Transcript of Vijay Mallya Podcast: Rise & Downfall Of Kingfisher Airlines, Loans & RCB

Okay? And I was a guarantor. The government has recovered 14,100 crores from me. Right? Now, if I had done chori, if I had duped the banks, where does this all add up?

Till very recently, there was absolutely no official figure of recovery, right? So everybody, the legacy media in particular, wrote whatever they wanted, right? And I was in no position to contradict. Today, after the government of India has acknowledged the recovery of 14,100 crores, I think it’s my turn to ask them what they have to say about it.

Setting the Record Straight

RAJ SHAMANI: Because you say that a lot of things about you are false narrative. Let’s go down to from your childhood. We speak from the beginning and you tell me everything that people have been said people think is wrong. And I’ll try to present the facts and the narratives which I have heard and which I have gathered through my research.

VIJAY MALLYA: All right?

RAJ SHAMANI: And if you’re okay with counter somewhere, I’ll counter you as well.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, please, please feel free to counter me. If there’s something that you feel is debatable or you want to make a counterpoint, I’m ready for it.

RAJ SHAMANI: Perfect. Because I feel that’s my little responsibility out there, to hear the right side and the wrong side both and let then people think about it and let them make the right call.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s fair.

RAJ SHAMANI: Perfect. So before even I ask you about childhood, do you. Do you regret anything?

VIJAY MALLYA: I regret one thing, which is that after all my hard work, all the value that I created in so many multiple ways, that effectively the government of India and of course the media made me a zero from a hero. And that’s a fact of life that I have had to stomach and live with. Now, whether that was justified or not is something that I’m sure will be encompassed in your own questions.

The Early Years: From Hero to Zero

RAJ SHAMANI: Zero from a hero. Talk about building of a hero first. And we’ll come down to zero again. So before the billionaire Vijay Mallya, before the controversy, before all of this flamboyance and scandals and things that people talk about. Who was Vijay Mallya as a child? Where were you born? What did you do? How was your childhood? Tell me about it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Born in Calcutta, moved to our hometown Bangalore. Went back to Calcutta. Did my schooling there, did my college education there in Calcutta. And my upbringing under my father was a very normal, I would say strict upbringing.

RAJ SHAMANI: Really?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me an incident. Strict childhood.

VIJAY MALLYA: Two things. When I was still in school, Class 9 at La Martiniere in Calcutta. My marks were not very good in class. I was a mid ranker only because I took a lot of interest in sport and extracurricular activities. But I didn’t, I you know, concentrate fully on studies and my mark sheets.

And he told me, and I think most people know it, he was exceptionally intelligent, was a product of the dune school I think topped his class. So he expected me to also top my class. Nevertheless, he said something to me which I think I remember till today.

Two things made a profound impact. One, if you’re not good enough, you are not going to step into my shoes. And the second thing he said, he said, do you realize that while I say step into my shoes there may not be any shoes at all. Because the government and its then socialist policies may have taken everything away from us. And the only thing I can leave to you is your education. So take it seriously.

I think I repaid some amount of faith because for my last three years in school, 9, 10, 11. I think I came within the top three in class. And he was quite happy about that.

Debunking the Spoiled Child Narrative

RAJ SHAMANI: So weren’t you a little spoiled as child?

VIJAY MALLYA: Spoiled? Oh my God. I was anything but spoiled.

RAJ SHAMANI: Really. You had all the fancy toys. You had all the things that you know.

VIJAY MALLYA: Fancy toys at all. That’s completely false narrative. I. After I passed out of school and when I went to St. Xavier’s College to study BCom, my father was very clear. You go to college at 6 o’ clock in the morning and when you finish at 10:30 you go and work a full day at the office as a management trainee.

I was put on a stipend of 400 rupees a month. And that 400 rupees never increased right the way my time through college. So that’s all I got. 400 rupees a month. And was working in those days. Phipson & Co. Limited, Old Courthouse street in Calcutta. Every day after college.

RAJ SHAMANI: Aren’t there stories that you used to go to college in a very fancy car and you removed the silencer just to show the noise of your car, the loudness of your car. And you were always a show off, weren’t you?

VIJAY MALLYA: I was no show off at all. And the fancy car that I have was a secondhand standard herald.

RAJ SHAMANI: So where are these stories coming from?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know. People’s narratives, people’s perceptions. That’s why it’s important to correct those perceptions. You know, talking about noise, even a Fat Fatiha in Delhi makes a hell of a lot of noise. You don’t have to drive a fancy car to make a noise down the street.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you are telling me that all these stories of you having a, you having fancy toys, remote controlled cars and then fancy cars with loud noises, all of this is false?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I may have tampered with the silencer of my car, okay, Because I was always into kind of fast cars, loved motor racing and stuff like that. But you know, I mean it still remained a standard herald.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why did you do that? Like just to show off, like the noise and everything.

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, if you can modify the silencer of a car, like you can modify the top end of a car’s engine to make it go a little quicker. I mean that’s some, that’s the basics of motorsport.

Confidence vs. Arrogance

RAJ SHAMANI: But how are you as a personality wise? Were you confident? Were you a little arrogant?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, this is all a question of perception. Arrogant is also your understanding of arrogance. My understanding of arrogance. But I’ll tell you one thing, I was always self confident. And whenever I was invited to give talks at various universities and educational establishments, I always told the youngsters that when they start off life there must be self confidence.

Because it is only self confidence that will bring out the best in you. And I still believe that till today. And because I started young, I am passionate about youth empowerment.

RAJ SHAMANI: But this would have not been the case always as a kid. We all have like lot of insecurities. It’s not always confidence. What was your biggest insecurity when you were growing up?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t. Yeah, probably the biggest insecurity was when the examination results with you and what my dad would have to say about it. But no beyond that, you know, my life is pretty plain and simple. Great bunch of school friends, great bunch of college buddies in Calcutta, not the glitzy lights of Bombay.

And yeah, so it was pretty Normal, but, you know, nothing fancy, but I had a very strict set of supervisors at work who were clearly instructed by my father to be tough with me, to make sure, you know, I worked my butt off and I’m none the happier for it. That’s what made me.

RAJ SHAMANI: But did you, did you ever get to a position or in a thinking as a child that one day I’ll be powerful, one day I’ll be very rich?

Early Career and Father’s Influence

VIJAY MALLYA: No, absolutely not. I mean, how could I be so presumptuous? Here I had a dad who was hands on working, 24/7, young, and who told me that if I didn’t measure up, I’d have no place in the business. So I couldn’t be presumptive, could I?

RAJ SHAMANI: But your father was a wealthy man. In those times there were only few wealthy people. So you would presume this, right? Like I will have all this wealth inherited, I’ll be maybe bigger than my father or maybe just have all of these things.

VIJAY MALLYA: I didn’t have any such aspirations in those days. And wealth was something that was very relative. And my father certainly was a very frugal spender. So irrespective of how much wealth he had, he certainly wasn’t a spend thrift.

RAJ SHAMANI: You said when you used to go to work, your father put strict supervisors. What would those strict supervisors made you do?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, first of all, make sure that I came to the office on time straight after college. It wasn’t as if I’d sort of roll up whenever I wanted to.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: The second I was given a clear set of tasks, I was a salesman. I had to go and visit the shops in the market, I had to visit distributors. I had to spend time with the accounts department to understand accounting. Corporate accounting? Yeah, and marketing. You know, sit with the ad agencies and stuff like that.

So it was a comprehensive training program, but with no forgiveness in any sense. I had to work a full day. I couldn’t sort of get up and go or come when I liked, which was fine. I mean, looking back, it was a great grounding.

International Training Experience

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened next? So you were in Xavier’s, you started going to work and then you went to States.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, my dad sent me off to the States to work for American Hurts.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: American Hurts as it was then known, became then Aventus and now the pharmaceutical company. The global company is called Sanofi. So yeah, I was sent there, worked there once again as a management trainee. I then was brought to England to work in Jensen and Nicholson. I was a paint foreman in the paint factory. Used to be mixing paint at night. And, yeah, I mean, slowly I understood what my father’s methods were.

RAJ SHAMANI: What was his method?

VIJAY MALLYA: Which was basically a strict training regimen. And I did pretty well because I can tell you he expressed his appreciation for my work. I got a pretty good report card from America. He was, he said he was proud of me. I did well here in England mixing paint.

And when I went back to India, his health was becoming indifferent. Even though at that time he was only 57 years old, his health was becoming indifferent. He had a history of heart disease, so he sort of got me to work for him in the core business. And yeah, then, of course, the story of Kingfisher, the story of McDowell’s number one bagpiper and all these brands that subsequently became very well known began then.

Father-Son Relationship

RAJ SHAMANI: How was the relationship with your father?

VIJAY MALLYA: The relationship with my father was excellent. He was a man of few words. But there’s one thing he did which embarrassed me no end, that every time he saw me, he gave me a big kiss on my cheek. Whether it was at an airport or in the office or at home, he’d give me a hug and a big kiss on the cheek. I mean, bless him for that.

RAJ SHAMANI: Was he, did he ever doubt you that you will be able, whether you will be able to continue and build his legacy or not?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think the biggest certificate I got was from my bosses in America. And they gave me a pretty good certificate, a pretty good report. And that finally, I think, gave him the confidence to say, ah, my son is stepping up to my expectations.

The Birth of Kingfisher Brand

RAJ SHAMANI: What was your first bold step in your father’s company?

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh, Kingfisher. I went to my father and I said, I need 10 lakh rupees to market Kingfisher beer. He said, that’s a princely sum of money. What are you going to do with it? How are you going to do it, etc. etc.

Because I saw in the archives of United Breweries this label of Kingfisher beer, which had been actually launched in 1857, okay. Gathering dust and, you know, with a pretty archaic Kingfisher bird on it, sort of prehistoric version. But I said to myself, the mere word brand Kingfisher is very evocative in so many ways. It could be made into a fun brand.

Now, my time in Calcutta, going back to my training days when I spent time with them, with the marketing department, more importantly, interacted with the people in the advertising agencies. My time in America, where, you know, I still remember the two big banks, which is Bank of America and Citibank and Citibank said the city never sleeps. And Bank of America came out saying, we caught the city napping. You know, that was the level of marketing advertising, tongue in cheek stuff which caught your attention.

And so I became fascinated with marketing and I came away back to India, started working in the business. And I always said, a brand needs a personality. Of course, I very quickly realized in India, I couldn’t replicate what they did in America because for alcohol, India is a media dark environment where the advertising of alcohol is banned.

So in a way, I had to think of ways of authoring surrogate advertising, which I did pretty successfully. You know, not some Mickey Mouse stuff where if you want to advertise an alcoholic brand that you sort of suddenly, you know, produce some music sets. I built a full water business around Kingfisher and a water business of significant enough size that you could justify advertising it. Okay. And therefore, you advertise the core brand.

So I gave Kingfisher a very colorful personality because that’s what evokes you, you know, like McDowell number one. Golden moments. McDowell moments. It’s evocative. It’s supposed to convey that, you know, if you want to hang out and have a good time with your friend, golden moments, well, it’s a McDowell moment. So there were many, many such examples of how I actually gave brands their personalities. And in many ways, I supplemented by becoming the brand ambassador myself.

RAJ SHAMANI: And all of this was happening when your father was still alive?

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Strategic Acquisitions During Prohibition Fears

RAJ SHAMANI: You said India was media dark when it comes to alcohol, which still is the reality. And there was a point where I think government banned alcohol.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no, no, no.

RAJ SHAMANI: Or what was that?

VIJAY MALLYA: Certain states introduced prohibition, such as Andhra Pradesh. Unified Andhra Pradesh. Of course, Gujarat has always been dry, but the advertising of alcohol is banned in India and has been banned and still is banned.

RAJ SHAMANI: When was this time when you started acquiring a lot of alcohol brands? Because a lot of those brands were scared of the state because the state was getting involved in the alcohol business, or maybe they wanted to ban or prohibit certain things. What was this time where you started acquiring certain alcohol brands and cheap because you and your father was bullish on it?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, that was in 1977, when Moraji Desai was the prime minister of India and he publicly announced that there should be prohibition all India. Okay, okay. Which means that alcohol should be banned across the country. So obviously, the stocks, the value of the stocks and shares of almost all alcoholic beverage companies, whether distilleries or breweries, fell.

My father was very clear that prohibition could never succeed in India. And therefore he bought. And so that’s how we became number one by quite a fair distance, because all those who panicked and sold out, my father acquired.

RAJ SHAMANI: But was there something you guys knew which others didn’t, or it was just pure conviction?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, it was just pure conviction because we knew that Prohibition had not even succeeded in the United States. And plus, if you look at the amount of revenue generation for the state governments through the sale of alcohol, there’s no way in the world that prohibition would have succeeded in India.

Taking Over After Father’s Death

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened after your father’s death? You were doing this successful sting. You were taking bold steps. You wanted to make alcohol a cool brand. All of this is happening. Everything was going right. Right. What happened then?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I was in the US I had gone to finalize promotion and export of Black Dog Scotch whiskey when my father sadly passed away at a cocktail party in then Bombay. And he was only 59. Nobody ever expected him to pass so young. I was just past 27. So I took the Air India flight and flew back from New York and performed my father’s last rites. Then the fun began because my father surrounded himself with a few stalwarts.

RAJ SHAMANI: Meaning.

VIJAY MALLYA: People who he put in positions of great authority who were also very close to him personally. So he had somebody running the western India businesses, somebody running the eastern India businesses, somebody running the southern India businesses.

And don’t ever forget, in those days, the structure was that United Breweries limited was the holding company, and the other companies in the group were largely controlled by its largest shareholder, United Breweries, or they were subsidiary companies.

And so the inevitable debate started on what next, what role I should have. Of course, people acknowledged that I was in the business, but people, I think, were a little reticent to speak openly about their own aspirations of being the chairman.

Then something very funny happened. We had annual general meeting of shareholders that was coming due. The shareholders in the front line who had seen me with my dad, proposed my name. And that’s how all other aspirants were silenced, because they couldn’t publicly sort of get up and say that they were more qualified, particularly when it was evident I had shareholder support.

And there I was. I was installed in what I call the hot seats at a very young age. But fortunately, thanks to my upbringing, my father’s insistence on proper training, familiarization with the business, time in America, time working with him, I wasn’t raw. I had a fair amount under my belt to be able to address the challenge of the role.

Management Philosophy and Team Building

RAJ SHAMANI: I was reading an article where it said that you didn’t trust people who was, who were in control at the time of your father’s, when your father was a chairman. So that’s why you hired your people and your friends because you didn’t know that if you could actually go to them for the right advice or.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no, no, no, that’s completely misleading. It’s false. I never hired any of my friends. But let’s put it this way, they would have been too young and inexperienced in any case. You know, I mean, as I said, I was barely 28. They would be my contemporaries. So the question of hiring them and putting them in management positions just didn’t arise.

But I encourage a lot of professionalism from within. I mean people who then became the president of the spirits division, of the breweries division and all the rest of it. I mean my father’s time, the average age of the regional directors and the regional satraps was probably around 60. Between 60 and 65. And in five years after I reorganized, I mean the average age was about 40. Okay.

And these were all professional managers promoted from within the ranks. I mean, yes, there were a couple of exceptions where I hired people from extremely well known organizations like major consultancy firms, so on and so forth. But beyond that, largely it was all internal promotion.

Contrasting Management Styles

RAJ SHAMANI: Compare. Give me differences between before, okay, so when your father was the chairman versus when you were the chairman. Give me three, four differences. What happened in United Breweries?

VIJAY MALLYA: It was the entire approach. For instance, mine was a decentralized, accountability led approach.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: I would have monthly operating review meetings called MORs for each line of business.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: And that’s all I wanted to know about how the businesses were performing on a regular day to day basis. I wasn’t leaning over the shoulders of the management team and trying to micromanage things when opportunities came along. Then of course we’d had separate discussions.

So if you empower people, accountability comes along with it because people are also motivated to demonstrate their own capabilities. Now my father’s style was, as I said, far more hands on, owner operated micromanagement style. And he spent a lot of time doing it.

I had a lot of free time as I will tell you as we proceed, because of this decentralization and this whole new management culture that I introduced in the UB group. And this was between, let’s say 1983 and 1986, 87. That is why I was able to then acquire the Berger Paints global business based here in the UK and actually become a non resident Indian.

RAJ SHAMANI: In 86, 88. Okay.

Personal Brand and Public Perception

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. And I still have a letter from the Reserve Bank of India confirming that from 1988 I would be treated as a non-resident Indian for tax and exchange control purposes. And the reason I… And of course that obviously meant that I couldn’t spend more than 180 days in India. Well, the luxury of spending 180 days out of India running this new opportunity in international business.

RAJ SHAMANI: Beans business.

VIJAY MALLYA: I was able to do it only because of the decentralized management structure implemented in India. So both the foreign businesses and the Indian businesses ran very well.

RAJ SHAMANI: Give me differences and similarities between Vital Mallya and Vijay Mallya.

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, Vital Mallya thought 100 times about spending money. Vijay Mallya probably thought twice. Yeah, well, you know, I guess it’s age, it’s aspiration, it’s age, it’s different styles and outlook on life.

RAJ SHAMANI: Was there any difference in terms of public attention as well? You were pretty loud. Your personality was…

VIJAY MALLYA: No. Look, once again, you can think whatever you want to think of me and so can the whole world. Just because I’m a self-confident guy who is not afraid of public speaking, who doesn’t suffer from stage fright. If you want to say that I am arrogant, flamboyant, go ahead and say it. I can’t deny it.

My father was very shy of public speaking. Totally the opposite. I am a very confident public speaker. I used to debate in school. I used to participate in drama in school so I can speak.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you didn’t want public recognition? You loved speaking?

VIJAY MALLYA: No. Well, if somebody asked me a question or I was invited to speak, I’d speak and people would, well, in some cases tell me I’m talking nonsense and in most cases say they like my speech. But I was able to communicate from a platform.

RAJ SHAMANI: But when you speak certain things and tweak your speeches in a way that… That becomes headlines.

VIJAY MALLYA: I never looked for headlines. I never ever looked for headlines. The headlines were created around me by the media. You know, let’s take the case of flamboyance and let’s spend a minute on analyzing flamboyance. To me, flamboyance means loving life and appreciating the good things in life. That’s what flamboyance is in a public way.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

The Making of a Young Chairman

VIJAY MALLYA: That is what I would say is the meaning of flamboyance. How old was I when my father died? 28. Compare me to other industrialists in India at that time. I was 28. I was chairman of UB Group, who was chairman of RPG Enterprises. Mr. Ammaprasad Gwenka, who was the chairman of Reliance Dhirubhayambani, who was the chairman of the Birla Group, Mr. B.K. Birla.

I was a contemporary of their children, but I was thrown into the deep end. So I was a group chairman being compared to people who are my father’s age now. As a youngster, I had the passions of young people. Like, I enjoyed a good car, I enjoyed my drinks, I enjoyed parties, I enjoyed music, I enjoyed sport.

Not all of my father’s contemporaries who suddenly became my contemporaries in business lived that way. They were more conservative, you know, more at home, more domestic, consistent with their own age. So suddenly the media decided, ha, this guy, chairman of UB Group is flamboyant.

I was termed flamboyant only because I did what every other youngster aspired to do. You know, I mean, at the end of the day you have to make allowances, age related allowances, let’s put it that way. But it’s okay. I have no regrets. I… I didn’t, I didn’t spend anybody else’s money, I spent my own money. I lived my life the way I wanted to live my life.

