On Purpose Podcast: w/ Alex Honnold on his Upcoming Taipei 101 Free-Solo (Transcript)

I worked in my climbing gym when I was a kid and I worked a little bit on the side, but no, basically I would just been trying to climb my whole life.

The First Real Challenge

JAY SHETTY: Well, what was the first climb that you did that was challenging and risky or some sort of real—

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, I think as I started to dabble outdoors because I grew up in suburban California, in Sacramento. And so I would just ride my bicycle to the climbing gym. And so for the first eight years of my climbing life is just going climbing in the gym.

So I mean it’s super fun and you can learn all the skills that way, but it’s not particularly extreme or anything. It’s not what people think of as adventure. And then once I learned how to drive and then started borrowing the family car and started going outside more, then I started having some of the adventures that I think characterize what people think of as extreme rock climbing and all that.

What Brings Joy

JAY SHETTY: What’s the experience for you? Is it the thrill? Is it the fascination? What part of it gives you life and brings you alive? What part of it gives you joy?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, I think at the core is just the movement of climbing. I literally just came here from the climbing gym because I had a little time.

JAY SHETTY: You could see on your hands.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, yeah, I didn’t wash my hands but—but yeah, it’s like there’s a climbing gym relatively nearby and I was like, oh, perfect. So just a quick session, basically just rapid fired problems around the gym, bouldering gym. So just short and safe and I just did an hour as fast as I could and now I’m tired and I’m like, what a nice day.

So it’s really just the movement of climbing I think is at the core—that’s the joy of it. But then beyond that there’s the challenge, overcoming fears as a professional climber. I mean the travel involved in it, seeing the world, being outdoors in nature, having beautiful experiences with all your friends.

I mean there are all these other things that are amazing about climbing, but I think the thing that always brings me back is just climbing. It’s like running or swimming or other sort of elemental movement patterns. It just feels good to do the thing.

The Skill of Climbing

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Tell me about the actual skill of climbing for someone who isn’t a climber.

ALEX HONNOLD: You haven’t climbed at all?

JAY SHETTY: I have. I don’t think I’ve climbed at all. I’m trying to think about it in my life. I don’t think I’ve ever climbed. And so I would love to understand—talk to me about the actual skill of climbing as if you were training me.

ALEX HONNOLD: Even as a kid, you never climbed on things?

JAY SHETTY: Of course, I love climbing on things. I wanted to do parkour. My parents would never let me. Parkour was my fascination. I saw kids doing parkour. I was like, that’s so cool. I love climbing trees. I love climbing walls.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: So I think climbed a lot of gates. I’ve climbed like that, but I’ve never—

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, I think that’s the same thing, basically. And that’s actually, I think, one of the interesting things with this building thing coming up. People are like, why would you climb a building? I’m kind of like, well, as a kid, I climbed all the buildings around my home. I climbed all the trees. I fell out of trees quite a lot.

JAY SHETTY: Me too.

ALEX HONNOLD: And I’m kind of like—

JAY SHETTY: Dislocated my wrist doing that.

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah, I broke my arm three times as a kid falling off play structures and once in the climbing gym. But yeah, I mean, basically, most kids, it feels like, love that kind of play. And I think it’s pretty normal to play on things in that way.

And so it’s interesting that now as an adult, people like, why would you do that? And you’re kind of like, because it’s awesome. Because it’s so fun. It’s the same reason the kids like to do that, because it’s cool.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I still love a ropes course if I have it, but I get the play bit. But what are the skills that you’ve had to build to actually be able to do this professionally? Because there’s a difference between, I love the play and then, I’m going to climb the 11th tallest building in the world. What’s the training? What’s the skill level? Talk to me about the mastery from zero to where you are today. What are the steps that it’s taken?

Building Mastery

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, yeah, in some ways, you just go and do the thing all the time and you get better at it. On the other hand, it’s like, I’ve been climbing probably five days a week for 30 years. And so you’re like, oh, you’re bound to slowly get better at something if you put that much effort into it.

But yeah, I mean, I guess it comes down to movement. How well do you move your body, transferring your weight over your feet. In theory, your legs should be driving you for most things. I mean, people think of climbing as pulling with your arms. But really you should think of it as climbing a steep, steep staircase.

So you should be driving with your legs and you should be using your hands almost like you were on the handrail, for balance. Obviously, if a climb is more than vertical, then you have to hang on with your arms more. But still, you should be driving as much as you can through your feet.

So it comes down to technique and body position—where you, how you used your hips, all that kind of stuff. But in some ways, I think that overcomplicates it, though. It’s really, you just go and you try. You just go climbing.

JAY SHETTY: I love how casual you make it sound when I’m thinking—in my head, I’m thinking, well, you never skip leg day because you need to work on that. Are there certain muscle groups that you just need to be proficient at and prolific at so that you can be a better climber?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, climbing is very full body. So it’s basically use everything. I mean, if you could just turn the dials on something. If you could turn your finger strength to infinity, then you’d be a great climber. Basically, if you can hold on to things very, very well, then basically you can climb well.

JAY SHETTY: How do you build your finger strength?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, sadly, finger strength is probably my biggest weakness as a climber. It’s probably the one thing that—it’s probably the thing that I’m worse at overall, especially compared to my peers, other professional climbers.

I’ve always been sort of better with sort of full body. I think I have good technique, and so I can transfer a lot of weight to my feet and sort of keep them off my fingers. Because my fingers aren’t that strong.

But in general, you build finger strength the same way you build any other strength. You basically load your fingers. And finger strength is actually your forearm strength. It’s your—because you control your hand through your forearm.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, grip strength.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, grip strength. And so you just build that by hanging from small edges or hanging with more weight on you. Just, you build up.

JAY SHETTY: How many hours do you spend training per week?

Managing Fear Through Practice

ALEX HONNOLD: I can probably spend three to five hours in a session climbing, and I can do that maybe five days a week or so. But that doesn’t totally do, you know, some of the days that I go, quote unquote, climbing, I’m going soloing in the mountains or something. And so of that time, a chunk of it is hiking into the thing, some of it’s climbing the thing, some of it’s like eating lunch on top and trying to figure out where the next, how to get off the mountain or whatever, you know what I mean?

Like, sometimes you can have a six or eight hour day in the mountains and you’re kind of like strolling, but it’s all very low intensity. You’re kind of like wandering through the mountains and figuring out what you’re doing. It’s not like Michael Phelps training in the pool or something. You know what I mean? You’re like wandering around the mountains, like slightly confused, trying to figure out. And I mean, sometimes you walk into the mountains, it turns out it’s cold and raining, and then you walk back and you’re kind of like, well, I didn’t actually climb anything. And that’s just the way it goes when you count like hours of training.

And actually so in the past, I used to have a training journal where I did keep track of hours, and now I don’t really keep track of time because that’s not really the best metric. I don’t think it’s more around effort and, you know, like, what you’ve actually done. Yeah, it’s like, because some days you spend a ton of time, but you don’t do that much. And then other days in a couple hours, you can get completely destroyed because you’re going super hard.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. What’s been your favorite place you’ve got lost?

ALEX HONNOLD: That’s a good question. I don’t know. I mean, I live in Las Vegas and Red Rock Conservation Area is like this big world famous climbing destination, like just outside of town. And I live near it and I climb in Red Rock all the time and I still get lost all the time. Like really complicated sandstone canyons, like folds of rock and, you know, tricky. It’s just, yeah, I mean, it’s crazy because every season I’m like, where’d the trail go? I’m like, oh, I live here and I hike this all the time. And I’m like, how am I still lost? But, you know, that’s the joy of being outdoors, really.

JAY SHETTY: When you were talking about the mindset as well, you were saying half of it is, you know, the beauty of the landscape or the rock formation. And you said the other half is just your fascination with overcoming fear and the mindset piece. I imagine being lost while doing something you love is quite a special feeling. It seems that you’ve made friends with.

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, I’ve never really, actually, there only been a couple times I’ve been like, lost, lost. Like once actually climbing a thing in South Africa I thought I was going to have to drop into, now I forget what’s the neighboring country to the north. We were right on the border, like north of Johannesburg. I forget what the next country north is.

But basically I thought I was going to have to drop over the border into another country, basically go find a village, because we were up on a mountain basically, and you could see villages off in the distance. But I was like, couldn’t find my way back to where I was supposed to. And it was kind of like, I’m just going to go fully rogue here and just have to borrow somebody’s phone and try to find a way to contact the people that I’m supposed to be.

But ultimately I found my way eventually, showed up hours late and totally torn to shreds from, like crawling through the bushes all confused. But so I’ve only had a few experiences like that where I’m lost, lost. For the most part, you always have a sense of where you’re supposed to be going. You’re just not on the trail or, you know, you can’t find the best way. Yeah, but that is, I mean, that is kind of the joy of climbing is you just have tons of experiences like that where you’re like, I’m doing some crazy thing.

The Neuroscience of Fear

JAY SHETTY: I read that in 2016, neuroscientists conducted a brain scan and found that your amygdala responded much less to fear than the average person. Did you always feel that way growing up?

ALEX HONNOLD: No, but, well, so this is part of a longer thing, but I would suspect that your amygdala probably responds less to fear than the average person. Just in the same way, like, years of meditation will do the same thing. It’s like you’re just not going to respond to stimulus in the same way.

And so for me, I see that as basically, I’ve been getting afraid. I’ve been consistently experiencing fear all the time as a climber for years. And so then the test they did for that particular brain scan, you know, you’re in fMRI, and then you look at these black and white photos and I’m like, well, obviously looking at photos while I’m lying down inside a sealed tube is just not scary. You know, if you spend your whole life getting scared all the time, that’s not scary.

