Tucker Carlson Show: with Tulsi Gabbard – March 26, 2024 (Transcript)

And so it was because of those reasons and looking at leaders like JFK.

Hawaii’s Political History: A Feudal System

TUCKER CARLSON: So can I ask you a question? For people who aren’t familiar with the history of the state, which is actually very interesting —

TULSI GABBARD: It is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Completely different from the history of any other of the 49 states.

TULSI GABBARD: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: It was almost like a feudal system in Hawaii. Is that fair?

TULSI GABBARD: It was, it was. And going back — this is where there was a big shift. And people in the political world ask all the time, why did Hawaii become such a strong Democrat state? It was because there were 4 major landowners that came in and essentially took the land from the local people through the Queen, and jailed and decided, okay, well, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to start growing sugarcane. We’re going to start growing pineapples. And they essentially installed themselves as the government of what was then the territory of Hawaii. And local people really didn’t have a whole lot of say in it.

But through that process, there were immigrants coming from Japan and from the Philippines, from Portugal, from places all over the world seeking opportunity, getting work visas and work contracts to go and work in the fields. And these massive plantation owners essentially treated them like crap. Subhuman living conditions, abysmal pay. And essentially what we would call complete abuse in this day and age. But they got away with it because the people had no voice.

When one group started to rise up and say, hey, we got to stick together and demand better living conditions and better pay — let’s say it was the Filipinos who did it — they said, okay, well, fine, we’re just going to have the Japanese workers come in and take over your fields and leave you with nothing. And so pitting one group against the other.

So in Hawaii, it was the ILWU union primarily that came in and actually started to organize workers. And there were a couple of Democrat political leaders who had failed at the polls previously because they didn’t have the votes. They came in and said, hey, look, we’re going to fight for you. And they did. And that was when Hawaii shifted from Republican to Democrat control because the Democrat Party at that time was the party of the people. Didn’t matter where you were from, didn’t matter your background, how much money you made or didn’t make, your education or anything else. They were the party of the people battling against the elite.

The Democratic Party’s Betrayal of Its Roots

TULSI GABBARD: And so the reason why this story is important is because you look at that legacy in my home state of Hawaii, and then you look at what’s happening in our politics today, where unfortunately the Democrat Party and those in charge of it are now the party of the elite who are way out of touch with the experience of everyday working people across this country.

And it is unfortunate that that party has gotten so far away from its roots — its roots of being a party that celebrated freedom, its roots of being a party that fought for civil liberties — to one now where, with the Biden-Harris administration and the Democrat elite across Washington, are intentionally politicizing and weaponizing the tools of our own government and their friends in big tech and social media and their friends in the mainstream media to take away our freedoms, to take away our right to free speech, to violate our privacy and our civil liberties.

They have become the party of war in every respect. Unfortunately, the Democrat Party has become a party that is undermining the very fabric of our country, of our freedom, of our Constitution and the rule of law, which is why ultimately I left the Democratic Party. And why I am sounding the alarm bells as we head into this very critical election year, about really what’s at stake.

Leaving the Party of the Rich

TUCKER CARLSON: The reason that I know you’re sincere is because you left the Democratic Party at exactly the moment that it solidified its position as the party of the rich.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And there are so many rewards that you can receive if you sign up. So I know a million people who’ve moved in the other direction — Joe Scarborough or Stuart Stevens or Steve Schmidt or all the guys from the Lincoln Project, Bill Kristol.

TULSI GABBARD: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: And they’ve all been rewarded for it a lot because there’s a lot of money to pass around if you do that. And you left at exactly the moment when you could have gotten kind of rich by staying and reading the talking points.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah. When I first got elected in 2012, it was a race that I was not supposed to win. If you listen to anybody who knew anything about politics — and I won that election — zero support from any local or national Democratic Party individuals or the party as a whole. Imagine this: the people’s voices were heard through their votes and they were sick and tired of the pay-to-play corrupt politics and wanted a new direction and a fresh direction of leadership. And so it was a hard-fought election, but I had no idea what was in store when I actually went to Washington.

Arriving in Washington: A Call from Nancy Pelosi

TUCKER CARLSON: So what did you notice? I mean, well, first of all, obvious is very far away. It’s just so far. It is physically.

TULSI GABBARD: It is. And you would think in the age of technology that distance wouldn’t matter so much, but it kind of does. Yeah, it does in some ways. But shortly after my primary election, I got a call from Nancy Pelosi saying, hey, do you want to speak during prime time at the Democratic convention coming up? And I was like, yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: How old were you?

TULSI GABBARD: I was 31.

TUCKER CARLSON: What a trip that must have been.

Tulsi Gabbard’s Early Congressional Career and Opposition to War in Syria

TULSI GABBARD: And I said I would like to speak about veterans. I was serving in the Hawaii National Guard at the time. I’m still serving in the U.S. Army Reserve now. But to me, hey, here’s an opportunity to speak to millions of people across the country about the people who are nearest and dearest to my heart, my brothers and sisters.

