ANI’s Smita Prakash Interviews Lalit Modi (Transcript)

I did very well with the family business. I did all the agreements. He wanted me to constantly— he thought that if I applied the same amount of energy and wisdom to what I do for cricket, and applied it to the family business, the family would even grow more. And rightfully so, as far as he’s concerned. Rightfully so, but everybody else in my family would say the same thing.

Smita Prakash: Because growing up in North India, your family was one of the biggest business houses and very traditional. And you were the wayward son, of course you were, Mr. Modi.

Lalit Modi: I was, but first and foremost, my grandfather was very traditional. My father and my uncles, my God, they were the party animals of the planet. Every party in Delhi, whether it is a VK, KK, MK, BK, or UK, all with V and K in the middle, they were the party. They had the biggest parties in Delhi. They were not orthodox at all. My grandfather, my grandmother were very orthodox. Rai Bahadur. And my grandfather, while he was alive, nobody had the guts to do what they did.

And of course, my father, he went all over the world. He was the playboy of the world, without doubt. I say it very openly. I must have caught some traits from him, and I took it to another level altogether, without doubt.

Smita Prakash: So why was that not acceptable to your dad? If he was a party animal, why was your partying not acceptable to him?

Lalit Modi: In one hand, it was all about control, actually. They couldn’t see anybody else do it. What they did, it wasn’t good enough for others to do it.

Smita Prakash: So were those rules applicable to your brother and to your sister, or only to you?

Lalit Modi: It was applicable more to me because I broke all the rules according to them. They broke the rules, but I broke them even further down. So when I broke the rules, they got even more stricter with the others. My sister was married off to the Bhatias at a very early age, and my brother, unfortunately, because of me, wasn’t allowed to go abroad to study, had to study in India, had to get— 8 years younger than me and had to get married immediately through an arranged marriage before.

Smita Prakash: “Litki jaiseni banna?”

Lalit Modi: Bilkul, bilkul. I mean, that was the “yeh toh black sheep hai family ka.” That’s what it was.

Meenal: The Love of His Life

Smita Prakash: And pardon me for asking this, but I have to ask you that when you fell in love with Meenal, that fractured your relationship with your parents and your mother to some extent. Completely fractured it. But she had a fabulous effect on you in the sense everybody says that she was the one who influenced you most in life. Could you talk to me about that?

Lalit Modi: She was 10 years older than I was. She had a daughter. I happened to be, even if I’m a wayward eligible bachelor in Delhi. My parents always— my mother and father had an arranged marriage. The custom in the Modi family was very traditional when it came to marriages, that it should be an arranged marriage. She was a Sindhi, she lived abroad, she was beautiful, glamorous, and she had seen the world.

And she was very religious. She was an Anandmayi Ma’s bhakt, and even when you enter my house, you’ll see Ma’s picture everywhere. My wife was very, very devoted, religious in herself, but on the other hand, she was untraditional in her lifestyle. And I was always in love with her from the age of 18.

Smita Prakash: And she was your mother’s friend?

Lalit Modi: She wasn’t. Her parents were my parents’ friends.

Smita Prakash: Ah, okay.

Lalit Modi: We grew up together. My father, my mother, her father, her mother were very close friends. So when I used to travel and I used to go to America or anywhere, I would stay at her parents’ house in London on my way to school, on my way back from school or college. And they would look out and she would look after me because she was already married. We were friends of the family and I was completely besotted by her.

We became the best of friends. Her husband was a very close friend of mine. And we were the best of friends, and it just turned into love. She actually stopped talking to me when I professed my love to her when I was in college in America one day. We used to talk every day, and good things in life, bad things in life, she taught me everything.

I went to my first casino with her, I went to my first horse racing with her, my first betting I did with her. She taught me because she was passionate about different things. I went to my first art museum with her. I traveled many different destinations with her, which opened my eyes up, and I fell in love with her. And this was before we were even going out.

Smita Prakash: That’s your nature, to get obsessive about everything.

Lalit Modi: I think I have a very obsessive nature, without doubt. I will tell you that myself.

Smita Prakash: And your parents just wouldn’t accept it?

Lalit Modi: No, they would accept it. My grandmother accepted it. But my parents, of course, I was very naughty. I would find a way to do things that others wouldn’t find a way to do things.

Smita Prakash: But somehow they came around it.

Lalit Modi: Of course they came around it. I was still the apple of my father’s eye till the day he died. There were no two ways about it. They were upset about it because I would break the system. If you didn’t give me money, I’d find a way to get it from the system. I would break the system and he’d find out one year later. He’d say, “You can’t buy, I won’t give you a new car.” And I’d go out and find a way to get a new Mercedes or something. And he’d wonder, “How the hell did he get this?” I’d say, “Oh, I won it in a card game,” or something like that. I broke the system. It was a large family, it was large businesses. Breaking a system was easy for me within the system.

Smita Prakash: Means didn’t matter, end mattered.

Parenting Philosophy: Giving Children Everything He Never Had

LALIT MODI: End mattered. The issue was he would say, you can’t go to New York, and I’d find out, get to New York. I mean, there was one way or the other, you can’t go here, and I’d find a way to get there. The minute he said no, I’d find a way yes. And he said, because he travels so extensively, so extensively, I hardly saw my parents while I was growing up, maybe 30, 40 days in a year, 50 days in a year. The rest, either I was in boarding school, and when I was outside the boarding school, they were always traveling.

And so we didn’t have— we had a very good relationship when we were together, but if 70% of the time you’re not together, yeah. Then that aspect of your life and the people that you are with plays a big role in your life. So boarding school played a very, very big role in my life. And though I hated it, and that’s why I didn’t want my children— I was completely reversed as a parent, as a parent to my children than my father was to me.

For example, as an example, I always wanted a Ferrari. We could afford anything. He would say, I’ll never give it to you. As an example, okay? It used to make me want it more and more and more. Only on my 40th birthday, I went— somebody gifted me a Ferrari.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, somebody gifted you?

LALIT MODI: Yeah, my brother-in-law did.

SMITA PRAKASH: Seriously?

LALIT MODI: Seriously, somebody did.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, who gifts a Ferrari? What kind of life is this?

LALIT MODI: But it is what it is. At the end of the day, I gift my son every year from his 21st birthday to his 31st. He has 12 Ferraris now. I gift him one every year because my father never gifted me one. If I can afford it, I didn’t want my son ever to want.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’ll tell you, is that good parenting?

LALIT MODI: I’ll tell you, amazing parenting. I’ll tell you why, and I’ll explain to you today. I went through a life where I always wanted and I found a way to find it, and I was always doing a jugad to get it, right? Whether it’s my grandmother sucking up to my uncle or somebody in this, in the company to get it. On the other hand, I decided that I’m going to give my children what they want.

And today, I tell you today, he’s 31 years old. At 31 years of age, I was spending money like crazy. Today, that boy comes to me, “Dad, you know, your credit card bills are too high. You know, you need to calm down, okay? You need to be—” And he’s— When I gave them everything, he doesn’t want anything anymore. And he doesn’t— He’s not a spendthrift. My daughter isn’t. They love what they do. They buy the best of the best, but you know, I was different. I was always trying to find ways to get more.

SMITA PRAKASH: Is it some kind of a self-correction that your children do to themselves after seeing the— pardon my word— but a hedonistic life that you have led?

LALIT MODI: Probably, probably, without doubt. You know, I led a life which I would say like none other. I did what I want, when I wanted, where I wanted, with no curbs and no— and I thought about, and I never regretted anything I did. Sure.

And my children, on the other hand, you know, my son to date dreads my Twitter feed. Okay, he’ll pay people anything they want to make, convince them to shut it down. So point is, I left a completely extreme lifestyle. They’ve seen it, they’ve grown up with it. But keep in mind, when I grew up, there was no media. There was no Page 3, there was no gossip columns.

When they’re growing up, it’s a totally different world. And you know, that is a very impactful world today. Today everything is vertical, everything is on the phone, it’s on the go like this. You know, you say something, tomorrow morning it’s there. In my days, when I did something, it won’t come out for years. And when I was growing up, if I— it’s a quick one on my dad. He won’t find out in the system, which was such a large system. We had 1 lakh employees in the Modi family, in the Modi group in those days. So if I did something in the system, there wouldn’t be anybody who’s able to find out. Today is instant.

Legal Status: Fugitive Label, Pending Cases, and Return to India

SMITA PRAKASH: You spoke about the law and you spoke about the judiciary in India and the long process. And I would say that these long processes sometimes are a punishment in themselves. Without a doubt. Whenever the media talks about you, you’re often labeled as a fugitive. Now, it’s a problematic term because there hasn’t been a conviction nor an extradition of Mr. Lalit Modi. So let me read out the research that I have and tell me if there is any change in this status.

BCCI disciplinary action, life ban remains in force. FEMA violations, multiple proceedings, penalties imposed in some matters, ₹10.65 crore FEMA penalty upheld, Supreme Court declined relief in 2025. PMLA money laundering probe investigated for years but no conviction. Extradition from UK pursued by ED, not successfully implemented. We are here in London doing this interview. Interpol Red Corner notice not ultimately issued. Criminal conviction, none publicly reported in major IPL-related cases.

So what is your current status now? Are you running from the Indian law?

LALIT MODI: I don’t know what I’m running from. The best part is this.

SMITA PRAKASH: Are you running?

LALIT MODI: I’m not running at all. I’m going all over the world. If I was running, you would be picking me up somewhere or the other. Indian government has a long arm. It doesn’t have a short arm. It has a long arm. You can’t take on the government of India, and I don’t intend to, and I don’t want to.

The point is not the government, it’s the media. Because you have no libel in your country, in our country, you can say what you want. And I sell news. You know, Vineet Jain, maybe a client of yours, a very, very dear friend of mine, okay? He would write stories which had no head or tail. And I call him up.

SMITA PRAKASH: Not he, his reporters on his portal or newspaper.

LALIT MODI: Yes, it is newspaper. You write stories, but the buck stops at the top. Okay. Buck stopped at me at the end of the day. Buck stops at the top. I know his reporters well, and I said, “Why are you pushing this story?” “I have been told to write this story.” “Why?” “Because it sells newspapers.” He said, “You sell my newspapers, what can I do?”

Now, if you want to write and I sell your newspaper, at least tell the truth. I have pending lawsuits against Times of India of hundreds of crores liable. It never gets heard in our country. So justice comes, I don’t know when it comes, like you said correctly, the slow justice is a punishment itself. So not a single case against me has been registered. Why? If I have been so bad and everybody says I’ve been so bad, okay, please guys, go out and prosecute me.

SMITA PRAKASH: So when are you coming back?

LALIT MODI: I’m not coming back. That’s the big question, okay? There was a time when I did want to come back. And I had all the reasons to come back. Come back and do what? Tell me, Smita.

SMITA PRAKASH: To prove a point that you’re not running away from love.

LALIT MODI: I don’t need to prove to anybody. You say to me, prove to who? If I have— if my family and my friends—

SMITA PRAKASH: You have always done things to prove to the world things, whether it’s IPL, whether it was anything that you’ve done, it’s to prove your detractors wrong.

LALIT MODI: So why can’t you come back? That’s what I did then. But I did prove it to them wrong, okay? I showed it and I’ve done it. Done it not once, many times. Yeah. Okay, my point is, today those are detractors that you could deal with, and they were either businessmen or somebody less. Here you have a whole country where the legal system takes its own time, and the legal system catches up. And is quick enough, I will be back.

SMITA PRAKASH: So what do you fear for now?

