Transcript of President Zelenskyy Interview: Diary Of A CEO Podcast 

I’m just, well, it’s not pain, it’s something terrible.

I look at these people, at their eyes, at what they say. Many of them say something. And there are people who just ask for a hug. Imagine you give an award to a father whose very strong hand you can feel. He’s a strong man. You feel his strong hand and he just quietly says to you, “Can we hug?” So they— Well, they’re gone. Gone as people anymore. Well, for a time. Then strong people try to survive.

And these moments, on the one hand, I respect them, I do it. But on the other hand, it’s hard to bear. I understand them. And it’s a huge, terrifying pain that I wouldn’t wish on anyone. What these parents feel having lost a child, a soldier. These parents didn’t lose a child on a playground. They lost a soldier. They knew that could happen. But knowing and losing are completely different things.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:09:31 – 00:09:35): I can see the tears in your eyes as you describe this.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:09:37 – 00:09:50): I’m a human being. I’m not ashamed to be who I am. I’m not the strongest man in the world. I try to set an example, but I’m definitely not a perfect person.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:09:53 – 00:10:03): Yeah. Is there anything that you— because this is a lot to deal with. I hear you recounting the stories of dealing with these parents. Is there anything that you do to take care of yourself? What is it that keeps you strong?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:10:06 – 00:10:52): My kids. My kids. I have to be an example. I told myself, maybe I don’t have to, but that’s what I told myself. I have to set an example for my kids. This is the way, that is not, and you have to set an example. Be strong, be as brave as possible, but don’t hide the pain if you have it. You shouldn’t say, “I don’t feel anything,” because human beings, by nature, they’re alive, and that’s their weakness, but it’s also where a person’s strength lies.

That really is where our strength is. And so my kids keep me grounded, very much so. I want to set an example. I want them to be proud of me.

Growing Up in Kryvyi Rih

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:10:54 – 00:11:15): We’ll talk about that later. But there’s one big outstanding question, which is, who is President Zelenskyy? And I’ve been through hundreds and hundreds of photos and stories from your childhood. I’ve got some wonderful photos here of your earliest days. And this is a beautiful one of your wonderful mother as well.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:11:16 – 00:11:23): That’s my mom. Yeah. Mom was very beautiful. Well, she still is, but she’s gotten older.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:11:24 – 00:11:42): Can you take me into your earliest context just so I can get a sort of a view of what childhood was like for you? What’s the context in which you grew up? And really, I want to understand how that context and early experience fed into the man you are today, the perspective you have, the values that you cherish.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:11:44 – 00:13:34): I’m from the generation that straddled, let’s say, 2 different lives. Meaning I was born in the Soviet Union when Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union, and I grew up in an independent Ukraine. And I’ve always said that my kids, they’re lucky because they were born in an independent country without all these shades of gray. This is gray, that’s something else. No, it’s black and white, totally clear. They’re patriots. They love their country and their country is Ukraine.

While we were born in the Soviet Union and we were kids from a fairly, let’s say, not, I don’t want to offend anyone so my dad doesn’t get upset. Well, from a regular, very ordinary family, not very well off. Let’s put it that way. Yeah, let’s put it that way. Well, that’s, and I think it’s totally clear.

From the photos, I was born in Kryvyi Rih, an academic family in Soviet-era Ukraine. Wasn’t, not like in Europe or in the United States, an academic family with everything provided. Usually our academics didn’t make a lot of money, but again, I’m not complaining. I respect my father. An honest man, a professor. Well, values. Again and again, I got an education and I got raised right. And my parents’ love. I think those 3 things are enough to be grateful to your parents. I’m not sure people find this interesting, so let’s move on.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:13:38 – 00:13:46): When you were a young boy in those photos, when you’re under the age of 10, had I asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, what would you have answered?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:13:47 – 00:14:13): Because, and to be honest, I changed like the wind. Honestly, there was a time when I really wanted to be a diplomat, wanted to be a border guard. Yeah. And then I went to law school, graduated from law faculty. And while studying, I realized that I was more interested in media. So I got out and started working that exact field.

From Comedian to Servant of the People

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:14:14 – 00:14:17): I mean, at 17 years old, you became interested in comedy.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:14:17 – 00:14:18): Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:14:18 – 00:14:29): And you joined a comedy group. And from what I read, you did that up until the age of about 26 years old. So you were a comedian up until the age of 26 years old before starting a media company?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:14:31 – 00:14:50): I, yeah, but I was more, I enjoyed— I was a scriptwriter. And so sometimes as a writer, I also did a little acting. I enjoyed it. Yeah, until I was 26. And then at 26, I got my own company.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:14:50 – 00:14:56): There’s some interesting stats I found. 28 years old, you won Ukraine’s Dancing with the Stars.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:14:58 – 00:14:59): Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:15:00 – 00:15:01): Yeah. So you can dance?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:15:02 – 00:15:05): I think, yes. I’m not sure that now I can.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:15:07 – 00:15:10): And later you voiced Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian language film.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:15:11 – 00:15:49): Yeah, I really, really loved— I think Paddington is a very cool thing, really right, and for the people. I’m not sure all of it is just for kids, to be honest, but nonetheless, that character resonated deeply with me. And even after I became president, the next Paddington installment was coming out, and all this was before the war, and they were sending me signals, would you consider voicing another Paddington movie? I said, well, I’d really love to, but I didn’t.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:15:50 – 00:16:08): Yeah. No. And then between 34 years old and 37 years old, you appeared in a bunch of different feature films. And most interestingly, you starred as one particular character, a schoolteacher who accidentally becomes president in the satirical TV series called Servant of—

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:16:08 – 00:16:09): Of the People.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:16:09 – 00:16:11): The People. And I think I have a photo.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:16:12 – 00:16:13): Yeah, teacher of history.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:16:14 – 00:16:33): You’ve got to explain the context here because people can’t believe that this is true. They can’t believe that you actually acted as an actor who accidentally becomes president. And you must find this bizarre that you then became president because presumably at that time you weren’t expecting to become president when you became an actor pretending to be president.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:16:33 – 00:17:03): Absolutely. I definitely didn’t expect it. Absolutely. And this idea was about 10 to 12 years old. Once this idea came to me and I thought about it, I lived with this idea for a long time. I love doing that. And at some point, the feeling was that the world is changing, Ukraine is changing, and right now this idea is relevant. It will resonate and people will like it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:17:03 – 00:17:04): What was the idea?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:17:05 – 00:17:20): When you say the idea, a person from the people without any history, without any political background becomes president. And that’s how it turned out, to be honest.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:17:21 – 00:17:50): So you were playing a character in a TV series called Servant of the People, and the character was pretending to be the president. And you realized that actually the idea of there being a sort of servant of the people party or president was probably quite a good idea based on what was going on in Ukraine at that time. And because of the government instability at the time, you actually registered Servant of the People as a real political party in Ukraine?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:17:52 – 00:19:43): Well, that sounds basically like a pretty good script, but it wasn’t honestly calculated like that. The series was very popular. In parallel, there were a few other projects. We had a political satire project. It was very popular. It was even before that series. So I already had my bearings in politics anyway. The point was that indeed I decided to try my hand in this direction.

I really wanted, after the occupation of Crimea, after the occupation of Donbas, this whole situation changed us and you started to feel like something was going wrong here and it’s war, but there still wasn’t that feeling yet because it wasn’t a full-scale war. And so I didn’t want to. We were doing business with Belarus and with Kazakhstan and with Russia as well. We had offices and projects that we were filming and so on. So life changed. I wanted to drop it all. And this sense of betrayal by Russia, well, all of that happened. And that’s why— and you changed. This whole period changed you as well.

And so it’s not like it was some calculated plan, the TV show comes out and then a political party. I know about that. I know about that. Some people might think that, and that’s fine. That’s normal. People have their own opinions. That’s normal. It coincided. The mood in society coincided with my inner mood and with my determination and desire. So it’s a coincidence of many things.

When Did the War Really Begin?

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:19:44 – 00:20:19): So you talked about how it was really sort of a change in the climate in Ukraine that caused you to move closer to politics because everything that was going on at the time, Russia invaded Crimea here in 2014.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:20:19 – 00:20:19): Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:20:20 – 00:20:51): They annex Crimea. And so 4 years after this point, you announced that you’re going to run for president. Is this really when the war began, in your view? Because there’s been lots of people that have posited when the war began. Some people say the war began 1,000 years ago, and they talk about the old Crimea and everything that took place there with the Rus. Some people say it began in 2014. And some people say it began in 2022. In your mind, when did the war begin?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:20:52 – 00:22:42): I think for many people that time really is different. But if we take the new Ukraine that regained its independence in 1991, in the 20th century, then I think that in 2014, all of us just couldn’t believe it. That this kind of occupation was happening. The war really started with the occupation of Crimea. That’s true. It’s just that it was slow, that occupation. It didn’t look much like a war. Why? Well, because Ukraine wasn’t fighting back at that point.