And so the whole thing was— it was quite surreal because I didn’t seek it out. I didn’t know how that machine worked. But I found myself getting these phone calls from people within the Democratic Party, like, hey, go and speak at this premier event that most people don’t get invitations to. And a couple of weeks after I was in office, I got a call saying, hey, what would you say if you were asked to serve as vice chair of the DNC? And I was just literally— my response was like, what does a vice chair of the DNC do? I don’t know nothing about this. What do you really want from me? What are you asking of me?

Ultimately said yes because this is an opportunity to be in a position to make some positive change. But these kinds of things kept on happening over the— it was kind of my first year, first couple of years in office.

But— and you’ll appreciate this— one of the major turning points that started to slow down the fanfare and the headlines— I remember there was one at the Democratic convention. I don’t know if it was CNN or MSNBC. Someone was like, oh, I wonder who’s going to play Tulsi Gabbard in a movie. Like all this stuff. I’m like, this is so weird.

But that summer of 2013, my first year in Congress, as you know, one of the main reasons that I ran for Congress was because of the experiences that I’d had on both of my Middle East deployments. Where I experienced the cost of war firsthand, serving in a medical unit. And I wanted to be in a position where I could help influence and impact those foreign policy decisions that were directly impacting my brothers and sisters in uniform. I didn’t realize that my opportunity to be able to do that would happen so quickly.

But it was August of 2013 that President Obama— then President Obama announced that he was going to seek authorization to use military force from Congress to go and drop some bombs on Syria in what would be kind of the first volley of regime change war there. And I was on the Foreign Affairs Committee at the time. August, most members of Congress are at home during recess, and I was home in my district.

And I remember like it was yesterday, pumping gas at the gas station. And this woman came up to me and I’d never met her before. Local lady came. She grabbed my arm and looked at me with this intensity in her eyes, telling me that her son had just come home from Iraq and she had been terrified that he wouldn’t come home. He was finally home with her, and now they wanted to send him back to another war in another country and begged me, please, Tulsi, don’t let them take my son from me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Jeez.

TULSI GABBARD: And as the next couple of days went on, I would bump into more people like that in the supermarket or just around town. Who were absolutely terrified. I went back to Washington, we held all the committee hearings, open hearings, classified briefings, and I went in with an open mind saying, give me all of the information. I want to make sure that I do my due diligence before I take a position or make a decision on this.

And ultimately, Secretary Kerry came in and briefed us the answers to very direct questions that I had, such as what is our objective? What is your objective in wanting to go and start another war in another country? What do you think— how do you think they will respond? What will you do next? What is that second, third, fourth order of effects and consequences that will always happen?

And when I said, what is your objective? I believe it was Secretary Kerry or someone from the State Department who said, “Well, we don’t want to deliver a decapitation. We don’t want it to be a pinprick. We want this to be a punch in the gut and send a message.”

And my question was, okay, so a punch in the gut. What will you do when they respond? And they said, “Well, we don’t think there’ll be a response.”

That’s your plan? You don’t think there will be a response? I said, if somebody came up and punched you in the gut, would you just not respond? If they don’t respond, they’ve got some pretty weaponized, powerful friends. You don’t think they’ll respond? What if they don’t respond to us, but they respond by attacking some of our friends who may be in the region?

All of these different kinds of questions. And it’s like, “Well, we just don’t think they’ll do that. Well, what happens next? Well, we think this will send a strong message.”

And it’s the same kind of political BS talk that means nothing and is so disconnected from the reality of the people on the ground who have to live with those consequences. And it really surprised me, and maybe I shouldn’t have been surprised, but it surprised me that after so many years of looking back at the massive mistakes of Iraq, that they could be so glib and just saying, oh, we’ll just go drop some bombs and send a message, and that’ll be it.

Opposing Obama and Defying the Democratic Establishment

TUCKER CARLSON: They learned nothing.

TULSI GABBARD: They learned nothing. And so I penned an op-ed and published it. And I was certainly the first Democrat, maybe the first member of Congress to come out in opposition to President Obama’s request. And within hours of publishing that op-ed, I got a call from the White House. And essentially what they said was, “How dare you? How dare you go against your president? How dare you go against the president who came from your home state.”

Not a moment of the conversation— there wasn’t much of a conversation, first of all, but they were not interested at all in the reason for my opposition, which I stated pretty clearly in the op-ed, how well thought out this decision was. It was not made haphazardly. They weren’t interested in my experience that I brought, that helped inform my decision of having deployed twice to the Middle East before.

And it told me a lot about them that they were more concerned with— and they cared more about being a good member of the team and go Team Obama and go Team Democrats than they were concerned about the actual consequences of the very serious request that he was saying he would come to Congress with. It sent a strong message to them as well that I wasn’t the person that they thought I was going to be. Someone who could be puppeteered, who could be bullied into just going along with the boss or whatever they had in mind. That was kind of the beginning of their realization that, okay, this one thinks for herself and she’s not afraid to take a stand.

TUCKER CARLSON: So, I mean, at that point, they have two options. They can either try and crush you. You’re a freshman, so it’s a little early for that. And they’ve also ginned up the publicity machine on your behalf. You probably weren’t even aware of this, but most people— most congressmen come to Washington, no one ever hears, no one knows they’re there.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Everyone knew you were there. So they can try and crush you or they can try and suborn you, bribe you. Give you stuff to win you over.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: What did they try?

