Transcript: Sam Shamoun’s Interview on PBD Podcast

So to say he’s two persons is blasphemy. So they were accused of holding to the two person theory of Christ, which is not true.

Religious Background

So that’s my background. And I don’t know if you come from that background. Typically, if you’re from that background, you’ll be baptized as an infant. But even Presbyterians baptize infants, but for a different reason.

So not to bog you with the details, in the Assyrian Church, water baptism is the means by which the Spirit comes on you, makes you one with Christ, so that you’re already part of Christ’s body. So he regenerates you, he makes you alive, unites you to Christ.

Presbyterians believe that water baptism is the sign that makes you a member of the covenant community, the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. But it doesn’t regenerate you. It doesn’t make you one with Christ. That’s something you must do later on. So there are some differences.

So I was baptized the Syrian Church of the East. But my parents never told me about Christianity. I didn’t learn about Christianity from my parents. Never told me who Jesus was, what the Bible is. I remember going to church.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You didn’t go to church?

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, they would take me to church, but I didn’t know what we’re doing. Like once a week, maybe once every couple of weeks. You know, Christmas. I had no idea. None whatsoever.

A Nine-Year-Old Evangelist

But my introduction to Christianity came from a nine year old Assyrian boy named Raymond Malko from Lebanon. He preached to me the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Chicago. Yep. At nine he was nine years old.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How old are you?

SAM SHAMOUN: Six and a half.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s nine. You’re six and a half?

SAM SHAMOUN: Yes. His grandmother was a godly, saintly woman. She was from a Catholic background. But his uncles on his mother’s side, they were taught Baptist theology. So if you’re familiar with what they call the independent fundamental, see, I’m giving you too many, like denominations, but it is what it is.

There are a lot of denominations and the Independent Fundamental Baptist denomination believed that you have to go soul winning, win souls for Christ. So you got to go knock on doors and lead them into the sinner’s prayer. So his uncles taught him that theology. So he would go soul winning. So he found this soul and for the first couple weeks I just ignored him. I thought he was crazy.

The Moment That Changed Everything

But then one day he got my attention because he said, Jesus Christ, and I’m giving you the gist. Remember, I’m the six and a half. I’m 53, you know, and it’s kind of sad, you guys are younger than me. That scare me. And better looking and healthier. Lord, I pray for that glorified body sooner than later.

So he told me Jesus Christ is the son of God. See, if I talk about the story, you know, I get a little emotional. So, and he told me that he loved me so much he died for me. That rocked me at six and a half to know someone would love me that much to die for me.

So he taught me the sinner’s prayer. Sinner’s prayer is, you know, you say, “Lord Jesus, I’m a sinner come into my heart.” Now being a kid, I thought I had to recite that prayer word for word because we take everything literally, right? And he told me do it at night. So I took him literally. I had to wait till night.

So I was afraid I was going to forget the prayer and I kept reciting it and night came and I forgot it. But I remember that night and I remember that I was in tears. My mom was next to me and I told her, I remember waking her up saying, can you tell me how to invite Jesus? She thought I was crazy. What are you talking about?

But I remember crying out to him and I said, “Jesus, I don’t know how to invite you in, but I want you in my life.”

Street Evangelism at Six

So six and a half, he would do street evangelism. There are people from the neighborhood, Chicago, Foster and Clark Street. There are people who are listening who are going to remember this. He actually would lead me and he would preach and we’d gather crowds. A nine year old, because it’s shocking, I mean a nine year old that he’d preach fire and brimstone and hell. And I was just a sidekick, I didn’t know anything.

The Dark Years

Now you fast forward. He had to relocate and I lost my elder brother because he was the one who held me accountable. Sadly, my teenage years, things happened. Broken family, dad left. I was very close to my uncle and he died of cancer in about, I believe it was 1982. So he was closer to me than my father.

So I just gave up on everything and I started doing things I shouldn’t have done. You know, teenage, you go into drinking and you know, things that we’re not proud of. But I had a huge emptiness in my heart because I’ve always suffered with two things in my life. And these are symptoms of pride. If you actually break it down, symptoms of pride.

But nonetheless, I suffered from low self esteem and body dysmorphia, which is still two demons that I have to slay to this day. And because I had this low self esteem and really, really just body shamed myself, I felt more depressed.

The Bodybuilding Years

So I thought the solution would be bodybuilding. Why? Because my older brother started bodybuilding. And if you know about bodybuilding, you probably have heard of Sergio Olivia.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Of course, he was a Chicago cop, but he also had a gym.

SAM SHAMOUN: He’s got a son as well right now that completes incredible physique.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Oh really?

SAM SHAMOUN: His son makes his power. He was known for one of the greatest poses of all time.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: If you go to images, Sergio Olivia, his forearms, he pose the one, the fourth picture, that one right there. Jeez, look at that.

SAM SHAMOUN: You should see a son. It makes his father look like another.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you pull up his son’s picture as well? His Son is Vinnie. You won’t even believe it.

Sam Shamoun’s Journey from Bodybuilding to Faith

SAM SHAMOUN: Look at his son. That’s his. Look at that. That’s a son to the right. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my damn. He blows body. Yeah. So Chicago. So I said, maybe, you know what? Let me try bodybuilding.

Now, another thing is one of the biggest influences on my life wasn’t a religious figure—was Bruce Lee. I still love Bruce Lee. I just can’t get over this guy. And when I hear people saying, “Oh, he was an actor,” it’s us. That gets me angry. What are you talking about? Man in the street fight will gouge your eyes out. You know, the myth of Bruce Lee.

So I thought, in my very sick mind, maybe I can get into kickboxing and bodybuilding and become the first Assyrian movie star. Hey, if Bruce Lee did it, Arnold Schwarzenegger did it, why not me? Well, I realized the more I worked out, the more miserable I became. So there was a time in which I peaked. I was, like, around 200. And I’m not trying to talk about, you know, I don’t want people thinking. Just to give you an idea what God is doing. He’s allowing me to attain goals to see how empty I’ll be.

So at one time, I got to about 220 pounds of solid muscle, no fat on me. And I was miserable. I was depressed. So now I realized, you know what? Maybe I should try God. Now, this is around maybe like, close to 18. I don’t even know the year because I was born ’72. And I try to remember the exact year, but it’s in the ’90s.

Discovering Islam Through the Nation of Islam

As I’m thinking about God, I used to be the—if you ever valet your car, you have valet parking? Well, in Chicago, there was a restaurant called Bub City. It was in a very shadier side of Chicago, Cabrini Green. So they had a parking lot, and I was the security guy. Security dude, right? And the—they call him the term I’m looking for—the guy who gives you the ticket. I forgot the name for it. His name was Hal. And he kept saying, “Praise be to Almighty Allah.”

Now, remember, although my family’s from the Middle East, they never mentioned Islam once to me. So I have no idea what Islam is or who Muslims are. So he keeps saying, “Almighty Allah.” Now, you know we speak Assyrian, we say Allah. So he got me interested. So I said, “Can I ask you a question? How do you know this term?”

So he started talking about Minister Louis Farrakhan. I have no idea what this guy’s talking about. Then he says, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the Prophet Muhammad, and then he mentions Master Farad Muhammad. Now I’m thinking it’s the same Muhammad. Turns out he’s a member of the Nation of Islam. Nation of Islam, who’s now the leader is still alive. Louis Farrakhan hasn’t passed away. There he goes.

One of the most powerful, charismatic speakers. This man will captivate you. And he does it from memory. He doesn’t have notes in front of him. He’ll quote the Bible, Quran from memory. This man is amazing in his recall and his speech so captivating. And he mentioned the Quran. So I asked, “Could you give me a copy?”

Reading the Quran and Finding Jesus

Well, I read the Quran and I was flabbergasted because here’s a book that mentions the major prophets of the Bible and Jesus, but it gives a different spin on it. So I got really confused. So in the back of the book you have like, you know, table of contents—not table, I’m sorry—index of names. So I went look for Jesus in every place that Jesus showed up in the Quran.

And I believe the translation was Abdullah Yusuf Ali at that time was the most popular Quran translation. Now it’s obsolete. But in the ’90s, this was the translation that Muslims would give out. And he’s got copious notes, right? To indoctrinate you, man. I ate it up.

I was shocked to find Jesus in the Quran. And this is one thing that non-Muslims, when they encounter Islam, the shock effect, because they think Muslims are the other side, they’re all evil, they’re terrorists. And then they find out that they have more in common with Christianity than even Judaism does. This is a fact. Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism because Islam recognizes Jesus. It says he’s the Messiah born of the virgin.

In fact, the Quran says that the greatest woman God created is Mary and she’s the only woman mentioned by name in the entire Quran. Women aren’t mentioned. So if we’re looking at his mom, not—

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Not even the Prophet’s mom.

SAM SHAMOUN: No. Muhammad’s parents, you don’t even know whose parents are. You don’t even know his historical context. If you just go with the Quran, it doesn’t even situate the crown for you. You don’t know is what century is this—all you know? It’s in Arabic. But when was it sent down? You need external sources.

Even when Muhammad was born, you need external sources because Muhammad is mentioned by name four times. But even then you can make a case that it’s not really the name of a prophet, but it’s a descriptive noun meaning “the praised one.” And some people actually postulate that what you have in the Quran is actually Christian hymns that were then bastardized into Arabic, originally in Syriac. A lot of theories. Some of the theories are strong.

Returning to the New Testament

So again, as I read the Quran, I got baffled. But here’s where training your children and the way to go pays dividends. Because of that young boy teaching me the Christian faith, planting seeds in my heart. My reaction was to go back to the New Testament. I go, “Wait, let me read the New Testament.”

And I remember reading it, man. I fell in love with Jesus all over again. In fact, I missed him. You know, I missed them. I’m not supposed to cry. I’m Jiru. You know that, right? The warriors. Jesus makes even the toughest of men cry like babies because he’s infinitely beautiful and we are infinitely less than filthy.

But as I read the New Testament, I fell in love with him all over again. There’s no one like Jesus. Even those who do not believe in religion, when they read, for example, the Sermon of the Mount, they’re in awe of his message. They even realized this is not human. This is heavenly. The way he teaches about to treat your enemies. And this is something out of this world. And it is. It’s not from this world. It’s from a higher realm, Heaven. I fell in love with him.

The Malcolm X Influence

But then I had a problem. What do I do with Muhammad? Because I was convinced Muhammad was a true prophet, because he was sincere. They gave me a biography because then I forgot to add the details. Then I discovered Malcolm X. I forgot to mention that because Malcolm X is a big figure in the Nation. Yes, he was the one who pretty much made the Nation of Islam. But then he realized that Elijah Muhammad, who was the man who claimed that Master Farad Muhammad sent him.

So there was a man named Master Farad Muhammad. And he went to Elijah, whose name was Elijah Poole in Michigan. And he said, pretty much, “I want to point you as the prophet to liberate my people.” And this theology teaches that Allah is a black man. So it’s not Islamic. You go to predominant Muslim country that practices, you tell them Allah is a black man. Your body’s going to be over here and your head will be over there on a trophy. So this is—but I didn’t know.

So I started reading Malcolm X. And then Alex Haley is Autobiography by Alex Haley. I didn’t understand a lot of the code terms because he kept saying them T H E M in the book. Then I realized there was an abbreviation for the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. But his story captivated me because supposedly on a trip to Mecca, he discovered true Islam. And I thought, “Man, if Islam could do for this guy, or if Islam could do for me what it did for this guy, maybe Islam is the solution.”