If I look back, I’ve got millions of miles of corporate experience under my belt starting off at a very young age. And I hope people appreciate the more positive contributions that I have made rather than the persistently negative narrative that has overtaken and overshadowed effectively a whole career.

I don’t think I ever use that word, flamboyant. It was the media and the narrative they created around me that was flamboyant for their own purposes. Now I just lived like any other moderate, moderately wealthy 28 year old would live.

RAJ SHAMANI: No.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Extraordinary life.

VIJAY MALLYA: How can it be extraordinary? In what way? Do you know what the exchange controls were in India? Do you know if you could import a Ferrari in India today? You can, but go back to the 1985, 86. Could you import a Ferrari? No way in the world.

RAJ SHAMANI: So did you or did you know…

VIJAY MALLYA: You could only buy cars from the State Trading Corporation through an auction process.

RAJ SHAMANI: In Delhi, but you ended up buying all of them.

VIJAY MALLYA: I could not.

RAJ SHAMANI: Later you bought it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, I like good cars. I race cars. I’ve been racing cars since I was a teenager, okay? I brought a Formula One car into India to race, okay? When my father was still alive. In fact, when I won the race at Shalavaram, okay, near then Madras, now Chennai, I called him from the racetrack and said I won the race. He was very happy.

So it wasn’t as if I was trying to do things behind people’s back. But okay, I was fond of motorsports back then.

Media Perception and Reality

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, so it came from media. But did you enjoy the tag of playboy?

VIJAY MALLYA: Why did I have the time to enjoy or spend my time and energy denying? I just lived my life, did my work, and I think, whoever you may ask, I work really hard.

RAJ SHAMANI: See, this is very… Okay, this is very like a media answer. Okay, what did you… You were aware that people call you flamboyant? You were aware that this is the image being built. You were aware that headline… What was your reaction? What did you start secretly? Did you enjoy it?

VIJAY MALLYA: No way.

RAJ SHAMANI: So what was your reaction? The moment people would write it, you were like, ignore it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course I would ignore it. What have I done for the last nine years?

RAJ SHAMANI: But at that time, you didn’t speak.

VIJAY MALLYA: Let me tell you something. Being referred to as flamboyant some people may take as a compliment, but nobody will tolerate being called choreography, thief, fugitive, right? These are damning words. I ignored all of it because I knew I couldn’t fight it. Much like I ignored flamboyance, I couldn’t spend all my time devoted to contradicting what the media wrote. Yeah. And now…

But okay, let me also tell you, I referred to earlier, I said, you know, this whole theme of flamboyance, the media, if you’d see the pattern of their reportage on me, okay? I mean, they kept on writing things, which really, I thought, these guys don’t have anything better to do. Vijay Mallya… Vijay Mallya is hosting a New Year’s party at Kingfisher Villa. Vijay Mallya is doing this, that, and other things. Okay?

Bottom line is they created a narrative of a personality that helped them to sell their own media. One day, there was a terribly wrong, factually incorrect article in one of the large newspapers in India. So I called the owner. I said, how could you possibly publish something like this without checking the facts?

RAJ SHAMANI: What did he say?

VIJAY MALLYA: Sorry, your name sells. So they created this animal called Vijay Mallya, whose name started selling. So they could… They could… They could… They could, you know, get more eyeballs, more readership, more viewership.

But be that as it may, I lived my life. What was my objectives? I am not apologetic for the life I lived because I didn’t spend anybody else’s money except my own. I didn’t borrow one rupee from anybody. Okay, I was much maligned, much complimented, but effectively, I was my own brand ambassador.

Take the case of one much talked about phrase. King of Good Times. I’m not crazy to walk around with a label on my chest saying King of Good Times. Read. And this is where somebody must make the effort. See the label of the Kingfisher beer that was developed, it says the King of Good Times. The personality of Kingfisher Beer was the King of Good Times.

Media started calling me the King of Good Times. So tell me, me being the King of Good Times will not help sell the beer.

RAJ SHAMANI: But it did.

VIJAY MALLYA: Because the beer itself was the genuine King of Good Times. And the personality that I gave Kingfisher, promoting sport, promoting fashion, promoting music, sponsoring motor racing. So all the stuff that’s exciting to youngsters that represented the personality of the Kingfisher brand. That’s why Kingfisher was such a success.

Building the Kingfisher Brand

RAJ SHAMANI: But talk to me about building of Kingfisher. Don’t you think it was a like… At least that’s what I think. It was a very well curated strategy that I will become a brand which represents Kingfisher.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I was brand ambassador. And I have done it not only for Kingfisher, but take the case of our spirits business. I actually came on national television with an ad encouraging people not to drink and drive. I did it myself. I didn’t get some film star to do it. I did it myself.

RAJ SHAMANI: So becoming a personal brand was a strategy then?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course it was.

RAJ SHAMANI: So then why does it bother you that you were tagged as like the…

VIJAY MALLYA: King of Good Times? But that’s what I’m saying. But I am not the person who labeled myself as King of Good Times. You curated that. The media started calling me the King of Good Times. Fine.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because subtly you curated this.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I didn’t curate King of Good Times. In what way?

RAJ SHAMANI: By actually promoting a lifestyle which every young person would aspire to.

VIJAY MALLYA: Why not? Young people are entitled to aspirations. Young people are entitled to improve lifestyles. Young people are entitled to treat themselves. Yeah, but that doesn’t mean I went around the whole world saying, well, you know what? I’m the King of Good Times. No way. Never said it even once.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you knew it will happen.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I didn’t. How should I care? I achieved my objective of making Kingfisher the number one selling beer. That’s it.

RAJ SHAMANI: How did that happen?

VIJAY MALLYA: What happened along the way is irrelevant.

The Success Story of Kingfisher

RAJ SHAMANI: How did this happen? Kingfisher Beer. How did it become number one? Tell me story of Kingfisher.

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, when I took over this business, Golden Eagle or Mohan Meeken Breweries was the largest beer company in India. Today, United Breweries Limited controls almost 52% of the beer market in India. Kingfisher is, I mean, not very many product categories that can… Can lay claim to 52% market, national market share. But yeah, Kingfisher is by far the number one selling brand.

That’s because, yes, I curated a personality around Kingfisher, around fun, around excitement, around vibrancy, color. I created the brand and I achieved my objective. You take the case of McDowell Number One. I mean, once again, this whole golden moments, McDowell moments, right? It was a little more sober than the Kingfisher ads because the target demographic was different. But it’s the largest selling whiskey in the world today, Number One. Right. All these brands I created, tell me.

RAJ SHAMANI: One turning point which just made everything good for you in Kingfisher.

VIJAY MALLYA: Kingfisher beer specifically, it’s a sustained effort.

RAJ SHAMANI: But when was the first time you thought, okay, now it’ll work?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because it was always working from day one. Yeah. When I relaunched a new packaging, right. Make it more appealing on the shelf. Started sponsoring music, fashion events, got more brand attention. Automatically the sales started picking up. And then, you know, as we went along promoting our marketing strategy, which was clearly effective, the sales followed. Same thing with McDowell Number One whiskey. Nothing’s overnight. National brands are not built overnight.

RAJ SHAMANI: There wasn’t one moment that you could pinpoint. Or was it?

VIJAY MALLYA: How can you… How can you pinpoint a moment? Because it isn’t like switching on and off a light switch.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why did you get conviction that Kingfisher beer will work? Because it was little expensive than other ones.

VIJAY MALLYA: We had brands such as UB, Royal Flying Horse, we had Jubilee. Now, you tell me, even though they were my brands, does any one of these evoke any excitement in you? No. But if I say to you Kingfisher, I mean, you take notice, right? So that’s the platform I built on. All right?

Similarly, as I said, I mean, you take the case of McDowell Number One. It was targeted at slightly higher demographic, but it went along with more sophisticated merchandising and stuff like that, which augured well for the brand. And today, as the Indian economy has grown, as consumer spending power has gone up, it’s the world’s biggest brand, selling about 32 million cases per year.

Building the Kingfisher Brand

RAJ SHAMANI: What was the biggest challenge in building of Kingfisher beer and McDowell’s or everything was just painted red and it worked out for you?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no, there was nothing red about McDowell. It was all black and gold. The only one around that’s red is Kingfisher. No, I think more than challenges, I look at opportunities. I mean, you know, 2005, I bought shovel as my biggest competitor. I mean, that propelled the spirits business, I mean, to number one position by far. Brought on board bands like Royal Challenge and all the rest of it.

So, I mean, those were pretty bold business decisions, which once again, self confidence. I had to pay $300 million for the company. Big amount of money, but made it work. That’s how United Spirits was created today with a market cap of almost 1 lakh crores. So, you know, I mean, if you have the confidence to do it, you go do it.

The Paint Business Venture

RAJ SHAMANI: You said you bought Bojo paints at the same time. Talk about that. Why paints? All of a sudden you were making money with alcohol. You were minting profits out of alcohol. You were convinced that brands like Kingfisher and then at one point other brands as well, would work out really well, which it did. Why buying a paint business like this is so the pain.

VIJAY MALLYA: British Paints in India, okay. Which is now called Berger Paints, was part of the Hex Group. My father was chairman of British Paints India, okay. When he passed away, I became chairman of British Paints India. During my tenure as chairman of British Paints India, I learned something about the paint business. Right? Now.

RAJ SHAMANI: What did you learn about paint business?

VIJAY MALLYA: Go back in time, what I told you. When I was sent to America, then to England, I worked as a foreman in the Boyger Paints Jensen Nicholson paint factory here in this country. So I not only knew about making paint, but also how a paint business was run because I was chairman of Bodger Paints.

So when Hex Group decided to sell their global budget paints, headquartered in England, operating in the Caribbean, operating in Africa, in Asia, true multinational company, I went to them and put together a loan package with those days, the Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation and bought it because I had this aspiration of creating India’s first multinational. That was back, yeah, they said 1988. Okay? So from being Indian centric business, I was operating in 25 countries worldwide flying the Indian flag.

RAJ SHAMANI: So your objective is only that I want to take India or Indian business to the world?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, absolutely not. I, I, I was, was very focused on making a hefty profit out of it too. All right? Which I successfully did. So I bought it in a leveraged buyout. And after that, I did IPOs. I did IPOs in Jamaica. I did IPOs on the Kenyan Stock Exchange. I did an IPO on the Singapore Stock Exchange and diluted our shareholding to 51%, but used the proceeds of the IPO to pay down the debt. Right.

And then finally in 1996, I sold the entire business that was then listed on the Singapore Stock Exchange and I made a fat profit. And I still remember, and I have no hesitation in saying this, that I went to my mum and I said, you see this piece of paper? This is what I earned. This is not inherited. I made it myself. So when I spend it, don’t complain. And that’s on a lighter vein.

But yeah, I mean, I, I, I, that was when as a non resident Indian I made my first serious piece of money out of entirely my own initiative in a pence environment. But hey, that’s what it’s all about. I mean, I got experience of doing IPOs in three different countries across the globe. That was invaluable experience.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you regret selling it? Because today Burger is I think 60, 70,000 crore big business.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s only one Berger in India. I own the global Berger all over the world, including India. I sold Berger Paints in India through a Dhingras. Do you regret selling great job with it? No, no. God bless them, they did a super job with it.

RAJ SHAMANI: But if it was doing so good, why did you sell it then?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, it was bought by the Malaysians. Okay. And they came with an offer I couldn’t refuse. They offered me some two and a half times the quoted chapas.

Family Relationships and Values

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, you mentioned that. You said you told your mother that I made this profit now don’t complain when I spend it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me about relation. Tell me your relationship with your mother.

VIJAY MALLYA: My mom brought me up. I used to live with her in Calcutta alone since 64, 65. And yeah, so she’s stood by me like a rock. She’s a very well educated lady. And yeah, I mean she’s been living in England now for 30 plus years. But yeah, I mean, you know, I mean I wanted to buy a yacht, I wanted to buy a plane and stuff like that. And so I wanted to make sure I set the record straight. I told my mom I earned this money. So if I spend it buying a yacht and spend it buying a plane, don’t complain.

RAJ SHAMANI: Did she complain? But why did you say that then?

VIJAY MALLYA: She enjoyed the yacht. What?

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, why did you say this to her then? Was she like frugal? She would ask you not to spend?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, it isn’t that. I mean, it’s natural for a parent. You know, if you see something that’s quite extraordinary, quite expensive, lavish, call it what you may, it’s normal parental reaction to ask the child, you know, why are you spending money or whatever. I mean, I’m just telling you, I made a joke out of it. But I was very proud that. That was money I earned, you know. It wasn’t money I inherited.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me one lesson you learned from your mom.

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh, I’ve learned many lessons from my mom. Don’t waste time in life arguing. It’s not worth it. Use your time productively. Think positively. Don’t keep arguing with people unless it’s a matter that’s going to get you somewhere. And which argument gets you anywhere?

RAJ SHAMANI: And what did you learn from your father? Give me one lesson. Something that you can’t forget.

VIJAY MALLYA: Hard work and an ability to read a balance sheet. Company balance sheet.

RAJ SHAMANI: He was really good at it, right? That’s what it’s written about him.

VIJAY MALLYA: Super.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you miss your dad?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t think I’d be as good. But I think whatever I learned from him was good enough for me to produce some excellent robust balance sheets in all the companies I ran.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you miss him?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, who doesn’t miss a dad? But, you know, it’s now what, 1983 to 2025 is a long time.

RAJ SHAMANI: What do you miss about him?

VIJAY MALLYA: You can’t keep missing somebody for 40 years. Life is too short for that.

RAJ SHAMANI: But do you think he would have been proud of you today?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I would hope so. Certainly not proud of me being called Chore or Agora. And certainly nobody would be proud of that. Certainly no parent. I know my mother gets very agitated. Even today. She’s 98 years old, and every time she sees the Indian media, she’s reduced to tears. Obviously, it hurts her more. I’m probably more thick skinned, more robust, and I just ignore it. But, you know, at that age, my mother doesn’t. And it’s very unfair what has been written, what has been alleged, because it’s complete nonsense.

The Birth of Kingfisher Airlines

RAJ SHAMANI: Let’s walk through the case. Let’s start from the point of what happened in Kingfisher Airlines. When did you decide that you want to start a Kingfisher Airlines?

VIJAY MALLYA: The 2002. 2003.

RAJ SHAMANI: And you just. Okay, so here’s a story. Hear me out. What I have gathered from reading about it is one day out of blue, you go to an agm or like just a board meeting, I think not agm. It was a board meeting where you announced that on my son’s birthday we are going to launch Kingfisher Airlines. Your CFO was not happy about it, but you still pursued and you want to do it. This was the. This is what is reported. What was the reality? Tell me the truth.

VIJAY MALLYA: The truth is the Damania brothers from Bombay who previously had Damani Airlines came and made A presentation to my cfo, Ravi Narangari, saying, the time is ripe to start an airline now. Okay. Ravi Narangari had discussions with them, came to me and said, would you like to look at this proposal? I said yes. We looked at it and finally we decided, yes, it is opportune. So let’s go for it.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s how the idea of an airline was born.

RAJ SHAMANI: And then you didn’t take anyone in confidence, you would just, hey, out of nowhere, I think we are in alcohol business now. We want an airline business.

VIJAY MALLYA: There’s nothing wrong in diversification. The UB Group has had a history, even during my father’s time, of operating food processing companies, petrochemical companies, electromechanical companies. So I mean, diversity was nothing new to us.

RAJ SHAMANI: So your initial plan to launch an airline was 7 May 2005, but you ended up launching on 9 May 2005. Right.

VIJAY MALLYA: And then this whole business of launch on son’s birthday as a birthday gift and all is complete baloney. All right? I think my son would be embarrassed and I would be equally embarrassed to say I’m starting an airline. All right.

RAJ SHAMANI: As an 18th birthday gift.

VIJAY MALLYA: Complete nonsense. All right? But okay, once again, media narratives are best ignored. A full blown professional management team was in position before the airline even started, before the first plane arrived. Okay. The CEO and the director of engineering were both hired from the U.S. okay. And the airline was launched. A lot of narrative about Kingfisher Airlines, a lot of narrative about mismanagement, a lot of narrative about the Deccan acquisition, all sorts of things.

The Vision Behind Kingfisher Airlines

RAJ SHAMANI: Let’s pick one by one. What was the first vision of Kingfisher Airlines when you were starting in 2005.

VIJAY MALLYA: To produce the best flying experience that India had ever seen.

RAJ SHAMANI: Make it a premium experience.

VIJAY MALLYA: Totally a premium experience. Number one, in terms of passenger comfort, safety. Number two, to connect places in India that had never ever been connected before. And that it was a really serious part of the growing infrastructural needs of the country.

RAJ SHAMANI: But I was watching one documentary about you and I think the person who you got to lead was Alex.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, Wilcox.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. So Alex said that you convinced him that you want to build a low cost career, but it was not like that. And in your own words, if you’re giving a vision that I want to build a premium experience, why did you get a CEO or like a president? I don’t know what was his position, but somebody to lead by telling him that you want to build a low cost carrier.

VIJAY MALLYA: That is your own Misinformation.

RAJ SHAMANI: He said it somewhere. I’m not, I’m just quoting him.

VIJAY MALLYA: Fair enough. I haven’t seen it, but I’ll respond. Kingfisher Airlines started off as a single class airline, low cost, but with a difference. It had in flight, entertainment and it offered meals. Everything else that’s applicable to a low cost airline was applied to Kingfisher as well. Commonality of fleet, commonality of training, the whole lot. I mean, there’s a whole set of rules. What is a low cost carrier? What is a full service carrier? Right. And that even descends down to intricacies such as the type of reservation system, flight planning system you use and all the rest of it.

So Kingfisher had all the low cost attributes. Okay. The only product plus was in flight, entertainment for the first time ever in India, and good food. So to me, the logic from my marketing experience was Indians love entertainment, therefore the inflight entertainment system. And Indians love food. So good food. Right. And then of course, okay, service quality, whether, whether you’re a low cost or full service. I mean, you’d like a nice, well trained, polite set of crew and we spend a lot of time and energy on that.

Then when we saw the market evolve, we added Kingfisher first, which is basically the business class. Why? Because the market demanded that on certain routes. Right. There’s certain people who would not fly Kingfisher because we didn’t have a front cabin or a business class, who would always fly jet. Okay. Because Jet had a two class, a business class and economy class. Right. And now just to prove my point, Indigo is often referred to as the most successful low cost carrier in the world and certainly the largest low cost carrier in India. What’s Indigo doing now? Installing a business class. Right. Yeah. So it’s not such a dumb idea. Right?

The Success and Challenges of Kingfisher Airlines

RAJ SHAMANI: So it worked in your favor initially.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes.

RAJ SHAMANI: So, but. And by 2008, you were the biggest airline in the country, having a 27% market share.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes, right.

Service Excellence and Cabin Crew Training

RAJ SHAMANI: What went wrong if things were right, your marketing was working, you had everything right. In fact, before even you answer that I want to go to, which is often talked about, is your training of cabin crew. What was the idea behind that? You selected certain people based on how they look or how they’re going to be presented.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, but you know, I mean, at the end of the day you have, you have very good looking ladies who sadly can’t speak very well. Now, what is one of the key attributes of a cabin crew? Communication. I mean, you may look good, but if you can’t communicate with the passenger that doesn’t serve the purpose.