Meaning when they occupied Crimea, there were shots fired there, of course, but for a very long time, Russia wouldn’t admit these were its people. They looked like regular people. They even called them “little green men.” That’s what they called them because you couldn’t tell what that uniform was, meaning these are people carrying some kind of weapons on the peninsula.

And the problem was that there were no clear orders from the Ukrainian authorities that you need to defend your land, that someone violated your borders with weapons and is seizing, gradually seizing Crimea. So it was really that kind of creeping occupation. Looking at that time today, not back in 2014, not in 2015, but today, you realize that that’s when the war really began.

Our mistake was not pushing them back. And of course, if there had been an order, an order to defend the country, I’m sure that, I think, a full-scale war in the form it has today wouldn’t have happened. Well, at least that’s how it seems to me.

A Family History Scarred by World War II

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:22:44 – 00:23:06): I read that your great-grandfather and his grandfather’s 4 brothers were killed by the Nazis, and his grandfather was the only brother to survive the war. And I wondered how that experience of having that in your family tree has changed how you think about this moment in time when you’re facing a war with Russia.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:23:08 – 00:24:53): My grandfather went through World War II from start to finish. My grandfather, my father’s dad, and he was, yeah, from a family where there were several brothers and all of them were killed by the Nazis. I have very few relatives in general on both sides of my family, on my father’s and my mother’s, many relatives were killed by the fascists.

And that’s all— that’s why it always sounded so bizarre when Russia accused us, Ukraine, of supposedly having Nazis. It’s bizarre and completely wild. If people all knew even a little bit of history, they would realize that fascists in Ukraine— Fascism as such doesn’t exist. Why? Because Ukraine understands deep in its roots what it means to be under the fascists. Because during World War II, Ukraine was occupied 100%, completely, totally.

Whereas Russia, Ukraine, Belarus was occupied, Ukraine and Nazi Germany, it lost a huge number of its soldiers who died specifically in Belarus, Ukraine, because we all, well, because our countries or our lands, they stood and fought. Russia was not occupied. And that is also very important to understand.

That’s why all of our people in Ukraine saw it as barbaric and an outrage when Putin attacked us and said we have fascism and he’s liberating Ukraine from fascists. I mean, it’s absurd. We fought against the fascists. We were the ones liberating.

Putin’s Imperial Ambitions Explained

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:24:54 – 00:25:31): A lot of people don’t have the historical context on how this all began. If I was a 16-year-old and I had no understanding of geopolitics and I asked you, President, I said, could you explain to me the background context that I need to understand to understand what the hell is going on at the moment? Why are Russia going into Crimea? What is Vladimir Putin’s perspective? Why does he think that that’s okay? Why does he think that he can invade Ukraine? What is historical context explained in the simplest terms to a 16-year-old about what the hell is going on here. And I’m going to give you all the time in the world to inform me.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:25:32 – 00:33:17): There was an empire called the Soviet Union, and that empire, it included a large number of what are now independent states. It’s always like that with empires. Without getting into the historical context, everyone will understand this. It’s always like that with empires. Empires exist for a while, and then they collapse. Because you can only hold everything together through autocracy, a territory like that, so many people, through tyranny, through feudalism, through slavery, through, certainly not through freedom. Empires don’t survive on freedom. And this is very important.

Why do empires fall apart? Because people want to be free. Because people compare their lives in an empire with life in other countries, even small ones. They see how things develop there. They see how things develop there, how they live, walk freely, choose any partner they want, whatever hair color you like, music, clothes, and so on.

While the Soviet Union, these empires, like everyone always said, the “Iron Curtain.” Why an Iron Curtain? So you wouldn’t see what’s out there in the West, in Europe, in the United States of America, in Britain, or anywhere in Asia. So people couldn’t see. In terms of information, an empire is hold, control everything, right? So a complete information vacuum. There you don’t exist. Nothing exists. No internet, nothing. Television that you run and control, and people get the information.

People live like fish in a fish tank. That’s all it is. The fish tank can be massive like the Soviet Union, but it’s still a fish tank. North Korea is a smaller fish tank, but it’s a fish tank. And that’s what happened with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union fell apart. Countries were happy. Countries became independent, smaller. Ukraine is one of those countries.

And when identity emerges, you have your own language, your own music, your own clothes, and so on. What exists all around the world, it’s great. Tourism. You travel to Asia, you travel to Thailand, you travel to Japan, you travel to the United States. Different culture, different music, food, people, and everyone lives freely. And it’s really cool to soak in another culture. That’s the diversity. Why does an empire fall apart? Because it’s made up of these kinds of people, nations that want to have their own thing.

The Soviet Union fell apart, but nostalgia for the Soviet Union stayed with people. Putin was the president of Russia and he set a goal for himself. And he’s a purely Soviet man, a very Soviet man. He was an intelligence officer. He worked in the KGB in Germany and so on, he said, and this is his very famous phrase, that “the greatest collapse of the 20th century in the world was the fall of the Soviet Union.” And all of that shows that Russia just wasn’t enough for him.

And he had the ambition to go back to that, to bring back the empire, to bring back the Soviet Union, because he believes that another major country is to blame for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Which one? The United States of America. Because this has always been a geopolitical war. They’re enemies. The Soviet Union and the United States of America, they were allies during World War II. And after that, they’re enemies, the Cold War and so on.

So it’s very simple. Putin wanted to bring back the Soviet Union. And what is the Soviet Union? It is above all Ukraine. Ukraine. It’s Ukraine. Ukraine is country number 2. Why? They called the Soviet Union a “forge of talent.” In Ukraine, there were so many people who later led, had that kind of education because there were many scientists, many engineers, many universities, a huge intelligentsia. That’s what they said, that for the Soviet Union, Ukraine was the forge of talent.

In other words, many people who came from Ukraine, who then ran various institutions, ministries in the Soviet Union and so on, meaning it’s the intellectual part of the Soviet Union. Ukraine was always rocket, the biggest rocket manufacturing was here, nuclear weapons, which Ukraine handed over. A lot of things were made in Ukraine.

And what’s the problem? For Russia. If Ukraine becomes part of Europe, and without the Soviet Union, Ukraine started taking gradual steps in the other direction, meaning if Ukraine becomes part of Europe, then Russia will collapse. It will fall apart. There are many different peoples, different religions, entirely and simply different nations into many different countries. And Putin decided to piece this whole empire back together.

This ambition, where do you start piecing it together? He started the war in Chechnya. He occupied Chechnya, a small country that is now part of Russia. He destroyed it completely. Everything that’s happening in Eastern Ukraine, it’s the very same commanders, military commanders who fought in Chechnya, who destroyed Chechnya completely. There was nothing left, no buildings, nothing. People were killed. A huge number of people, by the way, were killed in Chechnya. And he occupied it.

And then he decided to bring back the empire, starting with Ukraine, with a free state, one that wants to be in the European Union, one that is smart, intellectual, other countries too. But here, here’s what it is. Well, and the start, there always has to be a pretext to start an occupation. What pretext? It’s always a pretext. The pretext is always language.

And he starts with Crimea. He starts the occupation with Crimea. Why? In Crimea, there were a lot of Russian-speaking people, Russian-speaking Ukrainians. But to understand this, and in Crimea, there was deportation. There was more than one deportation, expulsion of the Tatars. In other words, Crimea has indigenous peoples and it’s a multiethnic peninsula.

But what happened is he started the occupation with Crimea and with Donbas, with the east. Why? Because he divided society, unleashed this war. Based on language, because language is always such an issue, a painful issue. And when you want to divide society, it’s totally unfair. It’s totally despicable toward the people. You start bringing up the language issue. So he brought it up, said that I’m protecting Russian-speaking people, which wasn’t true. Nobody took anything from anyone. Yeah, but it was just easier. The east of the country borders with the Russian Federation.

Why Putin Invaded on February 24, 2022

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:33:19 – 00:34:09): Days before, I think it was the day before Vladimir Putin ordered troops to invade Ukraine, he did a statement where he said, “Modern Ukraine was entirely and completely created by Russia, more precisely Bolshevik communist Russia. This process began almost immediately after the 1917 Revolution. Soviet Ukraine is the result of Bolshevik policy, and can rightly be called Vladimir Lenin’s Ukraine. Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood.”

