Rami Niranjan Desai: What Is The Root Cause Of The Manipur Conflict? (Transcript)

So, if you think that it was not the recommendation of the High Court, then who really threw the first punch in your opinion? Was it the Kukis or was it the Meiteis who said that this is enough, this is not right? Whatever it is, who started this thing?

Rami Niranjan Desai: So, I wouldn’t want to conjecture here because I really, you know, I don’t have the evidence in front of me. But this is what had been happening. You know, this was only one part of the conflict. There had been squamishes before that, you know, and that had been happening, you know, every month from the beginning of this year or even from the end of last year.

And a lot of it had to do with the removal of illegal settlements in forest areas. And like you know that forest areas come, you know, they are protected areas. They come under the central government. Settlement there is not allowed. And you’d be surprised that there was actually somebody who, one of the legislative assembly members who was a tribal member, who was allocated this job of identifying illegal settlements in forest areas and illegal settlers. And almost, I think, if I’m not wrong, the number 38 villages were, you know, they were identified and this report was left midway.

This was pre-conflict, you know. So, of course, you know, on one hand we have, a community saying that there was no dialogue done before the, before canceling the licenses of these villages and, there should have been some dialogue. And obviously there’s another side saying, well, they were illegal. So, there were no intensity conflicts, squamishes happening already before this situation happened. But again, if we take the line of thought that it is the schedule tribe inclusion recommendation made by the High Court, which is the trigger, then this is what I have to say.

I think that if you want to oppose something, you have the right to oppose something. This is a democratic country and we’ve seen how absolutely functional our freedom of speech is here. You know, therefore you could have used your voice for dissent. But I cannot legitimize dissent turning into anarchy. And that is what happens if we take this situation, which is the schedule tribe inclusion as the trigger.

Now, if we go back and say, well, there were no intensity squamishes happening, then I have a lot of people, you know, I would hold a lot of people accountable. For example, illegal infiltration, we know that that’s been happening. We also know that it’s very tough to stop illegal infiltration because these are very large borders. You have 1640 kilometers of border, you know, Indo-Myanmar border. These are thickly forested, densely, forested, difficult terrain. It is very difficult to man them. Even if you fence it, you are only as strong as your weakest link.

You know, but however, we have known that this infiltration has been slowly trickling in and it’s not a new thing. The settlement of this infiltration is an issue. Now, if you look at Mizoram, the neighboring state, you have 40,000 refugees that have been registered. If you look at Manipur, there wasn’t a single refugee that was registered. So this to me becomes problematic and becomes reason for discontent and suspicion and anxiety from one community to another.

You know, of course, then there are other situations like the SOO agreements and, you know, the militancy and so on and so forth. But yes, if your question is, where do I think this started from? And if I was to take the popular narrative of the inclusion in the schedule tribe list, then I think the people, the communities that had a problem with this sort of recommendation should have held back on their actions.

Sree Iyer: Rami ji, one question here. Myanmar is pushing the Rohingyas out of its territory. I mean, they have a right to live in that land. I don’t know why neither the UN nor the United States nor anybody else is censoring Myanmar and saying that, look, these are your people. You have to find a way to coexist with them. You cannot be driving them out. Whatever the problem India is facing, I believe that Bangladesh is facing 10 times that much influx. I could be wrong about this.

But why are the normally, you know, organizations like UN or United States not talking to Myanmar and saying, why are you doing this?

Rami Niranjan Desai: So, you see, the Myanmar question is complicated. People coming in are not Rohingyas. This is from the umbrella group of the Chin Kuki tribe, you know. So, let me go back a little bit into history. The word Kuki, the word Naga, this is not one solid tribe. These were multiple different tribes, multiple different sub-tribes that come up under this nomenclature, which was given to them by the British for the British to understand it better. And of course, they are loosely connected. You can call them cousin tribes.

But let’s say the Nagas. The Nagas have about 16 plus sub-tribes under them. They didn’t even often speak the same language. You know, they had very different sort of identities. It was the British that brought them together under the umbrella term Nagas. It’s very, very recent. If you were to ask some of the Naga grandmothers even nowadays have identified as Nagas, this word would be alien to them.

Now, it’s the same with Kukis. Kukis also is not one homogenous tribe. There are many sub-tribes, you know. There are the Mars, there are the Paites, so on and so forth. The Chin is the umbrella tribe. And in Myanmar, the Chin state has a problem of insurgency with or against the Myanmar government. And that has been a problem for a really long time. So, this region has been unstable. Myanmar is a very large country. It has different ethnic groups. It has areas that are completely difficult to govern. There have been multiple insurgencies.

