Transcript: Rep. Anna Paulina Luna’s Interview on Joe Rogan Experience Podcast #2365

Do you want to lose your security clearance? What is there this level of crazy that people brand that will stick with you and ruin your career?

JOE ROGAN: But doesn’t he have instrumentation on his jet?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, at the time, right. So an older platform, but he really didn’t want to even talk about it.

The Eglin Air Force Base Investigation

And I bring that up because now with our investigation and the task force that I run, actually the reason why the task force was formed was because of an event that happened at Eglin Air Force Base where both myself, Representative Matt Gaetz, and Representative Tim Burchett actually had responded and gone to investigate multiple Air Force pilots that had come forward in regards to UAP incidences that had occurred. And they were alleging that the Air Force was covering it up.

JOE ROGAN: Interesting.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yes, that was that. And I’m happy to go into detail on that one. But what I will tell you is the stuff that I saw at Eglin, how the military responded, me being a former service member, and then ultimately what I saw with the pushback of the military not even wanting to share with Congress information, which is a big problem because when you have Congress that’s supposed to be the advocate and voice for the American people, the oversight body, and you’re being denied access not just from a base commander, but high level up at the Pentagon, even Secretary of Defense, it’s a problem.

Advanced Technology and Physics-Defying Capabilities

JOE ROGAN: Do you think that it’s possible that these are U.S. vehicles that are top secret?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I definitely think that there’s a level of advanced technology that the US Government has and I think that that tech can be housed within the defense contract realm. And of course some information is going to be classified.

But I can also tell you, and this might sound crazy, but based on our investigations and stuff that we’ve seen, there is definitely something that I think would rival what we know currently with physics and a tech that potentially is out there that we don’t have the ability to reproduce because it would basically be like dropping a cell phone back during the time of maybe caveman. So we just don’t have the tech to develop it yet.

What I can also tell you is based on our interviews, and this has been something that you can go back and watch with the congressional hearings, but I was actually able to ask some of the witnesses, “What are these things?” And they keep saying interdimensional.

And then when you talk about the interdimensional aspect of preexisting, maybe outside of what we currently know as our own dimension, that stuff can all sound crazy. But at the end of the day, my job as an investigator is to receive all the information, decipher it, and then ultimately, from a congressional aspect, if you do have contractors that are withholding information or operating outside of the purview of the federal government, I mean, there’s budgetary issues, but there’s definitely something that I can tell you with confidence that exists that we don’t know how to explain currently.

JOE ROGAN: So when you say that it operates outside our understanding of physics, what specifically are you saying?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Like, what happened to, I guess, break it down in simple terms is that I think that some of the tech that exists, that whatever these things have, these energy things. They call them interdimensional beings, I think that they can actually operate through the time spaces that we currently have.

And that’s not something that I came up with on my own. That’s based on stuff that we’ve seen, that’s based on information that we’ve been told. And then also too, I think that there’s this historical aspect of, you know, this gets into the deeper theories and concepts of religion and I think the history that we currently know.

And that spins off into another topic of, you know, you have the modern day Bible, you have this aspect of bibles that are books of the Bible that have been removed that explain and touch on these topics. I think that we’re in a time and age where you have such a vast amount of information that we have access to via social media, via your cell phone, via the Internet. And so it’s really changing the way that we understand the origins of life and the spiritual reality that we know.

Witness Testimony and Evidence

JOE ROGAN: When you say interdimensional beings, that they know that these are interdimensional beings, how do they know that?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So based on testimony, would be based on witnesses that have come forward. But what I can tell you is…

JOE ROGAN: Two witnesses just were told that they were?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No. That they’ve seen things. And what I can tell you without getting into classified conversations is that there have been incidences that I believe where very credible people have reported that there have been movement outside of time and space.

JOE ROGAN: That’s very vague.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: So unfortunately.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, yeah. Look, have I seen a portal open? No. Have I seen a spaceship personally? No. Have I seen evidence of this? Yes. Have I seen photo documentation of aircraft that I believe were not made by mankind? Yes. Is there historical significance to this? Yes. Is there multiple events that go back to, I would argue, maybe even before the time of Christ that have documented this in text? Yes.

So do I believe that the government has access to certain technology? Yes, to an extent. And I believe that certain contractors potentially have back engineered this tech. I think that that’s what can explain the advancements that we’re seeing.

But I also believe that this is a dangerous level of hidden information from the American people. Because if you have an aspect of the federal government which I can tell you, I, with two other members of Congress, were denied access to information at Eglin Air Force Base pertaining to whistleblowers because of the fact. And we can get into that story and what happened at Eglin in a second, but we were denied access and told that we don’t have security clearance or the read-in authority on a special access program.

That’s a problem because I’m supposed to represent and be an investigative body. And you have then people who are unelected that are operating basically in secrecy. And that’s a problem. That’s a big problem.

Intelligence Community Overreach

JOE ROGAN: And so how do these people have the authority to do that?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I think it’s been decades of classified secret information and also this aspect of the intelligence community that’s been empowered and it’s serendipitous with timing, because when you talk about the intelligence communities and what they’ve done essentially to the trust in this country with the American people, I think this goes all the way back even into JFK, with how they basically have operated outside of the purview of Congress and basically, to an extent, have gone rogue. Up until recently. You’re seeing a big push and pull to try to rein in these intelligence agencies currently.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. So I want to bring it back to evidence. You said that you’ve seen evidence. Like what kind of evidence have you seen?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I have seen photos. I have seen…

JOE ROGAN: What have you seen photos of?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So I was in a SCIF and I can’t discuss all that was in a SCIF. But what I can tell you is based on the photos that I’ve seen, I’m very confident that there’s things out there that have not been created by mankind.

JOE ROGAN: It seems crazy that people have access to information that shows that there’s something outside of us that is more intelligent, at least more capable than we are, and they hide it from everybody else.

Government Disinformation and Project Blue Book

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: What I can tell you is that when you have thousands upon thousands of people around the planet throughout time that have reported something, right? To say that those people are crazy, to say that, you know, the whole concept of even just asking the question, that you might not necessarily be psychologically sound, that in itself, you know, that’s a disinformation campaign to get people to shut up about it. And that’s a problem. We know that the US Government has not exactly been clean. And a lot of what they’ve done with the American people, specifically to the topic of UFOs, you have…

JOE ROGAN: Which makes you think that it’s probably because there’s something there. If you think about the motivation they had with Project Blue Book, when J. Allen Hynek was running Project Blue Book, this specific intention was to discredit all stories.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And he ended up ultimately, though, after all of his investigations, becoming someone that was like, “I think there’s something here.” But that’s true, by the way. A lot of people might not necessarily go onto Google and look up that information, but you can actually look up the declassified reports from Project Blue Book.

What’s also interesting, though, is when we’re talking about tech, right? The ability for this tech being that it exists to change dependence for entire governments on things like fossil fuel, et cetera, you know, it’s… Look, I think everyone has a moral obligation to do what they think is right, okay?

And so if you’re in a position of power and you see something wrong and you’re not addressing it, I think, you know, this in itself, getting the truth out there for people to decide for themselves. I’m not telling you what to believe. I’m just telling you in our investigations and what we are pushing for in regards to transparency, I would like to see the federal government roll out some of the stuff that we’ve been given access to, because I think that that information belongs in the hands of the American people.

And it’s not even just the US Government. I mean, there’s other countries around the world that have done certain things like this. Now, look, I’ve had a lot of crazy people show up at my office and say, you know, “I’ve been to Mars. You know, I have a chip in my brain.” All this stuff.

JOE ROGAN: They all have chips.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We had this one guy that showed up that was trying to give us a USB. He’s like, “Put this in your computer. They’re going to kill me for this,” runs away. And I’m like, “I’m not putting that in my computer.”

But based on our investigations, what I will tell you is, you know, there’s been two members of Congress that are actually helping to lead out these investigations with me. And the reason I say that is because up until last Congress, if you even said the word UAP or UFO, people actually told us that if we went forward with these investigations that we were going to ruin our political careers.

And so, you know, we’re in the mindset of, “Well, why wouldn’t we ask these questions?” And also too, if no one wants to touch it, there has to be something here. Right?

JOE ROGAN: Right.

UAP Investigations and Congressional Transparency

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And so in these investigations, I mean, the amount of people that will come up to us, very successful people, to multiple members of Congress that believe the same thing, it’s definitely changed in regards to the stigma that used to exist about disclosure and all this.

And so what we’re trying to do currently was there’s a big documentary that was filmed about a year and a half ago. And we’re trying to get a screening up on Capitol Hill. But look, I think a lot of people say, “Well, this is a distraction from everything else happening in the country right now.” And all I’m simply trying to say is it’s not a distraction.

The people that are kind of helping to divulge all this information, you have an intelligence community, you know, Tulsi Gabbard, Radcliffe, Kash Patel, they have been truly, in regards to our other investigations, extremely transparent and wanting to get this information out. But it doesn’t mean that within these intelligence communities there isn’t pushback.

So part of the reason why the task force was formed pertaining to things like UAP, pertaining to things like the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, pertaining to things like the JFK, MLK and RFK investigations, is because even though we don’t hold declassification authority, what we’re trying to do is push these agencies and be, if you will, the pit bull and the attack dog on trying to get this information released. And to a lot of these agencies, credit to them, they’ve been extremely transparent. And we have gotten one specifically on the JFK stuff and we’re still looking to declassify and ask specifically on the UAP topic.

JOE ROGAN: What would be the rationale for keeping a photograph of a known absolute, not of this world craft from the American people or from the world? Why would anybody think that that would be the smart thing to do is to limit the access of that information to a very small amount of people?

Faith, Disclosure, and Government Secrecy

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I think that part of the fear is that you have advisors that think that, you know, the American people or humanity might not be able to handle it. There’s this protective complex. But then also too, I think when you are talking about these things for a lot of people, I think that it kind of can rock your world a little bit in regards to where you stand in a faith perspective and then also to an aspect of, “Well, how do you even begin to explain it?”

And all I’m going to say is look, and we can go into some of the books that were removed from what we know as the modern day Bible. But I read through the book of Enoch multiple times. And I’m not saying that these things are angels. Okay, that’s not at all what I’m saying. But what I am saying is that depending on where you are in regards to your whole perspective on whether or not God exists, I believe in God, I’m a Christian, there has to have been and there’s admission that there was other creations that God made, but that we were the most prized creation.

And so I think that this can open up a bigger topic of discussion. What I will say is that what’s been interesting is, and I’ve had a mass array of people that have come in, right. We have people that come in that claim that you can use this ability to basically dog whistle these things in from a psychic ability.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I’ve heard people say that.

Interdimensional Phenomena and Government Research

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And I think that there’s something there. Otherwise they wouldn’t necessarily be able to provide some of the video evidence that they have. But then that also brings up the question of if these things are interdimensional, which we’ve had witnesses testify to, to members of Congress and that was all publicly out there, that would then bring up the whole, “Well, if this is really transcending dimension, the power of what you say, thought, all of that.”

And then, you know, you can look into our own government’s declassified documents that the CIA had on different experiments. I mean you can literally, last week I was going through actually on a Friday night, just put my son down and I was going through some of the declassified documents. You go to CIA.gov reading room and you can see all the declassified documents.

And so I believe it’s called Stargate and it was talking about, you know, the basically psychological experiments where they were trying to basically remote view and all that. Why would our own government be looking into that if there wasn’t something there? And so I’m appreciative to all that information being publicly out there. But I think this whole idea and stigma of trying to make it sound crazy when people actually have these questions that needs to stop, which is why the task force is in existence. And then also too they need to release information.

JOE ROGAN: If I was going to play devil’s advocate, I would say that the government would look into that to find out if there’s anything there. And that would probably take a long time if they’re really being careful. So if I was going to fund a program, if someone told me that there’s some people in Russia that can remote view military sites in America, I’d be like, “Are you sure?” And like, “Yeah, yeah, there’s a technique involved and we know the technique and we want to fund some sort of a study to see if we can do it,” I’m like, “Let’s go. What do you need?” Because if maybe it’s real.

So I don’t buy that they wouldn’t spend money on it unless it’s real. I say they would spend money on it. To find out if you’re really looking out for national security, right? You’ve got 300 plus million people that you’re responsible for. You got to dot your I’s and cross your T’s. And if I’m good at my job and I’m not an egomaniac, I’m going to go, “Maybe there’s some shit I don’t know.”

Remote Viewing and Intelligence Operations

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, there’s looking into it and then there’s expanding, right? And so if you look at all those declassified files, you know, you can pull up and this is just wild, but there’s one where I was looking through and they had basically, you know, the Coast Guard had called in. There was a ship that they had been given information on that was running drugs.

And so they called in one of their remote viewers and they’re trying to give coordinates of the ship and actually locate these things. And actually I was laughing because I was reading this off the website and I’m telling my husband, “Imagine, you know, you’re trying to run drugs and then all of a sudden you have some weirdo at Langley in a basement. They’re like, ‘No, just here’s the coordinates.’ You know, beam me up, Scotty.”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I don’t know if they write things down or type them out or what, but I talked to Hal Puthoff about it and he said they used it to very specifically find the location of a downed Russian craft within a couple kilometers, which is nuts if you think about the area where this thing crashed. It’s remote wilderness, the middle of nowhere. Russia hadn’t found it yet. Apparently we found it first. According to Hal Puthoff.

It’s just because I haven’t done it, and because I don’t know that it’s real, doesn’t mean it’s not real. And this is a problem with people. They don’t want to get duped and they don’t want to look stupid. They don’t want to look naive. And so they dismiss things. They dismiss that there might be frequencies that you don’t tune into all the time, and someone might get really good at that and they might be able to see things remotely.

Telepathy and Consciousness Research

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I think that this gets into the bigger discussion of what do we know, right? Going back to some of these books that were moved, there’s a good podcast right now called the Telepathy Tapes and it talks about how some non speaking or nonverbal autistic kids actually are exhibiting telepathy.

JOE ROGAN: You mean the Telepathy Tapes?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, sorry, the Telepathy Tapes. Nonverbal autistic kids are exhibiting telepathy. You know, this concept again, if you were to talk about it 20 years ago, people will call you crazy. But you know, I think based on what we’re seeing now, based on the fact that our own government’s looked into it, based on the stuff that you were saying, I mean, you can find all this information publicly available and it’s out there and I think that there’s something to it.

And so, you know, we’re seeing, and we’ve heard this is in non classified settings, we’ve heard from people that have come forward that are saying, “You know, we’re being able to via meditation, we’re essentially downloading information and we can communicate with these things.” Granted, you know, when I’m sitting in my congressional office and I’m hearing this, I take it with a grain of salt because we do get a lot of crazy people.

But when you have people that are high level executives, very successful, clean cut, not on drugs, they’re coming in and they’re telling you this stuff and then, you know, you’re kind of cross referencing it with various people in intelligence agencies, I just, I think that there’s something there. We need to be at least open to hearing the discussion and the argument for these things.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, for sure. I mean, like I said, if there’s a photo out there. I think you owe humanity a service. You’re supposed to release that photograph. There’s no reason why a small group of people in the government should have photo conclusive evidence that aliens are real. That’s crazy.

David Grusch and Whistleblower Threats

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And there’s an over classification aspect of this too, right? If you’re serving in the military and you’re taking a photo on your personal device or a video on your personal device, that shouldn’t be the purview of the federal government and either which way, I mean, there’s been now so much stuff. There’s, granted there’s been a lot of fake stuff put out there, but the stuff that is legitimate that we are seeing, the stuff that we had people testify to in our congressional hearings, I mean, that’s not a joke.

And what’s even more interesting to this is that I was actually able to talk to David Grusch, who now is actually working with the task force to kind of chase down a lot of these leads in regards to some of these contractors that allegedly have this tech, right? So in talking with him, again, not in a SCIF, we were able to actually flesh out that prior to him testifying that he actually received very real threats against his life and his wife’s life. He’s a sound guy.

And then shortly after he testified, there’s this massive smear operation that was launched against him to try to discredit his testimony. And so, you know, again, going into, “Well, if this stuff wasn’t real or if he wasn’t telling the truth, why would there be this massively orchestrated effort to, you know, completely just disprove what he was trying to say or to discredit his actions and his testimony.”

