Transcript: Epstein Survivor Lisa Phillips on The Shade Room Podcast

I didn’t really think that much of it.

So now we’re in the bedroom, and I was told that I have to do this massage. And I said to the other girl, “What’s going on?” And she was like, “Oh, you know, Jeffrey kind of likes these massages. You just have to do it.”

And I just went back and forth with her a little bit on that, but I ended up disagreeing and just going with her. And I left that room and walked over to his room. And we opened the door, we walked in, and he was naked on a massage table and face down.

THEMBI MAWEMA: What did you think at that moment when you walk into this room and you see him naked on the massage table? What goes through your mind?

LISA PHILLIPS: It was like, “Oh, sh*t.” You know, “What are we doing here?” Just everything was really odd. But I didn’t feel in any danger. I just thought, “Okay, maybe I have to do this creepy massage.” It hadn’t shifted yet.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: So it was an actual massage.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

The Abuse

LISA PHILLIPS: And, you know, real massage techniques. So it did start off as a massage. And then things shifted, and he went a little dark with the way that he was speaking to me and her and asked weird questions, you know, like, “Do you have a boyfriend?” And, you know, while you have a massage? Yes. Weird stuff.

You know, I was in my early 20s. I wasn’t a teenager, you know, but I was in my early 20s, you know, off the plane from Belgium. I just wasn’t really aware of these types of things.

But long story short, he abused me and the other girl that evening. And, you know, I just kind of ran out of there with her and went back to that room and kind of just looked at the ceiling all night and was just like, “What the f* is going on? What’s happening?” And she didn’t really have that many answers for me.

THEMBI MAWEMA: I feel like, had she been there before? Through this?

LISA PHILLIPS: I didn’t know at the time. She was maybe 22. She was young, too. And, I mean, as we know now who Jeffrey is, this is kind of what he did.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Right, right.

LISA PHILLIPS: But back then, I just didn’t really understand what was going on. I never blamed her. I just thought that I blamed myself. And, “I’m in this situation. Why did I come here? And why did I agree to that?” I just was scared.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah.

LISA PHILLIPS: You know, and I didn’t really have anyone to protect me. And so it was an odd situation.

THEMBI MAWEMA: When you say abused, do you feel comfortable? What was that exactly? Was it more mental? Was it physical? Was it sexual?

LISA PHILLIPS: Physical and sexual abuse. Jeffrey had a way of abusing girls. It was a massage that turned into abuse, and he liked to use objects and things. A lot of people aren’t aware that these serial predators obviously aren’t having sex with hundreds of girls, you know, and they have to protect themselves as well.

So it’s not always penetrative things. So it’s other things that they’ll do. And are you aware of Larry Nassar, the medical doctor for the gymnasts? Very eerily, because I have a podcast as well, I was interviewing others. It’s a very similar type of abuse with objects and fingers, and I think it’s called digital rape.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: That’s the way he abused most of his victims.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Oh, my goodness.

LISA PHILLIPS: Both cases, both these men were very similar in that way. So when it comes to serial predators, it’s a control thing, and they get off on that whole thing of seeing the fear in your eyes.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah.

LISA PHILLIPS: So to explain that, it’s not always just what you think of as rape.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So there was someone who testified in his case that, you know, Ghislaine taught them how to do the massage. Did you encounter her at any point?

LISA PHILLIPS: She wasn’t on the island. I met her later on. But they were actual massages. I mean, he really did like to have massages. And there were real masseuses there, as we know, who turned into sex slaves for the rich and powerful. So to answer your question, yes, they were actual massages that just went dark at some point.

Escaping the Island

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you go back to the room, you’re with your friend, and what happens from there?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I just stayed up all night. I was scared. I was trapped on an island. I didn’t know how to get off the island. I don’t remember. This is 20 years later. So I was just scared, and I just waited until the boat arrived in the morning, and we ran quickly and got on the boat and we left.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you didn’t even see them at all after that?

LISA PHILLIPS: Never saw him again on that island.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Did you see your friend ever again?

LISA PHILLIPS: Oh, she went with me. Yeah. Back to the photo shoot. Finished up the photo shoot for a couple more days, went back to New York, and, yeah, she was a model that was with my model agency at the time. So I did see her, but I never really got any answers from her back then.

And most of the young models or actresses and young women during that time didn’t talk about it really. I mean, maybe there were some, like, you know, whispers. We never really went further than that because, you know, I think victims, they blame themselves, first of all, and there’s a lot of shame. And this is a very different time where we don’t speak about those things then.

Breaking the Silence

THEMBI MAWEMA: So at what point did you feel comfortable to start talking about your experience?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, this happened in 2000.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Right.

LISA PHILLIPS: And I never felt comfortable during those years. You know, I got married, had kids, moved on. And it wasn’t until Jeffrey died in 2019. So this is 19 years later.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Wow.

LISA PHILLIPS: When I even started thinking about what happened to me back then.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Had you blocked it off?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, you kind of suppress it. You don’t think about it. But Jeffrey got in trouble. 2004, 2005 was a Vanity Fair article. There were the kids in Florida in 2008. So I started thinking, starting to understand what kind of monster he was and understand the whole situation of what was really going on, but not an understanding like I do today. And that’s probably not even all of it.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you’ve talked about how after you left the island, at some point, he reeled you back in. Can you talk about that a little bit?

The Aftermath and Continued Manipulation

LISA PHILLIPS: Yeah. So after I got back to New York, I continued working as a model. I did feel a little bit more damaged. I felt damaged after that. So I stopped dating and I started hanging out more on the social scene, and I started partying a little more and not really feeling that great about myself and very confused, but I couldn’t talk to anyone about it.

And then you have to understand with Jeffrey Epstein, this is an operation going on. So he has secretaries that are working for him, and they would call me profusely. They would call me all the time. “Jeffrey thought you were amazing. Jeffrey thought you were really powerful. Jeffrey wants to help you out,” all these things to try to reel me back in.

I found out later why he wanted to reel me back in. It’s because I had seen important people on the island. But at that time, I didn’t understand why he was calling me. They were calling me all the time.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Had you shared your contact information, or is this something they obtained on their own?

