Huberman Lab: w/ David Choe on the Power of Creative Transmutation (Transcript)

Okay. For anyone who’s watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Andrew.

DAVID CHOE: All good? Yeah, all good. All good.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You knew my last name.

DAVID CHOE: You know what I was thinking about my friend Adam. All good. That, you know, that used to skate with, I think, Adam Krone. Yeah. Yeah, that’s—I was just thinking, like, Upper Playground. Yeah, Upper Playground. Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He worked. His dad owns Krone Shoes.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: In Palo Alto.

DAVID CHOE: He wants to reconnect with you, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Adam Krone and I grew up together.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah. I was just—

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out, we skateboarded. And then he started Upper Playground. The Walrus.

DAVID CHOE: That’s it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He’s your homie.

DAVID CHOE: I used to work for—I did tons of drafts for Upper Playground. So does anyone call you Andy?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: My skateboard friends call me Andy, so.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, but that’s it. Like, no one in the medical, like, science room.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Not anymore. No, not really.

On Color, Life, and Living Fully

DAVID CHOE: That would have, like, you—you start your podcast and you do your—you’re like, I’m Andrew Huberman. Like, I’m going to be all over the place because I’m nervous being here right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore, so I’m going to be all over the place if that. It’s going to be messy. It’s going to be sloppy.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: This is your canvas, man.

DAVID CHOE: Well, I’m just meeting you. I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible. I hate the black. I hate it. Like, the studio. This you with the black T-shirt, the black mugs, the black—like, I don’t like it for you, you know, because I used to only wear black because I was like, ah, I’m a painter. I’m always dirty. I don’t want to, like, you know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater? And it’s like, okay, that’s fine.

But I just—colors are very important in not just painting, but, like the palette for your house or, you know, like most people talk about in the modern age, modern man is, you know, and I—and I just make sh*t up so you could correct. You’re like the facts guy. But I feel like most people, human beings alive today are going to die a very—it’s mean to say boring, but just the same death, right?

You’ll most likely die laying down in a bed or hospice or in a hospital, but, you know, it’s just like, no one’s dying—like, I know there’s other countries where there’s war and famine, but I’m saying modern cities, you know, like, there’s not like a hero’s death, right? So it’s just—it’s all the same.

And then you just, you know, the drive here in traffic, it’s like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car. And then you get to their house, and their house is a beige or a white, and you’re just like, we only got one of these, you know, whatever your views on the afterlife are. But this is it. This is it. Like, this is it.

And it’s just like, people get mad of like, oh, I spilled paint on the floor. Like, I got a scratch. I’m like, paint everything. Paint your f*ing car. Paint and make your—my kids drew my sweater. It’s my favorite, you know? Like, I like that sweater, you know?

So I walk in here and I go, f*, dude. Like—and I’m projecting on you now. Like, when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life. And I don’t know where you’re at because I’m just meeting you, but it’s like everything is black. Gone black. Like, black on the black T-shirt, black mug, black. And it’s like, white T-shirt for my dream. My—my—selfishly, my dream is like, this podcast would start instead of saying, hey, I’m Andrew Huberman, like, Stanford scientist that is just—hi, I’m Andy. And then like, you—can you Photoshop like, a white T-shirt on?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I’d wear a white T-shirt.

DAVID CHOE: I don’t know. I don’t like black. For me, I have hardly ever black clothes anymore. I want to add as much color because I just—maybe that’s the season I am in my life or the time I’m in. But, yeah, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that’s providing a lot of joy in my life.

And so I want to say to you, I’m meeting you for the first time. I’ve never seen you clean shaven, but I imagine—I mean, your beard and facial hair, to me look very cute. You’re very handsome. Your voice, when I hear your voice immediately is soothing. And I feel like this is a very kind person.

Like, I once again, without having, like, now I’ve met you for, like, five minutes, I’m like, oh, this guy’s super awesome. But, you know, like, these kind of parasocial relationships where I could go even—I don’t know how hard you want to go today, but, like, it’s like, I meet people all the time, and then I meet them, and it’s like, I’ve already met you. Like, we’ve already talked.

I don’t know what your views on telepathy and spirituality. And it’s like, it’s just everyone will meet. Everything’s going to happen the way it’s going to happen, and everyone’s going to meet who they need to meet. It’s like all energy, right? You put this, like, what? You know, I could sit there and go, why does Andrew Huberman want to meet me right now? And it’s like, well, what am I putting out in the universe? And what is he putting out in the universe and art? Do the souls connect in that way? You know?

On Care and Connection

So I just want—I said, if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how cute he is, how soothing and relaxing, and, like, there’s something very—this is the invisible ingredient in, like, everything in art is did the person care, right? Like, I don’t care how skilled and crafted, whatever. Like, did the person care?

And, like, when you do stuff in your voice, the tone, the frequency that’s hitting my—my soul is like, oh, I don’t know. Everything that guy saying, he’s using some big words, but I feel like he cares. And so I said, if I ever meet you, and I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don’t know your whole backstory.

But I’m like, also, I project a lot, and I make a lot of assumptions, which that’s a defect that I’m working on. But I just wanted to say, like, even though you had a horrific, traumatic childhood, like, the fact that you’re here, you’re alive, and that you’re doing all this good stuff is, like, it makes me emotional because I’m like, I don’t even know you, and I appreciate what you’re doing, and you’re still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right?

So I think that’s it for now. But I just wanted to tell you all that because I—I feel that way about you, and I, you know, I like—I’m a big—sometimes you feel stuff and you’re like, I’ll text it to them or maybe, you know, and I just go, no. If I feel that, I just want to—especially if it’s love and positivity.

I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating, but it’s because I like you. Like, I wouldn’t if I didn’t. If I, like—if I’m like, I don’t give a sh*t about this guy and I don’t want a relationship with—I would never say anything, but I’m like this. I don’t know what the science behind it, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right? It can’t. Like, just you walk—we’re walking into a black hole right now. Like, I don’t know. Anyways, that’s—that’s what I wanted to say.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, man. Well, I’ll take that in. Thank you. Lot there. Thank you.

DAVID CHOE: Were you able to take it in?

The South Bay Connection

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. I didn’t show you. When you call me Andy, it’s a different part of my persona just because names carry a lot.

DAVID CHOE: Oh, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank you for that. I’m going to take that in. And, you know, I get this little voice in my head that’s saying, I want to be very clear. You know, my—I had some rough, rough aspects of my childhood. I’ve made good amends with my parents, so we’re good now. I say that to, you know, for all the reasons people can assume.

But here’s the thing. I knew somehow that we’d eventually cross paths. I just didn’t know when. So you say the telepathy thing for me, I was a postdoc at Stanford. That comes after PhD. You do, like, five years. It’s kind of like a residency.

And I’m from the South Bay, and I didn’t want to go back to the South Bay because, as you know, no disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like, which normally are in cities, like art, live music. It used to be like that Grateful Dead were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the Edge on California Avenue.

There was a lot of interesting things about politics, but it became very right angles when the tech industry really exploded there. And in 2007, when I was a postdoc, was when you were muraling at Facebook. I learned that later. But that was a time when I was back there for my science career, and I was pretty miserable being close to home again. Honestly, I didn’t want to ever go.

DAVID CHOE: Back there for a while.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It was not healing. But when I learned your story about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like, oh, there was at least one other person here who was in the kind of spiritual, emotional fight with what the South Bay is.

And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian MacKaye from Minor Threat. It turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that, of course, and he had skated some of the same ditches we had. And so there’s a history of people being really frustrated with being there.

DAVID CHOE: Really good Vietnamese food.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Is there really? Yeah.

DAVID CHOE: Oh, in Palo Alto or the South Bay?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah.

DAVID CHOE: Oh, yeah. Castro Street, Mountain View.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. And it’s changed a lot. But take me back to 2007. I don’t know how you feel about historical—

The Facebook Mural Story

DAVID CHOE: Okay, so we’re definitely—I’m definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that, but because my—I’m older, I’m 49, and my attention span is just completely fried. Going to—I’ll just say right now I’m going to get a lot of dates wrong. Like, I’m not like, you know, things. People are like that, you know, like—

ANDREW HUBERMAN: 2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay call the neck of University Avenue right before it goes under the train tracks. As soon as you’re on the other side of the train tracks, Caltrain, it becomes Palm Drive, and it’s up to Stanford.

And so those offices now are Palantir, which catches a lot of heat for other reasons, but those offices right as you go under the train tracks, for us, there was a curb cut right there, and there was a board slide thing. And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices. And years later, I heard David Choe was muraling at Facebook. So how did that come to be?

DAVID CHOE: I’m going to be, like, very sloppy, like I said. And it’s maybe some of the stuff—because sometimes the way I treat talking and journalism and podcasts is like, it’s like a story in my own head, someone else is like, “just shut the f* up and answer the question.” Right.

But like, for me, when I paint, I don’t sketch. I go straight to finish. And I—so sometimes I’m figuring out what I’m trying to tell you because you asked me a question that’s very direct, but the way it went into my head was very abstract because I’m—so if you let me do a little paint mixing, I hope I’ll answer your question.

But do you know Pee-wee? Pee-wee? Like, I’m wearing it today. Do you know Pee-wee’s Playhouse?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I knew. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. I met him actually once.

DAVID CHOE: Paul Reubens.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah. At a photo show of Mike Muller and Sage, who draws butterflies on Mike Muller’s sharks and animals. And Pee-wee Herman in his thing, in his suit. The whole thing walked up. Laird Hamilton was there.

DAVID CHOE: Nice.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And he walks up to Laird Hamilton. There are a bunch of people around. Everyone’s trying to get to Laird. Laird’s like a—this was 2017, and it was in West Hollywood. And Pee-wee Herman walks up and he goes, “I have to meet you.” And Laird’s like—and the best thing is, Laird just goes, “Oh, hello. What’s your name?” Like, typical Laird. Like, Laird’s a real gentleman always, you know.

DAVID CHOE: You didn’t know who Pee-wee Herman was?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I couldn’t tell if he knew or not. And he’s like, “I really wanted to meet you.” This kind of thing. And I was like, no way. And he had the whole thing, like, the shiny lips and the thing. And I was like, that’s Pee-wee Herman.

DAVID CHOE: That’s amazing. I love that. Yeah. All right, well, I mean, I’m definitely going to have to tell you my Pee-wee Herman story at some point.

The Holy Trinity of Childhood Art

DAVID CHOE: For me, art as a kid growing up, like the trifecta, my holy trinity of children’s education, art, entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then, of course, Pee-wee Herman.

I mean, Pee-wee Herman had Laurence Fishburne, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like, Danny Elfman. Like, he just—he was like, the ringleader of all this creativity. And he had, like, Mecca, like a high mecha hiney ho.

And do you remember the—do you remember the secret word? The secret word was like, if anyone our age that’s watching Pee-wee’s Playhouse, it was like, “Today’s secret word is—” I don’t know. What’s our secret word today, Rob? Microphone. Microphone. And if—if someone says microphone, scream real loud. So can we do that today?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Sure.

# The South Bay and Early Struggles

All right. I’m counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest, and you don’t take a pee until we take a pee. We got an agreement on that? Okay. All right.

I hated the South Bay. I hate… Like, I just… I’m… I have all the typical artist traits. I’m clinically depressed, I’m bipolar. I have all the processed addictions: food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism. Like, I don’t have… Thank God, I don’t have any of the chemical addictions because I’m allergic to everything. But severe OCD, severe antisocial traits. You know, I just… Highly sensitive, you know.

So I just coming here today, like, you asked me, and I kept text… Like, I know we did this, like, dance for a few months. And I… If I’m just being honest with you, like, I don’t… I don’t know how to not be me, you know. And sometimes, like, I put a mask on and I’m like, “I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today.” But I… You know, I didn’t even meet you yet.

And so every time I’ve done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like, I don’t know, I just feel comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast. But anytime anyone else asks me, it’s such a… I know who I am. And sometimes I don’t, and sometimes I figure that out. And it’s… Sometimes you meet people on the street, at Pavilions, or at the supermarket, and they’re like, “I…” And it’s like this parasocial thing where it’s like, “I know you, I relate to you.”

The Parasocial Connection

And there’s something about that where, you know, the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything. And my parents aren’t going to listen to this. My brothers don’t listen to… Like, so in a weird way, like, you’re going to know more about me today than my own family. So the parasocial thing is… Even it’s real, right? Like, placebo effect is real. Like, all these things.

So I, you know, I got here early. I went for a walk down to those streets, and then it’s like just this beautiful view of the ocean. And I… It happens every time. It’s like, it… I know what it makes me sound like. It’s like, “Oh, this guy’s, like, very unstable and unhinged.” And I’d be the first to admit, it’s like I cry all the time now. I don’t know what it was just like, maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here. Just knowing that I haven’t talked in a long time and there’s no upside for me.

And I told you that I was like… I go on these podcasts, and I think Howard Stern, like, 15, 20 years ago, and Joe Rogan, the multiple times I’ve been on his show, I think are the only two radio shows, podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing. Everyone else, every time you’ve ever heard me on any other podcast, it’s either severely edited, or they cut out huge chunks of it, or they didn’t even air it at all.

So I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so there’s something that went, you know, in the… The narcissistic traits where, like, “I’m the f*ing greatest artist in the world” to like, “Oh, my God, I’m a piece of shit.” Like, it just, you know, it’s just like this thing.

From Narcissism to Quiet Life

And before, when I was younger is like, everyone has to see everything. Everyone has… Like, I think I’m so important that everyone has to see everything that I create: painting, podcast, book, like, whatever it is. And then it went like, my problem with my shit is it’s all or nothing. So it’s hard for me to find the middle.

And so at this point now, I’m like, 49. I live a very quiet dad life. You know, I’m a family guy. And there’s just thousands of paintings no one’s ever seen. There’s hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I’ve never put out. There’s books I’ve written, there’s TV shows, movies that I’ve made that it’s just… I don’t…

Before the ego and the narcissist… Like, you need to put this out because you’re important, and everyone needs to see how important you are. And now the flip side to that, and maybe, maybe it’s not healthy either, is like, I know who I am. I’m comfortable with myself. And I don’t need, you know, I’m artificially blocked from everything. Like, I don’t have my own password to my social media. I don’t… I have blocks on my phone, so I can’t access the Internet.

So it’s like, I do put all these things into place to, like, protect myself because I’m a sensitive person. So, you know, as an artist, there’s certain isms and stories. It’s like, “Oh, starving artists, you’re not going to make any money.” Like, struggling artists, there’s these stories that people say, and then you buy into them.

Teachers and Influences

But I had… I had a few teachers along the way that influenced me that, like, you know, there’s like just certain moments happen in your life that live in your head rent free. And I have a lot of those. And so one of the stories is, you know, I’m 49. It’s like, you have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere. What the f* am I doing in the 408? Like, this is… What am I doing in Cupertino?

Like, like in my head the story’s written that you’re a f*ing… You know, and I hadn’t done shit, right? But in my head I’m like, “You’re the greatest artist ever in Gilroy,” you know? Like what, you know what I mean? No disrespect to Gilroy. Like the garlic capital of Garlic Fest. Garlic ice cream, you know.

So there’s a story in my head that it’s like, I got to get to New York City, right? Like, I got to… Like, I couldn’t… I couldn’t get any, like, leeway in Los Angeles. I’m born and raised in LA and I just… I couldn’t, you know. And… And so I… And now I look back, if I do an inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it’s always found in the mundane. It’s always found in cold temperatures. It’s always found when there’s no Wi-Fi. It’s always found in a suburb of…

It’s like this story, like, when I get to f*ing New York and I’m going to be part of this movement, it’s never that. Like, it’s nice to romanticize that, but it’s these moments of brilliance. Like someone, whoever’s listening right now, they’re like, “I got this and then there’s like a…” And then I’m going to get to this, and then I’m going to meet this person and I’m going to do that.

And it’s like, bro, I was f*ing living in San Jose for seven years. I met this wonderful lady. She was my girlfriend for seven years. But, like, at that prime, I was 23, and I was like… And for me, the stakes are so high because I…

My Mother’s Blind Faith

So one of the teachers was my mother, right? My mother is hardcore born again Christian. So science does not enter the picture, right? It’s like blinders on. And through her, I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ. That’s it. There’s no… There’s no…

So wait, you’re telling me there was an actual ark with two animals and all the two animals didn’t kill the other? And, like, you know, and there was an Adam and there was a snake that talked. It’s like, “Yeah,” like, no hesitation. So she gave me that gift of like, like, “Hey, science, like facts. No, blind…” Like, just, holy shit. Like, nothing could falter. And you’re like, “You’re f*ing stupid. You’re ignorant.” Like… And she’s… But she’s not. She’s a bright woman.

And now I look back and like, I just met you. You’re a brilliant guy. And I sit here and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet. You know some of the smartest people on the planet. And they’re all dumb. They’re all like, idiots. You’re like, “Wait, you’re a genius. You have photographic memory. You created this company and you made some of the dumbest decisions I’ve ever…” You know, it’s like… It’s like, “Yeah, you’re really good at this, but you don’t know relationships or you don’t know…”

So… So my mom taught me through just not anything, but just watching her of just this absolute belief. And… And one of her beliefs was, “You’re my son.” You know, this is some Jesus shit. Like me who’s like, how I explained this is fing neurotic mess. Like, growing up in an unstable family and all that. Got fing molested. Every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like, just chaotic because they were working and I was just like, left out in the wild, abandoned. Spiritual abuse, all this.

And she’s just like, in the same way she believed in God and Jesus. She’s like, “You’re the one. You’re the greatest artist.” And I’m like 5 years old. I’m like, “What the f* are you talking about?” She’s like, “No one’s better than you. No one’s better than you. You’re the best. You’re going to be the great…” You know, “Your name’s David.” Like a lot of Koreans named after Bible. She’s like, “I named you after King David. You’re going to be a king.”

And I go, but now in hindsight I’m like, and yes, King David beat Goliath, but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and like failed a lot, you know. She didn’t tell me all that shit, you know. So she’s, she’s raising me, she’s brainwashing me. It’s like, “You’re the best, you’re the greatest.”

The Artist’s Path

And then you, you know, I’ve met other artists where it’s like everyone had this, has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, “You’re nothing, you’re a piece of shit. You’re the worst.” You know, “Who the f* do you think you are?” I had the opposite. I had a mom. Just… It didn’t matter. It didn’t matter. Like, “But mom, look at how horrible…” It’s like, “You’re the greatest.”

And so it’s like at some point I hate myself. I have like a, such a low self opinion of myself. I’m… I’m just down on myself. Just this kid just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me and, and I, and I’m like, “Of course she says that she’s my mom,” you know. Like, but she just brainwashed me into believing that I’m the best.

And I would, as a trickster and a shapeshifter, I would… You know what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words. That’s why they’re such brilliant artists and that’s why they can make great music and all this. Because they can’t… I can’t… You know, like, I’m going to probably talk to you for a few hours today and I’m going to leave here feeling misunderstood. I’m going to be like, “F*, did I…” Because I’m not…

In the same way I can like translate what I feel in a painting. It’s very like… It’s like when people describe like ayahuasca or something, they’re like, try to describe and they’re like, the words that you’re trying to look for don’t exist for what you just went through. So that’s kind of the why, why I get really self judgmental but I’m like, this woman…

And then, you know, my dad, he loves me, but he’s like, he’s all right. He’s okay, you know? And I’d watch my mom, who was just, like, a brutal businesswoman, you know, and she would transform. You know, I spent most of my life either poor or middle class. You know, like, being wealthy came later, but so, you know, we were on welfare a lot. Businesses burned down in LA riots. Like, I saw my parents struggle a lot, you know, but then they would do good.

The Gambler’s Mentality

And they had the gambler’s mentality, which a lot of Asians do, and I have that, too, which is just… I don’t know if this is true, but I heard that Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women. Like, most women don’t have the gambling gene the same way men do. So my mom would gamble, like, flipping houses, or, like, not in a casino, but, like, just huge… Like, huge swings, which you’re like, I grew up with a fearless woman, you know. But… So we wouldn’t have stuff.