And so it is kind of coming full circle, right? Going back to what the task force has been able to find out. I mean, we’re conducting these investigations simultaneously and we’re doing this in addition to everything that we have to do as members of Congress. Right. So although I would love to just dedicate my full time and attention to this, we still have to balance it out. And so I’ve again had some great investigators who are working with us on oversight, as well as a lot of cooperation from the intelligence agencies. And we are going to be asking for this information to be declassified, at least information that has been shown to us.

The Age of Disclosure Documentary

JOE ROGAN: I think the first break in the wall was that 2017 New York Times report where they were talking about it in logical, sensible language that these things might be from another world. But I think that movie that you’re discussing, which is the Age of Disclosure, right?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, I haven’t seen it. Have you seen it?

JOE ROGAN: It’s very good. Yeah, it’s very good. It’s very good. And it doesn’t even have any UFO footage. I mean, maybe a little bit.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s just testimony.

JOE ROGAN: It’s just testimony. And at the end of it you kind of draw this conclusion like, “Oh, this makes sense.” What they’re essentially saying is one of the problems is if they have been funding these secret programs, then for all these years they’ve been misappropriating money.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh yeah. And they’ve been lying to Congress.

Congressional Oversight and Accountability

JOE ROGAN: And that’s super illegal.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Very illegal. But you know, is Congress going to do anything about it? Because it’s not the first time. We have the ability, and this is the most frustrating thing.

So as a, this is my second term in Congress now, but as a first term member of Congress, you know, when you get elected to Congress, you would think that they would bring you in and they’d say, “Okay, this is how you do the legislation.” No, you get elected, you show up to kind of a crash course for about like a week and a half on how to not get in trouble with ethics and then you’re basically wined and dined by lobbyists.

They don’t actually tell you how to do the legislation. Basically the only rules that you’re told are never vote down a rule which is a procedural motion to bring legislation to the floor and don’t really ever vote against your party. Within the first week I broke both rules and so I was on the naughty list, per usual.

JOE ROGAN: They don’t tell you how to do it. That’s kind of crazy.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, they tell you basically those are the two rules and don’t go against that and you won’t have any issues.

JOE ROGAN: Those are big rules though.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, because it’s like, you know, you’re supposed to represent your constituency. So if you have people calling your office saying “don’t you vote for this?” and then you vote against it, it’s like people forget that you’re supposed to represent. Right. Representative instead of just do what the party wants.

But you know, there are mechanisms that have existed since Thomas Jefferson who wrote our rule manual that enable us to actually pass legislation and actually hold agencies and people accountable from a punitive perspective. And I don’t know if you were tracking, but I brought a vote on the former Attorney General for basically refusing to testify to Congress and respond to a subpoena. And that was called inherent contempt.

A lot of Congress was like, “What the hell is inherent contempt?” It hadn’t been done since the early 1900s. And I actually read it in the rule manual, and I read the rule manual twice. So it’s crazy what happens when you read books. But we were able to find this out, and it was a mechanism that Congress can use to actually basically send the sergeant at arms to go arrest people.

Mass Amnesty and Whistleblower Protection

JOE ROGAN: Okay, so one of the things that this documentary was calling for that I think is the only logical way to solve this is a mass amnesty for these people that misappropriated money and…

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Or whistleblowers.

JOE ROGAN: Or whistleblowers. The whistleblowers thing is crazy. They leave them alone. Come on. Of course. Everybody should know this stuff. The real crime is you keeping this secret from humanity. That’s the real crime. Okay? The other stuff is horseshit. It’s just interpretations of what you’re writing down on paper. You’re making up rules.

But if you ask the general public how they feel this should go, a rational, normal person would say, “There’s no way the defense contractor should be the only people who know that we’re not alone. Fuck you.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Especially when we’re facing a massive deficit and you see that they’re like, the Pentagon hasn’t been able to pass the audit, and I don’t know how many…

JOE ROGAN: All that stuff is great, but just for humanity. Just for humanity. That is a giant piece of information that no one should have. No one should secretly keep information that would change our entire perspective on our existence.

Congressional Resistance to Disclosure

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s definitely wrong that it’s happening for sure. What I will tell you, though, is the issue that we have with bringing forward legislation that would give mass amnesty and pardon to these people is that there are people within the intelligence community and within Congress on both sides that will try to… If you come forward with this, and I’ll tell you a very plain, prime example of this in a moment, that they will block it.

They don’t want it to pass. They will stop it from even coming to the floor. They won’t bring legislation that will address it because they want to keep this information secret. So, Representative Tim Burchett…

JOE ROGAN: Why do they want to keep the information secret?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Because I think that their mouthpiece is in control of the deep state, and that’s a thing. And it exists on both sides, okay?

JOE ROGAN: So someone will come to them with marching orders.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: One hundred percent. Representative Tim Burchett, before I got elected, was kind of on his own little island in regards to the UAP stuff. And he will himself tell you that, you know, this is one hundred percent a thing, and that these defense contractors and what he believes, you know, the Pentagon not passing all these black budget programs.

He will tell you he’s been leading out this effort way before I got there. He had a piece of legislation that was supposed to enable the FAA to report and develop a different reporting procedure for UAP stuff. And at the time, the chairman of intel ensured that that legislation was not brought forward, was stopped.

The piece of legislation that actually passed out of the Senate really had no teeth to it. And then Representative Burchett drew a primary challenger that was being backed by the chairman of Intel. And so, you know, when you are touching these, it’s like that meme where you have that stork that’s like, “don’t touch this.” And then the little foot comes out. It’s kind of like what we’re doing.

And it’s not exactly easy because you will take heat from both sides. But there has been a good group that’s been assembled that’s bicameral, meaning it’s both in the House and the Senate, and bipartisan, meaning both Democrats and Republicans are saying this should actually happen.

JOE ROGAN: Are they publicly talking about not releasing the information or is all this stuff done in secrecy?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s done behind the scenes.

JOE ROGAN: Because if they had to do it publicly, if they had to announce their position on it publicly, it would be very damaging, I think, to anybody’s political career on the right or the left.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: People would be pissed. Right?

JOE ROGAN: Well, they’re pissed because I’m pissed, because if they’ve had it for this long, if they really did recover something as early as 1947…

Recent Developments and Briefings

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I can tell you for us specifically, we actually were made aware some people had come forward that said that they wanted to brief. So about two years ago, when all this kicked off, we had requested briefings from AARO, that’s in charge of kind of compiling the investigative aspect of UAP stuff.

And by the way, from the get go, even in talking to AARO, I was like, “This organization is literally a BS organization. They’re never going to tell us anything.” And every interaction that we had in the SCIF, I was like, “This is a nothing burger.”

But then these people came forward and said that they were actually denied. They were told to not brief our group specifically on this topic, and that it was from at the time, members of House leadership, but they wouldn’t say who. And so I actually went with another member of Congress and confronted multiple people and they all denied denying us access. So it’s done behind the scenes, you’ll see these random little troll blockages that might pop up.

But what I can tell you is that with the new administration, specifically with the FBI, specifically with ODNI, we have gotten transparency to where previously we would have been stonewalled. We were actually given briefings. And so what I will tell you is we are going to push for the information that we sought to be out there for the American people to see.

The Disclosure Process

JOE ROGAN: So do you think that the whole idea of disclosure is maybe a multiple step, very agonizing, frustratingly slow process rather than a big dump of all the information that they’ve had from Roswell to the Aztec one to this? Apparently there’s a whole slew. I don’t know if it’s Aztec, I forget the name of it. But there was another. During that same time period, there was a really prominent UFO recovery thing that was not as publicized as the one in Roswell.

The big mistake with the Roswell one was the newspaper printed it. So then they had to backtrack and then they had to do the press conference where they had scattered pieces of a weather balloon that didn’t look anything like a UFO, and then there’s nothing.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: But meanwhile they flew the wreckage to Wright Field. They flew the wreckage and Truman met them there, supposedly.

The Vandenberg Air Base Incident

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I can tell you in our hearing we were actually notified. And you can pull this up. I think it was one of the witnesses had talked about what had happened at Vandenberg Air Base where there was this thing that appeared over the base. It actually had multiple blotters reporting on it. It had phone calls into law enforcement from hundreds of people.

And whatever had appeared over the base was basically bigger than a football field and basically a cube, a red cube with some weird thing in the center of it. I actually had our witness draw this out. This guy is sober as a priest. I mean, was a great pilot. And he’s talking about all this.

And so, you know, you talk about this. It seems like a sci-fi movie, but based on the evidence that we’ve seen, I don’t have any reason to believe that these people are lying. Based on the evidence that I’ve seen from our own government, I think that there’s something there that the American people deserve to have access to.

And so I’ve been… This is not just on this topic, but again in other topics as well. This has been my perspective: transparency is what builds trust. Other governments have revealed certain information on it. To think that we are the only life form on this planet or in this galaxy, I think is a little bit crazy given, you know, the fact that I also think God exists and that there’s other creations.

But then again, you get into this aspect of, you know, why is it that you also have this aspect of a certain religion that has been very controlled and I think rolled out in a certain aspect. And you know, when you have certain books that are removed because they don’t think that people should have access to this information or know it, you know, why remove a book from a Bible, right?

Biblical Texts and Hidden Knowledge

JOE ROGAN: Did Wes Hoff, did he touch on that? Did he talk about that? Are there people that don’t believe the Book of Enoch was really a part of the Bible? I don’t remember how he discussed the missing books. I think we brought it up, but I don’t remember how. That’s the guy to talk to.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, so what…

JOE ROGAN: That’s the guy to talk to about, you know what I mean? Because you have to really understand the history of the Bible to be able to figure out what’s legitimate, what’s not, why they put it into the New Testament. I had some very erroneous ideas about it until I talked to intelligent people that really, really know the history of it. It’s very strange stuff.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, so from what I gather, and by the way, I’m not a theologian in any capacity, but just from my personal opinion on this, so you have the Ethiopian Orthodox text, which has I think 88 books of the Bible in total, but in the Ethiopian Orthodox text it’s basically kind of the mainline OG version of the Bible.

And then sometime in the 4th century there was actually a group that came together and they removed certain books. And the story goes that Revelations actually had replaced Enoch. And so it’s interesting because when you’re looking kind of full circle on, you know, you hear the stuff that some of these people are talking about and then you see and you read the Book of Enoch, which is a wild read, okay?

And then you look at kind of what our modern day description is of what angels and entities are versus what Enoch was seeing and reporting in his language and ability at that time. I just, I think that there’s a lot that brings you to then ask the question, “Well, why would they remove this information, if it’s truly, you know, written in part of the oldest Bible in the world, why would they then take it out and water it down?”

And I’m not saying that you can’t find God through the new Bible, right? Everyone’s on their own spiritual journey, and I think everyone can pray and you can access God. But I just find that very interesting. And so what I will say is that I want to have the whole kind of picture in front of me. And so I feel like to fully understand A through Z, you kind of have to be able to read it.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Authenticity

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I just don’t know about the history of it. Is there any debate about the reality of that book? Is there any debate about whether or not it was either fraudulent or discredited or something? Yeah, like, why did they. Because I know there was some kind of controversy that Westhoff described. I just can’t remember it.

I just looked through a transcript real quick. I didn’t see you guys discussing Enoch. We were discussing Isaiah and then the Dead Sea Scrolls and stuff like that. I didn’t see Enoch discussion. No. It must have been me privately talking to him about something. Another video that I watched.

The thing about what Wes Huff does that’s so interesting is he really understands the history of the text, the language in which they used, the names in which they chose. And when he breaks it up, one of the things he told us that was the craziest was that the book of Isaiah was exactly the same in the Dead Sea Scrolls as it was a thousand years later. They found one that was a thousand years older and it was direct, it was word for word, verbatim. I’m like, that’s bananas. A thousand year old story that’s exactly the same written that they didn’t know there was a version of it a thousand years ago. And then they find it in these.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Kids, it’s confirmed, it’s nuts.

JOE ROGAN: It’s really weird. It’s really, really weird stuff.

Religious Upbringing and Spiritual Beliefs

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And the fact that this kid, you know, shepherd kid, was able to even find these scrolls that they were set up and you know, just led to that point right in time where he finds this massive, basically admission that the Bible is real.

You can actually look into, you know, there’s a new King James and then you can actually look into the Catholic Bible as well that also has, they call them Apocrypha texts because the King James Bible doesn’t acknowledge them. But there are also other books that are not considered, you know, approved by the King James.

So look, I was on my mom’s side, I was actually raised Catholic and then had my catechism, did all of it. And then on my dad’s side I was raised Christian and then later on Messianic Jew. And so I feel like I kind of have like a good cross section. And I’ve been exposed to a lot of this growing up, but it’s definitely interesting.

And so look, I don’t tell people, like I’m not, I’m not saying that like aliens created mankind. I don’t believe that because I at the end of the day believe that God is responsible for our creation. But I do think that what we’ve been programmed to believe in regards to our ability to be able to use our mind, the spiritual aspect of us really does exist.

And I think that once you kind of remove yourself out of this basically rat race and you can like really reconnect with that, I think that that’s when you kind of realize, hey, there’s a bigger purpose here in life and like, what is our end objective? And if you’re given a position of influence or a position of power and you’re not doing the right thing for humanity, you’re not guiding people, then that’s something that you have to answer for. So I want to make sure that I’m good with guidance.

Ancient Stories and Universal Truths

JOE ROGAN: I hear you. That’s a lot. I think these stories, especially when you get to stories like Noah and the Ark, that these stories exist in basically every religion. They’re real similar. They’re real similar. I think all of these people are trying to document a truth. It’s just. What is that? Truth is where it gets weird. And when it gets to like other gods and giants and giants created man.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, Enoch talks about that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Oh, I know.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Which is crazy. I know.

JOE ROGAN: It’s wild. Wild stuff. If it’s legitimate, it’s wild stuff. And then do you know anything about the Ethiopian church that supposedly has the Ark of the Covenant in it?

The CIA’s Remote Viewing of the Ark of the Covenant

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, I’ve looked into that. I actually wanted to. And again, you’re in the government, you can like get somebody.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So I actually wanted to do a codel to just. But of course, like we’re focusing on other things right now.

JOE ROGAN: Send these seals. Find that fucking seals.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I was like, I need to pay for this for myself. So we’re not using tax free dollars, but just go check it out. What’s interesting is the CIA allegedly located the Ark of the Covenant.

JOE ROGAN: I think the remote viewed.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They remote viewed it. You can actually find that. You should actually find that in Ethiopia. No, not in Ethiopia, but it was in a Middle Eastern country. They weren’t able to locate the actual. I think the New York Post did an article on it where they actually have the handwritten notes on the Ark of the Covenant location and they remote viewed it. You should ask them to pull it up. Yeah, I’m serious about it.

JOE ROGAN: Did they go there and see if they were there?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I don’t know. They did. I don’t know. This is like Indiana Jones.

JOE ROGAN: Decades old CIA documents on Ark of the Covenant resurface amid classified group text spat. What?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Wait, like it was a group text.

JOE ROGAN: Argument that caused this stuff to be.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No, check out. Pull up the New York Post one because they actually have the handwritten notes from the remote viewer that actually documents it.

JOE ROGAN: Okay.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It should be. I think it’s like the New York Post.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so funny.

Analyzing the CIA Documents

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, there you go. Top one. This is wild because it actually goes into descriptions of angels too. And so actually if so in Enoch it talks about. Well, if you scroll down now that’s that you can probably click on the scribed because it’ll show you all the documents from the actual declassified file. This is also on Cat.

JOE ROGAN: What year was this?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: This happened recently. This was like a couple months ago that this Just kind of came all out.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But what year Was this project?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: 1988.

JOE ROGAN: 88.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: 5. December 1988. Wow. So scroll down.

JOE ROGAN: So in 88, they found the Ark of the Covenant.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Allegedly. Allegedly. They remote viewed it. We don’t know if they bought them.

JOE ROGAN: Who was president back then? Reagan.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Go down. Bush Senior. Okay, so scroll down and then you’ll see that. So this is like. So they’re going through in the notes. You have to read it, but you can scroll down. This is kind of.

JOE ROGAN: So this is. He’s like drawing where it is the remote viewer.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So you have like the different things that are describing it. And if you keep going, you’ll see like a cherubim. Keep going.

JOE ROGAN: It’s like showing the peak of a wheel.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Wait, sorry. Go up a little bit. So that’s interesting because if you look into actual. So there’s like a wheel text. If you look into Enoch’s description of angels and Ezekiel 2, I think that that’s kind of a tie, but go down more.

