The Why Files: w/ Tim Hogan on Templars, Atlantis, and the Ark of the Covenant (Transcript)

This is really where the Templar Order developed its wealth. And because when they were created, they didn’t have to answer to anybody but the Pope, it gave them a lot of freedom and latitude to do a lot of things — including associating with other religious traditions and cultures that didn’t exist in Europe.

As they went into the Holy Land, there were groups like the Druze and the Sabeans and others that were translating Greek and Roman texts, and these hadn’t made their way into Europe yet. By having these associations, the Templars were able to gain knowledge that just wasn’t accessible at the time in Europe. They learned of traditions like Pythagorean traditions, the works of Plato, and things that we kind of take for granted now that just were not available at the time.

They also had to have associations with Islamic groups that were already existing in the Holy Land. While they later would get dragged into having to fight and defend territories on behalf of the Church, that was not their main focus. Their main focus was actually establishing connections with these different traditions so they could gain their knowledge and bring that knowledge back to Europe — really to try to get Europe out of the Dark Ages.

They believed that if they gained the technology and the philosophies of what they believed was the pre-flood civilization — the civilization before Noah —

AJ GENTILE: Don’t. Don’t do it yet.

TIM HOGAN: Don’t do it yet. Okay, okay, okay.

AJ GENTILE: Because you’re going to get me excited. And as we get down there — you’re a brilliant storyteller, so if you see me almost stepping on a punchline or stealing your thunder, slow me down. But take us to 1307. They’ve accumulated wealth. What happened?

The Fall of the Templars: Friday the 13th

TIM HOGAN: So they’ve accumulated all this wealth. The King of France at the time, Philip the Fair, needed money. He wanted to set himself up as the new war king of Europe, and he also wanted to control the Church. He had already, by some accounts, poisoned one Pope and assassinated another to try to get the Pope he wanted onto the throne. He eventually got Clement V onto the throne.

He also owed a bunch of money to the Templar Order. They had been loaning him money all along, but he needed more. He knew that they had amassed a great fortune at the Paris Commandery. So what he did was, in September of 1307, he issued arrest warrants that were to be implemented in October — October 13th, in fact. Friday, October 13th, 1307. The plan was to arrest the entire Templar Order and bring them up on charges, with the hopes of securing their wealth.

Now, the Templar Order had spies everywhere. They knew about this. They set up a plan where Jacques de Molay, who was the Grand Master of the Templar Order, kind of stayed behind in Paris. They normally had about 100,000 Templars in Paris — most of them fled. A few stayed behind to appear as business as usual, because the Templars had a fleet. They had an entire fleet.

And so the night before, on October 12th, 1307, the fleet disappears along with all the wealth of the Grand Commandery of Paris. Jacques de Molay stayed behind with a few hundred other knights. The arrest orders were implemented on Friday, October 13th. They were rounded up. This is the origin of the unlucky date of Friday the 13th.

And then they were tortured for seven years. Jacques de Molay thought — and by the way, the Pope also wanted the Templar Order to merge with their rival order, which was known as the Knights Hospitaller. The Knights Hospitaller later became the Knights of Malta, but that’s a different story. The Templar Order wouldn’t do it. Jacques de Molay wouldn’t do it because they would have lost all of their freedoms.

The Templars were known for fighting for the freedoms of individuals. They helped instigate the signing of the Magna Carta, for example, which gave people rights for the first time in England.

AJ GENTILE: God-given rights.

TIM HOGAN: God-given rights, yeah. And this was talked about even in Wolfram von Eschenbach’s Parzival, which was a book published in the 1200s, where it says the Templars were these Grail guardians — the guardians of the Grail. And it said on the Grail altar: “If any Templar should become ruler of a foreign people, let him ensure that they are given their God-given rights.”

Well, this is the first time in history where it’s even suggested that people have God-given rights. Rights back then were said to come from the Pope or from the King, and that was it. So the fact that the Templars were fighting for people to have rights — this was bad for business for both the Pope and the King. That’s why they entered into this conspiracy to suppress the Templar Order.

The Chinon Parchment: Forgery or Fact?

AJ GENTILE: And this brings me to a question I want to get your take on, because I heard you mention this recently and it kind of shocked me a little bit. I’m going to tell the quick version of the mainstream story.

In the early 2000s, a document was discovered in the Vatican archives called the Chinon Parchment, where Pope Clement V absolves the Knights. And I kind of assumed that was true, but you have a different take.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, everyone assumes it’s true. But here’s the thing — Napoleon raided the Vatican archives, and people forget that. Napoleon’s personal physician was Bernard Raymond Fabré-Palaprat, who was the Grand Master of the Templar Order underground. Napoleon himself believed he was the illegitimate grandson of Bonnie Prince Charlie, who was also a Templar out of Scotland.

So one of the things Napoleon was doing was looking for Templar artifacts. Specifically, when he raided the Vatican, he brought all those archives back to France, where they were sifted through at St. Sulpice. The Chinon Parchment was never found.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: Then, all of a sudden, years later, Dan Brown becomes popular talking about Templar stuff, it becomes this big thing, and lo and behold, out of nowhere, this new Chinon Parchment is found absolving the Templar Order. And it’s being only sketchily verified as even being legitimate. Everyone just accepts it as real. I don’t. I think it was a later forgery.

AJ GENTILE: And after I heard your explanation of it, I’m leaning your way — because it doesn’t absolve the knights as much as it absolves the Church.

TIM HOGAN: That’s exactly right. The Church sanctioned torture and accused the Templar Order of all kinds of made-up heresies that we now know are just fabricated.

And then ultimately in 1314, Jacques de Molay, as well as a number of other knights — Geoffrey de Charney, who was one of his top preceptors of the Troyes region, and others — they were all burnt at the stake. And Jacques de Molay, right before he died, said, “I do not consent to any of these false charges.” And he told both Clement V and Philip the Fair that they would both join him in the afterlife within a year.

AJ GENTILE: This is the curse.

TIM HOGAN: This was the curse. And they both did. They both died within a year. Which has led to some speculation that they were secretly poisoned or secretly assassinated.

AJ GENTILE: Right. But I think the Pope was poisoned — because I think he actually died of dysentery.

Tim Hogan’s Templar Initiation and Family Legacy

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So that was in March of 1314. They were both in. Jacques de Molay was burnt just outside of Notre Dame Cathedral. And to this day there’s still a plaque there where he was burned, on the island there, just outside of Notre Dame.

AJ GENTILE: I didn’t know that.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. Some people speculated that because the Templars were largely responsible for building those cathedrals. They funded them, they provided the manpower, and then they incorporated esoteric knowledge that they were bringing back from the Middle East onto those cathedrals.

AJ GENTILE: Sure. And we can see their graffiti all over Europe. So before we get into the real history, can you take us through your personal experience? You initiated as a page at age eight.

TIM HOGAN: Eight. Yeah.

AJ GENTILE: What is that?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So there’s this whole tradition that was set up specifically for young people to go through this knighthood program. I didn’t know it at the time. I was just participating in it, but my first induction ceremony was at age 8.

AJ GENTILE: Did you know your family was so deeply involved? No, you didn’t.

TIM HOGAN: I had no clue. I wasn’t even told till I was 18. So I had gone through this whole program, this knighthood program, where I spent six years trying to attain these different ranks of knighthood.

AJ GENTILE: Mom, you should have sent me to this instead of the Boy Scouts. I’m just saying.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, well, the Boy Scouts were founded by Templars, too. Powell was a Templar. If you look at the old Boy Scout handbooks, they talk about how a modern Boy Scout is basically a Templar.

But yeah, so I went through this program, and then by the age of 18, I had attained this rank of Sir Knight within it. Along the way, I had to work on all these different things. I had to study the mysteries of the Grail, and I had to try to inculcate these values — these virtues — trying to become a good citizen and leader in the world and all this stuff.

By the time I was 18 and I had gone through this program, I realized it was all the people who had set up this program. I started looking into it and realized it was all these Freemasons and Templars. And so I was like, “I think I need to become a Freemason.”

So I went — I remember I was in college at the time — and I went over to my mom’s house to do laundry, as we all do. And she said, “What are you up to?” And I said, “Well, I think I’m going to try to become a Freemason.” And she said, “Both your grandfathers are Freemasons. Your dad went through that system. Your great grandparents are all involved in it. You have a long family line involved in all that.”

I was like, “What?” And she was like, “Yeah, it was your grandpa that had you put in that program when you were a kid.” I had no clue about any of this.

A Deep Family Legacy in Freemasonry and the Templar Order

TIM HOGAN: So she encouraged me to reach out to them. And then I found out that I had this long family lineage on both sides of my family involved in all this going way back, including my great grandfather seven generations back, who was the martyr of the Revolutionary War. He was General Joseph Warren. He’s the one who initiated Paul Revere. He’s the one who set up the Boston Tea Party. And he was a Grand Commander in the Templar Order at the time.

His brother John Warren was the first Grand Master of Freemasonry in the forming United States. And his son, Joseph Warren Jr., ended up marrying Elizabeth Burns, who was the poet Robert Burns’ daughter. And Robert Burns was also a Templar in Scotland. He wrote “Auld Lang Syne,” that we all sing on New Year’s Day every year, amongst other things.

So my middle name is Warren because that’s my mother’s maiden name. And the Warren side of the family all goes back to that. My grandfather, Hugh Warren, he was named Hugh after Hugh de Payens, of course. And he’s the one who got me involved in all this stuff.

And then on my dad’s side, Howard Hogan was really active in Freemasonry, was a high degree Mason in Nebraska.

AJ GENTILE: And your father was a very popular politician in Colorado.

TIM HOGAN: Yes, correct. Yeah. He had been raised through a DeMolay program when he was growing up. And he became a Mason. And he was mayor of Aurora, Colorado, which is like the 50th largest city in the U.S. — it’s bigger than Salt Lake City or Philadelphia or St. Louis or a lot of major cities we think of. But he was mayor and he was involved in all this stuff. But I had no clue.

The Denver Airport and the Masonic Connection

AJ GENTILE: Well, growing up — and my audience knows a lot about the Denver airport and the Masonic connection — your dad was involved in that.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, yeah. So he’s the one who — so the Denver airport was annexed from Aurora.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So that wasn’t even Denver territory.

AJ GENTILE: Right. It was outside. Right.

TIM HOGAN: It was outside of Denver. So they annexed it and the agreement was that Denver would get the taxes from the airport and Aurora would get the taxes from any hotels and stuff that were set up around there. But he also helped set up what’s known as the Gaylord Resort that’s out there on Denver International Airport property, and it has the convention center attached to it. And the convention center is actually named after my father — it’s the Stephen D. Hogan Convention Center — because he was all involved in all that stuff.

And I have a brother-in-law who’s also involved right now in the restructuring of the terminal of the airport. And then I was involved early on. There’s a Masonic time capsule out there.

AJ GENTILE: Oh yes.

TIM HOGAN: And it has the braille plaque on it. For the longest time that braille plaque was actually a plastic plaque — most people don’t know this. And so the secretary of my Masonic lodge, his name was Warren Glover — he passed away years ago — but he and I went out to the Denver International Airport to put the actual metal plaque on there. So I was involved in some ways of actually dealing with that thing. And it’s not alien code, and if you push the right buttons, nothing’s going to open up like some people say. It’s just a braille plaque.

AJ GENTILE: But the Templars are famous for digging tunnels and hiding things, of course. What’s under that airport? Tell us.

TIM HOGAN: Well, I’ve been down under there. In fact, you can find where the luggage is.

AJ GENTILE: What’s under that?

TIM HOGAN: No, below that. Yeah. There are some storage areas. There are no lizard people down there.

AJ GENTILE: Oh.

TIM HOGAN: There was always speculation that there was some entrance to the underworld down there. It’s not really — I mean, the whole reason why that property was even selected was it was a deal made between the Denver mayor and Federico Peña, who Peña Boulevard that goes to the airport is named after. And it was kind of a money-making scheme for the politicians at the time. They do that.

AJ GENTILE: So no bunkers?

TIM HOGAN: Well, there are rumors — and I unofficially —

AJ GENTILE: We’re off the record, right?

