ANI Podcast: #EP 372 with author Bina Ramani (Transcript)

It was not nothing to do with me. As a matter of fact this whole thing. I was living in New York at a gallery there which with a partner and I had just come back from New York a week before.

I used to hear from Malini, “Mommy, you won’t believe our friends from school and college get together and on Thursday evenings we can’t afford the big Thursday night happens at the Hyatt Hotel. There’s a club there. We can’t afford the gins and so we get together here and I get hundred, I get dhaba to serve us fixed plates of dinner and everybody brings their own wine and we have the music and the place. So we’ve been having so much fun.”

They started with maybe 15 and another week, 20, 30. They had been four weeks. It was only four weeks old now. I had arrived a week before. And in that last week, she said, “Mommy, parents of. We were friends. Parents of the. Malini and I had Malini and her friends. Parents were friends.” She said last night, your friends, their parents had also arrived and they’ve loved, loved it so much.

I called one or two of them that I was close to. They said, “Oh, your daughter, Malini. What an amazing location.” So weather’s perfect. It was the month of March and they had gotten into April now and it was hot. We didn’t have much funds, so there was no air conditioning indoors. It used to be only open during shopping hours for lunch. Place used to close at night, only Thursday nights because of our friends. It was never intended or planned to be a club or party zone like that.

SMITA PRAKASH: So basically it was a courtyard with a banyan tree in the center.

BINA RAMANI: Banyan tree. And the main big section of the building was beautiful boutiques, galleries, etc. And across was kind of a shed behind which we had a kitchen. And one day we thought we’d make it into a restaurant. So to go to the kitchen you had to go through part of that shed. It was like a shed which we were planning to decorate and put air conditioning. The summer was coming and you had to go through it to go to the kitchen. And there was a little bar counter for service from the kitchen. That’s all. It had never been used.

The Shooting: A Moment-by-Moment Account

SMITA PRAKASH: So now, late night, the party is almost ending.

BINA RAMANI: And most of the people left. And then Malini’s friends from Bombay had come and walked in with Steven Seagal. And we were at the rooftop. George enjoying the Qutb in the last hours he was leaving. Few close friends were with us. And we were seeing the huge kerfuffle down on the road was all jammed with cars coming and going.

SMITA PRAKASH: Some were leaving.

BINA RAMANI: So some were leaving. The businessmen were leaving. This one was coming with about eight, 10 friends. A bunch of Tibetans came with him too. All in. We saw the problem downstairs and we came running down to see. And just anyhow. So then we got. Steven Seagal said, “I’d rather come to the roof.”

SMITA PRAKASH: You say you heard a pop, which sounded like a balloon bursting. Then another step. I heard another pop. And this time I saw Jessica, who was standing among men now outside the bar some 15 feet away, fall to the floor. Immediately the blue kitchen door beside the counter swung open and a light skinned, stocky young man burst out into the restaurant from behind the counter in front of me.

But before that, your daughter came running and “Mummy, some men have just walked in into the restaurant. They’re using foul language.”

BINA RAMANI: True.

SMITA PRAKASH: Malini later said in her police statement that the man who would later be identified as Sidharth Vashishth, also known as Manu Sharma, had burst in with some friends, demanded some drinks. Sharma even offered a thousand rupees for a drink. Malini explained that the place was shut and there was nothing left. And he would not even get a sip for a thousand rupees. He responded that he would give a thousand rupees for a sip of her. Irritated, Malini left the restaurant. And then I met up with her right outside.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. Guess what, Smita? I saw from the glass window from above the steps. I’m coming down. Yes, I’m going to get them out. So Malini was gone. And there are three steps to that. What we used to call this a restaurant, but it hadn’t yet functioned as one. That’s it. One step, I hear the pop. Second step I go. And I suddenly see like a tooth missing, you know, among the five men. The girl falls.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you didn’t actually see anybody shooting.

BINA RAMANI: I didn’t see anyone shooting. Now, what had happened when Malini walked away? I do. I wish many times I wish Jessica had also walked away. Unfortunately. Maybe she was. She knew some of them, I don’t know. So she stayed. So he moved from the outside and went inside the counter thinking he’ll find something to drink. I’m guessing I wasn’t there. I’m just telling you what all the real witnesses talked about.

My electrician Shiv was also there for whatever. I don’t, shutting the lights so. And Shayan Munshi and Manu Sharma were now inside the bar counter.

SMITA PRAKASH: Shayan Munshi was bartending along with Jessica.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, but it had all closed. There was not really. She was right. There was not a drop of water left even. Party was long over. They were actually. There’d been such misconception. There were only about 25 people. All close friends were helping wrap up among them.

SMITA PRAKASH: So Shayan Munshi said, Jessica has been shot. Or someone said, yeah, she’s.

BINA RAMANI: And then when the boys started to move away, everybody started walking on both sides of me. The four or five boys. And this one, I couldn’t see when he came. When the door flung open, he came out and they both pointed at him, said, “He’s the one who shot Jessica.”

So I stopped him. And Jessica’s lying on the floor and I’m giving quick instruction. Now, like I’ve seen in the movies, we all. Instinct tells us the right things to do. So I’m shouting instructions. Call the police, call the ambulance. Call the police, call the doctors. Everybody was getting on their phones and calling, and I just stopped and blocked him. I didn’t let him. The door was behind me.

SMITA PRAKASH: There were so many men there.

BINA RAMANI: There were five men.

SMITA PRAKASH: No, what I mean to say is, among the guests, among the.

BINA RAMANI: Not one person came to help.

Confronting the Gunman: An Act of Courage

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re the only one who stood there trying to stop a person who. And you say he put a shiny object into his.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. When he came through the door, I have the vague reaction that he. I saw him go down because he picked up something. He may have been putting the gun back and it fell, but from coming. I saw him bending just as he stepped out the door, and something shiny he put in his pocket.

Now, when he kept saying no, no, and I’m hedging his way to step aside, me, and you say to him, I know he’s got a pistol. And some instinct told me, I do recall him bending. So I saw that it was on this side. “Okay, give me your pistol.” When he kept saying no, then I challenged him. I said, “Give me your pistol. I know you put it there.” He said, “No, I did.” I said, “Yes, you did.” I was trying to scare him because I was afraid he could do the same to me. I didn’t know who he was and why he had shot. And I.

SMITA PRAKASH: You didn’t run away when you saw a gunman?

BINA RAMANI: No. It’s my place, and he’s just done something horrific. Why would I do that? All I stop on the street and there are people that are being menaced.

SMITA PRAKASH: The reason I’m asking is because that’s the natural instinct of people, is to run away when they see a gunman. Right.

BINA RAMANI: There are also people who want you to stop and help. I would do that for a stranger, which I have done many a time. Seen a woman being beaten by a man and crowd watching. And then I have just gone and broken it up many a time. And my driver would join me. He understood.

SMITA PRAKASH: So did he push past you or did he just slide past you?

The Night of the Shooting: A Detailed Account

BINA RAMANI: He was. I knew that his heart, mind was looking at his face, recalling short, stocky, fair, curly hair and that I will not forget this. But I’ve got to. I’ve got to get him to talk. I’m buying time and I’m still shouting instructions.

So at some point, I think it was a full four or five minutes. It was a long time. People were calling and young people were leaving, walking. So he finally shoves me aside and runs past me. I chase after him and midway toward my courtyard, it’s a long run to get to the main gate. I managed to grab him by the shirt. He’s wearing a T-shirt. I grab it. It’s noticed by witnesses.

Amod Kant gets to write all this account in the next few days when he’s witness interviewing everybody. However, he wriggles free. Meanwhile, my husband’s down, my driver’s outside and the guard is there. So I run after him till the gate. Then he runs to the right, which is the way into Mehrauli and the police station, which we know very well, could have been very good caretakers for us.

So George runs behind him into the dark. My driver runs behind him into the dark. It’s about 1:15 or so at the time. That’s how late it is. And that’s it. By the time George makes it to the police station, all these accounts have been given on day one to the police. And then for the next four, five days they never were up here. They never appeared in any interview anywhere. Nobody knows.

He ran, got to the police station, told them there’s been a shooting at my place. They know my place. We’ve had so many VIPs, we had Richard Gere, all kinds of people there. So a lot of the time the police was there helping us. They know all about us. There’s been a hit and run accident. He’s saying there’s been a shooting. They didn’t bother. And he lost Manu Sharma on the way on some bike. He took off. So he just ran back. It’s about 2 kilometers from where we are.

SMITA PRAKASH: So why didn’t—

Rush to the Hospital

BINA RAMANI: I was by then in the hospital. So meanwhile, as I have reached the gate, I run back now and two of my boys have put her in a bed sheet in a table cover. And now we are walking again past the same courtyard and Malini and all her friends from Bombay are there, who had brought Steven Seagal. But Steven had left long ago and she just fainted right there. She couldn’t believe that she thought Jessica was dead. She wasn’t.

So we take her. I’m yelling again. Any cars left? Anybody? Any driver want to go to? Meanwhile, Rohit Bal managed to get a hold of Ashlok Hospital, my doctor by chance, the hospital where I had had surgery before. And I got to speak to him and told him, “Please bring a dress.”

SMITA PRAKASH: Alok Chopra, Dr. Alok Chopra.

BINA RAMANI: And the two brother doctors have been both very helpful. So Malini’s friend from Hong Kong happened to have a car and a driver. Surprisingly, by now all the cars at roads are empty. There’s nothing except this car and one or two cars of whatever us or people like that.

So I get into the car with Jiten, who’s my assistant, who’s still with us. We sit in the back seat, head is with me, the feet are with him and the driver is taking us. Within 12 minutes we reached Ashlok Hospital. At that time and I’m trying to look at her face to see where she’s got hit and I see a blue mark.

All these details were never—nobody knows about the truth. Everybody believes what the film had to say or all the paid media. It was very active paid media of sensation that everybody followed in India that we were the main butt of. However, she has blue but no blood. The blood was—there was some blood here and maybe she had fallen on this area. Just a little bit of blood here, not much.

So I’m looking, don’t know why. And then by the time we arrived at the hospital, Jiten now comes and holds her. And when someone from the hospital is there, we get on the stretcher. So he gets a bit of little blood on that sheet also, there was some, and on his shirt. It’s important I tell you this now.

Alok has taken her into ICU and we are sitting outside. Jiten has come following me. Or maybe he was in the front seat. Perhaps we were all there. And that’s when Amod Kant, we have a very good IO who comes and takes the full detail from Jiten and me. Every detail that happened exactly as it happened.

The Blood Evidence Controversy

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re saying that hardly any blood was there. And when the media says that you—

BINA RAMANI: I know that I wiped the blood. There’s no such thing as people—

SMITA PRAKASH: You instructed your staff to wipe the blood next.

BINA RAMANI: I know there is no such. And there’s no question of blood. As it turns, it’s a question of blood. I’m trying to save her life. I’m trying to grab this guy. I want control outside that’s happening outside to get all the wherewithal with the police. That’s how it all came on time. Everybody was on the phones but my instructions.

Some were in utter shock. We’re helping. Others were running away. I’m the one who gives them the red bloodied sheet when it—whatever little blood is there. And Jiten takes off his shirt on which there’s a bit of blood stain. It’s with the police. Why did they not ever bring it up in any evidence? Any court talk? None.

SMITA PRAKASH: The sheet.

BINA RAMANI: The sheet, the table cover on which there was a bit of blood on that. The same blood like the DNA or whatever is on Jiten’s shirt. He came away topless when he came back.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you—

The Cover-Up and Transfer of Key Officials

BINA RAMANI: What happened to those blood paper things? Whatever was—now you have to know that it is assumed. It is assumed obviously and we saw it continue for several years that the winds of change happened. The truth got buried more and more. The good top cop, commissioner in chief should have been there. Instead got transferred to of all states to Arunachal. You can guess the rest.

When the slogan of “No one killed Jessica Lal” happened through the Tehelka newspaper had actually come up with this phrase, Tarun Tejpal. That came as a result of the boys being—they were in jail, the five boys and they had been acquitted. It was headline news one day the boys had been acquitted, Jessica Lal case.

So the very next day Tarun Tejpal’s paper came up with this incredible headline: “Nobody killed Jessica Lal.” In that weekend, I remember it was a Friday. I just landed in Goa and I see the headline there and we have my husband, we are looking and I would say, I think I’m saying to them I have a feeling this is not going to be good for us. This cannot go down, cannot be digested by India. It cannot. There will be truth eventually.

And so sure enough in those two days I think a million SMS went forward and then there was a plea to the—

SMITA PRAKASH: To reopen the case.

BINA RAMANI: To reopen the case.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

Justice RS Sodhi’s Investigation

BINA RAMANI: Then it went to High Court and then Justice RS Sodhi was his name. He did the most incredible research. He went right down to the bottom of the very first hearing that had happened with the first investigations that were buried. Our original, all our original testimonies were all buried in the bottom somewhere, I don’t know where, whatever.

Then those series of other fake cases kept going from which they managed to acquit the boys. So when he came up and did thorough investigation, I believe under shut doors I heard things later how thoroughly he got it and he got the total truth and he was in complete shock. Where he clearly spells out and here’s a shocking part was we lived with the truth. We knew what had happened. We knew what our role was with what we had done to help. And it was completely subverted.

I just believed there would be justice one day. I just believed in that. I was ready to take on all the—they put me in jail to seal my—

SMITA PRAKASH: And they put you in jail for what? For liquor license. Not having a liquor license.

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no. Liquor license were within the—it was a 600 rupee fine in the first month. Right away. Now we are talking the fifth or sixth year.

SMITA PRAKASH: So there’s also Rani Jethmalani helps you get a bail and her father then fights the case for the opposing.

BINA RAMANI: For the money. Yeah.

Arrest and Imprisonment

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. So now explain to me why first you go into police custody, then you go into jail, Tihar. So why did—

BINA RAMANI: It was my reputation before. Now it’s quite simple. Before the case was to open in High Court, they did this thorough sit. KK Paul comes in at that time, special investigation. And he told us special investigation. And in that they lay the traps just where they want. Of course, first they called us and threatened us with passports and things like that. We were getting anonymous calls. I was getting most of them to be—

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re not an Indian passport holder.

BINA RAMANI: No, none of us is.

SMITA PRAKASH: Not George, your husband and Malini.

BINA RAMANI: My children were born there. I had a life in New York. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: So in London before that. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. So you have passports of different countries. You’re UK citizen.

BINA RAMANI: UK. And Malini’s American and George is Canadian. George is Canadian. But they’re all, you know, we’re all Commonwealth countries and we’re all—our souls are more India than most Indian people.

Passport Confiscation and Harassment

SMITA PRAKASH: Whatever the case, they tell you that your stay in India is under jeopardy. What did they say to you? Or you can’t leave India for—

BINA RAMANI: No reason at all, they just took away our passports. No, there was no reason. We’d done nothing to prove nothing. The foreign passports were like, “Oh, dread.” It’s like criminals. It’s like terrorists took it away and we couldn’t go.

I had to go to a very important wedding on my brother’s daughter that I had planned in Phuket. Made sure that they didn’t get. And my brother’s—my husband’s brother died of a stroke. A younger brother. He wanted to go there to the funeral. And he’s the only—was his only brother. They would not let him go. So we did the memorial here.

And then by the time they gave him his passport whenever, two, three years later, that made a big headline that the passport had been all torn, eaten up by rats. They were very funny headlines. People had, you know, “Who took my cheese?” kind of “Who took my passport pages?” or that. I mean, they did very embarrassing things in the face of the country they saw.

But the country was loving sensation. Why? Well, you guess why. Because most people love sensation. You go to a party in Delhi instead of talking about a tragedy that’s happening or some good news somewhere they say, “Guess what, have you heard?” And then it’s some bizarre story added with masala, masala, masala.

Delhi’s Social Scene

SMITA PRAKASH: Masala, masala. But you were the toast of town. Always.