But that’s when I went back to the New Testament. The Lord saved me, but I had read a sanitized biography of Muhammad that made him look very, very devout, sincere. And so I didn’t know what to do with him, because if he’s sincere and he’s willing to suffer for his claims, then obviously he’s not lying. But what he says about Jesus contradicts what the New Testament says. How do I reconcile that?

Recognizing the Differences Between Christianity and Islam

It took me maybe two years to finally—and I know it’s not a politically correct message, but it is what it is. That’s why Islam is not Christianity. Christianity is not Islam. We’re not the same. We have differences. Islam thinks that Christianity has been perverted, corrupted. The New Testament has been changed. We believe that there are many antichrists who come into the world. I know Muslims will get offended, but it is what it is.

Jesus in John 14:6 explicitly says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except through me.” He didn’t say, “I’m one of many ways. I point you to the life and I can bring you to the Father. Among many.” He goes, “No, I am the truth, the life.”

Now, even from an Islamic perspective, no prophet can say he’s the truth, the light. Because Islam recognizes those titles as belonging only to the God of Islam, which they believe is the God of Imran. So for Jesus to say he’s the truth, he just claimed to be more than a man. From an Islamic perspective, to say you’re the life, you just claim to be more than a man. And he says, “You want to get to the Father, you want to be with me, you want to dwell with me, you better come to me and accept me as I am.”

But the Jesus of the New Testament, who’s the Christ of history, is not a Muslim prophet. His name is not Isa IBN Maryam. He did not announce the coming of Ahmed because the Quran says in chapter 61, verse 6 that the good news of Jesus is that he announced the coming of a messenger after him named Ahmad. That’s in 61, verse 6 of the Quran. You guys can see it. So if you ask the Muslim, “What is the gospel of Christ?” “Oh, he predicted the coming of Muhammad.” That’s 61, verse six, if you want to see it.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Rob, can you pull it up 61, verse 6 in the Quran.

The Quran’s Claims About Jesus and Allah

There you go. And remember when Jesus son of Mary said, “O children of Israel, I am truly Allah’s messenger to you, confirming the Torah which came before me and giving good news of a messenger after me whose name will be Ahmad.” That’s the good news of Islam. He prepared you for Muhammad because Ahmad is not the name for Muhammad. Right? That’s what they tell you. So that’s their good news.

That’s not the Jesus of history. The Jesus of history claims to be the very God in such a way that even the Quran acknowledges no man can claim the titles he claimed. When I said that one of the names of Allah is the truth, Al Haq, and he is the life and he’s also the first and the last. Well, if you go to chapter 22, verse 6 to 7, there you’re going to see the names of Allah pretty much plagiarized from what Jesus said prior to the Quran.

You think if I didn’t tell you this is Allah speaking, you think that you’re reading the Gospel of John? Because what is said about God here, the Allah of Islam, is exactly parroted from what Jesus says in the Gospel of John, which comes 600 years earlier.

Here you’ll see it. So chapter 22, verse 6 to 7, says, “That is because Allah is the truth, Al Haqq.” That’s one of the names of Allah. “And because he gives life to the dead and because he is over all things competent.”

Now here’s an interesting part in verse seven. “And that the hour is coming, no doubt about it, that Allah will resurrect those in the grave.” See, only Allah gives life and resurrects the dead. And he’s the truth.

Jesus Claims the Same Attributes as Allah

Well, if I go to the Gospel of John, chapter five, Jesus said all those things, but he applied it to himself. If you open up John chapter five, you’re going to have to open up the entire chapter because we’re going to look at verse 21. So now watch here. Now watch Jesus say what the Quran says of Allah. But he says it 600 years before Muhammad showed up. So who’s plagiarizing who? It’s not Jesus plagiarizing Allah.

Now watch here. If he goes to John 5, verse 21. Yeah, we’re going to open up the entire chapter. If you can. If you go to BibleGateway.com you’re going to find Bibles galore.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You mean I’m moving faster than the Great Rob? What happened? Ra brother.

SAM SHAMOUN: So you can’t keep up with the Assyrians, especially if he’s Jidu, you know. Now if you open up John 5, just put John 5, it’s going to open up. Now remember what Allah said of Allah. He’s the truth. He gives life.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yes.

SAM SHAMOUN: And then the hour is coming where he will raise the dead. John 5:21. Watch here. Let’s go here. 21. Now watch right in the middle. “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.” So Father and Son both give life.

But in 25, if you watch verse 25, “Verily truly, I tell you,” now this translation, NIV says “a time.” The literal translation is “an hour is coming.” If you read it, it’s “an hour.” Because NIV is more of a paraphrase. So some Bibles do not translate literally because in translating literally you lose meaning. So they have to paraphrase. So this is a paraphrase.

In fact, we Assyrians can relate. If I say, if you translate in English, I say “what the hell are you talking about?” Yeah, right. Yeah. That’s how it is with languages. So sometimes you can’t translate literally. You got to translate meaning, but literally it says “very truly. I tell you an hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God,” not Allah, “the Son of God. And those who hear will live.”

Now 28, 29 says something amazing because the Quran says the hour is coming. Have no doubt about it. Well, Allah will raise them from their graves. But who does that? According to our Bible? “Do not be amazed at this. For a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.” Whose voice? The Son of God.

So if I were to compare what Jesus says of himself with what said about Allah, clearly Jesus claimed to be God because the things Jesus says is ascribed to the Islamic deity, not to a prophet. So a prophet cannot speak this way if Islam is true. So what did they tell you? Your Bible’s corrupt.

Jesus as “The Way, The Truth, and The Life”

Another passage. You brought it up. John 14:6. Right, we read that. I’m sorry. Notice there he says “I am the way and the truth,” one of the names of Allah, “and the life.” So clearly the Jesus of history is not Isa. He did not announce coming Muhammad.

So from a Christian perspective, as offensive as it may be, facts are facts. If we all believe the same thing, we’d be the same religion. According to the New Testament, it’s going to hurt people. Muhammad is an antichrist. That’s the New Testament teaching.

Because what is the criteria for an Antichrist? First John, chapter two, 22-23 tells you who’s the Antichrist? He who denies the Father and the Son. Islam says Allah is not a father and Jesus is definitely not his son.

In fact, in chapter nine of the Quran, verse 30, you know what it says. “And the Jews say, Uzair is the son of Allah.” To this day, scholars are baffled. Who is this Uzair and what Jew said it? Now, some translations will tell you that Uzair is Ezra, the prophet, but the context is the call to jihad.

The Different Sects of Islam

A lot of people don’t know that one of the last chapters before Muhammad died. Now, again, we’re basing this on the Muslim sources. There are people who question the Muslim sources. They say, well, yeah, because Muslims, they’re not in Muslim countries. I can’t. But you’ll have Muslim academics who will tell you, yeah, these are later traditions. They’re embellished. And not all Muslims believe in what they call the Hadith.

Now, the largest group of Muslims identify Sunni. In fact, you had two of them debating when they were here. They would be Sunni Muslims. One of them was a Salafi. So though they are Sunni, Daniel or Jacob, what was his name? Daniel. The other guy, Jake. Daniel Haqiqatjou and Jake Brancatella. Yeah, Jake. I don’t know if it’s short for Jacob.

Now, he’s a Salafi. There are differences among them. And though they belong, and again, I’m not saying these differences prove Islam is false because we got differences among Christians. Right? I mean, fair is fair. Islam is not monolithic. Neither is Christianity. Right. There are flavors of Christianity.

But point being, the largest group of Muslims would identify as Sunni. But in that Sunni branch, you have people called Salafis. They have a view of Allah that the other Sunnis do not share. We can get into that. But so not all Muslims believe in the Hadith, though it’s the largest sect. They would follow what they call the Hadith or the Sunnah.

You have Shia. They have their own traditions. They don’t accept. In fact, if you come from Iran, there’s a Shia majority, right?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah.

SAM SHAMOUN: So they would not accept the traditions of Daniel Haqiqatjou. So when they quote Bukhari, they reject it. They go, “We don’t follow Bukhari. We have,” you know, Kafi, they have their own traditions. And then there are a group of Muslims who only follow the Quran. They’re called Quran only Muslims.

So just like Christianity have a variety. So if I’m dealing with a Muslim, I first ask them, what are you? So I can know how to address them. I can’t address them the same because, you know, you date Muslims. “Well, I don’t accept the Hadith. I don’t care what Bukhari says. I don’t care what Muslim says.” So I have to now stick with the Quran and show them why there are holes in the narrative.

The Names of Allah and Jesus’ Claims

And the point I’m getting at is that in Islamic theology, specifically Sunni, there are certain attributes, names of Allah that no creature can ascribe to themselves. Some of the names I just showed you, but Jesus ascribed to himself. So now we got a problem.

In chapter nine of the Quran, according to the Sunni tradition, this is one of the last chapters Muhammad gave before he died. These are his final marching orders. And in his final marching orders, if you want to look at it, chapter nine, it starts at 28 all the way to 33. This is again according to the Sunni narrative.

Now, if you accept the Sunni narrative, then this is one of the last surahs. But if you are one of those Muslims who say no, these are just later embellishments, well, then you have a hard time because you can’t situate the Quran. How do you know when the Quran was written? It doesn’t tell you. It doesn’t even give you a chronology.

The Meccan and Medinan Periods

For example, if you go to Sunni tradition, there are two periods in the compilation of the Quran. There’s what’s called the Meccan period and the Medinan period. Mecca, Madani, again, based on the Islamic narrative. For the first 13 years, Muhammad preached in Mecca. The tone of those chapters that are attributed to that period, very different. “To you be your religion, to me, my religion.” Because he’s outnumbered, he doesn’t have control. And if he does try to make an attack, they’ll squash him.

So when you read those chapters from that period, if we take the traditional Sunni narrative, very tolerant, but let’s get along, you know, okay, hey, you don’t believe my religion, that’s fine. You know, “To you, your religion, to me, my religion.” That’s like chapter 109 of the Quran says it, you know, “To you, your religion, to me, my religion.” That’s what they’ll often quote. But they quote in the context when they’re outnumbered.

Then you have what’s called the Medinan period, the period where he now goes to Medina and he becomes head of state. The tone changes. It goes from “To you, your religion, to me, my religion.” Then you enter Medina, okay? Now since they oppressed you, you can fight back, self defense.

Then the final stage is chapter nine. Now he’s amassed a large number of soldiers according to the narrative, right? One of the greatest scholars, in my opinion, questioning the narrative. You had him. He debated Robert Spencer. If you want what I consider to be one of the most knowledgeable Christians on the historical Muhammad as well as political Islam, you won’t get any better than Robert Spencer. So if you ever want to talk. Oh, he’s amazing, right? Interesting.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, he’s got a lot. He gets a lot of hate and he’s got a lot of controversy behind him. When I announced that I’m bringing him, they were furious about bringing Robert Spencer.

SAM SHAMOUN: He’s my estimation. You know how people say this guy’s the best and that’s an ego thing. May God crush our pride. But my estimation, I don’t think there’s someone more knowledgeable in political Islam and historical Muhammad than Robert Spencer. From a Christian perspective.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Interesting.

The Quran’s Call to Expand Islam

SAM SHAMOUN: He would be part of your, if you ever get an A team, he’d be part of it. Now, I mention him only because he would question these sources. But if you’re a Sunni, because now my audience is now the Sunni Muslim, like whoever it is, if it’s Daniel, according to the tradition chapter nine, one of the final marching orders, he’s amassed a large number of soldiers. Now he’s telling them go and expand Islam. It’s no longer defend yourself, it’s now go and expand Islam. Politically, economically, socially. That’s the concept of chapter 9, 28 to 33.

