Self-Development Coach Roxie Nafousi on Jay Shetty Podcast (Transcript)

And then I think that that post is terrible.

So you start with, let’s say you have a picture that you love of your family and you think, this is such a beautiful picture. I love it. And then you post it, and it doesn’t get that measure of like that you are expecting. So it gets 10 likes, let’s say, and that for you, doesn’t feel enough.

And then instead of you thinking, okay, that just maybe not many people saw it today, maybe it was the algorithm, you actually start to question your own decision. Why did I post that? Was it even a good photo?

And so actually, instead of thinking that it’s about anything else or there’s any other reason for it, you change your own perception of yourself or your own opinion of yourself. And so I think that’s where it’s really damaging, is that. Yeah, we don’t just look for external validation to guide us. We look for it to tell us what we should think about ourselves.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that’s. That’s so good. And you made me think about how we all post that caption of “felt cute might delete later.”

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And it’s like that idea of, like, I felt I looked cute.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: So I posted this.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And now I’m going to see if everyone else felt I look cute, and if they don’t, I might delete it later. And that’s that mindset that you’re saying where it’s like, oh, no, but I thought I looked really good here.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And I wanted to share that. And now you’re so right. Now you’re making me feel like I don’t look good in a picture I thought I looked good in, which makes me feel even worse.

What are some of the other ways? Where does this show up? I love that example that you just brought it to of posting a picture of your family or this “felt cute might delete later.” What are other things that you hear from people of where we’re seeing a lack of confidence show up? What are people worried about? What are people scared about? What are you hearing from people that you work with and meet? And when you’re traveling, touring, speaking, what are you hearing?

Where Lack of Confidence Shows Up in Our Lives

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Oh, gosh. I mean, I think that lack of confidence shows up in every single area of our lives. And I think that, you know, the. I. Obviously, my first book was Manifest, which was seven steps to living your best life. And it was that seven step guide.

And step two is remove fear and doubt, and people would often say to me, Roxy, the step I struggle with the most when it comes to manifesting. And to manifest we must, we can only manifest what we subconsciously believe we are worthy of receiving. So it’s all rooted in self-worth, which is why confidence is such a great extension to my work.

And people would always say the hardest step is step two, remove fear and doubt. Because this insecurity, these low self-worth, this feeling of lack of confidence is so embedded into us and into our kind of belief system that really it’s, it’s the hardest thing to work on, it’s the hardest thing to undo.

And so whether people are looking for love, whether they’re trying to grow within their careers, whether they’re trying to build on their own, you know, they’re starting their own business, whatever of their life, it is usually the reason they’re not fulfilling their potential or growing in the way that they want to is, is because of a lack of confidence.

And what I always think is really interesting with confidence is that we always assume if we were sat in a group of people, we would always assume that the person sat next to us was free of it, that they are so confident, we don’t see their self-doubt, we don’t see their insecurity.

But actually when I do my live shows and I say to an audience of thousands of people, and I’ll say, who here can honestly say they are completely free from self-doubt, insecurity or feelings of low self-worth? Not one person will raise their hand.

And so you really start to understand that this lack of confidence is a universal experience. It’s something that actually binds us all. And I think there’s so much vulnerability and connection to be found in kind of sharing it a bit more with each other and being more open about it. And it’s also so comforting because we remember, remember that, you know, we are not seeing what other people are going through mentally.

Gender Differences in Experiencing Confidence

JAY SHETTY: Do you feel that there’s a difference between men and women and how they experience confidence?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Do you know, I, I, I think that women have more pressures and so I think that we can assume that it’s much harder for women to feel confident, but I think it’s harder for men to express it.

And so I also really feel for men because I think as a group of women it’s much easier for us to go to each other and say oh God, I feel so gross today or oh God, you know, I really f*ed up in that meeting or whatever. And I think we give each other more like therapy.

Whereas I, I assume And I’m, you know, generalizing here, but men aren’t as good as open up. Opening up to each other about their insecurities, you know, is my opinion.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, no, it’s a really interesting thing to think about. And I think that’s a really like, interesting observation because I, I wouldn’t say you’re wrong. I think when my male friends, and obviously because of my work and who I am, I guess more men and me do have those types of conversations.

But in general, even when I have my male friends being really open about something, it’s hard. Like, it comes with a very, like, this is a big thing. Whereas I assume as you’re saying, like when you’re talking, it’s just chit chat and it’s how you feel. Whereas this is like, hey, I’ve got something to tell you.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And then it’s a moment of this is what I’ve been struggling with.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And yeah, it feels a lot heavier and therefore it feels a lot heavier to that person in one sense as well.

Your first chapter is called Master your thoughts. You write, “your mind can be your home or your prison. You get to choose which.” Talk to me about how your mind can be a home or a prison.

The Power of Thoughts and Beliefs

ROXIE NAFOUSI: When we really think about what are the barriers to confidence, our inner critic, I think everyone would agree, is the biggest one. And I think that what I really come to understand is how powerful our thoughts are and that our thoughts really do shape our reality.

The reason for this is because thoughts become beliefs when they’re repeated so many times. And what we believe about ourselves determines our whole experience of the world because it becomes the filter through which you view everything. Every interaction, every experience, everything is filtered through what you believe about yourself and the world and then interpreted.

And so for a really clear example of this would be, let’s say that you were to hold a belief that you are naturally not good with people. You have a belief that you’re boring. Perhaps you had a belief that you were bad at making friends. You then go to a dinner party and you meet someone new for the first time.

And because you hold this belief, the way that you interpret this person’s social cues, whether they, you might really focus on the fact that they look over your shoulder. You may notice the fact that they didn’t ask you a question, but you really focus on the fact that they just talked about themselves. And then you might really make the fact that they walked away to talk to someone else feel like this really big deal.

And as a result of the fact that you’re viewing it through this lens of “I know I’m not good with people” or “I’m not good at making new friends,” what happens is you’re focusing on the wrong cues and then you likely become a bit defensive and then you create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Whereas if somebody had a belief like “I’m really good with people, I’m great, I’m charismatic, people generally tend to like me,” you’re going to have the exact same interaction. You won’t notice any of those cues. You won’t misinterpret maybe a neutral expression as disinterest. And so you’re probably going to respond in a more positive way to that person and be more open and then you’ll create, reinforce that belief in yourself.

And so this is happening all the time in our lives and it’s a lot easier for our brains to actually just find evidence to support what we already believe rather than find conflicting evidence and then have a new way of thinking.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

The Comedian Analogy

ROXIE NAFOUSI: And so our minds really are keeping us stuck in these patterns. And I describe it like this in the book. Imagine that you’re a comedian on stage and you’re on stage and you’re giving your set and the audience are booing you, they’re like, “Get off the stage.” And essentially they’re heckling you.

Now that comedian on stage is never going to be able to give their best performance, right? Because they’re going to feel self-conscious, they’re going to feel nervous, they’re going to be overthinking everything that’s coming out of their mouth. And so it’s not going to be as relaxed. They might stumble on their words.

But if they were to go out and give the same set and the audience was there cheering them, laughing, they are going to be so much more likely to deliver their best. Their jokes are going to be funnier, they’re going to remember things. You know, it’s going to be a fantastic show.

Now in our lives, day to day, we are heckling ourselves. And so how do we expect ourselves to be able to put our best foot forward? And so it’s really about understanding that our thoughts, which are then forming our beliefs, are having so much influence over not only how we feel, but who we become and our whole lives. And so being able to master your thoughts really is the first of these eight steps to knowing your worth.

JAY SHETTY: That heckle is so real. And it happens from the moment you wake up. You wake up and you look in the mirror and you go, “I look so tired. Oh, I’ve put on a bit of weight. Oh, whatever it is.” Right? We all have our own version. “I’ve got gray hairs. Oh, I’ve, whatever it is.”

And then after that, you’re like, “Oh, God, I’m late for work.” And again, it’s like everything. And we do it to ourselves every day, all day. “Oh, I shouldn’t have spoken up in that meeting. Oh, I should have spoken up in that meeting. Oh, I said something stupid in that meeting. Oh, I should have said more. Oh, I’m not going to get a promotion. Oh, I don’t deserve…” You know, whatever it is, it’s just, it’s crazy how incessant it is.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah, yeah.

Self-Awareness vs. Self-Criticism

JAY SHETTY: And it’s like every tiny move, it almost feels like you think someone’s watching you on the big screen and analyzing every move. And I wanted to ask you, though, what’s the difference between self-awareness and self-criticism?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: It’s the intention behind it. I think that self-awareness is, I mean, is about being able to say, let’s say you’ve gone into a meeting and you’ve given a presentation, and afterward, and during the presentation, maybe you do mess up. Maybe you don’t say the right thing. Maybe it’s not your best performance.