BINA RAMANI: That’s what happens. My friends in Bangalore, Bombay, Calcutta. In our city this would never happen. It’s only Delhi. They are just so negative and they are such hypocrites. It is true. We saw it in spades like nobody else could have.

SMITA PRAKASH: I remember every single day. You were in newspapers every day because your page three parties. You were there.

Family Values and Upbringing

BINA RAMANI: We couldn’t leave. From those early years I lived on TV. I really from childhood. From a large—I’m the last of 12 children and nine that survived. All of us are—we celebrate life every day now. My brothers. We are now eight. I’m the youngest and I’m 82. So my eldest brother is going to be 100 in a couple of years.

But we—and we are all over the world. We are—it is the most important day of the week as our Sunday afternoon when we all link up on Zoom chat and we talk like we are just in an embrace away.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m going to get to your time.

BINA RAMANI: Again because there are so many. Father always wanted us to be able to serve. There were kirtans in our home and we’d be making and serving langar. Or there’d be parties, lavish parties among our Sindhi community in London. And we all had to try and be the best. And so we learned the full circle. That’s how we sisters were all brought up. I am still that. I’m going to—

The Jessica Lal Case: Media Trial and Aftermath

SMITA PRAKASH: Get to your family because a lot of what happened in your life were decisions taken because you’re part of this very close-knit family of yours. You’re getting emotional about this. Let’s deal with this thing and then we’ll come to the rest of your life. I understand that. I only want to clear this part of the Jessica Lal case so that our viewers and listeners know what happened, then about the media trial that you had to undergo. And it kind of undid all the stuff that had happened in your life before that year.

BINA RAMANI: When the good news came, it was just in one newspaper on one day. Nobody really got to read enough of it. I just quickly want to allow me.

SMITA PRAKASH: A few of them that you want to speak about, like Kushwant Singh, the Hindu newspaper. These are people who stood by you.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, they stuck to the truth. I just wanted to say something that is important because the movie called “Nobody Killed Jessica Lal,” they borrowed the title. It’s a good title. Has spread such negative and wrong false information and it has affected us quite badly the world over. The movie became a hit again because it’s a sensation and we are very thinly disguised with George, Malini and I in it and coming out like villains.

And we saw firsthand reactions in those days from lots of people. Strangers on the plane, strangers at a shop, or any of that kind of thing. Now, here’s what happened at some point during the case. Actually, here’s what happened. By now, Manu Sharma has been sentenced by the High Court based on the Ramani’s testimony and largely mine because I had, it just so happened that I was a bigger witness than most.

My book has been released and, no, the book came later. Sorry. The sentence has been given. Life sentence. He’s in jail for which lasted 18 years. Whatever the case, my lawyer saw in one of the newspapers and called me and said, “You know, there’s a movie being made on Jessica Lal. I just saw in today’s paper. I think it might be a good idea for you to call. This might be a good way to bring out the truth. Finally let the world know the real story. Why don’t you call filmmakers?”

And she found me the number of the director whose name had been mentioned in the article. And his name was Raj Kumar Gupta. Mr. Gupta was his last name. So I called him and said, “Very happy to hear that you’re doing this film. And I’m Bina Ramani. The family that was really the spine of the whole story. So we would love to help you. You’ll be able to get all the firsthand true information.” Before I could finish saying that Smita, he had hung up the phone.

SMITA PRAKASH: He said, “Don’t talk to me. I have nothing to do with the script. Yeah, I’ve only been hired as a director. Speak to the producer.”

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, I forgot. Yeah, correct. This is what he said.

SMITA PRAKASH: And then you say, “I felt a familiar shudder again. My intuition told me there was danger lurking.”

BINA RAMANI: That’s true. That is right.

SMITA PRAKASH: That it would be danger lurking.

BINA RAMANI: I mean the whole world was leading our lives. We lost who we were. I mean, the strength and the support from my family and the few close friends. Without that, I don’t know what we would have done. And Malini was affected really badly. If it hadn’t been for some of her friends and particularly Tarun Tehelyani, who was there every day, would even sometimes massage her feet. But she was just, I mean, she was very badly affected. And when she’s taken now to a very good spiritual path, it resulted in some good things.

SMITA PRAKASH: And George too, life altering for her.

BINA RAMANI: Right.

SMITA PRAKASH: She was the belle of the ball. Everywhere that she would be there. And as a mother, how do you feel about that? Like to see that your daughter has never been the same after that.

BINA RAMANI: I thank God for the daughter I have. She sometimes used to tell me, “Mommy,” when she was starting on the yoga path. I mean, “Do you know why I never married and I had to have children? Because I can’t imagine having a daughter like me. I kept you awake when I was young. I was giving you such a hard time.”

And I realized. And he used to say something sometimes. I mean, “I didn’t sleep the whole night. I’m Arnie. Where you don’t come home late. What are you partying? There’s the whole world. It’s on our school kids.” She said, “I know what I put you through and all that, but I am.” She’s on such a good path. No, but she’s…

SMITA PRAKASH: When she would come to the jail, they were heartbroken.

BINA RAMANI: All of them. Yes, they would come meet me and bring me.

Life in Tihar Jail

SMITA PRAKASH: You’ve written about that and it’s kind of, you know, nobody imagined Bina Ramani in jail. You imagine a Bina Ramani in house caste village in Qutub, Colonnade, in…

BINA RAMANI: I’ve done the full rounds.

SMITA PRAKASH: And in New York, in London, in Bombay, with Bollywood celebs.

BINA RAMANI: They did it all.

SMITA PRAKASH: I did it all with all that. But think that you would be in jail without even your asthma medicines. You talk about that.

BINA RAMANI: I have to specially ask for that.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you didn’t even have a blanket. Some jute thing that you write about.

BINA RAMANI: And a nice mate or another. Someone who came and gave me that and a toothbrush and a toothpaste. But I tell you my days in Tihar jail. I’d love to share this with everybody after the seven, eight days in hell’s hole, which is police custody. It’s a terrible, terrible thing. They put it is a cell of the worst kind. And you are treated all day in a police office as if you’re a piece of furniture. You don’t exist.

And then they’d be talking about you. They’d be saying anything, it doesn’t matter. You’re a nothing. And it was. But I managed to just keep my composure. I was in meditation right through with my. I am a follower of Guru Nanak fiercely. Then when it came out to being taken further, they got nothing out of. Yeah, there was. They made a forgery case against me. From British law. There is forgery case has. You are declared guilty without trial.

So they used that from somewhere and they were faking and making me write newspaper columns. Repeat from newspapers. “Right here. Right here.” And where it was going just to show the world that’s on pretext of that eight days in police custody and four days in Tihar jail.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you say that you just found one night when you couldn’t sleep and then you found God.

BINA RAMANI: I prayed to Guru Nanak. I said, “Your very first day, when it got dark, I said, you have brought me here. I know you have brought me here for a mission. And please reveal that mission. I’m ready for it. We’ve been through all of this. There has to be a reason.” So. And I said, “Please, please be with me. Don’t leave my space.” And I tell you that those four days were the most spiritual. I was on such a high.

SMITA PRAKASH: And it rained.

BINA RAMANI: And it rained that morning. Give me a signal. I said that first night. “I want a signal that you are here watching over me.” And it just rained like crazy. And the whole. It was so fresh. And your doll doesn’t shut your bars and that. That cool earth and the sound of the rain. It was like unlimited embraces from Guru Nanak. I felt so good. I feel so emotional right now.

Yeah, it was very special. So I look back and it’s another experience in my life. I mean, I must have deserved it from some past life. That awful police thing, jail. I really don’t want to lose that. I would do it again because it was too precious. I had no appetite. They would bring langar, karke, kasoche, kalu. I couldn’t. I just. I was just fulfilled and total in every way. That’s great.

SMITA PRAKASH: You say that it was done to break your spirit.

BINA RAMANI: Break my spirit? No, to give me a bad reputation for the High Court hearing. “She’s got a bad character. She’s fraud. She’s a fraud. She writes forged documents of whatever it is that they were there.” They could come up with nothing else to stir my name. Yes, but you.

The Court Testimony

SMITA PRAKASH: You identified the killers and then you muttered something which was said that she, she’s confused and she can’t.

BINA RAMANI: I was.

SMITA PRAKASH: I have to say that because he looked different.

BINA RAMANI: He had a beard. Threats had come. There were different people calling voices and hanging up. Yeah, I was. I was terrified. There’s no question. Not just there, not just then. I was living in a state of. It was an everyday thing trying. Trying to make Malini feel better was my number one priority. And I didn’t know how long it would last.

I just not. Not just comatose, literally didn’t want to eat, drink, just be left alone in bed over and over and over, night after night. We all braved up to be there that time. I just felt that I could not hold my. I just felt like I’m the head of the family, he’s a foreigner. My husband couldn’t deal with what was going on and I was like holding back a breakdown, living on that edge constantly for quite a while.

So that day in court. There were other days. I have to say it was like treading on eggshells and thinking you could break and lose track of. Lose hold of your mind. So yes, I recognized him. He looked. He was high. He was. There was a. So the judge had to tell him to step out. There was.

SMITA PRAKASH: There was a man in front of him.

BINA RAMANI: In front of him? Yeah, he was in the back and he stepped aside.

SMITA PRAKASH: He stepped aside. You identified him and you said he looks different.

BINA RAMANI: He looks different but he’s touched him as a. And Ram Jethmalani used it against you.

SMITA PRAKASH: Used it that you are not sure. Then there was Hariman Sundaram who was also there in your defense.

BINA RAMANI: He was a hero.

SMITA PRAKASH: He was in your defense team.

BINA RAMANI: Absolutely.

SMITA PRAKASH: And he defended your. Okay.

BINA RAMANI: He knew both knew the truth. You won’t believe this very first night it happened, I called Rani, Jait Malani and I went to their home. They were having dinner. George and I went and he said, “Don’t worry, come on, we’ll handle it all. Let’s hear the. Tell the whole story. Don’t worry.” It was one day after the media. Maybe it was the next day. Yeah, media had broken. She wiped the bloodstain. Could have happened. I don’t remember how many days it took to.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you told Ram Jethmalani your entire story.

BINA RAMANI: I mean just a little bit. Because he didn’t want to hear it. Just then when he was.

SMITA PRAKASH: He had not yet been appointed as lawyer.

BINA RAMANI: Much later he was with us for quite a bit.

SMITA PRAKASH: And then he switched.

BINA RAMANI: He switched. He switched. His son once told me in Goa in those days he said, “I really want. I really hang my head.” And how he importing him because this is from him.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so now Manu Sharma said Rani.

BINA RAMANI: And I are very embarrassed with our dad’s choice.

Delhi Society and Fair-Weather Friends

SMITA PRAKASH: You knew so many important people, Bina, what happened?

BINA RAMANI: You are too weak. You don’t understand what happens to you. You’ve not been in that position. You feel like you’re being battered. You’re just being battered. There’s not one person around in your world where you’re being so social is saying anything good about you.

SMITA PRAKASH: Why that’s not Delhi.

BINA RAMANI: Society is so fickle. That’s really all very fickle. We learned. My friends today are less than in one hand and they are all gems. I would. My friends now are the angels that have sifted out. They were. They went through the biggest test. This is what. Please see it from that point of view.

SMITA PRAKASH: You had, I mean, the who’s who coming and then who’s who coming up. And they were there in the good times, but in the bad times they dumped. Which is what I guess society is all about.

The Aftermath and Social Circles

BINA RAMANI: You see it very clearly now. On rare occasions do I go out, I don’t go to—I just—I’ll go to a book launch or concert. I love music of classical type, whatever and that kind of thing. I go and I see it is like an antenna alive in my head.

Some of those, they have—it’s visible people. I hate to use the word fake or false, but I mean, that’s what they are. They give you that look and a smile that is fake. And they want to come close to you. They want to know Bina, they want to be endeared. I just give a smile and I very gently move away the other day.

SMITA PRAKASH: And yet they are the same people who would run a mile on seeing you during those trials.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, that happened quite a few times.

SMITA PRAKASH: And those who stood by you were a few people. Would you like to name them? Nafisa Zali was there very much so.

The Hero Soldiers

BINA RAMANI: Bhai Chand Patel got given full marks and they had to wrestle their way to get to my home. I lived in a semi-basement kind of thing. Three steps down and you—and they’re all outside, the media and the cops. You really had to be brave to come.

And then Richard Holker, another—I call them all my hero soldiers. And I’m going to tell you something very interesting. I had Richard Holker as a friend. We did a lot of fundraising for street children’s education. Part of a whole thing that has—I’ve started lots of sort of social activism.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: One of them is Pari and many others. Okay. So anyhow, he lives in Defence Colony. Richard Holker. And next to his wall, the wall house, is another person who I also know, but he doesn’t—they don’t know each other—is Pamela Rooks. Okay. I see them separately sometimes. They may be at a party together, but they never really don’t know each other.

Now during these Jessica Lal thing, bats that were flying out. They’re at a party that Delhi society who decides criminal sentences for whoever they—for the night they wish to do. So that particular evening, like most evenings of the time, every drawing room, the hottest subject was Bina Ramani.

And they, they felt they had control over Bina Ramani, who ruled, who was doing all the new things. And we couldn’t catch up. But now we can bring her down. I mean, that psychologically happens all over the world.

However, that evening, about twenty people were throwing brickbats. I’d been a Ramani again. Oh, the whole Ramani family, whichever. And at some point, there’s one person who’s defending me, a man who happens to be Richard Holker. And at the other end, there’s one other person only who’s also defending me, which is Pamela Rooks. They don’t know each other, okay.

And they are both being slammed. I mean, they’re being abused for being so stupid. Why can’t they see what Bina Ramani really is? And she’s all negative. And this goes on for a while. In the end, they start to talk to each other. Party ends. She gets up to go early. She can’t take it anymore. And he follows her. This is ridiculous. I can’t believe. And we, both of them knew us separately for years.

So they go on, become friends. One drops the other one home and finds out that they are neighbors. And they ended up eventually in a fantastic romance. Okay. And unfortunately, she had a famous director trained to Pakistan.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: But they used to come to go out and stay with us. But that’s an incredible happy story that came out above this sleaze. What can I say? Yeah, that life is like that. You can’t—we can’t try and change anybody. The world is choosing to be what they are. I just hope that our future world becomes a more honest world and with integrity. We don’t have that anymore.

Family Under Pressure

SMITA PRAKASH: What kind of pressure did it put on your marriage, on your relationship with the children, with your daughters and the pressures of your family. Very well-known family, very much.

BINA RAMANI: They could not live through it. They were in agony and they wanted to come. And I was saying, no, please don’t. I tell George to tell them that. And then it just so happened that when you’re such a large number, then you’re closest to the nearest in age. I was closest to Gulu. Gulu Lalwani and Bina Ramani were like even when we were singing Gulu and Bina Lalwani, they do the right party, that sort of thing back then.

So he was desperate to come and I didn’t want to. I just could not bear the thought of when everything’s over, you come. He just decided he’s going to come one day. And that was the day they brought me out of police custody. He was in touch actively with my sister who’s come to visit me today by chance.

So he’s brought to the court and he sees me being brought by the two cops that they, you know, the two female cops as well in court. I arrive, I spot his face there and I guess I can’t believe that he made it. And what time for him to see me. It was the worst moment.

I came from the police station to be released to say, okay, eight days over, we found nothing. Instead they got their way again. KK Paul against me, took me to Tihar for my brother. And then to relate it, he must have just died. We’ve never spoken about it. It’s too painful till this day. But I know how he felt.

And then you—they take you into this big cooling room, whatever, big, huge shed. Till this evening. Time for your bus to take you to Tihar. And there are some bars there where you can look out. Family brings you things. So Malini, my sister George came there? No, George had to be in hiding most of the time. They were also trying to arrest him.

But anyhow, he was there that day. And then Gulu started to cry and I just could not. I had to be strong and let him know that God is doing this to me. Don’t worry, I’m in good hands. We were very kind of strong about our religious beliefs.

