Transcript: Shonda Rhimes on Call Her Daddy Podcast – Women Need To Brag More

I’m at George’s death. Like, I’m still in that.

SHONDA RHIMES: Like, in the early…

ALEX COOPER: Yes. Initial intern era, we’re going to get to all that. We have so much to get through.

Life in Connecticut vs. LA

ALEX COOPER: Also, you moved to Connecticut, right?

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes, I did.

ALEX COOPER: During the pandemic.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: How are you feeling being back in LA versus Connecticut life? How do we feel?

SHONDA RHIMES: You know what? I love living in Connecticut, and it’s really interesting. Like, I lived in LA for almost 30 years right from the very beginning of my career from film school on. I do not miss it at all.

ALEX COOPER: Fair.

SHONDA RHIMES: Like, and I’m shocked by that. I miss my friends. I miss, but I do not miss it.

ALEX COOPER: You’ve made friends in Connecticut, though.

SHONDA RHIMES: I’ve made friends in Connecticut. It’s just a very different vibe. Nobody’s in the business. Nobody cares.

ALEX COOPER: So you can, like, go to the grocery store and people are like…

SHONDA RHIMES: I cried. Like, I went to Costco and I got a Costco card and I cried in the parking lot.

ALEX COOPER: Why?

SHONDA RHIMES: Because it’s like the first time I was ever able to do anything that felt like that normal.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, my God, you’re fully going to Costco every day being like, does anyone notice me? Nope. Perfect. Check.

SHONDA RHIMES: In LA, I can give everybody a job. Like, it’s not just that people knew who I was, but I’m a person who could hire an actor, an executive, a director. I could give anybody a job. So it felt like everybody knew who I was and wanted something. Not in a mean way, but you know what I mean?

ALEX COOPER: No. Everyone wanted something from you.

SHONDA RHIMES: And in Connecticut, they’re like, we like your shows, but they don’t know. You don’t even know.

ALEX COOPER: I’m trying to get to the egg.

SHONDA RHIMES: Exactly. Exactly.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, that’s so interesting. You kind of now have this reprieve.

SHONDA RHIMES: Since getting away, this crazy freedom, which, you know, I like talking to Ellen Pompeo. It’s different for her. Like, in LA, she gets to be, like, more invisible because everyone’s used to actors. When she goes out into the world, it’s totally different.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, that’s so interesting. I didn’t even think about that. You’re right, though, because when you see an actor at a restaurant, you’re like, oh, that’s cool. But you see Shonda Rhimes, you’re like, I’m about to pitch my life.

SHONDA RHIMES: Somebody comes and says, there’s a lot of that. And there’s a lot of waiters who are like, an actor. I’ve got a script, you know, and I love, bless their hearts, you know what I mean? But I was like, I can’t.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, I’m just trying to eat the bread.

SHONDA RHIMES: I started to become a recluse. Like, I stopped leaving my home.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, that’s not healthy.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, it was not healthy.

ALEX COOPER: You need to go to Costco.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, exactly.

The Princess Diaries 2 and Early Career

ALEX COOPER: I am so excited to sit down with you because obviously, so many of your shows are my favorite shows, but you are the most influential showrunner in Hollywood. It is such an honor to sit with you. You have some of the biggest television shows that will go down in history as the best for forever. I will rewatch them forever. They’re timeless.

But when I was starting to research you, I didn’t realize that you wrote one of my favorite movies, which is The Princess Diaries 2.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: Can you tell me just a little bit about what it was like, working on that script and that project?

SHONDA RHIMES: It was so much fun. I mean, I had written, like, very few things at that point. I think I had written, like, the Halle Berry “Introducing Dorothy Dandridge,” and I’d done, I think I’d done “Crossroads” before that. I can’t remember which one came first.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, you did Crossroads?

SHONDA RHIMES: I wrote “Crossroads” starring Britney Spears.

ALEX COOPER: Shonda.

SHONDA RHIMES: I had the most epic experience on that because I was there for the whole filming of it, and every… it was a great experience.

ALEX COOPER: I’m like, what haven’t you done? Also the range of, like, Crossroads, then Grey’s, then Princess Diaries. Oh, wow. So this was after Crossroads.

SHONDA RHIMES: I think it was right after Crossroads.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

SHONDA RHIMES: And it was an amazing experience. It was my first big, like, studio film. The producer was a woman, you know, like, it was just this really great vibe of we’re making this thing. I got to write lines that Julie Andrews got to say, which feels very full circle now, now that we’re Bridgerton.

ALEX COOPER: It’s really cool.

SHONDA RHIMES: You know, it was really cool.

ALEX COOPER: The mattress scene of the sleepover.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes. People talk about that so much because I think…

ALEX COOPER: I know. I’m like, why do I think it’s because the way that you brought a girl’s sleepover not only to life, but then you had this element that was like, I want to try this. Like, I tried it in my house.

SHONDA RHIMES: Did you?

ALEX COOPER: And my mom was like, you have to stop. The mattress isn’t going to fit down the basement stairs.

SHONDA RHIMES: I’m going to do it. No, for me, it was Garry Marshall, who was the director, was like… he brought me into his office, and he’s like, epic. I mean, the man’s done everything. He brought me into his office, and he was like, we need a sleepover party. Like, that was what he said, Shonda. We need a sleepover party.

And I was like, what? And he was like, we need this. And I had the greatest time writing it, but I’ve been like, what the heck is this dude talking about? He was so right, though.

ALEX COOPER: How did you even come up with the mattress idea? Had you done that yourself before?

SHONDA RHIMES: No, no. It just sounds fun and really great.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, it is really fun.

Shondaland Rapid Fire

ALEX COOPER: Okay, I want to play a little game.

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: We’re going to do Shondaland Rapid Fire.

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: Which character would you switch lives with for a day?

SHONDA RHIMES: Cristina Yang.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, but who is she dating at that point?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, I don’t even care who she’s dating.

ALEX COOPER: But can I ask you, Burke or Owen?

SHONDA RHIMES: Neither. Isn’t that interesting. I mean, she ended up alone for a reason. Like, neither.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, but do you think Burke loved her so much that he knew that Cristina couldn’t fully be herself with him, so he let her go?

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes. I mean, the beauty of Burke and, like, having him get to come back and, like, give her that whole facility with the heart printing machines. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: It’s beautiful. Okay, if you are in the middle of a crisis, who would you call first?

SHONDA RHIMES: Olivia Pope.

ALEX COOPER: Oh.

SHONDA RHIMES: Without question.

ALEX COOPER: Well, I was going to say either Meredith Grey. Let’s say you’re in the middle of a forest.

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: You are bleeding to death, and you accidentally killed someone. Are we calling Olivia Pope? Are we calling Annalise Keating? Are we calling Meredith?

SHONDA RHIMES: I’m calling Olivia Pope. Okay, me too. Because Olivia Pope knows how to get to everybody else.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, that’s true. Someone will fix you up, and you’ll be fine. Okay, great. What is your favorite line of dialogue you’ve ever written?

SHONDA RHIMES: I don’t have a favorite line of dialogue. I mean, I’ve written so much dialogue, and it’s so interesting to hear it come back to me, that I know what’s big for other people, but I don’t know that I have a particular favorite line of dialogue.

ALEX COOPER: Like, when you write something like, “pick me, choose me, love me.” Did you have any idea? Or you’re just, like, writing one day, and you’re like, huh?

SHONDA RHIMES: You have to remember, like, for me, Grey’s Anatomy was my very first television show. I was learning to write TV while writing that show. So I wasn’t thinking, like, this is going to be an iconic moment. I literally was just writing something I really wanted to watch.

ALEX COOPER: Shonda, I am obsessed. You being like, it was, like, my first go at it. Meanwhile, it’s like, wait. It’s perfection to a T.

SHONDA RHIMES: Which I love that you responded, that you…

ALEX COOPER: Okay, what’s been the most romantic Bridgerton moment, in your opinion?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. “I burn for you.” Season one. The Duke.

ALEX COOPER: So good. Yeah. Would you rather intern at Seattle Grace or Olivia Pope and Associates?

SHONDA RHIMES: Seattle Grace.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, good answer. What is an illness you were convinced you had after writing about it for Grey’s?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my gosh. There’s so many. There’s literally so many.

ALEX COOPER: Did you become a little bit of a hypochondriac?

SHONDA RHIMES: You become a terrible hypochondriac. Worse than that, I became somebody who became convinced that I could, like, solve people’s medical emergencies. I was like, there were pregnant women in my writer’s room, and I’d be like, if you need a C-section I got you. We can just put you on the table. We got it done. People were like, stop it.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, I am a doctor.

SHONDA RHIMES: I still believe I can do an appendectomy, beginning to end. Still believe that right now.

ALEX COOPER: I think we all kind of, though, thought that we were doctors. By the end, I was like, I kind of know what’s going on. That’s really interesting. I didn’t even think about that with the hiccups also.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: Shonda, you messed me up. When that happened, I was like, she died from hiccups. And then every time I hiccup now…

SHONDA RHIMES: I think of you.

ALEX COOPER: I don’t know if that’s good or bad, but the truth. Okay, what is something you took from one of the sets?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I might get in trouble for this, but I took the Resolute desk that, like, the John F. Kennedy Resolute desk that Fitz has. I have that. I take a lot of things.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, wait, wait. How did you get a desk out of there with no one noticing? You’re just, like, carrying it.

SHONDA RHIMES: I took a lot of things. Oh, my God.

ALEX COOPER: We…

SHONDA RHIMES: That’s… Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: That’s iconic.

SHONDA RHIMES: There’s a lot of things I’ve taken, and I’m sure one day someone’s going to be upset about it, but I could probably have a museum. I’ve taken stuff that means something to me.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, do you use the desk, or it’s just in storage?

SHONDA RHIMES: No, that’s in storage. For a long time, I really wanted to use it. And everyone’s like, Shonda, not quite. So it’s in storage.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, man. Maybe you’ll pull it out one day, and right there, you’ll be like, this is going to give me some inspo. Okay, which actor are you the closest friends with today?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, that’s interesting. Scott Foley, who plays Jake Ballard.