TIM HOGAN: Off the record, there are rumors that there are bunkers down there for the president and other people, should there be a calamity on the east coast and they need to get out of that area. That’s an area they can go to, be hidden, and continue to still operate.

AJ GENTILE: We do know that there was a potential impact event years ago and Obama was sent to that airport.

TIM HOGAN: That’s right. And about less than three miles from the airport is the Space Force Base — Buckley Space Force Base — which is almost on the property. In fact, the road that divides the two properties is the Stephen D. Hogan Parkway, which is also named after my dad. And then there’s also a housing community on the Denver Airport property called the Highlands, and it’s all dedicated to my dad too. There’s a plot there. He was very involved in all that development.

AJ GENTILE: He seemed like a great man. And I watched your eulogy of him online. It was really touching.

TIM HOGAN: Thank you.

The Secret History of the Templars

AJ GENTILE: Did you learn all the secret history of the Templars when you were initiated? Is that kind of how it works?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, well, I learned the general history of the Templars as I was growing up. That was part of my education. But then, as I got involved in stuff, I started learning more of the secret history that was involved there. And I’ve tried to bring some of that forward and make it public — a lot of things that just nobody’s known about.

You know, like you look up Rosicrucian, for example, you’re going to hear the same general story of, “Oh, it was established in Germany,” but it doesn’t really — and they talk about Johann Valentin Andreae, but they don’t really talk about what Johann Valentin Andreae was involved in. He grew up in the town of Calw — spelled C-A-L-W — in Germany, and his mom was the town alchemist there. And that was a Templar area. It was an underground Templar area. And that’s where this Militia Crucifera Evangelica was largely based out of.

In fact, to this day, there are secret chapels there that have the blazons — the coat of arms — of all the original members of that tradition. And they have Andreae’s coat of arms there in stained glass. There’s a whole tradition there that most people have no clue about.

AJ GENTILE: Well, where did the Templars really start? And what was their original mission?

The Templars, Atlantis, and the Ancient Cataclysm

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So according to — and this isn’t something I’m just making up, by the way. I’m popularizing it, I’m getting this information out there now, but it’s something that’s been known within the Templar traditions for a long time.

The Grand Master before me, Raymond Bernard, was a very famous historian and esotericist in Paris. And he published a book on this called The Secret Meeting in Rome, which was about his initiation into the Templar Order back in 1956. And in it, he talks about the real purpose for the Templar Order.

The Templar Order quickly realized very early on that there were these flood myths all around the world, and everyone had the same flood myth, alluding to the fact that there was probably a very real cataclysm in antiquity.

AJ GENTILE: We’re getting to the point where it’s almost non-negotiable, right?

TIM HOGAN: Right now. But back then, it was just kind of considered biblical history.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: And so the Templars thought there was something to it, and they also believed that there was a very advanced civilization that had existed prior to this cataclysm.

AJ GENTILE: When you say advanced, do you mean advanced for their time or for ours?

TIM HOGAN: Both.

AJ GENTILE: So technology we would find advanced. Right. Okay.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So much so that even later on, when Francis Bacon wrote his book The New Atlantis —

AJ GENTILE: Oh yes.

TIM HOGAN: So Francis Bacon was the secret son of Queen Elizabeth I. He was hidden at birth. He was given to Lady Anne Bacon, who was Queen Elizabeth’s lady-in-waiting. And he was raised by Lord Nicholas Bacon and Lady Anne Bacon. But Francis Bacon and Queen Elizabeth I were members of this Militia Crucifera Evangelica. She was a Templar.

AJ GENTILE: And that’s something interesting, where people think that Knights Templar are just guys on horses, right?

TIM HOGAN: No, no, they were women all the way back to the beginning.

AJ GENTILE: And farmers and blacksmiths and masons.

The Templar Mission and New Atlantis

TIM HOGAN: Right, exactly. It wasn’t just knights on horseback, it was clerics. It was an entire — it was the first multinational corporation, really. And it had men and women involved in it in different capacities. Even after the suppression, as the Templar order continued to exist secretly underground, there were some very high-level people, like Queen Elizabeth the First, that were involved in it. Francis Bacon had also been involved in it. So when he wrote his New Atlantis, the whole basis of the book was that there was this secret underground Templar body that referred to itself as the College of Solomon.

AJ GENTILE: Yes.

TIM HOGAN: The head of the College of Solomon is wearing a turban with a red Templar cross on it. And they have developed all these technologies, or they’re trying to develop all these technologies. And the story goes that there was this ship — it’s kind of like the story of Lost, actually, if you ever watched that TV show, the first season. So there’s this ship that crashes on the island and nobody knows about this island. It’s like this hidden island, and when the people get off the ship, they find there is this civilization on this island, and they are totally spiritually and materially way more advanced than the rest of the world.

The people of the island explained to themselves, “We are the College of Solomon. We develop these technologies and we know about the whole world, but the whole world does not know about us.” And they say to them, “Where did you learn of these technologies?” And they said, “Well, it’s like this. We settled on this island and then one day we saw this light hovering over the ocean, and it was in the shape of a cross. So we rode our boats out to it and there was like this force field that wouldn’t let us get any closer to it. And then it spit this book out to us. So we brought this book back to land and it was a blueprint for how to create all these technologies. We’ve been just trying to develop them ever since.”

So this is clearly describing a UFO event. But all the technologies were believed to be technologies from the original Atlantis. It described things like submarines and flying machines — things that didn’t exist back in Francis Bacon’s day. But it was believed these were the things that the original Atlantis had, and that it was the Templar mission to redevelop these things and to re-establish a country where they could be developed. And that’s really what led to the creation of the United States — to become this new Atlantis where these technologies could be developed.

AJ GENTILE: How does Francis Bacon’s story track with Plato’s description of Atlantis?

TIM HOGAN: It’s pretty different, because he’s clearly sourcing back to Plato.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: But then he’s also talking about all kinds of things that Plato doesn’t talk about. He talks about medicines that need to be developed, along with the technologies, and he just says it needs to be re-established — the new Atlantis needs to be established.

AJ GENTILE: And does that become a Templar mission?

TIM HOGAN: That becomes the Templar mission. Yeah. And then ultimately, the Royal Society was established in England to try to create these ideas of Francis Bacon. And then that was brought over into the establishment of the United States, which then became the main new Atlantis model to develop these things and perpetuate them.

Excavations Beneath the Temple Mount

AJ GENTILE: So when the Templars end up in Jerusalem, they are — I believe — granted permission to set up their headquarters.

TIM HOGAN: Correct.

AJ GENTILE: Under the — under the dome.

TIM HOGAN: Right. So this is the secret history.

AJ GENTILE: Yes.

TIM HOGAN: So while they’re supposed to be protecting pilgrims, what they are really doing is digging — they are doing archaeological excavation under the Temple Mount. And they are going into East Jerusalem and they are opening up tombs and finding artifacts, and they are bringing this stuff secretly back to Europe.

They are also going into places like Egypt, where they set up their grand commandery at the Temple of Isis at Philae. And from there, they’re going into places like the Temple of Hathor at Dendera and Hatshepsut’s temple in the Valley of the Kings and in Karnak. And they leave these Templar markers at all these places, and they leave Templar graffiti at all these places as well. And they are finding artifacts, including arks — like the Ark of the Covenant.

AJ GENTILE: You said arks.

TIM HOGAN: Arks. Plural. Yeah. So they found six arks, but there were probably a hundred arks in antiquity. Every temple in Egypt had one of these arks. And you can see it on the temple walls when you know what to look for.

AJ GENTILE: So if there were 100 arks on Earth, then how the arks are described in the Bible is incorrect?

The Arks as Electrostatic Capacitors

TIM HOGAN: Well, what they were is electrostatic capacitors. And they would be set up at certain node points around the planet, and then the electricity would build up and it would just broadcast within the region.

AJ GENTILE: And let me set up for those listening — if you take acacia wood and put gold on either side of it, you create a dielectric, which does transfer electricity.

TIM HOGAN: That’s exactly right. And then the other thing they put in the arks was what was referred to as manna, which was really just gold converted into a monoatomic state. And what makes it superconductive? So you put the superconductive substance inside this, and it’s going to produce a tremendous amount of electricity.

AJ GENTILE: But monoatomic gold can only do that with some alchemical —

TIM HOGAN: Correct.

AJ GENTILE: Right. Because scientists can’t do this.

TIM HOGAN: Correct.

AJ GENTILE: But somebody could.

TIM HOGAN: Yes. So the Templars figured out how to do this. And it is weird science, because when you take gold and you convert it into that state, the first thing that happens is you break it down and break it down, but you still have gold. But at a certain point, the gold just disappears.

AJ GENTILE: Well, the lattice structure — the molecules fall away and you’re left with single atoms.

TIM HOGAN: Well, even before that, it literally disappears into a higher dimension.

AJ GENTILE: What?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: And then when you create the conditions for it to come back, it enters in this monoatomic state where every grain of this gold is one atom thick. The two electrons of the outer valence ring both enter into what’s called a spin forward. And when that happens, it enters into a high spin state. So the nucleus completely captures the outer valence ring, so it doesn’t bind with anything.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: And when it does this, it generates a tremendous amount of electricity, and it becomes superconductive.

Monoatomic Gold, Manna, and the Anunnaki

AJ GENTILE: And there are some parts of the Anunnaki legend that say they were here for monoatomic gold.

TIM HOGAN: Right. Yeah, they were mining gold. I think this is why we see modern UAPs in the ocean — I think that’s what they’re doing. Because this gold, it can also be made deep in the earth and pushed up volcanically, and then it gets deposited in the soil or in the bottom of the ocean. If you look at the bottom of the ocean, it’s mostly just white powder down there, which is what this monoatomic gold is. But it can also be pushed up volcanically and then plants absorb it. So the other way you can capture it is you could calcinate down a bush — burn it down — and you can extract the monoatomic gold out of the ashes.

AJ GENTILE: And that’s interesting because calcination would be one of the steps of alchemy.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. And we also believe, from a Templar perspective, it’s why Moses witnessed God as a burning bush. Because you have to calcinate down the bush to extract the manna — literally out of the ashes — the monoatomic gold.

AJ GENTILE: Do you remember the name of that bush, the scientific name? Because they’re all over Egypt.

TIM HOGAN: Oh, yes — it’s tamarisk. Well, there’s the tamarisk and then there’s the acacia, but they’re all over the area. The thorny tamarisk is what they say was probably the burning bush.

AJ GENTILE: Right. So for the audience — all over Egypt, there are these perennials that have highly volatile oils that are flammable. When the conditions are correct in the desert, they catch fire.

TIM HOGAN: That’s exactly right. And if you extract the ashes from that, you can extract this monoatomic gold from those ashes. This is also, by the way, why we believe the Hebrew priests at Solomon’s temple were demanding all these burnt sacrifices — because again, you could extract the monatomics, the manna, quote unquote.

And manna, by the way, in Hebrew just means “what is it?” That’s literally what it means — “what is it?” And it’s called that because if you do a spectroscopic analysis or a chemical test with these monatomics, it doesn’t show up as anything.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So it’s like manna — “what is it?” So take us back to the Ark.

AJ GENTILE: The manna is in there, so it’s —

TIM HOGAN: It’s placed in the Ark. Even the Bible says that there was a pot of manna placed in the Ark.

AJ GENTILE: And manna was provided throughout the entire Exodus.

The Ark, the Pharaohs, and Phase-Shifting UAPs

TIM HOGAN: Correct. Yeah. Well, Moses also burned the golden calf into this white powder. And for centuries scientists said, “Oh, see, this is just proof the Bible is ridiculous, because everyone knows gold melts — it doesn’t turn into a powder.” But actually, if you do this alchemical process to it, it does turn into a powder.

And you can see this in ancient Egypt on all the temples — wherever you see an ark, you will also see the pharaoh with his hand out with this mound-shaped cone on his hand. That cone mound is the manna. It is the manna bread. Actually, when you form the manna in the vessel — when the gold phase shifts into this other dimension and when you bring it back in the vessel — it forms that exact mound shape. And so that’s why they’re depicting it that way.

