Transcript: Security Expert Gavin de Becker on Joe Rogan Podcast #2411

Let’s reflect on whether that’s ever happened. But anyway, if that happened, we’d be stressed, and rightfully we’d have a lot to complain about.

But it goes on. And it’s kind of, my theme for today is sharing these things that are all available on Wikipedia. I’m not making them up. They’re all real. And I looked at them from the point of view of a criminologist, where I really lay out the evidence. And my purpose, my reason for doing this today with you also in a book, my reason is that I really want to encourage Americans to be skeptical, because if you don’t have skepticism, the government runs us. We don’t run the government.

JOE ROGAN: Absolutely. Yeah.

The Smith-Mundt Act and Modern Propaganda

JOE ROGAN: And it’s a strange time for that because, first of all, one of the things that happened was the Smith-Mundt Act, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right.

JOE ROGAN: So when, during the Obama administration, when they made it legal to use propaganda on American citizens, that blurred the lines of truth and reality for all of us forever, unless that is somehow or another rolled back. And I don’t see any effort or any desire to roll it back. We’re always going to be stuck in a situation where it’s absolutely legal for intelligence agencies to lie to us in the interest of national security.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. That’s where we are for sure. There was, I know you already know about Project Mockingbird, but Project Mockingbird had hundreds of American journalists who were, in some cases, directly on the payroll of CIA and in other cases just had great relationships and would float ideas inside the United States. It was shut down by the Church Committee, Senate committee.

But was it really shut down or did it just change its name? Because the reality is that today, unlike in the past, all information is international. So if you start floating information overseas that’s not true, it’s going to make its way to America. And does it make sense to do this?

I remember when I was working on an investigation involving Saudi Arabia and their use of Twitter, misuse of Twitter. Twitter ended up canceling 5,000 of their accounts because they were fake, bots. But they were using Twitter to be able to float things so that they would become viral and become important.

JOE ROGAN: What time period was this?

GAVIN DE BECKER: This is very recent. This is…

JOE ROGAN: So was it X or Twitter? Was it when?

Social Media Manipulation and Information Warfare

GAVIN DE BECKER: It was Twitter 2018, 2019. And they would get things to trend. And how would they do it? Well, when Twitter shut down their bots, they had 40,000 people sitting in their houses and they would send out the message of the day, like, “Jeff Bezos is the evil Jew.” He happens not to be Jewish. “Jeff Bezos is the evil Jew who’s robbing us at night,” because they were in a competition with Bezos over various things. And then it would trend.

And so when I saw that happening with Twitter, I thought to myself, well, every country should do that. I don’t mean I like it. I just mean it’s kind of obvious that if you have an opportunity to communicate with your population in a way that makes particularly young people in Saudi Arabia, they’re the ones who are going to come over the castle wall one day. If you can control their perceptions, of course, that’s what every country in world history has done.

Every country has a narrative, right? Ours was when I was growing up, and you too. Anybody can become president. The government works for us. We don’t work for the government. And other wonderful myths. So that was our narrative.

India’s narrative is, the next life matters more than this one. In the next life, you’ll have a good time. Maybe now you’re homeless. Maybe now you’re one of the 7 million homeless people in Mumbai. But next life will be better.

England’s narrative, the class structure. Just watch the king and queen. They’re having such a good time, and the princes are having such a good time. That’s good enough for you, isn’t it? And so everybody has one.

Government Control and Power Centers

And they have these stories about how they control populations, religion being, of course, the big one. Now government is at war with religion. Our US government is not liking the church anymore, is not liking other power centers.

During COVID you could go to a liquor store, you could go to a Target store. Big air conditioning, keeping all the virus nice and cool and moving around. But you couldn’t go to church. And even if they put the church outside, they wanted to stop the church.

Now, why would governments not like the church? Because it’s another power center, and so each power center needs to be knocked down.

JOE ROGAN: But is that why they did it? Because they also outlawed outdoor dining in Los Angeles. There was outlaw comedy shows.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, I’m going to give you a pretty cynical answer. Yes, that’s why they did it in general. I mean, if you think about it, the Constitution gives particular protections to the church, to religion, doesn’t give particular protections to liquor stores or big box stores. And yet that’s what happened.

But what about shows, for example, when you have a population that cannot gather for enjoyment? We’re all going to the concert and we’re going to watch this musical event, and none of us are going to say, “Oh, that guy over there voted for Trump. I hate him. Oh, that guy over there voted for Biden. That one’s woke. That one’s such and such.” We just enjoy the show. Right.

We go to the beach, which was prohibited, remember, but we go to the beach and I look over at you and your kids and your family, and you look over at mine, and we’re having a good time. Nobody’s judging anybody. We’re just there to swim.

You can divide a country in the way that it happened with us during the COVID lockdowns. That is the source of power. Division is actually the source of power.

COVID Lockdowns: Intentional Division or Necessary Response?

JOE ROGAN: But you feel like this was done on purpose. Did you think that they were capitalizing on the event of COVID or that they knew that a situation like this is an excellent opportunity for them to divide people further? Or was it just the fact that they had to act at least, they had to at least give the guise of public safety. It had to at least be performative in that they were doing something. The optics that was, they were protecting people from the spread of this disease.

The COVID Lockdowns and Government Control

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, my best way to assess things is rather than ever try to figure out what’s in somebody’s head, I just look at what actually happened. And what actually happened is that every Western nation on earth put all its citizens under house arrest. Every nation on earth did what no opposing enemy could ever do to the United States. We just had everybody staying indoors, not gathering, hundreds of thousands of businesses closed, people unable to do what they wanted to do and not free.

So I don’t think there’s any argument that during the COVID lockdowns, I’m not talking about the COVID disease. The COVID disease is this big. The lockdowns is this big. The lockdowns is as big an event as all the world wars put together. The lockdowns caused a complete lesson in government control that the governments of the world remember. It wasn’t just ours. It was almost every country could do whatever they wanted.

So do I believe it was intentional? Well, I don’t have to back up to whether the release of the COVID virus was intentional. I just don’t know. But the plans related to what would happen was clearly intentional. Your viewers can look at and listeners can look at Event 201 online. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen it on YouTube. It’s a video of an event that Gates put on with the CIA, with the Chinese head of the CDC, Chinese CDC, with military leaders, with people from CBS.

And they gathered together and they talked about what would happen in the event that there was a pandemic. And they named the pandemic and they did tabletop exercises about the pandemic. Any discussion about health? None. All of it was discussion about controlling the information. Why is this interesting? Because it was in 2019, my friend, before COVID came out. Right. So late in 2019, these tabletop operations had already been going on for years.

So I look at, and I really encourage people to consider this approach, which is forget about who did it. Forget about twirling mustaches and villains. Forget about Bill Gates and Fauci and all of that. Just look at what actually happened. If we just look at what actually happened, you have to assume somebody wanted that outcome. Somebody somewhere might be one person, it might be groups, it might be unaligned people who share incentives.

I’ll give you a fast example. COVID comes. People who used to make perfume sprayers now make hand sanitizers. People who used to make bumper stickers now make stickers that say, “stand six feet apart.” In other words, an incentive comes, and it doesn’t require that those people all sat in a conspiratorial room at some hotel in Germany and rub their hands together and make the plan human nature, particularly when you centralize big governments. This is the direction it moves in, which is it moves in the direction of tyranny.

Tyranny as the Natural Order

When I was here before a few years ago, I made this point that’s only been cemented in the interim, which is that if you look at world history as a big pie chart, all of it is tyranny. And there’s just a tiny little sliver of the lives we’ve been blessed to live up until 2020, meaning a tiny sliver of freedom, Western Europe, the United States, and all the rest is tyranny, which means tyranny is the natural order for human beings. That’s the way it normally is run.

JOE ROGAN: You could easily argue that with history.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right, of course. And, you know, what you see is, look, any suffering that I’ve done in the last few years personally has been because of my resistance to let go of the illusions and delusions that I grew up with. You know, the courts will be fair, the government will respect our freedom no matter what. The Constitution will be followed no matter what. It’s hard to let go of that stuff. It’s not easy. And I still have resistance to it. That’s why I look at Gladio, which I just told you about, and I say, holy s*, can you believe this? Well, we have to be able to believe all of it.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s just there’s so many layers to it. It’s very difficult for regular people.

GAVIN DE BECKER: What is a regular person?

The Depth of Conspiracy and Truth

JOE ROGAN: Regular person is a person who has a job and interest and family and hasn’t spent an inordinate amount of time delving into conspiracies and being rational about it and being objective and saying, I know that every fiber of my being rejects this as foolishness and tinfoil hat bulls*, but is this real? And then the more you find out, oh, my God, that is real.

The more you find out, Operation Northwoods. Holy f*, that’s real. The more you find out about these things, MK Ultra, you go, what? Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Nobody got arrested for any of this. Nobody went to jail, nobody got prosecuted, nobody got tried. The more you dig into the JFK assassination, the more you dig into everything. And it is a bottomless pit that if you haven’t breached the surface of it, you have no idea how much depth there is to it. And that’s the normal person.

Most people. You know, most people took the shot because they wanted to keep their job, or they took the shot because they have to travel to see relatives or they had to visit loved ones in the hospital or whatever the reason was. They did what they had to do. And, you know, they know people that got fed up because of the shot. Maybe they got fed up because of the shot, and they feel helpless and they don’t know what to do.

But I don’t think they understand the depths of, first of all, not just the COVID pandemic, but what happened during the AIDS pandemic with the exact same power structure. And when you find that out, I mean, we went over Peter Duesberg’s work the other day.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, I’m so glad.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And we showed the article in Spin magazine that was talking about these various doctors that stepped up, stepped out against the use of AZT and what was going on and how evil it was. And the only reason why they were doing it was because these are drugs that had already been approved and they could just push them through quickly. And they were very profitable.

The AIDS Crisis and AZT

GAVIN DE BECKER: I think there’s a darker reason, and the darker reason for overdosing on AZT is that it provides exactly the symptoms of AIDS that you’re going to die from.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And so it keeps the, you know, the great documentary that’s on YouTube is called House of Numbers about this. It keeps the numbers going. You can turn the numbers up or down just by changing the definition of what is AIDS. Fauci had his definition, but in that documentary, it’s Fauci and Redfield. They’re all young. It’s one of their first rounds in this world and they’re making the case that HIV is the absolute cause of AIDS.

Even though literally, the guy who got the Nobel Prize for concluding that feels that you can have AIDS without HIV and you can have HIV without AIDS. I’ve raised ten kids. I have two teenage kids. One of my older boys, but 31 years old now tested positive for HIV. Right away come the drugs. And he and I met about it. We watched this documentary called House of Numbers. And he decided no medication.

He’s really healthy. He’s in the sun a lot. He’s having a calm and wonderful life. He lives in Fiji, so he’s out in the tropics a lot. And when he took the medication for three weeks, he felt really sty. Wasn’t AZT, it’s the newer cocktail, but he felt really sty when he stopped. He feels great, and we’ll see how things go. But the idea that they were trying to push was if you test positive for HIV, they say it point blank, you will die from this disease. And there’s nothing that can stop it except these drugs. And that turns out not to be true.

The Gay Community and Drug Use

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s a lot of things they said that turned out not to be true. They thought that your children would get it, people in the household would get it, that it was spread, it could be spread aerosol. You know, there was a, the Duesberg thing is fascinating because this all took place in a time with no Internet, no pushback, no conspiracy theorists online to connect the dots.

And his assertion was, first of all, there was the inconvenient fact that the vast majority of the people that got air quotes, AIDS, all were hardcore drug users. There were these partiers in the gay community. And anybody that knows anything about drug use knows that if you’re a hardcore drug user and you’re staying up all night and you’re partying, guess what? You’re going to crush your immune system.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And you know, they were taking antibiotics, which were at the parties in big bowls. Antibiotics, yeah, because they had all this was a tremendous amount of sex. It was almost a statement of freedom in the gay rights movement. And the people had all kinds of infections. So they were scooping up antibiotics and taking antibiotics. And of course, AIDS is real. They destroyed their immune system. No question about it. And poppers and Duesberg.

JOE ROGAN: Poppers is the big one, right? Amyl nitrate.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, poppers certainly causes the specific respiratory issue that was associated with AIDS. And they kept changing, you know, the NIH and CDC kept changing the definition along the way. And there’s a great line in The Real Anthony Fauci, a book I know you read where Bobby says, if you get diagnosed with AIDS in Africa, the fastest way to get cured is go to New York, you won’t be diagnosed with AIDS. Totally different diagnostic method.

In Africa, it’s mostly women. In the United States, it’s mostly men. And the diagnostic method in Africa includes asking you on a questionnaire whether you’ve engaged in gay sex. What does that have to do with an AIDS test? I took an AIDS test when I was younger and thought, well, this is a test, like a pregnancy test, right? You test positive, that means you’re positive. Negative means negative. That wasn’t the, it was a highly interpretive test.

And by the way, this documentary I’ve mentioned a couple of times called House of Numbers for its humorous value. I have to also add that anybody who looks for it on YouTube, be sure you have the one that is the correct one, because the adversaries have put up another documentary entitled it House of Numbers.

JOE ROGAN: They did the same thing with Turtles All the Way Down.

Disinformation and Documentary Manipulation

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s very clever. And then that one debunks the, you know, that one debunks the other one. So it’s House of Numbers by a great filmmaker named Brent Leung. L-U-E-N-G. And it’s just a totally enjoyable. Enjoyable. Is that the right word? But informative documentary on another one of these sacred cows that we are not allowed to question.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the Duesberg one was the first time that I ever had someone on as a podcast guest where I got massive pushback. People were like, there’s blood on your hands. First of all, who’s dying of AIDS in 2015, right, or whatever year it was that I had him on. But his assertion was that HIV was a weak disease, that it was a weak virus that was only showing up in the systems of people that were already compromised. It was not the cause of it. It was a symptom of a compromised immune system.

The HIV/AIDS Controversy and Peter Duesberg

GAVIN DE BECKER: Very poor people in Africa, people with no effective sewage, et cetera. And it was another of many, many movements that has the side effect of reducing population, meaning use condoms, don’t have sex. Sex is scary, sex is death. A lot of these things focus on and have the ultimate result of population reduction, which I’m going to come back to.

But I want to say something about Duesberg because it’s so funny. In House of Numbers, when he’s interviewed, he says, “My peers are prostitutes.” And he says, “I am a prostitute as well, to some degree.” He’s talking about trying to get funding, he says, but they go all the way. It’s just a funny line.

He’s a lovely man. He’s doing fine now. I talked to somebody recently who takes care of him. His son takes care of him. I was reaching out to see if he needed anything because I would take care of this guy for the rest of his life. He was a real hero. And they buried him in the… I mean, I don’t mean buried him dead. I mean, they stuck him in the basement at Berkeley. And he never got another grant. Needless to say, in all those years, even though he was headed for a Nobel Prize, he was a great thinker. So I didn’t ever see the show you did. You did it in 2015.

