Read the full transcript of journalist and author Mehdi Hasan’s interview on PBD Podcast, June 4, 2026.
Editor’s Note: In this episode of the PBD Podcast, host Patrick Bet-David sits down with journalist and author Mehdi Hasan for a wide-ranging conversation about his career, political views, and transition into entrepreneurship. The two engage in a spirited debate covering topics ranging from U.S. foreign policy and the dynamics of the Iran-Israel conflict to Hasan’s critique of the current media landscape.
Introduction and Background
PATRICK BET-DAVID: We have a special guest in the house, one of the biggest MAGA spokespersons out there in the world. Hardcore, hardcore MAGA. Now a capitalist. He runs a very successful business now after leaving MSNBC, is crushing it. But it’s great to have you on the podcast today, Mehdi Hasan.
MEHDI HASAN: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes, of course. And obviously I’ve been watching you for many years and we reached out. We said, let’s invite him on board. And then Rob said, Mehdi said yes. I said, this is great.
MEHDI HASAN: It took a long time to get to yes, but I’m here.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes. So what took— what took such a long time? What were you worried about? Were you afraid of somebody capitalist? Is it like, this guy’s going to be—
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know. I’ve seen your show. It’s an entertaining show. I know it’s a very different format today. I don’t know. I’m genuinely intrigued as to what we’re going to talk about today.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And I’m genuinely interested in learning your story. Okay, so tell me your story, your background.
Growing Up Between Two Worlds
MEHDI HASAN: My background is— if the accent didn’t give it away— I’m a British American. I’m a dual national. British-American citizen, citizen of both great countries, born and raised in the UK. My parents, immigrants from India, moved to the UK in the ’60s.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What part of India?
MEHDI HASAN: South India, Hyderabad. Okay. Best biryani in the world.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Best beer? Biryani. Biryani? That’s the best beer.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not going to be the guy who gives you beer recommendations.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, got it. So I went to Mumbai. I went to Mumbai 8 years ago and I spoke at IIT Institute.
MEHDI HASAN: Oh, yes.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Incredible experience.
MEHDI HASAN: But Hyderabad has better food. So I have to say that as a Hyderabadi. So my parents moved in the ’60s and ’70s to the UK. I was born in ’79. I think we’re similar in age. And I moved to the US 12 years ago come February. So it’s been over a decade I’ve been here. Became a citizen in 2020. Been a journalist all my life.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you prefer, UK or—
MEHDI HASAN: I know— listen, this is a controversial question. Just ask.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t want to upset mom, so you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.
MEHDI HASAN: They both have their brilliance. I go back to the UK all the time. I’m heading out there next week. I get to go for work and pleasure, and I love going back to the UK. But the US, I gotta say, the US has given me opportunities and open doors that even the UK I don’t think could have done, really.
And I think you hear that from a lot of Black and brown folks from the UK, because I’m someone who’s criticized racism, obviously. Sure, in the UK and in the US. But what’s interesting is you talk to people in the media space, entertainment space, you look at someone like Idris Elba, you look at someone like my good friend, my old school friend Riz Ahmed, Oscar-winning, Emmy-winning actor. They’ve all talked about how when they came to the US, they got more opportunities than they got in the UK.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why do you think that is? Is it just capitalism? Is it just business? Is it incentives?
MEHDI HASAN: I think there’s also— I mean, the country is a bigger country. I think we can sometimes forget when we live here how big— how this is a continent of a country. So just geographically, space-wise, there’s more places to just do things. The UK is very heavily concentrated around London, right? The entire country, to the great consternation of people in Manchester, Birmingham, the entire economy is centered around one city. Politics is centered around Westminster in London.
And I think there’s also— in England, we don’t have the legacy of plantation slavery and the Black struggle for civil rights in the US, but we do have a different kind of legacy of empire and that form of history to overcome. I don’t know the right word. I’m looking for like staid, stodgy. It’s just the kind of an old way of doing things. You hit a different kind of glass ceiling in the UK.
I’m not giving a pass to old kinds of racism and bigotry there still is in the US that we’re still fighting with. But there is something about being a person of color and just having a little bit more ambition in the US. It’s going to get me in huge trouble with the two of us. I’m screwed now when I go back to the UK next week if this airs before.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Both of us are brown and winning in America, which is a good thing.
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, from different, different parts of the political—
Mehdi’s Early Life and Personality
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s right, that’s right. By the way, in high school, if I was in high school with you, you’re 15, 16, who’s Mehdi Hasan? What were you doing?
MEHDI HASAN: I was the same person I am now. I was a debater.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I talked a lot. Teachers, students, professors, didn’t matter.
MEHDI HASAN: I found report cards recently that my children and I sat and went through. It was really embarrassing. My daughter sat with me. We went through the report cards. Every single one is, “He doesn’t stop talking, he answers back, he thinks he knows everything, he won’t stop asking questions.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is that a family thing or is that a you thing?
MEHDI HASAN: It’s a family thing for sure. Yeah, I wrote about it in the book. My father passed away last year. Thank you. He was a very disputatious individual. Loved to debate, loved to argue, super provocative even in the Muslim community.
The story I tell— remember in the late ’80s, you’ll remember this because you’re of Iranian heritage— Ayatollah Khomeini gives the fatwa against Salman Rushdie.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes, Satanic Verses.
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, Muslims in the UK are furious, especially in the UK.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, he helped them sell millions of copies.
MEHDI HASAN: Indeed, indeed. So listen to this. So in Bradford, big Muslim city in the UK, they even burned copies of The Satanic Verses. Huge issue we could talk about another time. But anyways, huge issue in the UK. My dad goes out and buys a copy of The Satanic Verses—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: As a Muslim—
MEHDI HASAN: As a Muslim— and puts it on our dining room bookshelf right next to the table. So every time our friends, family come over for dinner, it’s there. And people are saying to my dad, “What the hell are you doing here? Why do you have Satanic Verses on your bookshelf?” My dad said, “Have you read it?” And they said, “No.” He said, “Well, how do you know what to object to about it?”
And I think that attitude of his, which was quite provocative at the time, and even till his death he was known as a provocative individual, I think I borrowed a lot of that. The ability to be able to ask questions, be offensive if need be, be provocative if need be, don’t give a shit what people think. If you need to ask the right questions, you need to say what you want to say. That very much comes from my father, from my household growing up. My sister is also a journalist. We’re very similar in that sense about—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Was he a journalist or no?
MEHDI HASAN: No, he wasn’t, but he was very political. He was a civil engineer. My mother’s a doctor, the very classic Asian Desi Indian couple. But he was very political from the moment he moved to the UK. He loved British politics till he passed away. He was asking me questions about Trump. “What’s he doing? Is he going to survive?” Like, in 2024, all he did, all he asked me was, “Why are they running Biden? Why are they running Biden?”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: At what age?
MEHDI HASAN: This was at 80. He passed away last year at 87, so this would have been at 86.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Good for him.
MEHDI HASAN: So he was super sharp to the very end. No, unfortunately he wasn’t sharp at the end. But even when he wasn’t sharp at the end, he was still very political. Just wanted to talk about politics whenever I called.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Never had a desire to run and do anything?
MEHDI HASAN: Just an opinion? No, no, just loved it. There’s a certain generation of Indian immigrant men who have a lot of opinions.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, the opinion part I agree.
MEHDI HASAN: But he also read broadly, read widely. He could quote Shakespeare.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Who influenced him? What influences politics?
MEHDI HASAN: His uncle growing up. My dad grew up as an orphan. His father died when he was 2. He was raised by his uncle mainly, who was a kind of polymath. And I think he absorbed a lot of that. So my father was someone who could quote Shakespeare, but he could also quote Allama Iqbal, the famous Urdu poet. Like, he could switch between different cultures, different intellectual references. So it put a lot of pressure on me and my sister.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But was he a devout liberal himself? Like, would you consider him a— would he today be a progressive himself or no?
MEHDI HASAN: I think he very much would see himself as a liberal.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay.
MEHDI HASAN: My parents are very different. I think my mother is more conservative, more practicing. My father was more intellectually engaged with the religion.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Like a literal conservative? Like conservative conservative?
MEHDI HASAN: What’s your definition?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Like, she’s pro-Trump? No.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, so what is sensible? She’s a sensible—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She says—
MEHDI HASAN: I mean conservative, like socially conservative, you know, Islam, making sure that when we were kids she was the one who made sure we prayed and we fasted, we read Quran and all of that stuff. My father was the person who made sure that we were asking questions about the world. And yes, the culture, very much the language, the culture, all of that stuff.
The Path to Journalism
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Got it. So did they know you’re going to get into journalism?
MEHDI HASAN: No.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How did that happen? Like, when was it, “Dad, this is what I’m going to do?”
MEHDI HASAN: I went to university in the late ’90s. I went to Oxford. I did politics, philosophy, economics, which is this degree— mathematics, economics. Yeah, it’s a famous degree in the UK that politicians love to do. Prime ministers love to— David Cameron did PPE. Like, it’s called the degree of prime ministers. Like, it’s famous. I did that degree and I didn’t like the economics. I struggled with the philosophy, and though I enjoyed it, and I loved the politics, I didn’t know what to do.
Most of my friends left university and went into finance, investment banking, management consulting. I knew I didn’t want to do that, so that left me with a kind of, what do I do now? And I kind of fell into journalism. People ask me at events now, young people, like, “What’s your story? How do I become a—” I wish I had like a Marvel origin story. I don’t. It’s not like I dreamt of being a journalist. It’s just I didn’t know what else to do. I have a big mouth. I’ll try this.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You would have been great in sales. You would have been great in finance. You would have done very—
MEHDI HASAN: Finance? I can’t deal with numbers.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, you’re saying you did— well, PPE, you’re saying the guys—
MEHDI HASAN: That’s why the economics— I did enjoy the math part of economics.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But at that time, you have no aspirations for politics?
MEHDI HASAN: No, it came later. I did— there was a period where I was very aspirational. I thought about—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: To run?
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, to run as a member of parliament, be a politician. And then I realized it’s not for me. When you cover it as a journalist, you’re like, “This world—”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I mean, it’s not for you.
MEHDI HASAN: To run for office?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You, do you ever watch Mamdani? You’re like, “Dude, I could do that better.” Mamdani’s— I know I could do it.
Mamdani, Trump, and the Art of Political Persuasion
MEHDI HASAN: No, because I’ll tell you why. Mamdani has an electric smile. I know Zohran well. I’ve met him a few times. He actually spoke at our anniversary party recently, and I had to speak after him. And I’m kind of arrogant. I think of myself as a good speaker. I got nervous that day. I have to speak after Zohran Mamdani. What the hell?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What am I doing here? Did you feel the energy that he had?
MEHDI HASAN: He was Muhammad Ali. I’m looking straight there at Ali right there. He is the Muhammad Ali of politics right now. Just the energy in the room, people going crazy, his every move, hanging off his every word. He’s got that. If he was American-born, he would be one of the top runners and riders for 2028 easily. Super capable.
But here’s the difference between me and Zohran Mamdani. There are many differences. The big one is he has this charming, electric smile. He is, you know, he’s the guy who kisses babies at events. He wins people over. I have what’s called RAMF. I have Resting Angry Muslim Face. So when I’m talking to people, when I’m listening, I look mad, right? People have told me this over the years. Producers have told me in my ear, “You look angry, smile.” Not in a misogynistic way, like you said to women, “You should smile.” But people tell me, “Smile.” So for me running for office, I look angry all the time. You can’t win like that. You need the smiling. You’re brown, you need to be smiling.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Kelly or Mickey or people, family that are taking pictures, “Patrick, can you smile please?” “I’m smiling.” “You’re not smiling.” So maybe it’s a Middle Eastern thing. I don’t know.
MEHDI HASAN: But I think for brown and Black people, sorry to come back to racism again, I do think there’s that extra pressure to show you’re not an angry Black man, angry brown man. Obama was always seen as beloved because he was like, “Oh, you could imagine your daughter marrying him when he comes in the room.” There was always that kind of sensibility around him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you think that’s the part with Mamdani? He’s got a little bit of that Obama-esque thing going for him, for sure.
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, he— look, he won over your guy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, you’re talking about Cuomo or you’re talking about Sleepy?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m talking about Donald Trump.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, he won him over. He went to the White House. Tell me you don’t love the fact that you’re saying “my guy,” that my guy said, “Just tell him how you feel.” Tell me you don’t respect that.
MEHDI HASAN: That was an amazing moment.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me you don’t respect that.
MEHDI HASAN: I respect Mamdani for pulling it off.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But do you respect that Trump’s like, “Just tell him you don’t like it?”
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t respect it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You can’t say that.
MEHDI HASAN: I swear to God I don’t respect it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Dude, you know you respect the fact that—
MEHDI HASAN: I studied Donald Trump, unfortunately, through no choice of my own for 12 years. I moved here months before he came down that golden escalator.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You respected that.
MEHDI HASAN: I do not respect Donald Trump. But I watched that clip and I genuinely— I’m someone who you could ask me about Trump, I could talk about Trump all day long. I know everything about Trump. That moment still is— he looks at Mamdani the way I’ve never seen him look at anyone. I’ve never seen him look at Melania the way he looks at Zohran Mamdani, right? In love, just in awe. He goes on Sid Rosenberg’s radio show. You say that he’s a jihadist, Mr. President, he hates you. Now he’s a good guy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s at the State of the Union. Doesn’t get you to say—
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t understand why, but can you tell me why?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, I think he respects talent, but honestly, game recognizes game. No, it’s— look, you’re here. I like your talent and I watch and I see what you do. Listen, we may not agree on, you know, 50% of it. Most other people— but no, he respects talent and he’s got it.
MEHDI HASAN: Fawning over people? Trump doesn’t fawn over people.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: To bring the guy over— Kim— he’s done it with a few different people.
MEHDI HASAN: Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, Zohran Mamdani.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Those are my three. What does that say about your Mamdani? You got to be careful with that. That’s why I don’t understand.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s why I don’t understand.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Be careful what you’re doing.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s why I don’t understand.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I genuinely— “Mediaset compares Mamdani to Putin and Kim Jong-un.” Don’t do that. Out of context. This is why no one likes right-wing media. Just say you like the fact that they got along.
MEHDI HASAN: I do like the fact they got along.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I do as well.
MEHDI HASAN: Because Zohran Mamdani, the second time he went to New York— he’s so smart. He knows how Trump is very easily won over. He takes a front page of a newspaper, right? He takes a fake newspaper front page. Why have people not thought of this before? With “Trump saving New York,” gives it to Trump, and then he goes, “Can you free this Palestinian student who ICE just picked up?” By that afternoon, Trump has freed that student, right? That is a mayor who knows how to get results and win over Trump without giving up his own self-respect, without fawning over him like I think Wes Moore was in one clip where they used it against him, where he was very, very friendly.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Will you give any credit for the fact that by the afternoon, the most powerful man in the world gave him what he asked for?
MEHDI HASAN: No.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You won’t give—
MEHDI HASAN: I’ll tell you why. Can I tell you why?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When is your birthday?
MEHDI HASAN: Let me tell you why.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: July 10th, ’79? You are this stubborn?
MEHDI HASAN: Why, you’ve done your homework. I’ll tell you why I don’t respect it, because I’m glad Zohran Mamdani did it. But what does it say about our leader, the president of the United States, the commander in chief, the self-proclaimed leader of the free world, that it’s so easy to play this guy?
World leaders have been doing it for years. This is the problem with him. It’s so easy to manipulate him. He’s so easy to be won over. And I’m glad when my guy’s doing it for a good cause, but people do it for bad causes too. I’m sure we’re going to talk about Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu did it to get him into a war with Iran. That’s my problem.
You know, when Trump first went to Saudi Arabia after he got elected in 2017, there was a story about how when he drove from the airport to the embassy or hotel, wherever he was staying, the Saudis— this is in 2017, remember his first trip as president was to Saudi Arabia— the Saudis put up on billboards his tweets. Can you imagine that? How smart that is? That Trump is driving along and he’s seeing his own quotes? Like, these people know how to play him. They know how to suck up to him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Kim Jong-un— Good quotes or his bad quotes?
MEHDI HASAN: No, good. They’re praising him, right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: All right.
MEHDI HASAN: Every foreign leader knows how you can suck up to Donald Trump. You praise him, and now in the second term, you give him money. You can now bribe the president of the United States.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So do you think there’s an element— you’ve never been in sales before, but you’re a businessman now.
MEHDI HASAN: Right? Yeah, I’m selling. I have to—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re now selling? Do that stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: And that’s—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Subscribe to Zeteo. Join the capitalist. Subscribe to Zeteo. So happy.
MEHDI HASAN: All the cameras. Zeteo.com.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, respectfully, you leave mainstream, you’re at MSNBC. I think you’re the number one guy for them with the eyeballs you guys are getting. I don’t know.
MEHDI HASAN: Young people online, for sure.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: For young people online, you’re number one. So I don’t know what the story is, what happened there. We’ve read a lot of different stories. They were giving you another job, you chose to leave, you do independent, and then independently you have what, $3.5 million on recurring revenue? 12 months later. Yeah, 12 months later. That’s amazing to be able to do that. And then today, being a business guy, so it’s great to have—
MEHDI HASAN: And I’ve never run anything in my life, so I was very worried.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So maybe that PPE degree you got in economics, that capitalist was inside of you and we brought it out. So that’s great. Okay, welcome to the club of capitalists. It’s great to have you with us.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m a socialist slash capitalist, a multi-millionaire socialist, which is great. Nothing wrong with that. Bernie’s a millionaire.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.
Trump, Netanyahu, and the Lebanon Escalation
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But let’s go to the part about— you brought up Trump and Bibi. So Axios brings out the story. At this point, you’ve seen it.
So President Trump lashed out at Israel over Israel’s escalation in Lebanon in an expletive-laden call on Monday. Two U.S. officials and a third source briefed on the call told Axios. Why it matters: Early on Monday, Iran threatened to abandon negotiations with the U.S. over Israel’s actions in Lebanon. On the call, Trump called Netanyahu crazy and accused him of ingratitude, according to two of the sources. He also put the brakes on Israel’s plan to strike Beirut.
Behind the scenes, one U.S. official told Bibi that following through on his threat to bomb the Lebanese capital would further isolate Israel from around the world, two of the sources said. Trump claimed he’d helped keep Netanyahu out of jail. He said, “If it wasn’t for me, you’d be in jail right there. You’re f*ing crazy. You’d be in prison if it weren’t for me. I’m saving your ass. Everybody hates you. Everybody hates Israel because of this.”
Do you think this call happened?
MEHDI HASAN: The call definitely happened, but both sides are spinning it in their own ways, and they’re spinning it with the classic people. So just background on this, this is an Axios piece. The author of this piece is Barak Ravid, who is an award-winning journalist, co-authored by Mark Caputo, former colleague of mine at NBC News. But Barak Ravid is famous, or should I say now infamous in media circles, for being the guy who the White House always goes to to leak stuff about conversations with Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is this the guy that leaked that Biden got upset?
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, same. This is the same. So he did both. He’s bipartisan. Whether you’re Joe Biden or— Well, it’s not about being fair. The point is that whoever’s in the White House, they know that this is the guy who does the stories about the split between Israel and America. So we’ve had about a dozen, two dozen of these stories over the last three years. Is this the guy you trust? Unfortunately, no.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Now, it’s not that I—
Media Credibility and the Trump-Netanyahu Relationship
MEHDI HASAN: It’s not that I don’t trust him. I’m not saying he’s making stuff up, but I am saying he’s clearly become a useful vessel for information from the White House that they want to get out. They know if you’re Joe Biden or you’re Donald Trump, you know that if you want to get out that you’re pissed at Netanyahu, Barak Ravid is the guy you go to.
Now, on the other side, you have Amit Segal, who is one of Israel’s most famous journalists, very close to Benjamin Netanyahu. Channel 12, I think, is his network. This guy is now reporting today, the day we’re talking, that actually the Israeli side is saying, “No, no, Trump never swore at Netanyahu, never mentioned jail or prison, and they disagreed about how to handle Hezbollah in Lebanon.”
So the question then becomes, for those of us who were not in the room, who do you believe? Serial liar Donald Trump or serial liar Benjamin Netanyahu? Journalists who act as vessels for leaders on both sides? It’s very hard. This is why people have a real issue with mainstream media right now. Because what do you do in a situation like this where both sides are spinning furiously?
And I can believe either version. I can believe that Trump told him, “You’re f*ing crazy.” Wouldn’t put that past Donald Trump. I can also believe that they lied to make Trump sound stronger than he is and that I was telling the truth.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know. Okay, so how do they typically— how do they typically get the credibility? Because anybody can say this was said. So can you go back to the article when it says two sources were there? What is the— you’re in this world. Is there a system or a standard to be able to— because this is a big deal.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, it’s a big deal. I mean, look, all the traditional rules of political journalism went out the window when Donald Trump came along. My colleague Swin Subsang reports on the White House for Zeteo. He has very good contacts. And he tells me some of the crazy stories he gets from behind the scenes in terms of people trying to screw each other over in the Trump administration. There’s a very unique dynamic. It’s been referred to as a Reservoir Dogs dynamic, where everyone’s got a gun to each other’s head at the same time. So they’re all trying to screw each other.
That’s another issue — are two of the sources people who are allied with each other? Are they from different wings of the White House? With this Iran war, there are different elements in this administration. Some people want the war done, finished. Some people want it to keep going. So there’s different pressures on—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is not a 100%, 80% story.
