Mike Huckabee’s Interview @Tucker Carlson Show (Transcript)

This was the person who the embassy was telling us was going to handle all of our travel.

A Tense Exchange with the Embassy

So it was at this point that I just called the spokesman for the US Embassy in Israel. And I said, “Okay, I’m an American citizen responding to an invitation from the American ambassador to Israel. And by the way, I’m the son of a US Ambassador, so I have some sense — not an expert, obviously — but I have some sense of how this works. And I think that the US Ambassador has discretion to send somebody from his office to the airport to accompany someone in. I think that’s right. And if it’s not right, tell me what law you’re talking about, what legal reason you’re talking about that would prevent that. And now you’re sending me over to a government official who’s been calling me a Nazi. That’s the person in charge of getting us to the embassy. What is going on here?”

And the embassy spokesman, who’s totally nice, said, “Well, this was the decision of someone called David Brownstein. He’s the DCM, the number two guy in the embassy.” And I said, “Well, put him on a text exchange. What is going on here?” And so Brownstein got on and didn’t answer the question, but basically said, “Well, okay, let’s just do the interview at the airport, in the diplomatic reception area at the airport.”

I said, we’re going to be flying in from Europe and we had to be in and out really quickly. So at great expense we chartered a plane, which I never do because I’m cheap, but we did.

Flight Information and a Disturbing Refusal

And so then I said to them, “Okay, I want to send you the flight information, tail number, flight number, route, and I want you to pass that on to the Israeli military, just so they don’t mistake us for an Iranian drone or something.” I mean, not to be paranoid, but again, this is probably the most violent country in the world. Israel. Is there a country in the world where a higher percentage of the population has held a gun or shot someone? I mean, I don’t know the answer, but this is a country famously waging a seven-front war with all of its neighbors.

This is also the country that bombed the USS Liberty — and we know from NSA intercepts that it was an American ship. So just send the military our flight information, and we can all just sort of know it’s on the record and we can all calm down a little bit.

No. The US Embassy said, “No, your flight is not a matter of concern to the Israeli military.”

I said, “Okay, now you’re making me uncomfortable. Isn’t the airspace of Israel the purview of the Israeli military? Aren’t they in charge of maintaining the integrity of their airspace? When you fly over the country of Israel, or any country, its military keeps track of you because that’s their job. So why wouldn’t you send our flight information to the Israeli military? You’re making me nervous.”

I sent this exchange — I took a screenshot of it — and sent it to a bunch of people, including in the US Government, because I’m not a paranoid person and I’m not a jumpy person. I said, “Is this weird behavior?” And all of them said yes, it’s really weird behavior.

So I got pretty aggressive and just said, “Look, you’ve got to do this.” And they, to their credit, got back to us and said, “Yes, we will do that.” But I just thought that was completely bizarre and, by the way, menacing.

Netanyahu’s Threats and the Attempt to Meet

Now, at the same time — and I think this is relevant, certainly it goes to motive — I was attempting to set up a meeting, as I have been for the past three months, with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, who I’ve dealt with a lot in the past and who denounced me as a Nazi in public, a “member of the Woke Reichstag.”

And why was I trying to do that? Not an interview. I knew he wouldn’t sit for an interview, but I wanted just to meet with him in person. One, to show that I’m willing to go to Israel. I don’t hate Israel as a country. But two, just to say directly to him, “This is bad. This should be de-escalated. This kind of rhetoric doesn’t help anybody. Calling me specifically a Nazi and an anti-Semite when you know that I’m not.” And by the way, if I was, I would just admit it. I’ve said many times I think anti-Semitism is immoral. It’s against my religion, just as hating any group on the basis of their bloodline is immoral.

I really pushed hard for this meeting and I called a lot of people who know him and who are in regular contact with him. In fact, I went to go see some of those people directly. “Please, can you help me get a sit-down for five minutes with Benjamin Netanyahu?” And I probably called or met with six, seven, eight, maybe more people on this question. People in official capacities, people in the Israeli government. I know a number of people in the Israeli government, people in Israel, a friend of mine in California who knows him. I mean, I really, really tried.

And I did so for two reasons. One, because there was a threat to my family. The Israeli government and Netanyahu himself tried to punish two members of my family. I won’t be more specific, but actually punish two members of my family because he, as he has said in public many times, believes in blood guilt. Amalek. When someone commits a crime against you, you punish not just him, but his family, his bloodline. There’s no idea that’s less Western than that, more anti-Christian than that. Christians reject that. Netanyahu doesn’t. That’s why he’s talking about Amalek. And he was going after my family, literally. So I felt very threatened by that.

But moreover, I think it’s bad for my country to have people using that kind of language. “Round him up, bring them to the camps, gas chambers, Nazis, anti-Semitism.” It scares the heck out of people. It makes people crazy and hysterical. And certainly in my case, none of that is true. I hate collective punishment. I hate attacking people on the basis of their bloodline. I hate anti-Semitism and anti-white racism and all of this, or any kind of racism, period. And I’ve said that a lot.

So using that kind of language against someone who is not fundamentally your enemy — who just, in my case, wants Christians in areas controlled by Israel to be treated with dignity, to have rights, and doesn’t want the US government involved in a regime change war with Iran — those are my priorities, and I’ve said them out loud. I have no secret agenda.

So to attack me as a Nazi for saying that suggests a total unwillingness to compromise. Anyone who doesn’t agree with us 100% must be destroyed. His family must be attacked. And must be written off as a Nazi. Well, when you do that, it makes people hysterical. It increases the temperature to a point that someone’s going to get hurt if you keep talking that way. And it’s just bad. It’s bad for the United States. It’s bad for the world.

The National Conservatism Conference Rebuff

So I wanted to deliver that message. I finally wound up talking to a guy called Yoram Hazony, who is an Israeli who famously organizes the American Conservative National Conservatism Conferences. And I said to him, “Look, you’re having a National Conservatism Conference in Jerusalem this summer. You asked me to speak at the first National Conservatism Conference in the United States, and I did. Obviously, I believe in national conservatism. America First. I think every nation should put its own people first. That’s why you have governments. And I would like to speak at this one. And moreover, I would like you to ask your friend Benjamin Netanyahu to meet with me.”

And we had this sort of long back and forth, and it was, “No, you cannot speak at the National Conservatism Conference because you’re an anti-Semite.”

“No, I’m not,” I said.

“Yes, you are,” he said.

And I said, “Well, I really would like to speak to Bibi to kind of de-escalate this.”

And he said, “It would not be in his political interest to meet with you” — almost verbatim what he said — “therefore, no.”

So then I realized you’re dealing with people who are unreasonable, who are inflexible, who are, in fact, fanatical. And then add to that, of course, that my tax dollars are paying them. It was all pretty distressing.

Arriving in Israel: The Interview Setting

So that was the backdrop behind our very brief and highly intense trip to Israel. We showed up on Wednesday, flew in from Europe again at great expense, and showed up at the diplomatic terminal at Ben Gurion Airport, where this interview was going to take place, which is bizarre in itself.

Filthy building. The windows are so dirty in the terminal, you can’t see out them, barely. There’s exposed drywall. The whole thing is depressing and grim. There’s litter outside. What is this? This is the diplomatic terminal in Israel. I thought that was very strange, having been in a lot of diplomatic terminals. I’ve never seen a rattier one.

We go in and Huckabee’s there. And of course he’s totally friendly, as he always is. Very, very friendly guy and cheerful. And we sort of chat, and the whole place is filled with these guys in T-shirts, thuggish-looking guys in T-shirts who are some kind of security.

What the Interview Revealed

So we do the interview. You’re about to watch it. It’s very long, at about two and a half hours. And I try my hardest to be friendly. I think I kind of succeeded. You can judge for yourself.

But I really got the sense — and again, you can decide as you watch it — that Huckabee was not well able to answer any of the questions, but also not really in charge. He really gave the feeling of a guy sort of trying his best to repeat the talking points, but very constrained, like unable to say certain things. Not because those things might harm the interest of the US government — he was happy to attack, for example, the US military and say they’re more brutal than the Israeli military — but unwilling to say certain things because they might reflect poorly on the Israeli government.

And you sort of think about this for a second, and you’re like, wait, you’re the US Ambassador. You’re our representative to a foreign country. Why is your red line criticism of that country? Shouldn’t you be representing us? And it was very obvious he was representing the Israelis.

The Airport Interrogation

Obvious. And again, you can judge for yourself. But anyway, so we do this interview. It was cordial, and at the end, we’re set to fly out. We have a time, we have to get out. And the plane is sitting right outside and we’re ready to go. And for some reason, the Israelis still have our passports. There are five of us there and four of us are flying out on this plane. One’s flying out commercial with our gear.

So my business partner and I are sort of standing there. We’ve never left the airport, never went anywhere. But our two producers had spent the night before in Tel Aviv. And they’re called into rooms and given the third degree. Now, keep in mind, they’re about to get on a plane and leave. In fact, we’re late. We have to get out of there. We have a slot to get out, and security, whoever this is, won’t let them go.

So I don’t really know what’s going on at this point. I’m like, where are our guys? We got to get out of here. So one of them comes out and he says, “That was the weirdest experience in my life. They asked me questions about the interview. Who did you speak to?” Keep in mind, this was like eight feet from where we did the interview. “Well, the U.S. Ambassador, Mike Huckabee.” “What did you talk about? Why did you ask those questions? Was it a hostile interview?”

Of course, everything in the diplomatic terminal is taped. Everything in Israel is taped. It’s a police state, it’s a surveillance state. Obviously, you go to Israel, they put software on your phone. Everybody knows this. They’re constantly spying on you, more than probably any other country. And so they know the answers to these questions.

But they’re asking my producer, “Where do you work? How many people work there? Do you go to the office? Where is the office? What are their names?” They’re doing an intel op and humiliation exercise on my producer. This isn’t security. We’re leaving right now. And they’re holding his passport. The interrogator is holding the passport in his hand as he’s asking these questions.

So he’s telling me this, and I said, “This is the most outrageous thing I’ve ever heard.” Huckabee’s gone by this point. You’re an American citizen who’s just had a conversation with the U.S. Ambassador and some thug is demanding details of that conversation. I hope you didn’t answer. And he’s like, “No, I didn’t.”

Meanwhile, our last guy, the youngest man who was traveling with us, our last producer, is still in a room being questioned. So I pull over one of the guys and said, “We’ve got to get out of here. I don’t know what this is about. It’s outrageous, and there’s nothing I can do at this point, but we’ve got to go.”

And this woman comes up to me and says, “Look, let’s just go. We’re going to bring you to the plane and he’ll come later.” I said, “No, it’s my producer. He’s being interrogated, asked totally over the top, fully inappropriate questions that have nothing to do with security at all. Pull up your website, show us your text exchanges with other people on your staff. What are your politics like? And again, what did you say to the U.S. Ambassador and what did he say back to you?”

Those are not relevant questions if you’re trying to keep your country secure. Those are intel questions, and they’re over the top. And I said, “I want this guy out now. Let’s go. We’ve got to go.” And they said, “No, no, just leave him here. We’ll bring him to the plane later.” Twice they told me that — just leave your guy behind. No, I don’t think so.

The Aftermath and Huckabee’s Response

So I was enraged by this. We get on the plane, and we get a text from a reporter who somehow knew that this had happened. I have no idea how. I had no interest in publicizing it. Actually, there was a long trail that showed that the U.S. Embassy had been coordinating against us in a public relations battle before we even got there. They were leaking that we demanded to do the interview at the airport because we were afraid to go into Israel. That we’re cowards.

Okay. We’re cowards, right? And so I just said to the reporter by text, “They pulled my guys into a room, interrogating them. This is outrageous,” et cetera, et cetera.

The interesting thing is I never heard from Huckabee or anybody to this moment from the U.S. Embassy about what security did to my producers. They didn’t ask us, and instead, Huckabee went out and called me a liar. So it raises again the question — who exactly is Huckabee working for?

We’re American citizens in a foreign country. He’s our ambassador. He represents our country. We pay his salary. But he’s taking the side of the foreign government without even calling to say, “Hey, what happened to you at the airport? Did you get hassled? Did your guys get hassled?” No, he just immediately repeats their lies without even consulting us.

So what are we looking at here? We’re looking at the reality, which is if you’re an American in Israel, you can be certain that your government will take the side of the Israeli government and not your side. And really, is that so different from the experience of Americans in the United States? Can you be sure that your government will take your side over the Israeli government? No, of course not. They will always take the Israeli government’s side over yours.

And that’s the core problem. Even if you support a war with Iran, you still have a fair expectation that your government — because it is yours, you pay for it, it exists to serve you and for no other reason — will take your side against a foreign government. But the daily lived reality, the obvious truth visible to every single American, is that the opposite is reality.

In fact, if you criticize Israel in your country, your government will work to censor you. If there’s a standoff between you and Bibi, you know whose side your government’s going to take? Bibi’s side. That is not sustainable. That is too humiliating. It’s too clearly an inversion of the natural order. Your government exists for you, not for a foreign government. But that’s not how we live in this country or in Israel. So that’s what we learned.

The Surveillance Tape Propaganda

And one last thing. The Israelis apparently went — probably with the help of Mike Huckabee — to the surveillance tape inside the diplomatic terminal and pulled some clip, of course getting all their little bots online to promote it, of me with my arm around somebody, to show that actually I’m lying about what happened.

That person was our driver who drove us from the plane to the terminal — a short drive. Very nice guy, good guy, Israeli guy. And right when we arrived, he said, “Could I get a picture?” Of course. He’s a nice man. So I just put my arm around him and took a picture. That’s what that is. That was before the interview. It was before our producers were hassled by the thugs and asked ridiculous questions. It was before any of this happened. So that’s just another installment of the propaganda war. Thought we’d give you the backstory on that.

The Interview with Ambassador Mike Huckabee

TUCKER CARLSON: Ambassador, thank you very much for having us, for inviting me. I was grateful to be invited. I don’t like all the name calling. I’ve engaged in some of it. I want to apologize for that. But in general, I don’t think people should be going immediately to motive, calling each other Nazis or anti-Semites. I said I hate the Christian Zionists. I lost control of myself, of course.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Of course.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t. I’ve apologized for that. I have problems with my anger. And so I just want to apologize to you since you are a Christian Zionist.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You and I have known each other for over 30 years.

TUCKER CARLSON: Over 30 years. That is totally true.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Back when you were in Little Rock. So yes, it’s why I wanted us to have a conversation — talk to each other and not about each other. And I appreciate very much your coming here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. And I’m only staying a couple of hours, unfortunately, because I kind of shoehorned this in. But I hope that I will be back soon because I want to. I actually like — despite what you may hear — I actually like the country. I’ve been here a lot, and there are a lot of things I love about it, and I want to talk to people in it for, like, a week and get a better sense of it.

So I want to ask you — everyone I’ve talked to in preparation for this has said the same thing. Jonathan Pollard. I’m just going to show the name to you and have you explain.

Jonathan Pollard

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m glad you asked. Interestingly, there’s been a lot of things about it. You’re the first person who has asked me about it, which I find amazing. So I’m glad you did.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah. The very first person.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s better to hear it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Sure. I met Jonathan Pollard two times. Once I was making a speech in Jerusalem — this has been a few years ago. His wife was still alive at the time, and he was there, and someone introduced me to him and his wife. I said hello to them. That was it. “Hi, nice to meet you, Esther,” his wife. And that was it. I went and made my speech and I left.

Later, his wife passed away here in Israel, and I sent him a note and just said, “I’m sorry to hear about your wife. I remember meeting her at the hotel.” He then asked if he could come and see me. He wanted to come and thank me for being kind to him. He came to the embassy. I think we met for maybe 30 minutes. We had a nice, pleasant visit.

The funny thing was the New York Times reported that it was a secret meeting. Tucker, if you’ve ever been to the U.S. Embassy, you would know there’s no such thing as a secret meeting at the U.S. Embassy. There are cameras everywhere. You walk through Marines, you walk through security, you walk through the front office, and there’s a dozen or more people that are going to check you out when you come. And before you get there, you’re going to have to give us your passport information. You’re going to have to be vetted and screened and all of this. So the idea that it was secret was ludicrous.

The whole idea is, look, Jonathan Pollard did something that was terribly wrong. He sold secrets. He shouldn’t have done it. He was sentenced to — I think — more than 30 years, but he spent 30 years in prison. Most people convicted of something similar, which was one count, I believe, would have spent two to four years, but he spent 30. I don’t have a problem with him spending 30 because I think what he did was despicable. I’m not defending anything about what he did.