ALEX COOPER: Interesting.

SHONDA RHIMES: And the reason is, is because he and I and his wife are great friends. We live in the same town now. I moved to Connecticut, and I kind of moved to the town they moved to, which is a stalker move, but wasn’t on purpose.

ALEX COOPER: He’s like, Shonda.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: He’s like, you want to put me in another show?

SHONDA RHIMES: So our kids are friends. We’re friends. Marika and I are golf buddies. We learn how to golf together. So Jake Ballard.

ALEX COOPER: So, yeah, he was supposed. It made sense. And it didn’t make sense with Olivia. It was always Fitz.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: But he wanted her. And it makes me sad, but Fitz and her. Just the fact that you had us rooting for an affair.

SHONDA RHIMES: Shocking. I’m very proud of that. I mean, in a terrible way, I’m proud of it. Because that’s what you wanted. I wanted people to go on the journey that Olivia went on.

ALEX COOPER: I would be smiling that I’m like, stop it. What am I doing? This is wrong. Poor Melly, meanwhile. Yeah, they weren’t meant to be together anyways. Fitz and Melly were not right.

SHONDA RHIMES: No. Okay.

Early Passion for Storytelling

ALEX COOPER: When you were younger. Let’s go all the way back.

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: Did you know you wanted to be a writer? Was there anything else you were passionate about over writing?

SHONDA RHIMES: I don’t know that I knew I wanted to be a writer, but from the time I was little, I was making up stories into a tape recorder, then trying to get my mom to type them up. But I thought for a long time, I was like, I want to be a doctor. I want to be a lawyer. I want to be. You know what I mean? I wanted to be all these things, but really, I didn’t want to be them. I just wanted to research them and then pretend.

ALEX COOPER: Right. And then you wrote these characters of who maybe you would have been one day.

SHONDA RHIMES: So I get to pretend to be all these things, but really, I just. In my mind, I was going to spend my whole time in a big, giant library, reading all the books I could. That was my idea of a perfect life.

ALEX COOPER: Do you remember one of the first stories you ever wrote?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. No, I don’t. I don’t remember ones I wrote when I was little.

ALEX COOPER: No, but you were constantly writing.

SHONDA RHIMES: I was constantly making up stories. I wouldn’t say I was constantly. I think I started writing in earnest when I was maybe eight.

ALEX COOPER: And where do you think that came from of creating stories? Were you escaping your reality? Were you liking the creative.

SHONDA RHIMES: I had a really amazing childhood. I’m the youngest of six kids, and my parents are these very intellectual, interesting people. And so I grew up in this house of, there was always something going on. And I was the quiet one. I was the shy one. I was the weird one. I was an odd kid, and I just. I don’t know. I grew up. I would say I grew up in books. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: One of six is interesting because it’s like, I feel like the youngest can either be the loudest or the most introverted, and there’s kind of no in between. There’s no, the middle child can kind of go back and forth on the day to day. The youngest is set in stone. And that’s okay. That’s interesting, because I know. I read. You would go into your pantry.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And you would write all of these stories.

SHONDA RHIMES: It wasn’t even that I would write. I would sit in the pantry and I’d play in there from the time I was three or something, really young. And I would have all these stories and worlds going on. The pantry was like a kingdom to me. My mom would open the pantry door and be like, I need to make dinner. And I’d be like, who gets to die? The cans of tomato paste, which were the peasants. They got to die today.

ALEX COOPER: I think a lot of people would love to be in your brain for a day, because I feel like there’s so many things going on and so many brilliant stories, which, thankfully, you’ve let us into a little bit. Okay, so fast forward. You went to Dartmouth when you graduated. What were you picturing for yourself?

Post-College Struggles

SHONDA RHIMES: I was so miserable when I graduated, and I say this all the time to people who are graduating. I laid on the floor of my dorm room and sobbed while my mother packed my room because I was like, I’m not leaving. I don’t know what to do. I was so lost.

ALEX COOPER: Was it more that you loved college life or you didn’t know what was next?

SHONDA RHIMES: I loved college life. I was thriving there. But I also had no idea what was next. I didn’t have a job coming out. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I knew, I kept telling people, I want to be Toni Morrison, but you can’t just be Toni Morrison. And so I was lost.

ALEX COOPER: That’s so interesting, because a lot of the questions I have today, I think, will hopefully allow young women watching to feel how relatable your story can be for them of not knowing where you were at that point. And it’s so relatable to. It’s so annoying when you have that friend that’s like, I’ve got the job out of college. Bye, guys.

SHONDA RHIMES: And you’re like, exactly what I’m doing.

ALEX COOPER: Nothing. I was the same way. I was so lost. I was like, I don’t even know what to do. And then I took a job that I didn’t love because I was like, I need to pay the bills and I need to pay rent. What else am I going to do?

SHONDA RHIMES: Which is important. It’s what you’re supposed to do, really. I always say, do something until you can do something else. I moved and I lived in my sister’s basement in the suburbs of San Francisco.

ALEX COOPER: And what did you do?

SHONDA RHIMES: And I got a job working at an advertising agency.

ALEX COOPER: How did that go?

SHONDA RHIMES: I was the receptionist. And then I was a little account person who was billing people for the ads. And then there was one day when they asked everybody at the company, they were doing a test commercial for Barbie and they asked everybody to write an experience of Barbie and share it with them if they had one.

And I wrote this essay about my Barbie and how Ken was useless and she used to stuff her shoes in Ken’s head and she traveled everywhere and lived the best life. And they picked my essay and they made it the test commercial. They didn’t get the account, but I got to go and do the voiceover of this test commercial that they made based on an essay I wrote. And that was the moment I was like, okay, I can do this. I gotta get out of here.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, no more advertising.

SHONDA RHIMES: No more advertising.

ALEX COOPER: That’s pretty incredible that you were in a job that maybe you weren’t as fulfilled in, but then there was a sliver of your passion that you were able to grab onto. And then it reminded you, oh, I gotta go for it.

SHONDA RHIMES: And it’s important to have those moments because you know when you’re working in those jobs and you’re doing the grunt thing, you’re invisible. Nobody is thinking that you’re smart. Nobody wants to hear your ideas. Nobody’s looking to you like you’re invisible. Good point. And it’s a really soul crushing feeling. I remember that being a soul crushing feeling. But you have to remember that your time is coming.

Advice for Finding Your Path

ALEX COOPER: It’s so true. And it’s also paying your dues of everyone’s. Most people are going to have those jobs. You’re like, why am I here? Why am I here? Why am I here? But most of it leads you to then having even more strength to be like, I have to find what I love because I can’t do this forever. And it almost propels you forward in a way that maybe had you gotten something that was kind of cool and you kind of liked, you would have just been like, this is pretty cool. So if you’re in the shitter right now, trust us, it’s going to go up from here.

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s going to get better. But I agree with you. I then went to film school and I got out of film school. And I got a job working at a place for the mentally ill and housed. It was a terrible job for me. I was not fit for the job. But what it meant was that every night I went home and I was like, if I don’t write, then I’m not doing anything. So I wrote crazy and sort of wrote my way out of that situation.

ALEX COOPER: Can you just kind of. To summarize that, because I do think this is such a big theme for people is a lot of people feel lost. What we’re talking about with their careers. Do you have to pinpoint that? Any advice for someone who is literally listening to this right now, being like, Shonda, I am going through it in my 20s. I can’t find myself. What do I do? Any advice?

SHONDA RHIMES: You know what I always feel like is now is the time. If there’s something you’ve always wanted to try to do, there’s some dream you have that is the time to do it. I always tell people, you’re never going to be as willing to be as broke and poor as you are right now. So, 10 years from now, when you’ve been working in that human resources job, you’re not going to go, I’m going to dump all this and now go be broke because now I have a bigger rent to pay. Maybe I have a kid. Do it then when you can be broke and it’s just you trying to make your dream come true.

ALEX COOPER: Everyone after this episode quits their job. They’re like, woo. Shonda told me. It’s really good advice, though. You’re right. There is no going back after that. So just do it now.

SHONDA RHIMES: It never gets easier. It never gets easier. So just jump.

The Beginning of Grey’s Anatomy

ALEX COOPER: Okay. You mentioned Grey’s was really the first thing you worked on, which is insane and incredible. You’re in your early 30s when this happened. Okay, talk to me about how you came up with the idea, all the pieces that got you there.

SHONDA RHIMES: So I want to say to people, it wasn’t the very first thing I ever did. It’s not like I’d written some movies.

ALEX COOPER: Yes.

The Birth of Grey’s Anatomy

SHONDA RHIMES: And so I’d been working in the industry, but in a very journeyman kind of way. And I became a mom. And so Harper, who is as old as the show, was born. And I realized I was, I did that thing where I had a kid way before anybody else did. 9/11 made me go like, I really want to be a mom. So nine months and two days after 9/11, Harper was born. Yeah.

So I had this kid at 32, and none of my friends had kids. And you never leave the house again once you have a baby, obviously. But I started watching television and I was watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and 24 and all these shows and going, that’s where the real character development is. You know, you could follow a character and really grow them and change them and make them interesting. Whereas in a movie, you got two hours. That’s it. Right?

And so I got excited about that. And I remember saying to my agents, I want to write TV. And them being a little bit horrified, because at that point, TV was not considered sexy at all. So I was determined, and I went and did it. And the year that Grey’s came out, it was the same year Lost and Desperate Housewives came out, which is when television sort of exploded.

ALEX COOPER: And the idea for Grey’s. Talk to me about how that came to be.

SHONDA RHIMES: So the first, I wrote a pilot one year, the very first year, I made the effort to go through, it’s called television development season. I went through development season, and I wrote a show about war correspondence, which was four women who were super competitive and covered wars. And I loved it, but we were kind of at war, and it was considered in poor taste, which was fine.

