Tucker Carlson Show: w/ Joe Spector on the Crisis of Pet Care Costs (Transcript)

You suggested there’s an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots.

JOE SPECTOR: It’s annual exams, but they’ll sell you more stuff, too. So they’ll say, you know what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning. And so we need to put him under anesthesia. And that’s going to be a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which—

TUCKER CARLSON: $5,000?

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ve had a lot of dogs. Dozens and dozens of dogs. I’ve got five at my house right now, and I don’t think I’ve ever had a dog’s teeth cleaned.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: And my dogs live a long time.

JOE SPECTOR: Exactly, exactly. And the thing is, you’re there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what’s best for your pet. But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you, and that’s going to be one of them. And you feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

JOE SPECTOR: But it’s—that’s a lot of money. I mean, most people don’t have $5,000 lying around the house.

TUCKER CARLSON: Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean, dogs die. People die under anesthesia. You’re suspending life in a living thing.

JOE SPECTOR: Totally. Yeah. So I think what happens is it’s the list of services that they’ll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that you don’t care about your dog if you don’t buy from this menu.

TUCKER CARLSON: There’s so much emotional leverage. People are so intense about their animals.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not in my house. We have, you know, critical distance. You know, you do anything, you’d sell your car. I mean, I would. And so they have a lot of power when they’re upselling.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes, totally.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do you—it seems like the incentives would produce actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don’t need, and that might be counterproductive.

JOE SPECTOR: Well, I think what happens is people just stop going to the vet at all. I mean, that’s what we’ve seen is that there’s just a whole—there’s tens of millions of dogs that never go to the veterinarian. At Dutch, 50% don’t go to the vet. Haven’t been to the vet in years. And it’s because they don’t want to—they don’t want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s amazing. What about all the shots? There are a lot of shots, and they’re very expensive.

JOE SPECTOR: Definitely there’s vaccines. But even vaccines—I mean, as we have at Dutch, try to kind of—so telemedicine can do vaccines, but there’s definitely lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person, it’ll cost you $150 to $200 for the—for a shot, yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would it cost 200 bucks for a shot?

JOE SPECTOR: Well, they’ll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I have to pay for staff. I mean, they’ll say there’s all this upkeep that the shot includes, but it’s baloney that goes back to private equity, raising prices and knowing the people, there’s some people who will still pay for it.

The Changing Face of Veterinary Medicine

TUCKER CARLSON: So the profile of the vets that I’ve dealt with in the past 20 years have really, really changed. It’s a female industry now.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Which I think is good. Just to be honest, I feel like they’re really a lot of dog lovers. Not all. You get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: And so what do they think of all of this?

JOE SPECTOR: So what’s interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and telemedicine, we get hundreds of applications from people who want to—want to do telemedicine. And actually to this point that it’s female, telemedicine allows them to have a work from home, flexible schedule, which they love.

The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house.

TUCKER CARLSON: What?

The AVMA’s Campaign Against Telemedicine

JOE SPECTOR: It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine to death. And it’s because it’s again, it’s comprised of these self-serving, financially interested individuals who run the organization, but they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever.

TUCKER CARLSON: Why would the FBI show up at a vet’s house?

JOE SPECTOR: What they’ll say—and again, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this. It’s just so insane. They will say that the federal law requires—it requires you to have a physical exam no matter what. No matter if it’s an opinion, it’s a rash, it’s a quick question.

They’ll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn’t. But in every conference, in every newsletter, they’ll say, “Oh, well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical exam. So if you violate this, you might go to jail.” That’s what they’ll say at every conference for years now.

And they’ll vilify me and Dutch and they’ll say, “This guy is going to hurt your dog if there’s telemedicine. Millions of dogs will die” is the headline.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m starting to laugh. I mean, that’s obviously not true. Emotional blackmail.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. So one of the main—

TUCKER CARLSON: “Buy this book or we’ll shoot this dog.” I mean, it really—yeah. Millions of dogs would die. Did it really say that?

The Real Victims: Abandoned Pets

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they’ll say at a conference. What I’ve been doing now is I’ve been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter organizations because they’re the ones that get the brunt of it. Because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can’t care for them.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because they can’t afford veterinary care.

JOE SPECTOR: Because they can’t afford veterinary care. Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Come on.

JOE SPECTOR: I’m telling you, people abandon their dogs. Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, man.

JOE SPECTOR: I know. It gives me chills. It f*ing sucks.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

The Fight for Veterinary Telemedicine at the State Level

JOE SPECTOR: So the only way this can change is at the state level. And we’ve been working. So in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine and all it does is. All the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision.