But then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on, like, fake jewelry, cubic zirconium, because she’s about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money and just… Just insane lying and… But hardcore Christian. So, like, the hypocrisy there. Like, I’m definitely… I’m trying to work on my own, breaking out. So it’s like, I’m going to be hypocritical in this interview, and at the end, hopefully, I’ll be able to correct any exaggerations or lies, but that’s a new tool that I have. I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know, I lied to tell the truth, you know, all those things.

So I’d watch my mom transform from, like, a poor woman. The mentality was she’s like, “My… My son is the greatest artist in the world.” And, like, I’m… You know, I’m coming out of my Toyota hatchback with the broken window, you know. But I… When I go in this meeting right now, you’re not going to see that. So she transformed herself into this rich, powerful woman and just, like, get… Like, I’m… I’m just sitting there, a kid in the corner, watching this woman get what she wants. I’m like, “Holy f. What the f was that performance?”

And then just coming out, and I’m like, “But, mom, that’s not… Like, those things you said, that wasn’t real. That’s not true.” And she’s like, “Yeah, they don’t need to know that.” And I’m like, “But we just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments, and you’re not supposed to lie.” And it’s like all this, like, confusion.

Meeting Sean Parker

And then I meet Sean Parker, who, you know, just the sweetest kid. You know, just… He started emailing me right when he started Napster. He goes, “I wish I have all the emails.” I keep… I keep certain emails and voice messages. And I just… I just… That’s my own nostalgia. But, like, I have a… I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying thank you for getting me into watercolors. I was like, “Dude, my f*ing hero.” Like, yes. Like, it’s such a good feeling.

I have a voice message from Pee-wee Herman, which I’ll share later. And all my early emails with Sean Parker I kept just because it was… He’s such an interesting, like, wonderful… I know, like, the image of him. But, like, I… We don’t talk, like, as… Like, we used to, but I still consider him a friend, and I’m forever grateful to him.

But… So he… I met him at a time when, like, I mean, I don’t even know how to… I mean, like, just complete disgrace and shame to my family. You know, it’s like the immigrant story. Talk to any immigrant. Why the f* did you leave your home to come to another country? Because it was shitty there. That’s it. You’re not born in a country and you’re like, “Dude, let’s leave,” right? The only reason why anyone’s here is because it was shitty where you were at, right?

The Immigrant Work Ethic

So then they all… It doesn’t matter if you’re Asian or Mexican, whatever. You came here for a better life. And what does that mean? Work your a off. So we’re in a nation of workaholics, right? This is an entire country of workaholics. So

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, but I had a good sound drop from.

DAVID CHOE: If you skated, you definitely had a—

ANDREW HUBERMAN: There were some kids in our crew that—

DAVID CHOE: What did you tag? Come on.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, because I had friends who were graphers, and they boxed us out, you know, Undershadows kids.

DAVID CHOE: You never did graffiti?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, but we can talk about this later. I want to hear from you now. But later, we should talk about Orphan and the Undershadows crew, which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, yeah, I heard of him.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, he was a good friend of mine. But anyway, I didn’t graffiti.

DAVID CHOE: Okay.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So I drew on my grip tape.

DAVID CHOE: All right, that’s good.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But no, I wasn’t a tagger. Wasn’t graffiti guy.

The Origins of Creativity and Identity

DAVID CHOE: Yeah. So I’m out doing that, and, you know, we can have a conversation about creativity and this and that, and it’s like, I can’t—it’s very hard to talk about. Because it’s like, can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa? Yeah, I know how to do all that. I know how to. I went to school. I taught myself. I watched videos. You could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something—that’s a teachable skill.

But creativity, where does that come from? Are you just born with it? Is it from deprivation? It’s like, I can only share what my path is. And it’s like the embarrassment. You’re Asian. You need to get a 4.0. You need to get into UCLA. You need to be a doctor or lawyer.

And it’s like, me, I’m the middle child. Me and my two brothers, long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk. “Why are you doing that white sht?” You know, like. And then he’s got Asian kids that are into heavy—you know, there was no identity, right? And then it’s just lost. Just like, what the f is—you know, we don’t belong anywhere. Just caught.

The Asian depictions in media is like Long Duk Dong. Asians have small d*cks, they can’t drive, they’re good at math. It’s just—nothing’s good, right? And I’m just trying to figure out my way in this world.

And I remember Sean just was attracted to whatever little art I’d start getting some notice in Juxtapoz. And I was starting to do graffiti everywhere. And he’s like, “I want that. Whatever that is, I want that. I want to be part of that.”

And I forgot what my painting—it was like, right when I couldn’t sell a painting. And then all of a sudden, they were selling for a couple thousand, and he’s like—and he was a teenager still, and he goes, “I want your art. But the problem is I’m being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a lawsuit.” You know, I mean, whatever. It ended up the way it ended up.

But I remember he goes, “I’m getting”—he showed me a screenshot or whatever. He’s like, “I’m being sued for $1 trillion right now, so I can’t really afford your art, but I’m going to get it, you know?”

So we started this relationship, and he would send me these crazy abstract texts or emails of what he wanted me to paint. And then he started another company called Plaxo, and he’s like—and then finally, you’re catching me in the South Bay.

Moving to San Jose and Meeting Sean Parker

You know, I met this girl, we fell in love, and I moved to San Jose, just the most culturally dead place. And everyone’s rollerblading, working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or some tech startup. And they’re like, “We’re cool because we have a trampoline and a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want. And we have bunk beds.” So you could just keep working, you know?

And so I meet Sean, and he’s like, “Dude, we’re starting this company called Facebook, and we finally have some money. And dude, this is—where are you at?”

And he didn’t know all this, but I just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because I had beaten up an undercover security guard. I was 27 when I got—and I owed everyone money. I owed my girlfriend money. I owed—and so I needed money bad. And I was in a lot of trouble. I didn’t know how I was going to pay everyone back because it’s really hard to sell a painting, you know.

But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then all the art that I did in jail—I used to work for Vice magazine. I say “work” because I never got paid.

But, you know, I—they didn’t pay you?

No, I—I think people, if anyone’s listening, this is a little side tangent. And it’s going to definitely sound like OCD, like I’m keeping a list. And maybe I am, because I don’t think about it. But I was sitting the other day and I go, they all owe me money. Everyone I’ve ever worked for, ever.

The Reality of Never Getting Paid

Like, people—I got to get—someone develops a skill, like, “I’m good at songwriting or this or that.” And then they go, “Well, I got—the young people, that’s my craft. I got to get paid.” I go, I never got paid.

I worked for Nike, Levi’s, RVCA, Giant Robot, Vice, f*ing even my friends Steve Aoki, and 88rising. If I sit here, I’ll name everyone, but either they didn’t pay me what they said, or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me, or they just never paid me, you know?

And I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice, and he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw—and he’s like, “Hey”—and it was all punk rock at Vice when it was the big format. And he’s like, “Dude, send me a drawing of cops beating up this.” And I did it fast. I did. He’s like, “I need it by tomorrow.” And I was like, “I can do it.”

And he’s like, he just was like, “Hey, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster.” And I go, “But I’m not—” He’s like, “Just do it.”

And at one point, that was another figure that resonated—my mom—of like, the rules, reality doesn’t apply. I’m sitting there going, “Wait, but I’m not a journalist. I didn’t fact check anything.” And there was some issues of Vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman’s name, a black guy’s name, you know, just made up names, articles just to fill up pages.

And I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, street fashion, you know, the do’s and don’ts. And I’m just like, “You can do that.” And I had already been groomed for that because of my mom. It’s like, no, reality doesn’t apply. You just—my mom thinks I’m the best artist. And now here’s—you know, so Sean’s like, “Okay.”

Purgatory in San Jose

And so I’m in what I feel is like purgatory. The 408, San Jose, Milpitas, you know, I’m just like, “What the f* is this?” And I’m telling myself, “I got to get to—when I get to New York, it’s like this golden gate, like end of the golden road, like Wizard of Oz. When I get there, then something’s—I’m going to get discovered. And then someone’s going to be like—”

And because what is it? You know, like what—people, like, “What is—” And I go, I am—I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be a very hard, judgmental hater to myself.

And so I take this so seriously. What we’re doing here today is talking. I mean, it’s mostly me talking. I could see that, but it’s like we’re having a conversation, but I think without sounding—it’s like, I think it’s important. That’s why I’m here.

I’m like, why? I feel like I trust you even though I just met you. But like, yeah, I f*ing puked down the street. Because I get—I go, “What’s the upside?” I’m going to talk and then maybe I say something that I didn’t mean, or I say it the wrong way or it gets clipped weird or edited. And I go—and I go, “I think it’s important. I want to come. I want to talk to you.”

And that’s how I feel about my art. So what is that? What is art? What is creativity?

Art as a Solitary Sport

And for me, it’s like, I think sports are very gay. Especially skateboarding. If I never played sports, I would have never seen another man’s penis, you know, like, then in my time in sports, it was very rough.

Because I wasn’t—I tell—I told this to any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. “I suck at drawing.” And I go, “Why did you do that? Why did you immediately shoot yourself in—who said that? Did someone else say that or did you say that?” They start with saying something negative.

And I go—and I go, “That’s exactly what I say.” If they try to teach me how to throw a free throw, I go, “Oh, this is going to suck.” And they go, “Why did you do that?”

And so for me, growing up, I grew up in a lot of black neighborhoods where the second—you know, I don’t know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I f up, it’s like, “Look at the Chinese kid fing try,” you know? So I go, “All right, you know what? I’m not even going to try it.” You know?

And it’s like, “Well, you should just come out like five in the morning when no one was there,” you know? But I was so sensitive. I was like, “I don’t want to.”

So I did things in the—you know, art is a solitary sport. For the most part, you know, I’m not—there’s no Rob there. It’s just me. Even in the thing, it’s like this—”Don’t look at my sketchbook.” And but in here, I can f* up and fix, erase, whatever.

But so in sports, you know, it’s like you’re slapping guys’ asses, you’re taking showers with them. You’re doing all this male bonding stuff. You’re just spending a lot of times with other men, right? And I’m like, “Oh, God.”

What is the feeling? I’m trying to isolate the feeling. What—and I remember because I don’t—I tell this stuff not to be, like, “Feel sorry for me” or “I’m a victim.” I don’t feel like that. I mean, I’m just—I’m telling you what happened.

And part of it is you do—what would you rather—would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary? You know, like, these kind of—and luckily I had both happen, you know. I’ve been beaten to an inch of my life. I’ve had broken bones. I’ve been stabbed, I’ve been burned. I’ve been—everything physically you can think of. And I’m still here, right?

So there’s not much—in—because I have my mom’s delusion. When I talk to Joe and he’s shorter than me. But I know he could probably—logically, I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background, but in my head, I’m like, “I’m pretty sure I could kick his ass.” And he would f*ing—and that’s just the way I walk through life.

I still believe in Santa Claus. People go, “I can’t believe I just said that.” I don’t—I think that’s the first time publicly I’ve ever said that.

The Santa Claus Revelation

DAVID CHOE: I just remember there’s—I don’t know, it’s changed now, but I remember when I was a kid, it was around six or seven when they start going, there’s no fing Santa. But I was 8, and I was like—and they’re like, how dumb are you? And I understand this reflects back to my mom and Jesus. I go—and they go, but you’ve literally never got any presents from Santa. How? And I’d go to shame. I’d go, because I’m a bad kid. I cussed. I was like, I stole stuff from the supermarket, you know, like—and they’re like, hey, fface, Santa’s not real.

And I just was like, but he is. I believe that he is. And I believe—I go, there’s—him not giving me a present is like, because I put him in this God category. Maybe he’s not God, but maybe he’s a God, like a demigod or something. And they go, how is he? How does he know if you’re naughty or nice? I go, telepath. How does he—how does he get every f*ing present to every kid in that time? I’m like, oh, he’s a mutant. He can multiply. He can make copies of himself. How does he get through that tiny chimney and go teleport?

Like, I just—it’s not even a question. I just know, I believe it. And I don’t care how stupid you think, like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it’s just like, I just believe that. And you can’t say anything to make me not believe that. That’s my blind faith that I got from my mom.

So like every Christmas, I’m 50, I’m almost 50, I’m a f*ing middle aged man. That—and I go, maybe, maybe this is the year I’m going to—but now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me, giving me nothing, gave me everything, right?

The Journal Betrayal

So I’m sitting there and I’m drawing, but I have that story in my head too. Like, I suck. Oh, f*. That doesn’t look like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird, you know? And then at some point to this day, all the physical and emotional pain—sorry, just the physical pain—like, it passes. I’ve broken bones, I’ve had my face just pummeled, like, just where you wouldn’t reckon, disfigured. But it passes. And if I think back, I don’t remember it.

But the pain that stays is like heartbreak, you know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal because he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it started with, if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. And it was like we were 8 years old, 7 years old, just, you know, “Today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons. The end,” you know, it was like that, like a little kid you know, but he’s like, you have to do it. “Goonies was cool,” you know, so we kept the thing.

But then he never asked to read it. He just wanted us to do it. And I was like, oh. So I started, like, getting more brave. I was like, I really like this girl at school. And, like—and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing—because my brothers don’t give a shit. Like—but then the thought of, like, what if someone ever read this?

So I was, like, opening myself up and just letting—and I was like, oh, my God. Like, it felt so good. Like—like, I can’t tell anyone. Like, I’m having these kind of feelings or, like, you know, like, I f*ing hate dad. You know, like, you know, whatever. And I would take the bottom drawer out of my desk out, and I would hide it under there. And I shared a room with my brother, so I always did it when he—you know, I thought I was being secretive.

And I was somewhere between 7, 8, 9. It just, you know, as you get better at writing and I got more—once I got more comfortable knowing that no one—I just started writing everything. Like, my brother—f*ing fart smell. Like, I wish—you know, just, like, everything I would write, just—just completely.

And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it. And it—I remember my face just, like—it felt so hot. Like—like I felt like someone had just, like, ultimate betrayal. And it was like being naked. That’s why I bring up the—like, I felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering, like, slapping. Like, it was the most vulnerable.

Like they were being so merciless. “You like her and you did that. I can’t believe you,” you know, because I wrote everything in that journal. And I thought I was going to die from shame and embarrassment. And they, you know, like, the way kids are brothers can be, it was merciless. And they made fun of me for years for that.

Finding Artistic Courage

And in the same way, my face was disfigured and I’ve had physical abuse and all that, I lived through it. And I was like, I’m still here. And so why the f* am I going to be a pussy when I draw? When I draw? No, more—like, I’m going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist. Oh, I’m going to draw, like, you know, like, okay, that’s fine. You’re, like, trying to figure out how to work with tools and—but that’s fine. Skill, craft, great.

But like, this, like, showing you, like, so there’s—I had been trained now for heartbreak, right? Like, a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated, bullied, rejected. And then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like, “Yes, we like that.” And so they never grow. They do that same verse, that same flow forever.

And then you got people like Andre 3000. They’re like, I don’t care. I’m going to—I don’t care what—you know, I’m going to do flute shit. It’s like, well, we don’t like that. I was like, I—I don’t care. I’m an artist. I’m going to—you got someone like Flea who’s like, I’m going to just do performance art. And I’m like, I don’t even like half that shit, but I just love them, because they’re—and I go, how f*ing brave is that? How brave is that?

But I remember just to this day, right, I am a very successful, established artist, and yet today there’s people like, “That’s the f*ing worst art I’ve ever seen. That’s the—” and I go, cool. Like, but—but if you don’t have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on account. Like to pour your—that’s you. That’s your soul. And someone’s like—and then especially if you’re trying to sell it, like, “No, thanks.”

You know, so to have a guy like Sean Parker, who’s younger than me, but just not even the art, he’s just like, I like you. Like, whatever that is. And then I want to change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg.

Meeting Facebook

And so I meet him with his flip flops and, you know, I meet the whole crew and I—and I go, what do you want me to do? He’s like, I want you to fing paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared when I want everyone to just be like, we’re not MySpace, we’re not eBay, we’re not—I want them to be horrified when they come in here. I want you to just fing paint the microwave. Like, everything.

And I go indoors, right? And he goes, yeah. And I go, all right, so just like, cover up your computers. And then, no, we’re going to—we’re going to be working here. And I’m like, you know how toxic these chemicals—like, I work in spray paint. Like, I have brain damage because of this. Like, I—I have like, memory issues. They’re like, we don’t care, you know, they’re like, young. They’re like, the world—hack the world. Like, all that. They love saying, you know.

So I was there, and they would be like, let’s fing blast Daft Punk. Like, I—I don’t—this is a world—I’m not—you know, I like going into different worlds. And they’re like, we’re going to blast Daft Punk. Because I guess it’s like something with the repetitiveness and the coding, and we’re going to do these hackathons where we just fing hack into shit and fing—it was punk rock. It was like, a very nerdy punk rock, but they’re like, we don’t give a f. Like—and I like that spirit.

But they were such nerds, and they were so earnest. There was a—you’ve never heard people talk like that, where they’re talking about, like, and we’re going to change the world. And I’m like, I’m into that. Whatever that is.

And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email. I go, I—because I’m not on social media. Like, I never—I’m a Luddite. I don’t—I’m the last to whatever new technology. I’m like, all right. Like, I’ve never touched AI, any of that.

And—and so I was like, you guys are trying to be like, MySpace, but MySpace is—it’s already here, like, for the young people listening. Like, there was no Facebook. There was no Instagram. It was—in MySpace, it was just dominated. And they’re like, yeah, but we’re—we’re f*ing MySpace for Ivy League, you know?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, that’s right. In 2007. That’s right. Because that was a postdoc. In order to get Facebook, you had to have an Ivy League or a Stanford email.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, you’re not the only one, motherf*er. Stolen valor. So I love it. So I forgot what it was. It was like, Choi at Stanford Edu. And—but, like, I remember he gave—

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I still exist.

DAVID CHOE: I don’t know. He’s—

ANDREW HUBERMAN: He.

DAVID CHOE: I remember him giving it to me. Like, it’s something I wanted. I was just painting. He’s like, Dave, you don’t have to go. I’ll get you a Stanford email. And then you could be part of Facebook. I’m like, I don’t want to be—I don’t—I don’t care. I don’t care what you—like, you want to be you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this. Like—and they’re like—he was, like, confused because he’s like, you don’t want the whatever, like, respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford.

I go, no, I hate education. I hate learning. I hate teachers. I hate—like, what the f* are you talking about? And he was like—I go, why don’t you just make it for everybody? And he’s like, oh, like, you know, the thing is, like, it was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out, because it’s just an awesome movie, but it’s just—I was there for all of it and just did not—like, some of the facts are right, but it—it just didn’t go down that way, you know?

The Early Facebook Days

But so—so Mark is like a genius and, and—and Sean, I mean, similar to my mother. It’s like, I think Naomi’s still there. It was like Naomi, Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out. They’re just trying to code, like—and I’m like, listening to all their conversations and I’m like, telling them how nerdy they are. I’m like, bro, make it for everybody. Don’t you know, like—and they’re like—and I would listen in on all their conversations, like, “Ah, so f*ing cool. Dave Choe’s painting our office.”

And I was like, oh, they like me, you know, like, I’m being validated not just by my mother, you know, and so, you know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know. And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand. And it was like a fluke. And that’s another story that I could tell about rejection and all that.

But so I just—I just did some dumb, ignorant math. I was like, well, that painting was this big, and I’m like, 60 grand, you know, and I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone. And then at the time, up until going to jail, like, I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my—like, I was like, I’m—graffiti doesn’t pay the bills. You know, stealing your paint, stealing everything.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Was Facebook office painted with stolen cans?

DAVID CHOE: Probably. Probably. Yes, yes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: My graph friends, graffiti for those. Yeah, they were like world class crooks.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean.

DAVID CHOE: I mean, it’s like, you, like, it doesn’t pay the bills, you know? Yeah. So what had transferred, you know, the nature of addiction is if you don’t get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like, whack a mole. So it whack a mole into my background, which is watching my parents take huge. So I got into gambling.