So but yeah, you have like the actual. Here purpose of container. They should have like a cherubim drawing somewhere down here. Oh, yeah, I see. So that would be the seraphim. So it’s just what, the seraphim, how it’s opened. Yeah. So basically when they. They describe the Ark. And so he’s going through describing. So these are the hand notes for. And then actually says that it’s in the Middle Eastern country. The remote viewer describes the clothing in which individuals are in the area. I feel like I’m describing like an Indiana Jones movie. But this is actually from the CIA.

Skepticism About Remote Viewing Results

JOE ROGAN: This image. Scroll back to where that. What is that thing? Is that the corner of the box?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The Covenant. Yeah. He’s describing. If you go up and these are actually the handwritten notes on what was described by the remote viewer. And you have to go through the entire document. But yeah, that’s what’s described surrounding the Ark.

JOE ROGAN: Do you know what they asked him to find?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, yeah, the Ark of the Covenant. You can find it on the dock.

JOE ROGAN: You have to go look for the Ark.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: If you go higher up in the documents, it’s over there.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But if you ask me to go look for the Ark of the Covenant, like, I know what I’m looking for. Right.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, apparently these remember what.

JOE ROGAN: I think it’s going to like, show me that they fucking found it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I don’t. I don’t know if they did, but they.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know if they did either, but it’s like it’s interesting. But it’s not as interesting because you’re saying, show me the Ark of the Covenant. Right. So he’s drawing what we all saw in Indiana Jones, or can you locate it? What year was that? That was before Indiana Jones. No, it had been in the same time period. When did Indiana Jones come out? What a great movie.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The 90s, right?

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’m thinking and like, the first two are the best.

JOE ROGAN: Raiders of the Lost Ark was the first one. That’s the one. What year was that?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: 1981.

JOE ROGAN: Okay, so precursor. So that’s seven years earlier. Everybody saw that movie 100 times. You know what it looks like. You know what the Ark looks like. So if I tell you, go draw me the Ark, where’s it at?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You think?

JOE ROGAN: All we have is some scribbles on paper. Unless they actually went there and found it.

Examining the Mission Details

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, what’s interesting and I should probably ask Radcliffe, like Radcliffe, can you tell me this? I never look at an Ark of the Covenant.

JOE ROGAN: What are you saying, Jamie? It says the mission is to access and describe the target identified by coordinate. And then there’s coordinates. The tasking is to see mission statement training. Target is the Ark of the Covenant. So they did say, go find us the Ark of the Covenant. And then this dude apparently set keep AOL to a minimum. What is that? I don’t know. I saw that on the paper earlier. Have to be careful with editing, though. This does not seem to be a problem at this time. Just something to watch for attained. Excellent sight contact.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Okay, definitely interesting.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s weird that they’re talking about it like it’s a real talent, like someone can actually do it. Mosque domes. Yeah. Target is in a container. This container is in another container. Has another container inside of it. The target is fashioned of wood, gold and silver. The target is similar in shape to aol. So that’s that something of location, right? Is that what it means? Area of location. Area of location. Yeah, that’s it.

Coffin and is decorated with the Seraphim Sea sketch. This target is located somewhere in the Middle east, as the language spoken by individuals present seem to be Arabic. Well, wouldn’t you want someone who could fucking decipher Arabic to do this?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We don’t know how far it went, and I definitely have questions, but this would not be the first time that a government would have looked for something. Especially because people theorized that the Ark of the Covenant had these abilities as a super weapon.

The Ark of the Covenant and Remote Viewing

JOE ROGAN: I know, but I’m saying the remote viewer is limited by his ability to understand the language. Stop, stop. Scroll back up, please. So somewhere in the Middle East, visuals of surrounding buildings indicated that the area. The presence of mosque domes. Individuals in the area were clothed in virtually all white, had black hair and dark eyes. One figure I honed it on wore a mustache. The target is hidden underground. Dark and wet were all aspects of the location of the target.

See, the only problem I ever have with these things is if these places are all controlled by terrorists and zealots, you know, dictators and crazy people over there. If they found out that the Ark was there, they would fucking take it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I think there’s this aspect of, if you look at it from a biblical perspective, no one would be able to access it anyways because it would be protected. Right? That’s what the Bible says.

JOE ROGAN: Cannot be opened until the time is deemed correct. Oh, Jesus. Once the time to open the container, the mechanisms of lock systems will be found to be fairly simple. Individuals opening the container by prying or striking are destroyed by the container’s protectors.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, what’s interesting is, remember in the Bible it always talks about how there had to be…

JOE ROGAN: Through the use of a power unknown to us.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They had to, you know, go through this special process of being considered, you know, holy basically to access it. So all that to say that there’s something out there. Right. I think that obviously God’s real and this job has definitely, you know, put me in a position to where we’re able to help get other truths out there, if you will.

JOE ROGAN: You need to get the truth of that thing out there. They need to find that. How much would change if you found the actual Ark of the Covenant? And you could explain a lot of things. Look, if these Ethiopians have it, which Graham Hancock believes allegedly they do. Yeah, Graham Hancock believes that they do. And he said that these guardians, they all get cataracts, they die of radiation poisoning.

Ethiopian Orthodox Perspectives

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I mean, there’s something to be said about the Ethiopian people as a whole. And going back to the Ethiopian Orthodox text, actually when I first launched this task force, I actually went and I met with an Ethiopian Orthodox pastor, if you will, just to kind of see and explain and ask questions that I can’t exactly go to, you know, the Smithsonian and ask.

And, you know, his response was interesting, especially from their perspective. You know, you have a lot of this aspect of, I think, religion that tries to be doom and gloom. And then in the Ethiopian perspective, he’s like, “First of all, your timeline’s wrong.” And I’m like, “What do you mean your timeline?” He’s like, “Well, the biblical text in modern day Christianity, it’s a little bit off. Right. So we use a completely separate. I think it’s 364 days out of the year” and he’s explaining all of it and he’s like, “But even then. So, you know, we don’t have the perspective of, you know, we are in the end of days, et cetera. But, you know, the way his perspective just seemed very optimistic as opposed to pessimistic and filtering and controlling information, all that stuff.”

JOE ROGAN: He’s probably not online.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: He’s off X. He’s off X.

JOE ROGAN: He’s off X. He’s off TikTok.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. He’s not subjecting himself to the New York Post.

JOE ROGAN: The thing about that says that the viewer was identified with a target and didn’t know what it was being. The Ark of the Covenant. After all the explanation they found. Oh, well, that’s much different. Yeah. So that whole thing at the end of it was what they were saying it was when they wrote it in that report. It’s just a bunch of words they’re putting together and got it. Hearing how they put off talk about it. Well, that’s way more interesting. If he didn’t know what he was looking for and he found something that looked like the Ark of the Covenant. That’s pretty crazy.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They kind of talk them on, right? They’ll give them something and say “walk us through.”

Human Consciousness and Spirituality

JOE ROGAN: I’m just doing devil’s advocate because I have no skin in the game. I don’t know if it’s real or not real. I’m open to it. I think there’s something going on. I think there’s more going on with people than we let on. There’s some extra thing that’s happening with human beings, the way we’re all connected to each other that we don’t really totally understand. And I think the idea that you can access information that’s not local, I don’t think that’s that weird. I think that might be an emerging aspect of human consciousness or an aspect of human consciousness that’s atrophied.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Or just an aspect of spirituality that we’ve previously forgotten because we’re in such a digital age that kind of programs you into the rat race. And I think people, the more that they’re kind of, you know, there has to be more to life than just a 9 to 5 and, you know, working for this aspect of materialism. Don’t get me wrong, I like, you know, a nice car and a clean house and all that. But, you know, there’s also this aspect of, you know, being a human.

And if you have kids, I think that’s one of the things. I have, you have a daughter, I have a son. And it’s when you’re a parent, it kind of makes you realize, wow, there’s this aspect of love that I didn’t know existed before. And you can kind of really be there and help, you know, grow this next human and influence that person. And it just kind of, the human experience is something that, you know, you can make it as special as you want.

And this aspect of, you know, us being able to have those little quantum breadcrumbs is what I call them. Have you ever been talking about something and you’ll go somewhere, hear something, and there’s confirmation of what you’ve been talking about, or, you know, something happens and you’re asking a question, then all of a sudden it pops up kind of. There’s the answer. And I think that those little things, just when you’re on the right path and doing what you’re supposed to do in this bigger picture.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, well, it’s a good way to live life if you believe that. It’s healthy, smart. It’s a good strategy. I wonder why some people seem to have the idea of it being an emerging aspect of human consciousness. Our ability to sense things and know things that are going to happen, or premonition or know if someone’s a liar or a weirdo instantly. I always wonder if, is it that or is it that we used to have that, before language, that’s all we had.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I think that before tech really evolved, there was a bigger aspect of spirituality that actually talks about that. So discernment in the Bible, you can talk about, you know, this aspect of being. People say, “Oh, if someone has really bad energy,” you picking up on it, there’s something to that. But I think that because, and it’s really happened, I think, in the last 40 years, where people are kind of forgetting that.

But when you actually go back to, for example, we’re talking just now about the Ark of the Covenant, the Ethiopian Orthodox text and all this, there’s more of that aspect of spirituality that I think has been removed from society. I think it’s actually taken away our ability to really respect one another and value human life. And I think that from a political perspective influences decision. You get really pro war people. Those people are usually not that spiritual, and they really don’t have a value for life in that aspect.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, no, that’s definitely a real thing. That’s unfortunate that there’s a, and the fact that those are the type of people that always want to be in power.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They are. They’re the worst type.

JOE ROGAN: That’s probably the scariest part of it.

Congressional Work and International Relations

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I actually had a really groundbreaking conversation. So the way I’ll describe Congress is because you ever have a job where 80% of it, 90% of it’s just really eating shit, and then the 10% is really cool. And it makes up for that 80, 90% that you’re just…

JOE ROGAN: That’s when I hosted Fear Factor.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Okay, so that’s it. Yeah. That aspect of, I think, really exists in politics, if you actually care. And I had a meeting recently where I was with two other members of Congress that were helping me with the JFK investigation. And we actually met for the first time since 1990 with the Ambassador to the Russian government.

And I bring that up because at the time of the JFK assassination, the KGB had actually come forward with their own independent investigation, and they actually gave it at Kennedy’s funeral to U.S. officials. We never got those documents. And it’s my belief that the CIA actually destroyed that information and evidence because it would have confirmed what the KGB. And mind you, at the time, JFK was actually in talks with the president of Russia at that time.

And his perspective is that he actually wanted to do joint mission between the US Government and the Russian government to the moon. And there are aspects and divisions within the intelligence community. You obviously saw the Cold War was happening. They wanted war in Cuba, they wanted war with Russia. So for them to be able to say that Kennedy, who was not a Communist, but that he was a Communist sympathizer, and “how dare he talk to these dirty communists.” I mean, that in itself would have given them any ammunition to turn a blind eye, or at least not fully figure out who assassinated Kennedy.

But I bring that up to say that, you know, when you have these people in power, you know, you can see a lot of it in regards to their. There’s a summit on the 15th, actually, with President Trump and Vladimir Putin. And I think the aspect of, you know, anytime you have peace and trade, it’s way better than war for everyone involved, for the people of Ukraine, for Russia, for the American people, and I think for the surrounding regions.

I recently got back from meeting with government officials in Romania and Moldova and it didn’t matter if. And I actually met an actual member of the Moldovan government who is a communist, an outward communist. And it didn’t matter who I talked to. Everyone wanted peace. And then when we had met with the European Parliament and the EU, some of them wanted peace. But then the countries that had the shittiest economies, excuse my language, they were the ones that were advocating for war. Well, you have a war based economy, it always helps your economy. So if you have terrible policy perspectives, obviously you would advocate for something like that.

But it just goes to show that the people that are going through it, the people that are living it, that are directly impacted by it, no one would advocate for war. And so in even just having this conversation, you know, a lot of people, even, you know, two administrations ago, maybe two administrations ago, probably would not have had that conversation. But to be able to develop that dialogue.

The end result of that meeting was the Russian government agreed to release their investigation onto JFK that the previous congressional task force in the 90s had tried to obtain from the Russian government. And they said no. So they agreed to release that and they’ll be posting it publicly for the American people to go through later on this fall.

JOE ROGAN: Have you seen it yet?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I haven’t, so I’ll be seeing it at the same time everyone else does.

JOE ROGAN: What do you think is in there, if you had a guess?

The Russian Government’s Assessment of Oswald

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So when I was talking to the ambassador, he’s actually a history buff too. And so he had actually said that the Russian government, when Oswald was actually in Russia, had done a psychological profile because they thought, you know, they’re like, “Is this guy part of American intelligence? Like, what’s his story?” And they thought he was basically nuts.

And apparently he tried to go hunting when he was out there and they were observing him and he couldn’t shoot for shit. So they’re like, you know, “He didn’t meet our psychological profile.” Then he shows up to the Russian embassy in Mexico City with a gun and they’re like, “What the hell is that? Like crazy guys showing up at them like, what’s going on?”

The Joannidis File Revelation

And then we find out simultaneously as this is all happening, that the CIA, kudos to Director Radcliffe, had actually released something called the Joannidis file. And George Joannidis was actually… He’s basically our version of James Bond, but more corrupt. And he was basically observing Oswald. He had lied to Congress. This was all in his file. He was then the CIA liaison to Congress during the investigations, stonewalled their investigations, was later awarded something from the CIA.

So we have the CIA admitting that they lied to Congress, covered up the assassination or covered up the investigations. We had admissions from the Warren Commission, people that had been subject to the Warren Commission’s investigation saying that the Warren Commission engaged in witness intimidation. They omitted evidence. The single bullet theory never exists. The CIA administration that Lee Harvey Oswald was not a lone gunman. People ask, “Well, you know, does this mean that you’ll ever get the name of who killed him?” No, because I don’t think the CIA was like “kill JFK on this day and use this gun and have this person assigned.” But there was evidence of multiple shooters for sure.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there had to be multiple shooters. There’s injuries like one of them was the front of his neck.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We had testimony to that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And actually what’s interesting is when we first launched the task force, we had left leaning news outlets that were trying to write hit pieces saying that I was basically launching a conspiracy theory task force and they had to print the truth weeks ago. You can actually pull up.

The Psychology of Conspiracy Denial

JOE ROGAN: What is it about people that don’t want to believe that some conspiracies are real? Is it a comfort thing? Is it you think you’re going to erode trust in the government? Is it you just have such a rigid worldview and in your mind that there’s always been Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. That’s what happened. And because of that, anything that challenges your belief system you fight against.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, specifically to JFK. For decades the intelligence agencies were influencing what the print and press was doing 100%.

JOE ROGAN: If you’re Geraldo Rivera, you know, when Dick Gregory brought that film on the Geraldo Rivera show and you got to see the Zapruder film and you got to see what looks like a shot that makes his head go back and to the left.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And the which would indicate he got shot from the front. I think he got shot multiple times by multiple shooters from multiple different directions. And I don’t think necessarily Lee Harvey Oswald wasn’t in on it. Well, here’s the problem. People say, “Oh, Lee Harvey Oswald couldn’t shoot.” You don’t have to be that good with a rifle to be you’re on a ledge so you have a secure rest if your rifle sighted in and they said his scope was off, but that doesn’t mean shit because you could just drop your scope and it’s off. Like all you have to do is take your rifle off of that ledge, drop it on the ground and now that scope is off. You never drop your gun like that. You can knock your scope off.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, there’s multiple problems, though, because the Warren Commission actually never even put into the report. Right. So, like, if you’re…

JOE ROGAN: But let me finish.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Let me finish.

The Magic Bullet Theory

JOE ROGAN: My point is that wasn’t a far shot. It was like, what was it, 140 yards from the Book Depository with a scope and a rifle with a rest. No, you could kill a guy like that. And he could have been the shooter. He could have been one of the shooters. But I think there’s too much witness testimony. There’s too much evidence. There’s too… The whole idea of the magic bullet theory was just because they had to account for all the wounds in the bodies with just three bullets.

And they found a guy who got hit in the overpass. In the underpass, rather. He got hit with a ricochet. Yeah. So now they knew that bullet couldn’t have hit Kennedy or Connally. So how do you attribute all these wounds to two different guys? From multiple gunshots to a single bullet.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s a magic bullet.