So the next year, they were like, well, do you want to try another development season again? And I was at ABC and I was like, what does Bob Iger want? He was the chairman of the company. I was like, what does he want? They’re like, he wants a medical show. And I was one of those people who could watch surgeries on those Discovery channels, where they’d show you removing a tumor. I thought that stuff was amazing.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, my God. Okay.

SHONDA RHIMES: And by the way, when I had been thinking about leaving Hollywood, I was going to go and do a post baccalaureate year to then go to medical school. So I was like, this is made for me.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, you’re like, put me in.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: If this doesn’t work out, I’m going to actually become a doctor, so why not write about it first? So you have no real true experience that much in TV. This is your first big moment. Take me to day one writer’s room. What do you remember feeling?

Learning on the Job

SHONDA RHIMES: You know, it was so exciting to me. Even, so you write this pilot. They say they’re going to shoot this pilot. They get ready to shoot the pilot. You’ve written, interior operating room day. And then you go to a stage where they have built you an operating room. They literally built me this two story operating room with a gallery up top that everybody remembers from Grey’s.

I played in that thing for a whole day, yelling clear and pretending to do surgery. I played the whole day because it’s the most amazing playground. So to me, it didn’t feel like work. It was really fun. I was terrified because what happens in television is the writer is in charge. So I’m this very shy person who’s very introverted, who probably could never even been on your podcast back then, who suddenly had 300 people looking at me and being like, what do we do, boss?

ALEX COOPER: What is the biggest lesson that you learned early on?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my gosh. You know what? For me, the biggest lesson I learned early on, and I think this is a lesson that everybody should know. It’s don’t pretend you know something that you don’t know. People do that all the time. They try because they don’t know what they’re doing. They try to act like they know, and then they’re very secretive or closed off and they f* it up really badly.

ALEX COOPER: You can say f* it up here, Shonda. That’s actually one of the nicer things people have said in that chair. That’s good. That’s good. Oh, that’s so, that’s such good advice.

SHONDA RHIMES: So when you don’t know something, say, I have no idea what that is. Can someone explain it to me? Or I don’t know what that is. Let’s figure that out versus pretending that you know.

ALEX COOPER: Did you have that a couple times where you were like, I’m…

SHONDA RHIMES: I was completely lost. I knew nothing. Nothing. I’d never been on a soundstage before except to watch something else be filmed. And now I was in charge of the editors and the music, and I didn’t know anything. And so instead of pretending that I did and making huge mistakes, I just was like, this is like another college. I’m going to learn everything.

The Casting Process

ALEX COOPER: Talk to me about the casting process. How involved were you?

SHONDA RHIMES: Very involved.

ALEX COOPER: Okay. Who was the first person, big main cast that you casted?

SHONDA RHIMES: I’m not sure who was the first person. I remember everybody coming in to read, and I remember T.R. Knight being one of the very first people to come in to read for a role and us being like, we love him immediately. I remember that really, really clearly.

ALEX COOPER: Do you remember Meredith Grey moment?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, well. So that was even better. Ellen never came in to read. Oh, and I don’t think we ever read any Meredith Greys. I remember saying to people she had done this movie called Moonlight Mile, and I remember saying to people, I’m looking for somebody who feels like that girl in Moonlight Mile. I want somebody who feels like that girl. And I kept saying it, and finally someone was like, I think you might be able to have that girl from Moonlight Mile.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, what a concept.

SHONDA RHIMES: And I was like, oh. So then Ellen and I had lunch at Barney’s, I think it was, and we hit it off. It was kind of perfect. I was like, I get her, she gets me.

ALEX COOPER: And you just knew.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. And it was easy.

ALEX COOPER: Talk to me about Sandra.

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, Sandra was really interesting. Because Sandra came in to read for the part of Dr. Bailey. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, I didn’t know that.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, she came in to read for the part of Dr. Bailey. Whoa. And, you know, she had, you know, established actor. She had done, but hadn’t, we hadn’t seen, oh, the movie about the wine.

ALEX COOPER: I know you’re talking about.

SHONDA RHIMES: But, yeah, she had done a bunch of movies and stuff. So Sandra came in and read the part of Dr. Bailey. Blew it out of the water. Did that first monologue that Dr. Bailey does. And we were all like, oh, my God. And everybody was like, okay, she’s Dr. Bailey. And I was like, no, she’s Cristina. And I just knew it. I don’t know how I knew it, but I knew it.

Writing Cristina Yang

ALEX COOPER: And you obviously love that character so much, as we all do. I think something about Cristina Yang that changed, I think a lot of our, I mean, it changed my life in terms of watching a woman be so intense about her craft.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And also be really rigid but loving. But it’s just so complicated. And she’s so fierce, but she’s so soft. The moments she cries. And I wonder, was she one of the hardest ones to write for or the easiest?

SHONDA RHIMES: No. I related to that character so much. And here’s what’s crazy about Grey’s. Those first couple of seasons, it did not feel hard at all. Nothing about it felt hard. I love, I was, I’d made up a world, and I was getting to play in it every week. And so I would be acting out all the parts in my office, being really loud and crying when the characters cried and all that stuff. But I was having the time of my life. It wasn’t hard to write them. They were there.

The Hardest Storylines

ALEX COOPER: They were okay. What storyline was the hardest, emotionally for you to write?

SHONDA RHIMES: Denny Duquette killing Denny. And only because there were other ones that were just as hard later. When George dies, of course. But because that was the first real emotional one. I remember, he died on set. We’d filmed the scene, and I went back to the writers room and sobbed like a baby for an hour. It was too, I’d made that show so much of my life. It was too real for me.

ALEX COOPER: I think I lost a part of my life when that happened, the LVAD. And we’re all crying, and I was like, it was one of the most beautiful moments in television and the saddest moments. And I just, and then that was the season finale, right?

SHONDA RHIMES: I think that was the season. Yeah, it was the season finale.

ALEX COOPER: Because then Meredith is standing there and Derek and Finn.

SHONDA RHIMES: Or was it Finn? Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, my God. And she had just slept with him and the whole thing. Oh, my God. And they’re all in the gowns. Shonda, you, you took us for a ride there.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. I love that.

ALEX COOPER: What storyline pissed the audience off the most, do you think?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, that’s interesting. The storyline. Grey’s. Mm. Wow. Maybe dead Denny coming back to life.

ALEX COOPER: We, we gotta talk.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. I think that upset a lot of people.

ALEX COOPER: What were you thinking?

SHONDA RHIMES: I think I was grieving. Okay. I was just grieving Denny.

ALEX COOPER: I just wanted to see him on…

SHONDA RHIMES: Our screen one more time. I loved him so much, and I loved working with him, and I think I was just grieving.

ALEX COOPER: Well, to be fair, the scenes, obviously, when she goes back because Mer is dying, and then she goes back and she’s seeing her mother in that moment, and then Denny shows up in the bomb squad guy, and you’re like, what’s happening?

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. Okay.

ALEX COOPER: I did love that episode, though, because the whole thing. Okay, which character’s death hit you the hardest?

The Hardest Character Death

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. Probably George’s. I mean, George was really—that character’s so beloved. T.R.’s such a lovely guy. That was such a hard thing to do. He was so—T.R. was so amazing because he didn’t need to lay on that table, but he was like, I’m going to do the role, even though you’re never going to see my face the whole nine years. He was wonderful.

ALEX COOPER: In the palm.

SHONDA RHIMES: 007 in the palm.

ALEX COOPER: You really wanted us to actually have snot coming out of our noses.

SHONDA RHIMES: I mean, it broke me. So I knew that the audience would respond to it, but I really loved it.

ALEX COOPER: And yeah, I also think one that kind of always left me a little unsettled was McSteamy and Lexi. I just felt like they had—I don’t know. I was like, oh, my God. After that plane crash, you’re like, I actually feel like they would have worked weirdly. Towards the end, I was rooting for them, and they were actually getting really cute. And then they were gone. Thanks, Shonda.

SHONDA RHIMES: I have to say, I recently—because I haven’t watched the show. You have to think about the fact that I haven’t really watched the show. So I recently went back and I started watching select pieces of episodes. I watched that episode, and I was horrified. I was like, oh, my God, this is like a freaking snuff film. What the heck?

ALEX COOPER: I know. Thanks.

SHONDA RHIMES: But in it—but during the time when I’m doing it, I’m inside the story, and I always think my job is to be keeper of the story, not keeper of the actors, not keeper of the show, not keeper of the fans. My whole job is to just be true to the story. That was the story. But I watch it back now, and I was like, I can’t believe that actually happened and that people survived watching that. That was horrifying.

You Cannot Be What You Cannot See

ALEX COOPER: We didn’t. We’re still there. We’re still at the plane. Okay, you have said that you cannot be what you cannot see. How have you embodied this through your shows?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, that’s a really wonderful question. I mean, I feel like we really show a vast array of different kinds of women, different kinds of people, different kinds of viewpoints, and it’s not a very purposeful thing where I’m like, we’re going to check this box or check this box. I like to explore all these things.

And I do think that as somebody who grew up maybe not ever really seeing herself, it’s just never occurred to me that we’re going to make a show that doesn’t include me, that doesn’t include a perspective that maybe might be considered an outside perspective.

ALEX COOPER: Can you talk a little bit more about that of not seeing yourself when you were younger?

SHONDA RHIMES: I mean, when you grow up and you’re watching television, the default—and not just the default for women of color, but the default was characters played—either they were the vampy, slutty character, or they were the mom, the very—or they were the sidekick, the smart, quirky secretary.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. There was such a lack of complexity to women, film and TV, that I mean, I think you now hear all these young girls talk about Disney and what it taught us as, you find the guy, and then life is good. And it’s like, well, now, we’ve said that a lot of times, but when you really get underneath the ethos of that, it’s like, there is such a core, established feeling from a young age where you’re watching these magical things, but that one storyline, you’re kind of telling yourself, that needs to be for you.

SHONDA RHIMES: Right?

ALEX COOPER: So the characters you’ve brought to life—that’s why I love Cristina Yang so much, because I also relate to her where I’m such a workaholic. I love my job. I’m intense. I’m all the things. Can we talk about Olivia Pope? I mean, one of the most iconic characters of all time. Talk to me about your inspiration behind her.