The kind of service standards that I set for the airline and my service standards were unique. They included in business class the Erosys cleaning, the reading glasses and spectacles of our customers. We call them guests. Right. So there were little things that made a vast difference in the customer experience.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me two more things. Two, three more things.

VIJAY MALLYA: This is one.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Secondly, the food was second to none. Right. With the quality of the seats themselves, the recline and all the rest of it, what they call the seat pitch, just second to none. So there were so many little attributes we called customers, not passengers with guests. Many airlines have copied us since.

But there were the little, little things that made a difference. I was very focused on the service delivery excellence of Kingfisher. You can go further because you don’t know this. You can’t ask me the question. So let me tell you.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: In the first one year, the airport manager at every single airport in India had to send me on my personal mobile and SMS with the flight number, the scheduled time of departure and the actual departure time. So every night before I went to bed, which was rather late, I used to look at my phone. Every single flight of Kingfisher of that day. I used to monitor personally the on time performance.

RAJ SHAMANI: You were so detailed, focused. You were so.

VIJAY MALLYA: Because the service industry in the airline industry requires focus, requires detailed focus.

The 2008 Financial Crisis Impact

RAJ SHAMANI: So agreed then. It worked in your favor till 2008. What happened then?

VIJAY MALLYA: Simple. You’ve ever heard of Lehman Brothers?

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: You ever heard of the global financial crisis? Right. Did it not impact India?

RAJ SHAMANI: Of course it did. The whole aviation sector was.

VIJAY MALLYA: Forget aviation. Every sector.

RAJ SHAMANI: Every sector was, yeah. Money stopped, it got dry.

VIJAY MALLYA: The value of the Indian rupee. So I went to Shri Pranab Mukherjee, then Finance Minister of India. Having grown up in Calcutta, I speak fairly decent Bengali. And I said, Pranabda, I’m a problem. Kingfisher Airlines get downsized, which means I have to downsize this airline. I have to cut the number of aircraft, I have to lay off employees. Right. Because I can’t afford to operate under these depressed economic circumstances.

He said, no, at this time, connectivity is important.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: The jobs and employment are important, particularly because, you know, typically in an airline they’re not blue collar workers. They’re not like workmen.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: The boys and girls who work in an airline can’t be classified as blue collar. And he said, I don’t want them to lose their jobs. So you continue, banks will support you. That is how it all started. I was told not to downsize Kingfisher at that time. And yes, the banks did support.

All right, now what happened then? Lot is. You tell me the narrative. I’ll tell you the truth. You tell me the narrative.

The Air Deccan Acquisition Strategy

RAJ SHAMANI: Then there was a consortium formed of 17 banks and the loan was given to you via SBI. Right. Was that the first or IDBI was first.

VIJAY MALLYA: See, this is where people are not aware. I acquired Air Deccan, which everybody says was a big mistake. Yeah, right.

RAJ SHAMANI: In 137 million dollars or something like that. Everybody says you overpaid for it.

VIJAY MALLYA: In the world of business, there’s something known as consolidation, industry consolidation. There is something known as eliminate the disruptor.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Air Deccan was famous for advertising and promoting one rupee tickets.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Clearly you could never ever sustain any airline business selling tickets for one rupee. Right. Okay. It was a bait. But that set certain price expectations in the mindset of the customers.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: And affected not only Deccan, which was losing money, but the industry as a whole of which Kingfisher was also a part. Right. So at that time we looked at it. Air Deccan was also Bangalore based. It had the same Airbus aircraft, it had the same train pilots as Kingfisher. So there was a lot of engineering compatibility plus scale and size.

With the merger of Kingfisher and Deccan, eliminate the disruptor and consolidate the industry and Kingfisher airlines. That was the logic of buying Deccan. Not this much touted logic of I was desperate to fly overseas. I needed to get past that five year hurdle. Complete nonsense.

Now why should I shout from the rooftops trying to clarify this part? If you talk to anybody about elimination of a disruptor and consolidation of industry, it’ll start making and commonality of equipment, it’ll start making business sense.

Addressing the Five-Year Rule Narrative

RAJ SHAMANI: But if your philosophy was to make a premium airline, why would you buy something which stands for low cost carrier, which stands for something cheap, which stands for one rupee ticket? Because the customers would be completely different. The only obvious sense which anybody could make it out from it was if you are going for a different vision, you are probably going out because the five year window which you wanted to bounce, Right?

VIJAY MALLYA: Probably.

RAJ SHAMANI: Of course, that was the logic to clarify, to tell people who don’t know about it. The logic that people talk about is if an Indian airline wanted to fly overseas, they should have operated in India for at least five years before getting the license to operate air. And you didn’t have that. And that’s why you bought Air Deccan, so that you could start flying overseas and you paid an absurd amount of price for it. That’s what people say.

VIJAY MALLYA: So who are the people that you’re quoting?

RAJ SHAMANI: Everybody. Like all the things that I’ve read. All the things. All the media.

VIJAY MALLYA: Like media, right? Yeah, like the legacy media.

RAJ SHAMANI: Right, the legacy media. The people who are responsible for giving us the information. I mean, that’s what as a citizen, that’s where I get my information from and at least from the ones who I really respect.

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t think anybody at UB Group was that dumb with a lack of business understanding to buy an airline, an operating airline, just to be able to fly overseas. I’m telling you, the logic was consolidation of the industry, given the commonality of equipment.

I referred a little earlier to the installation of a front cabin or business class which we called Kingfisher first, which Indigo are doing even now. There are certain routes in India that demand. Right. A front cabin where there are people who will only fly business class.

RAJ SHAMANI: Fair.

VIJAY MALLYA: But the bulk of India people want a single class product. Deccan fitted that bill fantastically. Right. We opened up more routes than had ever been opened before or available for air connectivity. That was one of the biggest contributions we made to the Indian aviation sector and economy. Right. Deccan also played a part in that.

So Kingfisher’s side failure subsequently had nothing to do with Deccan.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Nothing to do with how much we paid for Deccan. Right, Got it. Those were totally separate set of reasons. Right. But business reasons.

The Kingfisher Red Rebranding Decision

RAJ SHAMANI: Here’s a question on it. So I get the idea that you wanted to service more routes, you wanted to consolidate. That was a business decision. You saw that, hey, I want to build a premium airline, but there’s a bulk of India who cares about the price. And you wanted to contribute to make sure that. I want to make sure that India gets to fly anywhere and everywhere through the price point which Air Deccan provides. And if I could be the one to consolidate it and I could be the one to actually eliminate the disruptor, I should do it. Business decision, brilliant. Do you think then the wrong decision was to rebrand it to Kingfisher Red?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because you can’t start operating one Deccan and one Kingfisher. So we just called it Kingfisher, Right? I mean, rebranding is common in the world. Take Coca Cola. Right? There’s Coke, there’s Coke Zero, there’s Diet Coke, there’s all Coke. Right. So a multi brand strategy is no rocket science.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah, but then the philosophy of Air Deccan was low cost and in Kingfisher Red. So Kingfisher stood for premium. Kingfisher Red stood for low cost.

VIJAY MALLYA: It was differentiated Kingfisher first and Kingfisher Red. Okay, right. You tell me something. What’s the difference between Coke Zero and Diet Coke?

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me just two names. I don’t know.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, fine. What’s the philosophy behind it? You don’t know? So how can all these commentators be commenting on Kingfisher first and Kingfisher Red? You know, the trouble in India is that there are too many commentators who don’t understand the facts. And of course the media plays to the gallery and that’s how disinformation gets spread wide.

Service Standards in Low-Cost Operations

RAJ SHAMANI: And then you stated somewhere again, the commentators, I’m quoting that I want to, if I’ve put in a name Kingfisher on an airline, no matter even if it’s low cost, I want to provide all the services. You started providing all the services. You started providing catering. You started providing everything in a low cost carrier, didn’t you?

VIJAY MALLYA: I began by saying that Kingfisher started off with all the attributes of a low cost carrier, which is single class, standard fleet, etc. Etc. Etc. But I said the only differentiator was in flight entertainment and food. But just because I gave food didn’t make it a full service carrier. I mean, you want, shall I give you examples? Yeah, you go on any low cost carrier here in Europe. All right, do they starve you or do they feed you but you have.

RAJ SHAMANI: To pay for it?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, all of them.

RAJ SHAMANI: I don’t know, few of them. The ones I’ve flown.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay, so there are exceptions.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, but that was the business. Like that’s what everybody talks about, right?

VIJAY MALLYA: You know, that’s the problem. Lack of information and knowledge, and more importantly, no domain knowledge of the aviation industry leads to all sorts of speculation that makes no sense.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you tell us that. Does it make business sense to provide food and in flight entertainment in a low cost carrier where people don’t care about it?

VIJAY MALLYA: Wait, our belief was Indians love food and love entertainment.

RAJ SHAMANI: That is for Kingfisher first, but not for Kingfisher Red. Kingfisher Red stands for local.

VIJAY MALLYA: Why an in flight entertainment system doesn’t cost you money to operate every day.

RAJ SHAMANI: But still costs you a lot of money which eventually will bleed your balance sheet.

VIJAY MALLYA: Really, I’m asking you, not in our.

RAJ SHAMANI: Opinion, do you think that was the wrong decision?

VIJAY MALLYA: What?

RAJ SHAMANI: Just providing after acquiring Deccan, giving all the services of a full, full service carrier in a low cost carrier.

VIJAY MALLYA: The full service carrier part of it was very distinct from the so called low cost Carrier. At the end of the day, however, you may refer to these business models, it’s all about the price your customers are willing to pay and whether you can fill your plans. Simple. All models are academic and theoretical. That really are irrelevant.

RAJ SHAMANI: But your critiques say that you were competing against other low cost carriers.

VIJAY MALLYA: Like.

RAJ SHAMANI: Like at that time, was it? I think Indigo started at that time and Spice started at that time. I think Spice.

VIJAY MALLYA: Spice was there on and off. Yeah, but okay, more off than on.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you were competing with low cost carriers with their pricing, but you were providing something extra. And that’s why your business model was bleeding more money than them. And you expected that this will turn into loyal customers, but the moment you increase price, people would not fly your flights. Was it.

Government Policies and Aviation Challenges

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s what the critics say. They are all aviation experts. I have nothing to say.

RAJ SHAMANI: So where was the problem then? If this was not the problem, then what happened?

VIJAY MALLYA: The problem was the government. The problem was fairly and squarely the government. And I, you know, they’ve made a lot of political hay out of this. When I used to write to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, when I used to write to the civil aviation ministers, ministers of finance, the cost of crude, international crude went to $140 a barrel.

The price of aviation turbine fuel in India was directly related to the cost of international crude oil. So you can see that from an average of about $60 a barrel, crude oil went to $140 a barrel. With the resultant and equivalent increase in the price of aviation turbine fuel.

The state governments levied an ad valorem sales tax on aviation turbine fuel. So you can yourself now begin to imagine the financial impact on the airline operating where fuel costs are the single largest component of cost. So I pleaded, I said, look, please give aviation turbine fuel declared good status so that it attracts central sales tax and not this punitive ad valorem state sales tax, right? Because the states are making windfall profits anyway. That the government did not do.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Aviation is regarded as a capital intensive industry, right? It’s acknowledged as such worldwide, right? They would not permit foreign investment. It was sad that only six months after Kingfisher airline shut, right? That they permitted Etihad to invest in Jet. I had already reached agreement with the CEO of Etihad in Geneva for them to invest in Kingfisher, which government did not permit. So we could not capitalize the airline through a foreign investor either.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why didn’t they allow?

VIJAY MALLYA: They should ask the government, right? So my point is the economy, the circumstances, the government policy then existing all conspired to create a perfect storm through which Kingfisher could not survive. I mean, that’s a sad part of it.

If you talk about Kingfisher, the concept and UB Group’s diversification into aviation, I’ll answer it in one sentence. The two biggest orders for aircraft in the world today are Air India and Indigo, both Indian carriers. The fastest growing aviation market in the world today is India.

Now, if you yourself acknowledge that in 2008, Kingfisher was the largest airline with a 27% market share, had events not conspired against us, right, you can imagine where Kingfisher could potentially have been today. But sadly, not all businesses work out. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

The Birth of Royal Challengers Bangalore

RAJ SHAMANI: While this, like 2008 turmoil happened, and you had your own challenges with Kingfisher, but there were good things in your life which were happening as well, one of them being sports. So you bought IPL Team RCB, Royal Challengers Bangalore. How did that happen? When did this idea come to you? Were you approached? You approached? What was it? Tell me everything about it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I think I’ve already explained to you the concept behind building a personality for a brand, about communicating marketing ethos via sporting events, via music events, and various other forms that would be attractive to youngsters. I just acquired Seagram’s. And one of the biggest brands that I acquired was Royal Challenge Whiskey.

And I was thinking of ways and means of now taking Royal Challenge Whiskey to the next level, which required a lot of marketing, innovation, thinking. And at the time the IPL was conceived, I was actually sitting on the BCCI committee as a representative of the Karnataka State Cricket Association.

And I was very impressed with the pitch that Lalit Modi made to the BCCI committee about this league. And of course, he was working through, jumping through the hoops. BCCI was quite bureaucratic at that time. But nevertheless, he called me one day and said, okay, fine, we’re ready to go. Teams are going to be auctioned. Are you going to buy?

And I thought to myself, I said, wow, in a country where cricket is a religion, what better platform can I have to promote my brands then through an IPL franchise? And I got greedy. I wanted one for Kingfisher and one for Royal Challenge, my Whiskey brand, okay? He said, no, you cannot possibly have two. You can only have one.

Anyway, bidding time came, and I think I was pretty excited about having an IPL team to promote one of my brands. And so I bid for three franchises.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay?

VIJAY MALLYA: I lost Mumbai by a very small amount of money. But then that’s not surprising that Ambani’s got it. But anyway, I wound up being the highest bidder for three and I had to choose one. So I obviously chose Bangalore and it then was natural that it would be Royal Challengers Bangalore because the whiskey was Royal Challenge and that’s how RCB was born.

RAJ SHAMANI: But it was not a business. It was not for the love of cricket. It was more like a business decision that it will help my brands. Or was it both?

VIJAY MALLYA: This is it. The media narrative will be, well, vanity project. Vijay Mallya loves cricket. He wanted to buy his own team. Yeah, flamboyance, the usual narrative about me, but the sole purpose always was promotion of the Royal Challenge whiskey brand. So it was very much business driven and that’s why it was called Royal Challengers.

RAJ SHAMANI: But did it help? After that the whiskey sales went up massively.

VIJAY MALLYA: Massively. And of course, quite apart from it doing its job to promote the whiskey brand, the IPL franchise model itself as explained in great detail by Lalit and which is true now is that the revenues, the media revenues are so high the payment of the franchise fee over 10 years is over. So now there’s a significant net profit for every franchisee. It’s like a very profitable running independent business. So, so much for it being a vanity project.

RAJ SHAMANI: How much did you buy it for?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think $112 million is what I bid.

RAJ SHAMANI: And that time it would be like 6, 700 crores or more than.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, I think. But Lalit was clever. Everything was denominated in dollars. The bid price was I think 112 million which of course people balked at that time. But you know, in hindsight if you look at it and do the math, it was a top class investment. I mean look at what the teams are worth today. Yeah, I mean they’re worth a billion dollars.

Discovering Virat Kohli

RAJ SHAMANI: You know, one thing which was exciting in your pitch in your bid for RCB was Virat Kohli. Virat, Virat under 19. You bid for him and you, if I’m not wrong, you got it for like 20 lakh something.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why did you pick Virat at such a young age?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, you know, obviously there was the young cricketers and it was draw by lots, right? And finally I got lucky so I got to pick and I immediately went for Virat. You know, I mean I looked just, I think shortly before the actual selection process there they were playing the Under 19 World Cup and I was very impressed. So I picked him. And you know, it’s wonderful, 18 years later he’s still there.

RAJ SHAMANI: They were just his performance or were you able to see something?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, he was a young kid at that time when I got him. But you know, full of energy, great talent. You know, one of the greatest Indian cricketers ever.

RAJ SHAMANI: If you had a choice to pick two or three players from other teams for RCB today, who would you pick?

VIJAY MALLYA: If dreams could come true, Jasprit Bumrah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: If dreams could come true. Surya Kumar Yadav. Rishabh Pant. KL Rahul. If I had these four, I wouldn’t need anybody else and definitely win the trophy.

RAJ SHAMANI: And do you think this year even when you don’t have these four, you would?

VIJAY MALLYA: The RCB this year, the RCB lineup is pretty balanced. Top class batting lineup, a much improved bowling lineup. I haven’t seen Bhuvaneshwar Kumar play in RCB colors yet but you know, he’s a top class bowler. But as a unit I can say it’s a pretty balanced unit. And now it all depends on field performance.

RCB’s Marketing Strategy and Fan Engagement

RAJ SHAMANI: You know, this year the captain, Rajat, he’s from my city, he’s from my neighborhood. Like, he was literally like two houses away from my house. Rajat Patidar. So this year even though I’m not, I support Mumbai. But this year I’m still voting for RCB. And I’m like, okay, let Rajat win the trophy. Okay. But it, you know it occurs to me that RCB never winning the cup has actually worked in the RCB favor. Do you think so?

VIJAY MALLYA: In what way?

RAJ SHAMANI: In cult following. No, even though you guys have like the RCB has never won.

VIJAY MALLYA: You see that is because the day RCB was conceived, we have had a comprehensive program of fan engagement.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: We’ve had events. I mean the IPL window is two months. We have had activation programs stretching over all 12 months. Keep the RCB fans engaged. So it is once again a clear cut marketing strategy and fan engagement strategy which has worked. That’s why we have such extreme loyalty that win or lose, the chant of RCB is always there.

RAJ SHAMANI: Give me an example of the marketing trick here.

VIJAY MALLYA: So many. I mean you, you watch the activations of RCB longevity, right? You remember. Ooh la la la.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Remember?

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: When was this conceived? You don’t know? Let me tell you. 1996 World Cup of Cricket. The Kingfisher West Indies Cricket team. Now back in 1996, I put the Kingfisher logo on the West Indies, not Indian cricket team. Okay? And because why? The personalities of the West Indian cricketers. Fun, dancing, music, their entire swagger that suited the Kingfisher brand. That was when the jingle was conceived, which lives on till today in 2025.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. Wow. It was conceived before I was born and I still remember it. So you see, you have been king of marketing. You have done so many marketing gigs. Right. Was the Formula One also a marketing stint for Kingfisher?

Force India Formula One Team

VIJAY MALLYA: See, I told you earlier that I’ve always had racing in my blood. I’ve always loved racing cars. I was then involved with motorsports clubs in India. I was chairman of the Federation of Motorsports Clubs of India for many years. And the job of the federation was basically to promote motorsports in India.

Now, for anybody who is into motor racing, the absolute pinnacle of motorsport in the world is Formula One, right? Now, what is Formula One? All around, the image of Formula One, big box glamour, seriously competitive racing divided by hundredths of a second, full of excitement, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All the attributes I have employed in different ways for my brands.

And plus being a motor racing enthusiast, right, it was a dream to have a team on the F1 grid. So when the opportunity presented itself, I did it, right? I did it now. I named it Force India. I could have easily named it Mallya Formula One, like Williams Formula One, for instance, right?

