TRANSCRIPT: Piers Morgan on The Tucker Carlson Show

My brother was a British army colonel. My sister married a British army colonel. They’ve all engaged in conflicts around the world, and so it’s complicated.

There’s no doubt that on the Russian side, they believe they were provoked into doing this. I know that you have sympathy with that view. There’s also no doubt from the Ukrainian side that they believe since the ’90s they’ve been this sovereign democratic country, albeit not perfect. You think deeply flawed. I think they’ve been imperfect trying to improve and Zelensky has actually, I think, been a force for good, not bad.

The Current State of the War

PIERS MORGAN: But ultimately, what’s happened now is that you have a situation where, as Donald Trump told me recently, you know, they… it’s just the mowing fields now where you have thousands of young men being killed often on a daily basis. Both sides. And no one’s winning this war, it seems to me. And if anyone is going to win, it’s likely to be Russia, not Ukraine.

And then what happens? And that concerns me enormously. If the West allows Putin to just take the land he’s taken, what guarantee do we have he won’t try and take the rest of Ukraine? He took Crimea. He’s back for more.

I think he wants a hold of Ukraine. I think he won’t stop there if he’s allowed to get it. I think he’s a pretty ruthless, evil Russian dictator.

Defining Dictatorship

TUCKER CARLSON: How are we defining… just to find the term so we can follow the same… Hey. What’s a dictator?

PIERS MORGAN: A dictator to me is somebody… well, I would start by saying you have no respect for democratic norms. Election… a free and fair election.

TUCKER CARLSON: So… Like, an unelected leader would be a dictator.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, you wouldn’t argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair elections.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I’ve… I’ve… I’ve never… I’m not that interested, actually.

PIERS MORGAN: Are you not?

TUCKER CARLSON: Not really. It’s not my country. I’m interested in my leaders, whether, you know, they have the consent of their people. I’d… it’s not of great interest to me. Whether… I… I… I do think Putin’s, like, way more popular than, you know, Joe Biden. To his people. Yes. More popular in Russia than Biden was ever popular.

PIERS MORGAN: I wouldn’t dispute that. But… Why… why are you so against Zelensky?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I’m just trying to understand when you… you dismiss Putin as a dictator, which totally fair, I guess. But I’m just trying to understand what you mean by dictator. So the first criterion for dictatorship is that you’re not elected. And what else? Because Zelensky is obviously not elected either. Yeah. I… your… So I’m just trying to kind of figure out what you’re talking about.

Comparing Zelensky and Putin

PIERS MORGAN: Well, your… well, your comparison with Zelensky and Putin over the last two years, I found baffling. Because you seem to think there’s some moral equivalent between the two. And Zelensky hasn’t illegally invaded another country. Do you not have a problem with what… what…

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait. Wait. Hold on. I just want to know what a dictator is. I just want to know… I mean, I meant, you know, maybe he’s a better guy than Putin or whatever, and you could say some things about one or nothing. But, like, if we’re just going to define dictator, the first feature of a dictator is he’s not elected. So Zelensky is not elected.

He’s also… well, he’s banned a religious denomination. He’s murdered his political opponents. He has banned a language group. Those all seem like the features of dictatorship to me. Now he has the support of the British intelligence agencies. That doesn’t mean he’s not a dictator, though. That sounds like a dictator.

I mean, if it was… if I just gave you a piece of paper and I’m like, here are some qualities of a European leader. You would say, well, that guy, that’s not legitimate. That guy’s a dictator. I can’t support that. But his name is Zelensky. And he was once a comedian, and he does my show, so he’s not a dictator. I think it’s a dictator.

Ukraine’s Democratic History

PIERS MORGAN: Well, I… I would argue that if you look at the history of Ukraine since the ’90s, since it became a, for want of a better phrase, democratic country, they would say… Well, I mean, by the same criteria you support, Putin being popular in his country, I think up just under 90% of Ukrainians voted for it. You… you wouldn’t dispute that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, first of all, the country had a coup sponsored by the United States government, the CIA in 2014. So everything that happened subsequent to that, I don’t think we could call part of the democratic process. But just Zelensky personally is not elected. He’s not an elected leader. He rules by force. There’s no election that gives him legitimacy. So that’s not a defense of Putin. It’s merely an attack on the idea that Putin’s the only dictator in this contest.

How is Zelensky not a dictator? Do you think Putin’s a dictator?

PIERS MORGAN: I guess. Yeah. Mhmm. I mean, I guess. I mean, if I stand up outside the Kremlin and say, “Down with Vladimir Putin,” I’m probably in trouble.

TUCKER CARLSON: I said you don’t live in Russia.

PIERS MORGAN: Right. I… I certainly think that Ukraine has a lot of corruption.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. But Zelensky… legitimate… how is he legitimate if he’s not elected? Well, how could you support an unelected leader?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, he’s the president of the country.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, he calls himself that, but there’s no election that made him president. He blew past the election and said, “Oh, there’s a war. I can’t… we can’t have an election. We’re going to change the constitution.” So how is that a legitimate leader? How could you support something like that? That seems, I don’t know, like a dictatorship.

Supporting Ukraine Against Russian Invasion

PIERS MORGAN: Well, I would categorize my support for him as supporting him against an illegal invasion by Russia. So this is… this is, like, why we support Stalin against Hitler because…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, in a way, we have the defense. So Stalin must be good, but no. Stalin’s also a dictator. So, like, how about we just don’t support dictators if we’re against supporting dictators? Or you could take my position, which is I don’t want a dictatorship in my own country because I live in a free country, but we’re going to have relations with the country that helps us most up to a certain limit. We’re not going to, like, be allies with Stalin because that’s too evil. We’re not, you know, Winston Churchill or, you know, FDR or something.

We… we’re not going to go that far. But in general, we will deal with countries that help us. But when we start having moral conversations about other countries, then we have to stick by our own standards. And by your standard, you’re supporting a dictator. And I wonder how you can do that, Piers.

PIERS MORGAN: I’m not saying they’re morally pure in Ukraine. I’m not saying they’re not riddled with…

TUCKER CARLSON: But how would you not a dictator? Here’s my point to you. My defense of them…

PIERS MORGAN: Bloodthirsty dictator.

TUCKER CARLSON: Bloodthirsty dictator.

PIERS MORGAN: My defense of them is based on the illegal invasion by Russia. You and I can argue about whether Russia was goaded and provoked into doing that. I do not think anything justifies what they actually did.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. That… that’s a… that’s a totally fair position. I mean, I guess I disagree sort of, but I don’t think what you’re saying is crazy at all. But the point I was… How is that more illegal than running a country without an election and banning a religious denomination? I don’t understand that. So yeah. You could certainly say Putin did a lot of bad things. I would readily agree to that from the extent… to the extent I understand it. But we’re supporting… my government and your government particularly, are supporting this dictator in Ukraine who’s oppressing Christians, who is banning people’s native language and books in their native language. He’s a book burner. And, like, that’s totally cool because we hate Putin. That’s not totally cool, isn’t it?

The Future of Ukraine

PIERS MORGAN: So would you just let Putin take Ukraine?

TUCKER CARLSON: I would say let’s have an election in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian people elect their own leader and get rid of the midget dictator who now oppresses them, Zelensky. And I would definitely not support a guy who’s not elected as a democratic figure because by definition, he’s not. By definition. I don’t care who’s enemies are. He’s not worth calling a beacon of democracy if he doesn’t even have… why not have an election in Ukraine today?

PIERS MORGAN: Because we’ve got a war. We had elections in our country during the Second World War, so did you. Like, why… why not hold him to democratic standards?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve got no problem with saying he should have an election.

PIERS MORGAN: What about banning a Christian denomination?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I don’t agree with any of those things.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, how can we ever support that? Because ultimately… We’re paying for that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because ultimately, we have to make a calculation about whether we’re happy with Russia invading what is a sovereign European democratic country.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s not a sovereign… military. It was controlled by the United States. They installed their government in a coup in 2014. Because they have… very puppet of the United States and Great Britain. Because they are… They’re not sovereign. Do you think they’re a democracy?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, their leader’s not elected. So by definition, they’re not a democracy. It may be a great place to vacation or they’ve got… you know, we’re getting a lot of money from, you know, defense deals, and they’ve got pretty women. There are lots of great things you could say about the Ukrainians. They’re actually great people from what I can tell. I know a bunch of them. They’re awesome. But they’re definitely not a democracy.

PIERS MORGAN: So should Putin just take the land?

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

PIERS MORGAN: So what happens?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. We should stop paying for the slaughter of the entire Ukrainian population. Because we don’t know. I mean, either he’s allowed to take it or he isn’t.

PIERS MORGAN: Either we now say, yes. You do. Why is it up to us? I don’t understand. We’re not…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, who else can stop him?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, I don’t know. I mean, when, you know, Congo invades its neighbors, like, it’s not axiomatic that we should be involved. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, why did America go and support that?

The Kuwait Invasion and U.S. Intervention

PIERS MORGAN: Because there’s oil here. Did you support that?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I was in college and drunk.

PIERS MORGAN: Could you basically agree with it?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I mean, I had a lot of job ideas. Storming normal course stuff. Okay to drink beer in the morning. Do you think looking back at it, was it right to do what America did with the allies? British would that say I don’t know.

PIERS MORGAN: Expel him from Kuwait? It wasn’t a NATO country.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that was… I mean, that’s the kind of war that in theory I would support. You say, we have, you know, energy interest in this region. We want to keep it stable. When you start getting theoretical, like, we’re preserving democracy by supporting dictators…

PIERS MORGAN: We say energy from Ukraine, though. This is an energy component to that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Maybe. I… I don’t see the… That’s what… what I’m thinking is that the… I don’t like… it’s the moral overlay because it’s fatuous and fraudulent.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s not… this is not a democratic country. He is a dictator. We’ve supported many dictators. We supported Mobutu in Zaire, which no longer exists because he was a bulwark against the Soviets. We thought… or in a million others.

PIERS MORGAN: No. But you’ve already said that you would support the expulsion of Saddam from Kuwait…

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know that I would.

PIERS MORGAN: Led by America. But you just said you did. Right?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I said I was drunk in college. I haven’t really thought… I said, but theoretically, you could make the case… Because they had United States. We need cheap energy. We’re going to go to war to preserve cheap energy. You know, that’s not a crazy thing to say. Maybe I could support that.

PIERS MORGAN: Right. So what’s the difference? I’ll tell you between that and what’s happened with Russia and Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, because…

PIERS MORGAN: We need Ukraine’s energy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Has… We need Ukraine’s… We do. No. Twenty-five percent of the world’s wheat comes out of Ukraine. I… I’m aware, which is why you probably don’t want to kill all of its farmers and sell all of its farmlands, which is what we’ve allowed to happen.

PIERS MORGAN: Zelensky…

TUCKER CARLSON: We’re not good at them. The Russians are. Well, no. This war wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for the money in arms that we’re sending to Ukraine. It would have been over in one day. It never would have started. If we hadn’t…

PIERS MORGAN: When you say over, what do you mean? What would have happened?

The Role of NATO and U.S. in the Ukraine Conflict

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think… I think it’s very clear, and I don’t know that anyone would disagree with this, that Russia would not have invaded Eastern Ukraine if the Biden administration hadn’t sent Kamala Harris to the Munich Security Conference in February of 2022 to say to Zelensky on camera, “We’re going to make you a NATO country.” Meaning, we’re going to put American NATO arms on the Russian border.

Like, you would not allow Chinese… we… your country probably would. But you shouldn’t allow Chinese missiles in Scotland peering over Hadrian’s Wall aimed at London. You’d be like, no. It’s our… you know, you can’t do that on our border. And the Russians are like, no. You can’t do that on our border. And we’re like, shut up. You’re Russian. You have no right to determine what happens on your border. Piss off.

PIERS MORGAN: But it… but it’s… But it actually happen. But my point is if the defense of expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was that we have energy interest in that country… And no one ever said we should kick him out. But that’s obviously what we all knew, and it was done very quickly and competently by General Norman Schwarzkopf, and it was great. Great military operation. But the… but surely the principle in ideology is not different.

The Changing Republican Stance on Foreign Conflicts

PIERS MORGAN: And what’s interesting is every… every… well, every Republican… every Republican…

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re idiots. They support the Ukraine. Oh my god. No. I mean, every Republican in ’91 would have supported that conflict.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, whether or not…

TUCKER CARLSON: Whereas now members of the senate support something is… Whatever. What they’re not supportive it, I can promise.

PIERS MORGAN: Every Republican both, sir, I think would have supported it. Whereas… whereas what’s in… Thirty-five years ago, I’m just saying. What’s changed is a lot of Republican supporters now, conservatives in America, are against supporting Ukraine anymore. And I’m curious about that change in what has been, what, thirty-five years. There’s been a real sea change, and it may be because Americans are understandably war weary. They’re fed up with spending a lot of money on foreign wars, foreign conflicts. There’s a good argument America hasn’t really won a foreign war since World War II. You know, you look at from Vietnam onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on and so on.

And I look at what’s happened in Ukraine, and I’m just looking at it pragmatically. Do we just let a Russian, do we let Russia, led at the moment by Vladimir Putin, who are we categorized as a dictator, or do we let him just take what he wants? Even if he uses it and dresses it all up as “I’m doing this because I fear about NATO encroachment,” which may well be… may well be his reasoning. It may well be his reasoning. Okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: But many people think it’s not his reasoning. Okay. And many people think. They think… Why would you want to put US missiles on Russia’s border? I just understand.

