Read the full transcript of a conversation between Judge Andrew Napolitano and Prof. Jeffrey Sachs on Judging Freedom Podcast titled “How Israeli Extremism Undermines US Democracy and Constitutional Rights” premiered March 17, 2025.
TRANSCRIPT:
Introduction
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Hi everyone. Judge Andrew Napolitano here for Judging Freedom. Today is Monday, March 17, 2025, St. Patrick’s Day here in the West. Professor Jeffrey Sachs will be with us in just a moment on just how dangerous is it to speak freely on college campuses today, particularly if you’re not an American student?
US Military Actions in Yemen
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Professor Sachs, always a pleasure, my dear friend. Thank you very much for your time.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Great to be with you.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Before we get to free speech on college campuses, free speech in America today, what conceivable benefit was there to the United States for bombing Yemen civilians over the weekend? What could possibly have provoked Donald Trump to order that?
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Well, the government of Israel provoked Donald Trump to do this. As the government of Israel provokes the United States to be engaged in wars across the Middle East, it is still the Israeli government. And by that I mean the Netanyahu-led extremist government. It’s the goal of that government to entice the United States into a war with Iran. So when you see the US engaging in military operations in the Middle East, it’s at the behest of Israel.
My view is that 30 years of being manipulated by Israel, by the Israel lobby is enough. This is devastating for the United States. We need a foreign policy that is independent, that is America first, if I can put it that way. That is in America’s interest. We don’t have an interest in this war. We have an interest in negotiating with Iran, which has basically said repeatedly, other than when it’s faced directly with US threats that it’s ready to negotiate.
When the US blatantly threatens Iran, they say, well, no, then we can’t negotiate. But when there is an opportunity for real negotiation, we could have peace. This is the same as what has happened with Ukraine, with one difference. In Ukraine, the United States was also pursuing a foreign policy not in America’s interest. It came from the US Deep State. It was promoted by extremists in Ukraine. But Donald Trump found his way to free himself from those shackles. He told the American deep state to step down. He told the Ukrainians we’re not doing your bidding. But so far, when it comes to the Middle East and Israel, Donald Trump has continued a 30-year policy of American presidents doing the bidding of the Israel lobby.
US Foreign Policy Contradictions
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Here’s somebody who doesn’t seem to understand, excuse me, the Houthis, even though he’s the current Secretary of State of the United States:
“What we can ignore and the reason why the president mentioned Iran is because the Iranians have supported the Houthis. They provided them intelligence, they provided them guidance, they provided them weaponry. I mean, there’s no way the Houthis would have the ability to do this kind of thing unless they had support from Iran. And so this was a message to don’t keep supporting them because then you will also be responsible for what they are doing in attacking Navy ships, in attacking global shipping.”
So when you support another country’s military, you’re morally responsible. That would acknowledge the moral culpability of the United States for the genocide in Gaza and the slaughter in Ukraine.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: And I would say to the Secretary of State, discuss with Iranians, don’t enter into another war. This is straightforward. I met with leading Iranians many times during the past years and including the past year, and they are ready to negotiate. In fact, they were pleading with the Biden administration to negotiate. Why didn’t it happen? One simple word: Netanyahu.
Because Netanyahu’s theory, and he has wrecked Israel and wrecked the Middle East with this theory, is that you go to war, you show your strength, you don’t discuss with the counterpart. That’s the whole theory of Israel. We must dominate by crushing any opponent, any adversary, any potential negotiating counterpart. Instead, we must kill them. And they got the US into this mode. Overthrow regime after regime, topple the Syrian government.
Now we have the chaos in Syria after, by the way, 14 years of US-led chaos in Syria that came from Obama’s order to the CIA to overthrow the Syrian government, which came from Netanyahu’s orders, if I could put it that way, through the Israel lobby to the United States to overthrow the Syrian government. Same with Libya, same with Sudan. Now with Yemen.
I can also tell you, Judge, that in 2009, I believe it is, I went to Yemen at the invitation of the government. I was working, of course with Secretary General of the UN. I went to look at the economic situation. I came back and said, this is a desperately poor country. It needs attention and it needs help. Yemen wasn’t in war at the time.