The pharaoh would eat that, and it had incredible health benefits in terms of curing cancer and everything else. But it was also put inside those arks and it would produce this tremendous amount of power. And I’m certain that’s why these phase-shifting UAPs — these UAPs that are phase-shifting the same way that the gold does when you do this alchemical process to it — that’s what they’re doing. They’re mining this stuff, because it allows them to use it. And by the way, the Hebrew tradition referred to this substance as manna.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: And if you read texts like the Kebra Nagast, which is the Ethiopian text that talks about King Solomon’s flying craft —

AJ GENTILE: And Menelik. Yes, right.

TIM HOGAN: King Solomon’s flying craft was said to be powered by this manna.

AJ GENTILE: Right, but wait — there’s more.

Manna Across Ancient Civilizations

TIM HOGAN: But wait, there’s more. In the ancient Vedic texts, they talk about flying craft referred to as vimana. In the Sumerian texts, they talk about the Anunnaki — these gods having flying craft — and the flying craft are referred to as shimana. And the Polynesian cultures that talk about how the Easter Island statues were moved — it was with a substance referred to as manna. And in Tibetan traditions, the White Stone of Enlightenment was referred to as mani. It’s all the same stuff, and you find it universal.

And the other unique thing that happens with this manna — when you subject it to a weak electrostatic or electromagnetic field, it causes the vessel containing it to start to weigh less than nothing. This is really how a couple of people with rods could carry the Ark of the Covenant, which would have weighed several tons with all that gold and acacia wood.

AJ GENTILE: And maybe it is a coincidence — or maybe not — but the priests that carried the Ark were the Levites.

TIM HOGAN: Right.

AJ GENTILE: It sounds a lot like levitation.

TIM HOGAN: Levitation. Right, exactly. Not that the word “levitation” is a Hebrew word, but I mean — you tell me where the word levitation comes from.

AJ GENTILE: It is just interesting.

TIM HOGAN: There are a lot of root words to things that we normally don’t think of as being associated with certain cultures. For example, the word “ignite.”

AJ GENTILE: Right, right.

TIM HOGAN: Comes from “ignis.”

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: The Greek “ignis,” which meant fire. You know where that comes from?

AJ GENTILE: No.

TIM HOGAN: It comes from the Sanskrit “agni,” which meant fire.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: So “agni” became “ignai,” which is where we get “ignite.” But most people would never trace it that far. They take it back to the Greek, but they wouldn’t realize it actually comes from the Sanskrit. So there are words all the time that get incorporated into words we use in English. Or the word “on,” for example. When you turn on a light switch, “on” was the ancient Egyptian word for light. So you are literally “turning on” the light.

There are lots of words like that that we have inherited and do not really remember the origins of. And scholars are quick to point them back to the Roman or the Latin or the Greek. But the Greeks and the Romans — they got those from other cultures.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: So, I mean, it’s —

AJ GENTILE: Yeah. You can see a lot of Polynesian cultures have words with Greek roots, but there’s an argument to be made that it’s kind of the other way around.

TIM HOGAN: Of course. Yeah, 100%.

The Ark of the Covenant: A Templar Perspective

AJ GENTILE: So, to the Ark. What did the Israelites think they had? What were they doing with this?

TIM HOGAN: Well, from a Templar perspective —

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: We’re quite certain that the whole Moses story really goes back to the history associated with the pharaoh Akhenaten. Akhenaten was the first pharaoh to proclaim monotheism in history. He said all the gods of Egypt were actually a part of one God that was known as the Aten, or “my Aten,” which in ancient Egyptian was “Atonai.”

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: When Akhenaten got deposed — because the Amun priesthood rose up and said, “We’re not going to do this one God thing anymore” —

AJ GENTILE: Right. Because of Tutankhamun and the others.

TIM HOGAN: Right. So they had to go underground. Akhenaten had a brother whose name was Thutmose. And when Akhenaten was deposed, Thutmose is the one who took all the Atenist followers out of Egypt. He took them up into Phoenicia, and they literally became the Canaanites and became the early Hebrews. Words like “atenai” became “adonai,” which meant “lord” in Hebrew.

But the ark associated with the Hebrew tradition was really one of these arks that existed in Egypt — one that was literally used to generate power. And according to the ancient Egyptian account, these were technologies that had come from Utlant.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: Which was their name for what we now call Atlantis. It’s depicted at Edfu, at the Temple of Horus. There are what are called the Building Texts on the wall there, and they show the gods — the Neteru — coming over in boats from the primordial mound that had drowned in the ocean, as they came to Egypt to settle. They also show these arks on the boats being brought over.

So anytime you see an ark in Egypt, it is always depicted on a boat. And that is because it was technology that was brought over from Utlant.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: And deposited in these temples, which were then used as power stations.

The Ark as an Electrical Capacitor

AJ GENTILE: I mean, there’s even that story in the Bible about Uzzah, who goes to steady the Ark and is electrocuted.

TIM HOGAN: Literally — yeah, it kills him.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: He’s shocked to death. And that connects to something else. The pharaohs are always depicted with rods next to the ark, because those were grounding rods. You could literally put the rod in the ground, drop it against the ark, and ground the electricity so you could then open it.

In the Torah and the Old Testament, these were Aaron’s rods. That’s what Aaron’s rod was used for — the same thing. It was a grounding rod. You put it in the ground, drop it against the ark, discharge the electricity, and then you could handle the ark.

But if you didn’t do that, the ark would start to build up static electricity over several hours or several days, and then it would discharge through the winged figures on top — the cherubim.

And if you remember in the story of Moses, he sets up a tabernacle in the wilderness with wool curtains.

AJ GENTILE: Right, right.

TIM HOGAN: And wool is also a static generator.

AJ GENTILE: That’s right.

TIM HOGAN: So it helped to build up that static, which would then be collected in the ark as a capacitor and then discharged.

AJ GENTILE: That’s true. When they would send priests into the tabernacle, they would tie a rope around their legs.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. If they got killed, they could pull them out without getting electrocuted too. So the Templar Order — they found six of these arks.

AJ GENTILE: Where did they find these?

TIM HOGAN: In between Jerusalem and Egypt.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: And most of them were found in Egypt, in fact — at the Temple of Seti the First at Abydos.

AJ GENTILE: Yeah.

TIM HOGAN: There’s a secret chamber there. It’s called the Umm Seti room now. It’s closed to the public, but we lead tours in Egypt and we have access to this chamber. What it has depicted on the temple wall is Seti the First holding the manna bread in his hand next to an ark. Then it shows another ark on a boat undergoing transportation.

But right next to the ark beside him, there are also three red Templar crosses that were painted by the Order back in the late 1100s. That’s where they found the first ark — in that room. And that’s one of the arks they secured that we still have to this day.

The Arks as Ancient Technology

AJ GENTILE: So let’s take a quick break, and I want to come back and talk about the arks that you found. And I’d like to get into a little bit of ancient Egypt and how they could have worked as technology.

TIM HOGAN: Absolutely. Sure.

AJ GENTILE: So the Hebrews had the arks. They probably didn’t know what they were.

TIM HOGAN: You’re correct. Yeah. They had an ark, for sure.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: They quickly learned that it could be deadly.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: And it would probably build up this power. Interestingly, if you look around the world — you’ll see this all over Egypt, but also in other places like Cambodia and Peru — there are what are known as butterfly clamps, which fit stones together. The same-looking clamp appears across these sites.

We believe those weren’t actually meant to hold the stones together. Because if you wanted to hold stones together, the clamp would be thicker in the center and smaller on the sides. But in these cases, it’s thicker on the sides and thinner in the center. And we know it was metal that was put in there.

So the purpose wasn’t really to hold the stones together. They created a zipper effect around the temples. They were like receivers for these arks. As the energy was broadcast, it would be picked up by this metal zipper running around the temples, and then they could just plug into that. We think that is what they were really used for.

AJ GENTILE: And you think there were about a hundred of them?

TIM HOGAN: Oh yeah, at least — around the world. Maybe even more. I mean, even to this day in Japan, in the Shinto tradition, they have these arks that they bring out of their temples once a year and parade around the town. And they look exactly like the Ark of the Covenant.

AJ GENTILE: I didn’t know that.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. It comes from the early Japanese tradition of having these arks. So it was an international phenomenon that I think goes back to the technology of Atlantis. When that civilization collapsed, certain ones were preserved. And then later, people made symbolic replicas of them. You see this a lot in Ethiopia. To this day they call them tabot boxes, but they —

AJ GENTILE: Do you believe that the ark allegedly in Axum, Ethiopia —

TIM HOGAN: I think it is real.

AJ GENTILE: You think it is real?

TIM HOGAN: Yes, I think it is one of the real ones.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: I have no reason to doubt it, actually. That whole Ethiopian tradition is very old.

AJ GENTILE: The Kebra Nagast talks about the ark coming there, correct?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. And also, one of the earliest Jewish temples in Egypt was actually on Elephantine Island. I’ve been into the ruins. That area is closed to the public, but I’ve been in there.

AJ GENTILE: How do you get access to all these places? By the way, Tim does tours that I am definitely going to take. How do you get access to these places?

TIM HOGAN: Because the Order has been there for the last thousand years doing research. So they give us access because we’ve always been respectful. They allow us to do our initiation ceremonies in the Great Pyramid still — it’s not a problem.

The Great Pyramid, Stargates, and the Pharaohs

AJ GENTILE: Does the Great Pyramid have anything to do with the arks?

TIM HOGAN: Some believe that the so-called sarcophagus — the box in the King’s Chamber — was originally designed to hold an ark.

AJ GENTILE: It would fit better than a body, right.

TIM HOGAN: Others believe there is something else going on. At all these temples where you find these arks, there are also references to stargates — this is in the hieroglyphs on the temple walls. They talk about stargates and that these arks were being used to provide the energy for them. The pharaoh would go through these stargates and meet with the Neteru — the gods — who would instruct him. He would then come back and pass that knowledge on to the rest of Egypt.

There were only about seven pharaohs considered masters of the stargates. Hatshepsut was one. Her son Thutmose III was one. Even Akhenaten, who was the great-grandson of Thutmose III, was also listed as a master of the stargate.

AJ GENTILE: I have an episode coming out at some point that’s going to be controversial — it alleges that Akhenaten might have been Moses.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, we think it was his brother Thutmose who became Moses.

AJ GENTILE: Yep.

TIM HOGAN: Right.

AJ GENTILE: And Thutmose II — his remains were just found a couple of weeks ago.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. Yeah. So there is some evidence that this idea of the Aten — the one God that Akhenaten talked about — was actually known by the pharaohs going back to Thutmose III, at least. It was knowledge that was secret amongst the pharaohs: that all the gods were aspects of one God. It was only Akhenaten who then made that idea public. And that was where his real heresy was.

AJ GENTILE: I mean, he moved the capital, right — from Cairo.

TIM HOGAN: Right. He set up Tel Amarna. And of course, Nefertiti was his wife. The real kicker there is that there are busts of Nefertiti — that headdress she is wearing is actually a Mayan headdress. And on Elephantine Island, there is a secret Thutmose III temple that shows Mayans trading beads with Egyptians.

AJ GENTILE: Again, this is consistent with the legend that after the Great Flood, survivors from the Yucatan went one way and survivors from Egypt went another.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. We think what happened was — the Mayans referred to “Attolan,” which was the homeland. The Egyptian temple walls talk about “Utlant,” which is the same place. And what the Egyptians later did — so the Egyptians inherited all this material. They didn’t even know what most of it was.

AJ GENTILE: They found it.

The Serapeum and Ancient Advanced Civilization

TIM HOGAN: They found it. I mean, when they found the Serapeum, for example, where there were these giant granite boxes that weigh 700 tons and are so perfectly and precisely made. The Egyptians couldn’t have made that. They had copper tools.

AJ GENTILE: Right. And I’ve seen those right angles measured with lasers.

TIM HOGAN: Right. And they’re precise.

AJ GENTILE: Yes.

TIM HOGAN: No one knows really what the boxes were for. According to early accounts, the only thing that was found in them was a white powder.