So I was just like, there was every paycheck, anything. It was always, I got to figure out a way. Because gambling feels like stealing. And it’s, you know. And I sat there, and people were just like, you work at Facebook. Like, that’s, you know, my friends that aren’t in that academia, they’re just like, that’s like the shy MySpace, you know? Like, look at the font. Look at the, you know, all the artsy critic. Like, look at the designs. The fing, you know, what is that the name Facebook? Come on. Like, that’s the most creative, you know?

And I said, I think I’m going to ask them if I could get shares in the company.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You know, did you understand equity in that thing?

The Facebook Gamble

DAVID CHOE: No, I don’t understand anything. And it’s like, I have shares in other companies that are all worthless, right? Like, it was just, it was growing up with my mom, watching her, that if I didn’t have that, like, I just. And I don’t even understand that sh.

I just, I remember being with, having lunch with Zuck’s parents, and, like, you know, he doesn’t. He comes from a nice family, and I think Yahoo or Micro, someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it. He’s like, no, thanks. And he’s still sleeping on the f*ing mattress on the ground, eating Doritos.

And I’m like, like, you know, I’m trying to, like, pay my fing, all my friends back. And I’m like, oh, he don’t give a sh. He doesn’t care about money. Like, he cares about, like, what he cares about. It’s like, such a singular focus. He’s like, I want to fing disrupt the, I want to bring the whole world together. It was, you know, youthful idealism.

And I remember going to work one day, I just loved working there because I don’t get jobs like that where they’re like, paint everything. Like, like, you’re, you’re here, like, doing this, and I’m painting around. Like, I’m painting on everything. And, and the best part is that they didn’t even like what I was painting.

Like, Mark would come, and he’s like, what is that dude? Like, Sean’s like, Dave, you know that other thing you did, I saw at the art show. Can you. And I was like, you didn’t ask for that. You said, f*ing destroy. Like, you said, scare people when they walk. You know, as I recall, there’s like.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Oh, there was like, a big primate, like, monkey with jagged teeth.

Painting the Facebook Offices

DAVID CHOE: And so, yeah, I was, you know, and I was gassing myself out, you know, like, I’m like doing all that sh without a mask on. It’s all going right into my brain. I’m like, whoever knows whatever spray toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain? And there’s no fresh air coming in.

And I remember Sean Parker, just bronze, just bronze skin, like $200 haircut, custom suit. And I go, who are you, man? And he was doing what my mom was doing. He was just f*ing doing push ups. And like. And I was like this skinny little nerd, like, just. He was like, handsome.

And I go, oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit. She used to. And he’s like, oh, we’re, we’re going to get, we’re going to raise some money. Like he was. And I go, holy, this guy’s so sick. You know, and he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into, like, serious fundraising.

And that’s when I met the PayPal guy and Peter Thiel. And like, just, I was like, this guy’s, you know, like, people give all the credit to Mark, but I’m like, Sean, the guy was. He was an artist in, you know, and also, like out of control, which, like, that attracted each other. And then he was there when they got, when he got fired and all that stuff.

But I remember, like, the impact that had on me. Like, just wow. Like, you heard, you’ve heard the fake it till you make it, right? It’s like, I know I’m not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so, but Sean Parker, like, other people think so. And I’m, but I’m like, but that’s whatever, they’re just kissing my a or whatever.

The Transformation Switch

And then there can be a switch. And I think it’s like, sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough. Like, I just can’t take it anymore. It’s like, well, I can’t live like this anymore. I feel like I’m trapped. I feel like. And so then it’s like, oh, you can’t travel. You need money for that. Well, I’m going to hitchhike. Then I’m going to hop on a freight train.

I saw the entire world with nothing, no money. Like, well, must be nice to be rich. I go, I’m rich now. I’ve had nothing my whole life and I just had to f*ing fight for it. And, like, would I recommend it? Like, a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail. But also, jail didn’t hurt me. I lived and I spent some time there. I got to learn who I am.

And, and so it’s just to piece out the skills you learn for what’s creativity, what’s business, what, what aided me and helped me at this time in my life, that which no longer aids me now and how to like. Because the other thing I learned from my mom is just, just adapt. Oh, our business just burned down in the LA riots. And instead of like sitting there is like, okay, now we’re doing this. Now we’re doing this. Now we’re doing this.

Stan Lee’s Lesson

And I’m like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school. I was 18, 1994. And it was at this weird comic book, like a high end comic book store called Comics Top Hits. I’m not a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember beg the guy for a job. I’m like, please, please. And he’s like, all right, find the customer. Because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways.

And I remember one day Stan Lee showed up and I’m like, f* Stan Lee. Like, my hero, you know, and he, and he sat there and people were bringing him Darkwing Duck, Batman, Archie, like, all the things he didn’t work on. Hey, Marvel fans. And he just signed everything.

And I’m like, I was like the guy managing the line that day, and I’m looking at his hair plugs and I go, you fing f. Like, you didn’t fing invent Batman. You’re, you know. And at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and we’re packing up, I’m like, Stan, dude, you didn’t invent Batman. Why the f you signed that guy’s book?

And he’s like, “Did you see their faces? Did you see, like, they were so happy. Like, why would I, why would I get in the way of their happiness?” And I’m like, holy sh, dude. Like, yeah, don’t correct people.

And I thought about that, like, everywhere I go in the world and there’s like Ching Chong China, this. I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere going ching chong. And our translator was a French Vietnamese guy, and he was like, Dave’s Korean, I’m Vietnam. It’s like, you’re just. They don’t give a sh, dude. They don’t give a f*.

Shapeshifting and Belonging

And I remember just the things I’m talking about is like watching Sean Parker shapeshift. Watching my mom, shapeshift. Watching. Act as if you belong. Act as if you have a seat at the table. F*ing. It’s like, I know that’s part of being artists is being like shy, nerdy, self conscious. It’s like, just pretend like you’re the best artist in the world.

Like, you just show up and you’re like, put like, this is the journey from their head to heart.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You’re.

The Power of Emotion Over Logic

DAVID CHOE: This is a… I like when you talk because you use make sense. But there’s that. And that’s why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest f*ing idiots I’ve met. Because they try to apply logic to everything. And you’re applying logic to spiritual problems. You’re applying logic to emotional problems. And it’s like, how’s that working out for you? It’s not. It’s not.

You’re never going to out-think a feeling. You’re never going to outsmart a feeling. Like, you’re like, “Wait, these people are… Act like, who would do that? Why would you do that?” I’m like, because it’s not logical. It’s an emotional thing. It’s a mentally ill… whatever it is. It’s not logic-based. It’s emotion-based. It’s mentally ill-based. It’s spiritual-based. Like, you can’t f* with people’s religion or what they have faith in or all this stuff.

So I’m watching… I remember going, Stefan correcting the black kids that he’s Vietnamese is making them feel stupid, and they’re getting angrier. The kids that think I’m Bruce Lee and I just confirmed that I’m Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It’s like, people are dumb out there. That’s fine. I don’t care. I’m dumb, I’m stupid. It’s like when someone corrects me or it makes me feel shame and dumber. But then if no one corrects me, it’s like, then it’s my own shit to figure that out or not, right?

Adapting to Change

So watching these people, like, very successful people in my life, my mom, she’s like, unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, “Okay, I guess we’re doing this now.” Like, she doesn’t hang on. She’s like, “Hang on tightly. Let go lightly,” right? So it’s like, okay, we were real estate people. Now we’re doing Herbalife. Oh, that happened. Mark Hughes died. Okay? Now we’re doing this. Like, she just goes, like, that, like… adapts to any situation.

And like, right now, I get a call a week from all artists, creative types that there… It’s our… You know, and we don’t have to have AI talk. I don’t… I would rather not have an AI talk. But it’s Armageddon, right? Everyone’s like, “I spent my life doing sound engineering, and now it’s gone.” Just like the guy who would do the hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job’s gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone, and now photographer… Like, it’s just… it’s gone.

Like, you could sit there and start complaining, or you could just keep adapting. And so I think true creativity, you can’t contain. If you’re open and you’re ready to get naked and you’re ready to… you know, people like, “Oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist?” Absolutely. But you’ve already suffered enough. It’s already done.

Like, whatever happened to you in your childhood, that’s enough fuel for the rest of… You don’t have to continually… But I see myself and others at times. Like, I… Hopefully I’m better now, but I see people continually putting themselves in a situation to, like, suffer more and more and more.

Childhood Trauma as Fuel

And I just remember the shame of my… like, it’s just these things. They’re decades ago, but they’re still… Like, my dad just, like, throwing me across. Like, “We left another country so you could be a criminal event.” Like, just… He was like, “I’ll just kill us all now.” We were in the car, leaving the police station. He’s like, “I’m going to crash the car.”

And I was like… I was in the back, like, kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like, feeling mixed emotions, going from, like, victim to sorry to, like, “Well, f* you then.” And, you know, everything in between, and then just going, “I accept now.” Oops, I accept. Sorry. Am I close enough to the microphone?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You’re good.

DAVID CHOE: Am I close to the microphone? Just going, I… I’m going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me. I’m the greatest artist on the planet. I was in my 20s. I was like, “F* it.” Like, going into galleries, looking at comic books.

The Jay-Z and Linkin Park Album Cover Story

And can I tell you one quick “f* you, Sean Parker” story? So at the time I was doing Facebook, like, things were happening. Like, I had a Vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash. I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do an erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And I had just gotten a job to do Jay-Z Linkin Park’s mashup album cover.

And it’s like, I needed the money and I need… And it was just like, things… I was like, it’s starting to happen. Like, things are, you know, and this is while I was doing the Facebook thing, so they hadn’t blown up yet, you know, and they gave me the job. And I’m like, the biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together. And they want me, little old me, to do the… I felt so… I mean, they fing butchered the art. I gave him the art and they just made it look shitty. They put a shitty font on it. They put a… Like, they did fake graffiti spreads. Like, “What the f did you…” Whatever. Anyways, that’s a whole other thing.

But I, you know, I’m like, “Cool, like, what’s that going to pay?” Like, you know, like… And they’re like, “Two grand.” I’m like, “Wait, you know, it’s like, this one day I’m going to make it and my name is going to be in lights.” And I knew other artists. So, like, Mirror did the Limp Bizkit cover, Shepard Fairey did… So I knew them well enough where I was like, “Hey, guys, am I getting f*ed right now or…” And they’re like, “No, that’s typical.”

I go, “That’s what they pay artists for?” I mean, because back in the day when I was doing art, paintings, whatever, galleries or illustrations, that was the range, $200 to like $2,000 at the most if you’re doing like a cover or something. But I’m like, an album cover for… And they’re like, “No, that’s what they pay.” And I was like, “Damn, dude. I thought this was… This is big time, you know.”

Fighting for Fair Payment

And so I negotiated for that at the same time I’m working at Facebook and I drew this crazy cover. And they’re like, “Yeah, that’s for the rights for the album cover, right?” So then, I don’t know, the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere. They use it on billboards, my friends reading comic books, and it’s like, “Oh, they did a full-page ad.”

And I go like, for illustration, that’s a separate fee, right? It’s like, here’s the rights to use on the album cover. Here’s for advertising, right? And so I’m talking to… I don’t know anything, right? I’m a f*ing horrible street artist. Oh, I call myself a street artist. Delete that from the microphone. Sorry.

So I’m… you know, and you could, like, bleep the names or whatever, because I clearly remember. So I call Warner Brothers, and I go, “Hey, can I talk to whoever’s in legal or whatever?” And I go, “Yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful, and they said there’s a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, you know, bus bench usage, magazine editorial, you know.” You know, magazines used to be big, you know, Tower Records, Virgin Records.

And I remember the arrogance on this guy Chip. He was like, their head legal. He doesn’t work there anymore. And he’s like… And I remember the way he talked to me. Felt like my child, like, just made me feel… He’s like, “You’re some shitty graffiti… Like, who the f* are you? You know, like, why am I wasting my time talking to you?”

And I go, “Well…” And he started, like, just hitting me with legalese. And I go, “Hey, I’m raising my hand right now. You can’t say I’m raising my hand saying, I don’t understand what you’re saying. Can you please talk to me and, like, can you dumb… dumb down. Like, you’re trying… You’re, like, trying to beat me up with words right now. I’m just saying, you know, it should be an additional $10,000, $15,000 for what you guys did. I’ll be happy with another five. Or, you know, just like, trying to talk.”

And he’s like, “I don’t know who the f you think you are.” And it was, like, very condescending. And I remember the arrogance of… I was like, “I could be recording this call or,” you know, but he was just… And I was like, “For a guy named Chip, that’s such a weird…” You know, “You could come at us with lawyers, you could,” like, “and you may be even right. But guess what? You’re fing with Warner. Like, you’ll never win. Like, you will never get another dime out of us.”

I was like, “Holy f, that… What a fing…” And like, I said, like, if you’re going to be like, people like, “Oh, I love painting,” then just paint. Like, “Oh, I want to be like, you know, fing hard it is to make money as a creator.” It’s like, you got a f… You got to get a thick skin, and you better be ready to, like…

I had to threaten Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me. I was like, “You asked me for these drawings. I did them. I delivered them on time, and you’re giving me the ‘checks in the mail.'” And I called, like, Wieden and Kennedy, you know, whatever, Oregon. And I was like, “I live in LA. It’s going to take me this many hours to drive. And I’m going to… I don’t know which car is yours. I’m going to blow up every car.” Check was in the mail the next day.

I’m like, “Why did I have to do that? Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the…” But most artists go… And then they just get fed over, right? So that’s part of being an artist is getting fed over, not getting paid what you deserve, blah, blah, blah.

Sean Parker’s Revenge

So I’m like, obviously sensitive and painting, like, in a bad mood. And Sean’s like, “What, dude? What’s up, Dave? Why are you…” And I told him what I just told you, and he’s like, “You know, Facebook has, like, big money behind it now. It’s growing.” He’s like, “Oh, we got a multimillion-dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow. And the meeting.”

And I was like… He goes, “Check this out.” So he has the meeting with Warner Brothers, and they’re like, full… Like, you know, everyone’s at the long table, and they’re like, “Oh, we want to advertise with Facebook. And this is the new… This is the new world.” And they’re like, “Okay, cool.” And it’s like, you know, it’s like millions of dollars or whatever. Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

And he’s like, “Yeah, but that guy Chip fed with my friend Dave Choe, so we’re not doing shit with you guys.” And he just… And I was like, “This guy’s my dog forever.” Like, like, “What? How?” Like, like, just does not know… fs given, right? I was like… I cried. I gave him a hug. I was like, “Don’t f with me. Don’t f with me.”

Like, it felt so good. It felt so f*ing good. I was like… And then I found out you got fired and all that shit. I was like, “Yes. Sometimes the little guy wins, you know?” Like, it felt so good.

The Power of Shame and Self-Belief

DAVID CHOE: So I got all the typical shame and all that. And to be fair, if you’re my dad and you escape the war and famine to raise your family in America and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to graffiti d*cks on walls, like, you’re going to… you’re not going to… So I give him that, you know.

But I just… I was… I felt I didn’t know where I belonged. You know, I’m like, I couldn’t process. Maybe I have dyslexia. I was in school, and it just… I couldn’t. None of the information. I was like, this is so hard. Like, people… Like, I would try really hard to get a C, right? Where other people were like, “Oh, okay, you know, X.” I was like, “Why is there X in math?” And they were like, “Dave.” And they dumb it down and dumb it down. I’m like, “I’m retarded. I think I need to go to that class.”

Like, I felt… Like, I felt… Because both my brothers have, like, really high IQs. And I’m like, “I’m stupid.” Like, I… You know, so I felt really small in that area, and I made up the story. Like, I suck at sports. I go, so this… This is it. This is all I’ll ever be good at.

So I… And now I’m going to fully buy in to what my mom’s saying. And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, like, I’m like, it’s not a fit. I am good. I… It wasn’t like, I am going to be the best. I think I just adopted, “I am the best artist in the world.”

And to that power of thought, like, I sat down and I’d go to museum. I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this… I just got into the business side of art. The creativity. F*cking loose watercolors, like, tiny, detailed pen draw, like, everything. And I was like… And I was like, overcome. I’m like, “I’m going to be good at all of it.” Oil painting, like, there…

So people go, “What kind of artist?” I mean, I’m an artist. Everything when I talk, when I make music, like, I am going from “I’m a piece of sh*t, I suck,” to like… Like, you know, not healthy, but, you know, like, “I am art God.” You know, like… And so I was, like, in my 20s, just, like, brainwashed, like, waking up.

And then, like, that’s not how I naturally woke up. I woke up, like, “Oh,” you know. And I’d wake up, and I’d have to put that on, like, “You’re the greatest.” You know, like, hypnotizing myself. “You’re the best. You’re the f*cking best. You’re… You’re the greatest.”

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Were you doing any, like, reading books? Because at the time, when you and I are basically the same age.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Back then wasn’t a lot about, like, neuroscience and this and that and, like, actualization. It was all kind of, you know, hidden away. But there was this… There were… You know, there was, like, the Tony Robbins type stuff, and there was that. There was this idea and infomercials and stuff like that. You could program your mind. Sounds like you just basically took all that on without any of that.

The Hustle: Making It as an Artist

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, I didn’t read any of that stuff. I stole lots of books, and I would read a lot of pornography. I guess this kind of can… I could fit my Pee Wee Herman story. If we’re talking about publishing, it’s hard to talk about this because kids ask me all the time, like, “How’d you make it in art?” And, like, nothing I did applies to today. You know, it’s like, I went to Kinko’s.

I would have to spend my money or figure out how to do that copy thing, that trick to make more copy. Because color copies are 99 cents. It’s like, who has… So I’d have to pick which one of my paintings were the best. Make these, like, mini color copy packets. So that’s $10. And then I would go to the newsstand and write the address. Like Rolling Stone, like all the magazines that had prestige and, like, C.F. Payne, Kent Williams, Barron Storey. Like, all these amazing illustrators that would work for Time magazine, Rolling Stone, Playboy, like, they would all use.

So I would open the front page where it had the heading of Art Direct, and I would write, write it down. And the newsstand guys, like, I sound like a boomer right now. Like, you know, it’s like, who the f*ck? Like, there’s kids listening right now. That’s magazine. What’s that? You know? But that’s what I had to do.

And I would be like, which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just… And then I have to mail it to him, hopefully. Like, they get that letter and not some other department, you know, and then you just… Rejection letter after… You know, like, sorry, sorry, sorry.

And so I’m… I’m… I’m sitting down, and I’m… I’m ingesting all this, and I have the… I have the fire, and I’m, like, sitting down. I go, that… Like, what… Why is that drawing successful? Why do you know? And of course, there’s tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world, but I didn’t know that at the time, right? It’s like, “Oh, that guy’s dad owns f*cking water.” Like, that guy… You know?

So I would just sit there, and I would be like, “That guy drew this much. I’m going to draw 10.” Like, “That guy did this, and I’m going to draw,” you know. And I… And I just… Some of my paintings. All my paintings back then had, like, at least seven layers, if not more. Just layering and layering and dancing.

It… It was me. It’s like a musician that’s like, “I have to…” Like… I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and Flea doing “Give It Away Now,” and he was just like, you know what he can do? But he was like, “Just do… Like, just play less.” And back then, it wasn’t. It was like, “I need to show everyone what I’m capable of,” which is, “I can draw better than you. I can paint. I have to show you that.”

Now I don’t care. But back then, it was… And it isn’t that art is a… It’s not who can put the most lines down or, you know, and so I’m… I’m… I’m trying to… I’m trying to, like… And it was just… Everyone has their own path.

The Marvel Comics Incident

But I remember year 2000, I’m doing graffiti. I’m getting some gigs to do murals. You know, it’s just slowly starting. And someone contacted me at Marvel Comics, and I was like, “Man, I didn’t even try.” And like, “This is… This is it. This is my dream.” And then “We want you to draw the X-Men. But like, a cool, cool X-Men.” I’m like, “I didn’t even have to go to portfolio day. I didn’t have to,” you know.

