Here is the transcript and summary of J. Stuart Ablon’s talk titled “Rethinking Challenging Kids-Where There’s a Skill There’s a Way” at TEDxBeaconStreet conference.
Listen to the audio version here:
TRANSCRIPT:
Dr. Stuart Ablon – Director of the Think:Kids program
For the past 25 years or so, I have had the privilege of working with lots of different children, adolescents, their parents, their families, their teachers, their helpers of all different kinds, all around the issue of challenging behavior, which is a big issue, actually.
It’s probably the most frequent issue that we parents talk about in pediatrician’s offices and family doctor’s offices. It is certainly the biggest issue that teachers are concerned about. It’s the number one reason they get away from teaching the academic curriculum. It’s their number one cause of stress managing the classroom. It’s the number one cause of teacher dropout.
And interestingly, it’s also the number one cause of referrals for mental health services. So it’s a big, big issue. And I feel like I have learned a tremendous amount over the last 25 years from and with these children, their families, their caretakers, their helpers.
And what’s interesting is most of what I’ve learned during this time completely flies in the face of conventional wisdom, completely. And that’s what I want to talk to you all about.
And the reality is that most of what I’ve learned that flies in the face of conventional wisdom can be summed up in a pretty simple phrase, and this is it: Kids do well if they can, which has become the guiding philosophy of our work, the foundation of our work.
And when you look at it up here, you probably say to yourself, what’s so earth-shattering about that? And on its own, it may not seem particularly earth-shattering, but it actually is, and I want to explain why.
See, what “kids do well if they can” suggests is that if a kid could do well, he would do well.
And I’m sure that sounds like perfect common sense to everybody, because it is. And yet, it flies in the face of conventional wisdom, because the more conventional way of thinking when it comes to challenging behavior is not “kids do well if they can.” It sounds a lot more like “kids do well if they want to.”
And you see, if you believe kids do well if they want to and a kid’s not doing well, so for instance, they’re not behaving well, you believe kids do well if they want to, they’re not behaving well, well, then you’re going to assume the reason he’s not behaving well is because he doesn’t want to. And if he doesn’t want to, then what’s all of our jobs? To try to make him want to do well.
And while that probably seems like a very narrow, unpleasant, probably pretty ineffective role to play in the lives of these kids, the interesting thing about it is when you think about traditional discipline in our homes, traditional school discipline, discipline in society, it is all oriented around trying to make kids want to do well. Rewards, punishments, timeouts, detention, suspensions, expulsions, you name it, they are all aimed at trying to motivate people to do better, safe in the assumption that they’re not doing well because they don’t want to.
Well, you know what? I don’t buy it. What I’ve learned is it doesn’t make any sense. What I’ve learned is kids do well if they can. I believe kids do well if they can. I believe if a kid could do well, he would do well. And if he’s not doing well, you know what? Something has got to be standing in his way, and it cannot be as simple as he just doesn’t want to.
I also believe that it’s high time we learn from more than 50 years of research in the neurosciences that has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that conventional wisdom is wrong.
Now, there are countless examples in our history of where conventional wisdom sticks around a lot longer after it’s been disproven. You can go back to something like the world is flat, but you know what? We learned it was round, but nobody wanted to part with the idea that it was flat. I think we’re going to find the same thing about the notion that kids do well if they want to.
All of the research in the neurosciences for the past 50 years has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that challenging kids do not lack the will to behave well. They lack the skills to behave well.
Skills to behave well, what kind of skills am I talking about? I’m talking about skills like problem solving, like flexibility, like frustration tolerance. In other words, what all the research in the neurosciences has shown us is that kids who exhibit chronic challenging behavior, you know what? They have like a learning disability, except instead of areas like reading, math, and writing, this learning disability is in areas like problem solving, flexibility, frustration tolerance.
I think it’s actually a very accurate, apt, and powerful analogy, and here’s why. I’m in my mid-40s. If we went back to when I was in elementary school, actually not far from here, if there was a child who was reading several grade levels behind his peers, back then, well-meaning, empathic, caring educators would not have said to themselves, huh, I wonder if he has a learning disability. I wonder if he’s got dyslexia. I wonder if he has a hard time phonetically decoding words.
