Here is the full transcript of political commentator Larry C. Johnson’s interview on Judging Freedom Podcast with host Judge Napolitano on “Epstein and Kirk Attack Trump from Their Graves”, November 17, 2025.
Opening Remarks
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Hi, everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, November 17, 2025. Staying up late for us and directly from Moscow is our dear friend and regular colleague Larry Johnson.
Larry, never want to skip a beat. Thank you very much for joining us. I know you’ve had long full days and are doing much traveling, but thank you for accommodating my schedule. Before I ask you about what is happening here. We can’t hear you, Larry.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Okay, can you hear me now?
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Yes. Yeah, we got you now.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: I’m filing a medical complaint against you. All the times have been asked to sign an autograph on your behalf. My arm is tired.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Did you actually sign the autograph?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: But absolutely, dude. You can’t believe how many people you’re on Judge Napolitano. They don’t go, “You’re Larry Johnson.” No, “You’re on Judge Napolitano.”
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Oh, God. Chris, play the clip that Larry sent us of him with the Russian ambassador to Saudi Arabia.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Judge, meet Ambassador Baklanov. Yeah, he is.
Baklanov: Good evening.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: He is a fan of Judge Napolitano. And your show is very important here in Russia, so he says. Thank you. Many TV viewers will share this point of view, so best regards.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Thank you. Well, thank you for that, Larry. How did you run into the ambassador?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: We were—Alastair Crooke and I were at the New School of Economics, which is one of the leading universities in Moscow. And so Alastair and I were sitting side by side and the ambassador was one of the participants, and he came up later, and again, you know, he’s talking about you, not talking about me. I’m going, “Hey, I’m somebody.” No, no, no. Judge Napolitano, it’s very flattering, and thank you.
Trump’s Venezuela Negotiations
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Thank you very much for mentioning it. I want to talk to you about NATO and I want to talk to you about Ukraine. I want to talk to you about MAGA bleeding support over here. But before I do, earlier today, you may not know this. President Trump says he’s willing to negotiate with President Maduro of Venezuela. What are they going to negotiate?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Yeah, well, what they’re going to negotiate is giving us access to the oil and the US avoiding going into Venezuela and risking the chance of getting its rear end kicked in.
You know, the United States has had an enormous military force deployed off the coast of Venezuela now for three months. You can’t deploy that kind of force and not use it without it degrading and losing capability. They’ve lost capability.
And I think at least some people with an ounce of brains around Donald Trump are saying we can’t afford the risk of attacking Venezuela because if they do, if the United States did, we would run the risk of losing ships. Venezuela has the capability to launch missiles that would sink US destroyers and, or the aircraft carrier, number one.
Number two, the United States does not have enough personnel to land on Venezuela and then be able to, quote, take control of Caracas. A large number of them would be killed.
Three, the United States could launch some airstrikes. But in launching those airstrikes, the risk of US aircraft getting shot down is extremely high. So I think Donald Trump has finally come to realize, you know what, it may be better to negotiate with Venezuela. What would it be? Venezuela is willing to make a deal.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: What would it cost the federal government to amass that kind of an armada in that place? And is it risky to do so by exposing other areas to be unprotected by where that armada normally operates?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Yeah, about a billion dollars, number one.
Number two, Venezuela has more military capability than the Houthis. All right, remember the Houthis. We were there in March for seven weeks and then Donald Trump says, “Oh, they capitulated, we’re pulling out.” Well, they didn’t capitulate, but we pulled out. Why? Because we could not sustain the losses that we were incurring in the Red Sea.
So, you know, the word starting to spread around the globe. Yeah, US talks tough, but man, they cannot hang. The Houthis beat them. And now what we’re demonstrating is up against Venezuela. The United States is not going to risk it militarily because it would do significant damage to the United States and would expose us, frankly, as a paper tiger.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: What conceivable threat to the national security of the United States does Nicolas Maduro’s Venezuela pose?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Zero, zero threat. And look something, well, he’s exporting fentanyl. Okay, I’ve got some skin in this game. My 39-year-old nephew died in my house from a fentanyl overdose. Okay? So I don’t ignore the tragic dimensions of this, but Venezuela is not the primary mover of fentanyl. It’s not the primary mover of heroin, it’s not the primary mover of cocaine.