But even people like the former director of the CIA, and a number of senators on the Senate Intel Committee, said that he should be allowed to leave and move to Israel if he wanted to. So to me, it was not as big a deal that I had this basically courtesy meeting. He wanted to thank me for being nice to him when his wife died. That’s pretty much the story.

The Pollard Meeting and Questions of Loyalty

TUCKER CARLSON: I advocated for his release when you ran for — I remember it in 2011, long before he had served 30 years. And I agree with you that there are a lot of people languishing in prison in our country, and in many countries, for longer periods than they deserve. And I think it’s a Christian impulse to want to see them free.

But this was the greatest traitor in modern American history who sold our battle plans — sold our battle plans against the Soviet Union, our main enemy in the Cold War — to the Israeli government, which, according to our Reagan CIA Director Bill Casey, then gave them to the Soviet Union. So this was the most profound betrayal of the United States in my lifetime. Why advocate for that guy’s release before he serves his full sentence?

MIKE HUCKABEE: If that were the case in 2011, it would have been because I had a number of friends that suggested that he had more than served his time and he didn’t want to live in the US anymore. He wanted to live in Israel. But my association with him — again, I had never met him until I met him in Jerusalem at a hotel. That was the first time I had ever encountered him.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m friends with a million bad people, or I’ve talked to a million bad —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m sitting here with you. I mean, come on.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, she’s the same with tax collectors.

MIKE HUCKABEE: So I —

TUCKER CARLSON: Trust me, I am. Do not judge people who are friends with, or know, or enjoy the company of immoral people, because it’s not an endorsement of their immoral behavior.

Pollard is different, I think. Once you become US Ambassador — the representative of the President of the United States in a foreign country — and then you invite not only the most damaging betrayer in our lifetimes, but also a guy who continues to advocate for betrayal. He gave an interview, as I know you know, in 2021, to Israeli media in which he said, “I would encourage Jewish Americans with security clearances to spy for Mossad against their own country, the United States,” because — and I’m pretty much quoting him — “all Jews should have dual loyalty.” That’s not repentance. That’s not someone who feels bad about what he did. That’s someone who’s encouraging American Jews to betray their country. That’s pretty heavy, don’t you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Oh, I do, and I disagree with that wholeheartedly. Let’s remember it was President Trump who probably facilitated his departure. And I’m certainly supportive of President Trump. I think you are.

TUCKER CARLSON: Pollard’s not. He called him a madman after your meeting.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s why I say Pollard is not, for me, the real issue. It was the fact that he did something that was despicable. I’m not denying that. Of course he did. And he paid dearly for it — 30 years in prison. And he should have. That’s what he should have done. No question about it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But why meet with him in the US Embassy? Your colleagues said they were shocked.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Who were the colleagues that said they were shocked?

TUCKER CARLSON: Quoted on background in the New York Times. I think the meeting was in August. This could all be fake — that’s why I’m asking you.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, the same New York Times said it was a secret meeting. And I’m telling you, there’s no such thing as a secret meeting in the US Embassy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you see why the US Ambassador hosting a convicted betrayer of his own country — who’s encouraging Americans to continue to betray their country — would seem shocking?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I would say that it wasn’t — you make it sound like I’m hosting a meeting. I simply met with him. I meet with people all the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: You can just walk in without a —

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, they have to have an appointment. Of course they do.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, so it is hosting him then, I think.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I don’t know if it was hosting, but he was certainly able to come to the US Embassy to have a meeting at his request. And frankly, I don’t regret it. I met with a lot of people over the course of the time I’ve been here, and we’ll meet with a lot more. That’s it.

Accused Child Molesters Sheltered in Israel

TUCKER CARLSON: There have been Americans in prison in Israel. There have also been — and there continue to be — dozens and dozens of sex offenders, accused sex offenders from the United States, who fled to Israel. Including one recently, an Israeli government official who was caught trying to molest a 15-year-old girl and fled to Israel and is not going back to the United States to stand charges for attempted molestation of a child. Have you advocated for the Israeli government to return him to the United States?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not familiar with that case. It has not come to us at the embassy, so I’m not aware. Is this the person in Nevada?

TUCKER CARLSON: That is correct.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: I heard about it in Clark County.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I heard about it through open source media. It was never something that was presented to us. But I would have no problem with him being extradited back to the US.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re the President’s and our country’s representative in the state of Israel. So I think it would fall to you to advocate with your friend the Prime Minister to say, “Wait a second, we have a very close relationship. We’re obviously the single largest source of outside funding for this country. How can you take an accused child molester and shield him from American justice? Send him back to the United States.” Have you ever had that conversation?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, because the Prime Minister would not be the proper person.

TUCKER CARLSON: That may be right.

MIKE HUCKABEE: In Israel — pardon my ignorance — that would deal with an extradition. It would go through their court system. And so the Prime Minister is separate, very similar to what we have in the US where there is a separation of powers. So it would go through something other than the Prime Minister.

TUCKER CARLSON: Have you advocated to the courts, to judges, to anybody in the Israeli justice system?

MIKE HUCKABEE: There has never been a request for me to engage in that. I would be happy to do it if the White House sent a message to me. I do work for the President. I serve at his pleasure. If anyone at the White House were to say to me, “Would you please go and make a case for it?” But probably if that were to happen, it wouldn’t come through the embassy as much as it would likely come from the Department of Justice in DC. They would make the request. They might involve us, but they very likely would not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Does it seem strange to you that people accused of child molestation in the United States are allowed to have refuge within the borders of our closest ally? That doesn’t make sense to me.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I would say that if you’ve —

TUCKER CARLSON: Molested an American child, shouldn’t you be required —

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s an allegation. Let’s be clear. One of the things about our system of jurisprudence — you’re innocent until you’re proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So if the charges are there, should he be extradited? I would say so.

TUCKER CARLSON: The charges are there, yeah.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay, so they should be. But that’s a Justice Department decision and they’re the ones who should be pursuing it. To my knowledge, they have it. They certainly haven’t engaged the US Embassy over it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would the Israeli government harbor fugitives from justice in the United States? There are dozens and dozens. In fact, there’s an Israeli group that keeps track of them — a dedicated Jewish Israeli group dedicated to combating the molestation of children — and they keep a long list. Anyone can look it up, and I would —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Tucker, I hope you’re not saying that you think the Israelis support the molestation of children.

TUCKER CARLSON: Obviously I’m not saying that. I’m saying that the Israeli government allows — shields — accused child molesters from justice in the United States.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not sure I could say that that’s something that is provable. I don’t know. But I am not aware that the Israeli government is shielding people.

The Case of the Accused Israeli Cybersecurity Official

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, and I just want to make sure that I pronounce this man’s name correctly. It’s Tom Alexandrovich, I believe. He is an Israeli cybersecurity official who was at a conference in Las Vegas last year and was caught up in a sting designed to catch people soliciting sex from children. He was one of a number of people arrested for this. He was arraigned and charged, and then two days later he fled to Israel and did his first hearing by Zoom. He was allowed, for some reason, to leave for a foreign country having already been charged for attempted molestation of a child. And he remains there now.

There have been many news stories about this, and I just wonder if you would ask the Israeli government to put him on a plane and send him back to face justice for attempting to molest an American child.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It —

TUCKER CARLSON: It doesn’t seem complicated.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, I wouldn’t mind doing that. But I want to find out if the Justice Department in the US has already sought to extradite him. Is there anything in process? I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why wouldn’t they seek to extradite?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have no idea. That’s a question for the Justice Department.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not many questions for the Justice Department. Like, why are millions of Epstein files still classified? Why do you think that is?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have no idea. I haven’t kept up with that. I’ve never met the man. I don’t know him.

TUCKER CARLSON: You haven’t kept up with the Epstein disclosures?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I mean, only from a distance. I’m 6,000 miles away from DC these days. There’s so much —

Israeli Officials and the Epstein Connection

TUCKER CARLSON: The current President of Israel — President Herzog, who I know you know very well, apparently — was at Epstein Island. That’s what it says in the disclosures. And of course we know that the former Prime Minister Ehud Barak was living on and off at Epstein’s house. He’s still living. High-level Israeli officials are directly implicated in Epstein’s life, if not his crimes. So I would think that you’d be following this.

The Epstein Files and Israel

MIKE HUCKABEE: Only I was not aware that there was any connection with President Herzog. I would be surprised to hear that. And I knew there was about the former Prime Minister who apparently had a lot —

TUCKER CARLSON: — of dealings with Epstein, business dealings. And by the way, I’m not alleging anything, but I mean, it’s yes, in the Epstein files. And I don’t know that I’ve heard the current President of Israel respond to it, but he is listed as a visitor to Pedo Island, so that’s kind of a big deal.

I wonder, considering there are so many suggestions in the files, as I’m sure you know, of sexual abuse. And given that Jeffrey Epstein was a convicted sex offender, I wonder why the administration you work for would be holding millions of files — which I believe belong to the public — hidden for, quote, “national security reasons.” What would those national security reasons be, do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Honestly, I think you’ve probably got more access to the White House sometimes than I do. You should ask them.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re the government official representing that —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — White House in Israel. And I represent the US in Israel, to the Israeli government, from the US government. But honestly, nobody has presented that to us. Well, now that you know the dynamic situation here — I don’t know if you know that or not — but there’s a lot going on in this part of the world, and frankly, that has not been a top line item.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re surprised to hear that the current President of Israel, whom you know, is listed as a visitor to Pedo —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — Island. Had never heard that. Never heard it even in the Israeli press.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you going to ask him next time you see him?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’ll be happy to. I talk to him almost every week.

TUCKER CARLSON: I guess what I’m asking is not simply as a representative of my government or a high US official, but just as a man — a father, and a Christian. How could you resist saying, “Were you on Pedo Island with Jeffrey Epstein?”

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, if I’m not aware of it — and secondly, there are a lot of things that go on in the world. I don’t question every single person about every single thing that may be alleged. I understand all that, but this is the first I’ve ever heard of this. So why do you expect me to have knowledge of something like that?

Epstein’s Intelligence Connections

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, because you attacked me personally for suggesting that Jeffrey Epstein had ties to Mossad, and you said that you think he does — “Does” — what’s very clear. He does, from the past.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You think he does. From where do you get that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, the fact that he was in contact repeatedly with members of the Israeli government, including the current president and the former prime minister, and all kinds of Israeli intel-connected people. I’m not saying he worked for Mossad. I don’t think we know that. But there’s no question that he had extensive contact with CIA.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think you said it at a Turning Point event. Everybody knows Jeffrey Epstein.

TUCKER CARLSON: I said everyone thinks. And it turns out everyone was right —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — that he did have. I’m not sure everyone was right, or everyone thinks.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but you said that I was lying, and I don’t want to make this about —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think I said you were lying, Tucker. I don’t recall.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just saying, why don’t we release all the files, and then we don’t need to guess.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’ve got no problem with that. Go ahead.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, because you weighed in on it and said that this was not true. When of course I said there was no evidence — well, there’s quite a bit of evidence. But you haven’t apparently bothered to read any of the files. Is that what you’re saying?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have not read the Epstein files. Apparently you have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, they’re on the Internet.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But when you say that everybody knows that Jeffrey Epstein was a Mossad agent —

TUCKER CARLSON: I said everyone believes that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think everybody does. I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, everyone knows that he had contact with — and by the way, not just Israeli intelligence, American intelligence, which is much more distressing for me. I’m not Israeli —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m American.

TUCKER CARLSON: — I don’t want my government having any contact with someone like Jeffrey Epstein. So the shame —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I wouldn’t either. The shame is on the United —

TUCKER CARLSON: — States, as far as I’m concerned, just to be totally clear about that. Everyone’s very sensitive about the Israel connection, but not at all sensitive about the US connection, which I find very revealing. We should care about what our government does first, I think.

But since you weighed in on it and said there’s no evidence, I’m surprised that — since that evidence has been open to the public for a month, and since you’ve already weighed in publicly on this question — you’ve made no effort to evaluate that evidence. Why is that?

Calls for Transparency

MIKE HUCKABEE: I just told you. I was certainly not aware that there were some specific allegations. I knew about the former prime minister, but I don’t know him. I’m not sure I ever met him in my many times — you know, I’ve been to Israel over a hundred times since 1973. The first time I came here was July 1973. That’s almost 53 years of coming and going to this country. So I know the country well. I know a lot of people here, but I don’t know everything, and I don’t know everybody.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, and I can see your love for it, and I think that’s great. But I’m talking about the US government and its responsibility. There’s a lot of complaint about conspiracy theories, and everyone’s assigning motive. But there’s a way to end these conversations very quickly — with facts. And I’m highly confused by —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Have you brought this up to the President?

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, no. I don’t work for him.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’ve said this many times — you don’t work for him. But you go to the White House and you see people there. You and J.D. Vance are very good friends. So have you brought this up to them?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because I have brought this up in public.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s not on my portfolio, but apparently it’s very strongly on your mind.

TUCKER CARLSON: It is a significant concern for me —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — should be for everybody. But if —

TUCKER CARLSON: — well, there is a charged child molester —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — but I’m saying, if you are very involved in the details of this —

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not.

MIKE HUCKABEE: — and you think it’s the US government that’s hiding and shielding somebody, then bring it up to the people that you personally —

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think that — I know it — because the Justice Department has said we have millions of documents we’re not releasing.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Why are they not releasing?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m asking you as a US government official.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, a government official at the embassy in Jerusalem — that has not one thing to do with the Justice Department and what they’re investigating on any given day, unless it involves — and I don’t want to argue or —

TUCKER CARLSON: — talk in circles. But you were the one who brought it up and said it’s absolutely not true.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I was only responding to what I’ve heard you say.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but now that you know there’s evidence, and we can settle this debate — you haven’t looked at the evidence, and you’re not pushing for the release of the total corpus of evidence. And I’m confused, because I want to believe that your goal is to get to the truth, and the fastest way to do that is by releasing the evidence. Don’t you think? You suggest that I —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — can release the evidence.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m suggesting you could call for it right now.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, fine — call for it. Let’s have it all open. I thought it was being all opened up.

TUCKER CARLSON: Once it’s open, I hope you’ll read it, because it’s really interesting. And then it puts to rest a lot of the debate and it ends the name calling, because we can say, “Here it is, right there.” And we don’t have to call people names — we can just assess the documents.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let me ask you — would you bring it up? I hope you will bring it up to people at the White House.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m bringing it up right now. And I just want to say this one last time — as the US Ambassador to Israel, I hope that you will make a formal request to the Israeli government to send every accused sex offender in this country back to the United States to face justice. And I don’t understand why that hasn’t been done. I’m confused.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, we’ll try to clear up all the confusion that we have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, if someone’s been accused of trying to molest a child, I think it’s —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — then certainly. And I’ll check with the Justice Department, because it is a DOJ issue, and it would be handled through DOJ — the US to the court systems in Israel. That’s how it would be handled.

TUCKER CARLSON: But the first step is the Israeli government saying, “Yes, we will allow you to extradite this person back.” The person is being shielded by the government. That’s why the person’s here. That’s why he fled here, so he wouldn’t have to stand trial for trying to molest a child.

Christian Zionism — Defining the Terms

I want to get to — as I said at the outset — I said something awful that I regret, that my wife barked at me about. I lashed out at Christian Zionists and evangelicals. And I just want to say again that I’m sorry. I’ve always liked them because they’re pro-life, and they’re also really nice people. So for the third time, I’m sorry that I said that.

I think part of my problem was I don’t understand the theology. And you are not a fake Baptist minister — you’re an actual minister. You had a church for many years. You’re an actual theologian. So, and I mean this with sincerity — I hear people say, “Those who bless Israel will be blessed.” I know it’s a reference to Genesis. I don’t understand the connection between that concept and modern Israel and the geopolitical world. And so I’m going to stand back —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — and let’s first define. Because, you know, from my days as a debater in high school and college, one of the things I knew — you didn’t start the debate till you define the terms.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let’s define the terms.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thank you.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What is a Christian Zionist? What does that mean to you? What does it mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. It’s the people who call me a Nazi for asking what Israel means. I mean, that’s kind of my —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But here’s the point. If you say a Christian Zionist is a person who has a brain virus and is guilty of heresy, that’s a pretty big charge.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know. I shouldn’t have made it. I made it out of anger and ignorance. So —

MIKE HUCKABEE: A Christian, I think we can agree, is somebody who follows Jesus Christ.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, believes in his death, burial, and resurrection, has repented of one’s sins, and has accepted him as one’s savior. Would that be fair? Now define “Zionist.” A Zionist simply means a person who believes that the Jewish people have a right to have a homeland where they have security and safety. Do you believe that the Jews have a right to live in Israel? That would be a Zionist. That’s all a Zionist is.