No, actually 40 years ago, those folks would have said, I wonder if he is either dumb or lazy, and I know that there are people sitting here listening right now who can attest to the personal pain of that, to being the child in the classroom who, ironically, was trying harder than anybody else in that classroom to read and was completely misunderstood.
You know what’s interesting about that? Guess who wasn’t trying very hard in that classroom to read, the students to whom it came naturally. Guess who was trying harder than anybody else? The very kids that we used to think were lazy. What a terrible shame! Thank goodness we have come a long way since then, but not when it comes to kids with challenging behavior.
Here’s a little bit of a news flash. You know those good kids, those kids we say, you know, they’re so compliant, they do what we want. They’re such good kids. You know what? They get so many kudos for their great behavior, and they don’t even deserve them.
You know why they don’t deserve them? Because they’re not even trying very hard. It just comes naturally to them. Guess who’s trying inordinately hard to behave themselves during the course of the day? The very kids we’re trying to motivate to behave better.
A very wise man who has taught me a lot in his lifetime, he’s in his 98th year now, my grandfather, he’s taught me a lot. One of the things he taught me early on is he said, when you give a dog a name, eventually they will answer to it. And I have learned that if you treat kids like they are lazy, unmotivated, don’t care, aren’t trying hard enough over time, don’t be surprised when they start to look like, talk like, and act like they don’t care and aren’t trying hard enough.
And you know what? I don’t believe it. I believe kids do well if they can. I have yet to meet the kid that prefers doing poorly to doing well. I believe kids do well if they can.
Now, there may be some of you listening here who have two-year-olds. Two-year-olds are particularly poorly behaved. Now, is that because they’re evil beings? No. You might feel that way, but why are two-year-olds so poorly behaved? You know why? Because they stink at being flexible, they have horrible frustration tolerance, and extremely limited problem-solving skills.
But we don’t get too concerned because they’re two. And the good news is, when a lot of them get to be four, and six, and eight, and ten, and twelve, et cetera, they get better at all that stuff. But some don’t. And this is the interesting thing. Development happens at different rates.
So many of the kids I have worked with have incredible gifts where development has gone way ahead very quickly, but in the areas of problem-solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance, they may be delayed relative to their peers.
And I can tell you something, that when adults shift their thinking from kids do well if they want to, to kids do well if they can, amazing things happen. Amazing things happen. When you put yourself in the position of trying to figure out what a kid is struggling with and how you can help, as opposed to how you can try to get them to try harder to behave themselves well, amazing things happen.
Now, here’s the interesting thing about this learning disability of sorts that I’m referring to. It’s different in the sense that, you know what, you can’t set a kid up with a tutor to fix this kind of learning disability. An alternative reading program is going to help somebody who has a hard time phonetically decoding words. But you know what, skills like problem-solving, flexibility, frustration tolerance, those actually need to be taught in the actual situations when you need to use them.
In other words, you have to actually have situations where those neural networks in the brain are activated to practice those very skills. Now, anyone who’s spent a lot of time around kids with behavioral challenges, the bad news is you’ve got a lot of problems all throughout the course of the day.
Now, here’s some good news. They’re predictable problems, believe it or not. For the parents listening, you know, these are getting up in the morning and out the door to school on time. This is what to wear and what to eat and how much screen time you’re allowed and curfew and number one source of meltdowns across North America anyways, homework. There’s going to bed. There’s all kinds of predictable problems.
And there’s a list of predictable problems in classrooms and other settings as well. So the good news is that those are predictable. And I believe some even better news is you know what that list of problems is? It’s not just a list of problems. It’s a list of opportunities lying in wait.
What are those opportunities for? Opportunities to practice problem solving with kids because that’s the only way they’re going to develop those skills. And what’s amazing is that we’ve been able to watch that when you teach adults to solve problems collaboratively with kids, there are dramatic results. And it’s actually not a terribly complicated process.
But in homes, in schools, in treatment facilities, in correctional facilities, even with police forces, amazing things happen when adults shift from kids do well if they want to, to kids do well if they can. So this is a deficit of skill, not will, so we’ve got to help them build those skills.
And how are we going to do that? By collaborating with them to solve problems so that they can build those skills. That’s a pretty simple process. In essence, it’s using a good deal of empathy to identify what a kid’s concern is about a problem. It’s then sharing your concern about that problem, not your solution, but your concern. And then it’s inviting the child to collaborate with you to brainstorm solutions that are mutually satisfactory.