TULSI GABBARD: It is kind of the public things. I remember, and I think you’ll get a kick out of this, being invited to the White House Correspondents’ Dinner my first year in Congress. I had guys who have been in Congress coming up to me saying, “Gosh, Tulsi, how come you got invited? I’ve been here for 4 terms, 8 years, and I still haven’t gotten invited to that.” And I was like, do you want to go? I really don’t like going to these kind of things. I hate these big kind of parties and social things. You can have my seat.

But it was that kind of thing where, oh, go to this embassy for this fancy party. All this stuff that unfortunately too many members of Congress find very, very appealing and get some kind of— I don’t want to use the word fulfillment because it’s not fulfilling, but I guess it’s what they want. And I didn’t want any of that. So the things that they were putting before me were not attractive to me at all.

Resigning from the DNC and Endorsing Bernie Sanders

And it all kind of definitely came crashing down in 2016. When I took a step to go after Hillary Clinton when she was running for president in the Democratic primary. I was vice chair of the DNC and I saw that the mainstream media, they were all saying she was the most qualified person ever to run for president and listing out all of the titles that she has held. But not a single one of them was questioning or holding her to account for her record on foreign policy or challenging her on what kind of commander-in-chief she had been.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, or the job that she had done in any of those jobs. Like, that was irrelevant.

TULSI GABBARD: Right, and the actual record of what happened. Tell us what happened in Libya actually, for her pushing for the regime change in Libya and what happened as a consequence. There are so many different examples.

TUCKER CARLSON: For sure. So you said that out loud. What happened then?

TULSI GABBARD: I resigned as vice chair of the DNC.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why?

TULSI GABBARD: Because the rules said that as officers of the DNC, you can’t take sides in a partisan primary. The DNC itself under Debbie Wasserman Schultz clearly was in every way tilting the scales for Hillary Clinton. But I resigned as vice chair of the DNC and endorsed Bernie Sanders around this single issue of foreign policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

TULSI GABBARD: Specifically because while I disagreed with Bernie on a bunch of things, he was certainly more of a non-interventionist than the warmonger that Hillary Clinton is. And I knew that would provide me with a platform to have a voice and actually speak the truth to the American people about her record and how dangerous she would be if she were ever our president. And how personal this was for me because the cost is real.

TUCKER CARLSON: So what happened when you did that?

TULSI GABBARD: I announced it on Meet the Press on a Sunday morning. Didn’t tell anybody I was doing it. No one before I went and made that announcement on that show. Monday morning, came back to work and a lot of my Democrat colleagues were basically drafting their political eulogies for me. Just like, “You’re done, you’re done, Tulsi. Hillary will be president. You will not get a single dime for your district. Anything that your community needs for your district— not for your campaign, for me— for my district. They’ve never given me anything for any of my campaigns. And I’m totally fine with that, but my district and my constituency in Hawaii would be punished for doing what I did.”

I also learned that there is an actual list of people who are blacklisted, I suppose. And I was told that it would take years and years and years to ever work my way off that list. I was chuckling at all of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: They said this out loud. They thought this. They said it out loud.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah. These were many conversations while walking to and from votes with different people who were pulling me aside and offering their condolences, their political condolences to me, because I had made a decision that they said would be equal to the death of my political future.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s crazy.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah. MSNBC, I remember doing an interview. I think it was one of the first debates that Bernie and Hillary had in Florida, I think it was. And an MSNBC anchor said, “Aren’t you afraid of the Clintons and what they’ll do?” And I said, no, I’m not afraid. But I thought it was quite curious that he felt compelled to ask that question with concern in his voice.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, well, people who’ve been around them knew.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you still, though, were in the party. When did it become clear, like, I can’t represent this party anymore?

Leaving the Democratic Party

TULSI GABBARD: It was in the fall of 2022. There were a lot of critical midterm elections happening that year, increasingly over time. And it wasn’t one specific thing that caused me to make this decision, but it was increasingly over time. A couple of things. Obviously, the radical change that the Democratic Party leadership went through in really truly becoming a woke, warmongering party of the elite. But also, it was a recognition that I had done all I could to try to change the party from within. Tried as vice chair of the DNC. I tried as a candidate running for president in 2020 in the Democratic primary. And the things that I was talking about, about bringing the party back to its roots, bringing the party back to being the party of the people and the party of freedom, the party of peace and security, it not only fell on deaf ears, I was booed by the party elite for having the audacity to push for these sorts of things.

Accused of Being a Russian Asset

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, you’re— this is a very restrained version of what I saw. They didn’t just boo you. They accused you of being an agent for a foreign power and a disloyal American and an evil person.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I saw that. It’s true.

TULSI GABBARD: And it’s such a crazy, crazy accusation to make. Obviously completely baseless. And the media never asked Hillary Clinton for evidence of this traitorous, treasonous act that she’s accusing me of as a sitting member of Congress and as a soldier wearing our country’s uniform.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, an officer, right?