And I go, “Oh, I knew if I just kept putting my sh*t out there,” you know. But I’m, you know, I’m what, 23 at the time, you know. And I start drawing it. And I guess they fired me or they didn’t fire me. They just decided to use a different artist. But they never told me. So I’m still drawing it.

And I’m, you know, I’m a passive aggressive, angry kid already. And I didn’t email. Some people had emails, but a lot… Like, a lot of artists hadn’t. This is the beginning of the Internet. Like, people weren’t using it the way they do now.

And I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like, “Hey, Dave, you got fired off the X-Men book.” And I go, “How did you know?” And they go, “You don’t use the Internet.” I go, “What is that?” And they showed us. And I felt shame again. I was like, “Oh, my God.” Like, I was so excited to, like, there’s little things in my head. Like, “If I do a comic book, that means I made it.”

And I wrote the most scathing homophobic racist… Like, just… I was mad. I thought it was funny. I was 23 at the time, and it was like 10 pages long. But I didn’t know the editor of Marvel. It’s probably not even him. It was just… And I didn’t know how to get it to him. So I just went to Marvel’s website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel, like, copy paste.

And the next day was my first experience in the year, you know, Y2K, 1999, 2000 of going viral. They’re like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to, in comics was like, “We don’t know who the f*ck this kid is, but he just committed career suicide.” And then, once again, shame.

Chasing Shame

And so, like, if I go back to all my shame stories, I go, “What’s… What’s the through line?” And we should have made the secret word shame. But, oh, I’m a shame chaser. Like, I get high off shame. Like, “What’s my drug?” Oh, workaholism. It’s like my… My drug that I’ve chased my whole life is shame and anger. Like a f*cking powerful drug, you know?

And so I couldn’t believe it. I was like, “I’m never going to get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine.” And I have. And I have at this point. And I went through the back door, which I always do. It’s true. True vandal.

But I just remember going, “Holy… this is the worst day of my life.” Like, people that I look up to, they’re like… There was like, a whole thing of like, “I don’t know who this Dave Choe, I’ve never heard of him, but he’s a horrible human being. Listen,” you know? And I was like, “But there was context. Like, you should have heard how I heard it in my head.” Like, I was… You know, and they’re like, “Oh, it looks different.” And I was like, “Holy…”

And that was my first experience of, like… Of just feeling, like, me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me. Like… Like, if it’s… But not knowing it. I’m just like, “Oh, I don’t know what the f*ck I’m doing.” And like, some ignorance, some playing dumb, some, like, repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing. And… And… And so I had a friend in comics at the time, because I was just like, “I don’t…” I was just making art.

I was going out doing graffiti every f*cking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in my head and just tagging up everything. Like the… The kind of graffiti you’re not supposed to do. People’s cars, houses. Like, I wanted someone to kill me. Like, I didn’t care. Like, I wanted someone to be like, “Dude, I worked hard for that car, and you just ruined it.”

And in my head I’m like, “But I’m a famous artist,” which I wasn’t. I’m 23. And they’re like, “I just made your car more valuable.” That’s how I’m thinking. But I was out of my mind.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a question about the shame?

DAVID CHOE: Absolutely.

The Addiction to Losing

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I have a friend. He’s a addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy. He’s been on this podcast. His name is Ryan Sauave. He has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing. We haven’t talked a lot about addiction yet today, but you said you got addicted to the shame.

And do you think… I mean, who knows here I’m using my intellectual brain, but do you think that these oscillations of like, your, your mindset, like, “I’m a great artist, I’m the greatest artist,” sets it up so the shame is that much deeper, like, it’s like loading a spring?

Because he told me once, Ryan once told me he’s worked with addict, heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything. And he just said, you know, he goes, “Gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all.”

And he said, “But there’s something really interesting that happens to gambling addicts.” He goes, “Eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing.”

The Neurobiology of Shame and Addiction

DAVID CHOE: Happens really quick. So I have my own feelings about this subject. I’m a severe gambling addict. Like, I told you, I’m going to time jump. So I’m at the, you know, I’m at that point, but I’ll jump to the current, which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about. But, you know, I’m here, so I’ll just go there.

Shame is so powerful because at this point, I’ve been to all the 12-step meetings. I’ve been to Debtors Anonymous, business owners, Dentist Debtors Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, workaholics, you know, Sex and Love Addicts, Sex Addicts, Gambling. Like every single one. And so what’s the through line? Every single addiction is gambling addiction.

If you drink and drive, you’re gambling your life could be over. And you’re, you know, if you overeat and you’re diabetic, it’s just every fing addiction is so. It’s addiction is one of those things you can’t apply logic to. And your scientist friend nailed it. It’s as I explore my feelings, you know, because the people. “What are you running from, Dave?” It’s like, I’m fing running from myself, dude. I don’t want to look in the mirror. I don’t want to see myself. I hate myself. So I’m just running.

So as long as I’m like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just hopping on a train, like literal running, like literally running to make sure I’m never sit still for one second, like, “What are you doing, Dave?” I’m playing drums in a band. I’m f*ing, you know, at a casino. I’m traveling, doing the news. I’m painting at this. Like, I can’t sit still because that means I have to sit with myself. And I can’t do that. I can’t do that. I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t do that. I can now.

The High of Winning and Losing

So you know what feels good? Winning a lot of money, not working for it, and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you literally making enough money off baccarat or blackjack. What people don’t make in a lifetime, that’s an insane feeling.

How many shits do you think I took today before I came here, Rob? How many? Two. Two. One big one and one little one. Like, scientists don’t know what causes IBS. I do. It’s stress. When I was gambling, whenever, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least. Just like, okay, like, just like.

And you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and, like, nothing. Nothing. Like, I was, you know, disassociated, dead inside. Whatever you want to say. I didn’t feel anymore, right? Like, the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I’d already been beaten the shit out of. I’ve already been molested before. I already, whatever you could do to me, you’ve already done to me, and I’m still here.

What can you do to me that I, like, I’m my worst enemy. Like, I beat myself up right when the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when, like, I take one shit a day now, when this f*ing asshole asked me to do the podcast, I start stressing. I’ve taken, what was that? Like, a few weeks ago? It’s, oh, shit, dude. I just took three. Shit. It started again.

Because I don’t have stress in my life anymore. Or, like, I have whatever normal family stress, but I don’t have, “Oh, you’re going to say something on some guy’s show, and then your life’s going to be ruined again,” you know? Like, that’s, I’ve done that so many times. It’s like, so I’m like, f*, I just woke up. I just already took a shit. Why do I take another one? I was like, oh, the IBS is coming back. Because there’s a part of me that’s like, I hope I say something horrible today, because then I could feel that again.

Understanding Addiction Beyond Logic

And so what? People, when they’re listening to this, and I don’t know if I’m making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself, and sometimes I don’t. But if you’re an addict, it will make sense to you. If you’re, if, like, everyone listening to this is either an addict or someone in their life is, like, their family member or their friend. But at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone’s an addict, right? You can’t stop. It’s just impossible.

You will never find anything more addictive than a phone, right? So in the time that, like, I haven’t been in an actual casino in 10 years, I’ve banned from all these casinos, the whole world became a casino. You can’t go anywhere without gambling. F*ing lottery. You can go on your phone. You could bet on, you know, anything, right?

So at first, in every addiction, you want to win. Oh, f* that. You know, I can relate to drugs and alcohol, even though I don’t do that. But, like, that must feel good to, like, get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party or so eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life. And then, okay, that’s good. Your body feels good. Why do you need to eat until you’re puking and you become, like, binging and purging? Like, what?

Because what you don’t understand because you’re applying logic to it is, I want to fing hurt. I want the sh, like, winning a million dollars feels fing great. Losing $10 million feels even better. Well, that doesn’t make any sense. Like, getting married feels awesome. I mean, I’m just making shit up. But, like, put, put, like, greatest day of my life, right? Like, greatest day of my life.

And I could get dark. I’ll try not to use dark examples. But when, when something awesome, marriage, having a child, winning a lot of money, doing drugs, and having one of the best days of your life. Like, just when it’s on the good side, it feels, that’s why you do it. Heroin f*ing feels good. I’ve never done it, but the description of it is, like, that sounds awesome. Why would you not do it again?

But then when you’re fing scratching your skin and sucking dick for fing crack, like, that’s another high where you’re at the bottom, and that’s a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was. And so I don’t f*ing know. Andrew, besides his online persona, right? Like, we’re, this is our first time meeting in person. It’s like, I, this is not me being a know-it-all.

Like, humans are not that difficult to understand. We’re very simple. Like, I called him immature a little bit before. Not to be insulting. It’s just, like, part of me is like, this is me being a hater. Like, I love everybody, but I’m just like, what fing adult gets tattoos? Like, what kind of fing adult get, and I know you got fing tattoos. I’m like, who fing just like, throws their shit away to become a skater? And then like, are you okay with me asking you question? Like, were you sexually abused? Were you?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No. No, I was. I mean, I knew I had friends that were. I lucked out. I had one guy come at me that, I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto. Maybe you saw Palo Alto Toy and Sport. It was, like, down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there did that. I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on him. I made him apologize to me in front of everybody.

And my biggest fear at that point was my mom. Even though we had our attentions. My mom’s from New Jersey.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: She’s old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: That she would actually kill him.

DAVID CHOE: Oh.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Like, actually kill him. Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: She like that maternal aggression, that protectiveness.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: She would have killed him. So I remember being, like, not worried about me. Worried that she was going to kill him, you know, and then. But no, I lucked out there.

Trauma, Brilliance, and Shame-Chasing

DAVID CHOE: I perceive you as a brilliant man. And this is, this is me gathering data and facts in my life. Not, I don’t know what the, but, you know, very smart. I know geniuses, you know, geniuses. The smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, the more on the spectrum they are, the greater the trauma they experience.

Because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it, or you learn that as mental jiu-jitsu to, like, these people I know in my life that are just brilliant, like, they’re just, they can comprehend things that most people can. They could create. Their childhood was so unsafe. Abandonment, you know, and usually, that’s why I asked you about, it’s usually sexual trauma, because that carries the most shame that they’re like, “Oh, small. I can defend myself.”

That unless I become like, like a jiu-jitsu master or fighter, how can I protect myself? And it’s with this. So then something gets unlocked here, and they become the smartest person in the room, and they can just destroy you verbally. They can destroy you in a courtroom. They can just, they can just.

And, and, and so, yeah, to answer that, you become a shame chaser. You get high off shame. And it’s like, that’s even shameful to admit out loud. And so, like, I could sit here and, like, if I’m being present with current, with up to date, like, I have a great life. Like, I’m telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past.

And I have, you know, I tell on myself all the time when old patterns come up. I, you know, I have a therapist. I got a men’s group. I got friends who love me. I raise my hand, go, “I need help.” Which I never did before. I grew up with, “Shut the f* up and figure it out.” That’s my whole, my whole childhood was a question mark.

Where are we going? What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment. It’s just like, and so I just, everything. And that’s probably why I’m really curious and ask a lot of questions because I didn’t know what was happening. And my parents were just, like, working all the time. They’re like, “I don’t know, stay at this house or this.” And I was like, “Who are these people? Like, what’s happening? What’s, why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th,” you know, like, “Why am I getting on a plane?”

It was just like, “Just shut up. Just, just go along to get along.” And so part of, part of my story is if I’m a nice boy, if I’m a nice Asian boy, and I do, then, then the world shits on me. Then everything horrible the second I fing speak up, scream, “Get the f off.” Like, just do graffiti. Break the law. Then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover. Then I get Sean Parker.

It’s like, and, you know, I talked to all the Jackass guys about this. It’s like, you’re rewarded for bad behavior. You get to be the president. You get to, you know, like, the moral. And it’s so, in one way, okay, that’s for career, right? But, like, what about it just runs hell on your personal life and that’s why when I, when I’m in my addiction and I’m chasing shame, I drag everyone who loves me down with them.

So I go, “I need to.” And I don’t need my wife or anyone to be my mom. Like, I’m like, I’ll, I’ll handle it. That’s how I grow myself up. And it doesn’t need to be like, like I said, brilliance is found in Milpitas and Palo Alto and Gilroy. Brilliance is found in the mundane sitting in the waiting room. Brilliance is found in these, like, quiet moments.

And so it’s like, I don’t need to go to rehab and have, like, this f*ing movie role, kind of. It’s just like, it’s a phone call. It’s like, “Let me do this.” And so the feelings, the chemistry that, it’s like when, when you lose all the money you’ve ever made in your life in a coin flip. And you’re just sitting there like, “No worries.” Hopefully I didn’t get any on the microphone.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: What’s that line from that 80s movie? “It’s not a party till something’s broken.” I always like that line because it excuses it immediately. Some breaks, folks, you just say, yeah.

The Path of Workaholism and Hidden Addictions

DAVID CHOE: In this case, it was my soul, you know. So I was very reckless with my heart. I treated myself very poorly. I didn’t care for, I didn’t care what happened to me.

And so as I jumped from addiction to addiction, it’s like, well, which is the one I can hide in plain sight? The one that you’re in right now, workaholism. As long as you work all the time, as long as you’re providing people, like, as long as you’re helping people and being of service, then that’s good, right?

But what is being neglected in that? This. Like, I mean, I don’t tell this to everyone, but, like, someone in your situation that, you know, you have life changes coming up, and I already know your answer, but I would ask, why not take one year off?

Like, why is I. Well, I got my, this, and I was important Stanford guy, and I got. Yeah, but that will, like, like, you only got one life. And, you know, there’s something about it that feels like when I’m in my workaholism, like, that’s the one where I get in this society, a pat on the back. Good. Good job, Dave.

And, you know, the Sean Parker story with the Warner brothers, that was a win. I was like, f* it, you know? But it was, it was so much.

The Pee Wee Herman Story and Chasing Shame

Can I tell my Pee Wee Herman story? There’s some shame in that. I’ll bring it around. I’m, I just don’t, you know, part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience.

Like, I just once I accepted what my mom is saying. True. I am the greatest artist in the world, according to Jane Cho. Now I’m going to start, you know, not at first, but, like, I’ll start to believe that too, because you got to. It’s, it’s so scary doing graffiti, you know, not in a crew, not in a gang, to just go out.

And it’s like, it’s something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one’s going to see it, right? You f* up, whatever. But to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 freeway, like, thousands of people will see it before 8:00 a.m. Like, that sucks. That guy has no can control. That guy’s like, you’re, you’re naked. You’re like, this is what’s inside me.

And I did it 40 feet long, and here it is. And they’re like, it sucks. Shame. I’m chasing shame. Like, it’s like, what would it feel like if everyone’s like, dude, that’s the f*ing masterpiece? Not as cool. Not as cool.

Breaking Into the Art World

So I, I’m just, I’m doing the thing. I’m sending my art out. And La Brea used to have a lot of galleries, and I, and I, and in my head, I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those. I would be like, and I’d go down the street, and I’m like, oh, they show that.

I would keep a record of what kind of art. They show that. I’d skate back to my house and paint, like, that style, but better in my mind, better. And then I make a new portfolio, and I’d go down, like, and they’re like, who the f*? Like, like, it’s like a doubt. Like, you have to be shown first before they’ll even take.

And I go, but, you know, so just anger, more frustration coming out sideways, coming out, doing more graffiti, shoplifting food to, like, you know.

So then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose, where there was an ice cream shop called Double Rainbow. And there’s this wonderful lady named Candace there. And I was saying how I’m talking now first, like, out loud, and my artist right here, and she’s like, let me see.

And I show it to her, and she’s like, this is amazing. I go, I fing know, dude. I’m the best. And she’s like, all right, shut the f out. All right? She’s like, put it up on the wall.

And then my ego goes in a f*ing ice cream shop. And I go, well, I guess no one else is offering. Okay, so it was like, not this. It wasn’t, like, minimalist. It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on. Like, this is singular. Just I’m the best, and I need to show you.

It wasn’t, like, tasteful. Like, here’s one painting and let that breathe. And it was just like, here’s, you know, and people are coming in there buying, like, mint chocolate chip, going, that’s pretty cool. You know?

The Reality of Selling Art

And so every day I would get a call, love your art. Want to buy it? I’m like, f*, yeah. Here we go. Like, $2. I’m like, you know how long I spent on that art? And, you know, and I just was like, 50 bucks. You know, I’m 23. This is, like, early 2000s. I’m like, that’s, that’s less than the art supplies that I stole, to be fair.

But still, I’m like, can you cover the cost of materials? And they’re like, yeah, it’s good, but, you know, can you just, like, haggling, like, five, ten? I’m like, that’s what a f*ing print or sticker costs. Like, this is our original painting, you know?

And I remember I got a call one day, and it’s this, these, these things that I keep. The stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know? And the guy’s like, I’ll trade you a car for, like, that giant painting, the one that I spent months on.

And of course, it’s like, 1972 Plymouth Fury, no brakes, like, cracked, when, you know, just the complete fing beater, like, piece of s. But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing is like, I traded my art for a car for an, you know. Oh, yeah, you don’t need to know the details of the car, you know.

And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for, like, $200, $300, you know. He’s like, just get this s* off my lawn. You know?

And I remember this is how I drove it. I would drive it, and there was no brake, so I had to. There was, like, fuel, and I had to pump it like, a block before or, and then I would always hit the car, like, ding. Like, that’s what and the guy would say, what the f*? And I’d be like, sorry.

And I had no money to fix it. But I was just, in my head, I, I did it. I f*ing, I did it. I, you know, like, small victories, little victories.

Rejection and Finding Alternative Markets

And then my friends like, like, like I knew all, like the indie scene, like, make your own f*ing punk rock. Like, and I would just get rejection letter after just, just the continuation of, you’re not enough, your art’s not that good, you suck. Just, maybe they wouldn’t say that, but that’s how I took every, you know, not at this time, not for us. Rejection letter from Playboy, from Rolling Stone.

And, and I just remember one of my friends, he just always had like, nice sketchbooks. And I go, what? Where are you getting that money? Like you do, you’re a full time artist? And he was like a dirty punk rock guy and he’s like, you know, the skin rags pay just as much. It’s like they have none of the prestige.

And like, you know, I went to the Tower Records warehouse once where they distributed a calendar I made. And it’s like, here’s like this whole table is the warehouse. This is like, you know, Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, this and all of this is porn, right?

So, you know, you don’t want to brag about that, but that’s just, they’re like, they pay literally the same amount as Rolling Stone, but it’s not Rolling Stone. So I go, okay, I guess I’m doing that.

So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where, you know, there’s a curtain and I go back and I start, you know, Butthole Fever. Just start writing down the art director’s name.

The Importance of Caring About Your Work

And that was the thing is like, I cared about. I cared so much about. It was important to me. It saved me. Art saved me. So it didn’t matter if I was doing a logo for Nike or Toyota or like, you know, I just was like, this is, you’re still looking at me.

Even though if I’m doing a corporate job, like, I’m, I’m in there and I need you to see me. And I am, even though if I hate the job and you’re not even paying me, I’m still going to do my best no matter what. Like, it’s, I have pride in my work, you know. And I, and I get that from my parents also. And I love that.

I’ll go to restaurants where I don’t even like the food because I know the waiter is like running to bring me water and he cares like anytime. That’s the secret ingredient to anything. Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it’s such a warm feeling, you know?

And I cared. And I still do. I care a lot. Like, I sit here, go, I don’t give a f*. I do. I care. Maybe too much.

Working for Adult Magazines

So I write the number for, you know, I try the legit ones first. Penthouse and Playboy. And they’re like, nope, nope. I’m like, I guess I go to a Hustler and Buttman, and, you know, Asian Fever. And I get a call from Buttman.

You know, they’re like these butthole paintings you did. They’re, they’re just, they’re so good. And I’m like, I worked really hard on it. You know, it’s not like what I want to be doing, but, and they’re like, can you, can you come in?

And it’s just true to their title. That’s all it is. It’s just all anal. There’s no stories about anal. Page after page, and they go, can you do, like, this? But, like, every week, I’m like, what do you need?

They’re like, you know, Superman fing Lois Lane, anal, Spider-Man, f, you know, midgets, like, whatever. Like, just all anal. And I go, I can do that. I would, I would love to do that. And, like, we pay, you know, a couple hundred bucks. I was like, and I took it serious. I wasn’t like a, it was like, this is my, and a lot of actually famous artists would do that, but under fake names.