LALIT MODI: But first, I’m not afraid of anything. I’m afraid that today you walk on the street, you say something, somebody files a PIL against you, filed an FIR for no reason against you.

SMITA PRAKASH: Are you scared of being prosecuted? Are you scared of being arrested?

LALIT MODI: Are you scared of being locked up? No, no, not even one minute arrest. Arrest you want to do, you have to take me to court. 17 years you haven’t taken me into court. How can you press me today? If there was something there, it would be out. It takes— from the time I say something, it takes 4 years for the media to catch up on the truth, or 5 years. So anything that I have done or could have done in the 17 years would have already been cleared. That is why there is no case against me. So I’m not afraid of that.

What I’m afraid about is that you have some people that I have upset, and they’re politically— whether they sit in the opposition or they sit anywhere else, they have an angst against me, and they also have a lot of clout. So they stir up—

SMITA PRAKASH: They still have clout because you’ve said in a couple of interviews of late, you’ve said that the Congress government was against you. It is, but for 15 years it’s Mr. Modi’s government.

LALIT MODI: I know, but it’s— but every time you— if you look at in Parliament or you look at speeches of Mr. Rahul Gandhi. He always attacks me. Every time there’s an election, he attacks me. Every time there’s some issue that comes up, I’m being attacked. Why am I being attacked by the Congress government?

SMITA PRAKASH: But Mr. Rahul Gandhi speaks against Mr. Ambani, Mr. Adani.

LALIT MODI: He speaks about everybody. But you know what happens? They don’t sell newspaper, they don’t sell news. I sell news, okay? I am here. Everybody’s interviewing me because cricket is so big. Cricket has become so big. Cricket has put me in a limelight, which, unlike Mr. Adani and Mr. Ambani, who are good friends of mine, it’s a different story.

SMITA PRAKASH: He bought a team because of you.

LALIT MODI: No, but I’m saying that’s a separate issue. But point is that the public sentiments are raised because of me, some way or the other, one way or the other. That is why you’re sitting here with us today.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you say you’re upset with the media.

LALIT MODI: I’m not upset with the media.

SMITA PRAKASH: A certain section of the media.

LALIT MODI: I’m not upset with anybody. Please understand, upset would be— if I was upset with the media, I would go media silent. Okay, if I was upset with the media, I’m not upset. It’s the system, it’s the laws, it’s the laws. If you— it’s the laws that are there. If the laws allow you to keep saying what you want today in England or anywhere else in the world, you do something defamatory, the law will be very strong and take and hold you to task and take action. Unfortunately, you can’t go to the court in India and get a stay order or get an injunction as far as libel is concerned against big newspapers. It’s impossible.

SMITA PRAKASH: Would you try? Have you spoken to anybody in power to say that I want to come back?

LALIT MODI: No, I haven’t. I’ll tell you why. Only reason is my children, who are most important to me, who I missed out spending most of my life because of cricket, and I gave everything for cricket, for our country, to the game. I missed out on their growing up years. They went through complete, complete hell. They were hounded. They were everywhere they went. They had a miserable life growing up. Today, if you ask them in their growing up years, they actually don’t want even to look about it. They don’t even look at that side of it. And what they went through.

SMITA PRAKASH: Don’t they want your name cleared, Mr. Modi?

LALIT MODI: My name? I don’t— they know the truth. I know the truth. My friends know the truth. What is name clearing? Name clearing, it is what it is. If for 17 years we haven’t been able to clear our name and somebody keeps calling you what they’re going to call you, just live with it and carry on. We laugh it off. We have a good laugh about it. It’s not something that bothers me, or I wake up in the morning and I look at myself in the mirror, I got to do this. It used to give me heart palpitations. It’s no longer there. I mean, how long did it take? I don’t care about the Chidambarams of the world or the Rahul Gandhis of the world.

SMITA PRAKASH: What did Mr. Chidambaram say to you?

The Chidambaram Factor and the IPL’s Move to South Africa

LALIT MODI: No, Mr. Chidambaram is the one, the whole reason the whole thing exploded in. I mean, the whole reason this whole thing exploded is because when I moved this IPL to South Africa, I was very friendly with every government. I was friendly with everybody. I mean, I moved the thing to South Africa. Mr. Chidambaram threatened me and didn’t want me to do it. I didn’t want to move it.

At that point in time, it was the BJP government states who gave permission for me to hold the matches in BJP state, because Congress government said that we will not give you permission in Congress state. So we started to change, we changed the schedule 154 times before I moved into South Africa. And then finally the diktat came from Mr. Chidambaram that no states can do it.

SMITA PRAKASH: He was Home Minister then.

LALIT MODI: He was Home Minister, he was all powerful. All-powerful. And the Barkha Dutt, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever it may, played a clip, a slap on Mr. Chidambaram’s face, and that kept playing, kept playing in the media.

SMITA PRAKASH: So did he think that you got that done?

LALIT MODI: I don’t know what he thinks, but that created the biggest problem of all problems. And I took it to South Africa, and the IPL became so successful even in South Africa. Though they had elections in India, and then the following year I came back, the Shashi Tharoor episode happened with Sunanda. Yeah. And I brought down Shashi Tharoor, if you know, very clearly.

SMITA PRAKASH: He lost his job.

LALIT MODI: He lost his job. And then all guns were trained on me. All guns mean all guns from every side. Now, you know, in our country—

SMITA PRAKASH: Who was backing Shashi Tharoor according to you?

LALIT MODI: Sonia Gandhi. I got calls from, what’s his name, Ahmed Patel. I got calls from Pranab Mukherjee in those days. I got calls from every— I was friendly with every one of them. You have that Rajiv Shukla coming up to me and saying, “Chalo, Ahmed Patel, do this, do that.” For me, it was never about XYZ.

The Kochi Consortium and Sunanda Pushkar

SMITA PRAKASH: Why did you not want Sunanda Pushkar to have a team?

LALIT MODI: Very simply, how can somebody pay $350 million for a team, a consortium, that is the Kochi Consortium, where 75% of the shareholders are paying 100% of the cost? Number one. And that’s the portion of getting 25% free equity, number two. Number three, that those people are paying, as an example, you’re paying $350 million over 10 years, right? As an example. So you’re paying $35 million a year.

If the company is paying $35 million a year, one shareholder has got 25% free and not contributing, the others are contributing ₹35 crore and the loss is ₹25 crore. Okay, they have to pay the ₹25 crores. Next year they have to put more, and they can’t afford to. Her shareholding keeps going up. Then every dollar that comes in in revenue, she’s getting 15% of the money. That means for her, ₹10 share on the day she got the team is worth ₹1 lakh. Their ₹10 share is not one paisa.

So why? I knew this is going to collapse, and I said it that day, it’s going to collapse. And what happened? 2 years down the line, it collapsed.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you speak to the other members of the team before you decided on this? Of course, there was a meeting that would take place, and they all agreed with you?

Signing Under Duress — The 2 AM Agreement

LALIT MODI: No, they didn’t. They all agreed in the beginning, then there was a diktat put down. And when Shashi Tharoor— I’ll tell you what happened, to tell you the truth. I did not sign the agreement because I wanted to meet every member of the consortium. The meeting took place in Bangalore. It was at— I forget, just after a match. All the shareholders were there except for a lady by the name of Sunanda Pushkar.

I’m looking at this agreement, and by the way, I had no idea who she was. I had no idea who she was, okay? I didn’t know what the names were. I’m asking these consortium members, “You’re giving away 25% shares to a lady called Sunanda Pushkar, who is she? And you’re giving up 15% of the revenue, who is she, huh?” One guy says she’s an automobile dealer’s child. She’s a very famous marketing person in India. I said, hello, I’m a marketing person in India, I don’t know who she is.

Then I said, I’m not going to sign this agreement till I know who Sunanda Pushkar is. The minute I said that, somebody’s texting out there, right? I get a call from Shashi Tharoor on the phone, and I saw the speakerphone, and he says, “Lalit, don’t ask about Sunanda Pushkar.” He was a good friend of mine. “Don’t ask about Sunanda Pushkar.” I said, why? He said, “If you do, I’ll have you raided in the morning.” I said, “Screw you, but sorry for the language, and who the hell do you think you are? You may be the Foreign Minister of India, don’t you dare ever tell me this.” And I banged on the phone and I said, I will not sign it.

Hell broke loose. It’s 2 o’clock in the morning. Then I get a call, you can verify this, from Shashank Manohar. As president of BCCI, who never interfered, very nice man, never interfered. He said, “Lalit, you will sign this agreement today.” I said, “Shashank, why do I need to sign it today? I’ll take off in the morning, I’ll come to Nagpur and see you. We can talk about it tomorrow morning and then we can sign it.” He said, “No, you will sign it now.”

Now, I never defy authority. I was under Shashank. I was vice president, he was president. Nobody interfered in the work of IPL. When he said that, I said, “Shashank, I will sign this agreement under duress, and I will point out that the president is forcing me to sign the agreement, and I will note it on the agreement.” And I did note it, and I signed the agreement under duress. I didn’t know what the reason was. He didn’t want to talk about it. He was blunt and to the point, and I accepted it.

I could have said, no, I won’t sign it, you sign it if you want to, and walk away. But I didn’t, I respected authority. I could have very well done that, and that’s a mistake of mine not to do that actually. Today, if I look back in hindsight, and I signed it. I picked in, why did I have to sign it?

I get up in the morning, every newspaper, front page, Sunanda Pushkar getting married to Shashi Tharoor. Now I knew why I had to sign it. And the best part is this: BCCI lawyers are there, everybody is there. They take that copy of the agreement and go. I could have torn it up after I signed it too, right? So it was orchestrated as far as I’m concerned.

Okay, then I felt completely betrayed. A fast one has been pulled on me that I’ve been asked to sign the agreement at 2 o’clock in the night when I could have signed it the next day. And if I waited the next day, Sunanda Pushkar getting married to Shashi Tharoor would have been out already in the papers. In every newspaper it was already out.

I was foolish enough because I was so busy with my game and that story didn’t come out. And so that team would never have been signed in the first place if I had waited for another 8 hours, not even 8 hours, probably it’s already in press. It was already in print at 2 o’clock in the morning. But I didn’t have that knowledge with me. If I had that knowledge with me, under no circumstances I would’ve allowed that team to be signed at that time. And I said it’s a fraud.

And you know when Sunanda died?

Sunanda Pushkar’s Death and the Twitter Exchange

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, that Twitter feed that—

LALIT MODI: That morning Sunanda’s communicating with me on Twitter. I saw that. And she said, “Should I disclose?” I said, “Go ahead and disclose.” I had no angst against—

SMITA PRAKASH: These were open tweets between you and her, open in the world.

LALIT MODI: And next I know, she’s dead.

SMITA PRAKASH: What are you insinuating?

LALIT MODI: I’m not insinuating. I don’t know the truth, so I can’t insinuate.

SMITA PRAKASH: Have you spoken to her ever?

LALIT MODI: No. Never? Never. That’s the best part.

SMITA PRAKASH: It’s only that Twitter interaction?

LALIT MODI: Yes, that is it.

SMITA PRAKASH: Even when she made the bid, there was no interaction between you?

LALIT MODI: None. Shashi only, and some guy called Joseph, his secretary. Yeah.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you ever speak with Shashi Tharoor after this incident?

LALIT MODI: After that incident?

SMITA PRAKASH: Have you been in touch with him?

LALIT MODI: No, I haven’t been in touch with him ever since that day. After that, it became Lalit Modi versus Congress.