MEHDI HASAN: No. So there’s different people looking for different agendas to try and end the war or escalate.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Give me how this makes Trump look good. How does it make you look bad? Who’s winning with the story? Who’s not?
Who Benefits from the Leaked Story?
MEHDI HASAN: You know the MAGA base better than me. Many of them, your viewers, many people in the MAGA base — not as many as people suggest. My good friend Cenk Uygur, I know you’ve had on the show, he thinks there’s a big split in MAGA. I’m less of that view. I look at the polls, 80% of MAGA still loves Trump, 70% love this war. But there is a growing minority who don’t like what’s going on with the foreign wars, with the betrayal of antiwar promises. And a lot of them see Donald Trump as being Netanyahu’s b.
And this would help Donald Trump say, “Look, I’m telling Benjamin Netanyahu, f you, you’re fing crazy. I saved you from prison. I’m the dominant partner in this relationship.”
And by the way, this is not just a Trump issue. Every American president who’s dealt with Netanyahu has come out getting screwed over. Joe Biden got completely screwed over. He gave his entire presidency to save Netanyahu. Look at him today, destroyed. Bill Clinton in the ’90s came out of a conversation with Netanyahu. You know what he said to his team? He said, “Who’s the f*ing superpower here?” He was so pissed that he got talked down to by Benjamin Netanyahu.
So American presidents have been dealing with Bibi for many years, and they’ve always tried to assert their dominance. And many of them have failed to do so. So I think for Donald Trump, it’s good if people believe it. The problem is those of us who know the Axios reporting on this, we’re very, very skeptical.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If you’re Trump’s advisor, which you’re not, but let’s just say if you were Trump’s advisor and Trump hears you and he says, “Screw this guy, that call did happen, that’s exactly what I told him.” What does he need to do publicly for even a guy like you to say, “S*, this happened”?
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a great question because Donald Trump’s word means nothing to me. I’ve been documenting his lies for many years. No one’s told more lies than Donald Trump in the public sphere. So actions matter more than words. Same issue with Biden. His people would leak, “Biden’s very upset with Netanyahu.” Okay, but what the f* are you doing about it? Many of us frustrated with the genocide would say the same question now. What are you going to do about it?
Donald Trump has given Netanyahu everything he wanted. Even if this conversation is true, he’s saying “I saved you from prison” in the sense that he demanded the Israeli president—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did he? Don’t you think he did though?
MEHDI HASAN: In many ways he did, because every time this war continues, Netanyahu avoids trial. Every time there’s escalation in the war, he doesn’t have to go back to court. And Trump has publicly called on Herzog, the president, to pardon him, which he hasn’t done yet, but I’m sure he’s feeling the pressure from Trump publicly calling him out.
Trump’s Record on Gaza and the Arab American Vote
So he has helped Netanyahu. But worse than that, you look at what’s happening in Gaza. He’s given Netanyahu everything he wanted. And this really bothers me because in 2024, I spent a lot of time pointing out to people on my side — leftists, Muslims, Arab Americans, people in Dearborn, Michigan who welcomed Trump — and I said to them, “You’re going to get screwed over by this guy.” No, no, no, he’s more anti-war than Kamala and Joe. This is what I was told by Arab Americans who voted for Trump. “He will be the anti-war president.” Stephen Miller said he won’t send our boys to war. Trump said, remember what he said? He goes, “Liz Cheney will go to war with Kamala and kill Muslims. I won’t.” They all believed that. Then he bombed 6 or 7 countries last year. Now he’s in a war with Iran.
In Gaza, he had this ceasefire at the beginning that people were very happy about, but since then he’s allowed Netanyahu to do whatever he wants. And earlier this week, Netanyahu went on camera and he said, “We now control 60% of Gaza and I’m going to take 70% of Gaza.” Even Biden, Harris, Blinken — none of them said that would be possible. Trump has basically given Netanyahu carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the Gaza Strip.
So the answer to your question is, what does he have to do to prove he’s in control?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: A guy like you? It’s impossible to win a guy like you.
MEHDI HASAN: I will give credit. I’ll say it now.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If what?
MEHDI HASAN: If he manages to get Netanyahu out of Lebanon and out of Gaza, which he won’t. But that’s what I would want to see, because that’s what’s happened on his watch. On his watch, Netanyahu has taken more territory in both those places.
Prove to me that you actually care about Middle East peace. Prove to me that you have control over Netanyahu and American weapons and get him to pull out. Because right now Greater Israel is happening in front of our eyes. Netanyahu is doing the project that far-right Israelis have always wanted. He’s taking Lebanon, southern Lebanon. He’s taking Gaza. Who knows what’s coming next? If you embolden the guy, what is the lesson of the last 3 years? There’s impunity. You can do whatever the eff you want and America will never stop you.
Netanyahu’s Vision vs. Israel’s Vision
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, do me a favor. Differentiate between what Bibi’s vision is and what Israel’s vision is. For instance, there’s a difference between what America’s vision is — to be the greatest country in the world — versus what AOC’s vision would be if she became president versus Trump. So what do you think is Bibi’s vision versus Israel’s vision?
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a great question. And I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. We do this thing in the US, especially on the liberal side, where we say, “Look, we’re against the Netanyahu government. We’re not against Israel or the Israeli people.” The problem is the Israeli people have made it very clear over the last 3 years that they’re totally behind all these wars. There’s been no real anti-war movement in Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: There’s a little bit. It’s not a big number.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s tiny. You look at the polling, 80% of Israelis support every military operation blindly. You look at the polling, some of it’s horrific. Like 80% of Israelis support removing Palestinians from Gaza. And another small majority support ethnically cleansing them from Israel itself — Palestinian citizens of Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What percentage was this one?
MEHDI HASAN: So I think it’s 80% say they’re fine with getting them out of Gaza, forcibly. And there’s another majority or big plurality of Israelis who are Israeli Jews who say even Palestinians in Israel should ultimately emigrate.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: West Bank and some of that?
MEHDI HASAN: No, Israel proper within the Green Line. One-fifth of the population of Israel is Palestinian citizens of Israel. The polling is horrific. There was a poll done last year by Penn State, I think it was, where almost half of Israelis said that when we capture a town in Gaza, we should treat it like the Bible and Jericho — we should kill all the inhabitants, all the men. This kind of crazy— So, okay, all these polls, you take them with a pinch of salt, I get it.
But anyone you speak to in Israel who’s a serious commentator on Israeli politics will tell you that over the last 5 to 10 years, Israeli society has moved to the right, to the far right, in a way that American society has not. Donald Trump is polling in the 30s right now. Even at his peak, he got 49.8% of the vote in the last election. He’s never had a majority. In Israel, the right-wing parties, the far-right parties are dominant right now. Maybe in the ’90s, early ’90s, there was a peace camp, there was Oslo, all this stuff. That’s gone now. You can argue about why it’s gone.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How is that possible? How is it that in Israel, the guy is being that aggressive and his support is getting higher?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t think his personal support is getting higher. We’ll see what happens in these elections.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Because you said 80%.
MEHDI HASAN: The war, right? This is what I’m saying. This is why I’m saying focus on Netanyahu — it’s a very good cop-out. Even Bernie Sanders, who I’m a big fan of, he often says Netanyahu, Netanyahu, Netanyahu. A lot of Palestinians say, “Bernie, it’s not Netanyahu, it’s Israel. It’s the Israeli political establishment.”
So if you swap out Netanyahu tomorrow with Naftali Bennett, who’s an opposition leader, former prime minister — I interviewed him once — Naftali Bennett is also on the right, also likes war, has threatened Turkey, has threatened Lebanon. You’ve got another opposition leader, Avigdor Lieberman, former defense minister. You know what he said this week? “Flatten the suburbs of Beirut, we should be going in and not listen to Trump.” So the opposition in Israel are equally hawkish, right-wing. So this idea that it’s all about Netanyahu — it’s a myth, I’m sorry to say.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay.
MEHDI HASAN: So you’re saying the two are the same is what you’re saying, on issues of war and peace? Yes. I’m sure in some domestic politics — tax rates, the smaller stuff — domestically within Israel, I’m sure they differ. But when it comes down to the region, Israel’s role in the region—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me what the vision is. What do you think Israel’s vision is?
Israel’s Regional Ambitions and the Gulf States
MEHDI HASAN: There’s a best case scenario and there’s a worst case scenario. The best case scenario is that they have this idea of we must be in a state of permanent war footing, right? I think there’s a phrase for it, I forget the name, combat between the conflicts. There’s some military doctrine that says even when we’re not at war, we carry on doing preemptive strikes, we carry on doing cyber warfare, we carry on doing assassinations so that Israel remains the regional hegemon. We keep our superiority, our military edge, we let everyone know in the region who’s boss, even when we’re not in a formal state of war.
That’s the best case scenario, that this is just a security doctrine that says we will bomb and invade whoever we like, just to remain top dog in the region. That’s best-case scenario. Worst-case scenario is it’s ideological, that these are fanatical messianic people who believe that all of the territory is theirs, given to them by the Bible.
I interviewed Naftali Bennett in 2017, nearly a decade ago, for Al Jazeera. He was education minister at the time. I never forget this interview. I said to him, we were talking about peace treaties and two-state solution, and he said, “The Bible says it’s ours.” I’d never heard someone say that bluntly to my face. I can’t imagine Ilhan Omar going on TV and saying, “The Quran says this,” right? This guy’s openly saying, “The Bible says this.” The Bible says the land is ours. Where do you go with that? There’s no debate after that, right? That’s just a kind of religious, ethnic nationalist, messianic vision.
So Benjamin Netanyahu, even though he’s not a religious man, has signed off on a greater Israel. He was asked about whether he believes it, he said absolutely. The opposition leader, Yair Lapid, who’s a kind of centrist, supposedly a liberal, he was asked after the Mike Huckabee, Tucker Carlson interview, he said, do you agree with Mike Huckabee that all of the territories from the Bible, it’s all yours? He said, “Yeah, our borders are biblical.” That’s what the opposition leader said. Forget the right-wingers Smotrich and Ben-Gvir.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you think is the likelihood their vision becomes a reality?
MEHDI HASAN: Right now, more likely than not, because the United States of America has allowed Israel to get away with a genocide.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How long? I mean, long-term, the—
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, long-term, no. Long-term, it’s perpetual war for perpetual peace.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And by the way, deep down inside, do you really think Trump wants this war to continue?
MEHDI HASAN: No. Trump doesn’t like long wars. He likes short wars. That’s why he’s been humiliated by Iran, because he thought this would be over in a few days.
Iran’s Show of Strength
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, nobody thought Iran was going to be able to — not nobody. A lot of people on his camp, when they sat there and talked about it, it is a very fair argument to say that — no, let me make my point on what I’m saying. It is a very fair argument to say that unlike Venezuela, yeah, which we went and we got Maduro and we’re out, most likely Cuba is going to be the same way as Venezuela, probably even easier when they go through and get it.
MEHDI HASAN: Sure.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Iran showed up strength to the world.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And you got to give them credit no matter what, no matter what anybody says, conservative or on the left.
MEHDI HASAN: You can give them credit militarily, obviously not politically. But Trump — I don’t think we can defend him with “nobody knew this.” He did this line recently, “Nobody knew they were going to hit the Gulf states.” We all knew they were going to hit the Gulf states. They’ve been saying this for years.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That Iran was going to hit the Gulf states.
MEHDI HASAN: Iran was going to hit the Gulf states. That’s been their doctrine for years.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think that unified the Gulf states even more?
MEHDI HASAN: No, I think we’ve wrecked our long-term relationship with the Gulf states.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me why.
MEHDI HASAN: I think in private all of these Gulf states — in public they’ll say what they’ve got to say, but in private they know the US security umbrella does not extend to them anymore. They know that even if they give Donald Trump a $400 million plane, even if they put half a billion dollars in his crypto business, Israel will always take precedence over them.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think the Gulf states prefer Iran to be led by IRGC? Or, you know, the story we saw recently with Pezeshkian, who’s a moderate, stepping down because he’s like, “Everything’s being run by—” Who do you think the Gulf states would rather have?
MEHDI HASAN: I think the Gulf states are not a monolith, first of all, Patrick, because the UAE is very different to Qatar and Kuwait, right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But they’re neighbors.
MEHDI HASAN: They’re neighbors, but they have different foreign policy. I understand. The UAE is an outlier. The UAE is very hawkish, very pro-Israel, very pro-America, very anti-Iran, which is kind of crazy because, you know, the US and Israel move on with their lives. The UAE is exposed to Iran for the rest of their lives.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Isn’t UAE succeeding the most out of most of the Gulf states?
MEHDI HASAN: Are they?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Financially? Are they?
MEHDI HASAN: How many businesses have cleared out? Tourism has fallen. I mean, huge industry based on tourism.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: For the time.
MEHDI HASAN: For the time. You think people are going to go back? I think my thing is—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think so.
MEHDI HASAN: I think that their image has been permanently destroyed. I don’t think you could put it back in the bottle. They had this image, especially to kind of white Westerners, as this business, tourist, even residential utopia. You go there, there’s no crime, you chill out, everything’s cheaper, et cetera, et cetera. I think that’s gone now. Once Iran has done this, I think they’ve destroyed that image.
Now, if you’re Amazon or you’re Chase Bank, you’re going to go back into Dubai, Abu Dhabi, knowing that Iran can then do this again at any time they want? As long as Iran is still run by the same government, I don’t think these Gulf states get that image back. And I think the Qataris understand that, even the Saudis understand that. They want a region — I think privately, and I may be wrong, and the few people in the Gulf I speak to say this to me — they recognize that Israel is the real problem in the region. They may not say so publicly, some of them have signed up to the Abraham Accords like Bahrain, UAE, etc., but I think they understand that Israel is the destabilizing force in the region.
It’s Israel that bombed 6 countries in the Middle East last year, it wasn’t Iran that did that. It’s Israel that went to war now and brought the United States into this conflict and led to Iran bombing Kuwait, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE. And I think that is the situation we’re in. I think you’re going to see these Gulf states, if they’re smart, making overtures to the Chinese and to the Russians in future years. They have to kind of diversify who they rely on.
Giving Credit Where It’s Due
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know, maybe it’s me being a Syrian, maybe it’s me being Armenian, maybe the fact that I lived in Iran could be the reason for this. But nobody sells Israel as this incredibly powerful organization and brains than those who hate Israel. All they talk about is how powerful Israel is. I don’t think there’s anybody that’s the Don King promoting how smart, intellectual, brilliant Israel is than those who cannot stand Israel.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not one of those.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But if — okay, so if—
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, let me just go through the list. I’m not somebody who said Iran would roll over. I said Iran would make Iraq look like—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not that, but I’m talking about right now.
MEHDI HASAN: I warned that Iran and America would not be able to destroy Iran in the way they thought they could destroy Iran. It was insane. It was hubris to think they could do that. I’ve been saying that for 15 years. I’ve been saying it since Iraq, 2003, when I was a 23-year-old marching against that war. When Bush was thinking about Iran, I was saying—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you afraid of Israel?
MEHDI HASAN: Am I afraid of—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you afraid of Israel?
MEHDI HASAN: What do you mean?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you afraid of Israel’s aspirations?
MEHDI HASAN: Oh yeah, but aspirations are different, right? Can they pull it off? I agreed with you that just because they have this messianic vision doesn’t mean they’re going to win. Yeah, I mean, to me it’s like, okay, they didn’t win in Gaza, bro. I said in 2023, this whole plan — when people like yourself and others were saying Israel has a right to self-defense, destroy Hamas — you can’t. There is no military solution to your problem.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah. You know what it is for me? “Oh, don’t talk to Mehdi because Mehdi is going to do this.” No, I want to talk to Mehdi. “No, I’m telling you, be careful.” No, I want to talk to Mehdi. “Oh, don’t talk to Bibi because—” No, I want to talk to him. I wish we had an hour and a half to talk. “No, don’t talk to Nick. No, don’t talk to this guy.” I want to talk to him. I don’t sit there and think, my God, everything — that they’re so powerful, they’re going to control America, they do this, they do that. I mean, you kind of given them too much credit.
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, you’re mixing different things together though. One thing is militarily, can they win on battlefields? No, not always. Hezbollah defeated them in 2000 famously. That was the first time they were defeated by an Arab force on a battlefield when they withdrew from southern Lebanon. They’re back now. We were told Hezbollah was done. Do you remember a couple years ago, the pagers and the assassination of Nasrallah? “They’re done. It was a paper tiger.” They just killed 30 Israeli soldiers in the last few weeks, right? They’ve injured hundreds more. Who knows what the real numbers are. So clearly they’re not done for. Hamas is still around, and the Iranians still have, what, 70% of their missile stock according to US intelligence. So the idea that these were all paper tigers was bullshit.
That’s a different argument. I’m not a military expert. I’m not going to sit here and adjudicate who has the strength in the field. Politically, though, in this country — does Israel still have power? Sure. They still have politicians who support them. They still have lobby groups that advocate for them.
Qatar’s Influence vs. Israel’s Lobby
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So does Qatar.
MEHDI HASAN: No, not on the level of Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Come on. Okay, let me ask you a question. If you had $5 billion—
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: To win over influence in people in America politically—
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And inject your way of thinking—
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Would you put that money to buy over congressmen and senators, or would you put that money into winning over kids? Where would you put your money? Both?
MEHDI HASAN: No, no.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Either way. Okay, then diversify. Seriously, use it as a mutual fund. You got $5 billion. How much you put in one? How much you put in the other one? Honestly. I don’t know, but I want you to think about it.
MEHDI HASAN: 50/50. I think they’re both important.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think—
MEHDI HASAN: When you say young people, you mean like TikTok?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Universities. TikTok, social, give money to universities, give money to places to get the kids influenced. Where would you put the money?
The Disconnect Between Public Opinion and Congressional Policy
MEHDI HASAN: But let me take your example a step further. Okay, let’s say I put it all in students, I win over young people. That’s already happened. Have you seen the polling? The young people hate Israel. I know, but does it translate into policy? No, because the Congress still controls the purse strings.
So I’ll give you one example. 8% of Democrats support Israel’s war in Gaza. 8%, according to a poll last year. In Congress, it’s the other way around. It’s like 80% of Democrats support Israel, only 8 or 10% are voting against weapons or genocide. I’m ballpark figures here.
So what’s the disconnect? The disconnect is we have a Congress that doesn’t represent the public on either side of the divide. I don’t think the Republican Party fully represents its base, but more so, the Democratic Party certainly doesn’t represent its base on Israel. The leadership — you look at these primaries, we’re sitting on a day where there’s going to be a bunch of primaries.
So my big point here is, yes, it’s great that young people have been won over. It’s great that everyone under the age of 50 in the United States of America, whether Republican or Democrat, does not want more weapons going to Israel. That’s the latest polling. Under the age of 50, everyone.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That makes sense to me.
MEHDI HASAN: Right? But Congress does. So the disconnect — this is why we have such a crisis of democracy. This is why Israel matters so much in our political system. It’s not just a foreign policy issue. It’s an issue of our democracy where we have members of Congress and a president who does not follow American will, does not follow the will of the voters.
And so to answer your question, yeah, you do need to spend money lobbying Congress because ultimately they’re the ones voting on weapons. They’re the ones voting on aid. They’re the ones voting to censor our speech, saying anti-Zionism is antisemitism. All of that stuff is coming out of Congress.
And people say, oh, Qatar and this. I just gave you an example. The Qataris gave him a $400 million plane. The Emiratis gave him half a billion dollars for his crypto fund. The Saudis have sponsored multiple multimillion-dollar golf tournaments at his properties, hotels. Did it come in useful? When it came down to it, he picked Israel. He picked Miriam Adelson, he picked Benjamin Netanyahu, he picked AIPAC, he picked Marco Rubio —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know about —
MEHDI HASAN: He picked all these people. What do you mean? We see with our eyes.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know about that. Listen, let me ask you this. Do you think — and by the way, you didn’t answer my question, so I want to stay on the money part and then I’m going to go to the next one.
MEHDI HASAN: I did answer. I said I could spend it all on the kids, it doesn’t matter. So ultimately Congress is still more important.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you would put all the money in Congress?
MEHDI HASAN: No, both. I said split.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You would do 50/50?
MEHDI HASAN: 50/50. Win over the people and then win over the people who represent.
Qatar, China, and Dark Money in American Universities
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So where does Qatar put their money? They put $6.5 billion in universities. Where does China put their money? $5.5 billion in universities. What type of influence do you think they got long term? You think long term? Like, you think China thinks short term? You think Qatar thinks short term? You think they’re trying to buy influence long term when they get in front of the kids?
MEHDI HASAN: Do you have evidence? It’s a serious question.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The dollar?
MEHDI HASAN: No, I mean, I’m talking about, do you have evidence that, first of all, what Chinese investment has gone into universities?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You want to pull it up, Rob?
MEHDI HASAN: I know the Qataris are sponsoring. I’ve been to Georgetown Qatar. They spent a lot of money on US universities. But I’m asking about what China has sponsored in universities.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, China’s given donations to —
MEHDI HASAN: The Chinese government sponsors American universities? I did not know.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me pull it up.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m happy to show my ignorance.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, I don’t know where the money is coming from, but I’ll show you here. China has invested an estimated $5.6 — I was short by a billion. Okay, $6.4 billion in American universities over the recent decade, making it one of the largest foreign —
MEHDI HASAN: Hold on, you didn’t read the third — which is what these funds — you think research partnerships with the Chinese is making kids on campus pro-China?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, it’s not what I’m saying. Okay, Mehdi, you’re very smart. You went to Oxford, you got the PPE degree — not the PPP loan, you got the legit PPE degree, right? Do you not think if these schools are getting this type of money, which phone call do you think they’re picking up?