I was laughed away in Washington by these ignoramuses because that’s who we’re led by. Who said, what do we care about Yemen? What are you talking about, Sachs, you know, your bleeding heart and so forth. They said, no, it’s not a bleeding heart, it’s very practical. You have impoverishment, you have instability, you have increasing drought, you have displacement. Take care. This is a place of instability. Do some basic things and then you won’t have chaos. Washington, pathetic, ignorant people who don’t know how to do anything preventative. And then when there is unrest, then they listen to Israel. Israel doesn’t know even the word diplomacy. Israel is kill the opponent.
US Administration Rhetoric on Iran
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Here’s Mike Waltz sounding like he’s reading a transcript written by Netanyahu:
“Iran needs to hear him loud and clear. It is completely unacceptable and it will be stopped.
The level of support that they’ve been providing the Houthis, just like they have Hezbollah, just like they have the militias in Iraq, Hamas and others. The difference here is the Houthis have incredibly sophisticated air defenses and they also have anti-shipping cruise missiles, drones, sea-skimming types of attack drones and other ballistic missiles even. They’ve launched dozens of attacks on multiple warships. Dozens of attacks, over 175 on global commerce, sank multiple ships. I just think the American people need to understand what has happened here. The previous administration had a series of feckless responses per President Trump is coming in overwhelming force. We will take, we will hold not only the Houthis accountable, but we’re going to hold Iran, their backers accountable as well. And if that means they’re targeting ships that they have put in to help their Iranian trainers, IRGC and others, that intelligence, other things that they have put in to help the Houthis attack the global economy, those targets will be on the table too.”
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Is there a dime’s worth of difference between the Biden foreign policy and the Trump foreign policy in the Middle East?
Continuity in US Middle East Policy
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: No. And it’s also the word you used, it’s script. We see narrative. You trot out the Secretary of State, you trot out the National Security adviser. Is it Saddam? Is it Bashar Al Assad? Is it Muammar Gaddafi? They each play their role, they play as villain. For some news cycles, this is the US gearing up for further military action. It’s a kind of game. Utterly tragic, utterly destructive. Israel promoted, by the way.
This is Netanyahu and the Israel lobby. There’s every possibility of negotiating with Iran. Now, this is the most basic point that I want to emphasize, and this was true during the Biden period, which was pathetic, as I’ve said often, because they couldn’t bring themselves to show an inch of light. President Trump has come in saying he’s for an American foreign policy and he’s doing it in Ukraine. And I give him credit for doing it in Ukraine because he’s saying, what is America’s interest?
Well, what is America’s interest right now in having an expanded war in the Middle East? None. By the way, we should take note. Netanyahu is ripping Israel apart to shreds right now. It’s in a constitutional crisis, it’s in a political crisis, it’s in a social crisis because of Netanyahu’s approach.
The headlines today. I was just reading in the Israeli press that this is Israel’s Weimar moment. That means when Hitler comes to power, another one. The ex-Shin Bet chief, whose Shin Bet is the FBI, knows Netanyahu’s darkest secrets. And Netanyahu, who has now fired this man, how Netanyahu’s party is officially embracing Europe’s far right extremists and on and on. He’s breaking Israel to some extent. That’s their business. But don’t let them break the United States, for heaven’s sake.
Israel’s Internal Divisions
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: I was going to ask you. I think he’s actually firing the head of Shin Bet on Wednesday. If this—and he announced it yesterday, Sunday—if this would further divide the Israelis. Alistair Crook agrees with you 100%, Professor Sachs, that the division between the religious fanatics and the secular folks is about as wide and deep as it has ever been in modern Israeli history. And Netanyahu is exacerbating it, not ameliorating it.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: It’s leading to breaking apart of Israel. Nothing less than that. This guy has been the political leader in Israel for most of the period since he first became prime minister in 1996. He’s a disaster. My point is only an American one. He’s a disaster for the United States because our governments let him have far too much say. And that continues until today. That’s the bombings of Yemen, for God’s sake.