And you know, historically, if you were to look at it, even some of the longest running separatist groups like the NSCN were, got passage of way via Myanmar to go to places in China to get their training. So, all the NSCN leaders used this route to go into China. So, you know, this area has always been a bit problematic to us in terms of the fact that there are live unstable populations and unstable geographical areas already.

Now, there has been a crackdown on these groups, you know, groups that are considered insurgent groups by the Myanmar government. There has been a crackdown on them. And therefore, there has been a certain amount of influx into India. Now, when we talk about, you know, when we talk about the UN, fair enough, why haven’t they called them out on this sort of thing? But I don’t think a lot of these people understand now.

For example, the United States has put sanctions on Myanmar, and they’ve called it Burma 2020. See, whether you call it Myanmar, whether you call it Burma, this has very different connotations. But they specifically called it Burma 2020, and they’ve put sanctions. Now, the problem with sanctions or the problem with going against the present regime is that the Chinese footprint is increasing in Myanmar. And you are going to give more leverage to China to step in. Therefore, India’s neutral stance, I think, really is a class act.

Because, you know, as much as we believe in democracy, and we’ve said this, that, you know, we believe that Myanmar must work towards achieving democracy, again, the fact is, they are our neighbors. The fact is that it’s a hugely important place for us, because that is where we fulfill our dreams of our Act East Policy. That is where we connect to Southeast Asia from. And more importantly, the gateway to that is Moreh in Manipur.

So for us to be able to coordinate, to have dialogue open with Myanmar, to be able to coordinate on issues like this with Myanmar is very important. So, you know, I personally don’t care whether, any of these international agencies pull up Myanmar or not. My focus is on how India deals with Myanmar. And I think so far, it has been a great act of foreign policy to be neutral.

Now, the result of that is, if you remember, right at the outset of this conflict, the military of the Myanmar government has taken out a notice. That notice warned its citizens living across the border in India illegally not to go against the law, not to indulge in any sort of communal activities and not to indulge in any sort of illegal activities like Poppy growing.

Now, this has very important, it’s not going to solve the conflict, but it’s a very important message that goes out. You know, if a government is accepting that our citizens are causing a certain amount of problem there, that our citizens are indulging in illegal activity, it gives you some amount of strength of conviction that this is what’s happening. Of course, even after that, I have had people from either or of the community in Manipur say, no, there’s no illegal infiltration. No, there’s no Poppy cultivation. This is absolutely wrong because here you have a neighborhood country from where these infiltrators are coming who are accepting that infiltration is happening.

So, you know, in context of Myanmar, I think it’s a very important relationship. It has its own problems. It has areas that it cannot cover. You know, this is a problem that we are going to have with the Kaladan Multi-Modal Project when it goes into a second stage of road building. You know, we are going to have this problem because it goes through these areas. But that’s something that we can still deal with.

At this point, I think our immediate concern there in Myanmar should be this sort of verification of the immigrants that are coming in. You see, we also have 16 kilometers on either side, which is free movement area, wherein immigrants can come in, do their trade and go out. The reason being that before these boundaries were drawn, tribal communities had a certain amount of free movement going, you know, from one place to another. They were dependent on trade. They were dependent on the interaction.

And therefore, there is this allotment of 16 kilometers of free movement area on either side. However, the problem is that Assam Rifles doesn’t have any mechanism, and of course, you know, that goes back to the government of India as well, wherein they track the immigrants coming in and going back. So once they come in, they don’t know who’s come in and who’s gone back. And I think those are the initiatives that they are starting to take now, the government of India is starting to take now so that they can track the movements of all sort of cross-border movements.

Has India Recognized Myanmar’s Govt?

Sree Iyer: Has India recognized Myanmar’s military government now after they have overthrown Aung San Suu Kyi?

Rami Niranjan Desai: India has kept its channels open. Like I said, you know, they’ve played a neutral sort of observer. They’ve said that we support democracy, and we hope that there can be a state of democracy. But it isn’t as if, you know, they’ve ceased dialogue.

What is The Way Forward in Manipur?

Sree Iyer: The question is, will this thing continue? Will Rohingyas continue to leave Myanmar and settle themselves all over India? Because this has reached even the southernmost regions in India. I’m eyewitness to that, Ramiji. I’ve seen this thing. So it is a concern because the politicians in India see an opportunity, see a captive vote bank and things go downhill from there. How does one stop this? Because somewhere, something has to stop. What is the way forward in Manipur? I think that is a bigger question I’m asking.