PIERS MORGAN: Because the other… yeah. But…

TUCKER CARLSON: So obviously unacceptable for any sovereign nations to tolerate. Here’s the other part of the argument. He has nuclear weapons. Why would we want that?

PIERS MORGAN: Because a lot of people used… We have nuclear weapons too. A… a lot of the argument…

TUCKER CARLSON: Does he have nuclear weapons?

PIERS MORGAN: We do. Nuclear…

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. We have nuclear weapons. Why? Why?

PIERS MORGAN: Nuclear is a terror. Great Britain has nuclear weapons?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. We do.

PIERS MORGAN: You think that’s a good idea?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Absolutely.

PIERS MORGAN: You know why?

TUCKER CARLSON: Freaking me out.

PIERS MORGAN: You say, if Ukraine had nuclear weapons, they wouldn’t have been invaded. Can we agree on that? We told them to give up their nuclear tariffs.

TUCKER CARLSON: Invaded. We told…

PIERS MORGAN: If the west hadn’t said, “We’re going to use you as a staging ground for intimidating Russia.” Like, why would we want to do that? Why not just allow… what we’ve done is push Russia into the Chinese…

TUCKER CARLSON: And many people would say… How does that help us?

PIERS MORGAN: Many people in that region say, actually, what’s happened to Ukraine is precisely why they should have been in NATO. Because if they had been in NATO, Putin wouldn’t have invaded them. Okay. And also they say…

TUCKER CARLSON: People say that.

PIERS MORGAN: Also say, if we hadn’t collectively basically bullied Ukraine into giving up their nuclear deterrent, he wouldn’t have done it either because they would have had a nuclear weapon to defend themselves.

TUCKER CARLSON: This is super crazy.

PIERS MORGAN: Is it crazy?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. It is.

PIERS MORGAN: Crazier than your theories?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, actually, I… I don’t… I don’t… I don’t think… I mean, I have a million theories, but these are not among them. It’s not a theory to say that Russia moved into Eastern Ukraine because the United States wouldn’t give up on pushing for Ukraine admission into NATO. When NATO did not want Ukraine… And there’s also the criteria for emission. So…

Putin’s Motivations and Language Policies

PIERS MORGAN: But I think you’re only giving half a picture. I’m not… I’m not oblivious to that, but I would add this component to it, which is also not surely beyond the realms of fantasy. Vladimir Putin knows a lot of that part of eastern Ukraine, they still speak Russian. He has resented the breakup of the Soviet Union famously, and that actually he wanted to take back land that he believes…

TUCKER CARLSON: Banning. Should have… should belong to Russia their language.

PIERS MORGAN: Should belong to Russia. Okay.

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The Crimea Situation

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, did you say that? I… I think it’s true of… look. I’m not an expert. I’ve interviewed Putin. You know, I’ve been there a couple of times. I don’t speak Russian, so I hope I don’t get over my skis and pretend to know things that I don’t. But what’s very obvious is they have an interest and have for over three hundred years in controlling Crimea. Crimea, where their fleet is based. They had a referendum in Crimea. The people in Crimea are Russian and want to remain part of the Russian Federation.

So he didn’t take Crimea. It’s Russian. It’s filled with Russians. They had a referendum that nobody disputes. People should be allowed to choose their own government. That’s the basic precept of democracy. You didn’t take Crimea.

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. Should people be allowed to choose their own government?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. So the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to align with the Russian government. So that’s illegitimate. Why?

TUCKER CARLSON: When did they do that?

PIERS MORGAN: Right after the coup in ’15, I think.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. So after they’ve been invaded.

PIERS MORGAN: Why do you think… why do you think… why do you think so many Russians voted for Putin in Russia?

TUCKER CARLSON: Think it was invaded. Russia has controlled Crimea for three hundred years.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. But it… it is… It wasn’t… it wasn’t… it wasn’t Russia’s. And in the same way that… that… that you say with the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly in favor. Of course they did. They would have been killed if they hadn’t. Same way as in Russia. In the secret balance?

TUCKER CARLSON: But same way Russia. Wait. Wait. Wait. Hold on. So you’re saying that the election was conducted under duress and people’s votes were known to the Russian government. I don’t think that’s true. I think secret ballot.

PIERS MORGAN: Exactly the same way that people in Russia vote for Putin. You think it’s an overwhelming show of support for him. A lot of it is driven by fear.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, okay. That may or may not be true. I don’t know. But what… The only measure or the only measure we have of popular consent is an election. And when conducted by secret ballot, if we think it’s not being… it’s not the 2020 election, it’s, like, kind of a legitimate election. That’s what we go with.

And I’m just… is there… have you ever met anybody who believes that if a free and fair referendum were held once again in Ukraine, that Ukraine would vote… Ukraine… I mean, rather than Crimeans would vote to align with Zelensky the Zelensky government again. I don’t think so. It was ninety-seven percent. Look. I’m just saying self-determination is the core idea in democracy.

They don’t have it in Ukraine because they haven’t had an election. They ignored the election because it’s run by a dictator called Zelensky. If you wanted to say he’s a dictator, that’s fine. You support a dictator. The US, your government has supported many dictators, so is mine.

The Moral Dilemma of Supporting Leaders

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s kind of a fact of life. There are very few democratically elected leaders. Sometimes even our leaders aren’t really democratically elected, as you know. I just don’t like the moral nonsense that attaches to all of this…

PIERS MORGAN: That’s fair enough. Where we tell the population, we’re on the side of democracy, and he’s Winston Churchill.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t claim… I don’t claim he’s Mother Teresa against him. No.

PIERS MORGAN: But you have, though. You’re like, he’s a marvelous person.

TUCKER CARLSON: I like him.

PIERS MORGAN: I’m allowed to, aren’t I?

TUCKER CARLSON: I guess you like dictators. I’ve never said a Putin. He’s a marvelous person because, like, he’s a little dictator-y for me. I… I’d think he’s really smart. I admire what he’s done to Russia, but I’m not going to sniff his jock because he’s kind of a dictator. But you’re like, “Oh, I love that Zelensky. He’s so great.”

PIERS MORGAN: I do like him.

TUCKER CARLSON: How can you like a man who’s a dictator?

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t think he’s a dictator.

TUCKER CARLSON: In what sense? He’s not elected. He rules by force. He rules with guns. He kills his opponents. He’s assassinated a ton of people, including, you know… I… I know someone he tried to assassinate, fact. How is that worth supporting? Do you feel a little guilty for supporting someone?

PIERS MORGAN: No. I don’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really?

PIERS MORGAN: No. But I think we should try and do more to help him win.

TUCKER CARLSON: How much do you think he’s gotten from this war?

PIERS MORGAN: No idea.

TUCKER CARLSON: Does it bother you that he’s gotten rich?

PIERS MORGAN: He’s not as rich as Vladimir Putin.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I mean, if all comparisons are to Putin, then all bets are off. Putin is… well, Putin is financially raped in the British country for maybe… I… I don’t know. Maybe. I don’t…

PIERS MORGAN: Come on. Okay. Okay. Let’s see. Yeah. He’s got personal net worth of a hundred billion rubles, whatever it is.

TUCKER CARLSON: How we would know that, but great. He does. He’s evil. We’ll… we’ll just… we’ll stick with that. But the question is, why would you support personally a dictator who’s gotten rich on a war in his country who bans a Christian denomination and who murders his political…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, he literally only been…

TUCKER CARLSON: Does that bother you at all?

PIERS MORGAN: He’d been in his country for two years. We’ve… He didn’t… got a lot of pressure on two years. He didn’t get rich on corruption in two years.

TUCKER CARLSON: But can I ask you… when you talked to… his Christians have been doing this for two years? Why don’t you have an election? Why don’t you stop murdering your political opponents? Why don’t you let people practice their Christian denomination? Why don’t you let Russian speakers speak Russian and read Russian books? That’s what non-dictators do.

PIERS MORGAN: Any of that to Putin?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course not.

PIERS MORGAN: Why not?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because I’m not his friend. I don’t have the relationship with Putin that you have with Zelensky.

Personal Opinions and Admiration

PIERS MORGAN: I didn’t talk after my interview. “You’re a very handsome man. I love you. I love you.”

TUCKER CARLSON: I didn’t call him a very handsome man.

PIERS MORGAN: I think you did.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think he’s a very handsome man.

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. Hot. Hot is maybe what you said.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t think I called him hot.

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. Well, you said “I really admire you” and I think… But you’re asking me to ask all the questions of Zelensky. You didn’t ask Putin.

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s a personal friend of yours.

PIERS MORGAN: I’m not friends with Putin. I’m not the guy who’s personal friends of Zelensky. I admire… read your Twitter feed. I admire him. I… you can’t fool me, Peter. You can’t mis-categorize me. I don’t… I’m not a friend of his. I’ve only met him once, but I do admire his fortitude as a leader. I love the fact he stayed in Kyiv when the Russians went in. He could have fled. Many would have done that position. Everyone thought the Russians would win in a few days.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. They didn’t.

PIERS MORGAN: I agree. I do admire the fortitude that he showed as a lead… a leader. Those characteristics I like. Doesn’t mean he’s… you’ve called Putin a magnificent leader. In fact, I’m pretty sure I think he has been.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. So I’m just asking since I… I didn’t call Putin a magnificent leader at all.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: But nor did you ask him any of the questions that he want me to ask. I didn’t feel like I… I didn’t want to do what everybody does, which is, “You’re so bad, Vladimir Putin.” Meaning, I’m so good. I’m going to give you a moral lecture. I’m like, whatever. It’s your country. Country’s actually doing great. I was super impressed by Moscow. I’d recommend it to everybody just because it’s beautiful and orderly, which I like. Not moving there. They don’t have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me. But I didn’t feel like that was my job. I just want to hear what the guy says. We’re fighting a war against him, but no one’s heard him say…

PIERS MORGAN: Why do you believe him?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know that I do. Do you know? I mean, you believe his reasoning.

PIERS MORGAN: Believe something. You believe the reasoning for the war. You’re fully all in on the Russian kind of… no question about that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, maybe you have a question, sir. Really think so. I don’t think any informed person… I mean, the Bill Burns, the…

PIERS MORGAN: Only ten percent of people in Eastern Ukraine actually want Russia to take them over.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I don’t… I don’t know how we know that, but I believe that. But it doesn’t…

PIERS MORGAN: It’s a poll. Same poll you… you know, you… you’re quoting me about Crimea.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that wasn’t a poll. It was an election. The vast… critical to democracy. I don’t know if you knew that. But the vast…

PIERS MORGAN: You’re a beneficent leader.

TUCKER CARLSON: An election is a poll. They’re called polls.

PIERS MORGAN: An election is a poll. A poll is not an election. Right?

TUCKER CARLSON: So there are different criteria for polls.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, a poll can be an election.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Now we’re getting metaphysical, but I would just say… I would just say, if you believe in democracy, you believe in elections. If you have a leader who’s not elected, he’s not a democratic leader, he’s a dictator, which is okay. That’s fine. It’s a foreign country. I wouldn’t call any dictator magnificent just because it seems a little…

Elections During Wartime

PIERS MORGAN: How could Zelensky have an election in the middle of a war out of interest?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. How did… how did Franklin Roosevelt do that in the middle of the Second World War? How… how did he do that?

PIERS MORGAN: Because no one has invaded America.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Well, but how about the…

PIERS MORGAN: The people could actually vote.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, they’re… You’ve got half of… half of Ukraine…

PIERS MORGAN: Making billions of dollars…

TUCKER CARLSON: Half of Ukraine is… of… of today. How about the non-occupied parts of the country? He’s making good faith effort to have an election, but he doesn’t want to because I… I think he’s pretty darn unpopular because he is a lackey of western powers who sold his country out. And Ukrainians know perfectly well that he’s getting rich, and so is the entire leadership. I… I was in Courchevel, France two weeks ago, which is probably the richest town in Europe. It’s a ski town in France near Geneva. And everybody at the Hermès store was Ukrainian using my money to buy hundred thousand dollar handbags. Nobody seems to care about that. I care because that’s not freedom fighting. That’s grifting. That’s theft. And everybody in Europe knows that, and you know that too. Go to Romania. All their, you know, high-end car dealerships are sold out because Ukrainians have bought the car.

PIERS MORGAN: To be clear, when…

TUCKER CARLSON: What the hell is this?

PIERS MORGAN: So when… okay. Well, so when Putin invaded Ukraine, you’d have given him what he wants? Take whatever you want?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, as I’ve… as I’ve said, and I really mean it from my heart. I mean, I have no kind of… I’m not getting rich from this. So, I’m saying what I sincerely believe, which is pushing Ukraine to join NATO. When NATO doesn’t want Ukraine, there’s no strategic reason, no actual reason to have Ukraine in it or to have NATO at all. We shouldn’t have NATO at all.

PIERS MORGAN: Oh, that’s preposterous. What’s the point of NATO?

TUCKER CARLSON: To keep peace.

PIERS MORGAN: The Soviets are invading Western Europe.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, well, it’s been thirty-five years since they did.

PIERS MORGAN: To keep peace.

TUCKER CARLSON: How’s that worked?

PIERS MORGAN: To keep peace?

