21 Principles of Top 0.01% Leaders – John Maxwell Interview (Transcript)

I don’t think everybody has that, but I think I’m very fortunate and very blessed to have found something that helps people that I love so much. And so that’s why, I mean, consistency is not hard. I mean, once you find something like that, you just keep wanting… Consistency’s not hard. Getting better is hard.

Consistency vs. Growth

So I’m not just at rep. I’m not talking about repetition, consistency, every day. Every day. No, I’m talking about every day. But every day there’s improvement. Every day there’s growth. Every day there’s change that happens in a person’s life.

So I’m very consistent in leadership, but I’m very growth oriented in every day. I have to get better at it because the only guarantee anybody’s future is going to be good is that they’re growing right now. I mean, there’s no guarantee that tomorrow could ever be better if I’m not still growing and developing myself today.

So there is a consistency of I’ve done leadership, but I do leadership much better today than I did 50 years ago. You know what? In fact, I look back at some of my early books and I thought, “Oh, you know, can I get…” In fact, sometimes I go to the publisher and I say, “Can I buy that book out?” You know, because I’ve learned so much more now. I look and I think, “Oh, that wasn’t… That wasn’t near as good as it could have been or should have been.”

So there is a consistency as far as I’ve done it a long time. But I tell people, you could do something a long time, and people say they’re very consistent. But that doesn’t mean that you’re really helping people. You’ve got to constantly grow. So there’s a… I continue to do it, but I continue to do it better. And I am in love with better. I’m in love with growing.

DAN MARTELL: When I think about my journey on that topic of where I started, where I am today, same embarrassed. Some of the ways I acted, some of the things totally.

JOHN MAXWELL: Oh, my gosh.

DAN MARTELL: When you look back on your journey, John, what are kind of three moments that… who did you need to become to be the John Maxwell I’m sitting here with today from where you started?

Three Catalytic Moments of Growth

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, you know, such a good question, Dan. And really, I feel the same way. I tell people if they would have seen me in the beginning, they would all be greatly encouraged because they really would be. My first book wasn’t good. I mean, it just really wasn’t good. It was my first book. But you’re never good the first time. In fact, you’re usually not too hot the second time either. But why do I keep doing it? Because I may not be good the first time or the second time, but I do want to be good sometime. And you’re only going to be good sometime if you’re working at it and you’re practicing.

# The First Catalyst: Intentional Growth

And so the catalyst for me was that when I was in my 20s, I had a mentor, and he asked me if I had a personal plan for growth in my life, which I did not. Didn’t even know I should have one. And he awakened me to the fact that if I was going to really get better, I had to be intentional.

And I would look back at that moment and say, that was my eureka moment. Because I kind of thought, if you just show up and do your work, you kind of improve. I remember he said to me, “You know, getting older is automatic, but getting better is not. Just keep breathing and you get older. But he said, if you’re going to get better…” And that awakened me at a very young age, and I became extremely intentional in my growth. So that’s the first area.

# The Second Catalyst: Going Deep, Not Wide

I think the second catalytic time for me, Dan, was when I asked myself… well, what I realized when I got on a growth track. I thought, “I can’t grow in every area. I mean, I’m not that smart. I don’t have that much time. I mean, how much can you read? How… How wide can you go?”

And I decided that with that, I didn’t want to go wide in growing. I wanted to go deep in growing. And so that I needed… I needed to pick a few spots because, first of all, I’m not highly gifted, so a lot of spots I couldn’t do well in if I did learn.

And so I sat down for about 14 months. I can remember doing this very well. I would have been probably 28, 29. And I said, “If I’m going to start writing books, I’m going to start helping people. Where do I really help them?” And I just studied success.

And I came to the conclusion after 14 months that if there are five areas, that if I could really get five lanes going, it would help and those five areas are communication. Because to be successful, you really have to be able to communicate, connect with people. I mean, if you’re a leader, you have to cast vision. You know, Warren Buffett said the most important skill that you can have, and I think he’s right, probably, is communication, to be able to connect. So I said, “Okay, I’m going to help people in communication.”

Obviously, I’m going to help people in leadership. I will help people learn how to develop teams and equipment, because you know as well as I do, if you’re going to be… If you’re going to compound, money, influence, time, you have to have a team. So I said, “I’m going to help people do that.”

I’m going to help people with attitude, just mainly attitude on adversity and difficulty. And how do you work through the emotionally difficult times in your life? Because, you know, how many times do we see people quit when they had all the gifts and all the resources to make it? They just emotionally couldn’t handle the pressure and they dropped it. So if I could help them with attitude, kind of…

And then relationships, the ability to really connect people. Because, honestly, if you don’t get along with people, people really won’t go along with you. So you’ve got to have some pretty heavy relationship schools.

That would be the second aha moment for me. You know, the first year, I’ve got to be intentional then. Now I’ve got to get specific. And my books today I’ve just finished writing my 90th book, and they’re in those five areas. I have five lanes. And here’s what I wish we had time to talk about this.

DAN MARTELL: And you figured this out at 28?

The Journey to Mastery: Learning from Mistakes and Building Expertise

JOHN MAXWELL: Yeah, there’s a lot of things I didn’t figure out. I said that now that I said that. I said that too quick. Yes, I did. That’s an honest answer. But it took me 14 months to discover the five things.

And I never wrote a book for me because people tell me, “Sir, well, I have a story I want to tell.” And I said, “Well, your mother will buy it. You got your two sisters, they’ll buy it. You got your next door neighbor. After you sell 11 books, no one cares. They really don’t.”

So I never told my story. It’s always about where are you and how can I help you. And what I found is the moment you add value to people and they look at you and they say, “My life is better because of you” – that is your most important moment in helping develop leadership relationships with people.

I’ve spent my life specifically helping people get better. I had a lady the other day come to me, she said, “I know why you’re successful.” I said, “Good, tell me why.” She said, “You’re very successful helping people become very successful.” I said, “Yeah, I do that. That’s what I do. I help people get better.”