The Media Frenzy

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah. And the media. Because that was when twenty-four hour news channels had just started.

BINA RAMANI: True. That’s what. And we had the best news. We were the best news. What can I tell you?

SMITA PRAKASH: And you think it’s because also of that and with the Jessica Lal incident, the whole page three culture died with that. Yes, it was at its zenith. And then it came crashing down when Qutb Colonnade collapsed and Tamrin Court collapsed. It was the end of that page three culture. No more of those parties and things. Because it was a shocker. And I think the entire grouping of those people that also shattered.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, it kind of broke down. It’s true.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: Otherwise life changed in many directions.

SMITA PRAKASH: And it never revived after that.

BINA RAMANI: No, it’s never been the same.

SMITA PRAKASH: It’s never.

BINA RAMANI: That was another era. Yeah, it was a completely different era that those who participated in that. Many of them are in touch and very fine. They were a dignified.

The Page Three Culture

SMITA PRAKASH: But those parties were very hedonistic culture kind of a thing.

BINA RAMANI: So.

SMITA PRAKASH: So when this.

BINA RAMANI: What do you mean by hedonistic? We had music and.

SMITA PRAKASH: Music and dancing. I’m not talking specifically about yours, but when everybody was seeing that, you know, for most Indians that was something which was unattainable. Which is Delhi.

BINA RAMANI: Ice.

SMITA PRAKASH: Don’t say Indiana.

BINA RAMANI: Delhi. Not so in Kantabami at all. No, they were all religious. I was too much throwing wine.

SMITA PRAKASH: Women dressed in attire which, you know, most women cannot go out in those notes during—at my party.

BINA RAMANI: No, not at all. We were a mature lot.

SMITA PRAKASH: We were just a page. Very well dressed. Yes.

BINA RAMANI: I’ve always been very elegantly dignifiedly dressed. And my friends when we did parties was like that. Malini’s age group of parties was the second set that had to move on.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m not being judgmental.

BINA RAMANI: It’s a generation later.

SMITA PRAKASH: It was like this voyeuristic thing looking at those parties for most people, not being—not being part of that. Pretty people.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. Or feeling included in that.

SMITA PRAKASH: So it was something which was aspirational to some and for the others, probably vicious. That. And seeing that happiness to see those people fall.

BINA RAMANI: True.

SMITA PRAKASH: Those who were watching those shows on television, reading about the fall of Bina Ramani, the fall of Malini Ramani. Was that that feeling that, oh, okay. Serves them right.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: Finally. Not the rights and the wrong of it or not the—it was that. That. Okay, since we can’t get it, they are also not going to get it. It was some kind of that. Right.

BINA RAMANI: But you see. Have you noticed now I just thought of it now. We kind of happen to rule because I started that the Qutb Colonnade and the Hauz Khas village, they were the two main centers. There’s been no such thing. And like anything we did, people kind of followed or the kind of people that would come over, guests from different parts of the world, the guests everybody loved meeting or seeing, etc.

There is no such leader quality in society right now. There isn’t. There was at the time.

Hauz Khas Village and Gentrification

SMITA PRAKASH: At that time, lots of people used to say that, you know, the gentrification of that area. It’s a village, after all.

BINA RAMANI: It’s a total village.

SMITA PRAKASH: And all that you got all the perm because you had the contacts. And there was like bending of laws for Bina Ramani. Is that true?

BINA RAMANI: No, there’s no bending of law. I didn’t have to bend any law at all. We would like in the Qutb Colonnade. In fact that was my once upon a time. The first thing I did in India was that after that I got Hauz Khas village. And then later I married George. I didn’t know George at the time. When we married we decided why not? He’s quitting his job in Canada. So we invested together and bought that building.

SMITA PRAKASH: Then you even have in your picture in your book this picture of Raghuveer Singh, the former Chowdhury of Hauz Khas.

BINA RAMANI: It was wonderful. Without him this couldn’t have happened.

SMITA PRAKASH: So suddenly. Just a little Lal Dora land in Delhi becomes this place to go to. And it’s still there, still very much there. And now suddenly on Instagram, you know, after about ten years Bina Ramani is back on Instagram.

BINA RAMANI: I know. I don’t know why it has organically happened. It amazed me just three times in a row. It just popped up. Some force from somewhere seems to have. I’m very happy. Shouldn’t just disappear. It was very special.

And I had—there was Hillary Clinton who came, a senator Larry Pressler who was very important to India at the time.

SMITA PRAKASH: The Pressler amendment guy.

BINA RAMANI: Exactly. And he has written me an immortal lovely letter that the Hauz Khas village visit is the most shining example of how India is growing. I mean he was—he writes there should be more like this all across the country. I mean things, you know, declarations of this kind were just very meaningful. I wasn’t doing was like next step, we got to grow.

Growing Up Around Celebrities

SMITA PRAKASH: The story of your life being around very beautiful and successful people. You’ve always been surrounded by successful people. Reading about it was very interesting because you come from a very, very traditional family. They did not like the idea of you hanging around with celebrities or film stars.

BINA RAMANI: Not at all. But they embrace our Raj Kapoor association. The first time into a public domain known thing. We were. Otherwise the parents would have not wanted it that way. But he just took to my parents as their—his parents and then introduced us. Me particularly. We were very.

SMITA PRAKASH: This was in London.

BINA RAMANI: It was London when. Yeah, back when his film Sangam was being finished. Early sixties, something like that.

SMITA PRAKASH: And then you come to Bombay and then they.

The Kapoor Family Connection

BINA RAMANI: We are there. They won’t let us have it any other way. No home. Chembur was my home and all the kids, we were all brothers and sisters. All the marriages, I mean, everything.

And when Mrs. Raj Kapoor decided in London, before I had been to India, it had been many years. I had not been to India. It was a myth. I longed to, you know. So anyhow, she said, she whispered one day to her husband’s ear as we were coming out. I was driving them from somewhere back home and she whispered something into his ear and he said. So then I got scared and I asked her later, what were you saying to him?

So she said, “I was telling him, we have to get Bina for Shami.” Shami Kapoor, he had just become widowed and he was very close to Babiji and she was everything.

SMITA PRAKASH: His sister Babiji is Mrs. Raj Kapoor.

BINA RAMANI: She was everybody’s Babiji. She was just an angel. Gorgeous, fabulous human being. So I said, how can you say Shami Kapoor? That was the first time I thought of the. I heard. And I thought, are you joking? My parents, will they have the same reaction. Don’t do it, don’t. And he’s. I’ve never seen this movie. He’s not my type.

SMITA PRAKASH: And he’s a father of two children.

BINA RAMANI: He’s father of two children on top of that.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you’re unmarried and he smokes and.

BINA RAMANI: He drinks and all. That’s a no. No.

SMITA PRAKASH: Then what happened?

BINA RAMANI: No, then she didn’t stop at that. She continued and she already talked to him about it. And then maybe it was a few months later that we. And we used to write letters to each other, she and I, lots of letters in which she said, “I’m going to make my dream come true” and things like that.

The Sacred Cottage at RK Studios

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah. You were Raj Kapoor’s rakhi sister and so she’s Babiji and she. You say that in his house there used to be these parties where he would sit on the carpet and he’d have Lata Mangeshkar, Zohra Sehgal.

BINA RAMANI: That used to be. Yes. In his studio. The cottage.

SMITA PRAKASH: In the cottage. So what was this cottage and home business? So there were times he would not go back to the home, he would stay on in the cottage.

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no, no, no. I never knew of that.

SMITA PRAKASH: You said that all of Raji’s attendants would be on call, alert to every whim, provided maximum comfort and hospitality to the chosen guests. When Raji was in the mood, depending on his state of negotiations with his favourite Scotch whisky, we would be treated to rarefied hours of anecdotes. Cottage evenings also meant that Raji might not return home to Devnar that night.

BINA RAMANI: That may be possible. There were times when he didn’t come home. We all left. It was the RK studio. The famous studio where all these films were made was 2 km from their home. Many events would happen there. Celebrations. That’s why would happen there.

But it was a. But from the beginning. When they first brought me there. They took me there Babiji and “this is my sacred space. Only select few people come here.” And then one other sacred place was up in the first floor where his last days with Nargis were there they were every spirit. So I wanted to see that too. Would we kept.

SMITA PRAKASH: He was a temple to a very.

BINA RAMANI: Passionate kind of a man with everything that he had done in his life. So there were various reasons. I don’t know why. This was very sacred for him maybe. And he was a very romantic man. He got deeply involved and he could understand. He had seventh perception, not just sixth. He could foresee. He had vision very often of talking about what was possible in human beings. Men and women that were creative like you talk about.

And I was not from this world at all. But when I met him then I connected that he used to talk a lot about Hrishikesh Mukherjee. That was the name, I think. Was he a great. Was he a tall man?

SMITA PRAKASH: Hrishikesh Mukherjee? Yeah, reasonably. Yes, he was a filmmaker.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, he was a filmmaker. Great films he made. Yes, he had the greatest admiration. And he would talk about him a lot.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. Different kinds of films.

BINA RAMANI: Different kinds of. Different kinds of disciplines also he would talk about and talk about their. Like Zohra Sehgal. There was another lady called Leela. Something he had had. His father had had a romance with Leela. Very beautiful, like Devika Rani type from that era. Maybe little younger.

And the things he would. He said I was young and childhood I saw my father. That kind of. Then he would describe the kind of romance and the depth and how they. And now the husband saw it and supported it because he saw in it a truth of Nhai Ji. Papaji’s wife’s mother would also look the other way. And there were descriptions that you’re watching a movie screen. I hadn’t seen many Hindi movies in my life. The first Hindi one might have been Sangam.

SMITA PRAKASH: Sangam.

BINA RAMANI: You were not allowed to see movies.

The Bollywood Circle

SMITA PRAKASH: And here you were explaining the parties. Or you said that Dilip Kumar’s sister, Farida Khan, she was a good friend, was a friend of yours. And then you say that you met the younger Bollywood crowd then which was Vinod Khanna, Kabir Bedi, Protima Bedi, Persis Khambatta, Simi Garewal and Protima and Simi. Some of these became your friends. You continued with this friendship.

BINA RAMANI: Protima was like a soul sister. I feel I communicate with her. She was something very precious. She came from a very conservative Gupta family. I believe from UP maybe or Rajasthan, I’m not sure. But something about her attracted me and I don’t know what. I had to learn things.

The Romance with Shammi Kapoor

SMITA PRAKASH: And then there were others. You met. You met the entire Kapoor family. Let me go into your romance with Shammi Kapoor a little bit. Was he that forbidden fruit which attracted you to him and him to you?

BINA RAMANI: The truth is that I had already decided that it’s not for me. No, I wasn’t attracted to him like forbidden fruit. Because I immediately was drawn to him. I was not. I was. The phobia of upsetting my family was the number one. You couldn’t do anything to upset the family. From childhood you never questioned.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you didn’t allow yourself to fall in love with him initially.

BINA RAMANI: So the very first time when I had arrived in India and Raji had never spoken to me about him. But I had heard his displeasure of it. And he didn’t even want to bring the subject to me. It was an unacceptable thing.

So it just so happened that every Christmas Eve in Bombay traditionally Raji would take some particular hotel at the dining table and they would celebrate Christmas Eve. And I just landed the day before Christmas Eve to Bombay, straight to the Chembur house. So I arrived at Babiji. We went a little late and they were all seated. And she had warned Shami that “you will see her on this day. I’ll bring her for a while.”

I think Raj Kapoor had told her not to bring me. I think she wasn’t supposed to. Whatever she decides after, let’s do that. Besides, I had a cousin who had lived with me in London a lot. And she had invited me to dinner to her home. So I was to go there. So in any case, I came for a short while.

So I go. I’m walking around. There he is at the end of one head of the table. Raj on the other side of the table. So I first reach Raj and I’m introduced. I don’t know any of them. And then he greets me and he looks. I’m seeing he’s looking straight into my eyes. As if he’s trying to give a message. I don’t know.

So I just looked away. Right away. I just glanced and saw that he’s trying to talk with his eyes. He’s once. He’s trying to say whatever. I don’t know what. He was reading too deeply into me. He had heard a lot. Maybe she had pushed it too much. I don’t know. So. And then when we left, I. She said. I said, “I’m too scared. No, it’s not for me. Please. And don’t promote this.”

SMITA PRAKASH: But he pursues you.

BINA RAMANI: And next meeting arranged was then Chembur in Juhu. Was in theater somewhere there. He was there alone with another friend or two. And my sister, immediately older was my kind of guardian. And I used to call her Spy. But she was my guardian. She knew.

SMITA PRAKASH: But he used to call you Ga.

BINA RAMANI: G. He used to. He tried to say many different languages that he loved you. Any. I couldn’t say it back to him.

SMITA PRAKASH: Why couldn’t you? Didn’t fall in love with him?

BINA RAMANI: I never did. Never. Never once.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you still loved him in a way, yes.

BINA RAMANI: I began to love him very much.

SMITA PRAKASH: Despite getting married to somebody else.

BINA RAMANI: Loved him very much. I still do. There’s a special kind of love.

SMITA PRAKASH: You met him several times after that. After your marriage and then your second marriage, you again met him.

BINA RAMANI: He met George. They got on well and he invited us over and Neela.

SMITA PRAKASH: So this is enduring love. Is your love with enduring love?

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, absolutely.

SMITA PRAKASH: With Shammi Kapoor, right?

BINA RAMANI: Yes. Yes.

The Heartbreak

SMITA PRAKASH: So. And you get married to this person, an arranged marriage. And as soon as he hears that you’ve got married he finds another person. And he gets married the day he thinks that you’re coming to India. And he gets married in the same temple where he had said he would marry you.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, correct. Where he had married Geeta.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, but that’s what. Geeta Bali has passed away. Then he tells you that this is the date I’m going to get married to you.

BINA RAMANI: Second of Jan. I’m already gone San Francisco.

SMITA PRAKASH: And he finds.

BINA RAMANI: And he has. Babaji. Babaji told me that he was with his two best friends. They had gone hunting who were also now by now very close to me. They all used to play beard, as they say sometimes. And you say that he just stretched out on the plane and began to yell and scream and was very eradicated in the newspaper. “Bina Lalwani weds Andy Ramani” and whatever.

SMITA PRAKASH: And he was heartbroken.

BINA RAMANI: Just totally. He just went berserk completely. And in those days of seven days he had said, “it’s a sacred seven days. We never drink. We’re out there hunting tiger or whatever wildlife” and so I don’t know how he. But he was just. He went completely.

SMITA PRAKASH: But when you, you didn’t break up with him because you weren’t involved with him at that stage but you knew he had proposed to you.

BINA RAMANI: He was gone. Yeah, many a time he had talked about and.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you never, you never broke the news to him that you’re getting.

BINA RAMANI: I had no idea. No, I didn’t know. The shocking thing is it is exactly a year Christmas Eve he has left on the jungles. I am introduced to a man called Andy Ramani by my tire. I used to arrange everybody in marriages. He was a well known Sindhi doctor.

So my parents now my sister had got married. Now they wanted to go back to London which means take me. I didn’t taking because I had not approved anybody for marriage and said “all right, what are we doing in Bombay? We don’t have home. Here we go.” So. Or you have said no to all the other proposals. Last one.

I didn’t say yes or anything. I said no, no. I mean it was like a predestined thing. So what happens? And he’s not my height, he’s 10 years older. He’s not somebody I would looked like a match seen together with. But so I’m. So we are made to see each other again. I mean it’s a stupid, I’ve done many stupid things in life.

SMITA PRAKASH: You had Shammi Kapoor. You married somebody who’s.

BINA RAMANI: So what happened?

SMITA PRAKASH: Suitable as compared to Shammi Kapoor.

BINA RAMANI: I just wanted my parents put so much pressure on me and their aunts and uncles, you know, they had put so much pressure.

