Transcript: Charlie Kirk’s Interview on Club Random w/ Bill Maher Podcast

So that’s the good news, parents, your kids aren’t on pot.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, but they’re on way worse. I think they’re on a big trip. But do you think that since we’ve legalized, less teenagers are doing like 13, 14, 15 year olds? Because that was always the argument, right? If we legalize it, less kids would do it?

BILL MAHER: I don’t know what 14 year olds are doing.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I don’t know the answer.

BILL MAHER: I just, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

CHARLIE KIRK: But we can agree that kids shouldn’t…

BILL MAHER: Oh, totally. But we also should be able to agree that we shouldn’t force adults to organize their lives around what kids might get into.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a good argument. I mean, do you think that it’s…

BILL MAHER: I mean, you’re not against porn, are you?

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, I actually once struggled with porn. Thankfully I’m free of that.

BILL MAHER: But I mean, how can you struggle with it? I mean, so easy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, you could grow addicted to it. I mean it can…

BILL MAHER: I was kidding.

Quality of Life and Personal Choices

CHARLIE KIRK: No, but I mean, yeah, I don’t have that issue anymore, thankfully. But I would ask the question though, like, do you think since the legalization of marijuana in LA it’s made it a better or worse place to live or just… It hasn’t changed at all?

BILL MAHER: It certainly hasn’t changed my life.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay.

BILL MAHER: I grew it right outside here.

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think the quality of life has gone up or down?

BILL MAHER: Well, I don’t know, but that’s not really the relevant question. Even if there is a deleterious effect, there are too many things we do and we would not use that as a reason to proscribe our basic freedoms.

CHARLIE KIRK: Should people be able to do drugs outside like on the street?

BILL MAHER: No, definitely not on the street.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, so there are some limits. Of course there are limits.

BILL MAHER: Yes. And maybe certain drugs should be by prescription as we do with pharmaceutical drugs, you know, but certainly pot is more benign than alcohol. I mean I could give you the stats on that. We all know that. Is it health food? No, I’m not crazy like some of my hippie friends are trying to portray it as something that’s actually good for your lungs.

But I don’t think it’s… Well, it’s a trade off. When you’re an adult, you have the right to make trade offs. Trade offs is the essence of life. I’m going to have this piece of cake tonight and be a little fatter tomorrow or I’m not going to do that and feel better tomorrow. And we all make those choices on a daily basis with everything.

Yes. Have I probably cut off some years of my life, maybe with pot? Who knows? I may have increased them because it helped me. It made me… Certainly made me richer, made me better at my job, better at writing, better at a lot of things I like to do. So, you know, I might be living in a two bedroom apartment in Van Nuys if it wasn’t for pot. And I’m probably going to live longer.

CHARLIE KIRK: Here or who knows how successful you could have been without it.

BILL MAHER: That’s true, too. That is true, too.

The Evolution of Cannabis

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think there’s any merit to the argument that the pot has more THC and is more intense than it was 30, 40 years ago?

BILL MAHER: It’s so hard…

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t know. I hear these things and…

BILL MAHER: Oh, I hear those things too. And I’m sure that’s true because once it became as commercialized as it has, of course you’re going to try to maximize the potency of it just because the customer comes back. Just like a restaurant is not interested in your health, they’re interested in making…

CHARLIE KIRK: Selling more product, making the food as delicious as they can and addictive.

BILL MAHER: Come back to that restaurant. So… But it’s so hard for me to tell you because I’ve been smoking for 50 years and I’m different. Who knows what I was thinking? I remember when I first smoked, we would just sit in the car and laugh at nothing for an hour. That doesn’t happen anymore. So my guess is the pot is stronger, but my resistance is weaker.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay.

BILL MAHER: Anyway, you know, people think I’m some sort of giant pothead. I’ve always been very circumspect about my pot smoking. I mean, I don’t smoke every day. The most I smoke is right here, once a week. I like to be in party mode when I’m with someone I’m getting to know. This is one of the joys of my life.

And, you know, I understand that it doesn’t connect with some people or make some people paranoid or something, but other people, it’s just… I mean, you know, some people like a scotch and some people like blah, blah, blah, and some people like complete sobriety. If that’s your thing, that’s fine. But to me, the most interesting place I can ever travel is inside my own mind. And drugs do help you get there.

Hard Drugs and Public Policy

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think all hard drugs should be illegal, like heroin?

BILL MAHER: Illegal? No. I mean, well, heroin… Are there any uses for it?

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean like what San Francisco did. They pseudo legalized it, right? I mean they said, “Hey, we’re going to make it easier for you to do heroin.”

BILL MAHER: No, we shouldn’t make it easier. That’s crazy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Where they had drug injection sites basically.

BILL MAHER: Yeah, that’s right.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s so silly. No, I know, but that was a public policy position of Seattle, Portland and San Francisco.

BILL MAHER: That’s the low lying fruit for you right now?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, that’s a question.

BILL MAHER: No, but isn’t it? I want to create low lying fruit. Who? It’s like, sure, it’s a right and…

CHARLIE KIRK: I think it’s a boundary. I want to create a boundary.

BILL MAHER: And you’re right, you know, I mean again, I’m for picking that fruit too. It’s silly to help drug addicts be drug addicts and keep them on the street. It’s stupid to keep homeless on the street.

Homelessness and Government Responsibility

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, I totally agree.

BILL MAHER: There’s another way. Liberals are different than the woke. The liberal thing for forever was for compassion’s sake, get them off the street. That’s not the woke version. Their version is they’re an endangered species. Don’t touch them in their natural habitat, living under a…

CHARLIE KIRK: Let them defecate, let them do whatever they want.

BILL MAHER: It’s their thing. And you know, I mean there should be nothing more basic than a government claiming the streets. The streets are for the citizens. It’s not to live in. Build a barracks. I mean, why are these things… Maybe you can answer them. Why are these kind of things so difficult that you think such common sense. Build a fucking barracks.

I know homeless people say they don’t want to live there. You don’t have a choice. “Oh, we’ll get robbed there.” Hire security. It’s pennies on the dollar. Why is it so difficult? I feel like I with no real knowledge of this field could do it, could just… If I had people who would carry out my… I would say, okay, get me specs. I want to see a place we could build it. I want to see what the barracks looks like. I want to see who works there. Is it really in the toilets? Whatever. And somebody must be Mitt Romney, somebody who did the Olympics, somebody who could come in and we know how to…

CHARLIE KIRK: Clean up the streets. I mean Gavin Newsom cleaned up the streets of San Francisco when Xi Jinping showed up. I mean it’s just an act of the will. They don’t want to do it.

BILL MAHER: Right. Like when they get the whores off the street when the Mayor is doing one of those cleanup or…

CHARLIE KIRK: When the MLB all star game goes to Seattle, all of a sudden it’s America’s cleanest city.

BILL MAHER: Right. So you’re saying if we can do it that one day.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m saying it’s an act of the will. It’s all that it is. And look, left woke… I wouldn’t even say left. It woke philosophy is they believe, they don’t really believe in private property. And at its core, why shouldn’t someone be able to defecate on the side of the street? Who are you to judge?

BILL MAHER: Well, that’s woke. Yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: Maybe I’m saying woke. Not even liberal.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m making that distinction, which I think is a fair distinction.

BILL MAHER: That’s another reason. Another one we can add to the list of woke is not liberal.

CHARLIE KIRK: And I think left versus liberal or woke versus liberal is an important distinction.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: I will say what makes you different is few liberals stand up to the woke. That is, few liberals are willing to stand up to woke.

BILL MAHER: Absolutely. And few conservatives stand up to Trump.

Standing Up to Leadership

CHARLIE KIRK: Fair enough. I mean, you can stand up or disagree, but I guess you could say the question is Trump woke is an ideology. Is Trump an ideology? I mean, he’s a person. MAGA is an ideology. But I mean, we can… I disagree with Trump on a lot of stuff. I mean, I don’t think we should go to war with Iran. I think that’d be a big mistake.

BILL MAHER: Also when you get to… We’re going to send homegrown American citizens to foreign prisons.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, so the thing he said, you…

BILL MAHER: Mean homegrown to Bukele?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, and if he were to do that, I wouldn’t support it.

BILL MAHER: Great.

CHARLIE KIRK: But I don’t… I think that is a one liner that he gave to Bukele. I think that is… You met the man.

BILL MAHER: Yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think he actually believes that? Like he would do that?

BILL MAHER: It’s worse if he does or would. It’s still horrible that an American president would say that. Look me in the eye and tell me if Obama had said that, what your reaction would be?

CHARLIE KIRK: Wouldn’t like it.

BILL MAHER: Wouldn’t like it. I think it would be a little more vitriolic than that.

CHARLIE KIRK: We’d be apoplectic.

BILL MAHER: Okay. I just, I’m finding out how honest you are, Charlie. And so far you’re… I think you’re doing good and I hope I’m doing good with you because if we don’t have the honesty, we can’t really, you know…

Deportation Policy and Legal Framework

CHARLIE KIRK: But to be, to also, to be fair to the whole, you know, topic in general, the outrage around deportations, as we’ve seen, you know, this these last couple of, you know, last couple of weeks is the American people voted for it. It’s perfectly legal.

BILL MAHER: Well, they didn’t vote for…

CHARLIE KIRK: They did vote for massacre people without any…

BILL MAHER: I mean.

CHARLIE KIRK: You mean that Maryland case is what you’re talking about, right?

BILL MAHER: The guy who they’re trying… Who they…

CHARLIE KIRK: MS-13 member.

BILL MAHER: Well, there’s no evidence that he’s… They don’t… They did not present evidence. I mean, I don’t really want to get into the weeds on this one because I got to do it on my show Friday. But… And… But the Supreme Court, I guess we have to get into the weeds.

CHARLIE KIRK: There’s even new evidence in the last couple of hours that you lead the conversation. You tell me how deep you want to go on it.

BILL MAHER: None.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay.

BILL MAHER: I mean, but I hope that if it comes to light… Let me button it up this way. I hope that if it does come to light, that there really is no evidence that this guy was a gang member, that he got swept up, which is very understandable. That when you do a sweep, when you’re doing big things, yes, there is… Nothing is going to go perfect.