But now notice Muhammad has to give them a pretext to attack. Okay, why are we attacking these people? You’re going to see. It doesn’t say because they threatened you. This is the Islamic narrative. It’s because they believe differently from you, right? Black and white. You’re going to see it. So they don’t think I’m lying. And if they want to get the commentators, Ibn Kathir, we’re going to have a field day, brother. They can’t tell me it doesn’t mean this. Wait, wait. What did Ibn Kathir or Qurtubi say? Right, but here, chapter nine, 20 to 30. We’re going to read it.

Oh, you have believed. Now this translation says polytheist. But the term Mushrikoon, Mushrikeen, it’s much more broad than simply a polytheist. The term comes from shirk. What is shirk? According to the Quran, shirk is the one sin Allah will never forgive. But what is that? When you claim there are multiple Divinities, or Allah shares his glory or attributes or sovereignty with a creature or God has a son, you fall under that category.

So according to Islam, all of you are shirkers. You’re mushrik whether you like it or not. Why? Because if they ask you, do you believe Jesus is God’s son? Mushrik. You believe Jesus, God’s son? Mushrik. You believe he’s Lord? Mushrik. Now the Quran says to fight you. To the victor goes the spoils or you pay what’s called Jizya. We’re going to get there.

Understanding Shirk and the Kaaba

So all you believe or have believed, indeed, the polytheists are unclean. So let them not approach Masjid Al Haram. Now, without the traditions, you have no idea where this is. It’s the tradition that tells you this is the Kaaba and Mecca. But if you just went with this, you’ll have no idea where this is. What the heck is Masjid Al Haram? But this means Mecca, the Kaaba. Don’t let them approach after this. Their final year. What year? See, without the Islamic narrative, you don’t even know what year this is. This is two years before the death of Muhammad. Right, but I can’t tell. I mean, what year, buddy doesn’t tell me.

And if you fear poverty, now why is it saying fear poverty? Islamic narrative says that they would make pilgrimages to this day. The Muslims do it to circumambulate the Kaaba seven times, run between the two hills, Safa and Marwa, seven times, throw seven stones at Satan, which they claim was instituted by Abraham. But there’s no evidence for that. These were pagan practices.

So when the people would come, they’d barter, they would sell, they would trade. So it’s saying, well, if you fear by banishing them, if you fear by banishing them, you’re going to lose money. Don’t worry. Allah will enrich you from his bounty if he wills. Well, it’s, if he wills, we say inshallah. But here it’s, you know, if he wills. Now how will he enrich you? This is the question I want you to see. By having you fight the infidels and taking Jizya from them. That’s verse 29. It says it right there.

The Command to Fight Non-Believers

Fight those who do not believe in Allah. Does it say fight those who threaten you? Fight those who attacked you? Fight those who want to take your land? No, no. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the last day. Well, I don’t believe in the Allah of Islam. Now I know people say, well, it’s just the name. That’s not my debate. I have no problem using the term Allah. The Allah of the Quran is not the God of the Bible.

So different gods? Absolutely. Okay, but now you have to qualify that. Do you think the average Muslim even knows the differences? Probably not. Absolutely not. They don’t. They’re told that this God is the God of Abraham. They’re told Jesus is a mighty messenger. So you have to distinguish between what the source is saying, the person. Because if I interview an average Christian, how many of them know what the Trinity is? How many know that Jesus is the God man, that you must believe he’s God of man?

If I ask Christians, is Jesus a man in heaven or a spirit? I’ve done that. They’ll say, he’s a spirit. No, he’s not. The Bible says he’s a glorified man in heaven with a glorified physical body of flesh, and he’s going to come back in the flesh. So how many Christians know that they’re supposed to believe that? You’d be surprised. Ask Christians, say, hey, I understand. Yeah. So here, if you don’t have the same idea of Allah they do, that’s pretext to fight you and not to go you.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: When you say fight, is that fight to kill?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, it’s UFC.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, I want to make that clear, that you’re saying fight.

SAM SHAMOUN: Fight should be, they’re trying to kill you. UFC championship. What’s wrong with you?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, my bad.

SAM SHAMOUN: So we’re naked in you, bro.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah.

SAM SHAMOUN: Okay.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Please continue.

Islamic Paradise and the Last Day

SAM SHAMOUN: So, and the last thing. Now, real quick, let me describe Islamic last day, because I want to show the audience who don’t know Islam how graphic this is. The last day in Islam means if you pass the test, you will enter Jannah, you’ll enter paradise, you have maidens of pleasure. I can give you even reference. Very graphic. Chapter 78, 31, 33. It says that they have swelling breasts, breasts that don’t sag. And the Quran says, you’ll spend all eternity deflowering them, but you won’t harm them. And they’ll return when I say Quran.

Quran says you will have sex with them, but the hadith go graphic. You will be deflowering them, but you won’t hurt them. They’ll return virgin again. So this is the pleasures of paradise. And you’re going to have wine, and you’re going to have milk, and you’re going to have meat. And young boys serving you, youths of perpetual freshness. Now, why the hell do I need a young boy in paradise to serve me? Well, things to make you go. But that’s the last day. Oh, you brought it up, huh? See? Full breasted companions of equal age. Yeah, so that means you don’t need breast implants in Paradise. It’s free of charge. Yeah, perfect.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s impressive.

The Grounds for Fighting in Islam

SAM SHAMOUN: You see why they love us, don’t you? When we come here, we’re in. Go back to 30. Up to 30. So now why should you fight them? I’m sorry, 29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah or on the last day, who do not consider unlawful what Allah and his messenger have made unlawful. So if you don’t accept Muhammad’s restrictions, like don’t eat pig meat, grounds to fight you. Am I making it up? It’s right there.

Why do you fight them? Who do not consider unlawful what Allah and his messenger have made unlawful. So what you do not forbid that Muhammad has forbidden. You are now an enemy and need to be brought into submission. And who do not adopt the religion of truth. Now guess what that religion is. Buddhism. It’s Islam. So if you do not accept Islam, what must they do? Fight you?

Even those who are given the scripture meaning, even if they’re Jews and Christians. Many people may not know this, but those who are in the field will know. One of the titles given to Jews and Christians is Ahlul Kitab, the People of the Book. Why? Because the Quran assumes the same God that gave the Quran gave the scriptures to the Jews and Christians. Because it says he’s the God of Abraham. Right. And it says this is a religion of Abraham.

So even if you’re a Jew Christian, but you deny Muhammad or Allah said to the Muslims, fight them until they pay jizya. Why? Willingly? While they are humbled, as a sign of your humiliation. That’s how Allah will enrich you. Thank the Lord. There’s really no Islamic state that enforces this. Praise the Lord Jesus Christ. Right? I mean, if you ask me, is there an Islamic state? No, there isn’t. Are some countries more Islamic than others? Yes, but there is no truly Islamic state. Right. That implements what the Quran and the Sharia puts. But you understand, this is how Islam expanded.

Go find people where they’re at, invite them to Islam and if they accept, they’re safe. If not, take the jizya from them. And if not, kill them until the victor goes as foils.

The Claim About Ezra and Jesus

Another thing that’s related to Christ, why then should you fight Jews and Christians? Verse 30. The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah. But it’s not Ezra’s Uzair. They tell you it’s Ezra. But with that said, there’s not any shred of historical evidence that the Jews ever worshiped Ezra as the unique son of God. Doesn’t exist. So where does this come from? Well, the Muslims say, well there was a particular group at a particular time. But those are the Muslim sources. If you ask them, can you give me any pre-Islamic or sources besides Islam that there were Jews who worshiped Ezra or whoever? No, they can’t find it.

But now watch. The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah and the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. Now there they got us. If I ask you guys, do you believe Messiah is the son of Allah? Do you believe Jesus, son of God? Yes. It says for that reason they must fight you. It’s right there. The son of Mary. And they were not command. I’m sorry, you skipped to 31. That is what they say with their mouths. See, that’s something you just say for you made it up. Imitating the sayings of those who disbelieve before. May Allah destroy them.

How do you think Allah is going to destroy? He’s going to come down on a horse. Who do you think he’s going to use to destroy you? The jihadis. Am I making it up? It’s right there. Nope. This is the context of jihad. This is what Islam, this is Muhammad’s final marching orders whether you like it or not. If they become predominant majority and if they’re zealous now, thank God most Muslims are not. They have to do this.

Sam’s Knowledge of Scripture

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Sam, how many times have you read the Quran?

SAM SHAMOUN: I don’t know. Really. Maybe once or twice. I don’t know.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, stop it.

SAM SHAMOUN: No, I’m sorry.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I don’t literally read it. Maybe once or twice.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: And how do you remember everything?

SAM SHAMOUN: As I was trying said I think we said off there in the 90s I realized honestly when I would have a conversation, verses would pop in my head. So it’s not, I trained for it and I don’t want people to be impressed by it. Right. Don’t always it. No knowledge puffs up, love builds up. I got a lot of issues that I pray God will show me mercy on the day of judgment. But I just realized maybe it’s God’s way of gifting me.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How many times have you read the Bible?

SAM SHAMOUN: If I go back, I probably read it two or three times.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Two or three times.

SAM SHAMOUN: I don’t really read it all the way through. Like now it’s just like, you know, I’ll go through it, you know, maybe read a psalm here or there or if I’m researching. Yeah, it’s, it’s my guess, like, when they drop, really. I was dropped as a child, when I was one in my head. So maybe I triggered something. I don’t know. Maybe that’s how God does it. Right?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you a massive, because when I sat down with Charlie Kirk and we would talk to him off camera, he would say he studies three hours every day. No matter what he reads and studies three hours every day. Do you have a ritual of studying a lot every day? Do you read a lot every day?

SAM SHAMOUN: Not that way. What I do is I’m always on my blog writing posts for people if not doing livestreams. So I’m not studying. I’m writing to equip people with articles so they can use it in battle. Because I want to equip people. So, because, look, if the Lord tarries, I’m going to die.

Sam’s Spiritual Father

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So at six and a half, this nine year old comes to you at that time. At that time, what’s your relationship with your dad? At six and a half?

SAM SHAMOUN: My dad walked away when I was probably seven, shortly right after that.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So it’s right around that time that this is happening to you.

SAM SHAMOUN: Got it. Okay.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So that a massive impact on you? Huge. So is that a moment for you where your biological father walked out, but your spiritual father is going to be with you forever? Did that give you that peace as a young man?

SAM SHAMOUN: Raymond was young boy. Yeah, Raymond is pretty much my dad, even though he was 9. And his grandmother, my mother was a wonderful woman. She left a wonderful legacy, but she wasn’t educated in scriptures. But his grandmother was my spiritual mother.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Raymond’s grandmother.

SAM SHAMOUN: Raymond’s, yeah. Because his mother died when he was young, so his maternal grandmother raised him and his brother.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How much time did you spend with her?

SAM SHAMOUN: I think from six and a half to ten.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How often? Like every day?

SAM SHAMOUN: Every day we’d go. I’d hang out with him. Every day we’d go to the house, she would teach us prayers.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: She would. Or he would.

SAM SHAMOUN: She would. In fact, because of her impact, I still remember. Now, I know it’s part of the liturgy of the Assyrian Church, but I didn’t know that back then. She taught me this for some reason, those prayers, she taught me that.