And when you help people get better, they’re yours for life. Not yours for life like slaves. They’re yours for life as far as connection and relationship. And when people say, “Well, how do your books sell so well?” Well, it’s a John Maxwell book and John Maxwell helps people and he adds value to people. “Oh, there’s a title. Well, what’s the title?” It doesn’t matter. It’s a John Maxwell book.

Building Your Expertise Highway

And so the ability to find these five lanes, then when you get a lane, obviously you could add more lanes to it. But so, you know, in some of my areas in leadership, I probably have about a 12-lane freeway in leadership. You know, in some things it would be less lanes. But I tell people, you pick a lane and get it and then you add another lane and after a while you can move a lot of stuff down the road. So that would be the second catalyst.

The Power of Learning from Great People

And the third one was I really worked hard getting around great people. You know, we hear the phrase “who luck,” you know, which is who you know is important. I realized very early that I needed to get around great people. So I did everything in my power to meet people that were bigger than me, better than me, faster than me, smarter than me.

You know, I have an expression that says, “If you’re the head of the class, you’re in the wrong class.” I have never been at the head of the class in any area, and I still am not. If I’m at the head of the class, I get out of that class so quick. Because if you’re at the head of the class, all you’re doing is talking to people about what you do and you’re not growing.

And so that’s why I like to be around people like you. And that’s why I ask questions. I ask questions because you know things I don’t know and I’m not going to find out until I ask you questions. And I’ve never lost that appetite to be around people bigger, better and faster than me.

I’m uncomfortable when I’m the head of the class. I’m not uncomfortable leading anything, but I’m very uncomfortable when I look around and I say, “Wow, I think I probably know more than the rest of them” because at that moment, how are you going to learn more?

And so I have been very passionate about jumping the fence, going anywhere I have to go to meet people and ask them questions because I have this thing – when I’m with somebody and I don’t get to ask them questions, I feel I walk away and I think there was something they know that I don’t know and I didn’t get any time with them to ask them the question. So I still don’t know it.

And that is very frustrating. Every day I think, “Wow, I could have learned more if I could have just had a little more time with somebody and asked them questions and sat at their feet and take notes and applied it to my life.”

The Consistency of Learning

So I think those three things as I look back at it, Dan, that’s where I am today. I mean that’s how I got to where I am today. And they’ve never changed. I mean it’s again back to consistency compounds.

Every month I still have a learning lunch where I take somebody bigger, better and faster than me. It’s my favorite thing every month. And I buy their lunch. I don’t even eat. I just got a list of seven questions and I ask them the seven questions and when I’m done, I look at them and I think you have deposited stuff in me that’s going to have a return and hopefully I’ll be able to thank you and let you know that you’re the one that was the catalyst for it.

But I still – if somebody said “What do you want to do? What’s your favorite thing?” My favorite thing is learning. Not writing, not speaking, not leading. My favorite thing is learning because every time I learn then I have something to give to others. You know, you can’t give what you don’t have.

DAN MARTELL: Oh, so good.

The Maxwell Well Philosophy

JOHN MAXWELL: My father, one more thing. I’m so grateful for my father who is so great. So he said, “John, keep the well filled.” He said, “Don’t ever go to the well and have it empty. You got to deposit, you got to keep putting stuff in.”

And he told us the word Maxwell, literally Scottish Maxwell, really means to fill the well to the max. And so he’d say “Live up to your name. You’re a Maxwell. I mean, we’re not a mini well. We’re not a half full well. We’re not like we got an empty well, we’re a max well.”

And he said the only person that can fill your well is you. That’s it. He taught me how to file every day, how to ask questions. And so I deposit in my well every day, you know, thoughts, ideas, quotes, stories. I have thousands, thousands. Because I’ve been doing that since I was 17. And I’ve said, well, I’ve done that for 60 years.

So I never run out of material. I mean, I always have something to write about. I have something to talk about. Not because I’m brilliant, but because, you know, every day I read, every day I think, every day I file, every day I ask questions, and every day I write. Those are those everyday essentials. Back to consistency. I do those every day.

The Simple Daily Disciplines

So people say, “How do you write 90 books?” Well, it’s simple. Every day I read, every day I think, every day I follow, every day I ask questions, every day I write. I mean, when you think about it, isn’t that all simple? There’s nothing – I’m a very simple person. There’s nothing complex about my life at all. But I do it every day.

And I also, Dan, I don’t do it all day. I didn’t say all day I write. I think intensity is overrated. I think consistency is underrated. And, you know, some days, like we’re doing conferences here right now, at best, I’ll get 15 to 20 minutes to write. Today, I don’t get any time. That’s okay, but I do it every day. That’s the key. 10, 15 minutes every day. You put that out for three or four months, you got some pretty serious writing going on. Does that make sense?

DAN MARTELL: Yeah. And you said that to me on that call, you go, “Dan, I’ve been doing this for 53 years. It’s not that impressive.”

JOHN MAXWELL: And I was just like, just have to be old.

DAN MARTELL: Yeah.

JOHN MAXWELL: It’s working for you. In fact, it’s really working. The longer you live. I mean, it kind of – you go, “Whoa.” You know, so old’s not all bad.

DAN MARTELL: And you’re – I believe your dad lived to 95.

JOHN MAXWELL: No, he lived to 98, almost 99. Where you got the 95, Dan, is he worked full time.

DAN MARTELL: That’s what I was asking. Because that work ethic, that must have been a huge influence on you.

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, and again, it wasn’t work to my dad. So, yeah, I mean, we grew up – my brother will turn 80 and he works and, you know, I work. Yeah, we work.

DAN MARTELL: Just do it.

JOHN MAXWELL: Just do it. Yeah, and just do it.