So he’s very much denying that Ukraine is a nation of its own. Why did he choose to invade February 24th? Why did he choose then to invade? If he had invaded Crimea in 2014, why was, in your view, that the moment where he decided to cross the border and try and, by the looks of it, take control of the whole of Ukraine.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:34:10 – 00:36:29): First of all, notice he talks about the Soviet Revolution of 1917. That’s ridiculous to anyone. Your country’s history can’t start in 1917. In Ukraine, there are churches. Everyone knows we have very beautiful churches that are 1,000 years old. Ukrainian churches painted by Ukrainians, total master professionals, 1,000 years old.

Ukraine is, it’s the heir to Kievan Rus, a great state that was very well known in Europe, on the European continent at least, with an advanced civilization. It really, with its own art, with its own traditions and so on. Russia wasn’t even close to existing. Russia came after Ukraine already existed.

But he cuts all that out, starts with the revolution. Why from the October Revolution of 1917? Because he’s talking about the history of the Soviet Union, not about the history of Russia, and not about the history of Ukraine. The Soviet Union. Why? Because he’s signaling to people who are in Russia, who honestly, the kids, they get information in schools and they take it, they don’t go any deeper. He’s signaling to them that their life is the Soviet Union, and that’s where we’re heading back to. That’s what he’s doing.

He started a full-scale war. The war started 24th of ’22, February 24th. Missile strikes were launched immediately from the territory. It was flying from every side. Troops were also entering from the territory of Belarus, right from here, because it’s the closest route to the capital. They were advancing on Kyiv and also came from all directions. They— the main goal was to seize the capital of Ukraine. That was their main goal. Naturally, they were counting on the tough guys who were both Russian and the separatists already in the occupied territory of Donbas.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:36:30 – 00:36:55): Why in February 2022? Why not later? Why not sooner? Why was that the moment? What had happened that— because part of the reason I asked this question is because President Donald Trump often blames Joe Biden for being weak and that giving Vladimir Putin an opportunity to invade because he didn’t respect President Biden. That’s what’s claimed. Is there truth in that?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:36:55 – 00:39:53): I’ll explain. I think that it was a little bit earlier. In ’21, there was a summit. I don’t remember when anymore. I think, I don’t remember. There was a Biden-Putin summit. Remember that famous summit? We didn’t have all the details. They came out and started talking about something. Publicly and so on. Then rumors started that they discussed the issue of a possible escalation against Ukraine.

And we kept bringing up this issue over the next few months. We kept bringing it up with the Americans, and this could really happen. And they were saying, well, it could happen. We asked them then, please give us what we need to defend ourselves if there are such risks. That some kind of occupation could start. We couldn’t imagine though that full-scale invasion would start because we saw what Russian occupation looked like with Crimea and with Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.

So you imagined it differently. You couldn’t imagine that overnight missiles would just start flying. Nobody had ever seen anything like that. Why were kids screaming? Why were people fleeing? Why was there absolute chaos? Those were absolutely horrifying moments because missiles are literally flying at you. Nowadays, 1,000 drones fly in and we shoot them down. We fight. But back then, right around 4 in the morning, missiles were raining down on your head. Everyone was in shock.

So he did it in February because that’s what he wanted to do. That was his plan. I think he told Biden a whole lot of things. I remember, unfortunately, I think unfortunately, President Biden stepped in later in the first minutes or days of the war. I had a call with him back then when he offered to evacuate me. Back then, a lot of people offered me help. I said, “Give us weapons. Help us defend the country.”

And I think they realized that it’s impossible to occupy us. That’s what I think happened. I think that the United States back then, I don’t know, maybe they did consider that it could turn out that there’d be a conflict and we might be occupied, but nobody counted on us holding out for sure.

I remember that, I think a day before, God, that was so long ago. I’ve forgotten so much already. A day before the invasion, the Europeans who knew less than the Americans, they were talking with Putin and Putin promised them there wouldn’t be an invasion. Oh, he lied to all of them back then. He knew there would be an invasion. He knew everything.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:39:55 – 00:40:06): When did you first get a phone call telling you that Russia were planning to invade Ukraine? How many days before it happened did you get that call? And who was the call from?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:40:06 – 00:41:38): It was never direct, like Russia plans an invasion on such and such day and there will be a full-scale war like this and that. It was never like that. These were very cautious diplomatic signals and so on. And this, how can I put it? We kept bringing up this issue. Why? Because people were worried and people were worried that affected the economy and affected the currency and the stability of the national currency started to drop, which affected the country’s economy.

And we asked the Americans, “Give us a clear signal if you believe this is war. Then give us weapons urgently, everything you can give,” because, well, that’s what our dialogue was like. Yeah, well, but nobody would give anything. And I asked, impose sanctions. That’s something everybody in Europe knew about. They knew.

I asked President Biden, “Impose sanctions on Russia now preemptively. If you know there could be an invasion, impose sanctions.” We other— and then he won’t go in if he’s really decided to. But President Biden said, “We’ll impose sanctions if there’s an invasion.” Post facto, not preemptive sanctions, but post facto. I’m not God to judge a president, but I believe that was a mistake in my view.

The Morning of the Full-Scale Invasion

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:41:39 – 00:43:04): Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, but in October 2021, the Director of National Intelligence and CIA director briefed US leadership and top NATO allies that Putin was making concrete plans for a multi-front invasion. And European media published satellite imagery showing 100,000 Russian troops, tanks, and field hospitals that had started to emerge. And CIA director flew to Moscow to warn Putin directly against invading in November 2021.

Then in December 2021, the US government took the rare step of declassifying intelligence maps and troop estimates predicting an invasion force of up to 175,000 troops to prevent Russia from using a false flag operation as a pretext. And then in late January, early February 2021, the US National Security Advisor publicly warned that an invasion could begin at any time, urging foreign citizens to evacuate Ukraine. And then on February 24th, 2022, Russia launched the full-scale invasion, and they launched the invasion from multiple sides, really with the focus on Kyiv.

Can you remember where you were when you realized that they had crossed multiple borders of Ukraine at the same time? If I was a fly on the wall in whatever room you were in, wherever you were, what would I have seen? Where were you? How did you find out?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:43:05 – 00:43:25): First of all, I’d like you to know that in Belarus, the Russians were conducting drills, training. These were annual drills. That’s very important because when we talk to our partners and they are briefed, like you’re saying, folks from NATO and so on, nobody fully believed it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:43:25 – 00:43:25): Why?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:43:26 – 00:44:39): Because everybody said they were just saber rattling. Putin was intentionally trying to scare everyone he wouldn’t launch an invasion. What I just told you. European leaders called him. He said, “I won’t invade.” He had exercises in Belarus, military exercises. On top of that, our defense minister was invited there to these exercises, and he was there. Just so you understand. Imagine that. He went there, came back, and so on. And then the full-scale invasion started from multiple directions.

And what the Europeans said, echoing my messages, was impose sanctions and give weapons to the Ukrainians if you know an invasion is coming. The Americans didn’t do that. They didn’t give them and didn’t impose sanctions. And that’s why everyone had doubts. Everyone thought the Russians were just bluffing. Why? Because he wanted to push us into the Minsk agreements and so on so that we’d give them Donbas and recognize Donbas as not Ukraine and also recognize Crimea as not Ukraine. In other words, that was the format of pressure. But what happened happened.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:44:40 – 00:44:40): What did you believe?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:44:42 – 00:46:17): I didn’t think there would be a full-scale invasion. I didn’t think so because I believe that if people know there’s going to be a full-scale invasion, partners and so on, and they don’t take preemptive steps, don’t sit him down at the table. Don’t tell him, “Are you out of your mind? Have you lost your mind to wage war in the 20th century, to kill people? You’re completely unhinged.”

But even so, a full-scale invasion happened and just, and they approached Kyiv very quickly, like really quickly. I mean, it was just, it was, well, an avalanche. And I was with my family. I got a call from the office. Saying that before that, during the night, missiles were flying. Missiles. I got ready, told my wife, told the kids, told them the war has started. And I went to the office.

I arrived at the office. I was the first or second, the second person I think in the office. And I called everyone in and we started the workday, such a terrible workday, the first one during the full-scale war.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:46:18 – 00:46:19): What did your wife say?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:46:22 – 00:46:34): I don’t remember. It was very fast. Everything happened so fast. I told my wife, “Wake up quickly, the war has started. I love you. I’ll call you,” and ran out.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:46:36 – 00:46:38): And life has not been the same since.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:46:39 – 00:46:50): Absolutely. It’s just a different life. Everything is different. Everything’s different. 100%.