Deal with that, deal with Mexico, deal with Colombia, not Venezuela. And this attempt to destroy Venezuela militarily, again, it’s exposed the United States, I claim, as the paper tiger. We make these huge threats, but when it comes down to actually having to deliver on it, we’re not capable.
Because Venezuela has missiles that can be launched from F-16s that they’re flying, that can hit the US aircraft carrier, and hit US destroyers and basically sink them. United States doesn’t want to do that because it’s going to expose us as weaklings, not as this enormous country with great military strength.
Russian Perspectives on Ukraine
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: You and I happily spent a lot of time in Moscow. I wish I were with you this time, but I’m not.
But have you been able to put your finger on the pulse of Russian thinking, whether it’s elites or average Russians, about the war in Ukraine? And if you have been able to do that, what have you gleaned from that?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: They are trying to figure out what is it that Donald Trump’s trying to do. They are completely confused by Donald Trump.
However, that said, what Russia is doing now, according to their general staff, they have acquired sufficient troops that they’re launching multiple attacks at least in nine sectors along the line of conflict that Ukraine’s unable to resist. And so Russia is advancing rapidly to the west, and Ukraine can’t stop him.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Is there any pressure, obviously would be not public, but is there any pressure on President Putin to bring the war to a swift conclusion or swifter conclusion than his slow, methodical pace has been producing?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Zero. Zero pressure. If anything, there are a number of Russians that believe that the Russian military ought to move with more force.
But what we’re seeing with the Russian military, they have recognized they’ve been building up and gathering their forces over time. Just because you mobilize the number of people, they’re not ready to fight. You got to, you know, they got to be trained for three to six months.
And so Russia is just, they’re tending to their business. They are building up their forces. Those forces as they’re coming online, provide additional resources that the Ukrainians are incapable of stopping. And so what we’re seeing right now is a slow but gradual collapse of the Ukrainian front line.
Illegal Killings on the High Seas
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Is there any talk among the Russians of Trump’s murdering people on the high seas off the coast of Venezuela and off the coast of Colombia?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Yeah. I got a call the other night from BBC, and BBC was saying, “Boy, you know, the British intelligence is going to stop providing intelligence to the United States. What do you think about that?”
I said, “Well, I give the Brits credit that they finally recognize the United States is engaged in an illegal activity.” And what was funny is about 30 minutes later, that’s okay. “Well, we’re going to go a different direction.” Okay. They didn’t like what I had to say.
But the fact of the matter is when the Brits are calling out the United States and the French as well, for carrying out what are illegal under international law, attacks on these, quote, drug boats. You know what? If those boats are actually carrying narcotics, the United States military, the United States Coast Guard, has the ability to seize those boats. Right? To take control of the cocaine or the fentanyl, whatever it is. And then once you have those people in custody, you can sweat them. “Hey, cooperate with us, you’re not going to go to jail.”
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: You know, that is the perfect thing for them to do. Some of those people would trade their freedom, or at least trade a lesser jail sentence in return for squealing on the higher ups who dispatched them.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Absolutely.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: And now there’s no evidence. What remains now are the families of fishermen who were murdered talking about how they can bring actions against the government of the United States, which, if they do, in a US Federal court, will finally get this before a federal judge.
But, Larry, the same office in the Justice Department that told George W. Bush he could torture and Barack Obama that he could kill Americans with a drone, told Donald Trump that he and Hegseth can murder all the people in the high seas they want and keep secret the legal rationale for doing so.
Your point is very well taken. You and Ritter and McGovern and the others have educated our audience that MI6 is more daring than the CIA. And even they’re saying it’s a war crime.
Constitutional Violations
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Listen, those people in the Department of Justice, they need to go back to the Judge Napolitano school of law, okay? They need to be instructed in the basics, the fundamentals of the Constitution, about how you produce evidence and about under what circumstances is the United States government allowed to carry out extrajudicial executions of people.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Right.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: And last time I checked, the Constitution does not endorse extrajudicial execution of people. The Constitution states that there is the presumption of innocence until the government proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt. Correct. That this person or persons were engaged in criminal activity that could cause the loss of life. You know what? That’s the Constitution.