SMITA PRAKASH: You had no agency of your own to say no.

BINA RAMANI: Never. We could never question. Never could.

SMITA PRAKASH: So there’s this very orthodox Sikh family that you come from where you cannot marry a Shammi Kapoor because one Raji wouldn’t approve. Raj Kapoor wouldn’t approve.

BINA RAMANI: Raj would be the one. And he. Yeah, then there is.

The Shammi Kapoor Years

SMITA PRAKASH: And there’s this one paragraph which I found so fascinating. And all of us have this view image of Shammi Kapoor, right, that he’s this boisterous singing and, you know, this “Yahoo” Shammi Kapoor.

BINA RAMANI: He hated all that.

SMITA PRAKASH: He hated that image.

BINA RAMANI: He hated it. When we would meet in the night at my cousin’s home staircase, and she had her boyfriend up on the roof, he was even afraid to hold my hand. You know, I was fine with holding hands with him. I mean, he was just treating me like some precious, I don’t know what, you cannot touch sort of thing.

But lots of poetic words and building up life ahead. And, you know, he said, “I am doing this because my producers are making money. They are making money and I’m the only one. This role seems to be fitting, so I have to do it for the audiences and I’m signed one after the other. They’re all roles like this. So I romance the heroines.”

SMITA PRAKASH: Thousands of women falling for him and acting opposite these gorgeous looking women. And here he is pouring his heart out to you, asking you to marry him and you dump him.

BINA RAMANI: I went with a broken heart. I didn’t guess what. Second was the day we were to marry, right on the 2nd of Singh. And the 25th, I’m introduced to Andy Ramani. I say no, okay, one more time, meet him alone. But parents, his parents say. And that kind of… it was the weirdest thing, which no other girl…

Yeah, I don’t know what it was. I used to feel punished when I wanted to do things and parents would say no. It was understood that I couldn’t have my way because I was a second generation child. You know, they had grandchildren when I was born. I couldn’t think like the rest of the family.

So I nurtured my dreams quietly. Many rejections I got from things. I wanted to be an architect, be a beautician, whatever. Anything. I’d ask her to say, “Don’t even think about it, marriage, whatever.”

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m going to let people read the book to see the most… I think one of the most unromantic proposals of all times was when he proposed to you. And he proposed to you.

BINA RAMANI: He had a girlfriend in San Francisco. And he had come to attend his younger brother’s wedding. So he tells me, “You’ve come with wealth and grown up with luxury and all. I don’t know any of that. I cannot offer. I’m just an Air India manager, three states of America and a small section, California and whatever, Nevada, et cetera. And I own nothing. It’s a company flat, there’s a car, there’s a TV. I own the TV and the bookshelf books.”

SMITA PRAKASH: And you said yes to that.

BINA RAMANI: I began to feel so sorry. I don’t know what I love.

SMITA PRAKASH: I just find it incredible that somebody would not marry a Shammi Kapoor and marry…

BINA RAMANI: I didn’t dare allow myself to think that it could happen.

The Real Shammi Kapoor

SMITA PRAKASH: You write here, he says, “The flamboyant and boisterous lover boy, because that’s what my audience wants from me. Over and over again,” he sighed in resignation. “I really dislike that person. I’m completely the opposite in real life. But unfortunately nobody gets to see that side of me. I love western classical music. I read books on philosophy and history, I read biographies. Do you think my audience would believe that about me?” Is that why he sought a relationship with you? Because he could be him?

BINA RAMANI: Yes, he could be him. And I would absorb, I would embrace that. Yes, totally.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: But I was thinking, how will I ever get cross past my parents? I can’t even ask such a question. All my simple questions have been rejected. I used to think I’m not destined, but I would… it was dream times when I would hear all these things and on the phone, the long, long chats on the phone.

Other Suitors

SMITA PRAKASH: So before Andy comes in, there’s also David of Faridkot who proposes to you.

BINA RAMANI: There’s Onkar of Apollo Tires.

SMITA PRAKASH: Apollo Tires, right. Now these are all perfect matches.

BINA RAMANI: They were, but then I didn’t like them. No, I didn’t like Andy Ramani either. But him that night of this… it was like feeling sorry for someone. Should I rescue? It was… I mean, I think of it later, what the hell I was thinking.

SMITA PRAKASH: So here’s a film actor. Then there is royalty, somebody from a royal family, Faridkot royal family. And then is an industrialist. And these are all highly successful. See, the reason I’m bringing this out is if anybody thinks that Bina Ramani is a gold digger, she’s not.

BINA RAMANI: Oh no. I tell you the other reason why.

SMITA PRAKASH: Because that is what was said about you in those horrible media trials. You wanted that life and you chased that life.

BINA RAMANI: I reject my… my family is so angry with me most of the time because they are there ready to help me, but they want me to be… I have every… I have a variety of ways of living lap of luxury with fancy cars. I grew up at age 29. At 21 I had a Mercedes car and I would be embarrassed to go around in it because I never wanted… there was too much wealth. I was growing up in London. London was still rising from the Second World War, et cetera.

SMITA PRAKASH: There was also the Binatone, the…

BINA RAMANI: Binatone, all of that. I was in Paris, people would talk about Binatone. I never wanted to be… I am, I am not that.

SMITA PRAKASH: Your name was on a product.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, I like to see the fruit of my hard work. I don’t want to be lavished with other people’s wealth and I just cannot. Yes, when I was in hospital for the four months and I knew that it was going to be very difficult. I didn’t have insurance and it was going to cost a packet. But before I could even think of it, they had already signed directly. My family, you know, spare no cost, et cetera. So I just walked away.

But these kind of things, they’re constantly doing. Because if I were new, then I would try and fight it. I just don’t like taking. They know that. That’s what. And he was the only one. I tell you, Faridkot was telling me about his 67 cars and “You’ll have a different sari for each car to match,” et cetera. And Onkar also kind of wanted to measure his wealth. I couldn’t.

And then Shammi was… I mean, Shammi was… I really, really loved him. And I love him more after seeing that when he did marry, after all, he did go into simplicity. He did quit religion. He found guru, found spiritual path on which he invited me. And I joined them one time. And I met that Guruji.

And I was in my difficult years of marriage. I went through very difficult times. Divorce and all of that took a long time. I was reading Autobiography of a Yogi three, four times and a lot of other spiritual books of which he was aware. So we realized that we both… I mean, I was the one to blame, nothing to do with me. So we did have a chance to talk about it.

I always… when I became stronger, independent. I think one of the reasons why I married Andy, deep down inside I could smell independence. Freedom. I couldn’t… I craved freedom. And he was going to… he was living in San Francisco. He looked like a very independent type. No man talks like that unless he’s a modern thinker or whatever. I don’t know what it was. I felt I will find myself. I’ve been cramped all my life here. I’ll be able to find who I really am.

With Shammi Kapoor, yes, he was larger than life. I loved the idea. I was brought up to be a wife and I knew I would be a wonderful wife, et cetera. But anyhow. But I did, I tell you, from Andy Ramani, I learned who I am. I had to go through a lot of hardships. At $3,000 was a salary. And between the rent and we had no money and we had to live within a budget. And I never complained. It was fine. I found discount places to buy things that would see us through the month and all of that.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you were deeply unhappy in that.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, I was. I had some happy times. I have two lovely daughters. There were some happy times. And we made friends of our generation and others, couples we had.

SMITA PRAKASH: There were ups and downs. Yeah, yeah.

BINA RAMANI: Largely downs.

Adil Enters the Picture

SMITA PRAKASH: And then Adil comes into your life.

BINA RAMANI: Who’s Adil?

SMITA PRAKASH: When you spoke about…

BINA RAMANI: Oh, yeah, yeah. The artist.

SMITA PRAKASH: The artist. Yeah. Who’s Adil?

BINA RAMANI: The reason is not…

SMITA PRAKASH: I love it.

BINA RAMANI: Love it more after the show.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so Adil comes into your life and you have this rollicking affair with Adil. Right. Did it matter a lot at that time? Andy doesn’t know that you’re having an affair with…

BINA RAMANI: No. He was pushing it. He was fed up with me. I wanted to love him. I was trying to fulfill, you know, all the things that Shammi used to say to me. I had not heard from anybody. I was using them on Andy, trying to make him feel beloved.

And I was a slave. Look up recipes and have candlelight, beautiful dinner laid out for two minutes before he’d come out. But he would come, he would avoid coming home. He had broken a girlfriend’s heart who was living there with him.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: And so I suffered, prayed every night, played sad music and I mean, my life. I didn’t know anybody. I’d walk down the street in the daytime.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you’re hunting for that love.

BINA RAMANI: Hunting for that love. I was pouring it to him so much that I… he’s… he… and I look back and I think he must have thought, “She’s such a fake.” He was very realistic with this.

SMITA PRAKASH: Adil comes during marriage.

BINA RAMANI: We have no children. He just, you know, he was so much… reminded me so much of Shammi Kapoor.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you were ready to leave again.

BINA RAMANI: Same thing happened last minute. Last minute it was to happen.

SMITA PRAKASH: And Adil was supposed to meet you in London and then suddenly Andy got you.

BINA RAMANI: London. Yeah. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: It was a trial separation. And you say that he wept on the phone and said, “Give me another chance.” And you go back to your husband.

BINA RAMANI: “I’ll be your Majnu.” Never spoken language like that before. Didn’t speak much Hindi that way. So anything you say and all that. I was thinking, “Oh, no, don’t, don’t.” I was looking at him. You never say these things. I’ve never heard you… I was feeling, wow, he’s gone so low for me. I mean, I’m so happy. But, you know, then I went home and whatever.

Loving Multiple People

SMITA PRAKASH: And you say that you could… love broke the heart. And at the same time, Andy is your husband and there’s this small place in your heart which still is occupied by Shammi.

BINA RAMANI: Yes.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you say, it’s possible.

BINA RAMANI: It’s possible you can be a multifaceted person. I am a total multifaceted person.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s not facet. You’re in love with three people?

BINA RAMANI: Three men. Yes. Can be for different reasons. They’re compartmentalized. Okay. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: So I’ll just read out. You said, “I now believed that it was perfectly possible to love several people simultaneously and keep the relationships neatly apart without hurting anyone, if it was sensibly and sensitively handled.” How did you handle it sensibly and sensitively? By not telling the other.

The Complexity of Marriage and Love

BINA RAMANI: My husband was there, but the ability of my husband’s not being difficult was that he had no interest in me. Especially in the early time of my marriage, before the children were born. I mean, we had one other Indian couple, best friends of his who were watching what a struggle I am having with the marriage. And they knew Adil. And we had done evenings out together.

And he’d be at dinner. And Andy would say, “Do you think he’s in love with you? How come he’s talking like this?” So the guest said, the doctor friend of ours, “But can’t you see? Are you blind? It’s been going on. Good for her. She’d get off my back.”

That was… I used to do a lot for him and put “I love you” little messages in his shoe. And then I’d help him put his tie on. Then I’d stick another little message there. When he opens a tie, I mean, it was really… I was in love with an image which I fitted Andy into two years.

SMITA PRAKASH: You said you were celibate for the first three months.

BINA RAMANI: I was celibate for the first three months. Correct.

SMITA PRAKASH: In your marriage.

BINA RAMANI: So to me, shock, I couldn’t understand it then. But you know, in hindsight, I realized that he was a man of the world, of his own world. He was inside of the travel industry, good at what he was doing. And suddenly he’s lumped with a wife. He’s gone to attend his brother’s wedding and he’s had his joy with his girlfriend for the last two, three years. What does he do with it?

I can see from his point of view he wasn’t a larger or kind of had big, major dreams. He was not that I grew up with that.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. Whatever he had. I’m trying to look at your mind, where you are.

BINA RAMANI: He treated me very narrow. No patience.

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re legally married to one person. Emotionally, you are still connected with Shammy Kapoor. And in physical terms, you are attracted to Adil.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, it’s a security, you know, knowing emotionally, it’s a sense of security. I have to say that there is this incredible feeling that I have. It’s a sense of security is the right word I can think of. And I always was a romantic. Was always, always completely.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you needed three compartments and you’re saying it’s like three desserts.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, you’re right. Did I say that? It is.

SMITA PRAKASH: You’ve written that. You said it’s like loving three different desserts equally or having three best friends.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, it’s three different flavors. Absolutely. You know, it’s not vanilla, strawberry and chocolate. It’s three flavors of chocolate. Because I only like chocolate.

Views on Monogamy and Love

SMITA PRAKASH: So monogamy is not something that you believe in?

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no. I believe in monogamy. Physically? Yes, physically we have the power of the mind and the soul.

SMITA PRAKASH: But even physically, because you explained that these are man-made dogmas of staying in just one relation. You talk about how Krishna and…

BINA RAMANI: I have always questioned that. I’ve been fascinated with that and I still am learning. In fact, I’m learning that a lot currently. I’ve never given up that the Radha that I… Jai Radha re Radha. And she’s actually the mistress. I mean we say Radhakrishna. I’m not familiar with…

SMITA PRAKASH: Firstly, historically it seems there is no Radha but mythological.

BINA RAMANI: Why is it that every Hindu worshipper venerates Radha equally as much? Nobody knows his wife’s names. Why is it? Because there’s so many types of love, fragrance of love, for lack of the right word that you can… You have so many different fragrances that can awaken you and empower you.

It’s like that different people, you have so many friends. Different friends. And you love them for different reasons. You have that capacity in you, you know.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you think it’s Raj Kapoor who instilled this definition of love in…

BINA RAMANI: Maybe my own. Not that he gave it, but it’s awakening and also absorb that. I wish now in my life now, I mean since it’s about 15, 20 years I’ve been feeling questioning it. But I’m learning more each time. I wish he and I could sit across and this would be an amazing subject. I wish Shammy would do. He’s extremely intelligent in many ways. I mean he’s intellectual out of the three.

SMITA PRAKASH: And because Raj Kapoor is known to have loved and never left many.

BINA RAMANI: Exactly right. And that’s completely romantic. More so than most actors in fact. He was a real romantic. But he got passionate about some of the relationships that brought a lot of pain around, particularly the Vijayanthimala episode and so on. But he gets carried away as we got. I mean, but I’m telling you that human beings have that capacity, the same depth, but of different kind for different reasons. I know them but as much as I did.

Career and Creative Life

SMITA PRAKASH: And then you get into this creative aspect of your life. You start getting jobs, you start, you know, meeting interesting people in New York, developing new ideas.

BINA RAMANI: I cannot stop doing new ideas within depth.

SMITA PRAKASH: So at that stage you get strength and you get out of that, what should I say, some morally ambiguous life where definitions… How do you mean by that in the sense that you’re now decided, okay, I love this man, but I’m married to this man and it’s fine by me and I’m going to carry on with my life. Yeah, well, because you didn’t really have a career till then. You started off then, right?

BINA RAMANI: I had a great career, yeah. At the Taj group.

SMITA PRAKASH: With the Taj group.

BINA RAMANI: I had my children after.

SMITA PRAKASH: I had my children, but that’s later.

BINA RAMANI: That didn’t stop. By then all the three compartments, all three. Because by then I’d experienced three different kinds of…

SMITA PRAKASH: It’s enhanced your personality.

BINA RAMANI: You feel a lot. I tell you, I sometimes recently when I was in the Hauz Khas village maybe six months ago, I took a picture as well. An urchin woman with light eyes was carrying a baby who may have been nine months old. That baby’s eyes are huge, babe. And there’s a chaiiwala there. So I was about to have chai.

So I got chai for her because I wanted her to linger with me because I fell in love with something about her. I was meeting her at the entry of Hauz Khas village just when I was departing from that state. And that child’s eyes were focused on me. I knew he was some connection to my soul.

So I took the baby in my driver’s driveway. Sydney, I took, carried the baby, continued looking in my eyes and I still again, I’m in love with him. That memory, there was so much love that she almost couldn’t. And I almost had tears because something connected me inside her. She could have been any sex, anything. It is a force. It is a force from within.