And in the same way that I’m sure if somebody scans your brain, it’s going to be different than average because you spent a ton of time working on it. Basically, you’re kind of like, that seems totally reasonable. You know, it’s like, I don’t know, it’s a shame because there’s a scene in Free Solo, you know, they show a little clip from that when, and basically everyone watching the movie comes out of like, well, there’s something wrong with his brain. And you’re like, no. The takeaway is that if you practice something your whole life, you get better at it. It’s like, that’s the real lesson.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that, I mean, now looking at it from your perspective, that makes a lot of sense in that you’re right that when you’re doing those tests, it will rarely be as scary as something you’ve done in reality.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I mean, it’s like I get tons of questions around fear and, like, managing fear and all that. And, you know, my answers have obviously, like, changed over time. And I’ve, like, thought about fear a ton in my life and now, honestly, I’m always like, you know, it’s been 30 years. I’ve been climbing all the time. And climbing is really scary.

Like, you’re always scared, at least a little bit as a climber, because there was consequences in climbing. Even if you’re climbing with a rope and you’re using protection, you’re still always a little bit on edge because, you know, you’re like, what if the rope cut? Like, what if, you know, I didn’t tie my knot? Like, there are always these what ifs? And so you’re always a little bit afraid.

And so I think that it changes your relationship with fear because you’re just scared all the time. I mean, you know, not like deep fear, but there’s always an edge to it. And so I think that puts all the other fear in life sort of in perspective. You know, it gets you good at managing fear because you experience it a lot.

Fear as a Neutral Sensation

JAY SHETTY: How do you moderate it or regulate it? In that moment when you’ve got to place the next step, you’ve got to reach for something else. You’ve got to keep moving. Because I think that’s, you’re spot on. By the way, I love the way you’re talking about fear because I think you’re absolutely right that if you’re constantly in a state of discomfort, but you have the right mindset because a lot of people in the state of discomfort, but then they overthink or they procrastinate or they get stuck.

ALEX HONNOLD: I think it’s like, if it’s their first time in a state of discomfort, then it’s pretty overwhelming. But if you’re used to that state of discomfort, you’re kind of like, oh, it’s just another day, you know? And I think that’s the thing with climbing, is that a lot of the time, you know, you’re a little bit scared, but you just totally ignore it.

Because the rational part of your mind is like, this is fine. Like your harness is on, like, everything is safe, the rope is safe, you’re totally fine. And so you just ignore it. But then occasionally you’re like, oh, I’m scared because I’m in danger. And so then you’re kind of like, oh, I should think about this and sort of evaluate, like, is, you know, am I going to be okay? Is it, should I take different actions? Should I try to mitigate this in some way?

So, I mean, you know, it totally depends. But that’s the thing as a climber is you’re constantly balancing those kinds of things. Like, is this fear well founded? Should I act upon it in some way? Should I do something? Should I not? You know?

JAY SHETTY: And so your relation with fear seems just very neutral in the sense of you having a conversation with it. It’s like every other.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I sometimes, I mean, fear is a sensation in your body, same as lots of other things. And so I’ve used this analogy before, but I’m kind of like, it’s like hunger, you know, when you experience hunger, you’re not like, oh my God, I’m hungry, I need a sandwich right now. You’re just kind of like, okay, I should eat at some point.

And I feel like, I think because people experience fear much less frequently, it feels more overwhelming. But, you know, if you experience fear with the same regularity that you experience hunger, then you’re kind of like, okay, like, I’ll deal with that in due time. Like, when it makes sense, I’ll manage that. But fundamentally, feeling fear is just feeling some sensations in your body or so. Like, it’s not like, doesn’t matter more or less than any other thing that you feel in your body really, unless it’s telling you you’re about to die, in which case you should pay attention.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that what you just said about the more frequently you are exposed to fear, the less fear affects you. And does that translate from the physical sensation to when you’re having emotional, relational challenges as well?

ALEX HONNOLD: Probably less so than my wife wishes, you know? You know, I think it does a little bit, probably because, you know, to some extent, managing fear is managing fear. Yes. But it is a little bit of what you practice. Like, I think I’m really good at dealing with, like, physical fear, like, physical risk and things where I’m like, I feel like I’m in danger.

Less so, I mean, public speaking I was horrified of for a long time. But again, with tons of practice, it’s gotten much more comfortable. It’s fine. And then, like, relationship old stuff, I’m sort of like, well, that’s, I mean, my wife would say there’s still a long ways to go.

Public Speaking Versus Physical Fear

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Talk to me about the difference between, like, the fear of what you do, which most of us would see as that is scary, and then public speaking, which is known as one of the scariest things to do, I mean, on planet Earth. Like, talk to me about the difference.

ALEX HONNOLD: No, I think it’s really similar. I mean, I think most people are, I mean, I was definitely more afraid of public speaking than climbing, but obviously, you know, I love climbing. I spent my whole life doing it. But public speaking is horrifying, though.

That said, now that I’ve had a lot of practice with it, I would say that it’s not that scary. Whereas climbing still always has some edge to it because fundamentally, you could die. You know, with public speaking, it, like, feels like you might die, but you’re just, you know, it’s fine. Like, you can always go out and, like, make a fool yourself, and it doesn’t really matter.

JAY SHETTY: Well, that’s what I’m saying. Right. Like, the reason why we get scared of doing things that, where there isn’t a cost is because we almost make it out like there is a higher stake to it.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. But I think that with a little bit of practice, you realize that there just isn’t that high of a stake. Like, you know, when you haven’t done it before, you’re like, what if they laugh at you? And then you’re like, what if they do? Like, who cares? You know, it turns out it’s totally fine. Doesn’t matter. You know, but with some of the physical fear stuff, you’re kind of like, well, I mean, it does matter if you fall to your death or, you know, so those, you know, that will always have some edge to it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: You know, so those, you know, that will always have some edge to it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. And so how do you process that in the moment when those, when that’s what you’re thinking?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, it depends. Sometimes, you know, first take some deep breaths, compose yourself. Sort of like, try to deal. I mean, the thing with climbing is that there’s never any time pressure to it. So you can just stand there, basically.

JAY SHETTY: Wow.

ALEX HONNOLD: You know, even if you’re clinging to the rock, maintaining a static position is typically not that hard. So you can just hold on, take some deep breaths, take your time, get composed, and then try to decide whether or not—you know, sometimes you get really scared for no particular reason, and then other times you’re kind of like, “Oh, it turns out that I misjudged the rock quality, and this is much more dangerous than I thought it was.” And maybe I should bail.

And so, I mean, I’ve bailed off all kinds of things where you climb partway up something, you’re like, “This is not for me,” and you just climb back down.

JAY SHETTY: That’s interesting to hear. So you’re okay with knowing your edge and knowing your limit?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, the thing with free soloing is that you always have to stay well within your limits. You know, because when you’re climbing with a rope, you’re always trying to push yourself beyond your limits so that you can learn and grow and everything. But if you’re free soloing, you stay well within your comfort zone because obviously, you just can’t fall off.

JAY SHETTY: And that’s what this next climb is, right?

Preparing for the Taipei 101 Climb

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, this next climb is free soloing. But it should be—I mean, it’s interesting. It should be well within my physical comfort zone. Like, you know, I should be able to physically climb it. But the sort of exciting thing for me is that I’ve just never climbed a building like that before. And so I think even though I’m very confident in my physical ability to do it, I’m still kind of like, “Well, I’m doing a new thing.” And so that’s always a little bit exciting.

JAY SHETTY: Yes. Yeah, I love that as well. I feel like what I really appreciate with how we’re talking about fear right now and through your reflection on it, is that there’s a sense of recognizing that anytime I do something new, I’ll feel a sense of discomfort or fear. And that’s a good thing.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Because that means I’m trying something new.

Fear Versus Excitement

ALEX HONNOLD: That’s the whole thing. Are you experiencing fear? Are you experiencing nervousness or excitement? Because a lot of those things are the same sensation in your body. Really. You’re like, “Oh, I’m a little nervous or I’m feeling butterflies and I feel tingling and I’m on edge and I feel heightened.” And you’re like, “Am I afraid or am I excited?” I don’t know. I mean, it’s hard to exactly pinpoint some of those kinds of things.

And so I think you just don’t want to put too fine a point on it. I know that when I get to the bottom of the building, actually, surprisingly, the first move off the ground is one of the harder moves on the climb. And you kind of have to jump up and catch this thing and start climbing. And basically taking the first step on a building is one of the hardest.

And I’m sure I’m going to be a little nervous and a little tight and just kind of like, “Oh, this is”—you know, with cameras and people and a whole spectacle—it’s just going to be crazy. Yeah, it’s just going to be, you know, I’m nervous, but does that mean I’m scared? I mean, we’ll see. I don’t think so, but I think it’ll be exciting for sure.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. No, I mean, not that I’ve done anything that I think is that hard, but anything I’ve ever done for the first time—

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, it’s scary.

JAY SHETTY: Even if I’ve done it for a long time, it’s still nerve-wracking. Like I said, not comparing anything at all. But yes, for me, if I was going into a longer meditation than I’ve ever done before—

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, a new step. Absolutely.

JAY SHETTY: I’m still nervous.

ALEX HONNOLD: And again, what is the longest meditation you’ve done? What’s considered a long meditation?

The Practice of Extended Meditation

JAY SHETTY: So we would do a minimum of four to eight hours a day in blocks or something, in full chunks. Like you could do four together or eight together.

ALEX HONNOLD: Dude.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. But the longest one—

ALEX HONNOLD: Eight hours?

JAY SHETTY: The longest one I’ve ever done is probably just under 24 hours. Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: Wow. How deep did you go?

JAY SHETTY: It was one of the best, most—because what we learned through length of meditation was not to show how long you can meditate, was the ability to have to disconnect from the body because you have to go beyond the body to be that present in the moment. Because you’ll start—and I mean, yours is much harder, but you start feeling an ache or a pain, you start itching, you start mentally getting—

ALEX HONNOLD: Your back hurts and your butt hurts.

JAY SHETTY: Totally. So you’ve got to go beyond the body and the mind.

ALEX HONNOLD: 24 hours. You get hungry, you have to go to the bathroom. How do you—yeah.