Starting from Scratch: The Path to Becoming a Bestselling Author

DAN MARTELL: If somebody’s starting from scratch today and, in your situation, let’s say you’re starting from scratch today, but we take everything away from you and the goal is to be a bestselling author. How would you approach that?

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, I would say don’t write until you have something to write about. I think people write too early. I think that they – somebody says, you know, “I got a thought, I want to write a book.” I said, “You know, a thought doesn’t fill a book, a thought fills a page. So you got 140 pages, you got 140 thoughts to go.” You know what I’m saying?

So what I tell people all the time is don’t write a book, but start writing. And what you do is you write and put things that you’re writing in different subjects or categories. And I label everything I write. And so if I’m writing on attitude, I’ll put, you know, I wrote maybe a paragraph on attitude. I’ll file it under attitude.

Just start writing and start filling up all of these little areas of things that you care about and love. And don’t try to write a book, just try to have good thoughts. And then after a period of doing that for a few years, you really have something now that perhaps has enough maturity to really write it.

The Maturity Factor in Writing

Because, you know, writing shows up, writing shows maturity. Speaking doesn’t necessarily, but writing does. Because when you can see something visually, you are much more acutely aware if it’s good or not than if you hear it through your ears.

And so I say speak often when you’re young, write seldom as far as books. And so I didn’t start – I started in ’79, so I was born in ’47, so I was 32 when I start writing. And as I look back, I probably started writing three or four years at least too early anyway.

And I’m not trying to discourage people, I’m not discouraging writing, I’m discouraging somebody putting it in a book. Because if you just keep writing good thoughts, thinking them through, there’s a time when you’ll have a plethora of good material that you can then start putting on pages that’ll just serve you better because you know better.

Because nothing’s more embarrassing than my writing – I speak and people forget about that. But there’s books I’ve got, they’re still around. Yeah. And I think I’ve written 90 books. I think only I have three of them out of print. And that’s so frustrating. I need to have like 30 out of print, I really do. But they won’t go out of print because they sell now because of who I am.

And so when people have that book, I don’t want to go up and say, “Now, let me – that’s really not that good of a book.” You know what I’m saying? It’s because I didn’t know.

The Evolution of Knowledge

I had a guy one time tell me. He said, “I wish I could have heard you 20 years ago.” And I said, “No, you don’t.” He said, “No, I really do.” And I said, “Really, just trust me. You don’t need to have heard me 20 years ago.”

And I could tell he was baffled. He said, “If I would have heard 20 years ago what you taught me today, it would change my life.” I said, “If you’d have heard me 20 years ago, you wouldn’t have heard what I taught you today. I didn’t know it then. I’ve learned it.”

And I think that’s what the big miss is. I think the big miss is the fact that what I’m teaching today I didn’t know maybe 10 years ago, because I’m constantly growing and learning. So my material is constantly, hopefully getting better, more mature and fresh.

And I think that’s what really excites me, is not what I knew, but what I’m learning. And then how do I pass it on to other people? But I mean, I didn’t come out of my mother’s womb with the 21 irrefutable laws of leadership. That stuff has to evolve.

DAN MARTELL: But how many books did you write before that?

The Journey to Writing Excellence

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, I’m going to guess 35, maybe 35. I didn’t write a good book until my seventh. I wrote a book called “The Winning Attitude,” which was my seventh book. And when I wrote that book, all of a sudden I thought, “I’m starting to really understand how to write well,” because I was a natural speaker, but I was not a natural writer.

So I had a lot of people help me. A lot of good writers kind of helped me. And it took me a while. I was a little slow to catch on. So I did seven books before “The Winning Attitude.” And then I would have probably done another 25 before “The 21 Laws of Leadership.”

And of course, that book is probably that book today is still the number one leadership book in the world. I mean, it just keeps doing. And then I wrote “Developing the Leader Within You.” That was catalytic because that was the first book that really said that you can develop yourself as a leader.

The Birth of Leadership Development

Up until that time, there was not one book written on leadership that said you can develop yourself as a leader. It was basically “leaders are born.” In fact, what’s really interesting about leadership, Dan, if you go back to the 1980s and go into a bookstore, there’s no leadership books in the bookstore. There are management books.

You know, Peter Drucker and I was privileged. He mentored me. Peter Drucker was the great management guru and he owned the world. And businesses were buying management books. But in the late 80s, times were moving so quick. Things were happening. You can’t manage speed. You got to lead speed.

And all of a sudden managers were getting frustrated because they were trying to keep things together and orderly and things were getting not together and messy. And that’s when there was a call. “We got to get beyond management of what is. We got to get to leadership what can be and will be. We got to get a little bit more futuristic.”

So you really go about 1990. And that’s right when I started, I wrote “Developing Leadership Within You.” Right. Maybe 92, three. That I kind of. I was. I would. To say would be first would not be maybe. Right. But if I wasn’t first, I was an awful close second or third. I saw that and I wrote “Developing Leader Within You.” Then I wrote “Developing Leaders Around You.” And immediately it started catching on and that, you know, that kind of. Then it took off.

DAN MARTELL: Leadership development.

JOHN MAXWELL: Yeah. Yeah.

High Road Leadership and Service

DAN MARTELL: Well, your latest book is incredible. Talking about, you know, the United States. We’re more the divided states, high road leadership. But at the end of the book, because I had it highlighted of just so many things I want to talk to you about. But one of my favorite parts is literally almost like the last five pages. You talk about kind of takeaways about people should show up as “I will serve you.”

And you mentioned some key people in your life that I want to ask you about as it pertains specifically to, you know, a lot of people know me as, you know, the buy back, your time guy and productivity. I’m going to mention these names and I’m curious what they mean to you. The first one is Linda Eggers, who is Linda to the world.

The Power of an Executive Assistant

JOHN MAXWELL: Linda’s with us today. You know Linda, she’s our executive. My executive assistant. And I think she’s been with me for 37 years. My gosh, we were young and she was very capable. She was good at details and. And you know, I just said, “Linda, can you help me?” And she came alongside and helped me.