Could Trump Have Prevented the War?

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:46:50 – 00:47:24): When I was doing my research on that day when Russia invaded, what I couldn’t believe is just the volume of troops that rolled across the border. I read one thing that said there was 65 kilometers of armored vehicles and troops on one particular road as they tried to take Kyiv. I want to talk about that, but I really want to also get an answer to this outstanding question in my head, which is Trump has repeatedly said, probably 100 times now, that this never would have begun, it never would have happened if he was president. Do you believe that?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:47:33 – 00:48:52): I think that nobody knows the answer, honestly. The fact remains that this happened during Biden’s presidency. That’s a fact. It’s a fact that this didn’t happen under Trump. A fact. But it’s also a fact that Putin chose the moment for a full occupation. That’s also a fact.

I think Trump had a special relationship with Putin and still does. And maybe it really is possible that Trump being on friendly terms with Putin could have prevented a full-scale invasion. But one thing you have to know for sure, neither I nor Trump, we’re not eternal in these presidential seats. And so either way, Trump’s presidency would have ended and Putin still wouldn’t have been able to change his main goal, the occupation of Ukraine. So I think that honestly, it doesn’t matter who the president is. As long as Putin is there.

How Kyiv Held Out

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:48:54 – 00:49:38): On February 24th, when Russia invaded Ukraine, it is reported that they sent— there’s different numbers, but some of the numbers go up to 200,000 troops that were assembled across the Ukrainian border. It varies between 150,000 and 190,000. And when I look at the total active number of troops in Ukraine at the time, it’s almost the same number.

So it’s almost as if Russia deployed the full size of the number of active duty personnel you had into Ukraine to attack Ukraine and specifically to take Kyiv. Can you just explain to me in simple terms how they staged that attack? You said that some troops came in from Belarus. There was support that came in trying to take Kyiv as well. I think—

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:49:39 – 00:53:06): They knew that our main forces were in the east of our country, Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Yes, Donetsk, Luhansk region. Why were Donetsk, Luhansk regions where our main units were? Look, there is Kharkiv, which was also their target. Look, this whole part, Mariupol, which was very important to them, Donetsk, which was already occupied and so on.

So what was the bottom line? Because when part of it was occupied, when Donetsk was occupied, look, Makiivka, Yenakiieve, all of that was after the occupation of Crimea. Look, all of this was occupied, this entire part. Very strong troops were stationed here, strong both in terms of numbers and strength, and the separatists, and they were fighting against us. Meaning you have to understand, these are people who considered Donetsk their homeland. These aren’t just Russians, these are separatists. So there were both separatists and Russians here. So this was their strongest grouping.

And our strongest grouping was stationed right here. And that was constantly, they were here, they were stationed right here. Why were they stationed here? Because they were holding back the strongest Russian grouping so it wouldn’t break through. And nobody expected that they would go through Belarus and advance on the capital. And that’s why we didn’t have any strong troops here. That is an absolute fact.

We simply didn’t have that kind of army. The entire Ukrainian army was, well, excuse me, it was later I changed the law to make it 200,000 plus up to 250,000. But before that, it was an even smaller force. And just imagine 200,000 people are coming at you. Well, it’s simply impossible to defend. You need an army like the one we have today, 800,000, which was actually the main problem for the Russian troops.

Only when they couldn’t take our capital, we held out and destroyed them. They didn’t have enough troops to hold the occupied territories here. And they had to pull back. We were hitting them and they were pulling back. And that’s how we fully took back Kyiv region, Chernihiv region, and that whole front. We completely restored it and pushed them out entirely. So it’s completely obvious. They just didn’t have enough troops. Just like at first when they pushed in, we didn’t have a strong army here. We didn’t have enough troops, and later the same happened to them.

Naturally, when the full-scale invasion started, there was mobilization and people, there were lines, people showed up as volunteers, and our army grew from 200,000 to an army of 800,000 while the Russian presence was around, by the way, the Russian presence was around 700, probably at that moment around 700,000 across all directions on Ukrainian territory. Meaning this was a massive onslaught coming in, a massive onslaught.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:53:07 – 00:53:16): There’s, in late February, satellite imagery captured a massive 64-kilometer, which is 40-mile-long Russian military convoy.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:53:17 – 00:53:18): Yeah, it was terrifying footage.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:53:18 – 00:53:34): Yeah, of that backed up along a single highway leading to Kyiv. And when you see 64 kilometers of military vehicles and armored vehicles heading to one city, and then you hear that they failed to take that city. The question, like, how?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:53:35 – 00:55:13): How? They captured, look, by the way, the Chernobyl nuclear plant where the disaster happened, all of that was occupied. That whole route was occupied. They occupied it and blockaded Kyiv. How did we— people stepped up. People went to mobilize. Yes, a huge number on the first day we left the country headed toward Western Ukraine, the western part of our country they left, but a lot of people stayed mobilized and we brought up our troops and started fighting them.

Day after day, we pushed back harder. They cut off our food, cut off our water, cut everything off completely. So that was their mission. They expected people to run. And me and certain people came to me and they said, “Kyiv is cut off. And Kyiv is surrounded and the Russians are suggesting you hand over your powers and that’s it,” meaning Kyiv must surrender. Naturally, I told those people where to go. Let’s put it that way, out of my office. And then, as you know, leaders were calling, offering to evacuate. Before all the roads were blocked to get out of Kyiv.

“I Need Ammunition, Not a Ride”

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:55:13 – 00:55:20): Who called you and asked you if you wanted to be evacuated? And did they make you an offer to evacuate you themselves?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:55:20 – 00:55:20): Biden.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:55:21 – 00:55:22): Joe Biden asked you if you wanted to be evacuated?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:55:22 – 00:55:24): He was the first. The first.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:55:25 – 00:55:25): What did he say?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:55:26 – 00:55:56): “We are ready to help you evacuate” because naturally, well, the invasion, Kyiv is surrounded and “we are ready to help you, you and your family.” Likewise, many Europeans offered me that later, several Europeans, and people around me as well. Let’s say people around me from our political circle also suggested doing all that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:55:57 – 00:55:58): What did you say to Biden?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:56:02 – 00:56:05): “I need ammunition. Not a ride.”

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:56:08 – 00:56:09): Did you tell your wife and your family to leave?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (00:56:18 – 00:59:36): They all— nobody could go anywhere because that was a choice. That was the family’s— And there’s, naturally they weren’t in the office with me, or the security detail took them and they went to another location. Yeah. Well, because it was clear that there was just shoot— there was shooting right around the president’s office, and it was obvious how this could all end.

And they asked me to go down to the bunker. Down there I had, it was very deep underground built right inside my office. And in that bunker I started working. That’s where Biden called me. All around my office was secured by snipers, various guys of ours, special services. And I was in the bunker, down there I had communications, and I spoke with all the leaders from there. That’s where I first did a video call with the Europeans, pleading with them to unite, help Ukraine, not abandon us. And it worked. Yeah.

And I continued being there, going out into the street, talking to the people, showing myself, because there were so many in those first few days. There were so, so many narratives. Russia was putting out a lot of information claiming I had fled. So basically their whole idea was for people to run and people would run if they saw that their leader abandoned them. Well, I mean, excuse me, if the leader abandoned the capital, well then everyone has to survive on their own. So that was the whole story. They wanted me to run and for them, yeah, obviously that was their goal.

I couldn’t abandon Kyiv, the office, the people. It’s just impossible. That would be betrayal. Betrayal of my human decency and the Constitution of Ukraine. So I couldn’t do that. Well, and that’s it. That’s it. And then the Russians constantly pushed information that I wasn’t there, then that I was spotted at the border, then that I was seen somewhere else than in other countries. And all of that forced me to go out into the street all the time, 2, 3 times a day. I made a decision to constantly communicate, constantly say something to people so people could see that I was in the office on Bankova, that I hadn’t fled anywhere, hadn’t run away.

That was important for the military too. Later on with time, the military told me that it meant a lot to them. They stood strong, fought, defended, and liberated Kyiv because they believed they were liberating their capital, their home, and their president, meaning that he didn’t abandon us, that he stayed with us. That’s what they said. Well, it was my duty. I don’t see it as some kind of very special choice of mine. I believe that this was the only way I could act.