JAY SHETTY: No, you’re fasting to make it easier. But—

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, but does that make it easier? I mean, it makes it easier to—but you know, because just fasting for 24 hours is its own challenge.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. We would do it often enough. So it wasn’t—it wasn’t—again, it’s what you just said about—it’s what you practice when you’re practicing it. It doesn’t sound that crazy for me to say out loud, because I know other monks who’ve done it for three days and seven days and, you know—

ALEX HONNOLD: People meditate for seven days?

JAY SHETTY: Oh, absolutely.

ALEX HONNOLD: For real.

JAY SHETTY: They’re like—there’s some people that—I mean, yeah, I’m a complete beginner when it comes to, you know, the realm of real work that some of these incredible people that I got to meet have done.

ALEX HONNOLD: Seven days is a long time to sit.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, it’s a long time to sit. Maybe not good.

ALEX HONNOLD: It feels like more than you might need.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, exactly.

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, it’s—

Cold Plunges and Mind Over Matter

JAY SHETTY: It’s always that interesting thing where I remember when I was starting to do cold plunges in the beginning, I’d always be like, “What’s the right amount of time to be in a cold plunge?”

ALEX HONNOLD: Zero.

JAY SHETTY: I was going to ask you. I love you forever.

ALEX HONNOLD: No, no, I don’t do that kind of thing.

JAY SHETTY: Oh, you don’t?

ALEX HONNOLD: But it’s because I’m kind of like, I don’t think it matters. I don’t think it makes me a better—so, you know, if I was convinced that this would change my life, then I’m like, “Yeah, I’m sure I could do that.” You know, mind over matter, whatever. But there are a lot of things like that, same with meditation, where I’m like, if I thought this was the path and that would help me send, you know, climb harder, I’m like, “Yeah, I would do that.” But if I don’t think so, then I’m like, “No, I take a hot shower.”

JAY SHETTY: I love that. I love that. But no, it’s what I was saying was that when I first started to do it, there’s the ego number because it makes you feel better, but then there’s the number that’s actually good for your health. So I think most health experts would say three to seven minutes in there is amazing. But then people be like, “I was in there for 15 minutes.” But it’s almost like it doesn’t—it’s not that active after the seven minutes because your body’s regulated and now it’s not a challenge or a shock anymore.

ALEX HONNOLD: And after 20, you’re dead. So—

JAY SHETTY: Exactly.

ALEX HONNOLD: It’s not a real benefit.

JAY SHETTY: It’s not actually happening. So has there ever been anything you’re like, “I really want to climb that, but actually it’s too risky and I wouldn’t even bother”?

The Burj Khalifa: A Climb Too Far

ALEX HONNOLD: So actually, in the context of the building—so when the idea of climbing a skyscraper for a live thing came up, you know, whatever, 12 years ago or something, when we first scouted, the first thing I scouted was the Burj Khalifa. It was the tallest building in the world in Dubai. And it’s possible you can climb it. I mean, I was able to do the moves on it, but it’s cutting edge, basically. It’s very, very hard.

JAY SHETTY: And how high did you get?

ALEX HONNOLD: I could climb the building with a rope. You know, I could climb the outside, but it’s just very hard. And also it’s hard in the wrong ways. It’s very slippery and very finicky. You could imagine just slipping off at any moment. So basically I was kind of like, it was kind of like the El Cap of free soloing or something. I was like, “Sure, if I devoted myself to this, moved to Dubai and just lived on this building—yeah, it’s possible, you know, it can physically be done with the proper commitment and everything, but for a TV program?” And I was like, “No, this is crazy.”

I’d actually started thinking about using a D-Day style parachute. You know, old school military parachutes. A modern parachute is like a wing, has a direction to it. So it’s actually not that helpful for something like a building because you’d have to be able to get a clean exit away from the building and turn away from it and face the correct direction. Because if you deployed your parachute and you went into the building, you just crumble and collapse and die.

So anyway, but a drop parachute—just an old school, what you imagine GI Joe using—that just goes straight down. When I was playing on the Burj, I was kind of like, “Well, maybe I’d use something like that.” Because then if you did slip, at least you could just basically plummet straight down the face of the building. It might kind of be okay, you know, maybe you break your ankle at the bottom, but you’re not going to die.

And so, you know, I started considering ideas like that. I was like, “This is all crazy. This is too much. This is too extreme, basically.” And so, I mean, that’s an example of a climb where I’m like, “Yeah, it’s possible, somebody could do it, but it’s just way outside what I think is reasonable.”

But then when I went and scouted Taipei 101, it’s kind of like, “Oh, it has all the same features of a striking building.” That’s the biggest thing in the whole landscape. It’s amazing. But the style of climbing is way more secure. The things that you’re grabbing are way less slippery and the shape of them works better. You just hold on better. I was just like, “Oh, this is the type of challenge I’m looking for.”

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I wonder whether now, after this, they’re going to start building buildings for you to climb. That’s what’s going to happen.

Architecture and Climbability

ALEX HONNOLD: I don’t think architects even—I don’t even think it crosses their mind, what humans can hold on the outside. Because it’s interesting. I mean, some buildings are just completely impossible because they’re just smooth metal and glass. And then other buildings are like a ladder. You know, it’s almost like a jungle gym where it’s too easy. It’s kind of trivial. Anybody could walk up and do it if they wanted to.

The New York Times building in New York City has been climbed by a handful of random people. And some just random dude off the street just climbed half the building because it’s like a scaffolding, basically. You’re kind of like, “Well, that’s not the challenge that I’m looking for because I spent my whole life practicing this thing.” I want to do something that’s hard enough that it feels meaningful to me.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, for sure. How do you prepare for a climb? So you scout it out, but how do you then prepare? How are you preparing right now for—

Training for Taipei 101

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I actually just started all my training type stuff for it. It’s funny. I did the scout in September because they have to do it far enough out to assemble the crew and plan the filming and all that kind of stuff. And it was funny because I was super psyched at the time. Like, you go and scout it and you’re like, “God, this is so cool. I’m so excited. Like, I want to do this next week.” You know, I’m like, “Let’s do this. I’m ready.”

But then I kind of had to just sit on it for a couple months, just because it’s scheduled for January. And so now, sort of two and a half months out, I’ve started properly training. You just don’t want to start really training too far out because then you’ll just get injured and tired. And, you know, it’s like you kind of want to peak at the right time.

And so, yeah, I’m just—I don’t know—all the ways you normally train. Like, eating really well, sleeping really well, exercising a tremendous amount, and just kind of trying to ramp up my volumes that I feel incredibly fit when the time comes.

JAY SHETTY: And that’s so interesting that you said you have to peak at the right time. So have you learned how to do that over time? I assume, because in my head, I’m thinking, oh, wait, for something this big, you’d prepare six months in advance. But I love what you’re saying, actually.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. Like a training block, normally you can only sustain, say, three to six weeks of hard effort before you kind of need a deload time. Like, basically, you can only build for a certain amount of time, and then you need some kind of natural rest, and then you can start building again.

And so, ideally, you sort of naturally build up over time, but if you were, say, six months out from an event, you’d have to have a pretty sophisticated—I’m going to train really hard for a month, but then rest for a week or two and then train really hard. You know, you need a complicated plan.

In this case, I have a relatively simple plan in that I’m basically just ramping until the building. And I kind of started my training maybe a little prematurely. I was all psyched. And so I think I’m going to take a little deload time around Christmas, which actually works perfectly with the holidays and things, because I think I’ll basically wind up doing six weeks or so and then have a week at Christmas where I kind of chill and then do another three or four weeks and then do the thing.

JAY SHETTY: You sound just like us, Alex.

ALEX HONNOLD: No, well, it’s just easier. It was all kind of perfectly, you know, I think it should be perfect. But we’ll see. So far, so far I’m responding well and feel really strong and, yes, great.

JAY SHETTY: I love hearing that, man. I’m excited to see it. Like, I’m so thrilled it’s—to do it live is just, you know, you’re giving us a real treat. Like, I think, you know, it’s interesting.

The Live Event Experience

ALEX HONNOLD: Though, because for me, the live thing doesn’t—if anything, it makes it more chill because normally when you shoot a documentary, you go and you do the thing and then you have to go back and film on it and you have to shoot pickups and shoot audio and do all this extra work, basically. And so, you know, it’s this tremendous amount of effort.

But for the live event, I’m kind of like, I’m going to go and I’m going to do it and then I’m going to fly home and I’m done. It’s totally amazing. Like, as soon as I do the climb, I’m totally done.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. I’m saying, for us, it’s more fun because we get to be there with you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. Yeah. But I just don’t, you know, I basically don’t totally care, you know, about other people’s experience, because—

JAY SHETTY: Oh, you don’t.

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, not really, you know.

JAY SHETTY: Oh, interesting.

ALEX HONNOLD: Sort of like, if it was a film about it, that’d be fine for me to do the live thing, basically. I want to do a climb that I’m proud of. Like, I’m excited about climbing it and the way other people experience that, I’m kind of like, you know—

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, I don’t want to say I don’t care because I want other people to have, you know, a good time from it. But that’s not the priority. You know what I mean?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, well, because you love it.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. I mean, that’s kind of the thing. And I think—

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that’s brilliant. What a great place. I think everyone wants to live that way. You do it because you love it. It doesn’t really matter.

Joyous Play, Not Death-Defying Stunts

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. It’s funny, when it first got announced as a project, there was, you know, the sort of expected online hate and stuff from people in the climbing community being like, “Why would you do that? That’s stupid. Why climb building? It’s too risky,” or whatever, you know, criticism for various reasons.

But I was kind of like, man, wait till you see the thing. It’s so cool. It’s so fun. You know, if you had the opportunity to do this, you would do it too, because any climber would say yes to this because it’s super fun. And any, you know, getting an opportunity to do something amazing, it’s like, why would you ever say no to that?