The Inspiration Behind Olivia Pope

SHONDA RHIMES: Well, first of all, you know, there’s a woman named Judy Smith who literally is—was a D.C. fixer. She worked with Monica Lewinsky. She worked with lots of different people. She worked in the Bush, the first Bush White House. And she is this D.C. fixer.

And Betsy Beers, who’s my producing partner, brought her to meet me. And I remember thinking, I already have two shows. I’m super busy. I don’t have time for this. And Judy Smith and I sat down to talk about what she did for a living. That’s basically it. And four hours later, I was like, oh, my God, I can write hundreds of episodes of this show.

ALEX COOPER: So it is truly based on a real woman.

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s based on a real woman’s job. Olivia Pope is not Judy Smith, obviously, of course, the president, all that.

ALEX COOPER: Of course.

SHONDA RHIMES: But it was based on a real woman’s job. And that job was so appealing to me. You know, after we had a lot of drama on Grey’s and a lot, you know, behind the scenes drama on Grey’s, the idea of somebody who knew how to fix things like that, when I had to manage crises and solve problems like that, we were fascinated by her.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, and it’s so intense and sexy and fun, but gut wrenching. And her confidence, the way that woman walks into a scene. I mean, also, it’s crazy. Did you know that a lot of the shows that you are known for, these leading women have these iconic walks.

SHONDA RHIMES: I know. Isn’t that funny? Isn’t that funny?

ALEX COOPER: Obviously, Meredith Grey walking in, and then we have—

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, Olivia.

ALEX COOPER: Olivia.

SHONDA RHIMES: These walks. Yeah, it’s funny. I don’t know what that’s about.

ALEX COOPER: But, yeah, kind of iconic. Was there ever a time where the network did push back on one of the stories that you were writing for these women?

Fighting Network Pushback on Abortion Storylines

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. They pushed back on Olivia Pope having an abortion big time.

ALEX COOPER: And they didn’t push back when Cristina—

SHONDA RHIMES: So here’s what’s interesting. I think when the first time Cristina Yang becomes pregnant on the show, which I think is at the end of season one, near that place, that was supposed to be Cristina Yang getting an abortion. And the network didn’t tell me I couldn’t do it, but they did come to me with all of their concerns. And I got scared.

And so she had an ectopic pregnancy instead. Isn’t that interesting? And then when I was doing it with Olivia Pope, I knew what I was doing, and I was like, this feels so right for this character. It’s not even a question for me.

ALEX COOPER: I mean, again, you’re writing things that women are living and breathing every day, and the complexity of these choices that women have to make for themselves and their bodies, and then it is so crazy that then you’re in the position where you’re answering to networks where it’s like, I mean, how do you think writing about Olivia Pope’s abortion, what did that effect have on people?

SHONDA RHIMES: I mean, I think one of the things that we did was I wanted it to be that somebody you knew, admired, loved—because when you spend an hour a week with my characters, a lot of times you’re spending more time with those people than you are with people in your own lives in a more intimate way. I wanted people that somebody knew and loved to be going through this and for it not to be the abortion episode. Do you know what I mean?

ALEX COOPER: Such a good point, right?

SHONDA RHIMES: That was the Christmas episode, actually.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, I forgot.

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s the Christmas episode.

ALEX COOPER: The juxtaposition.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, it’s a very interesting episode, but the network had a problem with it. They were like, you can’t—they wanted to edit it down, and they wanted to be like, you can’t show it. But I had learned something earlier, which I learned with the sex scenes was, you know, they would say to me, we’re worried about this Fitz and Olivia sex scene. And I’d be like, but I shot it shot for shot, like the Meredith and Derek sex scene from Grey’s. So it’s not the scene, it’s the people having the sex.

And then we did it again with How to Get Away with Murder. It’d be two men, and they’d have a problem. I’m like, but we shot it shot for shot. So it’s not the scene, it’s the people. So when we did the abortion, if you notice earlier in two seasons earlier, three seasons earlier, Olivia stands with a soldier while she has her abortion. She holds her hand while she has an abortion. It’s the same scene. And the network was like, you can’t show this. Blah, blah. And I was like, but we already did. Here it is right here.

ALEX COOPER: That’s so interesting that it’s all character based.

SHONDA RHIMES: It really is. And when you think about it, it is. It’s emotional. They’re not—what they’re wanting to say is that technically it’s this or this or this, but it’s not really that. It’s how they feel the audience is going to react to that particular person or that particular couple.

ALEX COOPER: It’s like, no, we’ve already had one of these on the show. They’re like, wait, where?

SHONDA RHIMES: But with all the same sounds, with all the same equipment. They wanted us to remove some of the sound from the abortion machine. All of these things.

ALEX COOPER: And meanwhile, it was one of the most real, honest scenes that you could have given to women.

SHONDA RHIMES: And what I thought was important was that people kept being like, it’s going to be a big deal, and Fitz finds out about it. I was like, that is not the story. That is not—this is not about him, period.

Overcoming the Fear of Losing It All

ALEX COOPER: You said for the first 10 years of Grey’s you were worried it was all going to go away one day.

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Talk to me about how you overcame that fear.

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my God. I don’t know. I feel like—and I talk about this in the new chapter of the book. I don’t think I ever felt—and I know this—I did not feel like my career was settled or like that I could relax until the day that I was sitting in this theater being inducted into the Television Academy Hall of Fame by Oprah Winfrey, which sounds crazy. That was 2016 or something.

And in that moment, I remember holding my daughter’s hand and looking at her and going, we made it. And really, for the first time feeling like that. Up until then, I was like, they could take this away at any time. I could be fired at any time. The audience could turn their back at any time. I can be a has-been at any minute.

ALEX COOPER: Damn.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Isn’t that crazy, though, when you look back at that? What do you wish you could have told yourself? Because obviously, although they could have, the success was—the writing was on the wall.

SHONDA RHIMES: It was undeniable. You know what? For now, now I look back, and I almost don’t want to tell myself anything. I do wish I had enjoyed all the moments more, reveled in them. But if I had, would there have been a Private Practice? Would there have been a Scandal? Would I have been like, I want to own an entire night of television? I was so busy being like, I got to get a second job just in case the first job goes away that it never occurred to me.

ALEX COOPER: That’s a good point. I agree. There’s almost—sometimes you look back and you’re like, what would—I would have—what should I have told myself? But the grit and the tenacity and you pushing yourself to the extreme, maybe there was a beautiful element of that instability that you felt that actually kind of didn’t exist, but you felt important.

SHONDA RHIMES: But it pushed me. Would Grey’s have gone past three or four seasons? Because every year I was like, we have to reinvent this show from the ground up. It’s got to be original. The stories have to be the best stories we’ve ever told. Every season. I was pushing that way. Not because I just loved it, because I was like, if this ends, I’m qualified for nothing other than making stuff up.

The Pressure of Prime Time

ALEX COOPER: Shonda, for making stuff up. Stop it. Stop it. You just referenced 2014. You became responsible for an entire lineup of primetime TV. Talk to me about the pressure you were under when you got that slot. What do you remember feeling at that time?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I remember most them talking about the lineup, but I remember what I remember most is sitting in a hotel room before the television upfronts. They were still negotiating my contract that I was supposed to go on stage the next day, and there were guys standing outside the room with papers.

I remember feeling like, this feels crazy. And so it was all about this contract deal that I wasn’t bending on, and my team was really great on, but I wasn’t really feeling what was happening.

And then we have this moment where I walk out on stage with Viola Davis, and it’s in slow motion in my head and inside that moment, because that’s what happens to me. It’s never I realize it’s happening beforehand inside that moment as it’s happening. I was like, holy crap. We have all of Thursday night. It happened in that moment.

ALEX COOPER: That’s also crazy, too, because it’s the things that obviously the consumers and the viewers don’t get to see is you’re like, I’m so happy you’re all excited for Thursday. My contract’s not even done.

SHONDA RHIMES: I was like, I’m not walking out on stage until it’s done. So that was what was going on. It was great. I mean, I learned a lot about being a businesswoman doing this job in a way that I don’t think I ever expected.

Learning the Business

ALEX COOPER: Oh, I can’t even imagine. I mean, going from being a writer, starting on movies, going to TV, creating your own production company, owning this, the biggest night in television. It’s like, it forces you.

And I think as a woman, I’ve had experiences where I’m finding that most people don’t kind of want you to learn the ropes as much because then it’s easier to navigate around you like you are this creative talent. But also, if you continue to learn more about the industry, you’re kind of a threat, because then you can push your weight around.

SHONDA RHIMES: Exactly.

ALEX COOPER: And people don’t like that.

SHONDA RHIMES: Well, I think the thing that’s most important is what they don’t want you to realize is how much power you have. I always say power is not power if you don’t know you have it.

And I’ve known lots of women who, I’m like, you have so much power, but you believe that you’re powerless. So everybody else is controlling you. The minute you realize that, I was like, oh, they can’t actually make these shows without me. Even with Grey’s, I was naive enough to be like, I’m the only person who knows what happens, so they can’t fire me. So I acted like someone who couldn’t be fired. But I think those things are important to understand that.

ALEX COOPER: It is so important. And it’s like educating yourself in the moments of, and I’m sure you’ve had this where you are so good at something, but you can become better at that thing when you start to really listen to people around you and observing and you’re seeing, again, starting a production company, you’re like, that wasn’t your full background, but I’m assuming, and I probably know, but it has helped you so much.

Then continue to have autonomy and control in huge moments that when you’re doing these negotiations, you’re like, and my production company is going to be the one that is working on the show and I’m going to write it. And so you have more control.

SHONDA RHIMES: Right. You learn and grow. And by the way, I always think people are like, oh, you know, you’re this leader. I was terrible at being a leader when I started. But you have to look at it from the point of view of, this is a skill I need to learn in order to keep doing what I’m doing and to get better at it. So instead of just approaching it like, well, this is how I lead, I was like, so now I’ve got to figure out how to be really great at this.