She also taught me the Ave Maria, but in a different way from where, you know, like Bocelli says it, she taught it this way. Now, guys, I’m not a singer and I’m not going to give up my day job. So she taught it this way. So I remember that for some reason it stayed in my mind. Right. She was a woman, wonderful woman.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Six and a half years old. Was Raymond’s grandmother friends with your mother? No, they didn’t know each other?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, they were, they were in the neighborhood. So you know, you know how you meet people high and by, you know. But Chicago. Yeah, it wasn’t like, you know, oh, we’re cousin. No, just he was taught to go soul winning. So when he won me, he took me to his grandmother and she’d teach us prayers.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: And what was the denomination?

SAM SHAMOUN: She was Catholic. His uncle on his mother’s side became Baptist.

The Lost Years

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So later on, at 18 years old, when that security guard, the guy you’re working with at the valet at this Bob City when you work there, and he introduced you to the Nation of Islam and you know, Farrakhan and all these guys. At that time, would you say pre-meeting Kim, you’d consider yourself a Christian or you’re a lost teenager kind of going through?

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, I had pretty much turned my back.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: When you left at 10 years old.

SAM SHAMOUN: 1930, I was about 13. 13 when he, 10 he relocated. But yeah, it was, I think he was 10. He moved. Then I started slipping. But around 13, I was just gone. Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So 13 to 18, there’s nothing. No church, no mentor, no father figure, no nothing.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did you go to college? Are you a good student in school? What are you doing in school?

SAM SHAMOUN: I was such a good student, I got kicked out of high school 30 years. Yeah, in high school, yeah. Yep. Then I got a GED and never been to college, never been to seminary, never been to university.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was your, you know what, what class came easy to you? Are you a math guy? Are you an English guy? You history guy? Are you?

SAM SHAMOUN: I liked history, but not in school. I just hated being in school because of my body dysmorphia and low self-esteem. I couldn’t be around crowds.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Were you in gangs? Were you a troublemaker? Were you?

SAM SHAMOUN: I was with the gangs, but I wasn’t the tough guy. I mean, yeah, I hung out with like the Assyrian Kings in Chicago. Okay, Assyrian KINGS, right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So 18 years old, you meet this guy. Did you ever convert and become a Muslim or no?

Exploring Islam

SAM SHAMOUN: In my heart I believe Muhammad was a prophet, but it’s not good enough because if you go with Sunni Islamic tradition, you have to take the shahada in front of at least two witnesses. But the guy who was talking about Islam, he didn’t take me to a mosque. He just was talking.

And then I started. My curiosity is such that when I get into something, I have to study it. So if I backtrack, like when I like Bruce Lee, I had every book on Bruce Lee and I would devour hours into Bruce Lee. I had to know this guy inside and out.

When it came to bodybuilding, I would devour every bodybuilding magazine. And there was Arnold Schwarzenegger’s encyclopedia. You know something about me, when I’m into something, I eat it up and nothing else matters. It’s like I’m just focused on this. The world can go to hell. I mean, God forbid, but, you know, I’m not.

And so whatever I focus on becomes the entire center of my life. Everything I do revolves around that. So during this time, I’m thinking, I’m really, I’ve deceived myself. I’m going to make it to Hollywood. The Lord had a sense of humor. 18. When I was bodybuilding, my goal was that I’m going to get into Hollywood like these guys did. Bruce Lee did martial arts. I’m going to do it somehow. I’m going to do it somehow.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So are you watching Jean-Claude Van Damme? Are you watching all these movies? Are you watching them?

SAM SHAMOUN: I would watch them, but they never compared to Bruce. I would watch Bruce Lee.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know who’s a big Bruce Lee guy?

SAM SHAMOUN: Dana White. He is.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You go to his gym in his office, Bruce Lee quotes everywhere. When you walk into his office, there’s a Bruce Lee quote on the wall in his office. Like, Dana’s a Bruce Lee fanatic.

SAM SHAMOUN: He does think he’s a real dude. He’s not a fake, huh?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, no, no, no. Based on the way I had when I was with him, it was a lot of respect for him. His quotes are all over his gym everywhere. Okay, so 18 years old now. Is he discipling you?

SAM SHAMOUN: Is this guy disciple?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Did he bring you anywhere? Did you meet somebody? Did someone, did you meet any of the big names on the Nation of Islam?

SAM SHAMOUN: Nothing.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: It’s all independent identity.

SAM SHAMOUN: I did when I was searching, went to bookstores.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: 18 years old, there’s no Internet. There is Internet, but there’s not the Google and all that stuff because you know your age, where you’re at. I don’t remember using Internet at that time. I was more the AOL chat or whatever it was.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, remember that? The slow one?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah, that’s right. Net Zero and all of that.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So, okay, so at this time you’re going through it and then you read the Quran and you go through your phase. What are you doing? Occupation wise? What are you doing to make money?

The VHS Debate Era

SAM SHAMOUN: At that time I was working security and sometimes I’d work as a tow truck guy. Just buy time to get into. I’m serious. I was really, I really thought I was delusional, right?

But how did I find? How did I research? I just go to bookstore. There was a Muslim bookstore in Chicago, Northside Divan. There’s actually two. One of them is still there. If the people are watching, they’ll know what I’m talking about. It’s by Devon, California. It’s called Iqra. But in the 90s, it was not at that same spot. So I’d go buy Muslim books.

And I’d go, now we still have Barnes and Noble, but at that time we also had Borders. You guys remember Borders?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Of course.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. I love Borders more than Barnes and Noble. Why is that? I don’t know, man. I just, I don’t know. I just liked it. Maybe the colors, who knows?

But I would go there and try to get books and then Muslim bookstores, obviously. But what really did it for me is I would buy VHS tape debates. We’re living in a time of the VCR, VHS. I know some people say, what is that, right? I think it’s like the way of the dodo bird, Betamax.

And you know, we had VHS so they would sell Muslim-Christian debates. Now all those debates are online on YouTube. But that time we didn’t have YouTube, so I bought them.

And I’ll tell you how I got into apologetics, because that was because of some Muslim guy who challenged me. But when I watched the debates, I’m designed in a weird way. I learn more from attacks on the faith than I learned from defending the faith, because it forces me to think.

So I was watching the Muslims slaughtering the Christians and it got me to think, how do I answer this guy? So that put a fire in me to find answers. Now, I was never discipled. I didn’t have a pastor, I didn’t have a priest. I didn’t. I had to just rely on God’s spirit to guide me to the right sources, find the right, let’s say, authors, or listen to the right Christians.

But when it came to Christian-Muslim debates, the Christians were getting slaughtered. I cannot tell you of any Christian that I think won a debate decisively. In the 90s there were some close. But for some reason, the Muslims were slaughtering the Christians.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was their angle? What angle did they take that Christians didn’t have a way to defend themselves?

The Debate Landscape

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, even when it came to Christian topics, the Christians were doing bad. Like, is the Bible God’s word? You would have scholars like, in fact, it’s on YouTube, like the late Dr. Gleason L. Archer, who was professor emeritus of, now it’s closed. But in Deerfield, Illinois, you had Trinity Evangelical Divinity Seminary.

This man was a beast. Now, he’s since been with, he’s gone with the Lord. He would read and write 25 languages. He’s amazing. But when it came to debate, he was getting slaughtered. And by neophyte Muslims who don’t know biblical languages. And on topics you think it would be easy for him? He was just getting slaughtered.

You’ll find on YouTube, Gleason Archer, Muslim debates. Disappointing Trinity, getting slaughtered. Topics that we should win. It’s one thing when you’re debating a Muslim topic you’re not familiar with, and you know, you have the advantage, you’re a Muslim. But when it comes to your own topics, and you are, and he is brilliant, but he’s not a debater.

See, you’ll see some of the debates right there. Gleason Archer versus Jamal Badawi. The authenticity of the Quran. I mean, it was heartbreaking because I’m not a scholar. I’m just a, you know, teenager. And these scholars, you know, is there a response?

So to tell you how I got into this. So see how God works. When I finally did embrace Christ and realized that Muhammad was deceived and antichrist. First John 2:22-23. I had a friend who used to teach me how to box because I used to teach him how to bodybuild. I don’t want to mention his name. I don’t know what happened to him since. I don’t want to get him in trouble. I don’t know if he’s still in the faith, but he was from a Bosnian background.

His father was a boxing coach. And so he would teach me boxing. I would teach him how to lift weights. Because remember, I’m going to get into Hollywood, brother. As I started talking to him about Christianity, he started getting interested. Now, remember, he’s Muslim background, Bosnian Muslim background. Interesting.

So he started not going to the Jummah prayers, Friday prayers, at his community college, Wright College. So the Muslims started noticing. So they asked him what’s going on. He goes, well, you know, I’m starting to get into Christianity. Who’s the guy who’s been influencing you? Well, I’m a neophyte. I’m green. I don’t know much about, I’m just learning.

So I met a couple of his friends. They brought in a big gun. I don’t want to mention his name. I don’t want to give him publicity, you know, it’s from Chicago. He was a real estate guy from South, is it South Asia? We’ll leave it at that.

He walked in the church that I was in. It was a Korean church. He had like a folder, you know, binder. I don’t know what they call it, but, you know, we don’t have it anymore. But he came in, he opened it up. You know where they have those rings, paper. It was ready, man. He had a combat kit. It’s called the Com.

Later on I realized they call it the combat kit. In fact, it was made famous by another Muslim debater named Ahmed Deedat. Ahmed Deedat, who since deceased in 2005. He became famous when he debated Jimmy Swaggart as the Bible, God’s word. And from the Muslim perspective, Swaggart got destroyed. That made him international. He’s from South Africa.

If you look at it from a logical perspective, he didn’t win. But debates are not won on substance. It’s won on rhetoric, personality and flesh. And he’s very charismatic. He’s another guy. Jimmy Swaggart did, but he won. If you look at just the facts, Swaggart won, but the rhetoric and the confidence of Deedat. He was a very huge fellow, right? Just impressed and bedazzled the Muslims.

He was the biggest Muslim debater at that time. The second biggest, Jamal Badawi, who debated Gleason Archer. But coming back to this guy, you’ll find it here. Ahmed Deedat, Jimmy Swaggart. See, these are some of the historic debates that are setting the ground for future apologists. Some of the debates.

The Ahmad Didat Combat Kit

SAM SHAMOUN: So this guy had a combat kit because if you put an Ahmad Didat combat kit, he wrote books for Muslims to take. Right. There it goes. See, Against Bible thumpers, this guy had his own combat kit. Right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So funny.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. So what he did was he had verses of Bible that contradict. If it’s God’s word, then what about these contradictions? Now I’m green. I don’t know nothing. I have no idea, brother. I’m just, I just came into faith. Give me a break.

No, he came. This is one other reason people say, why are you so aggressive? You know, you’re very, like, sometimes you can be very nasty and. Because I think what he did to me impacted me because he was very nasty to me and he bullied me. And there’s something about me that triggers me when I feel I’m bullied. Right. That’s it. Yep. Ahmad Didat. Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So when you feel you’re bullied.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, I’ve been bullied, but sometimes I’ve been the bully because to my shame. But when I get challenged, something kicks in. It’s not like I want to be this way. And I go into like, I got to take you out. Now. I’m not a fighter physically. So how do I do it? I do it verbally because the way he approached me.

Now, how do you approach me? Maybe in a nice manner. Things may have been different. He was nasty, showed me no compassion, wanted to humiliate me, and he did.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is this recorded?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, he did. He humiliated me. I had no idea about the Bible because he would give me verses and then the Trinity, well, how can Jesus be gone? And I was destroyed, disgraced. And I was discouraged.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How old were you at the time?