TUCKER CARLSON: But may I just ask a foundational question? Why is the state involved in what kind of medical care you give your dog?

JOE SPECTOR: Just because healthcare is regulated at the state level.

TUCKER CARLSON: This is veterinary care.

JOE SPECTOR: And that. I mean, and then.

TUCKER CARLSON: But you have dominion over your dog. I mean, right. It’s so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog, who sleeps in your bed, who’s your dog, than you do. Like, what is that?

JOE SPECTOR: That’s the system we live in. But actually, I will tell you this. Most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, they’re most of them are completely on board. They don’t. They’re like, we have human healthcare. And this, a lot of them will say, I didn’t even know this was an issue. This is dumb.

So where it doesn’t work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they’ve lined a politician’s pocket, then that’s where we will have trouble in those states.

TUCKER CARLSON: Taking money from the veterinary lobby. Yeah, there are a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a couple of them. But there are so many.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah.

The AVMA’s Role in Blocking Telemedicine

TUCKER CARLSON: So, can you just quickly tell me how that works? So the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. Medical association.

TUCKER CARLSON: Medical association. And why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals?

JOE SPECTOR: There’s one reason that they’ll say. And then there’s one reason that they’ll say behind closed doors. So what they’ll say in public is that they’ll say telemedicine is going to harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying.

But what they’ll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it’s purely financial. They think that it’s an either or choice, that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brick and mortar business is going to die. That’s not true.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, so they’re just preserving the monopoly.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, they’re preserving the monopoly.

TUCKER CARLSON: Just like always. Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes, exactly.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s true in tech. It’s true in manufacturing. It’s true in the nicotine business. It’s true in veterinary care. Wow, I should have known that.

JOE SPECTOR: Duh.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right? Millions of dogs will die.

JOE SPECTOR: Who has died? No one.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, so if people aren’t even bringing their dogs to the vet because it’s too expensive, how is that good?

JOE SPECTOR: Exactly. Exactly. Dogs are getting zero care. And you will have these people say that they will prefer that. Then they’ll prefer the status quo. The industry association will say they’ll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine.

And by the way, it’s not an either or choice. It’s not like, oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. You know, we have, again, human healthcare. We still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have an issue at night, we don’t have to go.

TUCKER CARLSON: If you’ve got porcupine quills in your dog’s throat or, you know, cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go to a surgeon.

JOE SPECTOR: That’s right. But if he has a rash and you just want to know, what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show again, the dog’s in the comfort of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their paw.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

JOE SPECTOR: Why do you have to drag that animal?

The Benefits of At-Home Veterinary Care

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, and that’s right. And for example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time. A lot. And I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they’re not. And every year I have to take the quills out, which takes four hours.

But I do it myself because, well, because I know how. But also because my dogs don’t like to go to the vet at all. And it smells like death. And they can smell it.

JOE SPECTOR: Yep. Mind you, too, dogs are euthanized there.

TUCKER CARLSON: They know that. And so we do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked. And I think most people with dogs know this.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: And I think cats feel the same way.

JOE SPECTOR: Cats are even worse.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

JOE SPECTOR: Because to corral a cat, difficult, difficult, difficult.

TUCKER CARLSON: So anything as someone. If you love animals, you want to, you want care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.

JOE SPECTOR: Yep. They’re in the comfort of their home. Exactly. One of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. And that’s even more so why they should be treated from home. Because the dog is in their natural environment.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

JOE SPECTOR: You’re only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don’t like. And then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations and for a fraction of the price.

Just to give you context, by the way. So Dutch, it’s less than $100 for a year of care. If you went every month, you’d pay 100 bucks. You’d pay over $1,000 to treat your dog. And oftentimes when you have anxiety, you kind of need to have those regular check ins.

And we had a story recently of this guy who had an aggressive dog. He’s been on Dutch for two years, and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he has two buddies. His life has changed. Yes. And there’s no way in the world this owner could have had the money or the time if Dutch wasn’t around to change this dog’s life.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amazing. Yeah. And if you have a dog who bites, I’ve had a few. It’s very disruptive. And, you know, the dog can get killed, by the way. You know, dogs like that either get put down by the state or can be killed in a fight. Whatever. You don’t want that at all. It’s a big problem.

How Dutch Works

TUCKER CARLSON: So how does it work exactly? I don’t understand the term. So it’s a hundred bucks. Tell me how it works. What’s the alternative?

