FULL TRANSCRIPT: Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s Interview To Tucker Carlson

Some others in STRATCOM, I think Buchanan is his name, representative of STRATCOM, he said something which allows for an eventuality of exchange of limited nuclear strikes.

And this kind of threats are really worrying, because if they are following the logic, which some Westerners have been pronouncing lately, that, well, don’t believe that Russia has red lines, they announced their red lines, these red lines are being moved again and again and again, this is a very serious mistake. That’s what I would like to say in response to this question. It is not us who started the war, Putin repeatedly said that we started the operation in order to end the war, which Kiev regime was conducting against its own people in the parts of Donbass.

And just in his latest statement, the President clearly indicated that we are ready for any eventuality, but we strongly prefer peaceful solution through negotiations on the basis of respecting legitimate security interest of Russia, and on the basis of respecting the people who live in Ukraine, who still live in Ukraine being Russians, and their basic human rights, language rights, religious rights have been exterminated by series of legislation passed by the Ukrainian Parliament, and they started long before this special military operation.

Violations of Russian Rights in Ukraine

SERGEY LAVROV: Since 2017, legislation was passed prohibiting Russian education in Russian, prohibiting Russian media operating in Ukraine, then prohibiting Ukrainian media working in Russian language, and the latest, of course there were also steps to cancel any cultural events in Russian, Russian books were thrown out of libraries and exterminated, and the latest was the law prohibiting canonic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

While, and you know it’s very interesting when people in the West say we want this conflict to be resolved on the basis of the UN Charter and respect for territorial integrity of Ukraine, Russia must withdraw. The Secretary General of the United Nations says similar things. Recently, his representative repeated that the conflict must be resolved on the basis of international law, UN Charter, General Assembly resolutions, while respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine.

It’s a misnomer, because if you want to respect the United Nations Charter, you have to respect it in its entirety, and the United Nations Charter, among other things, says that all countries must respect equality of states and right of people for self-determination. And they also mentioned the United Nations General Assembly resolutions, and this is clear that what they mean is the series of resolutions which they passed after the beginning of the special military operation, and which demand condemnation of Russia, Russia get out of Ukraine territory in 1991 borders.

But there are other United Nations General Assembly resolutions which were not voted, but which were consensual, and among them is a declaration on principles of relations between states on the basis of the Charter. And it clearly says, by consensus, everybody must respect territorial integrity of states, whose governments respect the right of people for self-determination, and because of that, represent the entire population living on a given territory.

To argue that the people who came to power through military coup d’etat in February 2014 represented Crimeans, or the citizens of Eastern and Southern Ukraine, is absolutely useless. It is obvious that Crimeans rejected the coup, they said, leave us alone, we don’t want to have anything with you, so did Donbass, Crimeans held referendum, and they rejoined Russia, Donbass was declared by the Putschists who came to power a terrorist group, they were shelled, attacked by artillery, the war started, which was stopped in February 2015, and the Minsk agreements were signed.

And we were very sincerely interested in closing this drama, by seeing Minsk agreements implemented fully, it was sabotaged by the government, which was established after the coup d’etat in Ukraine. There was a demand that they enter into a direct dialogue with the people who did not accept the coup. There was a demand that they promote economic relations with that part of Ukraine, and so on and so forth, none of this was done — the people in Kiev were saying we would never talk to them directly. And this is in spite of the fact that the demand to talk to them directly was endorsed by the Security Council, and they said they are terrorists, we would be fighting them, and they would be dying in cellars, because we are stronger.

The 2014 Coup and Its Aftermath

SERGEY LAVROV: Had the coup in February 2014, had it not happened, and had the deal which was reached the day before, between the then president and the opposition implemented, Ukraine would have stayed one piece by now, with Crimea in it. It’s absolutely clear, they did not deliver on the deal, instead they staged the coup.

The deal by the way, provided for creation of a government of national unity in February 2014, and holding early elections, which the then president would have lost, everybody knew that, but they were impatient. And they took the government buildings next morning, they went to this Maidan Square, and announced that they created the government of the winners, compared the government of national unity to prepare for elections, and the government of the winners. How can the people whom they, in their view, defeated, how can they pretend that they respect the authorities in Kyiv?

You know, the right for self-determination is the international legal basis for decolonization process, which took place in Africa, on the basis of this charter principle, right for self-determination. The people in the colonies, they never treated the colonial powers, colonial masters, as somebody who represent them, as somebody whom they want to see in the structures which govern those lands. By the same token, the people in the east and south of Ukraine, people in Donbass and Novorossiya, they don’t consider the Zelensky regime as somebody, as something which represents their interests. How can they, when their culture, their language, their traditions, their religion, all this was prohibited.

And the last point is that, if we speak about the UN Charter, resolutions, international law, the very first article of the UN Charter, which the West never, never recalls in the Ukrainian context, says, respect human rights of everybody, irrespective of race, gender, language or religion. Take any conflict, the United States, UK, Brussels, they would interfere saying, oh, human rights have been grossly violated, we must restore the human rights in such and such territory. On Ukraine, never, ever, they mumbled the words human rights, seeing these human rights for the Russian and Russian-speaking population being totally exterminated by law.