TUCKER CARLSON: We now have the bloodiest war in eighty years in the middle of Europe because of NATO. So how’s this peacekeeping…

PIERS MORGAN: Actually could argue as many people do that actually the reason is because Ukraine wasn’t in NATO. Had it been, Putin wouldn’t have invaded.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s a super… this is like an addiction, and I’ve been through addictions. I’m not judging at all, but it’s like, I feel really bad. I’ve got to have a glass of vodka to feel better.

PIERS MORGAN: Are you mocking my mental health?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not… yes. But I’m also saying that I’ve lived this, so I know what it feels like.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s the thing that is killing you. It’s truly killing you, whether it’s NATO or vodka. You become convinced it’s saving you. So you wake up hungover and you’re like, “Oh, I feel so bad. Give me a screwdriver.” And if a screwdriver, you feel better, and you don’t realize that you’re starting the cycle again.

PIERS MORGAN: Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if it had been a member of NATO?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. He wouldn’t have done. Because then America would have been a… a blizzard. Would never… here’s what I know. For a fact, Putin said this for twenty years. Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO. They will not accept that anymore that we would accept Chinese missiles in Tijuana, or you would accept Sri Lankan missiles in Glasgow. You just not accept that.

PIERS MORGAN: NATO is… is a defensive organization.

TUCKER CARLSON: How is it defensive?

PIERS MORGAN: Because it has never acted proactively aggressively.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where were you when the Yugoslavia war was going on? They were bombing the hell out of Christians in Yugoslavia. Do you remember that?

PIERS MORGAN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: That was pretty offensive.

PIERS MORGAN: NATO has always operated in a defensive…

TUCKER CARLSON: How was defensive?

PIERS MORGAN: Yes. That’s how they created Kosovo? Defensively?

TUCKER CARLSON: It was defensive.

PIERS MORGAN: Oh, it was.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. It was.

PIERS MORGAN: The aggressor there…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, we know that… my… my brother-in-law was Italy there. Just a minute. What you’re saying is insane.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s not insane.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thank NATO have never actually acted unilaterally because of Soviet class. Attacked anybody without being attacked. It’s always been defensive.

PIERS MORGAN: When? Okay. Who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO?

TUCKER CARLSON: Look. Just know. Here’s the point where you just submit defeat. Bow your head and be like, “You know what? I bow before superior knowledge. I totally got this wrong. I can’t believe I had such a silly idea. I’m sorry.”

PIERS MORGAN: Nice good guys in Yugoslavia. You’re saying they’re nice good guys.

TUCKER CARLSON: We’re just saying that was not a defensive act. That was an offensive act. Because Bill Clinton’s like, “I don’t like what you’re doing. I’m going to use NATO to kill you,” and he did and then created Kosovo as NATO base.

PIERS MORGAN: Because they were absolute genocidal maniac.

TUCKER CARLSON: Naughty. I’m not defending their…

PIERS MORGAN: The vessel they were being defended against.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who are we defending?

PIERS MORGAN: The Yugoslavians that were being pillaged and raped and murdered.

TUCKER CARLSON: By other Yugoslavians?

PIERS MORGAN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. This is getting intense. But NATO is a defensive organization. Say it all you want. Just like you can say Zelensky is a… a beacon of democracy when he’s not elected and he’s banning parts of Christianity, but he’s a dictator. So just to be clear…

PIERS MORGAN: Just to be honest about what things are.

TUCKER CARLSON: Just to be clear, you would have let Putin take what he wants.

PIERS MORGAN: Because what’s the alternative?

TUCKER CARLSON: When he invaded Ukraine. So I try and deal, especially as I get older, in the world of reality and achievable goals. And here’s the reality. Russia is a nuclear-armed power. It’s the largest country on Earth by land mass. It’s also the remnants of a global empire. So they have a sense of themselves as a global player, and they are because of energy and resources in general. Uranium. I mean, they have a lot of resources the world needs. So they’re a real country. They’re not Afghanistan. You can’t just tell them what to do. Get in line, bitch. They’re not going to accept that. Okay?

So they have said since the fall of the Soviet Union, you cannot have NATO on our border because it’s a critical national interest of ours. So unless you want to risk nuclear war, which we are now doing, you can’t move NATO to their border whether you want to or not. That’s just a fact.

And if you do, you’re going to get a war. We’ve known that since the fall of the Soviet Union. We promised not to do it. And we tried to bring… he… he asked to be in NATO in 2000. He asked George W. Bush to be… nobody contest that. This evil dictator who wants to invade Liechtenstein asked to be in NATO. Why wouldn’t we let him in NATO? Why did Condi Rice say, well, it can’t be in NATO? Why… Why do we have morals like Condi Rice in our US government? I don’t know.

PIERS MORGAN: So when he invaded, though, what would you let him do?

TUCKER CARLSON: We’re in… we’re in the hall of mirrors now. Look. Really? Okay.

The Moral Dilemma of the Ukraine Invasion

PIERS MORGAN: We’re in a very clear moral… We’re… we’ve moral moment in history where Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine. It is a European country. And we side with the… It has been in the… and spun his… from Russia since the mid-nineties. Assassinating people. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But what… what do you do? You don’t have to say moral about this. Look. In the real world, we do things we can’t achieve. And if we can’t achieve something, we don’t try and do it because millions will die as they’re watching.

PIERS MORGAN: What do you… what do you let him do there?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you start with a realistic understanding of the limits of your power, which is all adults have to do. My neighbors may offend me. I want them to turn down the music. I can’t just go over there and shoot them. I just can’t. It’s… it’s against the law, and I’ll pay a penalty if I do it. So I have to negotiate with them. Will you please turn down the music? Shut up. No. Please do it. If they won’t, I maybe threaten them. Like, I live in the material real world. Right.

PIERS MORGAN: But once… but once actually, he’s invading, what do you do?

TUCKER CARLSON: Then you have to decide, like, is it worth it? Right. Is it worth it? So that’s interesting to me. A million Ukrainians are going to die. Their farmland is going to be sold to BlackRock. The Ukrainian nation will cease to exist. They’ll flood it with third worlders. So what do you do?

PIERS MORGAN: What do you do? What would I do?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. I would say, like, if I took over the government in January of 2022 and were on the verge of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would say, guys, it’s not worth trying to impose something that this country will never accept because if we try to do that, we’ll get a war.

PIERS MORGAN: So do you let… let Putin take Ukraine?

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t let anybody do anything. You really… You are then do what you don’t… To do because you’re gambling with the other people’s lives. By the way, if a million Brits had died, you might have different perspective, but it’s very easy to be like, oh, more Ukrainians should die for the cause of democracy.

PIERS MORGAN: Let me… let me assure you. Let me assure you. If Russia invaded Britain, that would not be the view of the British people. Our view would be to fight to the last man and woman to kick him out. But my question really…

TUCKER CARLSON: You really think so? My… my question is not… You just got invaded over the last forty years and did nothing, so I don’t think so. I don’t think you would do that. I think you’d be like, we can’t fight back because we have nuclear weapons, but no real military. So we’d like to negotiate just like all conquered nations do. But… but… but…

PIERS MORGAN: They negotiate on the basis of neutrality. What can I actually do?

TUCKER CARLSON: But respectfully, you’re not answering my question, which you don’t have to because you’re interviewing me in this bit. But the question is, once Putin invaded, you let him take the whole country. What do you do?

PIERS MORGAN: If I were in charge…

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. If I had come in… if I came in in January of 2022, I would say to the State Department, I would say to the NATO leadership…

PIERS MORGAN: No. I’m talking about February, end of February, early month.

TUCKER CARLSON: Point. I’m cleaning up a mess caused by the previous administration. So assume it’s happened. Let’s end Donald Trump who’s actually coming in…

PIERS MORGAN: Right. In that exact circle. Right. And he’s now wrestling with this very problem. He certainly is. And it… it…

TUCKER CARLSON: He just… he doesn’t want to get Putin to win. And that’s my point to you. Do you actually want him to win?

PIERS MORGAN: Well… Well I mean, if your lodestar is whether other people win, you will lose. Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. That’s a terrible way to go through life.

PIERS MORGAN: But what do you… trying to prevent you a win. Uh-huh. No. I’m trying to win. I’m trying to win for my wife, my children, my neighborhood, my country.

TUCKER CARLSON: But once he’s invaded… I don’t care whether you win it. Once he’s invaded, what do you do? Your victory has nothing to do with anything. What I care about is my…

PIERS MORGAN: But you’re in this as much as we are.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. No. I care about my country and whether we win. It’s good for us because I’m in charge. My country is a big deal around it. I’m in charge of nothing. Is it good for America that Putin wins? This whole thing has been a disaster for… we’re going to lose the US dollar over this. Okay? Because we follow the advice of people like Boris Johnson, who have no skin in the game whatsoever, but they get to feel like a moral charge. You know, like, we’re on the side of democracy. Okay. It’s… it’s so infuriating, I’m sorry to be so mean to the Brits. It’s… it’s our fault too. We can thank you. In fact, we started this. But you guys went along like little Pekingese. You shouldn’t have done that.

PIERS MORGAN: But why are you not answering my question? What would I do if I were Trump right now?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. Once he invaded… Putin, what do you let him take?

PIERS MORGAN: I’d call Putin.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let him take. I would say at that point, to what extent can you clean it up? You… you call Putin and you say, alright. This happened. First thing we’re going to do is recognize it’s not in our interest, your interest, the world’s interest to have NATO missiles on your border. We don’t want that. There’s no reason to want that because we don’t want to drive you into the arms of China. You are really part of Europe, and you should be part of the West. Because the West is Christian world that has a lot in common…

PIERS MORGAN: And what have he said?

TUCKER CARLSON: Culturally, linguistically, historically, and we want to be a block against the right people. He says, you know… Obviously. And he says, actually, I want Ukraine.

The Geopolitical Strategy

TUCKER CARLSON: If you’re the leader of the United States, your number one goal is to keep Russia, the world’s largest land mass with some of the world’s deepest energy reserves from aligning with China, which has too many people, not enough land, and not enough energy. So if they get together, they create a block that is bigger than you economically and militarily. So you cannot let that happen. That’s number one goal. You cannot let that happen. And that retard in charge of our country just allowed that to happen because he hates United States as an acted against his interest consistently from day one 2020 to January 20th 2025 when he left. Thank God.

So that’s the goal. Do not allow to the extent you can control it. Do not allow Russia to align meaningfully with China. They have much more in common with us. They’re part of Europe because I don’t want to accept it anymore.

PIERS MORGAN: I’d love to be pedantic. You’re not being pedantic. What do you let Putin take?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t care. What I care about…

PIERS MORGAN: You don’t care?

TUCKER CARLSON: I care. But what I care about is the balance of power in the world. And if the West finds itself in a place where it’s got a much smaller collective economy and a much less powerful collective military than the east, then we’re in serious trouble.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm. There’s no balance in the world. The Chinese is in charge of everything. And she can’t let that happen. But if you roll over and you let Putin take what he wants…

TUCKER CARLSON: Roll over. It’s all this, like, dip measuring contest. Let me just… Let me just respond. Roll over.

PIERS MORGAN: Let me just respond. If you roll over and you let him take what he wants in Ukraine, why should China not go and take what they want in Taiwan, for example?

TUCKER CARLSON: They would just take… Well, they are going to take what they want in Taiwan. I’m not… I’m not sure they will, especially with Trump as president.

PIERS MORGAN: Of China. I don’t think they will. Okay. Why… why don’t we get to dictate what China does with Taiwan? Like, there’s fears of… You’d be happy for them to take back Taiwan?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not happy. I’m not happy with any conflict ever. I hate violence. I’m a Christian. I’m just saying that great countries have spheres of influence. So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone’s like, oh, the Saudis are in, you know, interfering in Yemen. Well, Yemen’s right there. It’s in their world. Like, they have an absolute interest in making sure that, like, nothing crazy goes on in Yemen. We have the same interest in Mexico and in Canada. And we have some crazy cross-dressing prime minister in Canada, so we kick them out because they’re on our border. And that’s what great powers do. That’s what they’ve always done. That’s what they always will do.

So it’s totally fair for us to recognize that the countries around Russia… know we shouldn’t be invading or torturing them or oppressing them, of course. But that’s their sphere. And big picture, holy smokes. You do not want the two largest powers in the world, apart from the United States, to get together and align against us.

The Israel-Hamas Conflict

PIERS MORGAN: Why do you support… why do you support Israel against Hamas, for example? Why do you support America giving them billions of dollars?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t.

PIERS MORGAN: You don’t support Israel being supported by America?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I… I support Israel in the sense that I… I really like Israel. I brought my family on vacation.

PIERS MORGAN: Would you agree with America supplying them with a lot of arms?

TUCKER CARLSON: To the extent that it… that it helps the United States, I’m for it. Of course. I… I think what we need is…

PIERS MORGAN: So you do believe in America interfering in countries a long way away. It just depends which country.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I… Your… your principle, it doesn’t really apply. It is… I’ll articulate it for the third time just to be totally clear. I believe the United States, like, for the third time just to be totally clear. I believe the United States, like every country, should to the extent that it can act on behalf of its own people and their perceived interest. We can debate what those interests are.

PIERS MORGAN: But that doesn’t apply in Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know what you mean.

PIERS MORGAN: America’s supporting Israel because it’s an ally.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t even know what those words mean. I’m just saying my personal…

PIERS MORGAN: They’re an ally. Right? I mean, they… they both means to be an ally. I mean, we have no…

TUCKER CARLSON: It means that when Israel wants to attack in Gaza and attack Hamas, America will help it because it’s his ally. That’s not what it means to be an ally. To be an ally. Okay? What a fundamental thing. Greater allies than my own children. When they come to me and say I want to do this, I assess whether it’s good for them or not. And if I don’t think it is, I don’t support it. Right. Because they’re my true allies. They’re my children.