LISA PHILLIPS: That’s a good question. No one’s ever asked me that. How did he get my contact information?

THEMBI MAWEMA: So it was just out of nowhere. You were just getting these phone calls.

LISA PHILLIPS: I’m not quite sure exactly how he got my contact information to begin with. That’s not easy to find, though.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Especially not at that time either. Without social media, things are sort of like to be calling you, getting your phone number and all this stuff.

LISA PHILLIPS: I’m sure it was from the other girl.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah.

Using Ambition as Control

LISA PHILLIPS: And so, yeah, it was about four months went by, and then one day Jeffrey called me and he said, “Hey, Lisa, it’s Jeffrey. I remember what you told me on the island, that your main goal was to become a Ford model.” And I said, “Yeah.” And he was like, “Well, I’m really great friends with Katie Ford and she owns the Ford Modeling Agency.” I’m like, “I know.”

And he’s like, “Well, I told her about you and she would love to meet with you.” And so to my thinking at the time, I was just like, wow, maybe he’s not a bad guy.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Maybe.

LISA PHILLIPS: Maybe I’m overreacting. Maybe he wants to help me. He probably is the good guy like the other girls said he was.

THEMBI MAWEMA: He used your ambition to control you, in a sense.

LISA PHILLIPS: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s what I had told him on the island. That was my main goal. And he got me in that way because that week I went to go meet with Katie Ford at Ford Models beautiful office in Soho on Green Street. It was a big dream of mine at the time, is what I was working towards. And I met with Katie and she signed me up and I became a Ford model.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Wow. Wow. So at that time, are you thinking he made my dreams come true, I should stay in contact, or was that he made my dreams come through, thank you, and you move on? Did you continue on a connection with him at that point?

LISA PHILLIPS: No, not yet. I mean, naively, I thought, yeah, you did something bad to me. You’re doing something nice for me.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Thank you.

LISA PHILLIPS: That was going to be the end of it. Just stupidly thinking that way. When you get involved with somebody like that, they don’t let you out of the circle. So, I mean, I know this now, mind you, I didn’t know this then. I became a Ford Model.

But now we’re finding out that Ford Models had a lot to do with Jeffrey Epstein with the exchange of girls back and forth. Many model agencies did at that time. I only found that out really recently, in the last year. I didn’t even put that together until more recently.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Do you know from what you know, if that was an active partnership in the sense of exchanging or really business? Just business. Is that clear to you at this time?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I don’t know. I mean, these girls are teenagers and early 20s, and this is a man in his 40s, so I don’t think any person would think that it’s business. Right? I mean, he didn’t own an agency. He didn’t really own Victoria’s Secret. It was just something. I don’t know why grown women were sending young girls to him and other men, obviously, but I’m finding out a lot more now.

Epstein’s Death and Breaking the Silence

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay, so he passed away, and you see that on TV. And how does that impact you at that point?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, when he passed away, it was a lot for me because I didn’t really understand my relationship with him. I didn’t really think about any type of abuse at that time. I just thought about, well, I didn’t think about anything. Leave it at that. Did not want to think about anything.

When he died, I just knew there was something. My body was telling me there was something. I was having emotional breakdown. And at that time, there were other women that were speaking out, Virginia Giuffre and other survivors of Epstein. And so I just got in contact with them and I just wanted to start understanding. I started reaching out to many girls that I knew back then, at the time, what was going on, what was really happening.

It took a while to really understand what was going on because women now are married, they have kids, they want to protect their, or they don’t want, a lot of them didn’t even want to think about what happened to them. So you have many that stay silent that I know very dear to me, women now that are silent. And there are ones that want to speak out, and they have maybe supportive partners who are like, “Yeah, speak out. You need to do this. It’s something that happened to you. You need to own it.”

So I was just coming from that point of view. I didn’t really have a supportive family. And the partner during that time who was sitting next to me when I saw the news that he had died on the TV, right, and he saw me run into the room, and I just, for days, I just couldn’t understand what was going on.

And finally I had said to him, “I’m really ready to talk to you and tell you what happened to me back then.” And it was really hard for me to even, because it was the first time I was going to say something about it. I’m getting emotional because it was very emotional back then. And he said to me, “I don’t want to hear about it.”

And I was like, “Well, what?” And it was hard for me because when you’re dealing with these type of abuse and it’s hard for you to speak out, but it’s also hard for people. Maybe they’re dealing with abuse of their own or they don’t want to support you. So sorry.

THEMBI MAWEMA: It’s okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: So it was very, very difficult for me to start the process of figuring what the f* happened to me back then. Why did he abuse me like that on the island? And why did he reel me back in?

And there was a young woman who started speaking out, and she’s the woman who passed away recently. She took her own life.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Virginia.

LISA PHILLIPS: Her memoir just came out. And if you read that memoir, you will understand why people who go through these types of things have a hard time dealing with their shame or their just being understood and seen about it. So you suppress it and you don’t talk about it.

The Struggle for Support

THEMBI MAWEMA: Did you try to talk about, so you try to talk to your partner about this. He shuts you down at that point. Does that empower you to talk about it to someone else? Does it make you feel more ashamed to where you stayed silent even longer?

LISA PHILLIPS: The emotion comes from the fact of no support. And we’ll get into that why that’s later. That’s so important to me with my podcast and with Capitol Hill. But what I was going through, to answer your question, was I just didn’t have any support.

The partner who I had given up my life for, my job, to move in, blend our families here in Los Angeles, was basically telling me, “Deal with it on your own. I don’t care about you. I don’t care about you.” And I realized that. And so I was seeking people who understood what was going on. And really, those were just the other survivors of Epstein, which there were hundreds of them.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Had you talked to anyone else about it up until that point?

LISA PHILLIPS: Girlfriends that knew him back then, but still, these are successful women who don’t really want to go there. I was looking for the ones who, a lot of the ones from Florida that were underage during the time came from a different background in Florida. That was the relationship with Ghislaine and him, these underage girls that were mostly white and blonde and things, and they were very different from the ambitious young women in New York that were 18 to 24.