Do we need a geography lesson for America to hear today? The greatest threat in the world is the Houthis and Iran must—where does this come from? You said it exactly. This is a script. Enough script. This is not American foreign policy that makes any sense.
Free Speech Crisis on American Campuses
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: The Israel foreign policy has reached onto the Columbia University campus. I’m going to play a clip from our friend and colleague, Professor John Mearsheimer:
“When Secretary Rubio rescinds the green card of a person he probably never heard of because of statements the person made on the Columbia University campus last April. This, of course, is a big deal here in New York. It should be a big deal everywhere because it’s an attack on freedom of speech like we haven’t seen in this country in many generations. But I suspect it is the Trump Department of Homeland Security and DOJ doing a favor for the president’s Zionist backers. The truth is, Judge, that the single greatest threat to freedom of speech in the United States at this point in time is Israel and its supporters here in the United States.”
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Agreed, Professor Sachs?
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Exactly right. What is going on on our campus, and it’s not only our campus in New York. This is an attack by Israel on American universities. And it’s not even subtle. You had Netanyahu saying when there were pro-Palestinian protesters on a US Campus warning the Americans about the US Campuses. Is that any of his business? No, it is not.
And then you had one Zionist Israel lobby group after another attacking the universities. And we see it everywhere. Again, the issue here is that the US Government feels that it has to respond to the Israel Lobby. That’s what’s happening. This isn’t even coming from Trump or coming from the administration itself. It’s like you say, they’re taking orders. It’s shocking.
And it’s worse, by the way. It’s even deeper than the free speech crisis, because to carry out this destruction of American institutions at the behest of the Israel Lobby and this extreme nationalist Zionism to carry this out, the administration is ignoring judicial decisions, judicial orders. This is even more than repressing the free speech. Judges are saying, don’t deport these people. The government saying, who the heck are you to tell us what to do?
So we are actually in a kind of crisis that even the kings of England didn’t carry out. We’ve lost habeas corpus, we’ve lost a judicial decision having the rule of law in this country in recent days. And this is coming from groups like the Israeli American Council. This is coming from the Israel Lobby. There’s no doubt about it. You know, I know, and one knows. And John Mearsheimer, my dear friend and the great expositor of this for 20 years, knows where this comes from. And it’s a shame because America does not need to be broken by Israel, not in our foreign policy, not in our wars in the Middle East, and not on our campus.
The Deportation of Student Activists
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: You and I read together the charging document filed against this student, Mahmoud Khalil, former student at Columbia University. He’s not charged with a crime. He’s not charged with an act of terrorism. He’s not charged with any misbehavior whatsoever. The only thing in there is the conclusion of Marco Rubio, who, as I said in the interview with John Mearsheimer, probably never heard of this guy. The conclusion of Marco Rubio, that Mr. Khalil’s physical presence on the Columbia University campus somehow interferes with the proper execution of American foreign policy. Here is Secretary of State Rubio attempting to justify that absurd position.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: But is there any evidence of a link to terrorism or is it just his point of view?
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Yeah, they take over. I mean, do you not. I mean, you should watch the news. These guys take over entire buildings.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: We vandalized colleges.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: They shut down colleges. I’m asking about the justification for the—
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Revocation of his visa.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Was there any evidence that was a negotiator on negotiating on behalf of people that took over a campus that vandalize buildings? Negotiating over what? That’s a crime in and of itself that they’re involved in being a negotiator. The spokesperson this, that the other.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: We don’t want—
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: We don’t need these people in our country that we never should have allowed them in in the first place.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: You know what?
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: First Amendment at all. If negotiation can be a crime.