So, when people say, let’s resolve the conflict on the basis of the Charter, yes, but don’t forget that the Charter is not only about territorial integrity, and territorial integrity must be respected only if the governments are legitimate, and if they respect the rights of their own people.

The Message Behind Russia’s New Hypersonic Weapons

TUCKER CARLSON: I want to go back to what you said a moment ago about the introduction or the unveiling of the hypersonic weapons system, that you said was a signal to the West. What signal exactly? I think many Americans are not even aware that this happened. What message were you sending by showing it to the world?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, the message is that you, I mean you, the United States, and the allies of the United States, who also provide this long-range weapons to the Kiev regime, they must understand that we would be ready to use any means not to allow them to succeed in what they call strategic defeat of Russia. They fight for keeping their hegemony over the world, on any country, any region, any continent. We fight for our legitimate security interests. They say, for example, 1991 borders.

Lindsey Graham, who visited some time ago Zelensky for another talk, he bluntly, in presence of Zelensky, I think, said that “Ukraine is very rich with rare earth metals, and we cannot leave this richness to the Russians, we must take it.” We fight, so they fight for the regime which is ready to sell or to give to the West all the natural and human resources. We fight for the people who have been living on these lands, whose ancestors were actually developing those lands, building cities, building factories for centuries and centuries. We care about people, not about natural resources, which somebody in the United States would like to keep, and to have Ukrainians just as servants sitting on these natural resources.

So the message which we wanted to sell by testing in real action this hypersonic system is that we will be ready to do anything to defend our legitimate interests. We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take nuclear character. Our military doctrine says that the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war. And it was us, by the way, who initiated in January 2022 the message, the joint statement, by the leaders of the five permanent members of the Security Council, saying that we will do anything to avoid confrontation between us, acknowledging and respecting each other’s security interests and concerns.

This was our initiative. And the security interests of Russia were totally ignored when they rejected, about the same time, when they rejected the proposal to conclude a treaty on security guarantees for Russia, for Ukraine, in the context of coexistence, and in the context when Ukraine would not be ever a member of NATO or any other military bloc. These security interests of Russia were presented to the rest of NATO and to the United States in December 2021. We discussed them several times, including during my meeting with Tony Blinken in Geneva in January, late January 2022, and this was rejected.

So we would certainly like to avoid any misunderstanding, and since the people, some people in Washington and some people in London, in Brussels, seem to be not very capable to understand, we will send additional messages if they don’t draw necessary conclusions.

TUCKER CARLSON: The fact that we’re having a conversation about a potential nuclear exchange and it’s real is remarkable, not something I thought I’d ever see, and it raises the question, how much back-channel dialogue is there between Russia and the United States? Has there been for the last two and a half years? Is there any conversation ongoing?

Limited Back-Channel Dialogue

SERGEY LAVROV: There are several channels, but mostly on exchange of people who serve terms in Russia and in the United States. There were several swaps. There are also channels which are not advertised or publicized, but basically the Americans send through these channels the same message which they send publicly. You have to stop.

You have to accept the way which will be based on the Ukrainian needs and Ukrainian position. They support this absolutely pointless peace formula by Zelensky, which was additioned recently by the victory plan. They held several series of meetings, Copenhagen format, Burgenstock, what have you, and they brag that next year, first half of next year, they will convene another conference and they will graciously invite Russia that time, and then Russia would be presented an ultimatum. All this is seriously repeated through various confidential channels.

Now we hear something different, including Zelensky’s statements that we can stop now and the line of engagement, line of contact, the Ukrainian government will be admitted to NATO, but NATO guarantees at this stage would cover only the territory controlled by the government and the rest would be subject to negotiations, but the end result of these negotiations must be total withdrawal of Russia from Russian soil, basically. Leaving Russian people to the nazist regime, which exterminated all the rights of the Russian and Russian-speaking citizens of their own country.

Risks of Miscalculation Leading to Nuclear War

TUCKER CARLSON: If I could just go back to the question of nuclear change, so there is no mechanism by which the leaders of Russia and the United States can speak to each other to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that could kill hundreds of millions of people?

SERGEY LAVROV: No, no, we have this channel, which is automatically engaged when ballistic missile launch is taking place. As regards this Oreshnik hypersonic ballistic missile, mid-range ballistic missile, 30 minutes in advance this system sent the message to the United States and they knew that this was the case and that they don’t mistake it for anything bigger and real dangerous.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think the system sounds very dangerous.

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, it was a test launch, you know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Oh, you’re speaking of the test, okay. But I just wonder how worried you are that considering there doesn’t seem to be a lot of conversation between the two countries, both sides are speaking about exterminating the other’s populations, that this could somehow get out of control in a very short period and no one could stop it. It seems incredibly reckless.

SERGEY LAVROV: No, we are not talking about exterminating anybody’s population. We did not start this war. We have been for years and years and years sending warnings that pushing NATO closer and closer to our borders is going to create a problem. 2007 Putin started to explain, you know, to the people who seem to be overtaken by the end of history and being dominant, no challenge and so on and so forth.