I didn’t even know how to call her an executive assistant. Back then, it was just back there was kind of secretary, “can you just do some busy work for me?” And I watched her do busy work. And every time she was doing something that I would have to do, she was saving me time. Back in time, that whole process.

Very quickly I realized that activity is not necessarily accomplishment. So, but prioritizing what you do now, you’re going to start making some progress. And she allowed me to do three or four things that I did exceptionally well of, which was giving the return. It was giving us the return. And then she picked up everything else.

And I watched her, and I, you know, first she gave her the calendar, and she said, “calendar.” And then I said, “okay, now you do the travel.” And she did the travel. And, you know, it’s like anybody that’s really good, you give them the ball and they run with it and score a touchdown. You say, “well, let me give it to you again.”

And it’s kind of like, “how much can I give her?” I mean, I, you know, “Linda, can you go speak for me? If you can go speak for me,” you know, then she’s called timeout. “I’m not going to go do that for you, but, hey, but I’ll get you to the event, and you won’t have to worry about tickets or hotels or anything else.”

And very quickly, my calendar, my workload, as far as anything that was busy was freed up immediately. And within one year with her, I was just doing the things that I need to be doing that’s going to give the return for myself or for my team that we need.

And I looked at her and I thought, “you’re my most valuable player, and there will be nobody more valuable than you.” Because really, for a person, is there anything more valuable than your time? Because now you can play the game the way you want to have it. You know, if you don’t have margins and you don’t have that, then it’s impossible for you to go where you need to go. “I’d like to go there, but I can’t go there because I got these three things.” Well, I don’t have these three things. She takes those three things.

So she’s just been with me, and we laugh and we ask, you know, “how long are we going to be in the game?” We’re in the game. We love what we do, and we love doing it together. And what would I ever do without her? I mean, so much of my success would be because she serves me so well and cares for what I do so much and believes in what I do. So much that I’m not here without Linda. I’m not here without her. It’s just that simple. She’s indispensable. Yeah, totally.

The Multiplying Effect of Great Support

DAN MARTELL: That’s beautiful. When you think of the impact it’s had to your ability to. Is it a double, a triple? I mean, or it’s. I’m not here. Like, when people. Because sometimes they’re the unsung hero behind the scenes that most people don’t always. And yet they produce the space for us to do the work that everybody else gets to appreciate. When you think of the headspace, the energy, the focus, the conversations you were able to have.

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, here’s what I know. The people that are not seen are the ones that have helped my work to be seen. And I just want to also say, I think I’ve tried to take good care of her. She’s very valuable to me, and I try to let people know how valuable she is, too. But I try to take good care of her financially. I try. Why shouldn’t I? I mean, she’s been so important to me, and I just think that. I think the greatest way I can respect her is to acknowledge how much she’s helped me, but also make sure that she’s very well taken care of, because that’s a big loss.

I got a lot of people you can lose. And you can say, “next.” You know what I’m saying? How do you do “next” with an executive assistant that’s been with you for 37 years, who knows you well?

You know, what a funny story. One time we were talking and I was writing a book, and I was trying to help leaders be authentic and talk about what they don’t do well or their weaknesses. And so I said, “Linda,” I said, “you know, over the next couple days, just make a list of some of the things I just don’t do well. I’m just, you know, I’m just. It’s not my gift, and I kind of mess it up if I do it. Just kind, you know, take a couple days and just, you know, write down a few things that I don’t do really well and then give them to me and I’ll put them in a book to let people know that you can be very successful. And yet there are some things you don’t do very well.”

It’s so funny, Dan. She said, “well, I don’t need a few days.” She said, “I can tell you right now.” I said, “what do you mean, you can tell?” Oh, she said, “no, no, no.” She said, “you got to. Here, here, start writing these things down,” and she’s going down this, and I’m going, “wait, wait. Can you not even act like, well, yes, I’ll have to think about these things?” No. Guess why? She’s lived with them and she does know me.

The Value of Authentic Relationships

And there’s something beautiful about people who know, you know, your weaknesses, your strengths, your humanness and that. They love you and they believe in you and they help you and they support you. And we’ve laughed about that a lot. But I think it’s very true that your inner circle and the people that are closest to you, they see your highest moments, but they also see your lowest. They see the wind, but they also see the valley when you’re going through some very difficult times.

And I kind of love having people around me that care for me enough that, you know, we can talk about it and work through it, and I can ask their advice. You know, last night at the table, I had a couple of my. Well, I had her and I had Erin, my content creator. And I was just asking them questions to help me. “Help me become more aware about this or what am I missing?”

And. And I find that they’re huge assets because I really am not sure a person is self aware. I think the self awareness I have is because somebody came into my life that cared for me enough to deal with the blind spots. For me, I think self awareness, my self awareness mainly is me asking my team to help me with my blind spots and the things that I don’t see automatically.

And I think we have to give permission to people to do that. I think that’s. I think people will not share honestly with you unless you really want to hear from them. And, you know, I’m 77. I look at my team all the time and say, “now look, if you see me starting to slip, raise your hand.” Because my observation is people stay too long.

I mean, look at athletes, you know, you know, they play two or three years after they hit their peak, and I don’t want to do that. And I think people stay too long because they don’t have somebody tell them that they’re staying too long. And I want people around me to talk to me and be open and honest with me because I want to do it right and I want to do it well, but I don’t want to start sliding.

And yeah, I just think that they can help me in that area. I want them to help me because I need it.

The Power of Asking for Advice

DAN MARTELL: I love that you asked for advice. You know, one of the other things that you talked about and you just mentioned her. Erin Miller. She’s another name in Charlie. Because you told me, you said one time, you said “there are speakers who. Or there’s authors who speak and then there’s speakers who write.”

JOHN MAXWELL: Yes.