AJ GENTILE: Right, right.

TIM HOGAN: So it was probably this monoatomic gold, and it was probably a survival bunker to preserve this stuff from the cataclysm. So when the Egyptians later found it, they were totally freaked out — we know they were — because they started sacrificing bulls there. They started eating the dirt out of the temple walls because they thought it might have magical properties.

I mean, these were not the technologically advanced people who made those boxes. These were the later people who found them clearly and were trying to process it. But we also know that the Egyptians wanted to find the original homeland of the builders and of this tradition. So they probably sailed in boats over to the Yucatan and met with the Mayans who had the same tradition.

We do not know how much they associated with them. But we do know, like in the Valley of the Queens, for example, there’s a tomb dedicated to a Queen Maya, and there’s Mayan artwork in the tomb. So there had to have been some cross-pollination going on. And it may be that Nefertiti herself was a Mayan princess. She was said to have come from a foreign land. And that was Akhenaten’s wife.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: And then King Tutankhamun was their son. His original name was Tutankh Aten, after the Aten. In fact, his throne says Tutankh Aten on it. But he had to change it to Amun because the Amun priesthood took over at some point.

The Pyramid as a Power Plant

AJ GENTILE: So we’ve got the arks transmitting energy. I subscribe to the pyramid power plant theory.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. If you were to put one of those arks in there and turn it on — even without adding chemicals and everything else to create that energy, as is the theory, even beyond all that — the granite in there is piezoelectric.

AJ GENTILE: That’s the rose granite.

TIM HOGAN: Right, the rose granite. So pressure put on it produces electricity. It’s in the middle of the desert. The pyramid itself is a giant electrostatic capacitor. If you stand on top of the pyramid and you take a bottle with a wet rag on it and hold it up, sparks are going to be shooting off the top of it just because it’s already building up static electricity. But then if you put an ark in the center of it with this monoatomic substance, the superconductive substance is going to really generate a lot of power.

AJ GENTILE: And you throw a gold capstone on top.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, of course, it’s just going to transmit it throughout the region. And really, I think there are some theories that Nikola Tesla, when he was developing his Wardenclyffe Tower and all of his research he was doing in Colorado Springs, Colorado, he was trying to mimic this process.

AJ GENTILE: Sure. I mean, he built Wardenclyffe on top of an aquifer. Just like Giza, right?

TIM HOGAN: Just like Giza. Yep.

AJ GENTILE: Here’s where I get tripped up — I can buy into the fact that there’s electricity flowing around the ancient world. But what were they powering?

TIM HOGAN: They were powering the same things we power today. I think by some accounts, the Earth was as populated and as advanced as it is today.

AJ GENTILE: That’s a big claim.

Evidence of an Ancient Advanced Civilization

TIM HOGAN: It’s a huge claim. I’m willing to make it because there is evidence for that. There’s even evidence of nuclear detonations in the ancient world at places like Mohenjo-daro and Harappa, even on Easter Island. And by the way, this is something you never hear about. In Mohenjo-daro and Harappa in India, there was a script that was found. The only other place we find that exact same script is on Easter Island, which is on the exact opposite side of the globe.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So there was clearly a worldwide advanced civilization that was going on. Harry Truman — who, by the way, was a past Grand Master of Missouri for Freemasonry, a 33rd degree Freemason, and a Templar — when he wrote in his diary entry about the discovery of the atomic bomb, he says, “We have discovered an ancient weapon.”

AJ GENTILE: I did not know he said that.

TIM HOGAN: Yes, those were his exact words. “We have discovered an ancient weapon.”

AJ GENTILE: And these texts you are talking about, they do talk about a sky filled with fire.

TIM HOGAN: Absolutely. Oppenheimer was a Sanskrit scholar. That’s why when he said, “I’ve become death, the destroyer of worlds,” that is directly from the Mahabharata.

AJ GENTILE: Yes.

TIM HOGAN: And books like the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, they talk about atomic detonations. It says, “Gurkha, flying his powerful vimana, hurled a single projectile with all the power of the universe. It was an unknown weapon, an Iron Thunderbolt, which reduced to ashes the entire race of the Vrishnis and Andhakas. Pottery broke without apparent cause. Elephants burst into flame and ran madly. The birds croaked madly. After a few days, it passed over. All foodstuff became infected. Hair and nails began to fall out.”

AJ GENTILE: Sounds like radiation poisoning.

TIM HOGAN: Radiation poisoning. “The soldiers threw themselves in the streams to wash themselves and their equipment. Clouds roared upward, showering gravel.” I mean, these were all the descriptions of this weapon. And by the way, the vimanas were these flying craft. So these are in ancient texts. These were things that the Nazis were studying, that the Ahnenerbe were studying, to try to develop this when they were developing their V2 program.

AJ GENTILE: Von Braun.

TIM HOGAN: Von Braun, yeah. Wernher von Braun. Sorry — not Oppenheimer, Wernher von Braun. He was in charge of the V2 program. He was brought over to develop Saturn V for NASA.

The Valley of the Kings as Survival Bunkers

TIM HOGAN: But again, we’re talking about ancient technology. And there is plenty of evidence of this around the ancient world, and it is mentioned in the ancient texts. So I think the world was a lot more advanced than anyone is willing to talk about. I think there was this mass cataclysm. Just like today, most of the major cities were on the coasts. As sea levels rose 300 feet, it just erased everything. And then all that was left over were the myths and some areas of survival.

One of the things that we point out when we go to Egypt — we do the tours in Egypt — and this is not a well-known or popular theory, but we believe that the Valley of the Kings, for example, was originally survival bunkers. Most people think of them as just these tombs built into the cliff sides. But what they do not realize is that all those tombs are connected by tunnels that go deep down into the earth where they are all connected.

It would have taken thousands of people to carve out all these tunnels. And if you were a pharaoh trying to find a place to be buried, you’re certainly not going to hire thousands of workers to create a bunch of tunnels so that you could be buried down there. The secret would have gotten out right away.

So we believe, from a Templar perspective, that the pharaohs wanted to be buried at the place where their ancestors originally came out after the cataclysm. And the other thing that these pharaohs did is, in their tombs, they tried to preserve the knowledge of that civilization prior to the cataclysm. We show, for example, in certain tombs where there are these tall men with red beards that have baby woolly mammoths and giant sloths on leashes, like —

AJ GENTILE: Pre-Ice Age animals.

TIM HOGAN: Pre-Ice Age animals that the Egyptians shouldn’t even know about. And there they are, carved in the tomb, being preserved by the pharaoh. Why would he want to preserve that in his tomb in that area?

AJ GENTILE: Is that public, or is that something that you’ve seen?

TIM HOGAN: It’s something I’ve seen. I can show the photos of it, but that’s one of the things we show when we go on these tours, so people can see it.

AJ GENTILE: Your tour will go in there.

TIM HOGAN: Oh, yeah.

AJ GENTILE: We show it because the Valley of the Kings tunnel network theory — that’s disputed. But have you seen that network?

TIM HOGAN: Oh, yeah. When you go into the entrance of the Valley of the Kings, they actually have a model of it for the public to see.

AJ GENTILE: Oh, my goodness.

TIM HOGAN: It looks like a giant ant farm underneath there. And some of them go down two, three hundred feet. Why did they even have these tunnels for their tombs? It doesn’t make any sense — unless you understand that those were survival bunkers.

AJ GENTILE: It makes me think of the underground city Derinkuyu in Turkey.

TIM HOGAN: Same type of deal. Exactly. Yep.

The Rosicrucians, the Rose Cross, and the Rosstau

TIM HOGAN: And this is another Templar-related thing — one of the things that the Order also discovered when it first went to Egypt is that there were these massive tunnel networks that existed between Giza and Saqqara. Saqqara is where the Step Pyramid of Zoser is. Saqqara is actually where we get the word “sacred” from.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: There are tunnels that stretch that whole way. Large tunnels. That underground area, in the ancient Egyptian language, was known as Rosstau, which meant “underworld.” When the Templars discovered this, they brought that knowledge back with them and transliterated the Egyptian Rosstau into the Latin language they were familiar with. So “Ros” became “Rose” and “Tau” became “Cross.”

AJ GENTILE: Oh, my goodness.

TIM HOGAN: So they adopted the symbol of the Rose Cross to talk about the secret underground area of Egypt. And then when they went and set up the cathedrals of Europe, they were bringing back this Egyptian knowledge and trying to set up the cathedrals in the same manner as the Egyptian temples.

They put their alchemical knowledge into them — you could go to Notre Dame Cathedral, and the front doors have all the stages of alchemy depicted, which nobody knew at that time except for groups like the Sabians and the Druze in the Middle East. So it’s very clear the Templars were associated with them and bringing this knowledge back.

They set up the cathedrals so that if you view them from the sky, they’re crosses. But then they put the rose windows in them to make them Rose Crosses — Rosstau — that knowledge from Egypt, from the underworld of Egypt.

AJ GENTILE: So the Rosicrucians are the followers of —

TIM HOGAN: Correct, yeah. So when the Templar Order created the Rosicrucian Order in Germany, that symbol, the Rose Cross, was really just pointing back to the Rosstau, the underworld of Egypt.

This is also why they brought over and placed the Black Madonnas in the crypts of the cathedrals. This was hearkening back to the Temple of Isis, where they had their grand commandery in Egypt, where they had the granite or basalt statues of Isis with the young child Horus on her lap. That was black basalt in ancient Egypt. So they just recreated that image, painted it black, and put it in the crypts of the cathedrals where they held their secret initiation ceremonies. It was to hearken back to that origin in Egypt.

Baphomet and the God Amun

TIM HOGAN: There were a lot of things like that. Another example is the Baphomet, right? They were accused of worshiping this ram-headed figure. Well, what that ram-headed figure was is actually the God Amun of ancient Egypt — which is where we get the word “amen” from. It was a ram because it was created during the Age of Aries. All that Egyptian stuff was largely created during the Age of Aries. Judaism came out of that Age of Aries, which is why they use all this shepherd metaphor. And you’ll see the rabbi with their locks that are made to look like lamb ears.

But the word “Baphomet” actually comes from ancient Egyptian. “Ba” meant soul, “Fa” meant from, and “Maat” meant universal order. So it was literally “the soul from the universal order” — that was Baphomet. But it was a figure of the God Amun, and he was a ram, because what sound does a ram make? “Ba. Ba.”

The Sphinx, the Ages, and Sacred Artifacts

AJ GENTILE: Oh, yeah.

TIM HOGAN: Which means soul. And you will see this too. If you go to Karnak, for example, there’s a row of sphinxes. As you’re going into Karnak, you will see all these ram-headed sphinxes because the ram was Amun, but they have ram heads with lion bodies. The reason for this is the lion represented the age of Leo, where the Egyptian civilization came out of.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: But then the temple was being created during the age of Aries, which was the ram. So that’s what they were saying. They were saying, “Look, we’re creating this temple now during the age of Aries.”

AJ GENTILE: How far back would that take us?

TIM HOGAN: Well, the age of Leo was during the Younger Dryas cataclysm.

AJ GENTILE: Of course.

TIM HOGAN: And that’s when the Sphinx was built. During that time, facing Leo on the horizon. So it was saying, “Look, our foundations that we came out of was during the age of Leo, during the Younger Dryas cataclysm. We are now practicing under the age of Aries.” That’s why the god Amun is depicted as a ram. And the ram, of course, says “Ba,” which is the soul.

The Templar Artifacts and the Six Arks

AJ GENTILE: Let’s talk a little bit about the controversial stuff regarding religious artifacts.

TIM HOGAN: Sure, absolutely.

AJ GENTILE: I’ve been following you for a long time. I don’t think you can get away from these anymore.

TIM HOGAN: No, let’s do it.

AJ GENTILE: I don’t know — do you want to? I might be more comfortable with you telling what you found than me putting words in your mouth.