RAJ SHAMANI: Why did you keep Force India?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because I wanted the Indian flag to be on the grid. I wanted the world to know that the team with roots in India of all countries, was at the pinnacle of motorsport. And that is why I called it Force India. And I had the tricolor on the car.

Of course, I also used the platform to advertise my brand. Yeah, okay. Including Royal Challenge, Whiskey White and Mackay, which we owned at that time, Kingfisher, then the airline. So the car, livery of the car and all the merchandise around Formula One had a lot of our brands on it for promotional purposes, but the core reason was to put an Indian Formula One team on the grid.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you invested quite a money, quite a lot of money on it, right?

VIJAY MALLYA: Sure, I did. I mean, Formula One’s not cheap.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think that was bad decision?

VIJAY MALLYA: No. In hindsight, I wouldn’t do anything different.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why not? Because you had to sell it, right? And I think a lot of accusations are for the same brand.

VIJAY MALLYA: Whose accusations about what?

RAJ SHAMANI: That you use Kingfisher money for Formula One and nobody talks about it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Nobody talks about that.

RAJ SHAMANI: Have you spoken about it before? And still people don’t.

VIJAY MALLYA: Never. Why should I? As I told you, I don’t want to waste my time correcting the barrage of narratives coming from legacy media.

RAJ SHAMANI: Then you sold Force India.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes. Force India became Racing Point.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yes. You sold it to Lawrence Stroll.

VIJAY MALLYA: Right. Aston Martin Formula One.

The Formula One Exit and Marketing Legacy

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. Why did you sell it to Lawrence?

VIJAY MALLYA: I had to at that time because of my worldwide freezing orders and the troubles that Sahara was going through and so on and so forth. So, you know, at the end of the day, I would have definitely kept it, but it was not to be. So, fine, you move on in life. But I had 10 years of the Indian flag on the Formula One grid.

The Kingfisher Calendar Story

RAJ SHAMANI: Talking about another marketing stint because there was cricket, there was Formula one, there was Kingfisher calendar. It was so highly talked about. What was the story behind Kingfisher calendar?

VIJAY MALLYA: Atul Kasbekar  came to me and said, fine, let’s you know, there’s a Pirelli calendar. Why can’t we create a similar property for Kingfisher? Absolutely. And so we said, fine, we’ll have the Kingfisher swimsuit calendar. We couldn’t go sort of, kind of all the way that P might have been able to, given the social considerations in India and so on and so forth.

But I think we produced a product that everybody demanded. I mean, even today I get SMS’s from people. Where’s my calendar? So it was highly sought after. And once again we had events around it. We had the National Hunt for the Kingfisher Girl that was national, so we broad based it and we chose models through a national hunt. And then of course we’d have events around the calendar, shooting the calendar and then launching the calendar. All of which was consistent with the brand positioning and marketing strategy of Kingfisher.

RAJ SHAMANI: And why do you think that girls who were, who became or who landed on the calendar, their career skyrocketed?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, because we chose the right girls. I mean, whether it was Deepika Padukone, whether it was Katrina Kaif, I mean we had all the heroines and the stars on the calendar in their.

RAJ SHAMANI: Younger days, but they were not stars back then. They became.

VIJAY MALLYA: We picked. Well, we picked the right talent.

RAJ SHAMANI: Did you also help them after the calendar or just the engagement was only.

VIJAY MALLYA: Help with the calendar and that was it. I did it because it was a fantastic marketing tool. Didn’t bring anything to me personally, but it did wonders for the brand. The same thing with the McDowell marketing campaigns. Right, okay.

Talking about fast cars, I’ve always been passionate about cars, right? And I have owned good cars, but not a fleet of them. In India. I had a couple of Mercedes cars, one Rolls Royce and one Maybach. That was it. That is all I possessed.

The Vintage Car Collection

RAJ SHAMANI: But you have one of the largest car collections of vintage cars and stuff.

VIJAY MALLYA: We’re talking about talking about vintage cars which is a totally different ball game because of our nationwide presence on the ground. I told my people look for vintage cars because they were hugely neglected. Many, many cars went to India in the 20s and 30s. The Maharajas in India were probably the biggest customers for famous cars such as Rolls Royce. But these cars were in a state of ruin.

Given my inherent interest in cars I said I want to collect these and restore them. Which I did. I mean in those days I have bought a rolls Royce for 50,000 rupees with a tree growing through it in somebody’s backyard deep in Telangana. I have bought cars that have been rusted, parts missing, etc, etc, etc, all of which I lovingly restored over a period of time. That is my passion for cars. And those cars still exist. Of course you can’t export them because that’s a government of India policy. So they are in India.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me about the top three cars which you absolutely loved out of your collection from the vintage cars back then which you owned maybe in England or.

VIJAY MALLYA: In India or anywhere in India. I had I think a 1931 PS arrow which is a fantastic American car and which I took to Singapore. I entered Singapore to Malaysia rally and won it and very proudly flew back on an Air India flight with a big trophy in my hand. That was one of my favorite cars.

I have Rolls Royce Silver Ghost that was supposedly owned by the Nizam of Hyderabad with a very unique body on it. That’s a special car. I have I think a 1903 Darak which looks more like a horse drawn garage. It’s French with a single cylinder engine. Still runs. So yeah, these were some of the unique ones which were personal favorites, let’s put it that way.

Expensive Purchases and Properties

RAJ SHAMANI: What’s the most ridiculously expensive thing you’ve bought in your life?

VIJAY MALLYA: It depends what I mean. You’re talking about a car, you’re talking about painting, you’re talking about property.

RAJ SHAMANI: Give me example of one each.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I mean look, I have a family trust set up by my father that you know, has acquired various properties in different parts of the world. The media said I had over 20 properties, probably one in each country I went to which is once again hugely erroneous exaggeration.

Yeah, sure. I have properties in England, properties in America where my kids live. I had a lovely property in France which you rightly pointed out owned through Gizmo, which is a holding company. Yeah. And then when I had the big Brewery business in South Africa. We had a home in Cape Town, which was sold when the business was sold because I had no reason to keep going there. That’s about it.

RAJ SHAMANI: And you talk about one of your houses, which was very spoken about, actually. Two of them.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: One is that big bungalow which is above, which is in India at the Kingfisher Tower, Bangalore.

VIJAY MALLYA: It started off as a joke.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, what story?

VIJAY MALLYA: Brewery house, which is. The bungalow, was on that piece of land for over 100 years. That’s where I grew up, in that bungalow. That’s where my father lived. And so when these developers came and asked me that that land should be developed and that it would be very beneficial for the company and that there was a huge profit potential, I said, you know, I should put the company first and unlock the value and the potential rather than be selfish and say, no, I’m not moving.

So in a joking way, I said to Irfan Razack of Prestige, very dear friend of mine, top man, I said, irfan bhai, if you lift this building and put it on top of the tower you want to build, I’ll agree. He said, okay, that’s what we’ll deliver. That’s what they did.

RAJ SHAMANI: Wow. What is there in. Inside the house? Always wonder every time I go to Bangalore.

VIJAY MALLYA: Finished. It’s unfinished because it’s embroiled in this UBHL liquidation controversy right now. But, you know, given that the banks are settled and I think UBHL should come out of liquidation and be restored to its shareholders, which is what I’m working on now.

The Showman vs Businessman Debate

RAJ SHAMANI: Was this also a reason why. Because you marketed so well and you marketed at the place or with the tools, which were very, very public in nature, very loud in nature. There was a line which I read in newspaper which said, you were a show. You are a showman, and your father was a businessman. Is that. Is that why people misunderstand you? Because of the nature of.

VIJAY MALLYA: Your father was a businessman? And I really am not concerned about being referred to as a showman because the showman created the world’s largest alcoholic beverage company, which my father, as a businessman, would have loved to see.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think your father, if he was here with you, things would have been different for you? You would not land in this.

VIJAY MALLYA: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean, if you see what I’ve been through, it’s illogical. It is a sustained campaign and a sustained attack on the government’s favorite poster boy right now. Whether my dad was around a lot could not change anything. What has been attempted and what has been done till now. The government officially recognizing and admitting that 14,100 crores has been recovered.

The Finance Minister Meeting and Bank Support

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, let’s go to point where when we were talking about earlier about the Kingfisher turmoil, you said you went to the FM back then, which was Pranav Mukherjee.

VIJAY MALLYA: Sir.

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened after that meeting? He said that banks will support you. Is that the reason why a government bank supported you?

VIJAY MALLYA: It was not one government bank. It was a group of about 15 or 16 government banks. Kingfisher Airlines never borrowed any money from State bank of India. Just to set the record straight, okay. State bank of India was a lender to Deccan. When Kingfisher and Dean merged, State bank of India became a lender to Kingfisher Alliance. But it started with Deccan.

So like that there were a group of banks from whom Kingfisher had borrowed money. A group of banks from whom Dean had borrowed money. And then they got combined into one entity when Deccan and Kingfisher merged, right?

Yes. There were times when the sort of support from the Finance Minister at that time meant that, you know, when I presented to various banks including State bank, that, you know, the airline needed money, they would recognize our financial needs, appraise them correctly through State bank of India capital markets and then sanction loans. Even though the credit worthiness of Kingfisher Airlines may have been short of norms, to that extent, I’m grateful. Yes.

But then, you know, I did my bit as well. I put in 3000 crores of UB Group’s money into Kingfisher allies. He’s talking to me about allegations of siphoning. You’re talking to me about allegations of misusing Kingfisher Airline funds from my lifestyle for Formula 1. Nobody ever talks about the 3000 crores I infused in cash into Kingfisher Airlines to keep it afloat.

My good friend and you know, probably the most successful lady entrepreneur I’ve known. She’s like a sister to me. Kiran Mazumdar has often said publicly that Vijay put everything on the line for Kingfisher. I did. But that’s not appreciated. That is not appreciated. That’s sad. But let the narrative be what it is.

Personal Guarantees and Political Rhetoric

RAJ SHAMANI: See, you put everything you had into reviving Kingfisher Airlines because you believed in the vision. Right? But at the time when you asked, loaned, the company was not doing that great.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: Right. But you still got loan from the consortium of 17 banks.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct?

RAJ SHAMANI: The reason was they believed in your vision or the reason that they were influenced by the government to give you the loan.

VIJAY MALLYA: They believed in the Vision. They did their own appraisals. And please never forget, I gave my personal guarantee. And United Breweries Holdings Ltd. Also gave its personal guarantee. If anybody had. Okay, bad intentions. If anybody had intentions to divert money, siphon money, steal money, would anybody put themselves on a line with a personal guarantee? Think about it.

So all this narrative of chore, chore kabi apna personal guarantee. That is why I say in the last nine years I haven’t bothered about changing this narrative because it is what it is. It’s written by the Indian media.

Of course prompted by the government who have had their own press conferences etc. I mean Sambit Patra, the BJP spokesman called a press conference and bandied around in front of the Indian media. Letters that I had written to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh trying to establish a nexus right between me and the Prime Minister and alleging some sort of wrongdoing by the then Congress Prime Minister. I mean one could see through the political rhetoric straight away. Why wouldn’t any Indian citizen write to the Prime Minister for help?

RAJ SHAMANI: Fair.

VIJAY MALLYA: Because I never asked for money. I asked only for policy changes.

Loan Collaterals and Asset Recovery

RAJ SHAMANI: Let’s go to the series of events after this. What happened? So I’m quoting just pure research.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay, Quoting whom?

RAJ SHAMANI: Quoting pure research of what’s out there on all the newspapers. So you got a loan from banks and usually the normal nature of providing such big loans is people take. People give you this kind of loan against collateral and in this case bank took brand name of King Vishal as collateral and gave you the loan.

VIJAY MALLYA: One of the collateral.

RAJ SHAMANI: One of the collateral. What were the other collaterals?

VIJAY MALLYA: Several other stocks, shares, property.

RAJ SHAMANI: So stocks and shares. Property and stock and shares which is again quoted at that time were at the price of 3,839. But banks got it at 68, 69.

VIJAY MALLYA: You’re talking about Kingfisher Airline shares.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: What about all the other shares of UBL and usl? Nobody talks about that.

RAJ SHAMANI: But they.

VIJAY MALLYA: Where do you think they got this 14,000 crores from?

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m talking about back then like one.

VIJAY MALLYA: Minute they have sold assets and realized 14,100 crores.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

The Share Valuation Controversy

VIJAY MALLYA: A large part of which were my shares. So you have only focused on brand value. You’ve forgotten about the shares suggested. Wait a minute, I never suggested that the brand value would generate 14,000 crores. My shares that were pledged did. So there’s your answer to all this narrative.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you’re saying that.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not saying it’s fact.

RAJ SHAMANI: No. So the facts are, which you are quoting is they took shares of Kingfisher Airlines at the double price. Because they were also getting shares of UB. That’s why there was some kind of negotiation which was played on.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no. It is a multiple basket of securities.

RAJ SHAMANI: But still why would a bank twice the share price?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, nobody dreams up a share value. Okay. There were professional merchant bankers including State Bank of India Capital markets involved. They arrived at a share value. The part of the loan package was that Kingfisher’s shares in the airline itself needed to be pledged to the banks. But that was all. Not the only pledge. It was part of a basket.

But then the media chose to focus only on that. So I would like to ask the legacy media where did the 14,000 crores come from? But you made such a hullabaloo about share price of Kingfisher Airlines. Now you see. Now do you see how people pick and choose to discredit you? Isn’t it pretty evident?

Bank Lending Decisions

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. So then this happened again. A business decision by banks. They did everything. There was no influence involved. It was pure play. Business decision by a bank. Between you and the banks.

VIJAY MALLYA: You should ask them this question. You lent the money. On what basis do you lend the money? They should answer the question. I’m the receiver. First of all let me clarify here. When you keep saying you borrowed. I never borrowed one. Naya Paisa Vijay Mallya has never borrowed a single rupee from anybody ever. It was Kingfisher Airlines, the running company that borrowed. I was a guarantor. Please. There’s a big difference.

The Cash Flow Crisis

RAJ SHAMANI: And then the money came in. But you still. Kingfisher Airlines was still bleeding, whatever the case may be.

VIJAY MALLYA: I also put 3000 crores.

RAJ SHAMANI: You put in 3000 crores. You put in everything. And you tried to revive it. And then one series of event happened where there was a non payment of the oil bills. And that’s why the oil companies started asking you for advance money. And that shaked you a little bit more.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. The working capital cycle got disrupted. Natural.

RAJ SHAMANI: Then there was another series of event that Kingfisher Airlines was not able to pay. The airport fees, the landing charges.

VIJAY MALLYA: Listen, when a company goes through a cash flow issue it affects everybody. Yeah. You cannot isolate one particular creditor or vendor.

RAJ SHAMANI: No.

VIJAY MALLYA: So I’m coming to the cash shortage. Okay. It’s across the board.

RAJ SHAMANI: So across the board. Then there were catering companies which were affected. There was no food.

VIJAY MALLYA: Everybody after.

RAJ SHAMANI: One by one, one by one. There was non payment of certain things. Cash flow issue. Did you at any point did you think that this not going to work? You were still Pushing. You were still trying to push.

VIJAY MALLYA: I was pushing in the hope that the foreign investment that I had already negotiated was going to fructify. Which I had already agreed. Right. With James Hogan. But the permission never came. It was sad and I guess my misfortune that six months after Kingfisher collapsed in October 2012, that the same Etihad was granted permission to invest in Jet Airways.

The Employee Salary Crisis

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. Then another thing happened. Okay. So you were expecting all of this would happen. You asked your people, your staff, your employees to wait, that the money will come in.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: But they were not paid. The staff was not paid.

VIJAY MALLYA: Sadly, no.

RAJ SHAMANI: Right. But there’s again a statement that your international employees were getting paid. Indian employees were not. And the reason is that because internationally you would have held accountable. In India you could get away with anything. Was that the reason?

VIJAY MALLYA: I didn’t know that.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why were you paying international employees and not here?

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s very simple. The money was available through ticket collections in England. Because money was available, staff salaries were paid in India. The High Court of Karnataka had frozen over 260 crores worth of cash. Okay.

Now I’d like to focus on this non payment of salaries. There has been a hell of a lot spoken about it. Right. Which has pained me no end. It has seriously pained me in my track record as chairman of UB Group. I would ask anyone to check on how I cared for my employees. I was proud of the care that I gave to my employees. Why would it be different for Kingfisher employees?

The company in India had no money. There was UB’s money of 260 crores in the bank. With the. Sorry. With the bank under the control of the government of Karnataka. We applied officially and formally to the High Court. Please release the salary to pay the salaries. Court said no.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why?

VIJAY MALLYA: The same banks objected. The same public sector banks objected.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why?

VIJAY MALLYA: Why? Because they wanted that money belongs to them. Because the company had defaulted in payments. But as far as I was concerned, I asked the court please release those monies to pay the employee salaries. The banks objected, the courts refused.

Personal Salary Allegations

RAJ SHAMANI: But you personally took salary from Kingfisher Airlines. 33 crores a year.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no, no. I took salary of 33 crores a year. I wish.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why do they talk about it?

VIJAY MALLYA: Who talks? Showed me the balance sheet where it’s written. Can you show me?

RAJ SHAMANI: Not the balance sheet but the media talks about it. I can show you an article.

VIJAY MALLYA: Ask the media where’s the balance sheet.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you never took salary?

VIJAY MALLYA: I never took 33 crores salary.

RAJ SHAMANI: Or did you take any salary when other people were not getting paid?

VIJAY MALLYA: Obviously not. I mean, you really think I’d pay myself to the exclusion of other less well to do employees?

RAJ SHAMANI: That’s what the world thinks.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s unfortunate view of the world about me, which is sadly completely false.

RAJ SHAMANI: But then they all were on the road striking against you. If you would have spoken to them in a nicer way, probably, or, I.

VIJAY MALLYA: Don’t know, spoken to them, tried to explain to them. But at the end of the day, they did what they thought was best. They were under stress. I respect that. I’m not blaming anybody. Okay, A couple of people have said some nasty things, which is fine. If they are under pressure and their livelihood was under pressure, I fully understand that and I take it in my stride. But the fact, any suggestion that I willfully did not pay or that I ignored them and enriched myself in the process is completely false.

The Tragic Incident

RAJ SHAMANI: While all of this was happening, something really tragic happened. One of your employees wife committed a suicide because they were not able to pay themselves. Were you aware of that?

VIJAY MALLYA: I became aware of that and upon investigation, that was the culmination of a long standing dispute. Marital dispute. It was convenient to blame it on Kingfisher Airlines and non payment of salaries. Once again, when people are under stress and under unpleasant circumstances, I don’t want to comment on it in an unsavory way. It would not be right on my part.

I mean, my sympathies are with the family that, you know, lost one of their kin. But I can tell you that we investigated the matter and okay, sadly the tragedy did happen. And yes, sadly, equally sadly, that family had not been paid their salary. If you’d like to blame it on me, fine. I’d take the blame. As I said, I’m not afraid of taking blame where blame is due. I can face up to reality and truth.

RAJ SHAMANI: Did you feel like you should have said sorry to employees because you were not able?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course I did. Yeah, but I didn’t copy the media. I wrote a letter of condolence, but I didn’t copy the media.

Personal Lifestyle Criticism

RAJ SHAMANI: You know, here was, here’s what pissed people off that in your private life you were enjoying. You were buying the Tipu Sultan sword. You were buying cars in the UK.