JOE ROGAN: Don’t you know, you have to find this bullet that fucking for sure didn’t hit any bones. And there’s more fragments in Connolly’s wrist than they were missing from the bullet. The bullet looks almost pristine. It looks like they shot it through, like, feathers or they shot it into water, which is what they do when they do ballistics tests on rifles.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, what’s interesting is, is the Warren Commission did omit multiple female witnesses who were actually at the Book Depository that day that actually stated that they had never witnessed Oswald actually in the location or going down the back of the Book Depository. So that’s…

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s possible that he could have snuck past them. There was a lot of chaos. You hear gunshots, the President shot. People don’t always think straight when things are going nutty. People have a terrible memory. Right. After traumatic events.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Like, yes and no. Like, he might have been there or he might not have been there. He might have shot at Kennedy or he might not have shot at any. But for sure, he was some sort of government operative.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: For sure.

JOE ROGAN: He was traveling back and forth from Russia. He married a Russian citizen. There was a lot of weird stuff.

Government Gaslighting and Public Trust

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: He was under surveillance by the CIA, so there’s a lot there. However, I will say this. What the official narrative was, we now know is BS, right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And that I thought from the beginning.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, but a lot of the American people did. But to have their own government say “No that’s not true.” To gaslight them and to push this narrative of “If you question it, you’re wrong, you’re crazy.” That in itself, I think, when you’re talking about, like, why do the American people not trust their government? It’s really this fracture that starts around the Kennedy era and timeframe. And you can see then that distrust kind of evolves.

But why do you… Going back to your original question, why do people refuse to kind of question conspiracy theory? Maybe there’s some substance to it. And I think it’s because it’s more comfortable for people from a psychological perspective to live in this comfort area, that their government might not do something like that or might not try to cover up something like that, because that’s just an easy way of life.

JOE ROGAN: But look, it’s too scary.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s too scary. But the fact is, is that, look, I’ve traveled a lot, I’ve dealt with a lot world leaders. We are still the greatest country in the world. Make no excuse about that. But it doesn’t mean that we can’t call out and hold our own government and officials accountable. And so that’s kind of what I’ve guessed. My mission has been this Congress and what I hope that it will continue to be.

But I’m not trying to do this for, like, even the next 10 years. So for someone like me, you know, people are like, “Oh, initially, you’re going to ruin your political career talking about this. This is crazy. Why would you even want to do that?” And then, you know, they’re seeing all these big wins coming out in regards to transparency. And I will say, had it not been for the secretaries that have been appointed by this administration, this wouldn’t have happened. Because under President Biden, he actually also tried to declassify things pertaining to JFK, and the National Archives never released it. And so in addition to…

The Importance of Transparency

JOE ROGAN: That’s not a good sign. None of that stuff’s a good sign. Like, if you want trust from the American people, people, you release information. If you want us to distrust you, you hide everything, and you’re hiding everything on one of the most important events in human history.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They were up until recently, and we’re still documents that the JFK community, because, mind you, I’m actually working with… His name’s Jefferson Morley. He is not a Republican. He’s a Bernie Sanders Democrat. But on this issue, we’re working great together. And he’s actually been helping me. And he’s like, “Look, I’ve been waiting for this stuff for like 30 years.”

JOE ROGAN: This is a hugely bipartisan.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, it’s super bipartisan.

JOE ROGAN: This is something we can all get together. That and UFOs. It’s the one thing Democrats and Republicans both completely agree on. Like, tell us what’s up. Tell us what’s up. Who killed them and are they real? Those are two giant questions that we all have.

The Mysterious CD-ROM Discovery

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I think they’re real. The other part is still outstanding, but hopefully when the documents are released from the Russian government later on this fall, that might be able to provide a full picture. Granted, I’m going to take it with a grain of salt because it’s still, you know, it was written by the KGB. But at the end of the day, we have a good mosaic that’s been put together with at least the documents that have been released with this administration and for any outstanding documents, actually have a team assigned to me from the CIA that is actually helping me chase down these documents.

And I’ve already had some interesting experiences. Like, not creepy, but, for example, after President Trump signed the executive order, and Radcliffe has been super helpful, we actually were made aware of this. Allegedly there had been a document that was at the CIA that was a report from the Inspector General that had implicated the CIA, allegedly, in the assassination of JFK. So I’m following up on this lead and trying to find the… this report. And the archives is like, “We don’t have any documentation of this.” The CIA says they don’t have any documentation, and they’ve been good with us so far.

So I go to the archives because they’re like, “We found this weird bag, though, and it’s in this SCIF, and it’s been here for five years, and it was left by our former attorney for the archives, and so we don’t know what’s in it.” And I was like, “Well, go open it.” They’re like, “Well, we don’t have the key, and it’s in a vault.” And I said, “Well, I’m coming over.” So I drive over, literally, like, put my son in the car. I get in the car, and I go over to the National Archives. We go into the SCIF. I pull up this bag, and I’m like, “Does anyone have scissors?” And we, like, cut open this little folder, and there was a CD ROM in it.

And this has, again, been declassified now, so I can talk about it. But there was this CD ROM of a ton of wires from the State Department. Some of the wires were pertaining to the Kennedy family, and it was actually a WikiLeaks document. And so I think the reason why it was kept at the archives is because you’re not actually supposed to have these documents on government computers. WikiLeaks obviously don’t happen with that. But here I was like cutting it out of a bag at the National Archive.

JOE ROGAN: That makes sense that you would have the most top secret documents burned on CD ROMs. That way no one could ever get access to it by hacking into your computer.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: To this day, I don’t know. Even who left the CD ROM, I don’t know. And there’s some other stuff in that that I don’t need to get into.

JOE ROGAN: But why don’t you need to get into it?

RFK Assassination Connections

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I won’t get in trouble. But the stuff that was on there was interesting. And I think I saw recently Tulsi had actually talked about some of the State Department wire that had been found that… And I think these are the same ones that had talked about the assassination of RFK. There were wires going up from the State Department prior to his assassination, which is interesting. So our next investigation. So we’ve done multiple case…

JOE ROGAN: What do you mean by that? Like how did they specifically discuss it?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, that’s… I haven’t seen the actual wires themselves yet. But what that would imply is that the State Department knew about the assassination before it took place.

JOE ROGAN: Oh geez.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And that was something she talked about.

JOE ROGAN: Did you get into the MK Ultra stuff at all with Jolly West?

MK Ultra and Operation Paperclip Connections

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And I look at that on my free time, but that’s not the purview of the task force. But there is stuff that you can. Again, CIA.gov reading room super creepy. I did find a document on the archives website that actually ties the initial phases of the MK Ultra program to Operation Paperclip.

JOE ROGAN: Oh boy.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Interesting.

JOE ROGAN: That makes sense, right?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And it’s there. And I’m reading this to my husband.

JOE ROGAN: Because for sure the Nazis were experimenting on drugs with people.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They were doing a lot of bad stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, they were doing a lot of horrible stuff. But for sure they were experimenting on their soldiers and on prisoners and they’re experimenting on all kinds of people.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Creepy stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And if we took some of that and applied it, the Jack Ruby connection to it is that Jolly West went to visit Jack Ruby after he shot Lee Harvey Oswald. And Jack Ruby was pretty rational before then. And then after Jolly West leaves, he’s freaking out, seeing things that aren’t there. I think he said something about Jews burning. He could see Jews burning alive. Like a psychosis state full on lost it. Most likely got dosed with acid. Most likely Jolly West just hit him with a shot glass of acid.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: That’s a terrible way to go.

JOE ROGAN: It doesn’t. He went so far off the deep end. Then he died later. I think he died a few years later of cancer. But I think he completely lost his mind after Jolly West visited him. And Jolly West was involved with the Manson family thing. He was involved with Operation Midnight Climax, where they had brothels. The CIA was running brothels. And they would get these johns to come in with the prostitutes, and the prostitutes would give them acid. And they didn’t know it.

And so they were sitting there and there was two way mirrors, and they were filming them. Why these guys? Well, for blackmail, for observation. They knew these people were never going to say, “Hey, you did that to me. Look what the government did. Dosed me up with acid.” Because they’re not going to admit they went to a brothel. So you have the perfect group of people to victimize and just try stuff on.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, and they got in trouble for it, too. The CIA had to do payouts. They were getting sued for it. And then when all this did flush out, I mean, it’s always economically.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the Freedom of Information Act was the only. And then they found a bunch of documents. They found documents that were. I forget who found. I forget Tom O’Neill, who wrote the book “Chaos,” goes into great detail about this. It’s all about the Manson family and MK Ultra. It’s a fantastic book.

The Stigma Around Conspiracy Theories

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, even just this conversation right now, there’s such a stigma that exists around it because it’s such a spooky topic.

JOE ROGAN: And so you don’t want to look stupid.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You don’t want to look stupid. And so look, anyone watching this can go look at this information, go to CIA.gov reading room and know it’s not going to be a phishing website that’s going to steal your information. But you can find for sure it is. Where are we accessing? But it’s always been one of those things. And if people ask me, I’m just very transparent about it.

And I will say something that started out with a stigma of being this conspiracy theory investigation, wasting taxpayer dollars, has been arguably one of the coolest task forces in Congress, I think, and we have a lot of good people that are behind it.

JOE ROGAN: And I think the tide is turning on that kind of thinking, that these conspiracy theories are silly to pursue. Some of them, yeah, some of them are silly, but that doesn’t mean that some are true. Also, there’s a time honored tactic of taking. Look, if I was an intelligence community, and I’m not accusing anybody of doing this, but if I was an intelligence community and I had some truth that was very inconvenient to a narrative, and I wanted to label that truth as being a preposterous conspiracy theory, I’d add a bunch of kooky stuff to it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Or have disinformation campaigns or dole it.

JOE ROGAN: Out to the nuttiest people on the Internet. Dole it out to the craziest people. This guy’s got a drinking problem. He’s got a conspiracy theory website.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Or take a little and spin it to him. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Get it to him and tell him you’re helping him out. You’re going to give him some insider. Get him to spread a bunch of kooky stuff so that when that stuff gets disproven, the other thing’s attached to it so the other thing looks stupid, too. That’s what I would do.

SCIF Flu and Reluctant Witnesses

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. We’ve had our fill. The one thing I wanted to do when I first got the task force is open up a SCIF to any person who held a clearance to come brief us on what they knew about UAPs. And I can tell you that we’ve now had.

JOE ROGAN: What was the first conversation like, when the door shuts and you’re like, “Oh, boy, I’m…”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, the problem. The problem is I’ve reached out to some of the biggest names in UFO lore, okay? And they all got SCIF flu. And we call it SCIF flu. Meaning, the day that the SCIF was open, that we reserved it, we’re here. Come on, come brief us. They get sick or they didn’t recover and come back. They didn’t recover, and then they just don’t talk to us anymore. So ghost you. They ghost us. Yeah. So I’m like, well, if you’re not going to talk, tell me to SCIF. Then you’re full of crap.

JOE ROGAN: Or you’re scared for your life because you’re just a scientist. Who doesn’t. Maybe they got threatened. Maybe someone let them know that maybe someone hung something on their door in the middle of the night.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But if people say they’re going to go tell us in a SCIF and then they don’t show up, it’s a problem. Right? So they’ve already gone public.

JOE ROGAN: But maybe those people don’t feel like the government’s going to protect them.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: That is one of the biggest things that we’ve had people bring up is that you’re a whistleblower, but whistleblower protections only go so far and you can’t do anything for my physical safety. And some of them do allege that there’s these actual physical. We actually had someone that we wanted to bring in to testify because our next hearing on UAP is going to be, I believe it’s next month.

And the individual that was actually told to us by David Grusch is actually a former combat controller. And so my husband, Air Force special operator, combat control. So we knew the guy via some friends. So we knew that the guy wasn’t nuts or crazy and reached out to him and he did not want to come in. He wanted nothing to do with. It was like, “I am not touching this.” And so stuff like that happens.

JOE ROGAN: Well, also, you put those folks on TV, right?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, we don’t have to. We can do private. But if we testify.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, if it comes time where they have to testify and there’s a lot of time in between people finding out this guy came and told you guys what’s up to testify.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Don’t freak out our witnesses, Joe.

JOE ROGAN: But that’s the problem. This is why what I was talking about is what’s being advocated in the documentary that to me makes perfect sense is mass analysis, amnesty. Now, here’s the bad part for sure. You’re dealing with enormous sums of money and I’m sure people got really rich off of that. And I’m sure it’s super illegal if it’s real.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: What the back engineering potential.

Private Contractors and Competitive Advantages

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. I mean, and also the competitive advantage you would give company A. If this company gets access to a downed craft that can traverse space and time, that can move through the universe instantaneously, that utilizes an unknown element that has some unknown process of defying gravity. It’s utilizing no interior mechanisms of control. Everything is done with the mind of the pilot. This is the truth. If this is what they’re saying.

And these are the kind of things they find that getting to a contractor would be a massive advantage over the other contractor that also should be on equal standing with the government. Right. They both make jets, they both make whatever it is. So it’s like, what do you do? Do you divvy up your spaceships in between these folks? Are they the only ones who get to know it? And then how do private contractors, how are they the gatekeepers of the most important information in the world if it’s true?

The Eglin Air Force Base Incident

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, so. And that brings us to what happened at Eglin Air Force Base. So, in a nutshell, we had been told by. So Representative Gates had come forward and said that he had two or three pilots had to contact him, saying that the Air Force was covering up information regarding to UAP activity in the handle, and he wanted us to go with him to invest.

So we show up at Eglin Air Force Base. We’re met by the base commander. Previous to us even showing up on this congressional delegation to investigate, the Pentagon had tried to cancel the meeting. And you can’t. So this was under the last administration, so you can’t just cancel a meeting and say you can’t come to the base. That doesn’t work.

So Gates actually was on House Armed Services at the time that oversees the U.S. military. And so Gates got the chairman involved, calls back onto the Pentagon, gets this meeting on the books. And we told them specifically, we want to see information on UAPs. We want to see the evidence, and we want to have the pilots that saw these aircraft, whatever they are, or these spacecraft, we want to have briefings from them.

In a nutshell, we get to Eglin Air Force base, they keep BSing us about the Chinese spy balloon. That’s not what we were there to see. And ultimately, we were in the SCIF. We got into a verbal disagreement with the base commander at the time who was denying us access to the pilots and to the information, and said that we didn’t have the authorization in the SCIF. There was many members of the intelligence community.

We then go back upstairs to the conference room and proceed to, again, basically have it out with this commander. And Representative Burchett said, “We could do this the easy way or the hard way. You choose.” A movie kind of. But it was at the time.

JOE ROGAN: I like it when people use a movie.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, easy way, the hard way. And if it’s the hard way, you’re going to have Representative Gates and Luna in D.C. questioning you. So I suggest you do it the easy way. So he actually, in the middle of the meeting, we know we were kind of holding his feet to the fire on it. He got nervous as we were talking to him, and he, I kid you not, he goes, “You know, they’re going to like that. I’m not going to let you see it.”

So he was thinking out loud, but didn’t realize that he was basically saying it. And then in the middle of our meeting, he gets up and leaves the room like, “I have to go to the restroom” or something. And then maybe five minutes later, this tech sergeant comes in and says, “Oh, the base commander’s been authorized to go and leave to Georgia. He won’t be coming back.”

And I’m sitting there looking at Gates and Burchett, and I’m like, “He just left in the middle of a congressional delegation. That’s never happened.”

JOE ROGAN: Said out loud, “They would be happy that I’m not telling you.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. Verbally articulated it. Gates was there. My husband was there. Burchett was there.

JOE ROGAN: Is this. That guy’s. He’s in a powerless situation. Right. If he does give you access, he’s.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Going to get in trouble.

JOE ROGAN: He’s in. He might be really in trouble.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But here’s the problem. He can’t. Who. Even if it was someone at the. Like the Secretary of Defense. Right. Because at the time, this got pretty high level.

JOE ROGAN: I’m not saying it’s not illegal.

Congressional Delegation Incident

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. He still. At the end of the day, you’re in the military. How our government functions is the military does not decide what the civilian sector and what representatives can and cannot see. It’s not supposed to function like that. So he got up and left.

I’ve never seen this happen. I was in the military. I’ve never seen, in the middle of a congressional delegation. These are big deals. You just get up and go and leave to Georgia and you just don’t come back. In the middle of the meeting. It never happened.

