Transcript: Hungary’s Viktor Orbán on Putin vs. Trump – MD MEETS Podcast #5

So the only real big source is nuclear.

So the plan is that in the future 70% of the Hungarian energy will be produced by nuclear and 30% by solar. This is the strategy. But we need technology. Originally we have a Russian-based technology which is good and we can develop it, but it’s not enough.

So I made nuclear deals on how to store the used fuel of nuclear factories. Second, the new SMR, small modular nuclear power stations technology. Everybody’s speaking about that, but it’s not available in Europe.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So he cares about that and is worried that Europe is turning away from nuclear. At least Germany does. What was the topic in that context? Or is it about new nuclear plants?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It was technological. It was technological to give new perspective. From the American point of view, it was understood as a new perspective for the Hungarian economy.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Speaking about…

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Because they have that technology, which means that we will pay for it.

Data Sovereignty and TikTok

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Speaking about technology and tech companies, the American administration just achieved the sale of TikTok US to American shareholders, which I think is very needed in a way because we cannot have that influence in democracies from a country like China. Should the European Union follow that role model? Should TikTok also be sold in the EU to European shareholders or American shareholders?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: In my mind, one of the main issues to be discussed in the future will be the so-called data sovereignty. Sovereignty has various levels. So I think we need a data sovereignty of the Western world. That’s fine, together with the Americans.

Then we need data sovereignty at the European level to defend our own interests. Then we need data sovereignty at the national level. And then we need data sovereignty on your personal level to defend your privacy.

So we have to build up that kind of concept. It’s a new concept. Nothing has been done. We are just arranging small pieces of that huge cake. We should look at the whole cake and manage and regulate it in a normal way. We are very much at the beginning of that.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But should then TikTok Europe be sold to European or international shareholders, non-Chinese shareholders?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You know, the question in Europe is always about whether we are unified or not. If the big guys—Germany, France, Italy—are unified on that issue, we can do it. But if we are not on the same line, same mood, don’t do it.

Understanding Donald Trump

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Okay. What would you say is the biggest surprise that you discovered in the personality of Donald Trump? What do people get wrong about him?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Oh, I know him back to 2015. At that time I was absolutely sure that we need him. I mean the Western world. So that was the reason I was supporting him. Small Hungary, I was loudly on his side against Hillary Clinton because I was convinced that the major problem of the politics in the Western world is that it’s bureaucratic.

So the people think and the leaders think that the countries are led by institutions and the job of the leaders is to manage the institutions, which is not the case. When things are excellently going well, probably right. But when things are going badly, you need a person, a leader.

And my understanding was in the middle of the previous decade that we are in big trouble. So we need real leaders. And he was a totally different kind of non-bureaucratic character than the other leaders who competed with him.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Anti-politician, almost.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Almost. But it’s good sometimes.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Who are the kind of European leaders that he respects apart from yourself? And I think Alex Stubb in Finland is also a European leader with whom he has a close contact.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: What else? Does he respect many of them? They respect him tactically because America is big, the President is powerful, it’s better to respect him. But the real question is who respects him when he is not in power?

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Very few.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Very few.

Trump as the Man of Peace

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You once said Trump can make peace. And it seems that it is also your goal to make peace between Russia and Ukraine and with that, in a way, between Russia and Europe. Do you think there is a realistic chance that you can achieve that?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, you put together at least three questions. First is: Donald Trump is the man of peace. No question. If he would have been in office when the war erupted between Russia and Ukraine, one day the war would be over, or even it would be impossible to have broken out.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: That’s…

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I’m absolutely sure. That’s first. Second, because he thinks that business makes something good for the people and war is against the business, therefore all the wars should stop as soon as possible. That’s why he says it. It’s not because of his ego, it’s because he seriously thinks: stop the war, make business, life will be better. Why don’t we do that? It’s so simple.

And third, he has a chance, if anyone does, to be a good instrument to make peace between the Russians and the Ukrainians. If he is not, nobody else is.

The New Pacifism of the Right

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: I’m surprised because for decades pacifism—so the idea that you can achieve peace without deterrence, without military power—was a very leftist idea. Pacifism was a left idea. Now it seems that more and more conservatives are adopting that idea. It seems that almost only the right is using these pacifist paradigms. Is that correct?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, I’m not a pacifist. I’m not… Probably I have some attitude that to be, to live as a peaceful arrangement is far better than war. No question of that. But strength, military, is necessary to maintain the peace.

So I’m not a foolish guy who says that if everybody would improve their soul and throw away the weapons, the globe would be a happy place. It’s not true. For peace you need strength, deterrence. Sometimes it’s necessary, especially because there are so many dangerous nuclear weapons all around. So we have to somehow minimize the risk of erupting any conflict of that. And you need strength.

I am rather arguing on the basis of the security of our nation, security of the Hungarians, security of the Europeans. And I’m very much surprised… What I have seen just now in Germany, and I don’t know whether I can speak about it, but I may say I’m astonished.

The major lessons I got from foreign policy when I was a young guy, from Otto Lambsdorff and Helmut Kohl, both of them always started to explain foreign policy: “You have to understand that peace is the most important thing. If there is no peace, there is no future for Europe.”

So never give up any position for peace for Europe, because Europe is a dangerous place. Two world wars and so on. So we have to insist on everything against the culture of war, against the risk of war and so on and so on.

And now in Germany, I try to follow the Chancellor. You know, war speeches are coming out from Germany. I’m simply astonished.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But isn’t it that for peace based on negotiations, you need two sides who respect the principles of a rules-based society? It doesn’t seem like that.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yeah, that’s true.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Putin has a different agenda.