PIERS MORGAN: But why would you support America getting involved in Israel?

TUCKER CARLSON: Country that’s your allies says I want to do this does not mean axiomatically you support it. Maybe it’s not good for you or me.

PIERS MORGAN: So do you support America supporting Israel to the tune of billions of dollars?

TUCKER CARLSON: It depends. If you can make it… What’s… what’s in America’s interest is what’s happening in Gaza? In all cases.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s not just about Israel. But do you support what’s happening then in the support in the attacks in Gaza, for example? Because I don’t see the difference in that and what’s happening in Ukraine. This is a long way away from America. There’s no direct involvement with America.

TUCKER CARLSON: Will it… There’s no… there’s no mainland involvement with America, and yet you think it’s right that America supports Israel or put words in your mouth. But you don’t think it’s right that America…

PIERS MORGAN: Those are the words that came out of my mouth. You don’t think it’s right America supports Ukraine?

TUCKER CARLSON: Simple solution. In Russia. Have a simple solution. Let me explain what I think. And then that way, we’ll… we’ll get…

PIERS MORGAN: Am I wrong? We’ll get right to what I think. Am I wrong?

TUCKER CARLSON: I… I actually tuned out midway through. I’m not exactly sure what you thought of that.

PIERS MORGAN: What I’m right. Just because I’m right. You talk to now.

TUCKER CARLSON: I… I didn’t follow that. How do I tune out when I’m right?

PIERS MORGAN: No. We… it was more a lecture about what I think, and then I’m like, wait. I know what I think.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think I’m the most expert in what I’m saying. I think I’m the uncontested premier of my own head. That is true. So I’m going to unload its contents on you.

PIERS MORGAN: Right.

America’s National Interest in Israel

TUCKER CARLSON: Explain to you what is America’s national interest in Israel. I’ll define the parameters as well because I’m happier with that. I would say I support the right of all sovereign nations to act within what they believe is their own interest. Like, we don’t always know our own interest in our personal lives or between nations. Like, we think it’s good for us, but it may not be.

The vodka in the morning analogy. Not good, actually, but I thought it was. Now I know it’s not. But to the extent that we think we know, I think countries should act on behalf of their own citizens. That’s that’s the basic idea in democracy.

Okay? And there’s certainly a… you could make a case that whatever we’re giving to Israel this year in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan guarantees, however we’re doing it, is good for the United States. I think you just have to make that case. Why is it good for the United States? Well, you could make that case.

PIERS MORGAN: But why is it? I’m not convinced. What is the case?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t know. You’d have to be an advocate for it.

PIERS MORGAN: You are a vociferous advocate for it, so why don’t you tell me?

TUCKER CARLSON: For what?

PIERS MORGAN: For US aid to Israel in the current conflict.

TUCKER CARLSON: Actually, I’m… I’ve… I haven’t expressed a view about that at all. I’m just curious about your… the difference in your… an Israel hater, are you?

PIERS MORGAN: Why do you hate…

TUCKER CARLSON: Not at all. Not at all. Why do you hate… why are you attacking Israel? I don’t know why. Like, what… what problem do you have with Israel, Piers?

PIERS MORGAN: I have no problem with Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like this. They secretly hate Israel.

PIERS MORGAN: I have no problem with Israel whatsoever. Like you do.

TUCKER CARLSON: Isn’t Netanyahu a dictator?

PIERS MORGAN: Actually, I don’t like Netanyahu. I think you should…

TUCKER CARLSON: You hate Israel.

PIERS MORGAN: I think you should go. No. But that’s one. But let me just ask you one more time.

TUCKER CARLSON: Whoa. Whoa. Hang on. Now we’re getting into… I’m not comfortable with this. Here’s my question. I don’t know. Can I be platformed? One, that’s my question.

PIERS MORGAN: You just said you don’t like Netanyahu?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m trying to work out whose… whose brand suffers more when we platform each other. But let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. I’m going to need a second.

The Debate on Foreign Policy

PIERS MORGAN: One more time. Just quietly for the people at the back. You don’t like America getting involved in helping Ukraine against Russia because there’s no national interest for America in doing that in your eyes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, there’s a negative national interest for the round one. So I get that.

PIERS MORGAN: Using the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency because of this war. Alright. Okay. So fine. No greater national.

So that’s your… be your position is America first. That… that there’s no interest for America. Shouldn’t be doing it. Every country… It’s a problem between… it’s a problem between Ukraine and Russia. Okay.

That’s fine. A lot of people have that view. I respect it. What I can’t understand is the difference in your logic and principle about supporting Israel in its war with Hamas, which is many thousands of miles away from America. Have I…

TUCKER CARLSON: No. There’s no direct…

PIERS MORGAN: Have I been a great advocate for the… The war it doesn’t?

TUCKER CARLSON: I… I missed that part of the conversation.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, you support America supporting Israel. You don’t support America supporting Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t support America supporting any nation on the planet to its own detriment. Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States. Okay. That’s the point of our government is to serve the people who live there called citizens. That’s what democracy is. There’s no other reason.

So if I’m in charge of a country and I decide, actually, I should do this because people who pay me want me to do it or I’m making money to do it, then I’m by definition illegitimate. That’s not democracy. That is a species of oligarchy or whatever. You could assign a name to it. That’s not democracy.

So I just believe in our system, And our… our leaders should act on behalf of their own people or what they think is the their own people’s interest. And I would apply that to Israel. I’d apply it to Ukraine. I think there have certainly been times where we have benefited from our alliance with Israel.

PIERS MORGAN: No. It’s an alliance just like we have an alliance with Israel. They are allies then.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know what ally means.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s short for alliance.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. You’re right. It is. Yeah. It’s funny. I never heard that.

PIERS MORGAN: Gotcha. You got me.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’ve literally just… When it comes to etymology, you are the unchallenged king. Boom. You’re blowing my mind, Piers Morgan.

My English linguist… I just want to say, you guys invented the language. You know what? It is our language. You lot messed it up. But we actually… I totally language.

As a P.G. Wodehouse fan, I totally… It’s a root, not a route. It’s Iran, not… not Iran. And it’s a hurricane, not a hurricane. Hurricane is embarrassing. These are all our world.

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t know. That’s not all hurricanes. You changed them. We have hurricanes. You don’t have hurricanes or pecan?

TUCKER CARLSON: I have one in ’87. It knocked down all the trees in my house.

PIERS MORGAN: You had a hurricane?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. ’87.

PIERS MORGAN: I think it’s a typhoon when it happens. Famously, the BBC weatherman at the time announced on the BBC main news on the night, there were people ringing in saying, is there going to be a hurricane in the UK? And no one knew what happened. Tell you, there is not. Four hours later, every tree in South of England fell down.

TUCKER CARLSON: Are you serious?

PIERS MORGAN: Yes. But we called it a hurricane at my point.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Well, you don’t have enough experience.

PIERS MORGAN: As someone who spends a lot of time in Florida, it’s a hurricane. It’s also a cocktail.

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Discussing Putin and International Politics

PIERS MORGAN: Would you kill Putin if you could?

TUCKER CARLSON: Would I? Not personally. No.

PIERS MORGAN: But do you think it should be the policy of the UK government, the US government, under… because it… it is now the policy to kill Putin.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I would prefer the people of Russia to vote him out, but I also feel the same way about Netanyahu and the people in Israel.

PIERS MORGAN: So you’re not calling for the assassination of Netanyahu…

TUCKER CARLSON: No.

PIERS MORGAN: Or Putin?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. Do you think that, if Putin were to leave either by force or choice that Russia would have a more pro-western leader after…

PIERS MORGAN: Not necessarily. No.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Highly unlikely.

PIERS MORGAN: Highly unlikely. I think that’s a fair assessment.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why would you want… since there’s no evidence that the majority of Russians don’t want Putin, there’s overwhelming evidence that they do want Putin. So he appears to be the choice of his own country, which he may not like or whatever, but it seems true. And he’s the most pro-Western leader we’re likely to get in our lifetimes, then why are we against Putin exactly?

PIERS MORGAN: Because I don’t believe him in the way that you seem to. I don’t believe… I don’t believe anybody.

TUCKER CARLSON: That he has this very well-intentioned, perfectly reasonable, understandable reason why he had to illegally invade a democratic country…

PIERS MORGAN: Illegal.

TUCKER CARLSON: And take a third of his people and take a third of his land of people. And you think that’s fine. And I’m saying when you make reference to what’s legal in the middle of a war…

PIERS MORGAN: It’s illegal.

TUCKER CARLSON: When your country and mine blew up Nord Stream and destroyed the Western European economy, was that legal?

PIERS MORGAN: You’re talking to the editor of the paper that oppose the illegal invasion of Iraq.

TUCKER CARLSON: You supported that.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, I… I…

TUCKER CARLSON: You did?

PIERS MORGAN: For the invasion of Iraq. That was illegal, though.

TUCKER CARLSON: Apologize for 22 years, but I wanted to…

PIERS MORGAN: Did you accept that was illegal?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t even know what that means.

PIERS MORGAN: Breaking the law.

TUCKER CARLSON: What law?

PIERS MORGAN: Against international law.

TUCKER CARLSON: What… who makes international law?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, the international community.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, the international community. What do they mean? Do you know if there’s anything like… you… you don’t believe in anything that means?

PIERS MORGAN: Who is the international community?

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t… you don’t… Is Iran in the international community?

PIERS MORGAN: So you think any invasion of a… of a sovereign democratic…

TUCKER CARLSON: Not at all.

PIERS MORGAN: Could be legal?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know even know what you mean by legal. I… I… it’s wrong. It’s lawful. What law? Are there international policemen? Who are they? What are you even talking about?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, you don’t… you don’t… you don’t think they’re international law?

TUCKER CARLSON: So I think they’re moral laws, and that’s what I care about. Certain things are wrong regardless of what the leaders of any… You don’t believe that. You believe there are pro actual laws.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s not international laws. There’s no international laws.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really? Are there national police?

PIERS MORGAN: You don’t believe in international courts?

TUCKER CARLSON: You don’t believe in international courts.

PIERS MORGAN: No. So… so who… who’s punished in the actual… Other than Milosevic.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you believe in… It’s punished. Do you believe… believe in the Geneva Convention or not?

PIERS MORGAN: I believe in the idea behind the Geneva Convention. Absolutely. But it’s universally disregarded, including by your country, which I think is bio weapons, by the way. You should get on that to find out. Those are prohibited, but I think you guys have them.

PIERS MORGAN: You’re in violation.

TUCKER CARLSON: If that turns out to be true, I would be violently opposed to that.

PIERS MORGAN: But you know that it is true.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t, actually.

PIERS MORGAN: I think you should find out.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ll look into it.

PIERS MORGAN: I mean, there are bio labs in Ukraine.

TUCKER CARLSON: Mhmm. What are bio labs doing in Ukraine, do you think? Are you comfortable with that?

PIERS MORGAN: No. It wouldn’t be if they’re there. But you said Zelensky was a… a fabulous leader. Why would he have bio labs?

TUCKER CARLSON: I like him personally.

PIERS MORGAN: The dictator with bio weapons. I’m… I’m not into it. I’m sorry. I’m just, I guess that it would be… it’s against international law, so I’m opposed.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Look. I’m just saying international law is a theoretical concept, and it’s literally theoretical because it’s not enforceable, and we know that because it’s not enforced. So what matters is what’s the interest of your country and what’s right and wrong. And I’m a Christian, so that’s, like, pretty clear for me. All this stuff is wrong.

It’s completely wrong. It’s wrong to send cluster bombs to Ukraine, which you supported. I’m totally opposed to that. Cluster bombs to kill more kids? Like, why? That’s wrong. I don’t care if international law says it’s wrong. That’s…

PIERS MORGAN: Was it wrong… was it wrong for America to use atomic bombs as well?

TUCKER CARLSON: Absolutely.

PIERS MORGAN: Really?

TUCKER CARLSON: And I don’t…

PIERS MORGAN: To use nuclear weapons?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

PIERS MORGAN: To win the war?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

PIERS MORGAN: To save many hundreds of thousands more people dying?

TUCKER CARLSON: I… that’s what happened. I don’t…

PIERS MORGAN: You know, this is, the normality refer to in the business as a theoretical, correction.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not really. Everyone is…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, it’s literally theoretical. Whether you agree or don’t agree with the use of nuclear weapons, nobody disputes the fact that it brought an end to a war, which hadn’t been allowed to carry on for another six months to a year, would have carried many more people.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why… why drop it on Japan’s Christian population? Is there some reason Hiroshima wasn’t enough?

PIERS MORGAN: No. Because they wanted to test a different variety of atomic weapon.

TUCKER CARLSON: So, like, I’m against that. I’m against killing civilians. I’m against firebombing cities. I’m against bioweapons. I’m against chemical weapons. What weapons do you support?

PIERS MORGAN: I guess conventional weapons. You know, I’m…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, how big a bomb do you support?

PIERS MORGAN: Look, if you’re intentionally killing civilians…

TUCKER CARLSON: Is there a question of the subscale? I mean…

PIERS MORGAN: To some extent it is. Yeah. If you believe in a big bomb and it kills five hundred people, but you don’t agree with one that kills a thousand, what’s the difference ideologically?