SMITA PRAKASH: Have you met with Chidambaram ever?

LALIT MODI: Of course I met with Chidambaram. He used to be my lawyer. What’s wrong with you? He was the Modi family lawyer for years.

SMITA PRAKASH: No, what I mean is, after this incident happened with you as when he was Home Minister.

Lalit Modi Versus Congress — The Political Fallout

LALIT MODI: You got to understand, it’s a brotherhood. You know that, I know that. You live in that country, you attack one, they all gang up against you. And you attack somebody at that top level, so it became go after Lalit Modi.

And then fortunately or unfortunately, I was always at a match with Narendra bhai or Vasundhara ji, Sushma ji, Nitin Gadkari, you name it, I was with them at the match. And because they were always supportive, it’s not because of anything else. They were always supportive of the cricket. I had no personal agenda there. But that became Lalit Modi is a BJP person.

Yes, I was very, very friendly with Vasundhara Raje. There’s no doubt about it. Very friendly with Sushma ji too. I was very friendly with the people in Ahmedabad too. I was very friendly with Nitin ji too. I was very friendly with everybody because I had no business. I took no business favors from anybody. I never had any business with anybody. But I was also friendly with everybody in Congress too earlier.

It was only that, how did Kochi get into the system? Let’s understand. Nobody’s asked this question. How did I allow Kochi to bid in the first place? I had to open a city, right?

SMITA PRAKASH: You could have picked any.

LALIT MODI: I could have said, Kochi didn’t have a stadium even. Yeah. So why did I allow Kochi to come into the system? It was my prerogative. Kochi Cricket Association is nobody. I mean, Kerala Cricket Association was a nobody in our system. True.

I could have given— there was Ahmedabad sitting there, there was UP, there was Odisha there, the Assam there, there was so many other states, Haryana there, so many other states, bigger states where I could have opened. I opened it. Nobody’s asking this question, why did I open it for him? Yeah, why? Because he sucked up to me at that time to do it.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, that’s—

LALIT MODI: It’s true.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s brilliant.

LALIT MODI: It’s true. He sucked up to me, he took me out, he’d come to my house.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s all that was required?

LALIT MODI: That was all that was required. I had no agenda with anybody. So when somebody’s sucking up to you and he would come to me, you see some pictures of him and me, Google me and Sachin Tendulkar, you’ll see the arm around me, he take me everywhere. Why would he do that? And I fell for it. He was a smooth talker without doubt. I mean, everybody in the world thinks he’s a smooth talker.

SMITA PRAKASH: So what went wrong then?

LALIT MODI: What went wrong with me exposing the truth? Because I couldn’t afford an IPL franchise to go down. I could foresee the future. And in fact, when I predicted it, whatever I have predicted has come true. It is that not a single thing that I have not predicted, whether it’s match fixing, whether it’s Chidambaram, whether it’s Shashi Tharoor, whatever happened, people said I’m pulling a fast one to save my skin. I said, okay, fine, you think that. 4 years later, the truth—

Closeness with Narendra Modi and the Congress Fallout

SMITA PRAKASH: You named a number of people. Let me go one by one. Mr. Kapil Sibal claimed that in an email in 2009 to an official in Rajasthan Royals, you said that you were very close to Mr. Narendra Modi, then the Chief Minister of Gujarat. Did you at any point of time rub the Congress the wrong way because of your closeness with Mr. Modi?

LALIT MODI: See, Mr. Modi was a great cricket fan.

SMITA PRAKASH: So was Mr. Arun Jaitley, but you ran foul with Mr. Jaitley.

LALIT MODI: One minute. His wife would make parathas for me. Dolly was— I would go to his house. He was a very close friend of mine.

SMITA PRAKASH: Then what happened?

The IPL Bidding Process and Lalit Modi’s Legacy

LALIT MODI: But he was a snake. What do you want me to do? He switches sides like there’s nobody. It was to his advantage. He was best friend with Chidambaram. So when I went after— went after, when the thing happened with Mr. Chidambaram and me, and then Shashi Tharoor and me, please understand, Mr. Jaitley was a stalwart of the BJP at that point in time. He was an aspirational person at that time. He was the whole soul at that point. Narendra Modi was just Chief Minister of Gujarat, and Vasundhara Raje was Chief Minister of Rajasthan. Sushma Ji was Leader of the Opposition at that point in time. But Arun Jaitley was the voice of the party at that point in time.

So I didn’t run foul of him. I just went foul of him because he switched. He knew everything that he didn’t know, but he then decided to switch sides, at that point in time, because he was also best buddies with Chidambaram. And that’s what happened. And Kapil Sibal, sorry, said that I was close, close, but close to the fact of cricket. All dealings I had was to— he wanted cricket in Ahmedabad.

SMITA PRAKASH: That stadium right now in Ahmedabad is his baby, or is the BJP’s baby, and you just in an interview said you’ll tear it down and rebuild it.

LALIT MODI: I’ll tear down every, no, one second. It’s the best stadium in India today. Yeah. But it’s not good enough, is what I said. I said it’s not good enough. When I said I’d tear it, if I can, I said if I would like to tear that, obviously all the others have to be torn down too. I said it’s the best stadium in India today. If it was me, me as Lalit Modi, and I had to give a fan experience of international quality, I would tear that one down too.

Because today you look at a Wembley Stadium, you look at any other Lord’s, you look at any stadium around the world, the Barcelona Stadium, the Manchester United Stadium, or the Man City Stadium, they’re far greater than any stadium that we have ever had. And today we have more money in the BCCI.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, I get that what you’re saying, the whole experience of having 100 toilets instead of a dozen toilets. I get that. I’m totally with you as far as the whole experience. Correct. Going is a huge pain. It’s a pain finding parking, taking your children. I get all that.

LALIT MODI: Why wouldn’t you put 10,000 cars underground? Cars coming from all sides. Why don’t you put modern escalators going up, food courts in there? If you want to make it— we don’t need the money, the money will come automatically. You make it 365 days, put shopping underground. When it— when on match day it’s closed, you make it completely air-conditioned, you make restaurants in there and make it really world-class.

Allegations of Favouritism in IPL Team Ownership

SMITA PRAKASH: So when you were mentioning these friends of yours, there was also Vasundhara Raje. Now tell me, your critics say that Rajasthan Royals, Kings XI, IPL digital rights, all this was given away to your friends and relatives.

LALIT MODI: One minute. How? One minute. There were no buyers in those days. Whoever came and put the money on the table took it. The only friend for IPL that is so big today, you know, 11 people bid and all 11 were friends of mine. Yeah, nobody believed that the IPL will work. Even the BCCI didn’t believe it. My father didn’t believe it. So why would anybody come? I mean, I’m just learning these things. Nobody believed in the IPL.

If the IPL was so big, they should have been aligned. The BCCI people didn’t want to come even to the meeting. No broadcaster wanted it, no advertiser wanted it, no industrialist wanted it. Yeah, so the 11 people that bid, only one of them, and they know Venkataraman, ready? Dekhin. That was the only surprise bid I got. The 10 other bidders were all good friends of mine I grew up with. So I gave it to friends and family. I didn’t give it.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, you asked them to join in.

LALIT MODI: No, I didn’t. Then they just won bid. I did. Listen, it was open. What did we do? This is what’s missing from this.

SMITA PRAKASH: You asked Munjal, you asked everybody, and they said no.

LALIT MODI: Listen, my job is to present to you the proposition of what I’m going to do. I made over 1,000 presentations. When I say I made too many, these are sticking out. I tried to persuade them to bid, not join. There’s nothing as joining. Sure, buy.

I put a tender out, I put in the newspaper, front page of the Times of India, Hindustan Times, Indian Express. It’s in every newspaper, front page. We put out a tender, tender to bid for a team. How does the bidding process take place? Which is missing from the whole narrative to date. Lucky, thank you for asking the question. We put out a narrative. You buy the tender copy, ₹5 lakh as a goodwill. You buy the tender to the— and you pay the BCCI another ₹5 lakh. You get a copy of the tender and you fill it out and you submit it at 12 o’clock in front of the media. We don’t know who’s going to bid or not bid. We open it in front of you. I started the process of opening the tenders with cameras right there in front. And I opened them and the highest bidder wins. That was the system. Unfortunately, I thought—

SMITA PRAKASH: You didn’t rig the system?

LALIT MODI: You can’t rig the system. I thought that anybody could bid. Anil Ambani lost, who was not a friend of mine. He was a bidder. I knew him very well. I didn’t like him, but I knew him very well. But he bid, he lost. How could you rig a system? So Broto lost. Here’s the bid. DMF lost. One of my closest friends, Raju Singh, he lost. Venkataraman already won. I didn’t know who’s going to get what. It was the highest bid to choose it. If there were 30 bids, who knows? There were 100 bids, who knows?

SMITA PRAKASH: Then why are you accused of rigging the whole bidding process?

LALIT MODI: They’re not— it’s not— they’re calling it bid rigging for Kochi because I refused to sign.

SMITA PRAKASH: Sign, okay.

LALIT MODI: That’s what the— if you look at the drummed-up charges by the BCCI.

The “Axis of Evil” Accusation and the BCCI Inquiry

SMITA PRAKASH: Mr. Jaitley said you’re part of the axis of evil.

LALIT MODI: Yes, because he had to say something, no? He can’t just say something. He can’t be— no, he was very dramatic in Parliament. He had to say something. Axis of Evil of what? If I was Axis of Evil, why did he wait for 6 years to say it?

SMITA PRAKASH: But when he was banning you, they went through a whole process.

LALIT MODI: One second. Yes, they went through a whole process where the chairman of the committee, Chirayu Amin, resigned. Did you know that? Yeah. And who prosecuted me? Jyotiraditya Scindia and somebody else. And when the time came for me to give my statement, they have statements of 20 people, right? I am the victim. When I had to give the statement, I’m driving to St. James’s Court to go to the Skype link, the live link. And I get a message, “Now we have decided that we are not going to let you do it.”

And I’m sitting with Mr. Jaitley one week before that in London, at the St. James Court. I said, “We will give you the full right to speak your right.” And when they’ve decided, because they must have had some pressure, but they were so afraid of me giving my own testimony.

SMITA PRAKASH: So they found you guilty of bid-rigging, financial irregularities, improper award of contracts, and other misconduct, but smaller misconducts. So when you spoke to him in St. James Court Hotel, did you give him proof and say, “This is what I’m going to put forward in my testimony?”

LALIT MODI: I didn’t know they’re going to drum these charges up, by the way. They drummed the charges up for the sake of drumming it up. Then this was based upon the FIR filed in Chennai too, right? Go look at the Chennai FIR. I don’t understand, to date, 17 years have gone by, that FIR hasn’t moved. Why hasn’t it moved? I’ll tell you why it hasn’t moved. Because there’s a noting on the file by the police commissioner that he’s investigated everything and there’s nothing wrong with Lalit Modi. Now they don’t want to leave that. Now that is the problem.

SMITA PRAKASH: But that was then.

LALIT MODI: Why now? Even till this date, that is the only FIR outstanding. And to this date, everything is based on the PMLA, is based on that, everything is based on that FIR outstanding. And that FIR has no legal standing and hasn’t gone to court. And the report that has been filed by the police commissioner is in my favor. So they don’t want to release it. So they put it under the table. They put it in the file mein lagado.

What the IPL Got Right — and Why Modi Got Bigger Than the Game

SMITA PRAKASH: What is it that everybody got wrong? What is it that you got right? With IPL. When it started in 2008.