JOE SPECTOR: So with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up. It’s a membership service. It’s $100 for a year of care. So for a year you can call a vet for up to five pets. And we have vets available same day.

So, you know, most of appointments, by the way, are happening at night when the, even if you have a vet, the vet’s closed. Yeah. And so you have a video call. Most calls happen on people’s phones. You talk to a local vet in your state and they’ll, you know, you’re talking to a professional and so they’ll diagnose.

TUCKER CARLSON: You’re talking to a veterinarian.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. You always talk to a veterinarian, a human being. And 90% of the time, and we’ve been doing this now for five years, 90% of the time, they’re able to address the issue over video.

TUCKER CARLSON: Amazing. And so does that include vaccines or what does that include?

JOE SPECTOR: It includes the cost. So vaccines you have to do in person. And we’ll recommend a local clinic if that’s what you need. But if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. We don’t care.

But it includes kind of any of the follow up messages, chats with the vet, so you don’t feel like you’re nickel and dimed. If I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later.

The other thing that’s cool about digital first is that everything is documented, so we know automatically when we should follow up for each condition. Or we know that a veterinarian needs to respond. We have goals. A veterinarian needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there’s a message during the business day.

So we can also really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience.

State-by-State Restrictions

TUCKER CARLSON: Is this nationwide?

JOE SPECTOR: It’s nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don’t allow telemedicine for animals. For animals? Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: What? Really?

JOE SPECTOR: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: Because of lobbying by order.

JOE SPECTOR: Exactly. So that’s why. Big states, any of the big states, some of the biggest ones, like Texas, which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not. And we actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the AVMA and it’s all because of money.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s wild. Yep. So it’s. You are not allowed to do. So is there an underground telehealth? Why don’t you just ignore the law and do it anyway? Sorry.

JOE SPECTOR: Kind of. Well, so there’s actually on. In Texas, there’s a court case that is now at the Supreme Court where the veterinarian said, well, it’s freedom of speech.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

JOE SPECTOR: I’m just telling people how their pets, you know, this is my freedom of speech. So the 5th Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the Attorney General has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.

TUCKER CARLSON: Seriously?

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. What’s his name? Greg. I forget his name.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s so interesting.

JOE SPECTOR: He’s running for Senate.

TUCKER CARLSON: So right now it is illegal for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare on the phone. Yep.

JOE SPECTOR: According to them. Now, there’s always. So there’s two paths in Texas, there’s any state allows emergency, has an emergency provision if it’s a life or death situation. And then in Texas, again, there’s this 5th Circuit decision that’s currently.

So there’s sort of this competing situation in Texas where on the one hand, the 5th Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it’s not allowed.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m pretty sure I could just call up and get very serious drugs prescribed through telehealth as an adult. Very serious, fully addictive benzodiazepines, for example. You can die from going off them. I mean, this is way more addictive than heroin. You can’t die going off heroin. You can die going off Xanax.

JOE SPECTOR: So it’s all about the money.

TUCKER CARLSON: But that’s totally fine. To get that from telehealth or amphetamines, no problem. It’s like Tijuana, you know, you get whatever you want now, but your dog can’t get treatment.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, that’s not. It’s definitely unfair.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s deranged. Is that changing? Are you making progress?

The Fight for Legislative Change

JOE SPECTOR: We’re making good progress. So we’ve changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states. And this upcoming legislative session, we’re lobbying in 12 different states. But definitely there’s a lot of states. I’m sure your listeners live in a lot of those states.

And one of the things we did is we launched this website called savepuppies.com and if you go to savepuppies.com…

TUCKER CARLSON: I love your marketing. I mean, if they’re saying millions of dogs will die, you’re fighting back with savepuppies.com that wasn’t taken.

JOE SPECTOR: I know, right? Yeah, it wasn’t taken. And so you can go there and send a letter to your local legislator. That’s the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level because we don’t have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I ask you, what does the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses?

JOE SPECTOR: I think they’re associated with it.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’ve got no problem with that?

JOE SPECTOR: I don’t think so.

TUCKER CARLSON: Price is going up, care declining that. They’re totally fine with that. What? They’re against options.

The AVMA’s Contradictory Messaging

JOE SPECTOR: So I think again, there’s two things. What they’ll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. And I’ve read, I mean, it’s like we live in two different worlds.

Because what they’ll say is like, for example, one reason prices are going up is there’s also massive vet shortages because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone. And they’ll say, and this is just factually true if you follow BLS Bureau of Labor Statistics, but they’ll say there’s no shortage.