But my goal for the, you know, if I can say I have a goal for the building, I mean, other than climbing, it is just to actually have fun doing it. Because I’m kind of like, that’s what I want people to see from it. Like, “This is awesome,” you know, not like some death-defying stunt. It should be like, “This is amazing. Like, this is so fun. This is joyous,” you know?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely.

ALEX HONNOLD: We’ll see. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: I love how playful you make it because appealing to that part, I think we can all relate to that. When it was just when it was playful, when it was exciting, when it was—

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I know. It’s like this thing gets wrapped in all this, “It’s extreme.” And you’re kind of like, yes, I mean, yes, it’s very high consequence. Like, if I make a mistake, if I totally botch something, I could die. And you’re like, yeah, that’s—you don’t want to downplay that too much, but at the same time it’s pretty fun.

And the thing is that those are the same consequences if I don’t pay attention when I’m driving or whatever else. There are plenty of other things you do in life where if you botch it, you’re going to die. And yet people take some of those things for granted. It’s like, “Oh, that’s just normal life.” You’re kind of like, well, you know, you’ve got to be intentional around where you’re taking your risks.

Choosing Your Risks

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Do you think that’s a helpful mindset when you are doing things as well? To recognize it, to see it more as, I guess, grounded in real and normal in terms of when you’re processing things. Is that a helpful mindset?

ALEX HONNOLD: What do you mean?

JAY SHETTY: Like, even just the way you describe it, which I agree with, you’re like, yeah, well, there’s crazy risk in this as well. And you’re right. Like in driving, for example, and texting and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Or drink driving or whatever.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, drinking and driving, to me is the thing. People are always like, “Oh, climbing seems dangerous.” And you’re like, well, the thing with climbing is at least you’re choosing the risks that you’re taking. And obviously I’m training for them, I’m preparing for them. You know, I have imagery of the building at home so I can visualize the moves. You know, there’s a lot that goes into it.

Whereas people go out and party on a Friday night, and then they drive home and they’re like, “Whatevs,” you know, “It’s just a Friday, I’m partying.” And you’re like, well, you’re taking a tremendous amount of risk, sort of unintentionally.

JAY SHETTY: Same with texting and driving, too.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. I mean, and those are the types of things where you’re like, you know, it’s like, if you’re not choosing to take those risks. I don’t know. I mean, I think that’s kind of worse.

The Power of Visualization

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Talk to me about the visualization, because I’m such a big fan of visualization.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I read about it as a meditation technique.

JAY SHETTY: Talk to me about where you just said you have a picture of the building.

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, yeah. So, I mean, in rock climbing, when I’m climbing hard routes, let’s say, you always just imagine the route. You think about it, you remember the moves. Part of it is to physically remember what to do. Like left hand, right hand, drop the left hip, you know, turn the knee, things like that, the mechanics of it.

And then part of the visualization is like, what will it feel like, particularly around free soloing, things that you’re not going to be able to practice necessarily. So some of the visualizing is just like, how will it feel to put my foot on something that’s really slippery when I’m going to die if it slips. And so you’re just kind of imagining the sensations and all that, that kind of stuff.

JAY SHETTY: So you can’t, as part of free soloing, you can’t go and climb this building at any point in order to practice?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, no, I can go practice it with a rope.

JAY SHETTY: Okay.

ALEX HONNOLD: But the thing is, you just don’t know because when you have a rope on, you don’t really mind if your foot’s going to slip or something. But then when you take the rope away, you’re kind of like, well, is it going to feel different? Like, I don’t know. And you can’t totally practice that. So you kind of have to do that mentally. Just imagine it.

JAY SHETTY: And yes, you get a sense while you’re on the rope, almost as a dress rehearsal feeling. And then you’re having to remember that feeling.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. And sort of imagine the potential feelings. Because part of the benefit of visualization, I think, is that you’re like, what if it’s humid that day? What if it’s particularly dry? And with a building, it’s interesting because with glass and metal, you know, the texture is obviously really different than rock.

And so I’m not sure if I want it to be humid or if I want it to be dry. With rock, you normally want it to be super dry because if it’s humid, it’s too slippery on the rock. But with a building, because it’s so slippery to begin with, I think you actually want some humidity so it doesn’t feel as—you want your skin to stick to it a little bit. And so you want a little bit of dampness, but obviously you don’t—wetness. You don’t want it to be wet because then it’s really slippery.

So anyway, just thinking about stuff like that, I mean, that’s all part of visualization, I think. But what I was going to say is that with rock climbing, you know, you don’t normally have footage of any of this type of stuff. So you just imagine that you remember, you think about the climb.

With this building, you know, we already went and did a scout and they were practicing the camera positions. They flew a drone up and down the building to figure out the angles and all that kind of stuff. And so I never—I don’t think I’d ever done this before, but I kind of reached out to the production team, was kind of like, “Send me, you know, selects of the whole building so I can remember all the different sequences better.”

And so they sent me just some visuals of the building, but then they also sent me some clips of me climbing different things. And I was like, “Oh, this is actually tremendously useful because I can see, you know, how I’m doing it and what I can do better.” And just, you know, I was like, “Oh, this is great.”

JAY SHETTY: I love that you use visualization as a technique, though.

ALEX HONNOLD: Every climber does. It’s a really big part of climbing.

JAY SHETTY: And you’re visualizing the process, the texture, the feeling, everything. Yeah. Every detail that you could possibly imagine or know from.

Visualizing the Consequences

ALEX HONNOLD: And sometimes you’re imagining the experience, like, the consequences of it. Or, like, what if you do fall? Like, I mean, particularly with free soloing El Cap, I’ve spent so long kind of working on that. I mean, I thought about, like, what if I fell from here, fell from there, just because.

And even though those are terrible things to visualize, because it’s you falling to your death in horrible ways. Because, you know, in a lot of places, falling off a mountain, it’s not like a clean—it’s not like, I fell and then you hit the ground. It’s like you bounce, you know, hundreds of feet or a thousand feet, and it’s a disaster.

And so, but it’s important to think about that stuff ahead of time so that when you’re up there, you don’t suddenly, for the first time, you know, it’s not like, “Oh, if I fell here, it would be horrible.” It’s like, no, you’ve already thought about that. You visualize it. You processed it, and you’ve chosen to set that aside and execute the climb anyway.

JAY SHETTY: You’ve already sat with the discomfort of that feeling in a safe environment.

ALEX HONNOLD: Exactly.

JAY SHETTY: So now you can track that and bring that with you to this.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. Now you don’t have to think about it while you’re up there.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, ideally, you think through all that stuff ahead of time. And so far with the building, I haven’t gotten too deep into all that yet, just because I’m still kind of a ways out, and I’m sort of focused on the physical side, and it’s just not quite as close to my personal edge, I think. I’m pretty sure. Like, I just—I think it should be well within my comfort zone, I think. Yeah. So there’s just not as much time devoted to, like, what if I die? But, you know, we’ll see.

The Power of Visualization

JAY SHETTY: No, no, I—but I love the visual. What’s interesting to me, because I’m thinking about all of us, and I, you know, I think the smallest things in the world would be easier if—so, for example, I’ve been public speaking for years, and I’ve always asked for a picture of the stage so that I can visualize myself walking out so that I don’t trip over when I go out there.

And I think about all the—and I’m giving a very human example of something that I hope my listeners can take away going, okay, well, how do I use that? I’m like, yeah, I visualize myself giving presentations. I visualize myself doing difficult things for the first time. I visualize pretty much everything. I used it as a technique.

ALEX HONNOLD: You’re a trained visualizer, though. Yeah. It’s like an easy tool for you to pull out of the box, for sure.

JAY SHETTY: But I would really encourage people to do it. Because hearing you talk about it, I’m like, yeah, you’re visualizing all the details. And what I love that you haven’t once said, and I want to ask you about this, is you didn’t just say, “Oh, I visualize myself getting to the top and celebrating.” It’s like, no, I visualize—

ALEX HONNOLD: I don’t care about that.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that. Because I think that’s what today, when we talk about manifesting and visualizing, people have this “visualize where you want to visualize success.” Right?

Daydreaming vs. Manifesting Success

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, like, who cares about that? Because, like, that’ll just follow, like, if that happens, great. If it doesn’t, whatever. Yeah, yeah. It’s funny, I haven’t visualized that, actually. I mean, it’s not totally true because the top of the building is this incredible little spire. It’s like a small—it’s basically the space between us. It’s just a little dome. And so you just stand on this tiny little pinnacle, and it’s incredible, and the view’s insane.

But, you know, I’ve already gone up there, like, climbed up through the hatch just to, like, check it out and rappel off the side and things. And so, you know, I know it’s amazing, and I know that it’s going to feel amazing to stand up there. So I haven’t really, like, visualized that because I’ll just, you know, it’s like, when it happens, it happens. But no, you visualize the stuff that’s important.

But actually, I mean, talking about this, I think in some ways, if you’re talking about, like, the layperson audience, whatever, I think maybe it’s worth not framing it as visualization because, you know, over the years as a climber, I’ve always just kind of thought of it as daydreaming. You know, it’s like—because also, as a climber, you spend so much time hiking to and from cliffs. And I spend a lot of time by myself walking around, you know, in the mountains. And you just spend a lot of time daydreaming, basically, like, thinking about climbing.

And so, you know, occasionally, like, a project like this, I’ll intentionally visualize where I’m like, okay, I’m getting ready for a thing. But basically, anytime I go wandering in the mountains, I spend a tremendous amount of time just thinking about, you know, like, your mind’s always wandering on something. It might be wandering through climbs that you’re excited about or things that you’re thinking about or projects that you have, like things on the back burner that you didn’t quite do that you want to go back to.

So, you know, I mean, I think it’s less daunting to think of it as like, oh, when you’re out for a hike or like out for a walk with your dog, you just daydream about things that matter to you. Like that is visualization.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ALEX HONNOLD: You know, like you can make it more focused and you can do it more intentionally, but at the core it’s just imagining stuff.