Rami Niranjan Desai: So, see, if you’re talking about Rohingyas, that’s a different set of problems. You know, a lot of the Rohingyas that we’ve seen and the way the police has caught, they caught from the Tripura area. And this is going to be a continuous problem, sir. This is not going to be a problem that we’re going to be able to solve very easily because of basic reasons.

Reasons that India is far more attractive than any of our countries in the neighborhood. Economically, you know, safety-wise. If you compare India to any of the neighboring countries, I think India would seem the most attractive. Over and above that, I think also we have to look at this in the future. There’s a lot of climate change that’s happening. One of the things that experts have said, and I’m no expert on environments or climate, but this is something that is often spoken about, is that a 0.5 degree change in temperatures will bring 10 million refugees from Bangladesh on our doorstep.

So the problem is not just about Rohingya, the problem is much bigger, for which the solutions are going to be, we have to talk through, you know, we have to think through it, are not going to be a single-dimensional solution. We have to have a multi-dimensional solution. And yes, I agree with you that the Rohingya problem is a problem. It’s not just a problem onto the Northeast, but we’ve also seen the kind of settlements that have happened from other routes on the Northwestern frontier, which is in Kashmir, where we have found illegal settlers of the Rohingyas marrying locals.

Like I’m saying, you know, for us, Rohingyas is one problem. What do we do when that kind of immigration lands up on our borders? Now, also, you know, you must understand that a lot of this immigration, whether it’s the Northwestern frontier, whether it’s the Northeastern frontier, both frontiers are difficult frontiers for us. If you look at the Northwestern frontier, you have Pakistan, which, you know, the state of its economy, you know, the rise of the Taliban’s impact on Pakistan, everything’s included.

You know, the kind of dynamics we are seeing there, you know, is dynamics that we haven’t seen before. You know, we have, you know, we have the BLA, which is partnering with the Taliban. You know, we never thought that these 10 unions would ever come together. You know, an implosion there will bring women and children to our doorstep. An implosion in the Northeastern frontier will bring women and children to our doorstep.

You know, and the Northeastern frontier, again, the same thing, if there’s a regime change, if there’s climate change, if they are on our doorstep, this is a fact that no military, no defense force will ever be able to prevent them from coming in. Because force will never be used by any defense forces across the world against women and children. That is the larger question.

Sree Iyer: So, in a way, the IMF loan to Pakistan is sort of a blessing in disguise.

Rami Niranjan Desai: You know, I don’t know. It’s like, you know, they are getting money to pay it further, you know, onto, you know, their loans. It’s like a vicious cycle. So, in my opinion, yes, I don’t think, I don’t think Pakistan implosion, an implosion of Pakistan would really be great.

Sree Iyer: Yeah. Thank you so much. And let’s have a few questions, with your permission. I have our three or four questions from our viewers. If I could just ask them for you. Just one moment, please.

Possible to Declare NE as UT?

Rahul Rathod wants to know, is it possible to declare Northeast as Union Territory, as we have seen with J&K? Local politics complicate already sensitive states. After Union Territory, J&K is not boiling like before.

Rami Niranjan Desai: Yes, the J&K is different to the Northeast, you know. I think, I still think that, the Northeast, we must give credit to the Northeast for having the kind of relative peace that it had, for being able to change the perception that we had of the Northeast. So, when I used to travel 10-15 years ago, everybody used to be really worried about, you know, you’re going to the Northeast, it’s so dangerous, you know, travel is so difficult. It’s, you know, it’s almost, it was psychologically so distant to us.

But, in the last six years, seven years, eight years, the change that I have seen is enormous. The relative peace that has come in, in the last six years, even in Manipur, there were no squamishes. And I often, often quote this, and many people who watch me must have seen me repeat this. Ten years ago, there were no restaurants, there were no places to stay, there were no young kids who were coming back, finishing college and then coming back.

You know, when I started going in the last six years, you know, I saw young kids finishing college, you know, getting their work experience and coming back to Imphal, which was very heartwarming, because it tells you about the situation with Imphal. They were starting restaurants that were world-class restaurants, there were world-class hotels, there was infrastructure coming up. You know, so I think this is something obviously for the people of the Northeast to decide, for people of Manipur to decide, for the government of India to decide.

In my opinion, I think being able to govern your own state is a great, you know, I think it is a great privilege. And I think that is what we should be aiming at. And, you know, we should be aiming at bringing back normalcy. And, of course, at this point, there is a trust deficit from all corners against the political dispensation. And that, obviously, our democratic environment allows us to change. So, yes, that would be my limited take on that.