TULSI GABBARD: Yes. And here’s the problem is, is that it works. And that’s why they continue even now, how many years later, they continue to fall back on the Russia, Russia playbook. It’s a Russian asset. They’ve used this against you. They’ve used this against Donald Trump, and they continue to come back to this.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I’m not an officer in the United States Army and you are. So it’s a little weird to say— I mean, Hillary Clinton, I will never forget it, accused you of being a disloyal person. That’s a crime under the military code.

TULSI GABBARD: I think it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, it is.

TULSI GABBARD: And one that would not only be grounds for them to remove my security clearance, but it would be grounds for discharge, and it would be grounds for enforcement under the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. If you’re actually working for a foreign power as a military officer, you can be executed for it. So it’s not a small thing to say. So rather than just saying, Tulsi Gabbard’s an idiot or I disagree with her or whatever, they went right to that. The heaviest thing you could ever say about somebody, about an American. That was all foreign policy related, right?

TULSI GABBARD: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s the way it felt to me.

The Permanent Washington Elite

TULSI GABBARD: It was foreign policy related, and it was related to the fact that I had the audacity to go against them, to challenge the elite of the Democratic Party, which is Hillary Clinton and it’s Barack Obama and it’s the people who surround them in the military-industrial complex, in the media-industrial complex, those who are pushing. And it’s not limited to the Democratic Party, of course. Mitt Romney also called me a treasonous person who is a Russian asset or something along those lines. So they are all part of this permanent Washington elite who cannot allow for those who challenge them to go unscathed. Because their whole existence is based around that. It’s based around power and where they get their power from.

TUCKER CARLSON: And the main source of power obviously is the exercise of military force.

TULSI GABBARD: Yes, it’s the most powerful thing. We are the most powerful military in the world. And that’s what’s so offensive about them and what they’re advocating for. They treat our military— and actually, I don’t want to say they forget because they’re not stupid. They really don’t care about the men and women who make up our military and who live and die by the consequences of their actions, whether they’re holding office or not. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are not in office right now, but they still continue to wield immense power in influencing the decisions that are being made.

Who Is Really Running the Government?

TUCKER CARLSON: So can I just sort of sidebar, but I think relevant, interesting. Are you answering the question that everyone watching has, which is who is running the government at this point? It’s obviously not Joe Biden. You think Hillary?

TULSI GABBARD: It’s not a leap of imagination to know that that’s true when you look at the people who are in Joe Biden’s administration. They are the people who were the right hands for the Obama administration, for President Obama, and for Hillary Clinton. When Hillary Clinton said herself the other day, she said, “Oh yeah, I talk to the White House every day.” So it is no shock or surprise who the influences are behind the policies that are coming out of this White House that many people say is the most radical and woke White House that our country has ever seen.

Refusing to Compromise Principles

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, well, there’s no question about it. But as this was happening to you, I mean, I’m sure you don’t want to go to the White House Correspondents’ Dinner. Good for you. Tiresome. But on the other hand, it is a lot easier and much more pleasant to be loved than it is to be hated. I think it’s just true. And so as you became really hated by the leadership of the Democratic Party and they weren’t hiding it at all, did you ever think, maybe it’s just easier to kind of pretend bombing Syria is a good idea? Did you ever question your decision to say no?

TULSI GABBARD: No, I knew that that would be true. I knew that there was certainly an easier path to take. Yeah, I think it was kind of laid out for me when I first got there. But I never second-guessed my decision, my decisions about these different positions that I took. I never regretted them. Never. Not to this day. And I never will, because I didn’t go to Washington to be loved by the people who live and exist and thrive in that bubble.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, sure, I get it. And their love is not worth having. No, totally agree. But their money’s good.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

Not Cashing In

TUCKER CARLSON: And I think you’re the only famous person I’ve ever met who flies coach. And you’re certainly the only very, very well-known member of Congress and former presidential candidate I’ve ever met in my entire life who didn’t cash in personally. And I know that is factually true.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So do you ever think, maybe I don’t know, it’s easier to fly first class? Maybe I should have just—

TULSI GABBARD: It’s not worth it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

TULSI GABBARD: It’s not worth it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think it’s weird that we never talk about the money involved? Like, I just know that from living there.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And from knowing a lot of well-known people who’ve become famous in politics.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And there’s not one of them, not one, not literally not one on either side who’s not in the top 1% for income. But you’re not.

TULSI GABBARD: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why doesn’t anyone ever say that?

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah, because it is the assumed norm. It’s not the exception. What they’re doing is the norm. So why would they talk about it? There’s nothing to talk about because they assume that every member of Congress, whether you’re a Democrat or Republican, the day you walk out, you get your payday.

TUCKER CARLSON: What did you get when you walked out?

TULSI GABBARD: Nothing. Nothing. I had to come up with a plan of, all right, we got to figure out how we’re going to pay the bills.

TUCKER CARLSON: How much money had you amassed during your time?

TULSI GABBARD: Oh, every financial advisor would probably be very disappointed because my husband and I were— I had like, okay, we got a couple of months. We got a couple of months that we can make it through. We got to come up with a plan otherwise before you’d have to sell your weekend house or— sure, the imaginary weekend house. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Were you able to buy a big house when you’re in Congress?