The 2014 Coup and American Involvement

SERGEY LAVROV: And, of course, when the coup took place, the Americans did not hide that they were behind it. There is a conversation between Victoria Nuland and the then American Ambassador in Kyiv and they discuss personalities to be included in the new government after the coup. The figure of 5 billion bucks spent on Ukraine after independence was mentioned as the guarantee that everything would be like the Americans want.

So, we don’t have any intention to exterminate Ukrainian people. They are brothers and sisters to the Russian people.

Civilian Casualties in Ukraine and Palestine

TUCKER CARLSON: How many have died so far, do you think, on both sides?

SERGEY LAVROV: It is not disclosed by Ukrainians. Zelensky was saying that it is much less than 80,000 persons on Ukrainian side. But there is one very, very reliable figure in Palestine during one year after the Israelis started their operation in response to this terrorist attack which we condemned. And this operation, of course, acquired the proportion of collective punishment which is against international humanitarian law as well.

So, during one year after the operation started in Palestine, the number of civilians, Palestinian civilians, killed is estimated 45,000. This is almost twice as many as the number of civilians on both sides of Ukrainian conflict who died during 10 years after the coup. One year and 10 years.

So, it is a tragedy in Ukraine. It is a disaster in Palestine. But we never, ever had as our goal killing people. And Ukrainian regime did. The head of the office of Zelensky once said that we will make sure that cities like Kharkiv and Mykolaiv will forget what Russian means at all. Another guy in his office stated that Ukrainians must exterminate Russians through law or if necessary physically.

Ukrainian former ambassador to Kazakhstan, I forgot his name, became famous when giving an interview and looking into the camera being recorded and broadcast. He said “our main task is to kill as many Russians as we can so that our kids have less things to do.” And the statements like this are all over the vocabulary of the regime.

TUCKER CARLSON: How many Russians in Russia have been killed since February of 2022?

SERGEY LAVROV: It’s not for me to disclose this information. In the time of military operations, special rules exist. And our Minister of Defense follows these rules.

Zelensky’s Stance on the Russian Language

But the very interesting fact that when Zelensky was playing not in international arena, but at his comedy club or whatever it is called, he was… There are videos from that period when he was bluntly defending the Russian language. He was saying, “What is wrong with Russian language? I speak Russian. Russians are our neighbors. Russian is one of our languages.” And “Get lost,” he said, to those who wanted to attack the Russian language and Russian culture.

When he became president, he changed very fast. And before the military operations, in September 2021, he was interviewed. And at that time, he was conducting war against Donbass in violation of the Minsk agreements. And the interviewer asked him what he thought about the people on the other side of the line of contact. And he answered very thoughtfully, you know, “There are people and there are species.”

“And if you, living in Ukraine, feel associated with the Russian culture, my advice to you for the sake of your kids, for the sake of your grandkids, get out to Russia.” And if this guy wants to bring Russians and people of Russian culture back under his territorial integrity, I mean, it shows that he is not adequate.

Russia’s Terms for Ceasefire

TUCKER CARLSON: So what are the terms under which Russia would cease hostilities? Like, what are you asking for?

SERGEY LAVROV: Ten years ago, in February 2014, we were asking only for the deal between the president and the opposition. To have government of national unions and to hold early elections to be implemented. The deal was signed. And we were asking for the implementation of this deal. They were absolutely impatient and aggressive. And they were, of course, pushed, I have no slightest doubt, by the Americans. Because if Victoria Nuland and the U.S. ambassador agreed the composition of the government, why wait for five months to hold early elections?

The next time we were in favor of something was when the Minsk agreements were signed. I was there. The negotiations lasted for 17 hours. And the deal was, well, Crimea was lost by that time because of referendum. And nobody, including my colleague John Kerry, meeting with us, nobody in the West was raising the issue of Crimea. Everybody was concentrated on Donbass.

And the Minsk agreements provided for territorial integrity of Ukraine, minus Crimea. This was not even raised. And a special status for a very tiny part of Donbass. Not for the entire Donbass. Not for Novorossiya at all. Part of Donbass, under these Minsk agreements, endorsed by the Security Council, should have the right to speak Russian language, to teach Russian language, to study in Russian, to have local law enforcement, like in the states of U.S., to be consulted when judges and prosecutors are appointed by the central authority, and to have some facilitated economic connections with neighboring regions of Russia. That’s it. Something which President Macron promised to give to Corsica and still is considering how to do this.

And when these agreements were sabotaged all along, by first by Poroshenko and then by Zelensky, both of them, by the way, came to presidency, running on the promise of peace. And both of them lied. So when these Minsk agreements were sabotaged to the extent that we saw the attempts to take this tiny part of Donbass by force, and we, as Putin explained, at that time we suggested these security arrangements to NATO and the United States, which was rejected.

And when the Plan B was launched by Ukraine and its sponsors, trying to take this part of Donbass by force, it was then that we launched this special military operation. Had they implemented the Minsk agreements, Ukraine would be one piece minus Crimea.