SMITA PRAKASH: Who did you feel that connect with in all the men as well as every other, that kind of love where it just like completely obliterates yourself and you’re one with that person. There’s so many people who’ve come and gone in your life.

BINA RAMANI: Believe it or not. Believe it or not. Since I only saw Shammy before marriage, it didn’t seem after marriage except at family weddings and all that. And then Shashi Kapoor would be our little beard. He would suddenly arrive with a glass of champagne and he’d say, “Look under that tree over there. He sent. He’s toasting to you.” That’s all.

But today, Shammy was the first one that I felt with. I have to tell you the truth, when I think of those days. I loved him dearly, but with fear. I never could completely at the time and longed to, but I was held back hugely. There was always fear. The Raj Kapoor fear had added. But I had my parents’ fear already before.

Now with then Andy, I was in love with the picture. And he knocked me out. He said, “This is rubbish.” Intellectual man would do that. But years as went on, I really experienced some very loving times with him. There is no question about it. I did see that he was falling in love with me. It was. And I felt the flowering of a relationship.

Designing for Bobby

SMITA PRAKASH: Coming back to Raj Kapoor. You designed the costumes or you bought the costumes for Bobby?

BINA RAMANI: I bought them for Bobby.

SMITA PRAKASH: Bobby, yeah.

BINA RAMANI: In those days we were poor. Andy Ramani had a job with Air India. We had in New York. We had moved. I had two little children. Raj Kapoor was broke. Mera Naam Joker had flopped badly. And now his father was sick with cancer at the Sloan Kettering. And Sloan Kettering is right midtown, downtown.

We were in the poorest side of town, which was 96th Street on the west side. And for Andy to get to office, he would have to take two buses. It was also midtown and Raj Kapoor took buses. So Raj Kapoor said, “You, Andy has to go in the morning, we’ll go later. You take me.” So I said, “We can take a cab.” He said, “I don’t know how long father will be here.” But he really exercised.

SMITA PRAKASH: He ran out of money by then?

BINA RAMANI: Yes, he had run out of money. So some money that the Hindu Jaz had from Sangam that they owed him because he given Sangam rights worldwide to them and they didn’t pay him completely. And that let him down very badly.

At this particular time, anyhow, was there a good six weeks or so. And so my dining space, my two bedrooms, one for the two children and one for Andy and me, a little dining area, but no walls, just open space smaller than this.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you used to cook for him?

BINA RAMANI: I cooked for him, yes. Absolutely. And then sometimes he was there. There were one or two Indian dhabas as well. So on the bus, by the way. But here he was, sleep on the mattress. He wanted, he always slept on low on the floor. So his for those six weeks he was there. My children, toddlers, would climb over him. And in the evening time. And he loved being with the children.

Anyhow, that aside, on the bus. We would take the crosstown bus and then wait for the next bus. So they had to go downtown.

The Jesus Christ Conversation

SMITA PRAKASH: You were uptown and west incident where you heard him. You heard him in a conversation with Jesus Christ.

BINA RAMANI: Yes.

SMITA PRAKASH: What is that?

BINA RAMANI: So now he’d be…

SMITA PRAKASH: He’s a Hindu, right?

BINA RAMANI: He’s a Hindu.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yes, he was.

BINA RAMANI: You see, he believed in all religions. He also could talk about Islam. He was a man of, I’m telling you, incredible multiple facets. So he would be… My husband used to keep him company. And now, you know, that sort of thing. He had Sai Baba’s picture.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yes, Shirdi Sai Baba.

BINA RAMANI: Yes, Shirdi Sai Baba. There they had taken Nietzsche. Shirdi Sai Baba one time, Babaji, to make a wish. And he also had a little Ganeshji, small one. But he had brought a proper photograph of Jesus in a frame.

And so he would sleep late at night and all. I had to get up from the children in the morning. Anyhow, this night he was yelling and all that. So I came out to see what was he doing. And he was in distress most of the time. Bad news from the hospital he used to get. And he was getting fed up with that. To add it up.

SMITA PRAKASH: His father, Prithviraj Kapoor, who was in hospital.

BINA RAMANI: And he was not getting well in a hurry. So he leaned on the wall on the side and looked. And then he got Jesus’ picture in hand. And he’s abusing him in Hindi words of English. Makes completely abusing him.

So then I asked him. I’ve learned a lot. I’ve imbibed a lot of that. So I always say, there’s only Guru Nanak. Guru Nanak has come from all the other disciplines. The recent one it is. Anyhow. So he said, “You know, I love him. I loved him. I’ve given my full love to him and he has returned his love to me. How dare he let me down.”

And he was using abuse words. He said, “If you don’t talk to your God, no one should listen to you.” So I…

SMITA PRAKASH: And then he made Bobby and he got success.

BINA RAMANI: And here he was already singing a particular song of Bobby. And when he was in a good mood. He’s a “Jhoot Bole Kauwa Kaate.” We have pictures around a pillar and he’s singing it. And we had learned to sing it. We didn’t know the scene. So anyhow, yeah, there was this cheap store called Alexander’s Children’s clothes.

SMITA PRAKASH: Where you used to shop?

BINA RAMANI: Where I used to shop for my children. So I thought let me check this out. And really for about $500 we got the entire Chintu’s as well as Dimple’s clothes. And they all think tie knot.

SMITA PRAKASH: She does become such a blouse which was knotted blouse of Dimple Kapadia. You bought that?

BINA RAMANI: Yes. And the shorts, that polka dotted shirt, the shirt that Chintu’s wearing on that bus and singing that lovely song. A lot of others. A lot of others.

SMITA PRAKASH: Those broad collared. Yeah, that’s how it was the 70s fashion.

BINA RAMANI: True.

Meeting Jackie Onassis

SMITA PRAKASH: So fashion was very important aspect. Has played an important aspect in your life. You worked in stores. And tell me about all the people that you met when you were working there. Jackie Onassis walks in into the store.

BINA RAMANI: I helped her.

SMITA PRAKASH: And Yoko Ono walks into the store.

BINA RAMANI: She became such a good friend.

SMITA PRAKASH: So tell me about these two incidents.

BINA RAMANI: I didn’t stay in touch, Jackie. I was working for what was the most beautiful Indian shop in America called Sona the Golden One. Under the handicrafts board under Pupul Jayakar. And she had the most perfect manager lady called Mani Man, who became my mentor, you know.

SMITA PRAKASH: And Pupul Jayakar had a store in…

BINA RAMANI: Jayakar was the head of the handicrafts.

SMITA PRAKASH: Indira Gandhi’s…

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. But before associate and all that, that came later, 80s. They did all the festivals. But this is 60s handicrafts emporium. Under that she came up with a brilliant idea to open a classy store on Fifth Avenue. Just off Fifth Avenue, a very good address called Sona the Golden One. And she needed a fiery, you know, manager like herself which was Mani Man. Whoever never met her has missed something very special. Because I learned so much from her.

And then I found out she’s the same birthday as me, a lot older. I just wanted to just embrace everything that she meant, represented. So a girlfriend of mine was working there. She had very attractive Indian girls. I was now, we were just newly transferred from San Francisco to New York. I still had no children. I was still in wonderment of the world. And I would love going to this little India part.

So she liked me. And sometimes you say no, now you’re busy, now you’ve got to go do whatever you’re doing and go back home. I had nothing to do. So then Christmas, Diwali was coming close. She said, “Look Meena, I think you’re right fit. And I see you’ve never worked like this before, but will you join us? I’ll keep you here for three weeks of Diwali. If I like you, I’ll keep you longer.”

So I said, “Sure, I’ll give you very little.” I said, “Don’t give me salary. I just want to be.” So she’s, whatever, gave me a little salary. And I learnt and I, it was very easy to learn. It was up my alley. But it was not just clothes, it was jewelry, it was handicrafts, fabrics by the yard and all stuff that’s beautiful from India. Rugs, daris, things I hadn’t seen before. So such good quality, so very cool.

People came. One time, there was a very elegantly dressed man who looked like the actor Cary Grant. And then suddenly she’s there. She’s looking after him, whatever he’s looking at. And then she probably turns to someone and the man just suddenly runs. And I see Mani running after him. “Catch him, catch him.” That very elegant Cary Grant, you know. So she was so sharp. You can’t help but love a woman like that. She went to chase him because he had stolen something.

SMITA PRAKASH: Oh, he’s a shoplifter. Oh, wow.

BINA RAMANI: In the guise of a gentleman. Funny thing like that. Now, Jackie, it was the day before the world hears next day about her getting engaged to Onassis. None of us know Aristotle Onassis. So that evening, from about 4 o’clock to 6 or so, we were closing the shop. She walks in.

Apparently she had come there once or twice before I was there. So they knew her. Her hairdresser, Kenneth, used to be right across the road. So whenever she had to go to hairdresser, they used to hope that she’d come to Sona. Yeah, Mani was very smart at these things.

So she was getting yards and yards of fabric buying. She was buying silk fabrics, but yards of this and yards of another roll. And Mani was thrilled. It’s going to be big sales. Then suddenly she eyes a sari on a mannequin and she said, “Now, isn’t that lovely?” She was imagining all the wealth and all the money she can spend and decorate her home or whatever. She probably figured it’d be nice to have me in the same mood as well, so.

And her voice is like a whisper, like a bird whispering, very classy. And then she looks in a shy way and speaks. I mean, I can’t forget the next…

SMITA PRAKASH: Thing you get to know that she married Aristotle Onassis.

BINA RAMANI: And the next day. So she says, “Can you, I’d love to tie a sari. Can you help me?” So she was wearing a dress. I said, “If you had a skirt, we could do it.” But then we tie a thing around the waist and we put a saree on her. She loves it and she buys it.

SMITA PRAKASH: So she bought a sari.

BINA RAMANI: She bought the sari, yes. So we told her, Mani took charge of that and said how she would arrange it, measurements and things, whatever. I don’t know what. I just did the bit of…

SMITA PRAKASH: Oh, it’s the age of no selfies. Otherwise you would have a picture.

BINA RAMANI: Oh, it’s true, none of this existed.

SMITA PRAKASH: And she was still Jackie Kennedy then.

BINA RAMANI: She was still Jackie Kennedy. And then came the hot news the next day. And we thought, man, she could have bought the whole shop. She really did.

Yoko Ono and a Promise Unfulfilled

SMITA PRAKASH: And Yoko.

BINA RAMANI: Yoko was more recent. This was the time when our place was running with Malini doing these things. That was a gallery I was running at the time, in 1998. And in 1999 this thing happened in 99. So I had a gallery with a girlfriend where I had textiles or textiles. Some of my anti clothes and shawls. And they’d been doing very. Shawls had become now a new thing. People were learning to wear a shawl. It wasn’t a culture in the west much.

So her son, the son by John Lennon, young boy called Sean walked in. So my partner recognized him. He was just a punk, a young boy with acid blonde hair, maybe in his early 20s. So she suddenly, she said, “I think he’s John Lennon’s son.” So then she spoke to him, “Aren’t you Sean Lennon?” And he said yes. So he said, “How can I help you?” He said, “I’m looking to buy a shawl for my mother and she would love so many here. What do I do?”

So she convinced him to buy the one and took our number. And “Can I take some home to show my mother?” Now we knew mother’s Yoko Ono. And then we were thinking we hadn’t said yes or no. Then he said, “You know what, buy this, let us see the quality. And I know that.” Then I get a call two days later from Yoko. “Bina Ramani?” Yes. So she said, “I love…” She also had a very soft, sweet spoken accent.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you connected with her. And there’s this one incident where you’re with her and that in her kitchen.

BINA RAMANI: In her kitchen, in that beautiful kitchen.

SMITA PRAKASH: The day that, I mean, it was…

BINA RAMANI: The anniversary of John, his being shot, 9th December. 9th of December. 9th of October was his birthday. And she walked me around me, she just didn’t want to let me go. But one promise she took from me that when she went during the Beatle Mania to India. And of all the places they went to, they loved Rishikesh.

But when they went to Benares, something, something really got to her. She loved the energy and she had to go along the group, as ever their plans were. So she couldn’t, she knew she was missing something to touch her soul that was unfulfilled that she found there. So she wanted me to take her because she didn’t fulfill it the last time. She said, “Would you take me on a trip?” I said, “I’d love to.”

And I had made a jacket out of a shawl which I used to wear. She said, “Can I buy that off you? I’ll give you anything you want from my closet.” And so sweet.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, but I didn’t do that.

Pamela Bordes and New York Society

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m going through your entire friends list. It’s like a who’s who that you knew so many people. So I want to talk about this person called Pamela Bordes. Now the younger generation would not know who Pamela Bordes is. And I seriously suggest you Google it because her life story is fascinating. So you knew her and…

BINA RAMANI: This was…

SMITA PRAKASH: In the 1980s we are talking about and people say that you introduced her to society in London. Pamela Singh, New York, New York.

BINA RAMANI: It was. I was in New York.

SMITA PRAKASH: Wasn’t it in London?

BINA RAMANI: No, New York, New York.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: You’re not going to believe who called me to. You know, I had been very, I was running a Taj group hotels from New York for public relations and sales and marketing. So the Taj also had managing management contracts with the Lake Palace, Rambagh Palace. So when any of them came to New York, I was like the go-to person in charge of everything.

So I got very, the one who came the most often was Rajmata Gayatri Devi. She was very popular in New York.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: And Americans related through her to India. They took them. India was a begging bowl of the world in those days. But Maharani Gayatri Devi just lifted their heights of expectation of how one should live through this one individual.

Maharani Gayatri Devi

SMITA PRAKASH: Literally, you know, we’ve only seen photographs of her. What was she like in real life? Was she as gorgeous as her photographs? Like, did she have that aura?

BINA RAMANI: Nourish? She had an aura that you got in the pictures. She had a tall personality in a very quiet way, but a very tall, imposing personality in a soft way. And you could see it in the face. You couldn’t talk to her in a hurry.

When I was new, later on she’d hang out at my home and write letters, you know, my postcards. She’d want to pay for stamps. And I do it through office, have pots of tea and things. But initially she gave you a studied look and she assessed you how much. How much is she going to dialogue? Time for you to spare. Are you worth knowing?

SMITA PRAKASH: Was there a rivalry between her and Indira Gandhi people talk about?

BINA RAMANI: Yes, I believe so. Even though I had a special relationship with Indira Gandhi, I never got into that part. I don’t know how it was, but…

SMITA PRAKASH: There must have been, right? There were two very…

BINA RAMANI: If she put her in jail, for sure. She was quite vain and haughty. We both were. I would say this one had confidence that Rajmata, she was the diva and she knew how to play it. And there were many incidents. I can’t talk about that.

SMITA PRAKASH: We played because chiffon sarees and her…

BINA RAMANI: Pearls and only one pearl, nothing.

SMITA PRAKASH: She’d have one pearl chain. Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: She got mugged along with some rich ladies there on the street at night. And he took their furs, the two bandits, the Jews. Bag and money in the bag and all. There were two ladies where she was staying with and they’ve come home after opera and whatnot. She’s wearing a chiffon saree and this and a shawl.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s all.

BINA RAMANI: That’s it. So then they’ve taken looter. She said, “I have, I have this. This is belong. This is from my husband. You touch it, you also shoot yourself. I’m not parting with it. You can kill me.” And she did not come out of the car. They told her to come out. She did. And she said, “This is all I have.”

SMITA PRAKASH: And they let it go.

BINA RAMANI: They let it go. That’s a good news.

SMITA PRAKASH: She introduced you to Pamela Bordes.

BINA RAMANI: She calls me one day from Jaipur and says, she introduced me to two separate women in my time there in the 80s, both. One was, so she had this girl, she rides her horses and she sometimes trains. And she’s a young girl. She’s become Miss India now. And she had found her way to me. She didn’t deserve to be Miss India, in my opinion. She was.