TULSI GABBARD: No. No, no, we had— we bought a house. I don’t think you ever came to our house there. But here’s— I’ll give you a little hint where— and we shared it with my sister and her husband. But we did buy a house in a neighborhood that was affordable in D.C. And we found out the first week that we were there that we tried to order takeout from someone.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, in D.C.? Oh, you lived in the hood.

TULSI GABBARD: I knew that. And as soon as they were like, okay, put the order in and everything else. And as soon as I gave them the address, they’re like, “Oh no, we don’t deliver to that neighborhood. We won’t cross that bridge. We won’t cross the Anacostia Bridge to get to your house.”

TUCKER CARLSON: You live on what we call the other side of the river.

Not Fitting In in Washington

TULSI GABBARD: Literally. Anyway, there was a question that a reporter asked me a couple of years— I forget, 2 or 3 years after I’d been in Congress. They’re like, “Okay, you’ve been here a while now. Do you feel like you fit in?” And it was a surprising question to me. And I said, “No, I don’t ever want to fit in here. This is not my home. I’m grateful to get out of here as quickly as possible, as soon as votes are done, as often as possible, get back to my community in Hawaii or get out and visit other communities in the country and remain very closely connected to the people who I am there to serve.” And as you know, we’ve talked about this before. There are far too many politicians from both parties who spend their time at social hours and happy hours with lobbyists than they do actually spend time at home.

Congressional Stock Trading

TUCKER CARLSON: Does anyone ever— oh, that’s certainly true. And they have sad, sad personal lives, almost not all, but most, as you know. But I’m always amazed by the financial disclosures. And again, since this is the last question, but since no one else talks about it, I will. And you see these members of Congress who are, in some cases they’re clever, maybe even smart. Some cases are just pretty ordinary, actually. And they’re so rich relative to the mean.

TULSI GABBARD: Oh, yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Does anyone— and I have no idea how they made all that money. I mean, no clue at all how Nancy Pelosi is just so rich or how her stock picks are like way better than Warren Buffett’s. Like, how does that happen? But does anyone ever talk about that internally, like on the Hill?

TULSI GABBARD: No, because most of them benefit from it. I love these accounts on X and on Instagram that pop up now that are actually tracking— yeah, I don’t know how they do it. I really don’t know how they figure it out, but they are tracking what she’s buying and what other members of Congress are buying.

TUCKER CARLSON: Nancy Pelosi’s stock tracker.

TULSI GABBARD: Oh, yeah, that’s definitely one of them. It’s like they’re like, “Hey, everybody.” It is incredible to see. And when you watch that, and I’m so glad for the transparency that they’re providing to people in real time almost. But it’s no wonder why she and others, Democrats and Republicans, who could very easily pass the legislation that says no member of Congress or the Senate or their spouse or their senior staff should be allowed to trade in stocks, period, full stop. It’s such an obvious way to stop even the perception. If you want to claim innocence or whatever, there should be no perception that our elected leaders are profiting off of the knowledge that they have as policymakers that directly impact industry and businesses. That’s a no-brainer to me. I introduced legislation when I was in Congress to do that. Many people have since then. There’s been a lot of talk and conversation. Why hasn’t it gone anywhere? That’s why. Because they profit off it. So of course they don’t want to talk about it.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s just an easy one. It is.

The Corruption of Power and the Constitution

TULSI GABBARD: And frankly, why do they need to be forced? When I’m not some kind of stock trader, but when I was 23 and 24, I had $5,000 in my savings account. I was like, okay, cool, let me learn a little bit about stocks. I put some money in some stocks and I don’t remember how they did, but I knew immediately, like going into Congress, perception is reality.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

TULSI GABBARD: And so it doesn’t matter, well, I’ve had this stock for 15 years or whatever. It doesn’t even matter what it is. I got rid of — I did not participate in anything related to stocks or stock trading or buying or selling or anything for the entire time that I was in Congress. And it’s not some like, oh, look at me, I’m so great. It’s just common sense that we have people in great positions of power. Why should they be forced to do something with the passage of a law? Why don’t they just do the right thing and say, you know what, we get that even an innocent thing could be perceived as insider trading. We’re just not going to go there.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because it’s too lucrative to give up.

TULSI GABBARD: And they know they can get away with it.

How the Democratic Party Changed

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s interesting. You have explained, and thank you, the history of Hawaii, which I think is directly relevant to the choices that you’ve made. And as far as I know, everything said is true. And so the party has changed a lot in just the brief time that you were a member of it. A lot, dramatically unrecognizable, but also in the process of going through all these experiences and being attacked by people who thought — who said they were your allies. You’ve got to change. Yeah, I’ve changed dramatically in 20 years just through — we all do if we’re honest. So how have you changed? Like, what perceptions of yours are different from what they were 5 years ago?

TULSI GABBARD: It is — it is that — the last 5 years, it became more and more clear to me how many people, especially in the Democratic Party in Washington specifically, how little they think of the Constitution.