The Istanbul Negotiations

SERGEY LAVROV: But even then, when Ukrainians, after we started the operation, suggested to negotiate, we agreed. There were several rounds in Belarus, and one later they moved to Istanbul, and in Istanbul Ukrainian delegation put a paper on the table saying those are the principles on which we are ready to agree. And we accepted those principles.

TUCKER CARLSON: The Minsk principles.

SERGEY LAVROV: No, no, no, the Istanbul principles. Yes. It was April 22. Which was no NATO, but security guarantees to Ukraine collectively provided with the participation of Russia. And these security guarantees would not cover Crimea or the east of Ukraine. It was their proposal. And it was initialed. And the head of the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, who is now the chair of the Zelensky faction in the parliament, he recently, a few months ago, in an interview, he confirmed that this was the case. And on the basis of these principles, we were ready to draft a treaty.

But then this gentleman who headed the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, he said that Boris Johnson visited and told them to continue to fight.

TUCKER CARLSON: But Boris Johnson on behalf of…

SERGEY LAVROV: He said no. But, you know, the guy who initialed the paper, he said it was Boris Johnson. Other people say it was Putin who ruined the deal because of the massacre in Bucha. But massacre in Bucha is something which I… They never mentioned anymore massacre in Bucha. I do and we do.

The Bucha Massacre

SERGEY LAVROV: In a sense, they are on the defensive. Several times in the United Nations Security Council, sitting at the table with Antonio Guterres, I, two years ago and last year, and last year and this year, the General Assembly, I raised the issue of Bucha and said, “Guys, it is strange that you are silent about Bucha because you were very vocal when BBC team found itself on the street where the bodies were located. And can we,” I inquired, “can we get the names of the persons whose bodies were broadcast by BBC?” Total silence.

I addressed Antonio Guterres personally in the presence of the Security Council members. He did not respond. Then at my press conference in New York, after the end of the General Assembly last September, I asked all the correspondents, “Guys, you are journalists. Maybe you are not investigative journalists, but journalists normally are interested to get the truth. And Bucha’s thing, which was played all over the media outlets, condemning Russia, is not of any interest to anyone. Politicians, UN officials, and now even journalists.” I asked them when I talked to them in September, “Please, as professional people, try to get the names of those whose bodies were shown in Bucha.” No answer.

The Navalny and Skripal Cases

SERGEY LAVROV: Just like we don’t have any answer to the question, where is the result of medical analysis of Alexei Navalny, who died recently, but who was treated in Germany in the fall of 2020. When he fell bad on a plane over Russia, the plane landed. He was treated by the Russian doctors in Siberia. Then the Germans wanted to take him. We immediately allowed the plane to come. They took him in less than 24 hours. He was in Germany.

And then the Germans continued to say that we poisoned him. And we asked them, “Can you…” And they announced that the analysis confirmed that he was poisoned. We asked for the test results to be given to us. They said, “No, we give it to the organization on chemical weapons.” We went to this organization. We are members. And we said, “Can you show it to us, because this is our citizen. We are accused of having poisoned him.” They said, “The Germans told us not to give it to you,” because they found nothing in the civilian hospital. And the announcement that he was poisoned was made after he was treated in a military hospital, Bundeswehr hospital. So it seems that this secret is not going…

TUCKER CARLSON: So how did Navalny die?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, he died serving the term in Russia. But he, during, as far as it was reported, every now and then he felt not well. Which was another reason why we continued to ask the Germans, “Can you show us the results which you found?” Because we did not find what they found. And what they did to him, I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: What the Germans did to him?

SERGEY LAVROV: Yeah, because they don’t explain to anybody, including us. Or maybe they explain to the Americans. Maybe this is credible. But they never told us how they treated him, what they found, and what methods they were using.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you think he died?

SERGEY LAVROV: I’m not a doctor. But for anybody to guess, even for the doctors to try to guess, they need to have information. And if the person was taken to Germany to be treated after he had been poisoned, the results of the tests cannot be secret. We still cannot get anything credible on the fate of Skripal, Sergei Skripal and his daughter. The information is not provided to us. He is our citizen, she is our citizen, and we have all the rights and the conventions which the UK is party to, to get information.

Boris Johnson’s Role

TUCKER CARLSON: Why do you think, so many threads, but why do you think that Boris Johnson, former Prime Minister of the UK, would have stopped the peace process in Istanbul? On whose behalf was he doing that?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, I met with him a couple of times, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he was motivated by some immediate desire or by some long-term strategy. He is not very predictable.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Do you think he was acting on behalf of the US government, on behalf of the Biden administration?

SERGEY LAVROV: I don’t know. I don’t know, and I wouldn’t guess. The fact that the Americans and the Brits are leading in this quote-unquote situation is obvious. Now it is becoming also clear that there is a fatigue in some capitals, and there are talks every now and then that the Americans would like to leave it with the Europeans, and to concentrate on something more important. I wouldn’t guess. We would be judging by specific steps.

The Biden Administration’s Approach

SERGEY LAVROV: It’s obvious, though, that the Biden administration would like to leave a legacy to the Trump administration as bad as they can. And similar to what Obama did to Trump during his first term, when late December 2016 Obama expelled Russian diplomats, just very late December, 120 persons with family members.