But if it does come to light, I would hope that some Republicans have the spine to say, yeah, that’s not right. This guy should not be there. I mean, the Bill of Rights, it’s pretty clear that you can’t just disappear people without any sort of trial. Well, but…

CHARLIE KIRK: Sorry to interrupt.

BILL MAHER: And deportation is not the same thing as sending someone to a prison.

CHARLIE KIRK: But you are allowed to deport under the Alien Enemies act, correct? Someone who is part of a recognized terrorist organization, which MS-13 is pretty close to. A terrorist organization.

BILL MAHER: Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, you’re… You’re bending all these words.

CHARLIE KIRK: He’s not an American citizen. We got to acknowledge that.

BILL MAHER: No, absolutely not.

CHARLIE KIRK: So that’s important.

BILL MAHER: But he wasn’t here illegally, either.

CHARLIE KIRK: He was illegally the Maryland men. As long as we’re not talking about two different cases, we’re talking about Garcia.

BILL MAHER: Garcia.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes. He was an illegal immigrant to the country.

BILL MAHER: I thought he was waiting for asylum.

CHARLIE KIRK: You could be illegal waiting for asylum.

BILL MAHER: I see. So we… Okay, so they could deport him. That’s right. Yes, but we never did it.

CHARLIE KIRK: But to a prisoner, it’s an edge case. I acknowledge on the edge.

BILL MAHER: Okay, good.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, but the edge is… So there’s three ways you can deport people. Could be the Alien enemies Act of 1798. It can be expat…

BILL MAHER: Used only three times.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s fine. But, hey, look, and you quote the First Amendment all the time. That’s from 1787. Right? So old things are important. I’m just saying. Just…

BILL MAHER: That’s been used. That’s been used more than three times.

CHARLIE KIRK: Fair enough. But just because things are old doesn’t mean… And I’m not saying you’re using that talking point, but some people are trying to invalidate it just because it’s old. It’s also expedited release.

BILL MAHER: They’re trying to invalidate it because it doesn’t really apply to this, that it’s stretching.

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean, how is MS-13 not a terrorist organization?

BILL MAHER: Yeah, you can… Yeah, you can make that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Or Tren de Aragua. I mean.

Crime, Policing, and Urban Safety

BILL MAHER: Well, I mean, organized military, because terrorism really is a political movement. It means terrorizing the civilian population to achieve a political goal. These guys just want to grab your locket, you know.

CHARLIE KIRK: This is a lot more than that.

BILL MAHER: Oh, yeah, A lot more than that. Look, I’ve said that all this stuff I don’t like about Trump, I did it in my piece the other week when I was talking about the meeting at the White House that… No, he was tweeting about me. I’ve never liked anything. No, check the tape. There are things I like.

And one thing I liked was that the police have their morale back maybe now. And, you know, when you live in a city, it’s not a good thing when the police lose their morale because they feel like they’ve been painted with a broad brush, which they were after 2020, you know, and they’re like, okay, you know, and I’ve been very critical of the cops when I think they did bad things.

But do I think this is… It’s a racist, you know, attack squad. It’s not. There’s issues. There’s always issues in everything. And, you know, when… When you insult the cops, a way of kind of brooding about it, and it’s just not a good place to be in when you’re… When you’re a city dweller.

And so, you know, I don’t want to be killed by a gang member because they do random killings, you know, just to… As gang initiation so they can get the fucking teardrop under their eye. Okay, I want to be someone’s teardrop tattoo. You know, rando out to dinner. So I get it. You know, I mean, these are the things that lost the democrats, the election.

CHARLIE KIRK: 100%, you know, you got to take…

BILL MAHER: Care of this shit.

CHARLIE KIRK: And there’s real Americans that die. I mean, Rachel Moore and Laken Riley. There’s real… I mean Jocelyn.

BILL MAHER: Well, probably not at greater rates than are killed by regular Americans.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s debated, but let’s just put that aside. They shouldn’t be here. And so none of those murders happen. Right. And so anyway, back to the core question. Does the President have the ability to remove illegals that have come here under an enemy gang? Of course he does. Yeah, he has… He has the power given to him by that law.

Personal Background and Family Life

BILL MAHER: So you’re 31. What’s your background? I’m going to have to like Larry King this. You know what? Like Larry King used to just famously and I love Larry. I did a show a billion times.

CHARLIE KIRK: He was a legend. Yeah, I never met him.

BILL MAHER: And his thing was like I don’t prepare. I’m like the regular guy who just wants to know he’s curious about this person. So I don’t know. So I asked the questions that this person would ask you. Charlie Kirk, you’re 31 years old. You’re Jewish, right? No.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. That’s Muslim.

BILL MAHER: You’re married. How long you been married.

CHARLIE KIRK: It will be four years in May.

BILL MAHER: Wow. And kids?

CHARLIE KIRK: Two kids.

BILL MAHER: Yeah, two kids already.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, but we got to work.

BILL MAHER: No, Charlie, it shouldn’t be work. That’s all I’m going to say. I’m kidding. I know.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s an enjoyable work day.

BILL MAHER: It’s okay.

CHARLIE KIRK: We got to the fun, I should say.

BILL MAHER: And you’re going to have more.

CHARLIE KIRK: God willing.

BILL MAHER: God willing. Right, right. And, you know, we don’t see eye to eye on the religion thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, someone told me that.

BILL MAHER: I got to tell you, you should see my movie “Religulous.”

CHARLIE KIRK: I actually saw it.

BILL MAHER: Oh, really?

CHARLIE KIRK: And to your credit, what you did on Islam was awesome.

Discussion on “Religulous” and Wokeness as Religion

BILL MAHER: The other one’s not so much. That’s correct, buddy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Secondly. So if you just isolate the Islamic part.

BILL MAHER: But it was fun.

CHARLIE KIRK: Secondly, Jesus, to your credit, you treated woke like a religion.

BILL MAHER: Yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: And you criticize them with the same intensity and ferocity you did. And that does. You deserve a lot of credit.

BILL MAHER: Thank you.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I mean that. Because you looked at it as. This has catechism, it has religious type undercurrents, it has almost a metaphysical presence to itself. And so you’re an equal opportunity critic.

BILL MAHER: Well, I mean, yeah. And it’s funny because the director of “Religulous,” Larry Charles and I had dinner about a year ago and I suggested. And of course it went nowhere because we’re both too old to like, really act on it. But I said, people keep asking me, and I’m sure him also, to do “Religulous” too, but they, when they say it, they think we’re going to, oh, now we’re going to go to India and make fun of the Hindus. I’m like, I’m not doing okay. I’m not going to India. And the Hindus aren’t that funny.

Okay, we did it. The movie did great. And we love that. It stands the test of time. And people always keep coming up to me and seeing it. Movies are amazing that way. But I said, somebody gave me a great idea. Why don’t we do “Religulous” too? But the religion is wokeness. And then that’s what I was suggested. And I said, yeah, but then you’re going to have to do the right side of it too, because that’s also a religion. Christian nationalism. I mean, come on.

Your boys, some of the people I think you’re fond of, they mix religion and politics in a way that I think is not according to the Constitution. But I have to tell you, give you a lot of credit. I saw a video of yours where you were talking about how Christy, the original documents were, which is you know, I mean, my view is that the founding Fathers, we know a number of them were deists mostly, that was their religion. But you did. And you, boy, you have your facts down. I mean, you can spiel when you get on a subject like that.

CHARLIE KIRK: I got the shtick down.

The Founding Fathers and Christianity

BILL MAHER: You really do. And I trust you. You know, I’m going by what you. But, you know, that they were a little Christier than I thought, you know, and I’m always happy to learn new information. And if it doesn’t satisfy people that I don’t stay exactly where I am, it satisfies the people who are actually my fans who always want me to do that, to be like, oh, if I take in new information, I mean, that’s why, you know, the far left hates me because I went to the White House and said, well, privately, Trump’s different.

CHARLIE KIRK: And good for you for saying that. Yeah.

BILL MAHER: And I didn’t give an inch on anything. I believe I confronted him on things that I think, you know, he probably maybe never hears from anybody else, but that’s not good enough for them because, you know, they had to. But no, if you take in new information, just tell me. And so I do think, after listening to your spiel, that, yes, they were a little more into Jesus than I thought.

I mean, I know Jefferson wrote that Bible and took all — took all the miracles out. He took all the. The religiosity out of it and just made him a. A moral teacher, a moral Phil. Now, you have to admit that’s not exactly the act of a Christy person.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, but at least he acknowledged that there was something profound there. Got to give him credit for that.

BILL MAHER: I could even acknowledge that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, that’s good. I’m glad to hear you say, well.

BILL MAHER: Jesus as a philosopher was a true revolutionary. I mean, when he said, “the meek shall inherit the earth,” I think the.

CHARLIE KIRK: Response was, “blessed are the peacemakers.”

BILL MAHER: Yeah. But the idea that it gets good in the next life was fairly, I think, revolutionary. And the fact that, you know, if you’re a good person in this life, there’s a much greater. This is just the pre game. You want the after party. And the after party is just going to be awesome. You’re up there with me and my dad, God, and it’s just, you know.

Religion’s Impact on Society and Behavior

CHARLIE KIRK: What do you think would create a better society or better action? People that think that there isn’t. There is an afterlife based on how you act or people that think there isn’t one.

BILL MAHER: That’s a great. Because it certainly can turn people either way; it can make you fly planes into a building. I’m not speaking of any specific example.

CHARLIE KIRK: I can’t think of anything.

BILL MAHER: I can’t either. But it can make you do that. You’ll admit that?

CHARLIE KIRK: Sure. It could also make you do, like, blow up Oklahoma City, too.

BILL MAHER: Yes, and it can also. And I fully acknowledge that it also keeps millions of people in line, like Mark Wahlberg. I’m guessing without Catholicism, he just looks like a guy who would be in a lot more trouble. But I think it just has made his life, you know, much more under control. So there’s one Mark Wahlberg I think really benefits from Catholicism.

But I think there’s lots of people like that. They just, like, they truly are worried that if they do something out of line, illegal or immoral, that the devil will, in short order, after they die, be poking them in the ass with a pitchfork. And so they don’t do that. And I got to give it up. That’s a. You know, that is a positive.