A Prayer for Vindication

SAM SHAMOUN: I was close to, I think I was already in my 20s. It’s in the 90s, and my buddy was there. I almost gave his name. I don’t want to give his name. Lord help me. Not to mention I almost came out. He was there to witness it, but he didn’t, like, lose his faith in Christianity.

So I remember going at night and I started praying, and this was my deal with God. I said, God, if you give me answers to these questions, I swear to you, I will commit my life to never allowing another Christian to be humiliated ever again by a Muslim. And that’s at the, set it in motion.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So when you made that prayer, what happens next? What is given to you?

SAM SHAMOUN: The Lord is just directing my steps here. Read this, read that, study this. And so you know how the debate.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: With Ahmad Didat that? How many people are around while this is taking place?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, I didn’t debate Didat. I debated someone who was an admirer of him.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you debated the realtor that used the manual that he created to debate you.

SAM SHAMOUN: That was influenced by him. Now he has his own eye, but he had his manual that was influenced by Didat. I got it. So it’s not, but he’s the trendsetter. He’s the one. I got it right. He sells his own. But this guy had his folder with all.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is this realtor guy still preaching or no? Is he still out there doing this thing or no?

SAM SHAMOUN: The last time I saw him, glory to God. Vindication. I’ll just tell you, little ego, because you know he’s, we got to win. Right. When I came back a couple years later, he ran between his tail, between his legs, and I felt vindicated. That was the last time. So I don’t know if he’s alive or dead.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: That was in your 20s.

SAM SHAMOUN: That’s a long story. So that’s in the 90s and he was already maybe in his 40s, so I don’t know. Got it. But the Lord gave me vindication. Once.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You asked the Lord, you prayed for that. Who came into your life?

Influences and Mentors

SAM SHAMOUN: No one person. It was still the spirit guiding me. That’s why I was saying I would go to stores and I’ve met few Christian authors and lecturers, but it’s all on VHS. But it wasn’t how they shaped me when it comes to defeating Muslims. I learned a lot from two individuals in particular, but their approach was good. But it wasn’t like devastating.

The two names that really influenced me when it came to refuting Islam. And they’re actually online for, for the website I write for, answeringislam.info. John Gilchrist, he wrote a series of booklets and books because he was also in South Africa. He was the response to Didat. So if you go to answeringislam.info I’ll walk you through it. Answering Islam. All right. Yep.

Now, if you look at individual authors to, if you go down to the red right there, individual authors, you’re going to see John Gilchrist. It’s, yep, that man right there. He wrote a series of books and booklets responding to Didat. I learned a lot from him, but his arguments were not devastating. So he, if you want to say, I would say he’s an influence.

Another man that really influenced me because he taught me how to think logically is even here on the website. If you go to William Campbell, William Campbell is right there to your left, all the way to your left. Campbell and then right there, you see.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Right in the middle, right.

SAM SHAMOUN: He wrote a book, the Quran and the Bible, Light of history and science. If you click on that phenomenal book. Phenomenal book. That book, man, I ate it up. Because he was writing response to a man named Maurice Bucaille. He was the physician for the King of Saudi Arabia. He wrote a book in 1975, I believe, the Bible, Quran and science.

So he, as a non Muslim claimed, whereas the Bible is full of scientific errors, the Quran has none. In fact, it’s a miracle. No, exactly. That book was being shoved down the throats of Christians. The Bible, Quran and science. Dr. Maurice Bucaille, conveniently, he’s the physician of the King of Saudi Arabia and he found no mistakes in the Quran. Is that a coincidence? Yeah, no, no. Completely unbiased.

So this guy took him to the, you know, took him to school, obliterated his arguments. That book right there, I can say I probably read that book maybe 20 times. Wow. Because he introduced, there’s a chapter talking about deductive reasoning, right? And you know, how to think logically and how to avoid the etymological fallacy or how to avoid chronological fallacy, where you read a later meaning of word into an earlier period of time. So you can’t do that.

So if a word means X now, that doesn’t mean it had the same meaning 300 years ago. So you cannot apply modern definitions to words in an earlier context. You have to see how those words were used at that time. He blessed me. Because the Muslims all, yeah, well, the Arabic means this. Well, it means this now what did it mean at time Muhammad? Because words evolved.

Like even the word pig, ironically, 100 years ago, you know, now you put it and wanted to entry a metaphorical slurpee. Policeman, cop, right. That would be one of definition. Was that the meaning 200 years ago? No. So words evolve. So you can’t tell me because the Arabic means this now, it meant that at the time when the Quran is written. So he taught me how to think critically.

Now, the only problem is this guy debated Zakir Naik, and I was in the audience, and sadly, he got slaughtered by Zakir Naik. So his book was discredited.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: William Campbell.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, because he’s not a debater. He was an older gentleman. See, some people see if you want the most effective takedown of anything, you got to know people’s strengths and weaknesses, and you got to then put them in their areas of strength, keep them away from areas of weakness.

So if I know you’re a phenomenal speaker, but not a debater, I’ll let you speak. This guy’s a devastating debater. He’ll do the debates. If you’re a phenomenal writer, not a good speaker, you do the writing. And if you’re specialized, let’s say in the Trinity, you only talk about Trinity. He specializes in destroying, let’s say Hinduism. He, you don’t deal with anti Trinity. That’s not your field. Stay in refuting Hinduism. You’re great at Islam. You don’t deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses. You suck in that. Here’s a guy.

That’s how you got to do it. You got to know people in the areas of strength, like Robert Spencer. You won’t find anyone better in political jihad and historical Muhammad, you put him there, he’s going to shine. No one’s going to touch him. So you got to know the person and put them in their area of expertise.

See, like me, I don’t know much about science, I don’t know much about atheism. The most stupidest thing I can do is debate an atheist. Because if it’s about the glory of Christ, I don’t want to go embarrass myself and destroy faith. So let me bring those lions, Christians who spend their time eating up atheists. So that’s how you have to strategize.

So Campbell was a great writer, not a great speaker. He got destroyed by Zakir Naik.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is the debate.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yep, that’s a clip from the debate.

High-Level Debates

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So who have you debated? That’s a high level scholar, known Muslim debater.

SAM SHAMOUN: That’s hard. I think would be my first debate with Shibli Zaman. I think that’s the only one credible. Everyone else tried to make a name, but it didn’t go too far. There’s not many great Muslim debaters even today. They’re popular ones, but doesn’t mean they’re great.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Who are the popular ones?

SAM SHAMOUN: Daniel Haqiqatjou. Very popular. Mohammed Hijab exploded. He’s very popular.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Would you debate him?

SAM SHAMOUN: Absolutely.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You would debate Mohammed Hijab?

SAM SHAMOUN: Absolutely. In fact, one thing though, I have to share because I’m, I know how to bring down Islam. You have to know what to debate. This is the problem with many Christians who set up debates. They don’t know what to debate. If you want to see Islam destroyed, you have to know what to debate. And when you propose these debates, they’ll try to make 10,000 excuses not to debate them because they’ll know it’s the end of Islam.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Such as what?

The Islamic Dilemma

SAM SHAMOUN: The one thing I always start with before I debate a Muslim. What did Muhammad say about the Bible? It’s called the Islamic dilemma. Islamic dilemma. We put a Muslim in a dilemma. What’s the dilemma?

Well, just like my New Testament confirms the Old Testament, so as Christians, we can’t attack the Old Testament, we’re stuck with it. So when they tell me, what about these wars in the Old Testament, I can’t say, ah, Jesus told me the Old Testament is God’s word. So I got to join with the Jews in defending the Old Testament, right? Sometimes it’s hard. But if I believe Jesus and I believe in his Lordship, he told me the Old Testament is God’s word, it’s not the Vedas. I’m stuck. You know we love you Lord, and you didn’t make it too easy, right? And we have to deal with all these, wipe everything that breathes.

Muhammad put them in a similar situation. All throughout the Quran, Muhammad said one of the proofs of his prophethood is that my Quran confirms your scriptures. It agrees with them. No, it doesn’t. My Bible contradicts your Quran. That means the Quran is false. But see, the Muslims see that and say, oh, you must have changed the Bible. But the Quran never says it’s been changed. They try to take a verse here and there out of context. And what you read the context, it’ll either refer to the misinterpretation of the text or a particular group in a particular area, but not the entire community itself.

So one side debate that. Anytime they attack the Bible, I go, so you agree Muhammad is wrong. Why? He said, my Bible has not changed. You said it is. So that means he’s wrong. So are you going to announce Muhammad? See, this is how you have to do it. But then they’ll come back and say, if they say, well, no, the Bible is right, well, Muhammad is wrong again. Because my Bible says that what the Quran says about Jesus is wrong.

So Islamic dilemma, damned if you do, damned if you don’t. See, once you do that, everything else falls in place.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So you would debate him and what topics would you debate him on?

The Islamic Dilemma: Preservation, Monotheism, and the Nature of the Quran

SAM SHAMOUN: I would love to get these guys to debate me. Islamic dilemma, whether the Quran is perfectly preserved, free of contradictions. Does Islam teach tawhid meaning? Does it teach the absolute oneness of Allah? Believe it or not, it doesn’t. That’s what they’ll tell you. They’ll sell you that script.

And does the Bible teach a trinity and or the deity of Christ? These are the foundational issues, right? These are it. This is where you destroy Islam because Islam’s bread and butter is, “We have the purest form of monotheism. More so than you Christians. You worship three gods,” right?

That’s a lie from the pit of hell. Islam is anything but if you really study its sources. But if you let them just give you their spiel and quote a verse here and quote a verse there and catch you off guard, yeah, it sounds like it’s more monotheistic than Christianity. It’s actually very polytheistic.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: In what way?

The Uncreated Quran and Islamic Theology

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, if you deal with the Sunni Muslims, let’s go with that. Not Quran, only Muslims. They believe the Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah. So here’s another problem that Christians have. They will debate the Bible versus the Quran. Wrong debate, wrong debate.

Because the Islamic understanding of the Quran is our view of Jesus. And this is something amended by Muslim scholars. What do I mean? In Christianity, Christ is the uncreated eternal word of the Father who became flesh. Well, that’s what they believe about the Quran. The Quran is the uncreated word of God that became a book.

So your view of Jesus is their view of the Quran. It’s not your view of the Bible. None of us think the Bible is the uncreated word of God. Impossible. Because God used human authors and used their personalities. So if you’re going to say it’s the uncreated Word of God, then you’re going to say those human authors also are uncreated. It doesn’t work.

But Jesus is the uncreated word of God. John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.” And then 14, “The Word became flesh.” So they took that idea of Jesus and applied it to the Quran. Something admitted by Muslim scholars.

Now, if the Quran is the uncreated word of Allah, very easy dilemma. Is the Quran Allah? Is it the same as Allah? Now in Islamic theology, I say it is not Allah and it’s not other than Allah. And they’ll say it’s not Allah, it’s not other than Allah. What does that mean? Meaning no, it’s not identical to Allah, but it’s not separable from Allah. So it’s not identical to him because Allah is not the Quran. Allah has a set of attributes.

But here’s the problem. So if you say the Quran is not Allah and it’s uncreated, how many uncreated entities do you have? Two. But I thought there’s only one uncreated entity. Now they have to sound like Christians saying, though they’re distinct, they’re inseparable. So they’re one. Oh, welcome to the wonderful world of the Trinity. That’s the first step.