VIJAY MALLYA: The value of a Tipu Sultan Sword would not have paid salaries. The two Mercedes Benz cars, the figment of people’s imagination would not have paid the salaries. And if your suggestion is that I should have laid low in some artificial way, forget the employees, forget the shareholders of all the other businesses. United Spirits United Breweries, MCF, everybody. Really? That would have been very fair, isn’t it?

And behave whether behave in a manner where my only asset and liability in life was Kingfisher Airlines. I had nothing else. That’s the way I should have behaved, right? What about the salaries of the other employees of the other group companies? What about the shareholders of those companies? What about the future of those companies and the management of those companies? So sadly, if one company fails, is it your suggestion that the whole group must fail?

RAJ SHAMANI: No, definitely not.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay. Everybody loves to talk about the failure of Kingfisher Airlines. And of course, pin me the blame on me personally. Forget about everything else. It is Vijay Mallya’s failure, Vijay Mallya’s failure, Vijay Mallya ka chori, Vijay Mallya ka fraud. Everything is Vijay Mallya. Fine.

What about United Spirits Limited? United Breweries limited? From where it started to where I left off. And the wealth creation in the hands of shareholders and the wealth creation in the hands of employees. Probably amongst the highest in India in the corporate sector. Highest. All forgotten. Nobody even refers to it. Kingfisher Airlines, Mallya toko sale ku. That’s it. The narrative begins there, ends there.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think if you would have done things differently, probably this side of you would have been more celebrated than the side which has gotten?

VIJAY MALLYA: Once the media started beginning with one particular channel whose anchor is known. Right. to shout the house down. Right. What did I start by saying? Vijay Mallya, I want to see you eating jail food. Vijay Mallya, I want to see you in jail. Clothes etc, etc started from there. Everybody had to jump on the bandwagon.

Property Investment Allegations

RAJ SHAMANI: I think in the same time because we’re talking about events. Somebody mentioned that you took out 35 million euros and invested in buying properties in France.

VIJAY MALLYA: Rubbish.

RAJ SHAMANI: Some with some dummy company called I think Gizmo holding or something like that.

VIJAY MALLYA: Tell me, if I had siphoned Kingfisher Airlines’ money to such an extent as people suggest, how would the airline run? On the bank’s own admission, on the debt recovery Tribunal’s own admission, 4,999 crores was the debt. Right?

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Rest is all interest. The suggestions are that I have stolen or misused most of that or all of it. How would the airline fly? If all the money borrowed from the banks Vijay Mallya pocketed, how would the airline fly? See. So all these allegations and false narratives being painted by people. If you analyze them, they make no sense.

Government Support and Scrutiny

RAJ SHAMANI: What also is not making sense to me is when the government said that they’re going to support you In 2008, the FM said that they’ll provide the loan which they probably did with the banks. Later in 2011, the Union Minister of the same government object like he started or they started objecting that you were not paying even taxes. 150 crore was pending and they started putting you in the public eye.

VIJAY MALLYA: They were arrears. They were arrears. Nobody is disputing that. But compare my arrears with Air India’s arrears. Air India’s areas were probably 10 times that of Kingfisher Airlines. That was because of the stress of the aviation sector.

RAJ SHAMANI: And why did Air India didn’t get anything and you got everything. Every little, every little scrutiny happened with you. If Air India was in trouble more than you, which actually was their case.

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s a fact.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah, it’s a fact. They were in more, they were in a more daunting situation than yours. Like the airline.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, but all the focus was only Kingfisher.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why?

VIJAY MALLYA: You should ask those that. Why do you think turned on the spotlights?

RAJ SHAMANI: Why do you think it happened?

VIJAY MALLYA: Clearly combination of animosity, jealousy, whole bunch of factors. You know, once again unproductive things to think about. You know, in life. Think positive.

The 2012-2015 Period and Settlement Attempts

RAJ SHAMANI: Come on, it costed you a whole life in India. You must have thought about it hundreds of times.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I’m not. In any case, since 1988, I’ve been going to India for less than hundred and eighty days in a year. All my three children are American citizens. All have lived outside India, never in India. My mother has been in this country for over 30 years. What do I go back to? Of course I will get the most ceremonial welcome by the Indian media for sure. I will. My goodness, it’ll be headlines of every single newspaper.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, so 2012, the airline got suspended non payment of multiple things working capital, cash flow. Everything got really, really bad for you. And then the big bash happened. The birthday party, which is often talked about in 2015.

VIJAY MALLYA: Go ahead.

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened between 2012 and 2015 with this case?

VIJAY MALLYA: What happened?

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m asking you what happened during like did everybody forgot? What did everybody like they were not bothered about Kingfisher Airlines or what the cases were going on?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course everything was going on. Nothing stopped.

RAJ SHAMANI: Nothing stopped because people don’t talk about that often. What happened? Like what was going on?

VIJAY MALLYA: Nothing was going on. That’s when the willful defaulter and all that. You know what the willful defaulter is all about, right?

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me what is about Banks call.

VIJAY MALLYA: A willful defaulter of somebody who has the money but won’t pay.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s called a willful defaulter.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Right. I made four settlement offers to the.

RAJ SHAMANI: Banks between 2012 to 2015.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes. Which they refused to accept that nobody.

RAJ SHAMANI: Knows what was the settlement that you were offering?

VIJAY MALLYA: So many settlement offers including before the court. Right. So it was always the intention to settle. I flew through Hyderabad and met the chairperson of the State bank of India at their training academy in Hyderabad and offered a settlement. It was always my intention to settle. Never did I say I’m not going to pay.

RAJ SHAMANI: And why do you think they didn’t accept it?

VIJAY MALLYA: They wanted 14,100 crores. That’s why they didn’t accept it there.

RAJ SHAMANI: They didn’t want your 5000 crore because they were expecting it to go up. Like the sale of your assets would be much higher than whatever is that.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Had they accepted my offer, they would have got 5000 crores. Today they’ve got 14,100 crores.

RAJ SHAMANI: But is there any proof do you have where you offered them settlement and they didn’t accept?

VIJAY MALLYA: From 2020 records of the Supreme Court of India Proof. What better proof than the records of the Supreme Court of India? Public documents.

The Controversial 60th Birthday Party

RAJ SHAMANI: So let’s say you offered.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Nothing happened. Nobody, not even a needle moved. It just kept going on. It kept getting worse. And you knew this trouble was going on. And in 2015, apparently according to the media, this is where things went down. Where you had a grand birthday party, your 60th birthday party, 18th December 2015. Right.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened in that party?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think it was party, that normal party that I had. I’ve had so many of them over the years.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think you wouldn’t. You shouldn’t have done that party or made it so public.

VIJAY MALLYA: Why? Why?

RAJ SHAMANI: Because the whole narrative is against you, you spending. See, this is what a common person would think. If I was a kingfisher employee and I’ve not gotten paid for XYZ reason for let’s say economic factors, business model, whatever. X, Y, Z reason, I’m not getting paid. My livelihood is dependent on this. And then I see the promoter of my company spending millions of dollars or Enrique Iglesias to perform for his birthday party, I would get enraged. I want to as an employee at that point, if I’m not gotten, if I’ve not gotten paid, I don’t understand that there are 50 businesses that you built. I understand only one thing that the promoter of my company is enjoying on my expense.

VIJAY MALLYA: The I would agree with everything that you said except your last. At my expense. The promoter of.

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m talking a common person. That’s how I’m asking.

VIJAY MALLYA: The common person didn’t know that upon objection by the same banks, a Karnataka High court declined to. To agree to drawing readily available cash to pay the salaries. Right. Okay. I agree with you. The suffering employee would have also said the man has United Breweries, United Spirits is none of my business. Right. So I could have been a thorough hypocrite. I could have come here to London and I had my party and nobody would have even known. Right?

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Would that have solved the problem?

RAJ SHAMANI: No.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you didn’t do that. You did the public party in India.

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s not public. Sorry. It was by invitation. But of course, everything that I do is covered by this. And I paid for it myself. Kingfisher Airlines was in no position to pay. I paid for it myself. Maybe in hindsight now. Okay. And I’m. We’re talking about December 2015 against an airline that shut in 2012. If you’re talking about my birthday party in December 18, 2012, you probably have a more significant point. But three years later, in December 2015. Okay. A milestone 60th birthday. Right. Still being held against me with such venom. I don’t quite get it. But okay, maybe it was a mistake. I should have probably come here to London and had my party and nobody would have known. But once again, because I was transparent and lived my life pretty transparently as I always did, the media latched onto it and bashed me for it. Fine. So everything in the last 10 or 15 minutes, maybe more, that you are questioning me on, are Indian media generated comments and narratives, none of these effects.

Apologies and Responsibility

RAJ SHAMANI: But are you not apologetic about what happened?

VIJAY MALLYA: Apologetic? What do I apologize for?

RAJ SHAMANI: For only to the like. Only for the employees of that business. For no one else.

VIJAY MALLYA: After putting 3000 crores of my own money into the business, I need to apologize.

RAJ SHAMANI: You’ve been wronged. But so have your employees of Kingfisher. What would you say to them? Who lost their jobs? Who still hold angst against you? If you were directly just talking to them and not me, what would you tell them?

VIJAY MALLYA: I would say I’m deeply sorry for what happened to them. I would say I’m deeply sorry that some of them didn’t get paid their salaries. I have no excuses to offer. I take full responsibility. But for those who care to listen, there was money lying in deposit with the Karnataka High Court. I specifically applied to court to pay the salaries of King Shireline staff. The banks objected and the court refused the permission. There was really nothing I could do beyond that.

RAJ SHAMANI: And what would you tell those employees who are still questioning that, hey, we were in trouble. And you tried everything to get that money from the court, but it didn’t help. Then why did you go out and party like a king on your 60th birthday when we were suffering?

VIJAY MALLYA: We need to look at the timeline here. Kingfisher Airlines shut down in 2012. My 60th birthday was in December 2015. Right. There was nothing I could do in the interim to find money to pay the staff in particular, because any money that could have been infused, theoretically would have been taken by the banks because all the assets were frozen.

RAJ SHAMANI: Did your legal advice you not to pay?

VIJAY MALLYA: Absolutely not. I told my legal advisers to find every single avenue to pay, and they.

RAJ SHAMANI: And it didn’t work. They couldn’t find a way.

VIJAY MALLYA: But ultimately, because of the freezing, all the money was lying under the control of the court, so we couldn’t touch the money.

RAJ SHAMANI: And every penny that you would have infused just for their intention to pay your employees would have still gotten frozen.

VIJAY MALLYA: You see, the court order did not differentiate between employees and general corporate purposes. Any money in the account of the airline was frozen. Frozen by the banks, frozen by tax department, frozen by service tax. Everything was frozen. The chunk of available cash was with the court, and that was actually cash of ubhl, not Kingfisher Airlines. Cash of United Breweries Holdings Limited. One of the core guarantors, ubhl, said, we want to pay Kingfisher Airlines staff salaries. Please allow us. The banks objected, and the court did not give permission. That is fact. I would feel very sad if somebody said I had no intention to pay or that I ignored to make the efforts. I made every single effort I could.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you ever feel sorry that you couldn’t do anything to give money to the employees?

VIJAY MALLYA: Obviously. But are you suggesting that I’m not sorry for what happened to Kingfisher and the collateral damage that was caused to everybody?

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m asking you, are you?

VIJAY MALLYA: I said I was very sad about the fact that you were sad.

RAJ SHAMANI: But were you sorry about it?

VIJAY MALLYA: Sorry? I apologize publicly to everyone for the failure of Kingfisher Airlines till today. I’m willing to apologize. I did my very best. I tried very, very hard. I put in my money. Blood, sweat, and tears. It didn’t work. Sadly, it didn’t work. I’m very sorry. At the end of the day, frankly, it’s what I think of myself when I look at myself in the mirror in the morning. Have you done good or have you not done good? Are you a success or are you a failure?

RAJ SHAMANI: What is the answer?

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m a big failure. According to Indians. Fine. I’m a big failure. But when I look at myself in the mirror, I don’t see failure.

RAJ SHAMANI: But does it bother you who created.

VIJAY MALLYA: 1.75 lakh crore of market cap in their alcoholic business? Who created it?

RAJ SHAMANI: Even after creating such a behemoth, people think you’re a failed business owner.

VIJAY MALLYA: Fair enough.

RAJ SHAMANI: So let bother you.

VIJAY MALLYA: And who made Kingfisher Airlines so public? Who made it? Damani Airways started and failed. East West Airlines started and failed. Right. Jet Airways eventually failed. Right. Modiluf started and failed. Right. Paramount started and failed. You read about them? Only Kingfisher and Mallya. Is that not a targeted attack?

Media Narrative and Public Image

RAJ SHAMANI: Because here’s what got crafted after it.

VIJAY MALLYA: Who crafted it?

RAJ SHAMANI: I’ll tell you. I’ll come to that.

VIJAY MALLYA: Tell me then. So tell me. What about all these other aviation failures?

RAJ SHAMANI: See, nobody cares about them because nobody was as public as you.

VIJAY MALLYA: Ah. So now we’re talking that I pay the price for my own public image.

RAJ SHAMANI: And the fact that you left the country.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s. Which is another. Which is another.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. So I’ll come to the series of events of these. Both of them.

VIJAY MALLYA: No problem.

CBI Investigation

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. So 2015, December. This happened. Before that CBI started investigating you.

VIJAY MALLYA: And I appeared before the CBI four times.

RAJ SHAMANI: And CBI came concluded their case that they found you siphoning the money was.

VIJAY MALLYA: That the thing was completely false.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: There is no allegation of money siphoning by cbi.

RAJ SHAMANI: What did CBI conclude?

VIJAY MALLYA: Nothing. That I spent on a private jet. Which was Kingfisher Airlines own assets.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: That I misrepresented to IDBI while taking the loan.

RAJ SHAMANI: What did you misrepresent?

VIJAY MALLYA: That I misrepresented. You asked me a question about brand valuation. Right. So one of them. One of the allegations, brand valuation.

RAJ SHAMANI: Was it also bizarre? Like idbis gave you loan in just 2 days and on Sunday you got the money transferred in your bank.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. But then that was a short term loan. Okay. They got the money back and then they participated in the consortium lending.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. So. But there is no allegation of siphoning money. None. Zero.

The Private Jet Controversy

RAJ SHAMANI: There was misrepresentation and using that money or using the Kingfisher loan proceedings to buy a private jet.

VIJAY MALLYA: Not private jet was owned by Kingfisher Airlines. The Kingfisher Airlines own asset. They said I misused it. I misused it for personal trips.

RAJ SHAMANI: Did you?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think if you see the line of private jets starting from Mr. Ambani’s in Bombay airport and ask them who uses your jets. You’ll get the answer.

RAJ SHAMANI: Come on. Deflecting is not right.

VIJAY MALLYA: Deflecting.

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m asking you what did you misuse it?

VIJAY MALLYA: What is misuse?

RAJ SHAMANI: I don’t know. Whatever they’re quoting. So do you agree with it or no?

VIJAY MALLYA: So you agree with the CBI?

RAJ SHAMANI: No, I’m asking you. Do you agree with it or no?

VIJAY MALLYA: I am not agree with it. Obviously I don’t agree with it.

RAJ SHAMANI: You used it for business purposes only.

VIJAY MALLYA: What do you mean business purposes? If I had to fly on holiday, I’d say private jet, Air India. Say.

RAJ SHAMANI: That’s what CBI had problem with. Is that the case?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes.

RAJ SHAMANI: That you. You. You took the. Come on. That would not only be the case, that would be a part of your case.

VIJAY MALLYA: Let’s say this is what I’m saying. The principal one was misrepresentation.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

The Lookout Circular Controversy

RAJ SHAMANI: So that is first misrepresentation. And because of this they issued an LOC. They issued LOC, right? Lookout circular to the immigration office that Vijay Mallya should not leave the country.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I’m not aware of any of that.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. Because then there was a public issuance against in 2015 where the LOC which was issued for you had few words changed.

VIJAY MALLYA: I know nothing about this.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. So there was and this I’m quoting from again another article where I can show you the article where it’s.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’ve never heard of this before.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. So the article said that you met with someone really powerful. And after that in just few months the lookout circular got changed and the lookout circular changed into. Okay, next time to the immigration officers that if Vijay Mallya comes to the airport and want to leave the country you need to inform us where is he going and for what purposes. You don’t need to stop him. But earlier the CBI put out a lookout notice that you should not allow Vijay Mallya to leave the country. And this change was made in 2015.

VIJAY MALLYA: I know nothing about this. This is the first time you are informing me. I went in and out multiple times during the Never, never a problem at all. And what you’re telling me now is news to me. I never known of LOC issued or any other form of notice.

RAJ SHAMANI: The Change happened on 24th November 2015. Just few words. And it specifically read this was a fresh LOC that he needs to be questioned before leaving the country. Where is he going and needs to. And this needs to be informed to CBI. After that he can continue traveling. He should not be stopped.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s fine. That you said when in 2015.

RAJ SHAMANI: 24-11-2015 a fresh LOC was.

VIJAY MALLYA: And before.

RAJ SHAMANI: Before that there was just. I don’t have anything.

VIJAY MALLYA: Must have gone in four times. Before that two. Oh. So then where’s the LOC?

RAJ SHAMANI: So all of this is random thing that you met someone really powerful in Delhi and got changed and you changed your CBI circular or something.

VIJAY MALLYA: Nonsense.

The Departure from India

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. Then another thing. Then another series of event happened. Because after your public birthday party people started losing their shit. They started going, they started getting pissed. It became even more public. This 2015 end of it, your supreme court interfered. I guess supreme court entered in this whole case and they put up a bench that third March 2016. Your case needs to be heard or needs to be represented in front of Supreme Court. On the 1st of March 2016, you. I think you were in Delhi. You went to the parliament and the 2nd of March you left the country one day before when you were about to be present in front of Supreme Court. Is all of this real or none of it is real?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no. This is completely false. There was no Supreme Court hearing. I was not summoned to court. I’m not aware of any court hearing. I told the Finance Minister Arun Jaitley before leaving for the airport. And then I flew from Delhi to London. I was on my way to Geneva for a FIA World Council meeting which was fixed months ago. I told the Finance Minister because I went from Parliament to Delhi airport. When this news hit the media once again. It created a storm.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: People went running to Mr. Jaitley. He denied meeting me. A Congress MP saw us and then said to the media, no, I saw them together. Mr. Jaitley had to retract his statements. And yes, yes, I met him. But only while I was walking. It was a fleeting meeting. I never said. I went to Mr. Jaitley’s office, sat in front of him, had tea with him. All I said is I told the Finance Minister while leaving, I’m going to London. I have to go to Geneva for a meeting. I’ll be back. Please tell the banks to sit across the table and settle with me. How long does this take? This one sentence, A minute or two discussion. But you see the way he denied it. Then when the Congress MP pointed out his mistake that he saw us, he quickly changed. This is the problem with the media. Particularly where I am concerned. They conjure up stuff. They blow things well out of proportion. Okay. If it’s good for their business, let them continue doing it.

RAJ SHAMANI: So all of this is nuisance that on 2nd of March you left Delhi airport for London in a Jet Airways Flight 9W122 from T3 with 55 big suitcases. And somebody says 27. Somebody says 55. I mean different newspapers, different stuff.