And they didn’t want to be associated their real art with that. I was like, and, and so I did all this art for Buttman. Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I remember everyone’s name. Art director was Heidi. She was so sweet.

She’s like, it’s just, like, I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, oh, it’s not just my mom. Like, other people like it, you know, but also this massive narcissist. Like, I’m the best. And like, nah, I’m not that good, you know? But, like, it’s like both, you know.

Becoming a Pornographer and Writer

And I don’t know why this always kept happening, but all these places I always worked at, they would always go, you got such funny story. Like, do you got any, you know? And I was like, I think I’d been with one girl. They’re like, you have any, like, butthole stories?

And I had been trained by, you know, black belt in lying. My mom, you know, she’s like, yeah, of course. Like, I don’t even, it was so easy for me. They’re like, oh, because these depictions of anal sex are so, they’re so graphic and fantastic, and every time you come in, you have some weird story, like, do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this?

And I go, oh, yeah. Like, super racist against Asians. I go, oh, yeah. Like, Suzy Suzuki. Like, just making up fake names. They’re like, you know someone named Suzy Suzuki? I go, oh, yeah? Yeah. She goes, you think she would write about her experiences?

And I’m like, how dumb is this lady? Like, I don’t fing know anyone named Sue. Like, what the f? And she goes, it’s 40 bucks a story. And I’m like, cool. Like, they’re paying me $150, $200 for this. I’ll, so I go home, and I would just write the most ridiculous.

I don’t speak English, you know, this is the voice I hear in my head. I come to America, need a job, and just writing, like, every, like, ridiculous male fantasy, like, and then he put in the wrong hole. And pornography. I became a pornographer.

Like, I’m not, it’s not, like, the proudest moment of my life, but I’m like, oh, God. You know, if God’s looking down on me, probably, you know, but once again, shame. I’m cool with it. I, I’ve made, I’ve made myself at home. Like, most people, they changed their name or, but I was like, this is what I do. I’m a f*ing, you know.

So here we go again. My fing poor parents, you know? So I’m living at home, right? So I can’t. Hi. I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti. I didn’t. They see the spray paint. They see the fing paint on all my clothes.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti?

DAVID CHOE: No, I hated it. Okay. I just, it’s, I have so much respect for that. Like, it’s, it’s everything. It’s physicality. Your, you’re climbing. You’re, you’re an injured. It’s like, f*ing Navy SEAL. Like, it’s crazy. Like, you need to do a detail of a nose while you’re balancing on barbed wire. I mean, it’s.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, those kids are crazy.

The Shame of Rejection

DAVID CHOE: It’s insane. I’m like, f*, dude. These people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could have been like Navy Seals, Green Berets, whatever.

So my dad, of course, finds, you know, my… Once again, like… And then I sit here now, as I tell the story, and it’s coming. Why didn’t I hide it better? Oh, like, maybe I wanted to get caught.

You know, my dad f*ing throws. He’s like, “Sex, sex.” You know, just like, once again, it’s like this. Like, think about my dad. It’s like his friends are, like, going… You know, his friends’ kids are, like, getting the highest SAT scores. They’re getting accepted into Stanford, and… And they’re like, “My son has hair covering his eyes.”

You know, I think I was starting to get into, like, shitty 80s. Like Warrant and Winger and Cherry, you know, like, that kind of… Like, I listen to everything and just shame. I, like, literally, like, not feeling, but, like, having another human, your father, tell you, “I’m so embarrassed of my son. I’m so embarrassed.”

Like… Like, anger, tears, like, just breaking. Like, “Why? Why? Why did I come to this country? Why did…” You know? Just like… And I… I, like… I just… It’s ha… Like, now I could feel more when I tell it, but, like, before, I just, like… Like, I just pretended like it was happening to someone else. You know, I just disassociated. I’m like, “Whatever, bro.” Like, but it wasn’t whatever.

It was like, my dad disappointed in me. My mom disappointed in me. And I’m like, “F*, man. It’s not really working out for me.” Like, just rejection after rejection.

The Buttman Magazine Incident

And I just… I remember the shipping. Like, it was in the Larry Flynt building, Wilshire in Los Angeles. And I was like, “F*, I live, like, a… Like, I could skate there.” Like, I’d rather… And I was scared to, like, send…

Oh, so this is what happened. So I got busted. The lady, I don’t know if she was a lesbian or something, she’s like, “I need to meet Suzy Suzuki.” It wasn’t Suzuki. It was a name like that. It was like Trisha Toyota or something.

And I go, “Heidi, are you serious right now? It’s like, like, that’s… I wrote that story. That story’s ridiculous.” Like, in my head, I’m like, “It’s so obvious a guy wrote that,” you know?

And she’s like, “Hey, we might be Buttman magazine, but we print the truth.” And I was like, “What the f you telling me? The Penthouse letters are real?” Like, “Shut the f up.”

And she’s like… She’s like, took all my art, threw it at me. It’s like, “You will never be published in Buttman anymore.” Like, she just, “You’re done here.”

And I was like, “I spent a long time on those paintings.” Like, I… All the folds of the butthole. And, like, I… Like, I really tried hard. Like, you know, it’s like rejection, rejection.

Like, I… I had gotten so used to my parents being disappointed in me. Gallery art, like, it was just… It was, like, cool. I don’t… All right. Didn’t feel… I mean, I’m sure it didn’t feel good, but I had figured out a way to internalize it and just… All right. And then do my mom’s delusional thing. But I’m still the best, even though the world’s telling me, like, “You’re a loser.”

Meeting the Hustler Art Director

And I go, “Okay, who’s the art director at Hustler?” W.T. Nelson. Okay, I’m going to… So I call them, and I go, “Hey, I live… You know, I can skate there. You know, take me, like, an hour to get there. But I have these paintings, and I don’t want to send them in the mail. I never sent paintings in the mail before, and I’d rather save on the shipping.”

And he’s like, “I don’t know you, dude.” And I don’t really… But I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had printed. But, man. And he’s like, “But, all right, I guess you could come.”

And I’m like, “Yes, I’m going to go to the Larry Flynt Building. This is going to be so cool.” You know? And I… And I go there, and he’s just like, “Yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we’ll use those in Asian Fever. We’ll use these in…” You know, like, different… You know, there was… Hustler had, like, twenty different other magazines.

And he’s like, “Yeah, like, that story is awesome. We’ll print that story.” And I was like, “Okay, cool.” So I’m like, “Am I… Am I a writer?” You know, part of me was like, “I’m a writer. I’m a published writer.”

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Technically, you’re a professional writer at this point.

DAVID CHOE: And at the time, I was also writing for Vice. I was writing for Giant Robot. Also not getting paid. Like, this was the first time I got paid, so it felt like, “Oh…”

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But Buttman pay you?

DAVID CHOE: No, they didn’t, because they… We had that fight, and they never sent the…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You know, apparently they, quote, “only print the truth.”

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: They also don’t pay their bills. So… Yeah, the truth only goes so far for them.

The Delusion of Success

DAVID CHOE: So I… It was me. It was like, I can see a lot of my mom in that now, of how the reality is, I’m not successful. I’m a pornographer. But in my head, I’m like, “I’m published. I’m a real artist.” Like, and “I’m a writer. I’m a scholar,” you know? Like, I…

And then he… I remember W.T. Nelson paid me, and then it wasn’t that much money, and, like… And now it’s just, like, that awkward… Like, “Yeah, we usually don’t have the artists come to the…” It’s all, like, through mail and… “I don’t know. You… You want some porn?”

ANDREW HUBERMAN: This was before Facebook.

DAVID CHOE: Yes. Yes. Okay.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Because the reason I ask is… And I don’t want to take you off track, because I was wondering when Facebook eventually paid out. When the equity popped, basically.

DAVID CHOE: I’ll get to all of it, and I’m going to time jump. But, like, it’s just…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, sure.

DAVID CHOE: I want to stay in… I want to stay in the feeling.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Please.

Sitting in the Shame

DAVID CHOE: I’m trying to… Because these are all stories I’ve told before, but, like, I’ve never told them from, like, an emotional perspective. It’s always just been, like, almost bragging again. I go, like, I’m trying to, for the first time, like, sit… Sit in it.

And… Because I want to focus a little bit on the shame part, you know, and… And part of, you know, part of being an artist is just constant rejection. It’s like asking a girl out, like, over and over again. It’s like, “You’re fat, you’re ugly. No, thanks. You’re not…” You know, it’s like…

And for art, it’s… Art is different, you know, like, what you think is cool, I might think it’s cheesy. And it’s like, now I can see that. But before, I was like, “You’re in the presence of greatness, and you’re saying no to me.” Like, I’m like, “Okay, okay, all right. I guess it’s not good,” you know, so it’s what I present and what I feel inside.

The Hustler Years and Hollywood Encounters

I mean, part of it is they just started sending me boxes. And porn was expensive. Now these spoiled kids today, you could see anything, right? It’s just free Internet. But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or a magazine, those things were like $20. It was expensive.

And now I’m getting these care packages from Hustler. Just s that I’m not even into. Like, bodybuilder chicks with… you know, like, just a lot of s. And I’m like, it looked crazy at my apartment. Like, it was just… I’d finally moved out of the house. I was dating this girl, this crazy actress, and I just… it was floor to… like, every room in the house had some kind of… it was like, kind of my identity. They’re like, “Dave the…” you know, and she was starting to get disgusted. She’s like, “Who am I dating?” you know?

DAVID CHOE: And I’ve always, like, at the core of all my addictions is codependence. I don’t know what’s happening. The world is scary. I don’t feel safe. And I need to go along to get along. And I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay and at the cost of me. That’s what I need.

And so, oh, you like that kind of art? Then I’m a chameleon. I’ll switch to that. Oh, you like Fugazi? Okay, I’ll listen to Fugazi, you know, and it’s not black and white. Some of it’s true, and some of it’s like a mask.

And I’m sitting there just really struggling. Like, stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner. Like, I’m not getting paid. Like, there’s no money coming in. It’s like, graffiti doesn’t pay. Like, the pornography… like, getting paid in porn is cool, but it’s not money. You know, they’re like, “Hey, you want…” And I have a sickness. I have a sex addiction. So it’s like, “Hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want $1,000 in porn?” Which is nothing to them. It’s just, you know.

So I’m having a hard time. And I get to my 1972 Plymouth Fury, and every time I get in, I could kill myself or something, you know? And there’s a note on the door, and it says, “Doing a period piece movie in Los Angeles. Your car, 1970. Fits the time. Can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover…” you know, pays something ridiculous, like a thousand bucks a day or something. I’m like, f, like hell. Like, these small victories, you know? Oh, f yeah.

Meeting Johnny Depp on the Set of Blow

I show up the next day, it’s on the street. Everything in the street, they made it look like 1970s. There’s all these other 1972s. And they made it… they put the sirens on the top. They took the license plate off. And the guy that’s dressing my car, one of the union guys, looks in the back and he’s like, “Yo, this guy has so much porn in the back of his car.” And I was like, yes. You know, like… and I go, “What’s this movie?”

And I see Johnny Depp come out of the house, and he’s got blonde hair in a ponytail, and it’s Blow. That movie Blow with Pee Wee Herman, right? But he wasn’t in that scene. And I’m like, holy… I love Johnny Depp. I’m like, “Oh, f*, that’s Johnny Depp.” And this guy’s being really loud. He’s like, “This guy has a lot of porn. Not just like…” And I’m like, “Oh, yeah, I work for Hustler.” “You work for Hustler?”

So I remember just… that was the first time I saw a celebrity on that level in real life. And I’m like, oh, he’s kind of short, but he was signing autographs and talking to everyone. I’m like, this guy looks… he seems very friendly, you know, like, he had that whatever charisma, Riz, the kids say, and star quality.

So then it’s craft service, lunch. You know, I’ve never been on a movie set before, and I’m just like, I’m getting paid to do nothing. And I was like, between all the background guys, I was the man because I had so much porn, you know? So I just had… I grabbed a sampling of it. I had some of the ones that I had drawings in, and I put some, like, my… like, you know, I don’t know. It’s like, maybe Johnny Depp’s going to see my butthole paintings and be like, “Hey, paint me.” You know? Like, I don’t know. That’s my delusion, right?

So I’m like, is he going to eat in his own trailer or is he going to be down with the crew? And he was down with the crew. So it’s like lunch. And it was just a scene with, I think, Ray Liotta and all this. And I’m just sitting there and I’m like, I want Johnny Depp to see… like, I want to… like, I don’t know. And I’m like, who the f*? I’m like, 23. I do graffiti. Like, I got a car that doesn’t work, you know. It’s like… but I was like, ah, it’s going to happen.

So he’s sitting down with the crew. He’s telling stories. And I didn’t have to do it. Another guy was like, “Hey, Johnny, this guy has all this porn in his car.” He’s like, “Oh, really?” I can’t do a Johnny Depp impression. And I go… and I was like, my cue. I was like, “Hey, Johnny. Like, see, this is my art.” And, you know, I had some Buttman in there. I had a Hustler. I grabbed a sampling of my, you know, maybe I had some color copies of my art.

And he flips through it. He’s in his wig, and he’s like… like, “It’s a lot of butts,” you know, like, “It’s pretty singular vision.” I go, “Yeah, I could do other stuff.” And, you know, he just hands it back to me. I’m like, “Oh, f.” And I was like, “Oh, thanks, Johnny.” You know. And I was like, oh, that was cool. And then I’m trying to spin that in my head of, like, immediately goes to, “He fing hates you. Like, what stupid… like, why did… you know? Like, why did you do that?”

The Paul Reubens Encounter

And then, yeah, I don’t know. The movie… like, you know, when they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name. I didn’t know it was going to be Blow. Like, that movie’s awesome. And I feel defeated. And they’re like, “Hey, you know, we were going to pay you for two days, but we finished the scene, so you’re only going to get paid for one day.” And I’m like, I’m going to get as much chicken as possible. So I start getting the Tupperware and, you know, like, I’m going to eat for like a week off this craft service food.

And I’m walking out and I see all the star wagons and I see on a door, “Paul Reubens.” I’m like, here we go. Like, f*ing my childhood. I’m like… and he had gone… caught jerking off in a movie theater or something. I didn’t give it… like, I always… maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame. But when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting or like, all of that always made sense to me. And it endeared me to… it made me… it made them look human.

Like, I was like, that’s weird. My hero, my childhood hero that did Pee Wee’s Big Adventure, Pee Wee’s Playhouse, getting caught jerking off. And why did he do that? Why didn’t he do it at home? Or… but even those things I didn’t understand. I was like, now I’m like, I love that guy. Like, I have nothing but compassion for… like, and that’s like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with, you know, murderers and at-risk youth and… like, I’ll work with anybody because my old self is like, “F this dude. F this person. F* you. You hurt me. Revenge. Revenge.” Very Korean, you know.

And now I go, if… you know, and I work with people in prisons, I go, if you’re willing to be a better version of yourself, I can… I’m not a scientist. I don’t… but I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person or try at least, if you’re willing. Only if you’re willing. If you’re not willing, then I don’t want to waste my time and, you know, great.

So f* it. I’m going to do it. So Johnny don’t want the porn here. I read a little… I don’t remember exactly what I wrote. And I was like, “Biggest fan. Love you.” I think I wrote, like, “I don’t care what they say about you. Like, I still love you and I can draw other stuff, but here’s stuff I’ve done for…” And I left it on his thing, knocked, and I was too embarrassed to… and I ran away.

The Facebook Fortune and Finding Success

And I mean, it just… there was so many moments. I remember, you know, and then so like, it’s gradual, right? Like it’s like, okay, and then this little thing happens and this… but, and you know, it was like, I don’t know, a decade before the Facebook. And also, I don’t pay attention to that stuff. So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he’s like, “Hey, you know, those shares are worth a quarter million now.” Or… but then at the time I was gambling and I was making that much gambling, so I was like, “Ah, whatever, I don’t care.”

He’s like, “Yo, you know, they’re worth a million now.” And I had quietly become a millionaire by the time I was 30 at a huge art show with Steve Lazarides, who’s Banksy’s art guy. And I was like, I hit at the right time, that s, you know, like, “Oh, f you, dad. Look, I fing made…” you know, like the art that he hated me for. I was like, “Look, there it is.” You know, and there was always a lot of anger at that. It’s like, “You fing live in a house that was paid for by spray painted dicks, motherfer. F you.” You know, like, you know, and it’s like, I love my parents. It’s a love-hate relationship. It’s complicated. Or maybe it’s not that complicated.

But it’s like, you know, hearing… I know how proud of… even though it’s not very Asian for parent from another country to say, “I’m proud of you.” Like, he tells, you know, he’s like, we kiss on the lips. He’s like, and he rubs my face like… “I fing love you dude.” He doesn’t cuss, but he’s like, “I love you. I’m proud of you.” And it’s like all that s I just said, it’s like, you know, so I have a lot of compassion for my family.

The Vice Years and Turning Shame Into Work

So I remember… and then things like I started working for Vice. You know, I had this relationship with Gavin McInnes and Shane Smith, and they’re like, “Hey, you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur. You hitchhike…” Like, and this was as print is dying and things are… they were the first early adopters of tech. And, you know, they’re like, “Vice is going to move to online.” I’m like, “Who…” I’m always the guy that’s like, “Who the f*?” You know, it’s like, I’m like Korean Forrest Gump. I’m just in the room with the most important things in life happening. I go, “All right, cool.”

And they’re like, “What can you film for nothing?” you know, because it was like Spike Jonze was there in the beginning. Johnny Knoxville, like, you know, it was like the beginning of that Vice, you know, ended all fed up because of greed and all that s. But I was like, “Every time I hitchhike, something crazy happens.” I’m like, “Okay, cool. Film that.” So then I started filming Thumbs Up. I think the first… what I was saying with time, I think it was 20 years ago, and I do all that s, and then it’s like, all the things like I was saying that I was arrested for, I got shamed for, embarrassed for, now people are giving me money and jobs, and they’re like, “Yeah, all that fed up s*. Can you do it on camera, can you?” You know?

And I was like, “Oh, they like me. My mother was right,” you know?

Meeting Dave Chang and the Pokemon Addiction

And so one day, my friend Dave Chang, who also has severe gambling issues, you know, I didn’t want to meet that guy, because that was like looking in a mirror. He was like, everyone’s like, “He’s you, but of cooking.” And I was like, “I don’t need to meet…” Like, I need to meet with people that lift me out of my s*. Not… that’s why I hate meeting other addicts, because then it’s like, you know, like, you never know how it… like, right now, I’m sitting here telling… if I’m getting… if I’m being… if I started this show, telling you what I least want to share.

It’s like, now I’m addicted to Pokemon, right? Like, you go, “Oh, you haven’t gambled in a casino in 10 years. You haven’t…” You know, and you pat yourself on the back. And then the worst thing happens. My kid gets into Pokemon. I go into a shop. I had no idea that packs cost $20. I open a pack, and the worst possible thing could happen. I get the hit card. It’s like, “You got the Charizard, the $1,000.” And I’m like, “Wait, wait, wait, hold on. Wait. What?”

And I go, “Oh, this is gambling.” And in six months, I’ve gone from, like, maybe I’ll spend 100 bucks, which at the time was like, for f*ing cards. And now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it. And it’s… and now… and I always turn my addictions, which I’m always open about, into my job. But it’s for work. The buttholes. That was for work. You know, everything’s for work. It’s like, “Oh, now I’m drawing on the…” I got one for you. I’ll give it to you later. I drew on Mike Tyson for you because I know you like Mike Tyson.

The Cost of Caretaking

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I should get context. Dave sent me a text yesterday. He said, what’s your favorite Pokemon? And I don’t know because I don’t follow Pokemon. He goes, what’s your favorite athlete? And I said, Mike Tyson.

DAVID CHOE: That’s a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you. So, I mean, you’re welcome.