JOE ROGAN: It was probably even earlier than that. What year was that, Jamie? It might have been 13 or 14, I don’t remember. But I remember massive pushback. People were very upset.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, you got balls. But I guess you knew that from some other shows because doing it at that time, you know, the insult that goes with that one is “AIDS denier.” No, no, no. We see AIDS. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about whether HIV is always the cause of AIDS.

The AZT Question

JOE ROGAN: But there were so many facts that people were ignoring. This is what was like for me. When I see a dilemma, I see a situation and I see inconvenient facts that people are ignoring.

One of them being that AZT kills people and that it was a chemotherapy medication that they had to stop using because it was killing people quicker than the cancer was killing people. And that chemotherapy is always a very short term use. It’s for short term use. It’s when you have cancer, you take chemotherapy, it kills the cancer and it almost kills you. And then you recover from it and hopefully the cancer is gone.

This was the only chemotherapy that you were being told to stay on. That had never been the case. And so it was one, AZT killed people for sure. They were using AZT for AIDS. People were dying from AIDS or AZT, whatever. They were dying more and they stopped using it. And people stopped dying of AIDS because that’s kind of how it went.

Because they’ll try to tell you that, oh, no, it’s the new medications have stopped the spread of HIV. But why did it never make its way to the heterosexual community if it’s really a sexually transmitted disease? That’s so unbelievably contagious that it just spread through the gay community like wildfire. Why? There’s a lot of people that had gay sex and straight sex. Well, how come it never really had any meaningful transition to the heterosexual community?

There’s a lot of weird sh*t. Why do people that were totally asymptomatic, like Arthur Ashe, get on AZT and he’s dead in six months? What? Is it possible that AZT killed those people and that Peter Duesberg is right?

This was my thought. And I’m like, let me hear this guy out. Let me talk to him with a skeptical but objective mindset and see where this guy’s at. And then you find out he’s a tenured professor at University of California, Berkeley, done groundbreaking research on cancer. He’s a brilliant guy, and everything he’s saying totally, completely made sense.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yes.

JOE ROGAN: And I was like, this is so strange. And then I realized, oh, this all happened before the Internet. This all happened before he could sit on a podcast and talk about it. This all happened before people could tweet about it. This all happened before someone could make a documentary and release it on YouTube.

A Romanian Adoption Story

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s very true. By the way, another Duesberg story is that there’s a couple that adopted a baby in Romania. They’re covered in this documentary, House of Numbers, and they adopt the baby. It’s tested for AIDS in Romania, tested for HIV and negative. Gets to America. They do another test. Uh oh, the baby is HIV positive.

JOE ROGAN: So are these PCR tests?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, they’re PCR tests.

JOE ROGAN: And this is what Kary Mullis was very adamant about, that this is not the proper use of PCR and that Fauci did not know what he was doing when he was doing that. We played that video as well.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, there’s great Kary Mullis stuff. I wish he was alive. He died right before COVID unfortunately.

But anyway, so they adopt this kid, and the kid is HIV positive, little girl. And the doctors say, “Well, whoa, baby, you got to put this kid on AZT in a hurry.” So they put the kid on AZT. Now you see videos, home movies, where the kid can’t stand up, is falling, loses weight.

When they go to the doctors, they say, “Well, it’s AIDS. We’re doing our best. She’s actually doing pretty well. The medicine is keeping her alive. So just keep going.” So they keep going. She gets worse and worse and worse.

And eventually they write a letter to a guy they’ve heard about named Peter Duesberg. And to his credit, man, he was brave. He writes back, you know, in writing in a way most people wouldn’t, “Take her off that medication immediately.”

So they do. They take her off the medication. The doctors say she’s going to be dead by the time she’s five. Then they say, you know, maybe she’ll live to be seven. Then they say if she lives to be 11, it’ll be a miracle. In the meantime, she’s getting better and better and better. In the movie, cut to 23 years old, pregnant, having her own daughter.

JOE ROGAN: Jesus Christ.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, and there’s other people, it’s like…

JOE ROGAN: They had to know this.

COVID Parallels

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, but you know, this is true with COVID as well. You can be generous and say people didn’t know things early on, but it is not possible to now look back, for example, at COVID and the COVID vaccine and say they don’t know it now.

In other words, at this point, it’s not possible for Albert Bourla to say, “Oh, we had no idea about that myocarditis that would cause sudden death in kids, athletic boys go to sleep at night and they’re found dead in their bed in the morning.” Not one, not two, but many.

And right in the beginning of COVID, two different states with two different coroners did two different reports that both said these kids who were found in their bed dead in the morning, 16 years old, both of them two days apart, died from vaccine induced myocarditis. Now clearly that should have been the biggest news story in the world. Imagine if we were all taking it, right?

JOE ROGAN: COVID happened before the Internet.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, well, things did happen before the Internet.

JOE ROGAN: But imagine if that one happened, you know.

The Internet as Double-Edged Sword

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, well, you know, in a way, Joe, you could look at swine flu in 1976 and also again in 2009, which were before the Internet. And they actually did worse.

In a way, what the Internet did is favorably allowed engagements like we’re having today and all the stuff you’ve done, but it also allowed governments to have a control mechanism. I was looking for my iPhone, you know, right into our iPhones.

And so what was happening is they were getting better and better and better at controlling human perception. And I think it’s true that the Internet is a great gift on the one hand, but it’s also, look, there’s no way they’re going to leave the Internet untouched and not also utilize it in this basically information war that’s going on.

So the Internet has helped show some people the truth, but it’s also been used to stop a lot of other people from seeing the truth, I’m sure.

The Power of Alternative Media

JOE ROGAN: But at least there’s an avenue where people can learn the truth that didn’t exist before the Duesberg thing. The only way I found out about it was an article in Spin magazine. And I had some conspiratorially minded pothead friends. They’re like, “Dudes, AIDS isn’t real.” I was like, “What the f* are you talking about? Of course AIDS is real.”

And then I started reading books and I was like, wait a minute. This can’t be real. This can’t be true. And having him on was just absolutely fascinating.

But the blowback from all the people that were absolutely convinced that there’s no way all of these other doctors could be in agreement and be incorrect. And that gave me pause because I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Why would all these doctors be in agreement and be incorrect about this? Why would they all be promoting this false narrative?

I had no concept of how the NIH and how Fauci and how they ran things and how if you deviated from the narrative whatsoever, you got no grants, you got no funding. You lose your license. And obviously we saw in 2020, people kicked off Twitter. Esteemed scientists, professors, people that taught at major universities, removed from the conversation because they were speaking, well, Al Gore would call an inconvenient truth.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s correct. Yeah.

An Inconvenient Study

GAVIN DE BECKER: And there’s a documentary right now called, by the way, An Inconvenient Study. See that as quick as you can. It’s free on YouTube because some sponsors just paid for it. But that is about a study done by the Ford Medical Center, Henry Ford Medical Center, comparing vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids. It’s a very, very interesting documentary and where, after the study is done, they decide not to release it.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I read about that.

The Institute of Medicine and Agent Orange

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s really good. I don’t want to spoil anything, but just tell you some good stuff is hidden camera interview with the guy who says, “I just can’t. I just can’t. My career would be over. I’m just not going to do it. I’m not going to do it.”

Well, people try to persuade him to release the study that would, yes, it would help a lot of people. I agree it would help a lot of people and I agree it’s important. But “I can’t. I’ve had enough. I can’t. I can’t.” And he doesn’t. And it’s this kind of thing.

You got the stomach for another one?

JOE ROGAN: Sure.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I’ll give you a big one. So because you mentioned AIDS, AIDS is like gravity. You’re not allowed to question it. It’s a holocaust.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, holocaust, gravity, moon landing.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Hitler, by the way, was he killed by the Russians? Well, turns out the skull fragment belonged to a woman in her 30s. Isn’t it a narrative? This is the only guy who didn’t have an escape plan. Everybody else went to Argentina. They even took whole submarines all the way to Argentina on two-month trips that were found weeks after the war. They were still finding submarines in Argentina.

But this one guy, even though there’s a pilot who testified that he flew him out of Germany, flew him out of Berlin. Why would anybody lie about that? Well, because the Russians are coming into Berlin and you’ve hardly conquered anything. If Osama Bin Laden hasn’t been caught, if Hitler is free and is somewhere in the world. But that narrative is really interesting for people to dig into.

Get on Grok or get on ChatGPT now. Quick note on ChatGPT and Grok: the first answer you get will usually be the orthodox answer, the approved answer. You have to keep asking. You have to say, “Look again.” You have to push the thing and then you’ll get remarkable information that way. You still have to check it all because the thing has delusions, as we know.

Questioning Established Narratives

But my point is that all these things that we’re not allowed to question because they are just facts like gravity. Well, a big one is vaccines cannot be linked to autism. We all know that. That’s like we know it. Just like we know gravity. Just like we know the Earth rotates around the sun.

How do we know it? Now suddenly when you say who debunked it and how was it debunked, all of a sudden nobody can answer your question. Not a single pediatrician you’ll ever meet can answer that question. So I’m going to answer it today.

How do we know who debunked it? It was debunked by the Institute of Medicine. And how they debunked it I’ll talk about in a minute because it’s funny. But what is the Institute of Medicine? Well, everybody knows that’s a big, important, revered organization, all about science, part of the National Academies of Science. Government organization?

Guess what? Private organization, not a government organization. The Institute of Medicine and the National Academy of Sciences, both completely private organizations, sometimes funded by government and sometimes funded by pharma. And so they debunked it. And the way they debunked it is the same way they used for Agent Orange.

I want to talk about Agent Orange for a second. Is the long answer okay?

JOE ROGAN: Sure.

The Agent Orange Cover-Up

GAVIN DE BECKER: Okay. If I can even remember the question. But here’s the Agent Orange piece. It’s good for people to hear because they’re not emotional about it, right? They’re emotional about AIDS, they’re very emotional about vaccines and COVID and what have you, but Agent Orange people have pretty much forgotten about.

What happens is Agent Orange is used to defoliate forests and jungles in Vietnam, but it’s actually a chemical weapon. The U.S. government denies it’s a chemical weapon, but they know that. They tested it. It has dioxin in it, and they tested it on 40 unlucky monkeys. Now, these monkeys in these medical tests, they are always unlucky. They very rarely come out feeling fine. Of these 40, 37 died within a week.

So the U.S. government knew they had something here that was quite toxic. But they spray it all over Vietnam. And our troops get very, very sick. They have children with deformities. They come and they complain to the U.S. government. And the U.S. government takes that monkey study, stamps it top secret and hides it all the way till the 2000s.

When they go to the Institute of Medicine and they say, “Study this thing.” So the Institute of Medicine, I’m just going to look at my notes because I want to get it right. The Institute of Medicine does a study and the conclusion of their 2001 study, very powerful conclusion: more studies needed. That’s what they conclude for all these people who are waiting for compensation and waiting to have the answers.

To be sure with that bullshit answer, more studies needed. They do another study in 2006 and then one in 2008 and one in 2010 and one in 2012 and one in 2014, and they all come up with the same conclusion: more studies needed.

And this is one of the methods used by the U.S. Government to drag things out to where the people who are making the complaint about Gulf War Syndrome, also debunked by the Institute of Medicine, or Agent Orange, have died or given up. And there’s a bunch of examples of this.

Admiral Zumwalt’s Testimony

And so it took the Institute of Medicine 22 years to debunk this thing. And finally, the very famous Admiral Zumwalt did an independent study and he goes and testifies before Congress and I’m going to read it. He says, “Government and industry officials intentionally manipulated or withheld compelling information about the adverse health effects from Agent Orange.”

And why was his testimony so important? Because he is the person who ordered the use of Agent Orange and because his own son died from it.

JOE ROGAN: Jesus.

GAVIN DE BECKER: So you look at that and then you say, if people listening to me and you now can embrace the idea that, hey, maybe the government does that sometimes, if you can just take that on board, then maybe you can recognize that when the Institute of Medicine does the same thing with the same methods, for the same money paid by the same people with the same experts for the same reasons, then maybe you can say, “What about the other stuff they did?”

Like vaccines and autism, which is really vaccines and brain damage, which we know vaccines cause. It’s on every package insert for many, many vaccines, meaning they already acknowledge brain damage. The issue is autism, which is a clever definition, very complicated. 12,000 words in the Wikipedia article on autism just to define it and they fail. 400 citations and they end by saying, “We can’t get it.”

So it’s one of these things that you can’t hit with an arrow because the definition is so obtuse. But anyway, Institute of Medicine, they did the same thing for cancer, for baby powder, which is a great story I want to tell you. Gulf War Syndrome, silicone implants, anthrax vaccines, burn pits and SIDS, all debunked.

The Pattern of Debunking

Now what do they have in common? The government didn’t like it. They were going to have to pay compensation. I mean, some of this is funny. SIDS, how do they debunk SIDS? SIDS is the term, the category that you assign when a baby’s death cannot be determined what it is. You’ve done an autopsy, you’ve done an investigation, dragged the poor parents to the police station, you’ve done all that stuff. And you cannot decide how this baby died.

So the Institute of Medicine could look at SIDS, which is a category of death. You can’t be diagnosed with it, you can’t die from it. It’s a category. And they said, “We don’t know what causes SIDS, but we sure know what doesn’t cause it: multiple vaccines. That we’re sure of.” And this is the style of bullshit.

JOE ROGAN: There’s a correlation in terms of multiple vaccines and the amount of time period afterwards where a baby dies of sudden infant death syndrome.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, I have no doubt that sudden infant death syndrome is often caused by multiple vaccines. I have no doubt about it. And that’s for another show. And a lot of it, this book I wrote, a lot of it’s in here. I really get into explaining that fact.

But the broader point is you don’t have to prove SIDS and you don’t have to say COVID vaccines are a problem or vaccines might cause, the mercury in vaccines or other vaccines might cause brain damage. Because once you break the system that they use for this debunking, once you get into understanding how this works, can I tell you baby powder real quick?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I know about baby powder.

The Baby Powder Scandal

GAVIN DE BECKER: Okay, so Johnson and Johnson baby powder, they go to the FDA and they say, “We have to tell you something we’re a little concerned about. We have found some cancer-causing asbestos in our baby powder and we’re acknowledging it and we want to know what to do.”

And the FDA says, “Well, we’re going to study how much cancer-causing asbestos is okay in baby powder.” So they study that for 44 years and they never consider maybe zero. I mean, I had babies. I’d like zero cancer-causing asbestos in the baby powder. They never thought about zero.