TUCKER CARLSON: I have a million questions about what all of those terms mean. But conceptually, I wish Israel no harm. I don’t want to see — I’m very —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I want them to have a place where they can live with safety.

Israel’s Right to Exist: A Biblical and Legal Framework

TUCKER CARLSON: I saw this recently in an extremely telling exchange between the Lieutenant Governor of Texas, who I know and I’ve always liked, and a woman I don’t know, never met, who’s on the Religious Liberty Commission or something. And she said, “I’m a Catholic, but I’m not a Zionist.” And they have this ferocious exchange. And he kept saying, and everyone on the panel seemed to keep saying, “You have to believe in Israel’s right to exist.” Which I’ve never kind of questioned, just for the record.

But it did raise two questions I think are really important, and I hope you’ll answer them. One is, where does that right come from?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I would say it comes from, essentially — you could say it comes from the Bible. I would say that it does. But it comes also from a long iteration of historical precedents, going to the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It comes from the League of Nations, 1927. It comes from the United Nations, 1947, the Declaration of Independence of the Israeli State in May of 1948.

They were immediately attacked. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1956. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1967 by five countries. They won the war. They were attacked again in 1973 in the Yom Kippur War. They won the war. The point is, does Israel have a right to exist? They also had wars in 1982 in Lebanon — there were two of those. They’ve had Lebanon again in 2006.

TUCKER CARLSON: I was there. No, I’m very familiar with the modern history of the state. Pretty familiar, I think.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But a Zionist simply means somebody who believes that Israel has a right to exist. Now the question is, do you believe Israel has a right to exist?

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I want Israel to exist. But I want to know what that means. Do other countries have a right to exist?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, they do exist.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do they have a right to exist? You keep saying Israel has a right to exist. And I want to know what other countries have.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They have a legal right, because every international body in the last 100 years has said the Jewish people have a right to their indigenous home. So that’s a legal right. Do they have a biblical right? I would say yes, but you may say they don’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I’m actually sincerely interested in finding out what you mean by a biblical right. But first, to the legal right — does any other country on the planet have the same right that Israel has to exist?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, you could say, does Jordan have a right to exist? When it was Transjordan and the British came and divided up the Middle East — they gave some land to Jordanians, some land to the Saudis, some land to various Middle Eastern countries, and it was all carved up. And the French gave Lebanon its right to exist. Do they have a right to exist?

TUCKER CARLSON: Do they?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, why not?

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so that’s my point. So every country —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Does the US have a right to exist?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m asking you.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay. And I’m telling you I think the US has a right to exist. We’re in Israel now talking. But does the US have a right to exist? Does anyone question whether we have a right to exist?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course, I’m for America.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I —

TUCKER CARLSON: So every current country on the map has the same right to exist that Israel has? Is that what you’re saying?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think what we’re saying is that when a country has established itself, is following international law, and has been deemed by numerous bodies to be indigenous to its homeland — as Israel is — this is its homeland. It goes back 3,800 years to the time of Abraham. It’s not that —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, now I’m getting —

MIKE HUCKABEE: The Jewish people just showed up here in 1948 and said, “We’re going to have some land.”

The Legal vs. Biblical Framework for Israel’s Legitimacy

TUCKER CARLSON: Hold on. Those are two different tracks, and I just want to make sure that we separate them so I understand each one separately. So you’re saying there’s the modern legal framework, and a country that abides by international law has a right to exist.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I would say that that is a part of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Would the inverse be true? That a country that does not abide by international law forfeits its right to exist?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Not necessarily, if it has the capacity to stay and make its case known. But there have been Jewish people in this land for 3,800 years.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. But you’re saying as the modern nation state — with borders and a military and a Knesset and all the trappings of a modern country, all of which I support — that country has the same right as every country on the planet to exist because it does exist? Is that what you’re saying? I’m just trying to understand the concept here.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I think what we’re trying to get to is Christian Zionism. And you’ve taken this way off the road here.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know that I have.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t need to —

TUCKER CARLSON: Christian Zionism is a separate thing. But I just keep hearing people say Zionism is the belief —

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s the fundamental argument that’s going on. Does Israel have a right to live in their indigenous, ancient, historical land — a land that has been affirmed throughout international organizations, a land that has direct ties to the Jewish people?

TUCKER CARLSON: I just want to know if this is a universal principle. I guess that’s what I’m getting at. Because if it’s not, then it’s meaningless to me. Because as a Christian, I believe in universal principle. Something is right for everyone or it’s wrong for everyone. We don’t believe in special cases.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But here’s that question. If the Jews didn’t have this land, would the Jews have a right to any land?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I’m not attacking the Jews. I’m asking if this applies to every people in every nation. Does every nation have the same right to its own homeland, to its own physical land, that you say Israel does?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I feel like we’re in a rabbit hole here.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, I think it’s a very straightforward question. Does that right extend to other countries?

MIKE HUCKABEE: But the most important thing that is going on in our culture right now is whether or not the people that are yelling in the streets, “From the river to the sea” — whether that’s a legitimate point of view, to say that there should not be a Jewish homeland.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’ll never hear me say that. I just want to know —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I know you haven’t said it, but that’s the argument.

The Broader Question: Does the Principle Apply Universally?

TUCKER CARLSON: One of the arguments going on globally — and the United States, excuse me, has a pretty narrow view, I would say, in our media culture of what’s happening around the world — there are plenty of countries having this debate.

Stonehenge is a lot older than the First Temple in Israel, and it was built by the same people who live there now. It’s the same people, and they are being pushed off their island and outnumbered by people from other places. And so in Great Britain, in Ireland — which is also a country with a nation of people, a race, if you will, that is being displaced, replaced —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Who are they being replaced by?

TUCKER CARLSON: Immigrants.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: From other places.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I just wanted to clarify because I was one of the —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, just as a demographic matter, you can look at the numbers. It’s not controversial. Just look at the numbers. They’ll be a minority in their own country, and their people have been there longer than Jews have been in Israel. And so they’re having this debate too. That’s all I’m saying. And lots of places are having this debate.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Sure.

TUCKER CARLSON: So does that principle apply to everyone, or is it specific just to Israel?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think it applies specifically to Israel. It applies to anyone who can prove that they have some connection to the land, connection to the history, and connection to international law. But Israel, I think, does bring up international law.

But let me finish this, because here’s the point. We’re talking about Christian Zionism — the idea that, as a Christian, I believe in both the Old and the New Testament. Why wouldn’t I? I’m a person of the book. There are 80 million evangelical Christians in the United States. What makes us who we are is our adherence to the scripture, our belief that the Bible — all of it, not part of it, but all of it — is the word of the living God.

So if I believe in the Old and the New Testament, I do believe that there is a very specific call to the Jewish people that started with Abraham. And He called them out of what is now modern-day Iraq, said, “Come where I send you.” He came. This is the land. Genesis 12:3. He says, “I will bless those who bless you, curse those who curse you.” In Genesis 17, He looks out over the world and says, “This is where I’m giving you the land.”

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it’s —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Since that time, there have been people living in this land connected to that moment of history. So there is a historical connection.

The Biblical Connection and International Law

TUCKER CARLSON: You’ve said that. And I want to ask you what that means a little more specifically, if that’s okay. But first, let me just say that you could say the same thing of Britons who’ve been in their land even longer.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Does anyone try to tell the Brits they can’t live there anymore?

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What’s happening is they are saying that to the Jews.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but I just wonder if you would extend the same sympathy or the same principle — you don’t — you seem like you think I’m trying to trap you. I’m not at all trying to trap you. It’d be as simple as saying native —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’ve got no problem with the native Brits having their land, having that right. But I don’t know that there is a biblical connection for the Brits.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. But I would say so that’s what it comes down to —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Take that off the table, and I think there’s still a basis for the Jews having this little bitty strip of real estate.

TUCKER CARLSON: And it is. I’m not even arguing with you at all. I’m just trying to understand what it is that you’re saying, because it’s not obvious to me. And maybe it’s an IQ problem, but I’m having trouble understanding this.

But let me just go back and clarify one thing. You’ve brought up international law at least twice, maybe three times, as a basis for Israel’s legitimacy. If Israel was out of compliance with international law, whatever that is, would it be less legitimate?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Depends on if the law and the way it’s applied is legitimate.

TUCKER CARLSON: There —

MIKE HUCKABEE: There are some applications of so-called international law that are not legitimate. Look at the ICC or the ICJ.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Utterly ridiculous. One of the reasons I’m so grateful President Trump and Secretary Rubio are pushing hard to get rid of the ICC and the ICJ is because they have become rogue organizations that are no longer really about an equal application of law and justice.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know enough about it to say if that’s true or not. But I’m just interested that you yourself appealed to international law as a basis of Israel’s —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, what I’m looking at is the whole of the last 100 years, the —

TUCKER CARLSON: The Balfour Declaration is not exactly international law, by the way. It was a letter.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Maybe, maybe not law, but it was a declaration — an assumption and a declaration that was done by Lord Balfour in Great Britain. At that time, this land was under the British Mandate. And he said the Jews should have the land that was theirs from 3,800 years ago. It was as simple as that.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I’m not debating that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m just —

TUCKER CARLSON: It was not international law. It was a colonial power saying, “Okay —”

The Biblical Covenant and the Question of Jewish Identity

MIKE HUCKABEE: …but then later it was under the League of Nations, under the United Nations, and then because of the victories that Israel had against those who tried to annihilate them. And it wasn’t just that they were trying to take a little piece of their land. They tried to annihilate them. And there is still to this day the shouts of “from the river to the sea.” And Tucker, that means only one thing. Not the shrinking of Israel, but the annihilation of Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think that’s different. I don’t think you can say that you know what it means, actually, because you don’t know what’s in people’s hearts. So why don’t we just deal with the facts? Maybe some people mean it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I know it’s in their mouths. I know it’s in their minds.

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, you’ll never hear me say that. What you will hear me say is I’m confused by what the definitions are. So let’s go through this. You’ve appealed to Genesis. Genesis 15 says it’s Abram — it’s pre-Abraham, it’s Abram — receives from God the news that his descendants will inherit the land. And you tell me, as the theologian, if I’m getting this wrong, but from the Euphrates to the Nile, I think. And that would include basically the entire Middle East. That would be the Levant. So that would be Israel, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. It would also be big parts of Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It would be.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, not sure it would go that far.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I mean, it would be a big piece of land. But here’s the point.

TUCKER CARLSON: It would be a lot of places that are now countries.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But this particular area that we’re talking about now — Israel is a land that God gave through Abraham to a people that he chose. It was a people, a place, and a purpose. We can look at it that way. Christian Zionism. I want to go back, because that’s where we started on this.

The Borders of the Promised Land

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not going to let you off on this, because you have said three times that God gave this land to this people. And so it is entirely fair for me, with respect, to ask — what land are you talking about? Because I just read Genesis 15, as I have many times, and that land, I think it says from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is once again basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews, or He didn’t. You’re saying He did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you’re appealing to Genesis. You’re saying that’s the original deed.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It would be fine if they took it all, but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here today.

TUCKER CARLSON: What would be fine? Well, it’s exactly what we’re talking about today.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But here’s what I don’t think you’re —

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it would be fine if the state of Israel took over all of it?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They don’t want to take it over. They’re not asking to take it over.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re saying that the reason Israel is legitimate — has this inherent right to exist — is in part because God gave it to his people. And I am going to the same Bible that you’re referring to and noticing that that is a huge piece of land. So if God gave them that land, then they have a right to take it, by your definition, unless I’m missing something.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think you’re missing something, because they’re not asking to go back and take all of that. But they are asking to at least keep the land that they now occupy, that they now live in, that they now own legitimately, and it is a safe haven for them.

TUCKER CARLSON: May I ask, though — because you’re explaining what Christian Zionism is and your theological beliefs — you just said it would be fine with you if the state of Israel took all of Syria, all of Lebanon.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s really not exactly what I’m trying —

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m asking, is that what you said? I thought that’s what you just said.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It was somewhat of a hyperbolic statement. If that’s what you feel like we’re talking about, but it isn’t. We’re talking about this land that Israel, the state of Israel, now lives in and wants to have peace in. They’re not trying to take over Jordan, they’re not trying to take over Syria, they’re not trying to take over Iraq or anywhere else. But they do want to protect their people, and they’re not trying to take over Lebanon.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re saying that as a religious man, as a Christian, a Christian Zionist, you agree with a lot of religious communities here in Israel that the justification for this country is theological. It’s a contract between God and his people. And I’m telling you that that contract includes a tract of land that is much larger than the current nation states.

MIKE HUCKABEE: So you may be a bigger Zionist than even the Jews who live in —

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m trying to understand the implications of your theology for geopolitics, because you’re saying that the present government of Israel has a moral right to take over what are now other people’s countries.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, I didn’t say that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then what are you saying?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m simply saying that the people who live in Israel, I think, have a right to have security, have safety. They have a right to be able to live in this land that they have a connection to for 3,800 years.

On Safety, Rights, and the Question of Legitimacy

TUCKER CARLSON: I told myself when I said a prayer that I would not get annoyed. But as someone who is the father of daughters, when I see child molesters hiding in Israel and escaping American justice, I think I have a right to safety in my country too. So you can understand that I think most people feel they have a right to safety. I do think Israel has a right to safety, and I hope that for them — and I’m sincere. But I’m an American, and I have a right to safety in my country too.

Of course you do, and I think so. But I just want to get to this point. If Israel were to say God gave us, in Genesis 15, all of Lebanon, all of Syria, all the way up to Iraq — would that be legitimate in your view?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think in this particular day and time they’re asking for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Would it be legitimate?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not sure that it would be.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why? Because you just said that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, because I think there is an understanding that the people of Israel today — now, if they end up getting attacked by all these places and they win that war and they take that land, then okay, that’s a whole other discussion. But you and I started talking about something simple: Christian Zionism.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it turns out it’s not simple. The core of Christian Zionism, you said — and I’m quoting you — is the understanding, the belief, the theological understanding that Jews have a moral and legal right. We went through the legal, the biblical, the moral — deriving from the biblical promises in our Bible, which we share with the Jewish people, the first part of the Old Testament — that it derives from God’s promise to the Jews.

And so I have two questions. What are the borders of that? And who are those people in 2025? And you’re not the first person I’ve asked, but you’re the most reasonable, most gentle, most theologically informed. So I’m really hoping for an answer.

The first question was the borders. I can’t get an answer on those borders, so I’m going to give up. But the second question is every bit as pressing — which is, who are the people? Who are the modern descendants? So we know, and I believe, and I agree with you as a Christian, that God promised this land from modern-day Iraq to modern-day Egypt to this people, the Jews — to Abram’s descendants, as it says in Genesis 15. Who are his descendants now? And how do we know who they are?

Who Are the Descendants of Abraham?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think they’re the Jews. And we know who they are because they’ve always been a Jewish people. There has been an unbroken line of Jewish people, and they’ve lived in this land for 3,800 years. Sometimes not very many of them, because they were chased out all over the world. They were hunted down. They were almost annihilated during the Holocaust. They came back. Tucker, they represent — you know how many Jews there are in the whole world —

TUCKER CARLSON: Please. I understand. First of all, the greatest genocide of Jews that no one ever mentions was by the Romans, where they were literally banned from Jerusalem for 500 years.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, of course.

TUCKER CARLSON: And it’s all awful. And I’m opposed to all of that. I’m opposed to mass killing of anybody, period. I mean it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I hope you agree on that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I believe that.

TUCKER CARLSON: My question is — and it’s not a bumper sticker answer, it’s a sincere question — how do we know? Because what you’re saying is that certain people have a title to a highly contested region. They own it in some deep sense. So I think it’s fair to ask, who are they and how do we know?

The current prime minister’s ancestors weren’t from here within recorded history. He has no deeds. Bibi Netanyahu, on one side, has family from Poland. They’re from Eastern Europe. So how do we know that he has a connection to the people whom God promised the land to — Abram’s descendants? How do we know that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, if you take the genealogies that come not only from the Old but the New Testament, you see that there is a historical connection through the entirety of the Old and the New Testament that details the Jewish connection to this land.

TUCKER CARLSON: Does that include Bibi’s family? How do we know that if his family scattered? But how do we know it’s the same people? Why is that crazy? If you say to me —

MIKE HUCKABEE: If they speak the same language, if they worship the same God, if they follow the same Bible, if they follow the same cultures and traditions — and they always pray “next year in Jerusalem,” and they pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they pray facing toward Jerusalem — does that not give you a little bit of a clue as to who they are?