Or you’ll say prices are going up. And there’s data that shows that they’ll say no, prices are not going up. So a lot of times when you talk to them, the surveys they put out are completely nonsensical.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right. And there’s this bottleneck in veterinary school.

JOE SPECTOR: Totally. So that’s another thing. The AVMA, it’s really weird in this industry. And I think I just, again, I’m here because, like, you shine a light on things and I think a lot of people…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential.

The AVMA’s Control Over Veterinary Education

JOE SPECTOR: I know it sucks what they’re doing. So they, the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges. Okay. Like this happens in no other, like law schools don’t have a trade association inside. Like who gets to have a law school. Yeah.

In this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school and they have chokehold that completely.

TUCKER CARLSON: So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not. I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that’s bonkers. Why?

JOE SPECTOR: I mean, it goes back to money. It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and more because people are willing to pay more for it.

TUCKER CARLSON: So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year.

JOE SPECTOR: It’s like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that’s what…

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, if it’s about money, then it’s supply and demand, because that’s what the market is. And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, it like, makes. I’ve, you know, again, I mean, I think I’m a curious person and I try to, like, understand, like, could it be something else? Is there another reason? Like, why would this, if you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think that the way to solve that is to have more veterinarians.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course.

The Shocking Shortage of Veterinarians

JOE SPECTOR: And that’s just not what they’re doing. They’ve, like, literally, I, at this point, know several vet schools that have just stopped development, you know, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they’re not going to get a license. I’m not sure, because there are very…

TUCKER CARLSON: Relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.

JOE SPECTOR: Oh, there’s totally few. Like, just think I can tell you this statistic. There’s about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the ratio in human health care is 1 to 20.

TUCKER CARLSON: No way.

JOE SPECTOR: The disparity is so huge. And the amount of vet schools is so little. Like, we could have dozens of vet schools pop up and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade. And like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools.

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I mean, that’s a cartel. That’s cartel behavior.

JOE SPECTOR: It’s very much cartel behavior. And what’s crazy is I feel like then this gaslighting happens where I’m painted as the bad guy. And they’ll say, “This guy Joe or Dutch, you know, he’s just self interested. He just wants, you know, he’s the one that wants your money.”

And I’m like, how is that possible when I’m like, reducing the cost? It doesn’t make sense.

TUCKER CARLSON: How did you get into this?

From Soviet Refugee to Healthcare Entrepreneur

JOE SPECTOR: Couple reasons. So prior to Dutch I was one of the co-founders of Hims & Hers and so I helped start that telemedicine journey and I would say if we back it up even more, we’d have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out.

When we, my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union…

TUCKER CARLSON: Where to the Bay area? No, but where in the Soviet Union?

JOE SPECTOR: From Uzbekistan. Uzbekistan, Former current separate country of the Soviet Union. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: But then a Soviet republic.

JOE SPECTOR: Yep.

TUCKER CARLSON: What was Uzbekistan like?

JOE SPECTOR: You know, it’s very, it’s Muslim majority but it, I would say secular and everyone got along, I thought quite well and were Jewish and I actually didn’t even know Jews, Muslims are supposed to not get along when I, we went to each other’s weddings. There’s lots of shared history and similarity.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s been true, by the way. Just say factually that has been true in various parts of the world over time. You know, not always of course there are huge problems, but then other places there are no problems. And that was one of them.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, so it was, you know, we, we, you know, I mean I had a good childhood. We left everything behind because my dad was almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book which is just like a regular, I’m sure it’s probably maybe a book on your shelf.

TUCKER CARLSON: What book was it?

JOE SPECTOR: It’s called “Exodus” by Leon Uris.

TUCKER CARLSON: No way. Yeah. And it’s in the 70s. Yeah.

JOE SPECTOR: Fighting for freedom.

TUCKER CARLSON: Exactly.

JOE SPECTOR: I think it’s a concept they didn’t want you to know about.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

Escaping to America

JOE SPECTOR: And we fled. We fled with I had 100 bucks and a red suitcase. And we left. Lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months. Eventually got political asylum to come to the United States, and then, you know, lived in low income housing for a long time in the Bay Area. In the Bay Area.

TUCKER CARLSON: What was that like?

JOE SPECTOR: A couple things. First, my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer. And I saw him at first working flea markets just doing manual labor.

And I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table. And I think later in life it showed me, you know, no one’s too good to take out the garbage.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s right. That is exactly right.