Impact on Relationships

THEMBI MAWEMA: I was going to ask how that affects your dating life and even friendships because on one hand, that was a close friend. I don’t know if she was close, but it was a friend of yours who took you to the island. And even though you don’t blame her for it, it’s still an aspect of this is my friend and I went to this island with. So how has that impacted you with friendships and even romantic relationships?

LISA PHILLIPS: That’s a good question. I’ve really been asked that before. She was an associate, model, friend back then, and I was pretty angry of what she had done. But I came to understand later that’s how Jeffrey operated.

So the way he operated was he got these young girls into his orbit and they brought the other friends in. It was a brilliant, masterful scheme that people need to understand. I don’t blame her for what she did because also she was probably very confused that this is a man who got her, she was Polish, got her visa to work in the United States, introduced her to her husband, probably helped her out with the agencies. He helps these women out. Mind you, he helped me out.

So I also started feeling that maybe he’s not a bad person in my mind. It’s confusing to me as well. They were friends of mine who met him through me during those years. So we all don’t blame each other. There’s many layers of people who’ve met each other before me and after me. We don’t blame each other because we didn’t know better until now. We know what’s going on.

But back then, we kind of didn’t really understand, and we also only thought it was just me. A lot of times you think it’s just you. You don’t think he’s doing the same thing to others.

The Recruitment System

THEMBI MAWEMA: Did he or anyone else in his orbit ever try to use you to recruit other women? Actively, outside of just being around your friends and happening to be in the same room, but actively, bring women to him?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, there were actual recruiters that worked for him, and there were women in the office who were the ones who called the girls. I think the younger girls were just bringing their friends or people that they knew because they would say, “Oh, you got into NYU. Who helped you?” “So and so helped me.” “Oh, wow, you got an art studio. Who helped you?” “Oh, he helped me.”

So people wanted to meet him. That’s a very confusing part about Epstein, but that’s kind of how he operated, was that the friends brought other friends. He would call me up and say, “Oh, bring some friends. I’m having a party.” And then I would show up with six girlfriends that were models and go to his house, and we’d all walk into this room, and there was all these old men, and okay, this is not really a party. We didn’t, we were just thinking, okay, this is weird.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Were you nervous to take any of your friends to any of those parties, or did you kind of disassociate at that time?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, that’s probably what I did. Probably. I did a lot of disassociating back then, but I didn’t see my friends being brought into a room or had anything done to them at those parties. I didn’t really think anything of it. And then I was also a model where the owners of agencies were also taking you to parties and charity events. And there were always these young girls and older men. So it was something I just thought was maybe normal back then.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah.

LISA PHILLIPS: That was a common thing you saw.

The Prince on the Island

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah. I mean, even today, to some degree, you could still see younger women, older men. So I can understand that for sure. So at the time you were reeled back in, right? You said you feel as though it’s because you saw some important people on the island. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Who you saw or what you saw? What was that specifically?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, remember I told you when I was sitting at dinner that I had told him. So I have very interesting childhood. You know, I’ve spent a lot of time in Europe, and, you know, I was very cultured. And, you know, someone, his sophistication like that. Actually, his partner, Ghislaine, was from Oxford.

So when I said that the person that was on the island that day was from England and he was a prince. So I guess a little showboating to be like, oh, you want to meet a prince? And so when I met him, it was very brief, but I also didn’t think much of it because I’m more American, even though I lived in Europe and we don’t really care about the…

THEMBI MAWEMA: Prince in the States. You know what I mean?

LISA PHILLIPS: It wasn’t like a big deal to me. But after I had gotten back, after I had went back home, my girlfriend at the time, who had a relationship with him that was very different from mine, had also been abused by the same person that I saw there.

And so when you see these kinds of things, you have to stay silent about them, and you can’t be off frolicking around talking to people, so they keep you kind of close. So I didn’t really understand why I wasn’t really able to break away so much or kind of say no to him without even getting upset. I understand it now.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah.

LISA PHILLIPS: I didn’t understand then.

THEMBI MAWEMA: I know, and I don’t know if you can say this, but I know Prince Andrew has been attached to Jeffrey. Was that the prince you saw or can you not confirm that?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, yeah, it was. I mean, I’ve already said it.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: He was. The reason why I spoke out originally was because Virginia spoke out in 2019. She was making allegations about him and Jeffrey had died. So I felt safe enough to be like, well, she’s telling the truth. So I need to start speaking up.

I naively was thinking, you know, that I wanted to support Virginia and the other girls. I wasn’t quite ready yet to speak about my story. That kind of took a couple years to get there.

Understanding Trafficking

THEMBI MAWEMA: All right, so when people hear the word trafficking, there’s a very specific thought for a lot of people that comes to mind. You know, the more stereotypical movie type, girls trapped in a house or cage with the macho man outside and, you know, being sold. That’s what’s like for a lot of people. That’s what comes to mind.

But you’ve talked about how in your experience, it included, you know, flying you to different places to meet, you know, whether it’s a major director or something of the sort. So can you talk a little bit about how that is trafficking? It’s not the traditional way of how people understand what trafficking to be. But can you speak a little bit about why that is trafficking?

LISA PHILLIPS: Trafficking, when it comes to Epstein, in my opinion, is why he had this ring. I didn’t understand that. I didn’t understand that back then. I’m only starting to understand it now as I was deposed for cases and I was telling my story because I had to tell it. It’s not because I wanted to tell it.

I never sought to be this person outing anybody or speaking out about my story. It’s very difficult, as you can see. Still, it’s very difficult for me to talk about for a number of reasons. But the trafficking thing is a hard thing to, I mean, it’s a hard thing to understand. I’ll try to explain it the way that I have seen it or that I’ve been told how it happened to me and other girls were involved in this web.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So obviously at the time, you didn’t even understand yourself that that was trafficking.

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I wasn’t thinking I was trafficked. Not at all. I was thinking I’m getting an opportunity. Here I am, I go to NYU, I’m taking acting classes. I’m with a top modeling agency and a top acting agency. If someone says, hey, I have an audition for you that you’re right for, you’d be like, yes. Wouldn’t you go? If it’s a big director that you know who it is, nobody would say no.