But they study it for 44 years because time flies when you’re covering up something. And the FDA finally ruled on it in the year of 2024, about 10 months ago. After 52 years. They knew it for 52, I want to say f*, but I won’t swear, 52 years. And Johnson and Johnson, by the way, still claims “Our baby powder doesn’t cause cancer,” which is the worst advertising slogan in the history of the world.

JOE ROGAN: So the problem was in the places where they’re mining talc. Talc and asbestos are often together. That was the problem, correct?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, but they were able to solve the problem now because there’s still Johnson and Johnson baby powder. It’s just not made with talc. And they knew this 52 years ago. And companies like Johnson and Johnson…

JOE ROGAN: Can I stop you? What does baby powder have in it now?

GAVIN DE BECKER: I think it’s cornstarch and might be other stuff, I don’t know. But Gulf War syndrome done the same way.

JOE ROGAN: That was depleted uranium, correct?

Gulf War Syndrome and Vaccine Ingredients

GAVIN DE BECKER: Gulf War syndrome, yes. It could be a few things. There was also an ingredient in a vaccine given called squalene, which is in childhood vaccines today. It comes from shark’s liver, which is what you ought to be wanting to inject into babies whenever you can.

And in a minute I’m going to get into something really funny, but I want to say that when a child dies and vaccines are even a suspect, when it’s possible, the powers that be say, “Look, millions of vaccines were given and those people are all okay,” as if they did some house-to-house survey, which of course they didn’t do.

But that’s not how we handle air crashes. We don’t say, “Oh, millions of passengers are fine, don’t worry about those 400 who are dead in that plane crash.” What do we do? We get the black boxes, we reassemble the plane, we reconstruct what happened. And they’re extensively studied.

My point is the millions don’t matter, the few matter, meaning the ones who suffer. That’s where you want to be doing your research, not the millions who didn’t have any problem.

The Airline Crash Analogy

And imagine that we took the same approach that pharma takes when we have a jetliner crash. Pharma would say, let’s say a flight from New York to London goes down in the Atlantic 20 minutes before reaching Heathrow airport, right? Pharma would say the flight was 95% effective. Or they would say, “Hey, at least you’re better off. We got those passengers closer to London.”

In other words, they literally put death out of the equation and focus just on the numbers. And I don’t care about the numbers. I care about the people who are harmed, the individuals who are harmed.

JOE ROGAN: Can I stop you there?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, please.

JOE ROGAN: What they generally do is they will say it saves more lives than it costs. And that what happens is on a few very rare cases, very rare individuals, there’s some sort of a reaction and those people die from that medication. But this is normal for any kind of medication that is mass prescribed. This is what they were used as an argument.

And they would say that far more people like COVID vaccine were helped or measles, mumps and rubella, whatever it is, were helped by that, then were hurt.

Assessing Vaccine Risk and Benefit

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. So if you’re really going to assess a product, no parent would let a stranger walk up to their baby on the street and inject them with something they don’t know what’s in it. Right. And yet millions of parents do that every year in America by going to Long’s or to Walgreens and getting a vaccine. They don’t know what’s in it and they don’t know about that 23-year-old pharmacist assistant who’s measuring it out and giving it to you. And they don’t ask questions like, did your baby have an adverse reaction to this a week ago? Or what have you.

But I want to go right to your question, which is the assessment that we would have to do for anything. Forget vaccines, for any kind of drug. What’s the likelihood of getting, in the case of vaccines, you have to say what’s the likelihood of getting the disease? What’s the likelihood of having a terrible consequence from the disease? And does the vaccine work and does the vaccine have any harm for anybody?

Well, I just want to talk about a couple of these. Tetanus vaccine. In the United States, the number of people who died from tetanus in a decade is 13. Thirteen human beings, all old. By the way, the number of people who got tetanus in a decade, 154.

My point on tetanus is that all over the world, there’s a map in this book, all over the world, the tetanus. How do you get tetanus? First of all, it’s not transmissible, as you may know. Everybody thinks you get it from a deep puncture wound with a rusty nail or what have you. Rust does not give you tetanus. It is a bacteria called the tetanus bacteria. And you’ve got to find it first of all. And take an army to find it.

In the United States, by the way, you almost, you know, you won’t find a doctor who’s ever had a patient with tetanus in the United States. All over the world it is fewer than one in a million people. In the United States, in all of Central America and South America, all 22 countries, you can’t find it. Fewer than 1 in 100,000 people getting tetanus. I’m not talking about death. In Russia, one death in 2022. In all of Europe, few deaths. But in the Congo, a lot.

So this is one of those things that you have to ask, what’s the likelihood of risk? And you have to say, does it work? And does it work without any side effects?

Well, here’s the reality. If I get a serious injury, deep puncture wound, right, and I go to the hospital, they clean it and I’m done. Right there. Cleaning it is the end of it. But let’s say they fail to clean it. Well, they always offer you a tetanus vaccine anyway, right there. Even if you had one a year ago, there’s never a circumstance where they don’t try to get you to take a tetanus vaccine.

So tetanus is the beautiful vaccine you can take at the time of the injury. You don’t have to take it prophylactically. Five injections to little babies, little babies. You don’t have to do that.

The Polio Question

So each one of these vaccines, each one of these is a different product. And so polio, by the way, as I head down the polio rabbit hole for a second, I want to say it is another one of these sacred cows, right? Because everybody says you don’t want polio coming back.

But here’s the reality of polio, right from the CDC website. 99% of people who get polio never have any symptoms.

JOE ROGAN: I know, that’s crazy.

GAVIN DE BECKER: The typical symptom, you had Humphreys on, so you know some of that, the typical symptom is having cold for a week, having sniffles. Number of deaths in the world, planet Earth, 8 billion people. Number of deaths last year from polio. You want to guess?

JOE ROGAN: 30,000.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Number of polio cases of the real terrible outcome, which is paralysis, which is the only bad outcome, 500 on the planet Earth, half of whom recovered. You can recover from it on top of everything else.

So you have 99% won’t have any symptoms. Of the 1%, 1% of them will have poliomyelitis, which is the paralysis. And of the 500 I just told you about, 564 in 2022, 97% of them were vaccine-induced poliomyelitis. Meaning they were the strain from the vaccine.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. That’s an inconvenient truth.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s an inconvenient truth. Right from the CDC website.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. When you tell people that, they go, wait a minute, what are you saying? Yeah, the vaccine is giving people polio. And you know, Alex Jones of all people told us that on the podcast a long time ago that they had to stop giving it to children in the Congo because they were getting polio from the vaccine.

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’s the only place they were getting polio.

JOE ROGAN: They pulled up an AP article and we’re watching this AP article where it shows us oral, their oral administration of polio to these little children. And it turns out a bunch of them got polio from it. It’s something like of all the cases of polio, I believe it’s 94% of cases are vaccine-induced polio.

GAVIN DE BECKER: 97%.

JOE ROGAN: 97, yeah.

Verifying the Data

GAVIN DE BECKER: And by the way, even people, people hearing my voice right now and yours, who can go to the CDC website or who can look this up in this book, by the way, I just find a random page here, but all the pages have, I don’t know, where’s the camera, all have QR codes. Right. Everything I assert in this book takes you to the original source material. So you can decide whether you don’t have to trust me on anything.

But on polio, people just won’t let it in their head. Right? And the reality of it is that it is very unlikely for your kid to get polio.

And let’s look at mumps, by the way. So mumps. You’ll find a CBS story online that shows that they say most mumps cases are in vaccinated children. Then you dig a little deeper. What does most mean? 94%.

So now you’ve got a vaccine that doesn’t stop mumps. I mean, would you take any other product where they say, you know, this will help you to whatever your sickness is, 94% of the time it won’t, but you might be one of that lucky 6%.

The point is that I think, I believe as a parent myself that parents have to look at each product individually and decide how likely is it my kid is going to get this thing and what are the consequences of trying it.

The COVID Vaccine Equation

With COVID it’s so easy. With the COVID vaccine, your child stands zero benefit and just might die. Right. And so that’s the easiest equation in history. Like I’m not willing to have an easier case of COVID for my 14-year-old and maybe, even though I’m admitting it’s very remote, and I mean very remote, but maybe have the kid die or have the kid have myocarditis and die in five years from it.

I mean, the number of athletes that drop dead in play during games, I’m talking about high school athletes, is higher than it has ever been in the world. And they say, oh, no, it always happened. Well, I studied that in my last book and it didn’t always happen. It happened 26 times a year over 32 years.

Do you know that during COVID and after the vaccination, 2021, 2022 and 2023, we didn’t have a single month that was 26 cases of sudden death of a young person. And so, you know, how many were there? Well, I’ve got 550 just in that book, Cause Unknown. And that’s just looking. They’re hard to find because you only can find them in local newspapers because the national papers wouldn’t report it.

And there are some cases that were kind of obvious, like Justin Bieber getting the paralysis on his face and his young, healthy wife getting a brain bleed. So there were some that weren’t hideable, but those people didn’t come out and say, oh, that was related to the vaccine, or I took the vaccine. I don’t know Justin, by the way, at all. But I know people going to his concerts were required to take it. So I don’t know the answer.

But what we do know is that the 500 real cases, all with citations, 550 that I put in the book, Cause Unknown, that Ed Dowd did, he was the, he did the statistical work on it. We have a citation for every single one of them. And they’re all, it’s only people under 45. And you know what people under 45 usually don’t do? Drop dead. Right? Healthy. And particularly children. Children and athletes.

Expert Opposition to mRNA Vaccines

And so with the COVID vaccine, mRNA vaccine, when you’ve got the actual, you know, original developer of the technology, Robert Malone, dead set opposed to it. When you’ve got Luc Montagnier, who won the Nobel Prize for discovering HIV, dead set opposed to it, spending the last few months of his life touring around unhealthy, saying, do not give this to your children.

Then over here you’ve got these authoritative sources, and the authoritative sources tend to carry the day. If people are, and I don’t mean it to be too mean, but I want people to hear it, if they’re lazy. Because if you’re a parent, vaccine is not a single product. It’s not a brand. It’s a whole bunch of different things that each have different risk profiles and each have different benefits.

Take polio. There’s six different polio vaccines on the market. Are they all the same? Of course not. They have diff, you’ve got to choose, right? Or you go to the pediatrician and the pediatrician tries to give you your MMR vaccine.

The Mercury Problem

Or the flu vaccine is a better example. Flu vaccines still had mercury in them until Bobby Kennedy, and they lied and said they took it out in 2001. Of all childhood vaccines on the same page, it says, except for some flu vaccines. So there were six flu vaccines, and their defense was, oh, well, parents can choose if they want it with mercury or without mercury.

This is like comedy. The pediatrician doesn’t ask you whether you want it with mercury or without mercury. And what parent would say, oh, I’ll tell you, give me the one with mercury. I’ll take that one. I mean mercury, for God’s sake.

JOE ROGAN: I think it’s important to point out about when you’re talking about polio that it’s also the widespread use of DDT.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. You mean causes. Oh, of course.

JOE ROGAN: This is, this is a big one.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And not polio, by the way. It might just be Guillain-Barré syndrome and other forms of paralysis even. Sorry to interrupt, but even President Roosevelt probably didn’t have polio, and yet he’s the poster child for polio. There was no polio test, and he got it in adulthood, which is not normal for polio. He was paralyzed. That’s true.

JOE ROGAN: And this DDT use, it didn’t just give human beings polio. It was giving farm animals polio. Dogs, cows, horses. And they don’t get it. They don’t get polio. They don’t get the polio that we get. So it’s not that it cross species. That’s not what happened. It’s most likely that people were getting DDT poisoned because they were spraying it everywhere back then.

Mercury and Neurological Injury

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And by the way, also starting in the 40s, using mercury everywhere, the very earliest autism cases were called Kanner syndrome because of a doctor who discovered eight patients who all had, he took care of a lot of kids and he found this new syndrome that he was seeing about their behavior. They had lost their ability to speak. They had all kinds of problems. And in almost every case, the father was working with mercury or mercury was being used in agriculture.

At that time, mercury was like this, you know, this wonder product because it’s effing effective, that’s for sure. It does s*. And so it was in a lot of things. So mercury is part of a lot of neurological injuries and it’s, you know, go on ChatGPT and say, should I breathe mercury fumes? No. Should I eat it? Touch it? No, no, no. Should I inject it? Pause, pause, pause. Well, in childhood vaccines, I mean, it’s just ridiculous.

I got a quick, quick one I want to tell you. So I’m going to get a lot of s*, obviously, for this. And what’s the main criticism you and I are both going to get? I’m not a doctor, I’m not a scientist, as I mentioned, I’m a criminologist and I speak English and I read very well. And so in this book, I put together the information that anybody can get and put all the citations there.

The Marketing Ruse

But what parents often don’t know is that this brand, vaccine, vaccine good, disease bad, there’s a ruse in there, there’s a marketing ruse, which is that if you don’t get the vaccine, you’re going to get that disease. It is absolutely impossible for your kid to get all of those diseases or be exposed to all of those diseases.

And what Humphreys didn’t talk about with you, but she knows, is that all of the childhood vaccine diseases, all of them, the survival rate for a healthy American child is 100%.

JOE ROGAN: All of them, yeah. That’s inconvenient.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right.

JOE ROGAN: The measles.

Measles Death Rates and Vaccine Safety

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, let me do measles real quick because for 22 years, we didn’t have a single measles death in the United States for 22 years. And this is really interesting math. I hope people will take this one on board.

The death rate for vaccinated children with measles is zero. And the death rate for unvaccinated children, of which there are 9 million in America, zero. Meaning the unvaccinated and the vaccinated both have the same death rate. Zero.

JOE ROGAN: But people have died from measles.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yes, people have died from measles, but all of these diseases, the death rates that are the scariest are old death rates. First of all, measles was in descent anyway up until, as it headed into the 80s, it was already going from up here to down here on the graph.

JOE ROGAN: Why is that?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Indoor plumbing, better nutrition. The same thing that helped with almost every disease here in Texas. Texas announces second death, but this is 2024. What I said was in the 22 years before that, there had not been a death.

JOE ROGAN: So what’s causing these kids to die?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, I don’t know if you’ve had Pierre Cory on or other people, and I’m not. This would be a medical question about whether these kids actually died of measles or died of poor medical care. Died measles, yeah, died with measles, et cetera.

JOE ROGAN: Do you have other comorbidities?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, they had bad treatment. It’s a question for somebody like Pierre Cory. I’m going to back away from the question, by the way. Let’s own it. Let’s say, oh, they died of measles. If that’s true, then in 24 years, two kids died of measles.

Do you know what the death rate is for kids from tetanus, for example? The risk is that 1 in every 154 million Americans children will die from tetanus. And if you want to make those odds better with a vaccine, more power to you. But 1 in 154 million is pretty damn good.

