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Home » Transcript of John Mearsheimer Vs Yoram Hazony on Israel vs. Iran – Debate

Transcript of John Mearsheimer Vs Yoram Hazony on Israel vs. Iran – Debate

Read the full transcript of political scientist John Mearsheimer Vs Israeli philosopher Yoram Hazony on Israel vs. Iran – Debate, moderated by UnHerd’s Freddie Sayers (Jun 17, 2025).

Listen to the audio version here:

Freddie Sayers: We are on day five of the Israel-Iran conflict. And already there seems to be two completely different understandings of what is going on that seem unbridgeably divided. In one camp, this is understood as the brave and lonely Israeli government necessarily defending itself from a neighbor that is hell-bent on its destruction, and in fact, doing the world’s dirty work by taking out dangerous nuclear capabilities of a regime in Tehran that is a threat to the whole world, as usual, being greeted with condemnation instead of applause. That’s one view.

The opposite view is that a reckless government in Israel, hell-bent on its own political survival, is adding a new front to an already shameful destruction in Gaza, causing havoc, threatening world peace, and in fact, being given a free pass by a morally weak West. That’s the alternative extreme view.

So how should we try to make sense of it today? Instead of offering a fiery debate between two opposing sides, flame-throwing and insulting each other, we thought we’d find the very best, most eloquent and interesting, subtle spokespeople for each side and talk to them in sequence.

First, we’re going to talk to the world-famous Professor John Mearsheimer. This is someone who describes himself as a realist, someone who has been very vocal and influential in understanding the Ukraine-Russia conflict and has been a searing critic of Israel. He’s written whole books about what he calls the Israel lobby. He feels Israel’s influence on the United States is much too strong. And we felt that he would be an interesting person to put this conflict into context from that perspective.

Then we’re going to talk to Professor Yoram Hazony, also highly influential, both inside Israel, where he is resident and has lived most of his life, but also inside the United States and Europe, because as the founder of the national conservatism movement that now holds conferences across the world, he is really a big inspiration for people inside MAGA, inside the Trump movement and inside nationalist conservative movements across Europe.