MEHDI HASAN: We know, Patrick, because we just saw what happened the last 3 years. Did Columbia go pro-Israel or pro-Qatar?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But what did Columbia do?
MEHDI HASAN: They went pro-Israel. They silenced all the pro-Palestinian rhetoric.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But what did they do?
MEHDI HASAN: They rolled over for Donald Trump and they rolled over for the Israel lobby.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was the event that happened that got them to get there?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know which event.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why did they do that?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know where you’re going.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, you follow the stories. You tell me — it was 3 universities, right? Columbia was one of them.
MEHDI HASAN: There were a bunch of universities that cracked down on pro-Palestinian dissenters.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why did they do that?
MEHDI HASAN: Multiple reasons. Pressure from politicians who are pro-Israel. Pressure from donors who are pro-Israel. Pressure from activist groups, this whole ridiculous debate where we conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. I remember when I launched —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not with that. Just so you know, like in Florida, when they’re saying you can’t debate and criticize Israel, I’m not part of that camp.
MEHDI HASAN: Not just that. DeSantis is one of the many governors and Republicans who have said that if you’re an American business that engages in BDS, you can’t get contracts with the state. That’s insane that an American business can’t do what it wants.
Israel’s Declining Popularity and the Influence of Money in Politics
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But what I’m trying to tell you is I think the reasonable people are not with that. Short term, some of these things may come and go. Long term, they’re not. I had Randy — what’s his last name — Randy Fein. I had him on and I asked him the question about where he’s at. I think you may have even tweeted something about it when we talked about — I asked him a couple of questions, pointed whether he was pro-America, America first, or Israel first. If you’re in America, I have a problem with you not being America first.
But I want to go back to this. If they give $6 billion, you think they’re dumb that they’re just giving $6 billion to universities? You don’t think they want things in return?
MEHDI HASAN: I think you made that point earlier. There are many lobbies trying to get their way. I’m not disputing that there are many lobbies. In fact, I’m the one who says let’s not treat the Israel lobby as a unique lobby. I always say AIPAC, NRA, big pharma — all of these people. I want to get money out of politics. I’m a Bernie, Elizabeth Warren —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I want to get money out of politics.
MEHDI HASAN: Let’s get rid of Citizens United. Citizens United, Supreme Court decision. Okay, but let me come back to your direct point about influence. I’m not disputing that they’re spending money, they’re lobbying, everyone’s doing it. I’m saying Israel’s winning, and the evidence is what’s happened.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m saying Israel’s losing.
MEHDI HASAN: Not only do I have a kid in college, I have multiple Muslim friends, leftist friends with kids in college. I have kids who’ve been arrested. I have kids who’ve been doxxed. I know kids who have been suspended. I know kids who have been expelled because of their criticism of Israel. I watched a video of Rumeysa Öztürk, a young Turkish student at Tufts, be picked up by 8 ICE agents and detained because she wrote an op-ed in her student paper saying we should divest from Israel. And Marco Rubio had her detained for a year, right? So don’t tell me that Qatar is winning this argument. Qatar is not winning the argument on campus. The last 3 years is a complete denial.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I get your argument, but I would dispute it in the following way. Everybody is trying to win influence. Everybody, they’re spending money. But the question is, whose money is working and who’s not? The part where I go that’s not working is — do you think Israel’s popularity in America has increased or decreased the last 5 years?
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a different argument. That’s because people saw a genocide livestreamed to their phones, right? And you can’t buy your way out of it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s more than that. That’s one of it.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s one of the big issues.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s one of the bigger issues, but it’s more than that. So whatever they did — like even when Charlie Kirk, the letters came out when he was having a conversation with Bibi, and I don’t know if it was the 7 things he wrote, the 6 things. Do you remember that when he wrote a letter?
MEHDI HASAN: I wasn’t a big Charlie Kirk reader, you’ll be shocked to hear.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, well, you would have liked him.
MEHDI HASAN: No, he didn’t like me. He wanted me deported. He called for me to be deported from this country because he’s such a free speech champion.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was his reason for it?
MEHDI HASAN: Because I said something about COVID that he didn’t like. My position on lockdowns, vaccines, whatever it was. He didn’t like it, but instead of debating me on it, he said, “Who’s this guy? He should be deported from the country.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you tell me specifically what it was? Rob, you can pull it up. Now, if you said something crazy on Twitter —
MEHDI HASAN: Hold on, hold on. Even if I said something crazy, the First Amendment doesn’t come with exceptions for crazy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: First Amendment, can you —
MEHDI HASAN: You can also say that, but you’re part of it for threatening people with deportation.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know, you said some crazy stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: Even let’s say I did say something crazy — even if I didn’t say anything crazy, but let’s just say he said that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s his freedom to be crazy.
MEHDI HASAN: Of course it’s his freedom. I’m just saying, even let’s say I did say something crazy. That’s how we got on to Kirk. Why would I agree with the guy who —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, you don’t have —
MEHDI HASAN: He hated Islam and he wanted me deported.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s a different story. And by the way, Rob is fast.
MEHDI HASAN: We need you, Rob.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Charlie — this is speed. Charlie was a phenomenal guy. But let me go back to it.
MEHDI HASAN: We’ll have to agree to disagree on this.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, that’s totally fine. So where was I going with this? We were talking about the influence and then we went to universities. What topic were we on? I brought up Charlie. Rob, do you know where I was going?
MEHDI HASAN: You were talking about Netanyahu and the stuff.
Israel’s Information War and the Battle for Young Minds
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh yeah, when he talked to Netanyahu with the 7 points, and he said to him, “You’re losing the kids. Whatever you’re doing, the propaganda, you’re losing the kids. So it’s not working.”
So if you say the influence of AIPAC or whatever they’re spending their money to win over Congress and all these other guys, guess what happened? I think they gave money to John Cornyn. AIPAC did. He lost. He’s been there for 40-plus years. Paxton won. Yeah. So what happened with that guy winning? He was a guy that was not even supposed to win. He had issues, letters came out with his wife, all this other stuff. Wasn’t a pretty thing. So I don’t know if their influence— don’t get me wrong, when you talk about Miriam, you know, she’s put up some real money there.
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, she’s been very open about it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She’s put up some real money.
MEHDI HASAN: And can I say, I don’t think we’re disagreeing that much. I agree with you. I’m the first to say I’m very happy to see young people switching on this. I never thought there would— a day would come in my lifetime where polls showed that the American public supports Palestine more than Israel, which we’re now seeing from Pew and Gallup. That’s an amazing change in public opinion for people like me.
But what I’m trying to say to you is all of that is valueless, worthless. Why the AIPAC calculation might make sense to AIPAC is, well, who cares what public opinion says? If we can— it is short-term, but if we can control—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But they don’t think long term. No, no, no, no.
MEHDI HASAN: Maybe the Chinese do. The Israelis think short term. No, Israeli—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not talking Israeli. I’m talking about those who wanted to make sure, like, whatever their belief is, whatever your belief is, folks that are not pro-Israel, right?
MEHDI HASAN: And hey, yeah, they’ve not won hearts and minds. We agree on that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh no, no. I think I go to schools and I talk to kids. First thing I ask is, “Who do you watch?” Used to be Charlie Kirk. Who is it now? Da da da. “Really? What’s your position with Israel?” Oh, boom. I mean, it’s like zero to anger towards Israel. So guess what that means? Whatever the propaganda was, correct or not, it worked for those that are anti-Israel. But guess what? They’ve made a lot of progress.
MEHDI HASAN: What’s scary is when the pro-Israel side hear you say that, when they see the numbers of people watching Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes— God help us— when they hear that, they don’t go, “We need to work harder to win hearts and minds.” What they say is, “We need to crack down on democracy and free speech because that’s the only way we stay in power.”
That is why Peter Beinart, my good friend who used to be a hardcore Zionist, now a liberal— Peter makes the point that you’re going to see a lot of Zionist groups in this country allying with the right. Traditionally, American Jewish groups have been pro-Democrats, liberal, but now they’re allying with Trump and MAGA because they see a way of suppressing speech and joining with authoritarian forces because they can’t win the argument fair and square.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think that’s a mistake. It is a mistake, but that’s what they’re doing. I understand that, but what I’m saying to you is I think it’s very important to win over the kids. Very important to win over kids. And when I see China, Qatar putting that kind of money in schools, you know, their long-term thinking is, “Let’s win these kids over and let’s see what happens.” So I don’t think Israel is winning when it comes down to winning over.
Ronald Lauder and Israeli Influence Operations
MEHDI HASAN: Did you see the Jerusalem Post conference in New York this week?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No.
MEHDI HASAN: They hosted a conference that ties in with the Israel Day parade. They had Ronald Lauder— the Estée Lauder guy, the billionaire— giving a speech. His son-in-law is the Federal Reserve guy, Kevin Warsh.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is he Jewish—
MEHDI HASAN: He’s Jewish. Ronald Lauder is a very leading figure in the American Jewish community, big supporter of Israel. He gave a speech at the Jerusalem Post conference, and in that speech he said that Mossad and Shin Bet, the Israeli intelligence— domestic and foreign— should be working hard to get American kids to support Israel. Influence operations. Openly called for it in a speech. There’s a clip doing the rounds. It’s insane, right?
So when you’re talking about this, I’m saying to you, it’s not that they don’t know what’s happening, but their solutions are so batshit crazy. And so authoritarian.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Israel is losing the information war.
MEHDI HASAN: So they get it, they agree with you and me. Yeah, but their solutions are scary as sh. They’re authoritarian.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s not going to work today though.
MEHDI HASAN: I hope it doesn’t work.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know why it’s not going to work today? Are you with MSNBC today?
MEHDI HASAN: No.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, where are you at?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m independent.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What can you talk about?
MEHDI HASAN: Anything I want.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Anything you want. As long as you don’t say something crazy that you get a strike on YouTube.
TikTok, Free Speech, and the Israel-Palestine Debate
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, but that’s the thing, right? Look at TikTok. When Mitt Romney had Antony Blinken on stage, do you remember that famous conversation a couple of years back? And he said— everyone’s like, “Oh, they’re going after TikTok because of China, because of China, because of China.” And Mitt Romney just sits with Blinken and says, “Every time I go on TikTok, you see 6 times, 7 times as many pro-Palestinian posts as pro-Israel posts. We got to do something about that.” Blinken’s nodding.
I’m like, “Mitt, you’re not supposed to say that out loud. You’re supposed to say that in a small filled room.” He said it on stage. Right? He made it clear that the TikTok takeover by the Ellisons and co. was always about Israel more than it was about China.
And that does worry me because you could say, “Oh, well, I wonder today if, God forbid, the genocide restarted today at the level it did in October 2023 after the horrific massacre on October 7th, what would we see on our social media screens today?” I think you’d see much less than you saw in October, November, December of 2023.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So if you— okay, fair. On what could happen there. But to me, I think the independent content creators— Israel wasn’t used to these guys 20 years ago, and this is a very different game. Yeah, very different game. So they were not accustomed to these guys coming on and not needing anybody and just sitting in front of the computer, playing video games and talking. And nowadays you have streamers. Streamers are influencing kids, gamers are influencing kids. How long this is going to last, I don’t know.
MEHDI HASAN: Look what the UK government just did.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Mike Jenkin and Hassan.
MEHDI HASAN: Jenkin and Hassan. So again, that’s the short-term crackdown.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: We can’t win the argument. What was the reasoning, by the way?
MEHDI HASAN: What did they say? Anti-Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But what was the specific thing?
MEHDI HASAN: They didn’t give a specific, as far as I’m aware.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, I mean, UK, you know your country.
MEHDI HASAN: I didn’t see the details. I know that they didn’t say, “Look, ban for criticizing Israel.” I don’t know what the UK government has said.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But they’re saying this. You don’t know if that’s the position.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know the exact. But my point being, this is exactly what we just talked about, which is again, “We can’t debate with Hasan Piker, the streamer, so we just prevent him from coming to speak.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You can do it here though. This is specifically UK.
MEHDI HASAN: But my point is— no, no, but they do it in reverse, right? So with the UK, you pressure the UK government.
Hasan Piker and Provocative Speech
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know about Cenk, but you want to pull up some of the stuff Hasan said? You want to give him feedback on what he said?
MEHDI HASAN: I give him feedback. I know Hasan very well. Have you heard about some of this stuff, dude?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He said some outrageous stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: He knows—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s the guy that said a lot of stuff is going to happen again or something.
MEHDI HASAN: No, what he said— okay, come on, hold on. Can you just pull up the crazy sh he said? No, no, no, hold on, hold on.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not going to defend him, but I want to know what’s—
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not going to defend him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Go ahead.
MEHDI HASAN: Well, I’m going to defend him from falsehoods. I’ve spoken to Hasan very bluntly and said, “You’ve given your opponent—” Yes, in— what is the context of that? Tell me the context. He was talking about American foreign policy and the quote-unquote famous line about “chickens coming home to roost.” It was a very provocative statement. He’s apologized for that, by the way, just to be clear.
But even Robert Kagan— you know Robert Kagan is the big neocon— he came out recently and said, “You know what, 9/11 was a result of our bad foreign policy.” He just said it in a more diplomatic, Atlantic magazine-friendly way.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you’re supporting him saying that, Hasan Piker?
MEHDI HASAN: No, he shouldn’t have said it like that, because “America deserved 9/11” makes it sound like those people dying was worth it. No. But did America bring 9/11 on itself? 100%. Our US foreign policy created Osama bin Laden, created al-Qaeda, created all of these wars in the Middle East, created that jihad in Afghanistan. 110%. That was a blowback from US foreign policy. Every serious scholar who’s looked at that admits that now. We’re coming up to the 25th anniversary of 9/11. Even Robert Kagan is saying—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Rob, can you pull up how many arrests happen in UK versus other countries on social media? I don’t know if you’ve seen this. I’ve seen it a little bit, but when you talk about Piker, what he said— to me, you can say anything you want to say. The only thing I have a problem with is when it comes down to a threat to someone’s life.
MEHDI HASAN: Yes.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Give your opinion. “Hey, I disagree with this guy,” say this, “this guy said that.” But when it gets down to that— and he’s never threatened anyone’s life. When he said “capitalist blood, let them die”— can you pull up that clip?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know that clip.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I need to see the full clip. If Hasan sat right here— I’m 47, you’re 46, I think we’re a year apart. So we’re the same age. So when you sit down with a young guy like that, and we’ve made some major mistakes— I just told you, I talk to Hasan all the time.
MEHDI HASAN: Don’t give your opponent sticks with which to beat. The guy is a nonviolent guy. He doesn’t support war. He just says provocative things.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You have it, Rob, with audio or no? My understanding is that the property owners who have properties there choose just not to rent it at all. Yeah, kill them.
VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Kill those motherfers and murder those motherfers in the street. Let the streets soak in their f*ing red capitalist bloods, dude.
VIDEO CLIP ENDS:
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, that’s a dumb thing to say.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Good looking guy.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a dumb thing to say. Talented guy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why would you say something like that?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m going to text Hasan after this and say, “You screwed me over on the Patrick Bet-David thing,” because I’m not going to defend that. I don’t know what the context for that is. But look, even you said— let’s park Hasan Piker. Cenk Uygur said a lot of things that are very provocative too. Not like that, but about Israel. Yeah. The point is, to come back to my wider point, which is there’s still a way for them to shut down the conversations, to censor speech critical of Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s pretty loud.
MEHDI HASAN: I think it’s everywhere. But now you can’t speak in the UK, is my point.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, that’s— but that’s the argument for UK’s dumb policy.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s not just the UK. You don’t think the US— are you—
Free Speech, Arrests, and the UK vs. US Debate
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Have you not— not a— bro, pull up, pull up.
MEHDI HASAN: Come on, let’s compare. The US is much worse.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Look at this here. Type the number of arrests for hateful messages.
MEHDI HASAN: Marco Rubio locked up students in this country for their speech, for speaking. For a woman, a young woman in a hijab from Turkey wrote an article in a student paper. She said we should divest from Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know the whole story.
MEHDI HASAN: So pull that up, whatever you want. I don’t know the whole story. Judge threw it out. He said it was a chilling free speech in this country. He had her released from prison. Multiple cases. I’m going to give you one.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is she a US citizen?
MEHDI HASAN: No, she’s a Turkish student.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She was a Turkish student here.
MEHDI HASAN: Legal student.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Legal student here and criticized American policy.
MEHDI HASAN: No, she asked— she said she didn’t even criticize the American government. She said, my university, Tufts, “Hey Tufts, can we divest? We should divest from Israel.” Marco Rubio locked her up. This is one right here. F1. The judge threw the case out. He said it was a complete assault on free speech.
In fact, a Reagan judge, Patrick, you don’t have to trust lefties. Let me quote you a Reagan judge, a guy called William Young, appointed by Ronald Reagan. When he looked at the cases of all these students, he said Donald Trump has launched a — quote — this is his words — “full-throated assault on the First Amendment.”
Marco Rubio is deporting people like Mahmoud Khalil, who you may not be a fan of, not because they did any terrorist activity or called for the killing of anyone, but because under some random 1952 immigration law, the Secretary of State has the power to deport anyone he says is undermining U.S. foreign policy through their speech.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can he?
MEHDI HASAN: Well, it’s never been tested at Supreme Court. There’s one judge who adjudicated on this law. You know what her name was? Guess what her name was? Judge Maryanne Barry Trump. Trump’s sister is the only judge to ever look at the 1952 law on its merits, and she said it was unconstitutional, but it then got rejected by another court on procedural grounds.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s never been tested.
MEHDI HASAN: You and I, if I just describe it to you — and I think it’s insane — the Secretary of State should not have dictatorial powers.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know the laws behind it.
MEHDI HASAN: So let’s assume I’m right. Sure. Assume I’m right. You would disagree with the idea that a Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, Marco Rubio, whoever it is, has the power unilaterally to throw out people who have broken no laws because he didn’t like what they said. Surely you as a free speech guy would be opposed.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m a— and by the way, the way you’re making it seem like is you’re quick to forget what happened under Biden.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re quick— I just said Blinken too. I just said Blinken’s name.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How can you say I’m quick to forget Biden? You know how many—
MEHDI HASAN: No, hold on. How can you say I’m quick to forget Biden? I just said Blinken and Rubio.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How many people on YouTube got strikes, videos taken down? What things we couldn’t talk about? We couldn’t criticize anything about vaccines. COVID. You know how many strikes I got?
MEHDI HASAN: You couldn’t criticize anything about vaccines?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I was there.
MEHDI HASAN: People were criticizing vaccines.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Videos were disappearing like this. I can do easy research for you, send a report to you. Videos were disappearing like that. People that were talking, creating content, massive YouTubers were disappearing.
MEHDI HASAN: Hold on, hold on. You’ve just made my point for me. A minute ago you said America is much better than the UK. Now you’re saying America is dictatorial too.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, I’m not saying America is better than UK. When it comes down to arrest, we don’t arrest.
MEHDI HASAN: What it was— Ruben Sostek, I just showed you.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You want me to—
MEHDI HASAN: I can go through the list. Should I go through the list? Mahmoud Khalil.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you really going to— I know these people. UK versus US.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m going to say right now the US is much worse than the UK. Stop it. And actually, by the way, the UK— Stop it. Hold on, hold on. The UK is really bad right now.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When’s the last time somebody knocked on your door and said, “Mehdi, be quiet, you’re talking too much?”
Palestine Action, Repression, and the UK’s Crackdown
MEHDI HASAN: No, the UK is— By the way, I don’t defend the UK. The Labour government in the UK passed a law that criminalized Palestine Action. You heard of this group, Palestine Action?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s a group that went and threw paint on some— broke into a military base and threw paint, and I think they assaulted a police officer, fought with them, I can’t remember what the charges were. But they were classified as a terrorist group alongside ISIS and some far-right white supremacist groups. Insane. There’s no intelligence for this. They rammed it through Parliament, got it voted on, and then they started rounding up people.
I don’t know if you’ve seen the video. Every weekend for the last few months in the UK, people were protesting against the genocide. Little old ladies, a guy in a wheelchair, vicars, priests grabbed by two police officers, arrested. You’re a terrorist because they said “Palestine Action.” You can’t say “Palestine Action.”
So I’m not going to defend the British government. They’re deeply repressive right now. But funnily enough, Elon Musk never talks about cases like that. He always brings up the cases about Tommy Robinson, all of that stuff.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He doesn’t— You’re a big fan of Tommy?
MEHDI HASAN: Oh yeah. And he’s a big fan of mine. But the biggest threat right now, there’s no more repressive law than this law they did. To basically, if you go out and say “Palestine Action,” you say the two words — if I go to the UK tomorrow and say “Palestine Action,” I will be arrested.
The Case of Henry Nowak
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So what do you think about what happened to Henry Nowak?
MEHDI HASAN: Who’s Henry Nowak?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Remind me. You don’t know who Henry Nowak is?
MEHDI HASAN: I will if you remind me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you pull it up, Rob? Henry Nowak — this is the guy in Southampton, England, last year, December 3rd, 2025. An 18-year-old kid is going home, murdered by Vikram Digwa. The video just came out. The Vikram guy stabs Henry Nowak. That’s the problem, media is not even talking about this. Stabs Henry Nowak — cut and stabbed Nowak a total of 5 times with a knife.