And afterwards, if you were to come out, self-criticism would sound like, “Oh, you’re such an idiot. Why did you do that? Typical that you would. You’re never going to get it. You’ve messed up.”

Self-awareness is, “You know what? That wasn’t your best. But how can we improve for the next time?” You know, there’s a different way of approaching it. Because confidence is also not about ignoring all your flaws. It’s not about just saying, “Oh, my God, I’m just perfect how I am.”

You know, I have a quote in the book where I say, “Confidence is knowing that you’re a masterpiece and a work in progress at the same time.” And so self-awareness is important. As humans, we need to be growing and evolving, but it’s how can you actually notice perhaps your flaws, perhaps areas where you could be better and do better, but approach it in a way that feels really compassionate.

Because, you know, in that compassion, you’re actually giving yourself the best opportunity. Think about a child, right? If you want a child to learn a new skill, you’re not going to go and just berate them. You know, when I’m teaching Wolf math, if I’m like, “Oh, you idiot. How didn’t you get that?” He’s going to be like, “Forget it.” He would be traumatized. And he’d never, he’d hate math for the rest of his life.

And yet, that’s how we talk to ourselves all the time. We’re just, you know, telling ourselves, we’re just mean. We’re mean to ourselves. And it is so exhausting. And I know that so many people listening are just tired. They’re just tired of constantly being in this battle with themselves. And you just get to a point and you’re like, “I just don’t want to live like this anymore.”

Talking to Your Inner Child

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s so right. And it’s interesting because we always say, you should talk to yourself as you talk to a friend, but it’s almost like, talk to yourself like you talk to a child.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Because from what you just said with Wolf, teaching him maths, it’s like there’s an inner child inside every single one of us that is lacking in confidence, that was criticized and was heckled while they were growing up. It’s not even talking to a friend. It’s talking to this younger person inside of yourself and your younger self and saying, “Yeah, it’s okay that you’re not good at maths right now.” You wouldn’t, you would, that’s what you’d say to…

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And you wouldn’t tell him to get his act together or grow up or, “You should get it by now.”

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah. And it’s hard. It’s really difficult when you are familiar with the inner critic. It is really challenging at first to be able to actually pause on the spiraling thoughts and speak to yourself kindly.

You know, when I, if I ask people, I want you to just repeat inside your head, “I love who I am. I am so thoughtful. I’m such a good friend. I’m so proud of everything I’ve achieved.” A lot of people will not even say it inside their heads, even though no one else can hear them, because they feel cringe. They feel like it’s embarrassing, and that’s how uncomfortable it is for most people.

So I really don’t want people to think that I assume it’s really easy to change from having this inner critic to this kind inner cheerleader, but it is absolutely possible. And with practice, it becomes more comfortable and it becomes easier.

A Powerful Journaling Practice

And so there’s actually a journaling prompt I’d love people to try. I used it in my Manifest Daily journal and it’s my favorite journal prompt and it’s “A motivational message from my higher self.” And every morning I just would love people to try this. Just write down a kind message to yourself because what it’s going to do is it’s going to help you really get to know that voice and really give it more power, give it a character, give it space in your mind.

And so when I started doing this practice myself, I would write something really generic like “You got this,” right? And then as I started getting more used to it, I would write things, let’s say I was nervous or something that day. I’d write something like, “Today is going to be great. You’ve worked really hard for this. Do your best.”

Or if there was something I was really excited for that day, I’d say, “Go and enjoy every second. You deserve to be there. You know, this is part of your journey,” or whatever it was. And so I think that this can be a really powerful prompt for those people who think that I just don’t even know where to start with talking to my inner child or a friend. This can just help you get to know their voice.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I really like that. And I think that’s what we have to understand is that even that inner critic is not us. It’s just a rehearsed, habituated, conditioned voice that you’ve just practiced. So you’ve practiced that voice your whole life that says, “You’re a loser, you’re not great, you’re not enough, you’re not good,” whatever it is. And if you start practicing another voice, that will change.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

Changing Your Destiny Through Practice

JAY SHETTY: And that for me was always massively helpful in recognizing that you could change pretty much anything and everything if you wanted to and if you chose to, because all you were living out was a habit and you weren’t living out your destiny as if. And that’s what we believe. We kind of believe, “Well, I’m born like this, and this is what I have, and this is what I’m living with.”

And really what you’re saying is, no. If you master your thoughts, you can change your beliefs, and therefore you can change your reality.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: I love the idea of a motivational message from your higher self, because that’s even beyond being kinder to yourself. That’s really saying, “Well, let’s live your life from this point of view.”

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And how that changes everything. And it’s almost like even if you went one day living like that, even if you could just do 24 hours of talking to yourself and looking at your life through your motivational message, through your higher self, I feel, wow, I could accomplish so much.

The Higher Self Exercise

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Oh, God. Yeah. So I have this great tool, actually. So if we think about our higher self, like, what really is that higher self? For me, it’s your most empowered self. It’s the best you.

And if you’re struggling to kind of think about that version, what I would say is close your eyes and I want you to really think about you one year from now. And I want you to allow all your fears and doubts to just sit by the side. You don’t need them now. Set them aside for now.

And I want you to imagine, one year from now, who is the best me that I could be? Who would I love to become? And really get to know that version of you. How would they walk into a room? How would they walk out of it? How would they feel about themselves? How do they interact with the people in their lives? How do they feel when they’re at work?

And you really start to get this really clear idea of who is the best you. And that is your higher self. And then how do you start to bring that version of you to life day to day?

Well, you can do it in every decision that you make, because from the minute we wake up to the minute we go to bed, we make hundreds, thousands of decisions. And really our life is just a culmination of all the decisions that we make, right? The choices that we make.

And before every decision, before every choice, I want everybody listening to just ask themselves one question: “What would my higher self do?” And I want you to try one day living like this. Should I—would they snooze their alarm? What would they eat for breakfast? Do they reply to this person? Do they say yes to this thing they don’t want to do? How do they go into work? What’s their body language like today?

And I think when you start to realize that actually your higher self already exists, you just need to bring that version of you to life, I think it can be so empowering.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I love that advice. It’s such a simple thing. We can all do it. And it is just practicing. It’s rehearsing. I think we don’t realize that we’re all acting just with really negative lines, and we’ve learned them and rehearsed them for so long, and we’ve got to start acting like that higher self to access it.

And that’s what’s so interesting. I love what you said, that it’s already there, but in order to access it, you have to act it, you have to be it, you have to live it, you have to practice it. And then you go, oh, wow, I do have that ability.

Yeah, it’s what you were saying earlier, that if you went in and gave your presentation as if someone who was really comfortable, all of a sudden you might actually notice you have other skills that you didn’t even know you had.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And when you’re being scared about, oh, am I funny enough or am I clever enough? That just boils up everything else inside of you and dissipates.

I wanted to skip to step three because I won’t be able to read the book. The book’s called Confidence: Eight Steps to Knowing Your Worth. I’m picking my favorite steps, and I want you to get the book to read the steps in between. I love this step: Stop trying to be liked by everybody.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: My favorite step.

Stop Trying to Be Liked by Everybody

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, this is my favorite step, too, because it’s such an addiction, and I had it for such a long time. And of course, we all still deal with it, so it’s not like I’m beyond it at all.

But I remember it having such a hold of my life that I couldn’t be authentic. And that’s what’s so interesting, is that we think that the people that are liked by everyone are authentic.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Sometimes the people who are liked by everyone are the people who will tell you that they’ve just been wearing a mask and hiding their boundaries and ignoring their feelings about how they feel around people.

And actually the person who says no, or the person who says, “I’m really sorry, I love you, but I can’t make it,” or the person who says, “Hey, I wish I could be there for you, but it’s not possible”—they’re actually being honest and authentic because they’re not bending and molding themselves to get you to like them.

So when you say, stop trying to be liked by everybody, you said, “Stop trying to be liked by everyone. You don’t even like everyone.” And I love that.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah. It was a quote I found on Instagram. I don’t know who said it. “Stop trying to be liked by everyone. You don’t even like everyone.” It’s so good. It’s how the step starts.

And look, for me, I just love this step. It was the most liberating step in my own journey. And I think it will also be for most people listening because again, we talk about the barriers to confidence. So one is, of course, the inner critic, right? That loud voice that is just telling you you’re not good enough, that’s stopping you from putting your best foot forward.