You know, the addictions, the things they say about addiction is, it’s baffling, cunning, seductive. And so, I’m like, oh, I’m not. The gambling comes up in other ways. You know, it’s like trading cards, you know, like little things. And it’s like, I don’t, I’m not as a middle aged man and I’m shaming myself. It doesn’t feel good to be, you know, like, I’m friends with guys that are like, like Money Mark, who’s in the Beastie Boys, like, he’s 65. And my friend Bill Poon, who I used to do a podcast, he’s 62.

So like I’m a middle aged man hanging out with other middle aged men in the middle of night, talking about Predator Badlands, talking about like childish arrested development type of sh*t. I go, and the thing is, like, I’ve been to countries and cultures where they’re like, even being a Mormon. And like when you turn 18, there is a ritual that happens that says, now you’re a man. And we don’t have that in our culture.

So that’s why you have grown men wearing Pokemon T-shirts and talking about fantasy. It’s all the same, fantasy football. It’s all fantasy. It’s all immature sh*t. And you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards and, and it’s like, okay, if it makes you happy, cool, I guess. But there’s always a part of me that’s like dissatisfied.

Like, I do like my daily affirmations of like, I don’t need to do anything today for Andrew to like me. Like, I’m enough. Like, I just, I have to sit in that. And I’m like, no, I got to. And then I got it from you. You know, it’s like we talked once on the phone before I showed up today, and you’ve sent me a mountain of this yerba mate, this delicious matina. And I’m like, that’s, I f*ing like, this is like crack to me now.

And I’m like, oh, this guy, I don’t know is the sending, hey, can I get some more of that? And I told you I was starting to get sick. And you’re like, oh, I’m going to send you some peptides. And I go, what a sweetie. And cute and like awesome and very handsome. And like, your shirts, the way they fit every time. I’m like, dude, and you got some guns. And like, the clothes look good. I’m jealous of your posture.

And I just go, oh, this guy’s a caretaker. Like, I don’t even f*ing know the guy. And he’s sending me like, I don’t know if peptides a drug, but he’s like, I’ll help you, Dave. I’ll send you these experimental medicines and this. And I go, thank you. But also, you don’t need to do any of that yet. Like, I just wanted to meet you.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And to be clear, I know I don’t have to. It’s in my nature to want to care for people that I feel love towards.

DAVID CHOE: I know, but like, we just met and I’m like, those things take time. And then you’re like, no, I got people to do that or whatever. And I go, the cost, I’ll speak for myself. The cost of that at some point is you, right? When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know, and so, and it feels like against how I was raised, like, oh, f*, this feels selfish for me to, you know, like, I never took of it, you know, at the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band.

The Podcast Years and Shame-Chasing

My podcast was DVD essay, which I did with Asa Akira, porn star and Bobby Lee and Steve Lee. It was becoming like the biggest, you know, there was no one doing podcasts back then. It was Joe, Adam Carolla, trying to remember it wasn’t them. It wasn’t what it is now, you know, and so it was insane, like, because I grew up on Howard Stern and I’m just hearing him fight, like you couldn’t say a certain thing. And then he’d get punished by the FCC.

And then someone was like, hey, Dave, you know what? A podcast sounds weird. What’s a podcast? And they go and talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules, and I was like, as a new canvas as you could. You can say anything. You can f*ing cuss and tell, like, the worst story, like. And I just, I couldn’t believe that it existed. I couldn’t believe.

And so, you know, and I didn’t, like, come in with a mission statement. And I know intention’s huge, and part of it was I was just running and running. But now, in hindsight, I go, what was that? And I was, oh, shame-chasing. I was like, how can I be as, how can I record the downfall of me? Like, how much can I go over the edge? How much can I push up against this boundary and see, because let me see if you care, right?

And first of all, I was like, no one’s listening. Turns out it was a lot of people listening. But I didn’t know that at the. You know, we started. I was like, let’s just, let’s just go. Let’s record our downfall. Let’s record our bottom. Like, as an addict, like, being, being how. Like, I’m chasing shame. Like, I’m like, in a way, it’s like this. Like, someone who’s like a flasher. They’re like, what kind of person gets off on, like, running down the street?

I was like, that’s what I’m doing. I’m trying to, I’m not a mentally well person that I’m dealing with demons inside me that I don’t know how to articulate. So I’m going to workaholism. I’m going. And I’m trying to find myself and find out what I’m trying. Like, I don’t. And it’s just so painful. And I feel misunderstood. And I go, let’s just f*ing say the worst possible things every episode and make fun of it like a joke.

And just, like, I mean, once again, if I look back and I go, what’s the worst things that ever happened to me? Jail. Like, getting canceled multiple times. It’s like, all of it led to the best moments of my life. So I don’t sit here and judge. Oh, this was good. This was bad. Because good moments lead to, it’s just life, right? It’s fluid, and it’s, there’s a spectrum of good and bad.

Howard Stern and Validation

So I remember just, there was so many. I’m, like, doing this podcast, and in my mind, I was like. And, like, having Howard Stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private, dude, you’re out of control, was the greatest compliment. You know, Howard Stern, the despise, you know, the king of all media, telling me. And I asked him on the show if he can adopt me. And I’m like, I’m the prince of all media. I f*ing do comics, and I do fine art. I do graffiti. I can do anything, you know, and to have that validation.

And, you know, we don’t talk regularly, but, you know, I started sending him watercolor stuff, and then he got into water, and he’s f*ing really good. Like, he, like everything. He went into it. And so that was. And then at one point, I was talking to his producers about being on Sirius, like, right after him, and I was like, there’s, like, Jane Cho was right. I am the greatest. Like, I can do anything.

And then, you know, people started listening, and they’re like, these people are saying the worst sh*t ever. And I was like, I know, but I’m just like, don’t they know I’m a comedian? Like, you never told anyone. Like, and that’s not funny, but whatever. I mean, I shouldn’t have said, like, a lot of the things I said, and I never gave. I don’t. Like, as an artist. I don’t, like, explain. Like, here’s my black penis I painted on the wall. Like, I don’t. I paint and I do stuff.

But the mistake that I made was words like, in the spectrum of entertainment and art, everyone watches movies and video. Like, that’s up here. So that has the most eyeballs on it. Then you go all the way down to at the time, podcasts, art gallery. Nobody care. You do whatever you want. No one cares. And so that’s how I was approaching it.

And people go, when you paint the most fing vile, obscene, disgusting sht, it’s still a painting, right? But when you say stuff, people take it literally. Like, you’re coming at a microphone like, it’s a. Oh, sh*t. I scared myself. That was so good. I love that. Oh, my God, that felt good. That was a good scream. That was like your punk rock. Someone sampled that, turned that into a punk rock song.

But I treated it like it was just another. You know, I was. It was Sean Parker. I’m not blaming. It was these people in my life that I witnessed as successful. They didn’t take reality seriously, right? I’m like, I don’t care. I’m going to say I’m going to push it as far as I can because I don’t care, because I don’t respect reality. I’ve never have, like. You f*ing believe it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yes.

DAVID CHOE: Yes, I believe. Look into my eyes. I believe in Santa Claus 100%. There’s no part of me that doubts that that’s who you’re talking to. A mentally ill person working on himself, trying to express himself as, you know, like a perfectly imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe. That’s how I’m trying my best. That’s it. That’s it. You know?

Meeting Anthony Bourdain

So I meet David Chang. I become friends with him. He’s like, let’s go to dinner. I’m going to bring my friend. And his friend happens to be Anthony Bourdain. And immediately, like, I’ve met my brother. Like, I mean, he’s older than me, but it was just, you know, ex heroin addict, got through it through workaholism, and I could see that he was tired, you know, and he had a thing that he kept saying. He’s like, what’s your life? You just watch TV and watch the Simpsons.

And, you know, he had this story like, I have to live an interesting life. And he’s like, oh, I’m doing. You know. So I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic. Like, it wasn’t like, oh, I want to. He was, in a way, grooming either Chang or me or Roy Choi. I don’t know. He liked Asians, but he was grooming us to take over, basically.

And that, that once again, fed my ego of, like, oh, he’s, he can see what my mom. He thinks I’m special. Like, the guy that is the most interesting person on the planet wants me to take over. Like, oh, my God, this is great. You know, so he’s like, my. You know, it’s like you’re doing. You know, his show changes. No Reservations. It kept changing.

And so, you know, every time I ate with him, it was insane. I mean, I don’t know if he had eating disorders or what, but it’s Anthony Bourdain. So you go in a restaurant and they bring out every food, right? Like, everything. And I go. I’m watching him. He takes a sip of water. Thank you. Can you wrap this up? I’m like, you’re not going to eat? You know, because everywhere he went, every chef wanted to. He’s like, Dave, if I ate all this sh*t, like, I’d be like 300 pounds, you know?

So I’m like, can I take it home? He’s like, yeah, you could have it. And then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA to stay at Chateau Marmont, and I’d be like, is your life just eating at restaurants. And he’s like, yeah. I go, hey, from now on, just come to my house. My mom’s like. He’s like, I would f*ing love that. You know, he closed his eyes, like.

So whenever you come to LA, he would go to my mom’s house. My mom would. My mom loved him. Like, Tony and my mom were, she. I don’t know what his relationship with his mom was like, but he loved my mom. And he’d always. He knew culture, so he’d always bring the Asian pears. You know, he knew like, oh, I’m going to a Korean house.

And then after a while, like, when I meet people that I love and I respect, I value the friendship. So I don’t go. And that doesn’t mean I don’t value you. I was like, I would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast. But I was like, f* it. Like, let’s just jump into it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But do it in reverse.

The Bourdain Years and Breaking Point

DAVID CHOE: Yeah, we’ll do it in reverse. And same thing. Like, I never asked to be on a show. I never. But after a while, he just was like, “Dave, I’m doing LA.” And I go, “But haven’t you done LA?” He goes, “Yeah, but this specifically Koreatown.” And I go, “Okay.” I mean, I grew up in Korea. I was born and raised in Koreatown.

But so then his producer, his production company, 0.0, I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I’m everything. I’m the director, I’m the production. It’s just like, Thumbs Up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy, and like, a chase van. That’s it. It’s four people. But, you know, I was like, “Oh, this is like what a real TV show is.” Like, he had guys setting up shots, and it was like, a lot of people. And I go, “Oh, f*, this seems cool. Like, you don’t have to.”

So his producer calls me and goes, “Okay, we’re going to set this show up for like, two months from now. And it’s Koreatown centric.” And I go, “Okay, but do you want to do fake? Like, I’m down. Like, what do you guys need? Like, do you. Like, I know every, all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but I grew.”

Koreans don’t eat Korean food. Like, from my era, we didn’t have any money. So when we go out, we eat at Sizzler, we eat at Denny’s. We don’t eat. We get Korean food at home, you know? Like, so if he’s trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Koreatown, it’s Sizzler. And like, everyone, every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler.

And so she’s like, “So you’re telling me we’re going to bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know, spend all this money to take him to Sizzler?” I go, “Hey, I just told you. Like, I’ll fake it. Like, I’ll, I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like, we could, but I didn’t eat that shit growing up.” He goes, “No. Tony loves authenticity.” I’m like, “We’re going to f*ing Sizzler then.”

The Channing Tatum Connection

So we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse and he’s, I mean, it’s like, I mean, pitfall after pitfall. Like, it’s, I remember at the time, Channing Tatum came to my, like, his agent, this guy, Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum’s agent’s Korean. And he calls me and he goes, “My client, Channing Tatum loves you.”

And like, it’s like after all these things and getting canceled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in, there was always, “You’re not supposed to do that. You’re not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card. You’re not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You’re not supposed to.” There’s rules that you’re not following. And I’m like, it was this my whole life.

So I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that. And he showed up with his agent and he’s like, he had just done, he was a pretty boy. He’s one of the most handsome guys, but he’s so talented. And I’m like, “I don’t f*ing want to meet Channing. I don’t care about Channing Tatum.”

And then he came to the warehouse and he’s like, “Don’t think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing Step Up from the streets guy. Like, I’m about to do GI Joe. But like, I’m like.” And I’d put out zines and like self-published books. And I write the way I talk right now. And he’d read that. And I was like, “Channing Tatum read?” You know? He goes, “You’re a great writer.” And I’m like, “There it is again.” I’m like, “I write porn.” He’s like, “No, no, no. You have a way of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that. Like, whatever.”

I go, “But I’ve never written a script.” He goes, “Whatever you write, I’m going to produce it.” And I go, “Holy shit, dude, this is amazing.”

And then like, I don’t know, I’m time jumping. But at some point, I got a little cocky and he’d put out 21 Jump Street, which Johnny Depp again, you know? And I said, “There’s Ice Cube talking to Korean Jesus during that movie. Do you guys still have that Korean Jesus?” He’s like, “Oh, yeah, we made that for the.” I go, “If you guys want to work with me, I need that Korean Jesus.” So they sent me the Korean Jesus and I put it in my warehouse and I prayed to it every night. I prayed to Korean Jesus.

The DC Comics Opportunity

And what else? I mean, because of all the canceling, it’s like, if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me. So it’s like, once again being rewarded, rewarded for the bad behavior.

So there’s this editor at DC Comics. Oh, cool. I can’t draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman, and he, this guy Axel Alonso, who worked at Vertigo, which was like, the more adult, like, dude, Sandman and stuff like that. He contacts me and he’s like, “I’ve been reading your f*ed up articles in Vice.” He’s like, “You’re a writer.”

That’s the thing that I have the most respect for, is writing. Like, I have a book in me. I’ve never, I haven’t sat down, but it’s like, it’s in here. I’m too scared to get it out. But he’s like, he’s like, “Yeah, your art’s okay.” Okay. And he goes, “I want you to write a book about,” you know, it was like Koreatown Gangsters or, and it was shit that I didn’t know about. I was like, “F* it, I’ll make it up.”

And I was like, “Yeah, I’m going to write it like this.” And he’s like, “No, you’re going to write it and someone else is going to draw it.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” But he was like, and then I started writing it and, and I start writing him emails like, “It’s done.” And, you know, email bounced back. He quit and like, moved to Marvel. And I’m like, “Ah, f*. It was almost about to happen again,” you know?

The Height of Workaholism

And then my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger, and I’m so, I’m in my full workaholism. I’m aware that I’m an addict. I’m like, I’m in my full addiction. I’m gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band Mongchi, doing the news for Vice, doing art shows, like, legally around the world and doing illegal. Like, just. And people are like, “Are you on coke?” I’m like, “I don’t have chemicals. I don’t do. I get high off. Like, I.”

And each thing is like, I have to do the. I, I’m not enough. That’s what I believe about. That’s what I did believe about myself. And still sometimes today is I was everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother, is that you’re not. And that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me. So it was like, “You’re telling me I’m the best, but then you threw me out like trash.”

So a lot of mixed messages and, and the messaging that I heard growing up that I received was, “You’re not enough. You’re, women don’t date Asians. Your art looks like shit. It’s, you’re not following the graffiti rules. Your art’s a little too aggressive to be refined for.” It’s just, everything is just so. Everything had to be. I need to be. It’s not, it’s not like I can kind of be in this field. Like, I have to have the best podcast.

And in my mind, that was Howard Stern. So I was like, however extreme he is, I have to go like, Howard’s the ringleader, but I need to be the guy that’s the, you know. And I don’t care what happens to me, because I’ve had third degree burns all over my foot. Like, my brother’s read my diary. I’ve been stabbed in my. Like, I don’t care what you do to me, because it’ll never be what I can do to myself. I’ve hurt myself.

Controlling the Addiction

So then I’m in Russia or the North Pole, interviewing. It’s my first time doing the serious news. And I remember at the time, Shane and Eddie and everyone at Vice, we sat down, and they’re like, “Dave, your podcast is out of control.” And they all know me. They’re like, “You can’t say those things.” I go, “I can say what the f* I want.” I’m like, “This is Vice, baby.” They’re like, “Dave.”

And it was like, second season of Vice News on HBO. The first season was Dennis Rodman in North Korea getting a lot of attention. We start getting Emmy nominations. And the year that we did it, I won the Emmy for the news. I’m like, you know, my ego’s like, “Oh, the first time doing the news. F*ing nailed it.”

And I’m like, “I’m God, dude. I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on this show. And I could do serious fing delicate watercolors that could be in a museum. And I could do the most craziest, like, you can’t fing put me in a box. And if you try to, I’m like, I am better than you. I’m better than you as a human being. I’m better than you as an art.”

And it was like, my friends just like, because it’s easier when you’re an alcoholic or drug addict. You’re like, “Bro, you’re unhinged, you’re out of control.” But it was just narcissism, hating myself, self-destructive behavior, just. And again, the people would come up to come with me. I’d bring them to because I controlled my addiction.

Like, I would, I knew that I had a problem. And I know the nature of addiction is you can’t stop. So I did something that I’ve never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close friends, being like, “I’m an addict, I cannot be trusted. I’m a liar, I’m a thief. And so when I’m in my gambling state, I don’t hold my money. So as soon as I win the number I told you I’m going to win, I need you to punch me in the face. I need you to drag me away from the table. Because now I’m going to say anything to keep going so I can never touch my own money.”

“If you see me falling in love with a girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face.” And like, I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me. It’s like, like if I was an, if I was an alcoholic, it would be, “I’m at a bar and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom.” And drag me out of the bar.

So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful. Like, I never, because I had someone and I, and they would only get paid if I, they got me to stop, right? But then I pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know.

The Heart Attack and Rock Bottom

So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction. Like, I got every. I don’t sleep. There’s days. And then I had a heart attack when I was 35, an angina attack. I collapsed, I went blind, I collapsed. And of course, like a lot of stories, as soon as I didn’t go to the hospital. As soon as I woke up, I was like, “What the f* was that?” Like, I woke up 30 hours later, another day, and I just went back to gambling.

But it was like, you know, I could go into euphoric recall and just start telling, like. But I don’t want to, like, glam because it’s like I figured out how to, how to be in the world. If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs, then I will be validated and congratulated and held up high in this culture. Even though if I’m dying inside, I need to. I’ve spent so much time in shame. I need to go. I want to see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know?

But then that’s when I got there. I go, “What do you do when you get to the heavy as the crown? It’s lonely at the.” Like, I got to the top and I was like, “Kind of boring. Let’s.” The kid in the village with the match, “Let’s burn it down.” We got here, it’s like. And that was my childhood. Literally. I would spend a lot of time building giant Legos with all the loot. Like, we had like all mismatched Legos that was like, you know, hand-me-downs and I would build a giant starship and my brother coming, “Cool.” We’re just smashing. I was like, “I worked so long on that,” but that was me doing.

My brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career. Let me just do it myself. Let me self-sabotage myself. Self-sabotage. It was like mini suicides, you know? And so it’s all, I’m like, “Here, here I am. It’s all. It’s. I’m finally going to be, you know, validated as a human being,” you know?

The Rejection and Shame Cycle

And then I get, you know, I get advice telling me, “Hey, you get, you can’t do your podcast and the news.” I go, “Then go f yourself.” You know, and then we win the Emmy, but I’m not part of that anymore. And then, and then I can’t keep track because I keep. They’re like, “Did you know this artist got caught on saying,” I go, “It’s on my podcast. It was my podcast. You don’t fing. It’s not like I, I did it on purpose,” you know?

Anyways, it just kept happening. And I, I’m at the sickest I’ve been mentally, and I’m trying to make sense of my situation while the world is, also has its own issues. And I, and I, I just, I, like, I hit my bottom. I just went so off the deep end. And my friends were all like, “You’re going to die. Like, it’s not like a normal OD with drugs. But you, you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight. Like masturbating non-stop to pornography, just like video games.”

Like, I couldn’t stop playing Angry Birds, which like, everything’s like. So I can make a joke out of it. And they’re like, “That’s your safety thing is to like make a joke out of it.”

And so I walk in to, you know, a meeting and Channing Tatum’s dude is like, “Channing ain’t fing working with you.” And it was, it wasn’t him. It was like, “Hey, I’ve spent all.” It was the agency. It was like, “We’ve spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing. He’s not going to be fing seen with a scumbag like you.” I go, “Oh, shit, it’s happening again. Shame.”