Meeting Pamela Singh (Miss India)

SMITA PRAKASH: She was young Pamela Singh at that time.

BINA RAMANI: Pamela Singh at the time, I think it was, yes. And Dusky did not wear makeup. She had a certain natural look. And she was not that tall, maybe five foot four, five foot five, didn’t deserve to be Miss India. But there she was. She was. She came as Miss India and she said, “She’s a bit wayward, she needs… I know her family, please take care of her. I’ve asked. I’ve given her your number. She’d call you. The Miss World is somewhere. South Africa, Peru or wherever. So have some water. Teach her the way. Teach her the ways of…”

She calls me.

SMITA PRAKASH: Teach her the ways of the world.

BINA RAMANI: Teach her the ways of the world. I learned a lot through the Taj Group, you know, the maze of the world of how to use your property and cutlery.

SMITA PRAKASH: And be the perfect host and say…

BINA RAMANI: The right things and, you know, when you enter a room, all of those things sort of thing. So I took to her, took her to two or three. There was always something happening. I was now single and I had a great place. I was doing well, and I can’t remember much. I didn’t pay much attention to her, to tell the truth. And she went off. And she was a bit smart, chalu. I mean, she could find a way and chat with people and make friends. She didn’t seem to need…

SMITA PRAKASH: So when she moved into that MI6 crowd and she started doing, you know…

BINA RAMANI: It was the MI6 crowd. I lost touch with her for a while.

SMITA PRAKASH: She got into the intelligence community and she got into all kinds of unsavory activity. She was like the Mata Hari of Zoro.

BINA RAMANI: But that was not in America. I was…

SMITA PRAKASH: No, no, not in America. That was in the…

BINA RAMANI: Not that baby.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah. So she moved there and she does…

BINA RAMANI: She got into another world. I had no connect with her.

Asha Bhatnagar and the Dialysis Machines

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. And another person who… So you said Maharani Gayatri Devi introduced you to two women.

BINA RAMANI: One was… The other one she called, who’s still one of my closest friends. She called again. It was in the 80s. She said, “I am introducing you to Asha Bhatnagar. She’s married to a major here in Jaipur and he’s got a kidney failure and he’s on dialysis. And we have kind of arranged for him to go abroad. And Asha Putli… Asha Bhatnagar… Asha Putli was another… I was wondering who story. She’s worth an interview with you. She’s quite a number.”

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so let’s do Asha Bhatnagar and then go to Asha Putli.

BINA RAMANI: Beautiful girl, South Indian girl, married to Bhatnagar Rajput, and he’s in a wheelchair almost. And they would be in their maybe late 30s, 40s, 40s or so. And they were broke. The government wasn’t helping them all that much. And she said, Rajmata says that, you know, we have to raise money for… I’ve just known fundraising from childhood, since we were single. My parents taught us, that’s important social work.

So long story short, from university or hospital, hospital in New Jersey, I managed to get them two or three dialysis machines free. And now we needed to arrange passage to India. There was no money. And Rajmata told her, “Bina, I will do it, just leave it to her.” I’d never done such thing before. And I said to Asha, “This is done. I can’t believe she’s saying this. Now what do I do?” But anyhow, there’s always a way. Few calls and moved on. And then before we knew it, we had, I think, four dialysis machines brought to India.

SMITA PRAKASH: Oh, people now would not know what it meant in those days. No, you know, I mean, not at all.

BINA RAMANI: My God, it was impossible.

SMITA PRAKASH: Impossible.

BINA RAMANI: An impossibility.

SMITA PRAKASH: There was just like what, four, I think four machines or something like that in India then. Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: Asha then being… she was a great social worker and so active and I admire, I learned a lot from her. There’s so much to learn from everybody.

The Train Journey and Meeting Asha Putli

SMITA PRAKASH: And then… Tell me about Asha Putli.

BINA RAMANI: Now I’ll give you an idea of how I was brought up and what Asha… Here’s a story. I was visiting India. It was my first trip in those where I’m introduced to Shami Kapoor and all. And there had been this new train that had apparently come out, Delhi to Bombay, deluxe train, air condition or whatnot, apparently. So I decided why not do that to Bombay in the planes. There was only one plane and you whatever couldn’t get.

So my brother was visiting from London. He’s the pharmacist, but a lot older than me, 10, 12 years. And I, from Delhi to Bombay we’re going for whatever reason, I can’t remember. And what does one do for 24 hours? You walk back and forth and you’re looking at whatever interesting, none and no interesting. But there’s this two-seater where it’s under a blanket all the way through in the night. Yes. But then even in the days, I’m wondering what’s going on, who could it be?

Several walks here and there and it’s always like that. So it’s maybe about 12 seats away from where we are. Go back and sit and read or something. And then suddenly we are now maybe an hour away from Bombay or two. And this girl comes up to me and guess what she says? “I’ve been walking up and down the train and looking for interesting faces and yours is the only interesting face I have.”

So I asked her, “I did that several times. Where were you sitting? I didn’t see you.” So she said, “No, no. We were under the blanket.” So my brother had… He had also taken a walk.

SMITA PRAKASH: She was already a celebrity.

BINA RAMANI: I mean she was no, no. Unknown. She was… No, nothing unknown. She was singing. She was an aspiring singer. Nothing. She was planning to be… Hoping to become a stewardess to go abroad. She hadn’t even achieved that yet. Okay. She was living in Bandra. Came from a good family. Her father was a Saraswat Brahmin from Saudi Brahmin and all that. Very fine man.

SMITA PRAKASH: Her aunt was Kamala Devi Chattopadhyay.

BINA RAMANI: Correct. Correct. All true. So she… She was classy with very boldly fine English. She spoke and said, you know… So I introduced her to my brother. And she tells him, that’s how she is. Saying it all to the wrong man. The wrong things. “Your sister is the most interesting person I’ve seen. I’d love to become a friend.”

Already he was thinking, this fast forward girl sitting under the blanket for 24 hours. And he’s got to keep her away from me. Now he has a mission. He’s thinking. Because that’s how it used to be. I was that kind of sister. Irrepressible. And I gave them all a hard time. I don’t want them to be angry with me. Long gone.

So she left me… Left me her number. “We are doing a jazz thing in my day. After tomorrow. You must come.” And she left. But we chatted quite a bit. But I was ending it. I knew that I’d have to catch up with her later. I liked her. I decided I never met a girl like her.

So then we had Bombay. And airlines. Kept his antenna as well. See what plans are etc. And it stopped. One way or the other. I don’t get to go. I lose her. Okay.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you meet up later then?

BINA RAMANI: No. Then I forgot. I lost then. It was just a month or two before my marriage happened. Who knew how. Suddenly the stroke of whatever. Five days and it’s over. So I go now in San Francisco, where I’m living. Lonely, miserable, awful. He’s at work every day. I’m celibate. I don’t know where I’ve landed. But I’m hoping. I’ve been brought up that way. I’m going to break this barrier. I will win. I’m trying not to cry. But I try and go wandering streets and a museum.

SMITA PRAKASH: I find it so difficult to accept or to believe it. Because I’ve seen your pictures. You’re so gorgeous looking. You’re so beautiful. You have a suitor in Shami Kapoor. You’re with Raj Kapoor and all. And it never occurs to you that you’re beautiful and you could make a career out of…

BINA RAMANI: Attractive. I knew I was beautiful. I was forced to go into this whatever. I think, I mean, whatever. I don’t like to talk about that. Whatever. But it wasn’t necessarily an encouraging thing at home. I made makeup and things like that.

SMITA PRAKASH: So I’m sorry to interrupt you with your flow of thought.

Asha Putli Finds Me in San Francisco

BINA RAMANI: So here, so suddenly one day I get a call from Asha Putli. It has now been maybe six months, huh? Yeah. I found a little ground. I found my feet on the ground. And she says, “You remember Asha Putli. We met on the train and all that.” And I say, “Yes. How did you find me?” She said, “I’m here. I got the job with BOAC, British…”

SMITA PRAKASH: Airways, British parent company.

BINA RAMANI: And it brought me to New York. But I just took some time off. I had to find you. Unbelievable that in that fear, what I was giving out, I made an impression on her that she decided she’s going to find me. And I said, “But I’m Bina Lalwani. You don’t even know that I’m…” “I asked around and somehow with great difficulty, I had to find you.”

So now I’m so used to being reprimanded by elders, I’m thinking now how will I introduce her to Andy? I’m already beginning. Before I see her, she’s going to shock him and he’s going to be, you know, objecting that I have friends like this. Who knows? She’s wild always, you know.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

BINA RAMANI: Less wild than Pratima Bedi. They had the same streak.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: One had the intellectual thing. Pratima was very smart. She was a goddess. When she died, she was a goddess.

SMITA PRAKASH: And she found her intellectual capacity and found it within her because she did Odissi dance and she did…

BINA RAMANI: She founded Indian Classical Dance. Absolutely. So here was… People were touching her feet in the last years. She’s amazing.

SMITA PRAKASH: And she set up Nrityagram.

BINA RAMANI: Nrityagram has a spirit. Without her spirit, they worship. I mean, each and every dancer, their new year old is aware that this cannot be possible with her energy.

SMITA PRAKASH: And she visits and she passes away in a landslide in Manali.

BINA RAMANI: And guess what?

SMITA PRAKASH: She knew she would.

BINA RAMANI: She came in a little Maruti with the first tent that she had pitched in Nrityagram, the land. And she brought it and left it with George and me and said, “If I come back, we’ll do my 50th birthday. And we do it in Benares. Save this tent.” It was with us a long time. Then we never saw her again after. That was our last goodbye.

That’s how special she’s in my life still. I feel visited as well, but it’s a separate matter.

Asha Putli’s Bold Introduction

BINA RAMANI: So anyway, so Asha then comes and she’s hugging me and kissing me, etc. “I’m so happy to meet you. You have no idea that I just feel…” And Andy’s looking at me and wondering. Then she says to Andy, and I’ve never heard this word before that she uses. Listen to this. She says to Andy, “Andy, please don’t worry, I’m not a lesbian.”

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: “I just love your wife. She’s so nice. You might… You got such a lovely wife. I only met her once on the train.” And it’s a world of another kind of a world is opening up. I’ve never heard anyone talk like this, etc. But then we go, he’s at work. Next day she stays with us and she’s working on the street and she’s singing.

SMITA PRAKASH: You know, and it’s magical.

BINA RAMANI: It’s magical. And Haight-Ashbury has just happened, which is the hippie movement has just started in San Francisco. And there she’s singing and she has heard about it. She’s of that. She’s of that world, you know. So she took me there and I see this. That was really my awakening, just one of my awakenings.

Indira Gandhi Connection

SMITA PRAKASH: There are many things in common in the sense that she interviewed Indira Gandhi. You interviewed Indira Gandhi too?

BINA RAMANI: Yes.

SMITA PRAKASH: Tell me about your interaction with Indira Gandhi, your meeting. The jewellery story. Tell me about that.

BINA RAMANI: So I used to make jewelry a lot more before I got into fashion. And I strung. And all the turbulent days that I went through with a. I just took to beads. I met somebody who started to make beads and says, very good for your. Which I did. And the custody battles were very difficult for me.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you’re talking about the 1970s?

BINA RAMANI: No, early 80s.

SMITA PRAKASH: Early 80s. Okay.

Meeting Indira Gandhi at the Festival of India

BINA RAMANI: The festivals of India were just happening. Okay. And the first one was in London. And in London, Rajiv. Yeah, it was Rajiv Sethi. It was Martin Singh, you know, kings of culture at the time. And curated it all. Yes. So it was at the Royal Festival Hall where Zubin Mehta and Ravi Shankar were doing concert together. Zubin was a very good friend of mine at the time.

And there was Princess Diana, Maggie Thatcher and Indira Gandhi with the three special guests. So my family. So they. They had all the wealthy Indian important families to sponsor this. So my family had sponsored one part of it which gave me entry. So my brother and I are there maybe with two of my brothers there. Anyhow, whatever the case, so those who had donated that amount get to meet privately in the rear.

And at that time, that was the day when Princess Diana had to leave because she was very pregnant and she got the call. So now it’s either Maggie Thatcher or Indira Gandhi. So I went for the Indira Gandhi. Now I’m wearing a particular sari to match the necklace which I had recently made, which was a bunch of about maybe 30 garnets loose at the bottom, attached to a big pendant of two peacocks with a hole in it.

The two peacocks are held together and then I would wrap this big thing, I had a long neck and then I would bring out that cascading thing here. So it was very dramatic. And so as I approach closer, we are in a line and pleasure to meet her and so on. And her eyes are on my neck. She’s saying, are you part of the festival? So the festival, through under Pupul Jayakar, had tied up with a whole bunch of stores there with other designers of India. They didn’t know me, so.

SMITA PRAKASH: So she looks at your jewelry and.

BINA RAMANI: Jewelry and she said, what’s your name? I said, Beena Ramani. Oh, she’s Beena Lalwani. Why? She. They had studied those 20 families or whatever. So Ms. Lalwani, she had R.K. Dhawan, I think, standing next to her. So she said, what do you do? I said, I designed jewelry. Did you do this? And I said, yes, that’s very beautiful. I’ve never seen any garnets ever look like this. And why aren’t you here? I said I wasn’t invited to be.

So do you have jewelry with you? And I’m saying, can you believe me? This is the subject. So then I’m saying, I do, but I’m leaving for New York tomorrow morning because I have samples, I sell them there. So she says to can you, can you whatever? She asks him, can we fit her into an appointment? What time are you leaving all of this? I was to go to the airport at 1 o’clock.

She manages to swim and get me to change plans and she invites me to the Claridge’s Hotel. And he’s telling her, no, ma’am, we have interview. Your book is being launched and BBC is coming at 9, 9:30, so we’ll delay them. She’d just come for a short while. He said, thank you, really appreciate it. You’ll come in the morning? I said, I will. It’s such a pleasure.

SMITA PRAKASH: So she wanted to gift one of the pieces to Sonia Gandhi.

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no, no, not then, not then.

SMITA PRAKASH: That was later.

BINA RAMANI: Then she called me to her home and I came back to India and there I brought something for Sonia Gandhi myself. And then she tried to call. It was afternoon and I guess she was napping or sleeping and she wouldn’t pick up the phone. I loved it when she said, you know these servants. I said, this is like us householders. You have the same servant problem. She said, yes, she’s sleeping probably. And they’re also sleeping. They should be answering the phone just now.

SMITA PRAKASH: So they didn’t come. She’s the prime minister.

BINA RAMANI: I know, I know.

SMITA PRAKASH: And nobody’s listening to her.

BINA RAMANI: Other people. And then she’s calling on the inside, whatever, she wasn’t there.

SMITA PRAKASH: So she picks up some piece from you, right? And you.

BINA RAMANI: She picked two, three pieces. I loved it. She wanted to insist on paying. I said, please give me this pleasure. They don’t cost much at all. So she said to me, you know, I’ve seen your jewelry. Now she saw it. She saw it once in her hotel room and she took two or three and she was there like a little girl. This is what happened.

She was like any of us trying on a new piece of thing where we want to wear somewhere and we’re asking girlfriends, what do you think of this, this or the other? So she goes to the mirror in the big huge drawing room of the Claridge suite and looks at it. How does this look? It’s a turquoise. An amethyst piece said, very nice on you. And then she has picked another one. So she’s trying that too. Gosh, they both look so good on you.

I think, you know, you’re made for semi precious jewelry. She says, I only wear semi precious. What I love the most is amber. But you don’t have amber. Amber is the color you’re wearing right now.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, but I’ve seen her wearing a necklace of amber.

BINA RAMANI: She loves amber. But I didn’t have. Ah, okay, that she does that. Then I go back to Delhi. So anyhow, then comes over and she says to her, what do you think of these necklaces? Pupul did not like me for some reason. She had seen me the night before. I don’t know why she didn’t take to me. Also, she didn’t like that madam has made her own choice of seeing a designer directly. I’m guessing it was ego things. I’m guessing, I don’t know.