JOE ROGAN: And then again, very important. What you said, that it can be taken, the vaccine can be taken once you have contracted tetanus.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, no, once you’ve got the injury, you don’t have to wait if you’ve got the injury. But you know there’s a ruse here, which is that deep puncture wounds does not mean tetanus.

JOE ROGAN: Right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right. You got to search for it. And as you’ll see in this book, the chart that shows the prevalence of tetanus in the world is an interesting one.

But I want to just quickly talk about this because I’m ready for the shit that I’m not a doctor and I shouldn’t be saying any of this. My view is, not only should I be saying it, but I should be doing exactly what I’ve done for my whole career, which is investigating matters and telling the truth.

And I’m not even, by the way, an anti-vaxxer. I think there’s one vaccine I think is a great product, by the way, the BCG vaccine, which is for tuberculosis. It is used in almost every country on Earth. It’s 100 years old and it has other health benefits. It helps with other respiratory problems and it helps with bladder cancer. It has all kinds of benefits. Guess what country it’s not used in?

JOE ROGAN: The United States of America.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s a good guess, Joe. The United States of America. And why? Because the…

JOE ROGAN: Can I guess?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, please.

JOE ROGAN: The patents run out.

GAVIN DE BECKER: It might be another reason. By the way, you might be on something. No, they would say, well, there isn’t that much tuberculosis, but there’s 9,000 cases a year versus tetanus, versus tetanus with, you know, 13 cases every 10 years.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t think most people know that tetanus is a bacteria?

Parental Rights and Joint Decision Making

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s not transmissible. And many vaccines don’t stop transmission anyway, by the way. I’m not saying they all don’t work. I’m just saying you have to make a decision.

Like, imagine this. Some parents don’t want their kids to play football because they might have a head injury, right? But if the government mandated that you play football, we’d all be pretty pissed off.

Parents decide whether their kids can take the bike out after sundown, whether they can sleep over at somebody’s house. They make all these decisions about safety, but they give over this vaccine decision as if it’s not their business.

And, you know, something that Bobby Kennedy is pushing for and I think will accomplish is called joint decision making. And that is that the parent and the pediatrician will decide together on whether or not vaccines, when to give them, how many, which type, et cetera. Guess who opposes that? The pediatricians.

JOE ROGAN: Is that because of financial incentives?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Holy shit. Yes. When I was a kid, I went to the pediatrician. Well, first of all, I went to the doctor once. I broke my foot.

If you didn’t have vaccines and Bobby’s wellness checks and little Jamie’s wellness checks that are necessary that, you know, they bring you in to get the vaccines, pediatricians would have to have second jobs because most kids, particularly when they’re younger and they’re not yet affected by all the environmental toxins, most kids are pretty healthy. Obviously that’s less true today than it was when I was a kid.

But I want to share something that I’m itching to get out because most people just don’t know much about vaccines. And there’s information that’s all available through CDC and FDA, et cetera, that I want to share if you give me permission.

The History and Ingredients of Vaccines

Okay, so how does it start? Vaccine, it means, you know, it started from the word cow vodka. It meant cow. So they would take pus. Cow pus, you don’t want to waste that stuff. And they would rub that into wounds on people.

And then they decided, oh, maybe we can put horse pus and cow pus from an infected horse’s hoof. We’ll rub that in. And they tried that. And for a long time they were experimenting with all these things.

Some old timey vaccines were made by, I’m going to read it. So I get it right. Steeping them for years in a mix of ox bile and glycerin and potato slices. Sounds like a joke, right? But it’s true.

But science moved on and it evolved to where vaccines included dried rabbit spinal cords, duck embryos, chicken blood, human bile, because you don’t want to waste that ground up rat spleens and boiled pig skin. So that’s old time vaccines before we knew anything about anything.

So let’s switch to the modern day vaccines because obviously now we’re real smart and we know a lot of stuff. Well, here is what’s in your childhood vaccines right now. Gelatin from boiled pig skin, kind of like the old one. Chicken embryo protein, blood from the hearts of cow fetuses, DNA fragments from human fetuses, oil extracted from shark livers I mentioned earlier, proteins from worm ovaries, because you don’t want to leave that out. And of course, DNA fragments from monkey kidneys.

Now if that doesn’t sound like a Shakespeare play, you know that eye of newt, toe of frog, lizard’s leg, tongue of dog. When I hear that thing from Macbeth, I literally can’t you just picture Gates and Offit and Hotez sitting around in their witches brew putting this stuff together?

I know I’m talking fast. I’m almost done. The other modern ingredients in childhood vaccines, this is what you are giving if you trust the vaccine manufacturers. Formaldehyde, we already know that’s bad. Polysorbate 80, which is linked to infertility.

And my absolute favorite, potassium chloride. Why is this my favorite? Because that is the chemical that is injected as the third injection in lethal injections by executioners. Now admittedly infants get far less of it than people who are executing, but we really want to be injecting any amount of that into human beings.

Sodium borate, Triton X, that’s what’s in spermicides and of course until very recently ethylmercury.

JOE ROGAN: And what is the reason why they have so many different ingredients?

GAVIN DE BECKER: So I got it in this, I got it in this book holding up shameless plug. I got it in this book because it’s too long for now. But they have, you can get it from ChatGPT. They have what I would have to call a kind of insane reason for each of these.

I mean they’re nuts. And people say, well, I’m not a scientist. You don’t realize how very important each one of those ingredients is. Well, I do realize something and I don’t have to be a scientist. I don’t want mercury injected into my kids, period.

If a, when I was a kid, if a light fell and broke on the floor, you had to call a hazmat team to get rid of it because it had mercury. You can’t touch it, you can’t breathe it, you can’t eat it, but you can inject it into babies. It’s actually crazy.

And you know vaccinologists, there’s a degree of mad science here, there’s a degree of craziness. And again, I’m still not anti-vax. That’s not the point. The point is learn which products you think matter because they’re not all the same.

JOE ROGAN: And what are they saying is the reason why they have all these different ingredients like monkey kidneys and…

SV40 and Mercury in Vaccines

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, some of them are. I mean it’s not. The one that’s not funny of course is SV40 because simian virus 40, most people don’t know, was in the first polio vaccine which was recalled. And then it was in the second polio vaccine which was put out to replace the one that had simian virus 40. It was in that and it’s in the Pfizer COVID vaccine, SV40 fragments.

JOE ROGAN: And if you could explain how that happened.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, they will claim that they were, that to grow the pathogen needs to be in some kind of organic material and that monkey kidneys is a good way to do it. So simian virus 40 accidentally, they claim, accidentally got into it.

Let me tell you what they claim for mercury because it’s a good story too. They say that it’s a preservative and that they needed it for multi-dose vials of the flu vaccine. Not legal in the UK, not in Denmark, not in Sweden, not in Switzerland, but for some reason in the United States it’s okay. Until Bobby Kennedy took it out.

I mean that committee, that Robert Malone is on, the ACIP committee that decides on childhood vaccines. So why is this stuff in there? Well, two reasons. One is that once they get a vaccine approved, the last thing they want to do is come back to the FDA and start that process all over again to get a better vaccine approved.

JOE ROGAN: Because it’ll cost billions of dollars, because…

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’ll cost a lot. Because now it will, it takes a long time and it won’t get passed. Right now the ACIP committee, I mean it’s happening right now. There’s a new Moderna vaccine and the ACIP committee is saying to FDA, give me all the information on this vaccine before we approve it.

And there is no safety, no viable safety information on these vaccines, particularly the childhood vaccines. There never was, as you learned from Turtles All the Way Down, never a viable study on these. And the studies they did would be some of them for five days, some of them for 14 days. And I’m interested in going a little longer than that when it comes to my kids, meaning to know whether they had adverse reactions.

The Lack of Comparative Studies

JOE ROGAN: Well, they would always quote. They’d always say that there have been numerous studies, and these studies are published. And then when RFK pushed them on this and forced them to reveal the fact that, no, there weren’t any studies that showed it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And there were. No. They had never done a study. There are now three, but not done by the government. Of comparing vaccinated kids to unvaccinated kids for all health outcomes.

If you give a kid a measles vaccine, it’ll stop them from getting measles for many years. It works. But does it also have other adverse effects? So the three studies have been done and many, many more problems among vaccinated kids unrelated to the disease. Therefore, I’m talking about asthma and ADHD and neurological problems and visits to the pediatrician.

It’s the easiest study in the world to do because you go to a big company like Kaiser, they got the kid. They know he went in for a vaccine or didn’t, and they know how many visits he had to the pediatrician. And so they can look very easily at it. It’s not a hard project to do.

And that’s what Bobby and Adele Bigtree both went to get done by CDC and NIH. And that’s the meeting where Fauci said, oh, yeah, I have that study. And he did this looking through a file box. Oh, oh, I can’t find it. I’ll send it to you.

And then they had to sue to get it. And right before showing up in court, they get the letter, oh, there is no such study. Yeah. Lying. I can’t say the phrase. Lying bastards. I can say that one, right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, you can say whatever you want.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Motherf*ers.

JOE ROGAN: There you go.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Thank you. That’s right.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. And not just a lying motherf, but a lying motherf with a pardon. It goes back to 2014.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And why would it.

JOE ROGAN: Why would you even do that? Why would you give a doctor who saved millions of lives from the pandemic, why would you give him a pardon.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That goes back to 2014?

JOE ROGAN: Seems insane. It seems insane that you would even need something like that.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I’ll add one more ingredient. He wasn’t charged with anything. Right. So pardons are typically for people who are charged with something, not for people who might be. So it’s, you know, by the way, you’ll have to tell. I know I’m talking fast and you’ll have to tell me how we’re doing on time.

JOE ROGAN: We’re doing great.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Okay, thanks. In this, a lot of this stuff is dark and I’m like anybody else. I’m subject to getting bummed out by like, holy shit, this stuff goes on. And I’m getting a little better because if I accept that it’s true, I stop being shocked and I stop being vulnerable to the impact of it. What are you doing on that subject? How do you deal with it? Humor is a good answer, by the way.

Dealing with Corruption Through Humor

JOE ROGAN: Humor is probably the number one. Yeah. I give myself lots of other things to do and I think about other things. You know, I just try not to dwell on it too much. But yeah, you can get really bummed out. You can get bummed out by the depth of the corruption. And how many people who are intelligent, people who think they’re doing the right thing have become ministers of propaganda, whether they realize it or not, and how easy it is to dismiss anybody who asks questions about these very questionable things.

Yeah, it’s very disturbing and it alienates a lot of people. There’s a lot of people that I can’t talk to about certain subjects because they’ll just spout out some propaganda and some nonsense. And I have to go, that’s not true. And it’s provably not true. I could show you in five minutes that that’s not true.

You know how many people I freaked the f* out when I told them that 99% of polio is asymptomatic. And I go, I’m going to show you right now. We’ll just put it in Google. And then I just show it to them. Yeah, like, how crazy is that? That’s crazy. And then you get a little of them opening their eyes, but then they go right back into the trance.

For the most part, most people go right back into the trance because it’s too difficult to admit that this entire system is insanely corrupt. And it all functions by money and incentives. And they are more than willing to not just give people bad health outcomes, but sacrifice human lives that would not have died because of profit.

And they do that in a huge number of humans. There’s a huge number of humans that will die this year because someone has decided that telling the truth is inconvenient, because it stops them from making a profit. And so they will lie and they will prescribe things that don’t need to be prescribed because there’s incentives.

And there will be all sorts of, besides death, all sorts of horrific health outcomes that could have been completely avoided and then completely ignore any study, like the Henry Ford study or any of these other studies that show that. Like, when they study the Amish, when they find out the only Amish that turned out to have autism are the ones that were adopted.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And vaccinated. I actually think there is only one case like that. Yeah. And so the Amish have, I don’t remember the numbers, but it’s like 70,000 times less autism when you do all the math.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. What the hell is that? And how is that not freaking people out? Like, how many people will just bury their head in the sand and say, vaccines do not cause autism? This has been debunked.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, debunked.

The Courage to Question

JOE ROGAN: You know, I follow Peter Hotez on Twitter, and they’ll just spout it out and then go about their life. They’ll put their blinders on, fasten them securely to the side of their head, and plow forward. That’s the majority of people, because there’s a reality about human beings. Most people are cowards because they haven’t had to not be a coward. They haven’t had to test themselves against something terrifying.

And so most people, when they encounter something that’s scary, they fold. Most people. That’s why we admire people that don’t. That’s why I see professional fighters. Like, oh, my God, the courage that you have to have to do. That’s why you look at Navy SEALs that way. The courage you have to have to sign up for that when it’s terrifying for people.

So most people, when they encounter any pushback, any social ostracization, because you’re part of that kooky group of people that wants to question medical science, they don’t want that. They don’t want to not be invited to the cocktail parties. They don’t want to get the side eye at the gym from people. They don’t want that.

You know, I got to see it during the COVID even with my children, because they weren’t vaccinated. And their friends were saying, why aren’t you vaccinated?

GAVIN DE BECKER: I thought you loved your kids.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, exactly. Well, they are vaccinated for everything else. But I would, you know, my skepticism on COVID came in waves. Initially, I had zero.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Me, too.

Joe’s COVID Vaccine Experience

JOE ROGAN: Initially, I was, I almost took it. The UFC allocated 150 vaccines for all of their employees. I’m one of their employees. I showed up, I called the doctor, I said, can I get it today? And they were going to set it up, but then they said, no, actually, we have to give it to you at the clinic. Can you go there on Monday? I said, I can’t, but I’ll be back in two weeks.

In that two week time, they pulled it from the market. It was a Johnson and Johnson. And then two people that I knew had strokes that took the vaccine in a two week time. And I’m like, whoa. So then I hit the brake. And then when they offered it again, I was like, no, I think I’m good.

Then my family got it, and then I didn’t get it. And I was like, I thought everybody gets it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: You mean got COVID?

JOE ROGAN: Yes, I mean, everybody got it. I hugged my kids, I had sex with my wife. I tried to get it, I didn’t get it. I was like this. She’s like, you’re going to get it. I’m like, I’m not getting nothing. And I didn’t get it. I had two days where I felt crappy. Not crappy bad, but when I worked out, I didn’t feel strong.

So what I did was I just worked out with lighter weights. I did 35 pound kettlebells. And I just went through a very easy routine where I just got my blood flowing. And then I said, let’s see what I feel like the next day. It was like I was running a science experiment on myself. But I was also going crazy because everybody was locked down and need some.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, this is go. This is live TV, folks.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. So then I realized, okay, well, you can contact it and be in contact with someone who’s positive and not catch it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right?

JOE ROGAN: Okay, so what is this? And then Jamie got it and Tony got it. A bunch of our friends got it, and they were fine, and my family was fine. My kids got through it like that. That was the nutty thing. One of them had a little bit of a headache and she came home from school and then she tested positive and she was sick for a day, maybe two days with no medication, nothing.