TUCKER CARLSON: Let’s go through those things, because I would like to have a rational — this is the conversation I’ve wanted.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Bless you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thank you for doing this. Let’s just go through those things.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: So one of the things I admire most about Israel is they resurrected a dead language in 1948. Good for them.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, they really didn’t resurrect it — it was existent.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s not — but that’s a compliment. I’m not slightly —

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, no, no. But it is the first time in all of human history that a language has survived through this length of time. I would call it — you might not — but I would call it a miracle, one of many. That you can —

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it’s wonderful. As someone who loves language — Netanyahu’s parents did not speak Hebrew.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: They didn’t live in this region. The founders of this country were mostly secular. Some of them were avowed atheists. They were not praying for the peace of Jerusalem. They weren’t praying at all because they didn’t believe in God. There’s no genealogy linking their families to the people of this land 3,000 years ago. So how do we know — since they didn’t share a language, they didn’t share a religion, they had no religion whatsoever — how do we know that they had a right to come here from Eastern Europe and —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But they were scattered.

TUCKER CARLSON: — the land.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They were scattered to — they were scattered all over the world. There were many in Ethiopia. They were in Russia. They were in Poland. They were throughout Asia. Jews were all over the place. But they were still Jews. But they were still Jews.

The Question of Entitlement to the Land

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so then let me get to the nub of the question, since a lot is at stake. A lot of money is at stake. Land is very valuable. Israel has a lot of resources. By the way, if you’re accused of a crime, you can hide here — that’s a pretty good passport to have. So who’s entitled to it? I don’t understand. And you’re very discouraged in the United States from asking this question, for some reason. It’s a totally different rational —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not discouraged.

The Question of Jewish Identity and the Right to the Land

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re not discouraging. Others do. You’re like the only person I’ve had this conversation with. Others would be like, “Shut up, Nazi.” It’s a foundational question. Are you speaking of an ethnic group or a religious group?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I think for many people, it is religious. There are people who may not have a deep religious connection to Judaism, but they’re still Jews.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so it’s an ethnic category.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It is ethnic, but it is also religious. It is rooted in religion. You can’t take it out of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then how can an atheist —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I will tell you this. There are some people who say, “I’m Christian.” They never go to church, they never pray, they never read their Bible, they don’t tithe.

TUCKER CARLSON: But they’re not entitled to citizenship on the basis of that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They still call themselves Christians, even though they identify in that way.

TUCKER CARLSON: Here’s the difference. You’re saying that people who have this identification have a deed to a huge chunk of land on the Mediterranean. So it’s a right. You keep telling me it’s a right. And so it’s totally fair to say, if you come to my house and say, “I’ve got the title to your house,” I get to ask, “May I see it? Where’d you get it?”

And that’s exactly what happened here. People from Europe, Eastern Europe came here — in a lot of cases, atheists — and kicked out a lot of people who lived here.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, but they did not just throw people out.

TUCKER CARLSON: They bought a lot of land. There’s no question about that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They bought a lot of land, but —

TUCKER CARLSON: They also, in 1948, kicked out a lot of people. It was a war.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I agree.

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, I’m not wanting to re-litigate the history. I’m just saying it’s a fact — including a lot of Christians. A lot of Christians wound up fleeing, they lost their homes, and they’ve never been allowed back. And all of this was justified on the basis of this identity that forms the ticket to the right that you keep referring to.

So my question is very simple. I’m going to wait patiently for an answer. Does this right derive from religious affiliation or from genetics?

Religion, Ethnicity, and the Right of Return

MIKE HUCKABEE: I would say it’s both. But I would also say that when you said that Christians were kicked out, Tucker, Christianity is growing in Israel, and there is a big lie that goes out there. Let me finish this, because I keep hearing that Christians are really not treated well in Israel. That’s simply not true. That’s a lie.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, there are lots of different —

MIKE HUCKABEE: There were 34,000 Christians in Israel in 1948. There are 184,000 Christians here today.

TUCKER CARLSON: And by Israel, what are you counting?

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’re talking about the land.

TUCKER CARLSON: What territory are you counting? Are you counting Israel proper? Are you counting the West Bank as well, and Gaza?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I mean —

TUCKER CARLSON: When you say Israel, those numbers apply to what landmass?

MIKE HUCKABEE: It would be in Israel proper. There are 184,000. Now, I’ll tell you where Christians are not doing very well — they’re not doing very well in the Muslim-controlled countries. There’s almost no Christians in Qatar, for example, except those who live in the Christian ghetto, who are the service workers.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m sorry, look, I don’t want to argue with you, but there are many more Christians in Qatar than there are in Israel.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s not true.

TUCKER CARLSON: It actually is true. And I refer you to Wikipedia, Mr. Ambassador.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Wikipedia.

TUCKER CARLSON: I refer you to the government of Qatar, the government of Israel. These are verifiable facts. And I’m in Jordan, by the way.

MIKE HUCKABEE: The numbers are down in Jordan. In Syria, the numbers are down. In Lebanon, the numbers are down.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just telling you that there are about twice as many Christians —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But they live in an enclave. They are not native Qataris.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, we’re mixing so many different categories here. I’m just saying — I get things wrong all the time. You’ve just gotten something wrong, and I think it’s important to acknowledge it. There are many more Christians in Qatar than there are in Israel. Fact.

MIKE HUCKABEE: How many?

TUCKER CARLSON: Now you’ve caught me. I don’t know. I can look at my phone. But I was just there, and there are many more. Whatever the case, I just want to get to the point that forms the basis of this whole conversation — which is, who has a right to the land?

Defining the Basis of the Right to the Land

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said it’s a mixture of religion and ethnicity. Because as I noted — and you agree — many of the founders, maybe the majority of the founders of modern Israel, did not believe in God at all. So they were not religious Jews. They weren’t religious at all. They were atheists. They said they were atheists. I believe them. So that suggests it’s ethnic.

But it’s also true, as you well know — because there’s a famous court case about this — that ethnic Jews who convert to Christianity do not have the right of return. That was settled by the Israeli Supreme Court. I’m very confused. That would suggest it’s not ethnicity, because you invalidate your Jewishness by converting to Christianity.

MIKE HUCKABEE: There are a number of Messianic Jews who live in Israel. I’m aware of that.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re not contesting what I’m saying, because it’s a very famous court case.

MIKE HUCKABEE: The right of return has to do with your mother, your grandmother — it has to do with family ties, which is ethnic. Ethnicity is a big part of the right of return, to make aliyah, to come to Israel and live here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then if both of your parents are Jewish and you have an ethnic right to the land — you are one of Abram’s descendants — but you convert to Christianity, how is it that you don’t have the right to return?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m totally confused by that, but I know a number of people who have returned as Christians but have Jewish history.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you saying that Jews who convert to Christianity have a legal right to return?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I know that they do. When you say, do they have a right to return — it’s proven by their family history, their grandmother, their mother, and there are many aspects of that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve read it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I know that there are Jewish people who are Christian, and they came here, made aliyah, they had Jewish blood, Jewish history, they were Christian — Messianic — but they came here and they were welcomed here.

TUCKER CARLSON: And they were given full legal rights?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Absolutely.

TUCKER CARLSON: And a passport. So clearly it’s not true that you invalidate your right of return by converting to Christianity. That’s just false.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not aware of that. I know that there are a number of Christians here. I go to church with Christians every week here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. But do you have a right to come and say, “I am an ethnic Jew, even though I practice Christianity, therefore I have every bit as much right to move into a settlement in the West Bank, or into East Jerusalem, or anywhere I want — Galilee, anywhere — because I am returning to the land of my forefathers. I have a legal right in the state of Israel, even though I’ve converted to Christianity.” You’re saying that’s true?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m saying I know people who have done it. Now, can I tell you what the law specifically is? I’m not sure.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s really significant.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t have any Jewish roots, so I cannot quote you the law. If you want me to, I’ll look it up.

The Anti-Semitism Label and the Question of Genetic Identity

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it really matters, because you’re saying that people in the United States are being called anti-Semites — a lot of them, including me — because they somehow don’t believe that Israel has a right to this land.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you think Israel has a right to this land?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. You haven’t defined what the land is, and you haven’t defined who Israel is. So I really don’t know.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It is the land they’re living in now — the borders that they have.

TUCKER CARLSON: The borders are moving. The borders have moved in the last year.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What do you mean the borders have moved in the last —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, they are the 1967 borders. I’m including, you know, the —

MIKE HUCKABEE: West Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are the borders of Judea and Samaria?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, you basically take the Jordan River, and it’s west of the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, to the Lebanon border. And Israel did have control of the Sinai — they gave that to Egypt in 1979 in the peace agreement.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so whatever you call it — the land that was taken from Jordan in 1967, you call it Judea and Samaria. There’s a significance to that that I don’t fully understand.

MIKE HUCKABEE: 80% of the Bible happened in Judea and Samaria.

TUCKER CARLSON: We’ve also established that the Bible gives Jews the right to occupy the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. So I’m very confused by why we’ve shrunk the land.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Israel has shrunk the land. They have made that decision. That’s why they gave away —

TUCKER CARLSON: They gave away the Sinai.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’ve given away a lot of things.

TUCKER CARLSON: Abram’s descendants are the ones who have the right to this land, correct?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Why don’t we do genetic testing on everybody in the land and find out who Abram’s descendants are? It’s really simple. We’ve cracked the human genome. We can do that. Why don’t we do that? Would you be against doing that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have no idea what that would prove.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you mean? It would prove who Abram’s descendants are and who has a right to live here and who doesn’t, according to the theology that you yourself just explained. So I’m very confused as to why we don’t do that. If you believe the theology you’ve just explained to me, why wouldn’t we do that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Would we do that all over the world? And everybody would —

TUCKER CARLSON: This is the only country in the world that you’ve said has this covenant with God — that this people have a moral and legal right to the land.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What about people who convert to Judaism? Would they have a right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you’ve just —

MIKE HUCKABEE: There are people who convert to Judaism. You just told me they can make aliyah. They may not have —

TUCKER CARLSON: You told me moments ago — trying to keep track —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: That it doesn’t matter whether or not you believe in God, or whether or not you practice Torah Judaism or Rabbinic Judaism — which is something else that I don’t even fully understand. But it doesn’t matter whether you’re a “religious Jew” or not. What matters is that you are part of the Jewish people to whom God gave this land that extends from the Nile to the Euphrates.

And so if you believe that, wouldn’t you want to know with a burning passion who those people are? And because of science, we can now know who those people are. So why aren’t we finding out?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I guess you could propose a DNA test for everybody who comes here, everybody who lives here.

TUCKER CARLSON: The point is, I’m comfortable with secular nation-states where none of this is done on the basis of blood. I’m uncomfortable with that. I’ll just say that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But there are people who may not have bloodlines, but who have converted to Judaism. Are they going to be able to live here? Are you going to kick them out?

TUCKER CARLSON: By your standards, they can’t live here.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’ve just said that they have a —

TUCKER CARLSON: right to live here because God gave them the land, because they’re the descendants of Abram.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’re the Abraham. But if they’re the spiritual descendants of Abraham and they’ve now decided that they’re converting to Judaism, then do they have a right to live in Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, there’s a whole legal literature in Israel on that question, and my understanding is that certain types of modern Judaism qualify a person and other types don’t. Is that your understanding? I don’t believe that people converted. And I could have this wrong, but I know people who face this personally.

I don’t believe people who’ve converted in a Reform synagogue have the right of return. I don’t think that is because I know people who’ve married into Jewish families and they find out they don’t have the right of return. So that is perplexing to me.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, my experience is a little different than yours. I know people who have definite Jewish connections, family relations, but now they’re Christian. Some are not necessarily practicing Jews. They’re more secular Jews, as you’ve discussed, but they come back here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I’m not against that. I’m just wondering, since you began this conversation by asking me did I think they had a right to come here — that was my question — on what basis do they have the right? And you said, because God granted it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And I also said because there should be a land where Jews could live in peace and safety.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I asked you what a Jew was, and you couldn’t answer it. You said it partly is religious, but doesn’t have to be. It’s partly genetic, but it doesn’t have to be. And so you can see why I’m —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think that was very clear, that being Jewish is an identification either through blood or through faith that you’re Jewish. It may be that you’re a blood Jew, but you don’t necessarily practice Judaism, just like there are people who say they’re Christian, but they don’t do a thing to demonstrate what Christians —

TUCKER CARLSON: There are a lot of bad Christians, including me some of the time. A lot of the time. But I don’t have a right to real estate on the basis of my claim of Christ.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You don’t have a right to real estate if you’re talking about a specific parcel, but if you’re talking about a land — I think what we’re talking about is — that’s all I’m —

TUCKER CARLSON: All I’m saying.

The Question of Jewish Homeland and the Right of Return

MIKE HUCKABEE: And there was a designation to the family of nations of the world that there would be a Jewish homeland. Let’s get to that point, because I think you’ve taken us on several trails here, and I’m not sure we can follow them all.

But is there a reason that the Jewish people — and I want to get back to this because you didn’t let me finish a while ago — they represent 0.2% of the world’s population in the entirety of the world. There are about 16 million Jews total, and 8 million of them live here. The rest live mostly in New York or South Florida and a few other places.

So this is a small population of people. They have a connection to this land historically, biblically.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do they?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yes, they do. If —

TUCKER CARLSON: If Netanyahu’s family — we know they lived in Eastern Europe, there’s no evidence they ever lived here. He’s not religious, but in what sense — do you have his family tree? No, we don’t.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you?

TUCKER CARLSON: He doesn’t. So no one does. That’s the point. So how do we know that he has any connection to the land at all?

MIKE HUCKABEE: And if there has been a practice of Judaism and a connection to the language, the Bible, the land — his ancestors didn’t —

TUCKER CARLSON: He doesn’t practice Judaism in any rigorous way. His ancestors didn’t live here. They didn’t speak the language, and there’s no evidence they ever lived here. So on what basis does he have —

MIKE HUCKABEE: He very much speaks the language. He has fought for the land. His family has fought for the land.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m dodging an obvious question, which is where does this right come from? And the reason it’s meaningful is because there are a lot of people in the territory that Israel controls today, particularly in the West Bank, who, through genetic testing, we can know their families have been here for thousands of years.

We don’t know whether they practiced Judaism, whether they were Samaritans, pre-Islam. We don’t know that. A lot of them, we know, have been Christians for 2,000 years. They have less of a right to the land than someone whose ancestors — the only thing we know about them is they lived in Latvia or Poland. They’re Eastern European. How does that work?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’re Jewish.

TUCKER CARLSON: By what definition?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’re Jewish by their —

TUCKER CARLSON: But how do we know they have any connection? They’re Jewish by their faith?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’re Jewish by the connection to the language. Jewish by the connection to the Torah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But how do we know that Netanyahu — specifically Netanyahu’s ancestors — ever lived here? How do we know that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not sure if I understand your question.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do we know if the prime minister of Israel’s ancestors ever lived here?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Maybe I could ask you, how do we know they didn’t?

Competing Claims to Land and Historical Rights

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s on the basis of the claim that they did that all kinds of things happen. People are displaced. There’s a money flow. It’s a big question. A lot hangs on this. It’s not some theoretical thing like, “Oh, did my grandparents do this or that?” It’s, “No, we have a right to be here because my ancestors were here.” Okay, how do we know they were here?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m totally unable to process what you’re trying to get at. It goes back — do Jewish people have any land on this planet that should be theirs?

TUCKER CARLSON: I feel that way about all peoples. I feel that way about Jewish peoples. I feel that way about —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay, then you don’t mind them having this?

TUCKER CARLSON: Any country. Let me ask you this bluntly. Is there any country that European peoples have a right to exclusively?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think they have attained their land through conquest. Let’s ask ourselves, have Britons —

TUCKER CARLSON: Attained their lands through conquest?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’ve always been there.

MIKE HUCKABEE: The Romans, the Greeks. We’ve had all these —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you could certainly say that here. The Romans controlled this, as you know —

MIKE HUCKABEE: And they expelled all of Jerusalem.

TUCKER CARLSON: I want them to control it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Hope not.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m anti-Roman. Okay, we’re on the same page. But my question is very simple. Is there any European people that possesses the same right to their land that the Jews — including people whose ancestors lived in Eastern Europe — possess here?

The British people, the Scandinavian people, the Irish people — their ancestors have been there for thousands of years. That’s provable through genetic testing. Do they have a right to their land exclusively?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Is anyone saying they don’t?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, of course. No one will say they will. And I’m asking you, do they have that right?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not sure what that question involves because no one is trying to force them out of their land, out of their homes.

TUCKER CARLSON: But here — hold on. Why won’t you answer that question?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because I just did.

TUCKER CARLSON: So the Irish people have the same right to their land that the Jews have?

MIKE HUCKABEE: The biblical connection — okay, but I’m a Bible believer. Okay, so that is —

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s also a principle. And you’ve said it 15 —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Sometimes people have land because they were able to attain it through war. They were able to obtain it when it was challenged.