And I think the last 5 years especially are pretty pivotal because you look at what happened with COVID, for example, as a starting point of how people both at the federal level, at the state level, county level, in a lot of places, when given just a little bit of power, man, they took advantage of that and continued to abuse that power in a way that just didn’t make sense. It didn’t make sense.

When they were there like, okay, well, for public safety, everybody’s got to stay indoors and you can’t go to church and you can’t even worship out like in Hawaii on the beach. You can’t have like an outdoor service. But if you’re going to go and do a Black Lives Matter march, that actually rises above any public health and safety concerns that we talked about. And so that’s okay.

The politically motivated decisions that were being made in the midst of what they were calling this, the greatest health epidemic of our time, I think exposed pretty deeply to a lot of people that it was really all just about power and how little they were concerned about things like freedom and civil liberties and the ability for us to make our own choices for ourselves.

And then it just continued to escalate more and more with the Biden-Harris administration in how they were undermining the rule of law, continuing to this day, and how willing they were to both directly and indirectly censor, blacklist, and smear everyday Americans across the country if you happened to challenge them, whether it be on COVID or on things like — and this was, I think, the thing that caused Mitt Romney to call me a treasonous liar — saying, hey, there are US-funded, DOD-funded bio labs in Ukraine that should be secured because there’s a war going on over there. And the last thing we or the world needs is anything going on in those bio labs being unleashed in a way that could pose a threat to people. That was seen as —

The Bio Labs Controversy and Mitt Romney

TUCKER CARLSON: But I should just say you weren’t guessing. You got that — it was confirmed in any case in a public exchange in the Senate between Marco Rubio of Florida, the sitting Republican senator, and Victoria Nuland, the undersecretary of state, who volunteered it on camera.

TULSI GABBARD: Yes. And it was on the DOD website talking about their long history of funding these bio labs, not only in Ukraine but in many other countries because they’re around the world outside U.S.

TUCKER CARLSON: Law, right? So they can — and it’s bioweapons research, obviously. But you were just — I don’t even think you said that. You just said basically what the undersecretary of state said in the Senate, right? And then you have a creature like Mitt Romney calling you a traitor to your country. So what do you think of him? Like, what is that? Why would he be so committed to a lie that he’d be willing to try to destroy your character?

TULSI GABBARD: He is part of that neocon, neoliberal establishment in Washington that poses a direct threat to our republic, to our democracy, and to our freedom. And that really is at the heart of why I chose to leave the Democratic Party, seeing people — and yep, got it. He’s a Republican, but he took the same position as Hillary Clinton and many other Democrats who don’t care about our country. That’s what it comes down to. They don’t care about our country.

I challenged Mitt Romney. I sent him a legal letter challenging him on his accusation for the very reason that we talked about. As a uniformed officer serving in the United States Army, his accusation as a U.S. senator is a crime punishable by death. So if you’re going to make that accusation, as he did on what was then known as Twitter, you better frickin’ back it up.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is it a little — if you take three steps back, it’s like obviously Mitt Romney is emotionally a child. He’s very much a subgenius. He’s not a genius. Let’s just put it that way. And he’s made hundreds of millions of dollars in our economy. Like, what does that tell you about our economy? How could a guy like that get so unbelievably rich? Like, there’s something systemically wrong, right?

The Corporate-Industrial Complex

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a huge — and I think this will be the topic of the next book that I’ll write — is, as we talk about the military-industrial complex, there is a corporate-industrial complex for sure that exists as well. I’m all about capitalism. But when you look at the monopolies —

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, that’s not capitalism.

TULSI GABBARD: That’s not capitalism at all. You look at how many small businesses are suffering in this country because of overregulation by government. And because they can’t afford to pay millions, tens of millions of dollars to have lobbyists going and scratching the back of politicians so that they can create the loopholes that allow their business to thrive at the cost of the mass majority of the small businesses in our country and the elimination of competitiveness. True competition, which capitalism is all about, true competition in our country. And that’s how when you look at people like Mitt Romney and you see how they have done so well. That’s the reason why he’s just so disgraceful.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s hard to believe he’s real, but he is. So how did he respond when you said —

TULSI GABBARD: He didn’t. His silence was —

TUCKER CARLSON: He didn’t respond at all?

TULSI GABBARD: Did not respond at all. Not to my lawyer and not on Twitter and not in any way, shape or form. Which didn’t surprise me.

Service, Sacrifice, and Being Called a Traitor

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so dishonorable.

TULSI GABBARD: It is. It is. I am so grateful and really, truly feel like it is a privilege to be able to serve our country in uniform. April makes 21 years for me. I’m grateful to serve as a battalion commander currently, where I have the opportunity to work with incredible Americans who come from all over the country and who deeply love our country.

It’s not a small sacrifice to make, both for those who are serving as active duty service members as well as those who serve in the reserve component. There’s a reason why we do it, and it stems from a deep love for our country. And to have a guy like that make such an accusation, yeah, it hits close to home.