Sree Iyer: You know, before I go to the next question, my own doubt, Rami ji, Manmohan Singh talked about Look East policy. Modi government has done an Act East policy. They want to have a connect all the way from Delhi to deep south, all the way through Myanmar and beyond. And the same thing China is also trying to do. It is damming up Ma Ganga, which is called Mekong there, or Airavati, which is the elephant of Indra, the river there. Now, with this, I mean, they would definitely continue to see progress, but blocks like this, would it not set back that initiative?

Rami Niranjan Desai: Of course, you know, and this is what I said, you are back on, you know, Manipur, which has become a vision of peace and has become a state that was unrecognizable because of the progress so far. Again, today is being seen from the lens of conflict. And like I said, Moreh on the border of Manipur is our gateway to Southeast Asia. This is what is really going to impact our Act East policy. And we’ve done really, really well with our Act East policy in terms of stabilizing the Northeast.

Never in history have we had so many insurgents come on board. Right down to their rehabilitation has been brought through. We’ve never seen such comprehensive, such detailed rehabilitation packages for insurgents who have come overboard. The kind of infrastructure we’ve seen, the kind of connectivity that we’ve seen has had an impact on the Northeast in ways that we’ve never seen before.

Imphal, there was a time when you couldn’t find a direct flight there. The flights were hugely expensive. Today, you have multiple flights a day. You know, you can reach there quickly. And we have the railroads coming up. You know, so all of this will stop at this point because of the conflict. And who is it going to impact the most? It’s going to impact, again, the people of Manipur more than anybody else.

Now, we have to look at the larger context. You know, one of the grievances that have come has been that, oh, there isn’t enough development in the hill area. How will there be development? How will there be infrastructure if you’re not going to open yourselves up? Because infrastructure and development is going to bring a certain amount of connectivity, a certain amount of migrant population that will have to settle down legally. And that’s not going to happen just with Imphal being a place where you can settle down. So I think we have to open our minds up. I think we have to look at it in ways of what the Northeast can be, what Manipur can be, and what we’ve brought it down to.

Sree Iyer: Thank you. And let’s go to the next question.Is the 6th Schedule of constitution one of the historic blunders as it did not serve any purpose, neither development, neither or nor Northeast people became tolerant towards democracy? They are still fighting civil war.

Rami Niranjan Desai: See, I wouldn’t say that this is civil war and I wouldn’t say that the Northeast people are fighting civil wars. You know, I would say that, yes, Northeast has been in a state of flux for many years, but that has changed. Now, why it was like that is very evident to everybody. You know, there were certain British policies that were brought in, but also this contrived idea of the tribe. That was also brought in by the British.

You know, we didn’t really have these bifurcations of tribe, non-tribe, animist, non-animist, just the way the past was created in a way for the British to understand, in four bifurcations. You know, the same way these kind of divisions were created. And these are not natural to our civilization unless, because we live side by side for thousands of years. That’s why we have the kind of connectivity, civilizational connectivity, historical connectivity.

You know, we see this in our history books. You know, we see mention of Kamlok, we see mention of [Bhaskar Barman], Rukmini, Chitrangada, Hidamba, all being connected in one way or another to the Northeast and very alive in our civilizational memory. So, of course, you know, there are these divisions that were made and these divisions then were implemented through the rules and regulations that were brought in.

So, for example, the Inner Line regulations, you know, the scheduled areas. Now, these are rules and regulations that we don’t need right now, yet are being implemented. I mean, unfortunately, for much broader data, you know. So, yes, there are problems with these kind of, call them rules or regulations or call them privileges. There are problems because once you give it, you can never take it back.

Also, it comes with a lot of benefits. So, for example, in Manipur, the tribal communities will get income tax exemption. They will have 31% reservation in administration and education. This is not just — the people of all tribals. They have their own Hill Council that can determine on majority of issues pertaining to themselves, like health care, family laws, so on and so forth, everything except financial bills.

Now, who will want to let go of these privileges? You know, and of course, while we accept and recognize and appreciate the uniqueness of these communities, of these tribal communities, my problem is that a lot of these rules, regulations, policies, you know, which were brought in in terms of protecting tribes, to me, a lot of them eventually build long-term divisions like they have built in our country versus tribals versus non-tribals, you know.

I mean, I think we need to go back into our own civilization and intelligence to understand how complex societies like ours work seamlessly and proceed and bring that back.

Sree Iyer: Thank you so much. And this is the last question from our viewers. Is there any situation in which Biren Singh is not sacked or removed? It’s not an if, but when. Would that make even a difference?

Rami Niranjan Desai: I think the last part of this question is very, very important. Would that even make a difference? You know, because the fault lines, I believe this, that the fault lines are very deepened between the two communities because of the level of violence that we’ve seen.