So when he would say to me, you know, I know so and so in Los Angeles, who’s, you know, shooting this big film, they’re in pre-production, they’re casting, and you’re the right type, I would say, okay, I want to go. And so I would fly to Los Angeles, I would do a casting. I mean, sorry, I would do an audition and fly home.

And I would think that, you would think that that was just a normal thing because many people in the business did that. And I didn’t find out until 20 years later that other girls that we started speaking out, they were sent to the same person.

It wasn’t necessarily for me, let’s say, because I was a model and actress, let’s say someone’s interest in, you’re an artist, you know, and you’re a painter. So this is a high profile person who could help you. He would introduce that person to him, and later on you’re called a couple days later to go meet with them.

So that person is excited that this person wants to go meet with them. They go to meet with them and then there’s assault or something that happens, or they’re, you know, you’re not aware that you’re supposed to go and meet somebody for a particular reason, but the men are aware that you’re being sent.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So he used real opportunities essentially to, as part of this trafficking network.

LISA PHILLIPS: There you go, you hit it on the nail. So whatever the girl’s interested in, it was a real opportunity that they were sent for, where they’re thinking as an opportunity.

How the Network Operated

THEMBI MAWEMA: So how did these powerful figures know that, for lack of a better word, these were Epstein’s girls? Right? Do you know what exactly or how the organization worked to where they’re aware, you know, this is someone who’s come in from Epstein, versus this is someone who’s just coming in because she’s on the schedule for the day via this other legitimate way versus via Epstein?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I mean, I’ve learned that just because you’re a powerful person and a girl from Epstein sent you doesn’t mean that person’s aware of it. They have people that are handling their appointments and schedules. So Jeffrey had women that were handling his appointments and schedules.

So they’re communicating with each other, but they’re very much aware of who’s sending you, because they know if your acting agency is sending you, your modeling agency sending you, your manager sending you, or Jeffrey’s sending you. So they’re aware of who.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay. So they, you know, in your, whether it’s your experience or the people you’ve spoken to, you get to this audition or this meeting or, you know, whatever it may be, what happens then?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, the auditions don’t look any different, really, from a lot of the auditions I had from my own agents. Because you were hit on sometimes through your legit agency. But nine times out of ten, if Jeffrey sent you for an audition or for casting or things like that, usually you’re hit on in a more aggressive way.

Usually you’re asked to dinner so you’re alone with him. There were things that were happening where I kept thinking, gosh, why do I keep getting hit on or assaulted? You know, and just in my mind for those many years, just thinking it was like, there’s some bad men to stay away from them.

I didn’t realize until later on when I started connecting the dots. When I was sent for a handful, it was only a handful. It wasn’t like it was 20. So a handful of auditions. Those men were also being sent maybe eight or ten others.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Wow. Were you ever abused by any of these men?

LISA PHILLIPS: Absolutely.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So it continued at, you know.

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, back then, I didn’t. A couple times. One time, there was an abusive situation.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And you’ve talked about how for most victims, a lot of it wasn’t sex. So they don’t connect that to being abuse.

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I was talking about serial predators who are seeing six to eight girls a day.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: It all can’t be sex. When you’re sent to a director, they usually want sex. I had a couple bad experiences as a young actress. I have an NDA with one of them, so I can’t really say the other situation and then finding out later. You know, my model agency had a lot to do with it as well.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Did you ever try sue your modeling agent? How does that work? How do you hold your modeling agency accountable?

LISA PHILLIPS: What was the call when they make you come?

THEMBI MAWEMA: Subpoena.

LISA PHILLIPS: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. So a lot of these cases were because I was subpoenaed or deposed for, and I had to be honest and say what happened to me. This was never on my own saying that I’m going to go after these men. I’ve never wanted to, or go after the owners of my agencies. I’m ready to move on with my life. That wasn’t really my angle. It just happened to come out that way.

Taking Power Back at Capitol Hill

THEMBI MAWEMA: So we flash forward right to modern day. At some point, Jeffrey’s arrested, they go through the trial, Ghislaine’s sent to jail. Modern day, the government says they won’t release the list, the client list, for the sanity of the survivors.

And you and, you know, some other survivors make a powerful stance and go to Capitol Hill and basically say, well, if y’all aren’t going to release the list, we’re going to release our own list with what we saw and who we know. So can you talk a little bit more about that? Very powerful, by the way.

LISA PHILLIPS: Thank you, thank you, thank you. It did feel very powerful. I think in that moment for me, it was just about taking my power back. I felt so helpless for so many years. I felt confused and isolated and really kind of getting angry standing there listening to these young girls, their experience when they were young girls, and a lot of them were really dark.

And we’re kind of all aware because there’s hundreds of us, we all kind of talk amongst each other and we kind of connect the dots a little bit. And we have a list of names of people that we saw. And I mean, Virginia Giuffre has a long list of names that she was abused.

And I don’t think it’s our main goal as survivors to out these men. I mean, we’re not foolish and we understand they’re very powerful men and we understand they’re probably going to get away with everything.

What we were trying to say was, is that, you know, the DOJ has a responsibility to release people that were involved and that enabled Epstein and this very powerful and dark and disturbing sex trafficking ring. I mean, that is the truth. J.P. Morgan funded it, admitted to it, settled on it.

So we’re aware of the fact that and Jeffrey recorded everything. There’s flight logs, there’s mounds of information out there. And they know. So we get really upset why they’re keeping it so much of a dark secret. It’s upsetting to us.

THEMBI MAWEMA: What’s the current status of you guys list? Is there a reason you haven’t?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, that’s the thing. A lot of people think that I was going to say, or, you know, other people have stepped up and said they were going to release this list. I mean, I don’t know if there was a client list. I mean, there were people who were benefiting and profiting off of Epstein and the FBI and the government has all the information.

It’s not my job or these survivors job to stand up there and read off a list of men. It’s never going to happen. So what I was saying was I was talking to survivors out there that you don’t have to be ashamed anymore. And you can own your story and you can speak out, you can join us.