JOE ROGAN: What state were you at the time?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We were in Florida. He just gets up. He’s like, drove to Georgia. What the hell are you doing? You’re going to the middle of a congressional delegation going fishing. And then his second in command comes in and they managed to get one pilot to come down and brief us.

And what I will tell you is, I will say it. Representative Gates has gone on record. He actually did as soon as he left office. That we’ve seen stuff that I don’t believe was created by mankind.

JOE ROGAN: So you can’t tell us what you saw, but I’m going to let you infer.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Infer.

JOE ROGAN: See, this is the problem that I have with all this stuff.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I should be able to tell you without losing my clearance.

JOE ROGAN: Well, not just that. The people that have that information should give that information to the general public.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Correct.

JOE ROGAN: And stop treating us like you’re smarter than us and that you can handle it and we can’t. That’s silly.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Which is why we have to declassify.

The Hal Puthoff Study on UFO Disclosure

JOE ROGAN: Which is why you know the Hal Puthoff stuff. Hal Puthoff during the Bush administration was assigned. He was one of many scientists, and this is also in the age of disclosure. He was one of many scientists that was assigned to put a numerical value to pros and cons of UFO disclosure.

So they said to him, “We have a crashed UFO that we have been back engineering and we want to release information to society to let people know that UFOs are real and that there is something else out there that’s not us. It’s much more intelligent than we are.”

So they have this list of pros and cons, banking, religion, societal structure, everything on one side. And then the pros like whatever the positive aspects of it would be. And every single scientist said that the cons outweighed the pros.

And he said, “I would have loved to have had disclosure, but this was just what they asked me to do. They asked me to compile numbers and to do it in a way that’s super objective.” And he said if I’m doing my job, this is where I think it would completely wreck our government, completely wreck any idea that the people that are in charge of us have any position of authority when there’s something that can go 100 million times faster than we think is physically possible through the universe, appear out of nowhere, stop all of our nuclear programs, shut down bases, do weird shit.

Society’s Spiritual Evolution and UFO Theories

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But don’t you think that that’s where it’s been interesting because society has moved away from this aspect of having a spiritual grounding and even believing in most people today think when you talk about praying even that whole concept, it’s kind of just poo pooed.

But if you have a grounding in that, and going back to what I was saying earlier, I think that that’s not. I don’t think that society would do that. Granted I’m not a scientist, I’m not running numbers, but just based on how we’ve kind of been evolving with access to information and the questions, the discussions that have been happening, not just here, but I think internationally.

I just think a lot’s changing now to say that we were, and I’ve heard some wild theories like people think that humanity was seeded by UFOs. And I don’t agree with that theory. I’m going to address it.

JOE ROGAN: It’s a fun one.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s an interesting theory.

JOE ROGAN: If you found out it was true, would you tell everybody?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I mean, I’d be transparent about it, but I just don’t personally believe.

JOE ROGAN: If you found out that was the information that the government had?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I’d put it out there because that’s what.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but what would that do for your belief system?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Would it suck?

JOE ROGAN: But would it suck really? Maybe that’s what’s confusing about the Bible. Maybe what’s confusing is that it was an oral tradition for hundreds, if not a thousand years before it was ever written down.

Biblical Texts and Oral Traditions

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I think that it depends on what book you’re talking about.

JOE ROGAN: So like the Old Testament, if you go back to the oldest works of the Bible, weren’t most of those stories handed down generation after generation and then eventually written down, written into texts?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, some of them are written by prophets and then. But I mean, Enoch is apparently supposed to predate even the time of Genesis.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the nuttiest one is Ezekiel.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’m telling you, Enoch is even crazier than Ezekiel.

JOE ROGAN: Did you find anything about whether or not Enoch is controversial?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You can look up the 4th century.

JOE ROGAN: It was excluded as well, I guess since the fifth century, it wasn’t in canon.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Fifth century.

JOE ROGAN: And why did it get excluded? It says the Jewish scribes or the priests didn’t believe, the rabbis didn’t believe it was canon. So it’s considered, it’s regarded as scripture.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But what’s interesting is, is that even if that’s the case, though, you have the Ethiopian Orthodox Church that actually there’s Ethiopian Jews and that’s considered the most pure form of the Bible. So you actually have a division of the Ethiopian Jewish class that actually recognized Enoch.

JOE ROGAN: How weird is it that some rabbis 500 years ago made a call?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But that’s what I’m saying is you can’t discredit.

JOE ROGAN: It’s kind of weird, but you can’t.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Discredit it because again, when you have people removing books, I just, I think, look, and I’m not telling people what to believe. I’m just saying you should take a look at it.

The Exclusion of the Book of Enoch

JOE ROGAN: Oh, here it is. “The main reason for the Jewish rejection of the book is that it’s inconsistent with the teachings of the Torah from the standpoint of Rabbinic Judaism. The book is considered to be heretical. Another reason for the exclusion of the text might be the textual nature of several early sections of the book that make use of material from the Torah. For example, Enoch is midrash of Deuteronomy 33.

The context. Particularly detailed descriptions of fallen angels would also be reason for rejection from the Hebrew canon at this period, as is illustrated by the comments of Trypho the Jew when debating Justin Martyr on this subject. ‘The utterances of God are holy, but your expositions are mere contrivances, as is plain from what has been explained by you. Nay, even blasphemy infamous for you assert that angels sinned and revolted from God.'”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So it was a.

JOE ROGAN: It seems like some people made a decision that something shouldn’t be in there.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, but that’s the thing is it’s a disagreement in religion and perspective, but they should have still not removed it. And so it’s interesting because then you have the evolution of what the King James Bible is. We all know that story. He wanted to get remarried, they rewrote it.

But you even have the Catholic Bible that has. It’s what happened, right? You have the Catholic Bible that had books that were taken out, and then we have the King James. So I’m not saying that if you read the King James, you’re not getting. You don’t have access to God. That’s not what I’m saying. But I am saying that there’s a bigger picture here that we need to discuss.

The Impact of Human Editorial Decisions

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s always a problem when people get involved and when people get involved in making decisions that this could be real and this could not be. The problem is all these years later, you’re dealing with the repercussions of that.

Imagine a world in which if Enoch was left in the Bible and people were like, “Wait, what happened?” Explain the nuttiness of the book of Enoch to people.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Okay, so if you read it, it talks about the fall of angels, thus creating really the precursor of civilization that led to the first flood. I think that when you even go into potentially the technology that was given to mankind by these angels, it talks about the hidden beliefs and theories in astronomy, metal workings, all of it.

But it really does explain, you were talking about earlier how you have a lot of these religions around the world that kind of say the same thing. This is kind of the OG text that leads to those stories that we’re hearing from many religions around the world to talk about angels mixing with mankind and then seeding a super essentially race of humans that essentially were responsible for basically damning mankind to the flood.

I mean, you hear about stuff in Greek and Roman mythology, people who had these super crazy powers, and you talk about it out loud and it sounds crazy, but that’s what the book says. And then the fact that it was taken out and then it’s poo pooed. Yet you have one of the oldest religions in the world, via the Ethiopians, that actually still have it. You have the Catholic Church that has books that are missing out of the King James Version.

I’m just saying that when you read it, you should read it and decide for yourself. Don’t listen to what I’m saying. Don’t listen to what you’re saying, but truly give it a chance and see what you have to say. And then you’re going back to this whole concept of if you have this information pertaining to UAPs, whatever they might be, the origins, I mean, if you have an understanding of what Enoch was talking about, kind of makes sense.

The Challenge of Ancient Translations

JOE ROGAN: Well, I go back to my thoughts on all this stuff. It’s like very few people could even read back then. Very few people could write. So you’re not going to write. You’re probably going to try to capture a truth. You’re probably not writing necessarily to deceive people and make up a story.

So the question is, with all this stuff is what was the original truth that they were trying to write down? And how much of it is getting distorted by translations from ancient Hebrew to Latin to Greek to Aramaic? How much of it?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And there’s a thing.

JOE ROGAN: And is it possible to even understand what they’re saying without understanding the language? My friend Rick Strassman, he’s a very fascinating guy, but brilliant guy. One of the things that he did is he taught himself ancient Hebrew so he could read the Bible in Ancient Hebrew. It took him 16 years.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Wow.

JOE ROGAN: But he did it because, “I want to know it in that language.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I mean, that’s smart, because there’s always an aspect of translation where you lose certain implications.

JOE ROGAN: If you’re playing the telephone game, you want to be second, you don’t want to be fifth.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Exactly.

JOE ROGAN: And whoever was writing it down the earliest. That’s probably. You’re closer to their depictions of what that truth is. Then after King James starts fucking around with it and all these other things.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Want a new wife, got to remove her Instagram?

JOE ROGAN: People start getting involved. But boy, when you go to the really old stuff, the really old stuff is very strange.

The Ethiopian Orthodox Bible

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The Orthodox, I’m telling you, the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible, I actually had a staffer that went to Ethiopia, she was on a church trip and she actually brought me back a copy and she’s like, “You can translate it via Google translation.” So kudos to modern day technology.

So I have it in my office and actually when I did my swearing in, I actually did my swearing in on the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s direct translation.

Religious Implications of UFO Disclosure

JOE ROGAN: That’s kind of crazy. You know, I would wonder what the impact to all these religions would be if we had definitive proof that we’re not alone. Like if there was an introduction, like some sort of an event where they decided, “Look, this government is too secretive with all this information. You’re holding back the understanding of these intelligent life forms that they are not the apex of this planet, nor are they anywhere close to the peak of the intelligence that’s available out there in the universe. Just let me show you real quick.”

And then what does everybody do now? Like what happens to the Mormons? Everybody’s going to blow a gasket.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I think that brings us back to… So by the way, I’m by no means saying that aliens are God. That’s not what I’m saying.

JOE ROGAN: No.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But I think that brings us back to the fundamental question: do you believe that God exists? Because if you do, then you realize that our freedom, the freedom of choice, is not a man given right, but a God given right. And I think that goes back to the fundamental principles of what we believe in true representation.

So if you believe that God is real, God is powerful, then it shouldn’t be a king or a man that you’re looking to, but to God for divine inspiration and to make your life decisions. That’s ultimately what freedom of choice is.

JOE ROGAN: But I think even the Catholic Church has acknowledged the idea that if there is intelligent life somewhere else, it doesn’t mean that God didn’t create it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, that’s true.

JOE ROGAN: Maybe God just didn’t tell you about the neighbors.

Ancient Texts and Hidden Knowledge

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, it does say in Enoch, and then also in Genesis that “the stars cried out.” And so if you’re looking, well, a star, if it’s not… what do they mean by stars crying out? And then Enoch actually alludes to stars in certain capacities being potentially angels.

Now I’m not saying… and this is kind of interesting because, you know, I’ve had this aspect of my task force, what we’ve been investigating, but then I have my personal beliefs and my religious beliefs. And what I’m telling you is that in my position officially, I’ve seen men pervert information to get what they want.

So it’s not unlikely that an entire, very secret, very truthful text was omitted in an effort to control population and to insert yourself between individual’s relationship between them directly and God. And I think that, especially…

JOE ROGAN: If it doesn’t agree with your interpretation of God. And this is the issue with these rabbis, right?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I mean, if you’re having people determine any information. Yes. You should not be able to do that.

JOE ROGAN: Just the same thing as the UFO stuff.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The UFO stuff.

JOE ROGAN: No one should be the gatekeeper of information.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Exactly. And hence the transparency on the information.

JOE ROGAN: Especially something that should be for all of us. This is nuts.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I think we’re probably going to be responsible for the Book of Enoch sales probably increasing on Amazon.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I’m going to buy it. I’m going to buy it. I need to read it now.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You’ll trip out.

Ancient Civilizations and Lost Knowledge

JOE ROGAN: Well, I wish I could. I mean, I’m sure there’s some interpretations of the Dead Sea Scrolls that I could sludge through. But the thing about it is, I’d really love to be able to read it in Aramaic. I really wish I could read Aramaic. I just don’t have the time to do that.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You should see if there’s an audible source.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, I’m sure there is, but what I’m saying is I really like the Strassman idea of learning ancient Hebrew to be able to read the source material. That’s where it gets really interesting. Because what were these people trying to write about?

And if these people like Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson are correct and these folks that believe in the younger Dryas impact theory, the Bible was written a couple thousand years ago. These people that are talking about the younger Dryas impact theory are talking about a cataclysmic event that wiped out advanced civilization 11,800 years ago.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, Plato talks about it, hearing it from Egyptian teachers and then going back to the Atlantean civilization.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but what was my point is what was their Bible? You know what I mean? Like, if you can get back to 11,800 years ago and read what they thought went down. Because I think that’s probably where the oral traditions come from.

The oral traditions come from complete collapse of society, rebuild over time takes forever. And then a re-understanding of what you know to be true about the origin of man and the birth of the universe and why we’re here. And then you got to figure out what Jesus is.

The Anunnaki Connection

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, so I actually… When I was in my early 20s, I actually went to Egypt to see the megalithic structures there. And then I went to Turkey to see the Sumerian inscriptions and carvings and what they thought the ancient Sumerian gods were, the Anunnaki, all that.

What’s interesting is in Enoch, it actually has reference to the Anunnaki, but a different… I think it’s like Anu is the root term that’s used for it.

JOE ROGAN: Have you read the Zechariah Sitchin stuff?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No.

JOE ROGAN: Do you know of it?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I have heard of it. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. That’s the most fun.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. Well, I will say with all of that going back to… If you read Enoch and then follow about the fall of mankind and the angels… and this is Christian theology, right. So angels came down, rebelled against God, and bred with humankind, that would be, I think, a good starting point for what potentially the Anunnaki were.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, God probably didn’t like that they were coming around and taking the ancient hominids and juicing them up. Juicing them up, make them smarter.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Heaven did not approve.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s probably against the code of the universe. God probably says, “Look, you can go visit, but don’t mess around with it.”

Divine Justice and Government Accountability

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, there’s definitely something to be said. It actually talks about this in Enoch, about a divine justice. And so I think, going back to what is our job? How would society function? You have aspects in government. Do you trust your government? Is government going to follow through and bring accountability?

That’s our job in the same sense, in that we have to ensure that if we are to truly have an equal and fair society, that you have to have this aspect of justice that has to be carried out. And I can go back to something that I found kind of crazy, but the mandatory minimums for child predators are not that high in this country.

And so Congress can actually increase the mandatory minimums, but there’s been a lot of lethargy about that. And it’s like, why would you not want to increase it? Some people are against the death penalty. And I always say that it’s not my job to play God or to judge people, just to help to arrange the meeting.

Historical Investigations and Government Transparency

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. It’s a weird job, right? I mean, you’re involved in the disclosure of things that have questioned, that people have questioned forever. I mean, these are… Those are the huge questions that exist from the 1960s on: UFOs, JFK, Martin Luther King, RFK, those are the big ones.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We’re looking for it and there’s a good group of people that are signing up into it. I did say recently… So the MLK documents just came out and we’re wrapping up our JFK investigation. So after we finalize the JFK investigation, we’re putting out an official congressional report on our findings and people can read it and decide for themselves. Then we have RFK and then MLK.

But I think a lot of the MLK family was actually very concerned that we were going to go into extracurricular. And that’s not the objective of the task force. It’s to specifically expose what the government was doing if they knew about the potential threats.

And people say, “Well, why do we care about…” I constantly get, “Well, we shouldn’t care about this.” No, you should, because there has to be a check and balance. And when, if the CIA was operating outside the purview of the federal government, if you know that whistleblowers are being punished, if they need to be reformed to the FOIA act, all of this stuff, then we have to be able to put forward legislation to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

And what’s been very interesting and almost serendipitous about the whole JFK investigation is you have President Trump now in the second term that’s released all this information and multiple people, presidents tried to, but they were worked against by their own secretaries within these agencies, and then deep state actors that tried to block the efforts for release.

Now you’re seeing kind of a flush of the system. And even though information hasn’t come out as fast as we would like it to, the fact that they’ve made these admissions is really good. But moving forward into how do you prevent this from happening again?

It’s people really do… young people, especially because there’s so much fatigue for people that have been in office for… And the reason I say that, I don’t even want to do this for the next 10 years is because everyone, even people I’ve looked up to, after a certain amount of time, they lose their edge. And I think that’s because you’re up there, you’re taking in a lot of incoming. It’s not a fun job, you’re getting attacked, you’re getting beat down. It’s stressful.