And then the other one had it for maybe four days. She wasn’t feeling so good. And my wife got it a little worse. She got it. She got it for about a week. She didn’t feel good for about a week. But it was never scary. It was always like, God, I feel so bad. Is there anything I can get you? Do you want this? Do you want that?

But one of the things that we did was IV vitamins. Not for the kids, but certainly for me when I got it. And I tell that to everybody. When you get sick, if you get sick, get IV, high dose vitamin C, get zinc, get vitamin B. You will feel so much better. And if you can tolerate it, get NAD. I know a lot of people, NAD bugs them. It freaks them out. It doesn’t feel good.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Get in the sun.

JOE ROGAN: Get in the sun. Yeah, that’s true too.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Which they told us to stay out of the sun for all of COVID.

JOE ROGAN: If you have access to red light therapy, that’s great as well.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, I think you’re a conspiracy theorist.

Social Ostracization During COVID

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, well, I clearly became one. But I mean, the social, the ostracizing of people that have different perspectives was a real thing. And I felt it. And I didn’t just feel it from people that I knew, which I did. I felt it from f*ing CNN, you know, I felt it from the White House. Yeah, I saw and I felt it through. But it was kind of cool because it was lies. It was like, oh, you changed the color of my face.

GAVIN DE BECKER: This is.

JOE ROGAN: You think you’re going to get away with this? Like, how stupid are you? You don’t think people are going to notice there’s a giant difference between my Instagram video where I’m in my backyard just talking normal, and then you make me look jaundiced.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And there was also the Rolling Stone thing where they showed the people that were waiting in line at the emergency room because so many people were having horse dewormer. Yeah. With gunshot wounds. They were waiting in line, a long line outside. F*ing Rolling Stone.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I know.

JOE ROGAN: And they were saying people were getting overdose of horse dewormer, which, by the way, no one got an overdose of horse dewormer.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Which, by the way, no one’s taking. You can get Ivermectin online, you fing idiots. And back then you could get it in a pharmacy until they shut that down. Like, why would you shut down the ability to get a very useful medication? Why would you do that? Like, how do you know why this person is getting Ivermectin? What if they have fing malaria? What if they have, you know, yellow fever or something where they’re using Ivermectin, where, by the way, got a Nobel Prize.

Emergency Use Authorization

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. They had a very good reason for shutting it down, which is that if there is a medication that is already approved for any purpose, then you cannot get an emergency use authorization.

JOE ROGAN: Exactly.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And the emergency use authorization was everything. You know that answer you just gave me to my question, which was how do you, how do you do it? Because you’re hearing, you know, as much as I am and more just in this room from people. And that is the very reason I wrote this book, because I wrote it to be able to hand and to let people whose eyes are more open to things hand this to their sister in law or brother in law or boss or friend or neighbor who’s questioning everything.

Because this is designed to carry you through Agent Orange. Nobody, everybody doubts it because it’s now established, carry you through baby powder, now established. And show you each one of these things and then talk about vaccines and then talk about other products and then talk about the other examples in order to inspire now skepticism.

Now, can it work for everybody? Of course not. But I mean for it to be a helpful, persuasive strategy because I’ve been in the, you know, like you been in these conversations, which I now just avoid. Right. Yeah. There’s a particular thing people say that used to piss me off. I let it roll off me now, but it would be, “That’s not what I heard.”

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

GAVIN DE BECKER: As if that means something. And so what I do is, is I never talk with somebody without an open laptop. Right. I’m not going to just hear, “That’s not what I heard.” No, you open a laptop and I’ll show you. Right. And be, and you know.

So in this book, at the beginning of it, it says something like, note to the reader, it says, here’s why the QR codes are there. When you encounter something you don’t think is accurate, cross it out with a big bold red pen. But right next to it, what is accurate? Because without that step, people get to say, “I don’t think so.” Well, then what is it? Right. So I’m adding that step and with all the QR codes, you can decide what’s true, what’s propaganda, and what sources you want to believe.

The Pandemic Response and Scientific Contradictions

JOE ROGAN: Well, it was weird because publicly they were stating things that go absolutely against known and established science and common sense. But when it comes to pandemics, one of them, the big one that has always been said, you do not vaccinate during a pandemic.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, yeah. And the other one, which is the value of natural immunity, which has only been known for throughout medical history, they suddenly said, no, no. Hotez and others would say, no, no, you’re better off to get the immunity from the vaccine that happens to come with these few side effects. I mean, it was…

JOE ROGAN: But it’s also what I was getting at with the don’t vaccinate during a pandemic because you create variants, especially with a leaky vaccine, which clearly the COVID vaccine was. You think they lied to us at first and they said it’s going to stop infections, stop transmission, period. Oh, great. It just works, period. Step in line, let’s do this.

GAVIN DE BECKER: It just works, period.

JOE ROGAN: But it didn’t just work, period. So that automatically would create the possibility for the environment for variants. And then people publicly were saying that the unvaccinated are causing variants.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Which is wild. What a wild twist of reality and decades of research.

Historical Parallels: The Conference at Wannsee

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. The unvaccinated were the Jews in Nazi Germany. We were the worst thing in the world. We were the problem. We were spreading disease.

By the way, since I mentioned that, it’s a good little digression for a second. There’s a book called “Hitler’s Professors” and it is about a process that Hitler administration used. Remember, they’re in power for 12 years before they start killing people with industrial killing. And they would have professors and universities do research projects and published them that said Jews spread disease and then they would say they damaged the economy in these ways.

So using medical science is not new as a way to control populations and as a way to influence. So by the time you get to 1942 and the population is sort of geared up for this degree of antisemitism. I’m not saying there wasn’t antisemitism on its own, but it was exploited and, you know, exposed to radiation in this process.

I want to share two other quick things when I have trouble with these topics and I wonder is, you know, are people dark enough to sit in a room and say, yeah, it causes myocarditis, mostly to young boys, but let’s put it out anyway and let’s just not say anything. I had real trouble with that.

And a dear friend of mine is a novelist, Bruce Wagner. And when I brought this to him and I said, I just cannot get over this hump. I cannot believe that people knowingly do this. Just can’t get there. And I’m not a, you know, I’m a skeptical person, so I want to be able to believe anything. And he said, well, have you read the conference at Wannsee? Have you? Do you know what this is?

JOE ROGAN: No.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And I said, no, I never heard of it. He said, go to Wikipedia and read the conference at Wannsee. Read about that.

And so the conference at Wannsee is a conference in 1942 where Hitler’s top soldiers and intelligence people meet with the civilian government, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Health, Minister of Transportation at this place called Wannsee. And they lay out what’s coming. They lay out the plan for what are we going to do with the Jews.

And these are just, you know, civilian guys who have cars and drivers and they’re sitting in suits and have kids playing in the yard. And they slowly lay it out. And for example, somebody says, then we’re going to move them by train. 400,000 of them. We’re going to move them by train. And the Minister of Transportation says, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don’t have enough seats on the trains. And Hitler’s guy says, we’re not using seats. And it’s slowly beginning to drop. And these guys thinking, what’s up?

So they have this conference for… Somebody transcribes it, and the transcription is leaked, a little bit like happened in my book. I got great leaked transcriptions. And you see these people talking about something that in the beginning, they’re using euphemisms, relocation camps. And then they have a little wine after the meeting is over, and they stop the euphemisms.

And now they’re talking about, well, what is a Jew? What if the mother is Jewish, but the father isn’t? What if he’s a half Jew? What if he’s an adopted? So what do we do with these? What do we do with that?

And these people who walked into the room with no idea what was coming are suddenly participating for all the reasons you mentioned earlier about normal people, right? Got a job. They don’t want to be, you know, excommunicated.

And so the conference at Wannsee is the example that helps me remember that, of course, human beings get in a room together. Every war we do, we make movies about them. They get in a war, they sit around a table like this, and they say, well, we’re going to lose 60,000 troops in the first three weeks, or we’re going to take out this many by this method.

And generals, you know, war generals, they actually… It’s not the perfect wording, but I don’t have better wording. They look forward to the first casualties because the first casualties of our troops is what that invigorates the war movement back home. They stormed into our camp at night like cowards, and they killed our boys. And you have to support our boys in this war.

If you really wanted to support our boys in the war, you’d leave them in Philadelphia. You wouldn’t send them to Iraq. But this is how this works. And there’s no surprise that people sit around a table and think about what’s the best weapon? What’s the best weapon? Methodology. That’s human life. That’s, you know, part of human history.

JOE ROGAN: And they also think, what’s the best way for us to make money? And is it going to cost human lives? We’ll just do it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And what’s the best way for us to control people?

Corporate Malfeasance: The Pharmaceutical Industry’s Criminal Record

JOE ROGAN: Right, but they clearly did that with Vioxx when they found the emails that showed that they knew about the side effects. And then the quote was, “but we think we will do well with this.”

GAVIN DE BECKER: I got something worse for you than that. Really? It’s right.

JOE ROGAN: 60,000 people dead.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I got something worse than that. Good timing. Here’s Pfizer. I’m just going to say, these are the companies we’re trusting to make the vaccine products that we’re injecting into our babies. And a lot of them, including on the first day of life for a disease the baby can’t possibly get because the mother’s tested for hepatitis B. Anyway, anyway, Pfizer.

So they get fined for illegal marketing of products. The company’s forced to pay the largest criminal fine in US history at that time, plus a billion dollars more in a settlement in 2009 for the False Claims Act. And I almost forgot. 240 million in criminal fines and another 190 million in 2004 for false claims to Medicare. And 60 million. And 40 million. And 75 million for fraudulent marketing. 15 million for paying kickbacks to healthcare providers. That’s Pfizer.

Johnson and Johnson, who’s a really trusted company, you know, to some people. They got fined 5 billion for what I already talked about, which is the baby powder. Four billion. I’m sorry. And they had to pay out all kinds of court things, but they got a $5 billion fine from multiple states for its role in the opioid crisis.

And, you know, you can decide if I’m overplaying this because they got deceptive marketing, downplaying the risks and overstating the benefits of their products. False claims made to mislead doctors and patients and regulators. Tricky promotion, et cetera, et cetera, for distributing fentanyl products and failing to adequately warn about the risk of those products. They’re $4.7 billion criminal fine in connection with baby powder. $2.2 billion in penalties for illegal marketing and kickbacks.

Now, I know this is boring, so I’m going to rush through it. GlaxoSmithKline, same thing, all kinds of criminality. GlaxoSmithKline had 700 middlemen who were bribing doctors.

And one of the companies that I talk about in the book, the sales guy comes to the CEO and he says, I got a great idea for our product. Most of the pharma companies are paying doctors to go around and give seminars touting the drug. Right? He said, let’s cut that out. Let’s go right to pay the doctors to write the prescriptions. It was called bribe to prescribe.

We’ll pay the doctor to write the prescriptions, and then he’ll send it to a particular pharmacy, and it’s for drugs the patient doesn’t need. And then we’ll get a kickback from the pharmacy as well. Plus we’ll sell our product. The CEO of that company hears that, he slaps his hand on the table and he says, we just got our new VP of sales. They’ve been convicted, by the way, under the RICO Act.

Merck. Other than Vioxx, which caused perhaps 200,000 deaths in America, they get a $650 million…

JOE ROGAN: Wait a minute. I thought Vioxx was like 50,000 deaths.

GAVIN DE BECKER: No, the many… I mean, you go on, go online and you’ll get a whole different group of numbers. It was…

JOE ROGAN: It had to be more than 200, wasn’t it?

GAVIN DE BECKER: No, I said 200,000.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, you said 200. I thought you were talking about 200 period.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, sorry. I’m sorry.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. I had read 60,000.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Here’s a good one.

JOE ROGAN: Really? 200,000?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, here’s a good one from Merck. And by the way, it could be 600,000 for all we know. You think somebody’s running around trying to… trying to do that number accurately at the CDC or at Merck?

JOE ROGAN: Let’s say the low end, 50,000.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I thought the low end was 100,000. Okay, but it’s bad.

JOE ROGAN: It’s still insane.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Here’s an interesting one from Merck. Also. A bunch of whistleblowers came forward at Merck, and they acknowledged that their flagship product, which is the MMR vaccine, that they tested it against a variant of mumps that doesn’t exist in the wild, and guess what? But the MMR did really good in that test, right? And it came back that it could pass all the requirements to be included. They added rabbit blood to human samples in order to pass that test.

JOE ROGAN: What?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Why did rabbit blood help them pass that test?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Science. Who knows? You know? Now they barely do that.

Eli Lilly. Criminal fines of a half billion, then 800 million in settlements. This is the last one I’ll do for a product called Zyprexa. Right. Now, why were people, why did 32,000 people sue over Zyprexa? Why were they so pissed off?

Was it because Zyprexa caused swelling in the hands and the feet and the arms a little bit that pissed off some people? Was it because it caused problems with swallowing and drooling or the twisting body movements that lots of people reported? Sure, some were pissed off about that. Was it that it caused stroke and heart attack? I’m reading, by the way, probably that explains some of the resentment.

But ultimately what really pissed people off was the big side effect of sudden death. But Eli Lilly made a good decision pushing Zyprexa because even though it cost them 40 billion, I mean, even though it cost them billions in settlements, they made 40 billion in revenues.

JOE ROGAN: That’s the same with Vioxx. Right. They made 12 billion in revenue where they got fined 5.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And the last 31 years that I cover in the book, look, pharma manufacturers paid 62 billion, but they made trillions. And most of them are repeat offenders. So the question is, why in the world do we trust these companies?

JOE ROGAN: It’s a very good question.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I was hoping you could answer.

JOE ROGAN: There’s no answer. I mean, people are lost in the trance.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s what it is.

JOE ROGAN: They want to believe.

The Liability Shield and Its Implications

GAVIN DE BECKER: And the one product, by the way, where they have no liability, you think that’s the one where they suddenly get careful.

JOE ROGAN: Right. That’s what’s hilarious about it. And that people push back against that. How imperative it is that they have liability against being liable.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Liability against whatever damage they do, liability against lies. It’s just crazy that they let them do that because vaccines cannot be both safe and effective. There’s literally what they said when they were pleading for the immunity.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. You know, I forgot to mention earlier because you asked, why are some of these ingredients in the vaccines?

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

The Mercury Debate and Vaccine Adjuvants

GAVIN DE BECKER: So on mercury, they claim that it was a preservative for the multi-dose vial of flu vaccine. But there’s another ingredient you need in a vaccine and that’s called the adjuvant. And that’s what bothers the body. That’s what gets the body to say, I don’t like this, I’m going to mount an immune response.

And I’m quite confident that mercury, just like aluminum, which is still in lots of vaccines, childhood vaccines, that mercury’s purpose in there was that it really pissed off the body and it got the numbers to work for these vaccines. In other words, the immune response. They make so many claims. They claim that it’s such a small amount, it doesn’t matter.