We can get more powerful together and we can start pushing for things to happen. We do have things in store that we are, you know, trying to create change and make things happen, make things happen. But we’re not the ones that are going to stand there and read off some list. We’re just not going to do that. So I think people got very confused about that.

THEMBI MAWEMA: I took it as that, you know, I took it as if you’re not going to release the list, we’re going to release, you know, our own list with what we know.

The Power of Speaking Out

LISA PHILLIPS: Politics is theatrics, really. And it’s like, you want to us. Yeah, you know what I mean? It was like, we’re going to do this little dance with you because we want to take our power back. We don’t want to sit there like little victims. You know, we’re grown women now and we do have the power to make changes.

Maybe not to hold these particular men accountable, but it angers me that there’s only a woman in jail.

THEMBI MAWEMA: There has been talks about, you know, so Ghislaine, she’s in jail, but people say it’s like a vacation jail. And she was sentenced to 20 years for sex trafficking. There has been conversation about potentially pardoning her. Does that trigger you in any way or affect you in any way?

LISA PHILLIPS: Of course it does. I have kids that age, you know, they’re the children. So I don’t know what it is, what the responsibility that I have. I’ve always felt that I have. It’s just I want to protect them, you know, these kids.

And just listening to these women now speak about what happened to them. A lot of them were raped. A lot of them, he took their virginity. Like, this is some serious things that were going on here. This isn’t just like a creepy little massage. These kids have major, sorry, these women, now we have major trauma. You know, I can see it. And it really deeply affects them. As you see someone like Virginia Giuffre taking her own life. This is stuff that, this is very important.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Do you believe she took her own life?

Understanding the Cycle of Abuse

LISA PHILLIPS: Absolutely. Of course she did. The cycle of abuse. She was abused as a child by her own father creating these conspiracy theories that, you know, someone’s running around Australia trying to kill people. No, there’s something that’s very real called the cycle of abuse.

And when you’ve been abused, you feel worthless, and you sometimes have people in your life who don’t support you and make you feel more worthless. Anyone who’s gone through trauma as a child, as a young person, or any time in their life, you have to realize that you have a feeling about yourself. That’s a sense of worthlessness and shame. That’s what the abuser puts on you.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Have you ever had thoughts about harming yourself?

LISA PHILLIPS: Never. No. No. I mean, never. I just don’t come. I’m surprised. I don’t, you know. But I’ve always been very healthy person. I feel like I’ve also been caught in the cycle of abuse as well, you know, with my husband and then a few years ago with another boyfriend.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Abuse you.

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I didn’t choose well after this. I didn’t choose well. You know, I didn’t get the healing and the therapy that I needed. I suppressed it. When we suppress things, it’s going to come out in other ways. You know what I mean? I’ve had major therapy over the last couple years, so I was caught in that, too.

And so I understand. Virginia, remember, Virginia is the reason why I spoke out originally in 2019, and I believe she was the one I saw on the island when I first went there. I want to support her story. And I know that she had the cycle of abuse from childhood with Epstein and Ghislaine, many other powerful men.

And unfortunately, she chose a husband who was supposed to protect her, who also, towards the end of her life, she was beat up by him. We all saw the pictures. So she was trapped and she didn’t feel like she could get out of it. She’s a powerful woman for, wow, like, taking on these men. It took a toll on her. But she was powerful. She was like, I need to say something. I need to do something to bring this down, because so many people tried to.

And she was the most effective. And she was the reason why I started speaking out. But I sympathize. I mean, I empathize with her because I have also been through that type of cycle.

Repeating Patterns of Abuse

THEMBI MAWEMA: So when it comes to even your cycle, I read you talking about how you met someone you thought you were in love with, and they tried to abuse you in the same way Jeffrey did.

LISA PHILLIPS: Oh, boy. You didn’t do your research. That was the reason why I started the podcast.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

LISA PHILLIPS: A lot of people think I started this podcast because of what happened to me years ago with Epstein, but it’s really because I started speaking out. I was on documentaries and took me a little bit of time to speak out. I was really sticking up for the other girls because they were these powerful men that were in headlines, and I was kind of not really ready to talk about mine. It came a little bit later.

But to answer your question, I was in a relationship with a man that I was deeply in love with. And that’s when I started speaking out in 2019. And he was not supportive. And I just felt so much worthless with this man. Didn’t make me feel beautiful or I just didn’t feel like, you know, I was anything for him. And I wanted a man in my life that was more like a friend and someone I could talk to.

And I was on this Lifetime documentary and a man from Boston. Many men actually reached out to me. I don’t know how topic matter. I don’t know why you’d find someone like me attractive, you know, when you’re speaking out about this kind of thing. But I got a lot of mail.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Interesting.

LISA PHILLIPS: But this one man in particular, he was into commercial real estate, and he was successful, and he had a lot of pain from his childhood. I think he had been abused. Well, we just became really great friends, and we had a friendship. It wasn’t the love of my life. It wasn’t really an attraction. It was more just a great friendship, I thought.

So I knew him for about five months, and it was during the pandemic, and I moved myself and my boys to Boston for a few months just to be close and get to know this man. And I’d known him for about five or six months, and on the night that we were going to be intimate, you know, I never talked about this, but this man wanted to abuse me in the same way that I had been telling him.

You know, it’s just like, it broke me because, why am I so emotional? That broke me because I was just like, are you freaking kidding me here? Like, this is man I trust. You’re my friend. And he just wanted to do the exact same thing that had happened to me on that island. And I just thought I was sick. Like, you’re sick. You’re a sadist.

And, you know, it was tough. It was just tough because I just felt like, am I fooled again? Am I that stupid? He wasn’t right. And I thought it was kind of messed up that he wanted to do those things with me. And so instead of being loving with me and he didn’t know how to be loving with me. And so I just, that kind of broke me. And that was three years ago. And I didn’t date, you know, after that. I just fell into this, like, why can’t I meet a good guy?

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you confided in him.

LISA PHILLIPS: Oh, yeah, for five months.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And used that against you?