Foreign Policy Influence
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: He works for Netanyahu. That’s all. It’s very simple. Blinken worked for Netanyahu. He works for Netanyahu. That’s the beginning and end of this. Stop. He’s the Secretary of State of the United States. Act like it. Not like a factotum of the government of Israel to deport a negotiator. And by the way, the questioner had it wrong. Doesn’t have a visa. He’s a permanent resident with a green card.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Right. Right. Today.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: It’s unbelievable. And it is not even American policy. This is being led from abroad and everyone that is involved in this sees it clearly. Like John and I see it clearly. Who is pushing this? Who are the protagonists? And if they’re not, let them stand up and stop wrecking our country.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Over the weekend, a physician was deported from Rhode Island, Brown University. A professor at the medical school at Brown University because of what the feds read on her iPhone. Not because of anything she did, but because of documents she stored on her mobile device. You know, this is really very bad because it won’t end with this. They’ll find ways to silence speech that seriously challenges them. Jeff, these are extremely perilous times.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: The doctor who was deported against a judicial order—absolutely, in direct violation of a judicial order—is a kidney transplant doctor who was awarded permanent residency in the United States. Is this going to help our country? It’s going to destroy our country.
And until we have a foreign policy that is an American foreign policy, not an Israel Bibi foreign policy, we will continue to be wrecked.
This is about what Israel is doing to us right now. And it’s not Israel. I want to be understood. It is an extremist government led by an extremist who has broken his own country, who has put his own country in a constitutional crisis, who has championed America to go to war in Syria, in Lebanon, in Sudan, in Libya, in Iraq. And now he’s obviously, from the clips we watched, goading America to go to war in Iran. It’s time for an America first foreign policy. This is not that. This is a radical extremist Bibi foreign policy.
Constitutional Crisis
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Thank you, Professor Sachs. Darker days are going to come.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: I hope not again.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: You know, I just saw the President’s communications director, they used to call that job Press Secretary, justifying the deportation of people who had been ordered retained here because the plane was over international orders and therefore the court didn’t have jurisdiction over the plane. Well, that is absurd. Wherever the government goes, the Constitution goes with it. The pilots of the plane were not the defendants. Their bosses, the President, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Homeland Security—they were the defendants who were ordered restrained and who thumbed their nose at the judicial order. Where is John Roberts? Because this can’t keep going on. If you don’t like an order from a judge, appeal it.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: It’s very sad and very worrisome. You know, we should be supporting our government to succeed, not to fall to pieces. That doesn’t mean cheerleading stupidities, failed wars, expanded wars, illegal unconstitutional actions. It means encouraging our government to be successful.
And I want President Trump to be successful. And I like what he’s doing in Ukraine to end this war, but I want him also to be president of the United States, not beholden to a radical extremist government of Israel. And so we could have our own foreign policy in the Middle East.
You know that the Arab countries, Iran, indeed the whole 57 countries of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation across the world are telling the administration, we want peace, we want normal relations with Israel. But Israel needs to end its war, its wars across the region. Israel needs to stop using this extraordinary violence to prevent a state of Palestine so that Palestinian people can also have their country in peace next to Israel. That’s all that this is.
There’s every opportunity for success. I am all over the world, as you know, just speaking to world leaders. I have been in past weeks. I will be in coming weeks. I was at the UN during this week. Everybody wants peace. Everybody wants Israel’s security, but not Israel’s security as a maniacal state intent on destroying everyone around them and intent on dominating the 8 million people of Palestine.
That’s not what people want. People want peace with mutual security of the peoples of the region of the Middle East. Donald Trump has it within reach. It’s not even hard. He could make peace for the first time in the Middle East for a century by just actually following what is a worldwide consensus other than Bibi Netanyahu and Bezalel Smotrich, two violent extremists.
And in fact, the people of Israel, the people of Palestine, the people of the region want peace. They want to raise their children. They don’t want to see them dead under the rubble. Donald Trump has that within reach. He has to stop bowing to the Israel lobby, and he has to protect our institutions in this country, our constitution, habeas corpus, free speech, judicial orders, against the kind of lawlessness that we see underway in Israel just now. Today, there’s a constitutional crisis in Israel, but they’re transferring it to the United States, too. And there’s no reason we should be suffering such a crisis at their behest.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Thank you, Professor Sachs. Safe travels, my dear friend, thank you so much for giving us your time today. We’ll look forward to seeing you again soon.
PROF. JEFFREY SACHS: Thank you.
ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Coming up tomorrow at 8 in the morning, Ambassador Charles Freeman at 11 in the morning, Max Blumenthal at 3 in the afternoon, Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, Judge Napolitano for Judging Freedom.
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