Learning to Lead

ALEX COOPER: That’s really good advice. I’m taking that because I feel like when I started, I was just a creative, and then I started a production company, and my company and I would always share with people, I know that I’m so creative, and I want to just put my head into the creative that I’m, oh, I have to tell people what they’re doing every day and leading. And it wasn’t natural to me.

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s not natural, right?

ALEX COOPER: It was very like, wait, can someone else do this? I’m like, no, because I know where I want to head, the direction. But it kind of felt foreign for a while. But then you just get the reps and you acknowledge, I know I’m not the best at this.

SHONDA RHIMES: Once again, you say what you don’t know how to do, and then you make an effort to learn as much as you can and to surround yourself with people who really know what they’re doing.

ALEX COOPER: And I think people respect that. Though probably Shonda of you being in those beginning days, recognizing your strengths and your weaknesses, I think the worst thing is when a leader is just blindly saying, I’m leading the path. And you’re like, everyone’s like, we actually have a better idea. Can you listen to us?

SHONDA RHIMES: And people don’t respect you. I think that’s very clear. People can see that the emperor has no clothes and they don’t respect you. Be honest and say, I don’t know enough about this. It’s not going to take your power away, not if you’re good at what you do.

ALEX COOPER: And again, I think as a woman, sometimes we can think that it’s better to fake it because it’s like, oh, my God, I’m just happy to even be here. But again, grounding yourself in, no, no, no, no. You’re there for a reason. Everyone knows your strengths. It’s okay if you show some of your weaknesses, because then people are going to want to rise to the occasion for you in that way.

SHONDA RHIMES: And I want the caution, though, to be because, you know, usually they say men will say they can do any job and take it, and women will be like, I’m not quite qualified. It’s not that. It’s not that you’re not qualified.

I think you need to be very comfortable with who you are in your power, but also be enough of a leader to say, I can lead this. I can handle this. But I need someone to explain to me what this piece is versus, I’m not qualified, so maybe somebody else should take over. That’s not the point.

ALEX COOPER: No, I’m going to do it. Just help me get there.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

Handling Expectations

ALEX COOPER: When you are at the top of your industry, people obviously expect perfection. How does that, and how did that impact your creative process?

SHONDA RHIMES: That’s interesting. I think in the beginning, I was really, I mean, I was really lucky. We were just, you know, it was hit after hit after hit, and so that was great.

When we started moving into producing shows that other people wrote, it wasn’t as simple as that. You know what I mean? Our shows didn’t necessarily all take off. The way, you know, How to Get Away with Murder, which was created by Pete Nowalk and we produced took off. It wasn’t like that.

I was still really comfortable with, and I have this basketball player’s arrogance. I was always really comfortable with the shows that I created being fine and taking off and being good. But you want the other shows that you’re doing to do as well, and you want to be able to give other people that opportunity.

So to me, it’s really just, it was about figuring out how to sustain that and get better at it and be supportive about it. So every time something didn’t work, we really tried. My producer partner, Betsy and I really tried to learn why and what was going on with that and how to make it better.

The Creative Process

ALEX COOPER: I want to know a little bit more about your creative writing process. Where do you typically start in terms of story? Or does story come first? Or does character come first?

SHONDA RHIMES: Sometimes it’s a line of dialogue. Sometimes I’ll have a line of dialogue in my head.

ALEX COOPER: Give me an example.

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, God. It’s like, “It’s handled.” “It’s handled” was in my head before I knew what the show really was. You know, those kinds of things for Scandal.

So sometimes it’s that. Sometimes, and you know, yes, I’ll have met somebody, I’ll have an idea, an area. But you can say, I want to write a medical show. And that’s 15,000 different kinds of shows, for sure. So it’s what makes this the specific show that you’re writing.

So sometimes it’s a line of dialogue, sometimes it’s a character. For me, there was something about the intern life of Meredith Grey and those guys being brand new at what they were doing and also being women in a field that was dominated by men that felt really interesting to me.

And I remember what sealed the show for me was I met a medical resident who told me that it’s really hard to shave your legs in the bathrooms that they have, the showers that they have at the hospital. And for some reason, that made a whole picture in my head of what a woman’s life was like, trying to be a surgeon and trying to have a personal life at the same time.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, it’s so true. And you, oh, my God. The scenes that you were able to capture of the women getting ready for a date, and they’re like, Cristina’s throwing her hair up, and she’s putting on her bra, and she’s like, I’m going out. And then it’s like, get back in the office. And you’re like, oh, sh*t. It was so messy, but clearly so accurate.

It’s really interesting. And right now, currently in your life, where do you pull creative inspiration from?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my gosh. You know, it’s interesting. I was saying to somebody the other night, literally, I think just last night, I’m in a build phase, which happens. I’m either in a phase where I’m in the middle of a story and I’m writing it, and then I almost can’t talk to anybody, or I’ve just finished and we’re about to shoot something, and I’m in that super excited phase.

I’m in the build phase where I’m gathering ideas. I have ideas for maybe, I think, three different shows in my head right now. And that’s generally how it always is that I’m very excited about. And I’m juggling, trying to figure out which one’s going to emerge to the surface as the forefront one, the first, you know, the one to do first.

ALEX COOPER: Are you writing all these things down? Are they just concepts in your head right now?

SHONDA RHIMES: So my creative process is different than a lot of people’s, which is I never, I almost never put pen to paper until I’m ready to write the draft.

ALEX COOPER: What if you forget?

SHONDA RHIMES: No, it’s a lot of thinking. It’s a lot of thinking. And then I’ll spend a year thinking about something, and then two days writing a script versus some people I know who, the script is the thing that they’re working on all the way through. For me, it’s the world and the idea and the getting all the pieces in place mentally first.

ALEX COOPER: So you, I was about to say, because writer’s block. You don’t have writer’s block.

SHONDA RHIMES: I don’t believe in writer’s block.

ALEX COOPER: You don’t really write until you’re, you don’t believe in writer’s block. Talk to me about that.

SHONDA RHIMES: I feel like people talk about writer’s block and it’s one of those things that the minute you talk about it, it becomes real, right? “I have writer’s block” and now it’s like a thing. I’m like, no, there are days when you have stuff to say and there are days when you don’t. You know what I mean? And maybe there are days when you’re working out problems and you’re not. But I don’t believe in writer’s block. Like, you just can’t write at all.

ALEX COOPER: It’s like you’re clearly stuck on something that you’re trying to figure out. But you, girl, you’re a year in. You’ve got this math equation in your head, and then two days you’re writing the whole thing.

Women Need To Brag More

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. And then when I am stuck, I was always lucky because I would be working on Grey’s, and if I got stuck on Grey’s, I would turn around and I’d go work on Scandal. So the engine, the machine, the muscle is always being exercised at all times.

TV’s Highest Paid Showrunner

ALEX COOPER: In 2018, you were TV’s highest paid showrunner. What did that milestone mean to you?

SHONDA RHIMES: You know, it was a crazy moment because I remember I was supposed to be giving the speech for Elle Women in Hollywood. And I remember my lawyer telling me that fact and me thinking, I should talk about that in my speech because Ellen had sort of said she was the highest paid woman in television drama, and people kind of gave a, there was a little bit of backlash about that.

And I remember thinking, I should talk about this in my speech and being really nervous, calling my lawyer 10 to 15 times, being like, is this true? Is this really true? Are you sure it’s true? And him being like, what is wrong with you? And me being like, I just, I don’t know that I believe it.

And it was really hard for me to say it when I gave the speech, but I remember feeling like that was a time when I worked really hard to settle myself in this idea that, okay, now I have real power. So if I have this real power, what am I going to do with it?

ALEX COOPER: That’s so relatable because I was going to say crazy. I’m like, no, it’s not. It’s you sitting there being like, are you sure? No, come on. It was, Shonda, I don’t know how many times to break it to you, and yet you couldn’t. Was it because you couldn’t believe it? Was it imposter syndrome? Was it you don’t want to look like a fool on stage owning something that, what do you think it was?

SHONDA RHIMES: I don’t feel like it was imposter. It’s that, you know what happens when all your dreams come true? Absolutely nothing. Everything stays the same. Right? So you’re still, you, I’m still the person clipping coupons and thinking, maybe I should get that on sale and maybe I shouldn’t get too comfortable with these shows.

I’m still that same person, but now suddenly I’m surrounded by these different trappings. It’s about getting used to the trappings of power and what that means and being able to utilize them. I really do think that’s what it is.

ALEX COOPER: It’s a good point. It’s, you just said it the best I’ve ever heard anyone say it. Because all the time people are like, oh, my God, have you had your “I made it” moment? And I’m like, sure, but not really. It’s more just the living of it. I know. I feel like I’ve made what my dream was, but I’m not complacent now. And just, right, because nothing changed. I’m still Alex from Pennsylvania that loves to create, and I’m a nerd with that and whatever it be.

SHONDA RHIMES: Still looking at new ideas and getting excited about things. It’s not the trappings change. You don’t change. I feel like sometimes success makes you more of who you were, and that might be about it. You know, people who are anxious get more anxious. People who are not so nice get less nice, but it makes you more of who you are.

ALEX COOPER: It’s a good point, because when you’re grinding so hard for your dream, you’re going to tackle your way to get there, and you’re going to run through the door and you’re going to do whatever. And then once you’ve really got it, you’re like, okay, I did it. Here I am. You’re present. You’re sitting. You’re like, now I do feel probably the most connected to little girl.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes, exactly.

Men Brag and Women Hide

ALEX COOPER: It’s interesting. Okay. This is something we’ve kind of been talking about, which I love. You once said, and this quote is so good, “Men brag and women hide.”

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: Why do you think women have such a hard time celebrating their accomplishments?

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s really interesting to be in a room full of women or to sit and talk to other women and even giving compliments. Women can’t take compliments. I’ve worked really hard at that. But it’s really, women cannot take compliments.