Now I can go further. In their tradition, the Quran actually speaks. There are sound narrations where it says, on a day of judgment, the Quran will appear as a man interceding for you. Now I’m kind of confused on that. If this is the speech of Allah, who is it speaking to? Well, it’s speaking to Allah. So Allah is speaking to himself.

No, no, no, no. The Quran is speaking to Allah, so it’s not Allah. Oh, so the Quran has its own consciousness. It can interact with Allah. So they’re not the same person. They’re different conscious entities, but they’re inseparable. While you’re sounding more like a Trinitarian, the more we speak now, if you multiply with the chapters, even the chapters speak and they appear.

It says chapter two and three of the Quran will appear as birds and they will cover you with the wings and they’ll go before you arguing with Allah to defend you. Does that sound like Islam teaches absolute unity of Allah?

The Growth of Islam: Conversion vs. Procreation

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Let me ask you in regards to the religion itself on how it’s grown over the years.

SAM SHAMOUN: Okay.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: And I’m sure as you’re going through it, you know they’ve had a lot of success. They’ve grown at a pace where you can look at data on by what you’re, you know, the world’s going to be a majority Muslim. I think it’s 2060 or something like that. 2060, 2070. And they’re not slowing down.

I mean you see the growth they’re having in UK in 1980 was only a half a million people living there, give or take. Today they got four and a half million people, five million people living there. And you’re seeing London growing the way that it is. The mayor is a three term, only three term mayor they’ve ever had, Sadiq Khan. And then you’re seeing what happened in New York with Mamdani getting elected.

SAM SHAMOUN: Right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Muslim Democratic socialists, they’re growing okay. On the Christian side, I don’t know if you know, Charlie Kirk played offense. Charlie Kirk was out there doing a lot and getting ahold of young kids who turning point USA wanted to grow up and be able to defend their faith in a strong way. And he was becoming unapologetic.

SAM SHAMOUN: Right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: The way he was doing it, Charlie was why do you think their church is growing the way that it is?

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, if you look at it really and compare it, it’s not really so much conversion. Yeah, they get converts but even statistics have shown. Now, I don’t know when the last statistic came out, but I remember years ago, one statistic showed that about over 90% of converts leave Islam in five years because they’re giving a sanitized version of Islam that when they study, they realize it doesn’t correspond to what they were taught.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So over 90% of converters leave within five years.

SAM SHAMOUN: That was a statistic that mentioned years ago. But find out. Maybe. Yeah, but they don’t last. The majority of them don’t last. But those who end up, let’s say, remaining, it’s not much on conversion, but believe it or not, it has to do with procreation.

You would, if you look at it, unless they’re completely Westernized, right? If they bought into the Western dream and having more kids means greater financial responsibility. So have less kids. If they’re not Westernized, typically they have larger families. And because of that, if you have a Muslim who has a wife who has four kids, but then multiply that with two other wives on the side, we got problems. They’re going to outnumber you.

But the thing is, also, even with that said, we have to be careful. Islam is not monolithic just because you have majority Muslims. They don’t all believe the same. And many Muslims are secular. They’re not even devout Muslims. They’re Muslims by name.

And secondly, Muslims turn on each other. So even when we say they’re growing, it’s not one branch of Islam that’s growing. It is simply these populations who were then governed by Islam, many of whom don’t know their tradition or they don’t have the same tradition, and they’re growing because of procreation more so than conversion. And then at times they become their worst enemies.

In fact, if I’m correct, I’m not into the political thing, but what about the fights between Shia and Sunnis? Even in recent times, in fact, if you, I’ve seen videos where you’ll find Sunni, the terrorists in Iraq killing more Shia than non Muslims. Why is that? Because they think Shia is even worse because of their views of Aisha. Not all Shia are extreme, so they turn on each other. They’re not all in agreement, they’re not monolithic.

So even when you say, oh, they’re going to be over 2 billion, but 2 billion Muslims of different mindsets, of different sects that don’t all agree, and at times they turn against each other and anathematize one another, same thing with Christianity. So I’m not trying to say Christianity doesn’t have that problem. Right. We Christians, okay.

When you say there are 2 billion Christians, well, among those, you’re counting Jehovah’s Witnesses, and you’re counting Mormons, and you’re counting all these cult groups that identify as Christianity. You’re not just counting historic Christian churches. You’re not just counting the Catholic Church, or you’re counting all who sign off as a Christian. And some of them are Christian by name, but live like the devil. So are they really Christian?

When you have a Muslim saying he’s a Muslim, but he drinks and eats pork and, you know, they do that. Of course, we’ve met them, especially in Chicago. My teenage years, I had a couple. They were anything but Muslim. Right? So it’s, to say you’re Muslim is one thing, but to say practicing Muslim.

True Believers: Who Has the Most Committed Followers?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Well, let me ask this because, you know, you’ll talk to some people who are Jewish, they’ll say, I’m jealous Jewish.

SAM SHAMOUN: Right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know, Adam will say, I’m Jewish. You know, I’m not really Jewish. I’m more Jewish, you know, and, but you have that, you know, the watered down, you know, Christians, Jews and Muslims.

SAM SHAMOUN: Exactly. Okay.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: However, which one has more radical true believers of their faith? Okay, so forget about the 2 billion. Forget about the 2.1 billion Christians. Forget about the 15 million Jews. Forget about, you know, all those that we can go through.

Which one has a bigger percentage of true believers that they have fully bought into their vision long term, and they’re imposing, they’re driving. Yeah, that’s the number you got to look at, right?

The Revival of Christian Faith Among Youth

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, but that’s the thing. I haven’t done any intensive study on Christians who are devout Christians. But you have a revival happening right now. You’re having a revival where the youth are not just nominal Christians. They are being sparked up to be on fire for Christ.

So this is why I say, I can’t really give you a number if there are more zealous Muslims than Christians. But to say that in recent times, because of recent events, there hasn’t, the spirit is moving in such a way that I’m also astonished seeing the hunger among youth to want to now come back to their Christian roots.

Or even, by the way, you’re having an explosion of converts of Islam and Muslim lands. They even say that the church is exploding in Africa and in Iran. They go, there are a lot of Iranians who become Christians. They’re underground.

But even with that said, like I said, when I say Christian, see, this is. Again, we have to be fair. They’re converting to a variety of forms of Christianity. Some are becoming Mormons. Well, do we consider them Christian? Right, Jehovah’s Witnesses or Oneness, so to say. How many are zealous, I’d have to look at the statistics.

But from my own experience seeing online, I’m seeing the youth come in droves, on fire to reclaim their Christian faith. And on fire for Jesus. I’m seeing it when I was doing it in the late 90s, early 2000, it wasn’t the way it is now. So YouTube is having a huge impact. It is causing people to look into Christianity.

And I am seeing a lot of Muslims leave Islam for Christianity. But I am seeing people who convert to Islam, but those are the Christians and I have to say, very poorly catechized and being given a sanitized version of Islam. Because I’ve interviewed people who said I became a Muslim five years ago, but then I found such and such or such and such. And I saw and I was shocked that this is what Islam teaches. I can’t be a Muslim anymore because they give you a sanitized version of Islam.

The Difference Between Jesus and Muhammad

See the difference with Jesus Christ. Here’s the difference. The more you get to know Muhammad’s teaching, the more repulsive it turns out to be. The more you get to know Jesus, the more irresistible he is, the more you fall in love with him. He is beauty in the flesh.

If you want to show a person why not to become Muslim, just compare Muhammad to Jesus. Because Jesus makes everything else look ugly, because he’s just beautiful. What can you say bad about Jesus?

I mean, even from the Islamic perspective, one of the ways I even argue my case that Jesus is superior to Muhammad, I use the Islamic Jesus because I don’t believe the Islamic Jesus is the real Jesus, right?

Because Paul told us, if you go to Second Corinthians, chapter 11, he warned, he’s warning the church. Second Corinthians, chapter 11, verse 1 of 4. He’s warning the church. He goes, look, I converted you basically, so you are my spiritual daughter. Because he’s their spiritual father. He goes, I have betrothed you as a chaste virgin to one husband because the church is the bride of Christ.

So this is spiritual. It’s nothing carnal, nothing physiological. Because we have to emphasize that. Because we have people, sick minds who think that Christ is going to come and have a physical life. No, it’s the church, the spiritual bride of Christ. But there is something called spiritual virginity. Paul uses it. I want to present you as a chaste virgin to one husband.

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, you too will be deceived from your simple devotion to Christ. Now, how does Satan the serpent rob us of our spiritual virginity? He says it in verse four. He says, because if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than we preached, or a different spirit from the one we received, or a different gospel, you put up with it easily.

So he’s saying, the way Satan makes Christians lose their integrity virginity is by presenting another Jesus and you tolerate it. Well, he’s talking about the Islamic Jesus, and I’m not saying he knew about it, but the other Jesus is the Jesus of Islam or Mormonism or Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s not the same Jesus. There’s only one Jesus. You got to get him, right?

So the Jesus that Paul preached was God in the flesh, one with the Father and the Spirit. Any other Jesus is Satan’s way of deceiving you. So when we say to Muslims, yeah, you know, we all honor Jesus. No, we don’t. I don’t honor your Jesus. Your Jesus is not my Jesus.

So. But when Christians go with it, Paul says, see, now you let the serpent con you. You just fell for his trick. That’s his trust. Yeah. You believe in Jesus. I believe in Jesus, yeah. No, your Jesus is Isa, who announced the coming Muhammad. My Jesus is the God of Muhammad, before whose feet Muhammad will bow and confess he’s Lord. Is that your Jesus? They’ll say no. Then your Jesus is not my Jesus. So this is the mindset you have to have.

The Question of Paradise in Islam

PATRICK BET-DAVID: You know the part that I watched this young lady, and I want to ask this because to me, I think about it, on what benefit it has. Right? This young lady is asking, you know who she’s asking, obviously. Yeah, Zachary. That’s right.

SAM SHAMOUN: That’s the one who defeated William Kennedy.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s right. So she’s asking him, hey, if men go to heaven, they get 72 virgins. What do women get? And this is his. It’s a very good question.

SAM SHAMOUN: Go ahead.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

ZAKIR NAIK: Ram mother said that Muslims go to heaven and then they get 72, 72 women, the men, what will the woman get? So as far as the first question, your second question, I answer the first and then come back to your first question. As far as the question is concerned, that if the men go to heaven, they’ll get 72. That beautiful woman, what will the woman get?

The same question was asked for Aisha, who’s the wife of the prophet. So the wife of the Prophet replied that the woman will get that which your heart hasn’t desired, what your eyes hasn’t seen, what your ear hasn’t heard about. That means, inshallah, you get something equal, what your heart hasn’t desired, what your eyes hasn’t seen, what your ear hasn’t heard. So inshallah, if you go to heaven, you will get something good which, inshallah, you’ll be satisfied. But the question is first you have to enter heaven. If you don’t enter heaven, you won’t get that something which is good.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What does that mean?

SAM SHAMOUN: Oh, did you see the. He didn’t answer the question.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: He didn’t answer it at all.

SAM SHAMOUN: No, no. Pay attention to his trick. Oh yeah, the Quran says, you know, a woman will get what eye hasn’t seen. Right. Okay, well hold on. Does that mean she’s going to get 70 men? He never said yes. Did you catch that? Because he can’t say that. That would be a lie from the pit of hell.

So he’s an excellent politician. He knows how to get around it. Because if you pay attention, he never said women will get multiple men. He can’t say that. So. But you’re going to get delights that are mind blowing. Okay, I understand that. Does that include that the woman gets multiple men? Oh, but you’re going to get what the eye has never seen or the mind has comprehended. Okay, but does that mean I’m going to get more than one husband? See, this is the rhetoric I’m talking about.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What do women get in the Muslim religion? Well, in Islam, you know.