LISA PHILLIPS: My best friend for five months.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Wow.

LISA PHILLIPS: You know, and I thought, okay, well, I’m not so attracted to this man, but, like, maybe we’ll be together. And, you know, we were really forming a relationship to be together. It wasn’t the type of relationship that, you know, most women want. Like you want more of a passionate thing. But I just, I like the friendship that I had. And I did have a deep friendship with him. Fortunately, he was religious. He was a good Christian man, bull.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Christian man and all.

LISA PHILLIPS: The man had some demons, but that’s what he wanted me to do with him. But I wasn’t the one to do those things with him. Yeah, I had so much trauma from my early years. I wasn’t willing to do those things.

THEMBI MAWEMA: That he wanted, which is what the things he wanted.

LISA PHILLIPS: I mean, probably normal things for guys listening, but like sex toys and threesomes and things like that. That’s how I’ve been abused. I was looking for that in a man I wanted, like regular.

The Journey to Healing

THEMBI MAWEMA: So how do you, what’s healing like for you? Because you had this situation 20 plus years ago, continues to an extent within your career, you meet men who, you know, abuse you as well. So what does healing look like for you? And are you, do you feel like you’re healing well?

LISA PHILLIPS: I mean, I’m not the type to always blame the men. I know they have their own separate issues. I also chose them. I started to realize that, you know, I chose a man who didn’t love me the way that I needed. And then I chose a man who, you know, was sadistic.

And I just had this realization I need to take a step back and take some time and just really heal and really go deep into therapy. So that’s what I did over the last few years. And I went deep into EMDR therapy, which is what, it’s intense. I did it. I still do twice a week, two hours each day. It’s using the lights back and forth. Lights shine in your eyes. You go back and forth into your memory, memory, memory.

You take those memories and you work on them, and then you put them in a safe place. And I had to go back into childhood, back into my divorce, back into these back to back, you know, difficult relationships, and start to really understand what were my boundaries now. Like, what was I doing to attract these men or to be vulnerable to these types of men.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Do you have any answers to that?

LISA PHILLIPS: I really wanted to, really. I feel like I have the sweet personality that people can take advantage of easily. And I probably am a little naive just because I was raised, you know, my parents are still together, and I was raised in Europe. I didn’t have, really, maybe that toughness. You know, I’m just making excuses, says, I don’t know what was wrong with me.

A lot of us have trauma that we haven’t dealt with. I just hadn’t dealt with all that trauma. So I just said, you know, I’m going to take a couple years, which I did, and just didn’t date and just dealt with the deep and the darker stuff that I needed to deal with. So that’s what I did. I just focused on my kids.

And then I was, you know, I’d been in the modeling industry since I was 16 years old. I was like, I don’t want to be in this business anymore. Lisa. A little more than a year ago, I was like, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? Get out of this business. You don’t need to be in this business anymore.

I wanted to give back, and I wanted to serve people. And I’d connected so deeply with survivors of assault, men and women. I always talk men, too, not just women. And I wanted to do something that was deeply moving and powerful and something that was kind of scary and courageous of myself as well.

And so podcasting is where it’s at, right? I mean, it’s like everybody has a podcast. But I was like, I want to have a podcast that only speaks to the survivor. I want to have a survivor to survivor. Because when I did documentaries and speaking out, I couldn’t talk to people who weren’t survivors. I didn’t feel the empathy, and I really couldn’t open up.

See how I open up with you. Maybe you have something that you empathize with me. I feel that with you. That’s why I can kind of be vulnerable with you. And wasn’t like that with a lot of people. And I was really just like this rigid person looking all put together all the time. It’s like, not really what I wanted to do.

So I wanted to have a podcast where, look, let’s be vulnerable, break it all down. Like I have. You have stuff, let’s talk about it. And so I would just have all these guests on.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And that has been healing for you to an extent.

LISA PHILLIPS: Oh yeah, it’s healing because when you hear other people’s stories, stalking, trauma, trauma bonds, domestic violence, serial predators, all of it, you find a little bit in your story and things start to make sense to you after a while. So it’s been very, very healing over the last year.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And your podcast, it’s called From Now On, what’s the meaning behind the name?

Justice and Healing Beyond Compensation

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, from now on I always ask each guest to finish that sentence. So from now on I’m going to be courageous or from now on I’m going to have boundaries or whatever it is for you that you’re realizing about yourself. So the guests are not in their trauma. So it’s not just this whole trauma dumping. It’s more of a, you’ve gone through the healing. Maybe you’ve written a memoir, a book, or you have a series coming out, or you have your own class.

THEMBI MAWEMA: You’re in a place you could talk about.

LISA PHILLIPS: We’re at a place where we’re going over the arc of the healing.

THEMBI MAWEMA: What role do you believe men can play in their healing process?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I have a sensitive spot for men because I’m raising three little boys and there’s a lot of abuse. And I knew that in the modeling industry from men, but it’s kind of a hush hush thing. And with the P. Diddy case, a lot of the cases were men, and a lot of people in the headlines, they don’t talk about that in the news and the media.

There’s a lot of men that have abuse and it would break me. It would break me when I would be speaking to a man and he tells me about his abuse from childhood. I just couldn’t keep it together. But it’s something that needs to be told. And so I honor both men and women. Anyone who wants to tell their story. I just think it’s all important.

Not just, I’m not a woman’s right, all about women. I don’t buy into that stuff. I’m not a feminist. I’m more like, it’s all of us together.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Right.

LISA PHILLIPS: Sorry, but that’s the way I see it. You may not and many other women don’t. But I want to start with men too and understand how important they are to us. There are good men out there. I see that. And sometimes men don’t feel like they can be good.

Even my 11-year-old child would be like, “Oh, well, how am I supposed to respect her? Mom, look what she’s wearing.” We’re all like, what? What do you mean, what is she wearing? She can wear what she wants to. Actually, we both need to understand and respect each other so we can move on and live together and have more powerful relationships.