The Importance of Communication During War

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yeah, that’s true. But to keep open the communication channels is vital. Whatever war is going on, even those who are against each other, communication is necessary. You know, if you would like to kill, totally extinct, may I say, your rival at the end of the war, as the world tried to do with Hitler and Germany anyway, okay, there is no need to negotiate.

But if you think that after the war there will be a common life, even the patterns of fabric will be different. But you know, we live together. You have to negotiate even during the war.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: When did you speak last to Vladimir Putin?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: By phone? Two weeks ago. Personally, I don’t know, but it was public.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Do you think he’s interested in negotiating a ceasefire? A peace?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yes.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Why?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Because war has a cost by human lives. Huge, thousands killing each other, dead, tortured families. So it’s, you know, Slavic people, merciless, good fighters against each other. It has a big price. So sooner or later, they would like to reduce the price as much as they can.

Second, they would like to reach their goals. If they are able to reach their goals, there is no sense to continue the war.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: I mean, you—

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The question is, what are the goals? You know, that’s the real question.

Russia’s Territorial Gains and Losses

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You basically said several times we have to come to terms with him because Russia is winning the war anyway. On the other hand, it does not necessarily look like a big success. I mean, over the last 12 months, he has gained approximately 1% of additional territory, but is losing on average 7,000 people per week. So would you say that the pressure is also getting higher on his side to come to terms in the foreseeable future?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: That question is an approach to the conflict from the point of view of Putin and the Russians. But it’s not my point. Okay, my point—

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What is your point?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: We should have an approach to the war based on the European interest. What is our interest? I’m not interested in Putin is winning or losing or whatsoever. You know, I’m interested in the future of the European people, among them the future of the Hungarians.

And the outcome of the war should be a more secured world than it was, a more secured Europe than it was. So what I’m interested in, to create a new security system. Is it losing or winning for Putin, I don’t care. But a system which is good for us. That’s what I’m arguing for.

Hungary’s Historical Experience with Russia

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: That’s interesting because you are very often accused, like the Trojan horse of the Russians or the Trojan horse of Putin, whereas other people are saying here in Hungary, we, the Hungarians, just hate the Russians more intelligently than the rest of Europe. What’s your point on that?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It’s rude. Basically, don’t hate anybody. But we have experiences, and we have experiences with the Russians, so we know who they are. In the last 150 years, they attacked us several times. Once we did so anyway, badly, but we did anyway. The Second World War, together with you.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: When we were standing on the terrace previously, you said on the left side, where the Germans. On the right side, the Russians. Basically, you know them both.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Absolutely. So we know the Russians and we know that they will remain here. So if somebody think that the Russians will disappear from the European politics, it’s just a stupid idea.

If you are a Hungarian, it’s obvious that three centers of power will always remain around you. One is Berlin, it’s your country. The other one is Russia. The third one is Istanbul, is Turkey. So this is the three, this is a triangle which defines how Hungary’s safe or not.

So therefore I have to find a good solution to all three directions, which is a winning situation for the Hungarians. That’s what I’m working for. You know, Trojan horse argument is a very simple minded and primitive. So if you don’t have a serious argument to discuss the war, let’s say this man has a different opinion than mine. So he is the Trojan horse of Putin. It’s very primitive.

Hungary’s Role as a Mediator

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But if you are a mediator, you need in a way to understand both sides and also you need to find a compromise. Where are the limits of your willingness to compromise?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, so let’s define what could be the role of Hungary. Hungary, 10 million country, GDP as it is. Army as big as it is, not very much big anyway. So I don’t think that we will be the peacemaker. What we can do is to be a good instrument in the hands of those who would like to make peace.

I would like to be a good instrument in the hand of Brussels, but they are pro-war. I am ready to have the German Chancellor if I can to make a peace, but he’s pro-war. I try to be as helpful as I can to the American President. He’s pro-peace, so I can be.

And therefore, you know, I know where is the situation, the place of Hungary, the Prime Minister of Hungary. And knowing that I try to be just useful, that’s what I’m doing.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But would you accept that Putin not only keeps Crimea, but also Donbass?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It’s not my job. You know what, I’m arguing for peace. My point is—

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But I mean philosophically, that would basically mean that he has achieved his goals. That would be an encouragement to go further. Could you imagine that he would then stop just because he has achieved these goals? Or would you think it’s possible that he one day even would go to other territories, would expand further, that even Russians in Hungary again could be an option?

The Reality of Military Power Balance

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, so in my mind your question is two questions. The first is that whether they will occupy Donetsk or not. If miracle will not happen, they will. This is the reality. Whether you like it or not, this is the case. That’s the first.

Second, what is the power balance between the Russians and Europeans? With all my humble and respectful approach, I think it’s ridiculous to say that the Russians will attack the European Union or NATO simply because they are not strong enough. We are far stronger than they are.

The European Union, more than 400 million people. Russia is 140 or something like that. Our GDP rocketing the sky, Russia is down. If you put together 27 countries of European Union military capacities, we are far stronger than the Russians. The Russians are not able to occupy the territories of Ukraine for more than three years. How are we arguing in Europe that we are weaker than Russia and we are terrified? Simply not true.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: I could not agree more. If NATO would really go in with all possibilities, the financial power and the military power of NATO alone is big enough. If you take the Ramstein coalition, it’s even stronger. So I fully take your point. But if that’s right, then why is our position so soft? Basically, why do we then not strengthen the attacked country of Ukraine more in order to push back on Putin? We allow him a lot to gain.