DAN MARTELL: And have people and support you. And you mentioned Aaron, your content person. So I met her last time I was at this event and I was just blown away. And I went and hired my Aaron Miller. So I’ve got Joel Harrison. He’s on my team.

JOHN MAXWELL: Good for you.

DAN MARTELL: They’ve talked. Thank you for that.

JOHN MAXWELL: And that’ll make it. That’ll help.

Collaborative Content Creation

DAN MARTELL: Well, tell the world about how you collaborate on creative projects because that’s again, buying back your time. It’s like sometimes it’s a better product. It’s how have you set up your book writing, 90 books, share with the world. Kind of how that works.

Finding and Developing a Content Curator

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, first of all, I hired her by accident. She was already on the team. And she was one of our coaching conferences that we’re here right now in Orlando. And every year, every time we bring our coaches together, there’s one talk I give every new coach, and that is, “What’s the DNA of a John Maxwell coach? What’s our culture? What do we look like?” In fact, I gave that yesterday.

And so she’d been at about three coaching conferences and she’d heard me. She came up one time to me and she said, “Would it be okay if you just gave me that talk?” And she said, “I have a couple ideas that maybe I could just…” And I said, “Sure, have at it.” I gave her that talk, and about two days later, she brought it back with about a half a dozen much better thoughts and ideas than what I was giving.

And I looked at her and I said, “You did this?” She said, “Yeah,” she said, “I just was kind of wanting to nicely said, upgrade you a little bit and freshen you up.” Well, I said, “This is good.” And then that’s the day I realized that she could do it. Honestly, that’s how. And I look at… I gave her something else. “Can you upgrade this?” And she upgraded that. And after about three or four, I looked at Mark, I said, “Mark, you need somebody. I need somebody to help us here. We’ve got somebody already on the team. We just didn’t realize it.”

And so then, of course, then she became official content curator. And she is brilliant in three areas. And I think content curators are all different. I mean, I think some content curators are great researchers. They’re just really great researchers. When I started off with Charlie, I said, “I don’t need a lot of material.”

DAN MARTELL: And who is Charlie for the rest of the world?

The Importance of Teaching Your Team

JOHN MAXWELL: Charlie’s my wordsmith guy. He’s been with me for 30 years. Whenever there’s a derivative project, Charlie does all of that for me. He’s just major help. He’s been with me for a long time. But I said, “Charlie, I want you to do research for me. But I don’t need a lot of research. So if I’m going to deal on leadership, I don’t need 500 pages on leadership. You got to figure out what I want out of research, but you got to help them narrow down.”

So I took quote books with Charlie, and I said, “I want you to mark what you think are the good quotes in this book.” And so he marked them. And then I looked at them and I marked them, and we were about 80% different. So then I sat down with him and I said, “Charlie, you like that quote? Let me tell you why I would never use that quote.” And I started walking him through what fits me and what doesn’t fit me because I don’t want him to bring me material on a subject. I want him to bring me material on a subject that I can immediately apply and use.

We did that for three books, and by three books, we were about 80% together on it. So you have to teach them. You’re literally teacher, content people. I know that’s the subject we’re looking at, but there are certain parts of that subject I’m never going to talk about or I’m not very interested in. So you have to spend what I call a lot of time with them in the beginning for them to… It’s like Linda with letters and now emails. You know, in the beginning, I’d sit down. “Here’s how I would write that letter, and here’s why I would say that.” And then after a while, she’d write and she’d look at it and I’d say, “Okay, everything. I wouldn’t say that.” And, you know, you just do that after a while. Now she takes care of everything.

So I think there’s a… I think there is a passion and patience needed to make sure that they are on the same wavelength that you’re on. Fortunately for Erin, she’d been around the team long enough. She already kind of knew me better. And so she kind of… That was… She was… She was much quicker.

Three Key Strengths of a Great Content Curator

But she’s brilliant in three things. She’s brilliant in taking something I said way over here to the right and something I’m doing here to the left and saying “that fits.” She can find the pieces from different places. In fact, I told her the other day, I said, “You memory.” She’ll say, “Remember when you talked about this?” Well, yeah, yeah, “Well, you know, if we pulled that out, we could put that over there.” So she has a high gift of being able to take things I’ve said somewhere else and putting them in something I’m doing right now, which is absolutely… She’s extremely good on that.

The second thing that she’s really brilliant in is she can take something I have said and she can elaborate it and pull it out and make it better so she can work it. She can work it. Now, I’m a pretty good work a phrase person myself. But what she does, she doesn’t work a phrase dynamically like I do, but she works her phrase practically to where… “But that’s going to help them. That’s where they live.” You got to understand, because I have a tendency sometimes to be… You follow me? Success has a gap in it. A lot of times she’s here and I’m… And she said, “No, no, John. These people are wondering. They’re not asking that question or asking this question.” So she kind of speaks for the person that’s in the seat a little bit more than what I would have a tendency maybe to skip it or feel that’s kind of basic. We don’t want to go there at all.

And the third thing that she has really a good ability to do is take what we’re doing and figure out what we could do with it next. You know, “What would happen if we went over and did that later on.” That is a high gift. It’s kind of like a leadership, creative gift that I think most people… Now those are her three. I mean, she does it wordsmith for me, there’s a lot of things that she doesn’t do because it’s not in her strength. But what I’m wanting for is a thought provoker and somebody that could, you know, throw it out.

And so I’ll talk to her. I’ll say, “Here’s a subject,” what I’ll do. I gave her one the other day. I said, “Find some stuff on servanthood and some stuff on just some vulnerability for me.” And what she can do… She can find it, but she can say, “Do you remember when you did that? You were very vulnerable there. That would be a good illustration that you could use.” So they’re worth their weight in gold.

Oh, one other thing she does very well is when I’m speaking, she takes copious notes because I speak…

DAN MARTELL: I watched her.