But the other is this constant concern of what will someone else think? And this is holding us back in so many ways. Whether it’s creating people-pleasing behavior, stopping us from putting ourselves out there, taking risks because we have fear of judgment and shame. There’s so many things that it’s ruining for us, really.

And so I’ve come up in the book with these four essential truths, and I really love them. So should we just go through them?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, let’s do it.

The Four Essential Truths

ROXIE NAFOUSI: So the first essential truth is nobody is really thinking about us as much as we think they are. So there’s this thing called the spotlight effect, where we assume that people are perceiving our flaws as much as we are, but they’re not.

So let’s say you have a spot on your face and you are convinced everybody’s staring at it, and they’re probably just not. Or maybe you’re in the gym and you do your workout wrong or you drop your weight and you think, oh, my God, everyone has seen it. Again, they just don’t. People don’t perceive what you perceive.

And I think that also, when we’re really honest with ourselves, nobody is tuning in to the next episode of your life. They just don’t care. They really don’t. And be comforted in that.

Sometimes I see people on Instagram, and I’ll see them apologizing. It’s a genuine apology. “Oh, I’m so sorry, guys. I haven’t shown up online.” And I’m like, you do not need to apologize. I’m certain no one noticed. And I don’t mean that in a mean way. I mean, give yourself a break. If you want to be offline, be offline. You don’t need to feel bad about it. Do that for yourself.

So no one’s really thinking about you as much as we think they are.

The second is you never really know what people are actually thinking of you. So I want to give you a quick story of this, where this is when I first really realized this myself.

So you’re a public speaker, so you know that when you give performances on stage and people are listening to you, when people are listening and they’re concentrating, they look like they are intensely bored or they hate you. People’s resting expressions are not warm in general.

And when I first went on stage, my first ever workshop, I didn’t know this. And so I went on stage and I was really nervous anyway, because I’d never done it before. I was really stepping outside my comfort zone.

And I remember this particular woman, and she was wearing this pink tracksuit and she honestly looked like I had just insulted her children. She clearly couldn’t stand me. And we have a negative bias. And I was focusing my attention on this woman. And after the interval, I honestly couldn’t believe that she’d come back.

And anyway, I managed to get through the rest of the show. And on the Monday, I got an email and it said, “Hi, Roxy, I came to your show, I absolutely loved it and I was wondering if you did one-to-one coaching. I don’t know if you remember me, but I was wearing the pink tracksuit.” And I was like, yes!

You really never know what somebody is thinking. And I think that we can take someone’s—let’s say they’re directing an email or they don’t reply to a WhatsApp. I mean, how many people listening have had their friends not message them back and they’re convinced they hate them or “What have I done wrong?” And then only for them to be like, “Oh, God, sorry I was so busy,” or “Sorry this happened.”

We just really never know. And so let’s just stop putting narratives that put ourselves in this kind of disadvantage.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, it’s fascinating to hear that the first step is no one’s really thinking about you, and the second is you have no idea what they are thinking about you. Brilliant.

And it reminded me, I remember when I was at university, we were learning a case study about the acrobatics and performance company Cirque du Soleil.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Oh, yeah. God, I love it.

The Cirque du Soleil Story

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah. So for anyone who’s seen Cirque, it’s this crazy jumping through fire hoops, dancing acrobatics, spinning around on something suspended from the air. It’s unbelievable.

And they would go and travel across the world and they’d have acrobats from all over the world. Whenever they’d perform in America, when they’d do a triple flip and fall through a hoop of fire and land on their feet, the audience would go ballistic. They would be cheering, just full on pandemonium, right? The audience would go crazy.

And then when they’d go to Asia, the audience would just do a small tap in their hands.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And so this person just literally jumped through three hoops of fire, triple backflip, done the most crazy thing and they get this small tap. And they found that their acrobats would get really self-conscious. They would think they did a bad job.

So they’d go to Cirque and be like, “I think I did really bad today. I don’t think we did a good job today.” They’d get really disheartened. Their performance would lack the next day.

So Cirque started engaging—I don’t know if they still do this, but at the time they started engaging companies to train them in how different cultures show praise.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Wow.

JAY SHETTY: Because all cultures show praise differently. So some parts of Asia, they loved it. But the way they showed praise was more muted. Whereas in America, the way they showed praise was really big and bold. And obviously the UK would show praise different, Europe would.

And so this idea also of just this woman in this pink sweatsuit—

ROXIE NAFOUSI: But it’s also exactly what we were saying before about how encouragement helps you perform better.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: So the fact that their acrobatics was kind of deteriorating slightly because they weren’t getting the encouragement that they needed. And I think we naturally need encouragement and that needs to start with ourselves.

The Power of Internal Validation

JAY SHETTY: Yes, yes, exactly. And I think we all know that. We all know the days—also just to show how external validation also doesn’t carry us and what you’re saying about the voice in your head.

We all know days where everyone keeps telling you you’re amazing and you don’t feel it.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: It doesn’t matter how many people tell you you look amazing, you feel amazing, you’re doing amazing when you don’t feel it. Because when you don’t feel it, all of that just doesn’t matter.

But then when you feel it inside, even if someone said you didn’t do amazing, you can still feel confident in yourself.

The Third Truth: You Can’t Please Everyone

ROXIE NAFOUSI: So the third truth is you can’t please all the people all the time. My mom used to say that to me growing up. And when I first started getting into this work, I remember thinking, you know, I was a self-confessed addict a year ago and now I’m what, trying to speak about self-development. Like, who is going to, like, what are people going to think? They’re going to think I’m a joke. Like they’re not going to take me seriously. They’re going to think I’m too young. They’re going to think this or that.

And I remember finding it really challenging because, you know, it was stopping me doing what I really wanted to pursue. And then I thought about the people that inspired me, whether that was, you know, Brené Brown, Tony Robbins, you, you know, all these amazing celebrities I followed, whatever. And I thought, you know what? Of all those people, there are loads of people who also share my admiration and, you know, love and, you know, and all of that, but equally there are also people that don’t.

And then I thought, well, wait, that’s true for everyone I know, whether famous or not famous, there are people that like them and people that just don’t. They just don’t get them. And for me, I suddenly realized, like, nobody on earth is universally liked. Nobody. And that was so freeing because I was like, oh, okay, well, I don’t need to keep trying. I don’t need to be in pursuit of this thing, which is that everybody will like me. I just want, and I hear that a lot from people. I just want everyone to like me.

JAY SHETTY: Really?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah. And I think it’s something that I hear people say time and time again. It’s like the sooner you realize that that’s never going to happen, the better. And look. And so really I think the best thing you can do is just be who you like whilst respecting and being a kind, you know, human. But know that there’s never going to be an opportunity for you to be some, some everybody’s cup of tea. Right?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Fourth Truth: It’s Not Personal

ROXIE NAFOUSI: And then that kind of brings me to the fourth truth, which is it’s not personal. And the way I think of it is like this. Everything in the universe is energy and we are all energy too. And we have all met thousands of people in our lifetime and aren’t there just a few that you just clicked with instantly? Like, you couldn’t say why, you just felt this instant bond, this connection.

And probably most people listening will have someone in their life that they can say, I have no idea why we’re friends, I have no idea why we’re together. We just click. But we’re so different in every way. And for me, I’m like, yeah, it’s energy. And just in the way that there are people that you absolutely just click with and you can’t say why. There are people that you just don’t energetically, you just don’t vibe.

And you might have a friend that has another friend and you meet them for the first time and you’re like, what were they? What are they so obsessed with this person for? Right? And when you see things as energy, you are so much more able to stop taking it personally. It’s not. If you don’t get on with someone, it’s not about you and it’s not about them, you’re just not the right match.

And this is so helpful in all situations in our life, whether it’s at work, because there will be some colleagues you get on with, some you don’t. You just rub each other the wrong way. But it’s also so good with dating. So for people who are dating who, you know, when you go into dating, I mean, dating is so triggering anyway on our confidence and self-worth. But, you know, it’s so when we go into dates, we always go in with this mindset of, you know, I really hope they like me. Right?

And I always think you should actually be going and saying, I really hope I like them. Right. But if it doesn’t work out, if there isn’t a second date, it’s so easy for us to just go, what was wrong with me? And instead I just want people to adopt this mentality of it just wasn’t an energetic fit. It’s just not personal. And I think it’s just so helpful to adopt that mindset.

People Pleasing vs. Making People Happy

JAY SHETTY: What’s the difference between people pleasing and making people happy?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Wanting to make people happy and to bring happiness into people’s lives is full of. I think it can come from a confident place, a place of, I have so much love that I want to share it with the people around me. So it comes from a place of worth, whereas people pleasing actually comes from a place of low self-worth.