He did it on purpose. He demanded them leave on the day when there was no direct flight from Washington. So they had to move to New York by buses with all their luggage, with children, and so on and so forth. And at the same time Obama announced the arrest of pieces of diplomatic property of Russia. And we still never were able to come and see what is the state of this Russian property. They never allowed us to come and see, though, under all conventions. They just say that these pieces we don’t consider as being covered by diplomatic immunity, which is a unilateral decision never substantiated by any international court.

TUCKER CARLSON: So you believe the Biden administration is doing something similar again to the incoming Trump administration?

SERGEY LAVROV: Because that episode with the expulsion and the seizure of property certainly did not create the promising ground for beginning of our relations with the Trump administration. So I think they’re doing the same.

Prospects for Resolution Under Trump

TUCKER CARLSON: But this time President Trump was elected on the explicit promise to bring an end to the war in Ukraine. So, I mean, he said that in appearance after appearance. So given that, there is hope for a resolution it sounds like. What are the terms to which you’d agree?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, the terms I basically alluded to them. When President Putin spoke in this ministry on the 14th of June, he once again reiterated that we were ready to negotiate on the basis of the principles, which were agreed in Istanbul and rejected by Boris Johnson, according to the statement of the head of the Ukrainian delegation. The key principle is non-bloc status of Ukraine, and we would be ready to be part of the group of countries who would provide collective security guarantees.

TUCKER CARLSON: No NATO?

SERGEY LAVROV: No NATO, absolutely, no military bases, no military exercises on the Ukrainian soil with participation of foreign troops. And this is something which he reiterated. But of course, he said, it was April 2022. Now some time has passed, and the realities on the ground would have to be taken into account and accepted.

The realities on the ground are not only the line of contact, but also the changes in the Russian constitution after referendum was held in Donetsk, Lugansk, Republics and Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions. And they are now part of the Russian Federation according to the constitution, and this is a reality.

And of course, we cannot tolerate a deal which would keep the legislation, which are prohibiting Russian language, Russian media, Russian culture, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, because it is a violation of the obligations of Ukraine under the UN Charter, and somebody must be done about it. And the fact that the West, since this Russophobic legislative offensive started in 2017, and the West was totally silent, and it is silent until now, of course we would have to pay attention to this in a very special way.

TUCKER CARLSON: Would dropping sanctions against Russia be a condition?

SERGEY LAVROV: I would say probably many people in Russia would like to make it a condition, but the more we live under sanctions, the more we understand that it is better to rely on yourself, and to develop mechanisms, to develop platforms for cooperation with normal countries who are not unfriendly to you, and don’t mix economic interest and policies, and especially politics.

And we learned a lot after the sanctions started. Sanctions started under Obama, they continued in a very big way under the first term of Trump, and these sanctions under the Biden administration are absolutely unprecedented, but what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, you know. They would never kill us, so they are making us stronger.

The Impossibility of Russia Joining the West

TUCKER CARLSON: And driving Russia East. And so the vision that I think sane policy makers in Washington had 20 years ago, is why not bring Russia into a Western block, sort of as a balance against the rising East, but it doesn’t seem like that, do you think that’s still possible?

SERGEY LAVROV: I don’t think so. Recently Putin was speaking at Valdai Club, and one of the politologists and experts, he said we would never be back at the situation of early 2022. That’s when he realized for himself apparently, not only he, but he spoke publicly about this, that all attempts to be on equal terms with the West have failed.

It started after the demise of the Soviet Union, there was euphoria, we are now part of the liberal world, the democratic world, end of history. But very soon it became clear to most of the Russians that in the 90s, we were treated at best as junior partners, maybe not even as a partner, but as a place where the West can organize things like it wants. Striking deals with oligarchs, buying resources and assets, and then probably the Americans decided that Russia is in their pocket.

Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton, bodies laughing, joking, but even at the end of Yeltsin’s term, he started to contemplate that this was not something he wanted for Russia. And I think this was very obvious when he appointed Putin Prime Minister, and then left earlier and blessed Putin as his successor for the elections, which were coming and which Putin won.

But when Putin became President, he was very much open to cooperation with the West. He mentions about this quite regularly when he speaks with interviewers or at some international events.

NATO Expansion and the 2008 Bucharest Summit

SERGEY LAVROV: I was present when he met with George Bush, Jr., with Obama. Well, after the meeting of NATO in Bucharest, which was accompanied, which was followed by NATO-Russia meeting, summit meeting in 2008, when they announced that Georgia and Ukraine will be in NATO, and then they tried to sell it to us. We asked why. There was lunch and Putin asked what was the reason for this.

TUCKER CARLSON: Great question.

SERGEY LAVROV: And they said, you know, this is something which is not obligatory. How come? Well, you know, to start the process of joining NATO, you need a formal invitation. And this is a slogan. Ukraine and Georgia will be in NATO.

But this slogan, you know, became obsession for some people in Tbilisi first, when Saakashvili lost his senses and started the war against his own people under the protection of OSCE mission, with the Russian peacekeepers on the ground. And the fact that he launched this was confirmed by the European Union investigation, which they launched and which concluded that he gave the order to start.