LALIT MODI: What did I get right? Is in front of you. What they got wrong? They didn’t believe it will happen. And I got bigger than the game. It was bound to happen. Bernie Ecclestone said any of the biggest games in the world are done by individuals. And they created it.

SMITA PRAKASH: Is that the problem? That you got bigger than the game?

LALIT MODI: Yes, it is the problem. Without doubt, it’s the problem. And I would do it again. Because without that, there would be no game.

SMITA PRAKASH: Why would you want to be bigger than the game?

LALIT MODI: It wasn’t at that time I needed to be. Because nobody believed in the game. Today I’m back here.

SMITA PRAKASH: How can you say this, that nobody believed in cricket in India?

LALIT MODI: Nobody believed in the T20 cricket in India. Did you believe in Ranji Trophy? No. Today you’re sitting here.

SMITA PRAKASH: No, I believed in Ranji Trophy. Nobody else was traditional, right?

LALIT MODI: Nobody watched it. Nobody watched it. You may believe in it, you can say you believed in it. There are no eyeballs. If there are no eyeballs, there’s no advertising dollars. There’s no advertising dollars, there’s no subscription. So when you say it, you believed in it, it’s good to say make a statement you believed in it. If my own— if the— okay, simple.

SMITA PRAKASH: But there’s a very danda attitude.

LALIT MODI: Today, anything that has eyeballs is going to get the money from the advertiser.

The BCCI’s Reluctance and the T20 World Cup B-Team

SMITA PRAKASH: So today, when you see a Virat Kohli, do you feel—

LALIT MODI: One second, one second, before you enter there, let’s be very clear. That today you say that what was wrong with what I did, and what was wrong with what they did. The BCCI didn’t even send the main team of the BCCI India team to South Africa to play the World Cup T20. Yeah, they sent a second team.

Now, if we were a cricketing nation and we believed in cricket as a whole board— and this is how he pushed— “This T20 is junk. Let’s not even send the India team. Let’s put up a new team under Mahendra Singh Dhoni, completely raw, completely green.” The Tendulkars, the Dravids, the Sourav Gangulis, the Sehwags— none of them played the T20 World Cup. Yes. Why didn’t they? Would you accept that today? Today, if the Indian team is to go to the World Cup, any World Cup, would you accept a B-team? The public accept a B-team? Would the board accept a B-team?

SMITA PRAKASH: But it was— see, cricket was a holy grail. You play. Do you remember the Pakistan series when it happened? Sunil Gavaskar wanted to play, but then there was a problem, right? Nobody wanted to.

LALIT MODI: The players didn’t want to play. Forget the establishment didn’t want to play it, the players didn’t want to play it. The players had the— I went to every player in the dressing room in England when India was touring in 2007. I remember right across the river from here, that’s where they were staying. I went and please, I beg you to play the T20. I said, “Lalit, are you joking? What is this stupid game? We don’t want to play it.” Yeah. Everybody said that to me in the dressing room. “Oh, we’ve had a long tour, we want to be with our families.”

Now today, let’s just sit here today and argue this. This is a great point to argue. Would the public, number one, the players, number two, the administrators, number three, accept a player not playing the World Cup? Simple as that. No. Simple as that. There’ll be uproar.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yes.

The Disruption of IPL and Its Consequences

LALIT MODI: The media will tear it down. Yeah, simple as that. Why did you tear it down then? Why are you tearing me down? Because I created something out of nothing, and I created it because of me. Yeah, and if I hadn’t created it, it wouldn’t be where it is.

If I bought Bollywood into it, if I bought and didn’t bring Shah Rukh into it, I wouldn’t have had women and children. They were 95% men watching cricket and nobody else watching cricket. Now that would not get me the advertising dollars I needed to make it sustainable. I needed to hit the saaz baaz. So I programmed cricket at 8 PM. There was no cricket played at 8 PM worldwide.

The T20 World Cup was also in the daytime. Okay? It was also in the daytime. The T20 World Cup in South Africa had no ratings till Yuvraj Singh hit the 6 sixes.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah.

LALIT MODI: Till that very day. I orchestrated that. It just happened. I just said anybody who makes 6 sixes or takes 6 wickets in an over, I’ll give you a push. I was trying to make something happen when nobody was wanting to make it happen. I went around the world trying to convince people because I knew it will work.

SMITA PRAKASH: But that’s the problem, right? That you are the disruptor all your life.

LALIT MODI: I am a disruptor. Yeah. And I did disrupt and nobody likes disruption. Disruption gets its own enemies. Similarly, when I disrupted, politicians got upset. And biggest one of them is Jyotish Chidambaram. And he paid the price, I think. He went to jail, didn’t he? Yes, I didn’t know whether he did or not for some other reason, but then it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter. In life, you pay karma one way or the other.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you want that to happen?

LALIT MODI: I don’t want that to happen, but I’m saying my point is, you believe in retribution? Of course I believe in retribution, without doubt. But point is, 17 years is a long time for retribution when I’ve given you the biggest product in the planet, and it’s only going to get bigger and bigger, and you have a billion fans. You can’t keep telling them the wrong story.

Friends in High Places

SMITA PRAKASH: Mr. Modi, you have so many friends in powerful places. They got to power later. Some of them are in the BJP. For 12 years now, the BJP has been in power. How come those friends of yours haven’t responded?

LALIT MODI: I haven’t called anybody. I’m a very proud man. I have not made a single phone call.

SMITA PRAKASH: They meet you in London when they come here?

LALIT MODI: No. I haven’t met anybody. I met some people, but who are in the highest power, they haven’t even made a call. They haven’t called me and I haven’t called them. So it is what it is. Maybe people are afraid to talk to me. People don’t get associated with me because I have a stigma against me for some reason or the other. But it is what it is. I can’t change it. I could pick up the phone and call few people to make a call on my behalf. I don’t do it. I don’t want favors in my life. I fought my life myself.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yet you asked a favor from Sushma Swaraj when you asked her to let you go.

LALIT MODI: I did want the death of my wife. It was an important issue in my life. When it came to family, okay, when it came to my family, what did I ask? I had already won my passport back, okay, from the courts. It was getting delayed. I wasn’t getting a— I needed to go. So the travel document— and my wife had brain tumor. Now it is a matter of life and death for me, okay? So of course, at that point in time, when it comes to something personal, I would ask for— I— so, but you know, she could travel.

SMITA PRAKASH: It’s you who couldn’t travel.

LALIT MODI: I couldn’t because I didn’t have a— because the Chidambaram government took away my passport, and I won it back from the Delhi High Court legally and officially, okay? I won it back. Abhishek Singh appeared for me, the Congress lawyer.

SMITA PRAKASH: But Sushma Swarajji said that it was for humanitarian reasons.

LALIT MODI: Because by the time the verdict came out, and delivery came out to them, I needed to travel to Portugal because the tumor is not waiting. Tumor is not waiting.

SMITA PRAKASH: But the Portuguese authorities said that your consent was not needed for the papers at that time, wasn’t it?

LALIT MODI: One second, I needed to be with my wife. Okay. One second, I don’t care about the consent or no consent. If my wife is going through a brain surgery, do you think I’m not going to be there for her? And I’m not going to pull every stop I have or every last card I have in my pocket? To be with her.

SMITA PRAKASH: That card was Sushma Swaraj, which was who I knew.

LALIT MODI: I may have made— I don’t remember who I made the calls to, but I made the call and the call was heard. You have one call in life. Yeah, you have one card in life that you play out. I use my card then. If I had one favor to ask, if my wife or my child is dying or on a deathbed, am I going to be there or not?

SMITA PRAKASH: And the media went after her for having done that.

LALIT MODI: They went after media. It suits at that point in time. Government is brand new. It has been a Congress Raj for 50 years.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did she say anything to you that it was internal squabble within the party?

LALIT MODI: Which— no, they never had. We never— you know, I’ll tell you the truth, I’ve never had a discussion as far as politics is concerned, and I stay out of it. And that is why I say what I say. The truth is what it is.

SMITA PRAKASH: She withstood a lot of criticism for helping you out.

LALIT MODI: But she said the right thing at the end of the day. Okay, but criticism you can withstand because if you’re doing the thing with the proper conscience. If there is a malified intention around it, then you will try and protect yourself or hide yourself or throw somebody else under the bus. Why hasn’t the BJP thrown me under the bus? Because I have done nothing wrong. I have done nothing wrong. But if I have done something, and they talk about, you know, your friendships are legendary, Mr.

SMITA PRAKASH: Modi.

LALIT MODI: But I come from— I’m the grandson of Lal Bahadur Kuhjralwal Modi. I came from— I told you I was born with a diamond spoon. When you accuse me of taking a few crore rupees, I make more than that a day in my life.

SMITA PRAKASH: Even now?

LALIT MODI: Even— we are the biggest company globally. We are big. It’s like 2.5 lakh crore market capital value.

SMITA PRAKASH: Are you still part of it?

LALIT MODI: Of course I’m part of it. I own the business. I gifted it to my children. My children own it. I’m a kept father by my children. So I live in a beautiful home, I live the biggest life, I go everywhere. How do you think I do it? I— listen, what did you think? I took 10 or 12 crores or something? It won’t last me a week. It won’t last me a week.

The Modi Family Business Empire

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you think it’s this larger-than-life— it is what it is. You’re ex—

LALIT MODI: I was born with it. Okay. Why would I change my lifestyle for anybody? Why would I live my life for anybody else? My grandfather didn’t live it, my father didn’t live it for anybody else.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m not making a value judgment. What I am saying is that, is this larger-than-life lifestyle, is it what bothered some people back home?

LALIT MODI: I’m sure it does, and it continued to bother.

SMITA PRAKASH: But is it the same thing that Mr. Vijay Mallya faces? He’s also a friend of yours.

LALIT MODI: He’s a friend of mine. Vijay is a different story, okay? I don’t know what his issue is, but it was, it was to do with banks and things like that. You know, we never borrowed money. I never took money from anybody. I never had any money to take from anybody. I only gave money. I only paid money. I never— none of our businesses have bank borrowings or anything else, or government contracts or things like that. We are consumer brands. We are the world’s biggest. We manufacture Marlboro. It is the number one brand worldwide. Yeah. We are not— I’m not a manufacturer licensee. I’m an owner of the brand. Okay, the Modi family.

SMITA PRAKASH: Several brands that you have.

LALIT MODI: Several brands, several businesses, fertilizers. You know, we have large amount businesses. I did ESPN. I had cable net— first cable network I set up.

SMITA PRAKASH: DTH.

LALIT MODI: Yeah, no, the DTH pay channel.

SMITA PRAKASH: Modi Entertainment.

LALIT MODI: Modi Entertainment, the first pay channel. There was no Star TV channels, nothing. I set it all up. The point is, I made hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars in my life. So if I made it myself, not the Modi family money, I made the money myself, okay, why can’t I spend it? The way I like.

The Dawood Ibrahim Threat

SMITA PRAKASH: When you left India, you said you faced a threat from Dawood Ibrahim.

LALIT MODI: Which was very clear.

SMITA PRAKASH: Who told you about Dawood Ibrahim was threatening you? Who said this?

LALIT MODI: He took 3 hits at me.

SMITA PRAKASH: How do you know it was him?

LALIT MODI: Because it’s very clear by Mumbai Police, Rakesh Maria, and very clearly it was all over the media. He’s given a— Dawood himself said it. Have you seen Shoaib Shakil’s interview?

SMITA PRAKASH: No.