JOHN MAXWELL: Oh, yeah. In fact, just stand in for… She didn’t look. Sit in my bathroom. She said…

DAN MARTELL: You can’t talk to her. She’s like, “Nope, she don’t want to talk.”

Capturing Ideas in Real Time

JOHN MAXWELL: Yeah. Yeah. And what she’s doing is she’s gleaning. Go. Because when I speak, I naturally speak, and I boom, boom. I think on my feet while I talk, and so I’ll say things I’ve never said before. She catches it. I say, she’s a gold catcher, you know, because at the end of it, really, Dan, if you let the enemy ask me. “Now, you said something was really creative.” I look at you and say, “I can’t pull it out.” That’s how quick I say it, and I move it on. But she catches it in thousands of ideas and thoughts she’s caught.

The other day, she said I was speaking, and she said, “I got about four things for you out of that talk that you haven’t said before.” Well, that’s… What’s the worth of that? It’s huge. So I’m very grateful, and I’m so glad that… I’m so glad that you found your 100%. Because I’ll tell you what, Dan, they’re worth their weight in gold, too.

DAN MARTELL: Well, I thought I was pretty good at, like, buying back my time in all these creative areas, and I saw that, and I was like, “John, that is fascinating.” And it was what you just said about the idea of listening to my talk, because sometimes I get off stage and people are like, “Oh, I love that thing you said.” I’m like, “I don’t remember saying that.”

JOHN MAXWELL: Oh, no.

DAN MARTELL: And that would just go into the ether, and I would never be able to reuse it. So having Joel around to watch my talks and collaborate with, and it’s more fun. I mean, that’s… To me, fun is… is good.

Finding the Right CEO

The third person I wanted to ask you about, because a lot of entrepreneurs watch my stuff, and, you know, they have this vision. “Someday, wouldn’t it be cool if I could just do the thing I do and have somebody run the thing?” Mark Cole, the CEO. You’ve been, again, somebody’s been in your life for a long time.

JOHN MAXWELL: I think Mark’s been with me 23, 24 years.

DAN MARTELL: Beautiful talk. Talk to me about Mark, how you found him. And I believe he said something to you. That is, you said this in your book, your most recent book. You said, “He made a commitment to me, that he’d always put me at the priority of things to support the vision” or something like that.

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, when I think of Mark, it’s very humbling to even talk about him. I didn’t find him. We hired him, and we hired him to work in a stockroom. I mean, we just… I didn’t even know him probably for three years. The company… I mean, somebody hired him, so he’s in there. And then I started hearing people talk about him before I ever met him. They just talk about how they like working with him. And he was now already moving up out of the stockroom. And it was kind of like “Mark Hole.” And I’d ask about him, and they’d say, “Well, he’s a good leader, and people love him and they really care for him.”

So finally he started to get my attention. And so when I met him, I thought, “Yeah, this kid’s got some… He’s got some real good potential.” But we really let him work himself all the way up through. I mean, it wasn’t like a fast climb. It’s just everywhere he went, where he was, it did well. And everybody that he was with loved him and was pushed. It was kind of like they were pushing him up. And so Mark said, “The next spot, the next spot.”

And so finally I had him start traveling with me a little bit so that I could get to know him better. And when I got to know him better, I thought, “Now I’m starting to understand why these people are really like him.” So he started getting closer, got in, started getting on my inner circle. I kept giving him more responsibility, extremely. He’s a finisher. He’s a make it happen person.

And one day I looked and I said, “This guy, just like Linda, can take care of all of my busy stuff that I want to get off. Now this guy can start unloading some of the important things that I’m doing as a leader.” What he really did is he started taking the leadership responsibilities off of me, because although I lead very well, I make rain when I write and when I speak. Yeah, a lot of people can lead a company, but not a lot of people can make the rain that I can make, either through speaking or writing. So now I’m saying “I love to lead. I love leadership. But now I’m giving up things that I’m good at, but he’s as good at, in many ways, better than I am.”

DAN MARTELL: Was that hard?

The Art of Delegation and Trust

JOHN MAXWELL: Yeah. And so, you know, again, when you start giving up in the beginning, you give up all the busy stuff. But the harder, I always say, the higher you climb, the harder it is to give up. Because after a while, you’re giving up stuff that you really like to do yourself and that you’re good at yourself. And you say, “But I can do that.”

Well, that is the question. Not can I do it? But can someone else do it? Because somebody else can. If somebody else can do what you’re doing, you need to get rid of it as quick as possible. You need to be doing what no one else can do. That’s the distinctive that you’re going for.

The man just loves me and cares, total trustworthy and puts me always first. Being a second person is an honor to him. It’s not like “I think I’m good enough. I ought to be first.” And I’ve had a lot of second people that I said, “You need to go be your own CEO because you are good and you don’t.” And Mark can do the same thing. And of course, he gives him. I give him more and more.

Now he really has so much of the. I mean, he’s part owner of the company, and it’s going to be a handoff to him. But the thing that makes Mark so incredible and so humbling to me is that he lives to serve me. And there’s never been a time in my life I questioned his motives. There’s never been a time I looked at him and said, “No, what’s happening over there?” Total complete trust, you know.

Building and Testing Trust

And the only way that you can give complete trust is, you know, you can’t trust what hasn’t been tested. It has to be tested. So people say, “Well, you trust him.” Well, I can give you initial trust just based on. I will trust you as a person. But you’re going to have to. It’s going to have to be tested. We’re going to have to see if during all times you’re trustworthy. He is.

And probably the greatest thing I could say about him is because he is that way. The people he leads are that way. And so the environment is extremely safe, and the environment is whole. It’s not dysfunctional. And he has created people who care greatly about what we’re doing. And he’s been a phenomenal asset. And now I’m enjoying mentoring him in his leadership level.