CHARLIE KIRK: Are you at all worried that when a nation becomes too secular, it might not know what it believes? There’s no cultural cohesion. There’s no glue that keeps it together.

BILL MAHER: Yeah, but this isn’t that a nation. This isn’t secular. This is a bunch of fucking religious freaks.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s increasingly secular, though.

BILL MAHER: Well, thank you. I’m trying.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, but I appreciate it. You are quite the evangelist. Cause of no afterlife and creator.

Faith, Hope, and the Unknown

BILL MAHER: You know what? It creeps up a little. But people. People always are going to want it. They want that. People always are going to want to believe a story. It’s much better than the truth, which is that things are random. We don’t know the big questions. We don’t know how we got here. We don’t know why we’re here. We don’t know how the universe started. We’re alone in the universe. You know, is there a God? What is the nature of God? Which one is the right God? We just don’t. Nobody knows. I mean, that’s why they call it faith.

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you hope you’re wrong? That’s the most important question.

BILL MAHER: That’s a great question.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, how do you hope there’s a heaven?

BILL MAHER: I hope they figure out how I can live forever. I like it here with you, Charlie, drinking this and smoking pot. I’m having a great time. I really can’t imagine it better. I mean, I can’t. And maybe it is. I’m sure it is. I’m sure, you know, people have.

CHARLIE KIRK: But something in you probably hopes that. I don’t know. Yes, Hitler gets ultimate judgment or the most evil things. Right. Something in you wants to see your loved ones.

BILL MAHER: I don’t think about Hitler, no, but.

CHARLIE KIRK: There’s got to be a desire somewhere.

BILL MAHER: A lot of people just think about Hitler a lot. I know, but I’m just saying Hitler comes up a lot.

CHARLIE KIRK: Fair enough. Let’s. That there’s a desire that there’s some. Something beyond this. Well, that is just.

The Problem of Suffering and Faith

BILL MAHER: Okay, yes, I do. But I mean it’s very hard to find that justice on earth. Ask an AIDS baby Bill.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s why when you say, hey, I’m happy here, there’s a lot of suffering on earth too. And that’s the Christian argument.

BILL MAHER: It is.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s the Christian argument.

BILL MAHER: And some of it is, you know, we obviously can see it comes from no bad deed done, you know, children with cancer. And then they say, “well, that’s, you know, God works in mysterious ways.” Which is sort of a get out of jail card. It’s the funny kind of none.

CHARLIE KIRK: Admittedly, it’s the hardest we as Christians have to explain unjust suffering. Atheists have to explain everything else.

BILL MAHER: How do you explain it?

CHARLIE KIRK: We don’t. It’s hard. It’s a mystery. We can say God works in mysterious ways. We can say original sin. However, we don’t have to explain creation or the miracle of life or love.

BILL MAHER: Or justice or we don’t have to explain it either because it’s not explainable because we don’t know. We say we don’t know. That’s honest. You say no, somebody told a story a long time ago and we’re going to stick with that. That to me, I’m not trying to be insulting.

CHARLIE KIRK: You can’t offend me, trust me. I mean that. You could be as crude or as black.

BILL MAHER: I just that intellectually embarrassed.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s fine.

Biblical Truth and Historical Evidence

CHARLIE KIRK: And so is there any part of the Bible you think is true? Well, no, it’s an important question. Meaning, like when they were documenting King David, like, was King David a real figure?

BILL MAHER: There are shards of it that are. I’m sure.

CHARLIE KIRK: So Jesus was a real person?

BILL MAHER: Well, that we don’t know. That is not a definitive.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay.

BILL MAHER: It really is not.

CHARLIE KIRK: Like, take Paul. We both agree Paul was legit and a real person. Paul was a Jew, persecuted Jews and then had his, you know, road to Damascus moment. Why would he do that? Except for the fact that he’s crazy or like, delusional? What incentive would Paul have to do that rich ruling class gave up everything.

BILL MAHER: You know, you’re saying to me, is there never a case of human delusion or mass delusion or people can.

CHARLIE KIRK: Why are there suicide cults? Of course there are. No, I acknowledge that the capacity, the.

BILL MAHER: Human capacity to believe what’s not true, to believe what you want to believe is infinite. I mean, you are literally the person I’m talking about at the very beginning of the movie, religious. Because the very first scene I’m sitting in the car and I’m saying the movie is not a spiritual quest. I mean, that’s what we told them. So they signed the release.

The movie is me saying I don’t know how it could be that so many intelligent people can wall off a part of their mind and believe in something that that part of their mind must know is not true. That’s the question I’m going for in religion. And, and like, you’re obviously a super smart guy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, I respectfully. You go ahead. Sure.

BILL MAHER: And again, I don’t want to insult you on this and I appreciate you.

CHARLIE KIRK: Saying, I mean, have you seen me go to college campus?

BILL MAHER: Nothing that you understand my question.

The Fine-Tuning Argument

CHARLIE KIRK: Interestingly, ironically, I have the same struggle. I don’t know how somebody as intelligent as you, and I’m not trying to offend you, cannot believe an emergent bird.

BILL MAHER: Time out. Hold on. All of that takes faith, I acknowledge, but that all of the fine tuning of our universe. If any of those fine tunings were off a famous, A famous scientist.

BILL MAHER: Some of them are off.

CHARLIE KIRK: A famous scientist said to believe that the universe and the earth in its current composition was an act of randomness, would believe that a hurricane would go through a junkyard and assemble a 737 flight ready Boeing.

BILL MAHER: He’s wrong.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, that’s fine. But there are so many fine tuning aspects to our existence that I think defy the idea that this is all randomness and all chance.

BILL MAHER: Now, you know that’s not logical. You’re saying, because I don’t know the answer, I’m going to assume the answer must be that a divine intervention did it. That’s not really a scientific way of looking at it.

CHARLIE KIRK: So the teleological view, not the cosmological view, is that all of these fine tunings, when layered up one after the other, it defies, I think, reason to think that this is just a roll of the dice, that when you see a baby come into the world, when you see how we naturally heal, when you. Even consciousness itself, I think is a pretty miraculous thing to think that’s all just a bunch of happy accidents. I think it’s more rational to think that that’s a byproduct of design.

The Problem of Evil

BILL MAHER: You’re saying some prime mover made it so these made it so these things happen? I would say if a prime mover could do that, why don’t skip all the suffering and why don’t you just get us to where we’re the perfect thing? Why you need things? I don’t know. But okay, the perfect being. Right away we’re somehow on this journey to being, you know, completely immortal and healthy, I guess, and completely moral and don’t mess each other up and don’t have sex with children and all the bad things.

CHARLIE KIRK: All the evil of our world.

BILL MAHER: Yeah, all the evil and the Holocaust. And why go through all that? If you are a prime mover, I assume that means you can do anything and just get us right to the end and then we can just. What? Why just a bunch of us walking around being perfect? I mean, why is that interesting to a God? You know, the whole thing just don’t make sense.

The Big Bang and Prime Mover

CHARLIE KIRK: I get. So that’s, that’s a separate question though, of whether or not there is something behind our existence. I mean, so we believe that the universe started with a big bang. Do you agree with that?

BILL MAHER: Yeah, but that’s not the beginning of things. That’s just the beginning of what the known universe is. The big question is what was before that?

CHARLIE KIRK: And we believe it’s a being, a God. That’s right. That’s always, that’s constant.

BILL MAHER: And look, I mean, you know, the, the, the mis. About atheism is that we say, “oh, there’s no God.” No, we just, we just say we don’t know. As Richard Dawkins always says, there’s theism, which is belief in gods, and they used to believe in many, and then it got to one and we just believe in one less. So there’s just, just not.

CHARLIE KIRK: How would you differentiate that from agnosticism?

BILL MAHER: There isn’t. That’s, that’s another thing. That’s bullshit.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I, I don’t, I’m just asking a good faith question.

BILL MAHER: No, I think a lot of atheists think that. A lot of people on my team with this, they have that view that, you know, don’t split hairs with the atheists and the agnostics. It’s like we’re on some part of. I don’t know. And I really. And I’ll never know. So I really don’t think about it a lot. I don’t get up for church. I try to be a good person because I just think intrinsically it’s good for society. It’s good for me to be a good person as much as I can, and I don’t need the threat of the pitchfork in the ass to do it.

Morality and the Ten Commandments

CHARLIE KIRK: Can I. Can I ask a question? So how. But you even acknowledge, though, that some people act better if they feel as if they’ll be judged eternally.

BILL MAHER: Totally.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, no, that’s. That’s a big. That’s a big admission. But.

BILL MAHER: Oh, yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: How do you think society best determines what is good?

BILL MAHER: That’s a great question. I mean, isn’t that what government is always wrestling with, what makes society good?

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think, even as an atheist, the Ten Commandments? The right side of the Ten Commandments is a good place to start, right? Well, because the left side, I think you’d have a big problem, right?

BILL MAHER: I have a problem with. With eight of the ten. Because only two of them are laws.

CHARLIE KIRK: You got a problem with eight of the ten.

BILL MAHER: Two of them are laws. Only two?

CHARLIE KIRK: What do you mean? Don’t kill and don’t steal. Okay.

BILL MAHER: And don’t steal.

CHARLIE KIRK: Sure.

BILL MAHER: Like. I mean, this idea that God is.

CHARLIE KIRK: You’re good with those two, like, the.

BILL MAHER: First four, just jealous God, it’s just like. You know what?

CHARLIE KIRK: No. Honoring your parents is not jealous God stuff.

BILL MAHER: God’s like a pimp. It was in the next room and he said, “who you on the phone with there, girl?” You know, I mean, I guess I’m testing that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Hold on. But no, it’s. Again, I’m. I’m not offendable on this, but I think you could have. I know you made fun of it religionless, but. But there’s something beautiful about not working for a day. Oh, you don’t mean like honoring the Sabbath?

BILL MAHER: Oh, a week is even better. Well, the Sabbath. No, I mean, the Sabbath is slowing.

CHARLIE KIRK: Down and saying that we’re not going to toil for a day.