LALIT MODI: Please go to Chota Shaquille. He gave a live interview when he was caught.

SMITA PRAKASH: See, he said he wanted to kill Lalit Modi and he missed 3 times. Why did they want to kill you?

LALIT MODI: Because I looked the other— I didn’t look the other way when they wanted to fix matches. I threw people out. I did not allow fixing to take place. They offered me hundreds of millions of dollars to look the other way, but they bet. The main problem started. I’ll tell you when. Dawood Ibrahim is known bookmaker. He controlled the cricket book. In those days, it was used to be $2 billion of underground betting. Today is $4 billion of underground betting a game. It’s huge, it’s huge, it’s unimaginably huge. Every ball, there’s odds change. It’s a satta bazaar, okay?

Nobody fixes games anymore. You fix overs, you fix the ball.

SMITA PRAKASH: Even now?

LALIT MODI: I don’t know now, but that’s what they do in pajama cricket and all the other crickets. You fix games, okay? We don’t know what fixing is. It’s become so sophisticated. Somebody takes out a handkerchief, somebody rubs something the other way, and it’s a sign, okay? We watch for these signs, we look for these signs, okay?

What happened? And if you look at the first 3 years when I ran the IPL, there was no fixing. I took a lot of people to task, and I threw a lot of people out of the stadium. I banned a lot of people to come in. It wasn’t liked by the mafia. But that wasn’t the main reason. The main reason is they believed that I would not be able to do IPL 2. Who they? That was the problem. They were bookmaking it. You know, like you’d have sometimes, election result kya hai ka? They were big bets taken that IPL 2 will not happen.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did anybody from Dawood’s team call you up and threaten you?

LALIT MODI: Oh yes. They called not me, they called Bombay Police, recorded everything. Okay, it was chatter that came from Bombay Police. Bombay Police put me on Z security. I didn’t ask for it. All of a sudden I have Z security.

There was a shootout outside my house in Bombay. There was a hit for me in Johannesburg, and I’m in Cape Town, which was picked up by the South African government. There was a hit on me in Montenegro, which was picked up at the Croatian border. Okay, my son was kidnapped in London on Sloane Street right there, by a guy called this guy Mughli Azam. Sunni, Sankhya, Baba Azim. He lives on Park Street. MI5 is trailing them. Now, this is not fiction. This is real.

SMITA PRAKASH: And you tie all of them to the Dawood Ibrahim Gang?

The Dawood Ibrahim Encounter

LALIT MODI: It is. We found it with them. Okay. I then go— they have not told the story to anybody. I’m telling first time. Now you pushed me to it. I’m called at 3:30 in the morning. I forget that guy’s name. It’ll come to me in a minute. A cop? No, no, no, a tout. You see them around all the IPL matches. I forget his name. Calls me, he’s a friend of ours. He’s been seen around all these games. He’s around politicians. He’s a London-based guy. And when I say a tout, I mean he’s a fixer-dealer. Type of a guy.

And he’s there, and I see him around. He says, you have to come and meet this guy Baba. I said, 3 o’clock in the morning? Abhiya nahi. So I said, maybe something important. I go to Baba’s house, penthouse, back-to-back paintings of Hussain, rolling charas. He said, Lal Bhai. And all of a sudden, it was all orchestrated by them. He goes on his terrace, takes out his satellite phone, and calls Dawood on the phone. I pissed on my pants, I tell you this without doubt, okay, right there and then. And I had MI5 downstairs, security. Baba says, ‘Dawood bhai, Lalit bhai, aye, baat karo.’ I said, ‘I’m not talking.’ Speaker bhi dal diya. I said, ‘I’m not talking.’ And he says simply, ‘Aabhin ke dos sa sab bul gay, sab khatam.’ Put down the phone.

I go home. I tell my wife, you know, this incident happened. And I think our problem is resolved. They just expanded.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you remember which year this was?

LALIT MODI: 2012. Do you remember where? London.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did he call Pakistan? Did he call Dubai?

LALIT MODI: I don’t know where. I don’t know.

SMITA PRAKASH: You don’t know where?

LALIT MODI: He’s on the satellite, on a satellite phone on the terrace.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you tell the cops here?

The Baba Connection and Shaukat Aziz

LALIT MODI: Yes, everybody said my recorded statement. Okay, number one, it’s a recorded statement of mine. Okay, number one. Number two, now look at the drama. The drama begins. This Baba is now seen everywhere. He’s a man of the world, huh? I’m having dinner one day with Shaukat Aziz, Prime Minister of Pakistan. Pakistan. He had just not— he had left, he had left Pakistan, and we were having dinner. There was an India-Pakistan match taking place at the World Series in Birmingham. He said, I’d like to go. I said, chalo, you will. I said, Pakistan flag. I said, India flag. So I had the India flag on my shoulder and this guy had the Pakistan flag.

SMITA PRAKASH: The former Prime Minister of Pakistan.

LALIT MODI: Good friend of mine, okay. We bonded because I knew him before he was Prime Minister. He was Citibank. Yeah. And I would meet him at Pramesh Gurdwara Ji’s house. Pramesh was a very dear friend of mine. Bombay, okay. That’s how we met. And you know, I developed relationship, nothing else. He liked cricket, I like cricket. It was good.

Baba happened to be there sitting on a table in Chinatown, I remember. At the bar. And I asked Shaukat bhai, I say, ‘Dante say?’ I don’t know. I say, ‘Yeh baat ho ye.’ You could confirm with him. He said, ‘Huh?’ That was all. And then they start calling me up on a weekly basis. Who? The Baba. Okay. And says, ‘Dosti is not about forgiven. Come, we need something back in return.’ So I said, what happened? That’s when I learned the story that the hits were being put on me is because I moved it to South Africa. So now you have to make good. Now you look at Chota Shakeel’s interview. Wait, no, no, you hear— if you Google now and you put on your iPad saying that they didn’t—

SMITA PRAKASH: That there were two people who didn’t want it to be moved to South Africa. According to you, in this interview you have said one was Mr. Chidambaram didn’t want you to move there because of elections, and the second one you’re saying is that he plays against anything, that the bookies are betting on whether he didn’t want you to move to South Africa.

LALIT MODI: Bookies are taking bets. There’s a whole drama going on in media. Okay, IPL, South Africa, England. So there were all these bets going on.

Dawood’s Demands and the IPL Move to South Africa

SMITA PRAKASH: So there were two things that Dawood Ibrahim wanted from you. One, he wanted a team, and two, he wanted you to stop the betting thing, which you were stopping.

LALIT MODI: No reason. I wasn’t stopping anybody. No, no, I think there’s again miscommunication.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, explain to me, it’s getting confusing.

LALIT MODI: It is getting confusing, so let me explain to you so it’s better. They accused me of moving IPL to South Africa when they thought it’s not ever going to move because they ate the bets up. So they lost a lot of money apparently. Okay, so they wanted me to make good that money. I didn’t ask you to take the bet, I don’t have anything to do with it. That is your business. I am not in the bookmaking.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you’re no longer in the hate list?

LALIT MODI: Why? One minute, I’ll come to that. You’ll see his own statement. You will see his own statement and live statement. He said we have resolved issues with Lalit Modi. What resolved issues? Did you? I didn’t. I just said I will retire from cricket. I gave my word I will retire.

SMITA PRAKASH: Is it because of Dawood Ibrahim that you retired from cricket?

LALIT MODI: It’s one of the biggest reasons. One of the biggest reasons. See, I’ve never said this before. One of the biggest reasons — why would I subject myself to media pressure, government pressure, and then life-threatening, life-threatening pressure. So I’m saying it for the first time.

The 26/11 Mumbai Attacks

SMITA PRAKASH: You’ve seen Dabangg?

LALIT MODI: I have not seen it, but I want to see it because Ranveer is a good friend of mine and he wants to play me in a movie, and I have to see it because I’ve just been so busy.

SMITA PRAKASH: No, I’m talking about Dawood Ibrahim.

LALIT MODI: I haven’t seen it. I haven’t seen the movie.

SMITA PRAKASH: He’s there in part 2.

LALIT MODI: Okay.

SMITA PRAKASH: In the movie, they show him in part 2, which is why I’m asking you.

LALIT MODI: I thought movie, the fictional, or this is real, real movie?

SMITA PRAKASH: Well, it’s based on real life events. You know how all Bollywood movies are, they say it’s based on real life.

LALIT MODI: I don’t see Bollywood movies, to tell you the truth. I’ve seen 3 movies, those only of Shah Rukh Khan.

SMITA PRAKASH: The reason I’m asking you is about Dawood, right? Because he’s a character in that who’s paying a price for the Bombay bomb blast which happened and the attack.

LALIT MODI: You know about Bombay bomb blast? Now I’ll give you another story. And this will blow you off completely. The Bombay bomb blast is on the 26th of November 2008 at the Taj Hotel and Oberoi Hotel. And I am at the Taj Hotel at 5 to 7 in the morning with 200 people at the Souk restaurant having a security briefing, and I step out exactly at 7 o’clock or something around then. To go to have drinks on the boat of Vijay Mallya, the cross in the harbor.

What is happening on the 27th? The 100% of the hotel is booked by me. Champions League is beginning. The opening ceremony is on the 27th of November 2008. I have all the teams landing that night. I have booked the whole Taj Hotel. I booked the whole Oberoi Hotel. That night. I have 200 security personnel at the Souk restaurant doing a briefing. I walk out, I have just reached the Gateway of India, and the gunshots begin. And all I can say today is I’m so thankful and grateful that it happened on 26th and not 27th. From my perspective. If it was 27th, it would be a complete different game.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you think that they picked the date?

LALIT MODI: I don’t know. I can’t tell you. I don’t want to probe it. I won’t be able to sleep at night. Okay, but did you know that we had 200— my bodyguards took out 200 people on their backs through the fire shaft that night? They had blockaded the entire Souk restaurant, and the other guests eating in the restaurant were taken on the back of these South African security guards from NSA that were there for the IPL, on their backs down the staircase.

I had my lawyer Dean Kino sitting on the 4th floor where the grenade was dropped on the roof at that point in time. You check with the police out there, and he was on the floor, and I’m talking to him on the phone that night. I’m at the Gateway of India when this whole incident is taking place because I had people staying in the hotel. In the rooms in there. And I was more concerned about my people out there. And I’m talking to him and I see this grenade and the fire come out and I know it’s above his room. And I say to Dean, by mistake, I say to somebody, oh shit, there’s a fire in his room. He hears that, he’s on the phone, okay? He runs out of the room, okay? Throws his phone down and is sliding, going to go down the old staircase, down the staircase.

And he sees a room open and there’s somebody out there. He says, “Guys, you want to come down with me?” And they are the terrorists. And they start shooting at him. And he goes down and we have the police out there. He runs down out the back staircase, out the back porch, and he runs in his underwear. And they put these fire hoses up there and he’s coming down, sliding down there. And we pull him out at 5 o’clock in the morning. He still has trauma today.

What we went through that day, the Pakistan team had just landed and I sent them right back. And I knew there would be massacre at that point in time. I turned the flight around and turned them to go back right there and then. That became my second biggest enemy, Rupert Murdoch. Because I sold the Champions League rights to Rupert Murdoch. And that story has already been said that I—

SMITA PRAKASH: What is the connection?

Cancelling the Champions League and Making Enemies

LALIT MODI: No, the connection is not that. I’m saying, okay, that in life it became another— No, I cancelled Champions League. Yeah. They lost a few hundred million dollars. Because they had to still pay us. Because the minute the team touches down, contract is live. So contract becomes viable. Rupert tried to make me cancel the contract even when I left and pay me hundreds of millions of dollars. To cancel the contract. I could have taken that money and I didn’t. So I made another enemy.