And also, like I said, you know, there’s a response threshold wherein it almost has come to a point where one or the other cannot take it anymore. So I think those fault lines have deepened. And I think this is not so much about the political dispensation anymore as it was before, as it is about civil society coming together. You see, the fact of the matter is that these communities have lived together historically. They don’t have anywhere else to go. They have to continue to live together and they will have to make amends.

However, this is going to be difficult unless civil society does come up and take responsibility and begin dialogue. There was a point right at the beginning of this conflict, and I have met the Kukis, I have met the Meiteis, I have met representations from both ends. There was a time when I could see the clear difference where one community said we’re willing to have dialogue and the other community said, no, we don’t want any dialogue. We want a solution before peace.

I have seen the same people change. And that gives me hope. I have the same people saying, no, you know, it’s gone out of hand. We didn’t expect the fringe elements to take over. Unfortunately, that’s what happens in conflict. You know, eventually the reason why you started the conflict is because of the fringe elements that take over. And I’m sure that, people like you and me, the gentleman who’s asking this question, you know, we are not the kind of people who even if, you know, a sophisticated weapon was in our hands, we would use it on another person.

But, you know, why does it happen? It’s happened because there are these vested interests, there are these fringe groups, there are these motivations within communities who are willing to take it this far. But, you know, that dialogue has changed. I have seen people saying now that yes, you know, I think dialogue is necessary. Of course, that dialogue will have to have neutral observers. Who those neutral observers is for these communities to decide.

In my opinion, it would be the Nagas. The Nagas are the third component in Manipur. And they have been through their prolonged experience, their emotional experience of insurgency. They know how to tackle this. You know, really my point here is that as much as we want to put the responsibility on the government, and the government must be held responsible and accountable. And, you know, I’m sure the population in Manipur, the communities in Manipur will decide for themselves when the election comes up.

But, more than that, I think it’s important to hold ourselves responsible. Because, you know, we have seen people give hate speeches. We have seen people instigate this. We have seen communities come out on the roads. Now, there are many, many examples where the fact of militancy, the fact of illegal immigration has been broken solely by the involvement of the community members that live on the borders and live in these areas.

I have often given, you know, an example of Tripura where the community that lived on the border refused to give passage of way to infiltrators and insurgents coming in from Bangladesh. And that became a major reason that, you know, they were able to tackle the insurgency in Tripura. We have seen Kachin women come out and become informers, even if not like formal informers, but have informed on the kind of passage of way or sheltering that happens with insurgents.

A lot of this happens because they are, you know, cousin tribes and you feel a sense of affinity. But, the fact of the matter is that illegal infiltration is illegal infiltration and any sort of settlement that is happening within these populations, you know, it is the responsibility of civil society to call them out. Because then, otherwise, the responsibility of the repercussions of that become yours.

You know, so whether this government goes, doesn’t go, you know, we have to wait and watch. Nobody can predict this because if you remember when Rahul Gandhi visited Manipur, the very next day, the Chief Minister went out to give his resignation and was stopped by people. You know, so whether a community likes it, whether people like it, whether they don’t, the fact of the matter is that by the virtue of us being a democratic nation, considerations of all populations are taken in.

So, I don’t think the real question is about what is going to happen with the political dispensation. I think the real question is how now the communities in Manipur are going to tackle this. We’ve been embarrassed on an international front. We have had vested interests right to the United Nations, right to international authorities to come in, interfere in our internal matters. You know, I think now voices need to come up that say, look, we don’t need anybody to come and solve our problems. We’re going to solve our problems because we’re very capable of doing it.

You know, you see what happens is people at this point, because there is this sort of loyalty towards one community or another and, you know, they want to be heroes in their community. They take a hard line of stance. What they don’t understand is the people who come out of these communities who are going to call for unification, who are going to call for cessation of, who are going to call for some amount of peace, are people who are going to be remembered and treated very kindly. And that is going to be very important for us. So, yes, I think civil society role is very important.

Sree Iyer: Thank you so much, Ramiji. It’s time for the moderate Manipur to wake up and assert themselves and make sure that the fringe elements don’t set the narrative for the entire state. I’m sure messages like this are now beginning to resonate and I’m hoping that things will come back to normal and India will start progressing again on the Act East Policy.

Ramiji, thank you so much for spending time with us and you’ve really given a very, what I would call as an objective perspective about looking at it from a historical angle as well as what exactly is the problem there, what needs to happen. So, let’s hope that normalcy returns very soon. Thank you once again. Viewers, please like, share, subscribe to our channel. Don’t forget to click on the bell button for notifications. Ramiji, thanks once again. Namaskar.

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