And based into those simple ingredients is a ton of practice in problem solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance. And it’s a process that can be used with little kids over little problems, big kids, big problems, you name it.
So I thought I would just give a very quick example of what that might look like. So I’ll use the example of — the first example I gave, a common problem, which is everybody in a household getting up, getting dressed, getting breakfast, packing their stuff, etc., and getting off to school and work on time. And if that doesn’t go well, that’s a bad start to the day for all involved.
So what does this process look like, collaborative problem solving? Well, the first thing is it’s predictable. So the last time you want to solve a predictable problem is right when the problem’s happening. You want to do that proactively.
So it looks like this. First, a good deal of empathy to clarify the kid’s concern. Hey, you know what we’ve noticed? We’ve noticed that the mornings have been pretty tough. And when we’re asking you to get dressed in the morning, sometimes you’re not getting dressed. Don’t worry. You’re not in trouble. What’s going on? What’s up?
I don’t know. Well, think about it for a second. I mean, do you think maybe you’re not so wild about going to school? No? So you’re okay about going to school? I like school. Huh. Okay. An eight-year-old who likes school. Right?
So what else could be getting in the way? Is it something about getting dressed? No? Huh. Well, because sometimes when we’re waiting downstairs with your sister and we’re all ready to go, we come upstairs and you were supposed to be getting dressed, and we just see you sitting next to your clothes.
So what do you think it could be? I don’t want to be last. Oh, you don’t want to be last? So like it’s a race or something, you think? No. So it’s not a race. Well, why would you not want to be last then? Because I don’t want to be upstairs alone. You don’t want to be upstairs alone. How come? I don’t know.
Do you get like nervous or something? Maybe. Huh. So you don’t want to be left alone upstairs if everybody else is downstairs, you might get a little bit nervous. Does that sound right? I noticed all we did was ask some questions, we took some guesses, we provided some reassurance that we were really genuinely interested, and we reflected what we’ve heard.
And now we know the kid’s concern, and now it’s time to put our concern on the table. And what’s that going to look like? Not our solution. It’s going to look like putting our concern on the table. Hey, you know what?
We’re just worried about everybody getting out the door on time in the morning, so we start the morning off okay, and everybody gets to work and school on time.
Here comes the third ingredient, don’t solve the problem for the kid. So, you know what, I bet there’s something we can do so that you’re not having to be upstairs alone, which makes you sort of nervous, but we can all still get out the door on time and start the morning okay.
And then one of the hardest things for us adults to do, bite our tongue. You got any ideas? And let the kid take first crack at it. And in the example that I’m giving you, well, the kid’s first idea was, well, you could wait upstairs while I get dressed. And mom said, well, I could do that, but then you’d have to get dressed quickly enough because I’ve got to get downstairs and start making lunches and stuff like that, so I’m worried that if you don’t do it quickly, I’m going to have to go downstairs.
And then what does the kid say? How about if I take my clothes downstairs and get dressed downstairs? Great idea. Who wins? Everybody. Who loses? Nobody. Problem solved. Challenging behavior reduced. Morning starting off better. Helping relationship enhanced. And skills practiced and trained.
Notice this was a trial in problem solving and flexibility and frustration tolerance, and one of the coolest things about this is, not just for the child. Guess who else is practicing problem solving, flexibility, frustration tolerance? The adult as well.
Now we have found that that kind of a process is a necessity, a lifesaver when it comes to kids who really struggle with problem solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance. But we’ve found incredible benefits in all kinds of other places, like workplaces, like marriages, partnerships, you name it, because you know what’s really fascinating? Most of the kids out in the world, they actually grow up possessing enough flexibility, frustration tolerance, and problem solving skills so that when there are problems with adults, and we adults in essence try to impose our will upon the kids and tell them what the solution’s going to be, they’ve got the skills to be able to handle it.
And you know, there’s a lot of talk out there these days about trying to prepare the next generation of adults with future ready skills, 21st century skills, which looks like a list about problem solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance, and yet we don’t actually ask kids to practice those skills very much. We hope they develop them.