JAY SHETTY: Yes, yes, I like that. And the truth is all of us are imagining, but most of us are imagining worst case scenario. Like, so imagine the meeting and going, “Oh God, I’m going to get fired today.” Or you know, that’s how we imagine.

Natural Wiring and Inner Peace

ALEX HONNOLD: I wonder about that because I don’t really have that so much.

JAY SHETTY: I didn’t think you did.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. And I do kind of wonder if I’m just like, just a little less neurotic than average, like as a base hardwired. You know what I mean?

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ALEX HONNOLD: Like, it’s interesting because I’ve read—you know, I just read your book. I’ve read a ton of like self-help type stuff over the years and like all kinds of—and generally I read and I’m like, I’m already living my best life. Like, I love my life. I’m doing what I love to do. I love the—and so I mean, for whatever reason, I love reading books like that because I feel like if I get one little nugget that like helps me, it’s like totally worth it.

And but at the same time, I’m just kind of like, I don’t know if this book was written for me. You know what I mean? Like, I don’t feel like I’m struggling with a lot of the things that it seems like some of these types of books are written for.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ALEX HONNOLD: Like, I’m not struggling with inner turmoil around a lot of this type of stuff. I’m kind of like, is that, you know, basically, is that nature and nurture? It’s like, is that just the way it is or is that a lifetime spent outside being scared and I don’t know.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I mean, I mean I—

ALEX HONNOLD: Feel like, like how much natural anxiety do you have?

JAY SHETTY: No, I feel similarly to you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Okay. Like you just never felt afflicted by like—

JAY SHETTY: That wasn’t how I operate in general. Yeah. It was just not how I—and I think it’s because I was exposed to so much of it when I was young. So I think it is the exposure of being overexposed to discomfort, anxiety, pain, stress. But I’ve seen that go both ways.

So I’ve seen that lead to people becoming free of it or having less of it or being able to know how to manage it. I’ve also seen it go towards people crippling anxiety. And then I’ve seen also people creating great success in order to protect themselves from it.

ALEX HONNOLD: Huh.

JAY SHETTY: And so there’s almost like it can go in three ways. And so it’s not that simply being exposed to discomfort makes you stronger.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, it depends on how.

JAY SHETTY: It depends on how the person reacts to it. It’s almost like there’s this old story, which I love, which is like, when you put three different things in boiling water, different things happen to them. So it’s like you put a potato in boiling water, it gets softer. You put an egg in boiling water, it gets harder. You put coffee beans in boiling water, they let out the best scent.

And so there’s this old story that goes, which one are you? Are you a, you know, an egg, a potato, or a coffee bean? And so it’s almost like the pressure of hot water—what does it do to you? And that’s always been an interesting thing of, do we get to choose that, or are we wired that way? What does that look like?

Nature vs. Nurture in Parenting

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I think about this more now. I have two little kids, and so, you know, like, questions of nature versus nurture, I just think about a lot more because you’re kind of like, you know, are we having any impact on these children? Like, are they just fully baked as—

JAY SHETTY: How are you finding? I’m intrigued as to—

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, they’re so young, it’s hard to tell, but you just see so much innate in them when you’re like, you’re just your own little person. And, you know, there are probably things that we could do negatively to, like, negatively impact their development, but I don’t know how much we’re going to do positively. You know what I mean?

I’m kind of like, I think they’re going to be fine, but in some ways, it takes away a lot of the stress of parenting, where you’re just kind of like, you know, I’m not trying to, like, shape them into anything. Like, I think they’re going to be freaking great. We’re just trying to make sure they’re happy and safe and, you know, like, have their material needs met and things, and let them blossom into whatever they’re going to blossom into. Yeah, but we’ll see. I mean, I’m just starting, and I don’t really know anything about parenting. We’re just winging it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. No, I remember a friend, like, I—we’re not parents yet, but I remember a friend, like, they raised their kid where, like, their kid would be, like, playing with fire and, like, jumping up and down and running around and it’s like—and I would—I didn’t know this. I was much younger then, and I would—I didn’t know their style, and so I would get scared when their kid was near a candle or something and be like, “No, let the kid be near a candle. Like, they’ll figure it out themselves.”

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, we’re very much like that. Yeah, well, yeah, all this talk about risk taking, all that. I mean, I definitely—I think with the kids, you know, obviously I don’t want to see them get grievously injured, but I don’t really mind seeing them get a little bit injured, you know, like, see them fall down all the time. Like, that’s fine.

Like, I mean, as a climber, you just fall down all the time and, like, you just get, you know, boo-boos nonstop. And so, like, with the kids, you’re just kind of like, yeah, that’s fine, dude. Get hurt all the time, just—but we’re there to prevent catastrophic injuries. And like, and now we kind of see that already with the kids, where you’re like, oh, you know, they just seem a little bolder than some other kids their age maybe.

But then you wonder, is that nature? Is that nurture? Is that because we allow them the latitude to explore like that? Or is that, you know, because it’s my daughter and whatever, you know?

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: I don’t know. It’s like my wife and I are already sort of adventurous people, and so our kids are too. I don’t know.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: You know, I’m saying we’ll see.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Can you be a climber and be a perfectionist?

Balancing Perfectionism and Laziness

ALEX HONNOLD: I think, yeah, I think you can be in some ways. I actually think I’m a recovered perfectionist in some ways. Well, I don’t know. I mean, I think that my mom is like a major perfectionist, like kind of psycho. And so I think we were sort of raised that way. It’s like that’s the norm.

But I mean, the reality is like I’m a very lazy person. Like I just often do the bare minimum and things that I don’t care about or like the minimum requirement to, you know, whatever. And so, I don’t know, like how do you reconcile perfectionist tendencies of being incredibly lazy? Sort of like, I don’t know. It’s tough.

And so now I think I’ve hit a real sweet spot where it’s like I work really hard on the things I care about and then everything else, I just don’t stress.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, that to me seems to be a trait of highly high performers and successful people in general, that they’re able to know or focus on the thing that matters.

ALEX HONNOLD: Absolutely.

JAY SHETTY: And what not to waste time on.

ALEX HONNOLD: And it’s taken me a long time to get there, I think, you know, because I think through early life, you’re just so hung up on like appearances and what you should be doing, what you think you ought to be, you know, whatever. And then eventually you’re just kind of like, you know, I’m only good at a couple things. I just focus on the thing I’m good at and just do it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: And just be happy doing it.

Diet, Sleep, and Training Routine

JAY SHETTY: Talk to me. I wanted to go back. You were saying that right now you’re working out, diet, sleep. Like walk me through what that routine looks like. I love learning about people who live incredible lives and their different systems that they have in place to be able to pull off great feats.

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, yeah, it’s all normal stuff. Like eat well, exercise. Yeah. So I’m eating a vegetarian, basically. You know, mostly whole foods. I don’t know. Like dinner last night was like tofu, roasted broccoli and cauliflower, and some like purple sweet potato thing. I think that was it. Oh, and some Brussels sprouts.

But it’s basically just a bowl of like vegetables. And it’s interesting because even like a couple months ago, I would have thought of that as a sort of inadequate dinner, you know. But like the last several weeks, I’ve basically just been eating like whole foods and no sugar and like wholesome meals, and I’m kind of like, you know, I’ve just kind of adapted to it. Like this feels good, and I feel great. And, you know, I’m sleeping well.

JAY SHETTY: And how much do you try and sleep? And when do you sleep well, basically?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, the babies have been waking up actually. We have like, there’ll be two and four in February. So right now it’s like one and three quarters or whatever. But for whatever reason, she’s waking up in the middle of the night a bunch right now, which is like a new thing. I think it’s like a developmental phase. You know, it’s like she’s suddenly made a leap, but she’s saying way more. But you’re like, got to go back to sleep. Like, oh man.

But so we basically sleep from like 10 to 6 every day. Like roughly 8 hours every day. But then sometimes a little more or less. But then, you know, the other night I got up at 3 and then just like made a bottle for my baby and like did a whole other bedtime for it. Three in the morning. Like basically like read her story and put her back to bed. It was kind of like, huh, what an unusual night.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: So, you know, you can’t take it too seriously. It’s not like, sure. But, you know, it’s enough though. I mean, we’re sleeping well.

JAY SHETTY: Vegetarian over a meat diet because I’ve always…

ALEX HONNOLD: I’ve always cared more about the environmental impact, like just the impact on the earth. But I also feel like it’s a little cleaner and I’m not like super uptight about it. Like I’ll eat fish and generally I’ll eat meat if it’s going to be wasted. You know, if like somebody has a serving, I’m like, oh, well, it’s better than throwing it away. But I just don’t buy meat and I don’t really do dairy, I think.

JAY SHETTY: Do you find that affects your performance too?

ALEX HONNOLD: I think I’m kind of lactose intolerant a little bit. And so I’m kind of like, it’s probably not like the best. But yeah, it’s just, but again, it’s also better for the earth. I’m kind of like, ah, it seems better.

JAY SHETTY: Right. Interesting.

ALEX HONNOLD: The main thing for me is not eating desserts, like not eating extra sugar. It just keeps everything going. Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: So then I thought that…

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, I actually, so interesting. I’m maybe like two weeks into eating really well right now and you just lose the cravings. Yeah. You feel so much better once you get past that.

JAY SHETTY: I go through periods of being completely off and then I have like, you know, during Christmas time, I’ll probably…

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, exactly.

JAY SHETTY: Travel a little bit again. But when I’m off, I feel like my taste buds change.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, you just feel so much better. Yeah, I know. It’s all the things you read about in books that you’re just like, nah, that’s stupid. And then you actually experience it. You’re like, well, it does seem like it’s true.

Pre-Climb Rituals and Mindset

JAY SHETTY: Imagine it’s the 22nd of January. What do you do? What’s your ritual the night before? Is it different? Do you have a ritual?