TUCKER CARLSON: It depends who they are. I mean, I think you can say… I mean, there are…

PIERS MORGAN: So after Pearl Harbor… after Pearl Harbor, you think it was wrong with the Japanese refusing to surrender, vowing to kill as many people as they possibly could, that America decided to use its two most powerful weapons to bring an end to the war.

TUCKER CARLSON: I think there’s a… That’s one way to put it. I mean, that’s… I… I would say it’s more morally justified what America did than what the British did, for example, in carpet bombing Dresden. Yeah. I think there was more justification because they were trying to bring an end to the war as quickly as they could to avoid potentially millions more people dying.

I… you know, it’s no defense of Imperial Japan or Pearl Harbor or Franklin Roosevelt for allowing Pearl Harbor, which he did. It’s not a defense of any of that to say, if you’re intentionally killing civilians, you probably shouldn’t beat your chest and brag about it. You know?

Debating the Morality of Warfare

PIERS MORGAN: Maybe you can make… I agree with that. Maybe you make the case that we had to do it or whatever, but you should…

TUCKER CARLSON: I agree. You should weep. And that’s evil, and you should just say it’s evil. And I know it’s really really threatening to…

PIERS MORGAN: Is it evil?

TUCKER CARLSON: Ben Shapiro to say that or whatever. Is it evil? To kill civilians on purpose, yeah, it is. I think it is.

PIERS MORGAN: Really?

TUCKER CARLSON: Kids and children? Well, how is it not, actually? In a war? We can call it whatever you want. How is it right to kill women and children?

PIERS MORGAN: I didn’t say… well, because I think there’s a moral right behind you. If you are literally…

TUCKER CARLSON: To kill women and children?

PIERS MORGAN: If there’s a… if there’s a world war that threatens the entire… if it threatens the entire world? Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Some people killed your kids like your eight-year-old? Like, you have to have the world and stuff.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, because actually, you have to… well, by your criteria…

TUCKER CARLSON: Disgusting. Okay. So nothing’s so… no war is morally justified?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. I think it’s pretty hard to justify. I mean, yeah. Any war?

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, a pure defensive action. Sure. But all I’m saying… look. It’s all ugly. It’s all hard to stomach. I’ve actually seen some of it up close, super ugly. You can say that… you can say you hate it.

The fact you… you can’t remember it being morally justified. To intentionally kill noncombatants, women and children, I think we can say that’s wrong. In fact, I thought that was the thing we were fighting against. And censorship and dictatorship, people ruling without being elected, people using force to get their will. Like, I thought that was the whole thing we were fighting against.

So how about we don’t become that? And I’m just saying all kinds of decisions are made under duress. I have made decisions under duress foolishly that I’m ashamed of, including supporting the Iraq war. But why are we defending it? I just don’t understand that.

And we’re defending it, of course, because we’re still doing it. And a lot of people are getting rich, and a lot of people find meaning in their otherwise barren lives rather than, like, raising decent children and having a productive life making something. They exist to destroy. I just think that’s evil.

PIERS MORGAN: You think no military action is morally justifiable, though?

TUCKER CARLSON: I didn’t say that.

PIERS MORGAN: But are you implying that?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not implying it. I never implied anything. I just say things.

PIERS MORGAN: It’s the death of any innocent people. For girls. I was just telling you what I said.

TUCKER CARLSON: Kill… yeah. But if you kill any innocent people, civilians in a war, you think it’s all morally lacking in justification. Because I would argue against that.

PIERS MORGAN: Right. You… you’re arguing against the construct that you created in order to argue against.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Really? I’m being… well, I’m being super straightforward. If you’re in…

PIERS MORGAN: Is there any form of… of warfare that’s morally justified?

TUCKER CARLSON: Go on. I’m saying when you intentionally kill women and children, when you wage war through fear by murdering the civilian population, I don’t think that’s a good thing, and I don’t think you should be defending it. And I don’t know why it’s such a threat to say that out loud.

If you’re firebombing someone’s city as we did Tokyo, as you guys did Dresden, and a lot of other cities, by the way, in both of those countries, If you’re dropping atomic weapons in the middle of town on a Catholic church…

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know why you have to look back eighty years later and be like, that was a great thing. It wasn’t a great thing. It was a shameful thing. And we should be better than that because we’re not savages.

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t agree. I don’t agree with it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Apparently, you don’t.

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said, right, Grammar, it’s okay to kill eight-year-olds because it’s war.

PIERS MORGAN: No. It’s not okay to kill eight… I didn’t say anything is okay. What I said is morally justified because when you have an enemy that is prepared to put six million Jews into gas chambers and murder six million more people, they are prepared to do anything and you have to stop them.

TUCKER CARLSON: And then any response you give to me is morally justified. Any response?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, pretty much. If you’re… if you’re taking the war to them to try and end the war…

TUCKER CARLSON: But you don’t want to… trying to defeat a nihilistic group like the Nazis, yes, it’s morally…

PIERS MORGAN: Nihilistic group. Since the guy is defending the murder of eight-year-olds, they’re nihilistic.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m not defending the murder of any eight-year-old. Thing is expressing a species of nihilism. The whole point is we are better than you because we have limits. There’s some things where I’m not going to rape your wife. I’m not.

PIERS MORGAN: How do you stop?

TUCKER CARLSON: Hold on. Let me… let me finish. Okay. I am not going to behave like an animal. You are. That’s why we’re at war. You bombed preemptively my Pacific fleet in Pearl Harbor. We weren’t even at war. Why’d you do that?

PIERS MORGAN: That’s outrageous we’re going to punish for you doing it. I get it. But we’re not liking…

TUCKER CARLSON: Not punish, defend. We’re first not defending. There was no threat of invasion if you’re the United States. I mean, you live in a tiny island nation. I think there was a…

PIERS MORGAN: The company that attacked Pearl Harbor, that is a form of invasion, isn’t it?

TUCKER CARLSON: It was not an invasion. It was an attack… It’s an attack on… I’m not defending Pearl Harbor. I don’t think Roosevelt should’ve let it happen, which he did. But it… once it happened, what do you do? You… you attack them back. I did. I think you agree. Okay.

PIERS MORGAN: But hold on. There are finer distinctions here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not really. We’re just at the back. Let me finish my…

PIERS MORGAN: Was it… was it morally defensible to attack them back?

TUCKER CARLSON: Stop. Okay. Yes. It was morally defensible to attack them back.

PIERS MORGAN: Thank you. Thank you. You agree with me?

TUCKER CARLSON: It depends what attack… You agree with me. You didn’t qualify. It’s like that’s… You didn’t qualify. Like crazy in your life. You didn’t qualify. You say it’s okay to molest children. Why do you say that? You’re like, I didn’t say that.

PIERS MORGAN: No. Get… no. You just said it’s okay to molest children. And why would you be in favor of trauma? Nobody’s talked about molesting children.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s what… You just said it was morally justified for America. It was… It’s like hilarious. America… you said America attacking after four months. On. They, like they end the interview and they’re like, what just happened?

Actually, you’ll be saying that. Told me what I believed, and then he attacked me for believing it. That’s so hilarious. I love that. It’s like a species of masturbation. Like, you don’t need another person present.

PIERS MORGAN: Listen. Don’t… not masturbation it. I’m not… sorry. It’s making love to someone… it’s making love to someone you love.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Let me just say, you don’t ever want to wind up in a place where you’re defending the killing of children. You just don’t. Now you go into eight hundred…

PIERS MORGAN: That wasn’t what I was doing. I was saying there’s moral justice very much for Judy.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. I said it was morally justified to kill children. I said morally just… no. No.

PIERS MORGAN: Morally justified to drop bombs which end the war. Yes. I do believe…

Debating the Use of Nuclear Weapons in World War II

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I ask you this since we’re still on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Hard to say make the case for Nagasaki, but whatever. Why not if you have this fantastic new weapon and you want to prevent… somehow you’re required to invade Japan. Like, I don’t know why we’d be required to invade Japan, by the way. Like, no one ever answers that question.

PIERS MORGAN: Attacked you?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. They attacked us four years earlier, and we’ve now beaten them and driven them out of the Philippines and Malaysia and all this stuff. We’ve won. Why do we have to invade mainland Japan? No one ever answers that question. We just kind of have to because we have to. Okay.

I’m not second guessing the military leadership of the second one. But I am second guessing this. Why wouldn’t you bomb just military installations? Why drop these bombs in the middle of a city when you know that overwhelmingly, the incinerated people will be civilians? Like, why would you do that?

I would not do that. I would say, I have the bomb. Okay. We’re going to drop it on, you know, critical military infrastructure, arms manufacturing plants on, you know, a fleet. Why would you drop it on?

PIERS MORGAN: Because when the enemy is not making that calculation, you have to stop them.

TUCKER CARLSON: Stop them from what? Not being invaded?

PIERS MORGAN: Stop them from killing your civilians, killing your people.

TUCKER CARLSON: Japan at… in… in the summer of 1945 was in no position to kill any American civilians, period. So I think they explode a couple firebombs over Oregon three years before. But the point is, look, I don’t want to… I understand, you know, people do their best under pressure. They make mistakes. I’ve made a million of them. I’m not judging even Harry Truman, who I do think was kind of a pig.

But whatever. I’m not even judging. I’ve maybe we would’ve done the same thing. I’m just saying eighty years later, why we… why defend that? Like, what’s the point?

PIERS MORGAN: I think it was morally justified.

TUCKER CARLSON: To kill two hundred thousand civilians?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. So then we wouldn’t have to invade, which we didn’t have to anyway? To save potentially millions of lives being killed.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Of our invaders of their country?

PIERS MORGAN: Of both sides. To bring an end to the war.

TUCKER CARLSON: How much does not invade them?

PIERS MORGAN: They wouldn’t surrender. You gotta bring the war to an end.

TUCKER CARLSON: But they had lost. Why do you… but why do you have to invade? They… they refused to surrender. Okay. But we’ve kicked them out of all of their colonies. We’ve driven them back to their islands.

PIERS MORGAN: You don’t dispute dropping those bombs into the war, do you?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I… I am disputing it. That’s what I’m doing right now.

PIERS MORGAN: Did end the war.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, disputing that it ended the war. Sure. Of course.

PIERS MORGAN: So it… the means and the fate.

TUCKER CARLSON: Correct. I’m also not disputing that bringing down the Twin Towers changed the United States. Like, if you commit enough killing, you will change people’s behavior, including getting them to surrender. I’m just… my only question is, is it worth it? And what are you becoming when you participate in it?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. But I think… I think that’s a meaningful question that nobody addresses.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. But you’re… who am I? Are you… I’m a decent person. I am… I… I’m an imperfect person. This is how Americans, I think, should think of themselves and mostly do. But I’m also a representative of an enlightened country, product of an enlightened civilization called Western civilization, and there are certain things I will not do even if they benefit me. I’m not doing that because I’m not that guy. I don’t kill children. I don’t rape women. I don’t send women into battle to defend me, which I guess we now do. That’s wrong.

PIERS MORGAN: So you… you would condemn what Israel’s done in Gaza, for example?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t… I don’t want to be involved in that.

PIERS MORGAN: I mean, nearly twenty-six thousand children are said to have died. I… I don’t… You condemn it?

TUCKER CARLSON: Think that that is a… I…

PIERS MORGAN: But your criteria is condemned? Is it morally justified?

TUCKER CARLSON: That is a calculation that Israel has to make. I don’t want to be have anything to do with that.

PIERS MORGAN: You have no… Is the… No… no view? No view?

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s hard to take a lecture from someone who just admitted that he hates Israel in every fiber of his body.

PIERS MORGAN: I never said that.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said that. You said that. Now you’re describing.

PIERS MORGAN: No. No. Oh, yes. You are. You’re the one who said that. You’re not describing.

TUCKER CARLSON: You said I hate Benjamin Netanyahu.

PIERS MORGAN: No. I didn’t. Nothing else. I don’t think you should be leader anymore.

TUCKER CARLSON: You hate him. You… It’s the leader. National hatred that, you know, I don’t know where it comes from. I can’t account for what’s in your soul. I don’t have an x-ray into what’s deep inside you. But all you said was I hate…

Debating Israel’s Actions in Gaza

PIERS MORGAN: I have no problem saying that I think Israel’s response has gone way too far. Way too many civilians have been killed. What I’m surprised about is that you having lectured me…

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

PIERS MORGAN: About the deaths of eight-year-olds said that… You don’t want to morally condemn what Israel’s done in Gaza. I’m curious as to why I want to… are your criteria.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep. My criteria apply solely, and this is a threat of consistency throughout my arguments here and everywhere for the last twenty years. They have to do with the behavior of the United States, which is my country. And it’s been my family’s country for hundreds of years. I pay my full taxes. I feel very vested. I’m a shareholder in my country. So its behavior matters greatly to me. I’m implicated in its behavior. And I don’t want the United States to participate in things that are counter to its interests or counter to the values of Western civilization.

That’s really simple. So other countries do all kinds of abominable things, including cannibalism…

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: A lot, actually, and human sacrifice a lot, actually. And, you know, okay. They’re not my country. So I don’t want the United States involved in anything that’s morally indefensible or counter to its own interests. Period.

PIERS MORGAN: So Israel’s dropping American bombs on Gaza, killing lots of children. In order to drop the blame…

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ll tell you what I think. Hang on.

PIERS MORGAN: You think that… you think the killing of civilians is morally indefensible?