So this process, this simple process of collaborative problem solving that demonstrates incredible effectiveness across all kinds of different settings can be used with regular old kids all the time.
And I got to say that in my experience, I think a lot of kids who have the skills are really just waiting to grow up to become adults so that they can impose their will on other people. It’s sad, but it’s true, and if you think of any day in time in our world, right here you’ll see lots of examples of problems being resolved via might makes right.
On the world stage especially, it’s extremely rare that you actually see examples of adults coming to mutually satisfactory solutions to problems. Why is that? I hate to say it, I’m a little pessimistic. I don’t think we adults are so wonderful at emphasizing with each other. I don’t think we’re great at taking each other’s perspectives into account.
I don’t think we’re great at arriving at win-win solutions to problems, and I’m not surprised because I don’t think we get a whole lot of practice. And you know what? I think it’s endlessly exciting to imagine a world where one day the next generation of adults might be more skilled at arriving at mutually satisfactory solutions to problems than simply lining up and figuring out who’s bigger and stronger because that person’s concerns are going to carry the day.
And you know what? I believe that we can teach the next generation of adults to do just that. And I am thankful to the challenging kids that I’ve worked with over the years who’ve shown us the necessity of solving problems in collaborative ways, and I think we can learn from them. I believe we can teach the next generation of adults those skills.
I believe that challenging kids deserve the same humane, compassionate, and effective approaches as kids with other recognized learning disabilities. And why do I believe that? I believe that because I believe kids do well if they can. I believe if a kid could do well, he would do well. I believe if he’s not doing well, it cannot simply be as simple as he just doesn’t want to because I believe all kids want to do well.
I believe if a kid’s not doing well, it’s about skill, not will. And I believe that where there’s a skill, there’s a way. I believe that kids do well if they can, and I hope you will too. Thank you very much.
Want a summary of this TEDx Talk by J. Stuart Ablon? Here it is.
Summary:
In his TEDx talk titled “Rethinking Challenging Kids – Where There’s a Skill There’s a Way,” J. Stuart Ablon challenges conventional thinking surrounding challenging behavior in children. With over 25 years of experience working with various children and families, he addresses the prevalent issue of challenging behavior and its impact on families, teachers, and mental health services. Ablon asserts that the most common belief, that children misbehave because they don’t want to behave, is flawed, and introduces an alternative perspective: “Kids do well if they can.”
Ablon’s approach is rooted in neuroscience research spanning half a century, revealing that challenging behavior arises not from a lack of desire but from a lack of essential skills such as problem-solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance. He likens this learning deficit to other learning disabilities, underscoring that children who appear “lazy” or “unmotivated” are often those trying the hardest but lacking the necessary skills to manage their behavior effectively.
The speaker advocates for a collaborative problem-solving methodology, which involves empathetic discussions to understand children’s concerns and jointly find solutions. This proactive approach allows kids to develop crucial skills by practically applying problem-solving, flexibility, and frustration tolerance in various situations.
Ablon highlights the need to shift from the traditional mindset of “kids do well if they want to” to the more progressive “kids do well if they can.” He emphasizes that this shift not only benefits children struggling with challenging behavior but also fosters improved relationships and problem-solving abilities among adults in diverse contexts.
The speaker concludes by underscoring the importance of imparting collaborative problem-solving skills to the next generation of adults. He envisions a future where adults approach problem-solving cooperatively rather than engaging in power struggles. Ablon believes that all children, even those exhibiting challenging behavior, deserve compassionate and effective support. Ultimately, he suggests that building necessary skills is the key to empowering children to succeed.
In summary, J. Stuart Ablon’s TEDx talk challenges traditional perspectives on challenging behavior, asserting that children’s struggles stem from a lack of essential skills rather than a lack of desire. His call to embrace collaborative problem-solving and prioritize skill development not only benefits children but also transforms the way society approaches problem-solving altogether.
For Further Reading:
Child Temperament: How We Start to Become Ourselves – David C Rettew (Transcript)
Transcript: How to Meet Your Child’s Difficult Behavior With Compassion (Yvonne Newbold)
School Suspensions Are an Adult Behavior: Rosemarie Allen at TEDxMileHigh (Transcript)
Transcript: Robert Sapolsky on Behavioral Evolution at Stanford
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