ALEX HONNOLD: But the night before a big climb? I mean, the day before be a rest day. I might do some cardio or something, go for like a light run or go there. There are a bunch of really cool mountains like in the city, so you can go run around them. They’re like monkeys in the jungle and stuff. It’s really cool. So you can like run around in the mountains a little bit.

So I’ll probably do some cardio or something, but basically no strenuous exercise. And then, yeah, I’ll just go to bed early and, you know, just try to eat well and go to sleep. Basically, you just want it to be normal.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: Like this is a normal day. It’s chill. And then you wake up the next day and you do the thing.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. When I’m hearing you speak about it, which is really refreshing, is that it’s such a, it feels like such a natural part of your life.

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, I think that’s how you want to make it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Like, yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: Because then it doesn’t feel extreme.

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ALEX HONNOLD: You know, it doesn’t require some crazy thing that you do. You’re like, this is what you do. This is normal. Yes.

JAY SHETTY: And I can liken it to, and I’m only translating it because I’m always thinking about our listeners. But I can translate it to in the past, if I was sitting down with someone that I was a huge fan of and I built that up, it would actually make me a bad interviewer.

ALEX HONNOLD: Totally. Because you’re all…

JAY SHETTY: Because you’re all like, oh, my God.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And I would do that when I first started the show. And then over time, people saw me relax in and ease in. And sometimes I said to people, I was like, it’s not that I wasn’t super excited. It was just I had to contain it to do my job.

ALEX HONNOLD: Keep it chill. Keep it chill. I got this.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, exactly.

Managing Psychological Pressure

ALEX HONNOLD: No, so exactly what you’re saying. So with free soloing, I’ll cap. Like I knew it would be the biggest thing I’d ever do. Like I knew, I mean, I didn’t think the film would be as successful as it was, but I knew that it would be far beyond anything I’d ever done because it’s, you know, it’s a feature documentary and whatever. And I knew the climb would be insane.

But at the same time, you know, the main challenge of free soloing is psychological. Like I had climbed El Cap with ropes, you know, many years before. I’d climbed it without falling off many years before. Like technically, I was physically able to do it many years before. But the psychological challenge, the believing you can do it when your life is on the line, that’s a bigger challenge.

And so I didn’t want to build it up even bigger in my mind, because you’re like, the challenge is already psychological. I don’t need to pile on and make it even harder. And so a big part of my strategy with El Cap was to make it part of my normal year.

And so right after I free soloed El Cap, I went on this expedition to Alaska, which is like a normal, as a professional climber, you go on trips to places, you try to climb new walls, whatever. And so it allowed me to look at my Yosemite season that year as kind of building up for Alaska.

And actually the Alaska trip was because I went on an expedition later in that year to Antarctica, and I was kind of like, oh, I haven’t been on skis in a while. It’d be nice to like do some glacier travel and climb some big granite spires on snow because it’ll be good for Antarctica.

And so I was kind of like, oh, Yosemite season is building up for Alaska, which is building up for Antarctica. And so it took a lot of the pressure off having to achieve on El Cap or whatever, because I’m like, oh, either way, this is practice for these other things coming up.

And I mean, I knew that the other things don’t f*ing matter compared to free soloing El Cap. But, you know, it’s like it’s good to keep it feeling chill. So I mean, I’ve always been into sort of stacking my goals in that way and trying to make sure that you don’t let them get too big. You know, it’s like you keep it all, I don’t know.

Yeah, so the building’s kind of the same way where I’m like, obviously that’s more important than some of the other things I’m working on right now. But I do have a bunch of other climbing projects that are sort of intermixed with the training, and so it keeps it all feeling mellow.

The Summit Experience

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. When you summit, like El Cap or anything like that, where you reach the top, how do you find you process that feeling? Like what does that feel like to you? Is it gratifying? Do you experience it?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, no, I’m psyched. I’ll be like, this is amazing. I mean, with El Cap, it was such a long and it was so on the edge of what I thought was possible. And so it meant a lot. You know, it meant a lot to me. I put so much into it and the pressure with the film crew and all this stuff, I mean, it was insane. So I definitely, I was like, this is amazing.

I mean, the building too. I’m sure I’ll stand on the top and be like, this is awesome. I’ll be so psyched. But then, you know, I’ll take the elevator down and be like, okay, what a day. I was like, what a joy. I’m sure I’ll be glowing like until I’m back home.

But then as soon as I fly back to my home, Las Vegas, I’ll be back to normal climbing projects. Like things that, because I wouldn’t be at all surprised, basically there’s several other things I’m trying to do at home as a sort of buildup and training for the building. And I wouldn’t be surprised if I don’t manage to do any or all of them. We’ll see which things I managed to do.

And so as soon as I finish the building, I’ll just be back to try to finish my training goals. Basically, yeah.

JAY SHETTY: Is it right you were talking about waking up and the baby being awake at night. Is this the first time you’re doing a climb as a father and a husband?

The Sphere Project and Undocumented Climbs

ALEX HONNOLD: No, no, it’s not. I mean, I’ve done a handful of things that are cutting edge with the kids, actually. I did kind of my hardest Free Solo to date for the Sphere. Like it’ll be this cool, insane thing. It’s a bunch of the same crew from Free Solo. So it’s like the same co-directors and stuff. And so it was really fun to get everyone back together.

And I free soloed this wall in Jordan, in the Middle East. It’s like 1,200 foot sandstone wall. And it was probably, I told my wife, it’s like probably top 10 hardest things I’ve ever soloed. But she was like, top 10 is kind of hard because I’ve actually done way more than what’s in the public on film. Because just building up El Cap, I did a ton of things that are very hard.

And so this thing for the Sphere that was probably the first thing I’ve done with kids where I was like, this is actually kind of cutting edge and pretty hard. And before doing it, I was kind of like, is this going to be different? You know, like, am I going to be up there thinking about my kids being like, oh, God, this is so scary now. But I got up there and I was like, this is awesome. I was so psyched. It’s this amazing wall. It’s a really classic route. It’s famous and it’s really high quality. And so I was just up there being like, this is so amazing. And I felt great.

JAY SHETTY: So you can experience that in the Sphere?

ALEX HONNOLD: In Vegas, next fall, I think so. Like in a year or something.

JAY SHETTY: That’s awesome.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, we’ll see. I think it’s hard to film for something like that. You know, it’s hard to shoot on these crazy cameras. So we’ll see how it turns out. But in theory, next fall, there’ll be a thing like that. This might all need to go. I don’t know. Someone who’s smarter than me.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, I just went to watch Wizard of Oz there.

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, is it cool?

JAY SHETTY: But it was insane.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I’ve heard it’s really cool.

JAY SHETTY: Incredible. I was so blown away by it, and I can’t imagine, you know.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, that’s the thing. I think seeing soloing like that would be insane.

JAY SHETTY: It’d be amazing. Yeah, it’d be a real experience. No, yeah, we’ll figure that out. But yeah, that’s, do you, so then, so it’s interesting you said that, you know, you’ve done, to hear you say you’ve done crazier, harder climbs that have never been documented.

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, not harder than El Cap, right. But leading up to El Cap. Well, actually, so let’s see. I mean, I can remember, so leading up to El Cap, I had three other routes that were very, I mean, they’re similar, they’re not as hard and they’re not as big, but they kind of led up to it. And one of them got filmed for YouTube, basically. And then the other two, never. Nobody ever even saw them. You know, like one of my friends saw one of them with binoculars from the parking lot area. But basically nobody saw any of the other stuff.

One of them, not only did nobody see it, nobody was even in the climbing region. I went in and I’d been planning on prepping it for several days, but then my van ran out of propane. And it was like this insanely long windy road to go back to. And I was kind of like, oh, I can’t cook. And so I was like, screw it. So I just did the solo the next day so I could drive back out and just leave because I didn’t want to, because I couldn’t cook and I didn’t want to take a whatever.

So I was like, well, that’s the ultimate rushed solo. You know, you’re kind of like, nobody saw it. Nobody. There was no plan. I just got it done and left. But yes, I’ve done a lot of things like that over the years.

JAY SHETTY: Wow.

ALEX HONNOLD: Wow.

Marriage and Partnership

JAY SHETTY: Do you have conversations with your wife before you decide what you’re going to climb and stuff? Or is this kind of like this is what I’m doing?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, no, for the most part, I mean, when we first met, I mean, have you seen the film Free Solo? It all sounds pretty, you know, like I don’t care at all about her feelings and I think that gives a slightly wrong impression just because at that point I’ve been dreaming about El Cap for, you know, eight years or something.

And then I actually met my now wife at the exact same time that we started filming for the documentary. So we filmed for sort of two years to make that documentary. And so that was the first two years of our relationship. And you know, I was like, oh, she’s amazing and this is great. But you know, as some random person I met six months ago, like it’s not going to get in the way of a life dream, you know.

But now it’s totally different because now I’m like, oh, we’ve been together 10 years, we have kids, we have a life together. Like, you know, I live with my in-laws and you know, it’s all much more tightly woven and so her opinion matters a lot more for projects now.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. How did you know she was the right person?

ALEX HONNOLD: I don’t know. She’s just, she’s so great. I mean, I think when I proposed there was, I said something along the lines of, you know, like, this is great. Can we just keep doing this forever? You know, like, why not? Yeah, yeah. I’ve never been into the big romantic gesture type thing because I kind of think the day to day life is like one of the things that I think is great in our, like we have what we call sleepovers at night.

Like basically at night we always chit chat for a really long time, which is detrimental to our sleep. But it’s like, but whenever we go to bed, we always have, you know, we chit chat for a while, and I’m like, oh, it’s so nice. You know, it’s like, you want to have a buddy that you chit chat with your whole life. I’m kind of like, I don’t know. I’m going to do that forever.

JAY SHETTY: I love that. Does she find, obviously, what you do inspiring? Like, what’s her take on it? Like, if she was here right now and I was like, describe what Alex does, like, how it feels for her, what would you say?