TIM HOGAN: Absolutely. So the Templar Order found a number of artifacts as they were digging in Jerusalem and in Egypt. They found these arks that we talked about — six arks in particular. Six arks that they captured, brought back up through Lebanon for a while, and then into France, Portugal, and Scotland. From there, they brought them over to the New World. They were traveling over to the Americas. In fact, by the time the order was suppressed in 1314, they had already mapped all of North America.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: They were trading with the Mayans. If you go to Rosslyn Chapel, which was completed by 1420 —

AJ GENTILE: Yeah, I do want to talk about that.

TIM HOGAN: There’s a stained glass window that has American corn and aloe cactus depicted on it. But it also has Mayan pyramids.

AJ GENTILE: I did not see those.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, the corn is coming out of these Mayan pyramids, which shouldn’t be there.

AJ GENTILE: No, they shouldn’t.

TIM HOGAN: But they are very clearly Mayan pyramids. It is because the Templars were trading with the Mayans. That is a whole other story. When we do a tour down into Mexico, we meet with the Mayans. Still to this day, they put the equal-armed cross of the Templars on their altars. We still have the same secret grips and everything.

AJ GENTILE: Well, then we have to get back to that.

TIM HOGAN: That’s a whole other topic. But it is.

Columbus, the Templars, and the New World

AJ GENTILE: We need to sidetrack for just a second, because to support the theory that the Templars were trading with the New World — can you tell the story about Columbus?

TIM HOGAN: Oh, yeah. So Columbus was a freelancer, a bit of a rogue. He caught wind of the fact that there was land on the other side of the Atlantic. To the day he died, he still thought it was India — he didn’t realize it was a different culture. He figured this out, and then he pulled the daughter of one of the Templar grand masters out of a convent and married her to try to get Templar maps and knowledge.

Once he was able to get that, he went to the king of Portugal and said, “Fund me to go to the New World. There is land across the ocean, and there are sacred artifacts that were moved there. I’m going to go get them for you.”

Of course, the king of Portugal said, “We do not need you,” because Portugal was actually founded as a Templar state. When the Templars were suppressed, they just changed their name and continued as a seafaring order. Vasco da Gama was a Templar grand master of Portugal. They were already still exploring all over as Templars — they just changed their name to the Knights of Christ. They already knew there was land on the other side. So the king said, “We are not going to help you, Columbus.”

So Columbus went to the enemy of Portugal, which was Spain, and he sold Queen Isabella on the idea: “Not only is there land on the other side, but all these sacred artifacts were brought there, including these arks. I am going to go get them for you.” So she funded him.

And this is the real reason why he put the Templar Cross on his boat — because he knew that the natives would recognize it when he got there. He knew that the Templars were already —

AJ GENTILE: — traveling over there and friendly.

TIM HOGAN: Friendly, yes, already had friendly relations. So it was very easy for him to go in. When the natives saw the Templar Cross, they were like, “Oh, it’s our buddies.” But then Columbus went in and started enslaving them and bringing them back — he was terrible about it.

So that’s the real story behind Columbus. It’s the reason why Columbus and the Spanish who came over afterwards were originally looking for these holy artifacts that the Templars had brought over. They knew the Templars had brought them over. They knew they had associations with the natives, so the artifacts had to be somewhere. And then it just turned into a lust for gold after that.

AJ GENTILE: But the Spanish clearly had an interest in the supernatural elements — going after the Fountain of Youth and the Lost City of Z.

TIM HOGAN: That’s exactly right. But it was all tied into these grail legends that were connected with these artifacts. And the Templars did bring these artifacts — like the arks — over to the New World. They established relations with certain tribes who helped to protect and continue to this day to protect and preserve them. We have a series of vaults that were set up to hide these artifacts.

The Vaults: Washington D.C. and Montana

AJ GENTILE: Now I have to ask you — where are the vaults?

TIM HOGAN: I cannot tell you that.

AJ GENTILE: So, folks, he’s not going to tell us.

TIM HOGAN: But I will say that there were originally seven vaults. There are only two now.

AJ GENTILE: Since you can’t say where they are, can you describe what they look like? Are they guarded? Are they climate controlled? What is a vault like?

TIM HOGAN: It’s just a big underground vault that was originally covered over with cement made of crushed lime shells, then dirt, and just buried in specific areas.

AJ GENTILE: Are they guarded, or are they hidden?

TIM HOGAN: I can tell you this much — one of the vaults is in Washington, D.C.

AJ GENTILE: Wow. I have not heard you say that before.

TIM HOGAN: I have never said it before. But it’s in an area that I think most people wouldn’t expect. It’s on national park property.

AJ GENTILE: I might want to slow you down there.

TIM HOGAN: Well, there’s no way for people to get to it. That vault is protected. Even the Park Service doesn’t know it’s there. We have people who watch it and make sure it’s not being broken into, but it’s in an area people wouldn’t expect.

AJ GENTILE: We’re not trusting the American government for security.

TIM HOGAN: No. No way.

The other vault is actually in Montana — an area in Montana which we haven’t mentioned before either. In fact, Lewis and Clark, when they did their excursion, one of the things they were checking on was that vault. When Jefferson sent them up there, checking on that vault was part of their mission.

AJ GENTILE: Jefferson — a Mason?

TIM HOGAN: He was a Templar.

AJ GENTILE: He was a Templar. So he knew.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. There’s some speculation he was also a Mason — that’s debated because there are no records of his initiation. But when he died, a Masonic funeral was held for him. He was known to have attended the Lodge of Nine Muses in France, which he wouldn’t have been allowed to do unless he was a Mason. He had nephews named after him who were all Freemasons, and Masonic codes were found amongst his writings. He would not have known all that unless he was involved. He was a Templar.

Of course, when Lewis and Clark were sent, they were Masons, and they were trading aprons with some of the tribes. Why would that be? Because those connections were already established centuries before. In fact, anytime you encounter a tribe that uses the red equal-armed cross or the Cross of Lorraine — archaeologists say, “Oh, it was their way of depicting a dragonfly.” No, it wasn’t. It was actually a Cross of Lorraine because it was a Templar symbol.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: These were all tribes that had established connections with the Templars already. One of these tribes continues to protect one of the vaults up in Montana. Those connections are still there.

Oak Island and the American Revolution

At one point in time, there used to be seven vaults, one of which was actually on Oak Island. That’s what the whole Oak Island mystery is. But we cleared that out in 1765. This is going to be a disappointment for people who watch the show, but our records say we cleared that out in 1765 in preparation for the American Revolutionary War, because we already knew we were going to have to fight that war to establish the United States as a free state — where these freedoms could be perpetuated.

Benjamin Franklin was actually one of the people in charge of making sure that vault was cleared out. To gain the money and resources, a lot of the gold had to be melted down to fund the revolution.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

The Talpiot Tomb and the Bloodline of Jesus

TIM HOGAN: So there were other artifacts beyond the arks. One of the things that was discovered in East Jerusalem, in the area now referred to as the Talpiot Tomb — there was a tomb discovered that had ossuaries in it. These ossuaries contain the bones of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, John the Baptist, and their children.

I say “their children” because, according to our Templar records, Mary Magdalene was married to John the Baptist prior to Jesus, and they had children. When John the Baptist was killed, Jesus then took on the responsibilities of John the Baptist.

AJ GENTILE: John was the earlier Messiah.

TIM HOGAN: Right, exactly. And Mary was the financier — she was a very rich woman. In fact, her name, Magdalene, comes from “Magdal,” which meant “tower.” She was the woman of this tower. She had a lot of wealth. She was funding John the Baptist, who was meant to be the original Messiah figure. And then when he was killed, Jesus took on that role.

Mary Magdalene and the Gospel of Philip

AJ GENTILE: I want to ask you about that. I want to set this up for those listening, because it is an extraordinary claim. In 1945, the Gospel of Philip was found in ancient Egypt, in which Mary Magdalene is featured very heavily and considered Jesus’ favorite disciple.

TIM HOGAN: Right.

AJ GENTILE: There’s even a passage of them kissing?

TIM HOGAN: Yes — “He used to kiss her on the mouth.” And by the way, when the Templars were doing all that research in Egypt a thousand years ago, they discovered some of these clay jars — the Nag Hammadi scrolls. That site is about five minutes from the Valley of the Kings. It is right next to it. People do not realize it is right there.

AJ GENTILE: I did not know that.

Gnosticism and the Templar Belief System

TIM HOGAN: And so all of that research that the Templars were doing in Luxor, which is just right outside of the Valley of the Kings, and then they were going into these tombs in the Valley of Kings, they were going into that whole area of Najamundi, and they found some of these texts, which is also part of what they brought over to the New World. And it supported their Gnostic belief system that the Templars were secretly practicing at the time.

AJ GENTILE: And Gnosticism is…

TIM HOGAN: So it comes from the word Gnosis, which means “divine revelatory knowledge.” And it was the belief that anybody, through their own efforts, could tap into this universal consciousness that was referred to as the Christos. And so rather than Christ being the last name of Jesus — like, I think many people think “Jesus Christ” is like his last name — when he was speaking as the Christ, he was speaking as this universal consciousness.

AJ GENTILE: It could be argued that he was a Gnostic in this sort of way, 100%.

TIM HOGAN: And not only that, but according to our Templar belief, Mary Magdalene was quite possibly a priestess of the Isis tradition of Egypt. And Mary Magdalene represented what was known as the Sophia, which was wisdom — the goddess of wisdom.

And according to the early Gnostic tradition, Sophia was the bride of the Christ, just like Mary Magdalene was the bride of Jesus. So Jesus represented the Christos, Mary Magdalene represented the Sophia. And their story was really the story of the journey — the spiritual journey of every person who incarnates on this planet, who is a soul who incarnates into matter, who gets lost in it, eventually works their way out of it. They come to marry or unite with the universal consciousness. And that’s where the escape is from this prison planet.

AJ GENTILE: Sure. Or we’re here to learn, have experiences, and bring it back to the Christos.

TIM HOGAN: Exactly, exactly, yep. So that’s Gnosticism in a real nutshell. The Gnostics believe that this planet is a prison planet until you wake up. And then once you wake up, you can choose to incarnate back here to help wake other people up, to help other people escape the cave — from the Plato metaphor — or you could choose to just continue to reincarnate to have experiences, or you could also choose to not reincarnate anymore, to exist in a different realm of light that’s beyond this dimension.

The Talpiot Tomb and the Bones

AJ GENTILE: Well, we have got about 10 minutes left for the next break, and I want to get into Gnosticism, alchemy, and all of that — the Emerald Tablet. But let’s finish up with the bones. The bones — where did you find them? How do we know?

TIM HOGAN: So the Templar Order discovered this tomb clear back during the Crusades that was known as the Talpiot Tomb. And they removed all the bones from these ossuaries and they took them again, same routes. They brought them into Paris and to Scotland and eventually over into the New World. And they put them in these vaults.

And then back in the 1980s, this tomb was rediscovered where they found the boxes — the ossuaries — that had the names on them, but the bones were missing. And it’s because the bones had already been removed clear back during the Middle Ages.

And not only were the bones removed at that time, but the Templars put three skulls in the east, the west, and the south of the tomb as kind of symbolic guardians of the tomb, and they buried it under a rose garden. So it was “under the rose.” That’s really where that term sub rosa comes from.

AJ GENTILE: That was beautiful.

TIM HOGAN: Which was the secret knowledge.

AJ GENTILE: So why not test the bones? Why not release that information?

TIM HOGAN: We haven’t had the technology to do that until recently.

AJ GENTILE: Right. So now we do.

TIM HOGAN: So now we do. The hope is — we’ve been hanging on to these things for centuries now — we’re finally at a point where not only do we have the technology to test them, but we have the technology to reveal them all to the world at once.

AJ GENTILE: How much responsibility and weight do you feel about that?

TIM HOGAN: Quite a bit. But it’s time. We’ve always been wanting to build up to this time where we could have a world community where people have the freedom to explore other ideas. And for the last 40 years, we’ve been trying to get information out there to break down the conditioning, because people have all kinds of cultural conditioning and beliefs.

AJ GENTILE: Well, “Jesus resurrected bodily to heaven.”

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So this interferes with that idea. But again, remember, that’s a conditioning that the church has perpetuated. From a Gnostic standpoint, the Gnostics believed in reincarnation.

AJ GENTILE: True.