When police arrived, Digwa accused Nowak of assault and officers handcuffed Nowak. He died shortly after being handcuffed. The video came out, I think yesterday, Rob, if you want to pull it up, and it showed the guy can’t breathe. He’s having a hard time breathing. He’s telling the cops, “I can’t breathe. I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe.” All of a sudden he dies and they said, “No, you said some racist comments.” Rob, I sent the video to you in the notes if you go to it.
MEHDI HASAN: So, okay, so what’s the point of that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But I’m going to tell you what’s the point of—
MEHDI HASAN: No, no, it’s horrible.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, but because the cops sided with Digwa, they said Digwa told them that he made racist comments. And with the guy saying, “I was stabbed by these guys,” he’s running away, they caught him. The guy had an 8-inch British knife — the typical Sikh ceremonial knife that they have. You know which one I’m talking about?
MEHDI HASAN: Yes.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Which— now he gets stabbed.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t want to ban—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you—
MEHDI HASAN: I did see British politicians say they want to ban it, and I didn’t realize the context. This is the context.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And this is the context. And they said they wanted to ban it. Keir Starmer came out today and said, “No, we’re not going to ban it.” But you know what you can’t have in England? You can’t even have pepper spray. Pepper spray has not been legal since ’68, but they can have that knife. How that makes any sense?
So for me, you and I can cherry-pick stories on both sides to create rage on why this or that, but the stats are the stats. So when you’re saying that story about America and UK, you hear a story like this — where is the rage with this? Where’s the algorithm?
Media Coverage and Narrative Bias
MEHDI HASAN: That’s not even a free speech story. We were talking about free speech. You brought up stats about social media arrests, and I’m saying to you right now in the US, you can be arrested by this government, detained for a year without charge because you said something the government doesn’t like about Israel. By the way, about a foreign country — it’s not even about the American government. You’re not even criticizing the American government, you’re criticizing a foreign government.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m going to go look it up and I’ll give you my response to you personally myself.
MEHDI HASAN: Have them on your show. Have Mohsen Madawi on your show. Have Badr Khan Souri, who’s in court right now, on your show. Georgetown student. These guys were picked up off the streets by unmasked men, unmarked cars.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: These people love America.
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, they love America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know, are they planning on staying here or going back home?
MEHDI HASAN: Mahmoud Khalil is married here, has a kid. He had a kid while he was in prison. Donald Trump, the family values party, the Republican Party, didn’t let this guy be with his wife when she gave birth, didn’t let him hold his baby.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you say about Henry Nowak, what I just showed you?
MEHDI HASAN: I think that’s horrific.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s you—
MEHDI HASAN: You can’t—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think that’s horrific. But, but this—
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know the details, but obviously the police got it wrong.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is the part that kind of— so you represented the media on the left, okay? Rob, can you go back to that story — New York Times — if you search the two different words of George Floyd versus what happened with Nowak? Nowak, you once— you just had it up right now a minute ago.
MEHDI HASAN: Come on, you’re going to do this? No, he’s fine. The media is—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But wait a minute, wait, this is New York Times. Go to the first one.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not a fan of them.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You type in Henry Nowak, how many names? Results: 19. Go to the next one, Rob. George Floyd: 63,97. There is no incentive to tell this story because it doesn’t go with the narrative.
MEHDI HASAN: So I disagree with you. I grew up in the UK. Right-wing media has been telling these stories all my life. All I’ve seen is Black people and Muslim people on the front pages. Have you looked at the front page of the Daily Mail, the Daily Express? What do you mean?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think UK is doing good?
MEHDI HASAN: No, but not for the reasons you think.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why do you think UK is not doing good?
Brexit, Austerity, and the British Economy
MEHDI HASAN: I think economically it’s doing very badly. It had very bad leadership for the last 15 years. I was there. The Conservative government that came in 2010 did an austerity program after the financial crisis. Cameron — David Cameron and George Osborne did an austerity program that basically gutted the British state, gutted our competitiveness, didn’t cut the deficit, actually ruined our fiscal credibility, downgraded our credit rating. Destroyed our growth over the course of a decade, undermined our health service.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You put anything tied to immigration to that?
MEHDI HASAN: No, none. Immigration’s been a boost for the British economy. In fact, cutting immigration’s bad. Look at Brexit. Brexit’s been a disaster for the British economy. Do you know how many people in Britain want to rejoin the EU? A majority. Pull that up. The majority of Britons want to go back into the EU. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think—
MEHDI HASAN: Why do you think Britons want to go back into the EU?
Can Muslims Coexist with the West?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I, you know, you just said Britain’s being destroyed, but have you looked at the crime numbers? What’s going on in UK.
MEHDI HASAN: Crime is very low.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Have you looked at—
MEHDI HASAN: Crime is very low, Patrick. So let me ask you, you know what the crime rate in London is?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you see the tweet?
MEHDI HASAN: You know, I know you’re not a fan of Sadiq Khan. You’re not a fan of my good friend Sadiq Khan, are you?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What did the EU do— you saw the tweet that came out, what he was saying they’re doing, that they want to find a way to get rid of illegal immigrants?
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, you’re jumping around, Patrick. Britain is not in the EU. We’re talking about Britain. You just said Britain’s being destroyed, which is nonsense, and then you said crime rate. Have you looked at the London crime rates?
Last year London had its lowest per capita murder rate since records began, had the lowest volume of homicides for 30 years under Sadiq Khan, third-term mayor who people in America— Elon Musk, Donald Trump— get very worked up about. I don’t know if you guys get worked up about him. Been a very successful mayor, and crime has come down by record numbers, violent crime and murder.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When you’re looking at EU, do you know which country in the EU has the lowest rate?
MEHDI HASAN: Talk about the UK.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But stay with UK. Stay with—
MEHDI HASAN: The UK is not in the EU anymore.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: To me, I’ll put them somewhat together in the same area.
MEHDI HASAN: They left 10 years ago, by the way.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you’re saying immigration coming from all these countries has been a successful project for the EU.
MEHDI HASAN: What’s your definition of success?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Many different ways.
MEHDI HASAN: Economically, the EU desperately needs migrants. Have you seen the age rate? Pull up the demographic. Okay, so it’s a dying continent with a very low birth rate, as Elon Musk likes to point out. So when you think they’ve got no one there to work, to pay taxes, to look after the elderly, to run their health services, etc.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Maybe the one argument I’ll go to, to see what you’ll say about this: do you think the West, when it comes to the West, Muslims can coexist with the West? I’m curious.
MEHDI HASAN: We went from Britain’s being destroyed to London crime to EU to Muslim.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m curious.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, we got to—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me, tell me where you are with this.
MEHDI HASAN: Do you think they can coexist? Do you think I can coexist?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think you can coexist. You’re educated. You’re a worker. You’re now a capitalist. You’re contributing. You’re creating jobs. I would say you’re a net positive.
MEHDI HASAN: Do you not think most Muslims do that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Depending on where they’re coming from, they don’t. Because if their countries did a good job, why would they leave?
MEHDI HASAN: War that we caused?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: War that who caused?
MEHDI HASAN: That we caused.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So they’re leaving because of us?
MEHDI HASAN: You know the big controversy in the UK over the boats, the small boats coming across the channel? Do you know what the top 3 nationalities are in those boats?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me.
MEHDI HASAN: Iran, number 1.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay.
MEHDI HASAN: Afghanistan, number 2. Iraq, number 3. Now, Iran is a current war. Let’s park Iran. But are you telling me we’re not responsible for the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq?
The Iran-Iraq War and Its Economic Consequences
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Come on. When you look at this, let me show you this, right. Can you pull this up? When it comes down to— let me see which one I got here.
MEHDI HASAN: I love Rob bringing up these— no, no, I love it. He brings this up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know you like numbers.
MEHDI HASAN: No, I love it. I love being proved right as well. It’s perfect for my ego.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, no, no, per capita, per capita. When you look at the countries, Rob, I think you got it. Gulf states, how they perform per capita versus some of the other Muslim nations. Look at this one here, because they got oil and gas. You think it’s only oil and gas that’s causing them?
MEHDI HASAN: Did you know what these countries are like?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me ask you, Iran has plenty of oil. How come they’re not in here?
MEHDI HASAN: Maybe Iran’s got oil. Can I answer your question?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But this has been going on for a minute. This is not a one-year thing.
MEHDI HASAN: Can I answer your question? Why do you think Iran’s not doing well economically? Should I go through the list?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re going to say it’s sanctions.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re going to say it’s America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re going to say it’s America’s fault.
MEHDI HASAN: Not just America’s fault, but partly. Hold on, hold on. You left Iran during the Iran-Iraq War, right? Is that—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I left Iran after Khomeini died. 6 weeks after Khomeini died.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, so Iran-Iraq was done by then. 1989. Iran was done. Iran was 1980 to 1988. $600 billion of damage done to Iranian infrastructure, the economy, the cost of that war. That was a war that Saddam Hussein—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, you put it on Saddam?
MEHDI HASAN: Whose fault do you think it is? Who invaded who?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So by the way, hold on, hold on, you don’t at all put that on the IRGC?
MEHDI HASAN: No, I put it on the—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You don’t put it on the Islamic Revolutionary Guard?
MEHDI HASAN: I put it on the country that invades the other country. That’s how the world works. I blame Russia for the Ukraine war.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: They have a hard time getting along with other people.
MEHDI HASAN: Are you pro-Saddam? Iran?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, no, no, no. Why does Iran have a hard time getting along with other people?
MEHDI HASAN: I said there was an Iran-Iraq War. You said, is America to blame? I said yes, we backed Saddam Hussein. Did we not back Saddam Hussein? Did Donald Rumsfeld not fly and hug— Rob can bring up a video with Donald Rumsfeld hugging Saddam Hussein in 1983 in Baghdad. Were we not supporting the Iraqi invasion of Iran that cost Iran a million lives, $600 billion in infrastructure damage? You’re saying that didn’t play any role in Iran’s economic future?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re not answering my question. You understand what I’m saying?
MEHDI HASAN: What I’m—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, but let me ask you.
MEHDI HASAN: You want me to acknowledge?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, but look, let’s give credit to, for instance, when Mondani goes to the White House, you and I both gave credit to both of them for being diplomatic.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, right.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think Iranian leadership with the IRGC is diplomatic?
MEHDI HASAN: No. They have been horrific in their leadership. They’ve given themselves, they’ve given their opponents a stick with which to beat them. So I was a big critic of Ahmadinejad back in the day. He said dumb things.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think Khomeini was good for Iran?
MEHDI HASAN: Do I think Khomeini was good?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think Khomeini was good for Iran?
MEHDI HASAN: No, in hindsight, of course not. If you look at the record—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So then we’re on the same page. What I’m trying to do is—
Shia Islam: Two Schools of Thought
MEHDI HASAN: I’ve said this before. I went on the Piers Morgan Show. Just to be clear, for people who don’t know, I’m Shia, right? I’m a Shia Muslim.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know you’re Shia.
MEHDI HASAN: Which is the majority religion in Iran.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Sure.
MEHDI HASAN: Right? But there are two types of Shias. This is a very crude— I’m trying to explain to your audience. Religiously, theologically, politically, there’s two types of Shias.
There are those who believe in what’s called vilayat-e-faqih, WF. They believed that Khomeini— this was a political theory, a religious, some say a religious theory, pushed by Ayatollah Khomeini that said that the clerics, the ayatollahs, the mullahs, whatever you want to call them, they should rule, power should be with them. That is the model that Iran has followed.
There is another school of thought that comes out of Iraq, mainly out of a city called Najaf, an ayatollah called Sistani who is the leading Shia ayatollah in Iraq today. And they say, no, no, we are all for religion, we’re all, you know, we want everyone to practice Islam, Shia Islam, but we’re not going to rule.
After the Americans toppled Saddam, Ayatollah Sistani did not do a Khomeini. He did not say, “I’m going to become supreme leader of Iraq.” He said, “Have elections, democracy, vote. I’m going to stay in my house and I’m going to give you advice, religious advice, when you need it.”
I follow the Ayatollah Sistani view of the world, crudely put. I don’t follow the Ayatollah Khomeini view of the world. So when you say to me, was he good for Iran as a governmental system? No, I don’t support the governing system of Iran the way it is. But you’re changing the subject. You’re avoiding the— you are. There was an 8-year war. We were talking about Iran.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’ve been there. Trust me, I lived there. I witnessed it. You should entertain the idea of living in a Muslim-majority country, see what it’s like.
MEHDI HASAN: I understand.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I lived there.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re jumping around.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not.
MEHDI HASAN: You were talking about the economy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Iran. I’ll let you finish your thought and then I’ll go back to my question that I had. So go ahead, finish your thought.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m going to finish my thought. It’s a thought that requires a response from you, which is: if there’s an 8-year war that Iraq started and we supported, that cost $600 billion to Iran, that took out a million members of their population, and then was followed by crazy sanctions— are you telling me then that it’s fair to compare that economy with Abu Dhabi? Are you seriously telling me that’s a fair—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you go back to that chart again, Rob, for me? So you just defended Iraq, right? That we backed up Iraq. Yes. That went against Iran.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How come they’re not on the top GDP per capita on this list?
MEHDI HASAN: Do you know what happened to Iraq after the Iran-Iraq War?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, so now you have another reason. It’s America’s fault again.
MEHDI HASAN: Do you study history, Patrick? Do you know what happened in 1991? We did a Gulf— Gulf—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Arabic, the invaded Kuwait— so on one end you’re saying this, on the other— no, it’s because you’re comparing countries.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re showing me a graph comparing countries that have never been bombed, invaded, and occupied with countries that have been bombed, invaded, occupied, and then you say why is the GDP higher in one, not the other? That’s an insane comparison.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why have they made so much progress? They’re Muslim majority. Why have they made so much progress? And by the way, at this point, just so you know, the argument is now not about Muslim.
MEHDI HASAN: I know it’s not.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know, but the argument is why are some winning, some are not?
MEHDI HASAN: And I explained war plays a big role in this.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, maybe a part of it makes sense.
MEHDI HASAN: I just pointed out to you the 3 biggest refugee groups on the boats going into England are Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan. Coincidence? No, those are war-torn countries.
Trump, Israel, and Iran — Debating Responsibility and Foreign Policy
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not disputing that. What I’m trying to tell you is even with that, if you sit here and say every single time everything is America’s fault. What responsibility do they take? Do they take any responsibility that they’re not making the right decision for other people?
MEHDI HASAN: Just to be clear, people can rewind. I don’t know, Rob does screenshots, but people watching on YouTube can rewind. Never did I say it’s all America’s fault. I’ve never said that. Have you read— you said you’ve read my stuff, you’ve seen my stuff. I’m very critical of Muslim-majority countries. I am very critical of the Iranian government. I’m very critical of the Saudi government.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m very critical of the Emirate.
MEHDI HASAN: I do a show for Al Jazeera and I grilled the Qatari foreign minister on that show about the lack of democracy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’ve seen your stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m critical of Arab governments, Muslim governments, Pakistan.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think the Middle East is a safer place with IRGC in charge of running America or somebody like a Pashinyan, more of a moderate?
MEHDI HASAN: Of course I’m more of a moderate. I would like to see— and again, who undermined the moderates in Iran? Sorry, it’s going to be the answer you don’t like.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The United States of America. No, no, I disagree.
MEHDI HASAN: The United States of America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I disagree. I don’t think that’s the case. Israel.
MEHDI HASAN: Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, well, no, no, I don’t— I don’t put out a proxy then. No, but listen to me, you were not expecting my answer.
MEHDI HASAN: No, because I don’t accept this fake split between U.S. and Israel.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But this is not it. But let me tell you what I do, because what I see going on right now is I see Israel in a way— I actually like what’s taking place. Let me explain why I like what’s taking place. A part of what’s going on right now is the world is able to see Bibi’s motive versus Trump’s motive. Like, you remember that one time when Trump and Bibi are on stage speaking and he’s saying, “Yeah, we’re thinking about taking over Gaza and we’re going to build a hotel here.” And Bibi goes like, “Wait, what? You never told me that.” He kind of got— I don’t know if you remember that session or not.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, West Bank.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So part of it for me, I like that this is happening because I prefer this to be in the public’s eye. I prefer for Trump to show, “Hey, listen, if I want to go become a prime minister of Israel, I would do it. You’re there just because of me.” I like him saying that publicly. But to me, who wants IRGC to be gone?
Netanyahu, Trump, and the Iran War Decision
MEHDI HASAN: It’s a couple of things. On the Trump point, I agree it’s better these things happen in public, and there is a weird upside to Trump having such a big mouth and saying crazy sht all the time. There is a pro to that, I get that. But let’s not forget, Patrick, you saw the New York Times big piece where we discovered from Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, that Benjamin Netanyahu went to the Situation Room and made the case to Trump with Mossad joining via Zoom or wherever it was, and he persuaded Trump that this will be a walk in the park, a cakewalk, all of that sht. That happened in private.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Your percentage that that happened?
MEHDI HASAN: That happened in private.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What’s your percentage? Give me a number. 80%?
MEHDI HASAN: 80%.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m 50/50 that that happened.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, you think Trump did it on his own without—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, no. I said I’m 50/50, meaning I believe there’s a 50% chance. But you don’t deny that behind the scenes the Israelis are putting pressure on the US.
MEHDI HASAN: Of course I know that. So then to come back to your broader point.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But I don’t think he’s Bush. I don’t think he’s Obama. I don’t think he’s Biden. I don’t think he’s those guys.
MEHDI HASAN: In many ways he’s worse.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, no. I don’t think he is.
MEHDI HASAN: He doesn’t have any independent views.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, the one thing I know with you, Mehdi, is the fact that no matter what he does, he’s not going to get victory from you. We have to put those two—
MEHDI HASAN: Again, you can go back on YouTube, rewind an hour. I said if he restrains Netanyahu in Gaza, I’m happy with that. Lebanon. You said he won’t.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know he won’t. I understand, but have you ever given him any credit for anything he’s done?
MEHDI HASAN: In the first term, I wrote a piece for The Intercept. I got a lot of sh*t for it because I said credit where credit’s due, he’s going to withdraw from Afghanistan. Remember, he laid out that timeline that Biden then got attacked for following. It was a Trump timeline.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He did it the Biden way.
MEHDI HASAN: Trump would have done it better. Come on, it was always going to be a disaster no matter how you pull out of Afghanistan.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: There were many, many military personnel who said there were better ways to leave.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t agree on that. Can I come back to your wider point?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Forget Trump. I always knew— I introduced him properly at the beginning, big MAGA supporter.
America, Israel, and the Question of Agency
MEHDI HASAN: That’s 2020, 6 years ago. We all grow, evolve, learn from our mistakes. So the broader point about America and Israel, Iran— to go back to your IRGC point, forget Trump for a moment. Let’s just take US foreign policy as a whole. When you say it’s Israel, I don’t accept that. I think this new thing on the right where you say— Tucker Carlson, Joe Kent, all this line— which is like America’s good, it’s bad, bad Israel making good, good America do bad things. I’m not saying you did, but I’m saying others. It’s becoming a very consensual view, which is America’s really good, and then evil Israel comes along and makes good America do bad things.
We need to take agency and responsibility. We are the superpower. And when Israel’s murdering Iranian nuclear scientists or murdering Iranian diplomats who might do a deal with them, we have to take ownership for that. They don’t do that without an American green light. They didn’t kill Khamenei without an American green light. They don’t do sh*t without an American green light. So I don’t buy this idea that Israel is some rogue force, going back to the Barak Ravid point about there being all these splits between the president and the prime minister. 9 times out of 10, Americans are on the same page. 1 time out of 10, they’re on a different page.
So we had moderate presidents in Iran. They got screwed over. Khatami, Rouhani, they got screwed over by Western governments that wouldn’t do a nuclear deal.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Went out and killed the 50 guys— we could have worked together, whatever. They kept— and Trump kept saying, “Everybody we’re negotiating with, they’re killing them.” Who’s “they”?
MEHDI HASAN: Who’s he saying? And you think Israel can do that if Trump wanted them to stop?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Come on. No, no, no. What I’m saying to you is Israel, when they get their intel and they want to take somebody out— you remember the pagers? They got very good intel. They don’t have a problem going and doing what they’re doing. I understand Israel’s motive.
MEHDI HASAN: So do I.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I understand Israel’s motive, but I’m saying they get a green light from the US. I don’t think as much under him as others. I do think they’re an ally for the Middle East. And you’re a business guy now, you’re a capitalist. So one of the things you’ll experience, because you’re a capitalist— nothing wrong, you should be proud of it. You should be. Look at the smile on your face. You’re making more money than ever before.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s a good life. It’s a good life.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you making more money or less money right now?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m making more money.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s good. There’s nothing wrong with it.
MEHDI HASAN: Did I say that? That’s not my definition.
Motives, Negotiations, and Trump as a Dealmaker
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But here’s where I’m going with this. In the last couple of years since you’ve been private, how many opportunities have you had to do deals with people?
MEHDI HASAN: Many.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Many. When you’re on the call, do you know their motives?
MEHDI HASAN: No.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Their motives are typically beneficial to who?
MEHDI HASAN: Themselves.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Themselves. Is that something that you and I would be surprised with?
MEHDI HASAN: No.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why are you here today? Why do I have you on today? Why are you on here today? It’s going to be a good show for us. Why are you on here today? You don’t live down the street. You came— there’s a motive. Yes, both of us have a motive. So what both of us are winning from this exchange that we have. Okay, in that sense, the way they negotiate, then it goes to who’s the better negotiator, then it goes to who gave up more, then it goes to all the other stuff that you got to go through and you got to make adjustments.