The Nuclear Question

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The answer is more simple probably than you think, because the nuclear weapons. So the real intellectual challenge ahead of us, how somebody can beat a nuclear power never happened. And how a nuclear power can win a conventional war. This is the question from the Russians.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But do you believe in the escalation theory? You think that if we go stronger that he will escalate nuclear?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Absolutely.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: The counter argument would be he escalates if he wants to escalate, it’s not up to us.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yeah, but—

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But he escalates if we let him go.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: But nobody would like to destroy his own country. So if Russia would use nuclear power against Europe, that would mean that they destroy Russia, not just Europe, because the response is obvious. So my point is that nobody would like to involve into the escalation of the nuclear.

But if a nuclear power is losing a conventional war, I’m absolutely sure, regardless which country we are speaking about, the nuclear risk is on the table immediately. So therefore my point is don’t escalate. Don’t show your strength on the front line. That’s what the Germans are arguing, that show more strength on the front line. No, no, no, no. Don’t do that.

My point is that because escalation and the World War Three is a risk, we have to show our strength at the negotiation table, not on the front line. But the precondition of showing strength at the negotiation table—first you have to negotiate, otherwise you cannot show your strength.

Hungary’s Place in Western Civilization

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Let me imagine for a second a hypothetical scenario that Trump basically agrees with Putin on a Yalta kind of deal to basically separate Europe in two parts. One Russian part, one Western part. So where would Hungary be? Would you try to be neutral somewhere in the middle? Would you be, let’s say then a Russian protectorate or an American ally?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, Hungary is part of the Western civilization. We have Eastern origin, good relation with Chinese and Mongolians and the Turkish, so the Koreans on an ethnic basis anyway. It’s a strange story. How do Hungarians have relatives in all those areas?

But regardless of those genetic facts, we belong to the West. We are part of the Western Roman Catholic civilization. That’s where we belong to. And the integration form, NATO and European Union, we would not like to quit. We would like to stay. Even if we have a problem in Brussels, we would never leave it. We would like to repair it, we would like to reform it. So no question that Hungary’s part is West.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: If also hypothetical, Putin would offer you Transcarpathia, where a lot of Hungarian people are living. Would you take it?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You have done as Germans on other territories and we lost finally. So experience shows clearly, don’t make that adventure so simply.

The Path to Peace

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: How likely do you think is a solution, a peace deal in the foreseeable future? Is that war lasting for years or is it a question of months?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I think we are very close to have a peace.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: And what does it need in order to get it?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Unified position of the West.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: That means a transatlantic—

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Transatlantic position, yeah. I mean, what’s going on now? The American president is in favor of the peace. Europeans do not or don’t. So the Europeans, whatever they are saying, you know, European politics intellectually is very sophisticated. But what they are saying basically means that they would not like to have a peace just now. They would like to continue the war.

They think, and they speak about it publicly, that we have to continue the war to support Ukraine more. The situation will improve on the front line and we will have better circumstances or preconditions for negotiation. Wrong. Totally wrong. The situation and the time is better for the Russians than for us. Don’t continue. Stop it as soon as we can.

The Economic Cost of War

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: We have seen the recent corruption affairs in Ukraine. And you just recently called President Zelensky part of a corruption mafia. Isn’t it then a kind of tactical necessity in order to achieve that goal that America and Europe stand behind the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian leadership?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Well, my point is more simple than that. The point is that this war kills European Union economically, financially. What we are doing, not to speak about geopolitics and human dimension, economically and financially is just crazy.

We have burned already 185 billion euros and our intention is to burn even more. So we finance a country which has no chance to win the war, but at the same time there’s a high level of corruption and we don’t have money for the European Union to make a new boost for our economy, which is suffering a lot because of the lack of competitiveness.

What we are doing is irrational. So that mafia issue, I would not like to use it politically. I am using it more as a rational basis. Guys, don’t continue that. Rather try to make a peace as soon as we can. That’s the conclusion of the military mafia of Ukraine as well.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But you’d rather recommend the Americans and the Europeans to be tougher, to be stronger and will that be more credible at the negotiation table?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Correct.

Peace Deal Requirements and European Security

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I think what I would like to focus not on the methodology, tactical side, but the final goal. What is the final goal? The final goal is to have a peace arrangement which stabilize the borders, whether internationally recognized or not. It’s secondary or the legal point of view. But effectively we need a stabilized eastern border of Ukraine. That’s first.

We have to know what kind of weapons Russia will hold on this front line. We have to know what kind of weapons we NATO countries will have on the western part of Ukraine or the western border of Ukraine. And we need definitely a kind of demilitarized zone to make a stable situation.

And then we have to make about what will be the Ukrainian army in the future, who will finance Ukraine, who will rebuild Ukraine. So we have what the energy. Russia will be under sanctions forever or let them back into the trade of energy and others. So many. It’s not just the front line and territory. It’s important. But there are so many issues, let’s say post-war issues, which are also on the table. We should think about it.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Could you imagine to negotiate with Putin a peace deal together with President Trump and let’s say Alex Stubb from Finland as a kind of transatlantic negotiation team?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: That belong to the big guys.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So he’s the big guy, but he needs the Europeans for that, it looks like.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: No, no, the problem is that they don’t need. That’s the problem. Because if the Europeans behaving as we do just now, there will be a deal between the Russians and the Americans on the war and on other issues, trade, world trade, energy and other issues.

So if Europeans would like to be part of their own future, be involved into the negotiations. That’s my advice, if you would. Or we would not like to be the third partner of a negotiation. Let’s open an independent communication channel to Russia. That would be the best.

Let the Americans to negotiate with the Russians and then we Europeans should also negotiate with the Russians and then see whether we can unify the position of the Americans and Europeans. We don’t do that which is irrational.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: And what would be for you the, let’s say, red line? What is the unnegotiable that you need in such a peace deal?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Security guarantees, peace for the future.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Yeah, but that’s very general.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Security guarantee it must be part of it. Security guarantee must be part of it. Of course. But I repeat again, we are not annoyed, we are not frightened at all. We know that Russia is a nuclear power, but on conventional side we are far stronger. Hungary, member of NATO is in a very safe position till the member states devoted to the common security policy.