VIJAY MALLYA: What difference does it make? They say LOC. Then they say no LOC. Then I tell the Finance minister I’m going. Then he says no. Then he said no. He had a fleeting meeting with me. And all this 15, 18 suitcases. Complete and utter rubbish.

RAJ SHAMANI: So your intention was never to leave the country?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, please understand this whole narrative of Bhagya Bhagoda.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because this is where it starts.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. This is coming from people who don’t know their facts.

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell us the facts.

The Real Story Behind the UK Stay

VIJAY MALLYA: I came to England in 1988. I got my indefinite leave to remain ILR in 1992. For 32 years I have been a permanent resident of the UK. Allowed only to spend hundred and eighty days in India because I have preserved my non resident status since 1988. That is why I used to go back and forth so often. All right. So I came. I was attending a scheduled meeting in Geneva like I told you. What happened? The loudest anchor in the television industry started. All the media piled on. Huge hungama. How did Vijay Mallya leave? How did he leave? Like any normal person on a Jet Airways flight. That too after telling the Finance Minister that I’m going driving from Parliament House to the airport. Right. So this whole tamasha started. Right. How does government normally react to media frenzy? Check your own facts. So I said okay. Let things cool down. On top of that I was negotiating with my foreign collaborators to sell certain shares so that I could pay the banks. My intention was always to settle with the banks. Right?

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: So I told. I wrote to the Enforcement directorate who sent me a summons. I need some time. I’m negotiating. I want to settle with the banks. I’ve got some business to do. I’ve already appeared before the CBI. I will of course I will appear before you. Right. Just give me some time. What happened in the meantime? They revoked my passport. Revoked it. Okay.

RAJ SHAMANI: When? When Was this revoking?

VIJAY MALLYA: 2016.

RAJ SHAMANI: Oh right. Before you left.

VIJAY MALLYA: Before.

RAJ SHAMANI: Right after you left.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Passport gone. Now how to travel?

RAJ SHAMANI: So you got stuck because they revoked your passport. Your intention was to come back to country.

VIJAY MALLYA: Many things may have been different.

RAJ SHAMANI: But your intention was without.

VIJAY MALLYA: Without a passport, where do you go?

RAJ SHAMANI: Nowhere.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because you were a British citizen.

VIJAY MALLYA: Not citizen. Permanent resident.

RAJ SHAMANI: Permanent resident.

VIJAY MALLYA: I kept my Indian passport. Because I was a Member of Parliament.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Which I could not be a member of Parliament had I not been an Indian citizen.

RAJ SHAMANI: So if your intention was to come back to the country why didn’t people allow you?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, that you should ask the people. Why should I sit and speculate?

The Extradition Battle

RAJ SHAMANI: But aren’t they spending millions of dollars in cases to get your extradition done?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes. Because they have to make a show of things as well. No. Have I? Please. Let’s be very clear. Can somebody from the government say to the public what crime have I committed for which I must be investigated? Have I stolen money from the banks? You must have a prima facie case that I’ve stolen. You can’t just make it up in your head.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: That I’ve stolen money from the banks. You need some prima facie evidence. Have I done any money laundering? Have I done any drug smuggling? Have I been involved in any violent crime? What is the allegation against Vijay Mallya? Nobody can have an allegation against Vijay Mallya of dishonesty. Because I have always been honest and truthful. I have never borrowed and I have never cheated and never will.

The Willful Defaulter Tag

RAJ SHAMANI: But you got this tag of willful defaulter.

VIJAY MALLYA: Willful defaulter is a person who can pay and who doesn’t pay. That’s a crime. That’s a crime.

RAJ SHAMANI: Isn’t it?

VIJAY MALLYA: You make up your mind then why did you freeze all my assets? You froze my assets in 2016. Right? That’s how you’ve recovered 14,100 crores. Right? You can’t freeze assets of a person on one hand and call him a chore on the other hand.

RAJ SHAMANI: See, they call you willful defaulter because you had money and you didn’t pay. And that’s why they had to take such a strict action to freeze your assets. If you would have paid earlier then they would have not done this. But if you’re saying that from 2012 to 2015 you have applied multiple times in the court that you want to settle.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why is all of this happening?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think it’s very clear. It’s also been a part of the media where a particular senior officer of the State bank of India said to a good friend of mine that as a banker I would have settled with Vijay a long time ago. But if I do any settlement with him I’ll have the CBI on my neck the very next day.

RAJ SHAMANI: And why do you think CBI has to do all of these things? Because technically bank. You’re saying banks want 14,000 crores.

VIJAY MALLYA: Isn’t the CBI called a caged parrot?

RAJ SHAMANI: But then banks ultimately want 14,000 crore. So they don’t want anything to happen. Why would bank want to settle your?

VIJAY MALLYA: Who knows? If you go to the banks today, they may tell you I owe even more money.

The Real Numbers

RAJ SHAMANI: Tell me real numbers. Because somewhere it’s written 9000 crore. Or somewhere it’s written there is no 9000.

VIJAY MALLYA: That is all imagination. 6203 is the real number. Judgment debt. 6203. 6203.

RAJ SHAMANI: And you have been vocal about it. I was going through your tweets publicly. You have been very vocal about it. Hey, I want to pay. Come talk to me. Hey, I want to settle. There are multiple times you’ve just said it.

VIJAY MALLYA: I show you letters I’ve written to the banks. Nothing. We cannot engage with you. Period.

RAJ SHAMANI: You were part of the parliament and you were influential. You had money. You’re powerful. You could do nothing about all of this. What went wrong?

The Poster Boy Narrative

VIJAY MALLYA: That probably is the cause of everything that followed. Who do you make a poster boy? Somebody who is insignificant. Is it?

RAJ SHAMANI: Why would you want to?

VIJAY MALLYA: If you want to make an example of somebody, who do you make an example of? A visible person or an invisible person?

RAJ SHAMANI: Definitely visible person.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct. So that there you’ve got the answer.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why would they want to make an example out of you? When you were ready to settle, it was just a business failure.

VIJAY MALLYA: In your terms it suits you to reject a settlement offer and to continue to claim that amounts are due to the banks. And therefore you’re a defaulter. And therefore we are going to hound you and chase you. It suits the narrative. Today in India, business failure means fraud.

RAJ SHAMANI: If purely that line you’re talking about.

VIJAY MALLYA: Then yes, about me. Why people tag me willful defaulter. Why they accuse me? Why the narrative is so negative about me? What happened to poor Naresh Goel? What happened? India’s biggest airline jet collapsed. Naresh Goel went to jail. What happened to people like Gautam Thapur in Delhi in jail? Right.

So if your business does badly, you’re automatically referred to as a fraud. The inference is that you have stolen. In which countries does this happen? The biggest companies in the world fail, right? Are there their management, senior management put in jail. Are they accused of fraud? The whole purpose of business is associated with certain risk as well.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yep.

VIJAY MALLYA: Right. But in India, sadly you have a business that fails. You’re accused of fraud and improper conduct.

The Recovery Question

RAJ SHAMANI: And people say and the government and the agencies that your fraud or people who businesses have failed are fraud. Because they’ve taken money from the banks which is a common taxpayers money, which is common people’s money. So if you take common people’s money and you’re not able to repay it then you’re considered wrong. But if in your case, if they have actually recovered more than 2.5x of it or probably somewhere around that number, why are they still behind you?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because as I said, have you ever heard of any bank not rendering an account to a borrower or a guarantor despite 15 reminders the same banks have not given me a statement of account. Not one. Have you ever heard of such conduct anywhere in the world?

For the first time it is through the statement in parliament of the Finance Minister and the printed report of the Ministry of Finance that they have shown 14,100 crores recovered from me. The government have. The banks have not rendered a statement of account. That is why I have gone to the Karnataka High Court asking the court to direct the banks to give me a statement of account. That is the pitiful state of affairs.

Now let me explain things to you very in a summary fashion. In this entire debt of Kingfisher Airlines and the recovery you have the recovery officer of the debt recovery tribunal. The debt recovery tribunal is the one that gave the certificate of debt. They have recovery officers whose job it is to recover against that recovery certificate and inform the tribunal about how much has been recovered. Because when the full amount is recovered the debt recovery tribunal will issue a discharge certificate that your debt is paid.

Second is because the second guarantor United Breweries holdings limited is in liquidation. It is in the control of the official liquidator. The official liquidator is also obliged to give an account to the court right on the liquidation which includes being a co guarantor of the Kingfisher Airlines debt, right? Both these have stated in court in judicial proceedings that the banks have been fully paid. Yet the banks have not submitted a statement of account. I have had to go to the Karnataka High Court pleading with them to please direct the banks to submit a statement of account. And of course the official liquidator and the recovery officer as well. This is the conduct of those banks. And you’re asking me questions about why they didn’t do this and why they didn’t do that.

RAJ SHAMANI: Does it happen with other entrepreneurs as well?

VIJAY MALLYA: I’d be shocked if it did. I’ve never heard of anything like this.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think the Indian system gets rigged against the entrepreneurs or the business owners who get too powerful after a point?

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s certainly riggable.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because in your case, this is what happened, right?

VIJAY MALLYA: In my case, all the facts are there for everyone to see.

The Narrative Battle

RAJ SHAMANI: Sir. What’s the future like? What. What’s going to happen now? What’s happening in your story? What you’re telling is completely different than anything and everything that any Indian person out there who will do little research about you would find. It’s completely different than what you’re telling.

VIJAY MALLYA: But if you do research on me, what are you going to find? You will only find the narrative generated over a period of time by the Indian legacy media and to a certain extent the government and what they have said. And of course, when I say government, it includes CBI and ED and this, that and the other. That’s all you’ll find. All of which is false narrative, either deliberately written or in some cases with the media ignorantly written.

RAJ SHAMANI: So is there a businessman, politician, media kind of nexus against you in India?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know who is against me except this government. And I made no bones about it that I am their poster boy. I am also a political football. Right? You must have heard the narrative. BJP tells Congress, Congress responds to BJP. Vijay Mallya is the football in the middle.

Challenges of Doing Business in India

RAJ SHAMANI: What is the biggest challenge of doing business in India?

VIJAY MALLYA: Government. Explain. It’s in the Indian DNA. No matter what the state government or federal government may say about ease of doing business in India, there is no ease of doing business in India. There are hurdles, bureaucratic hurdles, political hurdles. All along the way. They may have reduced over a period of time, but no, I mean you can’t compare India and ease of doing business in India with any of the western economies.

RAJ SHAMANI: But how did you manage that before? Like earlier you expanded your group from couple of hundred crores to thousands of crore. Then definitely you must be navigating somehow with all these challenges. What did you do?

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s what I said. I had to maintain good relations with almost 29 countries. That’s the 29 states. All of which were empowered by the constitution to have their own policy on liquor. So I had to effectively be in the good books of 29 chief ministers.

RAJ SHAMANI: What do you mean by becoming or getting into good books of the government? Well, you know, like were you doing favors? They were asking favors to you?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, let me tell you, when elections were announced, I would desperately want to take a holiday outside India.

RAJ SHAMANI: Why?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because I didn’t want to be accessible. The politicians always felt that, you know, the liquor business was the cash cow that would meet their electoral aspirations. And you know, sometimes these aspirations were completely unreasonable and impractical but no. I mean, look, dealing with government doesn’t mean underhand exchange of money, okay? It definitely doesn’t. I mean, whoever said that, you know, I can buy my way through X, Y or Z is wrong. Okay? You can have good relations with people and provided you present a proposal to them that meets their own political objectives, it works well.

RAJ SHAMANI: But would there ever be exchange under the table as well? All of that used to work, you know.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not going to confirm or deny that because I leave it to your imagination because I think you know India as much as I know India.

RAJ SHAMANI: And they would ask for backing the election campaigns. That’s what they would ask technically. Or were there. Was there something else as well?

VIJAY MALLYA: Look, the demands were varied.

RAJ SHAMANI: Give me, give me example of two, three demands.

VIJAY MALLYA: First of all, cash. Second, copious amounts of alcohol, which is, seems to be an essential part of any electoral campaign.

RAJ SHAMANI: For free.

VIJAY MALLYA: Vehicles, vehicles, Cars. Vehicles, Jeeps, cars. Yeah. So it was multifarious. But the easiest for me was to disburse alcohol which is, you know, at the end of the day I was in a privileged position heading India’s largest alcohol company. I could say, all right, fine, you know, but yeah, alcohol plays a big role in elections in India, even today.

Current Life and Business

RAJ SHAMANI: How do you make money now?

VIJAY MALLYA: How do I make money?

RAJ SHAMANI: Like today? How do you make money?

VIJAY MALLYA: I make them. I. I get a modest salary from my company.

RAJ SHAMANI: Not the Indian companies?

VIJAY MALLYA: No.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you like, do you own anything here? There are companies here or in other countries.

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course. I mean, I told you I’ve been a non resident since 1988. Okay. Even though I sold Badger paints in 1996, I’ve had several other businesses outside of India for the last 30 years.

RAJ SHAMANI: What was your net worth at peak in India?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know because it fluctuated with the share value. But if any number you have great amount of speculation.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Frankly, what difference does it make?

RAJ SHAMANI: What’s your net worth day?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know. Probably zero according to the banks. Probably.

Daily Life in Exile

RAJ SHAMANI: Walk me through your day today. What do you do now after all of this is done? What time do you wake up? How do you keep yourself busy? What do you do?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I have six dogs. I love them. I love dogs, I play with them. I like to keep abreast of international news. I love my dogs, I play with them a lot. I have a few classic cars which I like to tinker with. But I have an office on the property next door with my staff. And yeah, as I told you, I have running businesses and so I keep an eye on them.

But sadly, a lot of time is taken on unproductive and very expensive legal matters. Sadly, once again, the banks in India, who are state owned banks, public sector banks, carried their attack on me here even before the UK courts. So as if Indian legal proceedings were not enough, they even came here fine. So I have to defend myself.

RAJ SHAMANI: And the businesses that you run here, they fund the legal fees and everything.

VIJAY MALLYA: That you’re doing, there’s, let’s put it this way, there’s enough to go around.

RAJ SHAMANI: What kind of business is that here? The same. Brewery or something else?

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh yeah, basically same.

RAJ SHAMANI: My core business, alcohol, brewery or all that. You love it. You love doing the same thing.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s what’s in my blood. You know, I used to joke when I was young, I said I was born in a bottle.

The Caged Bird

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you feel restricted now because you just use word, I was born in a bottle. Do you feel that you have been caged in a bottle again with all these legal matters because you don’t have a passport, you’re a free bird flying around all over the world.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Now you’re stuck here.

VIJAY MALLYA: That freedom went in 2016 when the Indian government revoked my passport. So it wasn’t a suspension, it was a revocation. So I knew back then the consequence was no travel. Right. So for a guy who used to be on a plane three, four times a week, flying around the world to be in one country for nine long years, certainly a game changer. It must be.

But it’s not a matter of life and death. I mean, it isn’t that profound because there’s enough and more to do and to enjoy a quality of life that, okay, has shrunk in many ways from what used to be. But it’s still okay. One must get on and move on.

RAJ SHAMANI: Does it not bother you?

VIJAY MALLYA: No. Do I? Well, it doesn’t bother me. Do I look bothered?

RAJ SHAMANI: Not to me.

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s not a question of what is the meaning of, do I get up in the morning and wipe my tears away every day? No.

RAJ SHAMANI: Someday some point, you’re like, I’m done with this. Like, what the hell is happening with me?

Facing Reality and Constitutional Rights

VIJAY MALLYA: What is my solution? What are my options? The government of India has revoked my passport. Right. All I can get is a one way travel pass to India. That’s it. What about my constitutional rights that every Indian citizen is entitled to a passport? And what happens if I try to enforce those? It will drag on for years in the court by the time I might be too old to travel.

RAJ SHAMANI: So don’t you feel lonely here?

VIJAY MALLYA: No. Well, I have a lot of my friends here in England. I lot of people come and visit me. Well, another one of life’s lessons is when times are tough, you realize who your actual friends are. And I have realized that very comprehensively. I mean those who used to be my so called buddies, who in times of my heyday, for lack of a better word, nowhere to be said, you.

Lost Friendships and Political Distance

RAJ SHAMANI: Used to hang out with a lot of billionaires, Bollywood celebrities, politicians, lot of people. And your friends from the corporate world, they all stopped taking up your calls.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no, no, no. The politicians certainly stopped. And I think as one one of the many politicians explained to me, quite truthfully, which I respect, he says if we are seen to be associated with Jews, this government will come after us. You know, because I think in the political world, I think it’s pretty well known and more importantly pretty obvious that this government is after me. So they want to protect themselves.

As far as corporate titans are concerned, I mean, Kiran Mazumdar, bless her soul, she’s like my sister, makes it a point to be in constant touch, comes to England, we always have a meal together and like that. There are a few other good friends who keep in touch, but otherwise, no, certainly not as frequently as I would have been in touch with them or seen them when I was in India and all these troubles hadn’t started.

Kiran Mazumdar Shaw’s Unwavering Support

RAJ SHAMANI: Talk about Kiran Mazumdar Shaw. She publicly talks about you and how close you were. Like since childhood you were friends. And she talks about your generosity, your optimism. She’s been very vocal that you gave it all to save and fight it all. She has gone out in public and said that just it was bad times and bad things which happened to you, but you were right and you gave it all away.

So she talks about it and someone of that stature living in a very public market in country like India, usually people stay away from these conversations and people would want to. She talks, but she doesn’t. She talks about it everyone. Every time people ask about you, she’s been okay about it. In fact, there was a statement that she said, lot of people are optimistic. Vijay was probably rather more optimistic than most.

VIJAY MALLYA: And she talks about it of just optimism. Let me tell you. Kiran and me grew up together. I talked about the brewery house in Bangalore at that time there was a little colony. So there was a brewery house in which I lived and then four other bungalows. The one next to the brewery house was actually occupied by Kiran Mazumdar and her father. Her father was the chief brewer and the technical director of UB.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay. And so Kiran and her two brothers and mom grew up in my house, in my. In my colony, with one wall separating us. So we were very, very close. And Kiran has been very, very different. She started off being a qualified brew master. How many Indian women can you think of who would go and qualify as a brewmaster? But Kiran was determined to do it and she did it in Australia.

So Kiran as an entrepreneur not only has been brilliant, but has a super brilliant track record. But she’s a tough cookie and she speaks her mind, which is something that people should respect. And being a woman at that. So I’m so grateful for her public support of me. She knows what I went through with Kingfisher Airlines. I used to share it with her all the time. And she knew that I gave it my all. I mean, forget about just putting in 3,000 crores. I mean, every bit of my blood, sweat and tears went into trying to make Kingfisher Airlines work.

The Loneliest Moments

RAJ SHAMANI: Now that she isn’t here, you are not there. Here you’re alone. Friends, parties, businesses, that busy, restless life. Nothing is there. In nine years, what was the loneliest day of your life?

VIJAY MALLYA: I. I always have had something to do. I haven’t been sitting alone. I told you, I. My interests keep me occupied. My pace of life is slowed down dramatically. My pace of life now is probably one of semi retirement, to be honest. But that’s what happens when you reach retirement age, isn’t it? So the frenzy of the past doesn’t last forever. And I’m in that phase. But I have enough and more interest to keep me occupied.