So what I’m trying to say is I had multiple strong enemies against me. Yeah. And when you have such strong enemies against you, you can’t fight it. So you just sit back and just let it go.

IPL Rules, Player Conduct and Honey Traps

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. When you’re talking about taking on betting syndicates, taking on the underworld, taking on powerful people, you also brought about very strict rules for your team, right? Like, family ni aayega andar. They will not be able to go and have dinner with the owners and things like that. You were also putting down rules which cricketers of the day were not accustomed to. Why did they adhere to those rules? And do you think they were outdated then or are they outdated now? Because now everybody is doing endorsements, product placements, they’re going and socializing.

LALIT MODI: Product placements are always allowed outside the tournament. Socializing is allowed outside the tournament, not during the tournament. When we tour, India team tours anywhere in the world, do we allow that to happen? No, we don’t. So why do we allow it in IPL?

I put rules in which were strict but which conform with the norms of the game, which were the norms of society at that point in time. Because you want to protect the players, they are playing every other day. You want them to go rest, you don’t want them to go party everywhere. We didn’t party for you anyway. Every night after the game. So you wanted to socialize, your family can come there and socialize with you, or friends can come and socialize with you. You can invite them there, but you stay within my close environment. I don’t want my environment to be breached in any which way. And that is the only way I would run it, and I would run it again.

And that was relaxed and not come to bite them back. But I’m glad they set it up again and canceled it. You can’t have girlfriends and honey traps and all of this, I perceived that to happen in the first place. So when they relaxed it, I don’t know why they relaxed it. They must have relaxed it because of owner’s pressure.

SMITA PRAKASH: Was there really honey trap going on, or is this just a figment of people’s imagination?

LALIT MODI: I think it’s a figment of people’s imagination, but if they say it, they say it. You know, for me, I’ll tell you—

SMITA PRAKASH: But you were manipulating it too, because it wasn’t happening in my days.

LALIT MODI: I wasn’t allowing it.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you said that one player had an affair with a cheer girl, and you leaked that information to the media.

LALIT MODI: Please understand, as I said very clearly, IPL was a nobody. I needed IPL to happen, so I needed to orchestrate controversy. It was the first pillar we built it on. I needed Shah Rukh Khan and the Ambanis and the Mallyas out there to create the aura of bigger than life, to attract people to watch it.

SMITA PRAKASH: But are you justifying planting stories?

LALIT MODI: I’ve got planting stories. I’m not planting stories. Sorry, I’m saying I— if an incident happened that you would brush under the table, I would expose it. Simple as that.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, but you planted questions with the media. You said—

LALIT MODI: Of course, I said very clearly because I needed traction. What am I— listen, it’s an orchestrated business.

SMITA PRAKASH: I’m not judging you.

LALIT MODI: All I’m saying— I’m saying it’s a business.

SMITA PRAKASH: If you get upset with the media—

LALIT MODI: I’m not getting upset again. I said I’m not upset with the media. I use the media the way I wanted to.

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re blaming the media for hounding you at times, right?

LALIT MODI: I didn’t care about hounding me at all, at all.

SMITA PRAKASH: You have said that, that Arnab hounded you.

LALIT MODI: And Arnab goes on, Arnab doesn’t let you speak. Okay. Do you think I refuse to give an interview to anybody? I wouldn’t give it to you. I don’t mind, but if he lets you speak— okay, it’s a one-way street with Arnab. Now you keep saying yourself the boom boom boom, he’s judge and jury and everything. How can— that I can’t tolerate.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so when you say that the media accuses you of certain things, you also use the media, you— with them though.

LALIT MODI: Right? I have no problem. I have a great relationship with the media. I have the best relationship with everybody. You’ll meet a lot of them tonight. I have the best relationship with every media.

On Planting Stories and Media Strategy

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so when you were planting these stories—

LALIT MODI: I wasn’t planting it.

SMITA PRAKASH: You planted questions. Okay, you were planting questions. You said this, that you planted certain questions because you wanted a certain response, and that because otherwise media was not covering you. This is what you said.

LALIT MODI: That ICL out there, Subhash Chandra tried to give his own narrative. I needed to be heard. How do I get heard?

SMITA PRAKASH: So what was your issue with Subhash Chandra and Rupert Murdoch? Let me—

LALIT MODI: We were competitors in business. Okay. I started ESPN, I took them all down. I became number one. It was a competitive business landscape. So we built enemies as far as that’s concerned.

SMITA PRAKASH: But open competition nahi tha? You had to use unfair or—

LALIT MODI: No, I won. Okay. By buying rights which nobody thought would be worth. I bought, took global cricket to another level. In 1991, I started.

SMITA PRAKASH: You said Champions League was a dummy that you set up.

LALIT MODI: I did, because Rupert Murdoch took away something that I owned, ESPN, by hook or crook, and didn’t pay me for my dues. If he had, I took him to court. So I said, the only way I can get back to him is if I own something that he wants.

SMITA PRAKASH: And then you sell Champions League.

LALIT MODI: I want— it was an open bid. I hoped he would win, and he won. And I knew it never worked. So what did we do? In IPL, we control every aspect of it. You’ve seen that, every aspect we control. In Champions League, we gave it all away. You do everything, you sell the ticket, you do media thing, you do everything you want. Why did we do that? Why would we give up control? Because we knew it was dummy. So who are friends of ours, they also knew it was dummy. We hoped he would bite the cherry. He did, because IPL became so successful.

When you say I orchestrated, listen, when you make a movie or you make a script, you script it. I scripted it too. Luckily the script fell in place. So if I’m going to script something— when I make a project, I make it on a white piece of paper of how I want it to go and anything I do. And then I see how we are doing and we want this spike, this way. How are you going to get people interested?

At the time we launched the IPL, this is the main issue. We were a nobody. Today we are not in the house, we are the house. So today rules have to change. We don’t need owners to sit on the ground. We didn’t need owners to be at auctions. They couldn’t be. Look at Lakshmi Mittal, very nice gentleman, good friend of mine, humble to the core. He goes to the match, he just became an owner, paid $1.6 billion. Sits in his box with his ushah ji, watches the match. After the match, goes and congratulates the player and leaves. Okay, that is how he owns the Celtics. He owns the Formula 1. He has a QPR team. He understands—

SMITA PRAKASH: Why are you appreciating that? Because you were never that. You were what Mr. Goenka is, but one minute, loving the drama of it all.

LALIT MODI: But that is what I needed at that time. Okay, without that, IPL would not be what it is. IPL has grown from a baby into an adult. IPL is now the place. Indian cricket was the place. It has gone second, third, or fourth tier.

On Mr. Goenka and the Meme Culture

SMITA PRAKASH: Why are you going after Mr. Goenka?

LALIT MODI: I’m not going after my brother-in-law.

SMITA PRAKASH: Yeah, I know, but why are you making him into a meme?

LALIT MODI: Because I need a controversy every year. When the ratings drop, you need a meme outside the game. I can’t make something inside the game, so I need— I’m passionate.

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re not part of IPL. It’s your baby, but you still— you still talk of it as if “I need this for IPL.”

LALIT MODI: I wanted to keep growing, and that’s why it is growing. Also, for me, as far as I’m concerned, if the IPL grows, I grow.

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you have a shadow ownership in some way?

LALIT MODI: I don’t. I’m not at all.

SMITA PRAKASH: So why do you have this ownership?

LALIT MODI: Ownership of something I created, how can I be taken away? It doesn’t mean that Narendra Modi has any ownership of India. No. Does he have any ownership of India? No. But he wants it to grow, and he’s doing so many, so many things for it.

SMITA PRAKASH: Now, he represents India. He’s the Prime Minister. You don’t represent IPL.

LALIT MODI: I created it. No, if it’s not me, there was no IPL. Agreed. So whether we like it or you don’t like it, I don’t have to own— he doesn’t own India.

The Vision Behind IPL

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you like the way IPL is now, and is it part of the vision that you had 25 years ago?

LALIT MODI: Without doubt it is. I mean, it is where it is. Only thing I regret, there is no— the stadiums. I think this— we didn’t have money 20 years ago. There was no money in cricket. Now we have so much money, and we are a non-profit organization. I don’t see why all the money that is coming in, that the BCCI doesn’t take it and build a brand new stadium. They don’t need money from anybody else.

SMITA PRAKASH: But it’s not just the stadium, it’s also young talent, which 20 years ago, unless you were born into particular families, unless you had a class, you belonged to a certain class, you didn’t. You look at the kids today who are playing the IPL, they come from nowhere.

LALIT MODI: And who do you think did that for them?

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s what I wanted to ask you.

LALIT MODI: Is that vision? That was my vision. And that’s what I did. And that is the main reason that I keep saying that you cannot go after players, whoever the owner may be. I will come down hard on you because players are the lifeline of the sport. Without the players, you have no fans. The fans come only because of the players. The players are the ones that give you your checkbook and give you the money.

If you abuse the same manufacturing process as you have called the engine or your raw material, if you are going to take out your raw material and you are going to hurt them, I will come down after you without doubt. Because you are getting these people, it’s like a manufacturing, you have a commodity that is monopoly.

SMITA PRAKASH: But you don’t own a team.

LALIT MODI: I don’t control. You don’t own IPL. I own the IPL. I created it. Why don’t you go and talk to Shukla or go to talk to everybody else, Dhumal out there? Why talk to me? Everybody talks to me.

SMITA PRAKASH: Because it’s your fascinating character that you don’t own a team, you don’t own IPL.

LALIT MODI: I don’t have to own.

SMITA PRAKASH: “I created it.”

LALIT MODI: Hello, one second, one second.

SMITA PRAKASH: “Say it’s mine.”

LALIT MODI: Steve Jobs still says Apple was his. He had 2% of Apple. It was his passion. Okay, Michael Eisner ran Disney. He didn’t own it, he created it, but he’s passionate about it. Narendra Modi runs India. He’s not going to run it forever, but he’s passionate about it. At the end of the day, you don’t have to own something to be passionate about something.

The Early Days and Vasundhara Raje’s Support

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, let me go back 20 years back. When the idea came to you, who was your first backer, and who do you owe it to in some way that this person believed in what I had. Is it Rajasthan? Do I go back then?

LALIT MODI: Vasundhara Raje. She believed in my vision from the very— we were friends before she became Chief Minister. You got to understand, she was a young girl and all Modi family went to St. Diaz School. So her mother and my grandmother were very good friends. So we were good friends since she was a— from a long time before even I got married. And so she knew what I had done with cricket, I had done with sports, what I’d done with Modi Entertainment Network. We were friends. And she used to go out with a guy called Mike Dalvi, who was a cricketer. And so cricket, although it was never my passion, it became a passion of mine after it became a business for me in ESPN. And then when Murdoch took it away, it became an agenda for me.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did she warn you at any point of time that you are running foul with people who are going to go after you?

LALIT MODI: No, we didn’t know anybody going after me till I left India. Even then I left India, nobody went after me. It was only because of Shashi Tharoor that people went after me for other reasons, but they didn’t go after me for what I created. People to this date appreciate what I did anyway. So there is nobody who’s actually gone after me for the product. If the product that I created is actually satisfying and gratifying and entertaining for the world, it is not cricket, cricketainment. We made it that it is for the whole family. And today, the generation that we live in, the guys, the boys and the girls who are 15, 16, 17, 18, they don’t know Test cricket, they don’t know India cricket. All they know is IPL, and that’s what they will know.