MEHDI HASAN: Well, Trump is a horrible negotiator, and as Benjamin Netanyahu said— these are Benjamin Netanyahu’s words— “For 40 years I’ve dreamt of attacking Iran. He’s the only president who would listen to me.” Those are Netanyahu’s words.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m paraphrasing.
MEHDI HASAN: Every president said no.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: In ’87, he would go and take over Karak Island. He said that in ’85. You make it seem like this guy’s not an independent thinker.
MEHDI HASAN: Well, he’s not an independent thinker.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Trump said that in ’85.
MEHDI HASAN: Hold on. He also said none of us knew they would hit the Strait of Hormuz. None of us knew they would hit the Gulf countries, you idiot. Everyone knew this.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You can’t give him credit that he said this 40 years ago.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, I don’t know how he got that one thing consistent.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t know how this one thing he did. I don’t know how he came back and won.
MEHDI HASAN: Patrick, keep asking me to give him credit. The Iran War— you praised them on day one of the Iran War. Would you accept today it’s been an absolute disaster? Donald Trump is not a war leader. He doesn’t understand foreign policy. He doesn’t understand what— he just said this week, “I’m bored.” You know what he said this week? “I’m bored of all this.” Like a child.
TDS, Cult Members, and Giving Credit
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Mehdi, let me tell you what it is. I have a local doctor I want you to go see. He specializes in TDS, and I think you would work very well with him. Over a 6-month period, he’ll be able to get rid of your TDS.
MEHDI HASAN: I have a guy who’s a psychologist and he deals with cult members. And I think you’d do well— you guys who can’t get out of the Trump cult. I asked you, I gave you an opportunity in front of your audience to criticize Trump on Iran.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You can’t do it. I will. Can I tell you, please? The difference between you and I is I will sit there and I’ll give credit and I’ll criticize.
MEHDI HASAN: I’ll give you credit. What should I give him?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I am more supportive of him than you are.
MEHDI HASAN: What should I give?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Because the longer you’re a capitalist, you’re going to like— you’re going to want somebody that’s pro-capitalism.
MEHDI HASAN: The economy is horrific under him. My business is doing badly because of him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s because of the war.
MEHDI HASAN: Who started the war?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He did. I take ownership that he started.
The Debate Intensifies: Imperialism, Expansion, and the Law
MEHDI HASAN: So when you say give him credit, can I finish?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re going to let me— allow me to finish my thought, please. Did you give him credit with Venezuela?
MEHDI HASAN: No, of course not.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Illegal action. So that’s also no.
MEHDI HASAN: He broke international law, American law, the Constitution.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So that’s a no for you as well. He killed a grandmother. Let me ask you a question.
MEHDI HASAN: And he brought this guy to a court case that he might lose.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If they take over Cuba, would that be a victory in your eyes? Are you going to— so give it already criticism up front.
MEHDI HASAN: You think I’m supporting— you want me to come here to Florida and support imperialism. You support imperialism. So you support just invading other countries?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you go back— you go criminal. How the hell do you think America got so big? What do you think they did? It was an expansionist James Polk ideology of let’s go out and buy all these other places.
MEHDI HASAN: Was there international law, the UN Charter, Geneva Conventions at the time?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But you’re sitting here complaining about something like this where you’re living in a country— it’s because of the byproduct of the visionaries previous to us that they made it what it is. Why do you feel so safe here?
MEHDI HASAN: Bizarre argument.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why do you feel so safe here?
MEHDI HASAN: Because we once got Alaska, we should go conquer Cuba.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, that’s not what I’m telling you.
MEHDI HASAN: Sounds like it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If they’re expanding, I don’t mind an expansionist president.
MEHDI HASAN: You like imperialism? How are you different to the IRGC?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t mind an expansionist president.
MEHDI HASAN: How are you different to the IRGC?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Everyone says— Islamic Revolutionary Guard. Everything is above— God tells them what to do and that’s that. Omriqa, death upon America.
MEHDI HASAN: They’re accused of being expansionist, of trying to take over the Middle East. That’s the big allegation that the Gulf states make against Iran. And yet you’re sitting here saying we should take over the Western Hemisphere.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, do you know what I actually say?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not imperialist.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me ask you a question. How many subscribers do you have with your channel right now that are paying on Substack?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not going to say that number.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let’s say it’s 100,000 people. There you go.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s not, sadly.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, but let’s just say 50,000 to 100,000 people. You’re doing well. You’re making good money. Have you taken any viewership from anybody else? Are people watching you that used to watch somebody else on YouTube? What an expansionist you are.
MEHDI HASAN: This is—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What a shameful expansionist capitalist. Maybe this guy’s expanding his YouTube channel, but God forbid anybody else does it.
MEHDI HASAN: I’ve waited an hour 20 minutes for you to say the dumbest thing. With respect, Patrick, that is not an analogy. Every time that is the worst thing, and then you get cornered.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you mean you’re expanding?
MEHDI HASAN: That is the worst.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Analogy.
MEHDI HASAN: Did I go into the New York Times— hold on, let’s be clear. Expanding. Did I walk into the New York Times and abduct the editor-in-chief of the New York Times, put a bag over his head?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you have any employees? Yes. How many of them came volunteer? How many of them did you recruit and hire away from another company?
MEHDI HASAN: How many of them did I get with a gun and a special forces team? You’re making a ridiculous analogy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh my goodness.
MEHDI HASAN: As a business, that’s the same as illegally occupying other people’s land.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What la-la land are you living in? What do you think happened to this world of law? What do you think happened to this?
MEHDI HASAN: You do realize the problem that the MAGA folks have when they say this is you lose any credibility to criticize anyone else. You can’t criticize Iran, then you can’t criticize Hamas.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And I don’t.
MEHDI HASAN: You don’t criticize Hamas?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I don’t criticize. If you’re able to expand.
MEHDI HASAN: So if Hamas goes into Israel, you’re for that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s not about whether I’m for that or not. If you’re able to successfully do it, that’s your vision. I know I have to defend against it. What do you think companies do? How do you think companies work? What do you think companies are supposed to do?
MEHDI HASAN: I think it’s insane. Is this expansion— us going around the world, military, killing people?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why do you think we have military?
MEHDI HASAN: For defense, against what threats?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Against another threat. I’m not saying that.
MEHDI HASAN: You think Cuba’s trying to expand right now? You think Cuba’s trying to expand? Where are they expanding to, Miami? You’ve been living in Miami too long, by the way.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Maybe I think you’ve been drinking too much water. Maybe that’s their fault.
MEHDI HASAN: What’s their fault?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Maybe their ideology, communism, created a poor country and their people want something better.
MEHDI HASAN: But that doesn’t give us the right to go and take over the country.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How do you think all this stuff happened in history?
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, lots of things happen in history that weren’t right.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, but guess what?
MEHDI HASAN: This is 2026, dude.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’ve taken market share from other people. Your viewers were somebody else’s viewers that came to you.
MEHDI HASAN: So just to be clear, you want some kind of law of the jungle where might is right, power?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you think the law is?
MEHDI HASAN: I noticed you don’t answer any question. It’s a very simple question. Yes or no? Do you support the law of the jungle where might is right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you believe that?
MEHDI HASAN: You can’t answer a question with a question. You have to answer the question. Do you support a might is right view where law of the jungle, whoever’s powerful gets to do what they want?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m trying to find out what other law of the land you think we live in. Help me understand.
MEHDI HASAN: We have domestic law, we have international law.
The ChatGPT vs. Claude Analogy
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you use ChatGPT or do you use Claude?
MEHDI HASAN: Probably ChatGPT more.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: ChatGPT more than Claude? Do you know when it first started who had the biggest market share?
MEHDI HASAN: ChatGPT.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Who do you think is killing it right now? Claude’s picking it up. Why?
MEHDI HASAN: Because they invaded another country, kidnapped the president?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Because they produced a better product.
MEHDI HASAN: Did they? What’s the guy’s name? Dario Amodei? The guy who runs Claude. Did he go into Sam Altman’s house in the middle of the night, take Sam Altman and his wife, put bags on their heads and fly them back to his compound and kill a grandmother in the process?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The only difference is that— but war is—
MEHDI HASAN: That is the big difference, Patrick.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I can’t believe you don’t see it. I understand what you’re saying in the argument of that, but the reality of it is—
MEHDI HASAN: A law of the jungle where the might is right? Do you support a world— are you pro— do you support the idea of living in a world where powerful countries should be able to do what they want?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What country— you keep asking questions. Why do you live in America?
MEHDI HASAN: You know what I like about the US?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s the most powerful.
MEHDI HASAN: No, go live in Iran.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, go live in Iraq.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t live here because it’s the most powerful country.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why do you live here?
MEHDI HASAN: Many reasons. One is it’s a country that’s governed by laws, principles, free speech. Yes, I love the First Amendment, right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Constitution.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, I don’t favor presidents and people who say we should just break the law.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I didn’t say break the law. What do you mean?
MEHDI HASAN: Taking over Cuba is breaking the law. UN Charter, that’s the law of the land.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If they come and they try to take over—
MEHDI HASAN: And who’s coming?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Whoever it is. Trump’s already talking about it.
MEHDI HASAN: Rubio’s already talking about it. The Cubans are not taking over anything.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, Cubans are not taking over.
MEHDI HASAN: We are launching a war of aggression like the Nazis. Nuremberg called it— you know what the Nuremberg Tribunal called?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: A war of aggression. I’m assuming—
MEHDI HASAN: Supreme International War Court.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is it fair to say you were against tariffs on day one? Yes. I was for tariffs. Guess what the Supreme Court ruled?
MEHDI HASAN: Against tariffs.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, great. If they go—
MEHDI HASAN: You want to live in a world where Trump says, “F* the Supreme Court.” And that’s what JD Vance has said on the record.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not at all.
MEHDI HASAN: JD Vance said this on the record.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But you just said, “No, I’m not.” Look, let me tell you, you said it, everyone can watch it. Trump’s the president, okay? A few years ago, Biden was the president. In 2028, AOC could be the president, Newsom could be the president, Rubio could be the president, somebody else could be the president, right? Every time the opposing side is the president, the opposing side thinks it’s the end of the world. What ends up happening to America? What ends up happening?
MEHDI HASAN: Bad things.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, not necessarily. Eventually goes back to normalcy.
MEHDI HASAN: And it’s like— look at the Trump first term, and I see half a million people killed from COVID because he couldn’t handle it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you know why though? What protects America the way it does?
MEHDI HASAN: I would argue our laws, Constitution.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I agree.
MEHDI HASAN: And you’re saying you want to throw it all out? No, but have an imperialist nation.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If a leader comes in that is a visionary leader that wants to expand and grow, and he can do it within his terms, and the Supreme Court and law allows it, I don’t mind him doing it.
MEHDI HASAN: First of all, the Supreme Court law doesn’t allow it. Venezuela was unconstitutional. Congress declares war in this country, not the president.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, then if that’s the case— well, we saw that with the 60-day rule with Iran.
MEHDI HASAN: He’s violated that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I understand that, and they’re working around that right now in different ways.
MEHDI HASAN: American law? What about international law?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You—
Mamdani vs. Spencer Pratt, Trump Interviews, and Political Seriousness
MEHDI HASAN: Even if the American Congress votes to attack Cuba, that doesn’t make it legal in international law. You can’t attack other countries. Let me ask you, if, for instance, tomorrow you’ll say 9/11 was just— do you support 9/11? Innocent? Do you support 9/11? Why? Al-Qaeda could do it. They did it. According to your logic, Al-Qaeda had every right to do it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: There’s a difference between me supporting it and then them doing it and then me retaliating to you. Like right now, if you and I were sitting—
MEHDI HASAN: But you don’t think it was illegal?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do I? Of course it’s illegal.
MEHDI HASAN: Why? According to you, it doesn’t matter? No, no, of course it’s illegal. So 9/11 is illegal, but us attacking Cuba is legal?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I would tell you, you never heard me say attacking. If they can go and take it over without attacking and the laws allow it, guess what? I’m for it.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a whole different argument. It’s not the Cuban people voting in a referendum to become the 51st state.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Spin right now, make it seem like I want to go kill people and take stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: You defended Venezuela. We killed people to get him out.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I never said if—
MEHDI HASAN: But by the way, you said give him credit for Venezuela. You did say that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You don’t think that was a good move? No. You don’t think that was a good move?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t believe you. I don’t support regime change. I don’t support assassinating foreign leaders.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You—
MEHDI HASAN: What did George Washington say? “Don’t go abroad looking for monsters to slay.” Was it Adams? I forget. Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you don’t support what he did?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t support the United States government messing with foreign countries the way they did it and killing foreign leaders, even if it has a good outcome. I don’t support it because I support laws and principles.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, I do also support laws and principles, but if you say you support laws and principles, you’re trying to tell me Obama followed everything? No.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re telling me he violated the law in Libya?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Criticized him? Every one of them.
MEHDI HASAN: Because I criticized Obama in 2011 for doing Libya.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know what’s the difference between you and I and them?
MEHDI HASAN: I criticize people on all sides.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You don’t. Yeah, we do. We do it as well. But you know what’s the difference between you and I and them? Go on. What’s the difference?
MEHDI HASAN: You and I and who?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You and I talking, giving our opinions, and Obama and Trump. What’s the difference between you and I and them?
MEHDI HASAN: We’re not politicians.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: They made it into the White House. And so they’re going to be able to do whatever they’re going to do. You and I can talk about it, give our opinions.
MEHDI HASAN: We don’t have an imperial presidency. We shouldn’t have an imperial presidency.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s why we have the freedom of speech of giving our opinions.
MEHDI HASAN: We also have a vision of America which is supposed to be a restrained commander-in-chief. The founders came to— we’re celebrating 250 years of American history. They came to this country, from my old country, the UK, to get away from a mad king, not to recreate a mad king.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, so we can get past this. Maybe the next time we’ll do the podcast, we’ll do it in Cuba or Venezuela just for the sake of enjoying ourselves. Anyways, let me get to the next story with you. By the way, Mamdani and Spencer Pratt. What commonality do you see between the two of them?
Mamdani vs. Spencer Pratt: Social Media, Message Discipline, and Political Substance
MEHDI HASAN: Very little.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Very little.
MEHDI HASAN: Very little.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me why.
MEHDI HASAN: Because I know this is the argument that says all of these candidates who make a lot of noise and do well on social media are similar. But I think people have underestimated what Mamdani is. Mamdani, yes, is charismatic, had a great social media game. I interviewed his team that made his social videos. Great people, smart people. The video he did where he jumped into the water freezing cold to show “freeze the rent,” the video he did for halal— I’m just saying his campaign was brilliant online, no doubt about it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The halal— maybe one of the best.
MEHDI HASAN: One of the best.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, maybe one of the best. And the guy came out of nowhere, 1%. Yeah, I agree.
MEHDI HASAN: But what happened is a lot of Democrats took the wrong lesson from that. They said, “Ah, this guy is so good on social media, we’ve got to hire the same people who did his social media campaigns. We’ve got to do video.” Did you notice after Mamdani won the primary, suddenly you saw all these congressional Democrats’ videos, walking down the same way, same cutaways, same style— and they think that’s how you replicate Mamdani.
They misunderstand Mamdani. Yes, the social media game helped him get his message across, helped him get the youth out, but at the core of Mamdani was a very clear message. And here’s what I’m going to do— I’m going to compare him to Trump right now. Be careful. I’m going to compare him to Trump.
Donald Trump— I ask this question to everyone, I can’t get fired. You’re free, I’m free. 2016, I say this to everyone I talk to about politics. I say this to leftists, I say this to liberals, I say this to Muslims, I say this to non-Muslims— tell me what Donald Trump’s 3 main policies were in 2016.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was it? You tell me.
MEHDI HASAN: What was the slogan? Do you remember what Donald Trump ran on when he first ran? What did he run on?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Get rid of these rapists and all this stuff.
MEHDI HASAN: “Build a wall.” Remember that? That was one of his big lines.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Build a wall is one.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, so we remember all the slogans. Do you remember what Hillary Clinton’s were?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No. I’m for her, and that’s about it. First female president.
MEHDI HASAN: But her own slogan— she had a great, 77-page childcare proposal. I’m sure it’s better than Trump’s, but people don’t campaign like that. And I think what Mamdani did is— even now you ask me, what does Zohran Mamdani run on? Okay: freeze the rents, free buses, free childcare. It was message discipline around a set of policies that people identified with, that helped with this ridiculous affordability crisis, that made him seem like he was in touch.
And I think if Democrats only take away, or people in the media only take away from Mamdani, that “ah, the guy’s slick, he smiles well, Trump loves him, he does great social videos”— I don’t think that’s the best lesson. What’s Pratt’s main policy platform that’s going to get people out for him?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The fires, homelessness.
MEHDI HASAN: Everyone says they want to deal with that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, that’s because that’s—
MEHDI HASAN: The guy is a reality TV star. I’m not a fan of reality TV stars running for president. I wrote a piece saying Oprah should not run for president years ago, although I have said Jon Stewart should run.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And I think Spencer Pratt stands a chance. Yes, he does.
MEHDI HASAN: Because America’s f*ed up right now.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think Spencer Pratt stands a chance?
MEHDI HASAN: Donald Trump is president of the United States twice. I’m never going to rule out anything in this country. I thought Trump wouldn’t win in 2016. That’s how wrong I was in 2016. I don’t do predictions anymore. No, no— in ’24, I said he would win. I said he’s going to win and he’s going to be a fascist.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When did you say he’d win in ’24?
MEHDI HASAN: All of ’24. I spent all of ’24 warning. I said get rid of Biden. I said Kamala needs to change her performance.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think this is the new era? You think that this is the new era of types of people that run for president, which before was generally military backgrounds and all that stuff?
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, I don’t think it’s a good thing. And I wrote this piece when they were thinking about Oprah. Do you remember a few years ago people were pushing Oprah Winfrey’s name? And I wrote a piece for The Intercept saying, come on, no, let’s not go down this road. I do think you need politicians with charisma, and that’s why people think of Hollywood stars. That’s why someone like— I love Jon Stewart. I would love Jon Stewart to run in a primary just to shake things up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’d be fun.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t think he’d be a great president. I think him running would just add to the race. But my biggest problem is, I take politics seriously. To go back to it— I’ve been a political journalist for 25 years.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is your sport.
MEHDI HASAN: I did politics at university, I did politics at high school, I do debate, I take this s* seriously. And it annoys me when— look at Donald Trump, what did he say yesterday? “I’m bored, I’m bored of the Iran negotiations,” like a child. You cannot have unserious people in charge of our countries and our policies.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You can’t help yourself, can you, with Trump?
MEHDI HASAN: Unserious people in charge of our countries, our policies.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Have you ever met him, by the way? You’ve never met—
MEHDI HASAN: I’ve never met Donald Trump. No, no. Should I go to a White House briefing?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I’m just curious. Never met him.
MEHDI HASAN: Should I go to a White House briefing and try to get called on by Karoline Leavitt? I’ve got a few questions.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you meet Biden?
MEHDI HASAN: Did I meet Biden? I’m trying to think. I was at an event with Biden. I think I met him, but Obama— no, he was before my time. I arrived at the end of his presidency.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you—
MEHDI HASAN: I was in a room with Obama. I interviewed a lot of his people— Ben Rhodes, a lot of people around him— but not the president himself. The president never gave me an interview.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Got it. Surprised you’ve never met Trump. Would you want to meet him?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m a journalist. How would I not want to meet him? I’d love to interview him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What would you ask him? What 3 questions would you ask him if you sat with him?
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, I’d only get 3 because he’d walk out after 3.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think he would?
MEHDI HASAN: Oh, he’s super thin-skinned.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think he would want—
MEHDI HASAN: Look, he gets upset with— I regard American interviewers to be softball interviewers. I’m from the UK where we do tough interviews. My biggest criticism of the American media is weak-ass interviews. Norah O’Donnell barely asked him anything the other day and the guy had a meltdown. He’s like, “You’re so rude, you’re so rude, you’re so disgusting.” He just can’t handle it— he’s got such a thin skin. He’s the whiniest leader we’ve ever had.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If I’m not mistaken, she asked about the guy’s letter that had to do with rape and pedophilia and something like that. She started with that— and you could tell she was nervous when she asked the question.
MEHDI HASAN: CBS— this is now in the can for Trump. Let’s not forget, this is the guy who says “be quiet, piggy” to reporters. He can’t handle tough questions.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’ve got 3 questions. What do you ask him?
Trump’s Intelligence and Character
MEHDI HASAN: I would ask him, I wouldn’t ask him opinion questions. It annoys me when people say, “What do you think, Mr.—” He loves that shit. I would ask him fact questions about what is happening in the world.
It depends on the day, right? If I’m interviewing him right now, I would say to him, my opening question would be, “You said a few weeks ago that people say Donald Trump’s going to get bored of this war. ‘I don’t get bored,’ you said. And yesterday you said, ‘I’m bored of this war.’ How do you explain that?” That would be my first question. Later on, I would say to him, “Are you out of your depth in this conflict?” And I would give the evidence as to why he’s out of his depth and ask him to deal with each of those examples. For example, the Strait of Hormuz. For example, the Gulf countries.