Media Perception and Public Image

RAJ SHAMANI: What do people misunderstand about you?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know what people understand to begin with. They forget about misunderstanding. I mean, people in general, particularly the media, they hate my guts. They don’t like the fact that I rarely get flustered. And they try to break me down deliberately, brick by brick. They try very, very hard.

But, you know, maybe it’s my upbringing in life, maybe because I started very young, I’m tough and tough. So I don’t get browbeaten. I don’t get pushed over. I stand my ground. And the media hate it. They absolutely hate it. So I’ve heard all this. Mallya is arrogant. Mallya is a show off. X, Y and Z. And the narrative keeps repeating time and time and time again because I have never taken out my handkerchief and started weeping in front of them. They would love that if I did that in front of the legacy media, probably the whole narrative about me would change. But that’s not me.

RAJ SHAMANI: Is this also. Has this become your defense mechanism now?

VIJAY MALLYA: There was never any defense mechanism.

RAJ SHAMANI: Now it has become your image that, hey, I don’t get. I’m not going to break in front of you guys, so I’m going to stick through it. And that’s why I won’t show my real side. I won’t show my real emotions. I won’t show what I’m feeling because.

VIJAY MALLYA: What I’m feeling is real. There is no other side. There is no other side. Please understand. For 50 years I’ve been in charge. I’ve been through a lot. I’ve been there, done that. He’s toughened me up. I faced the crisis of Kingfisher Airlines. I felt it more than anybody else. I gave it my all, but I kept myself together because I was a leader. If I had crumbled and collapsed, the airline would have crumbled and collapsed a lot earlier than it did.

The Pain of Business Failure

RAJ SHAMANI: What are you feeling right now as you talk about you gave it all and you still couldn’t save Kingfisher?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, I’m sad about it because, you know, it’s not just about Kingfisher. I have never been used to business failure. I took risks, I made bold decisions and I built my core business in alcohol into something I could be greatly proud of. I failed with Kingfisher and that hurts me more than anything else.

Kingfisher was a wonderful product, probably the most awarded airline ever, providing connectivity to places in India that were never connected by air before. And in an environment promising growth. Today, India is the biggest single growth market for aviation in the world. Can you imagine if Kingfisher was still flying? It was just circumstances at that particular time, government policies that didn’t help and mounting losses.

But I gave it my all, as I told you, quite apart from putting in 3000 crores cash into Kingfisher Airlines. And the final straw was the refusal to let Etihad invest in Kingfisher. And that was it. I had run out of options. Can you imagine how I felt? I felt miserable.

Confronting Fears and Worst-Case Scenarios

RAJ SHAMANI: What’s your biggest fear now?

VIJAY MALLYA: My fear?

RAJ SHAMANI: Are you afraid of anything?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, what can I be afraid of? What can I be afraid of? What do I do that would scare me? Living a semi retired life, what can happen that’s going to scare me?

RAJ SHAMANI: Extradition.

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh, yeah. Look, if you’re talking about the legal issues, there are multiple legal issues which I will defend before the courts of law, both in this country as well as in India. And any legal case can go either way. You can’t sit and predict the outcome. Neither can you celebrate a potential outcome and neither can you cry about a potential outcome. That’s what legal cases are all about.

RAJ SHAMANI: But are you prepared for the worst?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course I have to face the worst. I no qualms or no doubts in my mind that if the worst is what is destined for me, that’s what’s destined for me. And you face it head on.

RAJ SHAMANI: What do you think is worse? What can happen? The worst.

VIJAY MALLYA: Oh, what I think is very clear. What the Indian government wants. What many of the Indian media anchors want. Jail clothes, jail food in Tihar or Arthur Road or God knows which jail in India. That’s it. And spend the rest of my life behind bars. That’s it.

RAJ SHAMANI: Have you ever imagined yourself actually going to jail?

VIJAY MALLYA: Well, if that’s what is inevitable, what option do I have?

RAJ SHAMANI: Is it inevitable?

VIJAY MALLYA: Might be I’m not an astrologer. I’ll fight my way in court.

RAJ SHAMANI: Doesn’t it scare you that I lived a king sized life and now I might end up in jail and those that is how I’m going to end my life. Like probably correct.

VIJAY MALLYA: So I said earlier today, right? Hero to zero.

RAJ SHAMANI: And you’re okay with it?

VIJAY MALLYA: What option do I have?

Faith and Destiny

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you ever wake up and think like why me? What is this happening? Because in your head you’re clear and you say that you’ve not done anything wrong. So do you ever feel like why the hell me?

VIJAY MALLYA: Maybe that’s my destiny. Maybe my stars are misaligned.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you believe in it?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I don’t believe in astrology.

RAJ SHAMANI: But do you believe in God?

VIJAY MALLYA: In God, very much so. I’m deeply religious. I’ve gone to most of the temples in India, particularly South India. I’ve made my modest offerings to various temples. I. I don’t know whether you know, but the Sabarimala temple in Kerala, the entire gold roof was donated by me. Tirupati, Tirumala temple. The entire gold plating of the front of the sanctum was donated by me. I’ve donated dwajasthambas in the Subramanya temple and Mokambika temple. I. Yeah, so I definitely believe in God.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you not then question it?

VIJAY MALLYA: No, I don’t question it. I just, I just hate like I.

RAJ SHAMANI: Believe in God so much. I do so much for my religious belief and still I’m going through all of this.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Ultimately God will protect me that if I have to have a rough ride in the process. Maybe that was also what God wants.

Legal Battles and Future Hopes

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think winning the case is Important for you now or you’re like, even if it gets stretched, I’ve come terms to my life. I’m aging. It’s okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: Unfortunately, the word stretch doesn’t work in English courts. Okay. There’s nothing known as stretching a case in this country. In India, yes. Sadly, that’s why legal matters take so much time to resolve here. Dates fixed, trial dates fixed, decision rendered, story over. So you can’t willfully kind of string things along.

RAJ SHAMANI: But is it important for you to win?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes, because I believe I should win on merit. What have I done? I’ve done nothing wrong. I haven’t. I’m not a criminal.

Reflections and Regrets

RAJ SHAMANI: If you could go back to your younger self, what would you tell your younger self? Would you tell aim to do anything differently?

VIJAY MALLYA: I think the values I’ve instilled in my, my son in particular and my all my three children is by example, my hard work. They, of course they were very young, but they’ve seen how hard I worked and basically the dedication and commitment to your objectives and your responsibilities. That’s it.

RAJ SHAMANI: But would you go to your younger self and tell something different?

VIJAY MALLYA: What, what, what choices would I have if you gave me a choice on what I would choose? I might choose.

RAJ SHAMANI: But if I was probably never start Kingfisher Airlines. Because that all cost you the trouble.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, Good possibility. Good possibility that maybe I should have just said I’m going to stick to, to my core business of alcohol and just not do anything else.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think any part of it you would have dealt with little. In a different way. Anything about you, about the choices you’ve made?

The Finance Minister’s Advice

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Maybe I made one wrong choice in listening to the Finance Minister, Mr. Pranab Mukherjee. When I went to him, I realized the writing was on the wall. There were very tough times. And I told him I have to downsize this airline. And he said, no, no, no, you cannot and the banks will support you and so on and so forth. And yeah, I listened to him. Maybe I shouldn’t have. I should have gone ahead and downsized it. And had I downsized it, the financial burden would have been far less and probably Kingfisher would have been flying till today.

Perceptions of Wealth

RAJ SHAMANI: What’s one thing about extreme, extreme wealth that people, common people, don’t understand?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know. Because I’ve never had extreme wealth, ever.

RAJ SHAMANI: The kind of wealth you had was extreme for a large share of people around the world, not just our country.

VIJAY MALLYA: Once again, a major misconception. Just because I had the Kingfisher Calendar with pretty models, just because I sponsored The Indian Derby in horse racing just because I sponsored fashion. All of which were, to my mind marketing tools with the singular objective of promoting my brands. And I got the tag of king of good times, which gave the impression that I was super rich. I didn’t spend a penny from my pocket. None.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you were super rich. You still are super rich.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not. All my assets in India have been taken. So yes, there were thousands of crores. They’ve all gone. Right. So what have I left? That’s India. Here you’re sitting in my house. I’ve explained my lifestyle. It’s normal. What’s super rich about it?

RAJ SHAMANI: Come on. This is super rich.

VIJAY MALLYA: What’s super rich about it?

RAJ SHAMANI: This is super rich. Let’s just agree to disagree here because, come on, what are we even talking about? This is not a life of somebody, a normal taxpayer or a normal person going to a job or. 99% of the people in the world. Were you ever in control of your public image?

VIJAY MALLYA: Why? Never even tried.

The Media-Created Brand

RAJ SHAMANI: Because what you’re telling. The version that I get to see in last two days and what probably millions of people would get to see now is a version that is completely different. That is out there.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s why I’m doing the podcast with you.

RAJ SHAMANI: You built a personal brand which crashed down way worse than Kingfisher Airlines. Did you ever make it or it was always just the media who did it?

VIJAY MALLYA: It was only the media who did it.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you were never control of your personal brand Ever? At any point?

VIJAY MALLYA: Not once. Never even paid attention to it and you never bothered? No. Why should I bother?

RAJ SHAMANI: And why bother now?

VIJAY MALLYA: Absolutely correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: But what’s going on? Like why? Why do you care now?

The Debt Recovery Documents

VIJAY MALLYA: Because I’m not talking about brand, Vijay Mallya. I’m talking about how I have been wronged. I’d like to show you something. All right. Here is. Here is the recovery certificate of the Debt Recovery Tribunal. Right. It says recovery certificate 6203 crores. 35 lakhs 3879 and paisa 42 only. That’s the 6203 crores plus interest at 11.5% with yearly rests. Right. So that is. That is evidence of the debt. Right? Okay. You asked me earlier, where did this 9000 crore figure come from?

RAJ SHAMANI: This is the official Debt Recovery Tribunal, Karnataka. Bangalore’s document.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s.

RAJ SHAMANI: And they have said that you owe 6203 crore rupees.

VIJAY MALLYA: Me? Along with four.

RAJ SHAMANI: Four others? Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. Kingfisher Airlines, United Breweries, Vijay Mallya Kingfisher. Fine.

VIJAY MALLYA: West.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: So the assets of all those combined. Right. Would need to satisfy the judgment debt of 6,000.

RAJ SHAMANI: 6,200 crores.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Before I go very further, I’m the one under attack.

RAJ SHAMANI: Not all four.

VIJAY MALLYA: Anyway, you asked me about where this 9,000 figure came from. Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because it’s written 6203.

VIJAY MALLYA: No problem. Plus interest. Whatever the case may be. That is dated 2017. If you see the date of the document.

RAJ SHAMANI: I can’t. Where is this?

VIJAY MALLYA: Maybe you should go to the end.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. Last signing.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Date of deliveries. 26-7-17.

The Prime Minister’s Statement

VIJAY MALLYA: Correct. Okay. And then I’ll show you another report about an interview with the Prime Minister. Okay. March 29, 2019. In which the Prime Minister has said he owed 9,000 crore. But government recovered 14,000 crore. Says PM Modi on India’s action against Vijay Mallya.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why would a PM say 9000 crore where this number?

VIJAY MALLYA: I am as perplexed as you are. Because the banks have not ever submitted a statement of account to me. Which in itself is very strange. But the Prime Minister has said it and it has been widely reported. Right. And it quotes the figure of 9000 crores. Now the Prime Minister of India is not going to make a frivolous statement. Somebody must have told him this number. But I wonder if there was no keen governmental interest in me. It’s not normal for a Prime Minister of the world’s largest democracy to be talking about recovery from a guarantor called Vijay Mallya.

RAJ SHAMANI: He addressed it because your case was very public and a lot of people are questioning it. You became a public matter. You were no more a private defaulter.

VIJAY MALLYA: So I’m the only one according to you?

RAJ SHAMANI: No. You were way too public than others.

VIJAY MALLYA: There are several other companies who have borrowed a lot more money. I mean a lot. Seriously, a lot more money. But nobody gets mentioned. Anyway. That’s fine. I’m just narrating the sequence of events. Then.

Who Is the Real Opponent?

RAJ SHAMANI: Before we go there.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: Who are you actually fighting against? Media, Government or judiciary?

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not in court against the media. I’m not in court against the judiciary. I can’t be. I’m defending myself from those who are prosecuting me. And the prosecutor is either the government or the bank. Simple.

The IDBI Bank Allegations

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay. I’ll go through the series of events. Let’s go through those events together.

VIJAY MALLYA: One of the sort of allegations is that I improperly borrowed money from the IDBI bank by some sort of nexus.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. Between you and the General manager and.

VIJAY MALLYA: No, no. The chairman and managing Director and Executive.

RAJ SHAMANI: Directors, which is a lot of people were involved. So that the normal rules of lending were not applicable to you.

VIJAY MALLYA: IDBI bank had a Reserve bank of India and a Ministry of Finance representative on their board. All the loans that Kingfisher Airlines received were approved by their board. Right? That I will draw your attention to. Public statement in 2021. Because IDBI is a publicly listed entity had to report their financial performance to the stock exchange. And announcing the quarter one results, the Managing Director and CEO M.K. Sharma said that 278 crores by way of principle and 331 crores by way of interest aggregating. 753 crores was recovered from Kingfisher Airlines. This is in 2021 and therefore IDBI was paid in.

RAJ SHAMANI: Then why? Why does CBI and ED find you guilty?

The Enforcement Directorate’s Recovery Claims

VIJAY MALLYA: Because once they file their charge sheets the presumption is that you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. Whereas the law requires the opposite. You are presumed innocent until they prove you guilty. I’m still waiting for the CBI and enforcement directors to produce evidence of my guilt. But they continue to pursue me on behalf of the banks.

Now you see here, right? The. This follows the Finance Minister’s statement in Parliament on the floor of Parliament on December 17, 2024, which is a few months ago. But here is the annual report of the Ministry of Finance printed hard copy for the year 2425 in which they say under 4.2.14 restitution of properties to victims of money laundering slash legitimate claimants. Okay. And it goes on to say the Enforcement Directorate is not only actively pursuing the economic offenders to unravel the money laundering but at the same time is also making efforts for the restitution or return of assets to the banks and others who have been defrauded by the offenders. Right?

The ED has successfully restored properties valued at approximately rupees 22,280 crores to victims or legitimate claimants. The details of the restitution slash Restoration done by ED are given below. Number 1. Vijay Mallya case. Quantum of properties restored 14.131.6 crores. And in the comments section, details of restoration says complete amount of attached properties have been successfully restored to the public sector banks.

RAJ SHAMANI: How did they recover 14,000 crores? What did they sell? What did they do?

VIJAY MALLYA: They have not given me a statement of account.

RAJ SHAMANI: So you don’t know what property your shares have been sold.

VIJAY MALLYA: We talked earlier about properties that were given to them, right?

RAJ SHAMANI: So everything the give. Walk me through it again if you can Please. What were the things that. How did they recover 14,000 crores all my assets and highlight two or three.

The Missing Statement of Account

VIJAY MALLYA: Which got like 49 properties, everything they attached and they sold. But in the absence of a statement of account. Can you believe it that from 2017, the date of the DRT order till today 2025, the banks have not given me a statement of account. How much recovery they made, on which date, how much interest they have charged, how the interest gets reduced because of recoveries made, etc. And what the net position is. Nothing.

15 reminders to the banks from my English lawyers remain unanswered. Letters from me personally to the Chairman of the SBI remains unanswered. And my last letter requesting a meeting to resolve these issues came back with a response saying we are not interested in meeting. I have had to go to the Karnataka High Court to request the court to direct the banks to give me a statement of account. Is this normal? Do you think there is another example like this anywhere in the world? I mean it’s ridiculous. So if I’m not targeted then why am I being treated like this?

RAJ SHAMANI: But recovering all the money that you owed is not as same as you paying them willfully. These are two different things.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes. So maybe you made four different settlement.

Settlement Attempts

RAJ SHAMANI: Offers from writing from when to when.

VIJAY MALLYA: So around 2016, including before the Supreme Court of India which the banks dismissed.

RAJ SHAMANI: Before you left the country, you made this?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I’ve been trying to settle with the banks.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you have that proof?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, it’s public record. Supreme Court of India records. Absolutely. I would also like to remind you I told the Finance Minister that I was leaving in 2016 in March and told him that please, please facilitate meeting with the banks to settle this loan issue.

The Timing of Departure

RAJ SHAMANI: You know, here’s something that don’t add up for me. On 29th February 2016, Supreme Court announced that the plea seeking action against Vijay Mallya would be heard on March 3rd. And you left on March 2nd.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not aware of this Supreme Court directive.

RAJ SHAMANI: How is it possible? Somebody from insider must have told you something. Because if a Supreme Court declares a date against you, how were you not aware? You were already fighting. There were lawyers after lawyers. I’m sure there must be something because.

VIJAY MALLYA: There was no such Supreme Court directive. Simple.

RAJ SHAMANI: But it’s out there in every media, everywhere. But it’s written like if you go back, if you, if you search today, all the newspapers online, everything that you see, it said that on the 29th of February Supreme Court directed that and you left on March 2nd.

VIJAY MALLYA: But my world Council meeting. Okay. Obligation and appointment was fixed three months before that.

RAJ SHAMANI: That is okay. I’m not saying that.

VIJAY MALLYA: That was already a well established travel plan. Plus I once again remind you, I told the Finance Minister himself on the day of my departure.

RAJ SHAMANI: But that doesn’t mean that you are not aware of this.

VIJAY MALLYA: You are. What? I’m. I’m sorry, I don’t get it.

RAJ SHAMANI: Aware of the fact that Supreme Court has a hearing against you on March 3rd?

VIJAY MALLYA: Absolutely not. There was no such hearing. There was no such hearing.

RAJ SHAMANI: Supreme Court has said this, right?

The Passport Revocation and Legal Battles

VIJAY MALLYA: So like I have provided you documentary evidence. If I’m shown a piece of paper that states that there was a Supreme Court hearing in my case scheduled on the day of my departure, March 3rd, you.

RAJ SHAMANI: You left on March 2nd.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: So unfortunately I don’t have the Supreme Court document, but I only have news clippings and news.

VIJAY MALLYA: I am not aware of any such Supreme Court directive. I’m not aware of it.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay, then the other case, you said once you landed here your passport was revoked. You wanted to maybe come back. But you were yourself in shock that the passport was revoked, right?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes.

RAJ SHAMANI: Walk me through the day when you got to know that you can’t come back to India.

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t remember the exact date, but.

RAJ SHAMANI: Like what were you going through? When did you get like the moment you got to know that your passport being suspended or revoked?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah, but suspension and other forms of restriction would have been well understood or perceived differently. But revocation of a passport, it’s the most severe form of withdrawal, right? To evoke.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: So because I did not attend the summons of the Enforcement Directorate, to which I replied and I said I’m coming back, but I need some time. I need to arrange some money to pay off the bank loans, etc. But they revoked the passport. What they intended to achieve my revocation of my passport, I still do not know.

RAJ SHAMANI: But. So on March 2, you left March 8, Banks informed Supreme courts that you have left the country on 15 April your suspension came for your passport revocation. Suspension was 15 April 2016 and 24 April was the revocation.

VIJAY MALLYA: You know the dates better than me. Okay, fine.

RAJ SHAMANI: So from 15 to 24. MEA says that because there was no reply from you, they had to revoke it. Why didn’t you Reply between after 15 when you got to know that your passport getting suspended?