JOE SPECTOR: And just the value of a dollar, I still, I think, yeah, I want to make sure my kids have that. But I still think, and I think back to this business. I think that’s why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones, because I still know what it’s like to not have any money to make difficult decisions when you only have so many dollars every month.

TUCKER CARLSON: What did your dad wind up doing?

JOE SPECTOR: He ended up going back to being an engineer.

TUCKER CARLSON: Wow.

JOE SPECTOR: He got trained education, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing and he became an engineer again. Amazing.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep.

Learning to Survive and Thrive

JOE SPECTOR: They really, yeah. So in so many ways, they inspired me. And with that said, there’s not much that they knew about America, and so I knew that they would love me. But a lot of times I had to figure everything out for myself.

I went to college, I paid for college myself. And I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing. And kind of, that’s, that’s led me. That led me to Hims, and ultimately that led me to Dutch.

TUCKER CARLSON: Were you an animal person?

JOE SPECTOR: We had animals. So in the Soviet Union, tons of animals. So I always definitely grew up with animals. German shepherd, great dogs. Had a black cat. So we had animals up until I was 10. And then we lived in, apart, in tiny apartments.

And so then we got, finally, when I had a family and we had a house, we got, so that’s when we got my corgi. And that’s kind of how it all happened, because I was coming off Hims, it was starting to be a big company. I always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

The $2,000 Trail Mix Incident

JOE SPECTOR: And then we got a corgi and started to see the vet bills. And then the kicker was he got into a trail mix, and then we had a $2,000 vet bill.

TUCKER CARLSON: Trail mix?

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, like, trail mix had, like, a couple M&Ms in it.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, yeah. Not supposed to eat chocolate.

JOE SPECTOR: Not supposed to eat M&Ms. Yeah. They like them, though.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, I like them. Who does?

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

JOE SPECTOR: And did he get sick? No, but the thing is, and that’s the thing is, then I was talking to a veterinarian friend, and he said, like, “You really didn’t have to do, you didn’t have to, like, pump his stomach for, like, the three M&Ms that he ate.”

And I, so then that’s kind of how I started to look around. Like, are there any, like, could I have done something else?

TUCKER CARLSON: Did you pump his stomach?

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: So can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they’re misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they just, like, they’ll do anything.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, I’ll do anything.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

The Power of Telemedicine in Veterinary Care

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, I’ll do anything. And so I think that’s when I realized there’s really no other option when it comes to telemedicine options that I saw. And it goes back to that. A lot of times it has to do with the laws.

But look, I’m the guy who figured when Hims started, it was actually a similar situation back five years ago. Telemedicine wasn’t legal on the human side either. We forget that because it’s now so commonplace, but it was also the same thing. And I helped change those laws back then.

I think that’s kind of why some of these groups are scared of me, is because this guy comes from a place where he has nothing to lose. He’s only doing, I mean, also, I think it’s because I’m doing the right things. I don’t like that, and I’ve done it before. So I think that kind of gives me more confidence that I can do it again.

And I don’t think that’s because before this. So before Dutch came on the scene, what the shelter groups, for example, that wanted telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards, because that’s how the, that’s a simpler way that this could all change. If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, if you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine. If it’s medically appropriate, it could be as simple as that.

And so for over 10 years they were having these conversations. And so that’s when I got here and I’m like, this is doing nothing. So we got to go the legislative route.

The Distorted Priorities of Veterinary Boards

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so revealing. However, I mean, again, I think they’re probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There always are in these systems. But the system itself is so distorted that they don’t put the welfare of animals as the top goal. Like that always has to be the point. Right. If you’re a veterinary board, the health of animals, that’s why you exist.

JOE SPECTOR: Totally.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right, totally. But it doesn’t seem like they’re thinking that way.

JOE SPECTOR: Well, again, what they’ll say is, we are thinking of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine.

TUCKER CARLSON: How will that happen?

JOE SPECTOR: Well, let me tell you of some of these examples I’ve seen. They’ll say, like, I’ll say the example I used, anxiety. Like, I’ll say, isn’t that great for telemedicine? The dog is in the comfort of their home and you can treat them.

They’ll say, “Well, what if the dog ate a nail?” You know, if the dog ate a nail. I’ve been in hearings where this example has happened. Yeah, well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe he’s barking because he ate a nail and he’s in pain because he ate a nail. And so that’s why we shouldn’t have it.

It’s like, are there nails on your house? Like, why are we going to use this crazy made up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedicine?