And I had 28 ancestors that fought for this. And what? And this didn’t start with Donald Trump. This started with Bill Clinton, continued with George W. Bush, continued with Barack Obama, continued with Joe Biden. And it’s wrong.
The American people need to stand up and say this is wrong. Because murdering people like this just because we think they’re bad guys. I’ve been around intelligence enough over good God now the last 40 years. And I know that intelligence can be wrong. And yet to use wrong intelligence in order to take the lives of human beings is—it’s a sin against God. It’s a sin against the Constitution. It’s wrong.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: It’s murder. Pure, pure and simple.
Trump’s Reversal on Epstein Files
I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but because you’re in Russia. But last night President Trump did a 180 on the Epstein files. And when he was told that scores of Republicans are going to vote in favor of the release, he called upon Republicans to release the Epstein files.
Now this is in plain English, ridiculous because they spent three or four hours stiff arming the congresswoman from Colorado to get her not to sign the petition. Then Massie told them, of all the Republicans that are going to vote in favor of this, Larry, the resolution orders the Justice Department to surrender the files. Guess who the Justice Department works for and who could, on his own, order the files surrendered? President Trump.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Well, you know, Alastair Crooke said something today in this briefing we were doing. He goes, “Trump doesn’t read.” And I had to interject and said, “Well, Alastair, my friend, I disagree with you. Trump—I agree Trump doesn’t read intelligence briefings, but by God, he reads polls.”
Yes, and the polls tell a different story. The polls tell the story that, “Hey, Donald Trump, you better step up, release these files like you promised to in your presidential campaign. Or if you don’t, you’re losing us as a base.” That’s why he did the 180-degree turn, or as Annalina Baerbock of the EU calls it, a 360. Oh, it wasn’t about face, whatever you want to call it.
MAGA Bleeding Support
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: You did an interesting piece recently. Maybe you did it on the plane. I’m not sure where you were about MAGA bleeding support over Epstein and over the death of Charlie Kirk, who shortly before he was murdered, recognized that he had been wrong to support unwaveringly the Netanyahu regime, was pressured by his Zionist big bucks donors to change his mind and he told them no and was fearful of his own death.
Well, we know what happened to Charlie, but we also know, and you wrote about it. In fact, you cited the numbers in your Sonar 21 piece that Trump is grievously hemorrhaging support amongst his own people.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Yeah, the under-30 crowd is abandoning him dramatically. Tucker Carlson, you know, 5.1 million subscribers. Candace Owens, 5.5 million subscribers. Nick Fuentes, well over 5 million. You know, these are not inconsequential numbers.
And Trump is losing major support among those under 30. And frankly, I think even those some of them who are up to my age, I’m 70. He’s lost my support. I think he has disgraced himself. I think he has proven to be a liar. He was given a chance to do the right thing, and instead he has submitted himself completely to these Zionist donors. It’s not America first, it’s Zionist first, America last.
Trump’s Mental State and Russian Perceptions
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Some of the people that you are rubbing elbows with are people close to the Kremlin, and some of them work in the Kremlin. And you told us earlier that they’re befuddled by Trump. Is there a view that this is Richard Nixon redux, that in other words, he is intentionally trying to confuse them and keep them off balance? Or do they think he just doesn’t know what the hell is going on and doesn’t have serious thoughts in his head?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: No, I think they’ve come to the conclusion that the head of the CIA, that Marco Rubio as the Secretary of State and National Security advisor, and that Scott Bessent, Secretary of Treasury, that they’re the ones calling the shots and that Susie Wiles, who is clearly a Zionist puppet, is controlling all of this.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Well, she is the Chief of Staff in the White House and the former manager of Prime Minister Netanyahu’s last campaign. I mean, you can’t make this stuff up, Larry.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Yeah, no. And so the combination of those three, they have, they push Trump into corner. Now, with Trump’s announcement with respect to Epstein, I firmly believe that in January, early February of this year, Trump was briefed on the danger that exposing Epstein and his activities, what that represented to both the CIA and Mossad. And that’s one of the reasons he tried to shut it down. Nothing to see here, move along.