BILL MAHER: But do you need. Why would you need a religion to get to that? Why would you need a religion to, hey, let’s not kill each other and take a day off? Like, again, I don’t need a threat or a garret for that. It’s just so intrinsic. It sort of reminds me of the beginning of the Declaration of Independence.

Christianity and Moral Development

CHARLIE KIRK: If it’s intrinsic, then why is it that a lot of countries that don’t have Christianity struggle to come to these realizations that, for example, you know, Communist China, again, no Hitler analogies. Right. Under Mao, which was resolutely Atheist, right?

BILL MAHER: Resolutely, yeah. I mean, well, no, I did a monologue in religion.

CHARLIE KIRK: They might have Confucianism underlying it.

The Nature of Atheistic Societies

BILL MAHER: I did a monologue in Religulous about that very subject, which is the people who say, “Oh, Bill, these atheistic societies like North Korea and…” No, those kind of societies, they just replaced the leader of the country for a God. They are not atheistic. When you look at what the Korean, the North Korean people believe about Kim…

CHARLIE KIRK: Jong Un, it’s a deification.

BILL MAHER: The same shit that he… When he was born, winter turned to spring.

CHARLIE KIRK: He once… he’ll be immortal in the heavens.

BILL MAHER: First time he played golf, he got 11 holes in one. He invented the hamburger. I’m not making…

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s more improbable than a virgin birth.

BILL MAHER: It is, it really is. I’m not making this up. But they believe that. So don’t tell me North Korea is atheistic. They’re not atheistic.

Finding a Code to Live By

CHARLIE KIRK: But they… There is a… In China at least, and of course in the Soviet Union there was an anti-Christian movement. Very hard, very hardcore. Okay, so I guess like what code… And I’m not saying this sarcastically, like what code? What book do you think is best for humanity to live by? I say the Bible. What would you say? No, it’s an important, it’s an important philosophical question.

BILL MAHER: I have a book called “Not the Bible.” I’m not kidding.

CHARLIE KIRK: There’s literally so… not loving your neighbor and not like, you know, helping you. There’s a lot of good stuff. Okay, but again, let me tell you why I’m asking.

BILL MAHER: Well, you’re cherry picking. Come on, Charlie.

CHARLIE KIRK: The story of the Bible is one of love and redemption. There’s a lot in the Bible. It is. It’s a story of love.

BILL MAHER: The Old Testament.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, the entire arc of the Bible is a story of love and a need for humans’ redemption.

BILL MAHER: Well, that’s a charitable way of looking at it. And that’s in there. There’s a lot of things in there because it’s a giant anthology over centuries of many different writers.

CHARLIE KIRK: There is a lot in the Bible. There’s…

BILL MAHER: It wasn’t written by God. Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: There’s a book of the Bible I think you’d love.

BILL MAHER: What?

CHARLIE KIRK: Song of Solomon.

BILL MAHER: Song of Solomon. Crow’s We Souls in Nash.

CHARLIE KIRK: Song of Solomon’s all about sex. I know.

BILL MAHER: It is. Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Quote it can’t. It’s not. It’s not appropriate.

BILL MAHER: No. What?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, it’s… It’s too dirty for a mouth. It literally is about how a husband and wife can grow intimate to one another. And there’s…

BILL MAHER: Oh, can you tell me that? Can you give me the cheat sheet on that one?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, it’s… I’m telling you, the Bible has wisdom in ways you might never imagine, Bill. But no, what I’m getting at, though, is that human… This is not a gotcha or sarcasm. I mean this like… Humanity will seek to find a book. They’ll seek to find a code to live by. And I think it’s incumbent on atheists to tell us what that should be.

The Search for Meaning

BILL MAHER: I agree with the first part of that. Humanity will seek to find…

CHARLIE KIRK: Seek to know. That’s Aristotle’s first.

BILL MAHER: Well, seek to find something that mollifies their feelings. That’s different than knowing. No, they don’t really care about knowing. They care about mollifying their feelings. I feel empty. What will make me feel better? This book that purports to have answers it couldn’t possibly have. But it does make me feel better because now I don’t have to wonder about things that are very problematic to worry about, like how did I get here? And what does it all mean? And why do kids get fucking cancer when they’re two for no reason.

CHARLIE KIRK: And I don’t have an answer.

BILL MAHER: I know. I’m just saying. And I acknowledge that this book answers to that question. Don’t ask. Okay, don’t ask. A, and B, God works in mysterious ways. And that’s the end of it. Go to your room.

CHARLIE KIRK: I think it’s a little deeper than that. But it is. I mean, it is deeper. Of course it’s that, hey, why are we here? Why were we created? But fair enough. I do want to know, though. But like what?

BILL MAHER: I don’t got it for you. We don’t have it and we don’t claim.

CHARLIE KIRK: But that’s a big problem, though. And let me pause, because the Bible was the document as you acknowledged that our founders read and believed that built this beautiful society that you and I both love. And I think it’s treading on dangerous if we want to cut our roots without an alternative. Because if we cut our roots, then we get all this other counterfeit stuff of wokeism and all this postmodernist garbage. So our contention is, let’s go back to where we came from.

Life With and Without Illusions

BILL MAHER: You know who Eugene O’Neill is? No. Eugene O’Neill.

CHARLIE KIRK: No.

BILL MAHER: Oh, wow. Kids today, giant of American literature theater, “A Long Day’s Journey into Night.” Have you heard of that play? Never heard of “Long Day’s Journey into Night.” You kids, what are they doing with you in school?

CHARLIE KIRK: I never went to college, Bill. This is the problem.

BILL MAHER: Okay. Anyway, he once said, “A life… I find a life with illusions unpardonable and a life without illusions unbearable.” And that’s the essence of where we are. You choose the second, I choose the first. I find a life with illusions unpardonable. I just can’t do it. Okay? And you find a life without illusions unbearable. And the fact that we can, I think, come to this moment where we go, okay, that’s you type A, I’m type B, and still be friends to me. This is the future of where this country has to be.

CHARLIE KIRK: And nothing you have said has offended me in the slightest. And I appreciate that.

BILL MAHER: And I appreciate that because again, that was my question in Religulous. How can otherwise really super smart people… But this is the answer.

Religious Experience

CHARLIE KIRK: And can I interrupt? Do you doubt those of us that have had religious experiences? Do you think it’s just, like, neurological phenomenon?

BILL MAHER: How would you decide if I say…

CHARLIE KIRK: That Jesus changed my life and he’s gone to work in my soul?

BILL MAHER: Okay, but was he, like, getting… Did he jump in the car with you at the drive through? Okay, what you said, a religious experience. I have to ask how much that is.

CHARLIE KIRK: There was a moment where I realized that I’m not all that I would ever want to be, that I fall short of the glory of God’s wish.

BILL MAHER: And when was this?

CHARLIE KIRK: When I was in fifth grade, actually, believe it or not.

BILL MAHER: Fifth grade, really?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. That’s when I gave my life to the Lord.

BILL MAHER: You were thinking about this shit in fifth grade?

CHARLIE KIRK: Amazingly, I went to a Christian school.

BILL MAHER: So you don’t see that as indoctrination?

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, I actually went to a private school previously, but they didn’t force it on us, to their credit, no.

BILL MAHER: But you said you were in a Christian school. Okay, you’re 10, you’re in a Christian school. There’s no connection of, like, maybe at a very early age they put a chip in your brain.

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean, I still had to make the decision for myself and to the credit… And there’s a lot of kids that went to that school that aren’t Christians anymore.

Catholic School Experience

BILL MAHER: And so, by the way, I went to Catholic. I was raised Catholic.

CHARLIE KIRK: I went to… Didn’t stick.

BILL MAHER: I had the opposite reaction to catechism, which was the religious training we would go to on Sunday morning where you would learn how to be a good Catholic. And it just really turned me off to…

CHARLIE KIRK: Was it too forceful, too legalistic? Like all of it?

BILL MAHER: It was just giant… I mean, I was used to a room with 20 kids in it at regular school. And then on Sunday there’s like 60 kids and they’re from different schools and they’re just like that… And the nuns were like, mean. Because you got 60 kids you don’t really know. You have to… And of course they’re mean to begin with to get them in order and… And they scared you and they yelled at you and they hit you with a ruler on the knuckles. I really, I’m from that era where they still fucking hit you on the…

CHARLIE KIRK: You know how often I hear the rulers from like… I mean, scorned Catholics. The ruler is like a very common thing.

BILL MAHER: Again, the idea that you keep people in line, it’s by fear. That’s why you’re keeping people in line. And that’s a question an atheist, really, I think, is due to ask a religious person. Do you really think fear is the best way for us to grow and become good people? Because if that’s how we’re doing it, I do have a problem with the methodology. Even if I believed in the religion.

CHARLIE KIRK: I hear that from a lot of people that were raised Catholic and… No, I do. I’m sorry, it’s true.

BILL MAHER: It’s so true about the Catholic.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m sorry.

BILL MAHER: No, no, you’re right.

CHARLIE KIRK: I didn’t mean to… You know, did I do an exorcism or something?

BILL MAHER: You know, dress me? We have a whole highlight reel of spit takes. It’s the highlight of any show. If the guest doesn’t make…

CHARLIE KIRK: If I can make Bill Maher laugh.

BILL MAHER: If the guest doesn’t make me do a spit take, we consider this a failure. But you did. So go on. But yes, Catholics, yes. That’s exactly who you would hear that from.

Understanding Grace

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s an under emphasis on grace and grace. Yeah.

BILL MAHER: What is grace? It’s such a vague term.

CHARLIE KIRK: So justice is getting what you deserve. Yeah. We believe all humanity deserves damnation and judgment. Tough, tough stuff. And it started in the garden stuff.

BILL MAHER: Oh, you believe in the garden? You believe in the Old Testament?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah, I know.

BILL MAHER: Right to the… I’m one of those Christians, like 6,000 years old thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: Not necessarily because in religious…

BILL MAHER: I went to see the…

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m not necessarily.

BILL MAHER: I went to see the music. You know, the museum that they have.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah, Ken Ham Steel.

BILL MAHER: Ken Ham, yes. And we interviewed Ken Ham. He was not happy.

CHARLIE KIRK: You got to… You got to admit, the ark is pretty impressive. You’ve seen the ark. They built a whole ark there.