ALEX HONNOLD: I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, you know, she must be at least slightly impressed by it. I mean, she didn’t meet me at a book about it, but at the same time. Yeah. Well, actually, though, she didn’t really climb at the time. Her friend was into it, and so her friend basically dragged her along, like, come to this event.

And she had just gotten disillusioned with dating apps, and she’s like, the next person I see that I think is cool, I’m going to give my number. And so afterward I was signing books, and she just gave me her number. I was like, cool. And so I texted her and then, and now we’re married. You know, long story short. That’s awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it was cool. But yes, obviously she must care a little bit, but I don’t think she cares that much.

JAY SHETTY: Is she a climber too?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, yeah. Now she’s, she basically kind of started climbing at roughly the same time that we, she had just started when we met. And so now it’s been 10 years. And, you know, now she’s quite a good climber.

JAY SHETTY: Wow, that’s awesome. That’s amazing. Will you ever do a climb together?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, we climb together all the time. Not like extreme climbing, but yeah, we try to climb together as much as possible. Now with the two kids, it’s a little harder for us to go out together. But then now, I mean, sometimes we go on sort of climbing trips as a family, and then the kids just run around the forest and play and we boulder.

You know, it’s like we’re going to do a family bouldering trip in France in the springtime. It’s like a really famous bouldering destination. But it’s amazing for the kids because it’s basically a sandy forest with nice soft trees and sand everywhere. So the kids just roam and play. It’s really cool.

JAY SHETTY: Is there a part of the world that you’re fascinated by that you haven’t visited yet?

ALEX HONNOLD: Actually, Southeast Asia. I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m fascinated, but I’ve never been. I’ve always wanted to. And there’s tons of climbing. It’s also kind of hot and humid. And so I’m sure I’ll go at some point. But honestly, I traveled quite a lot before I had my wife and kids. I was kind of abroad, like maybe three months a year or something for climbing trips.

And a lot of that, now I’m kind of waiting until the kids are a little older because I’m like, if I’m going to travel, I want to take the kids and I want them to be old enough to remember it and have a real life experience. So I think in general, our traveling is all a little bit on hold until kids are older. And then I’m really excited to show them some of these places.

Mission and Purpose

JAY SHETTY: Do you believe your work has a message or a mission beyond personal joy and fulfillment and thriving in play, or is it truly that?

ALEX HONNOLD: I mean, not that big of a mission. I mean, so part of the reason that I started the Honnold Foundation a long time ago, I mean, I started this foundation that supports community solar projects around the world, was that, you know, I had a lot of work opportunities that I didn’t necessarily need to take because I didn’t need the money because I was living by myself in a van. I was kind of like, you know, I don’t need to make this.

I mean, a lot of this stemmed from one specific experience where I shot this commercial for a bank. And, you know, and they wound up airing the commercial a ton. And this wasn’t even like, it wasn’t even for me as a famous climber or anything. It was like SAG rates or whatever, like Screen Actors Guild. I just signed the normal contract, but they wound up using the ad a ton. It aired all over the world. And so I made, you know, like six figures or something off of a day and a half of shooting. And I was like, well, there’s no justice in that, you know.

And the thing is, is that it was work that I would have done for free because it’s like you’re going out with your friends and you’re climbing in some spire and they’re shooting with a helicopter. And it’s super, you know, it’s crazy. It’s like super fun work. Like, this is a total life experience that you would do as a rest day anyway. You know what I mean? Because when you’re shooting commercial like that, it’s not like you’re training. It’s not like it’s hard.

And so you’re doing it as a rest day, and you’re like, well, either I would have sat in my van and read all day, or I can go climb the spire with my friend with a helicopter. And it’s insane. So you’re like, obviously you want to do things like that, but I was kind of like, I don’t need the money from it. I don’t need to do this type of work. And so part of starting my foundation was kind of like, well, it’s a nice way to funnel all that. You know, sort of funnel the notoriety, the money. Like, all that stuff can just go into something that seems slightly more useful.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: Because I like saying yes to those types of opportunities, but it’s like, but it feels kind of, you know, not like I’m saving up for a yacht, you know, like, I don’t need that. And so it’s nice to have a reason to funnel it all into something.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. That’s awesome. And then I know you just launched your podcast, Planet Visionaries, as well, right, with your Planet initiatives.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, yeah. Actually, we didn’t just, like, we launched the new season. I’ve done, I think, three or four seasons with them now, but, yeah, that’s one of my favorite, you know, where I mean, you know, like, interviewing people that are interesting and. Yeah, so with Planet Visionaries, I’m interviewing, you know, conservationists, marine biologists, basically people who are doing something useful in the world. And every time I have one of the conversations, I’m just like, oh, you come out of it feeling, you know, inspired. Yeah. Like, recharged in a good way. It’s kind of nice.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. And so how are you picking those people, you know, and are friendly with, or are they people that you’re just fascinated by or heard?

The Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative

ALEX HONNOLD: No, they’re often people working through the Rolex Perpetual Plant Initiative, because Rolex actually funds a surprising amount of conservation work like that. People don’t really know that. So a lot of them, you know, somebody like Sylvia Earle, who’s like, her deepness. She’s like the Jane Goodall of the ocean. She’s been a Rolex testimony since, like, 1950 or something. I don’t know. She’s like—I think she’s 90. She’s still scuba diving and creating marine protected areas around the world, trying to help protect the ocean.

And so interviewing people like her, you know, they’re just like part of this whole world. And then occasionally I interview folks like—I’ve interviewed a few grantee partners from the Honnold Foundation, like some of the organizations that we’ve supported doing community solar around the world. I’ve interviewed through them just to highlight the type of projects that they’re doing and why those types of projects matter. I mean, we’re kind of always looking for good guests, if you know somebody.

JAY SHETTY: Absolutely. Yeah. I was actually, because I became friendly with Munia recently from Rolex, and she was telling me about the show and everything that they were trying to do with it. And so I—actually, there’s a guest I always—his name escapes him, but I met him recently and he was fascinating. So I left—I left. Yeah, I thought of him to Munia, too, and I was like, oh, I’m going to see Alex. I’ll just tell.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, we were doing, you know, the first season or two is like Rolex ambassadors and things like that. And then you’re kind of like, well, there are only so many. And it’s like—and so you started broadening it out a little bit. We’re kind of like, really? Anybody who’s doing inspiring work protecting the planet is worth—I mean, many of the guests that I talked to is like, it’s interesting because they’re doing conservation in a slightly different way or, you know, a slightly different approach.

I don’t know. I like to think of the interviews as kind of mini, little TED Talks or something, where it’s like, what’s the little nugget that you’re trying to give to the audience? Like, how, like, in what way can they see the world differently as a result of having listened to this? So, I don’t know. It’s pretty fun interviews, I mean, as you know.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I’d love to. I’d love to. I wanted to ask you, Alex, I wanted to share one more thing, but I’m going to wait for it to come through, actually, because I believe we have this. So I’m just waiting for it, if now’s a good time. Okay, thank you so much, Paige.

ALEX HONNOLD: Thank you. Wow, this is so pro. I need a teleprompter. Where’s my—

Breaking the Myth

JAY SHETTY: So we had to do it for moments like this. So, Alex, we, you know, we were so excited about what you’re doing. And, you know, as I said, I’m such a fan from before that it’s really a joy to learn. I find it so refreshing when I sit with someone who kind of bursts every myth that you have about the thing. Right.

Like, I think we all have certain—it’s like what you said, the questions you usually get asked, or the kind of hype that’s built up around this is how this person breaks through fear and what they do. And then when I sit with you, I’m like, oh, I love how the way you approach it is flow, is play, is real, is life is joy is. You know, and that’s not what I would know or anticipate if I didn’t sit with you deeply and have a really casual conversation with you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. You think it’s all extreme.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. And I love that it isn’t like, you know, it’s beautiful when you’re—when your bubble gets burst and the myth breaks because you get to understand a human on a deeper level. And so we’d reached out to your mentor, Tommy, who’d sent a letter for you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Tommy sent a letter?

JAY SHETTY: Yes.

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, my goodness. Okay. Okay.

JAY SHETTY: Would you like to read it, or would you like me to read it out loud?

ALEX HONNOLD: What would you prefer? What’s better for you? You should read it.

JAY SHETTY: It’s for you, so I’ll read it to you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, so he says—

JAY SHETTY: And all we asked him was for a letter for you because you were coming on the show.

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, I’m already horrid. Do I need to leave? I’m, like, deeply uncomfortable.

A Letter from Tommy Caldwell

JAY SHETTY: All right, so this is what Tommy said. He said, “Dear Alex, when this podcast asked me to write you a heartfelt letter, I had to laugh. Few things make one of the most mentally strong men in the world squirm more than public affection, especially from someone close. But I’m doing it anyway because people should know the man behind the fearless facade.

When I climb with you, mountains shrink to half their size. At first, I thought it was your systems and efficiency, but over the years, I’ve realized it’s something deeper. Your unwavering belief in a positive outcome. More than free soloing, that is your superpower. When you believe things will work out, they almost always do.

You’ve helped me see that so much of what feels heavy or scary in life is mostly imagination. Whenever I come to you with relationship worries or questions about how my kids are growing up, you reframe things until they suddenly feel manageable. And every time you’ve been right. You bring humor and lightness to places no one else could, helping the people around you believe they can not only survive, but thrive.

Your bluntness, your unfiltered honesty might feel harsh coming from someone else, but from you, it builds trust. Everyone close to you understands. It comes from a genuine desire to see people reach their potential.

I also wish the world understood your generosity. You create abundance in everything you do and then give it away to friends, to family, to everyone around you. We come from a culture that values obscurity, one that assumes fame dilutes intention. Maybe that’s why calling you an entertainer feels strange. But you’ve shown that you can go big without losing who you are. And if the world is going to be entertained by anyone, I’m glad it’s you.

Knowing you and calling you a friend has been one of the greatest luck events of my life. I love you, man.”