And, you know, it’s one thing for your second person to lead through you and go and say, “Well, here’s what Dan wants,” and there’s another time when no longer Dan’s in the scene. “Here’s what I want.” When that handoff all of a sudden, because if it’s from Dan, “Yeah, we got it.” If it’s from John, “We got it.” But all of a sudden now it’s from Mark.

So I said, “Now, Mark, you’re going to have, your leadership’s going to be tested. It has to stand on its own to a great extent.” It’s kind of like I can get you in the room with all my peers, but I can’t keep you in the room. You’ve got to keep yourself in the room.

The Handoff Process

And so we just, when we started, we started saying we’re going to do this handoff. I said, “You write down the things you need from me and I’m going to write down the things I need from you and let’s have a talk.” And I think there were nine things he needed from me. I think there were maybe 10 things I needed from him. We just had open conference. “Can you give that to me? Can I receive that from you?” Back and forth.

And it was a very healthy kind of like handoff exercise that we go over. We still go over it every once in a while. Go back and say, “Now are we still being true to that list and have we done it well? And is there something we need to add to the list or maybe something?” Now a lot of things of the nine things he needed for me, probably now he needs maybe three or four of them. He doesn’t need them all because it’s been tested.

But I think that kind of understanding in transitioning is wise instead of just transitioning. Yeah, I like to put some thought behind it.

DAN MARTELL: What’s your style? Because you talked about this with Linda, Aaron, Charlie and even Mark. What’s your process when you let go? Because that’s the biggest fear. People like letting go and then something happens and you’ve got to sit down and help correct them. What’s your thinking behind it? Without being upset, trying to be supportive.

Setting Expectations for Tough Conversations

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, I think in any type of transition, the first thing you say to that person is, “We’re going to have some tough conversations” because you can’t transition and hand a baton off and it go all, well, I mean, that’s not a possibility. So, “Hey, the great news is I think you are capable of this. The bad news is we’re going to have some big boy, big girl conversations about you didn’t pull this off like you needed to.”

And my whole thing is, please let me interrupt you quickly. Let’s not wait for our three month review and then we’ll go. “Now. There are two or three things I’m observing. I don’t like that.” If I see something, I want to walk into it immediately and say, “Now I may see this wrong, but look, here’s what I saw. Did I miss something?”

I love. Almost. You know, many years ago, Ken Blanchard wrote a great book. He’s a wonderful, wonderful person called “Management Walking Around” or something like that. I like leadership by walking around. And so if there’s something that Charlie, Linda Heron, Mark, my inner circle, people that I think is amiss, we talk about right now. We don’t wait for the right time or the right. The right time is now.

Creating Open Communication

And by the way, they have the same opportunity for me. In fact, when I’m done, I’ll look at them all the time and say, “Now what am I missing? What am I missing?” And a lot of times they’ll say, “Well, I think you’re missing this, John.” And we have this relationship that we can be very open and free with each other quickly. Because I think that the problem is never the problem. The problem is you didn’t solve it quick enough.

You can wait to tell me your victories, but you can’t wait to tell me your defeats. I want to hear those now. And the reason is most of the time. I remember one time with Charlie, things were not moving on at his side as quick as I wanted to on a book. And so one night, I was somewhere, I was traveling, and I called. I said, “Charlie, I said, I’m not catching. It’s been about a week and a half. I’m not getting anything from you on this book.”

And he said, “Yeah.” I said, “I’m in a writer’s block right now.” I said, “Well, tell me about it.” So he started talking about it. I promise you, in 20 minutes, I got him through the writer’s block. I said, “Well, here’s what you go. Here,” and just open it up for him, and then we’re done.

I said, “Now, let me tell you something, Charlie. How long have you carried that?” He said, “Well, I carried it for probably about a week.” I said, “We lost a week, Charlie.” Now Charlie is carrying it because he’s responsible, Charlie. He wants to bring it home himself. Well, of course I want that kind. I want people that want to bring it home, but I don’t want people who want to bring it home. And they’re delaying the process for three days. Bring it to me. Don’t bring it home. Bring it to me and let me see if I can jump in.

Building a Culture of Sharing

And I think we all know that, and we’re all comfortable with that. And it doesn’t bother me at all for them to look at me and say, “John, you know have you ever thought of doing this?” “Well, no, I haven’t.” So I like kind of the. I like the caring enough for a person that you don’t carry stuff, but you share stuff. I think that’s a culture that we’ve created, and it really serves us really well.

And I would say this. I would say they do this to me as much as I do that to them. I mean, they feel very at home to come in and say, “You know, I think there was a miss there.” And they said, “Yeah, well, let’s talk about it.” And I think that that’s very healthy.

And what. I’m a very impatient person. That’s one of my huge weaknesses. And I’m a get it done person. And if there’s some kind of delay over here and it’s because we’re not having conversation, that delay is a worthless delay. Let’s have conversation now and see if we can fix it now or at least start creating a way to fix it.

DAN MARTELL: The gold you just said for everybody, I want them to hear, this is the permission to catch it early. Like, just letting them know, I’d rather be in that mood.

JOHN MAXWELL: That’s so I remember with my first executive assistant, I said, “Let me tell you something. When you see me doing something you think I’m doing wrong, please tell me. I don’t need a historian. I don’t need somebody say, ‘You know what? When you did that four days ago, I wonder about that.’ Can I tell you, you didn’t help me at all. If you wonder about it, ask me.”

DAN MARTELL: Now while I’m doing it to stop.

JOHN MAXWELL: Me from doing it, because there’s a high possibility you saw something I didn’t see. I think that is very important. So I have to have people around me that know that I unconditionally love them but are secure. You know, if somebody is not secure, they probably would have a difficult time on our team because we’re going to have tough conversations.

But tough conversations are. They’re tough because we have a problem. They’re not tough because you’re a problem. And so there’s a difference. And so let’s deal with the issue and then can we please move on? I mean, do we now. Do we need to go to therapy and have three weeks of what we did? Three. I mean, because I am a. I am a fix it and move on, but you can’t look here and go there. And so I am. Once it’s fixed, do we have to talk about this anymore? Let’s go to the next step on.

