are frustrated with mass immigration, especially illegal immigration, which, you know, like one guy said, and I’m a very reasonable guy, he said, “I’m a single father, I work hard and I see people being put up in hotels.” You can’t have that.

You could paper over these cracks if the economy was growing rapidly and everyone felt life was great, then who cares about – I’ve got more money, I’m doing right. That’s not where we are. And so the government need to – I mean, this government is not going to do it, but whoever is the next government have to get the economy growing as well as addressing all these cultural issues, because otherwise the extremes are inevitably going to rise. I just don’t think there’s any other way around it.

Government Running Out of Steam

FRANCIS FOSTER: You know what I find very interesting? I don’t think people are talking about enough. Every government, right, left or center runs out of steam. It runs out of steam, it runs out of ideas, it runs out of momentum. This sort of run out of steam after – it’s not even, it’s barely been a year.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah. But I’m not surprised because this was all – I predicted this. If you remember the last election, I said, they’re going to realize that the problem wasn’t the evil Tories hating the poor. Problem is the country’s got giant structural problems that you can’t fix without drastic action, which they won’t be able to take.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: So they’ve run out of steam in a year, as expected.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: And I mean, I guess the question is, do you think we’re going to – do you think the next election will happen earlier than planned? It’s hard to see it. I can’t think another three years of this is going to last.

Political Strategy and Fiscal Crisis

FRANCIS FOSTER: Something needs to happen. There needs to be some… I don’t know. I don’t know. I really…

KONSTANTIN KISIN: There’s a very worrying phrase usually, mate.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. Because it is. But we’re in a very worrying situation.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Look, from a political perspective, I mean, look, as we talked about with Alistair Heath, a fiscal crisis is coming and if you were Labour, it’s almost like you go, “You know what? Why don’t we just have an election, lose, and let someone else eat that financial crisis?” Because it is coming and if Labour are seen to be the ones that oversaw it, they’re going to be dead.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Whereas if they hand over to Reform and Reform face that fiscal crisis, they’re going to get the Liz Truss treatment. A lot of Liz Truss’s policies were entirely correct. I mean, people talk about how she spooked the bond markets and, to some extent she did, but yields are higher now than they were under Liz Truss.

So my point is a lot of the political blame will go to whoever is in charge when the inevitable happens. From Labour’s perspective, maybe you just call an election now and let someone else eat it.

FRANCIS FOSTER: After a year, barely a year, they…

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Probably won’t do it because they’re not that smart. But that would be the smart play.

FRANCIS FOSTER: How do you frame it? Like “We’ve had a year, we’ve shut the bed, let’s have an election.”

KONSTANTIN KISIN: I think we’re going to have a null election either way.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Yeah. So we’re delaying inevitable.

KONSTANTIN KISIN: Yeah. And look, if you get the fiscal crisis while Labour is still in charge, that would be very good for Reform. If you get the fiscal crisis after then that would be very bad for whoever’s in charge because people will just blame whoever’s in charge, of course.

Anyway, it’s been a really, really difficult week for a lot of people. I’m glad we gave it some time because we were able to have a conversation with a bit of perspective and I’m sure we’ll see everybody very soon again for another uplifting episode.

FRANCIS FOSTER: Let’s start at the beginning. What is England?

The History of England

FRANCIS FOSTER: England emerges in the aftermath of the Roman province of Britannia. By 950, England is recognizable today. And that’s when we get the greatest hero of English medieval history. It’s called William the Marshal.

And then we see the House of Lords and the House of Commons developing fraudulent thing about the Plantagenet family. You get very uneven performance by its kings. Richard the Lionheart, John Soft Swords, Edward I, Edward II. Absolute useless muppet.

We get Wars of the Roses, you get civil war in England. Families fighting families. The printing press has been discovered. The rest of the world has been discovered. From the Tudors onwards, then we’re starting to feel this kind of acceleration in 17th century got civil war.

No one would have said Britain at that one. Those guys there, they’re about to run the world. And then we get the monumental global clashes, the 20th century.

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