But if you can put all your energy in it now and then you can cut ties and pass it on, that’s how our founding fathers wanted us to do: pass the torch, stand up the next generation.

Term Limits and Congressional Reform

JOE ROGAN: Right. But we have a bunch of career politicians that want to stay in office for 50, 60 years.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Correct. And that’s the problem. And it’s on both sides.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s on both sides.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So I’m trying to do a discharge petition now on term limits. So back in January of my first term, so back in January of 2022, I’m sure you saw there was this massive speakers fight about confirming Kevin McCarthy as the speaker of the House. And I was part of one of those 20 that said, “We’re not going to vote for you just yet. We need to reform the institution and the way that we function,” because power had been consolidated within the Speaker’s position.

So much so that how it’s supposed to work is you’re supposed to be able to bring a bill forward, that bill’s supposed to come to the floor. All these policies were being consolidated in one person. And if you didn’t fall in line, you wouldn’t get committee assignments, you wouldn’t be able to fundraise. They would basically cut off all aspects of fundraising in Washington.

And the mainstream media for a while was like, “You guys are disrupting the process. You guys are fighting.” Well, what the hell do you want Congress to do? You want us to just fall in line and not argue our principles? Last time I checked, you’re supposed to fight for that. And so we were able to reform the institution.

But one of the things that we had negotiated with the former speaker was we wanted a vote on term limits, and that never came up. And so now, because of our very slim majority, one of the slimmest majorities in US history, we have the ability to do something called a discharge petition, and it’s where you can physically go down and basically collect signatures on a bill.

And so I’m bringing forward two that have already been filed. One is going to be to force a vote on term limits. So I’m going to see if members of Congress will actually put their name to actually bring that bill to the floor. There’s going to be a massive, I hope, pressure campaign to activate members to do that. And then the other one is banning insider trading.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that’s been talked about for a while.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But hasn’t been done. And we can do it now.

JOE ROGAN: She just needs a little more money and then she’ll quit.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, it’s not… there was a communications director meeting for the entire GOP and I’m calling up bringing a bill on banning insider trading. And we were not invited to that meeting. Our staff was excommunicated from that.

JOE ROGAN: I wonder why.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, I know some people are making money.

Congressional Stock Trading Corruption

JOE ROGAN: Shocker. It’s crazy how openly corrupt that part of the business is. But the thing is, once you’ve become accustomed to be able to do something and you’ve been able to do it for decades, you’re very reluctant to give that up. Why would you give that up? That’s a huge advantage.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: People say that it doesn’t exist, but last time I checked, when you are given access to CEOs, when you’re given access to information that are affecting markets and then you’re on the committee that has purview over those bills, you do have information.

JOE ROGAN: Like, for example, it seems like you have a little more than the average person.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And there’s a lot. You can look at people’s portfolios. They go in making $175,000 a year, and then all of a sudden you come out, you’re worth like $20 million, $200 million. It’s kind of shady.

JOE ROGAN: You’re not really gambling. The stock market is kind of gambling. You’re not gambling. The UFC doesn’t even allow me to gamble and I can’t even affect the outcome.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So you can’t do it, but Congress can.

JOE ROGAN: For now, at least the inside information that I have, anybody could have. Mostly not really. No. That’s not true. No. I know some stuff sometimes, unfortunately.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. I was told if I forced a vote that I was going to “cost us the Republic” is what I was told.

JOE ROGAN: But the thing about the insider trading thing is the amount of money is so egregious. Like, isn’t Pelosi now worth $400 million? Wasn’t that the…

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Upwards. I saw upwards of $200 million. But I thought, compounding interest, I thought…

JOE ROGAN: She jacked up her portfolio recently. Significantly, significantly.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But it’s not just her, it’s on both sides.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, yeah, no, she’s just the poster lady. Unfortunately. No slight at her. It’s all across the board. If you look at how many people… It’s red, blue, red, blue. It’s the whole thing. Everybody’s doing it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I told my husband, I was like, “We’re not going to do stocks because it’s just…” That’s the one thing you can talk to anyone. I actually was reading an article and the local press are like, “Rep. Luna is trying to force a vote on this.” Right. And so I’m always the kind of red headed stepchild usually with especially in dumb circles.

But this one lady posted, I actually started laughing. She goes “Well a broken clock is right twice a day.” And I started laughing because I’m like it’s such a bipartisan issue, like over 80% of Americans don’t think that Congress should be able to trade stock. And it’s true because we’re given access to information and that’s truly influencing your decision.

JOE ROGAN: Did you ask her what the rest of you are wrong about?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I mean I tend to, I think it’s just, I think it’s party associations like some people just will never vote.

JOE ROGAN: A broken clock.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

Political Polarization and Bot Activity

JOE ROGAN: People are rabid and they’re super upset now obviously because Trump’s in office again. So that rabid nature has been over amplified.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It has. I think a lot of it though is driven by bot activity I think is really big. I can tell you that when I first launched the task force people were like “She’s an intelligence asset, she’s never going to release information” that it came out that I actually don’t have declassification authority. But we have been able to produce and we are getting full cooperation from the executive branch. So we’re just simply investigating the findings, collecting the information and pressuring for release.

JOE ROGAN: There’s real people along with those bots, but real people are also influenced by bots as well.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Group things.

JOE ROGAN: There’s waves of negativity and positivity that go in certain directions that are orchestrated and there’s companies that are known companies that you can actually hire them to go do stuff.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: They exist in Florida actually. There’s a couple of social media influencers that have been approached. I’ve seen it so I know it exists.

JOE ROGAN: Crazy.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: What’s interesting though is it goes back to that you never want to get in trouble in a crowd of people because they’ll just look at each other. You ever see someone getting beat up and they just film it, right? Going to help that person and that’s part of that group. Think it exists online?

I do think X needs to do something at least be able to label bot accounts because I’ve seen it happen, especially on certain things like I had done something to allow new moms to vote. When you’re recovering, our job is different. Only 13 women in US history have ever given birth. It’s about to be 14 who are members of Congress and God forbid we enter a war or something. We’re not going to be able to vote if you’re recovering in a hospital. That’s a pretty rare circumstance.

And so there was definitely bot accounts that were attacking me for that and accusing me of destroying the Republic. Again, I said I don’t think that’s the case.

JOE ROGAN: But yeah, that’s not tinfoil hat stuff, folks. You really need to know that. Why wouldn’t there be? This is the thing. If you were… Whether it’s this country, a corporation, another country, why wouldn’t you automate your system or have AI or even just have actual people that have a job and their job is to type inflammatory, whatever it is, insults, whatever it is. Whatever their accomplishment, whatever their goal they’re trying to accomplish is. Why wouldn’t you have a group of people that you have at your command if it’s legal? Because it is legal.

Social Media Manipulation and Censorship

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It is legal. And in politics. What’s interesting is the test, especially when you’re running for office. It’s kind of interesting because you’ll actually… During my first race, I actually had a firm that I was going to for consulting and they had someone that had worked at the firm that had also worked with McDonald’s branding. So people that are running for office will bring on these terms and then they’ll give them kind of a branding profile.

What was interesting about that is that you have this aspect of bot activity. Social media at the time was kind of just resurfacing as if you want to be kind of influential, you have to be able to use social media, share your message and get that out there. And I think Trump really kind of refined that was kind of one of the leading figures in that, especially when Twitter 1.0 was in existence.

But then you had this aspect of people that were running for office and then there was actually a censorship state in this country. And we found that out that Twitter 1.0 was coordinating with the Department of Homeland Security. We found this out actually in a congressional hearing where they were actually… And DHS had a division under that was supposed to be monitoring terrorist organizations and they were using it on the American people to censor information. Specifically on COVID on January 6th. All that. That is scary.

You still have censorship issues in places like the EU so to think that they wouldn’t use social media platforms especially to influence the masses is just… That’s not a conspiracy theory. That happens. We have evidence of that.

JOE ROGAN: Of course censorship is influencing. It’s also causing people to self censor, which changes discourse.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. Not wanting to have conversations with each other.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Well, you can get banned from Twitter for a variety of things, particularly during COVID but I think was also a great test case for them. Let’s see, if there is some sort of catastrophe, some natural disaster, some national security issue where we could now enforce new regulations of censorship.

Chinese Government Influence Operations

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, and scary regulations at that. Because COVID was really kind of dystopian and going back to kind of, I think you’d mentioned foreign government influence using bots. The one thing that’s been interesting is in our investigation so taking now my task force hat off and going into actually problems that we see right now happening.

You saw this massive a couple weeks ago rift that was taking place between the American people specifically on immigration. And all of a sudden these pop up riots. I actually called them the Temu riots, like the Temu Chinese act, because it came out via actually this woman, her name’s Data Republican on X. And she actually tracked down the funding line.

And what was happening was the Chinese government was basically propping up this billionaire, American billionaire Neville Singham. And actually he was donating money to organizations like Party Socialism and Liberation. And they were actually funding a lot of these riot pop ups in the area.

So you had people that were being used divided, for example, on the immigration topic, you literally have them passing out, Mexican flags saying that they cared about immigrants, when in actuality the financial ties is actually coming from the CCP. So the Chinese government on many occasions, and it’s not uncommon within Congress to know, even on apps like TikTok, they were showing certain information in order to cause a rift and influence people.

This same individual, Neville Singham, actually once we got this information, we sent a request to have him come testify to Congress and he spends part of his year in Shanghai, China. And so we were not able to deliver him his subpoena basically. And so there’s a letter that Chairman Comer has now offered, authorized to be sent that will go to the Treasury Department to freeze his assets unless he comes to testify to Congress.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And that, mind you, this is not… People and look, I started out before politics with my feet getting wet as an activist. That’s actually how we started out in politics. So I understand the immigration, the border, I understand all arguments because I’ve been through it and I’ve had a debate on debate it.

But what’s a problem for me is that you have foreign governments trying to cause a rift and then promote ideologies that will empower people specifically to push forward policy that will actually put us as second tier as opposed to the Chinese government. And I do think that the Chinese government in their execution has been very, very specific about how they want to hinder our ability to be global dominators.

I think when you’re looking at what happened in COVID time frame, right? So people said that Wuhan lab leak, that that was a conspiracy theory. We now know that it happened, and that was true. But at the same time, if you look at what President Trump was doing, he was actually trying to negotiate trade with China and he was winning. And then all of a sudden COVID happened.

Well, what was interesting second time around in Trump 2.0 is that you have all these Temu riots taking place at the same time. And it almost got no coverage in the mainstream media, but you had multiple Chinese nationals that were caught trying to release agro terrorism weapons.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, we talked about that stuff.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, agro terrorism weapons. And then at the same time the tariff war was taking place and then you actually saw them trying to infiltrate. So I don’t think it’s by accident, but I do think that it’s important to remember that just because you see something happening on the mainstream media, the media will always try to amplify something because it’s rage baiting and it’s click and it’s views which translates to money.

JOE ROGAN: And if it’s negative against Trump, it gets front page views.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Of course, of course. But when you actually look at where the funding stream is coming from, it actually goes back to China. And this is not the only incident where they try to drive a wedge back between Americans and then actually compartmentalized with Hispanic Americans specifically.

So in 2016, now the largest voting minority in the country are Hispanic Americans specifically of Mexican descent. And I think you can find that stat on PewHispanic.org so when you’re looking at voting demographics, how could you influence an entire demographic to help skew or influence a midterm election? And it would be specifically probably on the immigration topic to try to race bait people.

But then you have this aspect of the same guy, Neville Singham, his wife actually funds an organization called Code Pink. So this is all Chinese money now going to a separate cause. And this one specifically is on the Israel versus Palestine issue. They don’t care about Israelis or Palestinians. This is a Chinese funded group. And what they are doing is they’re using that front in an effort to then divide on that topic as well. So it’s a multifaceted approach using minority classes in order to actually push the end goal, which would be communism.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

Corporate Exploitation of Illegal Immigration

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And also too you can actually look on the flyers for these organizations. So PSL Neville Seedingham is actually an open admirer of Mao Zedong. I mean like it’s all up there and it’s out there for you to find. But it’s just crazy because most people, you know, you see this aspect of propaganda that’s being shown to you and you’re not going to be like, “Who’s funding that?” You know, you’re going to be able to say like, you know, tell with that person, “I’m going to fight for this.” But they don’t actually realize the more nefarious perspective of what’s happening behind the scenes.

JOE ROGAN: So I absolutely believe this is true that I’m sure other countries fund similar things. But also it was in reaction to some of the ICE raids, right? I mean it was a visceral reaction that a lot of people had the idea of people just showing up and pulling people out of schools and pulling people out of Home Depot and pulling people that were just hard working people that maybe snuck over here because they didn’t have a legal way to get over here.

But since they’ve been here they’ve been good people and they’re a part of communities and that’s what freaks people out. Because what people, when people thought about ICE, they thought “Great, we’re going to get rid of the gang members.” They didn’t think, “Great, you’re going to get rid of a landscaper.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But the question is why didn’t they do it then during why did these riots and why did this happen under.

JOE ROGAN: No, no, no, I don’t disagree with you. I think Obama, Biden, listen, I’m sure some of these riots absolutely are manufactured. I’m sure they are. I’m sure these pallets of bricks that get left off on corners when they know that there’s going to be a BLM riot, that’s bananas.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, they fundraise. But to your point, so how do you fix something like the immigration system as a whole, right?

JOE ROGAN: You definitely don’t have an open border. That’s crazy because you need to know if people are criminals that are coming in. You don’t want cartel members coming in, you don’t want murderers coming in and serial killers. Like there’s a reason why we have borders. All the above, right? There’s a reason why we have borders but the thing that freaks people out is like, how many corporations rely on illegal labor.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Tyson Foods is one of them. Yeah, we actually, last year I was putting out some messaging on them because I’d watched this documentary about the slaughterhouse and how they’re actually using migrant children like 14, 15 in some of these slaughterhouses.

And the lobbyist from Tyson Chicken Corporation contacted my chief of staff at the time and was trying to basically say, “Hey, basically back off.” But I don’t care, it’s wrong. I don’t care where you’re on the spectrum. You shouldn’t allow migrant labor with children specifically because child slave labor.

JOE ROGAN: I’ll tell you a story that a high level government official told me.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Okay.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t want to, I don’t know if he said it on here or not, so I don’t want to say his name.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Wait, so he was on here. So then that narrows it up. Okay. It’s okay.

JOE ROGAN: Someone actually said to him that they don’t want to stop the illegal immigration because they need cheap labor.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Correct. I actually think that it’ll never stop, at least not in college.

JOE ROGAN: That they don’t have to pay them any benefits. They don’t have to take care of.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Their insurance or pay them at all.

JOE ROGAN: Well, they pay them, but they don’t have to pay them what they’re supposed to pay them.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I’ve heard cases where people, specifically contractors, will walk on people if they know that they’re here illegally. And so going back to how do you fix this?

Immigration System Reform

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Is one of the top cases that I handle, aside from Social Security help and refunds, within my congressional office. So a congressional office does constituent services and it’s basically like customer service. “Have you been victimized by the federal government? You know, call this number.” That’s your congressional office.

So specifically on immigration cases, if you’ve had an issue with the State Department visas, all that you can contact your local congressman. And so what I will say is that we’ve had people that have spent tens of thousands of dollars to come here, but it takes 20 something years to do. And that’s part of the problem is there’s been such an influx and such a bog down of the actual system that our actual system is not functioning at the capacity that it should to actually help people come here the correct way.

JOE ROGAN: Well, especially poor people. Right. And if you want to immigrate to the United States, the application, one of the things they ask you, “Are you an expert in something where people in the United States can’t do it?”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Like a doctor, or maybe you’re a.

JOE ROGAN: Musician and no one else could sing your songs, maybe you could get citizenship from that. But if you’re just a landscaper, you’re just a guy who lives in a third world country and you want a better life. And you say, “I heard you can get across. And I heard when you get across, you can get work.” What is that guy going to do? That guy doesn’t have the money to hire a lawyer. He’s not going to. How is he going to prove that he’s more valuable than a United States citizen that’s already here doing the exact same job?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I do think that unless we are able to assign probably more lawyers, more judges to actually hear these cases, it’s going to continue to be a problem. And I have heard, okay, on the floor, these are conversations between members that to a certain extent, especially when you’re talking about an E-Verify system within the ag industry that actually members of that committee don’t want that because they know that the farmers are actually heavily relying on some of these illegals to work in the building.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And construction crews and fill in the blank.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So I can confirm that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. So isn’t the solution force people to pay everybody exactly the same way?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, yeah, because you don’t have the decrease in wages. However, I think the bigger problem that we have here though is that at least specifically in my district and then also to having argued this, is that this gray area that’s been created, in my opinion, they don’t want a solution for they do it intentionally with the understanding that both sides are going to fundraise off of it.