But I think Susie Wiles came to him and said, hey, you can’t keep this up. You are bleeding support across the board. And Trump can read polls, and instead of bleeding support, he’s going to do what he can to retain it. Now, will this force a change in US Policy both with respect to Israel and with respect to Epstein? I hope so. But if Trump doesn’t, he’s dead. The Republican Party is dead come midterms of next year.
Questions About Trump’s Capacity
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Is he at his full capacity, physically and mentally?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: I don’t think so. We all have filters where sometimes we think things we should say, but we go, yeah, I probably shouldn’t say that. Trump has lost that filter. He has said a number of things that are so grotesque and over the top that it shows that that safety catch in the brain ain’t working.
So I think that’s another element that’s involved here that is as we move into next year, there may be serious questions arise about Trump’s mental competence to continue as president. You know, I think the key factors in this will be Don Jr. and Eric Trump. You know, they love their father and they’re good sons in that regard, but they recognize that he may be doing some damage to himself that would be irreparable.
If they don’t, you know, stop him, get him out of the way, maybe have him resign, maybe have JD Vance take over, we’ll see. But Trump’s current policies are destroying any hopes that he had of a legacy that people would celebrate years from now.
Expert Analysis on Trump’s Mental State
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Here’s Dr. John Gartner, graduate of Princeton and Johns Hopkins Medical School, one of the most sought after psychologists here in New York City. There are many clips of him. We’re just going to play one, Chris. The first of the two of them analyzing Trump’s mental state.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
DR. JOHN GARTNER: All of these things are going to get worse. You know, I always say, look at Donald Trump today, because that’s the best Donald Trump you’re ever going to see. Because dementia doesn’t stay the same and it doesn’t get better. It only gets worse. It’s a rock rolling downhill.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What do you think is wrong with President Trump?
DR. JOHN GARTNER: Two, maybe three major things. The first thing is that he has the most severe personality disorder, actually, that a human being can have. It’s called malignant narcissism. It was originally introduced by Erich Fromm, who escaped the Nazis, to explain the psychology of Hitler. And it has four components, narcissism, of course, but also psychopathy, or what we call antisocial personality disorder.
So lying, breaking laws and norms, having no remorse for the rights of others, also paranoia, and finally sadism. A lot of what he does is just is gleefully destructive and harmful, and it actually gives him enormous pleasure to hurt people and to destroy things.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Make sense to you? Can’t hear you, Larry.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Sorry. Somehow I got turned off. Okay. Yeah, it makes an enormous amount of sense. You know, Donald Trump’s 80. You know, my mother, when she turned 84, I was noticing significant changes in her mental status. She was previously always a very kind person. She got a little bit more snippy and cranky once she hit 84.
And I frankly, I think I’m seeing a little bit of that with Donald Trump. You know, there are ways, if you disagree with Marjorie Taylor Greene, there’s a way to take the high road and appear classy instead of grotesque. And Donald Trump’s choosing the grotesque grounds. He’s doing the same with Thomas Massie, and the same with Rand Paul.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Right.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: You know, these are actually, I believe these are legislators who are not your traditional politicians trying to shine themselves up for an election. They genuinely believe what they say. And for Trump to reject them outright like that I think is a disservice to his presidency and a disservice to America.
Upcoming Appearances
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Larry, will we see you for the Intelligence Community Roundtable on Friday? When are you going to be back?
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Believe it or not, I’ll get back sometime Thursday night. I’ll be there, man. I may be sleepy, but I’ll be there.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: And I think you and I are going to be together, by Zoom, of course, remote on Wednesday morning my time, Wednesday afternoon your time with our friend Natalia Godfrey and whoever it is.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: We’ll be interviewing Maria Zakharova.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Oh, good Lord, she didn’t tell me that. Well, she’s a good friend of yours and mine, and I look forward to it. Larry, thank you very much, my dear friend. I know it’s the middle of the night, but we deeply appreciate it.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: Anything for you, Judge.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: God love you, Larry.
LARRY C. JOHNSON: All the best. All right. Bye, bye.
JUDGE NAPOLITANO: Bye. Coming up at 4 o’clock this afternoon, cleanup hitter on all of this, Scott Ritter, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
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