SAM SHAMOUN: Can I tell you? Yeah. You will be part of the houris that your husband will deflower for all eternity. Tell me more. Okay, now let’s say you’re a good Muslim woman.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Yeah.

SAM SHAMOUN: You married a Muslim man. Yeah. Now it’s difficult to ascertain if you’ve been married multiple times, which Muslim man. But if you pass the test and you had a good Muslim husband, Allah will then make you part of those huris for your husband to deflower. He’ll be one among many.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: A crappy deal for the girl.

SAM SHAMOUN: Why do you think she asked? And notice he never said, oh, you’re going to get 70 men. He can’t say that. He knows he’d be lying. So that means a Muslim woman, she’ll have huge breasts, firm breasts, 78, 33. She’ll be part of the hur Al Ayn. You know, if I tell you where that word comes from, our English word whore comes from that word. By the way, I was just going.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: To say it sounds really familiar to horror.

SAM SHAMOUN: No, really, it’s not. Yeah. He said, you’re going to be a horde. I was like, okay.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: That didn’t sound.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. I was almost going to break out with an impression. The brother said, but we’re not doing comedy. Vincent, Vincent.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Look at his eyes. Look at his birthday, by the way.

SAM SHAMOUN: What is it? October 18th.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: He’s born on the same day. We have the same birthday, 13 years apart.

SAM SHAMOUN: Thank God you’re a muscular, handsome Assyrian beast.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Very different, buddy.

SAM SHAMOUN: Surrounded by muscular beasts too.

The Mathematical Problem of Paradise

PATRICK BET-DAVID: But anyway, my man. So, so, okay, so. So the contradictions of what a man gets versus what a woman gets. If I’m a logical guy and I’m truly looking for a religion and I’m open minded. And I’m looking to the Christian church. I’m going, you know, studying Judaism, maybe I can go that direction. I’m studying Scientology, LDS. Oh, and I’m also putting. Becoming a Muslim. 72 virgins. How can I buy into that if I got anything but a B or higher in math in high school?

Do you understand what I’m saying? I don’t know if you get what I’m saying. So how does the math add up?

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: How many billions of Muslim men have died? That means there is 72. Like the math.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. So how.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is a math question I’m asking.

SAM SHAMOUN: You underestimate the greatness of Allah. That’s probably what it is that the problem is. Allah can meet the demand by just giving you, just creating as many as you need. See, this is why you, you’re a kafir, brother. You don’t have faith. Allah can do what no eye didn’t. You remember what no eye has seen, brother?

No. Hardest come. By the way, that’s a plagiarism of Paul. He was quoting Paul because Muhammad took Paul’s words. That statement comes from First Corinthians 2, verse 9. But Muhammad heard it and misapplied it, misappropriated it.

So if you go to First Corinthians 2, you’re going to see that the context is about what God has in store for believers who love him. It’s First Corinthians 2, 9. But Muhammad took it, adapted it, reinterpreted it. So ironically, Muhammad is quoting Paul, not Jesus here.

Because if you go to First Corinthians 2, you read 9 all the way to 12. You’ll see what the context says. It’s in verse 9. “What no eye has seen.” Wow. Sound familiar, brother? Yeah. “What no ear has heard, what no human mind has conceived, the things that God has prepared for those who love him.” Wow.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you play that again, Rob?

SAM SHAMOUN: Sounds familiar.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Can you play that again?

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

ZAKIR NAIK: But, mother. Brother, you look careful now. Then they get 72. 72. Who will. The men.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What will the women get?

ZAKIR NAIK: And so as far as the first question, your second question. I answer first and then come back to your first question. As far as the question is concerned, that if the men go to heaven, they’ll get 72. That beautiful woman, what will the woman get? The same question was asked for her, who’s the wife of the prophet. So the wife of the prophet replied that the woman will get that which your heart hasn’t desired, what your eyes hasn’t seen, what your ear hasn’t heard about.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Weird.

ZAKIR NAIK: I’ve heard that. That means, inshallah, you get something equal what your heart hasn’t desired, what your eyes hasn’t seen, what a year hasn’t heard. So, inshallah. If you go to heaven. Yeah.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s interesting.

SAM SHAMOUN: So what. What is.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What is the. Is that. How much of the selling point of becoming a Muslim is that? Is that a big part of it or is that a small part of it? I mean, why would somebody who’s a green, who is open, you know, Muhammad Ali doesn’t give me the vibes of being a guy that’s not smart.

SAM SHAMOUN: Right.

The Appeal of Islam to Intelligent People

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Malcolm X doesn’t give me the vibes of a guy that’s not smart. Very intelligent, even Farrakhan. What gets them to say, I’m converting, I’m going. A lot of people I know who have gone that direction. These are smart guys that I’ve had dinner with, I’ve had lunch with, I sit down with them. Intelligent, good citizens, good families, good upbringing, good. You know, even these. Some of these guys are very good net positive to society. What is the selling point?

SAM SHAMOUN: You can be smart in one way and completely oblivious in another way. Right. So when you say smart in what sense? Business smart. Okay. But that does not equate to being theologically smart. That’s true.

So Muhammad Ali, if you really know why he converted, it was more because of the emphasis on black supremacy. He became a member of the Nation of Islam. Nation of Islam is just black supremacist mindset. So when you’re oppressed and you have someone saying, hey, you are the original man and Allah is a black man and the white man’s a devil. If you feel oppressed and inferior, that kind of gives you the false pretext that no, you’re special and that’s why you’re being oppressed.

So his conversion wasn’t because he knew Islam. He knew black supremacy, black centric Islam, which is contrary to the teaching of historic Islam. So when you say yeah, they’re smart, but are they smart in religion? Have they studied their sources? Do they understand? Because you have brilliant Christians who are millionaires but don’t know a lick of the Bible. So I don’t deny they’re intelligent one way, but it doesn’t mean they understand their sources.

Now when you say, is this a selling point? This is one of the things they don’t mention. This is why I was saying that within five years, when people study Islam and see the horrific, horrendous aspects of Islam, they’re shocked. That’s why they accuse us of lying immediately. When I say the Quran says it, you’re lying. Doesn’t say because they’re shocked.

So I don’t want to give the impression that the Muslims are the villains. They’re not. And I’m not saying to be politically correct. Most Muslims have no idea what Islam teaches. They’re just cultural Muslims. They’ll go pray five times a day and they’ll, they just want to get along. It’s those fanatical Muslims that are dangerous. And there are about 10% if you, they say statistically about 10% that are fanatic. But 10% of 2 billion, that’s still a large number, right?

Most Muslims have no idea. Most Christians have no idea. Christianity. If I ask a Christian about the Old Testament wars, they’re shocked to hear that too. In fact, if I recall, in the debate, didn’t they bring up some of the Old Testament wars? They try to scandalize the Christian debaters because even Christians don’t know about, hey, kill everything that breathes. There’s a context to that. I mean, Jesus forces us to try and understand the logic. You know, I mean, even when I came to the faith, it was difficult. But then as I understood and I studied, oh, I understand now, but we can get into that point.

Being just like a Christian will be shocked to hear what’s in his Bible if he’s not properly trained. Most Muslims are shocked to hear when I say, oh, Hazrat Aisha, he said, hazrat Aisha. Did you know she was nine when Muhammad deflowered her? You’re a liar. You’re lying. Right. But wait, you’re sorry. Then they say, well, it was acceptable at that time. Or no, these are lies. These are later traditions.

So not every Muslim is on board because not every Muslim knows. But if you’re convinced. Now, here’s the problem. If you’re convinced it’s the truth, you’re stuck with it. Okay, what option do I have?

Muhammad’s Treatment of His Wife

PATRICK BET-DAVID: In one of the conversations with a woman, she’s talking to you about being a Muslim. And then you tell the story about how he did something to his wife because she got fat and unattractive and left her.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. Boy, you really been watching me. You still like me and bite me? Oh, yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’ve been watching the last two days. I don’t know how many hours I content of yours I’ve watched.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. According to. Again, you have to go with the Islamic narrative. Right. Some people say, well, that’s just later tradition. Surat al Nisa, Chapter 4, 128. If you want to open up, I’ll give you the context for 128. You’re going to see the context here. Yeah. Surah Tanisa, Chapter 4, 128. Yeah. If he opens it up, I don’t know. I would recommend a browser, but I don’t know which one. The one I have for the.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: This is in the Quran.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yep. Watch here. 120. Chapter 4, 128. Not 1 to 28. Sorry. 128. This is the context of the passage. I’m going to explain it here. Now, if you’re not a Sunni, you can reject this. If you’re a Quran only Muslim, you can reject this because this is based on the Hadith. Because if you want to know, okay, what was the context of these verses? They have what’s called the occasion or reason of revelation.

So you got to go into the commentaries, you got to go into books. And they say, oh, this verse was revealed because of this. But that’s not in the Quran. So if someone wants to reject it, they’ll say, well, it doesn’t say so. He’d be right. But then I’d say turn back, say, well, what’s the context? And how do you know? When was this composed? If he tells me, oh, sixth century. I go, well, the Quran doesn’t tell you. Sixth century. How did you get that? Oh, from the same sources I just quoted that you rejected. Interesting.

So you go to them when need be, but when it disproves your point? No, it’s now suspect. But these are the same sources that told you that this is revealed in Medina and at this year because the Quran doesn’t tell you. But nonetheless, if we read it, here’s the thing. And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there’s no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them. And settlement is best.

Now what is that about? If I go to the tradition, Muhammad had at one time 11 wives, even more than has God allowed for others. If you go to chapter four, verse three, the crown, you don’t need to turn there, but four, verse three, it says you can have two or three or four wives if you can be fair, if not have one. But then it says, and as many as your right hands possess. See, that part is not emphasized.

Quranic Teachings on Wives and Concubines

So the Quran allows unlimited concubinage. That’s why you’ll hear stories. When you have people who go to Saudi Arabia to be maids, they don’t know they’re signing up for sex. That’s part of the deal. Because in Islam, if you are a maid or a servant, the man has conjugal rights to sleep with you. You’re signing up for that. That’s in chapter four, verse three. The Quran, it’s there. I didn’t write it. You know, don’t get angry at me and put a hit on me or my friends. I didn’t write it. Quran 4, 3, chapter 4, verse 3. If you want to show it to him, then we can come back here. You’ll see.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: A maid?

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, well, it’s called your right hand possesses, meaning that which is under your control, whether a servant or a maid or anything here. And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphans, then marry those that please you of other women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then marry one or those your right hands possess.

Right hand possession means your concubines. You’re free to have as many as you want, but if you want to marry, you can only have up to four. But it doesn’t tell you. Okay, the four plus the slave girls or the maids, that’s authentic Islam, Sunni and Shia tradition. There’s no. Because it’s in the Quran. Right? So that part seems to have, you know, been glossed over. I guess many people didn’t get the memo. So when you. Go ahead, brother, I’m just curious how so many.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I know you’re not political, but how so many of these Ilhan Omar and all these women of Muslim faith, like they’re my body, my choice and everything, but then every single thing in the Quran is anti them. Like those 72 virgins, Sam, for every guy that goes and has all these virgins, like what type of life is it as a Muslim woman that you die and your eternity is up there having sex with all these guys? Like it doesn’t make any sense to me.