I also wouldn’t be able to resist having some fun. I always think someone should ask Donald Trump— I would love for someone at a White House briefing to stand up and ask something that completely exposes this man’s pig ignorance of the world. I would love someone to stand up and say, “Mr. President, when will you be going to Wakanda? They are building a Trump Tower there and they love you in Africa.” And he would say, “I love them too,” because he doesn’t know that Wakanda is a fictional country.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think he would say that?
MEHDI HASAN: 110%.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think he would say that?
MEHDI HASAN: I would pay money to any White House correspondent watching— they get fired on the spot. It’s obvious.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you put him as an intelligent man?
MEHDI HASAN: What’s your definition? Depends how you define intelligent. Street smart, getting ahead, getting his way? Yeah, sure. He wouldn’t be able to get where he got to if he wasn’t.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s probably not a well-read guy in your eyes.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s an understatement. I think he’s one of the most ignorant people I’ve ever come across. You’ve seen the latest stuff? He keeps being like, “I call them dumbocrats. You have to take the B off of dumb.” Most people don’t know that dumb has a B on it. No, most people do know that. You probably just discovered that there’s a B on it. Dumb. You know, there’s a Trump tick. I watch him so much. Whenever he says “most people didn’t know this,” it means he just discovered something himself 2 minutes ago.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You literally think he just discovered how to spell “dumb”?
MEHDI HASAN: I know it. And talk to the people who worked with him. We’re second-term Trump, Patrick. I don’t have to make this stuff up. Dozens of people have now left the administration, have told their stories, and it’s all the same thing. The guy is an egomaniac. The guy is vain. The guy is dumb. The guy changes his opinion based on the last person he spoke to.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is a guy that won in business. This is a guy that— didn’t win in business, 5 bankruptcies in a row.
MEHDI HASAN: You’re more successful than he is.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is a guy that took a show from zero to one. Steve Jobs— the guy won the presidency 2 times.
MEHDI HASAN: I give you Apprentice, 2 times. I give you Apprentice, great reality TV star. Great. I’m not going to question his ability to run a reality TV show. I’m questioning his ability to run America.
Trump as a Father
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How do you think about his kids? Do you give him a compliment as a parent, as a father?
MEHDI HASAN: No. Have you read the stories about—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You don’t think he’s a good father? Why do you think his kids love him?
MEHDI HASAN: You think the kids love him?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You don’t think they do?
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, if you read some of the tabloids— well, money and power can be great.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, if you’re a billionaire, again, kids don’t want to be around him.
MEHDI HASAN: If you read the New York tabloid press that Trump was very friendly with, the kids didn’t like him when he was young. They were annoyed that he was cheating on their respective mothers. Things change. There’s stories about him— allegedly, it’s denied— the story is about allegedly him, you know, slapping Don Jr. at college in front of his friends and all sorts of stories. I don’t know if they’re true or not, but this is what’s reported. Tiffany Trump, he never talks about.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m a Muslim and a Middle Eastern dude. What did our parents do to us when we were kids? Did you ever get slapped? Of course, dude. You and I don’t have the permission to say anything about that, so we got to change the subject.
MEHDI HASAN: He didn’t go to his son’s wedding so he could do troll posts about Roe—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, I don’t think he didn’t go to the wedding because of that. They had to go back for the war and everything that was going on. Come on.
Muslim Voters: 2020 vs. 2024
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When it comes to Muslims, 2020 vote to 2024.
MEHDI HASAN: He did— whatever you did, came back to Muslims. Why are you obsessed with Muslims?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Because you left Iran?
MEHDI HASAN: I want to know why you’re obsessed with me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I want to give you stats.
MEHDI HASAN: You know, there was a terrorist attack on a mosque recently.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did that bother you? I want to give you a stat. Did that bother you? Can I, Mehdi, invite me to your show?
MEHDI HASAN: Oh, I’m inviting you up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Here we go.
MEHDI HASAN: So you’ve all heard it. He said to invite him, Rob. You heard it. Everyone on YouTube heard it. I’m inviting you. Okay. All right. I have a lot of questions.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: In 2020, Biden had 69% of Muslim votes. Trump had 24%. In 2024, Kamala dropped the Democrat vote from 69% to 50%. Trump went from 24% to 31%. Third party got 12%, increased by 9%. Why did Muslims become Republicans?
MEHDI HASAN: Gaza.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Gaza.
MEHDI HASAN: There are other issues too. The bathroom transgender issue in places like Michigan. A lot of conservative Arab Muslims didn’t like that. That was happening even before Gaza, no doubt about that. But it was still a kind of fringe issue. What made it an issue in the Muslim—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, the LGBT.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, there were conservative Arabs in Dearborn who were like, “We don’t want—”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You brought that up, “We don’t want this.”
MEHDI HASAN: And they brought that up. That was before Gaza. There’s no debate that some were shifting already to the Republican Party. Sure. But they were a tiny minority. The vast majority of Muslims still voted Democrat, still supported, still understood the Republican Party is an Islamophobic, white supremacist adjacent party.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think the number one reason why they vote the other side is because of Israel?
MEHDI HASAN: Gaza. No, not Israel. The Gaza genocide. You have to understand, I spoke to a lot of these people. I traveled through all these communities in 2024. And I tried to point out, yes, Biden and Harris are complicit in a genocide. No one’s defending the Democrats. I was very critical of the Democrats and what they did between 2023 and 2024. But Trump will be worse, or as bad. He’s not going to be better.
And people bought the Trump shtick. “No, no, he’s anti-war. He didn’t start any new wars. He’s not interested in the Middle East. He’s friends with MBS. He’s friends with Erdogan. It’s going great.” I met Palestinians who told me Trump will be better on Gaza. “He’s a transactional president.” They bought that shit. Look at him now. Look how many Arab countries have been bombed.
But Muslims were not voting for Trump as a whole. You mentioned third party too. Jill Stein picked up a lot of votes in some places. Not as many as people thought she would.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: 4%.
MEHDI HASAN: Of Muslim votes, yes. In certain places.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Majority was like 80%.
MEHDI HASAN: But my bigger picture is, every time I said to someone, “Trump is going to be worse than Harris,” they said legitimately to me, “But we have to punish the Democrats.” That was the line. “We have to punish the Democrats. They can’t be seen to get away with a genocide.”
Kamala Harris’s Campaign Failures
MEHDI HASAN: And when you say Kamala dropped it to 50, well, Joe Biden dropped it to 50. Harris kept it at 50 by not distancing herself from Biden. Her biggest single mistake was going on The View, and my friend Sunny Hostin said to her, “What will you do differently to Joe Biden?” And she said, “Nothing.” And the minute she said that, I knew she’s lost. And that was it. Until then, I had some hope she could beat him. She was leading in the polls after the convention.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The worst candidate you’ve ever seen on the left in our lifetime? This is your sport.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t think she’s as bad as people thought she was. I think she was definitely handed—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: —a poison chalice.
MEHDI HASAN: But who’s ever had a 60, 100-day campaign?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She got it.
MEHDI HASAN: She got a shitty legacy. Let’s just be fair to her, right? If we’re going to be fair. We should be fair that she got a shit— Joe Biden should not have been in the race until July of 2024. That was insane.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m with you on that one.
MEHDI HASAN: She then got coronated. Joe Biden came out and said— you know, what a load of bullshit from Joe Biden. She’s like, “Oh, I thought he had a stroke that night.” No, you didn’t.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And then the video says, “Oh, Joe, you did so good.”
MEHDI HASAN: We saw you that night. Yeah, if you thought he had a stroke, why didn’t you call the White House doctor? Bullshit, rewriting of history.
I did a video that night after the debate in my basement, in my home studio. I got attacked for it by some people saying Biden needs to stand down is ridiculous. And I still think Trump should stand down. He’s also got mental issues.
But Harris was a good candidate for a very short period. She had all this momentum, the honeymoon period. Americans love rehabilitation. You give somebody a chance, she comes in, she gets a boost— I’m Joy, Joy, remember that? Goes to the convention. I was at the convention. It felt like a freaking party. I remember a member of Congress was there, as if it’s already— a Democratic member said to me, “This is bad, we have not won, this is way too early.” A member of Congress said this to me, a lefty. And I remember sitting there watching, “Oh, Beyoncé is going to be here.” It wasn’t Beyoncé, it was f*ing Leon Panetta. But anyways, bizarre.
We come out of that convention and then she starts tacking to the right. She starts saying all this stuff about— oh, they were shutting down Lina Khan, the antitrust stuff. She had Mark Cuban, Liz Cheney campaigning for her. She campaigned more with Liz Cheney than with AOC and Bernie, right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, that was a horrible move.
MEHDI HASAN: Insane. Horrible move. It didn’t win over anyone.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you think that was a good idea?
MEHDI HASAN: No, I said at the time, these people are not going to switch over. Olivia Troy, who is a good friend of mine, former Trump official turned Never Trumper, she was part of that and she admits now— I’ve interviewed her— she says, “Yeah, we tried, but the concern— we thought there’d be like this mass of conservative women that would come over.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How much money did they raise? $2.1— what was the number? $1.5 billion or $2.1 billion? It’s a big number.
MEHDI HASAN: It was a lot.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah. But so you—
MEHDI HASAN: But she also had a brother-in-law, by the way. There’s a lot of reporting that suggests Kamala’s brother-in-law, her sister’s husband— I think Tony West is his name— big Uber lobbyist. He was pushing her to drop all the affordability good stuff, drop the ads.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: There was some controversy with him as well, if I’m not mistaken. I don’t know.
Trump’s 2024 Victory Margin and the Muslim Vote
MEHDI HASAN: But the affordability agenda that she dropped— she should have gone economic populist, right? She did not go economic populist. Instead, she campaigned with a billionaire and with a war criminal. And I think that was a huge problem. She went on The View and said “no change.” This is a change election. You can’t go into a change election saying I’m not going to do anything different from the guy who’s going out. It was just—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you think, okay, so go to 2018.
MEHDI HASAN: But she could have won, by the way. He didn’t win a landslide. Trump lied his ass off.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you mean she could have won? She lost every single state—
MEHDI HASAN: Have you looked at the numbers? In the 3 key swings, she helped more counties become Republican in America. If you looked at the numbers, if 115,000 people had voted differently, she would be president. That’s what it came down to in our ludicrous system. She lost by 1.5 percentage points. One of the narrowest— he got one of the narrowest wins in modern American history. You know that, right? I know he lies, and people like you give him credit. He lies. He says, “I won a landslide.” He won one of the worst. You could pull it up, Rob.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I wrote a piece for The Guardian with all the receipts. Every county became more Republican in America.
MEHDI HASAN: Pull up my piece. Every county became— 2024, Mehdi landslide.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Type it out. Can you please send this chart to this man here?
MEHDI HASAN: Put it up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The Muslim community became more Republican.
MEHDI HASAN: Which is great. Can we scroll down? Yes. This is a great moment for me taking over your show. Scroll down. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Stop, stop, stop.
So the former president’s margin of victory over Harris is a minuscule 1.6%— actually, it’s 1.5, it went down after that— smaller than that of every winning president since 1888 other than JFK and Richard Nixon. In fact, in the 55 presidential elections in which the popular vote winner became president, listen to this. Oh, your viewers are getting some good facts today. 49 of those 55 elections were won with a margin bigger than Donald Trump’s in 2024. I hope the president is watching your show. You know he’s a friend of yours.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s coming to the show. Can you do me a favor?
MEHDI HASAN: Donald Trump, you lost. Can you show how many counties? Who gives a f* about counties? I’m showing you the margin of victory.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Dude, Mehdi, he won by 1.5.
MEHDI HASAN: You could raise your voice, but I’ve already done mine.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If there’s anybody that has no room to say anything, look at this here.
MEHDI HASAN: Your receipts are up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Look at this here.
MEHDI HASAN: You run away. Look at this here. You know, land doesn’t vote.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Converted Muslims to Republican.
MEHDI HASAN: Patrick, you know land doesn’t vote. I love these maps. That’s land. Land doesn’t vote. I gave you the numbers. Muslims voted for him. Muslims voted for him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, Muslims went from 24% for Trump in 2020 to 31%.
MEHDI HASAN: Patrick, I’m not on the right.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s winning your people over.
MEHDI HASAN: Patrick. Kills me. Patrick, I’m not on the right. I’m not an election denier. Donald Trump won, but he didn’t win 50% of the vote. People say he won the popular vote. You know he didn’t win a majority of the votes. He’s run 3—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know that, but he’s run 3 elections. You know what, the last Republican that did it—
MEHDI HASAN: George W. Bush.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, it’s the last one that did it. It’s not like, oh my God, he didn’t win the majority, you know.
MEHDI HASAN: But he brags and says he does, but he’s never won a majority of the vote. Today he’s polling in the 30s. He’s lost, by the way, he’s lost all that support from Latinos, young people, and Muslims. You get that, right? That coalition he put together is gone now.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah. So this is the part where guys like you come out and say what they’ll say.
MEHDI HASAN: They’ll say facts.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you see his endorsement? How they did? Did you see his endorsement? How they did? Everybody he picked. Did you see how many of them won?
MEHDI HASAN: Oh, in the primaries?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah.
MEHDI HASAN: Great, great news for Democrats.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Great news.
MEHDI HASAN: Tell me, tell me why James Talarico wants to run against Paxton or Cornyn.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m actually curious. Tell me why.
MEHDI HASAN: He picks horrible candidates. What was the Georgia candidate? They should have won Georgia and they lost. Who did they put up? Herschel Walker. Remember that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Remember Herschel?
MEHDI HASAN: I remember.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Remember the dude? Good runner. He had a hard time speaking.
MEHDI HASAN: Remember the dude in Alabama who was accused of child molestation that he denied? I can’t remember his name. Alabama guy from his first term. He backed him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Talk about now.
MEHDI HASAN: He picks— talk about now. 117.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: 117.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, but why would you back Paxton? Let’s just talk about the main—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Tell me why— so you like establishment candidates? 40-plus years.
MEHDI HASAN: I hate John Cornyn. I hate Kyrsten Sinema. But who would you want to run against? I want the Democrats to win the Senate, obviously, to save democracy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you think Talarico does better with Paxton than he does with Cornyn?
MEHDI HASAN: You don’t?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m asking you. No, no, I ask.
MEHDI HASAN: I 100% think he’s going to do better. The polls show he’s doing better. Just trust the polls.
Texas Senate Race and the Muslim Vote in American Politics
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s leading. So you think— by the way, do you guys in your family celebrate Pride Month?
MEHDI HASAN: Do we celebrate Pride Month?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m just asking, do you guys have a way of celebrating Pride Month?
MEHDI HASAN: Personally, no, but I support people who do. Did you see Mamdani yesterday? Interesting couple of posts. You know, he was called a Muslim Sharia extremist by people on your side. 9 AM he posts “Happy Pride Month,” mayor of New York. Midday, “Happy Eid,” hosted Eid at Gracie Mansion. That’s modern America. People that want to make this guy into some kind of extremist— you guys on your show, I see you getting worked up about prayers in New York. This guy is around.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, so by the way, I think Talarico is formidable. It’s not like I don’t think he’s formidable. I think he’s a very good communicator. To be honest with you, I think he’s a better version of Pete Buttigieg. I think he’s got a bigger upside than Pete Buttigieg.
MEHDI HASAN: I think he’s very talented.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think he’s very talented.
MEHDI HASAN: I want to interview him again. He’s a very, very good talker. His policies are good. Texas is difficult. My wife is from Texas. I spend a lot of time in Texas. I’m under no illusions, it’s a difficult state to win, but it’s not as red as Republicans want you to believe. Not anymore. Not anymore.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not anymore.
MEHDI HASAN: And I think they could have probably won with Cornyn, but I think now it’s in play. And you have to ask, what is Donald Trump’s political— you know, Patrick, every Republican senator is pulling their hair out wondering what the hell did Donald Trump do here. He’s now put the Senate in play in a way it wasn’t in play before, because even if Paxton wins Texas, they have to divert a bunch of resources from other states which need them more to protect him. That’s the problem strategically.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: For Paxton or Talarico?
MEHDI HASAN: For the Republicans trying to save their Senate majority. They’re going to have to divert resources.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you know how much money they’re going to spend on this?
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, but it could have been spent elsewhere.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: We’re going to see the money going there in ways we’ve never seen.
MEHDI HASAN: But it could have been spent elsewhere. That’s the part about the race in Michigan. They’ve got tough races all over.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, just out of curiosity, they’re losing in North Carolina. I’m curious what you’re going to say with this. So out of curiosity, you have two people to choose as a candidate. One is a hardcore Republican, capitalist, pro-Trump guy who’s a Muslim. The second one is a hardcore socialist, progressive liberal who is a Christian. Which do you vote for?
MEHDI HASAN: Obviously I vote for the person whose values and policies I support. I don’t vote based on religion.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you would vote for the second person? Of course, because of the values and principles.
MEHDI HASAN: Of course, I don’t vote based on religion. Mehmet Oz ran against John Fetterman. He would have been the first Muslim senator. If Abdul El-Sayed pulls it off in Michigan, he will be the first ever Muslim member of the United States Senate in American history.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, we’ve never had one.
MEHDI HASAN: Never had one.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, 5 Congressmen. Mehmet Oz could have been the first Muslim, but he would have been a Republican.
MEHDI HASAN: Exactly. And his policies were horrible.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: For you, it’s a no-go.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, because I don’t care. It would be nice to say, hey, of course. But then, by the way, who did I back against him? Literally the worst Democratic senator. He turned out to be John Fetterman. But let’s put that to one side. But Mehmet Oz— yeah, I don’t vote on religion. I think it’s crazy if people vote on religion. You shouldn’t vote on religion. Muslims shouldn’t vote for Muslims. Jews shouldn’t vote for Jews. Christians shouldn’t either. You should vote based on your policy platform, the principles and values.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think we’ll have—
MEHDI HASAN: Muslims are not a monolith. I don’t agree with all Muslims. You just mentioned some of them who vote for Trump.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you think long term, America will be at a point where we’ll have a Muslim governor or Muslim president?
MEHDI HASAN: Muslim governor, I hope. Maybe Mamdani. He can’t be president, right? So where does he go next after—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He could be governor.
MEHDI HASAN: He could be governor. He could be senator, right? He can’t go anywhere else. Secretary of State, whatever it is. He can’t be president, sadly.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not even VP, right? You can’t even be VP. Speaker of the House— I think if he chooses to go that route, that’s a good question.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know the answer to that. The House is third in line to the president.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think you could be speaker.
MEHDI HASAN: But then what if the president—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know, on the same plane. But that’s why they’re not on the same flight when they go. You’ll notice some of the stuff that they do.
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know. I don’t know the answer. If you’re ineligible from the presidency, can you be in the— Yes, the Constitution does not require the Speaker of the House to be born in the US, but it means they would have to skip past the speaker if something happened.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, it would go to somebody else.
Sharia Law, Political Violence, and Muslim Communities in America
MEHDI HASAN: So he could run for Congress, be speaker, he could be whatever. But to come back to your question, yes, Muslim governor, I think hopefully very soon. Yeah, inshallah, as Joe Biden might say. And president, president, I don’t think for a while. Look, let’s first get a woman president. This country is so behind the rest of the world. We haven’t had a woman leader. Pakistan’s had a woman leader. Bangladesh has had a woman leader. Most European countries have had a woman leader. America still needs to do that basic thing.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Your thoughts on a lot of people in America — you got things that’s happening in Texas with that one city.
MEHDI HASAN: What is it called?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Epic City or something like that in Plano, Texas.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you say to some conservatives that are worried about Sharia law making it into America?
MEHDI HASAN: I would say please do not worry. You’re being lied to. You’re being gaslit. You’re being distracted. This is a fake moral panic that’s been blown up.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’ll never happen, or because Sharia law is not that bad?
MEHDI HASAN: Two different things. Number one, Sharia law is not what you think it is, but we can park that for discussion for a moment. It’s not happening. There’s nobody I know who’s pushing Sharia law in this country. It’s completely fake, and it’s being pushed in ridiculous places — not just Texas, Oklahoma, Indiana. Did you see the lieutenant governor of Indiana said recently, “We need to hate Islam, it’s a demonic religion”? And, “I’m going to fight radical Islam and Sharia.” How many — do you know what the Muslim population of Indiana is? Less than 1%. This is ridiculous fearmongering.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It has 3x’d in the US, I think, in the last 26 years, if I’m not mistaken. But it’s still not Indiana.
MEHDI HASAN: But even nationwide, what is it, 1 to 2%?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I want to say 4.5 million.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s one, which is —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Which is why you’re right, it’s 1 or 2. But by the way, I mean, you’re 3x in 26 years. Okay, you’re not doing a bad job, you’re growing.
MEHDI HASAN: We’re growing. Elon Musk wants people to have more kids. But my point being is it’s not going to happen. But also, a few things. Number one, please let’s not talk in this demonizing way about Muslim communities being a threat to you, because it has real-world consequences.
We just saw in San Diego, a mosque was attacked by two Nazi teenagers — teenagers who shot and killed 3 people, including the security guard, who had 8 kids. Police say he was a hero, saved 100 kids in that mosque, in the school. Murdered by 2 guys. Do you read their manifesto? I don’t like reading these shooters.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I did. I read the whole thing.
MEHDI HASAN: Some of the lines in there are crazy. They say towards everybody — Jews, women, Muslims, gay. But the line about Muslims is really scary because they say, “We don’t hate Muslims, we hate the invasion of our country.” That is rhetoric that you hear on right-wing media. That is rhetoric that you hear in the House of Representatives. That is what you hear from Randy Fein. That is what you hear from Republicans. That is what you hear in America.