SMITA PRAKASH: But she wanted to be the gatekeeper yeah.

BINA RAMANI: So she said, I don’t know, take it away. When she left the room, she just didn’t want to be there.

SMITA PRAKASH: The picture of Indira Gandhi in that amber necklace, was that bought by you? I mean, from me?

BINA RAMANI: I don’t know. Show me a picture. I’ll identify it. If I.

SMITA PRAKASH: Because I’ve seen Sonia Gandhi also wear that amber. I have to see it Necklace strange because it’s not a. Amber is not something that everybody buys. I have a piece, but I feel a little.

BINA RAMANI: She said, I love amber. It soothes me.

SMITA PRAKASH: Somebody must have recommended it.

BINA RAMANI: Probably.

The Chandra Swami Episode

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, tell me there’s also in your book this think encounter or should I say or presence of Chandra Swami in your life. That was before all the unsavory part.

BINA RAMANI: Of that was 70s. Yeah, that was 70s when Andy had now become in charge of all the India business in America. Not tourists, but Indian. And at that time it was a big promotion for him. So he got a call one evening. Both my kids had pneumonia. They were sick. It was. It was cold wintertime. And we. I had a nanny at the time.

And he calls me from the office maybe at lunchtime that there’s a swami that’s coming from India. The message has come from. The messages come from Sanjay Gandhi’s office that she’s a spiritual. What did he say? Spiritual ambassador of India is coming as. And two or three of them with him. So we have to have dinner. We have to cook dinner at home. Because first in the evening I’m supposed to give him home cooked food and then I have to find him a place to stay. So I thought, oh, God, God. And then. And guess what he eats only without onion.

SMITA PRAKASH: Garlic.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, Yeah. I thought, gosh. And then that morning, the maid had gone to church and run away with her boyfriend. We lost the church. Rosie. Yeah. Rosie who? My parents.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’ve read your book Inside Out Rosie.

BINA RAMANI: What a sweet girl she was. She joins us years later.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you ask Chandra Swami, where is Rosie?

BINA RAMANI: And he says, she will come.

SMITA PRAKASH: Padmas of all things to ask Chandra Swami.

BINA RAMANI: Okay. But guess what? He used to claim to be able to. He would do things like that. Yeah. He would answer everything, but he would make you. I don’t know what I used to do. Anyhow, so he comes home that day and. Yeah. So children are really in bed and really red and you know, and then he makes them do this home shrimp green, param, param. They are fascinated with him. He wins them over and he makes them repeat it two, three times and they feel better.

The next day they just do so they attribute it to this and I think about Rosie said I can’t remember what he said. However, he then got endeared to us and he found him one of those management apartment where he and his two three cronies younger whatever helping boys and next thing he got after now it was my duty to pull in all the Indian diaspora the wealthy business people to for him to whatever do what he was good at which was networking.

Networking was his main thing. But he partly that I can from India we are going to make them rich. They’re going to be you know. But India no one had faith in in those days. Besides he was a. When he could read he was psychic. So he said karamath kirke de kawanga unko. So that was much later when he had duped a lot of people including me.

SMITA PRAKASH: He duped you?

BINA RAMANI: Yes.

SMITA PRAKASH: What did he do?

BINA RAMANI: Yes funds. Yeah on the basis of that is how he went to jail. So I’ll tell you what it was he now became Rakhi also would be going to him he had now become quite. He had grown left Nirbi and stopped seeing him. Now he had become independent nothing to do with their India anymore. So once in a while we would phone Aki Deco Kitna. We are blessings of so many rich people Americans all are coming and I’m learning English now and all the so once in a while we would drop in Andy and I just.

But that was at any at the time he said listen, I am now becoming very rich because the government he had gone to Suriname which was a Hindu government one time and they were Dutch colony. So there’s something so whenever he just knew I guess antenna where Indians old thinkers of India could be duped by a modern sadhu or whatever. He knew his agenda and I was not much in touch with him. This is the occasional call he would make suddenly he calls me one day several times from Suriname and he says Ya gi joa Hindu government.

SMITA PRAKASH: He was toppling governments.

BINA RAMANI: Yes that he was going to get them into power but on the basis of he would have to There’s a lot of money they wanted to give him but he was an Indian passport holder. He couldn’t have money. Could he put it in my account. I was then running Binatone. I was making microwave ovens for UK and Europe so there was no and my family extremely narrow and straight and not one rupee a year or there a dollar.

So I said no, you can’t use my account at all. Even I can’t I get a salary from this and that’s. But I’m new, it’s illegal. I have to pay tax on whatever so no, not at all. Please, please buy or I cannot trust of all the people I met, you’re the only straightforward honest persons and I can’t tell Andy I want you to do this and knowing I could be duped, I wasn’t that smart and still I’m not many things.

So I asked the bank manager when the money comes in, does it get. It gets recorded that so much came in even if it is going out in two, three days. He said no, up to five days. We put in on Monday. By the Friday it has to be removed. It gets recorded literally as end of the week starts. So after many calls I said well, this is all I can do. You have to guarantee me that the day you put it in you will remove it or you will give me the authority to remove it and send somebody or whatever. I don’t want anything to do with it. So he done an account, huh? Is it a London like to. No, New York. It’s all New York New York. Okay. I gave up London before marriage.

SMITA PRAKASH: No, Binatone was in Binatone was London.

BINA RAMANI: But they are now they were now I’d quit the Taj I was getting bored actually by now it was doing so well.

SMITA PRAKASH: So he put the money in your account and he promised.

BINA RAMANI: He brought in $50,000 he put in. It’s on record all. And this is all on record? Government of India record even it is now.

SMITA PRAKASH: And with the.

BINA RAMANI: So then what he did, he sent some Agarwal fellow to pick up. He left 100,000 there. He took the rest and that hundred thousand, some lady—I think he must have Marina something—came and took 50,000. Now there’s 50,000 left. I said I get rid of it. He said you put it somewhere where you want to invest. I said I don’t need to.

My cousin was a builder. Still to this day he was. He had bought a building in Fifth Avenue very cheap. So my brother from London had invested, was a big follower of my cousin. So he had invested in. So I told him this is the only way I can put it. It will not be in my name, it will be in his name or whatever. He said fine. So I was clean. But over there, every sign on the back, you have to write what it’s for.

SMITA PRAKASH: It is money laundering.

BINA RAMANI: It was money laundering. I suppose he didn’t know the word.

SMITA PRAKASH: For toppling a government.

BINA RAMANI: He must have taken tons more that wouldn’t have done it. I don’t know. He just put this here.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you didn’t realize that?

BINA RAMANI: Not at all. He said. Like that he’s trying to tell. How would I feel?

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re very naive, aren’t you?

BINA RAMANI: I am totally naive. But I did do the honest thing. I had it removed.

SMITA PRAKASH: The step you’re taking is innocent. But the stuff that you’re doing was against the law.

BINA RAMANI: Apparently so. Now listen. I then write to him a letter. Every detail. The money you sent made four check, five checks or whatever it was with the detail of everything. And the rest, this much remains in that investment in the property. And money has nothing to do with it.

SMITA PRAKASH: And Adnan Khashoggi?

BINA RAMANI: No. So Adnan Khashoggi had become now part of his. I don’t know.

SMITA PRAKASH: So I’m just going to his circle later.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. So then what happens? The later circle, that money, those letters he collects. And always by habit we were taught. I didn’t know this. I would write and then all the letters are like that. Like I’m revering somebody.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you kept some of the stuff? The letters and all the correspondence?

BINA RAMANI: No, those letters I gave him, he kept it in a safe. And when he got busted those letters were the witness account that put him in jail. Isn’t that amazing?

SMITA PRAKASH: You have had your run-ins with powerful people, haven’t you?

The Irony of Being a Witness

BINA RAMANI: But the most incredible thing is that this here I’m the witness helping a government wanted man into jail. He’s got Mukund Rohat, the top lawyer of the country. One of the top. Who’s representing him? I have just been released from Tihar jail for standing Jessica. A witness that they didn’t want around. Right.

SMITA PRAKASH: And now this comes up.

BINA RAMANI: Now I’m being witness for a criminal of the country. Suddenly it is the most important thing to be criminal, to be a witness for. Isn’t it ironic the roles I am interested. Look at what the universe is putting me through. It was ironic. Completely.

SMITA PRAKASH: And now you’re the star witness. A witness that they want.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah. So what had happened now in the meanwhile when they came after him also FBI came after him and my name. So I asked him. No, the Suriname people went after him for the money. So they told those Suriname people you made the check to Bina Ramani, go after her. Yeah, that had happened. That had happened maybe in the 90s. I don’t remember. I was living in Delhi. I know.

So what happens is. And then he gives an address of Delhi Rani Jetmadani’s mom. I used to stay with her initially when I was quite living in Delhi in India and another friend I used to live with in Old Delhi where I used to go to see my children. It’s an hour from there these two friends and the Nandas Rajal and Ritu Nanda Raj Kapoor married to. Okay, all three of them get a letter from FBI reference Bina Ramani. Terrible thing to receive all three of them.

I call. I get a call from within two or three days of each other and then luckily I bring it to Ramjet Malani. All the letters. I said, what does one do? He said, when FBI makes a case to be able to even hear it. To go and answer, you have to go answer. You have to put $10,000 down. I said, will you represent me? He said, it cost you $10,000. That it is the law. It was a law. I had to put down $10,000 to be heard. These three now people had called. Yeah.

So now I was furious that this bugger he has duped us in the name of a spiritual role from Indira Gandhi’s country. And what is how he started and how he’s gone into all of this. Poor politicians and now they’re on my back. But I was so clear that they knew that I’m innocent in it. I’ve just been trapped into it and always felt there was an end of the tunnel open for me.

So here I go there the 10,000. Now I put in hard earned. Then I hear that he is hanging out with Adnan Khashoggi and this and that in Khashoggi’s building, Olympic Towers, right. And I learned about where he is and I just land up there one day. I know he will not want me there because he knows that he had what he sent all these letters, he’s dumped me.

So I go there and he’s in the inside room and there are a lot of people waiting outside and including that Marina lady who had come to collect $50,000 some earlier. That was maybe a year earlier in New York. Yeah, a lot of other people are there. I mean now I remember when Andy got him a little years later, he is now this.

So I go to the room. He said, I wasn’t sitting, I was just standing in his breath. So I sat. And as I’m doing this, a man walks in his Adnan Khashoggi. So by now I had tears. I was very. I was red and angry that how dare he gives me. It’s an abusive response. Take hundred thousand. You’re so cheap. You want only 10? I mean, that kind of. See, I am inside. I am just shaken. How dare he talk to me like this? Like that.

So he sees me and he’s saying, obviously they’ve had girls between them or something. So he looked at me and he said to him like that. So I said, I’m his sister. And then I said, Kamila. He said. I said, huh. Never heard from him again. That was years later. Till I see him in jail in 2006 or whatever. When I. And he looking at me like he’s going to. He’s wanting me dead with all this power. He’s staring because they had dug out the witness account was all the letters I had written to him and the detail of this, what I just gave you.

It was on the basis of that he finally went to jail. And then he died after. So that was exactly the extent of my role.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you never met Adnan Khashoggi after that day?

BINA RAMANI: No, this is the only time. I just saw him for years.

SMITA PRAKASH: You saw him?

BINA RAMANI: I was never.

SMITA PRAKASH: You knew who he was?

BINA RAMANI: He gave me a look. But no, I mean, no, I never. I would read about him and Liz Taylor and things like that. But I had.

SMITA PRAKASH: You were done with that.

BINA RAMANI: I did not like anything about that work.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, as we wind up, I need to ask you about this.

BINA RAMANI: Adnan Khashoggi is not the type who would be part of my. I would never be in that. In that I had people of dignity and cleansed, clean.

SMITA PRAKASH: But he did. He did move in those circles, in the same circles, the concentric circles that you lived their kind of life.

BINA RAMANI: I did not live that kind of life.

Rekha and Mukesh Agarwal

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, tell me about you. That. It’s said that you introduced Rekha to Mukesh Agarwal. Did that happen?

BINA RAMANI: Yes, it did. It did.

SMITA PRAKASH: Tell me about that. What?

BINA RAMANI: She was a very good friend. She was a very good friend. She’s very childlike. And she’s pure. She’s pure. If she’s made silly moves in her life, is out of an innocence. She’s also trapped from her childhood. We all are trapped in upbringing.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, you’ve written about it yours.

BINA RAMANI: So she was trapped, I think. I don’t know all that detail. She was trapped, I think, between the role of the mother and father. She must have craved and couldn’t get enough. And then at a very young age, I think maybe 13 or 14, 15, she had to start working. She didn’t really enjoy the childhood, those early sort of few percent.

SMITA PRAKASH: And her father didn’t acknowledge her presence because she was. Yeah, she. I mean she wasn’t. She was born off the wedlock.

BINA RAMANI: Exactly. And he was a powerful famous man. On whim. When he was good to her. I mean he was God. But I think there wasn’t much of that. But now our whole life was encased in Amitabh Bachchan by now. I’m talking about when I meet her.

SMITA PRAKASH: And she was totally in love with him.

BINA RAMANI: Yes. And she’s. She belongs to him in spirit. Yes. Okay. And she believes he belongs to her spirit. They have a communication.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: Things happen. These things can happen. I believe in those things.

SMITA PRAKASH: Then why did she get married? You introduced her.

BINA RAMANI: No. So here’s what happened. He had joined politics. She had come to visit me in New York and then she just stayed. She didn’t. She was going through a hard time because he had now become a public person and there was. People probably may have said that to her. There was no chance of him ever whatever. Their alliance must have had to drift publicly no more.

And she was keen to marry someone good and important. And there was talk about her marrying my brother Gulu. And he had a bit of a playboy reputation at the time. And so he lived life very big. He was very close to the Kapoors. They were very fond of him still. So anyhow, that didn’t. It didn’t fit.

So she continued to stay with me again. This was about five weeks, let’s say. We had a very cute apartment at Triplex and we did have some amazing times there together. Lovely. Introduced her to a few of my very close friends that she became very close to and fond of. She became a real regular person. She’d go for walks in Manhattan Lanes and some of these Afghani fruit vendors would recognize her. Bangladeshi, some of them. She’d always walk home early. She was very disciplined. Woke up early.

SMITA PRAKASH: But she wanted to get married and.

BINA RAMANI: Move on in life. She was very keen to. She was very keen to have a relationship and marry. Yes.

SMITA PRAKASH: How do you know Mukesh Agarwal?

BINA RAMANI: No. So he has. What? Amazing. So she. So when I was now in Delhi, it was 80s obviously or early 90s, I think it was. Yeah, I think 91, 92. Had a nice apartment in Niti Bagh where I lived. And she came to spend. I’ll come over, I have to meet some really good decent Indian man. And I know I only men I meet other hairdresser, the electrician, etc. And I can’t be going out and all that. So Delhi is the right place. I’d come.

So a day she picked and I. Mine was some of them married couples and in a Delhi Punjabi. Really? I did tell her there are no bachelor types in Delhi that I would recommend. But I just wanted to be with her. We had fun. And so she came. And sure enough. They don’t know how to.

SMITA PRAKASH: The starstruck was like starstruck, right? It’s not Bombay, it’s not Mumbai. There are film actors. I mean she’s Rekha.

BINA RAMANI: Exactly.

SMITA PRAKASH: So he was one of the persons who came.

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no, no, no. So I had my few girlfriends as well. Right. So she got to know a girlfriend called Kamna. Kamna was very ethnic.

SMITA PRAKASH: Kamna Prasad Prasad.

The Rekha Connection

BINA RAMANI: Yes. I always liked her ethnic ways. I was too western in those days. And she also happened to be my neighbor. She still lives near there somewhere. So chatted, etc. But she’s whispering to me, “I cannot stand this. I’m going to a children’s.” And she had met Malini and Gitu. So she disappeared quietly. She said, “Don’t do anything, don’t say anything. I’m going to disappear.” And I said, “Okay, fine.”

