Here is the transcript of Indian politician, author, and former diplomat and public intellectual Dr. Shashi Tharoor’s interview on Al Arabiya English, (May 9, 2025).
On India-Pakistan Tensions
INTERVIEWER: Let’s get more analysis now. We can speak to Dr. Shashi Tharoor, Indian Congress Leader and Chairperson of the Parliamentary Standing Committee for External Affairs. He joins us from Thiruvananthapuram. Thank you very much indeed for joining us. Dr. Tharoor, let me just start by asking you a very simple question. Are India and Pakistan on the brink of all out war?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: I certainly hope not. Certainly India has no interest in that whatsoever. All India wanted to do was to make it very clear that people from Pakistan can’t just come across the border, kill innocent civilians who are just enjoying a tourist holiday and walk back across without having to pay a price for it.
So all India did was react in self defense to a terrorist outrage. And India did so in an extremely careful and calibrated manner and making sure they struck only known terrorist bases and headquarters, did so only at night when there were likely to be no civilians wandering around the streets. And did so while very carefully avoiding striking any government or military installations in Pakistan. Very clearly signaling that this was not the first salvo in a protracted war, but rather a one off reprisal for a terrorist attack.
Sadly, Pakistan chose to overreact. They were severe artillery barrages across the line of control, killing 19 Indian civilians and hospitalizing 59 people with grave injuries. India only retaliated, also in kind, with artillery shells. But then when Pakistan decided to target Indian military installations by sending drones and missiles across, they were stopped and intercepted by Indian air defense and India in retaliation attacked Pakistani air defense.
Now again, it’s very, very clear that India is not escalating, it is merely reacting. If Pakistan chooses to stop its unnecessary provocations, India will not act. I’m quite sure about that. There is no proactive military engagement coming from the Indian side beyond the attacks in reprisal to the terrorism. Nothing at all.
On Civilian Casualties
INTERVIEWER: Okay, Dr. Tharoor, you raised lots of points there. Let me pick up on one of them. You say India’s response has been precise and restrained. But according to the reports we’ve seen, children are amongst the dead in the attacks in Pakistan, a mosque was destroyed. I mean, can we really say they’ve been precise and restrained?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: These are extremely well known terror bases. The headquarters of the Jaish e Mohammed in Bahabalpur and the headquarters of the Lashkar e Taiba in Muritke. These are not innocent places. If there were sadly any civilians staying there, there were families of terrorist leaders or those training to be terrorists.
I’m really sorry to say this because we have absolutely no interest in behaving like terrorists and killing civilians. There is no question in my mind that India would have been very happy to merely dismantle the terrorist infrastructure rather than even take a single human life. But the fact is that these are places known and listed not just by Indian authorities, but by the international intelligence community.
The agencies concerned are prescribed on the sanctions list of the United Nations Sanctions Committee. They are in no way innocent places. Schools or mosques or homes. These are unfortunately places where terrorists are trained, financed, equipped and dispatched to kill innocent civilians in India. That’s what India was reacting to.
On Evidence of Pakistani Involvement
INTERVIEWER: And Dr. Tharoor, the people we speak to in Pakistan counter your narrative. And you’re quoted in the newspapers as saying, this is a state, we’re talking about Pakistan, that sponsors terrorists, terrorism in the most vile manner. So you’re suggesting the Pakistani government sponsors these organizations. I don’t know what you think the motive would be for Pakistan to do such a thing. They’re also asking me every time I put this question, what’s the evidence? What’s the evidence, sir?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Well, as far as evidence is concerned, don’t forget that Pakistan is a master of denial. They denied having anything to do with the Mumbai attacks that killed 170 people on 26/11, 2008, until one of the terrorists was caught alive. And the Pakistanis had to admit that he and everything he said came from them. They deny even knowing where Osama bin Laden was until he was found in a military encampment not far from a Pakistani army base inside Pakistan. This is the Pakistani route. It’s constantly “Show us the evidence.”
I mean, the fact is there is enough circumstantial evidence and there are intelligence intercepts on the basis of which India is acting. And India has absolutely no other reason to do this. Let’s understand something very clearly. India is a status quo power. It wants nothing that Pakistan has. It is focused on growing its economy, improving its high technology, providing a future for its young people. It is entirely happy to be left alone by Pakistan. And it will leave Pakistan alone.
Pakistan is a revisionist power. It claims territory India holds. It is a bigoted power that wishes to take over parts of India on the grounds of the people living there happen to share the same religion as the Pakistanis. Well, there are 200 million Indian Muslims who share the same religion as the Pakistanis. Do they want to take them all over? It’s a preposterous approach that the Pakistanis have been adopting.