People pleasing is, I have to please others because I’m not worthy of putting myself first. I have to please others because I need them to like me. I have to please others because I need to. I need to be enough. And so I think, yeah, I think making people happy can come comes from a place of worth and people pleasing comes from a lack of self-worth.

JAY SHETTY: That’s so good. That’s such a great answer. Because I think sometimes we think, oh, I’m just not going to care what anyone thinks.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And I always hear both, right? You hear one end of the spectrum. It’s like, I wish everyone liked me.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: The other end is, well, I don’t care what anyone thinks. I’m like, well, neither of those are real or true because you can’t just not care. If everyone just didn’t care what anyone thought, by the way, there’d be no need for art or music or philosophy or anything because we wouldn’t care what anyone thought. So no one would listen to this podcast and no one would read a book ever. No one would watch a movie because we don’t care what anyone thinks.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And no one would ever do that for us. So we’d lose so much connection. So caring is important. But I. But I love what you said about how when it’s really about making people happy, it’s actually about them. And when it’s about people pleasing, it’s all about you.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And it was never about them. You’re doing that so that they think you’re a nice person.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Whereas when you’re just trying to make someone happy, it’s because you’re nice.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And that’s who you are. Or you’re kind, and that’s who you are. And. And it says so much more about who you are and how you want to live. And when I think about this idea of being liked by everybody, there’s also a part of us, Roxie, that doesn’t want that friction. A lot of it’s just conflict avoidance, where we want people to like us not because we so need them to like us, but because we just don’t want to have friction with anyone.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Right.

The Magic of Connection

JAY SHETTY: And what you said, which I appreciate, is actually, it’s about energy and there’s so much be. If you. If everyone liked you and you liked everyone, there would not be that special friend.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: There would not be that loving partner. There wouldn’t be that memory that you have.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: With a sibling or someone. Because if you liked everyone and everyone liked you.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You didn’t get that magic.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah, that’s so true. I love.

JAY SHETTY: You said it.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Did I? Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You said about energy. Made me think of it. Like there are. You said there were some people you just click.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: No, it’s true.

JAY SHETTY: Makes that person so special. If everyone liked you and you liked everyone.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: No, that’s so true. Who’s that person?

JAY SHETTY: They’re just another person.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I love the way you’ve just phrased it. Because everything you need, you need duality in life. Like, we need challenges and dark days, so we appreciate the good days. We were talking earlier about habituation. Right. How we become desensitized to things, and if we just got on with everyone in our lives, we would be desensitized to the feeling of getting on with people. So it’s like you need to have people that you maybe don’t vibe the most with. Exactly. As you say. To really appreciate the ones you do.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. To really experience the magic of connection and go, oh, yeah, we have something special. Like, you would never say that.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: If everyone liked you and you liked everyone. You can never say we have something special.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes. It’s like, okay, if you date someone. I was just thinking an Aquarius specifically, but no, there are some people. Okay, forget the date thing. But there are some people who are just friends with everyone, you know, And I know people like this who are such social butterflies, but they don’t have those one or two really special and deep connections. And I wonder if that’s kind of part of the same thing.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah. Because they get along with everyone.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And you have a lot of shallow relationships. Yeah. And it doesn’t. It doesn’t fuel you. It doesn’t fuel you. I was going to ask you about that, though. For those of us who just don’t want conflict and you just don’t want to get into it somewhere like, oh, why can’t we just have peace and like everyone, how do you deal with that rejection, that conflict, that feeling of that person doesn’t like me. What do you do with that? Because of course, there is a feeling of, I feel rejected, I feel outed, they didn’t invite me. What do you do with that?

Dealing with Rejection Through Radical Acceptance

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I think it just comes down to acceptance. Like that kind of idea of radical acceptance. Right. Because I think that, yes, rejection is hard. Right. And it’s challenging and it tests the foundation of our confidence. Right. Because it’s really, you know, it’s a horrible thing to experience and everybody’s gone through it.

But I truly believe that you can learn to deal with rejection in a way that doesn’t lead to this, like, great discomfort. And I think you can deal with somebody just not really liking you without it becoming something that you constantly overthink or ruminate on. And that just comes from this mindset of it doesn’t make it about me. I can’t really know what really is going on for them.

And there’s that. I can’t remember what the quote is. You might remember about how our perceptions, what people think of us is not really to do with us, it’s to do with them. It’s their own experiences, their own wounds, their own, you know, all their past things. And, you know, perhaps you remind them of. Of someone in their life that hurt them in the past. Like, there’s just so many different factors to us to it, like I said earlier, that have nothing to do with us.

And so it’s just. It’s acceptance. It’s also not making it. Things can. You cannot get on with someone, and it not need to be an argument, and it not need to be a big thing, and it not need to mean anything. And I think sometimes we just try too hard to attach meaning to everything.

The Second Arrow

JAY SHETTY: I think that’s it. It’s not everything means something. And you reminded me of that principle from the Buddha, that’s the second arrow, which is. The first arrow is the rejection or the conflict that hurts. But the second arrow is the one you shoot at yourself because you’re adding meaning to that first arrow. So you got rejected, but the. Your takeaway of the second arrow is because I’m not good enough.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: When really the reason was they were projecting their past onto you, they were projecting a wound onto you. They were just busy, they were tired, they were exhausted. There’s a million reasons. And like you said, you’re never going to figure it out. And so you can play Sherlock Holmes and play investigator and try and figure out the detective version, but you still will never be satisfied with the answer.

And so the Buddha says, don’t fire that second arrow because the first arrow you weren’t in charge of, but the second arrow, you were. And that second arrow is just your story, your meaning, which you’re just making up. And we’ve become the best fiction writers.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: When it’s writing the nightmare version of why this happened.

The Power of Recognizing Our Mental Stories

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Totally. We’re constantly filling in the blanks of stories that don’t exist. I said recently on my… By the way, that was such a beautiful story. I mean, I illustrated it so well.

But I was saying, I did a post on Instagram the other day, like, you know, when you’re walking behind someone and your mind has created a picture of what they look like, and when they turn around, you’re like, oh, my God, they look so different to what I thought.

But it’s just a really clear reminder that our minds are just constantly creating these stories and these narratives and these images that aren’t based on reality. They are based on so many other things that are not that stop us from being truly objective.

And so really understanding that you cannot trust your stories, your thoughts, you know, it’s, I think, really powerful.

JAY SHETTY: I’ve been asking you these questions. You’ve been nailing the answers. I’m asking you more of these.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Honestly, you ask me such different questions. It’s so great. You really push me to think about confidence differently. I really… Yeah, it’s really great. Thank you.

Taking Responsibility Without Self-Blame

JAY SHETTY: No, but you’ve done the work, and it’s why we can go everywhere. Like, it’s exciting for me because I want people to read the book, and they’re going to find the great eight steps in the book. And the advice is so… And you’ve got, you know, the affirmations. You’ve got journaling prompts.

Like, you’re giving so many practical tips, but I think this conversation is like really trying to figure out like what are we struggling with?

And I wanted to ask you what’s the… How do we stop thinking that everything’s our fault and still take responsibility to make changes? Because I think where we get caught is we… When someone breaks up with you, you think it was all my fault. If I did this, they would have stayed. If I changed, they would still be here. Oh, if I planned that birthday, they’d still be in my life.

And we make it all our fault, which isn’t the case because it’s always a two way thing. Yeah, but sometimes if we don’t think anything’s our fault, then we don’t take responsibility. So how do you stop thinking everything’s your fault but still take responsibility?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I think this comes down to like there’s so… I think there’s so many things involved in this. I think one actually doesn’t come from anything personal, but it’s more about this trust. Being able to have a full trust in divine timing and a full trust that your life is unfolding the way that it’s supposed to.

Because in that sense, when something like this happens, when someone breaks up with you, when you lose the job, when whatever it is, actually if you have a deep connection to a greater power, whatever that is, it might be God. For me, it’s just the universe. And the energy and power of the universe might be a spiritual realm. Whatever it is, when you have a deep connection to that, you are able to surrender to things with such greater ease and resilience.

And step four of my manifest book is “Overcome Tests from the Universe.” And that really is all about being able to persist through challenges. And it’s done with a knowing that there is always reward on the other side.

And so with that overall mindset, you are able, I think, to attach less meaning like we spoke about before to these things that happen to us. But I think that equally when it comes to being able to… How do we take responsibility for the things that we need to?

I think that comes from getting to know ourselves. It comes from self awareness. I think it comes from a genuine desire to be the best version of ourselves that we can be. And I think that it comes from, you know, when I, when we talk about confidence and why confidence impacts every area of our lives, it’s a kind of, I feel like confidence plays into everything.