Crisis Management in the First Days of War

STEVEN BARTLETT: (00:59:39 – 01:00:04): Were you scared? Because if I— you have a nuclear power, one of the biggest militaries in the world, that have 64 miles of military equipment heading towards where you are, and you have them invading also by air, firing missiles into the cities that you are in and your family are in, you’ve made the decision you’re going to stay. Were you scared?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:00:08 – 01:02:23): Scared? It’s a different feeling. It’s not about fear. It’s about being, well, being laser-focused on what needs to be done right now. We were working at such speed. I can’t even tell you. I was just running around the office. I was running, making decisions, calling leaders. I just had no breaks. I had, I don’t know, dozens of calls with leaders every single day, every hour, every second. I’d run outside, come back, talk to the military, come back. So I just didn’t have time for that.

I only realized it all about 20 days into the war. I just realized that something happened, something terrible, and the speed, when the speed slightly began to shift, you started to realize, my God, well, this is war. And it’s without a doubt a horrible war. Yeah, but at first I was just working.

Honestly, I have this trait. I don’t even think it’s just me. People have this trait to pull yourself together when shock, people around you are in shock and you see it in their eyes. You see that they, well, they’re in shock and you realize that you need to act right now. Just act. Act every second. Draw conclusions. Kyiv is blockaded. Open it up. Tell the military, open the road. We need food to get in, water, and so on. That’s what crisis management is.

And in tough situations, basically, that’s usually how I act in tough situations. And it’s not like I’m, again, the bravest person. It’s just when this kind of thing hits, I see people around me falling apart, falling apart. Well, because it’s a terrible war, I pull myself together completely. And only later, once you’ve relaxed, you realize that a terrible tragedy occurred, a war, and it’s just immense grief, pretty much like that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:02:25 – 01:02:33): When did things slow down enough for you to realize the severity and the impact of the tragedy that had taken place and the lives that were lost? Was there a particular moment?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:02:34 – 01:05:06): The first few days, I didn’t sleep at all. The first few days, we just worked. I was sleeping about, yeah, 15 minutes, sleeping 15 minutes because I had, my entire job was communication. I was talking in circles with every leader, deliver this over there, do that there. We set up flawless logistics for weapons. We were able, I was talking at night with Poland, with Andrzej Duda. There was a warehouse there. We were waking leaders up, meaning in the middle of the night. So it was, well, it’s improper to say this today. You shouldn’t treat people like that, but that’s how it was.

And about 20 days later into the war, everything started coming together into some steps that needed to be taken into some kind of, well, like the realization that, well, a war had begun. War, tragedy, and we have to move forward. And well, that’s about how it was. At first it was crisis management. Unblock, bring back troops, break the siege of Kyiv, strike back at them.

And definitely the most crucial things were communications, food, water, the population. So many cities were cut off. It wasn’t just the banking system, cards, making sure cards worked. I mean, we’re a pretty digitalized country, so a lot of things were done. A lot of things were done in those first weeks. We were faster than the Russians.

They broke through quickly toward Kyiv, and once we stopped them at Kyiv, we became much faster in the information space and so on. We shattered their whole wave of disinformation and just broke them down step by step, step by step, until they realized that they lost the capital to us. And then it became clear that we had to push harder. Our partners helped. Our partners realized that we wouldn’t give up and they started helping. That was definitely it. I remember how it happened.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:05:07 – 01:05:46): It is often said that Vladimir Putin believed he would be able to take Kyiv and Ukraine in just a number of days, and actually captured Russian assault units carried only 3 to 10 days of combat rations alongside formal dress uniforms meant for a victory parade, while state media accidentally released a pre-scheduled victory declaration on day 3. Although Putin never publicly uttered the phrase “3 days” or said a sort of timeframe himself, there are top Russian state media figures who openly bragged that the conquest would take only a few days. What is it that they misunderestimated about Ukraine?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:05:47 – 01:06:59): That’s right. Exactly what you started with today, that Ukraine is not Russia. That’s his problem. Refusing to recognize a separate nation, refusing to recognize a separate country, that’s what did him in. He still doesn’t understand that he looks at Ukraine as Russia, as part of Russia, that I’ll march in with an army, we’ll have hundreds of thousands of men, he’ll slam his fist on the table, the president will run away, people will hide, and the Ukrainian flag will be swapped for the Russian flag. And that’s it. 3 days.

We showed a military operation that was supposed to take 3 days. That’s how it is. When our guys hit their tanks and stuff, we found parade uniforms. It’s true. They found parade uniforms in their various military vehicles. They were literally marching to a parade. They specifically wanted to capture Kyiv in 3 days and symbolically hold some kind of regular spectacle of pseudo-victory on Khreshchatyk, on Independence Square. Well, I mean, that’s the most important thing. He still doesn’t understand and doesn’t want to admit that this is a different nation, a different people.

Trump’s “Wrong Turn” Claim

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:06:59 – 01:07:10): Just 12 hours ago, Trump weighed in on what he believed happened with Kyiv and why Vladimir Putin wasn’t able to take Kyiv. This is what he said. I’ll throw it up on the screen for the listeners.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

DONALD TRUMP: (01:07:11 – 01:07:51): But then it was supposed to be a very much very quick war, right? And if you remember the tanks going up the highway right into Kyiv, had the general, who was obviously not a very good general, not made a right turn into farmland, which was soaked and soaking wet from the heaviest rain in 10 years, they say. He went right up into the mud and it was like quicksand.

And those tanks, so they got, I guess, I don’t know if you call it lucky or not lucky, frankly, because it’s been 5 years and Ukraine has lost a tremendous, Ukraine has lost so many of its men. Number one, had they not taken the right turn onto dirt instead of going up a concrete highway, it would have ended in one day.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:07:52 – 01:07:59): So Trump says that it was a Russian mistake, taking a wrong turn, that stopped this war being over in a day.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:08:01 – 01:11:59): No, they surrounded Kyiv. They reached Kyiv. They occupied towns on the way to Kyiv. Some they didn’t occupy, towns fought back, they bypassed them. No, if someone took a wrong turn, I don’t know what President Trump is talking about. Overall, it doesn’t matter. With all the armor they lost near Kyiv, Hostomel, and so on. In other words, dozens, hundreds of armored vehicles burned.

They just trapped us and then we started hammering them and they didn’t know what to do about it because some of their armor breached into Kyiv, right into the capital. Armored vehicles drove through the streets and people burned it all down. They were especially shocked when they drove toward the capital and people were just throwing burning debris. I mean, people were setting their armor on fire.

It wasn’t a matter of some general being an idiot. I believe the one who gave the order just didn’t fully realize what was happening, didn’t really get what it would take. And that’s the main point. They needed around thousands, thousands. I think 300,000 to 400,000 to take Kyiv. They needed twice as many men. Why? Because taking Kyiv, what does taking Kyiv mean? When you’ve taken those towns on the way to Kyiv, you have to leave troops behind to hold those towns. And that takes a huge number of people.

It’s a pretty large territory, and you can avoid leaving many troops there only if there’s no resistance. But if the people inside offer resistance, then you need an army to hold every town. That was their mistake. They didn’t estimate, right? Didn’t estimate. They didn’t even realize there would be resistance. That’s it. That was their main mistake. And then that’s it. That’s all.

For example, if you take that operation back in 2014, when they went in and seized Crimea, then pardon me, in Crimea, there are 3 million people and Kyiv had 3 million people. Dozens of people entered Crimea, at most hundreds, and here hundreds of thousands. It’s not about the operation. The difference is people defended it, stood up and fought. And the difference is no one fought back, which is why I said when dozens of people showed up here.

Where Trump is right is that if Crimea hadn’t been allowed to fall, there would be no war. On this, I agree with President Trump. Not because I’m blaming anyone, no. It’s just that dozens of people went into Crimea, dozens. For a country like this, that’s zero. That’s nothing. We handled hundreds of thousands. Here’s what happened.

And if they’d been smacked in the head back then, the Russians, those people wearing uniforms, meaning the Russians would’ve even said, hey, that’s— they were already saying, “That’s not our army. Look at the uniforms.” You can’t tell it’s the Russian army. And if they’d been hit back then, well, it wouldn’t have happened. Well, at least there wouldn’t have been a chance of a full-scale war. Why? Because Putin would’ve known there would be a blow, there would be a response. But what was his mistake here? First of all, when he saw how Crimea was seized so easily, that’s why he thought he could seize Kyiv just as easily. That was his experience.

The Battle of Hostomel

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:12:01 – 01:12:07): And there’s quite a famous battle that took place to secure the Antonov Airport?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:12:07 – 01:12:19): Hostomel. Hostomel Antonov. That’s what I just told you. That’s a battle. There’s a terrible battle in Hostomel, a brutal battle, the airport in Hostomel.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:12:19 – 01:12:30): Can you explain that to me? Because I watched a documentary on this a couple of months ago, and it feels like it was a really pivotal moment in defending Kyiv. What were Russia trying to do?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:12:30 – 01:13:39): Where is this? For them, it was crucial to seize the airports. Hostomel is one of the airports where a massive landing force could land and so on. So here’s how a takeover works. Block Kyiv, capture the airports, basically TV towers and so forth. In other words, seize information, logistics, and cut off supplies of food, weapons, and so on. That’s basically the plan. And you need the leader to run because no leader means chaos, no chain of command. That’s what they were doing.