Someone will say to you, you’re the most powerful podcaster out there right now. And look at the look on your face. You don’t want to go, thank you. Right? You think to yourself, oh, well, you know. Right. And you try to make it okay for other people because you’re afraid that if who you are, if you like yourself too much, people are going to think ill of you. Which is so interesting.

ALEX COOPER: It’s almost like the fear is, will people think I’m arrogant?

SHONDA RHIMES: Right? It’s, who does she think she is? And it’s, well, who do you think you are? You should think you’re the most powerful woman in podcasting right now. That’s not an insult. That’s not a problem. That’s not something to be ashamed of. You’re, yeah, I accomplished that. That’s okay.

Women have a really hard time with it. Men do not. Men who have accomplished almost nothing are still bragging about stuff that isn’t even an accomplishment. It’s true. It happens all the time.

ALEX COOPER: It’s so true. It’s, and I think it’s hard because I don’t know if you’ve experienced this, but I feel like a lot of times, which makes me sad, is when one woman is having such success and if she leans in at all. At least now with the day and age of social media, there is a lot of tearing down from other women of, that’s not true, blah, blah. And I don’t know if it’s because there is an insecurity and there’s projection going on, whatever it be, but it’s, it sucks.

SHONDA RHIMES: I have this theory that inherently, and this is, I’m just kidding, I feel like women have been raised to really hate themselves. We’ve been raised to sort of be, you need to be nicer, you need to be quieter, you need to be sweeter. You need to be, you need to adjust yourself so that other people want to accept you.

So women have been raised to hate themselves, and it’s really hard to watch another woman be completely comfortable in that skin. You’re like, well, wait a minute. That doesn’t feel right. And I don’t think it’s malicious. And I don’t think that anybody thought, said to themselves, we’re going to put our foot on the neck of girls. But I do think women have been raised in a world in which society has all of these rules that make you feel like, how dare you? You know, it’s so true.

ALEX COOPER: It’s so true. It’s, it’s uncomfortable for other women to see another woman confident. Because what it really is, is, f*, I want to get there.

SHONDA RHIMES: Well, you’re uncomfortable, and it’s uncomfortable to be that confident woman. It really is. You have to really reach a place where you’re like, I really don’t care what other people think.

Downplaying Success

ALEX COOPER: What is a time in your career where you downplayed your own success to try to make people feel comfortable?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I will say that I am really lucky. I was raised in a family where, the girl, there’s four girls, we kind of got in trouble if we were ever, oh, no, not me. Poor me. My mother would be like, what’s wrong with you? My dad would be like, what are you thinking?

So we were raised really in a way that I find a lot of women weren’t. However, I still found myself being in a room thinking, well, I want everybody to like me. I don’t want anybody to think that I think so well of myself. It’s interesting. It’s hard to take a compliment.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, I can imagine. For you, it’s, you are having such success. You’re so talented. You’re now running these rooms. People, you said, there’s hundreds of people in a room waiting for your commands of, all right, we’re about to make the show. We’re doing this thing.

And then again, a man probably wouldn’t feel this way with you. You’re like, okay, wait. But I don’t want to come off like I’m too bossy or this. I do want people to look at me and like me. And there’s just a double standard for women. So we have to kind of placate the power dynamics and the boundaries and all the things to make people be like, no, but she’s really nice.

That, you know, if you walked in, you’re like, this is what we’re doing today. Everyone needs to be on the top of their game, and let’s get this thing done. What a bitch.

SHONDA RHIMES: Well, okay, so I watched your documentary, and you literally say in there, I don’t want anybody to think I’m being a bitch. If I say. And I’m like, let’s all just be the bitch. Be the bitch. Because the reality of it is, is everybody’s going to have their opinion of you anyway.

And if you are not being cruel to other people, and if you are, I’m always, how do I make this a warm, welcoming place for other women to feel like they can come up and be somebody? Then in order for that to happen, I have to make a way in this world in order for those opportunities to exist. So be the bitch.

The Power of Being Direct

ALEX COOPER: Be the bitch. Because if there’s 10 people in the room, what I have found recently as I’m leaning into not being an actual bitch, but being more of that, I’m just going to say it how it is, because why can my husband say the same thing? And everyone’s like, I’m excited to work for him. And if I say it, people are like, oh, my God, is she in a bad mood today? Me, mom, I just said to do your job right.

What I found, though, is a lot of people in the room will actually start to respect you more. And there’s going to be a couple of the stragglers that are like, she’s being a bitch. Because it’s projection, and they’re taking something wrong, whatever it is. But people like someone that is direct and honest and gives you the role that you need to do your job with.

SHONDA RHIMES: More people respond to that because it’s not this amorphous thing where they’re trying to figure out what you meant. And here’s my thing. Never be cruel, never be mean, never be rude, never belittle. But be direct and be strong about what you’re saying. And mean it. There’s no reason to apologize for being good at your job. For me, that’s a big deal.

ALEX COOPER: Shonda, this is the pep talk we needed to say. The girls are literally taking notes, watching this throughout work right now, being like, I’m going to go get that raise from my boss or I’m going to go advocate for myself. And that, I think, is so healthy to remind women you can speak up for yourself, and that does not make you a bad person at all.

Okay, let’s talk about your book.

The Year of Yes: 10th Anniversary

ALEX COOPER: The year of yes, 10th anniversary. First of all, congratulations. That’s really incredible. Can you tell anyone who’s not familiar how did this initially come to be?

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay, so in 2014, I decided that I was going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.

ALEX COOPER: Why?

SHONDA RHIMES: Well, if you knew me before 2014, I was wildly shy, to the point of full anxiety attack. Couldn’t speak in public. I was very closed off and shut down. I went almost nowhere. I did almost nothing. I had this incredible success of these television shows. My characters were living these amazing, full, rich, exciting lives. And I was not. I was at home, living in my imagination.

And so one day, one of my sisters said to me, you never say yes to anything. I’d been given all these invitations. I would say no. So I was like, okay, I’m going to spend a year saying yes to everything that scares me. And I did. And I ended up writing a memoir about it called Year of Yes.

And so now, 10 years later, I sort of went back and looked and said, how has my life changed? Because it’s completely different than it was 10 years ago. I’m such a different person. I think I almost might be unrecognizable in every way. And so I really wanted to look at it 10 years later to see who am I now? What have my yeses been lately? What has fallen off? What’s better, what’s worse? How does this keep going?

Overcoming Discomfort

ALEX COOPER: It’s really inspiring because I think that’s a very relatable thing. You’re the one holding yourself back from experiencing these beautiful, big moments that you could enjoy, and yet you’re almost hurting yourself by being your worst enemy.

How, though, once you got through this year of yes, obviously that’s so fun. But for someone listening, what kept you going with the yes, though? Because I’m assuming a lot of moments were uncomfortable.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Talk to me about a yes you said that you were uncomfortable to. And then you left, and you’re like, oh, actually, it wasn’t as bad.

SHONDA RHIMES: I mean, it was almost everything. The first thing I did was give a commencement speech. That was my first yes. I was going to give a commencement speech to 10,000 people. So there are yeses that are just moments.

But then there was the yes that I said to my body. I was 150 pounds heavier when I wrote this book. And it was because I had been, my body’s just a container for my brain. I’m not thinking of myself in this physical way at all. I had sort of shut myself off from the world, and I was like, okay, now I need to say yes to taking care of myself. I feel terrible all the time. So it was about that.

It was saying yes to difficult conversations. I was a person who would run from any difficult conversation as far as I possibly could. And now I’m a person who’s like, let’s just plow right in. Because the road to peace is through there.

ALEX COOPER: And it’s so real to be once you start practicing something, it’s going to first feel so uncomfortable, and you’re like, I don’t want to do this. And then slowly, the second time you do it again gets a little easier, and then again and again. And so I think that’s great advice for young women listening is the hardest part is just jumping into it.

SHONDA RHIMES: The very act of doing the thing that you’re afraid of undoes the fear. And that is such a freeing feeling to realize. The worst thing that can happen is that it doesn’t go well, but then it’s already happened, and that’s the worst thing.

ALEX COOPER: And you’ll handle it.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. And you’ll handle it.

When Relationships Change

ALEX COOPER: In your book, you say, “Unhappy people do not like it when a fellow unhappy person becomes happy.” How did your relationships start to change once you did this year of yes?

SHONDA RHIMES: That was really profound. Because you don’t expect to shed people. I was not a person who ever thought, I’m very loyal. The people in my life are the people in my life. I did not expect to shed people.

But when you begin to fundamentally change who you are, your idea of yourself, how you want to live anything, even when you begin to have the whisper of the idea that I might be valuable, people who are not used to that feeling, people who are comfortable with you in the role that you were in, have a really hard time with it.

And a lot of times, there’s an adjustment in general, even for the people who are happy for you, but the people who are very invested in the world that they’re in. We’re all invested in the world sucks, this is this, I’ll never get this, I’m bitter about this, let’s talk trash about these people. When you stop being able to do that with them, it’s really threatening and really upsetting.

And I understand it because I’d watched it happen to other people I know, and I’ve been them. How dare they? But when you start to change, you realize how many people are not interested in you having a different definition of yourself.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, I feel like that’s very relatable. And I feel like it can also then become, for a period of time, a little alienating. Right?

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes. Lonely.

ALEX COOPER: You’ve created your ecosystem. You have your habits. Like you said, whether you’re gossiping or talking sh*t or you’re not feeling good about yourself. Someone close to me recently just went through this, where she started to have a more positive outlook. And a friend basically couldn’t be there for her when she just had a successful moment. And you’re like, we’ve both been down and I finally got something. Aren’t you excited? And it’s like, no, I want you to stay down with me.

SHONDA RHIMES: I have friends who were amazing when things were terrible. They were right there. And I was like, these people will be with me the rest of my life. When things were not terrible, those people were pissed. And it was startling to discover that. And also really, really painful, because you’re losing people that you love.

And I was not intending to lose a single person from my life. So the idea that people would fall away of their own accord because they weren’t interested or because you finally had to say this isn’t working. It’s really hard to break up with a friend.