TUCKER CARLSON: I understand that there’s all kinds of conquest, but we can’t say that about the Irish.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Borders change all the time.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not actually — the borders of the island of Ireland have not changed, nor —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But the governance —

TUCKER CARLSON: Those are just two examples. So you’ve got the indigenous people there. Do they have a moral right to that as their homeland?

MIKE HUCKABEE: And I think they would probably say, “Yes, we do, because we have ancient history.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Now that I’m raising the question — and you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about the right of the Jewish people to their homeland — do the Irish have the same right —

MIKE HUCKABEE: To a homeland, as long as they can defend it —

TUCKER CARLSON: As long as they can defend it?

MIKE HUCKABEE: But, Tucker, here’s the point I’m telling you —

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, hold on now. You just flipped. You’re the minister here.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah. And I’m telling you, as long as —

TUCKER CARLSON: They can defend it, and if they can’t defend it —

Biblical, Historical, and Ethnic Claims to the Land

MIKE HUCKABEE: I want to tell you that I think what is very, very special here is that there is a biblical as well as an ethnic and a historical connection. So you can take anyone, but if you add them all together — biblical, historical, and ethnic — you have a very strong case that the Jewish people are living in a land that is indigenous to them, that has been their historic homeland for 3,800 years.

TUCKER CARLSON: You can repeat it as —

MIKE HUCKABEE: And you can also look at the archaeology. The stones cry out.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’ve been to the City of David. I have. Okay, so you know then —

TUCKER CARLSON: And I love that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s an amazing place. It may be the greatest archaeological discovery in all of history, because it’s stunning. And they still continue to find things that date the Jewish people to this land archaeologically for 3,800 years.

TUCKER CARLSON: We can date the British people to their land much longer — thousands of years longer. Stonehenge is 3,000 years older than any building built by the descendants of Abram in this country. So I just — it’s fine.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not trying to invalidate anyone’s right. I’m just wanting you to affirm that right. But it makes you uncomfortable and you won’t. And I don’t know why, because I’ve —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Honestly, I’ve never sat down and asked myself, are the lines around the —

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s an island, so we know what the lines are.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m saying, but are those lines rooted in something other than the historical connection? Well, great. Then they should have it. But that’s what they have a right to have it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But then you said if they can defend it, and if they can’t defend it, they lose the right.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I didn’t say it was exclusive, one or the other. I think you’re really going off the chart.

TUCKER CARLSON: I just want to know if these principles apply universally or if they only apply to the people of Israel. And my answer appears to be just the people of Israel — they’re the only ones with these rights. And I just reject that.

Defining Christian Zionism

MIKE HUCKABEE: I didn’t say that, but I’m saying we are talking about Israel. We’re in Israel. We’re talking about Christian Zionism. Because you’ve made some disparaging statements about Christian Zionists. You’ve apologized for them, for which I appreciate. And now we’re trying to define “Christian” and “Zionist.” And it seems like we’ve gone way, way off of that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m trying to get — as you suggested, as a former debater at the outset — I’m trying to get to terms and a common understanding of what the words mean.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And the term —

TUCKER CARLSON: And I’m no closer to that than I was when I began.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’re not closer to the term “Christian,” what that means?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think it’s someone who follows Jesus. And that’s my next question. There are a lot of Christians in the West Bank, and there were a fair amount of Christians in Gaza, and some of them had been killed.

MIKE HUCKABEE: There were 5,000 in Gaza. Yeah.

The IDF, Gaza, and Civilian Casualties

TUCKER CARLSON: And church. Two different churches were hit by the IDF. Christian Hospital was hit seven times by the IDF. And I don’t understand.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They were not hit seven times. There were different incidents. And one of the times it was a rocket that was shot by Hamas. And all the news agencies reported that the IDF shot the rocket.

TUCKER CARLSON: Did the IDF ever hit the hospital or the churches?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They did.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Accidentally. And they apologized for it. And it was very unfortunate. But you’ve got to remember, there were times Hamas often hid caches of arms under hospitals.

TUCKER CARLSON: Were you bothered by the fact that the IDF hit Christians?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m bothered that anyone got killed in Gaza. But you know why I’m bothered.

TUCKER CARLSON: If you’re a Christian —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Here’s the thing.

TUCKER CARLSON: You can’t say that the Christians are Islamic extremists.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, but I can say that the —

TUCKER CARLSON: — reason that they side with the Christians over the secular government of Israel.

Hamas, Tunnels, and the October 7th Attacks

MIKE HUCKABEE: I would look at it even more broadly. I would ask you this — why was there so much suffering, and why does suffering continue in Gaza? It’s because Hamas, which could have built a Singapore, built a Haiti instead. They had a landmass the size of Las Vegas. They built tunnels underneath that are larger than the London Underground — over 500 miles of tunnels. They didn’t build it to move people from one hospital to the other, one marketplace to the other, but to hide terrorists and hide weaponry.

And on October 7th, they went over there and they massacred 1,200 civilians. Massacred, mutilated, humiliated them.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re never going to get me to defend Hamas. Sorry.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Please don’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not going to.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m telling you, I’m appalled by it.

The Question of Civilian Deaths

TUCKER CARLSON: How many civilians have been killed by the IDF in Gaza?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We don’t know. You know why? We don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: What’s your guess?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, the only numbers we have come from this dubious entity called the Gaza Health Ministry. You know who that is?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, why does Israel have some kind of count on it?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We also know that a lot of the people who were killed were in fact warriors, sadly.

TUCKER CARLSON: How many kids were killed?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: What’s your guess?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know. I’m sure it was thousands. And some of the kids who were killed had been recruited to be in the military — kids as young as 14 years old.

TUCKER CARLSON: Terrible. Did you hear yourself?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I just said that there were kids as young as 14 that were recruited to be Hamas soldiers and given arms.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you feel about the kids being killed?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think it’s horrible. You know what I also think is horrible? I think it’s horrible that 1,200 people were slaughtered by people across the border, and 252 people were taken hostage. 48 of the 1,200 were Americans. When are all lives equal? When Hamas could have ended this on October 8th and given all the hostages up, they didn’t — leaving no choice.

A Question of Moral Consistency

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re never going to get me to defend Hamas.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I hope not.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not pro-Hamas. I am totally opposed to slaughtering innocents, whether Hamas does it or whether the government of Israel does it in much larger numbers. And the reason I’m opposed to it is because I’m a Christian and I believe that all souls are created by God.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I do not disagree with that wholeheartedly.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I said, how many children have been —

MIKE HUCKABEE: War is a horrible thing, period. And we don’t know. We know that a lot of the numbers were reported by —

TUCKER CARLSON: You said you think thousands of children have been killed.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yes. And a lot of times, you know why they got killed? Because Hamas would gather up the children and put them in the targets. Do you know what Israel does? They send page messages and texts to every cell phone in Gaza and they say, “We’re going to hit this particular target.” They drop leaflets and they announce where they’re going to hit. Nobody does that. The US doesn’t do that. Israel does that in order to prevent civilian casualties.

Let me finish this. They do this in order to prevent civilian casualties. What Hamas does — they say, “Oh, this is the target,” and by gunpoint, they push people into those various places. And then when people get killed, they say, “Look, Israel just slaughtered these people,” even though it was Hamas who moved them into harm’s way, knowing that it was going to put them in a place of danger and death and destruction. And they do that because they don’t care. You say you care about life. I care about life. It’s interesting that they don’t care about life.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not saying that Hamas does. You’re never going to get me to defend Hamas. I’m anti-Hamas.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’ve said that three times. And I believe you. But your dig at the —

TUCKER CARLSON: — United States is very revealing.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Why is it revealing?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because your priorities are very clear.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, no, no, no.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes, they are. And as an American, permit me a moment of outrage — because I said many civilians have been killed. And you said, right in the middle of your elaborate defense of the IDF’s killing of civilians, including children, “They do a better job than the United States does.” That’s my country and my government.

Loyalty, Flags, and Comparisons

MIKE HUCKABEE: What flag am I wearing here?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I’m asking why is it —

MIKE HUCKABEE: What flag am I wearing?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s of course my flag as well.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And it’s my flag. It’s who I serve.

TUCKER CARLSON: So why the dig at the United States?

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s not a dig at them. No, no, no, no. You’ve totally misrepresented —

TUCKER CARLSON: What did you mean by that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I did not take a dig at the US. What I’m saying is —

TUCKER CARLSON: — the IDF is more humane than the US military.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, I’m just saying that Israel takes steps that we don’t take, and no other country that I’m aware of takes, to try to prevent — because no matter what Israel does, they’re going to get accused of genocide.

TUCKER CARLSON: That may be right.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And I’m just telling you that they —

TUCKER CARLSON: But then let me ask you on that question. That’s such a politically loaded —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I resent the idea that you think that I’m not loyal to the US, or that I said —

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, I’m not saying you’re not loyal. I’m merely noting what you just said, which was that the IDF takes greater pains than the US military does to spare civilian lives. And I guess my question is — when was the last time the US military killed this many civilians? Do you know?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, it could have been Nagasaki, Hiroshima, could have been Iraq, Afghanistan. We don’t know the full number.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I think most Christians would say all of those things were atrocities, because innocents were killed in large numbers and we don’t believe in that. So that’s not really a defense, is it?

The Moral Weight of War

MIKE HUCKABEE: War is a horrible thing, Tucker. And there are people who end up, unfortunately, being killed that shouldn’t have been. I would tell you that I wish that none of those people in Gaza had been killed after October 8th. Well, not none of them — I’m glad Mohammed Sinwar was killed. I’m glad that some of those warriors, the people who masterminded and carried out —

TUCKER CARLSON: — the atrocities. Are 47-year-old Hamas operatives. How do you feel about their deaths?

MIKE HUCKABEE: If they participated in that, then God help them.

TUCKER CARLSON: What does that mean?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know. But I’m telling you — when someone commits acts of atrocity and then holds hostages, if these were your children being held hostage in Gaza, what would you do to get them out?

TUCKER CARLSON: I wouldn’t want to kill 14-year-olds, I’ll tell you that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let me ask you something. Would you do whatever it took to get your kids back if they were being tortured, raped, starved?

TUCKER CARLSON: I would not kill children, period.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I’m just telling you —

TUCKER CARLSON: And I would never make excuses for killing children either.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And I’m not talking about targeting children. I’m talking about —

TUCKER CARLSON: You told me that 14-year-olds deserve to die because they’re working for Hamas.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m telling you —

TUCKER CARLSON: My question is, can you hear yourself?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I do hear myself.

TUCKER CARLSON: So do you think a 14-year-old child has agency? Do you think that he deserves to die because he’s being used by adults? Isn’t his death a crushing tragedy?

MIKE HUCKABEE: He’s holding a gun and he’s pointing it at someone who’s trying to save a hostage. And the only way to save that hostage — I’m telling you, war is a horrible thing. It’s a horrible thing and a lot of innocent —

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I’m the one who thinks war is a horrible thing.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, no, no, no. I think what you don’t —

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m trying to explain how horrible it is. And you’re saying that the 14-year-old deserved to die. We don’t execute 14-year-olds.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’re putting words in my mouth that —

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know what you’re saying.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I never said “deserved to die.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m saying there are people who die. That is unfortunate. But I’m saying that you are not giving Israel credit for having done everything they possibly could — to a level that, quite frankly, in urban warfare, there has never been a war that has criticized Israel more.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s a foreign country, and I would much rather criticize a foreign country than my own.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Feel free to do that. They can handle it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you pivoted against our country by saying Israel has done a better job than our military.

Debating the Numbers

MIKE HUCKABEE: I simply gave you the illustration to help you understand that Israel goes to lengths that no other country, including ours, goes to in the middle of an urban war. And yet Israel ended up with fewer civilian deaths in an urban war than any urban war on record.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said you didn’t know how many civilian deaths there were. So how can you say that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: If you took Gaza’s numbers — Hamas’s numbers —

TUCKER CARLSON: You said you don’t know what the numbers are.

MIKE HUCKABEE: We don’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then how can you say it’s a lower number?

MIKE HUCKABEE: But if you took the numbers that they reported — which is like 50,000 — 24,000 to 25,000 of those were actual warriors. If you took those numbers —

TUCKER CARLSON: The range I just read was from 120,000 to 78,000. I don’t know if that’s real.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know either. The numbers that I think are more reportable are somewhere in the 60,000 range. Where do those come from? From the Gaza Health Ministry. I don’t think they’re accurate. But listen —

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re saying they’re inaccurate, but they prove that Israel’s done —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — a great job. Let’s assume that the most widespread numbers, the largest numbers that have been reported out of Gaza by Hamas — yes, let’s assume they’re true. That’s what I’m saying. I’m not saying they are true, but assume they’re true. Let’s just take them at their word. Then you still have a lower number of civilians killed than in any urban warfare environment in modern history. Fact.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is that a fact?

The IDF, Gaza, and Civilian Casualties

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you comparing it to?

MIKE HUCKABEE: To any urban warfare.

TUCKER CARLSON: Name one.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Iraq. Afghanistan.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where in Iraq? Where in Afghanistan? There aren’t many urban areas in Afghanistan. I don’t think there was any fighting in urban areas in Afghanistan.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Kabul.

TUCKER CARLSON: Were there pitched battles in Kabul over long periods of time? 20 years in Kabul. I don’t know.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Throughout all of Afghanistan. But what —

TUCKER CARLSON: So what were those rates?

MIKE HUCKABEE: What are the rates there?

TUCKER CARLSON: You just —

MIKE HUCKABEE: The number of people who were killed into the tens of thousands. I’m asking you to —

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know the answer. I’ve never heard of any of this. You brought it up. You said the IDF has killed a lower proportion of civilians in urban warfare than in any urban conflict in modern history. I’d never heard that before. What are the controls for that? And you said, well, would you agree that the US Military killed more civilians?

Netanyahu’s “Amalek” Reference

MIKE HUCKABEE: Would you agree that the real tragedy was that Hamas continued to force this war?

TUCKER CARLSON: Hold on. You just once again said that the IDF is more humane than the United States Military. You said in Iraq and Afghanistan the US Military killed more civilians than the IDF did in Gaza. I never heard that before. And my question is, how do you know that? What are those numbers?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m trying to explain to you that there were extraordinary efforts to keep the numbers down. I think there were tens of thousands — I’ll get them for you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you brought it up. That’s the only reason I’m pushing.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But you — I’m wearing a flag, I work for a country. And you pretended or alleged that somehow I’m not loyal to this, and I’m criticizing my own country, and I’m saying Israel did a better job than the US Military in Iraq and Afghanistan.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I said, what are the numbers? And you said, I don’t know. So on what basis are you making the claim that the IDF in Gaza spared more civilians than the US Army and Marine Corps did in Afghanistan and Iraq? Why are you saying that? On what basis are you saying that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: From the conversations that I’ve had with the people who fought there. I don’t have the exact numbers for you, but what I’m trying to help you to understand — and I don’t think you’re willing to go there — is that there was no desire to kill people indiscriminately in Gaza. I don’t think there was any desire to kill people indiscriminately in Iraq or Afghanistan.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me just say, I think I know a bunch of people who served in the IDF. And I don’t believe your average IDF soldier wants to kill innocents. I want to be really clear about that. I don’t think most soldiers want to do that. I think a lot of them — in our country, in Israel — wind up doing that because that’s what war is. And it really hurts them. I know people who’ve done it personally, I know them really well, and it wrecks their lives. But I don’t think your average soldier wants that, in this country or any other.

Leadership is a different question. And I want to refer you very specifically to a number of speeches the Prime Minister, your friend Benjamin Netanyahu, gave in the aftermath of October 7, including one in November of that year when he referred to Amalek.

Now, Amalek is a biblical reference — of course, you’ll be very familiar with that. The Amalekites were a tribe described throughout the Bible, particularly in First Samuel, that obstructed the Jews as they fled Egypt. And God tells Samuel to give the instructions to Saul to kill the Amalekites. He says — and I’m sure you remember this, this is in 1st Samuel 15 — “Kill the men, kill the women, kill the children, kill the infants, kill the donkeys, kill the camels, kill everything.”

And Saul spares the king, and he spares the animals. And for that he is punished by God. That is genocide. God is calling for genocide of the Amalekites. And the Prime Minister of Israel, at least once — I believe on other occasions as well — described the Palestinians in Gaza as Amalek. That’s calling for genocide. And you know that.

Debating Netanyahu’s Intent

MIKE HUCKABEE: I totally disagree.

TUCKER CARLSON: Tell me then what it means.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because to say that Israel was attempting to commit genocide — first of all, that’s simply not true.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m saying, what is the Prime Minister talking about? Why would he refer to the Palestinians as Amalek?