There was a terrible battle in Hostomel. Our people burned them there and they had very tough combat units. They couldn’t land a large force there. They were destroyed. Hostomel was taken back. Our troops controlled it. That was one of the striking battles, a terrible battle, one of the most striking battles. So we did everything possible not to let them capture us and seize our logistics.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:13:39 – 01:13:48): They flew in with paratroopers, so they parachuted people into that airport to try and claim it, and they originally did seize the airport.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:13:49 – 01:13:50): That’s right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:13:51 – 01:13:56): And then there was an immediate counterattack where Ukrainian National Guard units and special forces—

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:13:56 – 01:13:58): Yes, our National Guard.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:13:59 – 01:14:14): You shelled and destroyed the runway yourself. You destroyed your own runway while air defence units, forces shot down several Russian transport helicopters. And from what I understood, you took the airport back, they fought, you took it back, they fought, you took it back. Yes, constant.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:14:14 – 01:14:18): That’s right. Hostomel changed hands back and forth. That’s how it was.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:14:19 – 01:14:25): And if they had been able to seize that airport, how would that have changed the situation with Kyiv, do you think?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:14:27 – 01:14:41): Likely, they could have taken most of the capital. They could have broken through and captured it. That’s true. That’s true. That was an utterly heroic battle.

The Horrors of Bucha

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:14:44 – 01:15:06): When you hear these stories, you realize that the future of Ukraine comes down to both heroism, but also several small battles, some big battles, but also several small moments. When you reflect on that month, that moment, is there any other sort of small moments that you think really defined the future of Ukraine in this regard?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:15:08 – 01:17:37): Well, just so you know, today, places like Hostomel, then further up, Moshchun, and several small towns around Kyiv. There was a desperate battle for every single one of those towns. Why the National Guard? Because back then, the full army couldn’t reach it yet. But the National Guard are internal troops, so they were there and brought in army units and so on. But nonetheless, that’s why it was an utterly heroic battle.

There was Bucha, right, that they occupied it. It was terrible. It was a genocide recognized by everyone. They buried hundreds of people. They tortured people. I mean, tortured them. And hundreds of people were in a mass grave. They found a grave. There were, I believe, around 500 people, half a thousand people in a grave like that. Just imagine, hands tied, tortured, and then buried in pits. That’s what was happening.

People seeing all this, this looked nothing like a war. It was definitely pure looting when they occupied those towns on the way to Kyiv and around Kyiv. They just went into homes, just killed. Took microwaves, some refrigerators, TVs. They acted like just an, well, I can’t even describe it. Well, they’re just scavengers. And all these people, they tied their hands, tortured them. There was sexual violence, everything. And they buried people right in the yard. Dumped people and so on.

When we liberated those towns, there emerged this kind of such hatred for the Russians right at that moment, not even at the moment when they started the full-scale war. Back then, nobody understood what it really was yet. People understood what this war was and what Putin did personally when we found those mass graves of tortured adults, children. I mean, they didn’t just kill them, they tortured and killed them.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:17:37 – 01:17:37): Children.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:17:38 – 01:21:06): That’s right. That’s right. And then you realize that, I mean, just imagine what they went through. Well, there’s no, you can’t even compare what all these people lived through. Why Bucha is so horrifying and why the Russians immediately started saying, “It’s a staged performance, we brought in journalists.” The entire world press was there. They saw the bodies.

I deliberately, when we liberated Bucha, I went there. Once I saw it, I said, “Bring every journalist here. Don’t touch anything. Just bring the journalists. The whole world simply has to see this.” And they brought the journalists. People were literally lying on the pavement, dead bodies lying everywhere, kids, adults, elderly people, and so on.

Witnesses who had stayed behind in Bucha, an old man, an elderly man. This was a very famous story there. It’s one of those moments you’re talking about. This elderly man, he survived the occupation of this town, the town of Bucha, during World War II. And he said the fascists never treated people like that. Yes, they were enemies. Yes, occupiers. But they didn’t torture people like that. This is absolute reality. And this, there are testimonies, there’s evidence, there are criminal cases.

And how after all this, we, it’s just that it was already a long time ago, in the first year of the full-scale war. And sometimes people need to be reminded. When you see a mass today finding a grave in the US or in Britain, God forbid, with 500 tortured people, adults, kids, dogs, animals shot dead. I mean, they held hunting sprees there. From military vehicles, people were running, they were shooting, just hunting, playing games. The whole time they were blockading Kyiv, right up until the moment we liberated it, there were people in those villages and so on. They literally just played with people like slavery. Imagine that.

So how after this can you listen to Putin and how after this can you forgive? And that’s why when President Trump says we need to find a compromise, and believe me, we live with this, a ceasefire and sitting down at the negotiating table, there’s a huge compromise. It is a huge compromise. Nobody can step into the shoes of all these people and the relatives whose children were tortured. Nobody wants to forgive them for anything. Nobody wants to forgive anything. And you can’t force people to forgive. How can you force them when their child was tortured? How do you forgive? Well, it’s impossible.

But that’s why we say a ceasefire is the only step. Because people have such hatred, it’s not going away. That hatred isn’t going anywhere. It takes time and justice. And that’s why it’s a huge compromise. I’ve always really wanted, I’ve tried many times to tell the president of the United States, just understand us. This is a huge compromise just to hold the lines where we are. Well, look, that’s what it feels like.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:21:09 – 01:21:20): What was your hardest day through the last 4 years? What’s the day that will live long in your brain, your mind, your memory?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:21:22 – 01:21:39): Bucha, what I just told you, that was a terrible day because I stood there, I had never seen people’s bodies just scattered on the street in my entire life. I had simply never seen anything like that in my life. And after that, everything changed completely. And once again, everything changed in life.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:21:39 – 01:21:40): Everything has changed?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:21:40 – 01:21:41): Absolutely.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:21:42 – 01:21:43): In what way?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:21:52 – 01:23:33): Well, you want revenge. I had never had it where I couldn’t forgive someone. And by and large, I think people make mistakes. This is about something else. Evil like that, a devil like that just came in like that, did that to people like chopped meat, butchered them. I mean, that’s what it looks like. And you just can’t fathom how that’s possible, and you want to find these people who aren’t human. You want to find them, and you just want to, you want to kill them. I mean, I had never wanted to kill a single human being. I had never felt anything like that. Pure revenge.

With time, you can’t forget that. And in moments like this, and our conversation brings back moments like that, and you have to be president and you have to calm down and be more, how to put it, diplomatic. Yeah, well, you can’t forgive, just forgive everything like that. And say, well, sorry, that’s Putin, a powerful country. Let’s just forget everything. Let’s forgive everything. And somehow, well, we’ll buy and sell gas or diesel or whatever. That’s difficult. You understand?

How the War Has Changed Him

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:23:35 – 01:24:03): Do you ever worry about how this experience has changed you? Because you have been irreversibly changed by this. I can tell both from meeting you, looking at how you used to be 3, 4, 5 years ago, you’ve been irreversibly changed. And you’re a father and you’re a husband. And at some point this war will be over, God willing. But do you ever think about how you are irreversibly changed?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:24:06 – 01:25:33): You can’t bring it back. It’s just, it’s 2 different worlds, a reevaluation of values. My only dream is to end this war. I desperately want justice. I just really want— I know so many people had their hearts ripped out and there won’t be a new heart. You have to give them at least something. So some trial, some justice, at least some moral solace is an absolute must. You can’t just leave it because that hole inside them, it won’t heal.

And there will be revenge, like I told you. And the revenge of so many people who lost everything, that naturally brings risks of some kind of ongoing military or combat actions and so forth. So it’s not that simple. It doesn’t just end like that. Why do we talk about a just peace? Some people ask, well, what is a just peace? Well, somehow there has to be justice. The guilty must be punished. At the very least, you have to show a path that it will happen. Maybe not right now, but that it will happen. It’s just totally impossible to simply forgive. And that, and you realize that you want to be with your kids, with your wife. Generally, you just want to end the war and get a little bit of a life.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:25:34 – 01:25:43): But if I asked Alina, your wife, how you have changed on a human level because of all of this, what might she say to me?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:25:45 – 01:27:00): I don’t know. She’d definitely say I’ve changed a lot. Yeah, she tells me sometimes. Yeah, well, what is she saying? Well, you know how it is. She focuses on different things, different values. You just want somehow. You want to hold onto something, the people close to you. You really crave that warmth. You want to break through this—

In a war, you fight and you’re lonely. In life before this war, you’re definitely not lonely because you have friends, company, business, then maybe politics, but you’re not lonely. I run a country and this is about something completely different right now. But when you hug your family, it’s just like that. Well, it means, well, it means there are people who love you. That matters.