ALEX COOPER: It’s excruciating. But also, I’m sure once you got a little bit farther away from it, then in hindsight you start to realize the ecosystem in which you were living and you’re like, oh, that’s how toxic it was. And I was so immersed in it that I was incapable of fully recognizing how negative it was.

SHONDA RHIMES: You never can recognize. You’re down in the muck and that’s all you know. And that feels really comfortable. And to peek your head up out of that is dangerous almost.

ALEX COOPER: And I think just for people listening, if you’re in that situation where you’re like, my friends can never be happy for me. And I do want to kind of change, whether it’s jobs or relationships, whatever it be, in the moment, as isolating as it can feel. I feel like what we’re talking about here is the short term discomfort. Long term, you are going to be happier with yourself, that although you lost friends, there are new people in your life that you can meet, that can meet you where you’re at, which is in a positive capacity and not so negative.

SHONDA RHIMES: And give your original friends who are having a hard time, give them some grace for a while, because you are becoming a whole different person that they don’t know. So for some friends, there was a space in time when they were like, what the hell’s happening? But then our friendships became even stronger. But there were some people who just, it wasn’t, they weren’t ready. They weren’t ready for me to be different, and they weren’t ready to look at the world in a different way.

Embracing Failure

ALEX COOPER: Something I also loved about your book was how you wrote that sometimes saying yes to opportunities means saying yes to failures. What is the biggest lesson that you’ve learned from your failures throughout your career?

SHONDA RHIMES: I mean, I always try to look at failures not as total failures, but lessons learned in a great way. But I also feel like there’s nothing wrong with letting a failure happen if it’s a failure. The shame that people seem to want to feel, they don’t want anybody to know that this happened or I don’t want to ever tell that story.

The failures that you have are the failures that you had. And they basically are part of what made me where I am right now. So I try to embrace them and know that I really can live through them. They happened.

Rethinking Marriage

ALEX COOPER: One thing that you have been clear you’re not interested in saying yes to is the idea of marriage. When did you first realize this?

SHONDA RHIMES: And I don’t know if that’s true anymore. Isn’t that interesting? I don’t know if that’s true anymore.

ALEX COOPER: Talk to me.

On Marriage and Independence

SHONDA RHIMES: So I’d never been a person who thought about getting married. I was a person who always knew I was going to be a mom. That was always part of my plan. Marriage never really entered into it. And my parents have this amazing, romantic, beautiful marriage. They’ve been married forever. And so I have this great example of what a great marriage is. But I was always like, meh. Eh.

I really value being independent. I really value being on my own. I tried the whole getting engaged thing and almost killed myself trying to pretend that I was somebody who wanted to get married and it just wasn’t me. I was like, this is not. I feel suffocated.

ALEX COOPER: I think that is an extremely relatable feeling that maybe people don’t talk about. I remember I had shared that where I grew up, I had a similar situation with the image of my parents and what they represented. I was like, I’ve never seen two people so good. And as a partnership and in love. So what’s wrong with me that I don’t crave that at all? And I had zero interest in getting married. I was like, I am an independent. I’m all these things which I think is beautiful to know within yourself and not put pressure on.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: But then what changed? So now you’re kind of like, well.

SHONDA RHIMES: So now I feel like, you know, I have these girls who are much older. My youngest daughter is 12 at this point. So what really got me the first time was, you get engaged and everybody is so happy for you. People were more happy for me that I had a man who wanted to marry me than they were about my career, my shows, my children. Combined. Combined. I was like, I have a frickin’ Peabody Award. Nobody cared. They’re like, “you have a man who wants to marry you.”

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, you guys.

SHONDA RHIMES: No, it felt really threatening. I think about this now. It felt really threatening to my whole identity that that’s where people were going to see my value. And now, I think I’m, that’s because I wasn’t necessarily comfortable in my own skin, probably.

I very much know who I am now. I know who I am. I’m very comfortable in my skin. I’m very comfortable with what I’ve accomplished, what I haven’t accomplished, who I am as a woman. Now I’m completely comfortable with the idea that I could meet somebody and spend the rest of my life with somebody and marry them. Because I’m not worried that who I am is going to be taken away from me or that I’m going to have to compromise pieces of my career or what I’ve accomplished or what I want it to be.

Women Can Change Their Minds

ALEX COOPER: That’s also beautiful because what a concept that women can change their minds.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: And we should let them. And it’s okay if one moment you say you don’t want something and now you could potentially want it.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. And I’m not saying, oh, I want to get married, but I’m not. I’m no longer saying I never want to get married. I’m open.

ALEX COOPER: Have you struggled in previous relationships with men being intimidated by your success?

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: That’s like, that’s the whole thing.

SHONDA RHIMES: That’s the whole thing.

ALEX COOPER: That’s the name of the game.

SHONDA RHIMES: That’s the whole game.

ALEX COOPER: It is. And then it’s really hard to stay one. Obviously, the surface level is just like being attracted to someone that’s intimidated by your success. But the deeper thing, again, is the independence being threatened. But also, what’s the point of having a partner in your life that’s not an actual partner, that’s not rooting for you and wanting you to succeed, and you’re downplaying yourself. You’re coming home and you’re not sharing certain things because you’re like, oh, he’ll.

SHONDA RHIMES: Feel insecure, but also you’re actively in a space where they’re not in the headspace of feeling good about themselves. So you feel like you’re actively diminishing somebody else. I’m not interested in actively making a man feel diminished by who, by who I am and by who he is.

ALEX COOPER: And then by you then also being aware of that, you’re also diminishing yourself.

SHONDA RHIMES: You’re making yourself smaller. It’s that Christina Yang thing of letting go of pieces of yourself so that somebody else can feel good about who they are.

ALEX COOPER: It all comes back to Christina. It does, doesn’t it?

SHONDA RHIMES: It really does.

Breaking Off the Engagement

ALEX COOPER: One of the quotes from your book was, “the wedding was right there. The amazing guy was right there. The happy was right there, and I didn’t want it.” Once you broke off this engagement, how did you feel?

SHONDA RHIMES: The terrible thing is, and I say this in the book, I felt so good. I felt so relieved. I felt like this huge weight had been lifted from me, which is awful because A, another person gets hurt. But B, you know, it was a, what it should have been a wonderful thing. But what tells you that it wasn’t was how free I felt and how, I think I was really afraid of what this was going to be on top of everything else. I was approaching this with some level of dread of what I was going to be letting go of and giving up to be in this relationship.

ALEX COOPER: And then you felt free once you ended it?

SHONDA RHIMES: I felt so good.

Life with Three Daughters

ALEX COOPER: Let’s talk about your family. You have three daughters.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: What is a typical night at home like for you guys?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. So I have a 23 year old who lives in London, so she’s living her best London life right now.

ALEX COOPER: I am so jealous.

SHONDA RHIMES: I know.

ALEX COOPER: Do you visit her often or?

SHONDA RHIMES: I do, because, you know, that’s where Bridgerton is. So I get to go over, which is wonderful. But for me, a typical night at home, it’s like me and my daughters, we have dinner, we hang out, we go and watch the dogs run around.

ALEX COOPER: Do they watch your shows?

SHONDA RHIMES: No. My 23 year old, I don’t think has ever watched any of my shows.

ALEX COOPER: Not even Grey’s? Because she was.

SHONDA RHIMES: No. She watched “How to Get Away with Murder” because I didn’t make that. My second daughter, who’s 13, Shonda. I know.

ALEX COOPER: I feel like everyone comes here and is like, you have no idea how much your kids will humble you. I don’t have kids.

SHONDA RHIMES: And I’m like, they’re just not impressed at all. They don’t give a crap. They’re not impressed. So my 13 year old, she started watching Grey’s Anatomy. And I was like, oh, my God, this is happening. And I had been like, you can’t watch it. My mom was like, yes, she can. So I was like, your grandma said you can watch it.

She watched eight or nine episodes. And then Christina had an ectopic pregnancy. And she was furious. She was like, I didn’t understand this was coming. I didn’t see this was coming. I think this is too old for me. And she turned it off.

ALEX COOPER: Not her being able to walk down, knock on the door and be like, hey, mom, what is this? Why did you write this? And you’re like, listen, sweetie. She’s like, I’m done with you.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah. She was like, no, no. And then my youngest daughter, you know, because the entry age for Grey’s, it’s 11 or 12 years old. I know when young kids have started watching Grey’s because I can see their faces look at me differently. They know who I am.

So my youngest daughter, she and her little seventh grade friends have, and this is so insulting, but also so great, have made a pact that none of them are ever going to watch Grey’s Anatomy because nobody wants to know what Beckett’s mother has to say about life, love, or anything else.

ALEX COOPER: Shonda. Oh, my God. I know.

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, they literally have a pact, none of us are going to watch it. And I was like, fine, you little haters. But it’s also fantastic. I feel like my children’s self esteem is clearly intact when they.

ALEX COOPER: Are not good, they’re good. That’s so funny, because I remember when I interviewed Ellen, her daughter came because she was a fan of the show. And Stella was like, I was like, so did you watch? You know. And she goes, yeah, but I’ll be honest, I kind of stopped after McDreamy was gone. And I was like, okay, okay. And Ellen’s literally like, my life. Kids will just be like, let me humble you right now, mom.

SHONDA RHIMES: Harper would always be like, so do you think that that’s a great show? My favorite thing about Harper was when she was younger, she would be like, you know Julie Plec, who does the vampire? She was like, “Julie Plec is amazing, mom. Julie Plec is ever.” And I was like, so basically my whole life is if only my daughter thought about me the way she thinks about Julie Plec.

ALEX COOPER: You know what you need to do? You need to go under an alias for the first season of something and be like, did you hear about this new show? Your daughters sit down. They’re like, this is the best show ever. And then you’re like, that was me. That was me. That’s amazing.

What Her Daughters Have Taught Her

ALEX COOPER: What is something that your daughters have taught you?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. Incredible amounts of patience. Incredible amounts of patience. I think that that is very true. But also, you meet people where they are for real. They do not come out, and then you mold them. They really come out as the people they are. And your job is to make them more of that person, a better version of that person.