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me tell you what I…

PIERS MORGAN: So American bombs are being used to kill a lot of children and women in Gaza. I hate that. Is it morally…

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me tell you what… morally indefensible? Now you don’t want to say?

PIERS MORGAN: I’m in the process of telling you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Go on then. Stand back. Let the flower bloom. Okay? Stop tending the garden, Piers. I hate the fact that civilians are killed with American weapons. I hate it. I hate it in Ukraine. I hate it in Gaza. I hate it in the occupied territories. I do. Whatever we’re calling it these days.

I think in the specific case of Israel, we have been closely aligned with the Israeli government, you know, since the 1950s. We’re actually instrumental in the creation of Israel, so since the late ’40s. And I think that there are times when our interests have aligned and there are times, the transfer of military technology to China being one of them, where those interests diverge. I would very much appreciate an environment in the United States where Americans could speak openly about what their money is doing in a bunch of different foreign countries, including that one. And I think that we should reassess all our relationships, all our alliances with our allies on the basis of whether or not it’s good for the United States on a bunch of different levels, economically, whether it’s good for our internal politics, whether it’s good for, you know, our power abroad, etcetera, etcetera.

And, yes, more than you know, I… I really think that we need a much more honest conversation about our relationship with Israel. And I feel if I can just say one thing and brag, I feel like I’m one of the only people in the United States who’s not emotional on the topic. Everyone’s so emotional about it. They hate Israel. They love Israel. It’s like, I’m American. Okay?

I… I like Israel. I don’t love any country other than my own, and I think we should have a rational conversation about this. And at this point, as you well know, we don’t. So that’s my actual position.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. I mean, look, for what it’s worth, my position is Israel had a fundamental duty on just the right, but in duty to defend its people after October the 7th, given the horrendous scale of that attack. And my only question I kept asking repeatedly from about the first couple of weeks onwards was what is a proportionate response? It was…

TUCKER CARLSON: What… what is morally justified? In general, your relationships with neigh… with your neighbors are your problem. In my home, my neighbors, I own my house. I can’t leave. But it’s also an American problem because American military is being used.

PIERS MORGAN: No. But you make calculations about your behavior based on what you can achieve, based on what you think your interests are, and that’s true at the homeowner level and it’s true at the nation level. So you deal with your neighbors, and that’s your problem. And if you’re in a fight with your neighbors, it’s up to you to resolve it. It’s not my problem. It… I… I do not have to resolve your disputes with your neighbors. And that is true of Ukraine, and it’s true of Israel. I’m sorry. I wish you well. I may have… you know, obviously, I like Israel because I like going there. I… I know Israelis, and I really like them. I like Israel.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, it’s the best. I mean, to visit, it’s the best. I like Israeli people. They’re very…

PIERS MORGAN: I do too.

TUCKER CARLSON: I… I like Palestinian people too. They like that.

PIERS MORGAN: I do too, and there are a lot of Christians. The one thing I’ll just be honest, since you’re pushing me on this, that makes me a little bit emotional is there are a lot of Christians, Christian Arabs. And having traveled a lot, I can say this is a matter of personal preference. I really like them. I’ve never met a Christian Arab that I didn’t like, actually. I think they’re really amazing people. And a lot of them have been killed or mistreated with American money and weapons, and I think it’s disgusting. And I think it’s especially disgusting that Christian leaders in the United States have said nothing because they’re bullied and bought off. And I think they, they should feel shame. And because they’ve dodged their duty, which is to speak up on behalf of their brothers in Christ. And they haven’t.

The Role of Christians in the Middle East

TUCKER CARLSON: And they’re… they’re Christians in Gaza who are killed. There are a ton in the West Bank. They’re the pope. And by the way, that’s the cradle of Christianity.

PIERS MORGAN: The pope apparently… church of the nativity. Part of the…

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s what the pope calls, a church in…

PIERS MORGAN: He’s absurd. I can’t.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. But he call… he actually calls a church… a Catholic church in Gaza every night.

PIERS MORGAN: To see how they’re doing.

TUCKER CARLSON: Every night, apparently, he calls.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. That’s the pope… the pope thing. I’m not getting involved. I’m not a Catholic. Sorry. You’re going to have to deal with him. Because you’re pope, not mine.

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TUCKER CARLSON: But I’m… No. But in general, I’m speaking about the United States, Protestants of the United States. That’s the world that I’m from that I understand. They have an obligation to stand up for… for their brother Christians around the world, and they don’t in this specific case because they’re intimidated. And I think that’s really shameful, and I think they should feel shame for it. It’s not a political question. It’s not do you hate Israel? It’s like, I… I… I don’t hate Israel. Anybody who murders Christians, defenseless Christians, the religion of peace, the actual religion of peace, I’m opposed to that. And we should just say that. It’s not controversial. It should not be controversial. And it just shows how totally afraid and lacking self-confidence Christians are to just say, like, I’m sorry. I’m not, like, attacking me, but I’m opposed to that. You can’t use my money to kill Christians. Blow up a church. No. Or to storm the church of the nativity. That’s my religion. No. You don’t get a dollar if you do that. And by the way, we’re not giving you any money until you promise to treat Christians as equals. That’s what I… you know what I mean? That’s… that’s how I personally feel, and I think all Christians should feel that way. It’s not attacking anybody. It’s just a baseline demand of, like, dignity and respect, and they don’t get it.

PIERS MORGAN: I mean, fundamentally…

TUCKER CARLSON: That makes me emotional.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Look. Fundamentally, I… we’re not a million miles apart, and we both… neither of us like war. Nobody who likes war should ever…

Discussing Dictators and Political Leaders

TUCKER CARLSON: But one of us likes dictators.

PIERS MORGAN: No. You do.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. You do.

PIERS MORGAN: I didn’t tweet out, “I love you, Vladimir Putin.”

TUCKER CARLSON: You didn’t need to. You look great.

PIERS MORGAN: You said it in your eyes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wait. But I didn’t say it on Twitter.

PIERS MORGAN: You should’ve… you know what? You should’ve been on Twitter.

TUCKER CARLSON: You just say everyone thought you did.

PIERS MORGAN: Oh, I didn’t… I don’t give a shit what people think, but I didn’t tweet, “Vladimir Putin, you’re fabulous.”

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re fabulous. You didn’t need to.

PIERS MORGAN: No. I didn’t need to.

TUCKER CARLSON: Body language said it for you.

PIERS MORGAN: No. I start humping his leg in the, in the interview.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Anyway, no. I just… I’m against dictatorship, and I… I don’t want to send money to dictators. Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to a dictator?

PIERS MORGAN: No. Because I don’t… I don’t see Zelensky as a dictator in the way that you do.

TUCKER CARLSON: If your prime minister decided not to have another election… Let’s keep… literally be lied for what? Two years? Two years, I think, he’d be in charge. Putin, what is it? Was he into? Maybe thirty years now?

PIERS MORGAN: I think Putin has been in, twenty-four.

TUCKER CARLSON: Twenty-four? I’m not defending Putin. I’m just saying, like, all dictatorship is bad. Like, a little dollop of dictatorship is… is bad as a mouthful of dictatorship. I’m just against dictatorship. I’m for democracy.

PIERS MORGAN: Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute. That’s what you call Zelensky.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I thought he’s onto me.

PIERS MORGAN: No. You’re all… I thought that was your… I thought that was your out for me.

TUCKER CARLSON: Inspiring…

PIERS MORGAN: So he had to say thank you, Peter. And resolute and very handsome, though.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s implied.

PIERS MORGAN: I would agree with all of those things.

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know.

PIERS MORGAN: You would.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

PIERS MORGAN: You would. I think the courage… the moral courage he showed on the night that the Russians invaded when people thought they would tweet through Kyiv and almost certainly kill him, the fact he immediately went on social media and with people around him and said, “I’m not leaving. I’m staying here for you.” That’s moral courage. On the kind we saw with Trump when he stood there and got back up and went fight fight fight fight. I’m surprised you don’t apply it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Opponents. Or when he steals US aid or he allows his generals to sell half the missiles they get from the United States to the Mexican drug cartels and Iran and everyone else in the black market. Is that inspiring…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, you’re making action. A lot of allegations against him.

TUCKER CARLSON: Facts.

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. You say they’re facts, but other people dispute them.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who disputes that they’re selling weapons in Ukraine on the black market?

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t think anyone disputes… I’m sure that’s happening.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, it’s happening?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Who disputes that Zelensky’s murdered his political opponents?

PIERS MORGAN: No one. Has he?

TUCKER CARLSON: You think he personally has ordered the murders?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, he’s in charge of the countries. You think he has?

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s the dictator. You just said he did?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, I mean, in the same sense that we would say… You wouldn’t dispute that Vladimir Putin does that relentlessly, that he imprisons and tortures and kills his…

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I think there’s… there’s a long… there’s a long history of that in the region, poisoning your enemies. Putin has done that. I… it seems clear to me. I’m not sending him money. I’m not calling him passionate, determined, resolute, and handsome.

PIERS MORGAN: You haven’t… I hate this. I love this. I don’t hate it. I know. Because I keep asking you the same question. And for some reason, you don’t want to answer it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. No. Wait.

Discussing Media Career and Freedom of Speech

TUCKER CARLSON: What would you let… I haven’t answered all questions. So let me ask you a really easy question. Now that you have been, like me, fired from your, like, cushy mainstream media gig, how much happier are you and why? And looking back at the television networks and newspaper… how many newspapers do you work for?

PIERS MORGAN: I ran two of the big ones in the UK.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. But over your whole career, how many do you work for?

PIERS MORGAN: I worked for three. Four… four, actually.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Right. So you’ve been at every stage of British media. Looking back, how do you feel about them?

PIERS MORGAN: I think I had the… the best of it really. I certainly think in newspaper terms it was before the Internet had really taken hold and so you were the… the receptacle for news for people. You know, there weren’t many television networks. We didn’t really have cable television when I was running the papers. So papers are much more influential and much more powerful because they were bringing the news to people. Yeah. People woke up in the morning and they would read their paper to find out what happened.

That doesn’t happen anymore. People already know what’s happened. There are millions of news networks all over the cable news and millions of Internet sites you can get the news. Everyone knows what’s going on. So these sort of… the… the points and relevance and power and influence of newspapers have dissipated.

They can still break big stories and have big influence. And if I was running one again, I’d be completely digital by now. I’d just abandoned print papers altogether, but the economic model is very difficult if you do that. You don’t make as much from the digital side as you do from print. So they’ve got to weigh that up and somehow get through it.

But I would invest heavily in investigative longer-term journalism because that’s how you can now bring news to people they don’t already know.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, sure. But I meant, all true. Totally true. But… but also just to explain. But I’m… I’m really asking about the honesty level.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: So now you have a gig where you can say whatever you want. You’re your own boss. You can make a… a real living. I have no idea how you’re doing, but given your numbers are huge. So I… I bet you… you’re probably making more than you made before. We’re in that range anyway. So it’s all great. But the greatest part is you can say exactly what you want. How would you compare that to your previous…

PIERS MORGAN: I would say the difference is you… you… we can’t get canceled. Right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. Who’s going to cancel?

PIERS MORGAN: It… ourselves. So we have a complete freedom and as a sort of liberation from the restrictions that inevitably come with working for big companies… big companies in the media have really struggled I think to move with the way young people now get their information. They don’t really understand… the big legacy media companies that young people do not watch linear television. Oh. They don’t read print newspapers.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’ve… what they really struggle with is just to stop lying. They can’t stop lying. Right. They’re… they’re… they’re racist liars. And they… and they have controlled the way news is…

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Terminated. The thing about you and me and other people that do this, whether you’re on the left or the right, there’s no control. Right? We… we don’t get controlled by anybody. We’re only answerable to ourselves and what we want to do.

PIERS MORGAN: I think I’m like you in the sense of we’re… we’re not politically aligned in many ways, but we’d love talking to each other, love debating, love arguing, love asking questions, love learning.

TUCKER CARLSON: Like I think we are politically aligned. I think…

PIERS MORGAN: We are in many ways.

Discussing Gun Control and Cultural Differences

TUCKER CARLSON: You do own guns. I know that you do.

PIERS MORGAN: I know that you do. And I know that you think this whole… your crazy thing is insane. Let me tell you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t. But let me tell you.

PIERS MORGAN: I know that you do. I can see it in your eyes. Like, how do I get out of there? There’s a lot of… lot of military in my family, you know, how to use guns better than me.

TUCKER CARLSON: I know. But not all use of guns is equal. Right? Some is counterproductive.

PIERS MORGAN: You know the thing about guns? I’ll just say this for your audience who will all be looking at me thinking I’m the two a gun grabber. The reality is it’s complete cultural difference in my country… everybody used to have a gun… everybody used to in the old days… now very few people have guns… there are incredibly tight restrictions and the consequence of that is we have almost zero gun crime… the…

TUCKER CARLSON: Where… oh, is your country… is London safe now?

PIERS MORGAN: I know. I’m about to come to that. The… the problem we have is with knives. Right? So I’m not saying for a moment, you get rid of all the guns, nobody gets killed. Of course, they do. We have a knife crime problem… epidemic in our country.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. You have a people problem. You have the kind of people who stab each other. And you didn’t used to have that.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, we did. We did.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. You didn’t.

PIERS MORGAN: We did. I mean, it’s miserable.

TUCKER CARLSON: How many people got stabbed in London in 1970 or shot compared to now?