The Future of IPL and BCCI

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you think BCCI today has more muscle because of IPL?

LALIT MODI: Without doubt. And that is why everybody wants to get into it. Smita, there is— BCCI had no cost, only money. When IPL started, IPL was 1% of BCCI revenue. Today we are 90%. Next, I’ll tell you, 3 years from now, it will be 95%.

SMITA PRAKASH: Obviously, because people think that IPL is losing right now, in the sense that— Absolutely. Tell me about the future of IPL. How do you see it?

LALIT MODI: Double. Like in 3 years’ time, double.

SMITA PRAKASH: But viewership is going down a bit, it seems.

The Future of OTT and Cricket Viewership

LALIT MODI: Says who? No? It’s going down on television. Television is a dumb box. Everything is on your vertical, it’s phone. Everything is moving to OTT. And I always said it will. We are the fastest growing OTT country. We have a billion people who are interested in cricket. They are watching it on the go, on the fly. The data is much better. The rating information— there is no rating information on OTT right now. That needs to come out. You have Nielsen that are doing only television, and you’re looking at somebody putting on a box and the signal going through it, and you don’t know whether somebody is watching. Now you get real data of who’s watching when, and nobody’s going to watch the whole match. They’ll tune in, tune out. I’m globally traveling.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay. Everybody talks to you about IPL, do they?

LALIT MODI: That’s all they talk about. Everybody, that’s all they talk about. They don’t talk about the Modi family business. They don’t talk about any other businesses of ours. And everybody just wants to talk about the IPL.

Jai Shah’s Contribution to BCCI and ICC

SMITA PRAKASH: So when I was talking about BCCI, you’ve been in the BCCI too. Tell me, how do you see Jai Shah’s contribution to BCCI right now and the ICC, the impact on the ICC?

LALIT MODI: I think his contribution has been great, from what I see from the outside. Contribution is by access and by getting things done. He is the son of who he is. I’m the son of my grandfather and my father, and I got things done in my life because of my connections. He started doing that and has been able— you know a person by the results that he delivers. He has delivered great results and has taken India into the ICC.

When we ran the ICC, look, once again, when we ran the ICC, we had problems. We had forces against us. England, Australia, everybody, they would gang up. And so Mr. Pawar and I, when I was there, we had 4 people with us: India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. Today Pakistan is gone. So now we have the rest of the world with us and the ICC. But Mr. Shah has been able to navigate that and take this forward.

But he’s running a declining business in ICC. Only business that works today is Indian cricket. No other board works. So when you say cricket is bigger than anything, yes, Indian cricket is bigger than anything.

India, Pakistan, and the Politics of Cricket

SMITA PRAKASH: So you said you met with Shaukat Aziz. I’m presuming that you meet with several Pakistanis who are also obsessed about cricket.

LALIT MODI: I meet with a lot of people around the world.

SMITA PRAKASH: So do those Pakistanis tell you that, you know, it’s become an unfair playing ground? It’s not fair at all because the BCCI is running everything about cricket. Do they say this to you? And do you think it’s wrong if it happens?

LALIT MODI: It isn’t wrong. I don’t care. And I’ll defend it. Simple as that. 30 years ago, England ran everything. 50 years ago, England ran everything. 100 years ago, England ran everything. They would give you a tukra. Choda tukra bhej pekh diya. So we should also throw a few tukras to everybody. That’s what I’m saying. I think we should be bigger than everybody else.

My suggestion is ICC ka jo paise ata hai, us hara aur ko de do. Kya karengya uska? Ek IPL match karte hain, usse yada pas rahe tai. Jitna IPL se bata. The money that you will make from ICC will be pittance. It used to be 50% of our revenue when I started. BCCI was another 50% of our revenue. Today IPL is 90% of the revenue. So why do we care about anybody else’s revenue? And everybody else’s revenue is shrinking. Today the sports has become so wide, but when it’s become wide, also lots of other sports have come in.

Women’s Cricket: The Next Frontier

SMITA PRAKASH: No, let’s stick to cricket in the sense that I want to also talk about women’s cricket. What do you have to say about what’s happening with Indian women’s cricket?

LALIT MODI: It is also going to go to another level. It’s amazing that the Indian cricket is going to that. Your women’s cricket, the crowds are filling up. What IPL was 20 years ago, women’s cricket has reached that level already. ₹1,600 crore Mr. Adani paid for an IPL team, the women’s team. We only got $100 million, that’s ₹400 crore, in season 1 of IPL for the Mumbai Indians.

So if you look at it, on the debut of women’s cricket, it’s 1,600 crores. You will see, unlike any other sporting league in the world, in any sports, that the women’s cricket will become number 2 in the world, after IPL men’s cricket, in terms of viewership. You will see that women’s cricket will also— but it’ll take, I’ll tell you, it’s going to take another 20 years. It’s taken 18 years for the IPL to reach where it is today, to a $2 billion team. And women’s cricket has just begun, but 15 years from now, women’s cricket will also be worth billions of dollars each team. But it will be great for the game.

SMITA PRAKASH: Did you think of this when—

LALIT MODI: It was always part of our plan. I was the one who introduced women to the Constitution and the BCCI.

SMITA PRAKASH: So that’s what I wanted to know. What was your vision for women’s cricket back then? And do you feel that India has come closer to that?

LALIT MODI: Absolutely. And they’ve achieved that. It was done. We started to achieve that in my time alone, when we started having women coming and women’s cricket starting out there. I remember very clearly. And now, I didn’t think the IPL would be ready for it for 10, 12 years. And they’ve done it now.

Now I’m predicting again. The next prediction of mine is that now they should allow IPL-type test matches. The next thing that they should bid out is for test matches to come in.

SMITA PRAKASH: You’re actually taking the cycle back.

LALIT MODI: I’m taking it forward. I’m saying that test matches on bilateral will die.

SMITA PRAKASH: Who’s going to watch?

LALIT MODI: If you are an IPL team owner, then you will be able to.

SMITA PRAKASH: I would think you would say 5-over match or 3-over match is what you’re talking about now.

LALIT MODI: No, one-day should die. Test should survive. Test is a very important part. Unfortunately, it will die if it’s not taken over by club cricket because no viewership on global level. So it will be a loss leader. I’m not thinking everything has to make money. So you can develop players for the T20. You don’t have to have profit in everything. You’ve got to do something for the game too.

So as far as the BCCI is concerned, it’s a non-profit organization. But every other country has to make some money. If they don’t make money, cricket will die. Sri Lankan cricket is dying. Pakistan is crying, there’s no money. Bangladesh is crying, there’s no money. If India doesn’t go to New Zealand, they die. If you don’t go to the West Indies, they die. If you don’t go to South Africa, they die.

India-Pakistan Cricket: Should They Play Again?

SMITA PRAKASH: Do you want India and Pakistan to play again?

LALIT MODI: At the right moment. I would— the sentiments are too raw right now. The sentiments are too raw right now. They should play.

SMITA PRAKASH: Should IPL have Pakistani players?

LALIT MODI: Not at the moment. No. Absolutely not. We can’t guarantee the safety. That’s the problem. So you want to play India-Pakistan, play it overseas at a neutral venue. You can’t play it in India. I mean, rivalry in sports should always continue. And you should not make it politicized. But at the same time, you cannot subjugate— if you don’t allow Pakistani fans to enter your country and you can’t have Indian fans enter their country, it’s a one-sided match as far as the crowds are concerned. And why would you want to subject a team to that? Number one.

So cricket is not only played on the pitch, cricket is played all around the stadium and it’s played on the screens. So if you don’t have the camaraderie— I went to see the Champions League finals in Budapest last weekend on Saturday. Today’s Monday. I was there on Saturday, day before yesterday for the finals. You had 90% of the stadium was Arsenal in Budapest. 10% was PSG, and PSG won. It was a great atmosphere. So the atmosphere at a match is by the spectators and the fans.

So if Pakistani players— you keep bringing up this issue of Pakistani players. I’m glad you asked the question. Nobody’s asked the question, shouldn’t fans be allowed? Simple as that. So will our fans be allowed into their country? Will their fans be allowed into our country? Will we be able to guarantee the tension not spreading? Will we be able to guarantee the safety of them? No. So will we take a chance on their safety? No. So why don’t we just play it in a neutral country?

What Makes IPL What It Is?

SMITA PRAKASH: So what makes IPL what it is? Is it the players? Is it the public? Is it the game itself? Or is it the vision of the makers?

LALIT MODI: What makes IPL bigger than anybody else now? It’s not me, it’s not anybody else, it’s not the owners anymore. It is the fans. And it’s the fans and fans alone. Players, we have the best. We don’t need any foreign players in IPL anymore. We keep them because it’s good, because you have a whole lot of different talents coming in. But we have the greatest talent available today.

We have so many people— before IPL began, you had 20 people on the Indian bench and they sat there for 15 years. So you could not get a seat on the Indian bench. So there was such an— look, who’s going to replace him? Nobody’s going to have the guts to replace him, right? So he sat there for 15 years. Today you have a Suryavanshi who jumps up and comes out, and what a delight he is. He will be bigger than anybody on the planet Earth. He will be bigger than any Hollywood, Bollywood star. He’ll be bigger than the Messis of the world if he keeps his head on his shoulder. And I say this with conviction when I see his style of batting and the fearlessness in that boy. Whoever it be, at that age, to have that confidence—

SMITA PRAKASH: The magic—

LALIT MODI: It’s a magic, without doubt. It’s a game changer. And that’s why you look at the ratings today. I don’t care where the ratings come from. They come for Suryavanshi, they came for Virat. They need a hook. Today you don’t go and watch an Aston Villa match, or you go and watch another match. You watch the Arsenal match or a Man City match because that would drive viewership. So you need a hook every time. And the hook needs to keep changing. And so yes, we have a common hook we want to create, and that’s the main king. Let me come back to him.

The Next Obsession: Chilli Oil

SMITA PRAKASH: Mr. Modi, what is the next obsession?

LALIT MODI: My biggest obsession now, which I’ve been working on for 7 years, is chillies. And I’ll tell you why. Everywhere I go, I used to carry my little podia of green chillies.

SMITA PRAKASH: That’s so desi.

LALIT MODI: I know, but that’s what I— I couldn’t live without going anywhere around the world and having chillies.

SMITA PRAKASH: So you carried a podia of chillies with you everywhere?

LALIT MODI: Everywhere. Chilli powder and chillies, fresh chillies. Everywhere I went, for every meal. And everybody would ask me, “Can I have your chillies?” And so I said, why don’t I develop a product? And I’ve started developing an olive oil-based chili oil. And this company in Umbria, which supplies to 110 airlines, only does the best olive oil. And I started to develop an olive oil-based chili, and I came up with 6 different flavors of chili.

And it’s all about addiction. At the end of the day, like all my businesses in life have been addiction. Tobacco is an addiction product of the family. Went into ESPN, very addictive. Disney was very, very addictive as a kid, I was. And then cricket, and then IPL, very addictive. And so I needed— I only touch businesses which are addictive. So my next addiction is chillies. I’m addicted to my chilli oil. And once you try it, you will try tonight, okay? You will actually find it very addictive.

SMITA PRAKASH: What’s it going to be called?

LALIT MODI: It’s called LK’s Chili, simple as that.

SMITA PRAKASH: Oh, the K is there.