The Release of the List

THEMBI MAWEMA: Well, for someone who has experienced a lot of trauma, you also do have a good, there’s a part of you that’s, I can feel you’re okay. You’re still obviously healing and going through things. But it’s good to know, the fact that you can even see and say there’s good men out there.

And kind of going back to the Capitol Hill moment, very powerful moment. In the event the DOJ does release this list, then what for you and some of the other survivors? What happens from then? Is it just a relief? What’s the next steps after that?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I think this is going to be an ongoing thing for a while, but as they start releasing some names, obviously it’s a great thing to have people held accountable, but I mean, there’s going to be many other steps after that.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Is there anyone from your encounters and the women you’ve talked to without seeing any names? I mean, you can if you want to, but I understand there’s a sensitivity around it. Is there anyone that is going to be shocking to people? And I’m sure there’s going to be a level of shock in general for these people who are on this list. But is there anyone who you’re like, if that name comes out, it’s going to shake the table?

LISA PHILLIPS: No, no. I think the general public has an idea. Most people have been linked in either way. If you did your work, you definitely put a lot of names together. A lot of it’s out there. They haven’t been proven. How much they were involved or what went on. I don’t really think there’s going to be much shock. I don’t.

I just think that a lot of the men that we know, that we’ve talked about are people that most people wouldn’t even take two looks at. You wouldn’t even think what? In tech or academia, whatever it is, people might be like, “Oh, never thought that person would be doing that.”

Trump’s Response and Political Context

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay, so you’ve spoken about the president, Donald Trump, and that you’ve never personally seen him involved, but he may be potentially protecting people close to him or maybe even himself. But he’s recently addressed this case or the file specifically or the list as a hoax. What are your thoughts around that?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, I mean, that was upsetting when he said that, because that was right when we were all speaking out on Capitol Hill. It wasn’t really easy because I do believe it was taken out of context. I think that everyone in the media focuses on him, and I kind of agree with the president in that way that they need to stop focusing on him, get the attention off of him and start looking at others.

I mean, was he around? Was he friends with him? Probably so. I don’t know how involved he was. I mean, most of the survivors that I know never saw him there. There were other former presidents that were seen there, prime ministers and other people. I don’t understand why the focus isn’t on them more so than our current president. So, unfortunately, I can feel his angst is coming from, and it shadows what’s really going on. Unfortunately.

THEMBI MAWEMA: From your point of view, has there been a significant difference in the journey to justice between the Biden administration and the Trump administration?

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, unfortunately, it’s all coming out right now. Okay. Under the Biden administration, we weren’t ready to speak out then. It wasn’t really pushed so much then as it is now. Just for whatever reason, it all just exploded in the last few months.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Probably because of the president, one would assume.

LISA PHILLIPS: Well, because, yeah, because, yeah, wanting to take him down. I do understand that people are annoyed and they have the reasons to take him down. I just think when you focus so much on him, we’re getting away from…

THEMBI MAWEMA: From the real problem.

Epstein’s Death and Its Impact

THEMBI MAWEMA: So when you found out that Jeffrey Epstein had passed away by way of suicide, did that bring you a sense of relief or a sense of frustration?

LISA PHILLIPS: Oh, I don’t know how to describe what came over me, but it was very powerful. I mean, I just kind of had an emotional breakdown. I haven’t had one before that. I haven’t had one since that. I don’t know. It’s like, it was confusing because in a way, he was a powerful mentor to me in his moments and his good moments. But then it was a very well knowing of some dark things that had gone on.

And it was just, it was a relief that he was dead, that he was gone. It was just a relief that I was like, now I can breathe now. I can breathe now and I can actually start thinking about it and talking about it. I mean, if he was alive today, I wouldn’t even be sitting here.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Do you think you’d still have some kind of mental hold on you?

LISA PHILLIPS: Absolutely. Of course, I would never speak out if he was still alive.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Out of fear or out of control?

LISA PHILLIPS: It’s a hard one. I have no idea about it. Not many people would be speaking out. Fear. Yeah, he was scary. He can go from being super charming to being really frightening.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Do you fear for your life or your safety at any point, speaking out?

LISA PHILLIPS: No. Well, I didn’t expect what happened at Capitol Hill to be such a big deal. Wasn’t expecting that at all. So after it happened, it was a little scary because there were thousands of people that reached out. Thousands of people and mostly were supportive, receiving weird mail and emails and things like that.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Like threats or supporters of the predators?

LISA PHILLIPS: Supporters. I don’t mind. Okay. There were some very odd things that were said and there are crazy people out there. Yeah. I’m sorry, but there’s crazy people out there. So I’m very careful what I say. I mean, most of what I do talk about was already said before I spoke out.

I have an NDA. I don’t say anything about him. There are certain people that I’ll never say things about. There’s just a lot of the survivors have received death threats and most of us have kids. So it’s, you have to be very careful. I like living.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah. So, you know, there was a sense of relief when he passed away. Was there frustration in the sense of, he didn’t live out his day in court or a full life sentence or anything? There wasn’t, some may say he got the easy way out. Some people, some survivors may say he got the easy way out. They want him to live every day behind bars or whatever it may be. Did you have that frustration or not so much?

LISA PHILLIPS: I think most survivors would have liked to have seen him live his day behind bars. I think that probably would feel good, but I think, I don’t know with this type of person. I think him being deceased is probably the best feeling to feel. I just think he was too powerful of a man. And he had too much on people that him being alive in jail…

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah. To that point, from what you do know about Jeffrey Epstein, do you think he committed suicide?

LISA PHILLIPS: Of course not.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you think that was…

LISA PHILLIPS: Of course not. Why would he? He probably would have gotten off on all charges, I’m sure.

THEMBI MAWEMA: So you think that he was probably confident that, I know enough, I can…

LISA PHILLIPS: Of course. That’s why he did everything that he did. Yeah. I don’t think for a second that he committed suicide there.

Surveillance and Blackmail

THEMBI MAWEMA: You know, there’s been talk about there were a lot of cameras around his home and things like that. How confident are you on your take that the tapes were for blackmail and not some predator trophy or personal gratification?

LISA PHILLIPS: I don’t know. You’re going to have that many cameras recording every single thing on every house that you own just for what, to play back and watch it? No.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And they were everywhere.