JOE ROGAN: What is the difference between ethylmercury and…

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, that’s their big claim. The big claim is they say that ethylmercury is different from methylmercury, which is in fish. And comparing two kinds of mercury is like saying, would you rather be shot with a .38 or a .45? I mean, I’d rather just not be shot.

But I want to just talk about this methylmercury thing. What they claim in this nonsense that they’re inherently different is that ethylmercury, the one in vaccines, clears through the bloodstream more quickly than methylmercury. And they’re right, it does. That’s been tested in monkeys. And it’s true problem. Where does it end up? In the brain and it collects and it doesn’t clear and it lasts for years. So that part they don’t want to talk about.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And again, somebody’s going to say, who the hell am I?

JOE ROGAN: All this information is available, you can find…

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s right. I don’t mean that. I mean they’re going to say, why am I talking about this? Well, because the f*ing doctors aren’t.

JOE ROGAN: Because doctors can’t. They want to stay being doctors.

Ask Your Doctor

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s true too. And also, people need to know when you call your doctor and you ask for information on this, they just go to the CDC website. They’re not scientists. They’re not conducting, they’re not in a lab coat conducting science.

In this book I have a chapter called “Ask Your Doctor” and it’s Questions to Ask Your Pediatrician In Person. Because if you ask them in email, they’re going to give you an answer they just got offline. But if you ask them in person, what are the ingredients of childhood vaccines, you think there’s a pediatrician out there who can read the list I read to you? You’re not going to find that person.

Because they also bought into the idea that vaccines are a product that’s uniform across the board. Vaccine good, disease bad. And it’s their business, it’s what they do. I’m not blaming…

JOE ROGAN: And they have a license to conduct business and make billions of dollars. And you want them to stop for ethical reasons.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And they’re in a priesthood. And that is what it’s like. They get all their respect and it’s like a religion and the truths that you can’t talk about.

I am now having done your show today, assuming that you air it, I am now officially questioning pharma companies. And the Kissinger report, I don’t know if you heard about that one. That’s another real good one to add to your list of MK Ultra and others. You want that one?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

The Kissinger Report

GAVIN DE BECKER: The Kissinger report. It’ll kick your ass too. It’s unbelievable. 1972 Kissinger report put together by CIA and USAID. It is a report that concludes that the United States official foreign policy, signed into law in 1975 by President Ford, when I say signed into law, it’s called a presidential directive, is the reduction of population in 12 specific foreign countries. Not the control of population, the reduction of population.

And so it explains the ways we’re going to do this is through medicalizing birth control. Never was before. You didn’t need a doctor to get a condom and to go around and talk to villages everywhere and say you want reproductive health freedom, don’t you?

You know what most women want on the planet earth? Babies. They’re not looking for reproductive health freedom was a term for have fewer babies. There is a very potent move in official US foreign policy to reduce population in other countries.

Now why Philippines or Indonesia? Why? They state it directly in the Kissinger report. Because it’s classified. They wanted to reduce those countries’ development so that they wouldn’t need their own raw materials because we want them, the metals, et cetera. It is dark as s* the Kissinger report. And it’s not classified anymore. You can ask ChatGPT about it to give you quotes from it.

And so this whole business of population reduction is now another third rail I’m stepping on. Nobody wants it. What are you, you’re nuts? No, a lot of people want it. A lot of people believe, obviously, including Bill Gates, that 8 billion people was the number where we must turn it around. Which is where we are supposedly now.

And the Kissinger report, I was a kid, I didn’t write it. I didn’t make it up. You can find it on Wikipedia, it’s a real thing. And all the presidential directives that came from it. Would these countries like the idea that we show up and we say hey we’ve got a new tetanus vaccine for you. But it happens to also have in it secretly something that will reduce fertility in your women as we did in India, as we did in Peru. In both India and Peru, we also did forced sterilization surgeries. US paid for them. True story.

JOE ROGAN: So the one vaccine was the DTP vaccine. Is that what it was?

GAVIN DE BECKER: The one I’m talking about…

JOE ROGAN: The one that had HTP in it, it was just tetanus. But there was a vaccine that was in Bobby Kennedy’s book where they were talking about women in Africa where they were unknowingly given this vaccine against, it was diphtheria, tetanus.

The HCG Vaccine Scandal

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, it was the tetanus part that they were pitching. And by the way, tetanus is a challenge in those countries more than it is in the United States. But, yeah, they were calling them wellness drugs.

JOE ROGAN: But they had HCG in it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s correct.

JOE ROGAN: HCG. And they were more administered to women than they were to men.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, of course. And there were five. They would administer five of the injections.

JOE ROGAN: And they did it under this, the guise, the narrative was that women were more vulnerable. So you have to give the vaccination to women.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And it was preventing them from getting pregnant.

GAVIN DE BECKER: It was preventing them from getting pregnant. And they had World Health Organization, which basically has this as a mission. Man, I wish they would sue me for saying this, but they have this as a mission, which is population reduction. From the beginning, they had worked on that HCG.

JOE ROGAN: Well, Gates famously was in a speech saying, we can do that with vaccines.

GAVIN DE BECKER: By the way, in the Kissinger report, for those of you not seeing this and only hearing it, that was me drinking. That pause was me drinking water. I did not have a stroke.

In the Kissinger report, they list the strategies and how much funding they’ll give to each strategy. One of the strategies is to medicalize birth control, meaning have trusted people in the villages, et cetera. Another one is to pay young men to have a vasectomy. Just outright write a check in villages. So they get 60 bucks and they get a nice weekend of buying beer, but they never have kids.

But another one of them is injections that reduce, that temporarily reduce male fertility. Now, here’s an interesting thing about that one. It’s in the Kissinger report. Injections that temporarily reduce male fertility. The COVID vaccine reduces sperm count in men for three months, admitted by Fauci. It’s not a secret, but the CDC’s response was, yeah, but it’s only for three months. And they were asking us to take one every f*ing three months.

JOE ROGAN: Also the miscarriages.

Population Reduction and Global Policy

GAVIN DE BECKER: Miscarriages and stillbirths. My point is that it’s no surprise that these persistent thoughts that I think good people believe. Meaning I think there are good people who believe that population reduction is important.

The fact is, of course, that now we are barely at replacement, at replacement value right now in terms of many populations. Countries like Japan, South Korea, they’re under replacement numbers, meaning they’re not having enough babies. The entire population of the planet Earth could fit in the state of New York. I’m not saying it would be a pleasant place, but I’m just pointing out that the Earth is very big and I’m not persuaded that overpopulation is the issue.

I do think an issue is distribution of food. That’s a big one. Meaning how we distribute the resources we have is affecting a lot of people. But whether I agree or I don’t agree is irrelevant. A lot of people believe in this very strongly.

The woman who founded Planned Parenthood, which I gave and still give money to, the woman who, she was into population reduction. By the way, when I said a minute ago, still give money to it, last almost two years now. I probably, all these things are changing in my head, meaning everything I thought is subject to reevaluation and maybe, maybe that’s how we ought to live, which is to not lock into these positions where we think we know.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I think part of the problem with some poor countries is they don’t have great infrastructure, they don’t have great power grid, they don’t have great manufacturing, they don’t have great government. Well, the only way you’re going to generate wealth is if you have legitimate power, you have reliable power.

Well, what’s the most reliable power that is clean? Well, that’s nuclear. Well, the problem with that is when you give people a nuclear plant, they didn’t know how quick and easy it would be for it to convert to, now they have nuclear weapons. That’s how you get India and Pakistan.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, right.

JOE ROGAN: They both have nuclear weapons. Why do they have nuclear weapons? Because somebody decided to build nuclear power plants there. So you can’t have the whole world have nuclear weapons. It’s pretty nuts how many people have them as it is and how we haven’t used them.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, we have used them, of course, only the United States has used them.

JOE ROGAN: We haven’t used them since, I was going to say since World War II. But this thing, this unsurmountable problem of providing energy and infrastructure, when you hear things like the Kissinger Report where it’s like we want to make sure that they don’t develop to a point where they start using their own materials because we need them. So let’s f* up this entire, whatever the progress was going to be. Let’s halt that.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And do it in the name of showing up like we’re here to help and we’re here to do something wonderful for you.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so dark.

The Institute of Medicine Transcripts

GAVIN DE BECKER: You got time for a funny one? Okay, this won’t be funny, I promise. All right. So in the Institute of Medicine report and study that they did on vaccines and what they called autism and alcohol, brain damage, it’s a closed session. And the very first thing said is this optimistic pronouncement. “The closed session transcripts will never be shared with anybody outside the committee and the staff.”

Well, that turned out to be way wrong because somebody leaked the transcripts, which is why a lot of them are in my book.

JOE ROGAN: How do we know they’re substantiated? How do we know they’re the absolute transcripts?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Oh, the provenance of it. They’ve been now around since, I think 2009 maybe was when there was the beginnings of articles. And nobody’s come and said, like Bobby Kennedy published on them, and nobody came forward and said, wait a minute, I never said that.

And you can see, you can tell they’re real by both what they say and also what they end up with, which is equal to the report they published. But this was meant to be secret.

Now, the second pronouncement they made, this one was dead on accurate. “The point of no return. The line we will not cross in public policy is pull the vaccine, change the schedule. We wouldn’t say compensate the injured, and we wouldn’t say stop the program.”

Then another one says, “CDC wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a population basis, and we are not ever going to come down that autism is a true side effect.”

That is the first hour of their study. That is the first hour when they sit down to answer the question, which is, might mercury or other ingredients be causing autism in any children anywhere?

JOE ROGAN: Read that quote again.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Let’s go back here. “CDC wants us to declare, well, these things are pretty safe on a population basis, and we are not ever going to come down that autism is a true side effect.”

JOE ROGAN: The CDC asked for…

The CDC’s Autism Study: A Predetermined Outcome

GAVIN DE BECKER: The CDC paid for the probe, but—

JOE ROGAN: They specifically were requesting a result.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, and everybody kind of knows it. You know, one of the doctors asks, are we going to look at mercury? And the answer comes back fast, saying, not this round. Now, this is the first study that the US Government is doing, supposedly to find out what causes autism, but what they’re actually doing is finding out what doesn’t cause autism, right? Which is they already know is going to be vaccines.

And one of the doctors says, wait a second, not this round. If we’re going to look at autism, can we really fundamentally look at it in isolation, in the real world? They, meaning the injections, don’t occur in isolation. Individuals that got the MMR vaccine also received the vaccines with mercury. So that’s a very good point he’s making.

What happens to his point? Immediately, a guy named Dr. Berg interrupts. And this is where I think it’s funny, I’ll try and do it without cracking up. But this is what Dr. Berg says. He says, “I don’t know how long it will take for us to figure out what the question really is. I’m a veteran of one panel that took six days for a group about this size to figure out what the question was. It can be a formidable issue. I don’t know what the question is, whether it is MMR or whether it is measles vaccine.”

And somebody tries to answer him and he says, “Excuse me, we’re going to have to have a method for how we focus the question. This is one of the questions we need to focus on. How are we going to form the question? What process are we going to use to form the question? The issue of specifying the question is a very important step. I would like to know how this panel is going to specify the question.”

In other words, this guy is a f*ing chucklehead, and this is what he’s obsessed with and talking about.

And the next guy, Dr. Goodman, he talks all through the thing and he’s impossible to understand. Literally impossible to understand. Here’s his quote: “In the end, the bottom line is the only verdict that matters or is of importance is whether we say a causal relationship between vaccines and autism is likely or suggested or unlikely or inadequate. That is the only metric. As soon as we start introducing any other words that sort of sidestep to causality. But we’re not going to say causality. I think we would introduce confusion.”

Now, I read that 30 times writing this book. I don’t understand what the f* he’s saying. That’s all they do is introduce confusion. And they sit there for day after day after day talking, not about science, they’re scientific experts talking about words.

JOE ROGAN: How do they focus, what kind of Adderall these guys on when they’re having these conferences? I mean, I can’t even imagine staying awake during listening to that guy say—

Subdividing Categories and Bureaucratic Nonsense

GAVIN DE BECKER: They barely, by the way, they barely do stay awake because one of them says, “If we want to subdivide, subdivide the categories”—and boy, did they ever want to subdivide—”then I think we have to use. There seems to be a strong association which we can’t explain, or we don’t have any other explanation for it, or however, we don’t want to make a causal claim because we know from many observational studies, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

He actually says, “blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” That’s what they know from observational studies. And we shouldn’t put it in the sufficient category because that will—their fear was that people would be afraid to take vaccines, right?

Now you asked how they stay awake. They don’t. They quit early and they take a massive break from all the subdividing and language prose bullshit they’re doing. And they go away for a few months and then they come back and one guy says, you know what we should say? We should say maybe if it happens, meaning autism or brain damage, it happens maybe once in a thousand times, maybe once in 10,000 times, maybe once in a million.

In other words, without a calculator, this guy just went from a rate a thousand times different—one in a thousand to one in a million. He’s such a genius that he can accomplish that. I mean, it is an embarrassment. There’s one guy, there’s one point that’s—

JOE ROGAN: That’s crazy that that’s the numbers he was throwing around. Let’s just give them a narrative, give them a voice of authority that tells them it’s very rare, don’t worry about it, and then we’re good.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And it’s not a bad idea. Of course it’s deceitful, but it’s not a bad idea. At one point, by the way, one of the guys, Dr. Johnston, he says, oh, this is a good one too. Dr. Stado, he says, “Let’s take the top category from Vaccines, the second category from Agent Orange, and then in between, let’s put the top from Agent Orange and the second from Vaccines.” Voila. And they’ve solved their problem.

But one guy says, it’s like he’s reciting Hamlet. He solves the problem. He says, “This is what we’re going to say. We’re going to say our information is inadequate to accept or reject that is a statement.” And then they work on that statement for a while.

And there’s this woman named Barbara Lowe Fischer, who offered them a lot of information that they rejected. They turned it down. And here’s what they say about her in the meeting. They say, “All we are going to get from her is a list of hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of kids who were developing normally, but they got their MMR vaccine, and then they started to regress.”

In other words, all we’re going to get is exactly what we’re being paid to sit here and do. That’s what America was asking them to do.

And so all these—I’ll just do one more. There’s a guy, Dr. Goodman, and he says to the group, “I’ve got something big.” He says, “It’s not. It’s still sort of rough, but”—and then he rolls out this big invention of his. “I call it the three category system that is high, intermediate and inadequate, with the other two categories being no evidence at all or favors acceptance.”

And he says, “What we’re looking for is an argument that is embedded inside the rhetoric. An argument that might be of some value to parse out and take pieces of and make sure that we address it in its pieces.”