MIKE HUCKABEE: You would have to ask him. I don’t know. I know what Amalek is. I do understand 1st Samuel. I get all that.

TUCKER CARLSON: 1st Samuel 15. It’s widely known. So if you say “our enemy is Amalek” and we are proceeding on the basis of God’s commands to us, you are calling for genocide. Tell me how I’m missing something.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because if Israel wanted to commit genocide, they could have done it in two and a half hours. We can debate what they’ve done in Gaza.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m asking you why the leader of this country — ask him. Well, what do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Does that bother you at all?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know what he meant. I don’t know if it was an illustrative metaphor. I think what he was saying was that we’re not going to let anything keep us from getting our hostages back — their sons and their daughters who are being brutalized, raped, tortured, starved, beaten.

TUCKER CARLSON: Come on. There are many examples of justice in the Bible, but there are very —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Israel gets accused of genocide regularly.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not accusing Israel of anything. I’m saying that the Prime Minister of Israel described the Palestinians —

MIKE HUCKABEE: You think he attempted to do genocide.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m asking why, of all the references in the Bible — and there are many to justice, and there are many to reconciliation — that is a reference to genocide. As you know: killing every man, woman, child, and infant. I’m quoting. And their animals. Wiping them from the earth. And when they don’t do that, they’re punished.

When you say that at the outset of a war and then you wind up with massive civilian casualties — maybe not as big as they were in Iraq — then I have to ask you, what is that? And is that kind of thinking consistent with Western values and with Christianity? Do we as Christians believe it’s okay to kill people’s children?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, we don’t. And neither do the Israelis, because they didn’t go after their children. If they’d have wanted to kill all their children, Tucker, they’ve got the military capacity. They could have done it in less than a day.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve heard you say that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I know.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I guess —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But why didn’t they? Why didn’t they?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think there are a lot of decent people in Israel who don’t want that. But I’m talking —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you think that the Prime Minister wanted to wipe out every single person in Gaza? Do you?

TUCKER CARLSON: What you think is — you’re the US representative of our government.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think that’s what he wanted to do. Ask him.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why are you referring —

MIKE HUCKABEE: I never had to ask him that. Because I never saw any evidence — any evidence — that Israel tried to wipe out every single person. I just gave you examples that they tried to save civilian lives.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not — by the way, and I mean this — I think most soldiers in most armies, including the Israel Defense Forces, don’t want to kill civilians. I just don’t believe that. I think there are some lunatics.

The Tony Aguilar Controversy

MIKE HUCKABEE: Can I ask you something? You had a guy on your show — Tony Aguilar.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t platform anyone.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, you interviewed him. You interviewed Tony Aguilar, who claimed that IDF soldiers killed a little boy in his presence. That didn’t happen. It did not happen. Let me give you the story.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know if you know whether it happened or not.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I can tell you why I know it didn’t happen — because we found that little boy less than a week later.

TUCKER CARLSON: All right.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I was heavily involved in helping to extricate him from Gaza. Four different countries were involved in getting him and his mother to safety — getting them out of there.

Tony Aguilar is a liar. Tony Aguilar claimed that he saw an IDF soldier shoot the little boy. He was fired from the GHF for cause, and he begged for his job back. They wouldn’t give it back because they didn’t want him. And he told them that if they didn’t give his job back, he would burn them down.

So this guy then goes out and makes up this story — that he witnessed IDF soldiers shooting a little boy.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know that he made it up. He seemed to believe it, to me. It’s possible he’s wrong. I’ve been wrong many times.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, this is a little bit more than just missing a fact. He claimed to be an eyewitness to the murder of a little boy. A little boy that a week later we found.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you’re sure it’s the same little boy?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We’re absolutely sure.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you know that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because we have pictures of him. We had descriptions of him. We know his name, we know his mother. He was extricated out of Gaza. It was a very delicate situation to get him out, because if Hamas had found out that he was still alive, they would have killed him in order to validate Aguilar’s story.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you know Hamas would have killed him?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Why wouldn’t they? Wouldn’t they have wanted to kill him? Because that way they could have said that this story was true.

TUCKER CARLSON: You and I have no basis for knowing that. I’m really glad — because I don’t want little kids to get killed, even 14-year-olds.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You shouldn’t want anyone to get killed.

Live Ammunition at Aid Distribution Sites

TUCKER CARLSON: But let me ask you — Aguilar also made the claim, and he had audio and video of it, that US contractors were using live ammunition to disperse crowds. Do you know if he made up that video?

MIKE HUCKABEE: There were times — here’s what happened. Crowds would come toward the sites. They were given verbal warnings, and then additional verbal warnings, and shots were fired either in the air or sometimes in the ground. And if they continued to come and threaten — there were times when there were people who were engaged in firefights. That happened.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, they were armed?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Sometimes they were.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you know of specific instances where they were armed?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I can probably get you some specific information about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I know the answer to that. I don’t think there’s any evidence at all that they were.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I also know that —

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you okay with using live ammunition at aid distribution sites — for families, women and children?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Very rarely did this happen.

TUCKER CARLSON: How about at all? Are you okay with that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No. I’ll tell you what, I’m not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, no, no. I think you are trying so hard to put words in my mouth.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said that they were firing back, but —

The Value of Every Life

MIKE HUCKABEE: But then evidence that they were on a Sunday afternoon. I can remember when there was widespread reports on BBC, CNN and the New York Times, and they said that 27 people were killed at a feeding site. We had video extensively over that site. Not one single person — not only were they not shot, nobody was shot at. There was not one bit of violence that happened at that feeding site.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not going to try to defend BBC. Not going to do that. It’s like defending Hamas. I agree with you. I don’t believe anything I see in the media. It’s just that it’s really simple — if people are using live ammunition at an aid distribution site… and these were American contractors, by the way. These are not Israelis. I’m aware of American contractors run by some crypto minister or something who was running the group. If they’re using live ammunition at an aid distribution site, that strikes me as totally unacceptable.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They were not firing—

TUCKER CARLSON: Does that seem acceptable to you?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They were not firing with—

TUCKER CARLSON: People got killed. There’s a way to—

MIKE HUCKABEE: Some of those people got killed because Hamas were trying to keep them from getting to the aid distribution sites, because Hamas was controlling the food. Hamas made $500 million selling the food that was supposed to be given away for free. And what they were trying to do is to keep people from going to the sites where they were getting food for free.

When we set GHF up, Hamas — the first thing that happened — I know, but I’m telling you, the first thing that people said was, “Wow, this is the first time we’ve had food that we got for free. Is it okay to buy it?”

TUCKER CARLSON: Unarmed people?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I just told you it wasn’t. That’s awful. Yeah, it’s awful. Of course it’s awful.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are all lives equal, do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Of course they are.

TUCKER CARLSON: So the death of a Palestinian is every bit as important and significant as the death of an Israeli?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Why wouldn’t it be? Of course it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. Of course it is.

MIKE HUCKABEE: There’s no such thing as a human soul that God made that is less valuable than another. I’m pro-life.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

MIKE HUCKABEE: So I believe that every life has intrinsic worth and value. There’s no such thing as a worthless or a completely disposable life. That’s what makes me pro-life, Tucker. And I believe that from conception until the end of natural life.

TUCKER CARLSON: I would never say — when confronted with the death of children — “war is terrible,” because it minimizes the deaths of those children. It’s awful.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think it minimizes. I think it is outrageous. It’s a terrible thing. I wish we never had war. Why do we have war?

The Prospect of War With Iran

TUCKER CARLSON: We’re about to have one with Iran, it looks like. How many Americans do you think will die in that war?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I hope none. None died last year when we participated in the 12-day war. Not one. You said 20,000 would die and they didn’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: I said “could.” And they could have, and they could die now. And that’s a real risk.

MIKE HUCKABEE: How many boots on the ground do you think the US has supplied for Israel over the course of its life? How many times have we put soldiers on the ground for Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, we had the Iraq War, which was for Israel.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No — not for Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: How was it for us?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, because it was retribution against 9/11. Now, was it the best idea?

TUCKER CARLSON: Was Iraq involved in 9/11?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Our government thought so.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why are 9/11 documents still classified?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have no idea.

TUCKER CARLSON: Should they be declassified?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think so. All of them. I have no problem with that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Me too.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I like transparency. I like sunlight. I do.

TUCKER CARLSON: I hope you’ll call for that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I like a free press. I like free speech. I really like all of that. But if—

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve never seen — and I’m open to anything — but I’ve never seen any connection between the government of Saddam Hussein, the secular Baathist government of Saddam Hussein, and the terror attacks of 9/11.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know that there were. I don’t know. So I’m not sure — but I don’t know how that makes it Israel’s fault.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, Benjamin Netanyahu, now prime minister, of course exerted lots of pressure openly on the US government to affect regime change in the Saddam government. I was there in Washington, and they complied. I don’t think there’s any way to read it differently.

Israel’s Influence on U.S. Foreign Policy

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you think Israel leads the US and pushes them and tells them what to do?

TUCKER CARLSON: Not on everything, of course.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You think what I think.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me be specific. I think the Israeli government strongly pushed the United States to take out Saddam Hussein — there’s no question about that. I think the Israeli government right now, under Benjamin Netanyahu, has been in the White House seven times in one year pushing for regime change in Iran. I think they’re on the verge of convincing this administration to affect regime change.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you think the President is weak and is being pushed?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not saying that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I know.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know the President is being pushed. Why do you think a foreign leader was in the White House seven times in one year? Are you okay with that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s a lot. Israel is not just a friend or an ally — it is a real partner. We have an incredible relationship with Israel in intelligence, in military, in culture, in values. To be shocked that the Israeli prime minister would have that many meetings — it’s a lot. But I want to ask you the question: do you think President Trump is weak enough to let Benjamin Netanyahu push him into something that he doesn’t want to do?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t. Look, I think — and I don’t know the answer to every question, including this one — but I think President Trump really doesn’t like nuclear proliferation. And I don’t think he wants Iran to have a bomb. I think he really, sincerely—

MIKE HUCKABEE: I hope you don’t want them to have a bomb.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t want them to have a bomb. I don’t want anyone to have a bomb, including Israel. I don’t know why we’re okay with Israel having nuclear weapons. I’m not. I’m not okay with Pakistan having them. I’m not okay with Saudi Arabia having them.

Israel’s nuclear weapons were created, of course, with nuclear material stolen from the United States from a nuclear plant in Pennsylvania — as I know you know. I’m opposed to all of it. I don’t like nuclear weapons. It’s mass murder as far as I’m concerned.

So, no, I don’t want Iran to have a bomb. Obviously, the question is: what are the potential costs? And you have to factor that into any decision. And what are the costs if—

MIKE HUCKABEE: —they were to get a nuclear bomb? They’ve said for 47 years, “Death to America.”

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t think they target us. I don’t think— They’ve targeted President Trump specifically.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, they’ve hired a person. Iran, BBC and Hamas. Not defending him. Good.

TUCKER CARLSON: All I’m saying — we’re in agreement on that.

America’s Financial Commitments to Israel

TUCKER CARLSON: I want to say — our country is not thriving, and we’re spending tens and tens and tens of billions of dollars over time defending Israel and helping it prosecute all—

MIKE HUCKABEE: You know where that money goes—

TUCKER CARLSON: It goes to a lot of places.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But let’s talk about that for a minute. $3.8 billion a year — that money goes right back to the US to purchase weapon systems. For example, every round of ammo that the IDF shoots is manufactured just outside where I live in Little Rock, Arkansas. The components — a lot of them — for the Iron Dome and the Arrow 3 missile defense systems are manufactured near Camden, Arkansas.

TUCKER CARLSON: Which needs it, by the way. Camden’s economically depressed.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You know the area.

TUCKER CARLSON: I do.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And there are thousands and thousands of American jobs, and there are billions and billions of dollars of expenditures that Israel makes in the US, buying the things that we can provide.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know how defense contracting works. I’m from Washington. I know this. I guess what I’m saying is America’s not thriving at all. And you think it’s Israel’s fault?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think it’s Israel’s fault. Okay, well, good, because I just think—

TUCKER CARLSON: What we’re doing isn’t working at all. And America is not rich.

MIKE HUCKABEE: The President is doing some amazing things to get us back on track.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not attacking Trump.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m merely saying that over, say, the last 20 years, America’s not gotten richer or freer at all. And I come to Israel and the infrastructure we’re flying in, and I say to my buddy — I was like, “Man, first of all, it looks great. I love the agriculture in Israel because it’s beautiful. I love green. I love plants.”

MIKE HUCKABEE: I remember when it didn’t look like that. First time I came here, 53 years ago—

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s great.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It did not look like that.

TUCKER CARLSON: It looks a lot nicer than our country. And it has a higher standard of living. It has nicer roads than the United States. And so it’s like — okay, why are we sending all this money to a country that has a higher standard of living than ours?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know that they have a higher standard of living.

TUCKER CARLSON: They do, actually. They have free health care. They also have free abortion. Are you okay with that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I personally don’t like that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would we be subsidizing — why would we send any money to a country that provides free abortion?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We’re not—

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would we send any money to a country that provides free abortion?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because the money that we send does not pay for health care. It does not pay for abortion. It pays for military purposes.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s like — if they don’t spend it on this, they’ll spend it on that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: —spend it on that, and then we get many more times back in the return on the investment. When we say we’re not sending you—

TUCKER CARLSON: —any more money as long as you have free abortion.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, that would be a policy decision. I would be okay with it, because I hate abortion. I think it’s horrible.

TUCKER CARLSON: How much do you hate it?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I hate it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why are we sending them money if they’re paying for free—

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because they’re not paying for abortions with the money. And because we in turn get billions of dollars back — the return on investment is estimated somewhere between 4 and 12 times.

TUCKER CARLSON: I just live here and I know — and I’m, by the way, I’m not anti-American manufacturing. The defense industry is totally corrupt and seedy, as you know. However, I like to see American companies thrive. It’s complicated. I’m not an extremist or an absolutist on really anything other than abortion. However, net-net, as we say, our country’s not really thriving. And we’re also totally broke.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Is that the case? Is it because we’ve done a lousy job controlling our borders? A lousy job of controlling spending? It’s a lot of things, yeah, but we own that. I think President Trump is doing remarkable things to turn it around.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think—

MIKE HUCKABEE: I cannot imagine any President — I know. But if you’re saying the country is—

TUCKER CARLSON: Listen, we’re out of money, actually, is what I’m—

MIKE HUCKABEE: —credit to what the President is doing to get us out of debt, because I think that what he’s doing economically— I’m not supporting Hamas and I’m not attacking Trump.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

The Cost of Confronting Iran

TUCKER CARLSON: Just with those baseline agreements. It’s also true that our debt is not sustainable. And so given that, what do you think it will cost? What did it cost to move the fleet off Iran into the Persian Gulf?

MIKE HUCKABEE: A lot less than it would to bury a lot of Americans if they ever got a long range ballistic missile. A lot less. Tucker, I want you to understand that when Iran has told us for 47 years they’re going to kill us, do you think they would do it if they had the capacity militarily?

TUCKER CARLSON: What would happen if Iran took out any of the energy facilities in the Gulf, took out a bunch of them? What would happen to the United States economy, do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, our economy probably would survive because we have energy independence thanks to President Trump. It would survive. Our economy is what happens to markets.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: It would be a terrible thing to happen globally. It’s why Iran is a global threat. It’s why Iran, through its proxies, Tucker — this is another thing people don’t realize —

TUCKER CARLSON: — they’re not blowing up energy infrastructure right now. But if we try to regime change them, they have said that they will. I don’t know if they will or not.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t either.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is that a risk that —

MIKE HUCKABEE: But they have their own problems to defend if they try to do that and they lose their own energy capacity.

The Risk of Economic Collapse

TUCKER CARLSON: So if they took out — and I again, I don’t know what’s going to happen. And I guess we’re not supposed to think about worst case because that makes us pro-Islamic or something. But I’m an American and I don’t want a depression in our country. It’s too fractured and unstable right now. I don’t think we want that at all.

MIKE HUCKABEE: None of us want that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not right now. We don’t. Not at all.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t want it. I don’t want it next year, next week, 10 years from now.

TUCKER CARLSON: Especially now, when all these states are basically in a state of insurrection against the federal government. They’re not enforcing the most basic law of the land, which is immigration.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And thank goodness President Trump is pushing back on that.