LALIT MODI: Yeah, everywhere. Lalit Kumar, Krishan Kumar, Vinay Kumar, Bhupinder Kumar, Umesh Kumar, you know, all the Modis are Ks.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, so is it going to be a desi chili?

Chilli Business, Passport, and Personal Life

Lalit Modi: Is it Indian chili? Naga Ghost. So I have level 1 to 6. Level 1 is for my grandson, is that mild. It’s not even 2 years old can eat it. Then, which is an ancho Peruvian chili. Then there is a cayenne, which is the European chili, is number 2. Then the bird’s eye, which is a very spicy Thai chili, that’s a number 3 level. Then you go to habanero, which is a Mexican chili, number 4. Then you go to a Scotch bonnet, which is an African chili. It’s very tasty, actually, the African chili. And then the final one is number 6, which is the Naga Ghost, Bhut Jolokia.

Smita Prakash: Ah, the SME’s one.

Lalit Modi: Yes.

Smita Prakash: So we’re going to do an interview, I’m sure, where I’ll ask you one question and taste one chilli and the second one—

Lalit Modi: That’s the best way to do it. And I have it as single dose.

Smita Prakash: There’s that show which is like—

Lalit Modi: Single dose. I have them as single dose.

Smita Prakash: No, thank you.

Lalit Modi: No, the chillies are single dose. You can carry in your pocket. Then you use and throw.

Smita Prakash: People carry truffle oil. They don’t carry chilli oil. What are you doing?

Lalit Modi: You’ll talk to me after 2 years when it becomes an obsession of yours.

Smita Prakash: Okay, so is it going to be called— in the sense that are you going to market it as an Indian chilli?

Lalit Modi: It started with the Naga Ghost and then I started developing. I think everybody wanted something weaker and something less. And that’s as we developed all the other chains, the main product is, and the hero product is the Naga Ghost.

Passport Saga and Indian Identity

Smita Prakash: Okay, so I know I shouldn’t be asking this, but what is your, what is the latest on your passport saga? Which passport do you own?

Lalit Modi: Where is it? I gave up my Indian citizenship officially. Yeah, so the Malawian is the passport I have.

Smita Prakash: Yeah, is it all legal now?

Lalit Modi: Completely legal, absolutely legal.

Smita Prakash: You don’t want to go back to an Indian passport.

Lalit Modi: I would go back, but you know how it started? Simple as that. I don’t understand this. My passport is 10-year passport, right? It got renewed. I got it in 2014. 2024, it comes up for renewal. I sent it to the embassy for renewal. It says pending, pending, pending, pending. Nobody wants to take up my application for renewal. It’s automatic process. It’s not something that is there. There’s no case against me.

Smita Prakash: You know all the High Commissioners in—

Lalit Modi: I don’t call anybody. I didn’t call anybody. I kept asking the system. I asked my security to call the system. They said pending. Then they want a report from the police. There’s no— they got the police report. There is nothing outstanding against me. Again pending. So I got tired of that pending and I just said I got to move on. Simple as that. I can’t travel if I don’t have a passport.

Smita Prakash: But why not a UK passport?

Lalit Modi: I have a— I am a full resident of the United Kingdom.

Smita Prakash: But not a passport?

Lalit Modi: I have to reach a certain number of days in the eligibility criteria, but you’ll get there. But there is nothing against me, so why do I have to worry about it? But my life doesn’t mean I can’t travel. It impairs my life. It is not— passport is not about citizenship. I’m a born-bred Indian and I’ll always be. It is a document to travel as far as I’m concerned.

Smita Prakash: Okay, but you identify as an Indian?

Lalit Modi: 100%. There is nothing else in me. My blood is 100%. I’m passionate about the country. I love my country. I would never do anything against my country, ever.

Life Beyond Cricket

Smita Prakash: Cricket is clearly your agenda of your life, but other than cricket, is there anything else?

Lalit Modi: When cricket is over, IPL is over, I just— I like to watch it. It’s my baby. Now it’s my time to go on vacation. I’m retired. So as far as I’m concerned, when IPL comes, I’m just passionate about it and I wake up again and I start looking at it.

Smita Prakash: But it’s only IPL?

Lalit Modi: You don’t watch any other cricket? I watch India cricket, but I don’t watch any other cricket. Why? I watch football, I watch Formula 1, I watch other— other tennis. I enjoy cricket, I enjoy Indian cricket.

Smita Prakash: When cricketers go around the world and if they see you in an airport, or if they come to London and they see you, do they come up and meet you?

Lalit Modi: Of course they know, of course they do. Every one of them do, every one of them does. There’s not one who doesn’t. Everyone writes to me. Everybody is appreciative of opening this whole Pandora’s box of them having an earning out of it. That’s a gratifying feeling.

So it’s not about— you keep saying ownership. Who cares about the ownership? It’s far bigger than the ownership. Nobody talks to all our biggest industrialists and put them on air all the time, and they have billions and billions of making, and you can’t buy this at any price. So you say, why do I do it? I don’t do it for the money. I do it for what it gratifies me. It’s something my children can look up to and my grandchildren can look up to. It’s Nana on the television or being interviewed out here. He created this.

All of them say that. They tell their children, look what he’s created. The number of messages people come up to me and say, look, our children are so happy. Can you get our children into this? I think I have no role to play, but just so thank you so much. I give speeches at Eton. I’m going and giving speeches at colleges. People are asking me, not because of Lalit Modi making something out of it, it’s because I created a model which nobody could think about and could do.

And because— and I’d say it very confidently, you may call it narcissistic or you may call it what you want— if I hadn’t been in every one of my businesses my father put me, I would not have the idea to put together and string together the IPL. IPL is a format that like none other and has never been done before, and I pulled things out of the, out of the realm to make it. And I made it foolproof, and I say it very clearly, foolproof from a Murdoch, foolproof from anybody becoming. And so it’s foolproof from a monopoly like it happened with Geo and ESPN Star. Right now it is foolproof. They will not have monopoly next season. And when the next bids go out, there will be somebody to break it. If people think the price will go down, I would say right now I’m a bidder at double the price. At 5.6, you can’t bid. Says who? Why? Why?

Smita Prakash: They kept you out of IPL and said you’re out of a lifetime through another person. You don’t remember?

Lalit Modi: No, no shadow. They kept me out of IPL doesn’t mean I can’t be a broadcaster, television owner.

Smita Prakash: Oh, okay.

Lalit Modi: I can have a television company tomorrow morning. Why can’t I bid? I mean, I can’t afford it myself.

Smita Prakash: You know that the Constitution, they will throw it at you, the book at you.

Lalit Modi: Listen, there are ways I can advise people to do it. It’s not about that. I’m just saying there are ways. It’s not personally owning it. It’s— when I say own it, is I will advise somebody what to do with it, and there will be big funds, American funds, who will want it. Okay, when they see the value in it, why would anybody leave the value on the table is what I meant.

Smita Prakash: It’s too big, right?

Lalit Modi: Right. And it will become bigger. It can’t be owned by one person. Correct. That’s what I’m saying.

The Biopic

Smita Prakash: Okay, you’ve also hinted at a biopic. Is there a biopic in the making?

Lalit Modi: There is. It’s all being scripted right now. It’s a lot of— I’ve already sat in hundreds of hours of interviews with scriptwriters. And so I have a whole team under Sneha Rajani, who used to run Sony and Aloka, who are looking after my interest. But we are just scripting the story now.

Smita Prakash: Okay, who do you want to play?

Lalit Modi: Ranveer wants to play me. He came in for me. I would like him to play, but if he has the time— now he becomes so big.

Smita Prakash: He’s played Kapil Dev already.

Lalit Modi: I know, but he came to— they asked him, I didn’t know Ranveer, I knew Deepika very well. I never met Ranveer. One day I get a call, Ranveer wants to see you. And he comes to London to see me a few years ago, 2 years ago. And it all happened that he was at, he said his life, if there was one role he wanted to play, it would be Lalit Modi as Commissioner. That’s how that role came up. It wasn’t me asking him. Of course, I think he’s great. Without doubt, he’s amazing. And what he has done with Dhurandhar is amazing.

Whether he still wants to play me or not, but 2 years ago we sat here right in this house. Right here, and we talked about them playing, and we were going to take it forward. But we are now scripting it. As you said, the time is not right. As and when the time is right, let me get the script together. It’s a lot of work. It’s going to be a big, big production because IPL was created by me going around the world to create it, and how we did it. The IPL story is not only in India, it’s a global story, and it’s a business story, and it’s a humanity story.

Regrets and Family

Smita Prakash: You are exuberant like you were when you started with IPL. You’re the same person even now. Any regrets in life that you have?

Lalit Modi: Never.

Smita Prakash: Not regarding just IPL, but regarding your family, regarding not being able to go back to India?

Lalit Modi: I had regrets, not anymore. I’m just content that I’m— you know, my grandson is amazing, everything. I want to see him all the time. And so for me, and I’m going to have another one. So to me, that is more gratifying. And I never knew what the experience was like. He’s only 2 years old, and when he comes, the whole house changes. Everything else changes. Everybody else is second. My daughter goes second, my son goes second, and he becomes the prize out there. And that’s what it’s all about for me now. You know, I’m 63 years old. It’s time to move on. So when somebody says, come back and do what? I have a beautiful life. Why would I come back and do what?

Smita Prakash: Would you not want to come back? And meet with your mother, your brothers?

Lalit Modi: My brother comes to see me here. My mother doesn’t want to talk. She doesn’t want to talk.

Smita Prakash: That relationship never got mended?

Lalit Modi: No. We tried to mend it. I ran into her in Formula 1 in Abu Dhabi, which I haven’t told anybody, on December 9th last year. Just 4 months ago. She was shocked to see me. I hadn’t seen her for 8, 9 years. I went up to her, I kissed her feet, kissed her and I touched her feet. I said, “How’s everything?” And she met Rima. And she says, it was like, it was a complete shock. I said, “Why don’t you come out for dinner with me tonight?” I took her out for dinner and we talked about it to mend things. And she said, and she told Rima, “I hope I’m going to take Rima, I’m going to hold you responsible that he doesn’t change his mind, that he will do the deal.” But then she backed out for some reason or the other. But that’s up to her. Time is on my side. I don’t care. I’m not going anywhere. My children are not going anywhere, you know.

Smita Prakash: So, and your sister?

Lalit Modi: I haven’t seen her for a long time. I saw her daughter, but I haven’t seen her for a long time.

Smita Prakash: But being the eldest—

Lalit Modi: No, I’m not the eldest. My sister’s the—

Smita Prakash: Your sister is eldest.

Lalit Modi: She’s a year older than I am.

Smita Prakash: Do you feel any responsibility of building ties with the rest of your family?

Lalit Modi: I have the best ties of the entire Modi family. Modi family is a large family.

Smita Prakash: Your uncles and every—

Family and Future Plans

LALIT MODI: I see them all the time. I see my brother all the time. I see all the children all the time. My mother doesn’t get along with my family, with the whole Modi family, for some reason or the other, which has its own problems. Complicated. That will come out on the TV.

SMITA PRAKASH: All families are complicated.

LALIT MODI: No, ours is worse than Dynasty and Dallas put together. And that TV series is coming out. I am in the works of making it, the Modi family TV series. There’s a whole Netflix type of show. It’s not on Netflix. We haven’t decided who we’re going to give it to, but it’s the saga of the Modi family. We are quite a scandalous family, to tell the least.

SMITA PRAKASH: Okay, looking forward to it. Thank you so much for the time you’ve given us, and all the best to you.

LALIT MODI: Thank you very much. Thank you. Take care.

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