So actually the more confident we are, the less that we’re going to blame ourselves for things and the more willing we’re going to be to be able to actually say, hey, you know, in a compassionate way. Hey, you know what? Let me see. What are the things that I could have changed here? What can I take responsibility for? And I’m going to let go of the things that I can’t. How can I be better? But how can I also accept the situation as it is?

And so I think there’s this, like, fine balance between it. And I think that… God, I just… I’m so passionate about talking to people, whether it’s about manifesting, but especially about confidence, because I just know how many people listening are having those thoughts that you’ve just mentioned where they think I just… If I had done things differently.

And they live in that regret, in that shame, in that guilt. And I think those are such overpowering emotions that really infiltrate every part of our lives, kind of. They’re like… Like silently there, just bringing us down. And, you know, it’s… And like we said earlier, you know, it’s exhausting. So, yeah.

The Myth of External Confidence

JAY SHETTY: So you’ve laid out these eight steps really simply for people to follow. And as I was reading them, I was thinking, but that’s not what we do to become more confident.

So I think a lot of people think, when I become rich, I’ll be confident. But what’s interesting is you can be rich and insecure. People think, when I become famous, I’ll be confident, but you can be famous and insecure. People think, when I become a successful entrepreneur, when I get this promotion, when I get married, when I get through this, then I’ll be confident.

But you can be all of those things and still insecure, because those things don’t take away insecurity. These things do.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah, I mean, spoiler alert. My eight steps is not get married, get rich, get famous.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. But I think our brain makes us believe those are the things.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, I… I’m so glad you brought this up because, you know, the work in manifestation. Right. I think is all about goals. It’s about getting to a place.

And I actually had to put a disclaimer on this because I realized that what people were doing is they were expecting that happiness, confidence, joy would be found at the end of this goal. Right. So exactly as you say, I will be happy when I get this promotion, when I have this many followers, when I’m in a relationship.

And what I started to really realize that I needed to share with people is that reaching those goals is never going to make you happy. And we know this because we know how many successful famous people are deeply unhappy.

And what I realized was, okay, how can I try and explain to people that how can I… How can I get people to have a goal, to stay motivated? Because we need something to work towards for our mental health. We need to be moving forward. How can I get people to find this balance between moving towards something but not expecting happiness at the goal?

And I realized that it all came down to an emotional attachment. People think I will be enough when, I will be valued when, I will be loved when, when. And that’s why the work of confidence is so important. Because actually, what you realize is you need to feel loved now, you need to feel valued now, you need to feel worthy now.

So that when you get the goal, when you get the thing you can enjoy here. Because if you don’t, you’ll still be miserable.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so well said. Roxy, did you ever feel you did something that you think would make you confident but then didn’t make you feel confident in your own journey?

Roxie’s Journey Through Self-Loathing and Addiction

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes. Yes, many, many times. So I have been on a very real and profound journey of my own confidence. And I don’t even know where to start with it, really.

It’s… I remember the first time I looked in the mirror when I was seven years old, and I remember it so distinctly and looking and just thinking, I am so ugly, like really ugly, like monstrous. And throughout my childhood, I really held onto this belief that I was just hideous.

And at this time, when you’re a young child and you’re kind of learning your place in the world and forming the beliefs about, you know, who you are, what I was seeing was that I was rejected by my peers. I was… I felt very alone all the time. And the people that were popular and loved were people that were beautiful and the girls had blond hair and blue eyes and not the girls that look like me.

And I don’t even know where to begin with this whole journey. I never felt worthy and I never felt enough. And I think my self loathing was so, so extreme. And I learned to cope with the extremity of my inner critic and my feelings of low self worth with coping mechanisms like controlling my eating, which then turned to alcohol, which then became drugs.

And I was an addict and went to my first NA Narcotics Anonymous meeting when I was 21. I continued through my addiction until I was 28. And a big part of what I was so addicted to was this false feeling of confidence, something I had never had.

But obviously when I’d come down from that, the self loathing would come to the surface. Again. And I always felt sort of quite disgusted by myself. But I would say it was like a bubbling thing because I had the drugs to constantly offset it.

But when I fell pregnant when I was 28, I had to stop all the drugs very suddenly. And so I was dealing with kind of all the pain that I was running from. And what really came to light in this time, and I didn’t know what it was then, but I do know now, was a very, very severe body dysmorphia disorder.

So at this time, I had… Through my pregnancy, I gained sort of five stone. I was binge eating. But from almost within like a week of finding out I was pregnant and giving everything up, I… I became very, very fixated on how disgusting my face was.

Battling Body Dysmorphia

ROXIE NAFOUSI: And… It’s really hard to describe how loud and how revolted I felt by myself. It’s a revulsion. Imagine something that you see. Maybe you’re squeamish when it comes to surgery and you see something come up on Instagram and you just get that feeling of disgust.

That was how I felt when I looked in the mirror. And I eventually got to a point where I stopped leaving the house. I wouldn’t see anybody because I thought I was too grotesque to be.

JAY SHETTY: While you were pregnant?

Understanding Body Dysmorphic Disorder

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes, while I was pregnant. And this was like a really dark time of my life anyway. And then after I was pregnant. Let’s fast forward. The self-loathing is just there. It’s a constant thing, this lack of self-worth.

And then we come into Covid and suddenly you’re interacting with people on camera a lot. And this kind of my BDD, which I didn’t know what it was at the time, became uncontrollable, as in every. I’m at this point working through my career. So I had started doing workshops and then at the beginning of COVID I started doing webinars.

For two years I did webinars every month and I did them all with my camera off. So I don’t know if anybody ever knew that that was why. I think I used to say that it was because I thought it would be a better experience for list to listen, which in part is true. I feel like when you’re listening to a podcast, you concentrate.

But really it was because I thought that if I had my camera on, people would be too revolted by my face and that they would. It would disgust them the way that it disgusted me. And I never would never ever show my face online unless I had a filter on it. And I thought this was normal. I thought I was just really self-conscious and that I just didn’t have good self-esteem.

And I thought it’s just because I need to change my face, I just need to do something and if I just looked different then I wouldn’t feel this way. It felt kind of almost simple to me. It’s like, yeah, I hate myself, but this is why. And so in 2021, I had had chronic sinusitis for years because of the drug use and I had to have an operation on my sinus.

And I was like, great, this is my opportunity. And actually I’d never considered having a rhinoplasty before, but as soon as I knew I had to have an operation, my nose, I was like, yes, I can change the shape of my nose. And then finally I won’t have this voice in my head.

So I had a rhinoplasty thinking this is going to be the thing that changes me. And I think a lot of people will relate to this or who have had surgery thinking it’s going to change the way you feel about yourself. And after the surgery, I realized I felt exactly the same and if not worse.

Facing the Camera

And at this time I start going into this work, this line of work. I start showing up because I want to spread my message and I start having to be in front of cameras. And it’s. I don’t even. I’m so sorry because, you know, I’ve never spoken about this properly and it’s really hard to explain.

I was convinced even after I’d had the rhinoplasty, I was so convinced that I was just too disgusting to be looked at and that everybody that would meet me would just be thinking about how ugly I was.

So then 2022, Manifest, my first book comes out and I’m obviously so passionate. This is my purpose. My purpose is to use all the pain that I’ve been through in my life to try and inspire others and hopefully help other people. And so I have this real desire to help and share my message and talk about it.

And that means going on, you know, if I get the opportunity to go on TV, go on podcast. And I was so determined I was not going to let this horrible monster in my mind stop me from doing the things that I wanted to do to fulfill my purpose. But it was excruciating.

So every single time I would go on camera of any sort, I would have a panic attack before then I’d be fine during. And then I’d have a panic attack after. I mean, the first time I sat in this chair, just before coming, I had a full blown panic attack. It was just. And it all came from this.

The Shame of Body Dysmorphic Disorder

And I feel so much. The reason I’ve never spoken about this is because there is so much shame around what I’m about to talk about, I think for loads of people who have experienced it. But I had this real obsession of thinking that I was just too disgusting to be seen. And it just came out all the time.

And my team around me could see how real this was. It wasn’t just, oh, I’m feeling, oh, I don’t look so good today. And then you just kind of get on with your day. It was more than that. It was this all-consuming, ruminating thought of disgust, revulsion, ugly, horrible, nobody should look at me.

And eventually somebody said to me, I think you have BDD, Body Dysmorphia Disorder. Now, I didn’t know what it was and I thought that if I did, surely that must be about your body. Well, it doesn’t. Body Dysmorphia Disorder and BDD can be about your face, it can be about your body.