And for Ukrainians, it took a bit longer, and they were cultivating this pro-Western mood. Well, pro-Western is not bad, basically. Pro-Eastern is also not bad. What is bad is that you tell people either or. Either you go with me, or you’re my enemy.

The EU-Ukraine Association Agreement and 2014 Maidan Coup

SERGEY LAVROV: What happened before the coup in Ukraine? In 2013, the president of Ukraine, it was Mr. Yanukovych, negotiated with the European Union some association agreement which would nullify tariffs on most of the Ukrainian goods to the European Union and the other way around. And at some point, when he was meeting with Russian counterparts, we told him, you have already, Ukraine had, was part of the free trade area of the Commonwealth of Independent States. No tariffs for everybody.

And we, Russia, negotiated agreement with World Trade Organization for some 15-17 years, mostly because we bargained with European Union. And we achieved some protection for many of our sectors, agriculture, some others. And we explained to the Ukrainians that if you go zero in your trade with European Union, we would have to protect our customs border with you, with Ukraine. Otherwise, the zero tariff European goods would flood and would be hurting our industries, which we tried to protect and agreed for some protection.

Then we suggested to the European Union, guys, Ukraine is our common neighbor. You want to have better trade with Ukraine. We want the same. Ukraine wants to have markets both in Europe and in Russia. Why don’t we see three of us and discuss it like grown-ups?

The head of the European Commission was the Portuguese, Barroso was his name. And he responded, you know, it’s none of your business what we do with Ukraine. We, for example, with European Union, we don’t ask you to discuss with us your trade with China. Absolutely arrogant answer. And then the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, he convinced his experts, and the experts said, yes, it would be not very good if we have opened the border with European Union, but the customs border with Russia would be closed.

And they would be checking, you know, what is coming, so that the Russian market is not affected. And he announced in November 2013 that he cannot sign the deal immediately, and he asked the European Union to postpone it for next year, until next year. That was the trigger for Maidan, which was immediately thrown up and ended by the coup.

My point is that this either-or, actually the first coup took place in 2004, when after second round of elections, the same Mr. Yanukovych won presidency, the West raised hell, and put pressure on the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, to rule that there must be a third round. And the Constitution of Ukraine says two rounds, and the Constitutional Court, under the pressure of the West, violated the Constitution for the first time then. And pro-Western candidate was chosen.

At that time, when all this was taking place and boiling, the European leaders were publicly saying, Ukrainian people must decide, are they with us or with Russia? This either-or is still very much, very much…

Russia’s Relations with the West and China

TUCKER CARLSON: But it is the way that big countries behave. I mean, there are certain orbits, and now it’s BRICS versus NATO, US versus China, and it sounds like you’re saying the Russian-Chinese alliance is permanent.

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, we are neighbors. We are neighbors. Of course. And geography is very important.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re also neighbors with Western Europe. You’re part of it, in effect.

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, through Ukraine. And Western Europe wants to come to our borders. And there were plans that, you know, were discussed almost openly to put British naval bases on the Sea of Azov. Crimea was eyed, you know, dreaming about creating NATO base in Crimea, and so on and so forth.

Look, we have been very friendly with Finland, for example. Overnight, the Finns came back to early years of preparation for World War II, when they were best allies of Hitler, and all this neutrality, all this friendship, going to sauna together, playing hockey together, all this disappeared overnight. So maybe this was deep in their hearts, and the neutrality was burdening them, and niceties were burdening for them. I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s totally possible.

Prospects for Negotiations with Zelensky

TUCKER CARLSON: Can you negotiate with Zelensky? You’ve pointed out that he has exceeded his term. He’s not, you know, democratically elected president of Ukraine anymore. So do you consider him a suitable partner for negotiations?

SERGEY LAVROV: Putin addressed this issue as well, many times. In September 2022, during the first year of the special operation, Zelensky, in his conviction that he would be dictating the terms of the situation also to the West, he signed a decree prohibiting any negotiations with Putin’s government.

And when, during public events, after that episode, Putin is asked, why Russia is not ready for negotiations, he said, don’t turn it upside down. We are ready for negotiations, provided it will be based on the balance of interest. Tomorrow. But Zelensky signed this decree prohibiting negotiations, and for starters, why don’t you tell him to cancel it publicly? This will be a signal that he wants negotiations.

Instead, Zelensky invented his peace formula. Later, it was auditioned by a victory plan, and they keep saying, we know what they say when they meet with European Union ambassadors, and in other formats, they say, no deal unless the deal is on our terms.

And I mentioned to you, they are planning now the second summit, on the basis of this peace formula, and they don’t shy away from saying, we will invite Russia to put in front of it the deal which we agreed already with the West. And when our Western colleagues sometimes say, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, in effect, this implies that anything about Russia without Russia. Because they discuss what kind of conditions we must accept.