Hungary’s Position Between America and Europe

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: It seems that although Hungary, your country and you are European kind of mentality wise and conceptually at the moment you’re closer to the Americans than you are to the EU. Is that correct?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: In many dimensions. Not just on security, but other dimensions of the economy also.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What are your big disappointments about Europe?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The cooperation of the countries of the European continent is a fabulous idea. It’s a splendid wanted so. So it’s easy to love.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Would you agree that the idea of a unified Europe is the most compelling political…

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Never, never, never, never, never. Because the main European value is the national sovereignty. The main European value is the national sovereignty.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So you think the whole idea is wrong?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: No, no, of course, of course. What we need is a format how the European countries can cooperate the best which provide better outcome for all of us. And you know, Europe is after the fall of the Roman Empire, two schools or two direction of thinking was developed because the Roman Empire was not replaced by another empire. Nations were created in Europe.

Nations are the reality. So we cannot build up something which is not based on the nations. National sovereignty is a cornerstone of the future of European Union. Let’s look for a system how we can cooperate the best. The system we are cooperating now is failed, is dying out. It’s not good for the members anymore.

But don’t give up the idea of cooperation, but create a totally new architecture for the European Union. We are ready to negotiate on that because we think that what’s going on now is a suppression coming from Brussels. So what they have is an imperialistic approach to build up a European empire. We don’t like it.

Probably the Germans have a different understanding on that because you have a different history. But for Hungarians and other middle-sized nations to lose or limit the national sovereignty, never acceptable. We are proud Hungarians and we would like to remain Hungarians as well in the future.

So what the basic disappointment that was your question is two things. The first is that the European Union was a peace project turned to a war project cooperation targeted to make a more competitive common European market than it will be separately of the member states. The outcome is the stagnation. Now we are destroying our own competitiveness. This is the two main point of disappointment.

Vision for European Cooperation

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: The idea of a economic power Europe that only can strive if it sticks together. Do you buy that or you think that’s also conceptually wrong?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, okay. Hungary is a small country to come up with his own ideas. But I’m hoping that when the discussion will be open, we can contribute to that. We have a system in our mind. So the vision of mine that first concentric circles.

So we need the European continent organized as wide as we can on the military and energy issues. Then the second round, those who would like to join is about the single market. The third, those who would like to join is the eurozone common currency. And then those who would like to even closer cooperate with each other. That’s political unity. And you can decide each country can decide which layer we are part of.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Hungary is blocking European decisions. And it looks like our new German Chancellor Friedrich Merz could be successful in stripping the voting rights of Hungary in the European Council. Would that be the moment when you would leave the European Union?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: No, no, no. But nobody can do that. Just for a very simple reason. Because you could be today and the other one next day. So right of vote will never suspend it in the European Union.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: No way.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: After I’m not blocking anyway the European Union. I just would like to clarify certain things. First, where are our money? What’s going on is totally unfair. Blackmailing for political reasons. Blackmailing Hungary financially. Don’t give the money which belong to Hungary. So I have to fight for that money. Of course, it’s not a blocking something I’m just fighting for. It’s a freedom fight on the Hungarian understanding. That’s first.

The second is migration. We have the fence. We decided not to let anybody who would like to come Hungary without permission we stop them. I don’t know whether the Germans are informed of it, but we are under punishment of Brussels. So we Hungarians have to pay every day 1 million euros because we don’t let the illegal migrants to come to Europe. You know? So it’s absurd.

Hungary as Change Agent in Europe

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Do you see your country and yourself more like an opponent against EU decisions, or do you see yourself more as a change agent in order to improve the European…

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yeah, I’m absolutely sure that Europe as it is failed under this integration process is going on. So the end of the European Union will not come as a dramatic single day. It’s a process, but it’s going on. This integration is going on. We would like to stop it. We would like to reform the European Union.

With the present power structure, we can’t because the European Union institutions basically occupied by leftist, leftist, liberal and EPP parties, which are more leftist now, the central right. So we have to have a change of the power structure. We patriots who are Europeans, but at the same time we are fighting for the sovereignty of our nations. We have to get a majority. That’s what I’m working for. But nevertheless, you could call it opposition.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Yeah, but in that opposition, where is then the limit? There must be a certain point where you’re saying, okay, until that point, but then the EU is not our home any longer. Where would you draw the line? We get back to migration later. But take the different topics that you are concerned about. What is for you, the most important one here and where would you simply…

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Say, okay, it’s difficult to answer to that question because this is not the Hungarian way of thinking. The Hungarian way of thinking, if something is bad, don’t leave it, change it. Occupy and change.

Relationship with Angela Merkel

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: That’s what I’m saying. I have to ask you about your relationship to Angela Merkel. On the one hand, around the migration topic, it was almost your antagonist. Conceptually, the difference couldn’t be bigger. On the other hand, you just received her here in Hungary and you said something like, had Angela Merkel been in power and we had been working together, this war with Putin never had happened. Can you explain that?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Where is your many questions in one basket? Okay, the first of all, I always respect the leader of the Germans. Germany is a big culture. Big, big, big, big civilizational achievement with a big history. Lot of mistakes, but, you know, each of them has mistakes. So I’m very much respectful to the Germans and Germany as they are. They have elected leader. You know, I give the respect. That’s the first. Even I disagree on all the issues because this is the fact.