That’s like a f*ing Scrabble set that turned upside down. Doesn’t make any sense. But I’m not a scientist, so I shouldn’t be able to opine on it. But that’s why—

JOE ROGAN: But it’s clear what they’re doing is trying to make that water as muddy as possible.

The Final Report: Case Closed, No Further Study Needed

GAVIN DE BECKER: Mmm. Then they come out with their report, and not only do they come out with their report saying that there’s no link between any vaccine and any autism in any child. Not only that, but they say it should not be further studied. These guys who will do study after study after study for years because they’re getting paid for it. On this one, they decide no more studies.

I mean, it’s quite remarkable. And that is the thing that allows everybody to say to you and to me and to Bobby Kennedy, “Oh, that’s debunked.” That’s how it happened. That’s the debunking. And what I’m trying to do is show how the sausage is made in these debunking campaigns. And it’s not pretty. Sorry, say something optimistic.

JOE ROGAN: There’s nothing optimistic after that, but it’s just until those kind of people are no longer able to do those kind of things, we’re going to continue to have new versions of this problem, and there’s going to be new things that come up that freak everybody out.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, of course. And you know, you asked at the very beginning, did I think that some of these things were intentional, or were they simply exploiting the opportunities that came? I now believe that very few things are purely organic events. That’s what I believe.

In other words, any giant social movement like Covid is a giant social movement. I’m not talking about the virus. I’m talking about the response. This is not accidental. This is not people, “Oh, we thought this, and we tried that, and we were just doing our best to figure stuff out.” That’s now impossible. That theory.

JOE ROGAN: Do you think that the virus was released intentionally?

Bioweapons Research and Historical Precedents

GAVIN DE BECKER: I’m open to the idea. You know, that’s exactly the one, by the way, that I went to my friend Bruce Wagner and I was suffering over. In other words, can people do this kind of stuff? But then you learn that we dropped infected ticks on Cuba, that, you know, that Lyme disease is likely the result of experimentation.

JOE ROGAN: Now, people have pushed back on me about that one recently because I said that on the podcast. Because Lyme disease has existed forever, right? There’s versions of Lyme disease. It’s very ancient. That’s true, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: I don’t know. I don’t know. I only know that—

JOE ROGAN: But there is. The reality is Plum Island, they were doing bioweapons research, and one of the projects was taking ticks, of course, and infecting them with different things so you could drop them off of helicopters, infect a population, and overwhelm their medical system. This is established, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yep, that’s true.

JOE ROGAN: And Lyme Island was right outside. Or Plum Island, rather, was right outside of Lyme, Connecticut.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s all true. And so is it—is it possible it’s a little bit like the big—

JOE ROGAN: It’s also like, why would you defend that?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Defend it in what way?

JOE ROGAN: Why would anybody say, “Oh, Lyme has always been around.” Okay, but it’s never been ubiquitous. It’s never been a disease that infects ticks, and everybody gets it, and the entire population has chronic fatigue syndrome. That’s not normal. That’s new.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. I moved out of New York State. I had a beautiful place there, and I moved because I got Lyme disease and my kids got it, and I just couldn’t. Every time I go for a walk in the forest, have to think about, you know, this tick that’s on you.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, I had a friend get it, and his child got paralyzed. He got face paralysis. The same. The Guillain Barré. Whatever it’s called.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Guillain Barré.

JOE ROGAN: Guillain Barré. I only see it written Guillain Barré. His child got it when the doctor was unwilling to admit that the kid had Lyme disease because the bullseye, the little thing had gone away, which is, you know, the doctor just said, “He’s fine.” And then eventually got to the face paralysis where they started giving him high doses of antibiotics. But my friend, both he and his son, he suffered badly. He lost like 50, 60 pounds. He looked f*ing terrible for a long time.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s quite serious. And, you know, there was a giant outbreak of polio. Certainly the biggest and most important one happened in New York. And there too, the Rockefeller Foundation was working funding gain of function research on polio to make it worse.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, we’ve talked about this.

Gain of Function Research: Mad Science

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. Nowhere on the planet earth had there ever been another outbreak like that. And the reason that polio was fatal to some people is because of the paralysis piece. But as you said, the paralysis may very well be the result of insecticides and other modern pathogens.

And so it’s all, you know, you asked me the big question, do I think it’s intentional? My easiest answer is that I can believe almost anything. I obviously do not know the answer to that question. But I think it’s intentional that they were doing gain of function research against the objection of many people, including President Obama, you know, opposed it. And they offshored it to China.

Many people wrote articles against it. It is quite literally mad scientist insane. Yeah, it’s quite literally insane to say, “Can I make something worse than nature might? Because it might make it one and—”

JOE ROGAN: Not have a f*ing cure for it. Why are you doing that?

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’s never worked. They’ve never done the thing of having—

JOE ROGAN: But that wasn’t the research. The research was making the virus worse. The research wasn’t let’s make a cure for a virus.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, it’s both, because the research was make bioweapons. That means make it worse. But the defense for bioweapons is the dream of Dr. Daszak, who should be in prison. Please sue me, Peter Daszak. Please sue me for saying that I have the resources to address this lawsuit with you.

Anyway, the research he was doing to make bioweapons and to make something worse included—and he made a pitch to the Pentagon on it—included having a vaccine that would make our troops able to walk in immune.

JOE ROGAN: Science fiction, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Science fiction. But it’s very sexy science fiction, because ain’t that the greatest war ever? We make them sick, but we don’t get sick.

JOE ROGAN: But they didn’t have a vaccine. So they had the disease, but they didn’t have a vaccine that was effective for it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: But he wanted to work on it, and he wanted—

The Origins and Timeline of Bioweapons Research

JOE ROGAN: How long were they working on it? I mean, you think about the virus. If 2014 was when they brought back, that’s the date where Fauci is immune. Right. That’s where it goes back to. Right. So that must have been the time where they restarted gain function research. How long were they doing it before that? Like, how long have they been doing it? And they never had a vaccine?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, back to Paperclip. I mean, back to the very beginning. Look, humanity, the history of humanity includes that the greatest funding will always go to weapons. And so scientists became, they weren’t always in the position they’re in, that they’re in American society and Western society today, but they became very important because you could figure out things like nuclear weapons and bioweapons.

And if you have bioweapons that are ethnically targeted, that’ll be a big advancement. And there’s no reason in the world to believe that China, Russia, the United States and other superpowers aren’t working on that.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, boy.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And we are, you know, we would vote against it if there was a referendum. Right? We meaning you and me and maybe Jamie. I can’t tell about Jamie. Okay. Would you, Jamie.

JOE ROGAN: Jamie’s a good guy. Okay.

GAVIN DE BECKER: He’s raising his eyebrows. I don’t know what to think. But anyway, many, I think probably most intelligent people would say, yeah, let’s not do that. Right. And in fact, most intelligent people might say, if we could go back and not have nuclear weapons, let’s, you know, go back to that. That would be a nice thing. Certainly people have tried.

But scientists tend to get their best funding. I mean, look, there’s a bioweapons lab at the University of Boston, a high level one. What the f*? I don’t want my kid going to the University of Boston. Like, what are we doing that for? And it’s, and there’s, they’re all over the world. There were 60 of them in Ukraine, funded by the United States. And we think, we want to wonder why Russia might not like what was going on in Ukraine.

By the way, speaking of Ukraine, I keep asking you if I have time, do I have time to tell the Zelenskyy story?

JOE ROGAN: Sure.

The Zelenskyy Story: From Actor to President

GAVIN DE BECKER: Because it’s another one. It’s just, you know, what is Zelenskyy in America? He’s a hero. He’s a real warrior. He’s got that nice green, you know, warrior suit on. And here’s the truth. And people know parts of this story, but they don’t know it in its cleanest narrative.

So he was a totally apolitical. He was an outsider to politics, zero experience or interest in government or politics. He was a comedian and with no manifesto, no party ties. And he does a TV show, a planned TV show called “Servant of the People.” And the main character in the show does a YouTube video that calls out oligarchs and corruption and eventually becomes popular and is drafted as a protest candidate and eventually becomes president.

So Zelenskyy played on a TV show a person who becomes president by popular demand. In real life, the TV show is supported by an oligarch named Kolomoisky who owned the TV channel. And Kolomoisky did a huge non-stop promo on that TV show to make it the number one show. Prime time slots and ads everywhere and crossovers with the news and what have you.

2018, a year before the show goes off the air, Zelenskyy forms a political party called “Servant of the People,” the same title as the show, and in no press release, secretly done. And then he does another season of the show. And in April of 2019, he announces his actual candidacy on Instagram. He has no campaign, no rallies, no real platform. He skips the presidential debates others attended. He avoids press conferences, and the few that he did in the beginning were really bad.

And Kolomoisky’s TV channel gave Zelenskyy’s campaign endless airtime and favorable polls and went after his enemies. The US intelligence agencies, CIA and NSA helped us spending $5 billion by the way, on democracy campaigns in Ukraine, funneled through NGOs and USAID embeds advisers in his organization to help with the campaign. I’m almost done.

And on election day, Zelenskyy wins with 73% of the vote. And then the war happens with Russia and he declares martial law and he ends elections. That’s supposed to be an election in 2024. That’s what we get for our democracy money. And quite literally, he is an actor in a carefully designed television show. He is a construct, like Epstein is a construct, meaning he’s a created entity. And it worked.

That is Zelenskyy, American hero. I guess his star is maybe fading a little bit now. I don’t know. What do you think? Is he still wildly popular in America?

JOE ROGAN: Well, I think people are very disappointed by the fact that the wars continue to go on and the deaths, the amount of deaths. I mean, people are horrified by it. And that’s a big failure of the promises of the Trump administration too, because Trump famously said that he would get it done in 24 hours. You can’t get it done at all.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, it’s tough.

JOE ROGAN: And they’re conscripting 60 year old men, sending them to the front line and.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Americans and people from all over the world to go and fight. But the narrative, I think, you know, your very first question was, do people do this on purpose? Things like this, like wars that are multi-billion dollar events, they are not organic, they do not just happen. You know, he is, Putin does not just decide one day, hey, I got an idea, you know, and to go into a part of Ukraine where they’re Russian speakers, they’re culturally Russian and it is not, they are not organic events. It’s not how people get into power in many countries around the world.

The Reality of Modern Warfare

JOE ROGAN: Well, the crazy thing is the narrative that the soldiers in Russia were being told that this was going to be over very quickly, they’re going to be welcomed and then, you know, they had dress uniforms in their packs. Yeah, they thought it was going to be a couple of days. Storm in, storm out, you’re a hero.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, we were told that in Iraq that we will be, you know, welcomed in Iraq as soon as we get to Baghdad.

JOE ROGAN: So what do you think the Ukraine thing is really all about?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, why limit it to Ukraine? Just talk about human war. I mean, what is human war always about? It’s about primacy and control and wealth. And you know, a thousand years ago there’s about a thousand what you would call government systems, right? There’s warlords and there’s shoguns in Japan and there’s all these little entities.

In our lifetime it’s down to 190. But is it really 190? It’s more like five, right? NATO and China and the Soviet bloc when it existed, and the oil producing countries. In other words, it’s getting to be whatever number you want to make it. But eventually it’ll be two f*ers sitting in a room and then they got.

JOE ROGAN: To kill each other, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: And then, you know, that is the decay of empire. And we are, you know, we have 760 military bases overseas. China has one. And I’m not saying China good, US bad. China’s got different methods for, you know, the s* they’re doing.

But you ask me, what’s this war about? And I think we should never talk now anymore about individual wars and their narratives because it’s just a reality of human beings and human history that all wars are justified. Every single war is justified. Right. It depends which narrative you want to choose. Ukraine has a perfectly good narrative. Russia has a good narrative, and the US is kind of the weakest narrative.

We’re at war with Russia is what it boils down to. Right. Wars now are electronic, and so the US is currently at war with Russia just using the bodies, the meat grinder of the Ukrainians. But we are. We are firing missiles. We are providing the signals intelligence. We are providing the satellite information. That is how war is fought today. And it’ll be more and more.

Look at the, you know, the drone attacks, the drone attacks that Ukraine supposedly accomplished. You think any US technology might have been involved in that?

JOE ROGAN: No chance.

GAVIN DE BECKER: No chance. I knew it. I apparently am a conspiracy theorist. What I want to be, by the way, is just I don’t have the answers on these things, but I want to accept in the time I’m 71, in the time I have left on Earth, I want to accept that these things are part of humanity and part of the human nature, particularly when you have big centralized governments.

George Carlin had a great joke. He said, it wasn’t even a joke. We said it on the Tonight Show. He said, “I really love people as individuals, but as soon as you get two or more together, I can’t stand them.” Right. Political parties, governments, all of that stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Well, large groups, you know.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. It doesn’t work.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s a diffusion of responsibility too. You can kind of, that’s why how corporations can function. There’s so many people. You don’t feel bad for what you’re doing. You’re part of a greater thing. It can’t be stopped.

Finding Hope and Optimism

GAVIN DE BECKER: Congress is like that will declare war on some country and no one person is responsible. But I would like to say something optimistic, Joe, and that is that, you know what COVID did something. The disaster of it. I’m not talking only about the virus. I looked at my life and said, what are the ways things that I’m grateful for today that didn’t exist?

I made a strong commitment to travel with my kids because we were told we couldn’t. And I’m very grateful for that having happened. I lost a lot of relationships, as I’m sure you did, and we both will after this talk today. But I also made some of the strongest relationships in my life. I mean, people now who you or I could show up at their front door in a crisis at 2 in the morning and they’d let us in.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And so, well, you found out who’s courageous. That’s a very important piece. And the heroism of that, you know, you are one of the people who has given me optimism and hope because you put it on the line in a way that most people don’t. And governments didn’t like it. It powerful governments didn’t like it and still don’t like it.

And so those relationships, I think, have made, they give me optimism. And also, a dear friend of mine said, when you think of the worst things that human beings do, you should also think of the lofty things they do at the same time, which is heroism and supporting each other and loving each other.

And our willingness, yours and mine even, to talk about this stuff, you know, publicly is a, neither one of us is claiming to know all these answers, but we’re asking questions, and apparently, you know, there are consequences for that.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s also, there’s a reason to do it because it’s not being done. If you’re looking at mainstream media, if you’re looking at all these very respected newspapers and television shows, whether it’s the New York Times or the Washington Post, why aren’t they, why isn’t this on the front page of their newspaper? Why isn’t this the lead on their television show?

The Corruption of Mainstream Media

GAVIN DE BECKER: Because they are deeply corrupted and probably right after pharma, they are the most responsible for the suffering that people went through. You know, during the COVID years, 6 million people died from just regular things in America alone because their families couldn’t be with them. Right. You had a whole year in which you couldn’t go to the hospital and hold the hand of your father.