In my opinion, if I was to be able to actually fix this, I would say that you have to. I would say pause, let the system run through, take everyone in, vet them, make sure that they’re not criminals, et cetera. But then the system allows time for it to actually catch up to itself and then you can continue as is.

Political Fundraising and Nonprofit Corruption

JOE ROGAN: What you just said was so scary that they don’t want to resolve it because they want the issue to exist so they could fundraise for it against it. That’s so nuts and probably so accurate. That’s probably so accurate because anytime anything ever happens, one of the first things they do is “Please donate,” throw it up. All the people that are very reactionary, “I can’t believe this is happening.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And you know what’s crazy is most elected officials might send out that email, but the email fundraisers actually are taking 80% of that dollar. That’s usually the average retro. And it’s like, I’m in the wrong business. This is crazy.

JOE ROGAN: The scariest thing about nonprofits is how much profit they make. It’s really weird when you see the salaries of some of these people that are nonprofits.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I will never. I will never.

JOE ROGAN: A year. You’re like, what is. How is that?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And they do nothing. That’s crazy.

JOE ROGAN: Or what’s going on with the LA fire thing? You know, where they can’t figure out where all the money went. And it went to 188 different nonprofits.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Who is it? Spencer is his name Spencer Pratt? I was like, Spencer Pratt for governor.

JOE ROGAN: He’s a little pit bull. That dude’s on that thing. His house got burnt down.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And then they promised. All these celebrities are like, “Yeah, donate, we’ll give it to the victims.” It’s like, where did it go? There’s this fine print that he wrote.

JOE ROGAN: It’s really weird, but it exposes the legality of these systems. It’s legal for them to operate like that. Where, you know, an enormous percentage of all the money that comes in goes to overhead. It goes to.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And they did find.

JOE ROGAN: But it’s such a scam. It’s such a weird scam and it’s such a devious thing because you’re pulling.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: On people’s heartstrings, which is why, going back to what I said, we need younger people and we need more normal people to run for office.

AI and Military Technology

JOE ROGAN: We need AI to take over.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I don’t know about.

JOE ROGAN: AI is our God.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So no, no, no, no.

JOE ROGAN: AI is our governor. AI is our king. That’s what we’ll say in school now. AI is our king.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We need to. I think AI can be used in good senses. And I ask Grok things a lot and I will argue points, but I think we need to work alongside it because there’s this aspect of AI that removes the humanity. I don’t think you can teach AI empathy. And there’s a certain aspect of humanity that needs to be kept involved in these decision making processes.

For example, if you have a drone that’s been targeted to, let’s say, eliminate a terrorist at this grid location and it’s functioning solely on AI, well, what’s going to enable it to be able to pause on destruction of a location if there’s children within it? I mean, if it’s a bot it’s not thinking.

JOE ROGAN: That’s true. But the US history of drone use is no better than what you just described.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, there are oversights and massive investigations, especially if it’s in regards to civilian casualties.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but civilian casualties are the majority of deaths from drones.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I would say based on the people that I’ve talked with and interacted. It’s definitely happened in the past and it’s definitely problematic. However, I think it’s.

JOE ROGAN: People get in trouble for it’s. But it’s the majority.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’d have to. I mean, look, I don’t.

JOE ROGAN: The majority of the people that died were civilians. They weren’t the intended targets.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, and that’s a problem. And that’s where a lot of these people do. You have low act. So there’s massive investigations with the JAGs, et cetera, that get involved in these investigations.

JOE ROGAN: I’m saying, would AI be better than that? I don’t know.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I think you can have. I think you can have an AI decision making process, but where there is a human involved in that step. Process. So the human would be the final step in authority. So the AI would rank it maybe. And granted, I’m not an AI programmer, but I am saying that I think that there’s an interface where you can have humans involved in the final.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the most terrifying solution is not. That is don’t use the missiles. Instead you have a chance drone that specifically targets one person.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, there’s suicide drones. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: But I mean even worse, flies through the house and lands on the dude’s head and blows up.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Don’t freak me out too much because the Chinese have a little spy drone that’s literally this big. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And they just have bug drones, mosquitoes. I’m sure our government does too. There’s no way the Chinese are the only ones who do it. Especially if they really have been back engineering UFOs for the last 40, 50 years.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I don’t think that any other government is as advanced in regards to that topic as we potentially are. And I say that because if that were the case, then they would be the world superpower.

JOE ROGAN: I agree with that. But I also think that even though we probably have the best military contractors, we also get infiltrated by the Chinese government and the Russian government all the time.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, that’s.

JOE ROGAN: They’re always.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And Congress gets infiltrated?

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

Chinese Infiltration and Technology Concerns

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: How many people have all of a sudden hot Chinese girlfriends? No comment on that.

JOE ROGAN: Guys are weak. We’re so weak. All you have to do is be hot and we’re stupid. We fall.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: He’s my biggest fan, that guy.

JOE ROGAN: Of course, there’s always going to be people like that that infiltrate universities, that infiltrate research centers. They get information back to the CCP. There’s that famous story I think Mark Andreessen told us about how was it in Berkeley? I forget what the corporation was, but the power went down. And so all these CCP people panicked because they were supposed to send the information back. And if they don’t, hey, maybe your grandmother doesn’t get her medicine. Maybe your family gets a visit. You have to be on time.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The University of Michigan has now had two. I think those agroterrorism was University of Michigan.

JOE ROGAN: It’s all over the country they’ve been infiltrated by these governments have very cleverly inserted their ideology into these universities. Yuri Bezmenov talked about this, that Russia was doing this in the 1980s. It was 1984.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: The one thing that’s been interesting is, and a lot of people aren’t talking about, there’s one representative member Republican from California that’s addressing it, but when they have surrogates, have children here for US Citizenship, but then they take them back and fully integrate them and educate them in China. And so technically they’re US Citizens, but they are being totally raised with the ideology and perspective of the Chinese government. And that’s an interesting perspective.

JOE ROGAN: And then they come back over here and they’re full US Citizens.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yep.

JOE ROGAN: Working for the Chinese government.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yes. Access to all of our resources, everything. Education system.

JOE ROGAN: And then we sell the Chinese government land around our military bases.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, that has been. I love our libertarian brothers and sisters, but I have gone into so many debates on this because they’re like, “Well, we shouldn’t limit an American’s ability to actually sell their property.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but the Chinese government literally wants to eliminate the west as we know it.” And so we have to be cognizant of that.

And also, it’s not just buying a military installation. You think that they’re not actually putting tech and observing, monitoring, pulling all of our resources? Not just that.

JOE ROGAN: Mike Baker talked about this on the podcast that they sell cell phone towers, Huawei to these companies. Well, Huawei, which they were really problematic, but they sell these cell phone towers near these bases. And so they sell them at a discount. And then the Huawei stuff was crazy because it actually had third party access built into some of their systems.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And a lot of the tech that they actually sell here, whether it’s to our law enforcement. So anytime you have specifically, I would say, within even our craning and our actual shipping operations, those things are sending signals back home.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, well, we’re so stupid we can’t make those things.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, we should be making. So there’s policy chambers where if you have an American business, you can now actually get a big tax incentive for manufacturing back home.

JOE ROGAN: That’s great, but it’s going to take 10 years for us to even catch up to where they are now.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: We just got to stay the course.

JOE ROGAN: What a dumb idea. Everyone has a cell phone. No one can make a phone. What is that? No one saw that coming. That’s bananas. All of them get made in China.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It came out in the 70s for manufacturing. And I think that’s where you’re seeing this aspect of people that are very – if you talk about – and I’m not an isolationist by any means, but I do believe that we should have, especially with COVID everyone saw this. We should have certain things that are just manufactured here. I think tech is extremely important. I think Palmer Luckey’s doing laptops or something now in the United States or trying to actually move that over.

Tech Monopolies and AI Competition

JOE ROGAN: Elon should make a phone. I bet he’s thinking about it because he’s in some sort of a dispute right now with Apple because Apple won’t – there’s something about the way Grok AI shows up and he’s saying that their algorithm is essentially rigged. Where OpenAI is – Grok AI is never featured.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, really? I have something about an app on my phone, but.

JOE ROGAN: So maybe that’ll incentivize him to make a phone.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Elon, make a phone and we’ll try it out.

JOE ROGAN: “Elon Musk says Apple is rigging the app store for ChatGPT. The tech mogul is threatening immediate legal action, accusing the iPhone maker of unequivocal antitrust violation designed to favor his AI rival.”

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, is his AI rival Sam Altman?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. That’s interesting. I wonder if that – I mean, you don’t just say something like that, do you?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No, no. He definitely – he’s not a dummy. He’s smart. There’s definitely something.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, readers added context “2025 Deep Seek reached number one.” And Deep Seek’s the Chinese one, right?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, and Deep Seek’s freaky about some of the stuff that it can do.

JOE ROGAN: “Just one month ago, Perplexity also reached number one overall in India’s App Store. Both of these occurred after the OpenAI Apple partnership announced on June 10, 2024.” But what about the United States? Because the United States is the biggest market when it comes to – we’re probably the highest percentage of people that use Apple in the world.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s literally when you go to buy a phone, it’s usually an iPhone.

JOE ROGAN: I think it’s something crazy with kids. It’s 84% or something like that.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, don’t get me – if you have a kid, keep them off phones as long as you can.

JOE ROGAN: Yes, for sure. But the point is, the App Store in America, that is the monopoly in this country if you want to get an app. I mean, it’s not a monopoly, but the leader, the head leader.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: To be honest with you, I’ve only ever had an iPhone and so that’s the only platform I’ve ever used. I know, it’s Android versus iPhone.

JOE ROGAN: No, I have both. They’re both really good. Android’s way better than it used to be.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But it’s still freaky.

JOE ROGAN: I had it back in the day, but it’s right there where an iPhone is right now, just different. And gives you a lot more access to stuff.

Privacy Concerns and Secure Phones

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, it’s so freaky though. Then you have these phones that are considered actual safe phones that aren’t ripping your data and basically turning on every 10 minutes to kind of be able to target you for sales, whatever it might be. I can tell you that given my job and some of this stuff, I am totally freaked out by having an iPhone. And I look forward to the day where I don’t have to have a phone. I’m going to get a flip phone.

JOE ROGAN: They’re going to already have a chip in your head by then.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No, absolutely. Me of all people, no chips. We’re chip free.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know if there are any phones that really, truly are safe. I mean, I know that there are some phones that run on alternative operating systems that aren’t Google. What is that alternative system that they use with Pixel phones that now, at least the French government, when they find people that have Google phones, they immediately look at that person as a point of interest.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: That’s because they’re like, “We can’t track you.”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Because they’re using this other operating system. What is it called again? I can’t remember. But it’s what Adam Curry uses. It’s a de-Googled iPhone that uses an alternative operating system. So this doesn’t send data. I’m sure the GPS sucks. It’s probably called graphene. That’s right, Graphene OS.

So there’s multiple different OSes that people use outside of the Google, but you can only use it on Android phones and a lot of people use it on Pixel phones. You can actually buy them. What is that guy’s name? The Asian gentleman who has that? Rob Braxton. He sells them and he is a security advocate. He’s always talking to you about how insecure all of your technology is and explaining why they added this and what this means now and where your data is going and how they can track you.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s made me.

JOE ROGAN: So he sells de-Googled iPhones. Oh, he’s a response to Joe Rogan. “Joe Rogan is wondering what I’m hiding. Five years ago I was just saying what’s – he’s scared.” So this guy’s been at this forever, right? So five years ago we were talking about him and he was making these phones five years ago.

FISA and Government Surveillance

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, and from a government perspective, you have this aspect of – a lot of people don’t want to reform FISA. FISA in the way that it can surveillance Americans is pretty freaky. We would like.

JOE ROGAN: Really freaky.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Really freaky. And I actually did not get a committee assignment on House Armed Services as a vet because I voted against FISA and I was one of two that voted against it. And they said that I was not a team player. But when you actually look at.

JOE ROGAN: Playing for the team seems to be an ongoing thing.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I am playing for the team, but it’s just not the nutty team.

JOE ROGAN: Isn’t that a nutty thing to say? Whatever happened to representative of the people? What are we doing?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: There’s still a few good representatives. I believe it’s few to part between.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I think it’s hard. It’s probably hard to stay course. It’s probably hard to keep your morals and your ethics when everyone around you isn’t.

Political Integrity and Pressure

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: You have to not. So some of the best representatives, best even people in government are the ones that did not have to do this job.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And that’s because if you’re giving up something to come here, it means that you’re doing it for the right reasons. If you have nothing to gain from this position and this is the only thing you’ve ever wanted to be, you’re usually not the best person for that job.

And I say that because you are then only going to do what it takes to get reelected, which means that you are willing to compromise your principles because there will be decisions that you have to take where you’re going to have to stand firm on your principles and be like, “I can’t vote for that.”

And there’s massive pressure campaigns. When a certain bill comes up, if I’m voting against it, you have planted stories in the press. You have super PACs that will come in and drop text messages in your district to your constituents saying, “Did you know that Representative so and so voted against this?” And so you have to be able to be like, “All right, I’m just going to just disconnect.” And at a certain point, you do have to do that, because then you’ll go crazy.

JOE ROGAN: You’ll definitely go crazy if you read all the bots.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, you can’t read. Don’t fight with the bots. Don’t fight with the bots.

JOE ROGAN: No, people do read them. It’s just interesting that representatives today, some of them are kind of characters, where they become.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s Gotham.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Where they become popular. Fetterman is popular.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: He’s changed that. He actually makes sense on stage.

JOE ROGAN: Much more reasonable than most. Yeah, he’s a logical guy. He’s a very nice guy. I think it’s hilarious that he still wears the hoodie and the shorts. He’s exploiting a rule.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: He is in the Senate kind of right.

JOE ROGAN: He’s kind of right. And that is really how he likes to dress. When I saw him in DC, it was 10 degrees out. This dude had shorts on and a hoodie, a Carhartt hoodie. And he’s just – but that’s genuinely him. I think he’s a good guy.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, he’s a big guy, too. So there’s only his.

JOE ROGAN: Probably sweats a lot. Probably easily warm, likes to wear.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Not saying that we know he sweats, but just, for sure he does.

Political Characters and Bipartisan Cooperation

JOE ROGAN: He’s a big guy. But yeah, no, he’s reasonable. But the point is, he’s kind of a character. Like Jasmine Crockett’s a character. AOC. A character. There’s characters and they’re like main characters in this political show that we’re all watching on television.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oversight. So I actually was on oversight with all these people, except for Fetterman. And what I’ll tell you is the oversight tends to bring out the characters, for sure.

And what I will say is that actually I have been able to on certain things. Like with AOC, I introduced a piece of legislation. So there was a partner bill in the Senate with Bernie Sanders and I think Josh Holland to cap credit card interest at 10%. And then we started getting. I started getting a lot of heat for it because people were like, “you can’t do that.” And I was like, “well, most of these banks that we’re talking about are actually taking government bailouts. So if you’re taking a government bailout and you’re essentially operating off the goodwill of the federal government, then you should be held as standard, because then you have predatory lending.”

And what ends up happening is some of these people will take out credit or max out their credit cards in them for the rest of their life. They’re paying back the debt. And then also there’s something that we’ve been able to introduce. So this is like the more populous representation where you see both the right and the left kind of agree on certain things. And there’s another bill that I’m introducing with another Democrat and another Republican that’s a more moderate Republican, but it’s actually to cap student loan interest at 2.5%.

The Student Debt Crisis

JOE ROGAN: That would be wonderful, because I was just going to ask you about that. I was reading this woman on X and she was talking about how she graduated with student loans that equaled, I think it was $28,000. She’s paid off. She’s never missed a payment, paid off $24,000, and she still owes $60,000.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. So what they do is they actually, and I’ve been quoted on this, but it creates an indentured servant. Basically, for the rest of their life, they’re paying off this debt. And you can never actually function in a pocket.