They have been deploying terrorists for 30 years in pursuit of their desire to, quote, unquote, “Bleed India by a thousand cuts” and to capture the territory of Kashmir. They’re not going to get it. They have failed for 30 years, they’re going to fail for another 30. Then the sad, sad lesson that they must learn and have failed to learn is that terrorism is not the answer. Killing innocent civilians will invite reprisals. And we are scaling up the reprisals with each outrage.
In 2008, after Mumbai, India tried diplomacy, tried grey listing, Pakistan tried blacklisting the agencies concerned in the sanctions Committee.
Some years later, when there was an attack in Pathankot, the Prime Minister even invited the Pakistani intelligence to join the investigation of the attack. They came and they went back to Pakistan and said, oh, the Indians did it to themselves. That was the last straw.
The next terrorist attack, India sent a squad across to attack the very base from which the attack had come. The next terrorist attack in Pulwama, India did an airstrike, just one. The next terrorist attack, this time in Pehogam and Kashmir, India hit 9. How much longer do the Pakistanis want to play this game? India is prepared to play it, but India is much happier to be left alone. And that’s what we would urge the Pakistanis to do.
On Operation Sindor
INTERVIEWER: As the conversation goes on, I’d like to talk to you about diplomatic efforts to de-escalate the situation, but one thing you put on Twitter, I just want to ask you about it because I was curious myself. You’ve appraised on the application X, the code name Operation Sindor, which has been launched by India. You’ve said it’s a brilliant name. Just tell us why it’s significant, why you think it’s such an appropriate name for this military operation.
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Sindhur is the vermilion reddish mark that women who are married put right there in the middle of their foreheads when they part their hair. And the image that was seared into the nation’s consciousness after the terrorist attack in Pelham was of a newly wedded, now newly widowed bride on her honeymoon, kneeling disconsolately by the body of her slain husband, weeping.
In other words, a terrorist attack had wiped the sindur off her forehead because only married women wear it. It was a very emotive, emotional term to remind people of what had happened and why this action was necessary, that innocent civilians, including this young woman, and by the way, a few other women who are widowed in the process of the same attack, had all experienced.
I might add that at the end of that, there is also undoubtedly the evocative thought that the color of the sindur is not that different from the color of blood and that was what was spilled by the terrorists in our country. I thought it was a very, very evocative, emotional and powerful choice to name the operation that way.
On Diplomatic Solutions
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so thank you for helping us decipher that. That’s a very interesting explanation. I’d like to ask you now about efforts to broker some sort of solution before we start talking about where this might head to and look at all the chilling options. Bearing in mind that you’re both nuclear powers, let’s try to be optimistic for a moment. In a grave crisis there is sometimes an opportunity, an opportunity to iron out some of these nearly 80 year old issues that exist between India and Pakistan. Do you have any optimism that we could perhaps turn this into an opportunity?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Look, first of all, as far as the present crisis is concerned, there is no need to call upon India to exercise restraint because India is already exercising restraint. It has announced it will not initiate a single military action, but it will react if there is military action imposed upon it. So all the international community needs to do is to get Pakistan to behave is to tell them to stop attacking. The moment they stop attacking the moment they can find any excuse to claim their honor is satisfied and that would be the end of that.
India has no desire to prolong this. As I said, we are first of all a status quo power. We want nothing from them. Second, we are focused on our own growth and we have no desire to be distracted from that. We are not interested in going to war. But if Pakistan wants war, they will get it. And I think very few people doubt which of the two countries has greater staying power in a war.
So that’s on the present situation. I think the ball is entirely in Pakistan’s court. They can stop any prospect of increased conflict. Now India has not put a foot on the escalatory ladder. Pakistan has. So that’s the first and most important thing to understand on the larger question.
No sir, we are not going to allow terrorists to allow Pakistan to get what they want, which is to internationalize the dispute and to provoke a negotiation or a mediation to get them what they want. What terrorists have failed to achieve, they are not going to get. It’s as simple as that. We could have talked to the Pakistanis. There were many, many occasions we’ve tried to talk to them. There were the famous back channel negotiations of four years between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and General Musharraf. The truth remains, however, that every time these processes of talking have been ended by a Pakistani terrorist Attack. No one in India has any inclination to talk to the Pakistanis while they’re pointing a gun at our heads.
INTERVIEWER: So who’s going to talk to and…
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: We can see about what weather and weather and about what we might talk one day.
On International Mediation
INTERVIEWER: Not now, Dr. Tharoor. Who can talk to the Pakistanis and talk them down from this situation and help de-escalate. Who would they listen to? Because it doesn’t sound like there’s a huge amount of appetite in Washington to get even the slightest bit involved in this conflict.
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: So it seems, though Secretary of State Rubio did say that he was going to speak to both countries foreign ministers and national security advisers. And if he’s done so, I’m sure that the only message he would give is we don’t want to see this getting out of hand.