And that is really hard as a mom and as a perfectionist and as a person who is very type A. It’s really about, okay, so she’s this kind of kid. How do I embrace that and then help her be that kind of kid?

ALEX COOPER: That’s beautiful. Yeah. It’s probably really good for you, right?

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s really good for me. I need a. It’s so freaking hard.

ALEX COOPER: No one else could have done it to you.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, but your children. Exactly.

Choosing to Start a Family

ALEX COOPER: I think a lot of women will appreciate this conversation of, you chose to start a family. You didn’t have a partner, obviously. How did you decide? Three kids.

SHONDA RHIMES: Okay, this is interesting because I’ve talked to other women about this. You know, 9/11 happened, and I was like, this was really a turning point for me. I was like, the world’s going to end and I will have never done the one thing I wanted to do, which is to have a kid.

So I became a mom at the same time that Grey’s Anatomy came out. And that was, as a working mother, that was the hardest, most devastating, most amazing situation to be in the middle of. My daughter grew up thinking I worked in a hospital. She did, because that’s where she was all the time.

And so then, 10 years on, I thought, okay, so I’ve had one daughter and 37 actors, but she doesn’t have any siblings. And so then I was, it was middle of Scandal, and I was like, I’m going to have two more kids. And that was a plan. I was like, if I’m going to have more kids, I’m not going to have kids who are another only, you know, in that sense of 10 year gap. I’m going to have two kids in close succession to one another so that they have each other.

It’s beautiful. It is. Except they’re so different from each other. It doesn’t even matter. They’re so different from each other.

ALEX COOPER: The plan actually backfired because it’s very, very different.

SHONDA RHIMES: They’re all in their own world.

ALEX COOPER: I know you’ve kind of said that your family is very traditional, and they had a lot of questions about this to you. What conversations did you need to have with them about this decision?

Family and Adoption

SHONDA RHIMES: You know, what’s wonderful is my parents are very get on board. But they had a lot of questions about adoption. They had a lot of questions about what that was going to mean and how that was going to be. Although in my family, it sort of never mattered how you came into the family. You’re just part of the family.

Surrogacy brought up a lot of questions for my family. That just felt… I mean, I don’t think I’ve… To this day, I still haven’t had the sperm donor conversation with my father. Do you know what I mean? Those conversations. But that stuff was a big deal. How is this going to happen? I think that was a big deal.

But for me, what’s amazing is the minute there’s a baby, my whole family is in love. And our family is really great in that way. We’re a very big, loud, boisterous family who everybody is super embraced.

ALEX COOPER: I think it’s beautiful, too. Everyone has such a different journey to building whatever their version of a family is. Some people don’t want kids. Some people want kids. Some people are doing it different ways.

And again, I think as women, we can feel shame from other people if we’re not doing it the way that traditionally we’ve been taught that we should do it. And it’s such a great statement that you just made of, and then once it happens, it’s like, look how beautiful this is.

SHONDA RHIMES: For a little while, I think I felt like I had to justify it. You know what I mean? I felt like I had to sort of… I don’t even know. I felt like I had to justify it for people. And that’s ridiculous.

At a certain point, I was like, however I decide, you know, it’s like, nobody puts in the paper, “so and so had a baby via C section.” Nobody says, “this is their C section child.” So how my children came into my family is not the issue.

ALEX COOPER: And none of your business. Yeah, it’s a really good point again, but it goes back to… This is a complete different comparison. But we were talking about earlier. It’s like the same thing was happening on the set of Scandal or Grey’s. But when it’s a different person doing the act…

SHONDA RHIMES: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: There’s a different light and fixation on it. And so people can see it differently, right?

SHONDA RHIMES: Exactly.

Balancing Success and Failure

ALEX COOPER: It’s like, guys, worry about your own damn selves. In a speech, you said, “Whenever you see me somewhere succeeding in one area of my life, that almost certainly means that I am failing in another.” How have you come to terms with knowing that you can only do so much at once?

SHONDA RHIMES: I think the relief was realizing that you can only do so much at once. I mean, I think that the struggle and the way we’re told, “lean in” or “you can have it all,” or all these things, it’s such bullsh*t.

But we’re so conditioned to feel like I’m supposed to be fully present at work all the time, and then I’m supposed to be the most amazing mom all the time. It does not work that way. I am a mother because that is who I am. You know, sometimes mother is not what I do. Sometimes it’s just who I am.

And my job is amazing. But there are times when I’m going to have to say, okay, I let that slide because my kids needed me. And that is okay. I think when we tell ourselves it’s not okay and we put all this pressure on ourselves to either you’re perfect in one or you’re perfect in the other. You’re trying to be perfect in both. That’s when you fail because you’re never… That’s a zero sum game. It’s never going to happen. You’re never going to feel amazing at both. It’s always going to be a little bit shaky. So let it be shaky.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, it’s helpful to hear that because I agree. I think everyone’s like, you know, you can’t do it all, but then you kind of are. So, no, I’m going to try. And it’s like, sometimes you really do have to put your eggs in one basket and really double down and focus on that.

And it doesn’t almost mean that you’re not… You’re abandoning the other things in your life. You’re just recognizing right now the priority is right here. And I’m still going to show up in this area, but I’m not going to be 100%, and that’s okay.

SHONDA RHIMES: It’s not that you can’t do it all. It’s that you can’t do it all at once. So for me, I’m always like, okay, so maybe sometimes this is going to be over here, down a little bit more, and this is going to be more up. But I’m still doing it all in a way that makes me feel less guilty and embracing the idea that you are failing at something else.

People used to be like, “How can you say that?” It made me feel so much better to think, okay, I’m failing at work right now. That’s okay. Give myself that permission. Made it so much easier.

ALEX COOPER: Have you felt like you’re failing at work ever in your life?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my God, all the time.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, that makes me feel better. That makes me feel better.

Legacy and Blazing Trails

ALEX COOPER: You’ve revolutionized TV in so many ways, and you have paved the way for other women in this field and in other fields. What do you ultimately hope your legacy is?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I always really try to avoid the concept of legacy. I mean, I hope that there is space for women to feel like there are still trails to be blazed, but that the blazing of the trails doesn’t mean that you’re blazing them alone anymore.

Because I think being a woman who’s done something that necessarily hadn’t been done by other people, it’s a lonely road. You’re making that path happen a lot of the time. And so I feel like I want women to feel like there’s all this to be accomplished, but that not necessarily… Hopefully I’ve left a space where there’s enough room that more women are doing it. Does that make sense?

ALEX COOPER: It absolutely makes sense. Outside of your career, what do you wish more people knew about you?

The Golf Obsession

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, my God. Right now, I’m just obsessed with golf, so it’s really weird.

ALEX COOPER: What?

SHONDA RHIMES: I know, right? I have a whole chapter in the book about it.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, what?

SHONDA RHIMES: I’ve become this weird, obsessed golfer.

ALEX COOPER: I love this for you.

SHONDA RHIMES: I had never had a hobby. I mean, I had hobbies, then I had my shows, then I didn’t have any hobbies for 20 years. And so I moved to Connecticut and I took up a hobby.

ALEX COOPER: You’re hitting the country clubs, you’re swinging, you’re golfing. You’re getting birdies. Wait, this is amazing, because it does kind of… I’m not a good golfer, but I’ve gone a couple times. I love things that I actually cannot think of other things while I’m doing it.

SHONDA RHIMES: I can’t think of other things. It’s something that I’m definitely… It’s really interesting to be somebody who’s really good at a thing and then do something that you’re terrible at. And it’s all about making yourself good at it.

I also like the fact that… And I sort of revel in this idea that a country club is not a space that was made for me. Nobody was thinking, “This black lady’s going to be at a country club.” It’s not a thing. So I kind of love this idea of occupying these spaces that necessarily weren’t made for us. And we’re sort of taking them over.

I have these women I golf with, and we’re loud, and we’re rowdy. And we’re not like lady golfers. We’re women who golf. And it’s a lot of fun.

ALEX COOPER: I can’t imagine being on a golf cart and turning… Is that Shonda Rhimes? You’re vibing? You’ve got the speakers going.

SHONDA RHIMES: Yeah, baby. Exactly. And we’re having a really good time doing it.

ALEX COOPER: That’s incredible.

SHONDA RHIMES: But it also allows me, for the first time, to think of myself as… And my sister laughs at this every time. But an athlete. I’m like, I’m an athlete. There’s an athlete inside me, and it’s coming out.

What’s Next

ALEX COOPER: Oh, I love this for you. Okay, looking to the future, last question. What is something you’re really excited about?

SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I have to… And this is going to be vague, and it’s not… I don’t mean it to be vague. I’m really excited about whatever’s next because I am in this percolation phase where I’m trying to figure out what my next story is.

And it’s been a while since I’ve told a brand new, fresh story, so I’m really excited for that moment. I’m really excited to dig back in, roll my sleeves up, and get back into a show.

ALEX COOPER: I am beyond excited. I’m jealous that I can’t go in that brain of yours. I’m staring at your forehead. I’m like, what is she thinking? What’s going on in there? It’s so exciting. You’re so talented. You’ve been in our homes for now decades, and I just feel like this next era for you. I’m very excited to see what you come up with, because I know we’re all going to love it.

But if anything, I’m now… You’ve done so much that I can’t wait to see what avenue you choose in terms of theme and story and characters. There’s still so much to be done. And I’m happy that you’re going to come back to us. Love it.

Shonda Rhimes. This was everything I could have imagined and more. I feel so stimulated from this conversation. I feel motivated. So thank you for giving me your time. I know you’re very busy, and it was an honor to interview you.

SHONDA RHIMES: This is fantastic. This is a great conversation.

ALEX COOPER: It was so…

SHONDA RHIMES: And I understand… You’re an amazing interviewer. So truly, I’ve had some interviews. This was amazing and really fun conversation and relaxed and lovely. So thank you so much.

ALEX COOPER: Thank you for coming.

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