By the way, recently they already violate tacitly the concept, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. There are passes, there are messages. They know our position, we are not playing double game. What Putin announced is the goal of our operation. It’s fair, it’s fully in line with the United Nations Charter. First of all, the rights, language rights, minority rights, national minority rights, religious rights, and it’s fully in line with OSCE principle.

There is an organization for security and cooperation in Europe, which is still alive. And the summit of this organization, well, several summits of this organization, clearly stated that security must be indivisible, that nobody should expend his security at the expense of security of others, and that, most important, no organization in Euro-Atlantic space shall claim dominance. This was last time it was confirmed by OSCE 2010. And NATO was doing exactly the opposite. So we have legitimacy in our position. No NATO on our doorsteps, because OSCE agreed that this should not be the case if it hurts us. And please restore the rights of Russians.

Lack of Communication with US Officials

TUCKER CARLSON: Who do you think has been making foreign policy decisions in the United States? This is a question in the United States.

SERGEY LAVROV: I wouldn’t guess. I haven’t seen Tony Blinken for years. Two years ago, I think, at the G20 summit, was it in Rome or somewhere? In the margins, in the margins. His assistant, I was representing Putin, and his assistant came up to me during the meeting and said that Tony wants to talk just for 10 minutes.

I left the room. We shook hands, and he said something about the need to de-escalate and so on and so forth. I hope he’s not going to be angry with me since I’m disclosing this. But we were meeting in front of many people present in the room, and I said, we don’t want to escalate. You want to inflict strategic defeat upon Russia. He said, no, no, no, no. It is not strategic defeat globally. It is only in Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’ve not spoken to him since?

SERGEY LAVROV: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: Have you spoken to any officials in the Biden administration since then?

SERGEY LAVROV: I don’t want to ruin their career.

Lack of Meaningful Conversations with US Officials

TUCKER CARLSON: But have you had meaningful conversations?

SERGEY LAVROV: No, no. Not at all. You know, when I met in international events, one or another person whom I know, an American, some of them say hello, some of them exchange a few words, but I never impose myself.

TUCKER CARLSON: But nothing meaningful behind that.

SERGEY LAVROV: It’s becoming contagious, you know, when somebody sees an American talking to me, or a European talking to me. Europeans are running away when they see me. During the last G20 meeting, it was ridiculous. Grown-up people, mature people, they behave like you’re so childish. Unbelievable.

US Efforts to Create Instability

TUCKER CARLSON: So you said that when in 2016, in December, the Obama administration left a bunch of bombs, basically, for the incoming Trump administration, in the last month since the election, you have all sorts of things going on politically in bordering states in this region, that, you know, in Georgia, in Belarus, in Romania, and then, of course, most dramatically in Syria, you have turmoil. Does this seem like part of an effort by the United States to make the resolution more difficult?

SERGEY LAVROV: There is nothing new, frankly, because the U.S., historically, in foreign policy, was motivated by making some trouble and then to see if they can fish in the muddy water. Iraqi aggression, Libyan adventure, ruining the state, basically. Fleeing from Afghanistan, now trying to get back through the back door, using the United Nations, you know, to organize some event where the U.S. can be present, in spite of the fact that they left Afghanistan in very bad shape, and arrested money, don’t want to give it back. I think this is, if you analyze the American foreign policy steps, adventures, most of them, is the right word, that’s the pattern, they create some trouble and then they see how to use it.

In Georgia, the OSC monitors elections, when it used to monitor elections. In Russia, they would always be very negative, and in other countries as well. Belarus, Kazakhstan. This time, in Georgia, the monitoring mission of OSC presented a positive report, and it is being ignored.

So, when you need endorsement of the procedures, you do it when you like the results of the election. If you don’t like the results of elections, you ignore it. It’s like when the United States and other Western countries recognized unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo, they said, this is the self-determination being implemented. When a few years later, and there was no referendum in Kosovo, unilateral declaration of independence.

By the way, after that, the Serbs approached International Court of Justice, which ruled that, well normally they are not very specific in their judgment, but they ruled that unilateral, or rather, when part of a territory declares independence, it is not necessarily to be agreed with the central authorities. And when a few years later, Crimeans were holding referendum with invitation of many international observers, not from international organizations, but from parliamentarians in Europe, in Asia, in post-Soviet space, they said, no, we cannot accept this because this is violation of territorial integrity. You pick and choose. The UN Charter is not a menu. You have to respect it in all its entirety.

The Situation in Syria

TUCKER CARLSON: Who is paying the rebels who have taken parts of Aleppo? Is the Assad government in danger of falling? What is happening exactly, in your view, in Syria?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, we had a deal when this crisis started, and we organized the Astana process of Russia, Turkey, and Iran. We meet regularly, and another meeting is being planned before the end of the year, or early next year, to discuss the situation on the ground. And the rules of the game is to help Syrians to come to terms with each other, and to prevent separatist trends from, you know, getting strong. That’s what the Americans are doing in the east of Syria when they groom some Kurdish separatists using the profits from oil and grain, salt, the resources which they occupy.

This Astana format is a useful combination of players, if you wish. And we are very much concerned. After this happened, with Aleppo and surroundings, I had a conversation with the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs and with Iranian colleagues. We agreed to try to meet this week.