PIERS MORGAN: Sure. But there are massive increase because the people… the attitudes of the people, the actions of the people are totally different. You’ve got different people and different behaviors. And, like, you can’t admit that because I’m not sure why.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. Because, actually, there are lots of white English people who stab…

PIERS MORGAN: Who stab… Oh, I know. Right. Oh, I know. So it’s not just about…

TUCKER CARLSON: Not a bit.

PIERS MORGAN: The influx of migrants, if that’s what you’re saying.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m… I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that I… I do think immigration has changed your country for the much, much worse.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, it certainly changed the country.

TUCKER CARLSON: Much worse. That’s my opinion.

PIERS MORGAN: But it’s not just immigrants who are behaving badly at all. There are a lot of native-born indigenous Brits who are behaving badly. That is totally true. And there are a lot of immigrants in your country who are kind of superior, actually, for being totally honest, who are impress… really impressive.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I’m not a good blanket statement. I’m just saying that the behavior has changed of the people who live there. Right? You can’t be trusted with guns now because you’re out of control.

PIERS MORGAN: Not about that. I just know we have very tight gun laws and no gun violence. The interest…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, very little. My question for you…

PIERS MORGAN: But do you own a gun secretly?

TUCKER CARLSON: I do not. No.

PIERS MORGAN: No. Do you want to?

TUCKER CARLSON: You know why I get five years in prison if I got caught with it?

PIERS MORGAN: So you’re afraid… you’re… you’re afraid of your government which doesn’t trust you because… dictatorship…

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Let me ask you a question about guns since you raised him. Because I’m curious. Generally, it’s just… you have… it said there are over 400 million guns in circulation in America.

PIERS MORGAN: Hope so.

TUCKER CARLSON: And it’s apparently a million new gun gets sold every month so that number exponentially rises… the number of mass shootings in America is also rising… do you think anything should be done about that… if I might… my time again talking about this with Americans, I would never have been so censorious. I would never have been talking about gun control. The word control alienates Americans. But what I would have said was, how do you make it safer? How do you stop so many people getting shot? What do you do about it?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, you ban SSRIs immediately.

PIERS MORGAN: Immediately. You ban?

TUCKER CARLSON: SSRIs. You ban whole categories…

PIERS MORGAN: The medication.

TUCKER CARLSON: Psychoactive. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the truth is that, you know, drugs and alcohol drive a lot of our social ills. A lot of them. And when people are sober, and I would say, you know, if you’re on Xanax or Prozac or you’re not sober…

PIERS MORGAN: Right. Right. I agree.

TUCKER CARLSON: But certainly alcohol and meth and you know, most of our social problems are either caused or exacerbated by the drugs that people take. That’s just a fact.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: And mass shootings are definitely in that category. So, look. As you found out, your… your knife crime has just exponentially jumped recently.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: And that’s not because there are more knives. People use them at dinner every night and have for hundreds of years and not since the Roman times, they’ve used knives and not stabbed each other. It’s because people are behaving differently.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. That’s true.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why is that?

PIERS MORGAN: That’s true.

TUCKER CARLSON: I must say, all the gun control people who want to send all the guns to Ukraine so they can go kill other Eastern Europeans, it’s like… it’s sort of weird.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you think it’s weird?

PIERS MORGAN: No. One thing is weird about the question I asked you is simply that if I was an American…

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s a lot of gun crime in Ukraine. Are you adding to that?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, there’s a war.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a different thing. It’s gun crime.

PIERS MORGAN: I call it gun crime.

TUCKER CARLSON: You… you think…

PIERS MORGAN: People getting killed with guns.

TUCKER CARLSON: Defending itself as a crime? I think there are a lot of people getting killed with guns, and I think it’s really sad, and we should disarm Ukraine.

PIERS MORGAN: Really?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, sure. People getting killed with guns. They shouldn’t have. There should be strict controls on guns in Ukraine. The automatic weapons you guys are sending… automatic weapons to Ukraine to kill other human beings. I just think that… I’m just not comfortable with that morally.

PIERS MORGAN: See, see what you’re doing, Tuckers. You’re looking at… British Cheshire cat thing with me.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Because I think it’s a factious argument, but it’s fine. It…

PIERS MORGAN: You… meaning brilliant?

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re avoiding ask…

PIERS MORGAN: You’re avoiding answering my question. Which is why do we have so many guns?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. No. Didn’t ask. Free. No one can tell us to get to defend ourselves. We all used to have guns too. Now we… And then you guys after the Second World War, which was like a liberation war and you won, you lost all your freedom. And now you can’t even express your political opinions if they put you in jail. So, like, how did you win? How did you win? Is that what victory looks like? You lose all your rights. Your economy gets destroyed. You’re going to be one of our bankers. All of a sudden… oh, I won. We won because I’m not conducting this interview in German, which I wouldn’t be.

PIERS MORGAN: Linguistic. So I’d rather not speak German. I’d be… I’d be goosestepping around my yard in England.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Yeah. But you are goosestepping. People arrested for praying. We literally won our freedom from people…

PIERS MORGAN: Where’s your freedom?

TUCKER CARLSON: You can get…

PIERS MORGAN: I’m as free… I’m as free as you could possibly want a human being to be.

TUCKER CARLSON: Defend yourself. You can’t control who comes into your country, and you can’t criticize government policies where you get arrested.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: So how are you free? You’re a slave, aren’t you?

PIERS MORGAN: No. We have…

TUCKER CARLSON: How free are you?

PIERS MORGAN: We have cultural problems in our country that’s a viable basis.

TUCKER CARLSON: Facebook right now and say, “I don’t want any more immigrants in my country. They’re making it worse.” You could say that.

PIERS MORGAN: What you couldn’t say, because a lot of these stories, I have to say, in America have been spun completely disingenuously. There’s one case, for example, I see everyone trying to send me as an example of Britain’s gone mad… Elon Musk has done it… as a guy who got seven years in prison… actually what he was doing… this guy was… he was orchestrating and directing rioting on hotels containing asylum seekers because he had an incorrect belief that someone who had stabbed three young girls to death and stabbed loads of others in a horrific attack was an illegal asylum seeker.

TUCKER CARLSON: Let me ask… one asylum seekers in this country. I mean, is that okay?

PIERS MORGAN: Fine. It’s not okay to have no asylum seekers. It is not okay to allow too many people to come in.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why is it not okay to have asylum seekers?

PIERS MORGAN: To have a broken asylum system as we have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why have any asylum seekers?

PIERS MORGAN: Because I believe you should as a… as a good example. Because we’re a caring, compassionate country. And by the way, Britain, for all your knocking of… caring, compassionate.

TUCKER CARLSON: Your native population is in massive decline. Brit… How is that compassionate… Britain.

PIERS MORGAN: To your people? Britain actually is one of the most tolerant multicultural countries in the world to this day.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why do you have so many stabbings?

PIERS MORGAN: We have a problem with stabbings. But you know what? How many people get killed by stabbings a year in Britain compared to…

TUCKER CARLSON: Evidence. Hang on. You have a problem.

PIERS MORGAN: We’re very competitive. We do a lot of stabbings.

TUCKER CARLSON: Fine. But by your criteria, they’re just defending themselves. Haven’t they got a right to bear arms.

Discussing Crime and Gun Control

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. Why don’t they have, like, why not really any stabbing? I know. Now you got a ton of stabbing. Jesus.

PIERS MORGAN: Everything’s totally fine. And if you complain about it, you’re going to jail.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do the British people have a right to bear arms, sucker?

PIERS MORGAN: All free people have a right to defend themselves.

TUCKER CARLSON: Bear arms?

PIERS MORGAN: Of course. Yeah. I have because they’ve been very nice. So why are you annoyed about the knife crime?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m against all crime. I’m not… look. Here’s thing. Here’s my only point. I’m sure if they use the Tucker Carlson argument, well, the other guy’s got a knife. I better carry one.

Freedom of Speech and Government Control

TUCKER CARLSON: United States, which is governed by a system we inherited with great gratitude from you, from the English. A person has a right, which is, we believe, God-given. It’s inherent. We’re born with it because we’re not slaves. We’re free people to say what he thinks is true. Period. Period. And government has to not only not infringe on that right, but protect it. It exists to protect that right. Your system is a little different.

We took a little farther and enshrine that in our Bill of Rights, which, unfortunately, you don’t have. I bet you wish you did. But from an American perspective, the idea that you would ever punish someone for talking…

PIERS MORGAN: But that wasn’t why they… that guy was punished.

TUCKER CARLSON: But… but… oh, that may be right. I… I would not… I would not contest that.

PIERS MORGAN: It is right. He’s… he’s literally inciting a riot.

TUCKER CARLSON: Test that there are hundreds of people who’ve gone to jail in the last five years in the UK for expressing opinions. That is a fact.

PIERS MORGAN: It depends what you think that opinion is. Most of them have been directing violence or inciting violence. That’s different. Expressing opinion…

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right, Peter. That is right. I don’t think they were…

PIERS MORGAN: That is right. That is right.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. And also, look, look at the case of Tommy Robinson. Tommy Robinson, most Americans I speak to think he’s in jail as some kind of political prisoner like Nelson Mandela for having views, about about…

PIERS MORGAN: Or Julian Assange. Yeah. But that’s not why Tony Robinson’s in jail… because he defamed a young Syrian refugee. He defamed.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. He lied about him. Okay.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, he did. But he was in the… the guy eventually…

TUCKER CARLSON: Of your leaders have gone to jail for lying? No. What? How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying? They lie constantly. Everybody speak to the side.

PIERS MORGAN: Not enough. I… right around zero, actually.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. So that doesn’t get… Throw powerless people in jail for… for saying things they don’t like. But you also have a defamation law in the United States. People have gone to jail for breaking that law. That’s happened. So you’re not so pure yourself.

PIERS MORGAN: Criminal…

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. Yes. You do. Criminal defamation, you do. I’m going to…

PIERS MORGAN: Go and check it. Go and check it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. There’s a lawyer sitting right there, but he’s occupied…

PIERS MORGAN: And you’ve had… you’ve had people go to prison in America for defamation, for labeling people, for saying things that you don’t like. It happened.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I’m… I’m just pausing because I don’t know if that’s true.

PIERS MORGAN: That’s true. I think I would be opposed to them. It is true. Do people go to jail in the United States for defamation?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep. They face civil jail. They face civil judgment. People have gone to jail.

PIERS MORGAN: Taking this up out of nothing.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. Go and check it. Let me check with an actual American. People…

PIERS MORGAN: You’re an American. Right? It’s…

TUCKER CARLSON: He’s my college roommate. You can’t. Right. Oh, he was born again. But this is my college roommate. He’s an attorney. I had all this debate.

PIERS MORGAN: Offense. I had all this debate on Twitter recently. It… people are… There’s a criminal defamation. There is.

TUCKER CARLSON: Where?

PIERS MORGAN: Go and check it. In certain states.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thank you. Has anyone gone to jail for that?

PIERS MORGAN: Thank you. I’ve never heard of that. Sorry. The British guy is now telling Americans about their own law.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m now pleased, obviously, but I… I think I’m going to, I’m going to dismiss that as a threat. I’ve never… no. No. No. Not take a piss. But the point is, you should never allow anybody in your country to go to jail for having unpopular opinions.

PIERS MORGAN: Depends if they’re inciting violence. That’s the criteria.

TUCKER CARLSON: Even mean? I do think, by the way, for what it’s worth, that some people have been put in jail for saying stuff on Facebook because they shouldn’t have been in jail. I agree with that.

Government Control on Social Media

PIERS MORGAN: The criminal prosecution service, CPS, shared a video in x warning people about using social media. And it stated this, and I’m quoting. I can’t do the English accent, but this is what they say.

TUCKER CARLSON: Go ahead.

PIERS MORGAN: “Think before you post, exclamation point. Content that incites violence or hatred…”

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

PIERS MORGAN: “Isn’t just harmful, it can be illegal. Paging George Orwell. The CPS takes online violence seriously and will prosecute when the legal test is met. Remind those close to you to share responsibility or face the consequences.”

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s just like North Korea at that point. You’re inciting hatred?

PIERS MORGAN: If you’re inciting violence against people.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. Or hatred.

PIERS MORGAN: Right. But the violence you’d agree with.

TUCKER CARLSON: Inciting violence? I don’t know what that means.

PIERS MORGAN: It means you literally direct people to go and attack an asylum seeker.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. No. That’s directing violence. Inciting violence…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, that’s the same thing.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. It’s not the same. It’s not the same. So if I say, Piers, I want you to go beat up, Alex. Right. That’s inciting and directing violence. The same thing. I could… you could say… They’re saying. And your whole… it’s not the same. Your government…

PIERS MORGAN: What’s the difference?

TUCKER CARLSON: Hold on. I’ll tell you what the difference is. Your government is saying that some opinions are so inflammatory that they inspire people to commit acts of violence.

PIERS MORGAN: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. That is a definition that justifies censorship.

PIERS MORGAN: If you want my honest opinion, some of the ones who’ve gone to prison should not be in prison.

TUCKER CARLSON: How about insating hatred?

PIERS MORGAN: Well, it depends what your insanity people can do.

TUCKER CARLSON: How do you measure hatred? It… I… Do you have a hatred meter? Me? Does… does UK government? I mean, you’re defending it. So…

PIERS MORGAN: No. No. I’m not defending it. I’m… I’m… I’m literally telling you I’m not defending that. I’m saying there are people who’ve been put in prison.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why don’t you overthrow your government? It’s a… tear… tyrannical government.