TIM HOGAN: So it’s not a problem for the idea that Jesus could have died and could reincarnate.

Reincarnation in the New Testament

AJ GENTILE: I have quite a few people in my audience who are uncomfortable with this story. Can you put them at ease?

TIM HOGAN: Sure, absolutely. Another example of reincarnation in the Bible, beyond the idea of being “born again” — everyone thinks “born again” is the symbolic thing. Well, not necessarily. It could literally mean being born again.

But there’s also passages in the standard Gospel — there’s a great passage where the disciples go to Jesus and they say, “Jesus, the people are saying that the prophet Elias has returned.” And Elias is just the Greek word for Elijah.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So the Hebrew Elijah is the Greek Elias.

AJ GENTILE: Elijah, by the way, also went bodily to heaven.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. But it says people are saying that the prophet Elias — or Elijah — has returned. And Jesus says, “He has, but it’s in a new form that the people don’t fully recognize yet.” And then it says the disciples understood he was talking about John the Baptist. Well, we know who John the Baptist’s parents were. So that means if Elijah is returning as John the Baptist, it has to be that he is reincarnating. So there is an example right there in the New Testament of reincarnation.

AJ GENTILE: I would assume that the Vatican does not like any of this.

TIM HOGAN: No, no, no, no, no. Because the Vatican would rather have you believe you have one life and the only way to get to heaven is through them — which is good business.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: Right. They will also have you believe that it doesn’t matter what sins you commit, but if you believe in Jesus, you do the crime and Jesus will do the time. So you can still get to heaven. Whereas the Gnostics said, “No, you are personally responsible for your own salvation, and your salvation comes from awakening.” And part of that awakening is to your own personal responsibility. So you do the crime, you do the penance to make up for the crime.

On God, the Great Source, and the Gnostic Path

AJ GENTILE: Last question. I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. From what I understand, to be a Mason at the 32nd degree, to be initiated, you need to believe in a higher power.

TIM HOGAN: Correct.

AJ GENTILE: Do you?

TIM HOGAN: Absolutely. 100%. I believe in God, or Source, or Allah, or whatever you want to call it.

AJ GENTILE: The great Source.

TIM HOGAN: The great Source, the origin. And I consider myself a Gnostic. We believe that the supreme God comes from a realm of light that is beyond this matter. But there is a seed of that light within everybody.

And part of what Jesus came back to do was — he was a great exemplar. He was not coming as a savior. He was coming to give the example of how to live and how to bring that light outside of ourselves. And that light, by the way, is within everybody — of all faiths, of all religions. All religions were started through a Gnostic experience, a revelation. That person then became the prophet that started those religions. But they are all telling the same story, and they are all pointing to the same source. And we are all connected by that light.

This is why the Templars believed that freedoms come from God and they come from that source. And this is why they also believed in democracy, because it is inherently within us. So we all have that right to have a say.

AJ GENTILE: So when Jesus was performing miracles…

TIM HOGAN: Yes. And he said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, these miracles you see me perform, ye shall do also — and those even greater than these.” He was being an exemplar. And we all have that potential within us. We all have the potential to heal. We all have the potential to awaken to this higher consciousness.

AJ GENTILE: And that would be sort of my message to anyone who’s uncomfortable with this — Jesus, I think, gave us a great gift with what he’s passed down. And with the Templars continuing that message. Let’s take one last break and then — got to talk about Atlantis. I’m so excited.

TIM HOGAN: Cool. Yeah, let’s do it.

AJ GENTILE: I’ve been following your work for a long time. I’m a fan. Just to tell the audience — when I did my Knights Templar episode, Tim was kind enough to trade a few emails with me and really enlightened me on a lot of things, and I’ve been a fan ever since. This is a very, very kind man. You could believe his claims, you don’t have to believe them — this is a storytelling podcast. I love this story. And one of my favorite stories of all is Atlantis, Anunnaki, and all of that. So watching you contribute with Randall Carlson has been very exciting.

TIM HOGAN: Randall’s great.

Atlantis and the Younger Dryas Cataclysm

AJ GENTILE: So Atlantis — what’s your take on it?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, so definitely from a Templar perspective, we believe that the Templar story is — look, Atlantis was this advanced civilization. It was a worldwide network. There’s some debate about where that center of activity was. Randall certainly believes it was in the Azores. For a long time, the Templar Order believed it was in the Azores. In fact, that’s the whole reason why Portugal is in control of the Azores — because Portugal, again, was founded as a Templar state initially. And so that was all part of that.

AJ GENTILE: I think some of Plato’s writing lines up with that.

TIM HOGAN: It does, it does. And Randall does a great job of showing all that. But when it collapsed, we believe it was right when Plato said it was — which was 9,000 years before him, which was right at the Younger Dryas Cataclysm.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: We know that the ice shelves — there’s three miles of ice that went from the North Pole all the way down to Chicago in North America. You also found this in Europe, and it all melted rapidly.

AJ GENTILE: You believe in the impact theory?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, I do. There are two theories out there. One is that it was a solar flare — Robert Schoch suggests that. The other is that it was more of comet fragments that broke up and hit the ice sheets — Graham Hancock certainly pushes that one.

AJ GENTILE: I’m torn, but I…

TIM HOGAN: It could be both. Yeah, it could be both. I used to work for the space labs up in Boulder, Colorado, and we created a satellite that was called the Advanced Composition Explorer satellite — or the ACE satellite — and it still exists. It sits at what’s known as the L1 point, between where the gravity of the Earth and the gravity of the sun is equal. So it just sits there in space and it looks at the sun 24/7.

AJ GENTILE: Right. The Lagrange points.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. And what it’s looking for is solar flares, so that we have an early warning detection system.

AJ GENTILE: That terrifies me.

TIM HOGAN: Right. Because in all probability, we may have another — what’s the name — there was a Carrington Event back in the 1800s, and it just fried all the telegraph cables.

AJ GENTILE: Set them on fire.

TIM HOGAN: Right. But that was pretty much the extent of it. There wasn’t an infrastructure based on electricity back then. If that same event were to happen today, the government estimates that within two months, 80% of the population will be dead.

AJ GENTILE: No question.

The Younger Dryas, Atlantis, and the Templar Mission

TIM HOGAN: Because everything we depend on — your computers, your phones, your cars, everything. Pumps that pump water and sewage, those will stop working. It’ll be a mess. And it will happen at some point.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: What we found, though, also when I was working there at the space labs, is when we enter into areas where there’s going more cosmic debris that’s hitting the Earth, that same debris is going into the sun, which is also fueling more solar flares.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So it could be both. We could have had these cosmic fragments that were hitting the ice caps, and they were also going into the sun, triggering more solar flares at the same time. So it doesn’t have to be one or the other, it could be both.

But what we do know is, regardless of what was triggering it the most, at the Younger Dryas, it was melting the ice caps rapidly. Sea levels rose 300 feet. This is the reason why, for example, this is what formed the Great Lakes in the United States. It’s what caused the separation of England from the rest of Europe. That English Channel — that’s when that was formed. You can look at the bottom of the English Channel to this day. There’s still the foundations of houses down there because that was all above water.

AJ GENTILE: I didn’t know that.

TIM HOGAN: Oh, yeah. So it just caused mass flooding, mass cataclysm. And if there was a civilization as advanced as we are today, there’s nothing of it that would have survived. If the same thing were to happen today, there’s nothing we’ve created that would have survived 10,000 years from now.

So, from a Templar perspective, what happened was the cataclysm occurred in stages — and we’ll just call them the Atlanteans. They sent out pockets of survival into certain places where they tried to bring their technology and their knowledge.

AJ GENTILE: Did they —

TIM HOGAN: Where it could be preserved.

AJ GENTILE: Did they know that this was coming?

TIM HOGAN: They knew it was coming on some level, and they couldn’t stop it.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: And, according to Plato, they were greedy and whatever else, and so their selfishness and their narcissism led to them fighting with each other, unable to develop what they needed to do to survive it anyways.

AJ GENTILE: But he might have added that.

TIM HOGAN: He might have added that as a political statement.

AJ GENTILE: Yeah, of course.

The Hidden Science Within Ancient Myths

TIM HOGAN: Because there’s always a moral story, but under it is also hidden deeper truths. You find that in the story of Noah.

To give an example — in the story of Noah, the earth is obsessed with its physical senses. Along comes a flood. And then Noah lets birds go into the air to test if there’s land somewhere. Eventually, after 40 days and 40 nights, he lands on Mount Ararat and he makes a burnt sacrifice to God.

Well, these stages correspond to alchemical stages. Earth is associated with physical association. Water was associated with emotions — that was the next stage of alchemical work, associated with digestion. Air was the next stage — Noah lets birds go into the air. And then fire was the last stage, calcination. And “Ararat” is a Sanskrit word that means “illuminated one.”

So contained within this story of this cataclysm was also the secret science of awakening. And that’s what these ancient myths used to do — they used to incorporate both sacred knowledge and history, but in a story that any child could enjoy.

But because there were all these flood myths all over the world, the Templars figured that out pretty quickly. They figured there must be something to this. And so the Templar Order, according to the secret tradition, was secretly founded to go regain the technologies and any lost knowledge that was being preserved from this pre-Diluvian civilization.

AJ GENTILE: Did they find any?

What the Templars Discovered

TIM HOGAN: They did. They found the arks, they found manuscripts, and they found secret knowledge. And more importantly, they found that the initiation rites that they were passing on — which involved, amongst other things, a symbolic death or killing of a candidate and raising them back from the dead — represented not only the person dying to their old self and waking up to their new self, but it also represented that civilization that had collapsed and then needed to be raised again.

There was a secret hand grip that was given during this raising, and they found that this secret initiation ceremony was being preserved in the same manner all over the ancient world. The ancient Egyptians were practicing it, the Mayans were practicing it, the Druze were practicing it.

AJ GENTILE: Even though they’re supposed to have no —

TIM HOGAN: — contact with each other. Even though they’re supposed to have no contact, it was the exact same initiation ceremony and the exact same secret handshake.

AJ GENTILE: Did those ceremonies involve alchemy?

Alchemy: The Science of Atlantis

TIM HOGAN: They did, yeah. Alchemy was another big part of it. Because alchemy was believed to be the science of Atlantis. The colors of Atlantis were black, red, and white — which are the colors of the alchemical process, literally the transformations that go from black to red to white when you’re doing the alchemical work.

AJ GENTILE: What are the colors of the Knights Templar?

TIM HOGAN: Black, red, and white. What are the colors of the flag of Egypt? Black, red, and white. What were the colors of ancient Egypt? Black, red, and white.

AJ GENTILE: Amazing.

TIM HOGAN: It was all the same thing. And it was all in the science of alchemy — which, by the way, comes from the word “alchem,” or “alchemy.” “Kem” or “Kemet” was the ancient name for Egypt. So it was the land of Khem, or the land of Kemet, that was preserving this knowledge. And so alchemy comes from that.

The Templars were figuring this out and passing it on. There were three main stages in the alchemical process.

The first was digestion, where you took whatever you were working on — whether it be a metal or an herb — and you put it in a liquid that would break it down. This was also associated with baptism — it was called baptism by water. After which it would change and turn black. When it did this, it was known as caput mortuum, which means “dead head.”

So let’s talk about John the Baptist for a minute. What did he do? He baptized with water. And then what happened to him? He got his head cut off. Dead head. Caput mortuum. First stage of the alchemical process.

Then the next stage was distillation, where you would heat the liquid and it would turn into steam, and then you could collect that steam and it would have within it the volatile chemicals — whether it be oils from an herb, or oils from a metal that had been broken down by acids. That was the second stage, associated with air, and it was always represented by birds in alchemical texts.

And then the last stage was calcination, or fire, where you burnt the original material down to its ashes and extracted the secret salts out of them — which was the hidden manna, these monoatomics.

AJ GENTILE: Yep.

TIM HOGAN: And then you could combine these processes together to create a new elixir that was more potent than the original thing you started with.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: That’s how all medicines are created, but all metallic transmutations are created this way too. The original thing you were working on was associated with Earth. The digestion was associated with water or liquids. The distillation was associated with air. And then calcination was associated with fire. You started with Earth and then went to liquid, gas, and plasma states, basically. And this was all part of the alchemical process.