The Bourdain Promise

I walk into 0.0, Bourdain’s like, “When I’m done, it’s you. You’re going to. Here’s a book deal with my publishing company. It, your show is going to be on CNN. It’s going to be exactly like mine, but with art. Like, you’re going to travel around the art and it’s like authentic to you because you already do that. I’m just like, holy shit, dude. This is it paid off, all the bad behavior. Like, I met my kindred spirit.”

And, and I knew he wasn’t happy. That’s one of my. I can’t watch. Like, it’s been years since, since all that happened and I still, I can’t. I can’t. Like, I felt, I felt like I met someone who finally understood me.

So I know it wasn

The Loss of Anthony Bourdain

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The people that were close to him, like you and Joe.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So it’s the same response always.

DAVID CHOE: It’s the same response. And I think that’s what makes it so difficult, because you realize that no matter how close you were, no matter how much you thought you knew someone, there are depths that remain hidden. There are struggles that people carry silently.

The Path to Recovery and Self-Discovery

DAVID CHOE: So then I’m lost. I’m getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom. And I get a call from David Arquette, like, the actor. And I love all the Arquettes. But David, this is LA s*, right?

He just reaches out and he’s like, “Hey, I am watching TV right now with my, I think, fiancé at the time, and we just saw your Anthony Bourdain episode.” And he’s like, “That’s the most fing LA s.” He’s like, “I was in a crew called KGB Kids Gone Bad.” And I was like, “No, Korean’s Gone Bad.”

And he goes, “It’s crazy. Like, I mean, I used to do graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB. And I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family.” And he goes, “And I’m turning…” I forgot. He was like, “I’m turning 45 or 50.” I forgot how old he was, but it was like a big one, like 40.

And he’s like, “I’m having it at the Sizzler. Sizzler’s almost out of business. I think there’s like three left in LA.” And he’s like, “And it’s at the Sizzler that I grew up, and I would love for you to be here.”

And all that stuff, all like weird celebrity stuff, always makes me nervous because I’m like, I don’t know if they’re going to be fake. And I’m a sensitive person. Like, if I’m meeting new people and they don’t like me, I’m like, “Oh, I’m a piece of s*.” I’m sensitive. I’m a sensitive artist.

So I go to Sizzler with my friend Critter. I was like, “Hey, can you come with me?” And we get to Sizzler and it’s packed, and there’s the buffet bar with the cheese toast. And he’s like, “Dave, Dave, I want you to meet some friends here. Come sit at this table.”

And I sit down, and it’s Sacha Baron Cohen, like, my fing hero, and Pee-wee Herman. And I’m like, “Holy f, dude.” And both of them are just huge art fans. So like, they don’t know my art, but David Arquette’s talking. He’s like, “This guy’s an awesome artist.” And they’re like, “Oh, cool. We want to check it out.”

And so Sacha Baron Cohen collects a lot of Banksy and this. And he’s like, “F*, dude, I got to come to your studio. I got it.” So then I’m like, “Oh, cool.” Like once again, like this, “Oh, people like me.” And if people like me, then maybe I like myself.

It’s nice. It’s nice to be liked. It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to, right? So especially Pee-wee Herman’s my art God. Like I said, Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope. But for me, that’s what I grew up on. That f*ing full commitment to that character. The voice, the king of cartoon penny, the stop motion animation. I just, it spoke to me. All the Gary Panter art.

So I go, “F*, I don’t know when I’m going to meet this guy again.” I go, “Hey, I don’t know, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, you did a movie called Blow.” And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, Blow.” I go, “Hey, did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step?” And he’s like, and like, I’m trying to read his eyes. Like, “No, I don’t remember that.” And I was like, “Ah, I guess I’m…”

But I did get his number that night. And then as I get, I hit like, I wouldn’t be here today without my friends. Just all who love me came and they’re like, “Dave, you’re not… Like, it went too far this way. You used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy, and just, you just need a lot of help.”

Breaking Generational Patterns

So like everything else, I just dedicated. I stopped. Obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men’s groups, 12-step meetings, just whatever. If someone said it was going to help you, I’m like, you’re just breaking like generations of f*ing Asians hit their kids, all… everyone got sent away, every… I know, but I wanted to stop.

It’s either I f*ing kill myself or I needed to stop. And enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough, and I did what? I got the podcast, the band, like, the people, and they go, “They’ll be fine. Everyone’s going to figure it out.” And I got help.

And as soon as I was out of the first rehab, like 45 days, I was like, “I’m going to do a podcast about this.” And they’re like, Matt out there, he’s just like, “Hey, why don’t you live this life before you start telling…” He’s like, “But I learned so many…” They go, “Yeah, but why don’t you implement it in your life?”

And so I’m 49 now. I rarely do podcasts. I still do something creative every single day. I like to do it with other people. I’ve, I’d like to thank the sponsor today for this, God. I know people are like, “Oh, you’re all, you’re religious.” I go, “I don’t, I don’t believe in God, but I still pray to him.”

And like, God, whatever you want to call it, the, like, whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn’t care if I believe in him. He’s still there, right? It’s like such an ego thing. “I don’t believe…” Who cares what you… The thing. It’s like saying you don’t believe in the ocean. The ocean is still there.

So I want to thank that guy. And so as I live this life, and then I start to be like, “What is my purpose? Why am I here? What is…” Before, your art was about like disgustingness and offending people, and it was just a f you just showing people, “Hey, Asian people aren’t all quiet.” Like, you’re a rebel. Like, show, like, you’re supposed to shut the f up and become a lawyer or doctor.

And it just like, I always tell people, they go, “How do I make it? I want to be…” I go, “I’m an expert in disappointing my parents. You must disappoint your parents.” Like, my dad is so disappointed in me over and over again until he’s not.

But I’m like, what would have happened if I didn’t disappoint him? I would have got a pretty high SAT. I would have probably been on my second marriage, lawyer golf, like. And he’d be like, “I don’t know. I don’t know.” But I know that he’s proud of me now. And it was like a long, hard path to get there.

Finding Purpose Through Service

And so I go, and part of me, if you can’t tell by now, it goes like this. The pendulum swings very hard. So I said to myself, “I’m going to…” Like, everything up until now has been about, “Look at me, let me show you.” And it’s like, and I go, “I got to take some space for me now.”

And I work with all these youth groups and stuff. And people go, “Hey, you did a lot of media and you did a lot of s* where you put yourself out there showing the worst part of yourself and like, trying to prove to people that you’re not a good person. Like, it would touch people and help people to see like your journey and your path.”

And I go, “F* that. I’m not going to put myself through that. Like, I’m taking space.” And they’re like, “Yeah, but like, at some point are you going to share your story?” And I go, “No, that’s too literal. I hate words. Words can be confused. Words can be misconstrued. I’m not doing that. I’m just, I’m just doing this. And this is enough.”

Like, your ego goes, “Oh, I’m working with 12 kids today, but if it was filmed, it could reach millions of people.” And it’s like, “No, you’re working with 12 kids today. And that’s it. And that’s enough,” right?

But then at some point after year, this is years, a decade of recovery, I thought, “Well, part of the reason why I hate working with…” Not, and like Netflix, Hulu, HBO, it doesn’t matter. Like, they’re all corporations. They could be cool or whatever, but, and even podcast, which was, that’s the conversation we had. I’m like, “It all gets edited. It’s like as soon as anything gets a little…”

And so I go, “I’ll just make my own show because I have money to do that and it’s not going to cost that much. And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won’t.”

Creating The Choe Show

So I started making my version of Pee-wee’s Playhouse, which was The Choe Show. And it came out on FX on Hulu, and I got to learn what taking notes and having corporate feedback and whatever. I’m grateful that it happened, but they killed a lot of the episodes.

And everyone’s like, “What’s your, who’s your dream guest?” And I was like, “It doesn’t matter. I’ll talk to anybody. I’ll talk to like the garbage man. I’ll talk…” But they’re like, “It’s for TV, so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people.” And I was like, “I want Pee-wee Herman.”

And I had his number still from Sizzler. So I called him and Pee-wee Herman’s like, I don’t know if he’s just one of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year or a Christmas card. I was like, it just, every time I got it, I would send, show all my friends. I’m like, it just made me feel so good.

So, yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he wanted for my art to disrupt the world. I have the nice message from Howard Stern, and I have the voice.

So I called Pee-wee, and he’s like, “Dave, I got some stuff, some health stuff going on, and, and he’s like, I feel honored. Thank you. Like, I love your art.” Now he got to learn a little bit about me. And he’s like, “And I would love to be on your show, but I just, I don’t know. I don’t want to be on camera anymore.”

And he’s like, “You could send the episodes, and I’ll, I’ll give you some, like, if you’re open to it.” I was like, “Of course I will.” And it was just, I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe that I was talking to him, and he like, was talking back to me as an equal.

And then, I mean, but I got it right away. He’s, he’s not going to do it. And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, “You paint butts really good.” Oh, man, he got it. He got it. And he’s like, “I’m old. I don’t want to talk on the microphone.”

The Importance of Presence and Connection

So I don’t know if that answered your question about the South Bay. I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but I don’t know, like, when people, like, I feel like you’re an open person, so if you ask me something, I’m like, and you’re ready to go into my head space, and we can go there together.

Then I feel like cared for, listened to. And like, I’m like, because people listen, and they’re not present. They’re looking at their phone. They’re like, “Okay, this show is two hours.” And I’m like, “I got a lot…” And that’s also how I write. Very long run-on sentences, no punctuation.

So there’s no, like, creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it’s not like my, my path is not someone else’s path. And today, it’s just, every day I wake up, which, with what I didn’t have before, which is gratitude, I just wake up, and it’s like, I had a horrible day today. Like, it was not good.

Like, the fing, like, flat tire, appointment canceled, move back. Fing crazy family s* happening with my dad. I was just like, I, I wasn’t going to cancel, but the feeling was like, “That’s not this. Not the right headspace to go.”

And then I said, “You know what? Every…” Like, I could sit there and like, self-analyze. “Oh, you have depression, you have this.” And it’s like almost some weird OCD. Like, “And you’re a horrible person. And you, and you, you have antisocial traits.” And they go, “Okay, and then what are you going to do about it?”

Examining the Heart

And so I sit back now, and if I examine my life like a scientist, I go, “Hey, what was, what was all that s about on your podcast? Why did you say that stuff on your podcast? Why, why did you like, do that thing that’s against your value system? Why did you… What was about the fing, like, all the suicidal ideation, all the stuff times you try to kill… Like, what was that about?”

And not just, like I said, like, logically, I know if I sound hypocritical, not just trying to like analyze it, like, but just an examination of my, my own heart, like, doing an X-ray of my heart. It’s like, “What, what were you feeling then? And what, like, what is the shame hitting? And why did you do that?”

And like, so I sit there and I go, we live in a, I’ll use I statements. I live in the way the culture I was grown was, when someone asks you how you’re doing, it’s just “good,” “okay,” which aren’t emotions. That’s all you say. You don’t go, “Oh, let me tell you, like, I’m feeling shame today.”

And so we live, I live in, I lived, I was raised in a culture of “everything’s fine, everything’s okay, get along to go along.” I was a lot of like, Asian, the only Asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods was like, “Don’t…” It’s a lot of immigrant story, right? Like, “Don’t rock the boat. Don’t do anything to stand out. We’re guests in this country. We’re lucky to be here. Don’t do basically everything I did.”

Like, keep, clear up the campground, leave it nice. And so I sit here, and if I’m being introspective, this is all this stuff is like, this is why I say this would be intimate, because it’s just private stuff that I don’t like. I’m trying to just know my own heart.

So it’s like, “What, why, what is the insane opening Pokémon packs about?” Like, right, you could turn that into a joke. Or like, “What is, what is the unmet need? Like, what is your depression telling you right now? What is your anger?”

If your anger is like unmatched with like, “Oh, there was like a little flare-up at school. Some kid said something to your kid.” And then like, your response is like, “Yeah,” like, “What’s that about?”

So instead of shaming myself and going, “I’m a piece of s*. Oh, I did all this work and I, and I’m still this. It’s this.” And I think if I can get quiet and right-sized in that moment instead of, “Oh, I need to like make a story in my head to be like…” And just, just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable.

Like, if I can do that, I couldn’t do that before. I can’t, like, you have to either look at me like I’m nothing or I’m the greatest. I can’t just, “Oh, Dave’s kind of boring today, or he’s kind of not making sense, or he feels like…” I couldn’t have to be all or nothing. It was very black and white, very Christian the way I was raised. OCD, like God’s way or Satan’s way.

Finding the Middle Ground

And so now I just go, “That’s, that’s Palo Alto.” If I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like

The Bridge Between Reality and Action

DAVID CHOE: And they say the space in your brain, there’s like a bridge. Like, here’s reality. It’s like, should I jump off this cliff? And most people will executive function, like, okay, maybe I’m going to get hurt. And that bridge is smaller for people like you. They saw, like, a little. They go, so you don’t really think, you just do.

And then that’s how you end up in jail. How did I fing… that. Like, and that makes for a great story that makes for a great fing life. Or like a storybook crazy life that makes for… And that’s a story that’s just told. Like, you need to be a f*ing psychotic, insane, crazy person to be the greatest artist, right?

If you’re just like a boring person living at home with air conditioning and Wi-Fi and your warm cup of Earl Grey, you could do good art. You could even do great art, but you won’t ever be the best because you’re not facing your shadow. You’re not looking at yourself. You’re just… That’s just technique. That’s just craft. That’s just skill.

Like, I’m ripping my fing heart out and showing it to you and be like, what do you think? I’m not saying, what do you think? I’m like, fing… What do you, you know?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I feel it. That, I mean, I feel it.

DAVID CHOE: Okay.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You know, I mean, I…

DAVID CHOE: Sorry. There’s like spit all over the table.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Please don’t apologize. Don’t apologize. No, please don’t.

DAVID CHOE: It’s slobbering right into your microphone.

Feeling the Truth

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No apology. You guys almost got me there. No apology. I feel it. I mean, I feel it and everybody feels it. And if they don’t, they should take a look inside. Like we’re… It’s going to sound like I’m name dropping now, but go ahead, go for it.

DAVID CHOE: Now, but go ahead, go for it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I feel very blessed to have Rick Rubin as my close friend. Right. Not because he’s Rick Rubin who produced all this music that’s super cool too.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: But because he has antennae and he can feel shit.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And he can feel it, but he doesn’t get absorbed in it. It’s very interesting. I don’t have that. Yeah, I feel stuff. And it just…

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I… Certain people feel your heart in what you do. The self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about. I can relate.

DAVID CHOE: Well, I talked to Rob a little bit because he’s like a…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: PR dude before was a PR. He’s like a producer.

The Power of Saying No

DAVID CHOE: I mean, he’s out of it. Yeah. That smile hides a lot of pain right there. Look at that smile. But, yeah, it’s hard. Like, you know, they say these, all these like dumb quote. Like “no” is a complete sentence and it is. Right. I go, no. And then have to make up some fake… Like, oh, but like I got, you know, my car did get a flat tire, but that was a thing I would make up.

And then people would be like, let me see the metadata on your phone and make sure that’s not a screenshot from like two years. You know, like, so I would lie and make up excuses, but the ability to… It goes against how I was raised. It goes against my culture to just say no to my parents, no to jobs, no to think, like leaving money on the table, saying so that I could put myself first for the first time and nurture my own heart and take care of myself is like, it just sounded like that’s… I’d already written my story.

I’m like, you know, and then when you have heroes like Bourdain, like, I think a lot of people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that because they’re like, if the most interesting man on the planet, the guy that’s a role model, a guy look up to, like he’s not… He can’t fing figure it out, then f what’s there and, and then almost validates it. Like it’s so you can do it too. Like anyone.

Like, so I, it was just, it’s just I had it written out. Like everyone I look to look up to and it’s so f*ing boring and cliche when I think about it makes me so angry. It’s like, you know, live fast, die young, and then just have people say nice shit about you and it’s like… Or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships.

Like I, you call me you’re probably busy. I’m like, I’m not that busy, dude. I’m not a busy person. I make a lot of space for myself now. I don’t like, I… And I deserve it. Like, I owe that to myself.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I was about to say you’ve earned it, but you never needed to earn it, you know? Yeah, I’m glad to hear it because…

Taking Time Off

DAVID CHOE: Will you commit to taking a year off?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I could use some time off.

DAVID CHOE: All right, so that sounds like… I’ll start the negotiations at a year and then if I can get you anywhere close to that, because people will be like, oh shit, you know, like the American vacation is like a week or two weeks, right? That’s nothing. That’s like barely enough time to…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Yeah, I have all these war stories. I don’t want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories. Like, you know, my girlfriend at the time, she’ll validate these as, you know, being, you know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when. And you know, I mean, if I… I’ve had so many wonderful opportunities, but I’ve been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19. Like that means non-stop. That means like 50 to 100 hour weeks since then.

DAVID CHOE: Like, what’s the longest vacation you’ve ever taken in your life?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Four days.

Connection and Deserving Rest

DAVID CHOE: I mean, this isn’t me deflecting. It’s just like I just met you and like, I’m so happy that like I was like, if I can… If he gives me the space to speak, which you did. And you can feel what I… Like what I was trying to say. And, like, to me, like, that’s all I want is connection, right? Like, that’s… I want to be seen.

Now, before, I was hiding and wearing masks, but in that, I felt you, and I go… I didn’t know what you were going to say, but I was like, it’s going to be less than a week. Because you don’t get… Because I know you don’t get to where nobody does. Everyone pays the price. You don’t get to where you are right now by taking time off. You just don’t.

But, like, you just said to me, I’ll say it back to you. You deserve it. And I… And to speak to the workaholic part of you. And I say this to people that are like, you and me. You will have more ideas, more inspiration, more… Like, you can’t think now because you’re thinking about, how’s Rob going to get paid? How’s the… Because you take care of a lot of people, right?

But in that time, I could come… I could get rid of all this black. I could make out some color here. I could get you some white T-shirts. You could spend time with your family. Just the shit that you’re running from, you know?

And I feel like, okay, a year is unrealistic. You’re like, I’m running. You know, but it’s… It will like, people, oh, go do plant medicine. I was like, just taking a year off, and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workaholism of just, I got to do something to have value and to just… And I feel like it will… When you come back, you’ll be like a thousand. You know, like…

And sometimes in our culture, we get knocked down not by our choice. And then… But I’m like, this would be by your choice. You know, I… Taking care of Andy today. Love you, Rob. Love you all you guys out there. But, you know… You know what? I’ll run your podcast while you’re gone.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: That would be…

DAVID CHOE: I’ll do all the science. I’ll… You could feed me some big words to use. But…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I’ll go paint.

Art as the Opposite of Thinking

DAVID CHOE: Oh, my God. I’m going to… Yeah, I’m… I feel more comfortable with you now. It’s like… Like, I think I would lie to you. Like, whatever. Whatever you showed me, I’d be like, oh, that’s cool. But, like, I think it’s cool that anyone who’s an egghead who spends time up here. I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it’s just… It’s the opposite of that, right? You’re using the other side of your brain.

But it sounds like the way you’re painting is very in your head. And I would just rip you out of that and it would be very uncomfortable. But then you could see the kind of like life, right? You just see. Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and, and… And through that. It’s about control, right?

I had… I had to, you know, and part of being in 12-step in recovery is like… And, you know, and the wisdom to know the difference. You know, the thing, the Serenity Prayer is… I had to, like, you can’t control Mother Nature. You can’t control a fire. You can’t control what other people are going to think about you or say about you. You just can’t.

You could try to let me write a paper and like, so that… And, and yeah, you could do that for a little bit, but it’s tiring and it’s exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what, you know, like… And so I… Yeah, I just… It goes… It’s anti. It goes against the word winning and the wind. Surrender, right?

Like, I win every day because I surrender constantly now. And part of that I got to still fight because it’s like, you sound like a loser. Why are you giving up, right? It’s going to fing shut the f up, pick yourself up by your, you know, bootstraps and get back in, you know, like, that’s how you become the best.