TUCKER CARLSON: Did you see it coming?

SERGEY LAVROV: Hopefully in Doha, in the margins of this international conference, we would like to discuss the need to come back to strict implementation of the deals on Idlib area, because Idlib de-escalation zone was the place from where the terrorists moved to take Aleppo. And the arrangements reached in 2019 and 2020 provided for our Turkish friends to control the situation in the Idlib de-escalation zone, and to separate the Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, former Nusra, from the opposition which is non-terrorist and which cooperates with Turkey. Apparently it has not yet been.

And another deal was the opening of M5 route from Damascus to Aleppo, which is also now taken completely by the terrorists. So we as Ministers of Foreign Affairs would discuss the situation, hopefully this coming Friday, and the military of all three countries and the security people are in contact with each other.

TUCKER CARLSON: But the Islamist groups, the terrorists you just described, who is backing them?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, we have some information and we would like to discuss with all our partners in this process, the way to cut the channels of financing and arming them. The information which is being floated and it’s in the public domain, mentions the Americans, the Brits, among others. Some people say that Israel is interested in, you know, making this situation aggravate, so that Gaza is not under very close scrutiny. It’s a complicated game. Many, many actors are involved and I hope that the context which we are planning for this week will help stabilize the situation.

Impressions of Donald Trump

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you think of Donald Trump?

SERGEY LAVROV: I met him several times when he was having meetings with Putin and he received me twice, I think, in the Oval Office when I was visiting for bilateral talks. Well, I think he is a very strong person, a person who wants results, who doesn’t like procrastination on anything, and this is my impression. He is very friendly in, you know, discussions, but this does not mean that he is pro-Russian, as some people try to present him. The amount of sanctions we received under the Trump administration was very, very, very big.

And we respect any choice which is made by the people when they vote. We respect the choice of American people and we are open, as Putin said, we are open to contacts. We have been open all along with the current administration and we hope that when Biden — when Donald Trump is inaugurated, we will understand. The ball, as Putin said, is on their side. We never severed our contacts, our ties in economy, trade, on security, on anything.

Risks of Escalation Between Russia and the US

TUCKER CARLSON: And my final question is, how sincerely worried are you about an escalation in conflict between Russia and the United States, knowing what you do?

SERGEY LAVROV: Well, we started with this question, more or less.

TUCKER CARLSON: It seems the central question.

SERGEY LAVROV: Yes, and the Europeans say that it’s not, they whisper, whisper to each other that it is not for Zelensky to dictate the terms of the deal, it’s for the US and Russia. I don’t think we should be presenting our relations as, you know, two guys decide for everybody. Not at all. It is not our style. We prefer the manners which dominate in BRICS, in Shanghai Cooperation Organization, where the UN chapter principle of sovereign equality of states is really embodied.

The US is not used to respect sovereign equality of states. The United States, you know, when they say we cannot allow Russia to win on Ukraine, because this would undermine our rules-based world order. And the rules-based world order is American domination.

Now, by the way, NATO, at least under Biden administration, is eyeing the entire Eurasian continent. Indian Pacific strategies, South China Sea, East China Sea is already on NATO agenda. NATO is moving infrastructure there. AUKUS, building a quartered Indo-Pacific for, they call it, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea. US, South Korea and Japan are building military alliance with some nuclear components.

And Stoltenberg, the former Secretary General of NATO, said last year after the summit, which he said, your Atlantic security is indivisible from Indo-Pacific security. When he was asked, does it mean that you go beyond territorial defense? No, no, no. It doesn’t go beyond territorial defense. But to defend our territory, we need to be present there. This element of preemption is more and more present.

But with the United States, we don’t want war with anybody. And as I said, five nuclear states declared at the top level in January 2022 that we don’t want confrontation with each other and that we shall respect each other’s security interests and concerns. And it also stated nuclear war can never be won and therefore nuclear war is not possible. And the same was reiterated bilaterally between Russia and the United States, Putin, Biden, when they met in ’21 in Geneva in June. Basically, they reproduced the statement by Reagan and Gorbachev of 1987, I think, no nuclear war.

And this is absolutely in our vital interest and I hope that this is also in vital interest of the United States. I say so because some time ago, Mr. Kirby, who is White House communications coordinator or whatever, he was asking questions, answering questions about escalation and about possibility of nuclear weapons being employed. And he said, oh no, no, we don’t want escalation because if there is some nuclear element, then our European allies would suffer. So even mentally, he excludes that the United States can suffer. And this is something which makes the situation a bit risky. It might, if this mentality prevails, then some reckless steps could be taken and this is bad.

TUCKER CARLSON: So what I think you’re saying is American policymakers imagine there could be a nuclear exchange that doesn’t directly affect the United States and you’re saying that’s not true.

SERGEY LAVROV: That’s what I said, yes. No, but you know, professionals in deterrence, nuclear deterrence policy, they know very well that it’s a very dangerous game. And to speak about limited exchange of nuclear strikes is an invitation to disaster, which we don’t want to have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Mr. Lavrov, thank you very much.

SERGEY LAVROV: Thank you.

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