VIJAY MALLYA: I replied to them, I don’t remember. But they revoked the passport. I mean that’s what matters.

RAJ SHAMANI: Because you were not Replying to them. That’s what their reply is.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s what they officially told you.

RAJ SHAMANI: That’s what they have said it officially in public.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not aware.

RAJ SHAMANI: I didn’t go talk to them.

VIJAY MALLYA: I’m not.

RAJ SHAMANI: I can only talk about what I could find online on through newspapers. So that’s the only thing, unfortunately, I could talk about.

VIJAY MALLYA: Sad thing in my case is a lot of people concoct things, but it’s fine. I mean, ultimately the bottom line is the passport was revoked. Yeah, yeah. So. And then remains revoked.

Fighting Back and Legal Strategy

RAJ SHAMANI: So didn’t you fight back?

VIJAY MALLYA: What is there for me to do.

RAJ SHAMANI: To get the passport back?

VIJAY MALLYA: I have to claim my rights under the Constitution of India that I have a constitutional right to a passport. Yeah.

RAJ SHAMANI: So fight like everyone else. Like the way you would go back and be like, this is wrongfully done to me. So let me get my passport back. I’ll fight it. I’ll come back to the country, I’ll abide by the law and I’ll fight in the courts.

VIJAY MALLYA: Raj, in your view, how many fronts should somebody open up, how many battles should you open up and engage in? Just everything unlimited. I have enough and more to do. Right. And I want to focus my legal battles. Remember, they are not only time consuming. Reading volumes of legal papers is no fun and lawyer fees are expensive. So one at a time.

RAJ SHAMANI: But don’t you think it makes it worse for you because you didn’t come back to the country, they tag you as fugitive fraud. And all of these attacks because you choose to not come back to the country.

VIJAY MALLYA: If I have a fair assurance of a fair trial and a dignified existence in India. You may be right, but I don’t.

Conditions for Return to India

RAJ SHAMANI: Would you be willing to return to country if you’re assured fair trial?

VIJAY MALLYA: If I am assured, absolutely. I will. I will think about it seriously. But you should also be aware that there are other people who the government of India is targeting for extradition from the UK back to India, in whose case they have got judgment from the High Court of Appeal that Indian detention conditions are violative of Article 3 of the Constitution of the ECHR. I’m sorry. And therefore they can’t be sent back. The plea was basically the prolonged detention without trial for which we all know there are numerous examples. They just lock you up and throw away the key. That’s not justice.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you were. You were extradited as well, right? You lost the case.

VIJAY MALLYA: It’s all right. I mean, I have.

RAJ SHAMANI: They arrested you as well and then they left. They. They granted you bail Right. What happened?

VIJAY MALLYA: Normal. Part of extradition. Normal. That’s the procedure.

RAJ SHAMANI: What happened with the extradition?

VIJAY MALLYA: My stay in England is fully legitimate.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you lost the case in UK High Court. Right. To the Indian authorities.

VIJAY MALLYA: There is more than the particular case that you are referring to. So there are proceedings, ongoing proceedings in this country. That’s one of the legal battles I’m fighting that I told you about.

RAJ SHAMANI: But if you’re assured a fair trial. What do you think is that assurance? What does it look like? What guarantees would you need that you would ever think of considering?

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s something for the lawyers to discuss. But if you would agree with me, the conduct and the track record of the CBI and ED in respect of other unfortunate people. Doesn’t inspire too much confidence, does it? I mean, I can rattle off a whole bunch of names of people. Right.

Business Failure vs. Fraud

RAJ SHAMANI: See. Let’s talk about your case.

VIJAY MALLYA: About the fact that in India, sadly a business failure is compared or is equivalent to a fraud.

RAJ SHAMANI: But there are numerous cases of Indian businessmen who have defaulted on loan. And they’ve still stayed in the country and have fought and they have not left the country. And that’s why people don’t call them chore. They look them in a bad eye. Because that’s something which socially we are conditioned to look at in that way. But they stayed there. That’s why they’ve not been called fugitives or chore.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay.

RAJ SHAMANI: And there are cases like. There’s so many cases like that.

VIJAY MALLYA: Fine. Call me a fugitive for not going to India post March. I didn’t run away. I flew out of India on a pre scheduled visit. Right. Fair enough. I did not return for reasons that I consider are valid. So if you want to call me a fugitive, go ahead. But where’s the chore coming from? Where is the chore?

Allegations of Financial Misconduct

RAJ SHAMANI: Because the agencies in the country, CBI, ED, all the courts, the highest court, they all have found misrepresentation of funds. And they have cases against you. And they’ve concluded their cases by saying that your financial transactions were not clean.

VIJAY MALLYA: There’s no chori there.

RAJ SHAMANI: You took loan. Your company, Kingfisher Airlines took loan to revive the company. But then you took that money and offshored that money into different accounts around the world. That’s what the case is about. If I’m not mistaken, I think CBI in 2017, they concluded around 423 crores were found. Then ED said something around 3,000 crores had some problem with money laundering. So there were these. These numbers. I can find exact numbers and I Can quote which I found out.

VIJAY MALLYA: No problem.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why? Like ED said 3547 crore was laundered in 2017. CBI alleged that 423 crore was from Kingfisher Airlines. Loan was siphoned off for unrelated expenses. Can you explain why that happened? Why these. All these agencies are against you. And multiple courts are against you. And forget this. If you’re calling India and everybody is a system. It’s a nexus. They all are trying to make you a fraud. Multiple international courts, Swiss, Switzerland authorities, UK High Court. One of the courts from UK. They have also found you guilty for misrepresentation of funds. Right. And they’ve lost cases. Swiss. Not co. Swiss authorities.

VIJAY MALLYA: What about the Swiss authority?

RAJ SHAMANI: They’ve also found that there were transactions during those times.

Defending Against Money Laundering Charges

VIJAY MALLYA: We have found nothing. The Swiss authority froze my children’s accounts based on a request by the government of India. They did not adjudicate on anything. The government of India wrote to all these foreign governments saying Vijay Mallya and his family’s properties should be frozen. Right. Only the Swiss acted on it. The French acted on it. Fine. They were not stolen properties or acquired from any money due to due from Kingfisher Airlines to the banks. There is absolutely no evidence.

The CBI and ED are well known to concoct, fabricate and present false evidence. That’s fine. But they have to prove it. As I said, the norm is you are guilt. You are innocent until you are proven guilty. Not the other way around. Now let me explain. The 423 crores in an airline. More than 50% of operating costs are in foreign currency. You lease planes, you pay in dollars. Okay. You import spares, you pay in dollars. You have aircraft checks and services, you pay in dollars. Right? So the money has to go out of India. You can concoct whatever you want and say that money sent out of India means siphoning money.

RAJ SHAMANI: But why are they calling unrelated expenses all of these words expenses? For these reasons they would be related expenses.

VIJAY MALLYA: But that is a question that the CBI must answer. The allegations are against me. I am refuting those allegations. I am saying all these allegations are complete nonsense.

RAJ SHAMANI: And how would you explain 3547 crores which ED has alleged.

VIJAY MALLYA: That’s not sent out of India. That is the borrowing money. Banks.

RAJ SHAMANI: But they claim it has been laundered.

VIJAY MALLYA: What is laundry? If I laundered it means. What are you suggesting I stole it? What is laundered? Laundered to me is trying to turn cash to check and Check to cash. That’s laundering. Right? If they say I’ve laundered the money what are they saying I did with that money? Did I steal it? Did I fund my lifestyle with it? What is the essence? What is the charge of laundering?

The Common Man’s Understanding

RAJ SHAMANI: Here’s the basic case. Let me try to explain you what a common man in India understands about your case. In very basic language. If I borrow 100 rupees from a bank I use 50 rupees from that money to buy a property outside India. And I only have 50 left. And that 50 I spent in my business trying to make it work. And then when the banks are asking me to to get the money I say I don’t have any money. Now banks are not saying that why did you burn the 50 rupees in making the business work? They are questioning why did you transfer this 50 rupee to buy something else outside? That is the whole case. And in your case numbers are outrageous.

VIJAY MALLYA: So where is any iota of evidence that I used even one rupee of Kingfisher Airlines funds to acquire overseas properties? There is no such allegation.

RAJ SHAMANI: So what are CBI and ED concluding then? What? They have won cases in India. They’ve concluded certain things and that’s why they’re fighting on some grounds. Why would UK courts even entertain if there’s no proof? Why would anybody have anything to entertain? What Indian CBI authorities action against you or case against you if there’s no proof?

UK Court’s Role in Extradition

VIJAY MALLYA: The job of the UK court is only to establish and determine whether there is a prima facie case to be sent to trial. Right. The UK court has not adjudicated and said you are either guilty or innocent. The job of a UK extradition judge is to say is what CBI is saying. Fine. Is there a case to be tried in front of a judge? That’s the limit. They have determined that. Now it is for the CBI and me to fight it out.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: In the court they provide their evidence. I will provide my evidence. Okay. So that’s as far as the UK court is concerned.

RAJ SHAMANI: Got it. So it has just got gone to the trial.

VIJAY MALLYA: So. Absolutely.

RAJ SHAMANI: Okay.

VIJAY MALLYA: What is the allegation? I misrepresented the Kingfisher financials.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

VIJAY MALLYA: Right. To the IDBI.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah.

Allegations and Defense

VIJAY MALLYA: I colluded with the senior management of the IDBI to get the loan. Right. And then I misused the proceeds of that 900 crore loan. This is the three allegations. The allegation. Sub allegation about Formula One team sponsorship. I responded to you earlier. The Formula One team sent back 10 million pounds to Kingfisher Airlines to help it. All right.

They brought in Royal Challengers Bangalore as a cricket team. That was a sponsorship money paid right for the umpire’s uniform where it said fly Kingfisher. It was a pure for advertising. Of course the CBI says it was misuse of funds. Fair enough. Everybody is entitled their opinion. But when the case is tried before a judge it is the judge who will decide who’s right, who’s wrong. Whether this amounts to siphoning or diversion or improper use.

In terms of the collusion. Right. There is not an iota of proof. Not an iota of proof. I met Chairman Agarwal twice and in two meetings along with four other executive directors of IDBI Bank. Is it at all conceivable that I would be able to make some sort of corrupt backhanded arrangement with them? Absolutely not. But the loan was subsequently approved by the IDBI board.

If there was something so blatantly wrong in the sanction process because Kingfisher didn’t meet the norms. Right. Kingfisher’s financials were weak. Yes, I agree. But the board of the IDBI bank would have found out and commented upon it themselves. He approved it because the cb. So the CBI are making allegations, all of which are fine. But there is an equally robust defense against these allegations.

Brand Valuation Controversy

RAJ SHAMANI: In the same case. When it comes to IDBI and all the other consortium of banks which gave you loan. It is also said that there was an independent agency from UK which put out a brand valuation of 4100 crores on Kingfisher’s brand. But in reality the brand value was only 160 crores when later was audited by an independent valuer. And that was the mismanagement and that was the collusion between you and the IDBI board and stuff that you sold them. And you misrepresented the brand value which in reality was not the case.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay. So let me tell you. There was no UK independent agency.

RAJ SHAMANI: Grant Thornton.

VIJAY MALLYA: Grant Thornton is a very, very well established accounting company. Hired by me, not by anybody else. And the other company was Brand Finance. Both these companies gave a brand valuation. Right. I submitted the Grant Thornton brand valuation report. Right. The bank took it. I had two recognized valuers submitted one report which they accepted.

Now is that fraud on my part? If they didn’t want it, they said this is not worth the paper it’s written on. Tear it up and throw it away. I would have done so. It’s all very well in hindsight. To construct a case with all sorts of frivolous allegations. And fine, if it’s going to be in a court of law, thrashed out, it will be.

Supreme Court Orders

RAJ SHAMANI: But how is Supreme Court favoring all of these then?

VIJAY MALLYA: Because none of my cases in the Supreme Court.

RAJ SHAMANI: Supreme Court ordered you to disclose all your assets on 21st April 2016, right?

VIJAY MALLYA: They duly did.

RAJ SHAMANI: And they also asked you to pay bank a substantial amount to show your commitment that you’re ready to pay everything. Because you kept saying that you were ready to pay, right? Did you do that?

VIJAY MALLYA: I made all the disclosures under oath. On behalf of myself and my entire family. Including my children.

Summary of Events

RAJ SHAMANI: Now what’s the case? Now where is this heading? In your words, Explain me. Okay, forget all of these things. We’ll come back to what happened on the 25th of February. Which you are recently. Which recently you did. Filing a petition to Karnataka Court.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes. So let them give the statement of account.

RAJ SHAMANI: So we will come to that. But in your words, in simple words, summarize me. Give me a summary of series of events. What exactly happened and why are you in trouble? If I could just ask you to do it in like next four, five minutes.

You left the country. You didn’t intend to leave the country. You were just. You just left because there was a pre scheduled meeting. Then after a month you get to know that you’ve been suspended. Your passport has been suspended. Eight, nine days later it gets revoked. And since then you’re stuck here in middle of it. The extradition process gets started two times you get arrested. But you have been granted bail. The case gets to trial. Now CBI Ed, the government in India, everybody finds you guilty.

VIJAY MALLYA: People found me guilty.

RAJ SHAMANI: I mean that’s what they were. They’re calling it, right? They’re giving you names.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay.

RAJ SHAMANI: Everybody has given you a tag of. Let’s just not use the word guilty.

VIJAY MALLYA: CBI hasn’t taken place, doesn’t arise.

RAJ SHAMANI: Yeah. So CBI Ed, multiple courts, the government, people of India, everybody calls you fugitive fraud. Choreography, bunch of different things. Anchors, news media. Everybody calls you that, right? And you have been publicly, publicly on. Through your Twitter on multiple occasions you have been saying that hey, I want to pay the money. I want to pay the money. I really want banks to listen to me. And you have been very clear about it.

There have been multiple attempts from your side. And again and again authorities commenting that though there has been an attempt from your side, but the effectiveness of it needs to be questioned. The seriousness of it needs to be questioned.

VIJAY MALLYA: Right?

RAJ SHAMANI: This is what the case is. But in all in all, in summary, people call you chore. People call you fugitive. People call you fraud. Now explain me in summary, what is your side of story? We have gone through the whole thing. But I want to understand just in short brief, the way I explain right.

The Money Recovery Argument

VIJAY MALLYA: Now, what is the root cause for all this money? There is no other criminal allegation against me. It’s all about money, right? I showed you the debt Recovery certificate amount 6203 crores. I have shown you the Ministry of Finance report 14,100 recovered. The question to be determined now is has the money been recovered or not? Once the money has been fully recovered, including interest, right. The root cause is taken care of.

RAJ SHAMANI: No, the root cause is intentional.

VIJAY MALLYA: Sorry.

RAJ SHAMANI: The root cause is intention. Root cause is not money and recovery of the money, it started like that. The root cause of your case is intention. You had the money and you still didn’t pay. That is what we’re fighting. That is what everybody thinks that you. That’s why if I. There’s a problem.

VIJAY MALLYA: Answer the question. What was the share values then and what are they at the time of recovery? You’ll get your answer. The share value went up tremendously. Therefore they could recover two and a half times the debt back in 2016. The values of all the securities were barely would cover the debt recovery certificates. So there was a huge appreciation in the value of my shares held.

So it’s fine. The root cause and cause or loss to public to the common man Indian taxpayer is the money which has been more than recovered, right? Fine. I’m ready to face trial for intention. So if they want to convict me for bad intention, I’ll fight it. Win or lose, I’ll fight it.

RAJ SHAMANI: But you have a problem with they calling you chore because you’ve repaid the money?

VIJAY MALLYA: Yeah. Well, I’m probably the only chore who’s been called chore after repaying two and a half times. But it’s okay. I mean it’s part of life.

Karnataka High Court Petition

RAJ SHAMANI: You also filed a petition in Karnataka High Court, right? What’s happening there?

VIJAY MALLYA: I don’t know. That petition, as I told you, was simply to direct the banks to provide a statement of account, which once again I find exceptionally strange. I mean, this is probably the only example globally where banks do not render a statement of account.

RAJ SHAMANI: But if you say that you’ve recovered everything and if banks provide you the statement, would you be open for an independent audit?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course. Anytime.

RAJ SHAMANI: I’m open for you now on all your financial transactions.

VIJAY MALLYA: No problem.

RAJ SHAMANI: There’s nothing to be hide.

VIJAY MALLYA: Zero. Nothing. Please, anybody can.

RAJ SHAMANI: There’s nothing to hide me.

VIJAY MALLYA: Nothing.

Impact of Leaving India

RAJ SHAMANI: Then if according to you, the case is this clean, okay. And the authorities are questioning it, the media is questioning it. Do you think you flying out of India just made your case worse?

VIJAY MALLYA: Maybe it did. But I flew out on a pre arranged commitment with no court directive as you seem to suggest that I must be there. I went to Geneva for a meeting. And then, you know, the media furor the broke out and the environment was too hot and too hostile and certainly not conducive for an immediate return.

Plus I needed to sell some securities to overseas business partners in order to generate more money to pay these banks which I’ve been trying to sort of repay since 2016. Maybe not in the quantum that finally has resulted. I mean the banks have got lucky, isn’t it? Getting 4100 crores because of the appreciation of my shares.

RAJ SHAMANI: 14,000.

VIJAY MALLYA: If I don’t want to say, I don’t want to comment on others. I might as well just focus on my own business. It’s not fair. I’m not the type of person who comments about other people.

RAJ SHAMANI: Do you think people would have still calling you like people would still call you fraud?

VIJAY MALLYA: If I have done whatever I could.

RAJ SHAMANI: If you would have stayed in India and cooperated with banks. Listen, people would not call you fraud.

VIJAY MALLYA: Fine. So people are abusing me. Maybe will continue to abuse me. There’s nothing I can do about it. That’s why I kept quiet for nine years.

Settlement Attempts

RAJ SHAMANI: Is there any proof where you requested banks that I want to settle way before all of this started?

VIJAY MALLYA: Of course there is proof.

RAJ SHAMANI: Can you give me?

VIJAY MALLYA: Sure. It’s part of Supreme Court record.

RAJ SHAMANI: How do we access it?

VIJAY MALLYA: I asked my lawyers to give you a copy. No problem at all. Easily done.

RAJ SHAMANI: Before 2016.

VIJAY MALLYA: Yes, absolutely.

Legacy and Conclusion

RAJ SHAMANI: How do you want to be remembered? How do you want Vijay Mallya to be remembered for?

VIJAY MALLYA: Hopefully for the good things that I might have done. Certainly not for being a chore.

RAJ SHAMANI: Perfect. All right.

VIJAY MALLYA: Okay.

RAJ SHAMANI: Thank you for doing this.

VIJAY MALLYA: You’re welcome.

RAJ SHAMANI: Thank you so much for walking us through every little detail of your case, your life and what’s going on. I just hope that whichever party is right wins. And people see it the way you want to deliver it. And people see through every little thing which they must have fed in a bad way or wrong way. I don’t know which side they will believe. I don’t know which side media will believe. I don’t know which side the authorities will believe. In, but I hope they do the right thing. So thank you so much for walking us through every little thing.

VIJAY MALLYA: Good. Thanks for being here.

RAJ SHAMANI: Thank you. Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. I take these kind of episodes with utmost responsibility. I’ll see you the next time. Until then, keep figuring out.

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