And what it is is a form of OCD. It’s an anxiety disorder, which is a form of OCD. So it’s an obsessive compulsion. Thinking that kind of comes with a checking behavior or some behavior of sorts for some people might be mirror checking. I recognize it might be asking for reassurance.

And it’s no different to somebody having an obsessive thought about, you know, have they turned the light switches off or something bad is going to happen if I don’t do the switches three times. So it’s the same pattern of behavior in your mind, but it’s to do with that. You look so becoming obsessed with a perceived flaw and thinking that it’s really noticeable to other people.

And it’s so incredibly damaging to one’s way of life. And something that’s really hard with BDD is nobody wants to talk about it because it seems vain. And I have been so afraid to talk about it. And even now I’m thinking, should I be talking about this? Because there is. It feels like it’s just about vanity.

And I see why it seems like that, but it’s so much more. It is this deep belief that you are so unworthy and unlovable because of your appearance. And a lot of people that have BDD will do everything on the outside to fix it in the way that I did, you know, have a rhinoplasty, have Botox, have filler, whatever it is.

But when you realize that you’re left with the same thought patterns, you realize that it’s not about what’s on the outside. You can try and change something, but unless you do the work within, nothing is going to help you.

Finding Help and Treatment

And realizing that I had an anxiety disorder was very helpful for me. I realized that it wasn’t that I was just. I realized then that there was something I could do, I could find methods to help whether that was CBT and actually, and I’ve never shared this and didn’t I ever would, but I actually went on medication on anti-anxiety medication.

It’s medication that’s used often for lots of different things. Depression, OCD and severe anxiety. But because I paired that with all this work, it was absolutely life-changing for me.

And the way I can describe the last two years when I kind of started being on camera to getting to a point where I finally felt more comfortable, I could manage it better, is like every time I, it’s like asking somebody with an eating disorder sit down and eat this cake. That is the only way I can describe it to somebody is it’s such an overwhelming experience and you know, it influences every area of your life. Your friendships, your socializing, your dating life, everything.

And now I found so. And the only reason I’m sharing this, really. Why am I sharing this now? Firstly, I think probably just because it’s still a part of my life. And so I think that I had a really. I still get a lot of flare-ups when I’m tired, when I’m stressed, it will come up.

So yesterday for example, I was doing all these amazing things here in LA, but in my head I was like, I just completely reverted back to my old thought patterns. I’m revolting, I’m disgusting. And it’s weird because I never have these thoughts about anyone else. I don’t care about how anyone looks. I’ve never thought, if only they looked better. Oh God. I feel really nervous about talking about this. I just don’t know if it sounds. Oh, it’s really hard.

JAY SHETTY: It is hard. It is.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Can I jump in please?

The Courage to Share

JAY SHETTY: When anyone shares something that they’ve been struggling with, to me it shows one of the greatest expressions of confidence because it’s so hard to talk about it because you know that people are going to have their opinions. You have your own judgments of it. You’re still naturally dealing with it. As we all are.

So I personally just want to thank you for being so confident in actually sharing it, because I don’t think you could do that if you weren’t working on your inner self.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Because that’s the hardest part, really, is admitting out loud to yourself that this is what I’m going through and this is where I’m at. So just thank you for your vulnerability and confidence.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Strength in Vulnerability

JAY SHETTY: Because that’s the hardest thing. I remember coaching a leader, and they’d been going through a lot of anxiety. This is a CEO of a company with half a million employees, and they were going through so much anxiety and stress in their personal life, and everything was falling apart at the same time. This company doing exceptionally well.

And while they were going through it, at one point, when they were better versed in being able to explain it, I think you explained BDD so well, as to someone who doesn’t know much about it. I said. I encouraged them. I said, maybe you should tell your team, your exec team, your leaders, so that they’re aware.

And they said to me, they said, how can I tell them? I said, what do you mean? They said, well, if I tell them, they’re going to think I’m weak. And I said, no, I think when you tell them, they’re going to realize you’re strong because they’re all dealing with similar things and they’re scared of telling you because they don’t think you know what they’re going through.

And so I think there are going to be so many people listening right now who go, Roxie, thank you for saying that, because I just assumed you have it perfect and your life’s perfect and you’re so confident. And actually you’re showing me that what you said earlier, that you can be a masterpiece and a work in progress all at the same time, is actually what we’re all dealing with.

And as soon as we believe someone is fully confident, that doesn’t fully help us. Because then we’re always measuring ourselves, thinking, why am I not there? And when we realize, oh, everyone’s healing, there’s no one who’s healed, then as long as I’m healing, I’m on the right path. So I just think, hopefully, I think people will listen and feel that way.

Expanding Our Compassion

The second thing I’ll say is, to me, there’s. I think we know very little about the human mind and brain, especially when it comes to a lot of these anxiety disorders. I have friends, my wife has friends who have severe cases of OCD. And it’s so easy when you hear about the problem to just be like, how does that make any sense? It doesn’t make any sense. Just do it anyway.

And we can kind of throw these band-aid answers onto severe issues that we actually don’t understand. And the more I’ve done, the work I’ve been doing in coaching and my friends who are therapists that I learned from, and when we’re working on clients together and I’m learning about what clients are going through, the more compassion and empathy I’ve gained for things that I don’t understand.

Because it’s so easy to be like, well, my brain doesn’t work that way and I can’t compute it and comprehend it. So that just sounds really ridiculous. But the reality is that when you go through something yourself, you then go, oh, crap. I remember me and my friends didn’t believe. When you were in your teens, you didn’t believe depression was real.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I was just going to say that I used to think the same thing.

JAY SHETTY: We were young. You didn’t believe depression was real. And then you go through. I’ve been through depressive episodes in my life. You go through it and you go, God, I didn’t even think my brain could go there.

And anyone who has a friend who’s gone through depression, who’s potentially even had suicidal thoughts, anyone who’s had anyone in their life has gone, that you’ve seen how quickly someone that you thought was happy, confident and well, became all of the opposite things.

And so I, regardless of whether we immediately understand what you’re saying, I just hope we use as an opportunity to expand our compassion and empathy for each other, because I think we know so little about the human mind and human brain and all of these things.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And. Oh, sorry, you were going to say something.

The Power of Self-Belief and Managing Anxiety

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah. I mean, the mind is just an extremely powerful place. And I think that it’s true. I mean, that often I say that for somebody, if you find a couple and one person has depression and one has never experienced it, it can be very hard for that person to understand. Like they’ll just snap out of it.

And what I do hope that happens in sharing this is firstly, I think BDD is undiagnosed. So I hope that perhaps there are people listening that actually do have BDD, but didn’t know, will feel so much relief to understand that it’s not just them being super vain or this or that. If it is impacting your life to a way that is truly negatively impacting your life, then there is help to be found through different therapies. You know, medication is out there. You know, there are things that can help.

But I also think, yeah, I mean, the reason that I am so in love with this book is because I am somebody who literally has lived with this, what is I now recognize as an anxiety disorder that is rooted in me telling myself how awful I am. And I have had that inner voice since I was seven, telling me I am disgusting, I am unlovable, I am not enough. Whether that I thought that because of the way I look or whatever at the root of it was, I am not enough as I am. That is what I have believed my whole life.

I am now sat in this chair and I truly believe I am enough. I actually do love who I am. And it’s not that I don’t feel it. I told you, yesterday was a tough day for me, but I knew how to manage it. I knew how to overcome it. But 90% of the time, I feel amazing. Not in the way I look. I just feel amazing as a human. I feel proud of who I am and what I can offer the world.

So if I can go through that level of extreme self-hate and get to a point where actually can sit on a podcast and say, I like who I am, truly, I think anyone can. And these are the steps that help me get there. And I love them so much. And I just can’t wait for people to feel this level of freedom because it really is quite an extraordinary experience. And knowing how hard it can be on the other side, oh, my God, it’s just such a relief to not hate yourself all the time.

JAY SHETTY: I think it’s also really from what I see, from what you’re saying is, because it’s been a journey while you’re writing, while you’re speaking, is that you can have these thoughts, you can mask them, work on them, and still do things. And I think a lot of us feel like until I figure everything out, I can’t do anything.

And what I think you’re saying and showing is, no, I’ve been feeling all of this. Here are the management methods that I’ve come up with in the steps that actually I’m going to deal with it, and then I can still do these things. And partly what you’re saying, though, Roxie, I think is part of you being a public figure too, because, and this applies to everyone now, it’s not just public figures. It truly applies to everyone. All of us see our reflection too much.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes, we really do.