BILL MAHER: We were there for a whole day.

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t know, I don’t… Can’t remember if it was before or after the ark.

BILL MAHER: No, no, it was. And Jesus.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s impressive. Come on.

BILL MAHER: And Jesus riding the dinosaur.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I don’t know about that.

BILL MAHER: Jesus riding the dinosaur. Do I really need to elaborate, people? Okay, go ahead with your thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: Judgment is getting what you deserve. Mercy is getting less what you deserve. Grace…

BILL MAHER: Wait, wait. Mercy is getting less than what you…

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, so we believe Jesus gives us grace. So you get a prison sentence, you get judgment, you get mercy, you get less of a prison sentence. Grace would be Jesus serving that prison sentence for you so you could live life eternal.

BILL MAHER: How is he serving that? Oh, you mean like in the big picture?

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, because we believe him living a perfect life and then suffering the death that he did on the cross…

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: Was him atoning for our sins?

BILL MAHER: Of course.

CHARLIE KIRK: The sins of humanity.

BILL MAHER: Jesus. Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Which is a big claim, albeit, and a very compelling one, which we also believe one to be true because it redeems all of humanity of our short falling of the glory of God.

The Morality of Politics

BILL MAHER: I gotta say, it’s really picking up the check for the whole table, you know, I mean, you gotta give it to your boy for like all of our sins. It’s a very generous statement, but what.

CHARLIE KIRK: It does is very generous. It is at its core, a statement of human equality. That we’re all sinners, we’re all screwed up, we all got problems, we all got vices, and like no one, no matter what you do, we all fall short of God’s standard and Jesus makes us whole.

BILL MAHER: But how do you think this view of life reflects your politics and how much should it and how much does it. So look at me, Big pothead just turned into a real interviewer.

CHARLIE KIRK: I love it. It’s a Larry King coming full circle here. You and I both agree it’s very difficult to have separation of morality and state.

BILL MAHER: Correct.

CHARLIE KIRK: So my morals come from the Bible.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: And that definitely influences my public policy decisions.

BILL MAHER: Mine come from Playboy After Dark. Is that a problem?

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a little bit different than, let’s just say the book of Deuteronomy.

BILL MAHER: I’m just. Oh, well, that’s full of crazy shit.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, okay, yeah.

BILL MAHER: The book of Deuteronomy.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, there’s some.

BILL MAHER: That’s the one, but that’s the.

CHARLIE KIRK: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind. That’s good.

BILL MAHER: Yeah. Also, like, no poking in the wrong hole.

CHARLIE KIRK: You’re going to have to ask a Rabbinic Jew about that.

BILL MAHER: Well, there’s. There, it’s. I think it’s Deuteronomy.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s Leviticus has the. Do not lie to another man.

BILL MAHER: Right?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, that’s Leviticus 19.

BILL MAHER: No, and that’s not. That is wrong.

CHARLIE KIRK: Thou shalt not lie with me.

BILL MAHER: Do not lie to another man. Because if you lie to a gay man, oh, you are going to pay for it.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s rough stuff.

BILL MAHER: But lie with another man, that should be everybody’s right, don’t you think?

Biblical Views on Sexuality

CHARLIE KIRK: Personally, you have a right to do what you would like to do personally with another person. But I, as a Christian, do not believe that would be holy. I think it would be sinful. But that’s just. That’s a personal theological. I don’t want to get too deep, but that’s a personal theological.

BILL MAHER: No, we need to get a little deeper into this because it’s so important just to understand. Let me ask you what you believe. I believe that some people, a decided minority, maybe one out of 20, probably for whatever reason, that nature, this perfect nature that you describe as perfect.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, it was designed perfect. It’s all screwed up now.

BILL MAHER: Okay.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I mean, we have disease and we have, you know, all sorts of stuff. Got down syndrome.

BILL MAHER: We got other problems. Well, then it wasn’t designed perfect because it screwed up.

CHARLIE KIRK: You know what we believe, though? We believe there was a rebellion and a contamination of nature.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: Because that is sin.

BILL MAHER: Right. Okay. If they hadn’t eaten the apple.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, we actually don’t know it’s an.

BILL MAHER: Apple, but yes, it’s whatever the viral.

CHARLIE KIRK: Should have been. A mango. Well, I know. Don’t get me started on mangoes.

BILL MAHER: So as they say in West Hollywood, there’s nothing like having a mango in your mouth.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s George Costanza’s favorite fruit. But. Yes, but.

BILL MAHER: Oh, damn, now what was the point?

CHARLIE KIRK: Tell me something about Deuteronomy. Homosexuality. Is that you want to. Homosexuality, as we’re keeping it on the lighter topic.

BILL MAHER: Thank you. So about 1 out of 20 people, maybe even 1 out of 10, I don’t know. And then people will say there’s a spectrum. Maybe there’s a too. Of course there are. There is. Some people are like, you know, what the kids. Kids call zesty, you know, not gay, but kind of on the waiting list.

Okay, but let’s say just gay. Like people who are just not attracted to the opposite sex. They’re attracted and want to have sex with people of their own sex. Would you agree that that happens in nature?

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, of course it Does. Yes. There are instances of species in the animal kingdom that do that.

BILL MAHER: Absolutely.

CHARLIE KIRK: I acknowledge this.

BILL MAHER: And we are in the animal kingdom. In fact, we’re number one with a bullet. Okay, so given that we both agree that that’s a phenomenon that exists, there’s.

CHARLIE KIRK: Other things that happen in nature that aren’t so good too, but just. Yes, that’s correct.

BILL MAHER: Like on a par with this.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I’m just saying. Just to say that it happens in the species of the animal kingdom doesn’t make it necessarily morally okay.

BILL MAHER: But what’s immoral about fucking in the ass? I don’t understand why the ass in itself, ipso facto, is. Is immoral. It’s just an ass. And the fact that some people want to fuck in there. I done a million jokes about. I don’t get that. I mean, it’s where the shit comes out. I just don’t get it. Even if I was gay, I’d find another way, but that’s just me. But they do want to do it. Why is there a moral dimension to this?

CHARLIE KIRK: Again, I believe Scripture as God breathes.

BILL MAHER: Okay? Because the Bible says.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I do. You’re correct.

BILL MAHER: But you do know, like the, you know, argument from people like me, that kind of logical argument is that, well, these books were really not written by a God, they were written by men.

CHARLIE KIRK: And it reflected, of course, they were transcribed.

BILL MAHER: Reflected the primitive views of people in that era who would, of course, have had primitive views. They also didn’t understand germs or atoms, so their views on this were primitive. And they believed that there was something wrong with that. I get it. That it was different than most of the people in the tribe, that, you know, these two guys are going off and doing it.

But that we can, as sentient beings now, logical intellectual beings, recognize that this was from a long time ago. And now it’s just something that happens in nature, that some people want to fuck this way and some people want to fuck this way, and there’s no moral dimension to it and no reason to just call it a sin.

CHARLIE KIRK: Again, Christianity just disagrees with that. So, I mean, it’s the only sin that God destroyed a city over. So, I mean, and I’m not trying to be legalistic about it, it’s just a fact. Right. And it’s explicitly prohibited in the text, by the way. So is adultery, and so is stealing, and so is coveting. I’m guilty of coveting. And I mean, we’re all guilty of many sins. I’m not trying to single that one out. And try to be pompous.

The Nature of Sin and Coveting

BILL MAHER: Or I think the phrase you’re searching for is save your breath. This is what we believe. And I get it and totally doctrine. So wait, coveting? What do you mean? Now coveting is one you can’t control.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, that’s not true.

BILL MAHER: Oh, stop it. You can control coveting. It’s like saying you can control. If I say don’t ever think of a pink elephant, you will think of a pink elephant.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a little bit more than thinking. We would say in the interpretation of coveting, it’s to the place where you become obsessed. Oh, it takes your being.

BILL MAHER: No, oh no, that’s coveting. I thought coveting was just wanting something you don’t have.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s of course you can’t regulate every thought that you have. But coveting gets to the place where it becomes your identity of obsession. And let me tell you why. Because it says do not covet a specific thing. Your neighbor’s wife, you know, your donkey. So it’s like a very specific thing.

So for example, if like, you know, someone says, I want to be, I, I can’t stand Bill Maher. I want to be a comedian as successful as Bill Maher. It becomes their identity. I don’t think that’s good. I think, I think it ruins your soul. I think you would agree with that too. You know, people like that, don’t give.

BILL MAHER: Them any ideas, they’re already there.

CHARLIE KIRK: But people that are consumed. Yeah, you know, jealousy, that’s what we would say is not just like, oh, don’t think of the relevant. I’m not here. Okay, play air traffic control on your thoughts.

BILL MAHER: Right. Because you know, you’re an attractive guy. I’m sure there’s lots of MAGA groupies and I’m sure coveting comes up. You know, how can you not covet?

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, and praise God that I have a great wife.

BILL MAHER: Right. And you know, she understands about the coveting.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. We have a very healthy, loyal, you know, wonderful marriage. And look, but male nature is, that’s why there had to be a prohibition on adultery because it is male nature too.

BILL MAHER: I think it’s actually easier to be a female in that way.

CHARLIE KIRK: I completely agree.

BILL MAHER: Right. I covet being a female.

CHARLIE KIRK: I wouldn’t go that far, but how wrong is that? But no, and again, it’s, and again, good on you for being a liberal that acknowledges male female distinctions. What a concept.

Political Strategy and Gender Issues

BILL MAHER: I mean, of all the low lying fruit that the Democrats just like hand the Republicans to win elections, that’s the.

CHARLIE KIRK: One you Know, it’s so funny. I joked around with my team the other day. I said, are they really going to just let us win every national election on this? No men and female sports thing? Like, they can’t surrender on this one issue. It’s so ridiculous. It’s a 90-10 issue.

BILL MAHER: Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: There’s 890 medals and trophies of men winning these competitions.

BILL MAHER: You lost Gavin Newsom on this. Okay, take that as a hint. Right. I mean, you were. I think you were.

CHARLIE KIRK: I was the one that asked the question.

BILL MAHER: Right, yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Issue of fairness, all that.