TUCKER CARLSON: Sure. And if your dog ate a nail, there’s still no good reason why you shouldn’t start with telemedicine.

JOE SPECTOR: Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

JOE SPECTOR: The vet will walk you through it and then you’ll know, do I go to ER or not? Exactly. It’s not, it doesn’t have to be an either or. Right.

Real-World Examples of When Telemedicine Works

TUCKER CARLSON: We had a family dog who ate a pen recently. A needle, you know, a sewing needle. And you know, obviously that’s a brick and mortar situation.

JOE SPECTOR: Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: The dog passed it without any problems, which is kind of, the canine digestive tract is a wonder.

JOE SPECTOR: Wow.

TUCKER CARLSON: All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it. But it still would have been worth calling initially. Like, why not?

JOE SPECTOR: Totally. Why not? It takes, before Dutch, there’s a poison hotline. That’s like $75 just for that first call.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

JOE SPECTOR: And you don’t even know who you’re going to get. And that’s what people do, because again, if that’s what you need to do, that’s what you’ll do. But there’s definitely ways to talk to a human being veterinarian very quickly. Even that for much less and definitely much less than having to spend a thousand dollars in ER.

I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure, and I really, I mean, I really freaked out. And I got on Dutch and the vet says he’s doing reverse sneezing.

TUCKER CARLSON: Reverse?

JOE SPECTOR: Reverse sneezing. I never heard of that in my life. And she showed me videos of reverse sneezing, and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER and she totally calmed me down and made me realize it was totally right.

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s, oh, what a great example. We just had a dog, we’ve had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods. Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since those four years ago. The dog is still seeing trails. Wonderful dog. Woke up with the dog this morning.

But in both cases, there really was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not, I love the vet. I’m not against the vet, to be clear. But it didn’t help at all because it’s just remedy. Right.

JOE SPECTOR: There’s a time and a place for everything. And I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don’t think anyone’s going to say it needs to replace and it won’t happen because it hasn’t happened in human care.

But I think it’s another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that’s way more affordable. And we are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up, or people who are saying, I don’t think I can have a dog in my life. Yes, that sucks.

The Importance of Dogs in Family Life

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that’s a tragedy. Especially people with children need to have dogs.

JOE SPECTOR: I think totally. It’s been, yeah. For us, my kids are little. Eddie, the corgi, they love him so much, and it’s the best.

TUCKER CARLSON: Can I also say it’s really good for your immune system to be around dogs?

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. I think I’ve seen studies that show that. Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: When our first child, who’s 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel, jumped up and licked the dog. Licked the child in the mouth. Child’s never been sick. It’s just a fact.

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah, I think it definitely, I feel like I’ve seen stuff that shows.

TUCKER CARLSON: Really?

JOE SPECTOR: Yeah. That you get that immunity. I’m pretty sure we’ve always.

TUCKER CARLSON: Since I was born, we’ve always, my family’s always been committed to that. Like, you’ve got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy, and everyone’s been really healthy. I think that matters.

So, again, I feel a little weird interviewing you, but because you’ve advertised on our show and all that, but I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing. And I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree. And so I just, it was sincere. I really loved it.

Fighting the Monopoly: David vs. Goliath

JOE SPECTOR: Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me, it was, “Hey, I like dogs. This makes sense.” And I think I already, I was like, Tucker’s got to know this conspiracy that’s happening because it’s such baloney and it’s so unfair and so few people kind of, like I said, know how monopolistic it is.

And I thought that your listeners and you could help us, because I think we’re the Goliath in this fight or the, right, we’re the David. Yes. In this fight. And it needs people to understand how crazy the situation is for both for veterinarians who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine, as well as for pet owners who can’t afford it.

And it all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to change, to keep the laws from changing. So I think that whole part, you had no idea what’s going on.

TUCKER CARLSON: I had literally no idea. And again, for us at this age, you know, the cost is not the main barrier. For us, the barrier is the dog. It’s just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet, and sometimes there’s no choice. And I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it.

JOE SPECTOR: And your dogs.

TUCKER CARLSON: So it’s Dutch.com.

JOE SPECTOR: Yep. D U T C H. Well, I’m.

TUCKER CARLSON: Sure it’ll be attacked for insider dealing, but it’s not. I think you’d advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length. So I’m grateful that you did.

JOE SPECTOR: Thank you. Yes.

TUCKER CARLSON: Joe Spector. Thank you.

JOE SPECTOR: Thank you.

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