Not only for me, but the real issue with that and why I challenged him on it is because when people like Mitt Romney make that kind of accusation, people like Hillary Clinton call me a traitor and a Russian asset or a puppet of Putin — this is not about me. It’s about the message that they’re sending to every serviceman and woman in this country. And every American that if you dare to challenge us, we will come. We will come at you.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s always the least American people who make the claim that you’re not American enough. Yeah. So, but do you ever think — again, this is demonstrable. If anyone who’s made it to this point in the conversation can decide, you know, do I agree or disagree with Tulsi Gabbard? That’s fine. But I don’t think any fair person could say you’re in this for the money.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Or the accolades, just the opposite. You’re continuing to get deployed and you’re not making any money doing that. You’re doing it anyway. It’s quite a time commitment. Do you ever think like, maybe politics is not the business for me because I’m just — I believe what I believe and I’m kind of never going to sell it out. Maybe you’re not transactional enough for that. I’m serious.

Politics as a Career vs. a Calling

TULSI GABBARD: I have never thought of politics as a career.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

TULSI GABBARD: At all, ever. And so the different times in my life where I have held public office, it’s never been, well, this is what I’m going to do for the next few decades and then I’ll retire. And it’s why I have left at different times. I did not run for reelection when I was serving in the statehouse because I decided to volunteer and deploy to Iraq with my brothers and sisters in the Hawaii National Guard at the time. I did not run for Congress again in reelection in 2020 because I felt like the climate of the House of Representatives had gotten to that point where I felt like I had maximized the impact that I could make there, and I could be of more influence at that time on the outside, kind of holding their feet to the fire and being able to share exactly what I am now with the American people, the truth about what’s going on in Washington and the truth about these politicians who claim to care for you but show through their actions that they don’t, more and more brazenly.

And this is really — you asked the question about what happened over the last 5 years and how was the change? The change really has come from a much deeper appreciation, frankly, of our Constitution and the role that our leaders must have in truly upholding the Constitution. It’s obviously something I’ve sworn oath to twice in my life, and I care very deeply for.

To see how those in power were so brazenly and continue to so brazenly abuse their power and weaponize our law enforcement, the national security state, all of these different tools that are at their disposal, increasingly pushing us toward a place where our country is being led by a tyrannical government.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

TULSI GABBARD: The problem is very real. It’s a very real danger that I frankly couldn’t — 10 years ago, maybe even less than that, I don’t think I would have said that.

The Constitution and the Limits of Power

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I don’t think most people would have said it at all because it seemed like just the normal disagreements between people with the same goal, which is to help the country. That’s not the case. Obviously, the problem with the Constitution, though, is that the whole document basically is just limits on the power and authority of politicians. That’s the whole purpose of it. Here’s what you can’t do to the population. But it’s in the hands of politicians to uphold.

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you sort of — I mean, maybe that’s like the core problem with our government. Our system of government is they have to restrain their own power. Like, what if they’re like, well, we don’t care about the Constitution? Like, old white guys wrote it and they were racist and it’s now invalid.

TULSI GABBARD: And that’s exactly where the leaders of today’s Democratic Party are. That is their mindset.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you do about that?

TULSI GABBARD: That’s where going and actually looking again at our founding documents, looking at the Declaration of Independence, looking at the Federalist Papers.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

The Future of America and the Role of Faith

TULSI GABBARD: Where we are reminded over and over and over again about how our nation’s founders continued to say it’s we the people, that our government does not exist without the consent of the governed. And this is the message I’m carrying everywhere across the country, is that if you are not happy with the direction that our country is headed— and I think that most people are not happy with it— this changes only when we take action. Only when we take action.

There’s no knight in shining armor that’s coming to save the country. Our founders specifically built our country on the foundation of We the People taking ownership and responsibility for the kind of leadership that we want and the kind of future that we want. And right now, I am sounding the alarm and encouraging everyone to sound the alarm.

The name of my book is For Love of Country: Leave the Democrat Party Behind, specifically and very directly pointing to those who pose the greatest threat to our democracy, to our freedom, to our security and our ability to live in peace right now.

And my concern, my grave concern is that in this next election, if President Biden or Harris or whoever they may put up, if it’s not President Biden, if they are allowed to remain in power, then we will get to a place where the country that I love, that you love, that so many of us love and appreciate will become unrecognizable and to a place where the freedoms that we are already starting to lose, that we won’t be able to get them back.

Political Persecution and the Threat to American Citizens

TUCKER CARLSON: I know a lot of people have been to jail in the last 3 and a half years, like a lot. And I’ve interviewed a lot, just interviewed one today, and they’ve gone to jail for their political views and for their willingness to challenge the people in power. If Biden or, if Clinton and Obama get reelected using Biden as a cutout and Kamala Harris, are you worried that, I mean, we’re talking about actual Americans, American citizens going to jail. We’re going to see a lot more of that.

TULSI GABBARD: It feels like to me we are already seeing more of that. And I have no doubt that that will only escalate dramatically because every time, they could win the election by theoretically one vote and they will run around the country and say, “Well, the American people have given us a mandate to continue the great work we are doing for this country.” Well, the great work that they see they are doing for this country is actually for themselves. And they are completely undermining the fabric that makes this country what it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s for sure. But are you worried? I mean, you’re in this interesting position because they’ve always disliked Trump for a long time, disliked me for a long time. They thought they could use you. They thought they loved you. And so they hate you with a very intense and very specific kind of hate. And you’ve given them the finger at every turn. Like, do you ever think to yourself—

TULSI GABBARD: I wouldn’t be surprised. Yeah, I wouldn’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why wouldn’t they indict you for being a Russian agent or whatever?