BILL MAHER: Well, that’s what I started to say when you sat down. You’re everywhere now. You’re. Gavin knew everybody’s podcast. And, you know, look, I always say this. Everybody’s a monster till you talk to them. Not to say that there aren’t some people who probably are monsters, but, like, I mean, I’ve yet to find the horror show that is you.

CHARLIE KIRK: So keep looking, Bill.

BILL MAHER: No, I want to.

CHARLIE KIRK: You got to keep going.

BILL MAHER: I do. I want it. So tell me. Cut me. Cut me some slack because we’re friends now, right? We really are.

CHARLIE KIRK: Absolutely.

BILL MAHER: Okay, so just cut to the chase. What is it that the 10% who hate me.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah.

BILL MAHER: Tell me what they are wanting me to press you on now. What is the thing that presses their buttons the most about why you’re an incorrigible dick?

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t even think you would agree with their accusations.

BILL MAHER: But I just want to know what it is.

CHARLIE KIRK: They would say I’m hateful. They would say I’m a bigot. They would say that I’m a xenophobe. Those are the contentions that I.

BILL MAHER: But based on what things that you’ve said specifically?

CHARLIE KIRK: I mean, I believe that transgenderism is a mental disorder as it was diagnosed in the.

BILL MAHER: So you don’t think any people are, like, born, quote, unquote, in the wrong body?

CHARLIE KIRK: No, I don’t.

BILL MAHER: No.

CHARLIE KIRK: I think people might think they are born a different body. But I believe it to be a mental disorder, as most of clinicians did up until the last five or ten years.

The Entrapment Discussion

BILL MAHER: Well, you know, this is another one where the woke hates me. I mean, I did a whole thing on how I think. And we do disagree on this, by the way, because I do think there is such a thing being brought in the wrong body. But I said what’s going on in the country is what I would call entrapment.

Because entrapment by legal means is when you suggest to people something they really wouldn’t have done anyway. And I use the example of the Liberty Seven, the seven African American gentlemen in Miami who were planning to blow up the Sears Tower. They were not. The FBI came in to seven people who were probably had good reason to be discontented with America and said, “Wouldn’t it be great if we blew up those Sears Tower in Chicago for Allah?” And they were like, “Yeah.” And they didn’t even have a gun. That’s entrapment.

CHARLIE KIRK: Or the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping case. Similar. Yeah, no, that’s real. No, that’s legit kidnapping. That was entrapment.

BILL MAHER: So she really wasn’t.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, that was an FBI entrapment thing. Absolutely.

BILL MAHER: It was.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah. It was like eight. It was like five feds and two guys.

BILL MAHER: Anyway, for the record, I’m not acknowledging that I agree with that because I just don’t know if in the comments.

CHARLIE KIRK: You guys can agree or disagree.

BILL MAHER: I’m just acknowledging that I respect Charlie Kirk enough to look into whether that is. And it could be true because I say it all the time. I don’t believe anybody. I. You just lost my trust. All media. Right. Left. Very few people do what they’re with you. Do I have like, okay, I hear what you’re saying. Now I have to go vet it.

Trump’s Public vs Private Persona

CHARLIE KIRK: Hilariously, more people that I know that are center left now say, “I think Trump is not a monster” because Bill Maher, of what he said on anything else.

BILL MAHER: Well, I didn’t exactly say that.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, no, you said “crazy person lives in the White House.” That was what you said.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: And you said he was respectful and serious.

BILL MAHER: Yes, I said not a crazy, but a person who acts crazy on the public.

CHARLIE KIRK: Those are two different things, though.

BILL MAHER: I know, but that’s what matters. I also said it doesn’t matter what it. What he does in a private dinner with a comedian. What matters is who he’s on the world stage. What bothers me about the critiques I get is that they don’t acknowledge the points I myself made.

CHARLIE KIRK: Fair enough. Let me ask.

BILL MAHER: No, I don’t mean you.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, no, no. But would you prefer him to be crazy in private or crazy public? Let’s just say I’m not saying it’s crazy.

BILL MAHER: I just took it as a positive. And I said this, I took it as a positive that at least there is this other person that I see that is not. Is undeniable. And again, for all the people who. We’re losing truth. Yes. I was one of the first to say that we are losing truth. Okay, but I told you the truth. That’s all I did. I went there and I told the truth of what happened.

CHARLIE KIRK: Good for you.

BILL MAHER: And they would prefer that I had lied.

CHARLIE KIRK: Did you sign the Bill Maher Accords? It was like a.

BILL MAHER: Exactly.

CHARLIE KIRK: It was like the ramification of a treaty.

BILL MAHER: But he signed that piece.

CHARLIE KIRK: I thought that was hilarious.

BILL MAHER: It is hilarious.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s like you guys were negotiating.

BILL MAHER: First of all, the thing I did was fucking funny. Give me a little credit.

CHARLIE KIRK: Did you sign the thing?

BILL MAHER: No, but the whole piece I did on my show, I thought it was terrific. Yeah, it was funny.

Trump’s Character and Leadership Style

CHARLIE KIRK: And honestly, good for President Trump for hosting you. And he had the magnanimity to do that and listening.

BILL MAHER: And again, the reason why I was the perfect choice for this was because. Because nobody had been harder on him. So it was a real Nixon to China thing. And by the way, if you don’t know what Nixon to China means, you probably shouldn’t be commenting on political matters to begin with. My critical friends.

CHARLIE KIRK: Your meeting, I thought, was a great window into the whole liberal world. That shows the Donald Trump that I know and that I’ve gotten to know, which is. And I. I just thought it was hilarious when he was, you know, asking you about Iran. Right. He’ll ask anybody about anything. He loves asking people’s opinion. He listens more than he talks.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: He’ll solicit opinions. I know. It blows people’s minds when we say this.

BILL MAHER: Well, it also blows our minds because then he doesn’t do the right thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, sometimes he does. Sometimes he does the Abbasida Jerusalem.

BILL MAHER: I gave that whole list. I also gave the list of things that. That are horrible. Disappearing people and ignoring judges and gutting the government with glee. This tariff thing that even the conservative press has turned off on. So, yeah, it was just honest down the line on both sides. Do you feel I just told you what I saw and good for you and didn’t. And I just told this to Harvey Levin on his show. I’m proud I looked him in the eye and said, “You’re scaring people.” I’m proud I looked him in the.

CHARLIE KIRK: Eye and said, how did he react to that?

BILL MAHER: I know, but see, that’s the thing. I said that the night I gave it, I said, “You’re scaring people. Why do you want to scare your own citizens so much?” And I know everybody wants to know what he said. And the truth is, I don’t remember, but it wasn’t, what kind of drugs.

CHARLIE KIRK: Were you guys doing that night?

BILL MAHER: But it wasn’t.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay, I’ll stop Okay, then you would have remembered that.

BILL MAHER: I would have remembered. So I have no illusions that, you know, my dinner with Donald Trump is going to change the nation. But to the, to the haters, it’s just like. As opposed to what? Not engaging at all.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s. That is. That is there.

BILL MAHER: It’s either me or Gretchen Whitmer with the, with the binders in front of her face. I mean, I feel like I did it better. I went in there, I didn’t give one inch on what I believe or saying to his face what I believe, but I told the truth about how he’s different in private.

Political Engagement and Leadership Styles

CHARLIE KIRK: Do you think, what do you think about the idea? Here’s how I would frame it. You going to meet with Trump would be the equivalent of Biden inviting me over for dinner. Meaning, Is that fair?

BILL MAHER: Absolutely.

CHARLIE KIRK: Okay. I don’t want to put words in your mouth. Why do you think Biden or Obama wouldn’t do that and Trump did.

BILL MAHER: I mentioned that too. The thing I said, you know what you did? I said, you know, because, look, this was kind of a guy’s dinner. And I. Look, Donald Trump is a man of a certain age, of a certain way of life. I just think he’s comfortable with the guys. Not. And I also think he loves his wife more than is let on, but, like, he just likes being with the guys.

And it was a guys dinner and we just had good guys time. And so like the. I said it like, I voted for Obama, I voted for Clinton. But the idea that I could talk to them as freely as I felt this conversation was going is emblematic to me of why the Democrats lose the elections, because they just don’t feel that this is like a real person.

And I know it’s so weird to say that about Donald Trump, who I’ve said a jillion times is, you know, whiny little bitch. I mean, I could go through my greatest hits of, like, insults, but this was about getting past that and maybe seeing that if we met in person, we don’t hate each other as much. And we don’t. And I don’t. And I’m sorry, I’m not going to, like, pretend that’s a bad thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, it’s how you heal.

BILL MAHER: Even though he’s doing terrible things.

CHARLIE KIRK: I would say doing great things, but that’s, that’s a separate issue.

BILL MAHER: But, I mean, sending American citizens to foreign prisons.

CHARLIE KIRK: He didn’t do that. That was a one liner.

BILL MAHER: He set that a one liner. You’re so forgiving.

CHARLIE KIRK: I am. That’s. That’s that’s the Christ in me.

BILL MAHER: I know, but it’s Jesus.

CHARLIE KIRK: You need Jesus again, you’ll be more forgiving.

BILL MAHER: You wouldn’t have been forgiving if Obama said it.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, if so, just let’s speak. What. So what did Trump. Trump say? That the homegrown ones. You could also argue that if it’s an illegal alien. Homegrown. I don’t even want to get too far deep into it. Let’s just say you were. I don’t think we should ever entertain American citizens going to prisons abroad.

BILL MAHER: Great. Because, I mean, you’re a student of American history.

CHARLIE KIRK: I try, yeah. I don’t know who Eugene O’Neill is, but.

BILL MAHER: Well, that’s not history. That’s the arts, and that’s the 20th century. But, yes, I’m happy to fill the gaps in your knowledge.

CHARLIE KIRK: Thank you.

BILL MAHER: That’s a big one. You know, O’Neill’s big. I would not like.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, no. It’s like I.

BILL MAHER: He’s not like this. I’m a small guy, but. Okay, so “The Iceman Cometh.” Another big one. But Iceman, you can see it’s not recent, but I forget now what we’re talking about. It’s the pot. I blame the pot, Charlie. It’s always the pot. You’re right. It’s terrible. I’m going to quit tomorrow.