The second is I respected Angela Merkel for various reasons because she was a very smart and basically nice person. You know, in politics, sometimes it counts. So I like to cooperate with her. We disagree on that. Even she shouted on me anyway sometimes, and that was not good. More than my wife anyway. But that means a lot. Sometimes happen. But anyway, like so she’s tougher than she looks like anyway.

But she is an open minded person, intellectual, never used just power. Because I’m a German, I am powerful. Victor, it’s over. She always tried to say, okay, I’m ready to understand your argument. I have my own, let’s discuss it. So that attitude now it’s not anymore there. So with her it was far easier.

The third thing is that we as intellectuals, we identified where we agree and where we don’t agree. And on migration it was obvious that never in our life it’s impossible. Then I identified that we will never agree on green deal. I was always against that kind of green deal. And to close the nuclear power station, I was always against it.

And the third point, strategically, what is the interest of Europe? What is the relation to Russia? I almost 100% agreed with her. There was moments at the European Council when she was the only one and me who argued on the same platform for peace and cooperation.

So I think I follow what’s going on in Germany. So I’m not a stupid guy, I know what’s going on. And now it’s quite fashionable to say bad things on her. It’s not fair. It’s not fair. She did good things for Germany and good things for Europe and of course some bad things as well. So to be correct or fair is important in politics.

And on the Russian issue, she was right. If she would have been the Chancellor at the moment when the war has broken out, no war, I would say I would, because she would immediately call…

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Putin and one telephone call would have convinced him to stop.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Not but one telephone is just the first one. And then continue and then dialogue and dialogue.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What would have been then the reaction? Less military counteraction or more or what would have been the concept behind this? Convincing.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, let’s use the experiences. She did well at the Minsk. So the war erupted 2000, but the first real dangerous moment was 2014. And she managed very, very well. Now she’s criticized. For me, it’s not fair. It was a good deal. It was a masterpiece. And we have got through the decade to prepare ourselves for a confrontation or to management of the crisis.

And one more point. I try to be as polite as I can to all the Chancellors. I cooperated with five chancellors of Germany and I was there. I have seen, I’m a witness how the Americans pushed the Germans into that war. So don’t forget that it was not your choice. I don’t know how it is interpreted now in Germany. But the war, pro war was not your choice. Even Chancellor Scholz resisted.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But out of which agenda? Why would the Americans have an interest in starting a war?

Germany’s Role in the Ukraine War

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, so just go back to the facts. The German Chancellor fought for weeks and months not to let Germany be involved into that war more and more and more. But the Democratic administration of Biden pushed all of us. Not me, because I resisted and quit. But the Germans pushed into that war.

And I said to Scholz and to everybody on the table that, “Guys, if you accept the pressure coming from Biden and push you into the war, there will be a moment will come when the Americans will pull out and we remain alone. Don’t do that.” This is exactly the situation where we are.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So it’s surprising to hear your kind of defense of Angela Merkel. But if you would have to rate the German Chancellor as the most important chancellors after the Second World War, what would you say is the ranking?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It’s not legitimate for the Prime Minister of Hungary to do that.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Okay, then is it legitimate to ask you about your view on the present German administration?

Reflections on German Chancellors

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It’s legitimate to say some sentences. First of all, when you are young, the impact of the Chancellor of Germany is stronger intellectually. My first colleague was Helmut Kohl. Then Schröder. He was very hostile to me. He respected the Hungary and German relationship, but on ideological basis, socialist. And my party is a center-right. He was never kind to me.

But we agreed on many points. I always respected him, especially the braveness, how he managed to make competitive the German economy again. It’s a big thing. Then I got Angela Merkel and I’m still alive. That’s self-achievement.

And then I got Scholz. Scholz was a Chancellor who was unlucky because he inherited a geopolitical situation which he and his country was not strong enough to resist. I understood. And now we have the new one.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What is your outlook? Is he going to become a great chancellor in history?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: He has a chance. Of course he has a chance.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You haven’t met so far. Why not?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Oh, we have. We had a discussion, not more than 30 minutes once. So I don’t have a strong and deep understanding.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But are you planning to invite him?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: No, he has a standing invitation. But he’s too much pro-war for me. May I say, just politely at ease. Without Germany, the European position will never be in favor of peace. So if the Germans are not in favor of peace immediately, but to say, “Of course, justice, please later,” or blah, blah, blah, blah, it’s war.

So if you would like to stop the war in Europe, we need number one, Germany. And he’s not that man at this moment, instead of a meeting.

Meeting with Alice Weidel

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: With Merz, you have received Alice Weidel from the AfD, the German right-wing party, to Budapest. How did the meeting go and why did you invite her?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: That was one of the biggest surprises of my life because previously I got the news from the media, German media, that she is radical, she is that and that. It’s not true. So I got a visitor who is more than happy to do the job. So I was so surprised.

Especially in economics, she has very clear visions on economy. She explained the best what is the problem in Germany, why it is not competitive and how could it be improved or repaired. And how it is related to deeper questions, culture and other issues. So that was a big impact I have got on her.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Do you think the AfD would be healthy as a part of the German government or even as the leading party?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The AfD by itself is a surprise to me because I was educated by Helmut Kohl and Joseph Strauss earlier that nobody could be to the right direction of CDU, CSU. And therefore, there is no space. Helmut Kohl always said that we have to manage that no rightist challenger could grow up in Germany. So we have to run a policy which stops that process.

And I’m looking at the system at this moment in Germany. It’s not like that, it’s just the opposite. Plus, now the German politics is basically based on two pillars. One is Berlin, other is Brussels. And what I see in Brussels, because basically Brussels is led by two Germans, a lady and a man. They are leftist, so they cooperate with the left.