Family, Love and Missing His Children

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:27:02 – 01:27:02): Do you miss them?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:27:03 – 01:27:09): Very much. Very much. Pointless sentimentality. Maybe that’s it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:27:14 – 01:27:14): Love.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:27:16 – 01:28:14): That’s how it is. Years have passed between this and this, years, years, years. I really, I miss them constantly. And it feels like that even when they’re right next to me. It’s just this habit, this habit of doing work and focusing exclusively on work. Even when they’re near, I miss them sometimes.

Meaning, well, again, I don’t like to complain and I’m not complaining. I chose my own path. And of course I didn’t choose the war, but I chose this path. Well, this war, it fell on my lifetime and on the lifetime of our generation. Yeah. Beautiful wife and beautiful kids.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:28:17 – 01:28:20): Your daughter is, your daughter, she’s not a child anymore.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:28:20 – 01:28:21): Yeah. Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:28:22 – 01:28:26): So they’ve all grown up in the last 4 years. She’s a young lady now.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:28:28 – 01:29:01): Very much so. She really has. Yeah. Grown up. Yes. And all the children of Ukraine, and it’s true. I’ve said this. The children of Ukraine grew up during the war. Totally true. They are all so grown up, and it’s so sad that childhood passed during a war. Well, but nonetheless, we believe in peace. Peace will prevail anyway, 100%. And my daughter and I are really great friends. She’s grown up now, and well, her English is better.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:29:02 – 01:29:04): Do you get to spend a lot of time with the kids?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:29:06 – 01:29:15): When there’s time, I try to be with them, to call, we talk. These days there are plenty of options. We talk online, we talk in different ways. That’s how it is.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:29:15 – 01:30:06): Is it possible, gosh, I’ve spent, since I was 18 years old, been running businesses and running a startup, I thought was a challenge, but it is incomparable from— And I say this because I think about how that pulled me away from the people in my life, my relationships, being so obsessed with business.

But it’s just totally incomparable to think about what that must be like to try and maintain those important relationships, especially with children, when your country is being invaded and you are the leader of that country. I almost can’t fathom how you can find moments of presence with them, like true presence. I understand how one might be able to fake presence for a short period of time, but true sort of intellectual presence, is it possible?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:30:10 – 01:30:57): Differently, but differently now, absolutely. But yes, that presence matters. And those moments you mentioned, you’ve been in business since you were 18, and some, I imagine, of your relationships become secondary, probably, while business always consumes your whole life. Well, at least it was that way for me.

And this reevaluation from this war and these images and these horrific moments definitely shows me that business is secondary. Everything is secondary. These people right here, that’s what matters most. Now, that you can’t get back. These years slip away, and in these intense moments, you remember these people. It’s important.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:31:00 – 01:31:08): And your wife, Alina, has been your rock through it all, I’ve heard you say. She’s been your stability throughout all of this, all of these crazy, crazy times.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:31:10 – 01:31:47): Well, we support each other. That’s true. We— I think that I have a very smart wife, and she is so real. We have real, we have real feelings. We have love and respect. I think that’s very important. To respect each other. And how should I put it? People should find each other interesting. I think that’s the most important thing. People need to find each other interesting.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:31:48 – 01:31:48): Yeah.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:31:48 – 01:31:52): And we find each other very interesting. We feel good. We feel very good.

His Mother’s Daily Calls

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:31:53 – 01:32:02): The other very important woman in your life, your parents are still here, but your mother, I heard she calls you almost every day still.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:32:02 – 01:32:03): Every single day.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:32:03 – 01:32:05): Every day. Every single day.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:32:05 – 01:32:06): That’s right. Every day.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:32:07 – 01:32:09): Really? Where does she— she’s living in Ukraine still?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:32:09 – 01:32:09): Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:32:09 – 01:32:13): When your mother calls you, what does she say every day? What is she asking you?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:32:13 – 01:32:42): Her first question is, “Did you actually pick up?” She’s already like that because I so often— she— I look, God, 12 missed calls. “Mom, I’m working.” I tell her, “12 calls. How can you call someone so many times?” And she keeps dialing. She’ll call you all day long until I pick up. So we make sure to speak once a day. She asks how I’m feeling.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:32:43 – 01:32:44): And is she worried about you?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:32:44 – 01:33:03): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. “How are you? How are you feeling? How are the kids? Tell me.” Right? “When is Putin going to end the war?” And I say, “Mom, we’re doing everything we can.”

The Situation on the Ground Today

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:33:06 – 01:33:26): And as things stand at the moment, for the people who don’t understand what’s actually going on on the ground in Ukraine, where the Russian troops currently are, what life is like on a day-to-day basis if you’re a Ukrainian, can you explain to me which parts of Ukraine are currently occupied and generally what life is like for Ukrainians at the moment?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:33:32 – 01:35:58): Occupied was Crimea. Then they took the Azov. That’s an inland sea of ours. And that’s our sea. They made it. Yes. They turned it into an inland sea. They took Mariupol. They took Mariupol, they took Berdiansk, all of the Azov. Kerch is a city on the Black Sea. They made it so we can’t get out.

Next day, Oleshky is where right now people and children are trapped without food, without anything. They won’t let them through. Right now we are working to unblock it. There were 2,500 people— Left Kherson. We fought to take back the major city of Kherson. We reclaimed it. Kherson is split by the Dnipro River. Our people live on one bank. The enemy is on the other bank, and that’s why they shell out Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, which is also under our control.

So they took Crimea, Donetsk region, Luhansk region. They couldn’t take like Mykolaiv, Kherson. This part. This part is ours. So upside, the map is just upside down. From Kharkiv here, this is what they call Luhansk Oblast right here. This is our Kramatorsk like this right here. [unclear], Donetsk Oblast right here. Zaporizhzhia is ours.

So basically people can see that all of this is roughly, sorry, I’m not very good at drawing. All of this is roughly 18 to 19% of our territory. That’s roughly, roughly it, roughly. Because their maps are one thing, to be honest. They sell one story to their people. We have different maps. We believe we’re right. Well, naturally they have their own approach to talking with society and presenting information, but roughly that’s what it is.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:35:59 – 01:36:05): And they’re attacking via missiles and drones other parts of Ukraine constantly, right?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:36:06 – 01:36:58): Completely. Yes. Yes. See, they’re focused on— well, honestly, you could point everywhere here. They’ve already started today. Right here, they killed people in Lutsk. That’s the western part of our country. Right here, a missile struck. And they’re hitting Kyiv. Pryluky, right here, we went with the British Secretary, saw 23 people killed. Zhytomyr is under constant shelling.

Well, Rivne has fewer strikes. Lviv, this part, fewer strikes here. This part, to be honest, all of this part is far away from the line of occupation, from the contact line, and from the Russian Federation. So obviously the distance is great, which is why there are no massive strikes there.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:36:59 – 01:36:59): Yes.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:36:59 – 01:37:01): Well, that’s roughly it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:37:02 – 01:37:03): What are they trying to accomplish?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:37:04 – 01:37:33): Odesa is being shelled, [unclear]. What do they want? To pull out of the east of our country so that Putin— and the east is, here’s what he wants. He wants, basically he wants to take the city of Zaporizhzhia, but he can’t. That’s a target for him. Zaporizhzhia and Kherson and Mykolaiv. All targets. But he doesn’t say that. He doesn’t say it. But after all, we liberated those cities. We liberated Kherson. And—

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:37:34 – 01:37:42): But have you heard directly from them as to what their demands are, what they say that they want to stop launching missiles?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:37:42 – 01:37:46): Yes. They basically say right here, this entire piece.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:37:48 – 01:37:50): They want to take pretty much the east of Ukraine.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:37:50 – 01:39:22): They want— Yes, the east. That means they want Sloviansk. Well, these are key: Sloviansk, Kramatorsk, Druzhkivka, and that leads right out into the Dnipropetrovsk region, into Pavlohrad, Dnipropetrovsk. These are the most— Kryvyi Rih is my hometown. Nikopol is an industrial hub, an engineering hub, a manufacturing hub. It’s the economy of our country.