Cannabis and Perspective

CHARLIE KIRK: It sharpens your memory.

BILL MAHER: What do you think would happen if you smoke pot?

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, my goodness.

BILL MAHER: You never did, even as a kid. But what seemed just the. This is like sort of my version of the religion thing. Like, maybe you’re missing out on the big picture. The way I am with Christianity? Maybe. Except I’ve already been exposed to Christianity. And you’ve never been exposed to Rastafarianism or whatever my religion is.

CHARLIE KIRK: Only one of those has an afterlife.

BILL MAHER: But you could. I mean, don’t you think that it would be a great thing to see corners of your mind that you have never looked into?

CHARLIE KIRK: Tell me more. What do you mean by that? I’m not. It’s not a game. I want to like.

BILL MAHER: I know. I will tell you. I’m happy to tell you. I’ll put it this way. I’ve mentioned this before with potheads. I think on my show that when I have an important decision to make, I treat my mind the way Congress is designed. A bicameral institution. I will think about it sober and I will think about it stoned. And then if they agree, they can reconcile and present a bill and I will sign it.

CHARLIE KIRK: And there’s a reconciliation process.

BILL MAHER: But they both have to come agree on this because I just have a different perspective when I’m stoned. And it’s very often sharper and more insightful and better. You know, I mean, just editing, I know, like just writing in general, but I mean, I don’t do all my writing stoned. But like the final edit, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, you’re right, that should go.” Like, things I did not see sober, I will see stoned.

And, you know, you might get stoned and be like, “Oh, Jesus, what, are we kidding? Back from the dead?” No, I’m kidding. This is Sunday. So Sunday’s Easter. What are you going to do? Must be a big day. He is risen.

Easter and Faith

CHARLIE KIRK: He is risen indeed. Bill. We’re going to be celebrating the resurrection of the Lord.

BILL MAHER: Why do we say that in the present tense?

CHARLIE KIRK: Because it is a. It is a constant truth in our life.

BILL MAHER: “He is risen.” I always noticed that. That was interesting to me that it was.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a really important question, actually.

BILL MAHER: It is. Tell me.

The Metaphysics of Faith and Historical Christianity

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, because the fact that he has risen transcends time. It’s not just in the present sense. It’s that of all time, that promise is accessible to all of us. And so it’s a proclamation to all people. Because if you said he was risen, it’s like it’s just merely a historical event. It almost underplays the metaphysics of it.

BILL MAHER: I’m just always fascinated the way really, really fine intellectual minds employ themselves for the purpose of arguing things that are so inarguable. It’s almost like a challenge. Like I’m so smart that I can make this thing, which is so fucking stupid, seem like a real thing.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, it’s fine.

BILL MAHER: No, but you get where I’m coming from. I’m going to take something that is so anti-intellectual, even though I can argue like an intellect.

CHARLIE KIRK: However, you have to acknowledge, even the greatest minds of history have been mesmerized by the scriptures. Isaac Newton, Thomas Aquinas. Isaac Newton wrote more about biblical prophecy than even physics. And so there’s something about the scriptures that are intellectual that does push your limits. And that’s what I think is so beautiful about our faith, is it can be accessible to everyone, but also infinitely nourishing and exploration.

BILL MAHER: So why the – if there’s this other truth that’s beyond this meta, you know, this metaphysical truth, why so many different versions of it that only seem to cause wars?

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, Protestants and Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Mormon.

The Religious Wars of the Reformation Era

BILL MAHER: Someone asked me recently, like, you know, someone who doesn’t know history that well, and they’re like, “Bill, okay, so Columbus 1492 lands on America and we don’t really then have the first colony until 1607, Jamestown. So what happened in that century?”

Martin Luther at the beginning of that century said, “There’s an alternative to Catholicism.” 95 theses that were nailed on the door of Wittenberg in 1517. And for the next hundred years, they just fucking killed each other all over Europe about who was right about that. And that’s why it took a century after Columbus landed to go back, because they were preoccupied with killing each other over whether the Pope in Rome was the devil.

CHARLIE KIRK: Or is the Eucharist the literal body of Christ?

BILL MAHER: I mean, did his foreskin ascend to heaven with him, or was that left here because he was a Jew? I mean, there was just a lot of silly questions.

CHARLIE KIRK: There was a lot of debates.

BILL MAHER: Arianism, remember that for sure.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. Or dualism or modalism. I mean, how do we come to trinitarianism as a whole?

The Formation of Early Christianity

BILL MAHER: I find the first few centuries of Christianity the most fascinating. Well, because they were deciding on it.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah.

BILL MAHER: I mean, Christianity for you non-history majors. Christ dies in 33, of course. And then it wasn’t until three centuries later.

CHARLIE KIRK: Around Council of Nicaea.

BILL MAHER: Well, that’s even later. But the 330, I think, or maybe that was when the Emperor Constantine declared.

CHARLIE KIRK: He convened the council.

BILL MAHER: Right. Okay. So that’s when Christianity becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire. So it took 300 years.

CHARLIE KIRK: And that’s when the Nicene Creed was created.

BILL MAHER: And in those 300 years, there were…

CHARLIE KIRK: A ton of debates.

BILL MAHER: First it was like, you know, Christianity was just persecuted.

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, it was surviving the first hundred years.

BILL MAHER: “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church” was said by Tertullian in 202. So that’s 200 years into it, and they were still martyrs. You know, they were fed to the lions, that shit. And then slowly it catches on. The idea that it gets good. And the afterlife was very attractive to an empire that was like a lot of slaves. If you’re a slave, this is a good deal.

And so finally in 330, it becomes the official religion. And then you have the Church fathers, Ambrose, Augustine – they’re both Augustine, right – and Jerome. Augustine is writing in like 430, I think City of God. He’s writing in the City of Hippo. And, you know, just the way they formed the idea of the Church in those early centuries, you know, it was something that needed…

CHARLIE KIRK: What needed decisions to be made. Because when you – our answer would be, which I don’t think you’ll find overly persuasive – when you have something true, you have a lot of bad forces that try to pervert it. And you have to be able to meet, you have to refine it, you have to clarify it.

And I mean, the idea of the Trinity was one of the most important. One of those debates – again, you had dualism, modalism, Arianism. You had Gnosticism, which was a huge debate of the early Church. And it was concluded in Trinitarianism, which we would argue…

BILL MAHER: It’s just so much arguing about how many angels are on the head of a pin.

CHARLIE KIRK: The arguments were much more consequential than even like…

BILL MAHER: Yeah, I guess if you believe eschatology. You know, there’s an old saying in comedy: “Buy the premise, buy the bit.” If you believe the premise that he’s God and all the – then you care whether the foreskin went with him or not.

CHARLIE KIRK: The big debate was like, is Christ God? That was the big one. That was the biggest of them all. And it nearly split the church in five different parts. And the idea of the Trinity was eventually decided upon, which we believe to be true.

The Trinity Debate

BILL MAHER: I went to the Holy Land, and they have the Jesus there because they reenact the whole crucifixion. And so I interviewed Jesus and, you know, I hit him with that about like, you know, it’s supposed to be very proud. They’re very proud that they’re monotheistic. You know, like the pagan people. They have many gods, these heathens, these savages.

CHARLIE KIRK: The river, the sun.

BILL MAHER: Yes. From shithole countries, the corn, the dirt. Right. Crazy people with so many gods. And then you have the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, you can pray to the mother. I mean, it’s just a lot of people involved.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s one Godhead in three parts. The Trinity’s very close.

BILL MAHER: So this is what Jesus said.

CHARLIE KIRK: Oh, yeah, tell me what he said.

BILL MAHER: Yeah, he said – and this, like, stopped me in my tracks for a minute. Because it’s the kind of bullshit that makes you go, you know, that makes people go, “Oh.” And to me, it went, “Oh, no.” Okay. So he said, “It’s like ice.”

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s like water.

BILL MAHER: Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s in three parts.

BILL MAHER: Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Water vapor, water or ice. So I’m glad I didn’t use that one. You wouldn’t have liked it.

BILL MAHER: Well, Jesus already tried it.

CHARLIE KIRK: Did he say it in Aramaic?

BILL MAHER: But it’s a pretty good analogy.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, but that’s what we’d say. It’s the same thing in three different parts. Right.

BILL MAHER: But, you know, they did add the Holy Ghost, like, three centuries in because the Church needed another…

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, that’s not true.

BILL MAHER: Oh, it is true. There was no Holy Ghost in the beginning.

CHARLIE KIRK: In Matthew 4, Christ is baptized. And it says, “The Spirit came upon him.” The Father says, “It’s my Son, I am pleased.” And he is the Son. So you have all three parts of the Godhead right there.

BILL MAHER: The Holy Ghost is named there?

CHARLIE KIRK: The Spirit. It says, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon him.” Now it doesn’t use the Spirit…

BILL MAHER: Sounds like the Lord.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, then God the Father said, “This is my Son, in who I am pleased.” So three distinct parts of the Godhead. It’s the best picture of the Trinity we have. And then in the book…

BILL MAHER: So they were all in the same room at the same time?

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, in the river. Right. I mean, the scene. Right.

BILL MAHER: God the Father was…

CHARLIE KIRK: God the Father was audible, right?

BILL MAHER: Audible. Oh, so he was on Zoom.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, he was phoning it in. Christ was being baptized by John the Baptizer and the Spirit of the Lord…

BILL MAHER: Baptizer. John the Baptist.

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s actually Baptizer. Yeah.

BILL MAHER: That’s what they call him now. Yeah.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah.

BILL MAHER: Is that new?

CHARLIE KIRK: Got to keep up with the times.

BILL MAHER: I mean, is that new?

CHARLIE KIRK: It’s a fun, wonky theological…

BILL MAHER: Why did they change it?

CHARLIE KIRK: Because it was actually in the – again, this is like, what’s wrong with John the Baptist? It’s so insignificant because it actually – in the old Greek, it was a verb. It was the baptizer. The one. It’s completely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter.

BILL MAHER: It’s like new Coke. Stick with what works. You know what? It was great. John the Baptist. There’s nothing wrong with John the Baptist. It’s a great title.