PIERS MORGAN: I will always support people’s right to have hateful views. That’s fine. I don’t agree with the government. But it’s a crime. I don’t agree with that. Right? But it depends what they’re saying.

TUCKER CARLSON: What are you doing to impose the tyranny of the people?

PIERS MORGAN: If they are incitement of hatred makes people go and act commit acts of violence and you intended to, that should be a crime. You shouldn’t incite people to go and commit acts of violence.

TUCKER CARLSON: But if I say something that the government doesn’t like, and this is, of course, it’s all self-preservation here. They’re not… no one is ever penalized for attacking. If the… if you get up and you say, I hate Vladimir Putin and all Russians, you’re not going to go to jail in the UK for that because that’s the official policy of your government. You wouldn’t go to Putin. No. No. No. But you wouldn’t… They can lynch Russians, and you… they’re really like…

PIERS MORGAN: But you’re right to say that. Yeah. But you asked me earlier. Well, if you said you hate immigrants, you wouldn’t go to prison for… If you said that they’re all over there in that hotel, go and throw fire bombs at it, that should be a crime. Shouldn’t it?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. If you’re telling people… if you’re telling people to…

PIERS MORGAN: So that’s what most of these cases involve.

TUCKER CARLSON: No. Go and check that. That’s not what it said. Actually… That’s not true. So the cases you’re talking about are people who’ve been in prison. That incites hatred isn’t just harmful, it can be illegal. So my criteria…

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. But I’m talking about your government, and I’m asking why… I’m sorry. I don’t agree with it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s dictatorship from what I can tell.

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t… yes. I’m not… that dictatorship. The government is saying things that we hate are illegal.

TUCKER CARLSON: Should I put you in person?

PIERS MORGAN: Half agreeing with you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Good. Right? So what are you doing to change it?

PIERS MORGAN: So you’ve got a prime minister now. On my… so regularly thing, I think it’s wrong.

TUCKER CARLSON: But at a certain point, don’t people have a right to do what the American colonists did, and that’s to throw off tyranny because their rights are inherent. They’re given by God because they’re human beings.

PIERS MORGAN: So you want them to be violent?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course not. I’m totally opposed about it. You’re the one who was justifying firebombing stuff. That’s the example you just gave. Wasn’t it conducted with violence?

PIERS MORGAN: Of course not.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you should be single-minded in getting a government that permits people to live like human beings, not like slaves. Right?

PIERS MORGAN: I don’t think anyone should be able to use on social media. They shouldn’t be using rhetoric which is inciting violence, period. Hate, I think this idea of what is hate is a much more complex thing. I don’t feel comfortable if somebody believes in free speech and people saying hateful things and being put in prison. It’s wrong.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. It happens. Well, inciting violence is an absurd standard because and this… they tried to take me out many times with this. Some wacko will go shoot innocents and be like, he watched this show or…

PIERS MORGAN: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: He had the same opinions as you. It’s like, I couldn’t be more against violence. I’m mad at my government because it funds violence around the world.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Yeah. So inciting violence is just a way to get your critics to shut up.

TUCKER CARLSON: It depends. You need to loot their country and crack it. Is it for the… my say to people here, can you come and stop talking?

PIERS MORGAN: Okay. But that’s… Right? That’s not exciting. That’s like directing. It’s like being a criminal master. I think you’ll find… I look, I may be wrong, but I’m rarely…

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. You are.

PIERS MORGAN: I’m rarely wrong in… in, linguistic masses. I think you’ll find the definition of inciting and directing is not dissimilar.

TUCKER CARLSON: You know as well as I, and I don’t know why you would defend it, that your government is stifling criticism of itself, of its own illegitimate leadership using law enforcement.

PIERS MORGAN: I think in relation to hate crime, yes. They’ve overreached on that. In… in relation to using social media…

TUCKER CARLSON: What is your country? We had riots last summer in Kentucky. And that’s very unpopular with the native population. Always has been. Always has been. And the government for forty years has told them in increasing volume to shut up and stop complaining. And now it’s putting them in jail for complaining about it. That’s… that’s the truth.

PIERS MORGAN: That is not as simplistic as that.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course, it’s not as simplistic as that. Of course not. I agree. I’m overgeneralizing. By the way, you wouldn’t have a country without a flood of really?

PIERS MORGAN: Without a flood of immigrants, America wouldn’t exist.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you’re not America. You have a native population.

PIERS MORGAN: No. But… but why would you have… since the beginning. Why would you object to the concept of a flood of immigrants? You literally got built on it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, look what happened to your country. Everybody in your country.

PIERS MORGAN: Well, but my country is by its nature different.

TUCKER CARLSON: On the premise of immigrants. You’re a monarchy run by the head of your church.

PIERS MORGAN: There’s a monarchy here.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. And they’re living as they should, which is consistent with their values, and your country isn’t. So that’s all I’m saying. A monarchy.

The British Monarchy and Christianity

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I think the king’s a fine man.

PIERS MORGAN: Really? My king.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes. What has he done to preserve England?

PIERS MORGAN: Preserve England?

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

PIERS MORGAN: What do you mean?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t know. I mean, it…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, he’s a Christian. He’s… He’s the head of the… what is… Head… he’s the head of the church in England.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. He does. Yeah. How’s… how’s church attendance?

PIERS MORGAN: He goes quite regularly.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m a little shocked dude. You had a Christian country, now you don’t. So…

PIERS MORGAN: Well, we have a far… not a win. That’s a failure. We have a far less Christian country. I agree.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. I’m upset about that.

British Politics and Keir Starmer

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s a good question. Ask you, Keir Starmer seems like the most… now that Trudeau’s gone, the most unpopular leader in the West. He’s certainly gone from, winning with a big majority last summer to…

PIERS MORGAN: to being incredibly unpopular very quickly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can he hang on? You got four more years of this ish. Is that right?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I would say that there’s a reasonable chance he will contest at the next election in four years time. It depends really then how the next year goes. I mean, I’ve never seen anyone lose such political capital so quickly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

PIERS MORGAN: And he did it because he came in and decided that the strategy he would do is to say the Tories were so awful. The country is now in a terrible state, so bad that we’re going to have to do all these punitive taxes, and we’re going to have to whack the pensioners, and we’re going to have to whack the farmers and punish all these groups of people. And everyone was like, wow, you’ve waited fourteen years in opposition and this is what you do.

TUCKER CARLSON: What do farmers do wrong? I never understood that. They make our food. I mean, it’s ridiculous. Most of them live literally… Because British food is not good? Is that what’s that about?

PIERS MORGAN: Most of them lose money… farmers and the idea he created the impression that a lot of pensioners can afford it. A lot of farmers can afford it. Actually, most of them can’t. Most of them can’t. So why would you target farm… I mean, it’s just… Inexplicable.

TUCKER CARLSON: But it’s happened throughout Europe and the United States…

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Attacking farmers. And it seems like part of it.

TUCKER CARLSON: It should reward farmers. Farmers are the lifeblood of any civilized…

PIERS MORGAN: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: But if you’re looking big picture, if you’re opposed to famine and you’re for human flourishing and people, then you’d want to do whatever you could to have enough food.

PIERS MORGAN: I agree.

TUCKER CARLSON: And if country by country by country, Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, Holland, they’re all attacking farmers, United States. Maybe there’s a bigger anti-human agenda at work. Does it… do you… do you see…

PIERS MORGAN: I just think there’s a… it’s a pretty dumb political agenda that’s been pursued so far.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s not just dumb. It’s like weird.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Of all the groups she’s attacked, white farmer. Makes no sense.

TUCKER CARLSON: It does make sense though, doesn’t it?

PIERS MORGAN: Why?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, clearly, there’s an effort to reduce the human population. If you’re… if all these countries…

PIERS MORGAN: Do you think he wants to starve the Brits and kill us?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t know. I… I don’t… you know, you can’t assess the motives of individuals. They’re unknowable.

PIERS MORGAN: He’s trying to starve the British people.

TUCKER CARLSON: Okay. I… I… I don’t know him. I don’t know what he’s trying to do. It’s all I’m talking. No. No. No. No. No. No. You… no. You come on. Look around the world. Government after government after government around the world is endorsing policies that they know will reduce birth rates, is attacking agriculture and is allowing, I don’t know, drugs and food that kill people and make them less healthy. So if you add that all up, you don’t have to know their motives. You just look at the effects and you’re like, the effect is to kill people. What is going on here? Do you ever wonder that?

PIERS MORGAN: Crap governance by a serious system around. It’s like…

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. Every country is like, you know, we saw people kill themselves.

PIERS MORGAN: Mhmm.

TUCKER CARLSON: What… how would you ever come up with that? At a time when we need more people, not less.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. What do you think that is?

TUCKER CARLSON: Bad governing. I mean, the… the…

PIERS MORGAN: But why is it the same in every country? Why does it… the food thing in particular? Look how fat everyone’s getting.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. Right? I mean, fat, lazy, sedentary, and you’re like, that can’t be good for anyone.

PIERS MORGAN: No. But why is it happening?

TUCKER CARLSON: Bad… bad politicians. But why is every politician in every western country coming to the same set of policies whose effect is fewer children, more unhealthy dead people. Like, what… I mean, you don’t have to be a conspiracy nut to just say I’m looking at just the numbers.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. That is…

TUCKER CARLSON: How many kids per family dropping?

PIERS MORGAN: That is the consequence of all the political actions that have been taken. I agree. I don’t think it’s a mad global conspiracy the way you might be, in fact.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I don’t… I don’t… I don’t know. I don’t know. Interesting. Yeah.

PIERS MORGAN: But I don’t… listen. I know where you’re coming from on this. I don’t believe they’re actually smart enough to do that from the policy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Then why are they all doing it? All of them.

PIERS MORGAN: I think because they’re not very competent and then… and they’re not very good and they’re lazy. But we…

PIERS MORGAN: And they’re going along…

TUCKER CARLSON: Our averages would suggest that, like, I don’t know, the governments of Spain, Belgium, New Zealand, pick another, Mexico would adopt the opposite policies. Like, we’re going to pay you to have more kids, not one of them.

PIERS MORGAN: Here’s what I agree with you about. It’s wrong, and it’s got to change. We need more people, not less. We need better food, not crap food. We need to reduce the size of our human beings whilst increasing populations. Otherwise, the planet’s going to kill itself. Going to basically self implode and die out as Elon Musk is warning. He’s right. I agree with that.

The Future of the Ukraine War

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m going to end on this. We ended on the agreement. What I just want to know… You’re… since you’re, I think, good at predictions, how do you think the war in Ukraine will end?

PIERS MORGAN: I think it will end. I do think Donald Trump will get a deal. I do think in the end that Russia will probably keep most of the land they’ve taken. I personally wish that wasn’t the case, but I think that’s how this gets ended. And I hope that Ukraine get enough guarantees that the rest of their country won’t get taken down the line.

We saw Crimea go. We’ve seen the east go pretty much, and I suspect Vladimir Putin, I believe, will try and take the rest of it. I may be wrong. I hope I’m wrong. I hope it gets a deal gets done soon because too many people are dying. I heard the other day that a hundred thousand people on that battlefield died in six weeks on both sides collectively. I mean, this is a horrendous… it’s been the stuff you saw at the song. Right? I mean, it’s like…

TUCKER CARLSON: Totally agree, but do you think it’s kind of… I… I strongly agree with you, and I have for two and a half years. But why is it only now that we’re getting sort of more realistic casualty figures? How could a government fund a war without knowing how many people died in that war?

PIERS MORGAN: You think the Ukrainians have not been telling the truth about it?

TUCKER CARLSON: I think the US and British governments have both lied about it and kept those numbers from the public. And I feel like that’s a crime.

PIERS MORGAN: They should tell the truth. They should be transparent. If that’s the case, it’s wrong.

TUCKER CARLSON: I hope you’ll go back to Great Britain and grab them by the throat and make them tell the truth.

PIERS MORGAN: You know what… may… you made me think go back to Britain and make us jolt us into action. You know what I like about the Trump thing in the last week? Just the sense of hope, optimism, dynamism. Three. Even the bit before the election when he went down to watch one of Elon Musk’s rockets launch. And just the fact that America’s back in the business of going into space, aiming to go to the moon, aiming to go to Mars. Yes.

Where’s that in my country? Where is that kind of dynamism? Where is someone hitting the ground with two hundred things they want to do? Bang bang bang bang bang bang bang. I agree. You may not agree with all them, but my god, the energy of Trump is expending the dynamism, the aspiration, the… the… the thing of making America great again. I… I got a feeling this time around. Trump’s going to have a very good four years. I’m not so convinced about my country and I want to get that kind of oomph and energy and dynamism… I think that’s in Britain because I don’t disagree with a lot of the characterization you’ve had. And we are a country in the doldrums right now. We are.

TUCKER CARLSON: And it solves a lot of problems. I think that’s really smart. Yeah. You know, the energy, the attitude… All of it. Why are people doing heroin in the first place?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would you want to do fentanyl?

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because you’re hopeless.

PIERS MORGAN: We have a terrible drugs problem…

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I agree.

PIERS MORGAN: In our country. Terrible. You have a bad drug problem in America.

TUCKER CARLSON: And you solve it with attitude.

PIERS MORGAN: Yeah. You do.

TUCKER CARLSON: Piers Morgan, thank you for taking all this time. I enjoyed it. It’s great to see you in Saudi Arabia.

PIERS MORGAN: It was still a game sometime. Thank you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Thanks so much.

PIERS MORGAN: Enjoyed it.

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