So that is not just some Nazi shooter. That is mainstream rhetoric that has been mainstreamed on the right, and it has real-world consequences. I’ve seen some of your shows. You’ve talked about Muslims praying in Times Square, that being some kind of threat. I would say just have a sense of what the real-world consequences of our rhetoric can be. Words have consequences. Crazy people out there can pick up weapons and think, “Muslims are coming to take over my country.”
Death Threats After the Bibi Interview
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I would tell you, I’ve interviewed a lot of weird people on my podcast. A lot. You tell them, I’ll have them on. I don’t have a problem talking. I had a great conversation with Wes Moore, about 5 weeks ago. I’ve had mobsters on, Sammy the Bull. I’ve had Kobe on. I’ve had many different people on.
You know what’s the only one that brought so many death threats? Bibi was the only one. I’ve had a lot of people on — multiple presidents. We did a podcast with Bibi. I’ve never told this story publicly, so they’ll know. It was on my birthday, and I come out of the podcast, my security says there’s a guy in the front lobby that just got caught by cops with grenades. I said, “This is a terrible joke,” because everybody always tried to prank me for my birthday and I always catch people. I’m like, “They’re trying to surprise me. This is not the right way to do it.” He says, “I’m not laughing, this is an 18 Delta guy.” And I said, “Really?” He says, “Yeah, look at the front gate.”
So I go to the front gate, I’m looking, I’m like, “Wait a minute, what is that?” Cops everywhere. Guy shows up — I’ll show you the pictures afterwards — with grenades, with weapons, with guns that came in here. And the number of death threats that we started getting afterwards, insane, just for having Bibi.
MEHDI HASAN: Dare I ask, what was the guy’s background?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do we know? I couldn’t tell you. I know he went away. I know they took his weapons away. I’ll show you a couple texts and emails.
MEHDI HASAN: Was he “far right”? Was he “Islamist”? Do we know what his ethnicity was?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I have no idea. I don’t know that. But the point is, yeah, the threats started increasing only after Bibi. So here’s the part when you say that — I think that applies to both sides.
MEHDI HASAN: I agree.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If you think about who in the history of America has had more assassination attempts as a president, where do you think that’s coming from? “He’s a fascist, Hitler,” this, that.
MEHDI HASAN: But he deals it out. He’s the one who started the threats and the violence.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not going to sit here and apologize for him.
MEHDI HASAN: He calls his opponents Nazis.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s called a lot of people a lot of things.
MEHDI HASAN: “Biden, the Nazi.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But dude, the guys — after how many times they called him — he couldn’t get anything right when he was coming up. The media was —
MEHDI HASAN: Come on, in 2016 he suggested the Second Amendment people should take care of Hillary Clinton. Come on, I have a longer memory.
But let me come back to what I was saying. I agree with you, we need it across the board. I don’t think we should have political violence. I don’t support political violence on any end. I don’t justify going after capitalists or anyone else. I’m against violence.
Islam’s Hidden Threat and the Rhetoric of Fear
So I’m saying to you, for example, you did a show recently — or not recently — I looked it up because I knew we were going to talk about Islam here. You have a show on YouTube called “Islam’s Hidden Threat to the West.” You have another headline, “Will Muslims Run America in 30 Years?” Now I know you like to host good faith discussions and debates, but you have to understand if people get this in their feeds and their social media all the time — are you telling me that people are not going to start — if they hear Micah Beckwith of Indiana say, “Islam is a demonic religion,” and then they hear guests on your show saying Islam’s a threat to the West, and they hear Randy Fiennes saying Sharia law’s taken over America — you don’t think two Nazi teenagers with guns are going to go, “Well, I’m going to go deal with this mosque down my street”? You’re telling me there’s no link between that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I’m not going to say there’s no link between that.
MEHDI HASAN: Of course there is. We have to be careful. We know that demonizing minority communities — look what happened to synagogues. And I would say the same thing about the Jewish community. We have to be careful about our criticism of Israel so it doesn’t lead to attacks on Jews.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: For me, it’s all on data. Meaning, if you live in my community, you make it safer, I’m all for it.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If you come and you create jobs, I’m all for it. If you come and you assimilate, you love America, I’m all for it. If you come in, you don’t contribute, you take advantage of the programs that we have, you don’t want to create jobs — where is the incentive? Why are we —
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a different argument. We can have that. I’m talking about — when you say, “Muslims, are they going to run America in 30 years?” Of course not. We’re a tiny — we’re 1% of the population. When you say Islam is a threat to the West — oh, come on, 1% of the population.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By 2050, you guys are going to be the biggest population in the world. You guys make 2.9 —
MEHDI HASAN: Not in America. Not in America. We’re not even going to be —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, look at the numbers, Rob. What are we going to be in 2050? The difference between you and I is I think long term —
MEHDI HASAN: And even if, by the way, if we do grow as a community — I’m sorry to go back to World War II and the Nazis, but look at the rhetoric that Nazis used about Jews in the 1920s and ’30s. “These people are aliens, they are parasites, they’re leeching off our state.” The rhetoric is very similar. When I listen to Andy Ogles and I listen to Chip Roy and I listen to Randy —
The Ilhan Omar Debate
Yes, you know how I know she loves America? You don’t?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Absolutely not.
MEHDI HASAN: She absolutely loves America. You know how I know she loves America? Because she came to America, she decided to run for office. When she ran for office, she ran as a lefty who devotes her life to trying to improve people’s lives. She wants healthcare for everyone.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She wants healthcare for every Trump voter watching this — saying she is eventually going to return to her country and contribute to her country.
MEHDI HASAN: She’s only doing this to advance her country’s bullshit. Ilhan Omar, you can —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Her words, pull up the video.
MEHDI HASAN: Listen to me, pull up her video. Let me say this to you. Donald Trump has made more anti-American remarks than Ilhan Omar. If we’re going to go down who loves America, she loves it more than Trump does. She didn’t incite an insurrection.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Ilhan Omar loves America 100 times more. 100 times. Not even 1,000 times — you see that Ilhan Omar loves America more than Trump?
MEHDI HASAN: Well, one person incited an attack on our democracy, one didn’t. One tried to undermine American democracy, one didn’t. One pardoned 1,600 people who attacked America, one didn’t.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What happened with her finances? Where did the $30 million net worth come from out of nowhere? Hold on, hold on, don’t go Trump on me! I am going to do that because your argument now is —
MEHDI HASAN: First of all, I don’t want to get into the rights and wrongs of politicians’ finances. You’re telling me Republican congressmen are not corrupt?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m just wondering because Ilhan Omar amended a congressional financial reform.
MEHDI HASAN: What’s that got to do with loving America? You’re telling me if people’s finances — Donald Trump is the most corrupt politician in modern American history. You just said he loves America. Donald Trump is the most corrupt politician in America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s your opinion.
MEHDI HASAN: He just made $3 billion.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: In your eyes.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, Rob, pull up the numbers. How much did Donald Trump’s net worth go up by last year? Let me ask you — are you $3 billion?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Just out of curiosity, $3 billion.
MEHDI HASAN: How did he make that? Are you going to —
Trump’s Wealth, Muslim Americans, and LGBTQ Debates
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How did he make $3 billion as our president? Are you going to go and show the same— wait a minute, if you’re going to allow me to rebuttal— you always rebut with a question, I’ve noticed that over time. All you do is yabba dabba dabba. You’re a professional yabba dabba dabba.
MEHDI HASAN: I said Ilhan loves America. Just out of curiosity, you’re the jumper-up guy. We were talking about who loves America, now we’re talking about questions.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you also going to go—
MEHDI HASAN: Look at that line, Patrick. Rob is good.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can I show you something?
MEHDI HASAN: You know, you said capitalists expand, Rob. If you’re ever looking for a job, my friend.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, everybody’s been trying. So if you go back here, then what’s your argument? If you say, look how— no, no, stay on that, Rob, stay on that. Yeah, then what do you say? His first presidency, he lost so much money. Did you ever say that? You never said that because that doesn’t add to your argument.
MEHDI HASAN: This is— no, I’ve always said the second term is the term where he’s got no guardrails. He gets to do whatever he wants.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know, but his first term, he lost money. Okay, but the second term, what about a second term? Market’s gone up. That’s made money. Market’s gone up. Have you made more money in the last 18 months?
MEHDI HASAN: Do you know what happened on January 19th, the day before he became president, inaugurated? Tell me. The Emiratis put $500 million into his crypto fund. You think that was the market going up? They gave a half a billion dollar bribe to Donald Trump. $187 million went straight into Trump bank accounts. Ilhan Omar can work for the rest of her life, do whatever, she’ll never make $187 million. Trump made that in one day from the Emiratis. If Biden or Hunter Biden had done it, you’d be up in arms. Now back to the topic of who loves America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Ilhan Omar loves— Yes, I’m so glad.
MEHDI HASAN: I’ll tell your viewers Judge quoted from that. Please, please quote me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me finish the quote and then let’s go back to the promise.
MEHDI HASAN: Quote, I will. Ilhan Omar has spent her political career trying to get free lunches for every American child, including the children of MAGA voters. Donald Trump has spent his presidency taking away Medicare, taking away healthcare from people, taking Medicaid away from people. So yes, Ilhan Omar loves Americans more than Donald Trump loves Americans.
By the way, when she was threatened by a Trump supporter who tried to kill her, he went to prison, tried to kill Ilhan Omar in 2019. She went to the sentencing, and she asked for his sentence to be reduced to give him grace. I can’t imagine Donald Trump doing that. I do think someone who has actually a very good role model—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you know how many—
MEHDI HASAN: And I wouldn’t have done that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know how many endless stories there are of what Trump’s done behind closed doors for people? Do you know how many?
MEHDI HASAN: Yes. And you know how many of them are— do you know how many of them screwing people over? Do you know what he did to his niece? Do you know what he did to a baby in his family?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is all you’re going to— this is your hit piece just going on him right now? I mean, you’re doing positive. You’re building up men. You’re building up Ilhan. Like, if anybody— comparison—
MEHDI HASAN: Is there— sure, anyone who knows Ilhan Omar says she’s a good person. All of her friends— Donald Trump— what is everyone who knows Donald Trump?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: She’s a horrible person. Investigation into her right now.
MEHDI HASAN: Why did no one in Donald Trump’s cabinet endorse Donald Trump for president the second time?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What is the investigation?
MEHDI HASAN: Why did his vice president not endorse him for president?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know how he is though. He is a guy that— they all hate rivals.
MEHDI HASAN: They hate him.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why don’t we come back?
MEHDI HASAN: Why don’t you come back? Why did he come back?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Why did they come?
MEHDI HASAN: Because the Democrats fed everything up. Joe Biden, Merrick Garland fed everything up. Okay, whose fault is that? The Democrats. Beautiful. I’m agreeing with you.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But how come Merrick Garland?
MEHDI HASAN: I blame two people.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How come the unified Republicans? I blame two.
MEHDI HASAN: I blame two people for Donald Trump. Merrick Garland and Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell should have voted to convict in 2021 to prevent him from ever running again. And Merrick Garland should have got off his ass and investigated him from day one and not outsourced it to Jack Smith. Jack Smith with one year to go.
And back to— I just do want to come back to the Islam question. Let’s do it. Muslims love America who live here. According to the Pew polls, 92% of Muslims in America say they love being American.
Muslims in America and the Question of Loyalty
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t— I do.
MEHDI HASAN: So this is a myth that Muslims don’t love America? No. And by the way, I have Muslims who work for me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Right afterwards, come with me, I’ll take them to them if you want to meet them.
MEHDI HASAN: So my point is, and their families are worried for their safety right now. Every Muslim in America— I know they are.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think every Muslim is safest in America. Let’s talk to you guys. I think they feel safest in America.
MEHDI HASAN: Every Muslim I know, Patrick, trust me on this one, I spend a lot of time with Muslims. Every Muslim I know is worried about what they’re going to do, have a plan B. Where are you going to go? Where are you going to go live if it becomes intolerable? Go ahead and leave America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: How come they don’t?
MEHDI HASAN: Because they love America. That’s the point. They feel the safest. No, but what if— but it’s changing, right? What if— hold on, but Jews feel the same way, Patrick, you know that, right? Jewish communities right now saying we don’t feel safe in America. You know this, they’re saying it every day. Sure, they’re saying where synagogues are being attacked, we’re being demonized. So Muslims feel the same way, but especially when a mosque is attacked by two Nazis, Republicans can’t even bring themselves to condemn it. Do you know that Ted Cruz wouldn’t even condemn it?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: We talked about it on social media. You did. I’m talking about Republican Congress. I can’t speak on their behalf, buddy. I’m not them. No, good. But I’m speaking on my behalf. Whatever they do is their position.
MEHDI HASAN: But on your show too, Patrick, come on, you did a whole thing. I watched it of you obsessing over this Times Square prayer like this is some act of domination. Why are Muslims not allowed to pray in Times Square? Why are Jews allowed to do Hanukkah? Hindus do Diwali.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know what my argument is? Catholics do this. You know what my argument is against that? Guess what my argument is against that? You ready? Go on. It’s going to go back to something you don’t like. Please. You ready? Go on. Here we go. If Muslims do a better job expanding, they deserve everything they get. But it’s not expanding.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s not. But it is.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, it is. Changing the subject. If— no, no, it is though. If Muslims— I’m a capitalist to the core, meaning if you beat me, guess what I do? You got to tip your hat. I don’t know if you follow basketball or not.
MEHDI HASAN: What if people aren’t trying to beat you? What if they just want to pray around the—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, but their vision— you want to go watch how many of the videos, like, long term we’re going to come to America.
MEHDI HASAN: Have you seen the Christian prayers at the National Mall? They’re not the same. No, dude, have you seen— are you kidding me? Can I ask you what— can I ask you a question? You need to get out more. You’re on the right-wing algorithm too much. You watch Ilhan Omar videos all day long.
LGBTQ, Islam, and the Muslim Vote Shift
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know, at one point I was sitting down with Muslims trying to find out what things we have in common. Yeah, literally, I was bringing Muslims to sit down and talk about them. You know why? Because to me, the LGBTQ specifically on the T-side was getting a little too far. And I think deep down inside, to the core, you’re there, but you know you can’t say publicly because it’s politics for you over what your religion believes in. As a Muslim, what is the Muslim position on LGBTQ?
MEHDI HASAN: There is no one position. Islam is not a monolith. But yes, in general—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh, let me read it.
MEHDI HASAN: Let me finish. Go for it. Islam in general, obviously— Islam— not an Islamic scholar, but Islam as traditionally practiced, like Christianity and Judaism as traditionally practiced, is very hostile to the idea of homosexuality. Okay, theologically we have that in common.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me finish. Okay.
MEHDI HASAN: Pew thing. Let me give you some polls, because you keep talking about Americans, this and that. So in 2017, Pew did a poll of Americans— and they found that Muslim Americans were more likely to say— 52%, I think it was— of Muslim Americans said that homosexuality should be accepted in society. You know how many white evangelical Protestants said that? 34%.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Protestants was 34%. I have that data.
MEHDI HASAN: So Muslims were more accepting of homosexuality. They were more accepting of homosexuality than white Christian evangelicals, right? So my question then is, when you talk about integration, assimilation, America is a liberal country, it’s a pro-gay country whether you like it or not.
Muslims— and by the way, we ran a poll this year. One last point, Patrick, we ran a poll earlier this year at Zeteo from Opinion. They polled Muslims in the UK and the US. Guess what they found? Muslims in the UK and the US support democracy more than non-Muslim Americans and non-Muslim Britons. Muslims in America and Britain support gender equality more than non-Muslim Britain and America. So for your viewers, I just want to make clear, you’ve been lied to about Muslim attitudes. I’m giving you the most—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But let me ask you, what was your position a few years ago on homosexuality?
MEHDI HASAN: My position when growing up was very hostile.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s very— yeah, not hostile, probably very conservative. Hostile? Okay, it was conservative. Okay, so if I go to—
MEHDI HASAN: And I’ve talked about how I’ve evolved on that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, so if I go to some of the countries with homosexuality— 10 countries where homosexuality is illegal with legal punishment, at least death penalties, legal punishment in 10 countries: Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Qatar, Somalia. What’s the point? UAE, Nigeria. These are— this is where they’re coming from. Okay, so Iran and Saudi, the only two nations confirmed to have carried out government-sanctioned executions for that. Horrific. Yeah. Not one Shia-majority nation is for same-sex marriage. Iran criminalized it.
MEHDI HASAN: And yet Muslim Americans are. Well, interestingly, not at the highest—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, not at the highest percentage as you think. I think the part where more than most Republicans— the part where conservatives and Muslims, if you ask me on why that Muslim vote went from 24% to 31% for Trump, is because liberals got so caught in this LGBTQ community.
Part of it— let me finish the thought— that I brought them here to sit down and talk and say, look, you have two daughters. I have two daughters. I have two sons. We have kids. For me, this isn’t a position of LGBTQ community or not. I don’t have a problem with it. They work for me. I will literally take you to my office right now to meet some of these guys and give you a tour myself so you meet some of my staff that I have.
It’s about the force that was down the throat of kids. It was forcing that we have to sit there and hear what LGBTQ is all about and all this stuff being taught by schools.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m not debating that that had an impact. It had an impact, by the way, on the Latino community too.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: It did. There’s a lot of— and they weren’t conservative.
Cultural Clashes, Immigration, and Racism in America
MEHDI HASAN: They don’t like that. But by the way, so two things. One, I’m not denying that. I said I’m the one who brought it up and said it was partly LGBT, but it wasn’t the big driver. The big driver was Gaza, right?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: And number two, by the way, just respectfully, we’re going to find that if you’re right or I’m right in 2028. I agree. You understand what I’m saying?
MEHDI HASAN: Because right now, right now, what’s interesting— yeah, right now, as of right now, 2026, Trump has totally destroyed that coalition. He had a lot of Muslim support. Not anymore. He had a lot of Latino support. —will see the same. Well, we’ll also know in the midterms, but yes, that coalition he seemed to have built, that scary coalition for those of us on the left, he’s his own worst enemy, Donald Trump. With ICE, he destroyed his Latino support. With Iran, he supported a lot of it, and Israeli supported. He’s destroyed a lot of his Muslim support.
But I would make a wider point, which is, at the end of the day, I say this to Muslim communities, you can’t vote based just on religion or just on foreign policy. You cannot be single-issue voters. As a Muslim American, you need to care about everything in America. You need to care about the economy. You need to care about healthcare. And I think most Muslim Americans do. And I think they make decisions. By the way, the big reason the Republican Party will not win over Muslims or Arab Americans in big numbers is ’cause of the racism, Patrick, fundamentally.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That racism is BS. I don’t think so.
MEHDI HASAN: What? You don’t think Randy Fiennes is a racist?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Randy Fiennes is not my guy. But he’s a Republican in Florida. No, he’s to me— You don’t think Donald Trump is a racist? Not at all.
MEHDI HASAN: When he says to Rashida Tlaib, “you should go back to where you came from.”
PATRICK BET-DAVID: “If you don’t like America, go back.”
MEHDI HASAN: She’s born and raised in Michigan. That’s racist, Patrick. When I grew up, you tell someone to go back to where they came from, you start a fight.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: If you don’t— if— listen, come on, we’re both from the—
MEHDI HASAN: Ali’s garbage, dude. We’re both racist.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You lived in UK, I’ve lived in Middle East, but we’re both from the same area region. We are what a lot— if we walked in the streets and say we don’t have a name, they will look at us in maybe a different way than they do the average guy. You’re not a white guy, I’m not a white guy.
Child Marriage, Cultural Values, and Immigration
PATRICK BET-DAVID: When you’re talking about all this stuff, you said Muslim people coming in here. I’ll tell you another thing that is a concern of mine. I want to know what you’re going to say about this when it comes down to age for marriage in some of these countries. Give you a rebuttal. I’m curious.
So if a person comes from a country where, like in Sudan, the minimum age for marriage is 10 years old, are you for that? I don’t think you are. In Iran, the legal age for marriage is 13 years old. As young as 9 with parental consent. Are you for that? I’m certain you’re not. Yemen, no legal minimum age. One-third of women 20 to 24 married before 18 years old. Iraq Parliament in 2024 moved to allow girls to marry as young as 9 years old under Jafari school law. Pakistan, 1.9 million child brides in Pakistan, 6th highest in the world.
By the way, the good news with that, I want to give that credit as well, Islamabad Capital Territory. Just changed the minimum age to 18. Good for them, they’re making progress. Nigeria, over 50% of girls married before—
What’s the question, Patrick? This is the question. Culturally, if you’re coming from this environment to America— notice I didn’t say every other country that’s coming from Muslim— if you’re coming from that culture to America, does that coincide? Because if you’ve lived there for 30, 40 years and these are the values you’ve lived with, then you’re coming here, there’s a clash with the Western ideology.
MEHDI HASAN: What do you say to that? I will say two things. Number one, all of the social sciences show that when people move to a country, within a generation, max two, they do assimilate to local values. And I just gave you the numbers for it. Muslims in America and Britain who come from dictatorships support democracy more than non-Muslim Americans and Britons. The percentages are there. American Muslims are more open to homosexuality and acceptability of homosexuality, having lived in the US than white Christian evangelical Protestants. So the data shows that within generations, they do not— they do adapt or assimilate, integrate, whatever word. These are all loaded phrases.