TULSI GABBARD: As we are seeing now, they are completely willing to use the Department of Justice and law enforcement to serve their own political means. So, no, it wouldn’t surprise me.

TUCKER CARLSON: At all.

TULSI GABBARD: They are showing that even without evidence, without basis, without anything to back up their claims— and this is what they’ve been doing against Trump since he first ran for office in 2016, launching years-long investigations into him. This whole Russia collusion thing, things that were proven through those investigations— there was nothing there. And there’s been no accountability for them whatsoever.

Which goes back to just emphasizing how critical it is. If you are a person who cares about freedom, who cares about our country, who cares about being able to make your own decisions as parents about what kind of education you want for your child, if you care about having a safe community for your child to live in, if you care about having a secure country with borders, the Democratic Party is not the answer. It is not the answer. They are, in fact, the problem.

Tulsi Gabbard as a Potential VP Choice

TUCKER CARLSON: So you’ve been in a lot of different news stories, talked about as a potential VP choice for Trump. I have no idea if that’s going to happen or not. Probably unknowable. Are you open to that? If you don’t do that, what else are you open to? What’s your plan?

TULSI GABBARD: Yeah, I would be honored. I’d be honored to serve our country in that way or in other ways and to be in a position to help President Trump, if he is reelected, to actually address these challenges, to help execute those policies that will bring back a secure border, that will breathe new life into our economy and start to get this radical inflation out of control.

Which on that note, I was in a conversation the other day with two different groups of people. One was with a very, very wealthy couple. And they were saying, “Well, gosh, the economy’s not actually that bad. The stock market’s doing all right. It’s not really as bad as a lot of people are saying it is.” And then the next conversation was with people who are not part of that wealthy class who were talking about a loaf of bread being 3 times more expensive today than it was 6 months ago or a year ago. Basic necessities, electricity, food, medicine, all of the things that people need just to live and to try to live in a healthy way are far more expensive, but they’re not making a whole lot more. The dollar is not going nearly as far as it needs to in order to be able to afford this inflation.

And so I just mentioned that because this disconnect still continues between the elite in Washington and the reality that they live in versus the reality that the rest of us live in, in this country. And President Trump recognizes that. I’d love to be in a position to help secure our country and to get us off this path towards World War III and nuclear war that the Democrat elite and President Biden’s policies have us on right now.

Where Do Our Rights Come From?

TUCKER CARLSON: So my last question. A lot has been written about you and a lot has been written about your spiritual life. I don’t know if any of it’s accurate or not. Most politicians don’t have a spiritual life. So I think it spooks our media that you clearly do. You can feel it. But I want to ask you a specific question. So there was a fairly famous exchange on MSNBC a week or two ago with a reporter from Politico who was attacking Christians. And that reporter said, “The crazy thing about Christians is they think their rights come from God.”

TULSI GABBARD: Hmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: When, of course, the implication is they really are granted by Joe Biden. Like, what? Where do you think our rights come from?

TULSI GABBARD: Our rights come from God. I saw that clip and I laughed when I saw it. And then I was concerned because I saw the people sitting around the table in one of those panels and they all had serious looks on their faces as they were nodding along with this woman saying this. As though— first of all, whatever her spiritual beliefs are or the lack thereof, that’s her business. But have you read the Declaration of Independence ever? Certainly not recently, because again, whatever your own personal thoughts may be, the Declaration of Independence is not— they don’t mince words. Our God-given rights are inalienable and they do come from our Creator.

And again, recognizing that as the basis for our founding documents is a very powerful message to every person in politics or in power that you don’t get to try to take away those rights. God gives us those rights. Only God can take them away.

And this God complex that so many of our politicians have is at the heart of the problem. They’re so eager to put themselves in a position of power where they believe that they have the power to say what is true and what is not true, that something as undeniable as the fact that I am a woman and you’re a man is something that they have now declared to be a fungible label. I suppose that you can just say, “I believe I’m a man, so I’m a man, and let it be so.”

This would be laughable if the consequences weren’t so dangerous, to have people in power who don’t recognize that our rights and freedoms come from God. And you follow that track and where does it lead— they really do believe that they are God or should be God and that they are self-appointing themselves to be in that position of authority. And they have a lot of tools at their disposal to try to enforce that.

And that is what is at the heart of the danger that we face as a country right now. This is something that transcends party affiliation. It transcends how you may like or dislike certain candidates. This is the fact, and it’s the reality that we have to confront ourselves with if we care about peace, if we care about freedom, if we care about security, if we care about our country and our future. The choice is very clear in this election and what we must do in leaving the Democrat Party behind.

TUCKER CARLSON: Tulsi Gabbard, I don’t know what’s next for you. I don’t know what’s next for any of us, actually. But I hope you will keep talking.

TULSI GABBARD: I will. Thank you for having me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thank you.

TULSI GABBARD: It’s so good to see you.

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