And so it’s very dangerous because if you surrender this part to them, and this is heavily reinforced defense of our nation right here, like this. And if we hand these cities of ours over to them, then the risk is huge. If he wants to keep going, he could seize a huge number of our cities if he pushes further. And the risk is real. Nobody guarantees anything. You understand?

Everyone talks about security guarantees and we’re open. We’re completely open to that. We say, well, okay, security guarantees, let’s do NATO. Well, NATO, the Russians. Well, again, they keep sending signals to the Russians because you have to give security guarantees. On top of that, like I told you, the biggest compromise with so many dead, the biggest compromise we’re already making is a ceasefire. Let’s just stop this war. But they want us to pull out even further. And if we pull out, where are the security guarantees? Aside from the fact that it’s unfair.

Could Russia Use Nuclear Weapons?

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:39:24 – 01:39:38): You talked about the barbaric nature of how they’ve treated Ukrainians. Are you at all concerned that they might escalate to using more horrific weapons like nuclear weapons at any point? Has that ever crossed your mind?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:39:42 – 01:40:55): Well, it crosses everyone’s mind after what they’ve done that they might do something worse. But as of today, well, I don’t think they’ll take the risk of using nuclear weapons because then I think they won’t— definitely, I’m sure they won’t have any allies left, including countries like America, China. Well, excuse me, but that’s far too dangerous even for nuclear powers.

That means if one country can do it, then if there’s a conflict somewhere else on another continent, in another theater, I don’t know, the Middle East, whatever, that means if a nuclear weapon is used once, it might be used a second and a third time. So I don’t think Putin will risk nuclear weapons.

But then again, we’re dealing with— Look, we’re dealing with a man and with a system that until the end of his days will hold on to him and he to it, because only when his life ends will he leave the Kremlin and hand over, well, physically hand over, naturally transfer power. I’m more than certain of that.

Trump, Diesel and the Energy Strikes

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:40:56 – 01:41:23): Regarding the current situation this week with Trump, with Russia, and this deal that’s been done, from my understanding, because there’s an energy crisis globally, Trump has now done a deal with Russia for diesel. He then asked you not to attack any energy infrastructure in Russia. No. There’s a video that I actually have here of him describing this, which a lot of people have now seen. I’ll play it.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

DONALD TRUMP: (01:41:23 – 01:42:21): Well, I look at it differently. Zelenskyy could have settled this war many times. He chooses not to. Very difficult. It’s a war that should have never been started. If I were president, if the election weren’t rigged, I would’ve been president and that war would’ve never started.

We said, you can do whatever you want to Russia. Don’t hit the refineries because that’s a world problem that’s caused. And he wants to make problems for the world. He wants to make problems for our farmers, our ranchers with diesel fuel because Russia supplies a large portion of the diesel fuel throughout the world. And we told him, do whatever you want, but don’t hit the diesel fuel because there’s a big problem, big shortage.

And what does he do? He goes and hits the diesel fuel. Do what you want. Don’t hit refineries. There’s plenty of targets. And he went out and he hit, and he’s not going to affect our farmers. And he’s not going to affect our ranches and he’s not going to affect the rest of the world. So he better damn well stop.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:42:22 – 01:42:25): And in that, he says that he thinks Ukraine needs a new president.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:42:26 – 01:45:47): Yeah. First of all, diesel exports have no impact. The volume of diesel exports is so negligible from Russia that it has zero impact on prices in the United States of America. That is totally false information. That’s first. Second, it makes no sense for us to strike Russia’s energy infrastructure. We retaliate because they strike our energy infrastructure.

We’ve spoken a lot about this. The Russians hit our energy grid. Our people live without power. We don’t have oil, gas, diesel, and so on. That hurts them. What hurts us is electricity. They hit our electricity. We strike back at their diesel. They make money on diesel and spend it on weapons.

My offer— excuse me, but I don’t need this. I’ve always told President Trump, broker an energy ceasefire, at least on energy. At least let’s give people light. And good for the Russians, they’ll sell their oil if they want to, if that’s what you need. But President Trump can’t reach an agreement with Putin on this. Putin refuses him an energy ceasefire.

And so the president decided to pin this problem not on Putin, but on me, explaining to his people that because of this, diesel prices in America are going up. That is completely untrue. And I don’t understand. I have a good relationship with him, with Trump, and I think it’s wrong and unacceptable that he pins Russia’s aggression and Russia’s killings on me. He is shifting the context, and that’s not fair. And that’s why I honestly said, “That’s unfair.”

Ceasefire. He says, it’s not— they can’t work it out. Well, if you can’t work it out, but you need diesel, though again, I think this is just deflecting the focus away from Iran, from what’s happening in the Middle East. The entire volume is blocked over there. That’s exactly where nothing is working out. Energy, the Strait of Hormuz is blocked. That’s the root of the problem. But everything gets shifted onto us, and I’m made the target as the leader of our country.

So I said, okay, you can’t force Putin to stop the war and make an energy truce. Give me air defense missiles. I won’t fire at anyone. I’ll protect our energy sector. So where am I being unfair? In what way? I asked him, give us missiles. Not for free. Again, not even for free. Europeans are funding this, funding all of it. There’s an agreement, but they won’t give them to us. They say we can’t. They give and have given everything to the Middle East.

Look, it’s just kind of, well, it’s just like, well, it’s unfair. To the Middle East, Patriot missiles, with Putin a diesel deal, I’m expected not to respond to an energy attack inside Ukraine. And diesel prices are rising in America because of— it’s unfair and you need a different president. Well, diesel prices, I guarantee you 100%, diesel prices don’t depend on the volume that Russia sells. They just don’t.

Is There a Realistic Path to Peace?

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:45:48 – 01:46:04): And about 76% of Ukrainians say they wouldn’t want an election now, according to some recent surveys as well. My last question to you, Mr. President, is, is there a realistic path to the end of this war? And what does that look like? A realistic path.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:46:06 – 01:46:22): Trump can bring Putin to the negotiating table very easily. Because he needs to, the way he talks about me, President Trump, he needs to adopt that kind of rhetoric about Putin.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:46:23 – 01:46:24): Why do you think he’s not?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:46:25 – 01:46:48): I don’t know. Honestly, I don’t know. He’s got sanctions on his desk. It wasn’t him voting. Congress voted for strong sanctions. He can do it. I don’t know why. Maybe they have a special relationship, maybe something else. I can’t tell. I don’t know everything. I can only guess some economic deals and so on, an old rela— I don’t know. I don’t want to—

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:46:48 – 01:46:55): Well, the midterms are coming up and I think he might be a little bit concerned about energy prices in America more so than maybe Ukraine.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:46:59 – 01:48:07): Yeah. Well, look, diesel prices, I give you a 100%. Diesel prices don’t depend on the volume Russia sells. They don’t. Americans export energy resources. Americans’ energy exports aren’t banned for Americans. American companies export. It’s interesting. Why do American companies export energy? Well, because how can the President of the United States ban private sector exports? Well, I don’t think he can. And why would he? It sells and money comes in.

Well, just, well, you know how life, time, all secrets, all mysteries always come to light. It just takes time. Time is definitely on the side of those who are open and ready for honest dialogue and fight. Yes. Which means time will be on our side.

A Message to America

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:48:08 – 01:48:11): What are your last words to our audience?

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:48:11 – 01:48:13): I hope that it’s not last words.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:48:14 – 01:48:21): Last words for today. Last words today. Half of our audience are in America.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:48:21 – 01:49:05): I wish America, which finds itself in a very tough situation, I believe, because the world has gone crazy. What’s happening with the Russians, with Iran, the fact that people want blood, people want wars. I wish America would stay a great nation, be strong, be peaceful, have the chance. Someone works, someone wants be home with the kids, pray, have a family dinner. I wish America tranquility, peace, and we’re grateful for everything America has done for Ukraine. We won’t forget this.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:49:10 – 01:49:11): President, thank you so much.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:49:11 – 01:49:13): Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:49:13 – 01:49:20): I know you’ve had a really rough week and it’s been very tough, so I really appreciate you taking the time. I’ve had everything going on with Starlink and the internet and— All the challenges.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:49:21 – 01:49:21): Normal.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:49:23 – 01:49:23): Yeah.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:49:23 – 01:49:23): Thank you so much.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:49:23 – 01:49:26): And we really do wish you the best. We really wish you the best. Okay.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: (01:49:27 – 01:49:36): Yes. And I was happy to hear, to see you and to have a dialogue. We had good dialogue. I think, I think we spoke very good. So thanks so much.

STEVEN BARTLETT: (01:49:36 – 01:49:56): Thank you so much. All the best. Thank you so much.

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