And by the way, Europe and America are different, by the way, don’t forget. Europe is a very secular place. So when you’re moving there, it’s actually very different. America is actually more hospitable to Muslims coming from those places, ’cause we are still very much a Christian country with very conservative attitudes.
It’s funny, Rob’s on duty, I hope still. I got a request for Rob here. You mentioned you’re giving me these child bride ages. Rob, pull up American states. How many of the states in America had child marriages until very recently? What’s the age of consent? What’s the lowest age of consent in American states until very recently? So when you’re already at 13, 14, 15, until very recently, American states— that’s now— you can see those. There are states that until very recently was 12, 13, 14. So America maybe doesn’t get to give so many lessons on some of these things.
By the way, what is the biggest scandal in this country right now? It’s the pedophile who was protected by the President of the United States. Donald Trump not just protected Jeffrey Epstein after lying and saying he would expose—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: There are so many places I can go with that but I won’t.
MEHDI HASAN: Please! He also gave Ghislaine Maxwell kind of a soft ride in prison. He also was going to appoint Matt Gaetz, a man who was accused by the House Ethics Committee of sleeping with a 17-year-old. What do you think?! He was going to make him Attorney General. So please don’t give lessons to other people right now on how agents can do their job.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No no no, it’s not like—
MEHDI HASAN: Not you personally. But anyone in America, let’s clean up our own house.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The question isn’t about cleaning up our stuff. God knows we have a lot of stuff to do. FYI, when people start talking about Epstein, I can guarantee you no conservative podcasters have spoken about Epstein more than us. I guarantee, just so you know. Good. We’re not one that they sit there and say, hey, we love, because they’re not going to talk about Epstein. Go online on YouTube when you leave here to just gain the credibility. You’re talking about cultural clashes. That’s the point.
MEHDI HASAN: There’s a clash of cultures. I’m saying there’s not.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You and I are sitting here, we’re talking. Can you and I coexist? Yes. Do you think you and I can live in the same community? Yes. Do you think you and I can live in the same—
MEHDI HASAN: I mean, you live in a much bigger house on a richer street. You’re a pretty rich guy, bro.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re a multimillionaire, Doug. Like, don’t act like you’re a small time—
MEHDI HASAN: I read on the way here, Spectator, that you have a $75,000 a week house in the Hamptons. I can’t get near that. You believe this stuff?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is all fake news that they tell. You’re so funny. Vinnie, we have to make sure we don’t post pictures this summer where we’re staying at, because Mehdi is going to be talking shit to us. 75 grand a week, well done. Where were we at? We were talking about— okay, you and I can coexist.
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, my parents are from India, which has a lot of backward things going on, but a lot of child marriage.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: A little bit of UK, you went to a good school, you went to Oxford.
MEHDI HASAN: Who made the school happen? My parents from India. Your parents paid for it, they worked hard for it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So they were immigrants.
MEHDI HASAN: FYI, okay, what if Patrick Bet-David in the 1960s said my dad shouldn’t come? Do you want me to go to a different place?
Income, Religion, and the Republican Party
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me take you to this next place. You ready? Okay, let me go to the next place. What religious groups that come here make the most money in America?
MEHDI HASAN: No idea. Of course you do.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Hinduism, number one. Yeah, $166,000. Yeah, great. You know that number. Yeah, great community.
MEHDI HASAN: Now being attacked by right-wing Republicans.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not me. I didn’t say you.
MEHDI HASAN: I said right-wing Republicans.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m telling you my position. I know, and I have some— by the way, I have guys that are working here that say that. That’s their position.
MEHDI HASAN: But we think the Republican Party is racist and you shouldn’t—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, we sit and we debate because we think that’s the right way to do it. Because your book is called what? Yeah, Win: The Art of Debate. Put the link below, Rob, so people want to go support the book, they have it. Watch this. Hinduism, $166,000, $200,000. It’s pretty good, it’s contributing to society, right?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m a great admirer of the Hindu community.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Judaism, you’re supportive of them, $115,000. You think they’re net positive for America? Yes. Protestants, $82,500. Orthodox Christians, $78,000. Catholicism, $74,000. Islam, $68,000, right? Atheists are $85,000. And then you got Buddhism. Man, that’s a bad shout out to Buddhists. You guys got to figure out a way to make money, guys. This is like serious stuff right there. Pray a lot. Yes.
So to me, this isn’t about skin color or racism. When I meet Indians in America, I gotta tell you, the ones I’ve met, they love America. They actually love living here.
MEHDI HASAN: What you’re saying, Patrick, but you— and this is a slight problem for you because you say I’m not speaking for the Republican Party, but you are in right-wing media space. There’s no debate about it.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m not debating that.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, but you’re an immigrant from Iran who came in as a refugee.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I have a slightly different view.
MEHDI HASAN: Exactly, exactly. So when you say Hinduism, great, okay, go tell the Texas Republican Party, go tell conservatives in Texas. You know why? Do you know? Let me finish my point. All these Hindus in Texas, well-off Hindus, they supported Trump and MAGA. And guess what? They’re trying to build a temple in Houston, and people are protesting outside saying, “Take this demonic religion outside.”
I’m no fan of Vivek Ramaswamy, right? I’ve interviewed him, we had a great clash, but I do admire him as a smart guy. He succeeded in life, he’s super patriotic, he’s very eloquent. He’s running for governor of Ohio. Did you see the clip the other day? A guy stands up in the crowd, says “Hinduism is a pagan demonic religion, why should we have you lead us?” This is what the Republican Party— for you to say they’re not a racist party when I’m seeing what they’re doing to Vivek Ramaswamy, forget Muslims, what they’re doing to Hindus in Texas, what they’re doing to Hindus in Ohio. This is a white supremacist party. Yes, white supremacist. What’s your definition of racism?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is nobody racist? No one. I think— what’s your definition of racist? May I finish, please? You’re raising your voice. Why are you screaming? I’m sitting right across from you, bro. Like, let’s act American, not Middle East.
MEHDI HASAN: You shouted earlier, but yes, fair enough.
Tribalism, Bigotry, and Human Nature
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So to me, I think a part of it is I think everybody has a little bit of bigotry in them. Everybody. And I know it’s going to sound like, what are you talking about? I think everybody is a little bit against some community. By the way, it could be as simple as you’re a Red Sox fan, I’m a Yankees fan, I can’t stand you, there’s no way we can coexist. It could be you’re from Boston, I’m from New York.
MEHDI HASAN: Tribalism. People are tribal.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, that’s natural. Agreed. That’s not like a, you know, you were a kid, you were part of a gang, you’re part of another gang, okay, we’re going to—
MEHDI HASAN: attacking a religious minority.
Racism, Refugees, and DEI Debate
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So that’s that part. The other side is calling — I don’t know, like, if there’s one thing — I brought up Westmore, that we’re speaking to. And I’m like, you realize, for Democrats, why did they lose so much of their support during this period? Let me finish, and you can argue and say we didn’t. I think some of the positions they took in COVID was out of control. I think some of the positions they took with LGBTQ, to me, was out of control. Calling everybody racist, a little too much. Calling everybody a bigot, a little too much, calling and making everybody feel like I’m a bad person. You need to read it too much, my friend.
MEHDI HASAN: These are all straw men, calling everybody a racist. I was very specific. I said Randy Fein’s a racist. I said Donald Trump’s a racist. I said the Republican Party’s indulged racism and white supremacy.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I can stand by those with receipts. Republican Party, that racist —
MEHDI HASAN: If a party institutionally allows for racists to take power and do racist policies, what should I call it?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh my God.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, let me give you one. Can I give you an example?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, so right now — when you came to America, you came in 1990.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yep.
MEHDI HASAN: In 1990, I checked before I came in, George Bush Senior was president.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes.
MEHDI HASAN: And he allowed in 122,000 refugees, of which 4% were from the Middle East. So you and your family — how many came from your family, if you don’t mind me asking?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Me, my mom, my dad, my sister. Four. So four of you? Well, my dad came in ’84 because my parents got a divorce, and then he came back in 1990 separately.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, so three of you came on that — yes, we waited. We went to Germany, from Germany.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I read the story.
MEHDI HASAN: Came in ’99. So you’re part of the lucky 5,000 people in the Middle East.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I feel like I’m the luckiest man alive living in America.
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, and that was George Bush Senior. I’m not a fan of him, but he did that. Sure, he understood the responsibility, as did Reagan.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yep.
MEHDI HASAN: You know, Donald Trump since October has allowed in 6,069 refugees only — not 122,000, only 6,069. And do you know that 6,066 — 99.9% of them — are from white South Africa? Only 3 are Afghan, dude. That’s the numbers.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you serious?
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a fact. Okay, you’re serious? Pull up, Rob? 6,000 refugees, all of them are white South Africans fleeing from an imaginary genocide.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The previous guy brought more people than the 4 presidents combined. He brought in 125,000. He’s trying to say, guys, time out, let’s get jobs for our people.
MEHDI HASAN: We’re talking about refugees. Refugees are different. It’s not about jobs. Refugees are an international obligation.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Like you’re talking H-1B, green card — which one are you talking about?
MEHDI HASAN: Refugees vetted by the vetted program where you’re vetted abroad, you check you’re not a terrorist, all of that stuff. What happened to you? Yes, Biden did it too. He allowed 125,000 people. Trump dropped the cap with Stephen Miller to 7,500. Okay. And since October, he allowed in 6,069, according to the Washington Post.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I want to know where you’re going with this.
MEHDI HASAN: He allowed in only 3 Afghans and 6,066 white people from South Africa. There are 2 things I would say about that. Number 1, that’s racist. You let in — 99.9% of your refugees are white people who are not refugees, and you don’t allow people from Iran, Iraq, Syria. And the second point is Donald Trump won’t allow you into this country, and yet you sit and support — you voted for him 3 times. Many times, Donald Trump would not have allowed little Patrick Bet-David into this country. How do you feel about that?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You’re so funny. A genuine question. You are so funny.
MEHDI HASAN: It’s a genuine question.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: He wouldn’t have let little Patrick —
MEHDI HASAN: No, no Iranians were allowed in this year.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So how would you have gotten — you know what would have happened? We would have waited one more year, two more years for a Democrat to come and let you in. Bush Senior let us in. He was a Republican. Okay, from a better Republican.
MEHDI HASAN: No, but that’s not racist.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s not the point. The part that is the point —
MEHDI HASAN: He did not allow in Iranians.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Issue, Mehdi, is it fair to say issues are — things change. Meaning?
MEHDI HASAN: No, refugees are an obligation that America has always stuck to until Donald Trump.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What is an issue in 2020 may be different than what’s a top 3 issue in 2016, then 2012, then 2000. Plenty. Great. Guess what? What did his base want?
MEHDI HASAN: Who cares what his base wants?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s who we voted for.
MEHDI HASAN: That’s a different argument. You’re moving — why are you talking about is he racist? I’m giving my evidence. He stopped all refugees from coming in from what he called — what did he call them? “Shithole countries.” It’s itself a racist phrase. And then he allowed in white people from Africa.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Would you disagree?
MEHDI HASAN: Some of these places are shithole countries? I don’t think you call entire countries that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You think some places are generalizing about entire places? You think some places are not shit?
MEHDI HASAN: Definition of racism, Patrick, because you don’t seem to think anything’s racist. What do you define as racist? If you say there’s no such thing as racism, fine, but be consistent.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I don’t know if nobody’s a racist. I think it’s a weak argument. I think it’s a weak position to say, “Hey, that guy doesn’t like me and my race and where I’m from.”
MEHDI HASAN: What is your definition of racism? If you don’t have one, say so.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: To be honest with you, if you want this — I think if you call an entire country garbage, I think every single person has an element of racism in there. That’s a different topic. From 1% to 99%.
MEHDI HASAN: You keep moving the goalpost, bro.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: But you’re asking racism — it’s like not liking an ethnicity, not liking a community, not liking an entire country.
MEHDI HASAN: Is that what you’re looking for? Yeah, if he says we’re going to have white people in and not “shithole country” people in, that’s racist. Yes, I think that’s racist. If that’s not racist, I don’t know what is. 99.9% of refugees are white South Africans.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Come on. Do you want to —
MEHDI HASAN: Okay, Rob, can you do me a favor? He calls all Somalis low IQ and garbage.
The DEI and Qualifications Debate
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Just the stuff that you’re saying right now — it’s all true. Can you pull up Biden’s administration? Who was the guy that was the transgender that we’re supposed to lead?
MEHDI HASAN: That’s what you’re going to? When I quote the president making racist remarks, you’ve got no comeback?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Wait a minute. What’s the argument of DEI with you that massively failed? Are you supportive of DEI?
MEHDI HASAN: I don’t know what’s your definition of DEI.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you supportive of DEI? Don’t play.
MEHDI HASAN: This is not right-wing bingo. No, no. Your words mean nothing to me. I’m from outside the right-wing media, James.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I talk to guys on the left-wing side. Who do you think I talk to? You think I just talk to right-wing people?
MEHDI HASAN: No, but the way you say DEI and “the transgender guy from Biden” — this is like right-wing. Is this a good pick? Yeah, Rachel Levine — I interviewed her on my show.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Was she phenomenal at what she did?
MEHDI HASAN: I’m sure she was very good at her job. So you think —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What’s that got to do with Trump being racist towards Somalis?
MEHDI HASAN: Patrick, you need to read the book. Wait a minute, because in the book I deal with people like you.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is what you’re deflecting.
MEHDI HASAN: You are deflecting.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is not deflecting, guys.
MEHDI HASAN: Donald Trump says all Somalis are garbage, low IQ people.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Allow this to come through.
MEHDI HASAN: Rachel Levine — I’m going to answer your question. Rob, I’m going to read the second paragraph. Levine is a professor of pediatrics and psychiatry at Penn State College of Medicine, previously served as a Pennsylvania physician general. So I think Rachel Levine is more qualified to work in the health department than Robert f*ing Kennedy Jr. — who has zero qualifications. You think RFK was hired for his medical qualifications?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you think —
MEHDI HASAN: No, no, Patrick. Do you think RFK Jr. was hired for his medical qualifications?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, do you know how many people previous to him were doctors?
MEHDI HASAN: Do you know, was RFK hired for his medical credentials? Yes or no?
PATRICK BET-DAVID: RFK was hired because he was making —
MEHDI HASAN: Because Rachel Levine is a professor of pediatrics.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Wait a minute, but are you saying RFK is not qualified to be health secretary?
MEHDI HASAN: No, by a mile. By a mile. He doesn’t even understand —
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You take a transgender to be this job, then you think transgender people don’t have intelligence?
MEHDI HASAN: No, no, I’ve got a new attack.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, you see what you’re doing? You just went — you see what you’re doing? You’re playing. See, the difference — so you and I — no, I didn’t go to Oxford and wouldn’t repay 24/7 to see this as my life.
MEHDI HASAN: Evidence of Trump’s racism, and you said, “Rob, pull up a transgender woman.” That’s what happened. Everyone watched you do it. But I said Trump allowed in 99% white people.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: The previous guy picked people because of color. If there is any party that’s racist, it was the previous guy, because they kept saying about that — “Black this, Black that, Black this, this many females, this many transgenders.” And by the way, Hollywood — you want to go to Hollywood, what standards they created? Do you remember the Hollywood standards in order to win an Oscar?
MEHDI HASAN: It’s not true. Can you please pull that up? Elon Musk, your partner — it has been debunked a million times. A million times.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What time are we going right now?
MEHDI HASAN: I’ve got a flight to catch soon.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s what I’m saying.
One-Word Answers and Closing Remarks
MEHDI HASAN: This is an important conversation because I need concede that 99.9% white refugees from South Africa is a racist policy. Zero. Not allowing people in from Afghanistan and Syria.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Next time you come in, don’t book a flight afterwards so we can go 4 hours, because I’m enjoying this.
MEHDI HASAN: Next time you’re coming on my show, we all heard you agree to my invitation. I hereby invite Patrick Bet-David. You can bring Rob with him if you need support.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Bring Rob with you. So funny. But we’ll have you on. We’ll have a good time. Let me wrap it up with some one-word answers, and then let’s go from there. You ready? Yeah, okay, since you already brought him up, I’ll bring it up. So I’ll give you a name.
MEHDI HASAN: Oh, Rob has just proved me right, by the way. 2 of 4 DEI standards. If you don’t have this, it’s not something you have to tick some boxes.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you mean, 2 or 4 DEI standards? Pull up the standard. Yeah, you have to have 2 or 4. They even said you have to have an underrepresented racial ethnic groups, an ensemble cast of at least 30% represent from 2 underrepresented. Some of them even disability.
MEHDI HASAN: First of all, diversity is a good thing, especially on— stop it. I know you don’t like that, and it’s a bad word. The word is a bad word. Your people are like clutching their pearls.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do you know why I’m talking to you? Do you know why I’m talking to you? Do you know why I’m talking to you?
MEHDI HASAN: Because you needed to hear from me that you wouldn’t be allowed into America if Trump was president.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know why I’m talking to you?
MEHDI HASAN: You would have to come in illegally. That’s why.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Do your shtick. I’ll let you finish and then I’ll say— Do you know why I’m talking to you? Why do you think I’m talking to you?
MEHDI HASAN: Please tell me.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Because you’re good at what you do. I appreciate that. That’s why you’re here. I appreciate it. Imagine if I said, “Hey Rob, moving forward, listen, we need 3 disabled, 2 black, 4 gay, 5 this.”
MEHDI HASAN: I know you need to tell your audience.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, I’m not talking to you.
MEHDI HASAN: In fact, the person who does that is Hegseth right now. He’s literally blocking Black women and women from becoming generals and admirals.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: You are so obsessed with Trump. Just ask him for a job, bro. Just go and say, “Can I be part of this freaking cabinet?” He wouldn’t give it to you because I’m brown. I’m almost thinking you are so obsessed. It’s like these girls that are so in love with somebody secretly, it’s like it’s infatuated.
MEHDI HASAN: I love that’s the only argument you have.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can I go? No, you lost this one, but it’s okay.
MEHDI HASAN: No, I didn’t, because technically you wouldn’t be sitting here if Trump was president.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do you agree to? I’m going to sell your book like no one’s ever sold.
MEHDI HASAN: I love it. You are great.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Go buy this book. I want to say something nice about it.
MEHDI HASAN: I’m going to say you’re a great salesman.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: By the way, the biggest part about this thing is I am so proud. I am so proud that we converted another socialist into capitalist. That is probably the proudest moment to somebody like my own. You did, and I give you credit. I’m so proud of you that you’re publicly now capitalist and you’re creating jobs. You can be a capitalist.
Can we do the one-word answers?
MEHDI HASAN: Yes, please.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: All right. Tommy Robinson?
MEHDI HASAN: Bigot.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Nigel Farage?
MEHDI HASAN: Overrated.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Sadiq Khan?
MEHDI HASAN: Underrated.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Ilhan Omar?
MEHDI HASAN: Patriot.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: AOC?
MEHDI HASAN: Presidential.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Interesting. JD Vance?
MEHDI HASAN: Fraud.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Marco Rubio?
MEHDI HASAN: Little.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Little Trump, little, little Marco.
MEHDI HASAN: I got you. I want to quote my man Trump.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Respect, respect. Although Marco Rubio could be your president, by the way. Newsom?
MEHDI HASAN: Slick.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Interesting. Musk?
MEHDI HASAN: Idiot.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Bezos?
MEHDI HASAN: Spineless. Spineless. What’s the point of having f you money if you never say f you? Just rolled over for Trump. He doesn’t like Trump. I prefer the people who love Trump. I prefer the true believers. Yeah, these people who just hate Trump privately but roll over for him, can’t stand them.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Spencer Pratt. Joe Rogan?
MEHDI HASAN: Enigma. Yeah, I don’t know what to make of him. Sometimes I’m like, interesting. Sometimes I’m like, what an idiot.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Have you guys ever done anything?
MEHDI HASAN: No, I’ve never done anything.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, you would do it though.
MEHDI HASAN: Would I go on Joe Rogan’s show? There’s a time when I said 100% yes. Now maybe. I’ve come on PBD.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, I want to reach new audience. Why did you say you wouldn’t go? You said to Bassem you wouldn’t go on a bunch of different podcasts.
MEHDI HASAN: Yeah, I didn’t say I wouldn’t. I don’t go on Fox. I don’t go on Fox. Maybe I should change everything. I’ve tried to have a hygiene rule. I talk about it in the book. Maybe I’ve just abandoned—
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I think you should go everywhere. I think you should. It’s a tricky argument. There’s pros and cons. What’s the con?
MEHDI HASAN: The cons are platforming people who don’t deserve the legitimacy of mainstream platforms. You’re such a big deal, like we shouldn’t go into all these other places because if I go on Fox, I’m basically telling people that’s a legitimate outlet. I believe it’s a propaganda channel. I don’t want to be part of that.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Bibi?
MEHDI HASAN: Criminal.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Biden?
MEHDI HASAN: A criminal.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Hillary Clinton?
MEHDI HASAN: Annoying.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’ll finish with that one. So we’ll finish with Hillary Clinton. She got a lot of credit, folks. This was a good conversation. Thank you for having me. Go order his book — Win Every Argument.
MEHDI HASAN: Win Every Argument: The Art of Debating, Persuading, and Public Speaking. I’ve even persuaded Patrick today he needed to be an illegal immigrant to get into Trump’s America.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: I enjoy talking to you. I appreciate you coming.
MEHDI HASAN: I appreciate you having me on. Thank you. Thank you, brother.
PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes, take care, everybody. Bye-bye.
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