ALEX HONNOLD: Tommy, that’s—that’s really nice. I was kind of like, did he write this? And then as he got into—I was like, oh, no, he wrote this. Oh, no, no, we would never do that. I’m like, no, that’s incredible. I’m like, that’s the nicest thing. That’s so nice.

JAY SHETTY: It nearly brought tears to my eyes reading. It’s the first time I read it. I’ve not seen it before now either, because it’s—

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, I am shocked. And, you know, I’m like, what a nice man. I wonder when he wrote this. He actually stopped by our house just the other day. They were driving for family Thanksgiving, so they just stopped for a night just to camp along the way. I’m like, oh, so how did you guys—

Climbing, I mean. Well, he was one of my childhood heroes. Like, he’s one of the most famous climbers in the world, and even when I was a kid, he was one of the best climbers ever. So I always looked up to him and was like, oh, one day I want to be like him. And then at some point, we just met on the road, both like, two climbers. And I think we were maybe in Squamish Spot in British Columbia. But then I sort of sought him out for a couple climbing objectives, and then once we started climbing together, it was like, game on.

The Power of Reframing

JAY SHETTY: Well, I loved what he said about you having the ability to reframe things. And would you say that’s your superpower?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, I mean, I think that’s just normal. I don’t know. It’s like, why build it up? It’s bigger than it needs to be.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. It’s funny what he said. He does jokingly call me an entertainer, because I’ve done TV shows and things now. So he’s always like, oh, you’re an entertainer? And I’m like, no, because I like to at least think of myself as more of a high performance athlete or whatever.

I used to jokingly call myself a high performance clothing model because when you’re a professional climber, it basically means you’re sponsored by apparel companies. And so I was like, oh, I’m a clothing model, but I send, you know, like, I go hard. And now Tommy’s like, oh, you’re an entertainer. You’re just like a TV personality. But I’m like, no, but send it.

You know, but the thing is, I don’t mind being a TV person as long as you can actually do the thing you’re trying to do, which is like, climb hard, climb well, like do things that you’re proud of.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely.

ALEX HONNOLD: But—oh, Tommy, what a—what a sweet man.

JAY SHETTY: What else I got to you? What else is—what else is like, what resonated with you?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. I don’t know. It’s just all—

JAY SHETTY: That’s a beautiful letter. It’s very heartfelt for a man who knew you were going to run out of the room when you heard me.

ALEX HONNOLD: I know. That’s actually the funny thing. Yeah. That—yeah. Nothing makes me squirm like public affection, especially if somebody closed. That’s so true. Yeah. No, I’m so—I’m so impressed that you wrote this. Love it.

JAY SHETTY: Well, you can keep it.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. No, I should put this on my wall.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely.

ALEX HONNOLD: Frame it like—what a nice holding to it. Do you do that for guests? Occasionally.

JAY SHETTY: Very rare.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah.

JAY SHETTY: We don’t do it for everyone.

ALEX HONNOLD: For the right type of guest. Yeah, for the right guest who we—

JAY SHETTY: Feel is at an exciting moment, doing something new, doing something fresh, like interesting, but it feels right.

ALEX HONNOLD: That’s such a nice—that’s such a nice idea.

The Power of Reflection

JAY SHETTY: It’s one of my—it’s one of my favorite things to do because I feel like, like you said, like, I think in our day to day we love people, but we don’t—we don’t say it like that. And you don’t get many chances in life to reflect. And so I know I love reflecting on people and I’ve appreciated when people have done it for me. And it’s—yeah, it’s one of my favorite things to do.

I have this activity I do when I’m doing workshops in companies sometimes where I’ll take a group of leaders who, despite achieving great things, their biggest worry is that they’re bad parents because they’re so busy and we always have their kids write a note to them and it’s stuck under their chair.

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, that’s like—and it’s really special because that seems like waterworks and—yeah.

JAY SHETTY: And you also get to see what kids actually value versus what you think they value. So you’re thinking like, oh, when I bought them that big gift or when I took them on that fancy vacation, it’s like that kid just remembered you’ve read a story to them before they went to bed last night. Like, that was the win. The win wasn’t some, you know, grand gesture or some big event in their life. It was this tiny moment where you actually present. So—but Alex. Oh God, you’re going to say something.

ALEX HONNOLD: I’m just like, oh, I’m so touched. It’s funny. I mean, you know, I just read “Think Like a Monk.”

JAY SHETTY: Yeah.

ALEX HONNOLD: And someone, one of my friends are just asking me like, oh, what are your takeaways? Like, what do you feel like you gained from it? I was like, oh, there’s a lot, you know, around, like kindness, compassion, things like, you know, caring, service. Like all these types of, like, I was like, you know, I think I have a lot of room for improvement. All of those things.

Like, you know, because there’s a lot in the book that I’m kind of like, yeah, no, this is fine. I got that. And then, you know, basically the whole second half of the book I’m kind of like, like, that’s—that’s not quite my sweet spot. Like, yeah, like there’s—there’s something to be learned there. Just like, oh yeah, just give something to think about. Yeah, like sweet Tommy.

JAY SHETTY: What a nice sweet Tommy. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, Alex.

Final Five

We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one sentence maximum. And so, Alex Honnold, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best advice you’ve ever heard or received?

ALEX HONNOLD: I’ll just go for it. Just try. That’s my advice.

JAY SHETTY: It’s worked for you.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. Yeah. Better—I mean, this is more than one sentence, but yeah, I mean, it’s better to try something and fail than to not try it.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Does. Second question, does failure even—do you even ever think about failure?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, if failure means death, then yeah, you think about it a lot. No. I don’t know. Can I give more than one sentence?

Yeah, because it’s interesting because in climbing, failure—like basically as a climber, you fail all the time, non-stop. As a climber, you basically try projects and you fail on them over and over and over until the one time you succeed, and then as soon as you succeed, you move on to the next thing.

So, like, yesterday I failed on a project that I’ve been working on, on and off for, like, five or six years or something. I’ve been trying it forever. It’s like my life grudge, and I almost did it yesterday, and hopefully I’ll do it on Sunday, which is the next day I get to go back there.

But basically I will have spent years, literally years failing on something, and then I’ll do it once, which will represent about, you know, 13 minutes of high-performance activity where I try really hard. Might even be less than that. I’m not sure how long it takes to climb, but it’s like in the minutes, and then after, you know, years of failure, I’ll have six minutes of success and then I’ll move on to the next thing.

So as a climber, it’s like, you don’t really define it as success and failure because you literally—you spend all your time failing.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Again, the exposure therapy.

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, it’s like you’re just always failing, but that’s the whole point. The whole point is to go out and try things that are hard for you. So by that definition, you’re not failing, you’re just going climbing. Like, climbing is failing.

What Alex Used to Value

JAY SHETTY: Yeah. Question number three. What’s something that you used to value that you don’t value anymore?

ALEX HONNOLD: I’d sort of say, I mean, maybe like the public acclaim to some extent. I think, you know, when you’re alone in your van, you’re kind of like, “I just want to be known,” basically. So you can get laid. You know, you’re kind of like, “I just want to meet somebody,” whatever. And then once you actually have some of that, you’re like, “I don’t really need all that.”

JAY SHETTY: But how long did you spend in that van?

ALEX HONNOLD: I think I lived in the van 12 years.

JAY SHETTY: 12 years?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. I mean, two different vans and—yeah, I mean, I had some girlfriends on and off and various things and—yeah, but basically lived in the van from 20 to 30. Yeah, maybe a little more than that.

JAY SHETTY: Were you happy then?

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, yeah, it’s great. But I just knew that I wouldn’t want to do that my whole life.

JAY SHETTY: What was it that made you happy then but knew it wasn’t what you wanted?

ALEX HONNOLD: Oh, living in a van is amazing when all you’re trying to do is climb at your limit. But barring even the obvious, like, you’ll lose motivation. You just don’t care. You know, after 10 or 20 years of doing something non-stop, full tilt, you’re like, “You know, do I need to do another 20 years of that?”

And I knew that one day I’d want a family and, you know, like, my aspirations to die at 80 with grandkids around me. And it’s hard to do that if you live alone in a van.

The Dream of Family

JAY SHETTY: Is that really the dream?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That’s the way some of my grandparents died. And I’m like, “That’s a great way to go.”

JAY SHETTY: Would that make you feel content? Like, if you were looking back on your life at 80, what do you think would stand out to you?

ALEX HONNOLD: Well, I don’t know. My grandma—one, my last grandma died at 95, I think. You know, surrounded by family, I’m kind of like, “That’s a good way to go.” Like, I would be delighted to have that play out.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Yeah, it’s my wife.

ALEX HONNOLD: I named my daughter after my beloved grandmother.

JAY SHETTY: Oh, really?

ALEX HONNOLD: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and really, like, is there anything better? You know, it’s like when you’re dying of old age, surrounded by family, and you had a good enough relationship with them that they’re naming their children after you, like, great success. Call it good.

Closing Thoughts

JAY SHETTY: Absolutely. Alex, is there anything that I didn’t ask you that you wish I did?

ALEX HONNOLD: No, I don’t know, but I have all kinds of questions for you, but we can chat after.

JAY SHETTY: Yeah, absolutely.

ALEX HONNOLD: Absolutely.

JAY SHETTY: Alex, it’s been such a joy getting to know you. I feel like I totally got such an education in what it really means to be fearless in a way that I didn’t expect. And those are my favorite types of conversations where I’m pleasantly surprised, blown away, inspired, and excited to see what you do on the 23rd of January.

And even though you won’t care, I’ll be rooting for you and cheering for you and watching. But thank you so much and I hope we can stay in touch.

ALEX HONNOLD: All right. No, I appreciate that. That was a total pleasure.

JAY SHETTY: Thanks, Alex.

ALEX HONNOLD: Appreciate it.

JAY SHETTY: That was awesome, man. Thank you so much.

ALEX HONNOLD: Great.

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