So in Germany there is a party between the wall and CDU. In Brussels, the Germans and CDU became leftist. That’s what I see. It’s a problem for Europe, I think.

Europe’s Migration Crisis

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So the biggest topic of the AfD and the biggest topic basically in all centrist Western societies or open societies is migration. And you had from the very beginning a very different policy. Can you explain why Europe got it wrong and what Europe got wrong?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: To answer this question would request more stable intellectual and educated knowledge of history of Europe than I do have. Because I think that somehow the reason for the mistakes you have done is coming very much from history. I have only a practical approach.

When somebody, bulk of people, thousands or millions, who would like to step into your country, you have two options. First, to say no. Second, yes. These are the two options. And I was absolutely convinced that we have to say no because this is Hungary. We decide with whom we would like to live.

It’s impossible to step into the territory of Hungary without having permission from the Hungarian authorities. It’s a simple thing, stop them. If you let them in, awful consequences will come, challenges raising and you cannot be sure that you will be able to answer to these questions. And what I see, unfortunately you are not able to answer to these questions. So I think the Hungarian decision, which was very firm at the very first moment, was the good decision.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: In a conversation with Tucker Carlson, you said migration is the end of democracy. Can you explain?

Migration and Democracy

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Complicated philosophical issue, but I try to put it as simple as I can. What will be the future of those who came to your country illegally? If they stay, sooner or later we will give citizenship to them. If they get citizenship, they will get the right to vote. And those persons who you have never allowed to come in became your voting citizens.

So they got the voting right not in a normal way, not in a natural way, but used force to invade your country. And the European democracy, that’s another very important point, is based on a competition of two political camps. For more than 100 years, those who remained in the traditional European culture, which means Christianity, that was the right. And those who left it somehow, that became the left.

And the competition of those who tried to maintain the traditions and culture of Europe and those who try to innovate it, compete with each other. And that provided a kind of good balance and good fight, good competition which brought forward the European civilization.

But now if you let non-Christians into your community, it’s obvious that those who left the tradition of the Christian history get a majority more and more and more. And therefore, they will never vote for the Christians. So the traditional competition structure for power in Europe will be totally changed and it has an impact on democracy.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But I mean, if you’re saying migration is the end of democracy, you mean illegal migration or migration of people with very different values. Because migration as such is also a fundament of economic prosperity. America without migration and also Germany or other European countries without migration would be less successful. Recently, the former president of the European Commission said that the politically incorrect truth is that we have no problem with migration. We have a problem with Islamist migration. Would you agree with that?

Guest Workers vs. Migration

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Language is important. If there is no order in the language, there is no order in your mind. And I was never able to understand why Europeans always use the same language categories for different things. So migration is a magic formula. And we try to use this formula for very different things.

So in Hungary, for example, we have guest workers. We don’t call them migrants, we call them guest workers. We give permission for—

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You have invited a lot of Asian people. So it is also a country of migration.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: But we don’t use that term because that means different. Migration in the Hungarian mind means persons who will stay. And we don’t need that kind of person. What we need though every year—

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So if somebody integrates well and contributes to the well-being of society and economy, why not let them stay?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: And you have to make a judgment on them piece by piece, people by people. But first, of course in Hungary, every year we say this year, probably this year we said that we need 35,000 guest workers. So we give 35,000 guest workers permission for two years.

And then we will see how they have done. If they were okay, no crime, normal way, they can get another two years. And then they can apply even for citizenship. That’s a process. That’s one thing. We don’t call it migration, it’s a guest worker system.

The migration means people who just come here regardless whether you like them or not. And they said, “We have the right to stay here.” Impossible.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So you’re basically saying that migration of people with very different values are undermining the fundament of the open society model. Is that what you’re saying?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Yeah, yeah. If the people coming in high numbers of different culture than ours, where they cultivate homophobia, anti-Semitism, they will bring it here because you got not numbers, but you got human beings with all their culture and background and so on.

So my point, I’m not a doctor. My approach is never doctrine. So my approach is very pragmatic. If somebody would like to come and you need them, let’s study them. If you are ready to take the risk to live with them, let them in. If you say the risk is too much, reject it.

It’s not a question of principle. It’s a question of practical government. You can say no, you can say yes. But don’t accept that somebody from outside like Brussels does, from outside say, “You have to accept.” I will never accept it. I will always resist.

And all the Hungarians, only the Hungarians can define with whom and how we would like to live. Exclusive right of us. We can say yes, this direction or the other one. But no Brussels, no Berlin, no way.

Anti-Semitism and Migration

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Is the fight against anti-Semitism also one of your motivations to oppose migration of people from Islamist countries?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You touched upon the most sensitive issue. Could we—is it not too dangerous to speak about?

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: It’s not too dangerous. Let’s speak about it. It’s important that we touch the dangerous issues.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: So what I see is that the Jewish communities everywhere in Europe are under pressure. They are just collapsing, they’re suffering, which is insane. Having a history of Europe as we have, to let the Jewish community suffer as they do, it’s unacceptable. That’s against all the historical experiences, all the values, all the Christian values as well.

And the reason is political leaders let to change the composition of the Western societies which provided dangerous situation for the Jewish citizens. I just was in UK, but I know Germany, I know your country. So the situation, everybody is like that.

Democracy is based on election, based on votes. And now more Muslim voters are in Europe than Jewish voters. That will change everything. And now the Jewish community becomes less and less defended community in Europe.

Hungary is an exception here. It could not have happened in Hungary. I will never let it happen. No anti-Semitism, no Muslim-based hostile actions again, no public gathering for Palestine based on anti-Semitic feeling. No way, no way.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Jews are wearing kippah and the Star of David without any security risk.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: If you are a Christian country and you are a Christian leader, you cannot be ashamed, not able to protect your own citizens and to let them enjoy their own identity. To have an identity is a joy. It’s good to have an identity.