JOE ROGAN: Right. That’s absolutely insane. If she’s telling the truth, and I believe she is, that’s absolutely insane. That you could owe $60,000 plus after a $28,000 loan when you’ve paid $24,000 of it off.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: For people that are actually trying to better themselves, that might have to take out loans for that, it’s crippling. And then they actually can’t get a good start at being contributing members of society.

JOE ROGAN: Exactly, exactly. If you want to make America great again, have less people in debt, have less losers.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Opportunity.

JOE ROGAN: Opportunity, yeah. Have more people that can get things going on because they’re not burdened by some crazy debt. That really is not right. It’s not right that you do that to an 18 year old kid, saddle them down like that for the rest of their life.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And to be clear, I’m not talking about student loan forgiveness. I think you’re not either. But I had to join the military, I paid for my college using the GI Bill and so do I think student loans forgiveness is fair? No. But is this a way that we can actually make a happy medium to where people are actually given the opportunity to pay back the debt? And yes, and so I look forward to introducing that. But that’s a piece of legislation that should be on the floor and that it’s not.

Education Reform and School Choice

JOE ROGAN: I think in an ideal world education is free. In an ideal country where you really care about the people and you really want more success stories, education is free, difficult to get into, you have to be qualified, a true meritocracy. But education should be free. And if these certain people from different parts of the country don’t seem to be getting in address that, figure out what’s wrong with their school system and throw federal funds at that, it’s not impossible to figure out why certain school systems are doing poorly and other ones are doing great.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I will tell you from a personal lens and perspective. So when I was in my freshman year in high school I moved up to LA with my mom and by the time I graduated I went to six high schools and an adult school that’s actually I barely graduated. And what I will say is that one of the high schools I went.

JOE ROGAN: To watch them go to different schools.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It just how it ended up functioning. So my freshman year my mom went through a divorce, my dad got arrested. So I have an interesting background. So there was that lot of stuff. Yeah. But I ended up actually going to Venice High School one of these times. And that was around my junior year.

And what the LA Unified School District was doing at the time, they were actually busing in kids from other parts of LA County. And at the time, specifically in the early 2000s, there was a big issue with the black and Chicano gangs in LA. And so what was happening outside in the neighborhoods was carrying on into the school districts. And when you have gang activity and kids, the only opportunity that they have is being able to join a gang and that’s it. They’re never going to go to college, they’re never going to have the opportunity. And so that carries on into the education system. They’re never given a chance.

And so I think in Florida, we’ve been doing it right with school choice. President Trump’s been pretty big on that. But being able to give students or their parents the ability to send them to good schools without gang activity outside of their zip code, that matters, and that does impact people.

JOE ROGAN: And cracking down on gang activity.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So there was a kid that was shot in the parking lot of my school. And shot and killed. You had actually pulled the article, Venice High School School shooting.

JOE ROGAN: No, listen, you don’t have to tell me. Venice was crazy back.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Back before it was gentrified. It was rough.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And it’s kind of getting crazy now with homeless people.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I haven’t been back since I basically left in. So when I was 19, I joined the military, and then my mom ended up leaving California with my little brother and sister probably about five years ago now.

JOE ROGAN: Venice is always such an interesting part of LA because it’s like LA, but really weird. Weird people, interesting.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: LA is weird, though, as a whole.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. But Venice has a surf culture, Dog Town. Dog Town. There’s a lot of people that are artists that live there that affects the vibe of the place. Venice in the 90s was really cool.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, in the early 2000s, it was cool too, but it was rough. I mean, I.

JOE ROGAN: What’s always been filled with crime?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, I got jumped. Yeah. And when I was jumped. Yeah, I got jumped in high school. I swear, part of the reason why I’m such a huge advocate for standing up to bullies is probably because of that. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Damn.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Venice was rough back in the day.

JOE ROGAN: I had a buddy of mine who lived there in the park where he used to take his kid. Someone got shot in it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And he’s like, “okay, great. Where do I take my kid now? I can’t.”

Overcoming Adversity and Personal Stories

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Honestly. So seeing all that, though, being able to see that and then kind of tell that story, I do think that there’s power in that because people. There’s people that go through that and think, “man, I might not be able to be successful.” But that’s not true. You can always fight your way out of it. I joined the military at 19. Best thing I ever did.

And I met a lot of other people in the military who grew up in inner city Chicago or wherever it was. They were able to go back and help their family and to my mom’s credit, my mom also has an incredible story, but she had me at 20 years old, single mom. My dad ended up eventually getting clean, but my husband and I moved him in with us and then he got sober. And so that story in itself, I think, you tell your story and it empowers other people, especially to be fighters and not just give up.

JOE ROGAN: A lot of people have bad childhoods.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. And people aren’t going to tell you that. No one’s going to be like, you know, but.

JOE ROGAN: But it’s also great for someone to hear a story like yours or someone who came out of a similar childhood, maybe that they’re having or maybe even worse than they’re having. And you see what you’ve been able to do. That’s powerful to people.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, and it is. And it’s powerful, I think, to an idea that would box certain people, whether you’re a woman or you’re Hispanic, into this stereotype on how you should believe and think and.

JOE ROGAN: Vote or you’re poor. You come from a single mom. I think that was one of the most important things about Obama becoming president. We heard, “oh, guys comes from a single mom and he became the president of the United States.” It was like, for a lot of people, it’s like, “okay, relatable.” Yeah, well, maybe my life isn’t what I wished it would be, but look what that guy’s able to accomplish. Maybe I can do something too, instead of thinking I’m going to be a loser forever.

Media Attacks and Identity Politics

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Well, what was interesting is I shared my story. So remember I told you I started out as an activist and I would tell people this because I do feel like too, at a certain sense when you tell your story, you can share that you’re empowering other people to take something and turn it into a positive.

And within maybe a couple weeks of me getting elected, I all of a sudden started having this Washington Post reporter reaching out to my family and actually asked my mom whether she had proof that my grandmother had actually passed away HIV positive.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, God.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And was harassing her.

JOE ROGAN: Trying to catch you.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Lies. Yeah. And so they put out this nasty, nasty article about me, basically trying to say that I had fabricated my dad’s incarceration record. They had tried to say that I was a registered Democrat in Washington. All this stuff that was categorically false. And I had actually gotten contacted from my old target. Oh, it was terrible.

But I had receipts. And so after this came out. I said, “no, hold up.” And I actually gave Fox News all of my stuff that I had and I was able to refute. And then Time magazine had actually reached out and they said, “would you mind if we conduct an interview on your background?” I said, “have at it. Here’s my information.” I had actually even gotten my DNA done to prove that I’m Hispanic because of the fact that I’m lighter skinned. When I got elected, there was this controversy on how Hispanic was I. And it was actually a thing. I’m like, I’m not. This is like Speedy Gonzalez with a sombrero running around. It’s like, what am I supposed to be?

JOE ROGAN: That’s so racist, guys. That’s so racist. How is better. Isn’t that funny that that’s the time where the left is allowed to be racist?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It was so crazy.

JOE ROGAN: That is such a crazy thing to say. How Hispanic is she? How black are you exactly, Mr. Obama? You don’t look that black to me.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It was crazy. But I actually gave all this information to Time magazine.

JOE ROGAN: Can you imagine saying that to Obama? How black are you?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: When people would ask me actually mention that to a reporter, actually, because of the fact that he’s half white and half black. And I said, “I’m sorry, last time I checked, am I not allowed to be white too?” Because there’s this aspect of I wasn’t Hispanic enough because I’m white, but then also this aspect of I’m not white enough because I’m Hispanic. So which one are you?

JOE ROGAN: Oh, boy, that’s so ridiculous. That’s such a ridiculous thing to ask. It’s like, it goes in the face of what’s supposed to be about their principles. Their principles are supposed to be not seeing color at all.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Oh, there’s a lot.

JOE ROGAN: They’re going to attack you and say you’re pretending to be Hispanic or that you’re barely Hispanic and not Hispanic enough. What percentage are you?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’m half.

Political Attacks and Media Coverage

JOE ROGAN: That’s 50 percent.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’m so crazy. And then I had to explain, though, to a reporter, I said, “Well, if my mom’s half and my dad’s half, what does that make me?” And she goes, “A quarter.” I said, “No, that’s not.”

JOE ROGAN: I’m 3/4 Italian. Imagine someone saying, “I’m not Italian.” That’s hilarious. That’s so racist. That’s such a crazy thing that they allow it as long as it’s coming from their side.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: And also, too, if I were on the other side, I’d probably be like a rock star. So, long story short. So this article comes out. Time magazine investigates. After doing like 20 something hours on background, I gave them all the evidence and they actually ended up writing an article on me called “The Influencer that came to Congress” and then named me as Time magazine’s next 100 most influential in the World.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s nice of them.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I’m just glad that it vindicated me because it was not a fun spot to be in.

The Problem with Political Reporting

JOE ROGAN: It’s just weird. I know that it’s always going to be a part of politics, but it’s so disruptive, disappointing as an enlightened culture that we don’t disavow that kind of reporting and recognize from both sides how detrimental it is to finding out what’s real and what’s true.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It was done though, because of the fact that people like me specifically don’t meet a certain stereotype. And so it was an effort to discredit that effort.

JOE ROGAN: I get it.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: But it’s like, for people, wondering why? And so I think most.

JOE ROGAN: People are going to know why they did it. It’s pretty obvious. But it’s just bizarre that we allow it as long as it’s from our side. Progressives will allow like the most devious behaviors from their side. Republicans do the same thing, the most devious shit, as long as it’s beneficial to their side.

That’s what’s really stupid and we need to disavow that. You could disagree with someone, don’t think they’re the right person for the job, vote against them. That’s all great, but when you start deceiving people with false depictions of who a person is and making up a bunch of stupid shit and calling into question how Hispanic they are, it’s so ridiculous.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Just stop.

JOE ROGAN: This is childish. It’s like, this shouldn’t be where we’re at in 2025. It shouldn’t be where we’re at as a mature nation. We’re 300 years old now. Figure it out.

Family Impact of Political Attacks

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It was, I think it was actually for my mom especially. I’ve been through the ringer politics. So I’m kind of battle hardened for it. I’m like, “Oh, another hippie.” So I don’t care. But it was my mom and what she was subjected to. And I was like, my mom is really cool. She put herself through law school when I was in high school. She left an abusive marriage, she has come a long way. And so for her to be treated like that, I was like, it’s like one thing in politics, you leave a family out of it.

JOE ROGAN: It’s immoral, it’s gross. And again, it’s one of those things that we shouldn’t tolerate, we shouldn’t be doing it, we shouldn’t advocate for it, we shouldn’t be happy if it’s done against the side that’s ideologically opposed to other.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s gross.

JOE ROGAN: It’s gross. It’s gross. As a civilized group of human beings that calls itself a country, it’s gross. There’s other ways to do it. You don’t have to just be a twat all the time.

Debate vs. Personal Attacks

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I prefer debating on ideology tends to be the best. But people always. It’s like in fighting, you can’t just go and sucker punch someone. It’s kind of like the same thing. And that was kind of. They tried to sucker punch me and I was like, it’s also Jackie Chan.

JOE ROGAN: You don’t have to be fighting. If you believe what you believe and you have a rational argument, you can have a conversation. And this seems to be something that people don’t want to do anymore. For some weird reason. They want to just stick to what they think, stick to what they believe. And they don’t want to hear a rational opposing viewpoint because they’re so married to their stupid ideas.

Social Media’s Impact on Politics

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s a lot interesting how Congress functions when the cameras are off. And I think people would definitely change their opinion because a lot of people will do it for clicks. Ratings and social media has not helped with that because people are looking for what can go viral next.

There’s like this viral theory that people, they think that they can only be successful in their policy or their argument, whether it’s committee hearings or whatever, they want that clip that they can post and then get notoriety for. So social media has been both a blessing and a curse in this social media sphere or in the political sphere, because you can get your information out directly to the American people using it and refute bad information.

But then there’s also this aspect of like, I wish people could see the conversations that take place behind the scenes because it wouldn’t be so inflammatory, basically, is what I’m saying.

JOE ROGAN: That makes sense. Well, full transparency will come with the chip. Anna, just put the chip in your brain.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: No chips, don’t put it.

JOE ROGAN: Everybody will have full transparency. It seems like this whole thing, your whole journey, becoming involved in politics has been pretty stressful.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s definitely not something I want my son to do.

Journey into Politics

JOE ROGAN: Is it what you thought it was? What did you think it was going to be like before you got in and what was different once you got in there?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: So when I first started out in politics, I started out as. So I joined the military at 19. I paid my way through college. I wanted to be a doctor. So I got into a med school program at SGU in Grenada and I was supposed to go to that.

And then, I kid you not, like the day before I was supposed to leave, I got recruited to work for a nonprofit to basically help lead out Hispanic activism nationally. And I thought that’s how I could make a difference. And then I realized that as part of that job they were putting me on television. I had a booker and so I was talking about stuff happening, but it was more the commentary on inflammatory things.

I actually wanted to address what was happening with human trafficking and I actually requested the State Department’s report. I was a big activist with it. I was working with a non profit at the time and I realized that they only wanted me to talk about what was getting them the ratings. And so I did realize I was like, “Well they keep though talking about what people in D.C. are doing. So if I want to change the discussion, I have to go to Washington to do it.”

So I called my husband, I was like, “We’re going to run for office.” He goes, “What do you mean we?”

JOE ROGAN: We?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, what do you mean? I was like, “Well, from what I gather, everyone’s like a team effort” and it’s totally true. If you’re a spouse isn’t on board, good luck because politics is nasty. And so he ended up basically figuring it out with me.

And for someone like me, there’s no how to manual how to run from office. It’s usually family, like literally family affairs where like people like their parent did it or they have like a direct immediate tie to it. So I figured it out and now that I’m in office, I’m realizing that I can make it impact to an extent with some influence. But it would be a lot more helpful if there were 10 other of me.

And so when I’m done in office, I’m going to help recruit younger candidates that have the ideological perspective I do to run them and then I’m going to help do things for them behind the scenes to help get them in.

JOE ROGAN: You’re going to be a mastermind behind the scenes.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: To help.

The Broken System

JOE ROGAN: It just seems like a super broken process.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s so. I’ve traveled a lot. I’ve seen a lot of other parliaments. I’m a member of the House Democracy Partnership Institute. I’ve gone to a lot of countries. And we still have the best system.

JOE ROGAN: I believe that.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah, but we need that.

JOE ROGAN: But I still believe it’s a mess.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It’s a mess, though, because good people don’t want to run. And they have to.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Young people have to run.

JOE ROGAN: It’s also a mess because the people that have been in positions of power for so long are so set in their ways and are so deeply ingrained in the system. And all the tension tentacles of all these different special interests and all the money that’s all connected to all these decisions is so. It’s just so. I don’t know if it’s possible to unwind all that stuff.

Fresh Blood and System Change

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: It is if you have enough fresh blood. So how do you shock a system? Right. And you need to infuse it. And so right now we have an interesting time period because we have division. So going back to kind of the declassification efforts that we’ve been working on. For the first time in U.S. history, you have an aspect of the government that’s being transparent and releasing information. We’re helping wherever we can on that.

But that is only possible because the right people with the right mindset were appointed in those agencies to be able to try to force the system to do something. But there’s this aspect of. That’s just the executive branch, but you have the legislative branch, and the legislative branch needs younger people that want to do this because they truly believe in fixing the system.

And you cannot be a pessimist in this job or else you will go crazy. Yeah, I would imagine you would go crazy. So you have to be an optimist and understand that there is a solution for it. And going back to kind of those quantum breadcrumbs. I’ve had enough stuff happen where I know I’m on the right path. But I also think that part of what I’m supposed to do is to help other people do this. So I’m going to help kind of execute that mission.

Future Plans

JOE ROGAN: How much longer are you going to be in office?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: I don’t know, but not definitely in the next 10 years, I promise you. I’m going to be with a beekeeper and a flip phone and that’s it. No Internet. Just off the grid.

JOE ROGAN: Well, if I’m still doing a podcast. Then let’s talk. Tell me about the. Hopefully then we’ll know UFOs are real. They’ve already landed.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: At least we get some declassified stuff, right?

JOE ROGAN: Hopefully. Remember back when we didn’t know who killed JFK?

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Yeah. Well, now we know.

JOE ROGAN: Well, thank you very much for being here. Really appreciate.

ANNA PAULINA LUNA: Thank you.

JOE ROGAN: Bye, everybody.

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