Osiris, Noah, and the Alchemical Process

TIM HOGAN: You find this even in the myths of Osiris. In the story, first he’s depicted as green, which represented green vegetation. He is chopped up. He is thrown into the Nile — the water stage. Isis then goes to find him. She turns herself into a bird and starts flying around him — that was distillation, the air stage. And then she lights oil lamps and incense, puts him back together, and raises him to a new form. That’s the alchemical process.

It’s the same with the story of Noah. Earth is obsessed with its physical senses. Along comes a flood — water. He lets go birds — distillation. He lands on Mount Ararat and makes a burnt sacrifice to God — calcination. It’s the same science being depicted in all of these ancient texts. And the people that were passing on these stories were preserving these alchemical sciences.

AJ GENTILE: You said something really interesting — we have white, black, and red. I believe those are the color stages of the philosopher’s stone, correct?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, that’s right. So the philosopher’s stone — you go through those stages. Technically, the entire alchemical process turns black, red, white, and then black, red, white again, and then black, red, white a third time. And basically you’ve purified it these different ways and extracted what you needed at each stage to create the philosopher’s stone. That was the idea behind it.

AJ GENTILE: And before people roll their eyes — Isaac Newton spent most of his time pursuing —

Isaac Newton and Alchemy

TIM HOGAN: 85% of everything Newton wrote had to do with alchemy. The 15% was on gravity or whatever, but even that was tied into alchemy. He was noticing that when he zoomed down on the elements and metals, he found these secret forces acting — which we now recognize as covalent bonds — that were forming between things. And he also saw those same secret forces happening between the planets above.

So he rationalized, according to the Emerald Tablet — “as above, so below” — that there was a force happening both on the upper and on the lower.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: And he was trying to understand what that force was, and that’s how he developed gravity.

AJ GENTILE: But wasn’t he working off a translation of the Emerald Tablet?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. In fact, he had his own translation of it. In my book, Alchemical Keys to Masonic Ritual, I actually have isolated Isaac Newton’s translation of the tablet. It’s also in my book Novo Clavis Esoterica.

AJ GENTILE: We’ll put all that stuff up.

The Philosopher’s Stone and the Alchemist’s Urine

TIM HOGAN: But yeah, that’s what Newton was doing. And by the way, in that stage of the alchemical process — there’s a certain point where, whether you’re working with metals like gold or whether you’re working with herbs, when you are trying to extract the secret salts, this hidden manna, these monoatomics — there’s a certain point where it turns very yellow. And it looks like piss.

AJ GENTILE: Yes.

TIM HOGAN: And the alchemists called this “the alchemist’s urine.”

AJ GENTILE: I mean, this —

TIM HOGAN: So this is why everyone thought that you had to extract it out of urine.

AJ GENTILE: That’s what I thought.

TIM HOGAN: But it’s not actual urine. It’s philosophical urine. The alchemists described what things looked like, not what they actually were. So it looked like urine, so they called it urine. Same reason why, when they first started digesting an herb and it would start to turn reddish, they called it menstruum — but it wasn’t actual menstruum.

And I watched your great episode on the Emerald Tablet and the discovery of phosphorus that came out of that. But the true “urine” had nothing to do with urine.

AJ GENTILE: Thank goodness.

TIM HOGAN: It had to do with the fact that it looked like urine.

AJ GENTILE: So all those people on those forums that were collecting their urine — they made a terrible mistake.

TIM HOGAN: Terrible mistake. Yeah. There are some people that believe their pineal gland is excreting melatonin, but also dimethyltryptamine — DMT.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: And that it gets collected in the urine, so they could extract that out of the urine.

AJ GENTILE: Oh, I never heard that.

TIM HOGAN: I’m not going to try that. But that’s not something I would recommend. I mean, the true urine that the alchemists were referring to is a stage in the process where it does look like urine, but it’s not really urine. That’s just what it looks like.

The Emerald Tablet and Its Origins

AJ GENTILE: Who found the Emerald Tablet? And does that connect to the Templars?

TIM HOGAN: Well, originally the Emerald Tablet was said to be found — so it was written by Hermes, or Hermes Trismegistus, Hermes the Thrice Great. And it was said to be—

AJ GENTILE: Let’s go there for just a second, because Hermes Trismegistus — so that’s Hermes and Osiris together. Yes.

TIM HOGAN: Well, it’s kind of — so the story of Osiris, as I just mentioned, was an alchemical metaphor. It was also the story of Atlantis, right? Where it was originally the civilization, it got chopped up, sent out Isis — Isis, which by the way, her name means throne or power. Osiris’ name in Egyptian is Osar. It was the Greeks that named him Osiris. But his original name in ancient Egyptian is Osar. And the “S” part of it means Isis. It means throne, because that is where the power comes from. And then the “sar” was his part — by the way, “sar” is where we get the word “sir” and “sire” from.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: But the throne was Isis, so the seat of power was Isis. So she goes and collects the pieces, brings them back together, resurrects him, and that’s the story of Egypt.

AJ GENTILE: Right. And Hermes is the God of writing and knowledge.

TIM HOGAN: Writing, knowledge. In ancient Egyptian, he was Thoth — Thoth or Tahuti, right?

AJ GENTILE: Thoth. Yes. Yep. So—

TIM HOGAN: And by the way, that story of Osiris also symbolically represented, from a Gnostic standpoint, the path that we all go through — where we come into this world, we incarnate, we see everything in pieces, as separate. And it’s only when we’re able to put them all back together again into the oneness that we have the understanding that we’re all a part of this universal intelligence.

AJ GENTILE: This is why I need you here for eight hours.

The Osiris Myth, Lazarus, and the Initiation Rite

TIM HOGAN: That’s another side. But so the Osiris myth represented all these things, right? And the pharaohs used to go through an initiation where they would be symbolically killed like Osiris and then brought back.

And by the way, this is what Templars believe Jesus was doing with Lazarus — he was initiating him. Because in Hebrew, Lazarus is “Elasur.” Well, “L” is the Egyptian article for God. And “Assur” was the ancient Egyptian name for the God Osiris. And he was raised in Bethany, or in Hebrew, “Bethanu.” “Beth” means house in Hebrew. And “Anu” was the ancient Egyptian abode of the dead.

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: So you literally had Jesus raising the God Osiris in the house of the dead, which was either a metaphor or it was an initiation rite. And we think it was an initiation rite because Templars continue to do that same initiation.

And we’re not the only ones. The Mayans continue to this day to do that same initiation rite. And you’re raised by the same grip, the same hand grip. That’s how, when the Templars went over and met with the Mayans, they were able to give them this hand grip and they recognized it. The Hopi also recognize the same hand grip. They say this hand grip was given to them right before the last shaking of the earth, and it was given so that everyone — all the high priesthoods, the high shamans — would all recognize each other again.

AJ GENTILE: That’s fascinating.

TIM HOGAN: Because the Hopi also—

AJ GENTILE: —have a legend about the ant people coming out of the caves.

TIM HOGAN: That’s right — who had brought them underground right before the shaking of the earth. Yes, the same cataclysmic myths.

But the Druze of Lebanon have this same grip that they use in their initiations. The Sufis have this same grip. The same grip can be found within the Kabbalistic traditions of the Judaic. So it is all associated with this symbolic death and raising ritual. And the fact that all these different, separated cultures are practicing it and have the exact same grip suggests it all goes back to the same source.

I was down in the Yucatan years ago and I was meeting with the Mayan, and we give this grip to this day. I still participate — when we do our tours, I allow them to participate in these ceremonies down there. The Mayans will do these ceremonies for us because of my association with them.

But they took me to this — they had recently taken apart a pyramid in order to use the stones to build fencing, which is kind of a sad commentary. But when they disassembled the pyramid, they found all these artifacts inside, which they put into a mobile home unit and turned into a museum. And the figures are performing this initiation rite.

AJ GENTILE: Amazing.

TIM HOGAN: And I asked them, “Well, how old are these figurines? Do you know?” And they’d actually been carbon dated to about 900 AD. Well, that’s before the Templars ever existed. It’s before any European — that we know of — ever went over into the Yucatan. But the fact that they were practicing it back at least that far again suggests it’s a tradition they inherited. And they say they inherited it from Echelon.

AJ GENTILE: Yeah. I think it’s going to be in short order that the mainstream archaeology is going to become the fringe archaeology, in my opinion.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, I think you’re right.

Back to the Emerald Tablet and the Hermetic Texts

AJ GENTILE: We only have about 20 minutes left. So let’s get back to the Hermetica and the Emerald Tablet.

TIM HOGAN: So the Emerald Tablet — supposedly it was originally discovered in Siwa in Egypt. According to tradition, Apollonius of Tyana discovered it. According to Templar tradition, Apollonius of Tyana was actually the apostle Paul, and that “Paul” is just short for “Apollonius,” which just means “little Apollo.” But that’s a whole other discussion.

Supposedly he discovered this tablet at the grave of Hermes, or Thoth — because again, Hermes was Thoth, or Tahuti, in the ancient Egyptian — and continued to pass it on.

Now, what is interesting — from Nag Hammadi, which is where all these earliest fragments of the Gospels were discovered in these clay jars — the other thing that they found in those clay jars were a bunch of Hermetic texts. Which means that these early Christians were revering Hermetic texts just as much as the Gospels.

AJ GENTILE: Sure. I mean, I’m assuming most people know, but maybe not — the Bible had a lot of controversy over what books would go in and come out.

TIM HOGAN: Right, correct. And some of those early fragments became part of the standard Gospels and some of them didn’t. The Council of Nicaea in 325 — they were removed.

AJ GENTILE: So the Gnostic texts were not going to make it in there.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. A lot of the Gnostic texts just weren’t going to make it in because they painted a different perspective. But those Gnostic texts were in line with the Hermetic texts.

And one of the things we have to understand about Hermeticism in general — and the Emerald Tablet falls into this as well — it talks about “as above, so below.” It says that all was created by the meditation of the One, and it all goes back to the one mind.

Well, Hermeticists believe that if you’re the creator of all that is, there’s nothing around you to create with, because you’re all that is. You’re the singular intelligence. The only way that you could create is within your own mind. And therefore, everything that we see around us that we think is real and solid is just mind stuff — it’s the mind of the creator.

And of course, 20th century physicists told us this. People like Maxwell, Planck, and Heisenberg — they all said the more they look at the foundation blocks of matter, the more it appears that we’re living in a mind. It’s all mind stuff.

AJ GENTILE: Sure. If you can explain the collapse of the wave function, then—

TIM HOGAN: Right.

AJ GENTILE: —go get your Nobel Prize.

TIM HOGAN: That’s exactly right. But it’s completely in line with the Hermetic texts. And of course this is completely in line with the things Jesus was saying too. I mean, this is how you would perform the miracles — because if your mind is a part of the greater mind, and all so-called matter is just made up of mind stuff—

AJ GENTILE: What language is the tablet in?

TIM HOGAN: And so the—

AJ GENTILE: Who created it?

The Phoenician Connection

TIM HOGAN: So supposedly the original Emerald Tablet — which has never been found, but has been translated over the centuries — was written in Phoenician. The thing we have to understand about Phoenician is that the Phoenicians were basically the cousins of the Egyptians. In fact, even Osiris — when the parts of his body were finally reassembled — it was in Byblos, which was a Phoenician city.

But the Phoenicians — and by the way, if you look at the hieroglyphs for the letters, the simple letters, the standard letters, not like complex hieroglyphs that explain different concepts, but actual letter forms — you look at the Egyptian hieroglyphs. For example, the Egyptian hieroglyph for the letter M is an owl. And if you look at the Phoenician letter for M, it looks like the head of that owl. You take the Phoenician and carry it into the Hebrew — the Hebrew letter “mem” — it’s just a re-emphasis of that Phoenician letter M. So you can trace the Egyptian hieroglyphs to the Phoenician, to the Hebrew very easily.

AJ GENTILE: Yep. And I don’t think that’s controversial.