One of the most I had, I could not be with my father when he died. One of the most important passages in our lives is to be there for each other in that time, just like childbirth. And so these are dark, you know, these are dark outcomes.

And in America, we have more of an opportunity to resist than most other countries do. And I hope more people will be, you know, will be skeptical and will do it. And that there’s hope in that. I mean, there’s optimism in that. But I just have to let go of all of my beliefs that this is outrageous. Meaning this is not outrageous. This is the way things are.

JOE ROGAN: It’s normal. Yeah, it’s normal. We were just very delusional before COVID. Yeah, I mean, I certainly was.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Me too. I was as gullible as the very people that I, you know, I look in the car and see the guy with two masks in the next car. I was just as gullible. Just different things.

The Lasting Impact of COVID-19 Deception

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s also sometimes it’s like something like this happens. And at what point in your life does it happen? Maybe it happened to me when I was 20. I probably would have had a way different reaction than when I was 53. It’s just at that time in my life, I was like, I don’t trust you guys anymore. I’ve already seen enough bullshit from you guys. I know this can’t be 100% what’s going on.

But the extent of the deception, I never would have imagined the extent of the corruption. I never guessed. I thought the doctors were great. I never thought they were ever doing anything that would be bad for your health just because there’s a profit incentive. I never thought that.

Yeah, I was a little skeptical about some surgeries. Like, some surgeons wanted to do surgery. I’m like, I think you could rehab that. But other than that, I never thought that there would be this level of corruption with pharmaceutical drug companies.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Maybe this is a blessing to come out of COVID because it was very persuasive. What does, I mean, I can get pissed off at many things. One of them is that no human beings ever pay a penalty for this stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right.

JOE ROGAN: Even if it’s just money gets Albert Bourla.

GAVIN DE BECKER: What does he care about a fine? Criminal fine?

JOE ROGAN: They don’t care. They’re still making so much money. And people are still f*ing taking it right now, today. Sure, there’s ads for it. I’ve seen an ad where a lady has, like, two Band-Aids, and once she goes, “I got my flu and my COVID all in one shot.” Like, why?

The Smallpox Vaccine and Monkeypox

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’s a good question. And by the way, the smallpox vaccine, which I talk about in the book, in the context of showing we know a lot about it because it’s old, and it lists the people who are most vulnerable to problems from the smallpox vaccine, which is a nice service for the CDC to do. Meaning, if you have any of these conditions, be watchful of the smallpox vaccine, which is not a popular vaccine, obviously, unless you have a smallpox outbreak.

What do they list on there? Diabetes. Oh, well, there’s 65 million Americans. Family history of heart disease. You know, somebody who doesn’t have a family history of heart disease, meaning everybody in America, it’s perfectly safe for. Except everybody in America.

Now, the reason I’m mentioning it is that’s the vaccine that they rolled out for monkeypox. Same vaccine. And a million people took the monkeypox vaccine. And the government was trying to get monkeypox to be as scary as, you know, as COVID, but they couldn’t find anybody with monkeypox. They kept showing the same hands with monkeypox and there was some African kid and they couldn’t find anybody with it.

And so eventually most people didn’t care. But a million people lined up and then CDC said, “How about two? I think we should do two of these monkeypox vaccines. You know, that should be the regimen.” And so people are scared of, you know, throughout history there were always witch doctors in every village.

JOE ROGAN: Right. God, the monkeypox one was wild because it was really only promiscuous gay guys that were getting it.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, and only six of them.

JOE ROGAN: Four guys died, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. You got a, I don’t even know about that.

JOE ROGAN: I think four guys died.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I mean, we think we’re told four guys died. Yeah, that can be. Sure.

JOE ROGAN: That’s right. But it was a thing where they were trying to spread it like a new epidemic that was going to run through the country.

GAVIN DE BECKER: No, it was good. Like AIDS. It was going to run and they tried it twice.

JOE ROGAN: They tried it once and it didn’t take. And they tried a second time and…

GAVIN DE BECKER: You know, they changed the name as well.

JOE ROGAN: What is it now?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Let’s think what it is.

JOE ROGAN: Monkey’s offense.

GAVIN DE BECKER: No, no, they, monkey was a little comical. Monkeypox didn’t sound serious enough so they changed it to something else. Pardon me for not remembering during the Biden administration. They changed it to something else and they tried to roll it out and you know this. What is it here?

JOE ROGAN: According…

GAVIN DE BECKER: Mpox.

JOE ROGAN: Mpox.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s a good sound. That’s right.

JOE ROGAN: Mpox.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Mpox. That sounds a little scary, doesn’t it? You know, now that I’ve seen the word Mpox, I think I might get that vaccine later today.

JOE ROGAN: It’s better. It sounds better than monkeypox. Mpox is kind of terrifying.

Forbidden Facts and Growing Skepticism

GAVIN DE BECKER: It is. And I don’t want to get it clinical. I don’t want to get it. So I’m going to get this. So this, you know, all this stuff that I explored over the last year does leave me with some optimism because when COVID happened the book 1984 in 2021, it was the 17th best selling book in the world. So somebody was, had their head screwed on.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And so that gives me a little bit of hope. And this book, which, can I be a whore and hold it up again?

JOE ROGAN: Forbidden Facts.

GAVIN DE BECKER: That’s the book.

JOE ROGAN: Where can one get that? Can they get it Amazon? Did you do an audio version of it?

GAVIN DE BECKER: There’s an audio version.

JOE ROGAN: Did you read it?

GAVIN DE BECKER: I did, yes. And I love when the authors read it.

JOE ROGAN: Yes, me too.

GAVIN DE BECKER: And there’s also a, whatever you call it, an e-book version which is only $5. I don’t make any money from the book. The publisher doesn’t make any money from the book. The purpose of the book is to help some people, persuade some other people to be more pessimistic because, sorry. Well, that was an interesting slip, to be more, to have more skepticism. Don’t be more pessimistic.

Yeah. It might have the result of making some people more pessimistic, but to be more realistic about this stuff so that we can maybe have enough people who say, you know what I mean? Interestingly, by the way, right now, COVID shots were supposed to be given down to six months old. Not at this moment. They stopped by RFK Junior and the new administration.

But it was supposed to be given down to six months old and almost no parents did it. So that’s something to be optimistic about. They just, whatever their sense is, this thing didn’t really help the vaccine industry as much as they probably hoped.

JOE ROGAN: I think it did the exact opposite.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I hope.

JOE ROGAN: I think it opened up a lot of people’s eyes to alternative ways of doing things. But the problem is with some school systems, your children must be fully vaccinated in order to attend. Unless you have some sort of religious exemption.

GAVIN DE BECKER: No, even religious exemption is taken away in California. In California.

JOE ROGAN: California’s f*ing nuts.

Moving to Texas and Testing Protocols

GAVIN DE BECKER: Trying to take it away in, you want to move back. Oh, by the way, another benefit I got you’re part of which is that I came here to see you a few years ago and then I drove to San Antonio and I looked at some properties that were like old hotels because they were all empty during COVID time. They’d had problems. And we moved our company headquarters to San Antonio, Texas, out of California. And that’s been awesome.

Where you go and you meet with a building inspector and he says, “Hey, that looks good. Yeah. Okay.” As opposed to waiting eight months to get a no. I mean the whole Texas thing is a gift from you that I’m so grateful for. And our company now is based in San Antonio as its headquarters and we don’t require vaccination, needless to say.

And we had one 31-year-old applicant fall down dead during the run. We have a physical, you know, a run for physical requirements, physical fitness requirements. Vaccinated. And we did the testing for troponin and for D-dimer, which is the cardiac indicators from, of cardiac problems. We did it for every applicant.

And in the first 54 people, these are all young men who don’t smoke. These are all fit people. In the first 54, 17 had to go to cardiologists. That’s the true stat.

JOE ROGAN: And they had no idea there was anything wrong with them?

GAVIN DE BECKER: No. And some of them, there wasn’t anything wrong with them.

JOE ROGAN: The D-dimer test detects blood clots, is that correct?

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’s for micro clotting. And troponin and D-dimer are both cardiac indicators. And I’ll tell you why I did it. I was having lunch with a very well known doctor from Yale who now has left Yale, one of the people who opposed the vaccine program and opposed the mandatory vaccines for college students, but not, you know, they were giving it to students but not faculty. Jesus.

Anyway, he said to me, I said, “We’re not taking anybody and putting them through the physical fitness regimen to apply to our company if they were vaccinated in the last two weeks.” And he said, “Well, where’d you get two weeks?” I said, “I read it in an article. I really don’t know.” He said, “No, no, no, two weeks isn’t going to make any difference. You have to test them for D-dimer and troponin levels.”

So we started doing that and then we did the entire company. Anybody who was vaccinated. Many people chose to be. They were coming out of the military.

Cardiac Markers and Myocarditis

JOE ROGAN: But can I, correct me if I’m wrong? Troponin levels are something they measure for myocarditis, correct?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah, I mean, it’s one of the cardiac markers in general in blood.

JOE ROGAN: And isn’t one of the reasons why they were saying that more young people who were, who just infected by the virus had higher rates of myocarditis than even people that were vaccinated? Remember they were trying to say that in the beginning.

GAVIN DE BECKER: They did say it. And it is bullshit.

JOE ROGAN: It is bullshit. But it was because of troponin levels. Right. So they measured during infection.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. I don’t know the answer, but it’s possible. It’s certainly, I know the answer, that it is one of the things measured during infection.

JOE ROGAN: But they were calling it myocarditis when there wasn’t.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Actually, that makes sense.

JOE ROGAN: There wasn’t a scan on the heart to see enlargement of the heart.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Right. There wasn’t, you know, you can.

JOE ROGAN: They were just measuring troponin levels and saying, “Look, there’s more myocarditis in people that are infected with the vaccine or the virus, rather than the vaccine.”

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, that is, I don’t know all the details, but that is now dropped. In any case, they’ve dropped that defense because the reality is when you, there was a test done at the Cleveland Clinic of all the healthcare professionals before they were vaccinated and then all of them after, and they had had COVID and so they had a baseline of how many had elevated D-dimer, for example, and then afterwards, I’m not going to quote the stat because I just don’t remember it.

Many, many people had the elevated D-dimer afterwards who didn’t have it before. So the vaccine, the idea that the vaccine, it’s a good idea, it’s what they always try. Right. Which is to say the disease is worse than the thing you’re being vaccinated against.

By the way, the expert who told me to get everybody tested in my company because they’re young, fit men and they’re stressed physically, they’re very often heavy exertion, both through our academy and of course in the work is Dr. Harvey Risch. Just FYI, I just wanted to acknowledge that that’s the guy he was, couldn’t have been more prominent and decorated and important up until he started taking positions against COVID.

And then he, you know, then he eventually left Yale. He’s still, I think, emeritus professor there. But all those guys who were brave are really heroic because the, and some of them now are in, you know, NIH and FDA, you know.

JOE ROGAN: Now, which is very interesting, right?

GAVIN DE BECKER: Very interesting, interesting development.

JOE ROGAN: Interesting. It’s going to be interesting to see what they’re able to accomplish over these four years.

Moving to Texas and California’s Decline

GAVIN DE BECKER: Well, I’ll tell you a piece of it that is good for your listeners to hear, and that is that a lot of things are being accomplished that the corporate media just doesn’t report. Right?

So when, for example, when the ACIP committee decided to take mercury out of all vaccines and Bobby did an impassioned presentation, a video asking all countries in the world to follow, many had already done it before. Nobody reported that. No corporate media reported that.

So there’s a lot of things going on that people just don’t, they just aren’t aware of and that are very valuable. You know, stopping a bunch of mRNA research projects that didn’t look like they were promising and stopping fluoride in water, recommending against it, all the things that are going on with foods. There’s a lot going on there, but nobody will report it because, because if you didn’t know this already, the corporate media hates Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. A lot. And I wonder if it has anything to do with being funded by pharma. Who knows?

JOE ROGAN: It might have something to do with it. I saw a statistic that showed the percentage of mainstream news articles that were negative about him. And it’s bananas. It’s in the 90s.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. And we also, even when I was here last time, we put up that something over 90% of cable news channels are sponsored by pharma. In fact, something like 80 something percent is just Pfizer all by itself, by the way.

Optimistic. So we moved my company to San Antonio. I’m so happy about it. My employees are so much happier about it. We operate all over the country, but our training now is here. And we’re always hiring. And it is, we’re now hiring in a state, we’re hiring from anywhere in the country, but we’re hiring in a state where people like something in common. Freedom. Yeah, right.

And in California, God bless California. I lived there for, you know, I was born there and most of my life. But holy shit, you’ve been to San Francisco. Holy shit.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I don’t even go anymore.

GAVIN DE BECKER: It’s too f*ed up.

JOE ROGAN: I have friends that just went, they did shows there. They said it’s hard to get people to go out because if you park your car anywhere, it’s going to get broken into.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And he was talking to the people there, and it’s just a ghost town. Restaurants are closing, everything’s flat. Just people just refuse. Everywhere you look in the street, just human waste and shit and piss.

GAVIN DE BECKER: You’re making it sound bad.

JOE ROGAN: It’s just crazy how bad it got in such a short amount of time.

Social Decay and Empire Decline

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yeah. San Francisco too, you know, stores boarded up and we’re in a, we’re definitely in a time of social decay. And that is a reality that we all have to accept. And that is, by the way, also part of human nature. That’s what empires do. Empires decay. Right.

JOE ROGAN: I mean, it doesn’t seem necessary if it’s not everywhere.

GAVIN DE BECKER: I think it’s necessary. Oh, you mean necessary to have LA be that bad or San Francisco be that? Oh, no, of course not.

JOE ROGAN: It can be corrected. It’s just, how are you not correcting? And everybody keeps voting the same way. And it’s just, do you not see where this trend is headed? You’ve got to do something radical to clean this up.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Maybe Vic Caruso, I mean, Rick Caruso will run for mayor. He ran the last time.

JOE ROGAN: Maybe he’ll run for governor.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Yes, that’s possible, too. And he’s an interesting, I know him and a very interesting guy. And I would, I would vote for him and support him in every way I can.

But it’s possible because when these fires happened, probably the most common thing you heard in LA was, “Oh, shit, I wish I’d voted for Rick Caruso.” They voted for somebody that didn’t have much history and just didn’t do a great job around the fires.

And, you know, it’s sad to see that decay the way that it is. But I want to work on the optimistic part that I’m not there anymore. I stay in a hotel when I go there. It’s so much fun because it reminds me every time I push the elevator button, I don’t live here anymore.

JOE ROGAN: All right, well, Gavin, thank you very much. Hold up your book one more time so people can go buy it. “Forbidden Facts.” Appreciate you very much, sir.

GAVIN DE BECKER: Thank you. Thank you. You, too. Bye, buddy.

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