The Chinese issued a very interesting statement. China is Pakistan’s, quote, unquote, “all weather friend.” And Pakistan has for some years now been a de facto client state of China. China controls 30% of Pakistan’s debt, on top of which you have the big China Pakistan economic corridor running through the country, which is of some economic value to China as well.
So one would assume that that is one patron the Pakistanis would listen to. China has issued a very interesting statement saying that both India and Pakistan are their neighbors. They don’t want to see a war in their neighborhood between neighbors and they would like there to be peace and understanding and calm. And now if China gives that message to Pakistan, that might be something Islamabad would be well inclined to heed.
INTERVIEWER: Okay. And in terms of sentiment towards the United States in India, I want to ask you about a piece in the Times of India online edition. It says, quote, the U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance urges restraint, sparking outrage. That’s the headline of an article and it suggests that India feels backstabbed by the United States. And I just wonder whether that was a perception you felt and whether it’s a widely shared feeling.
India’s Position on Military Restraint
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: As I said, I haven’t actually seen that article, so I don’t know what the author intended, but to my mind we have already announced restraint. We have made it very clear that our operation was in retaliation for a terrorist outrage and that was it. In fact, the word used in the public briefing was it was non-escalatory in nature that India was not intending to escalate further. So you can cancel restraint all you like, you’re preaching to the converted.
On the other hand, tell the Pakistanis to exercise restraint and that will be the end of that. It’s Pakistan that somehow feels an obligation to somehow react further. Having already initiated this problem with a terror attack, they want to continue to fire back in India and as I say, if they do, India will have to give it back to them. We have our own self-respect.
But as long as Pakistan decides that they’re not anxious to have an all-out war, they will not be one. If, however, the Pakistani army, which is deeply unpopular in its own country, has decided that they actually do want a war in order to shore up their faltering and tottering image as the savior of the nation, then of course the Pakistani military will get what it wants. It gets what it wants in Pakistan anyway and India is not going to lie back and take it lying down.
Nuclear Policies and Escalation Risks
INTERVIEWER: Okay? I mean the alternatives to discussion, diplomacy, mediation are pretty chilling. I mean there is scope here for escalation, the scope here for miscalculation. Up until this point, has there been any saber rattling, nuclear saber rattling I should say, on either side that you’ve detected?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Well, they can’t be on India’s side because India has a declared, published and long established policy of no first use of nuclear weapons. So India would never rattle any sabres of a nuclear kind because that is the Indian policy. Pakistan on the other hand, does not have such a policy and has implied that it would be willing to use nuclear weapons. So again, the war is in Pakistan’s court.
You do understand that equivalence between the two countries on any of these grounds is completely false. You have a terrorist providing state and you have a terrorist victim state. You have a state that has refused to abjure nuclear weapons on their first use. You have another state that has absolutely refused to use nuclear weapons first. So I mean there is no equivalence, there is no comparison as far as I’m concerned on these matters. What really applies right now is the great importance of persuading Pakistan to dial down its own misbehavior.
Future Predictions
INTERVIEWER: Okay, so where do you see this heading to? What are your predictions, Dr. Tharoor?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Well, I’d like to predict that at some point people in other capitals will tell Pakistan, you fired enough shells, you’ve killed enough Indians, your honor is satisfied. Layoff. And if capitals don’t say that to Pakistan and they don’t say it firmly enough, and I mean particularly Beijing, then indeed all bets are off. And you might well see Pakistan being tempted to escalate for very short term military reasons in their country.
I certainly hope it doesn’t come to that because in the long term there’s no way they can gain from such a conflict, they’ve already earned the opprobrium of the world as a terror providing nation as the hosts of Osama bin Laden, as the people who spawned the Taliban, and having, as Hillary Clinton evocatively said, having nurtured vipers in their backyard, they’ve been bitten by the same vipers they’ve nurtured.
This is a country that really, really needs all the goodwill it can get from the rest of the world. And for that reason, what Pakistan needs to do right now is to stop its military provocations. Do not embark on any further misadventures and let this thing die down. India certainly does not want to prolong it.
Political Unity in India
INTERVIEWER: Just last, I mean, would you say in India there’s unanimity on this issue right across the political spectrum? Do all Indians sing from the same song sheet here?
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Very, very strongly so. And in fact, India, I mean, I speak for an opposition party, and the opposition party, the Congress Party, was the first to stand up and say we stand with the government and behind our armed forces in this particular moment of national crisis. We do have domestic political differences. Those will be addressed when the crisis is over.
Right now, we are all united and I see very, very little dissent. Of course, there are people who prefer peace to war. So does any sensible human being on the planet. But when war is thrust upon us, it would only be a coward who refuses to fight back. And we will fight back if it’s thrust upon us.
INTERVIEWER: All right, well, thank you very much indeed for your time. A pleasure talking to you, Dr. Shashi Tharoor. Thank you. Thank you very much for your time, sir.
DR. SHASHI THAROOR: Thank you, Tom.
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