I don’t know how it is in Germany. I don’t know whether you think that to be German is a good thing, but to be a Hungarian is a fantastic thing. And I think the Jewish have the right to enjoy that they are Jewish. Let’s do it.

The Gaza Conflict

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What is your take on the Gaza discussion? This kind of very weird perception, as if the October 7th hadn’t happened. It is perceived as Israeli genocide. What’s your take on that?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: That’s the most painful phenomena in the international politics. And thanks to God, finally Donald Trump found a formula which provides some chance how to get through of that. So what I’m doing is to support 100% the peace efforts of Donald Trump, President of United States, on the Gaza issue.

Personal Development and Political Philosophy

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Here is my next surprise. Also fighting antisemitism used to be a left project for decades and now it seems to be almost a right agenda topic.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I’m astonished.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Which leads us a little bit to your kind of personal development. I mean, in the 80s you studied as a scholar in Oxford, was a Soros scholarship. You launched the Fidesz movement, the party. You were a freedom fighter. You pushed Russian troops out of Hungary and today illiberal democracy is the brand of your political activities.

Would you say that if the young Viktor Orbán, let’s say in the late 80s or early 90s would meet the Viktor Orbán of today, that he would be surprised? Or is it the same person?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: He would say congratulations my friend. I think that will be because on the basic point is the same. I’m a freedom fighter. I strongly believe freedom is freedom.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: The most important value for you?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: To be the father of five kids, that’s the most important value. But after that, definitely. But the liberals betrayed freedom. That’s the starting point.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Can you explain why and how?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You know what the liberals are doing? They are supporting migration. It’s against freedom of the countries to define how they would like and they would like to live with.

Second, they would like to say that LGBT is a compulsory value. Probably some countries yes, but some others not. They limit the right then the freedom of the parents to define how they raise their kids. You know, they let the propaganda in the school against your families. You know, if I’m a Christian guy, I’m not ready to accept that kind of activity in the schools and all other issues.

So somehow green issue. Green issue is not a freedom led process of cooperation of the capital, the people, young generation, future today living people and find a way how we can make more green record. That’s not the way they say, you know, the green direction is a must. It’s like a dictatorship, you know, it’s dictated, it’s not discussed and approved and freely based on freedom run process. It’s something else.

So the liberals on major issues betrayed freedom. I’m still standing on the freedom. If you are a freedom guy or freedom fighter necessarily, you must be anti liberal. That’s my attitude.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So basically you’re saying your values haven’t changed. You as a person can change.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The world changed around you or my ethic. The world has changed definitely around me or around us. I, you know, I don’t think that not to change is a good value. If you think the same points on being 18 and then when you are 80, you know, what was the reason to have another 62 years in the world?

You know, so change is okay, but the question is more the attitude what is the basic. The heart. What is written in your heart?

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So what is written in your heart?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: God, nation, family, freedom.

The Future of Democracy

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Was there over the last decades a special moment, an event that has basically turned you away from liberal democracy as we know it?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: No. May I take it more seriously this fashion than please. Because what we are speaking of, we have spoken about up to now in this government’s Islamization, migration. All these issues raise a point of democracy. Is there any future of democracy in the western societies?

Move back to the Greeks, Ancient Greeks. The ancient Greeks said democracy means two things. Two, not just one. One is participation, involvement into the decisions, votes. Second, and the outcome is a good government. If there is involvement into the decisions, but the outcome is not a good government, it’s called anarchy.

And if a political system, a governmental system, as we have democratic one, is not able to respond the major challenges of the society, who will believe it, how it will survive? And look at, we are not able to answer in Western Europe, now Europe to the question of war. We don’t have a good answer to migration, we don’t have a good answer to losing our competitiveness.

But all if too many big questions are not properly manufactured and managed, finally it will become the systemic question of democracy. And I think we are heading to that in Europe. So sooner or later we have to discuss, guys, what’s going on, how we can continue.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: It’s obvious that the centrist open society model is stumbling at the moment. So I would like to understand what is your ambition? What is your goal? Would you rather like to replace it by a better model? Or would you rather try to save it by reforms and necessary?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I strongly believe democracy. I would like to maintain the political system and governmental system which based on involvement of the people and the system must be based on freedom, but at the same time must be effective. So I’m looking for a solution how to strengthen democracy, not how to replace it.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So what should be done? If you’d be in charge for the EU, the president of the EU commission, what would be the first decision that you make?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: The first idea would be suicide. So I don’t take it. But look at what if it…

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Doesn’t work, the suicide and you nevertheless have to govern Europe.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: But look, look at how, what we do in Hungary. So experience is the most important thing. Look at Hungary. Hungary is, I can’t say only but one of the most stable, effective government in Europe. It’s a combination of democracy, parliamentarian system, two thirds majority, big, no coalition, you know.

So that kind we need systems which lead us to more effective action ready, action capable governmental structures. Don’t think too wide, don’t replace democracy with something else. But let’s be more innovative to think about what kind of form of democracy could result in good governmental system in the future.

Hungary’s Political Landscape

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Talking about Hungary at the moment in the polls your challenger Peter Magyar is gaining ground. He’s accusing you of corruption, he’s accusing you of controlling the media. He’s accusing you of a lack of growth and financial success. How would you explain why your approach is better for the young generation particularly?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Okay, being accused by that point, ugly points or nasty points you have raised is the same. So what I do have is 20 years in government behind me. I was always accused by that and all leaders in Europe accused by that. So it’s politics and propaganda basically.