TIM HOGAN: It’s not even controversial. And that’s why a lot of the Egyptian words became Phoenician words, which became Hebrew words, even to this day.

But the Emerald Tablet was originally said to be written in this Phoenician language, found in Egypt. Translations of it had been copied for the last several thousand years, going all the way back. Some of the earliest sources were Arabic sources copying it. And then later, people like Sir Isaac Newton were making their own translations of it.

AJ GENTILE: Could the Phoenicians have gotten that information from the Atlanteans?

TIM HOGAN: Possibly. I mean, again, the Phoenicians were kind of like the cousins of the Egyptians, and they were both believed to be essentially the same cultures. They even had the same gods. Thoth, or Tahuti, of ancient Egypt was “Tuat” of the Phoenicians. And the Egyptians and even the Phoenicians said that their chief God was known as “Al Elyon,” which was this God of light. And the same El Elyon was probably the Aten of the Egyptians — the secret one God that all the gods were said to be a part of.

In the same way, even today within Christianity, we have the archangels. But if you break down the names of the archangels — like Uriel, for example — “El” means God, so Uriel means “the light of God.” Raphael means “God heals.”

AJ GENTILE: Right.

TIM HOGAN: Gabriel means “the strength of God.”

AJ GENTILE: I didn’t know that.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. Mikael means “is like God.” So they’re all aspects of God.

AJ GENTILE: Sure.

TIM HOGAN: Right. So if you want to pray to the healing aspect of God, you pray to Raphael, because that means “God heals.” So Raphael is the archangel that delivers the message that you need healing to God, according to standard modern Christian theology.

But if you really break down the Hebrew roots, these are their own beings, but they’re aspects of God — in the same way ancient Egyptians believed that the different gods, the Neteru, were aspects of the one God. That was the great secret that Akhenaten revealed, and then got in trouble for.

AJ GENTILE: Oh, yes.

Upcoming Egypt Tour

AJ GENTILE: So you’ve got a tour coming up in March.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, in March, beginning of April, to Egypt.

AJ GENTILE: What are we going to see that you can’t see if you just go on your own?

Templar Tours and Final Thoughts

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So if you go on our tours, we go to all the major temples in Egypt. We start out in Giza and we start to go to the temples around Giza, and then we fly to Luxor and we see Luxor and Karnak and then all in Aswan and Osirian. We go to the Osirian at Abydos and we have a lot of tourists.

If you go to these places, you can kind of look over them, like the Sphinx. There’s a lookout point where you can look down at the Sphinx, but you’re not allowed to actually go into the Sphinx enclosure. But our tour has access to everything. So we can actually go into these areas. We can go into the Sphinx, we can go into the Osirian. There are secret areas in the Temple of Hathor at Dendera that are closed to the public, but we have access to them. So we actually go into them.

And then the trip culminates back at Giza and we have the Great Pyramid to ourselves. The last night, they kick all the tourists off the Giza plateau, we get a military escort to the Great Pyramid. They guard it for the night for us, and for those people who are interested in the Templar path, we will initiate them in the pyramid.

AJ GENTILE: You could petition to become a Templar.

TIM HOGAN: Correct. So we have a priest study body known as the Templar Collegia. Anyone could go to that. It’s templarcollegia.org. It’s 40 bucks — you apply for 40 or 50 bucks, something like that. We do a background check. As long as everything looks good, we send you your first study material. It’s a thousand-page book called the Codex. It’s all the fundamental information that we feel like you need to know as a Templar.

AJ GENTILE: I’m buying it today.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, it’s great. And then there’s a second Codex, Volume Two, after you’ve studied that. So we get people starting to study that, but if they go on our tour, we’ll also initiate them in the Great Pyramid.

AJ GENTILE: Unbelievable.

TIM HOGAN: And we’re the only group that’s allowed to do this because we’ve been doing it for the last thousand years, and we do it in the way that was always traditionally done.

Zahi Hawass, the Arab Spring, and Egypt’s Instability

AJ GENTILE: Has Zahi Hawass ever gotten in your way?

TIM HOGAN: No. We came close. In 2011, we were doing initiations in there, but it was during the Arab Spring. Mubarak had just gotten deposed and Zahi Hawass had just gotten fired — and that’s a whole other story we don’t need to get into right now. But we had almost run into some problems then. And then there was about a 10-year period where we could not do it because things were too unstable in Egypt. But they are fine now.

When we travel on these tours, we have armed guards with us from the Egyptian government who make sure that we are all okay the entire trip. We set it up where we have private time in all these temples.

We go to the Temple of Horus at Edfu, for example. We show you where the Atlantis myth is inscribed on the building — or the legend of Utlant. That’s what the Egyptian name for it is, Utlant. And so probably when Solon — Plato’s great-great-great-grandfather — talked about the Atlantis myth, he was learning about Utlant and he just called it “Utlantis,” and that’s how it came to Plato.

But we show you where Utlant is written on the temple wall, and it shows all the meters and boats coming to Egypt to set things up. And they have with them an ark on the boat. There is actually a replica of one of those arks in the Temple of Horus at Edfu. That is closed to the public, but we actually have access to that as well. So you can go in and actually see the chamber and see the ark. It’s a replica, but it’s still there.

The Hawara Labyrinth and Elephantine Island

AJ GENTILE: I would love the influence of the Knights to get us digging in the Hawara Labyrinth.

TIM HOGAN: Yes, I’ve known about that. I first went there with Robert Bauval back in 2010, 2011, and we were scoping that whole area out. It’s been known about for a long time.

AJ GENTILE: Well, since ancient times.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, exactly. And there’s still statues poking out of the ground and everything there. It’s pretty amazing.

AJ GENTILE: But there’s that metal ring down there.

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, 100%. There are a couple of things that still need to be dug up in Egypt. That’s one of them.

There’s also an area we go to on our tour called Elephantine Island. Elephantine Island looks like a bomb went off on it. But it’s where there used to be a very early Jewish temple on that island. There’s a Temple of Thutmose III there. Elephantine Island was like the museum for the ancient Egyptians, where they brought all of their discoveries. It’s one of the oldest places in Egypt, and it’s closed to the public, but we have access to it.

There is a museum on the island, and they have things like boomerangs that had been preserved there.

AJ GENTILE: Wow.

TIM HOGAN: What were they doing with boomerangs? And by the way, the boomerangs even have kangaroos on them.

AJ GENTILE: What?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah. So clearly the ancient Egyptians were traveling to Australia and bringing this stuff back and then preserving it on the island.

We also know that there’s an ark on Elephantine Island that hasn’t been dug up yet. And it’s issuing so much energy that it’s actually turning the granite into slate on the island, which normally would take thousands of years. But something’s doing it — there’s so much high energy, it’s speeding up that process. We show that on the island and we kind of know where the ark is, but they’ve been digging down to it for the last 60 years. There are some German scientists right now who are in charge of all that.

And by the way, on the island, there’s also vegetation that you find — it’s the only place in Egypt where you find this vegetation. And it’s vegetation from the New World, from the Yucatan.

AJ GENTILE: Amazing, right?

TIM HOGAN: Which again proves something. They bring things back, growing it there. And there are temples too. There’s even a temple that has a mural of Egyptians meeting with Mayans on this island. And we show that — there’s no question.

Where to Find Tim Hogan

AJ GENTILE: There’s DNA evidence that people — right. One last time, Tim, where can we find you online? Learn more about you. Do you have seven books?

TIM HOGAN: Yeah, seven books. You can find all my books on Amazon. If you just Google Timothy Hogan, you’ll find them. You can also find them at Lulu Press. There’s a Timothy Hogan page that has all my books.

If you are interested in the tours, you can search for Templar Travel Tours — that’s my company. Next year we have an Egypt trip, a Mexico trip, and a UK trip. And in each of these areas we explore not only the Atlantean connection, but the Templar connection with this stuff. We prove it on the tour, so you can see for yourself these Templar connections at these areas.

AJ GENTILE: Can’t wait.

TIM HOGAN: And then the other company that you can find me at — you can go to templarcollegia.org. That’s where, if you’re interested in potentially starting the study and becoming a Templar, we can start you on that process.

And then finally, if you look up Nura Buddha or Templar Made — Templar Made is my company where we manufacture monoatomic gold.

AJ GENTILE: Okay.

TIM HOGAN: And we make that available to the public too, but not with urine.

AJ GENTILE: Not with urine. Okay.

TIM HOGAN: There’s no urine involved. Yeah. Even though there’s a stage in the process that’s called the “urine stage” because it looks like urine — but it’s not. It’s actually gold chloride, which looks like urine.

AJ GENTILE: Tim Hogan, this has been a treat, a joy.

TIM HOGAN: Well, it’s been a super joy for me. I love the work that you do and I’m so thankful that you brought me on here.

AJ GENTILE: Please come back anytime.

TIM HOGAN: I would love to do that. We have a lot more we can talk about.

AJ’s Breakdown: What Checks Out and What Doesn’t

AJ GENTILE: So much. Have a great time. Bye, everybody.

That was Tim Hogan, who has become one of my favorite people. He’s kind, compassionate, and he knows everything about the Knights Templar. But let’s break down the conversation.

Here’s what we know for sure. Tim’s credentials check out. He’s the Grand Master of the Order of the Temple of the Secret Initiates. His family history with Freemasonry and the Templars is documented. General Joseph Warren is real. The Denver Airport connections are real. His father was mayor of Aurora. The standard Templar history he laid out — 1118 to 1307, the banking system, Friday the 13th, Jacques de Molay’s execution — that’s all historical record, so there are no issues there.

As for the big claims, Tim talks about the Younger Dryas cataclysm wiping out an advanced civilization. Well, that was fringe science until pretty recently. A 2024 study from the University of South Carolina found shocked quartz evidence supporting the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis — that a massive comet, possibly 50 miles wide, struck the Earth about 12,900 years ago. The mainstream is catching up on this one, and I’m on board.

As for monoatomic gold as a superconductor, that’s another piece of pseudoscience that’s becoming not so pseudo. There’s actually a 2024 peer-reviewed paper in the Betty Swift University Journal examining gold compounds in relation to superconductivity research. Tim sells this stuff on his website. I can’t vouch for it, but I can’t debunk it. Purchase and consume at your own risk.

Now, the Ark as an electrical capacitor — well, the Jewish Bible Quarterly published an academic paper on exactly this theory. The gold-wood-gold construction mirrors a Leyden jar. The science tracks, even if the application is speculative. If you watch my episode on the Ark, I break down how this works scientifically.

During our conversation, we mentioned that Isaac Newton spent most of his time on alchemy. That’s true. Indiana University’s Chemistry of Isaac Newton project documents that he wrote about a million words on alchemy. Francis Bacon’s New Atlantis being connected to the Rosicrucians — historian Frances Yates made that argument academically.

One claim I couldn’t verify: Tim says Harry Truman wrote “we have discovered an ancient weapon” about the atomic bomb. I searched Truman’s actual diary entries from 1945. He calls it “the most terrible thing ever discovered,” but I couldn’t find that specific “ancient weapon” language anywhere.

Now the big ones — the bones of Jesus and Mary Magdalene in Washington D.C., and the six arcs his order claims to have. Well, the Talpiot Tomb was discovered in the 1980s. The ossuaries are real, the names are real, DNA testing was done. But whether those were Jesus and Mary Magdalene — that’s a bigger claim than I can process in one sitting.

My take is that Tim Hogan is either sitting on secrets that rewrite history, or he’s the most committed storyteller I’ve ever met. What I can’t shake is how much of what he says lines up with where the actual science is heading — the Younger Dryas impact, the piezoelectric properties of the pyramid’s granite, the hermetic roots of modern science. Mainstream research keeps catching up to ideas that used to be fringe.

Now, to learn more about Tim, check out his book The Templar Legacy on Amazon, or even join him on one of his tours to Egypt or the UK. Search for the Facebook group Templar Travel Tours. I’m actually going to go on one of these.

Remember, Tim’s not here to convince you of anything. What you believe is up to you. Either way, it’s a heck of a story. Until next time, be safe, be kind, and know that you are appreciated.

— End of transcript —

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