Like all the other artists there’s, like, dealing with… Like, you don’t have kids, you don’t get married, you fing paint. You go to the art store, you buy all the paint up, you fing keep painting. You steal all the paint. It’s like, just keep painting. Never stop. And it’s all going to be worth it because one day you’re going to die and then legacy.

But now we see legacy is nothing, right? I get… I get in an Uber. Get in the car. Smells like Teen Spirit, right? One of the greatest anthems ever. Guy in the car. 27 years. What’s this?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, I’ll tell you.

DAVID CHOE: You don’t know Nirvana, okay? Have you seen Goodfellas? Like, whatever, whatever. Who’s the Godfather? Like, go down the list.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The greatest.

DAVID CHOE: Nobody cares, right?

ANDREW HUBERMAN: The great over the greatest son.

Legacy Is Nothing

DAVID CHOE: It’s just this. It’s just this. This is all you have. So you’ve done enough. People fing love you. You’ve helped so many people, and I want you to take one year off. And I don’t care if people are like, f that guy. That guy helps me every day. I want to hear his soothing voice every night. But I’m like, AI, bro, just use it. No, I’m kidding.

I’m just saying I would love whatever you’ve been running from, whatever you’ve been doing to, like, you help a lot of people, but do you help yourself on that level? And it’s like, yeah, starting painting. That’s taking care of you. Like, it’s not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people, like, you are not going to outsmart the feeling, right? You’re not going to outrun the pain.

And it’s like… Like, I don’t know what your father was like. I don’t know what your mom was like, but they’re proud of you. Like, you don’t need to do more. Like, they’re proud of you. And… And, like, if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them. You just got to f*ing… Andrew. I’m really disappointed in you. Then you know you’re doing something right. You know?

Sorry for talking over you.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I was interrupting.

DAVID CHOE: What? Like, your face says a lot, so I just want to know what your try to…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but it’s not. Let’s let pass. Because, yes, and yes, the legacy thing, it…

DAVID CHOE: It’s nothing.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: It’s nothing.

The Journey from Head to Heart

DAVID CHOE: I’ve done so much in acting. I’ve done all these things, and people are like, “Who’s that Chinese kid?” I’m like, it doesn’t matter. Well, they don’t say it doesn’t matter. You do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind. And I go, you just have this. You just have right now, today, and that’s it.

We’re going to do this today, and then it’s off to the universe. I can’t control what people are going to think about me. I came here today with my intention of meeting you, telling you how you make me feel and how much I appreciate you. And I did that. So that’s it.

I have no ill will. I’m not trying to… Yeah, I probably talk sht about a lot of people right now, but it’s like, fine, okay. That’s my… And I should probably just let all that stuff go. But to tell someone who’s used to winning, who’s fought tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and prove people wrong over and over again, to tell someone like that, “Hey, just surrender.” It’s like, “F you, dude. You don’t… You don’t tell me that.”

So yeah, that journey from head to heart is a big one. And that’s why you can’t say that to everyone, right? Because they’re like, “I got a…” But I’m like, I don’t know your financial situation, but I’m like, I think you could take a year off. But that’s the other thing, right? “Must be nice” from your perspective. And I go, I was homeless. I’ve lived the worst. I know I sound defensive, but I wasn’t born rich. I worked for this, so it’s like, “Must sound nice from a rich guy’s perspective.”

Creative Output and Deprivation

DAVID CHOE: And I go, if I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most creative moments, it was always less. It was never more, right? So when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to… We’re living together in a… You know, and it’s f*ing cold, but at least we got body… You know, I’m making it sound like we were okay, but I’m like, we didn’t have that much. And it was great because we had each other.

And I think back and I go, okay, creative output. Let’s go to work. You know, let’s go back into my head. I go, oh, every time I had a renaissance level creative explosion, there was no Wi-Fi and there was no heater. It was always freezing. It was cold. You’re talking about deprivation. Yeah.

Now, with my attention span, it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn’t go out of my way to block all my electronic devices. I couldn’t do it.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: My social media is on a separate phone. It goes into a lockbox that can’t be coded out. You don’t need to get work done. I mean, what I hear… Well, first of all, I want to…

The Challenge of Taking Time Off

DAVID CHOE: Be clear that I don’t need an answer from you. I’m just throwing the challenge of the gauntlet down. I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met, who I care about, and I… We’re humans, right? Can’t just run forever. There needs to be a recharge, a refresh. There’s just things that you get offered, I guess you’re like, “I’m never going to do that.”

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I’m not saying, why don’t you…

DAVID CHOE: Why don’t you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your journey for a month? You’re like, “I’m not going to f*ing do that.” And it’s like, but why not? You deserve it. And it’s going to be hard. It’s not like a fun vacation.

And for me, the way I think about it is part of… Because I take podcasting… So I’m… It does. I try to manicure how I look and sound, and I do a lot of research, people, and I try to make it look like I didn’t. Right. Before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern, I call up people and I f*ing do… I talk for 12… I go, “Is this work?” And then I come on and I try, and that’s fake.

And it’s been years since I did a podcast. I was like, I’m getting a very genuine feeling from you, and so I don’t want to do that today. And I was fing… That’s why I was puking. I was scared. I was like, I’m just going to come in and I might say something that fs me up because it has so many times, but I’m just going to be the truest version of… I guess I could. That was scary to me. That was really being naked.

I like to be prepared. And last night, it was late. I couldn’t sleep, and I was like, “Oh f*, I can’t believe…” Because it’s like, I live a quiet… And I was like, “Oh man.” It was like, let me… Not like you’re the enemy. I was like, “Oh, I’m going into enemy territory. What if he has a gotcha question?” I have to have a… You know, it was like I was at Vice again, you know. Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks. And I was like, “This is exhausting.”

And I was like, “But can you just go and just…” You know. And I realize it took me two hours to answer one question, but I also accept that about myself, you know? But yeah, I started… I… Andrew, Hugh… And then I was like, “You’re it finishes your name and all.” And I was like, “I’m not going to do this. I don’t want to do this. I don’t want to just read about you all night and then have come in prepared.” Great, great. I was like, I’m so glad. I’m so glad I abandoned that. I did. I said, “Just f*ing, dude.” Yeah.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I’m so grateful you showed up here in that frame. That no frame frame.

DAVID CHOE: Yeah.

Why You’re Here

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you’re going to get that thing, but I’m just going to tell you. I’ll tell you a couple… Also, there are a couple reasons you’re here. Some of them I touched on earlier. You’re amazing artist, you’re amazing person. But the main reason you’re here is because a long time ago I saw you at a meeting and I learned from you there. And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend.

DAVID CHOE: Oh, wow.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And I know I can learn a lot from him.

DAVID CHOE: Oh, my God.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: So without getting into any details about…

DAVID CHOE: I mean, you can. I don’t care.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Well, maybe another time.

DAVID CHOE: I told you, you know, you’ve helped me.

Learning from the Cycle

ANDREW HUBERMAN: You helped me a ton. I also have this model in my head. Maybe this is the scientist in me where… But I feel like you’ve made yourself like the anvil, the hammer, end of metal… And it’s like this cycle of the opportunity to do something, to feel something, and then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame, but to me, it’s the whole cycle. Right.

But the thing that I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth. Yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting, and entertaining also. And yes, you have a gift for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art. But it’s people learn.

And we touched on Bourdain, who I didn’t know. I know you and Joe were both close to him. I know a couple other people were close to him. And, you know, I’m not here on a public service campaign. That’s not how I do this podcast. I’m only here with you right now. But, you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves. My close friend do that recently, a very famous scientist that appeared to have everything, this kind of thing, and it’s happening more and more.

And I think that when people hear you… When I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you. And they hear the extent to which… Yeah, there a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happened, but you’re still here and you’re still going. And that example is really, really important.

From Surviving to Thriving

DAVID CHOE: Well, I don’t want to… I don’t want to be a survivor, you know. It’s like, I’m a survivor because I survived all this stuff, but so did everybody. And I’m not trying to…

ANDREW HUBERMAN: And you’re…

DAVID CHOE: But you’re still going, but I don’t want to survive. I want to thrive. Right? You’re a thriver. That’s why I think of Korean Jesus or Pee Wee Herman. And I go, it was like, I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a lot. It was really painful, right? If you get it, it wasn’t easy, and it wasn’t easy for everyone.

But so then you go, “Well, will you work on yourself? Will you do this work? Will you go to a meeting?” And it’s like, “Are we having fun yet?” Right? It’s like, it’s a lot of f*ing pain and work to just be, you know? And the question is, I want to put… Is like, “Are we having fun yet?” Isn’t… Are we supposed to have fun?

My son wakes up every morning laughing. I go, “What the f is happening up there? What is…” I can’t remember the last time I woke up smiling. It’s like… And I’m like, oh, if we can remember… I loved it. You guys scared the sht… You know, and it’s people, you know, trigger warning. They did… There’s a lot of people killing themselves. On an epidemic. Men. I don’t know that many women, but a lot of men.

And so a powerful tool because… Because I’ve done so much reckless… I am… It’s… I’m a miracle that I’m here right now. And I’m not saying that to be like, “Oh, I just…” No, I think I could have been dead a lot of times.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: No, I think God’s been looking out for you.

Playing the Tape Out

DAVID CHOE: So I say to myself, without aggrandizing myself or being on some guru messiah type sh*t, I made it through that. I am having fun, despite how much I cry and stuff. But even that, I wouldn’t be called a pussy and all that if I did that. And I go, I’m just allowing myself to feel everything.

And so I learned this tool called just play the tape out, right? So you go, if you’re an idiot, you’re an idiot. But if you have any level of intelligence, you go, well, how do you think this ends for you? How do you think this drug problem ends for you? How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you? How do you think non-stop… it doesn’t end well, right?

That’s one of my favorite things to tell my friend. That’s okay. Right now it’s maggot. But addiction, it just escalates. It doesn’t stay. You don’t just kind of get… and in someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So it’s dangerous. And an addiction loves novelty, right?

So if someone’s sucking d*ck for crack in an alley right now, that little boy, he never… he wasn’t a little boy. When they go, “I hope I do that one day,” that started with weed, then it went to coke and just escalated, right? He wasn’t like, “I want to do degrading acts that I don’t want to do for drugs,” but it escalated.

And that’s on the addict side. But I just found myself having a lot of… I swear, weird broken promise, “I swear I’ll never do that.” But then I’m like, here I am in this weird place doing weird sh*t that it’s going against my value system. Here I am, oh, I’m chasing the shame again.

So I know this is kind of hypocritical because I’m applying logic again, but if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of, “Hey, you’re not an idiot. Play the tape out.” Your behavior that’s chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it’s on the path and you’re like, “Yeah, I’ll be alright.” It’s like, just play it out. How do you think this ends for you, right?

The Weight of Podcasting

I go, I need to go back to podcasting, right? And then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet? Or is it like you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders. You seem miserable. You seem like you can find… I’m not just in general, I don’t find podcasters happy people. It’s just, it’s like, I go, so when are… when you know, and oh, look, cut, let’s go. And like, “Ah, sht, sponsors. I got to fing… the numbers are going down this.” And I’m like, can we have fun?

Is it only about making money and just… it’s enough. And it’s because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up, it’s not hundreds, it’s thousands of messages telling you you’re not enough, right?

And so I do the brain mapping. I do it and it’s like, “Wow, Dave, you’re really hard on yourself. You say so much.” It’s like if someone said that to my friend, I would do something. So it’s a lot of punishing self-talk.

And then it feels gay to say “I’m enough.” You know, it’s like, that’s that again. Why do you have to say it like that? It’s like, “Oh, I’m worthy, I am a good person, I am a good father, I am a good friend, I am a good brother.” You know, it’s like this sounds like just self-help, but I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world. So why can’t I brainwash myself into thinking I’m a good person?

Brainwashing Yourself with Positivity

So then I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like that’s how I feel. Who’s like, “That’s weird.” I don’t want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him, but it does. I mean, even for black it does.

So the tools is riding with deodorant, like a thick, white, chunky deodorant, just so I see it. So it’s in my psyche because every day it’s billboards of good-looking people and I don’t look like that. And so the messaging is all fed up. And unless I’m just going to say f all Internet and just move to the African wilderness, which I might do, just write on the wall, “I am worthy. I’m enough.”

And I see it every morning when I wash my face. And it’s just like I’m starting to brainwash myself. It’s like, that’s one tool is telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them. Not till they’re dead, not till it’s like they’re in their bottom and I’m like, “Hey.” And it’s like I tell them every day because that’s all we have.

And then I say that about myself, and then I can catch myself. That bridge that was basically a suicide bridge. It’s reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior. But all of this sh*t is hard because I’m coming at it with generations of a story that says you need to stay sick.

When you hear Kanye say, “Bipolar is my superpower,” there’s a part of me that’s like, of course. And I like my artist fed up, the more fed up you are. That’s true genius. That’s, you know… And I go, you know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who’s as creative as you is, so you’re so boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things.

Can You Be Creative and Stable?

It’s like, is there anyone who lives a moderate life, just a regular, does everything, doesn’t have to be jumping on a train and that is doing great art? And I go, show me an example. There’s… And I go, but couldn’t you be the first? Well, there’s ego and narcissism. It’s just… And then, okay, fine, let’s just go. Let’s go with… Let’s play that tape out.

Let’s just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you’re never going to have the best podcast or the best art. You’re just going to be kind of right there, 70%. What’s wrong with that? You know? But that’s not… That’s going against everything, right?

So I have to… It’s hard, you know, and especially something with art where it’s in… There’s just people that are like, “You’re literally doing the worst art I’ve ever seen in my life. You know, I wish…” You know, it’s like, “Oh, their first album was good” type sh*t, you know. And there’s part of me that’s like, yeah, this earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over. And the stuff now is way more looser and… But I love it now. I like myself, how I feel.

And it’s very rare that you have… It’s, you know, the whole “lonely at the top” that you have these champions, people that are the best at what they do. The top 1% of the world champion of this is that you meet them and they’re just a content, satisfied, happy… They’re just miserable. And you’re like, what was the point? Why?

And it’s either you have the courage through yourself and friends to make that change. If you take a year off, we’re going to hang out a lot, we’re going to paint, we’re going to do all that. But it’s always like, you got to do it alone. That was my message. Shut the f up. Don’t complain. Very Asian, very Korean. Don’t say anything. Someone fing treats you sh*t. Keep your head down and just… It’s all… Revenge is a dish best served cold, you know.

Just fing shut… Don’t ever let them know. See what you coming, see how you feel. And just your revenge is success. Just like that guy treated you sht at work. Then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him, you know. Oh, I’m so f*ing glad that guy Chip got fired. That felt so good.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Chip sounds like an asshole.

Simple But Not Easy

DAVID CHOE: He was such an asshole. But I… So you just… I have in those things all these tools are like, okay, cool. They’re all simple. Okay. Wake up every day and say, “I’m a good person.” Yeah. It’s simple, but it’s hard. It’s not easy. You have to work at it and feel it.

Yeah. Oh, get up every day and do a hundred push-ups. I could do that, but I don’t. But you could. It’s like, but you care about your physical health. But why wouldn’t you do that for your mental health, your spiritual health, you know? “Oh, I’m not religious.” It’s like spirituality is… It’s the ocean, it’s the universe. It’s a power greater than you. Right.

So, yeah, that playing the tape out is a very valuable, powerful… I need to take action in this way. And sometimes the action is to do less and it’s to do nothing. Where everything growing up was do more. And I was going to say, am I making any sense? But through your face I could see that I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me. So thank you.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank you. You are absolutely heard and you’re absolutely understood and I’m very grateful to you. And I know everyone listening is too. The permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is… That’s oddly the hardest thing. But the encouragement is heard. It lands.

Hope, Faith, and the Power of Connection

DAVID CHOE: I think also because I talk so much about shame, I’ll end it with this. It feels like hope and faith is also a very powerful drug. And sometimes, like I said, with my mom or me believing in Santa, there’s no logic in that. But entire wars and nations are fought over faith.

And I feel like because I’m sensitive and I’m empathetic to everybody that I meet, it feels like a really hopeless time. And I feel like that’s why there’s a lot of self-harm and depression. And so it’s weird. It’s like, how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there’s 70,000 homeless people, natural disasters, drug epidemics, all this sh*t.

And it’s like then to brainwash yourself. Because that’s what the connection is. If I don’t believe it, to fight, to go out there and meet someone in real life and say, “Hey, I’m having…” It was the hardest thing to do. It’s like, “I need help right now. I can’t…” It’s weird to admit to someone that I can’t do… I can’t even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can you say something nice about me?

That sounds very egotistic, but I need that right now. I really don’t like myself right now. And to have someone say something nice and you go, “Okay, maybe tomorrow I’ll be able to say something nice about myself.” And then you’re building something called hope and faith.

So I don’t know. I told a long Pee Wee Herman story, but at the end of that I was like, what was that? It’s like, okay, that’s resilience. That’s taking chance, that’s believing in yourself. But I never gave up hope. And that’s delusional in a way. But that’s like, if you take facts and numbers and it’s like, “This is the end of the world. This is like AI’s going to kill…” All this fing doomsday post-apocalyptic… I don’t need that sht, dude.

I don’t watch horror movies. I don’t surround myself with that. That’s fine. Everyone do your own thing. And like I said, we were both like, we like punk, but we don’t like hardcore. I used to love hardcore because I needed that. I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, “Oh, that guy’s singing at a frequency that’s resonating with me.” It doesn’t now.

And I fing hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy. And now I listen to reggae. I go to Reggae on the River or whatever. And I immediately judge. I can’t believe you’re fing listening to reggae. This is stoner music. But the frequency is hitting me now, so I can be appreciative of hardcore music.

But yeah, if I look back and I go, what? What was that? What the f* was that? It was just screaming for help. Lost and hopeless. And I just go, hope is a hard thing to have in a time like this, but not if you ask for help, not if you reach out, not if you connect with other people.

The Necessity of Digital Detox

And that is going to be impossible to do if you don’t… Now I sound like I’m a f*ing know-it-all, but it’s like you need to deprive yourself of electronics. It has to happen. You can’t have real emotion if you’re watching TV or your phone. It’s the only way.

It’s a secret language. Anytime I’m out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone, they have, whatever you call it, I give a wink. Yeah, because I know. I’m like, this guy, he cares about himself.

Because you can’t… I got to focus. No, you don’t. You don’t need to know who’s being murdered in every country. And what are you going to do about it? Nothing.

So I believe, I have faith that we’re all here for a reason. And to anyone listening, and I don’t know when this is coming out, and I didn’t know… I honestly didn’t know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus. But it is the season. Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas?

Okay, just try it on. Just, I know it’s stupid, but just believe in Santa. All the… I know kids already do, but any grownups, bitter, jaded adults listening, just try it on this year. Just… And if you need… He can teleport. He’s a mutant. He has special abilities. And he knows if you’ve been naughty or nice.

So, yeah, I don’t know. We could… I could… This is the problem, because where we’re at now is when I would start… This was the pre… When I used to do my podcast DVD, I say we… This be like, “Oh, it wasn’t a podcast because it wasn’t a conversation. It was you talking the whole time.” And we’re three hours in. And then… And be like, “Okay, now let’s start. Let’s get ugly and real.”

Nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude. I’m like, I do. So I’m going to… I feel like you’d be down if we wanted to go six more hours easy and we could maybe do that one day. But I feel like I don’t know. Am I… You know what? I’m surrendering. I feel like unless you have more sh*t to ask me, then I’m down, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: In the language of meetings and other things, I think for now, yeah, we’re complete.

DAVID CHOE: Thank you so much, man.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank you.

DAVID CHOE: Thank you. That was so… I mean, I feel good.

ANDREW HUBERMAN: I feel good too. Very grateful. Thank you.

DAVID CHOE: Thank you.

Closing Remarks

ANDREW HUBERMAN: Thank you for joining me for today’s discussion with David Choe. To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions. If you’re learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That’s a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

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For those of you that haven’t heard, I have a new book coming out. It’s my very first book. It’s entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I’ve been working on for more than five years and that’s based on more than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation, and of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included.

The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body.

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Thank you once again for joining me for today’s discussion with David Choe. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

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