Faith and Leadership

DAN MARTELL: That vision, I love the way you cued that up. Faith is a big part of obviously where you came from. But even at this event, all the people around you, there’s a lot of people that are struggling in the world right now that are still. They’re lacking their belief. What would you say to these people that have not come to God yet, that are still wondering where they.

JOHN MAXWELL: Gosh, Dan, you know, I’ve walked with God and had a relationship with him since I was 17, so for 60 years. So it’s hard for me to imagine my life without God. I mean, he is so essential. He’s the source of my life and he’s the joy of my life.

And I’m very careful. We don’t have Christian companies. Our coaching company is not a Christian. We have beautiful people from all kinds of backgrounds and cultures and faith, and they’re absolutely welcome. I value all of them because God values everybody. So I don’t value people that just do what I do or think. Like, I think I value everybody because God created them.

So for me to. I can’t imagine my life without God because he’s so much a part of my life. What I try to help people understand is this. You and I have. In fact, I want to talk about this tomorrow in one of my teachings. You and I have potential, giftedness, opportunities. And I love people who try to maximize. I try to maximize my potential. You try to maximize your potential. People that do well, they try to steward and maximize their potential.

The God Room Concept

But in my faith relationship with God, I understand there are things he can do that I cannot do. And it’s what I call “God room.” When I get to the top of my potential, it’s like the ceiling. It’s the best I can do, honestly. That’s God’s floor. And the moment that I understand that, when I get there, God can take over and he can do something in my life, for my life, through my life, that is so much more important and so much more helpful. And I just become extremely grateful and reliant upon him to be the difference maker. And I watch him be the difference maker. And when I need wisdom, I ask him.

I have a lot of friends. I have a beautiful atheist friend. And we were talking one day and I said, “I know you don’t believe in God. That’s okay. I said, I know you don’t believe in God, but you sure do miss him, don’t you?” Of course he misses him. You know, everybody misses God because they’re born to know him. They were born to have a relationship with him. And until they do, if they’re honest with themselves, there’s something in their life that just falls a little short of what they want. And I know that.

So what I try to do is just love people unconditionally and wait for the moment when they come to that realization, like “There is something more.” And when they do, my name’s John. I’m their friend. I say, “Well, I know what it is, and I could help you.” And I have incredible opportunities to help many, many, many people know God. And it’s a real honor, it’s a real joy. Because once that happens, then they see this incredible asset. I mean, it’s kind of like the God asset. I mean, okay, can you do something without him? Of course you can do something without.

Him, but it’s a lot easier with him.

The Gift of Caring for People

JOHN MAXWELL: Would you like for him to sit beside you and kind of have, do a little with you? And so it’s hard for me to manage my life without God because he’s been so important in my life.

But God really has given me a major gift of caring for people where they are and then helping them find God. And we’ve seen, literally, in my life, I’ve seen thousands and thousands of people really come into a relationship with him.

And that’s my greatest joy. I mean, if somebody said, “What’s your greatest joy?” My greatest joy is introducing somebody to him. Because once they know him, now we’re on a whole different level of change and transformation in a person’s life.

DAN MARTELL: So true. John, you’ve been an incredible example for me. And just there’s very few people that when I meet, I see a person like the character traits of just the way you love people. It’s just at first I was like, “It’s not possible.” And then I spend time with you. I’m like, “You really are that way.”

JOHN MAXWELL: I do love it.

DAN MARTELL: Yeah. And you don’t judge people because they were created by God. And the way you show up for your team and for your people at this event. And just for anybody you meet, just your curiosity, it’s… You’re an incredible role model for me. So I just want to thank you for being on the show.

God Brings the Right People

JOHN MAXWELL: Well, I want to thank you for being my friend, because we’re new friends and we’ve not been able to spend as much time together as I want. But I know God brought us together. I’m not trying to be mystical, but when I met you, I said, “Can I say one more thing?” Yeah.

In 1981, I began to see what I thought God had planned for my life, the vision. And it was very overwhelming, and it was much bigger than me. And so I was very open with him. And I said, “I’m willing to be obedient, but it’s way over my head. And the only way that that could ever be pulled off God is you’re going to have to bring people into my life that are bigger than me and better than me to help me. You’re just going to have to. I don’t have that kind of capacity.”

So I began in 1981, every day, asking God, every day, which I’ve done for many years now, “Send me people that, you know, I need, that I can’t do it without them. Send me. And I just send me some winners. I got to have some winners.”

And over these many years now, gosh, that would have been 43 years ago, he’s done that. And I can point to hundreds of people where I just say, “You’re a gift from God to me.” And when I met you, I knew you were a gift of God for me. I knew I didn’t deserve you. I didn’t even find you. Our good friend Ed Mylett kind of put us together. And of course, Ed’s one of those people in my life, too.

But I looked at you and God said, “Yeah, yeah, Dan’s one of the guys. He’s a gift to you.” And it’s very humbling because then what happens when all these great things happen that are happening in my life that are not kind of beyond explainable? There is absolutely no pride factor at all. I mean, I’m proud of what we’re accomplishing.

But there’s… Because I look around and say the only reason that happened is because God sent people into my life to help me make it happen. And so I get very grateful for the people that he sent me. But I never, ever have taken it personal, like, “Look what I did,” or, “Look, I built this team.” I just kind of accepted the team that he brought to me.

And that’s going to be too mystical for a lot of people. But I would just tell them that if that with a relationship with God, you’ll see things happen that you’ll never explain, but you sure will appreciate.

DAN MARTELL: So good. John, thanks. Thanks for being here.

JOHN MAXWELL: Thanks, man. Great.

DAN MARTELL: Appreciate it.

JOHN MAXWELL: Blessings.

DAN MARTELL: Amazing.

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