And then later on she told me, “My God, you get out of Delhi. This is no place.” Me, I was single too. Anyhow, that evening or was it next day? Maybe. I think she was staying in a hotel. She wasn’t staying at my home. Kamna tells me, shall I tell you? Maybe she tells me this.

The next day there’s this person called Mukesh. And he is the most die-hard ardent fan of Rekha’s. He can recite any dialogue from any movie. I mean he knows her entire life. And maybe she needs a man like that who worships her. So I said, “Gosh, but what does he look like?” So she says, “Look, she had invited me to some qawali thing at the Taj.” So I went there. And did she call him there? Maybe that’s how I met him first time, perhaps.

And he’s non-descriptive. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: He was nothing to look at.

BINA RAMANI: In fact, nothing much. And he was short and he was dark. And when you got to talking and engaging, he was very nice, charming. But he could pass you by six times. You will not recognize him sometimes.

SMITA PRAKASH: And here’s this diva. What did she find in her?

BINA RAMANI: So listen to that evening. Yeah, it was that evening I met him. And we kept talking. And he said, and with such sincerity in his eyes, he’s telling me, “If only I could just speak to her. If there’s really going to be a possibility that I could meet her someday, you have no idea what it would mean. You have no idea what you would have achieved. She’d be the happiest person on earth,” and so on.

So I said, “Well, okay.” And I think I introduced them on the phone. I think she doesn’t even know what he looks like yet. See, I’m a little vague about that.

SMITA PRAKASH: The exact chronology.

BINA RAMANI: So she speaks with him and yes, she speaks with him that day. And then two minutes or three. And then she says, “Give me his number, don’t give him mine.” She takes his number. Then she calls him. I don’t know if that’s the day she calls him that night or the night after. But soon enough.

SMITA PRAKASH: And they meet.

BINA RAMANI: He calls. No, they don’t meet. They are in Bombay and Delhi. And then he calls me over the moon. He cannot believe this has happened to him. And then they have exchanged pictures. And then she calls me and she says, “Can you see him standing next to me?” I mean there’s Amitabh Bachchan and she’s vision.

So I’m saying, “No, not really. But he seems like a nice man. But I mean this is in your hands. You decide. I don’t want to take any decision for you.” But she seems to like, she realizes what feels good for her at the time. From the heartbreak that she’s in.

SMITA PRAKASH: Perhaps, probably she wants that obsessive love.

BINA RAMANI: I think that’s what it is. The kind of observance of love that she has. Yes, possibly that’s true. So yeah, within two months they are passionate on the phone with each other. And now she wants to meet him and is going to be in Bombay. So, and she lives in Bandra. She cannot be seen publicly. And she has a friend called Dipti Naval. Dipti, the actress. Dipti Naval is very close to her. She trusts. I also know her from New York.

And so first time I think they meet is in a friend of mine. I have a friend, a male bachelor who died later. He’s like a brother too. He has lots, all our friends are sisters. He’s generous and got a big place and you can all stay there. So in there, in his home. He’s not there. I’m not there. Dipti is not there.

SMITA PRAKASH: Just Rekha.

BINA RAMANI: And they talk. Yeah, they talk. That’s the first time they meet. And then that’s when they would decide whether. So they seem to be happy. They’ve spoken so much already. I guess they know quite a lot about each other. So maybe it didn’t take that long.

And then from there on, step out of the picture. Dipti sort of to get back to Delhi. Secondly. And Dipti has a right equation. But then I think I don’t know whether Dipti learns about this from them or not. Suddenly we read in the paper or the TV that they got married.

SMITA PRAKASH: Are you surprised?

BINA RAMANI: Very. In shock? Yeah, very. I didn’t expect it to be so soon. I expected certain more conversations between us, but.

SMITA PRAKASH: And then suddenly you hear about them. That awful incident where he’s committed suicide. Were you?

BINA RAMANI: Well, I think that in due course with Rekha’s life being Bombay, it was part fantasy, wishing for the best. But imagining her life was deeply into Bombay life.

SMITA PRAKASH: There was no way she could have adjusted to Delhi and suburbia.

BINA RAMANI: She must have come few times. I’m sure. I was no longer in touch. I just let it grow their own way.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you meet her after that ever?

BINA RAMANI: Yes. Yes, few times. You did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did she talk to you? Loving.

SMITA PRAKASH: Hugging.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah, yeah, loving. Okay. Totally. Totally. I mean it comes gushing out. Yeah. At least seven, eight times.

The Power Women of Delhi and Bombay

SMITA PRAKASH: So many people of that vintage. There was also Parmeshwar Godrej.

BINA RAMANI: She was not.

SMITA PRAKASH: And Rukhsana Sultana. These are the two really strong women who are your friends.

BINA RAMANI: All of them have come through my life somehow or the other. She landed up when I was with the Sobha Singhs who were like my godparents.

SMITA PRAKASH: Rukhsana Sultana.

BINA RAMANI: Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s Amrita Singh’s mother.

BINA RAMANI: Correct. Amrita was a little baby.

SMITA PRAKASH: Sara Ali Khan’s grandmother.

BINA RAMANI: Correct. Correct.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. And that comes through Sir Sobha Singh.

BINA RAMANI: And she was married to their grandson. And they wanted to find me there. But through them, David Faridkot had come.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah. You went to Solan. All that happens. And Parmeshwar Godrej.

BINA RAMANI: Parmesh was Bombay with Farida Khan.

SMITA PRAKASH: With Farida. You meet with.

BINA RAMANI: And she was wearing a white churidar kameez long cut. Sitting outside what was a shack at the time of Adi Godrej and the funeral. Bombay. I loved all the Bombay young people of our age. And they were, I didn’t know most of them. But early on, from the beginning with Farida is when she took me to Parmesh. We hit it off and there was a resemblance of something we saw in each other as well. And I love that she would sit and eat with her hands, etc.

SMITA PRAKASH: And here she threw the most gorgeous parties, sophisticated.

BINA RAMANI: She taught the world a lot. Yes, she did.

SMITA PRAKASH: And what was Rukhsana Sultana like? What was the great love of her life?

BINA RAMANI: You know, she never talked about any love of her life as such.

SMITA PRAKASH: No. In the sense that what got her power, maybe.

BINA RAMANI: I didn’t live in India those days.

SMITA PRAKASH: She was in that clique of Sanjay Gandhi.

BINA RAMANI: Sanjay Gandhi. I was not part. I was in London growing up. I didn’t understand any of that. But you could see that she had a lot of power. And it was scary. It was not the kind of power that. Yeah, I.

SMITA PRAKASH: Have you met Sanjay Gandhi ever?

BINA RAMANI: No, no, no.

SMITA PRAKASH: I met Rajiv Gandhi when you went.

BINA RAMANI: To interview at another time.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay.

BINA RAMANI: He had met my brother Gulu and invited them all to come and do electronics. He was promoting the electronic industry in India. So Bina. That’s how we got Binatone in India. It was his drawing room.

Concluding Thoughts and Malabar Secret

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, I’m going to conclude the interview. And as I conclude, I just have a last question about Malabar Secret. You’ve been working on that. Tell me a little bit as we conclude.

BINA RAMANI: Love to. Look, you got me all excited.

SMITA PRAKASH: Well, I had to. Your life, it’s such a vast scope.

BINA RAMANI: I know.

SMITA PRAKASH: Even now I have stuff which I would want to talk to about. But I guess we’ve talked a lot and I have to let you go. But before that, I mean, I want to, of course, talk about your fight with cancer, how you came out of that and that also. And then you finding Malabar Secrets.

BINA RAMANI: Malaba Secrets actually came about with no plan. I had no vision, no intention, no knowledge. But I knew that one thing that I did know is that spices are good for health. I never understood exactly whatever. And then I had had a fall and I had fractured my knee. I had to be in a wheelchair. And I had chosen to go to one of those spas for the week in Vizag called Pema. Very nice place. It was just newly opened, but I was limited to how much I could do.

During yoga class, I would sit on the wheelchair and do asanas. But there’s a bookshelf, it’s in the library there. And there’s a book staring at me saying “The Yoga of Spices.” Now, I had had cancer years earlier, from which I had recovered. But I always knew that, you know, life ahead, why not learn about it. So I was just browsing through it. I was amazed. It just got me. I asked if I could borrow that book and I kept it.

And then I just landed in Karnataka on a particular reason. My sister lived in Bangalore. But I managed somehow, ended up in Karnataka in those fields. Yeah. Some visitor from America, an Indian, who had moved back to India, had come to stay with me at Devi Ghar at my Airbnb and she did a whole research on me. She had come with money back to India and she learned that Bina, wherever she touches property, grows because it had happened so in Goa and then there was Delhi.

So she said, “Look, I have a fantastic property in Karnataka which has 100 acres and I’d be willing to give you 30% of it free if you develop some idea like you’ve done here in house guest village and so on in the fields.” There could be no house guest village idea and house guest is because of this whole history. Anyhow, I’m fascinated. I love Bangalore. I go there often because of my sister.

I go land up there along with my best friend’s daughter, Vibha. Vibha, who is genius in understanding these things. And we realize it’s not possible to get into this. But I am fascinated with all the spices growing and the black peppers and the beauty and the fragrance. And I know that something has to be done. And there’s a river running on that property. And we were filling empty bottles of Bisleri water and drinking from that, taking it home. We go a few times.

Anyhow, I know that people are not drinking enough water. This I knew from my cancer. Dehydration is the big problem in bringing most diseases, but cancer is one of them. So, and it’s more boring. But if we could spice water and drink it and also make cocktails. So even that way spices are doing you good while you’re having poison of whiskey, whatever. So I got bent on it.

And my sister in Bangalore said, “I know someone who makes it.” Cut a long story short, I find this heaven of this place where they are distilling all kinds of spices into liquids, powders, whatever. And Vibha, I have to mention her name because she is such a genius. She is younger than my daughter. She says, “Aunty, why don’t we discover where the spices are grown and how it gets distilled? Let’s go learn about that too.”

So we go to Kerala. I’m not doing nothing much. We learn how the British had done these mills burning tons and tons of different spices and how they go up into steam and then they become liquid and they are. I know a lot about it. I read a whole lot more books and spoke to Ayurveda experts. And I now had got totally, this is it, passion like I had for my fashion or jewelry or doing whatever. I was in fact more passionate because I was doing such an amazing thing with a guaranteed future.

So then I created day and night, started a company, invested my own money, put a team together. All of them passionate. Nobody understood what I had no picture in a forward to create. So stumble along the way and built a reputation, built a product so pure people who had it. I was too ahead of my time which I always have been. Somehow it opened in 2016. It needed a post-COVID type of time when people had more respect for health and understanding how precarious health is and future of every human being.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you think you’re going to revive that?

BINA RAMANI: I am in the process of reviving it. I think it would do India world of good. Personally, I think it could be India’s best product because that’s a heritage of thousands of years. Why would America and so many other countries be, why would America exist? They were coming to India to look for spices and we are now. Now I’m delivering them in the most delicious chocolates and have to make the chocolates little because those spices. Spices are burst of flavor. Oh my God. They are just bursting with amazing flavor that dance in your palate.

SMITA PRAKASH: And I love it that you love to reinvent yourself. I guess new, this will be my last new avatar. Every time like that I wish you all the best. Lot of success and it’s been an absolute amazing experience talking to you.

BINA RAMANI: I have to say one last thing which I avatar.

SMITA PRAKASH: Absolutely.

A Daughter’s Spiritual Journey

BINA RAMANI: You’re thinking I’ve just come from Rishikesh and Dehradun where I spent time. But my daughter Malini is pretty much settled there and doing course after course with Greek masters and learning the higher states of yoga meditation. And every time I see her, I just swell with pride. And I am just grateful to God for giving us this path.

And now when I used to hear her talk about it, I see her following of the people she teaches yoga to. They want to down to tears. They have felt an awakening of their own internal journey. But now seeing her this time and Rishikesh, how everybody knows her in Rishikesh. I’m thinking, wow, this I feel like I want to. I don’t want to say steal this incredible power, but she’s just giving it.

SMITA PRAKASH: You had that experience once, a tryst with spirituality when you went to Rajneesh.

BINA RAMANI: Not Rajneesh, no. Guru Mai Muktananda’s lineage. I had an amazing experience. Amazing.

SMITA PRAKASH: The maroon pictures that we have seen of you and Malini. Wasn’t that at Rajneesh Ashram?

BINA RAMANI: No, the maroons Malini. And those were Rajneesh ashram, long ago. Yes, yes. I don’t know where you saw them.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’ve seen them somewhere.

The Power of Shedding Identity

BINA RAMANI: That’s an amazing thing. This is something to hear. Listen. We were living in Delhi in the horrible shadow of poison arrows being thrown at us. She wiped the blood. Jessica Lal died our name. And we couldn’t go out anywhere. It was an awful battery. I told you. I was living in terror in those days, that period. And just to get Malini out of the room to there’s another world. I decided to go to Guru Mai’s ashram. I took a chance. I had been there as a tourist visitor and I loved what I had seen. And she luckily agreed very reluctantly. And we arrived there.

I just somehow felt that it will some, we will get some relief. I didn’t know what. But here’s the amazing thing where my respect for the ideologies of Rajneesh’s philosophies is just zoomed to the top. We know we are suffering from identity. It was, I was Bina Ramani, she was Malini Ramani. We were the Ramanis. It was a bad word because we witnessed it day and night from strangers from everywhere. If I could tell you the story best forgotten.

So we arrive here before you even enter the center of the place. You’re taken to an area. You have to remove everything or you have to first go to this under tented area where there are every shape and size of maroon robes. And some of those shapes are beautiful kaftans. And they say you have to buy two at least. How long you want to spend? We said about a week. So we just pick up two each, very cheap and really good, well made and all that.

And then we are given a locker box where you tick off everything that you own. So you come out of there maroon. And then as you enter and go further, you see an ocean of maroon. Japanese, Chinese, short, tall, black, orange. Every type of human being you can imagine. We are in the ocean of humanity now. And we are all humans and we are all one. It’s our soul then connects. There is no background, no nothing. Who do you belong to? Where do you come from? What have you done in your life?

SMITA PRAKASH: So that identity is shorn.

BINA RAMANI: It’s incredible.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you’re shorn off every.

BINA RAMANI: We found ourselves luckily and we are laughing and smiling and we are saying, I had to experience that or I would have never made it for my daughter’s sake as well.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you want that again with that Rishikesh experience, which Malini.

BINA RAMANI: I want to feel that. That feeling of perfect position. I got in the perfect place in the world. There are other many perfect places in higher worlds. Malini, when she took, she’s just entered extremely severe course. She said 30 days of this, like the Harvard degree of yoga meditation. She’s the third day of that being inducted there. She calls me and says, “Mummy, everything we’ve been taught about yoga and meditation is all fake. It is. It is nothing. What subjects we have opened up on, it’s unbelievable.”

And she’s a transformed person by the 30 days. That’s when I went there. This was just five days ago. And my God, I. So when I asked her, there was another friend who’d come from there as well. I said, “Give me a rating out of 100. How much would you give this course?” You know, both of those. Thousand.

SMITA PRAKASH: Oh, wow.

BINA RAMANI: It was thousand percent. Can’t have enough of it. It’s amazing. So you see how much I have to look forward to. That’s one of our secrets. But there’s a whole lot more.

SMITA PRAKASH: Whole lot more. Wishing you all the best. Thank you so much for this conversation.

BINA RAMANI: Thank you very much for bringing it out in me.

SMITA PRAKASH: Thank you for watching or listening to this edition of the ANI Podcast with Smita Prakash. Do like or subscribe on whichever channel you’ve seen this or heard this. Namaste, Jai Hind.

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