CHARLIE KIRK: And then in Acts, it says, “The Spirit of the Lord came upon the disciples at Pentecost.”

Mutual Respect and Political Courage

BILL MAHER: Well, I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed this.

CHARLIE KIRK: Well, thank you.

BILL MAHER: I mean, again, I’m sure there’s something that I’m not asking.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’ve been a fan of yours for a while. We’re on different planets, obviously, on the spiritual, religious stuff. But when you spoke against the woke, that for me was a proving moment. And I have to say something, and this is 100% true. You had more moral courage than pastors that I know that went along with the woke crazy train. And you deserve credit for that. I appreciate it because it was of high cost.

BILL MAHER: Until we get rid of that shit, they’re never going to win another election.

CHARLIE KIRK: I agree. They don’t – they’re not going to take political advice from me.

BILL MAHER: No, but they might from me. They could not and they should not. The 10%. But that’s 10%.

CHARLIE KIRK: But they’re very loud.

BILL MAHER: They’re very loud. But that’s it. And I, you know, as FDR once said, “I welcome their hatred” because they’re just, first of all, they have no integrity. They don’t ever, like, present the full argument. They just cherry pick. I mean, everybody does it to everybody. So I’m not saying I’m unique here, but that is part of the problem of our discourse is that everybody just wants to forward their narrative. No one is really interested in the full truth. Just give me the truth. And that’s the crowd I’m going for.

Campus Culture and Free Speech

CHARLIE KIRK: You know, and to be honest, when I go to these campuses and we’re drawing these huge crowds, in some ways we’re benefiting from the ways that the old school comics would benefit on college campuses because we’re saying the stuff you’re not allowed to say. Like we are the rebellion type energy.

BILL MAHER: They must be so thirsty for it.

CHARLIE KIRK: Of course. And like the most…

BILL MAHER: The kids.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes.

BILL MAHER: It’s like innate that they want to be – here’s something that’s not politically correct.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes. And you think about it, it’s like you’re a guy on a college campus at any one of these tour stops we’re going to. Right. Boise State University of South Carolina, Oklahoma State University. And they are constantly in this bubble of if I say one wrong word, I could have my entire career ruined. If I say the wrong joke, if I laugh at the wrong thing, if I use the wrong pronoun. They’re living in a totalitarian environment, a cultural totalitarian one.

BILL MAHER: Okay, you’re going to have to stay a little more because I want to ask you about this because now you got me on colleges and, you know, I’ve been – that’s been one of my big…

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, we got to talk about this fucking…

The Universities as Ground Zero

BILL MAHER: That’s been one of my biggest targets, big time. I mean I was in my book, was in my special, I called them “the mouth of the river from which all the nonsense flows.”

CHARLIE KIRK: It is the Wuhan laboratory.

BILL MAHER: That was my woke.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah, I probably got it from you.

BILL MAHER: I did. I said “if ignorance is a disease, Harvard Yard is the Wuhan wet market.” That was my joke.

CHARLIE KIRK: I got. Now we could say Wuhan lab, but yeah, that’s right.

BILL MAHER: Okay. And Trump’s going after the colleges now.

CHARLIE KIRK: Which I fully support.

Trump’s Approach to Higher Education

BILL MAHER: Yeah, but as always with his shit, it’s not exactly legal the way he’s doing it. It’s coercive. I get, I am behind the feeling of it. I’m not sure this is the way to do it, but the feeling of it. Yes, they have become places that. And this is again one of your big bailiwicks, this is one of the places you really got to. I think this has helped you get where you are.

They have become places that are two things. Not really interested in teaching, just getting a point of view on the world into the kids heads, which is not the way it was when I went to college at all. And also just very anti Western civilization completely. And this is Western civilization. And you live in Western civilization. You’re soaking in it, you’re enjoying it.

All the things that make your life and especially the life of minorities and oppressed people better come from Western civilization. Rule of law, scientific inquiry, freedom of speech, democracy, all the things, women’s rights.

CHARLIE KIRK: Gay rights, all of it.

BILL MAHER: All of it is Western civilization. And the question is, how do you extirpate that from universities without, I mean, going after the research money? It has nothing to do with this.

The Problem with Modern Universities

CHARLIE KIRK: It does and it doesn’t. I mean, so first of all, you’re right. Let’s just start with our agreement. Colleges have become a place where they want everyone to look different but think the same. Their idea of diversity is we look at the yearbook photo and everyone has race diversity.

BILL MAHER: Everything has to look like Angelina Jolie’s Christmas card.

CHARLIE KIRK: But they all think as if they’re at the Democrat National Committee meeting. There’s no diversity of thought, there’s no heterodox opinion. They tried to get Western civilization taught at Stanford, and they removed it, they removed it from the core curriculum. Really, I’m going to be honest. These places have to be basically burned to the ground, metaphorically.

BILL MAHER: Okay, metaphorically.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah. Well, meaning, I mean, look, you have take Harvard, so you say the research money. First of all, they take 10 to 15% of that in overhead. Why does Harvard, with a $50 billion endowment, need $2 billion in research money?

BILL MAHER: Just ask Harvey the same question.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s a hedge fund with a college attached.

BILL MAHER: Right.

CHARLIE KIRK: That’s not a university. I mean, that’s something completely different. Stanford, $40 billion endowment. Yale, $35 billion endowment. And look, some of this research is awesome, and I got to agree with you, some of it. They should be on a case by case basis. But a lot of it, though, is this woke stuff that would take your breath away. I mean, research into transgender mice? I mean, US Taxpayer dollars funding that.

The Transgender Mice Correction

BILL MAHER: See, I called that out on my show. That was bullshit. It wasn’t transgender. See, that worries me about you, Charlie. You seem to have swallowed that one whole like a snake does a mouse, without looking into it. It was transgenic, mice.

CHARLIE KIRK: I’m sorry.

BILL MAHER: It was not, but it’s hugely different. Transgender. That’s just going along with what the mob thinks. It wasn’t. He got it wrong. And no one was around to tell him that he got it wrong. He just went with it. Transgender. It wasn’t transgender. It was transgenic. They were studying mice for health reasons. Serious cancer solving reasons. Nothing to do with transgender.

CHARLIE KIRK: So I stand corrected on that.

BILL MAHER: Okay, but.

CHARLIE KIRK: But a lot of these universities have superfluous research departments that are bloated and then go raise your own money for it is my position. If you want to go do this stuff, go raise your money.

Christianity and Government

BILL MAHER: No, of course. So as Christian as you are, you don’t want us to be the Christian United States.

CHARLIE KIRK: I want to see the body politic become Christian. But I want the Constitution to be our North Star.

BILL MAHER: Not by coercion.

CHARLIE KIRK: No. Because that’s not love. That’s force.

BILL MAHER: Okay.

CHARLIE KIRK: We, as Christians believe you should voluntarily use your agency, give your life to Christ.

BILL MAHER: And you think that someday we all will get on the train there?

CHARLIE KIRK: I don’t know if I’m optimistic or pessimist. I don’t know. It’s tough. The church rates are going down. I mean, we’re seeing a little bit of a plateauing there. Your side’s been winning, Bill, the last 20 years.

BILL MAHER: You know, you’re going to be tired of all the winning. That’s all I’m going to say.

CHARLIE KIRK: But are you cheering for those church traits to go down.

BILL MAHER: Yes.

CHARLIE KIRK: You think it would make the world a better place.

BILL MAHER: I do.

CHARLIE KIRK: Has it made Europe better?

Western Civilization and Christian Inheritance

BILL MAHER: The idea that you think we need Christianity as the pillar here to hold up this edifice? That I can’t agree with, but I.

CHARLIE KIRK: Think you could agree that there’s a Christian inheritance that is unique. And that’s Tom Holland’s argument, who’s an atheist.

BILL MAHER: That’s true.

CHARLIE KIRK: And that there’s something we’ve inherited.

BILL MAHER: Well, there’s no. Well, what we do know is that the ideas of the Enlightenment were ideas from people who were Christian. I mean, obviously Rousseau and John Locke and the people here in America was very Christian. Yeah, Christian. I mean, Christianity to varying degrees. Again, Deism, again. Thomas Jefferson taking Jesus out of his miracles, out of the Bible. So there was. But that’s the basic tradition. It is a Western tradition that we seem to have to always apologize for. I’m sorry.

CHARLIE KIRK: No, no, no, I’m not.

BILL MAHER: No, I’m joking.

CHARLIE KIRK: But no. If America was 81% Christian or 81% Islamic, what’s a better country?

BILL MAHER: Yes. According to the ideals I believe in. If you think faith. I know you do. Is the most important thing. But I happen to think freedom is the most important thing. Personal liberty, again, human rights, rule of law, scientific inquiry, democracy, freedom of speech. All these things which are absent much more in those societies than the society I live in. Totally. All right, Charlie. Okay, Charlie.

Wrapping Up

CHARLIE KIRK: Bill, thank you.

BILL MAHER: That was a real pleasure. Real fun.

CHARLIE KIRK: Thank you.

BILL MAHER: Ok. Tell your friends.

CHARLIE KIRK: Happy Easter, Bill.

BILL MAHER: Happy Easter. He is risen.

CHARLIE KIRK: He is risen indeed.

BILL MAHER: He is risen.

CHARLIE KIRK: Thank you for having me.

BILL MAHER: Oh, I see. Pleasure. We wanted to do it for a while.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yeah.

BILL MAHER: And I know you wanted to do this before real time.

CHARLIE KIRK: Yes.

BILL MAHER: But now that we did this, you could do real.

CHARLIE KIRK: I would love to. I wanted to get to know you.

BILL MAHER: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was better this way first. And I watch your show almost every week.

Related Posts

• Scott Ritter: Full-Scale War as Iran Attacks All U.S. Targets (Transcript)
• Seyed M. Marandi: Israel & U.S. Launch Surprise Attack on Iran (Transcript)
• Joe Rogan Podcast: #2461 w/ Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (Transcript)
• Tucker Carlson Show: w/ Catherine Fitts on Control Grid, Banks’ Role in War (Transcript)
• Megyn Kelly Show: w/ Tucker Carlson on Epstein, Iran, America’s Gender Divide (Transcript)