The Problem of Overexposure to Our Own Reflection

JAY SHETTY: We all look at our faces more times every day than we ever would have in the past. When you grew up in that tribe or that village, when would you ever see your reflection? You were looking at straw huts and wooden spoons, you know, just whatever. You’re never seeing your reflection.

And now you’re on a Zoom call and you’re staring at your reflection. You’re on a FaceTime call and you’re looking at your own reflection. You go past a shop window, you look at your reflection. We’re on our phones all day. We’re so overexposed that I think all of us, if we’re honest with ourselves, overanalyze ourselves physically and our face, because we see our face more than ever. I just don’t think we were ever meant to see our face this much.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: So true.

JAY SHETTY: For someone who has an anxiety disorder that’s connected to that, I can only imagine how that’s amplified because it’s amplified even for people who don’t have that anxiety disorder. And I’m overexposed to my face. And so I think it’s also just, we’re just looking at our faces more than we ever meant to. And that’s hard.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: It’s so true.

JAY SHETTY: And I think everyone can relate to that, whether they have an anxiety disorder or not. Whether they struggle with something else or not, I think everyone knows that we’re all looking at our face all day.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: It’s so true. I never considered that. We do look at it way too much. Wade, my co-parent, he’s just got a house and he’s got no mirrors in it. And he’s like, I’ve never felt better. And he doesn’t use his phone that much either. And he’s like, it’s amazing.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah. In the monastery in India, they didn’t have any mirrors. And that was the first time I had experienced what that felt like. And forgetting how you look physically, which I don’t anymore, I’m always on camera, Instagram and my video, so I don’t know what that feels like anymore as well.

But I remember at that time forgetting how I looked allowed me to go inward in a way that I can never imagine doing because I forgot my physical self. And then you can deal with your mental and emotional self, but if you’re always overexposed to your physical self, you actually don’t think of yourself as anything more. So when you’re saying I’m amazing as a human, that’s going beyond your physical self. But because we deal with everyone just by our physical selves, we think this is all we are.

People Care How You Make Them Feel

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Exactly. There’s a great, you know, I used to say to people a lot, and it’s something I would tell myself in all the times I would go on, you know, to do an interview and really just be thinking, oh, my God, the person interviewing me is just thinking about how disgusting I am. Or everyone online is going to just be talking about how ugly I am. And those were thoughts.

And then I would come out to one thing. People do not care how you look. They care how you make them feel. And that was what kept me showing up. And I still remind myself of it all the time. And I think that, and it’s true. I think about, and I would always think about all the people I love, admire, enjoy being around, enjoy hearing, watching. None of them are because, oh, they look a certain way. All of it is because they make me feel a certain way. They make me feel inspired. They make me feel empowered.

But this is the thing with anxiety disorders. It makes no sense, right? So I can rationally think that. It doesn’t mean the thoughts don’t come sometimes anyway. But I think this ability, when you can rationalize it and remind yourself of these things, it can be so powerful.

JAY SHETTY: Powerful for us to gain a bit more understanding of it. So what happens when someone says, well, Roxie, you look amazing. I think you look great. When someone says that, what does the disorder do internally? How do you feel when you receive that? So on a day that you’re not feeling your best, physically obvious. And your face, as we talked about, it’s not your body, it’s your face. And someone’s like, oh, but you look great. What’s your thought process? What happens?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Well, nothing, because as we said earlier, if, when you don’t think about it, about yourself, it’s, for me, if I’m having, now, if I’m having a bad, before, it was just every day. It was just constant. But now let’s say I’m having a bad BDD day, yesterday, right? That was a bad day. It’s a physical anxiety. So you just feel off and then you just have ruminating thoughts.

And so you might, it’s just a ruminating inner critic. And it’s just a feeling of anxiousness. It’s really physical in the body. And it just, it’s annoying. I’m just like, oh, not again, not today. Because you want to enjoy the things. But I’ve, as I said, I noticed when it happens, when I’m stressed, when I’m hormonal, when I’m tired, but I also know now that it will pass. I woke up this morning and I was free from it and I was like, okay, we’re back, we’re fine. You know, it was just, I was also jet lagged yesterday, so I was probably, probably that as well. So, you know, it’s something that you can learn to manage.

I also think I’ll just say one more thing on it that I think it’s important is that there are more and more people having surgery now. And I think that a lot of it will be coming from undiagnosed BDD. And so I just think if people can just, if they are thinking about surgery and there’s so much we’re seeing on social media, you know, just really ask yourself, is this, is there something bigger, more healing that needs to be done?

I am all for people doing whatever they want to do. I mean, I don’t really regret my rhinoplasty. I do do Botox. I do do things like that. I like to feel good. But is it coming from, is it coming from a place or can you make sure that the healing is really happening alongside it?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I think that’s a great note. And that applies to pretty much everything in life is, no one’s saying you don’t want to go out and become successful and don’t want to have big dreams. It’s just making sure you’re doing the inner healing at the same time so that as you said, when you get there, you can actually experience it.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

You Are a Soul, You Have a Body

JAY SHETTY: And to be honest, one of the biggest things that all of this reminds me of because of so many of anxiety disorders today and the challenges we have is that there’s this beautiful line from C.S. Lewis that I love and he said that you don’t have a soul, you are the soul and you have a body.

And I love that because I think we live in such a physical world where the body is all we are. And the more spiritual work I’ve done and leaned into over the last two decades, the more I’ve realized that the more I think I’m the body, the less enough I feel.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: But the more I believe that I’m spirit and consciousness, soul and energy, the more abundant I feel. Because that’s what the spirit is. The body is limited.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: The body will wither, the body will die, the body will destruct and the body will get ill. That’s why the body doesn’t feel enough.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Because it isn’t. It doesn’t have the longevity that the soul does. But there’s a part of us, inside of us that believes we are eternal and blissful and full of knowledge and have the ability to outlast. It’s the reason why we want to live forever. And we’re trying to stretch the body to live forever.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: But the body doesn’t really have that ability. Maybe we’ll get to 150 years, but it doesn’t have eternality attached to it. It’s just not meant to be. So to me, it’s always been like, again, I’m not saying I work out, I take supplements, I take care of my health. I do all the things. I’m not saying to ignore your body. I’m saying that there is a part of you that has been left alone for too long.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And reconnecting with that through these eight steps.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: It engages you back into. And one of my favorite ones that I wanted to talk about was step five, celebrate yourself. And I wanted to kind of get to this one because to me, I think the biggest difficulty, as you were saying when you ask audiences, hey, is anyone here free of self-doubt? And no one puts up their hand. I often ask when I’m in an audience, when was the last time you noticed and celebrated something good you did? And no one will put their hand up.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Interesting.

The Importance of Celebrating Yourself

JAY SHETTY: Because we have such a discomfort. Think about people dealing with compliments. If someone compliments you, most of us don’t know what to do with it and we shrink and we just go away and we kind of hide. Obviously, there’s some narcissists who love being complimented. You know, the opposite, where it’s like their ego gets full. But I think most of us just go, oh, thanks. Yeah, cool. Oh, really? You feel that way. We almost question it. Talk to me about why celebrating yourself is so important.

Learning to Celebrate Who We Are

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Learning to celebrate who we are and all that we have to offer is such an important step of this confidence journey. And I think that to be able to do it, we first need to understand why so many of us struggle with it.

One of the reasons is that we’ve really glorified humility. So humility has become this thing that is a very desirable trait that across cultures being humble is something that we really regard highly, but most of us have just taken it way too far. So we become self-deprecating. We don’t want to accept compliments, we don’t want to accept that perhaps it was our hard work that led to this result. In fact, we’ll kind of bat it off as a team effort or say that it was just luck.

And I know that for me, definitely, and I know lots of people listening will have grown up with the evil eye in their culture and the evil eye really kind of hammered in this point. So the evil eye really for me, my mum would always say that, you know, don’t appear too happy, too successful, too good. Be humble always. Because if you’re not humble you will attract negativity, you will attract jealousy and bad things will happen to you.

And it would be to the point where when I got a new house, she’d put a dirty shoe in the hallway or she’d say to me, you know, when I had my son, she’d say, don’t let anyone look at him, you know, don’t let anyone look at his face. Like it was a genuine fear of anything good, you know, and that having this negative impact on your life.

And so subconsciously I think we start forming these kind of beliefs that if I seem happy, if I seem successful, if I celebrate myself in any way, something bad’s going to happen or people are going to be jealous or people just aren’t going to like me. And so we start to really stop celebrating ourselves because of that.

But another big reason is because we have confused confidence with arrogance. And they are not the same thing.