Young generation is a serious issue. And of course in Hungary can you imagine yourself as a young Hungarian boy being 22 years old and I’m in power consecutively 4 times, 16 years. So from the beginning of the elementary school the only person and face of power is mine. So I can imagine that it’s not easy for them but I try to be, I try to be as an, is serve as an inspiration for the young guys.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: How? I mean you, let’s say your youngest daughter basically influenced also by TikTok would accuse you and say, you know, Boomer Viktor Orbán that you don’t reach me the Gen Z generation. What’s your response?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I have to collect young persons who are able to do so. So there are things what I can do for the young generation. But I am, I’m 62. There are certain things which I’m, it would be little ridiculous to do. Yeah I’m a serious, I try to be a serious guy having six grandkids.

So I’m not a clown, not a puppet or something like that to make ridiculous myself. I am who I am and of course certain technological things and format of communication is not my, not my word, not my life. But I have to collect attributes because it’s not a one man show. I am, I’m running a government but you know it’s a team, strong team.

That’s why we are the winner and we will be winner in the future as well because we always have very good team to involve young talented guys, provide them for girls and provide chances for them and say run, do, risk.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You are the longest serving prime minister in Hungary’s modern history. Five terms, four in a row. If you lose the next election, would you accept the results?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: I am not just the record holder of being prime minister, but I’m a record holder of being the leader of opposition as well. I have an experience. I spent 16 years in politics as leader of opposition. I have a practice. Don’t be afraid. I know how to continue.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What will be the most important topic for the election campaign?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: Sovereignty because Hungarian sovereignty, Hungary and sovereignty. Because the challenges to me, to the Christian, modern Christian government, what we run is created, financed and maintained from Russia.

So my main opponent and challenger is not the Hungarian guys. The challenge is in Brussels. Brussels would like to change the government in Hungary. They would like to have a government here in Hungary, as they have done in Poland, which is following the instructions coming from Brussels on migration, on economy, on war. But I’m not that guy. This particular community I lead, not that kind of community. So Brussels, I would like to replace us.

Reflections on Leadership

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Three decades in government. Is there anything that you regret that you would have done differently? In retrospect, let’s say what is the most important mistake that you made?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You know, my philosophy is that I don’t do two jobs for one money. One salary does belong to the opposition.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: If we are seriously talking about the future of democracy, are you rather on the pessimistic side or are you optimistic in, let’s say, 10 years down the road? Will we do better than today?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: If you know the history of Hungary, you should know that we Hungarians cannot survive without optimism. So I’m by nature and by history, we Hungarians belonging to the optimistic people.

And I’m very much convinced that we are good enough in mind to find the answers to the most complicated intellectual questions. And we can organize ourselves to find good political answers to the challenges. We can do it. If Hungary was able to do it in the last 16 years in Hungary, because we did. We have all the answers here. The others can find as well.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Every leader has to live with kind of opposition, with criticism in media and elsewhere. You are particularly exposed to that. How do you live with that? How do you find the balance between resilience and stubbornness? On the other hand, very difficult question.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You know, the Hungarian politics is brutal. We use terms which would never be used in Germany or accusations which in Germany would never survive. You know, so it’s really a wrestling of boxing. So it’s very tough.

The most important thing is that don’t forget why are you doing the job? Because my job is the best job of the world. And the job is that the essence of the job is that if you would like to do good things for the people by high number, this is the right place. If you make a good decision, you make happy many, many people, make easier their life.

So that’s the most important thing. Whatever they are saying, accusing. So if you have a Christian attitude to your job, you can stand everything, no problem at all. So I’m not always happy, especially when the grandkids ask me, daddy, what’s going. That’s complicated to explain. But compared with the joy and the good things, what this job can generate for you, it’s neglectable.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: So you have fun going to the office every day?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: You know, okay, if you speak seriously on this job. One point I have mentioned is that do good things for the other people, for the other Hungarians, basically. But there’s another good element of it, the most challenging job intellectually. And I love it to do my…

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: What was the darkest moment so far in your career? And what was the brightest moment?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: To lose the election of the first turn. That was painful because in 2002 I was convinced that basically we have done well and the country is a far better position than it was four years ago. And I think I was right and the people voted against me. That was very much painful.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: But did that failure make you better?

VIKTOR ORBÁN: In a sense, I have to, because I saw that the people was not right. That was my first reaction. Then I realized that regardless of the right or not, this is the decision. So don’t deal with that anymore. Try to understand why they made that decision.

It took at least one, one and a half year to get over of that. Not to be, not to be like an insulted person, you know. So if you lose first time, it’s difficult to understand how to live with that. When I lost second time, it was easy.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: You got used to it.

The Happiest Moment: Victory Against Communist Restoration

VIKTOR ORBÁN: But the most important, the happiest moment was in ’98 when I won the election. And the reason is that we fought against the Communists for 45 years in Hungary. I mean, the other generation. We are an anti-communist underground movement as we started. And democracy won 1990.

And the first democratic government failed after four years. And the reformed communists came back. And that was a very sad moment for me. How was it possible? Like in the Bible, you know, there is a chance to be better and you decide to go back.

And I realized that the kind of, you know, so something communist restoration is going on in Hungary between ’94 and ’98. And I thought even we were not good at the election ’94. I decided to stay in politics because we cannot let it happen again in Hungary that the communists even in reformed shape coming back and make a restoration.

And then finally I was able to unify the right. And we won the election in ’98. And we stopped the process of that kind of restitution of the communist system. That I was very much happy. Even my wife said, “Victor, good job.” It’s very rare.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: Thank you very much, Mr. Prime Minister.

VIKTOR ORBÁN: It was my pleasure.

MATHIAS DÖPFNER: It was a pleasure. Thank you.

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