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree. I’m just saying, if all of a sudden markets just tanked and gas tripled or whatever, and you had a severe recession or something worse — that’s a massive cost. And I don’t see anybody factoring in that possibility. Iran has said it will do it. You’ve said ten times they’re evil.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay, I believe you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why wouldn’t they take out the Qatari gas fields they share with Qatar, or refining petrochemicals extraction in any of the Gulf countries? That would cripple us.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Are you worried about that energy wise? Again, we have independence because President Trump put measures in place that gave us the capacity.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do we set international energy prices in the United States?

MIKE HUCKABEE: In some ways we do, because our own market and our own production has a whole lot to do with what those world costs are going to be.

TUCKER CARLSON: If you took out Saudi energy production, Qatari energy production, or Emirati energy production —

MIKE HUCKABEE: That is making an assumption that if there were regime change, they would be more effective at attacking than we would be defending. And that’s a pretty big assumption.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can we defend the Strait of Hormuz? Can we defend all of that energy infrastructure? Is anyone even asking these questions, or is it all just like a Mark Levin episode — “They’re bad”?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They are certainly asking the questions. That’s part of the whole process.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you saying?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Is it not?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve raised this before and it’s like, “Shut up, you’re taking money from the jihadis.” I’ve never taken a dime from anybody.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Obviously.

TUCKER CARLSON: I just care about the United States and it freaks me out. And no one else seems worried about this.

Iran’s Proxies and the Threat to Americans

MIKE HUCKABEE: Caring about the US — you should care about the fact that the proxies of Iran have moved globally. Twelve Central and South American countries have Hezbollah deeply embedded. Venezuela is one of the worst. They’re in the Western Hemisphere already.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where would you rank that on the list of concerns for the average American? Hezbollah?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I doubt most Americans think about it. I think about it because I know what they do. I know that if it weren’t for Iran, there wouldn’t be Hamas. There wouldn’t be the Houthis, there wouldn’t be Hezbollah. We wouldn’t have the problem on the border with Lebanon. We wouldn’t have the problem with Yemen.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m an American. I’m not having any problems on the border with Lebanon right now. I live in Maine. We don’t have problems on the border of Lebanon. What are you even talking about?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No offense, but there are 700,000 Americans who live in Israel, for one thing. Does that matter to you?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. Every American matters to me.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Every life matters the same. So that should matter. When they start shelling civilians and civilians get killed and displaced, that should matter to all of us.

TUCKER CARLSON: But I mean, there’s a genocide going on in all kinds of different countries. There’s a lot that’s sad and broken about the world. We know that as Christians — Satan rules the world. But our job as members of a nation state is to look after our community and families.

I don’t think any of the concerns that you’ve just raised — which I think are all real, I’m not disputing them at all — are even in the top hundred for Americans. Do we have self-government? Does it matter what Americans actually think?

Does American Public Opinion Matter?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Of course it does. But it also matters — how much does it matter what the threat is to Americans? Do you think there’s a threat to Americans because of the proliferation of Iran’s proxies?

TUCKER CARLSON: Conceivably there is. I’m not pro-Iran.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But beyond conceivably, do you think that they mean it when they say it?

TUCKER CARLSON: For 47 years — I think cartels are in my town, and no one’s doing anything about it at all.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And I’m hearing a lot about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: No one’s doing anything about it at all. Okay? That’s a fact. We have a huge country — a country the size of a continent, totally diverse, very hard to manage and police. And we have a lot of problems. And I just think if you ask Americans what they want to spend their time and money worrying about, fixing, improving — no one’s going to mention the border with Lebanon. Do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I doubt they will, but I think —

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why are we doing this?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’d like to think that there are people in the US government monitoring what the threats are to Americans long term.

TUCKER CARLSON: Sure, yeah.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Do you think there’s a threat? The question is when. People thought it was a threat for 37 years. But I don’t know that Saddam ever said he was going to take down America.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you just —

MIKE HUCKABEE: The Iranian regime has said for 47 years that they are going to.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you just —

MIKE HUCKABEE: If they had the capacity of a long range ballistic missile and nuclear capability, do you think they’d light that puppy up and send it to us?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I know this from sitting here last year — four wars that I went through in less than a year. The Iranians rained down ballistic missiles.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I ask you a question? How much does it matter what Americans think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: It matters every bit what Americans think. That’s why Americans vote. It’s why Americans have the opportunity to have free speech. We want them to have that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, so what percentage of Americans support a war with Iran?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know. Do you know?

TUCKER CARLSON: I do. I think it’s around — I saw the numbers yesterday — it was like 21%.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: Is that enough to have a war with Iran?

A Republic, Not a Democracy

MIKE HUCKABEE: We don’t live in a world where you have a poll taken to find out whether our policy should go in a particular direction.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because I thought — I thought you just said that it matters.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, we care deeply about it. But on the other hand, do we make the decisions of foreign policy and even domestic policy based solely on polls?

TUCKER CARLSON: In what sense, if we’re ignoring it, do we “care deeply about it”?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I think we care deeply when we see there’s a threat.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but I mean about Americans’ opinions. You’ve got 350 million Americans.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They vote.

TUCKER CARLSON: They voted in this last election, in part on the promise of no more wars. So now we’re about to have a war. It looks like 80% of people are against it — let’s say 70% — but nowhere near a majority support for this war. And it’s not direct democracy, but it is a form of democracy. It’s representative democracy — the ultimate form of —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — democracy in our system. Because we’re not a true democracy. We’re a republic.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a mediated democracy.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’ll be an opportunity for Americans to vote if they think that we’ve made the wrong policy decisions. I personally think the President is making the right policy decisions.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you just said it matters deeply what Americans think. And if the overall majority are against it, in what sense does it matter? Because what I hear is, “It matters what they think” — but it really doesn’t matter what they think, because —

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, you take it in. You certainly ingest that.

TUCKER CARLSON: And then what do you do once you ingest it?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Then you make sure that you have —

TUCKER CARLSON: No, you just — it goes out the other end, obviously.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, it doesn’t. No, it doesn’t, Tucker. But you also have information that the average American may not have. They may not know what the threat is. How many Americans know that Hezbollah is in 12 Western Hemisphere countries?

TUCKER CARLSON: How many Americans care?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, I would hope they would all care. How many Americans know how many people from Iran, from terrorist cells, have come across Joe Biden’s open border? How many Americans care about that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, why haven’t they been rounded up?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They’re trying. But you’ve got all these blue state mayors and governors making it very difficult. Thank God President Trump is trying to get it done.

TUCKER CARLSON: Look, I’m totally all for that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Completely.

The Real Threats Facing Americans

TUCKER CARLSON: I guess what I’m saying is that most Americans — I’ve never met an American who thinks, other than people who have ideological reasons to pretend they think it, that the imminent threat to America is anything having to do with Iran.

The imminent threats to America include bankruptcy from too much debt, your son ODing on fentanyl, your neighborhood completely changing. Because unlike Israel, Americans don’t have a right to their country. It can just be completely changed by their legislature. New people can show up from foreign countries and not speak your language, and there’s nothing you can do about it — because you don’t have a right, because you’re not Bibi.

Can you feel the resentment? Because it’s real. I’m not against Israel. I’m against the total destruction —

MIKE HUCKABEE: You hide that very well.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m mad at my lawmakers for not protecting my country with the care they’ve protected Israel.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t think that your country — my country, our country — has spent that much time protecting Israel. I asked you a little bit ago —

U.S. Foreign Policy, Israel, and the Iran Question

TUCKER CARLSON: …spend no time protecting my country.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, I ask you. Well, actually they do. How? They are the tip of the spear. Every enemy they have is our enemy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Our country.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Things that are targeted toward us often go through them.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do we have 60 million illegal aliens if they protected my country?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, we didn’t protect our country because we had a president that opened up the borders and didn’t give a rip.

TUCKER CARLSON: Going on since Reagan, coming in since Reagan, 1986. Yeah, but that’s 40 years.

MIKE HUCKABEE: President Trump deserves the credit for having closed the border.

TUCKER CARLSON: I love the fact that I campaigned for Trump because he said he would close the border. He did. Amen. Thank you, Trump. But we had Reagan, then we had Bush, then we had Clinton, then we had Bush again, then we had Obama. And then, you know, the other presidents.

And they all presided over my country’s total transformation from a nice, clean, affluent, orderly society into something pretty close to a third-world country. Actually, that’s not protecting us — that’s behaving with total contempt for my country.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You said a moment ago that we do more. Are you inferring that we do more for Israel than we do for ourselves? Do you believe that?

TUCKER CARLSON: No, I didn’t say we do more for Israel. But where’s the care? Where’s the concern? Where’s the “holy smokes, there are drug cartels in your neighborhood”? You’re telling me about the border with Lebanon and Hezbollah, or whatever you call it, in some Latin American country. I don’t care. There are drug cartels in my neighborhood. I know people who’ve died of fentanyl overdoses.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Where did the fentanyl come from? Probably from China.

TUCKER CARLSON: From Mexico.

MIKE HUCKABEE: From China through Mexico.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. The precursor chemicals they say come from China. I get it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And who’s in that axis with China? Iran.

TUCKER CARLSON: Larry Fink is in that axis with China. No, actually, the heads of our biggest corporations are in that axis with China. I don’t care about Iran at all. I care about America. And if blowing up Iran makes my country richer and safer, I’m for it. And if it doesn’t, I’m totally opposed. It’s that simple. I think most Americans feel that way.

The Iraq War and Israel’s Influence

MIKE HUCKABEE: I asked you a question a little bit ago you never got back to, because I think it’s an important one. I sense a tension with you — you feel like we do too much for Israel and we’re getting nothing from it. How many boots on the ground has the US placed on behalf of Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: However many went to Iraq. We did that for Israel.

MIKE HUCKABEE: No, I don’t think we did.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said we did it because of 9/11.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That was the US justification for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it wasn’t 9/11. So what was the actual reason?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, the US government told us it was for 9/11. They told us that Iraq was part of it, that they had weapons of mass destruction.

TUCKER CARLSON: Iraq was involved in 9/11 operations? There’s no evidence of that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Israel was not in that component.

TUCKER CARLSON: Israel had no influence on our decision to invade Iraq? That’s not what the people who made the decision say. They say Israel gave us that information about the fake weapons of mass destruction.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let me get back to the point. How many Americans put their boots on the ground for Israel? The answer is zero.

TUCKER CARLSON: Everybody who served in Iraq put their boots on the ground for Israel.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Did not.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where did we get the information about the weapons of mass destruction that wasn’t real?

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’re saying we got that from Israel? That Israel pushed us into that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, absolutely.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You really believe that?

TUCKER CARLSON: I know that for a fact, and so does every — this has been widely written about and discussed. And I’m not attacking Israel. They thought it was in their interest to take out a government that was paying the families of suicide bombers. I get it. I’m not mad at Israel about that. I never have been.

I’m mad at the Bush administration and all the people who went along with this to the detriment of my country. That’s who I’m mad at, not Israel. Bibi’s doing what he can for his country, whether you agree with him or not. I want my leaders to do the same for my country. That’s it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I would counter that Bibi Netanyahu does not want a war with Iran. To say that he wants a war — you know who’s going to be at the very front of that? His people. I’m with him enough to know he does not want a war.

TUCKER CARLSON: He doesn’t?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Does he think that there may be a necessity of going to war in order to prevent an attack on not just Israel? I don’t want to make that argument, but —

Netanyahu’s Access and the Iran Negotiations

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I know too much. Let’s be real. Steve Witkoff, in my opinion, is just a sterling guy — just a good guy.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Excellent. Good guy.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s my view. He’s kind of pro-American, couldn’t be nicer, and wants the right thing. He’s probably Trump’s best friend. He and maybe Jared, too, are involved in a negotiation with Iran.

MIKE HUCKABEE: With Iran, you mean.

TUCKER CARLSON: With Iran, yeah. I’m so sorry. And the Israeli government short-circuits it by hitting Iran.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What do you mean they short-circuited it by hitting Iran?

TUCKER CARLSON: They did everything they could to shut down the negotiations between the United States, the Trump administration, and Iran. And look, they’re acting in their own interest — but our country should also act in its own interest. That’s all I’m saying. So don’t tell me that Bibi doesn’t want a war with Iran.

MIKE HUCKABEE: He doesn’t. If Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff could be successful in getting the President’s demands — and keep in mind, these are the President’s demands —

TUCKER CARLSON: What are those demands?

MIKE HUCKABEE: No enrichment, no nuclear weapon. Quit killing your own people in the streets by the tens of thousands. You and I both agree that it’s a horrible thing to kill your own citizens, which Iran is doing.

TUCKER CARLSON: A horrible thing to kill anybody’s citizens.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Anybody’s citizens. We agree on that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Except that they’re 14-year-olds working for Hamas, but whatever — it’s still a tragedy. No, it is. Sorry, I’m being a jerk.

MIKE HUCKABEE: You really are being — I know, I know.

TUCKER CARLSON: I am such a jerk. Everyone knows that. I’m really trying.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Okay, okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but I agree with you 100%. Of course it’s a tragedy.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yes. That could be done, and I pray it can. And you know why? Number one, because it would be wonderful for everybody. Number two, if there is a war, you’re going to be 6,000 miles from it. You know where I’m going to be? In the bullseye. Do I want there to be a war? No. Do Israelis want there to be a war? No.

Israel’s Seven-Front War

TUCKER CARLSON: I keep hearing Israel is fighting a seven-front war right now. What are those seven fronts?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, you’ve got Lebanon, you have Egypt — now, Egypt is not an active war, but you have the Muslim Brotherhood within Egypt. You’ve got the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, you’ve got Syria —

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait, they’re fighting a war with Jordan?

MIKE HUCKABEE: With the Muslim Brotherhood that is in Jordan — not directly with Jordan, not the government of Jordan.

TUCKER CARLSON: But are they —

MIKE HUCKABEE: You’ve got Hezbollah, you’ve got Lebanon, Houthis in Yemen, you have Hamas in Gaza, you have the threats that come from Iran. How many is that?

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s seven.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s seven. Okay, I’ll give you an eighth one — the media. There’s an eighth front war they fight.

TUCKER CARLSON: How many journalists has Israel killed in Gaza?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Over 200, it seems like.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Now, are they real journalists? Because a lot of those people who were supposedly journalists were actually documented Hamas fighters. So that’s why I ask — how many are actual journalists?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know, but a lot of them were. I mean, they worked for big news organizations and they had “PRESS” written on their chest.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, some of them had UNRWA cars and they were also working for Hamas.

TUCKER CARLSON: So do you think that over 200 journalists killed in Gaza are all fake journalists who deserved to be killed?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I have no idea what the total number is. I don’t have their credentials, but I know that quite a few were actually Hamas fighters who protected Hamas. Ask the hostages. The hostages came back and started telling about the number of people that were doctors in hospitals who held them hostage in their homes, or the number of people who were pretending to be journalists who were actually holding them hostage. Someone is telling you that there’s a lot more to this story.

Christians in the Holy Land and Palestinian Rights

TUCKER CARLSON: As someone whose tax dollars helped pay for killing all the civilians in Gaza, I feel like I have a right to know how many were killed. And Israel won’t let outside observers in to figure it out. And I’m frustrated when I say that.

My last question is about Christians, both Christians who visit and Christians who live here, particularly in the West Bank. I spoke to someone recently, a Christian minister who grew up in a town right outside Bethlehem. We would know it as Shepherd’s Field in the New Testament, where the shepherds were tending their flocks in Matthew. And of course, the angels come and announce the arrival of Jesus in nearby Bethlehem.

His family’s been Christian, he says, for 2,000 years. He says where he grew up is now surrounded by settlements of people who are not from Israel at all. A lot of them are from the United States, Jewish settlements. They have different roads that the native Christians are not allowed to use. I don’t quite know how that works.

And he described a story where his mother was shot outside their house by an IDF soldier for reasons no one ever explained. She survived, but no one was ever punished for it or even explained why they did it. He basically described being terrorized by settlers. And I wonder if that’s a concern for you, for the native population, the indigenous population.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Did you say this happened in Bethlehem?

TUCKER CARLSON: It happened in Shepherd’s Field. So it’s a Christian village. Beit Sahur, I think, is its name.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Outside.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right outside Bethlehem.

MIKE HUCKABEE: If it’s in Bethlehem —

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s not in Bethlehem. It’s, again, I think it’s Beit Sahur, I believe, is the name of the village —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — because there are no Israelis in Bethlehem. None. There are no Jews in Bethlehem.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are there new settlements outside Bethlehem where he is from?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Over in Area C, but not in Area A? There are none.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, he describes the town he grew up in. And I wonder why a Christian whose family’s been there for 2,000 years —

MIKE HUCKABEE: There are Palestinian Christians throughout. But why in Samaria? That’s true. I’ve been over to visit them regularly.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know you have. And some have been —

MIKE HUCKABEE: — we’ve advocated for some that are Muslim, but they’re American citizens. And we advocated because there was —

TUCKER CARLSON: But why can’t they just drive into Jerusalem to go to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? Why do they need a permit to do that if they’re from there?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because of the acts of terrorism that has made it impossible to do it. You know how many suicide — Christians, you ask this question, so what do we do? Just say, “You’re a Christian.” “Oh, yeah, I’m a Christian.” But you’re wearing a suicide bomb.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do Christians do suicide bombs?