The Difference Between Confidence and Arrogance

JAY SHETTY: Tell me the difference between confidence and arrogance.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: So arrogance says “I am the best” and confidence says “I’m working to be the best that I can be.” And I think that we all know what it’s like to be around somebody who is truly arrogant. You know, they can be demeaning, they undermine you, they make you feel small, it’s not nice. And so of course you can understand why we don’t want to come across that way.

But what people don’t understand is that you can be confident in who you are without being arrogant. And in fact, if you’re worried about being arrogant, you’re not, because arrogant people aren’t that self-aware.

And I think that we have a collective responsibility to encourage each other to step into our most confident selves. And we can do that by giving each other permission to celebrate ourselves. You know, I think that culturally, there is nothing more triggering to people than confidence. A confident person can really rub someone up the wrong way, for sure.

And we start saying they’re so up themselves, they think, who do they think they are? We talk about each other in this way. And so imagine you’re hearing this in conversation. Then you’re thinking, God, I don’t want people to say that about me. So I better not seem too confident. I better not accept praise. I better not celebrate or say this good thing that happened to me.

JAY SHETTY: So interesting.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I think, you know, we’re doing a disservice to each other. And so I really want to encourage people to celebrate themselves, to be able to accept praise, to be able to say thank you when someone compliments you, to be able to say online if you know something good happened to your business or you got the promotion, or tell your friends, and let’s celebrate each other with that and be like, yes.

Because I personally feel so empowered when I see a confident person. I love being around confident people because I feel like it gives me permission to be that way too. And so I think, you know, it’s something that is both a solo thing that we need to do ourselves, but also something that collectively we can help each other with.

Giving Each Other Permission to Celebrate

JAY SHETTY: It’s almost giving each other permission. Like, I think we all know the friend that you call when you’re having a bad day, but who’s the friend that you can call when you’re having a great day?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Very different.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, very different. And talk about your biggest win.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And a lot of us feel uncomfortable saying to someone, hey, I think I’m going to go chase this new business I want to start. Because we’re scared our friend’s going to say, why are you doing that? Like, what’s wrong with you? Like, just be happy with what you have. Or your friend says to you, oh, you know what? I just got promoted at work. I want to throw a party and whatever. And then you’re scared to say that because you’re scared that someone else is going to feel…

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: That they’re inferior, their life’s not good. And there is that in friendship. Like, in friendship, you do care. You don’t want to make people feel inferior. You don’t want to make people feel upset. And at the same time, you’ve got to hold space for your celebration.

And I think if people could acknowledge every day something they got right, that would help with that heckler and that inner critic inside. Because you’re already doing the opposite anyway.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: You’re already coming up with a long list of everything you got wrong. I know when your head hits the pillow every night you’re thinking, I should have done that at work, should have done that with my kid, and I shouldn’t have said that to my partner. So you’ve already got a list of things you’re not doing. So you already are self-aware and that’s good because you won’t be arrogant.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: But there’s a need to be like, you know what? I nailed that presentation at work today. You know what, I actually was great in that meeting today. You know, I was really happy how I held my own.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: In that difficult conversation with my friend, partner, whatever. Like, what would you consider people? What can people do practically every day or week or month?

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Talk to me about celebrating yourself as a habit.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: Because I think we also wait for the promotion, the wedding and…

Celebrating Small Wins and Everyday Qualities

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Okay, so there’s two things that I really love that are in this step. So one of them is just about celebrating the small wins. So like you said, it’s really noticing what are the small things that you did today that you can be proud of yourself for. When you’re struggling to think, one of the things that I think people can always count on finding somewhere: where in your day did you react better than you would have five years ago?

JAY SHETTY: That’s a great question.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: You know, and I think sometimes I just think that is such a win. Like, do you know what, a year ago that would have really stressed me out. I can sit here now and say, two years ago I would have felt so nervous. And my win today is that I’m here and I’m enjoying it rather than being nervous. So that might be your win, your small win.

Another thing that I love is celebrating your everyday qualities. So often when we think about what can we celebrate about ourselves, we think about the things that we would put on a CV. But I want you to not think about those things. I want you to think about what are the things that make you so unique to you and the close people around you.

So is it that you’re able to make light of situations on a hard day? Is it that you are always the one that’s arranging everyone’s meet up? Is it that you’re the one that gets everyone out the house on time? Is it that you’re the one that always has a handbag filled with things so that when someone needs it, it’s there? Are you the one that always brings the snacks? Are you the one that always gives really good advice to a friend and offers them a new perspective?

What are your everyday qualities? And really, I want you to literally write down a list of them and think of it like your own personal CV and recognize that all these amazing little things, these nuances, these quirks, all these things that you have to offer, what make you this multifaceted, magnificent, unique, wonderful human.

Training Ourselves to See the Good

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I love that. I love that. As a practice, it’s so needed. I feel like if we all noticed, if we all spent time noticing more good within ourselves, we’d notice more good within other people.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And we’d see more good happen in our work, life, family, home, because we’re just training ourselves to see the good. The challenge is when we’ve trained ourselves to only see the bad. We see the bad in ourselves. We see the bad in everyone else.

Someone the other day said this quote to me that I loved, and they said, “Catch people doing things right. Catch people doing things right.” Because we always feel like, oh, I got you. I saw you stealing. I saw you lying. I saw you. But we don’t catch people doing things right. And he said, when you catch people doing things right, they’ll do them again.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: I love that.

JAY SHETTY: They’ll do them more. And so we’ve got to learn to catch people doing things right, because they are. We’re doing things right all the time.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Our friends are doing things right. Our partners are doing things right. Our kids are doing things right. But we never catch them doing something right. We only catch people doing things wrong.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Yeah. You know, it’s really funny because there’s a phenomenon that I can’t remember the name of, but I write about it in the book, which is basically that our brains assume that other people think the way that we do.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: And so one thing that I encourage people to do is really, really watch when you’re judging other people and try to really change that judgment to compassion. Because if we do it less about other people, we will assume people are doing it less about us, and then we’ll give ourselves more freedom to be who we want to be.

Final Thoughts on Confidence

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. So well said, everyone. The book is called Confidence: Eight Steps to Knowing Your Worth. We only touched on a couple of steps today, but I want you to read the book. Master your thoughts. Act with intention. Stop trying to be liked by everybody. Break free from comparison. Listen, celebrate yourself, do hard things, be of service to others. Show up as your best self.

Roxy, as I’ve got to know you over the years, I remember when I got that DM from you in 2022 and we connected and you came on to write Manifest, which I know has helped so many, you know, millions of people around the world. And then to see you write Confidence. But even just the way you showed up today, in your vulnerability and in your confidence, to me that’s a sign that you’re someone who’s doing the work and doing the hardest of it.

And a reminder to everyone who’s listening and watching that, you know, you’re all on your own journey. And the judgment that we are scared of facing from everyone else is really, really tough. And because of that, we don’t often express who we truly are. And who we truly are is this paradoxical, multifaceted, multi-layered person.

And when we allow people to be all of themselves and all of their experiences, we allow ourselves to be all of ourselves and all of our experiences rather than thinking we just have to be one thing. And to me, I’m happy that you’ve shown us the real view of what confidence looks like, which is it’s hard, it’s messy, it’s complicated, it’s layered. And at the same time, it’s something that we can all have while we experience all those emotions.

So, yeah, thank you, Roxy. Thank you so much and thank you. Really excited for people to read the book and connect with you. If you don’t already follow Roxy on social media, please follow her. But Roxy, anything I didn’t ask you that you really want to talk about, anything that’s on your heart or a message that…

ROXIE NAFOUSI: No, honestly, I’m just firstly so grateful to you always for just being so kind and genuine and giving me this space to talk about and asking me such different questions. You’ve pushed me to practice what I preach in that, you know, I was afraid to talk about the BDD stuff in case I was judged, misunderstood, not liked.

And really what I tell people is, you know, you’ve got to be authentically you. And you’ve kind of pushed me out of my comfort zone today in a good way. I mean, you didn’t force me to do it, but you’ve given me the space to do it. And I’m really grateful for that.

And I just hope that for anyone listening, I absolutely know that everybody listening, when they were born into this world, they were born full of self-worth, full of confidence. But somewhere along the way, they learned one thing: that they were not enough as they were.

And I am on a mission to undo that damage so they can come back to that knowing. And the last line of my book is this: “True confidence is knowing that your worth was never up for discussion.”

And I really hope that every single one of you listening, watching comes to that realization so that you can truly unlock your fullest potential. Life is really good on the other side.

JAY SHETTY: Thank you, Roxie.

ROXIE NAFOUSI: Thank you.

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