LISA PHILLIPS: They were everywhere. They were everywhere. It’s, you have to, it’s for a reason for sure.

What Justice Looks Like

THEMBI MAWEMA: Epstein is deceased. Ghislaine is in jail. What does justice look like to you at this point?

LISA PHILLIPS: That’s a good question. I flip flop a little bit on what justice. Sometimes I get really angry and I want to push this. And when people call me like, “You’re going to go for this and you’re going to speak out about this,” and I’m like, “Yeah, I want to do all this stuff. I want to have all these people held accountable.”

And it’s just tricky one, because when you do that, now everyone else has to speak out, or subpoenaed, and you have to go to court and you’re dragged through the dirt, and there’s a lot of young women, girls, children that were involved. They need to be protected.

So I just want to leave it up to the DOJ to do their job and whatever they feel is necessary and how far it can go. But I do feel like they’re protecting them for a big reason. We all probably don’t really understand how deep and dark maybe that goes. What’s the real reason why?

I think justice for me is just doing the best that I can do to change legislation, change laws and advocate for bills and do this podcast and have a place where survivors could come and speak and share their stories and own their power again. To me, that’s really what I focus on, believe it or not, much more than the justice side of things.

THEMBI MAWEMA: And my last piece on that, there was an Epstein Victims compensation fund paid out. It paid out over $120 million to 136 survivors. And apparently 52 women privately settled claims. Is that a form of justice in your opinion, or a form of protection still from the powers that be?

LISA PHILLIPS: That was the original fund. The JP Morgan fund was close to $250 million with over 200 survivors. So there were two. I can tell you that a settlement, of course, helps take care of your kids and pursue your dreams and things like that, but it doesn’t heal you.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Did you receive a settlement?

LISA PHILLIPS: Yeah. Not from the two you said, no.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Okay.

The Power of Therapy in Healing

LISA PHILLIPS: From the JP Morgan one. But what was fantastic and that you don’t understand, and people don’t understand listening at home. The settlement obviously helps. I do like my new shiny Porsche. Okay. But that’s not what helps.

They gave us five years of therapy. Five years of therapy. That’s what’s helped me. Driving a Porsche or going through school or buying a new house, for a lot of these survivors, I’m telling you, is great. But when they gave us five years of therapy and I’m now almost two years in, that is life changing.

That is where the boundaries are built. And that’s where I’m getting tough. And that’s where you see the power in me. And that’s where you see the woman in front of you is from JP Morgan’s therapy. They gave us five years. That’s powerful.

The money comes and goes and is not. Trust me. Look at Virginia. She was paid out, I don’t know, 12 million, 20 million over the years. I don’t know how much.

THEMBI MAWEMA: It was a lot. And still took her own life.

LISA PHILLIPS: So to answer your question, she’s not here today. So money doesn’t heal.

THEMBI MAWEMA: That’s interesting. That part of the settlement includes therapy.

LISA PHILLIPS: Isn’t it great? It’s what those women that you saw at Capitol Hill standing there before you was the therapy that got them there. It wasn’t money. It angers me. And people are like, “Oh, you got a settlement or you just want money?” Are you freaking kidding me? Do you know how much my podcast cost? No. The healing is what really matters.

Looking Ahead: Advocacy and Empowerment

THEMBI MAWEMA: Yeah. So, looking ahead, what’s next for your advocacy work, you know? And what’s your message to survivors who are still living in silence or living in shame?

LISA PHILLIPS: Advocacy work, not stopping now. It’s 10x since Capitol Hill. A lot of wonderful projects I’m really passionate about. So I’m not done there yet. Won’t be a full list, but I’m not done with advocacy work, and I got some really exciting things happening there.

And the second half of your question? Well, I’m starting with the podcast. We’re going into season two, looking for a new home for season two and amplifying survivor voices because we do have the power, and it was the third place.

THEMBI MAWEMA: What’s your message to survivors who are still living in silence or in shame?

A Message to Survivors

LISA PHILLIPS: You can live in silence for your whole life, but I do would encourage you to just own that part of yourself, the good with the bad with the ugly, and own it. Speak it out loud, talk to people, talk to other people that support you. Find a good support system and own that story, because that’s the real healing process is going to happen once you kind of own that story.

And it’s okay if you stay silent, if that’s your path, and then true healing will happen. When you start talking about it, you do kind of step into another level of power that you find you probably don’t even know you’re capable of.

I mean, I always knew it was in there, and there’s been pockets of my life. I feel it nothing like now, you know, and it’s because I’ve owned my story, you know. And I say, f* you to those who didn’t stick up for me, who abandoned me, who shamed me. I don’t need you anymore.

You know, for so many, many, many, many years of my life, I just was desperate for that parent or that sibling or that partner attention or, you know, support. You know, I don’t need it anymore because I found it in me by going through this process. So everyone’s capable, little by little, step by step, you’ll get there.

From Now On: Setting Boundaries

THEMBI MAWEMA: That’s amazing. Good for you. Well, I want to end this with a nod to you from your podcast. So for you, Lisa, from now on.

LISA PHILLIPS: What? No one’s ever asked me that. Oh, let’s just go really simple. From now on, I’m going to have very strong boundaries because that’s where I feel you see me smiling and stuff like that. When I have those strong boundaries, it makes me feel really, really good. Because then only the people who I know, love and really support and care about me are in my life.

THEMBI MAWEMA: That’s awesome. Well, thank you for taking the time to talk to us today and sharing your story and just being, you know, brave enough, courageous, and for your honesty for the people who want to know and follow you and your work. Listen to your podcast. Where can I find you?

LISA PHILLIPS: My podcast is From Now On Podcast on YouTube. We’re on TikTok. We’re on Instagram from now on podcast. Actually, it’s From Now On Pod. And I am Lisa Phillips. Awesome.

THEMBI MAWEMA: Thank you, Lisa. Thank you again for sharing your truth and helping others in the future.

LISA PHILLIPS: Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. It’s been really cathartic speaking to you, and thank you for your empathy.

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