MIKE HUCKABEE: They could if all they have to do is just announce, “I’m a Christian.” There were over a thousand — why don’t I just get an identity —

TUCKER CARLSON: — card that says I’m Christian?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let me just finish this. Before Israel put the Green Line up and before they took great care to put checkpoints in place, there were over a thousand suicide bombers in one year.

TUCKER CARLSON: It was awful.

MIKE HUCKABEE: In one year.

TUCKER CARLSON: I remember it, but I don’t think any of them were Christians.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They may not have been. Okay, but my point is —

TUCKER CARLSON: — we could find out if they were.

MIKE HUCKABEE: So you’re saying we just — if they come up and say, “I’m a Christian, I just want to go to the Holy Sepulchre, let me in.”

TUCKER CARLSON: What I’m saying is that Christians have a right to go to the Holy Sepulchre. Israel does not own it. They’ve had possession of it since 1967. It doesn’t belong to Bibi. It belongs to me and you and every other Christian.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Bibi was probably a young person. I’m not even sure he was —

TUCKER CARLSON: No Christian should ever be barred from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Should Christians be barred from Joseph’s Tomb in Nablus?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. Let’s just start with the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. And I don’t understand on what grounds they are.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But they can go to —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, they can’t if they’re Christians at Beit Sahur. So I don’t understand why they’re a threat. They’re not a threat. And why won’t you, as the Christian minister and U.S. Ambassador to the State of Israel, say to the Prime Minister, “You can’t allow this. Your country exists in part because American Christians support you. So you have to treat us —”

Advocating for American Christians Abroad

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, part of the problem, Tucker, is that in the Palestinian Authority — and that’s what we’re talking about — there are Christians. Look, I know some Christians who live in Bethlehem, and that is Area A. Bethlehem was 80-plus percent Christian before Oslo. 80% Christian, less than 20% Muslim. Today it’s flipped. It’s now 80-plus percent Muslim, very few Christian. And some of the Christians that I personally know and know well are Zionists. Let that surprise you.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re Zionists? Hardcore Zionists?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Some are. Let me finish my train of thought here. So in the Palestinian Authority, they still teach children from the time they’re five years old that the greatest thing in the world is to kill Jews, and that if they end up being a martyr and if they kill Jews, they will get a pension for life if they die, and if they don’t, they’ll get a paycheck for life and their families will too. And it’s called the Prisoners and Martyrs Fund. We call it “pay for slay” in the U.S. It is against our law.

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot of Christians collecting on that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Zero. So my question remains, and I’m a little bit frustrated at this point because I’m not defending Hamas. I hate suicide bombing. I hate violence. I hate the killing of children, period. Why can’t a Christian who was born there, whose family’s been there for 2,000 years, following Jesus for 2,000 years, drive — because it’s really close — to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre? He poses no threat. And why can’t the United States government advocate for him to do that?

MIKE HUCKABEE: We do advocate for Americans because that’s our job. And it doesn’t matter whether they’re Palestinian or Israeli. We do that. But as far as when they —

TUCKER CARLSON: How many Americans are being held in Israeli prisons right now? Total?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t have an exact number on that. I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: How can you advocate for them if you don’t know how many there are?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, everyone that we know, we go visit. Our consular goes there almost every week and visits the Americans. It’s not a large number as far as Americans, but when we have them, we go. We go to their trials when they’re on trial. So, yeah, we do a lot more than you’ve given us credit for.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I’m giving you credit. Please.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Because we don’t get much. No, we don’t get much.

TUCKER CARLSON: By the way, not every embassy does that. I happen to know for a fact they don’t advocate for Americans in jail.

MIKE HUCKABEE: We take our consular services across into the Palestinian Authority and help people over there. Some of those are Christians, some are not, some are Muslim. But if they’re Americans and they have American citizenship and an American passport, we help them.

TUCKER CARLSON: That makes me so happy to hear.

Security Concerns vs. Christian Rights

MIKE HUCKABEE: I go to Ramallah. I sit down with the vice president and the prime minister of the Palestinian Authority. We try to work ways to make things better. But the reason that sometimes it’s not just an absolute free passage — I’ll tell you why. Because there are too many incidences of terrorist acts, and Israel is not going to allow themselves —

TUCKER CARLSON: But the Christians didn’t do it, and they’re not going to do it. And Christians pay for all of this. They pay for a lot of this.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s formal. It’s fair. You can say it’s unfair. But here’s —

TUCKER CARLSON: You can’t punish the innocent.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But you have to somehow make sure that you screen people. And that’s why the checkpoints. Let me tell you what happened not too very long ago. We had a humanitarian aid truck that came across from Jordan. The driver was supposedly vetted. He was a former Jordanian military person. He came across the checkpoint. Everything should be fine, right? He gets out of his truck, he takes a gun and he shoots two of the people at the Israeli checkpoint, one of whom was a young person less than a year in the job. His mother teaches in the American school where our embassy people go in Herzliya. I get to make the phone call to the mother. I’m going to tell you something. It was not the most pleasant day of my life.

TUCKER CARLSON: It sounds awful.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It is awful. And so those kinds of incidences are the reason that it is difficult to go from Judea, Samaria, or the West Bank — call it whatever you want. But if you’re in Area A, which is under the control of the Palestinian Authority, and your education has been that killing Jews is a wonderful thing —

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m talking about the Christians.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But the Christians, if they go to those schools, they’re still going to get that education.

TUCKER CARLSON: When was the last time there was a suicide bomb detonated by a Christian?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Never. Let me ask you this —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Look, I’m not trying to defend it, but I’m saying to you that if the curriculum doesn’t get changed, if the pay for slay doesn’t get changed — you say it doesn’t apply. Maybe it never has happened. I don’t know whether it has ever happened.

The Question of Palestinian Rights and Statehood

TUCKER CARLSON: When will Palestinians in the West Bank have the same rights as Israelis in the West Bank?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Are you talking about the ones that live in the Palestinian Authority?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m talking about people who live in the villages they grew up in, that changed hands, went from one government to another.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It makes a difference whether they live under the Palestinian Authority government or whether they live under Israeli. If they live under Area A, do you know the difference? I do. I’m saying if they live under Area A, they live under the Palestinian Authority government. They don’t live under the Israeli government.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s controlled by the Israeli government completely. There’s no airport. They control the utilities. I mean, this is silly. I understand there’s a form of self-government, but the big decisions are made by the Israeli government. Obviously, I’ve been there. I know this and you know it too.

So how long does this go on? You say that God gave the nation of Israel the right to this land. Why not just take it, declare it Israel, and make everyone a citizen? I don’t understand why that’s not happening.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Well, there are people who think that that would be a much better —

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, what do you think?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think it very well could be. And if you ask certain people living in the Palestinian Authority under their very corrupt government — where 91% of the people think the government is hopelessly corrupt, that’s what the numbers are — they would tell you that they would be better off if the Israelis were the governing authority.

TUCKER CARLSON: Everyone gets voting rights?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Would that be the case if they were all under Israeli authority? Do you realize there are lots of Arab Israelis?

TUCKER CARLSON: I know.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And they vote. They serve in the Knesset.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m very aware of that. And I’m just wondering —

MIKE HUCKABEE: And they serve on the Supreme Court. And did you know that it was an Arab who sentenced a former president and prime minister to prison?

TUCKER CARLSON: I know this. I just want to know what’s going to happen.

MIKE HUCKABEE: How many Jews get to help govern Saudi Arabia or Qatar or Syria?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not attacking Jews.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s a much more open government and society, and you make it sound like —

Christians in Israel, Two-State Solution, and Closing Thoughts

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just asking. No, I’m not attacking the nation of Israel. I’m just wondering what the plan is. So I’ve been hearing my whole life how bad the PA is. Okay, great, but what’s the plan here? So they’re moving all these Americans, people from around the world, into settlements subsidized by Americans in the West Bank.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Now, they’re not moving them from around the world to the settlements. They’re people who make aliyah. They come. These are Israelis who live in Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, there are a lot of people.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And Area C is Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay, but does it remain a territory under military control forever? Does it just become part of the state?

MIKE HUCKABEE: You talk about the Palestinian Authority, correct? That’s the big question. Do you believe in a two-state solution? And if you do, I would show you a map and I would ask you, because this is —

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. I don’t know what I think. I just think you need to treat people like human beings. And that’s not happening, obviously.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And that would be — you don’t glorify their killing. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let them go to their church if they want.

MIKE HUCKABEE: See the yellow parts?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

MIKE HUCKABEE: That’s Palestinian Authority. The tan parts, that’s Area B. That’s the area that is mixed. Israel has military authority, but the Palestinians can live anywhere they want to in there. And the blue area, that’s Area C. Area C is Israel. And Israelis can live in Israel. That’s what it is.

Now when people say they want a two-state solution, I love to show them a map like this. And I ask them, where does that state line up? There is no continuous way.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know why it works. We’ve got a lot of states in the United States that need help. So I’m not going to weigh in on other people’s states, to be totally honest. I just don’t want to pay for it anymore and just want to fix our own country.

But let me ask you one last question, which is how Christians are treated in Jerusalem. I’ve talked to so many who’ve been spit on.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Really? So many. How many?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, two yesterday.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Two. Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: Both Catholic clergy and both told me the same thing. Anglican clergy I interviewed.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I just had dinner recently with a Greek patriarch.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, there’s been a million stories about this.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, I know there are instances where Christians get heckled. Usually it’s people who are wearing clerical robes and they’re wearing crosses, and it shouldn’t happen. It’s horrible. It’s as bad as spitting on somebody wearing a kippah in New York City. Terrible.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s horrible. And actually, to be fair, I just learned this — there is a Jewish Israeli group that keeps track of Christians being spit on in Jerusalem because they’re offended by it. And God bless them for keeping track and for being offended by it. But there are an awful lot of examples of that. And my question to you — you’re against it, of course.

MIKE HUCKABEE: As a Christian clergy, horribly against it. So is the prime minister, the president, the foreign minister. I think no thinking person would defend that.

TUCKER CARLSON: But what is it? Why are they spitting on Christians?

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s very limited. It’s very, very isolated.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where does it come from?

MIKE HUCKABEE: For the most part, as Christians, we have freedom of movement here, Tucker. I go to church every Sunday. I play bass guitar in my church band.

TUCKER CARLSON: I get it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t get hassled being a Christian. Everyone here knows I’m the first evangelical to be ambassador to Israel. Do you think they hate me here? No.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are evangelicals recognized by the state of Israel?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yeah, they are. And welcomed and appreciated.

TUCKER CARLSON: No, but like, as a religious — like, are there evangelical churches in Israel?

MIKE HUCKABEE: My gosh, yes. There are 184,000 Christians in Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know, I know.

MIKE HUCKABEE: And much larger than —

TUCKER CARLSON: But there are churches that are non-denominational evangelical here?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Of course there are. And it ranges — when you say non-denominational, some of them are affiliated Baptist, Assembly of God. Some of them are truly non-denominational Pentecostal. Some are messianic churches where most of the people are ethnically Jewish, but they are messianic — they believe in Jesus. There are a lot of those churches and they’re spread out all over Israel. There’s freedom.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know a lot of Christians in Israel, by the way.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: And as I said, I really hope I can come back and talk to more, but —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Come to church with me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I definitely would like that.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Why not?

TUCKER CARLSON: And I mean it too.

Why Are Christians Being Spit On?

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would people spit on — like, where does that come from?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I think it’s from an evil heart.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

MIKE HUCKABEE: What else would it be?

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I mean, I don’t think anybody would ever spit on another person. I don’t care what a person’s religion is or what a person’s nationality is. I don’t hate anybody. I wouldn’t spit on anybody. I wouldn’t heckle anyone. And I find it repulsive. Nothing about it is defensible.

TUCKER CARLSON: I will say — this was off camera — but I interviewed this Christian leader here and I said, “Oh, that’s so awful.” And he goes, “You know, I feel blessed because Jesus was spit on. And it’s an opportunity for humility for me.” And I thought, wow, that’s a Christian.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Let me say this. I’ve been coming in and out of Jerusalem and Israel for — well, soon to be 50 years. Three years before I came as ambassador, I made over 100 trips here. I’ve never been spat on. I’ve never had someone yell at me. I’ve never had an experience where I felt uncomfortable or that I was unwelcome.

TUCKER CARLSON: If you spit on someone wearing a yarmulke in New York City, you go right to jail. They would not put up with that for one second. And they do put up with it here because it still happens.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m sure they do go to jail in New York City. They should. And they should go to jail here.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m against it.

MIKE HUCKABEE: They should go to jail here.

Christian Ministers, Preaching About Jesus, and Religious Freedom

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen. So there were all these Christian ministers who were brought over here — evangelicals in December — and I think mostly to attack me, but also probably they had other —

MIKE HUCKABEE: Oh, they really weren’t here to attack you.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m just joking. They were attacking me, but whatever. Yeah, but they were flown over by the state. The state paid for it, and they had a conference here. I got one of the guides that they received when they arrived, and I think it’s real. And it says, “Don’t preach about Jesus when you’re in Israel. We don’t allow that. Don’t do that.”

MIKE HUCKABEE: Really? Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would a Christian minister agree not to preach about Jesus?

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m not sure, because I’ve never heard someone tell another Christian minister not to do that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Interesting.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I mean, I’m totally baffled. What would be the purpose of going to church as a Christian if you didn’t talk about Jesus?

TUCKER CARLSON: Agree more. Thank you.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I can assure you that the church I attend, we talk about Jesus. We pray in the name of Jesus. No, I don’t get it.

TUCKER CARLSON: To anyone outside the church — are you allowed, like, could I stand on the corner and just tell people about Jesus here?

MIKE HUCKABEE: You could. I’m not saying you’d get applause or that people would —

TUCKER CARLSON: Right, that’s fine.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But I’m saying there are people that —

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s no law against that, though.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Not that I’m aware of. The only laws that I know of — you can’t proselytize someone under the age of 18. And you cannot offer people things of value in order to cause them to listen to your presentation. For example, I can’t say, “Hey, for $10, would you let me give you this gospel tract?” Can’t do that. I don’t know if it’s enforced. I’m not sure. I don’t ever hear anyone arrested for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: But there’s no law against just, like, preaching?

MIKE HUCKABEE: Walk down to the Old City, you’ll hear people out there preaching on the street. Now, are they effective? I don’t know. I’m not sure that people are stopping and falling on their knees and saying, “This is what I’ve been waiting for.” I don’t know.

But what I’m telling you is that the idea that you can’t say it — I know that there are plenty of places in the rest of this region where you can’t do that for sure. In Qatar, you can’t wear a cross in public. You can’t pray in public.

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot of people wearing crosses in Qatar.

MIKE HUCKABEE: But in Qatar —

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know what the laws are. Yeah.

The UAE as a Model of Religious Tolerance

MIKE HUCKABEE: In Saudi Arabia — don’t think so. I doubt it. The one exception is the Emiratis. And I love those folks because they are so progressive and they’re doing so many things to change the template. They have an Abraham House that is a combination synagogue, church, and mosque. That’s pretty amazing, isn’t it — that they have the same building and they use it for all three of the major religions of the world. I think that’s incredible.

But they’re really trying to do things that are beyond what anyone else in the region is doing. They changed their textbooks. They teach that Israel is not a nation they should hate or seek to annihilate. They’ve done some remarkable things.

TUCKER CARLSON: They have a Hindu temple in Abu Dhabi. You’ve been following all this hate-the-Muslim stuff going on in the United States on the right.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I hear some of it, and it’s unpleasant. We shouldn’t hate anybody.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen.

MIKE HUCKABEE: It’s not a good thing. Hate is an evil thing. Sometimes you say, “I don’t support child killing.” Okay, I don’t either. But I don’t support hate in any form. I think it’s a horrible thing.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is such a great standard, and I want to hold myself to that. Thank you for saying that out loud.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I don’t hate you.

Closing

TUCKER CARLSON: I hope not. Governor, Ambassador, thank you very much for spending all this time. Thank you.

MIKE HUCKABEE: I’m glad you came. Please come back. Come with me to some places and to church. I want you to see that as Christians, we’re pretty free here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amen.

MIKE HUCKABEE: Appreciate it. Thank you, and welcome.

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