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, it does one of two things. It makes them leave Islam or member. If you’ve been convinced that Allah is God and that’s the only religion, well, hey, what choice do I have? You see? Understand? Yeah. Okay. If I have been duped and beyond any reasonable doubt convinced this is true, I’m stuck. What do you want me to do, Vinny? This is how Allah, hey, Allah does what he wants. I’m just glad I’ll be there. I won’t be burning in the fire.

See, this is the. Why do I say you have to be careful demonizing all Muslims? Because many of them are victims of the system, right? And I don’t know, I was going to say so, but anyway, they’re victims of the system. But coming to the explanation, I’m going to explain 4, 128. Now remember, how many wives can the Muslim have?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: 2, 3 or 4.

The Treatment of Muhammad’s Wives

SAM SHAMOUN: Yes, you can have 2, 3, 4. Okay. If you could handle it. Yeah, yeah. Muhammad had 11. Eleven when he died, he widowed nine.

Now what makes it more tragic and disgusting, this is why I cannot believe if someone knows Jesus, he’d leave Jesus for Muhammad. That’s why I say if you want to really get people to never consider Muhammad, say, look what Muhammad did compared to Jesus. Jesus’ beauty will show you how disgusting these teachings are, right? Focusing on. Look at Christ, look at Muhammad.

In fact, comparing Muhammad to Paul the Apostle, a glorious holy servant of Christ and all he was was a servant. If you see his lifestyle and his purity, he makes Muhammad look filthy by comparison. Just Paul, who’s not our God in the flesh. But nonetheless, not only in 4:128, if you go back, did Muhammad treat one of his wives unjustly.

Every single wife of Muhammad after he died, could never remarry again. That’s in the Quran. You cannot have his wives after him. So he left some of them widows. Aisha was 18, they say, and others in their 20s, widows. And some of them lived to their 50s without ever being able to marry, have children. This is what he did to them. And you’re telling me he’s a mercy unto mankind? Seriously?

And what does it tell you about a man who had nine wives and couldn’t get any of them pregnant? Right. They say that his first wife, Khadijah bint Khuwaylid, that was his first wife. She was 15 years a senior. She was actually his boss. He used to work for her. If we go with the again, remember we’re going by the Islamic narrative. He used to work for her and she was so impressed by his conduct, she proposed marriage and he married her.

According to Islamic tradition, she was a wealthy merchant woman because she had married two wealthy men and they died, left their fortune and he used to be a caravan trader for her. So she was his boss. According to the Sunni tradition, he married her when he was 25, she was 40. And so she supposedly mothered all his children, but every son he had died as a toddler. None of his sons lived even to adulthood.

Now, he only stayed with her until she died. Now I’m going to explain to you why it is significant. After that he went crazy. He started just collecting wives. All his children, not only the sons died as toddlers, but even his daughters who got married later died. The only child that outlived them was his daughter Fatima, who then died six months later. She was married to Ali ibn Abu Talib, who’s his first cousin.

And hence you get the Shia and Sunni divide because Muhammad’s lineage is traced to his daughter Fatima, because she gave him two grandsons, Hassan and Hussain. This is where the Shia traced Ahlul Bayt. So this has significance with the Shia and the Sunni. They don’t get along. Fatima, right. Ali, who’s supposedly the rightful successor, Muhammad, he was robbed. She gave him his two grandsons because he had no boys, he had no successors. Hassan, Hussain, Ahlul Bayt. The family line of Muhammad supposedly comes from that line. But with that said.

Oh, supposedly he got Khadijah pregnant when she was 40. Okay, we’ll give him that. The other wives, he couldn’t get any of them pregnant. But then he had a sex slave, Maria al-Qibtiyya, Mary the Copt sent to him. He supposedly got her pregnant. She gave birth to his son Ibrahim, and he died when he was 2. Okay, so maybe something happened. He got lucky with her. There’s some questions whether that’s what’s really his son, but we don’t get into that.

My whole point is, of all these women, he only got one woman supposedly pregnant after Khadijah, a son who died. None of the other women who can get pregnant, not even Aisha who married at 9, left them all childless and widows who could never remarry again. And he’s a mercy unto woman. Where’s the mercy in leaving these women without a husband or children for the rest of their days? That’s merciful.

Women have needs, right? They want companionship, they want intimacy, they want children. And he left them with none of that. And you’re telling me he’s a mercy unto mankind?

The Case of Sawda bint Zam’a

Now to show you how cruel he is. That’s where you’re going to come. 4:128 now you’re going to see the cruelty of Muhammad. Now you’re going to see how this man is considered a mercy. I have no idea. Man. If he’s merciful, then you and me, Vinny, we’re in trouble.

Now it says if a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them. Now the context is Sawda bint Zam’a. She was an older wife of Muhammad. Now when he was married to Khadijah, he never got married. When she died, it says that then he multiplied wives. Second wife was Aisha. My memory fails me if it was the first one. But nonetheless he married her among the eleven wives, but he was no longer attracted to her.

This is in the Muslim tradition. I didn’t write this. Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim. You know, they’re writing this. So I don’t want people to condemn me to hell. They can look at any commentary. And she feared that Muhammad was going to divorce her. There’s even a hadith in Bukhari that says she would go out to the call of nature. But because she was a huge fat lady, you wouldn’t miss her. You know it’s not her. Hey, hey. What are you doing? We can see you. Right?

So it describes a huge fat woman. Fat lady. So she’s a large woman and an older woman. She feared Muhammad is going to divorce her. So she made a deal with him. Keep me as your wife, but you don’t have to visit me. Because part of the deal was he would have to visit these wives on successive days. But the Quran says it’s up to him. He could choose not to. You know, I’m not going to see you. I’m going to see you. The Quran says it’s up to his discretion. That’s chapter 33 of the Quran. Verses 50 to 51, which wife you—

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Want to see and which wife you don’t want to see.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, up to you.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So there’s not a set schedule calendar you have to follow.

SAM SHAMOUN: So that means you’d be thankful if he chooses to see you, be grateful. So she comes to him and says, look, don’t divorce me, keep me as your wife. Now remember, each wife has to have her own house and she cannot go out unless there’s a need and with his permission. So can you imagine? You’re under house arrest. Pretty much. You can only go if it’s a need or he gives you permission.

So he has 11 wives, 11 homes. They have to stay home until he says you can come out. Or if it’s something really like, hey, I got to run to the toilet. Okay. This woman said, don’t divorce me, keep me as your wife. And the day assigned to me, you can give it to Aisha. So Aisha had two days, the nine year old. Yep. And he left this woman in a house all by herself the rest of her days. And the Quran says, good agreement, if you agree to it, no problem. So his God said, that’s the deal, go with.

Now. Why did she want to be his wife? See, this is again, because the Quran says that all of Muhammad’s wives will be his wives in paradise. So she was hoping that if he didn’t divorce her, she’d end up with him in paradise. See the mindset, please don’t divorce me, let me die as your wife, so at least in paradise I’ll be your wife. And he left this woman alone in a house without, you know, and having no children with her, all because he was not attracted to her and she knew it. And she said, don’t divorce me.

Now if Muhammad was merciful, you know what a merciful God and a prophet say? What are you crazy? I love you just as much as the first day I laid my eyes on. In fact, I love you more. What do you mean no? You’re my wife and I’m going to honor you. Okay, good deal. Let’s go for it. And it’s sanctioned in the Quran. See what it says? If a woman fears from her husband contempt or desertion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them and settlements best. So if you agree to this. All right, good deal, go with it.

But who wins in this deal? The men. The men are winning. The women are getting abused. I don’t know how in the world. This guy is a mercy unto mankind. And when people tell me, respect my Prophet, how can I respect such a man who has not only destroyed the people around him?

Public Recognition and Safety Concerns

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Sam, how much when you walk in the streets, how often have Muslims approached you? You know, what kind of threats are you getting when you’re out there saying what you’re saying?

SAM SHAMOUN: Interestingly, TikTok and Instagram, the clips made me famous, not because I wanted to. So if I’m going places, I’ll get recognized. But Muslims, even if they recognize me, will try to avoid me, you know, because remember, they, unless it’s a fanatic, wants to kill me. They’re not here to kill or go to jail. Right. So if they even recognize me, they won’t come up to me. Right. Because again, this stereotype, not all Muslims are killers, not all Muslims are terrorists. So I haven’t run into the 10%. Yeah, I haven’t run into them.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Got it.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. So thank God. Yeah.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, that’s a very good thing. It’s a very good thing. By the way, in regards to us Assyrians, you know the story about what happened with us. You’re a good storyteller. You know how to break things down.

SAM SHAMOUN: Well.

The Assyrian Story

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What happened to Assyrians? We used to have a country. The fall of Babel. What happened to us?

SAM SHAMOUN: If you’re asking me from a theological perspective, because Old Testament history, because it’s not just prophecy, it’s history. What we’re told in the Book of Nahum, if you’re asking me now, just as a Christian, see the political landscape from the revelation God has given. Because that’s the only source I have, right? I mean, if we can conjecture all we want, your opinion is just as good as mine. But if I believe the Bible is God’s word, and this is God’s perspective, he’s a reality.

The Lord will often destroy nations who’ve reached a limit of sin, of how much he tolerates. The Bible says there’s like a debt ceiling. There’s so much sin he tolerates, and then that’s over for you. So we’re told in the Book of Nahum, this is the judgment of Nineveh, he says, because of the Assyrians being steeped. And it’s not just strange to this thing. God does this with all the nations.

You can just start reading from Isaiah, chapter 10 on all the way. You’re going to see all the way to 19. God is talking about the judgment of all the nations. Like, you know, the Moabites, the Ammonites, the Babylonians, because why? God owns them all. This is where people must read the Old Testament. They go, oh, this book is the Old Testament and he’s the God of Israel. If you read the Old Testament, God keeps saying, I’m the God of all nations. The reason why I’m working through Israel is to move them to worship me. This is the theme in the Old Testament.

In point of fact, I want to ask you guys a question as I answer this one. When was the last time you were told that there’s another group said to be God’s people in the Old Testament besides Israel? Because you’re told that Israel is the people of God? Right. When is the last time someone told you that? Very Old Testament says there’s another group that is said to be the people of God. It’s the very passage every historian and his mother quotes that talks about Assyria and Egypt in Isaiah 19:23 to 25. Specifically 25. Egypt, my people. Assyria, the work of my hands, Israel, my inheritance.

Does that sound like a tribal God? He says, Egypt is my people. So when we read the Old Testament, sometimes we’re misreading it due to particular theological dispositions or political points of view. The God of the Old Testament is quite clear. The response to Israel was to be his priest, to lead the nations to him. And do you know the one group of people that are the most attacked in the Old Testament are the Israelites.

Now, what that tells me is this is a brutally honest record, because if you’re making up stories, you’re going to sugarcoat things, right?

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Are you talking about the Forgotten Nation of Prophecy by John Bulkow?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, he wrote a book. I’m talking about Isaiah 19.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I get that. But he talks about that in the book, right?

The Heart of God for All Nations

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, he’s trying to focus on us. I actually met him. I think he went to be with the Lord. Good man. I don’t know if he’s still around. I saw him years ago.

But my point being, I’m not talking about future per se. God in the Old Testament talks about the nations and his love for them and his desire to save them. He doesn’t talk about Israel, the role of Israel in the Old Testament. As I’m preparing to answer your question, because I want to give a context to the Old Testament, because if I just say, well, God says he’s going to destroy Nineveh, oh, look at this. This Old Testament, no, God says to the Israelites, you see what I do to nations? I’m going to do worse to you if you don’t toe the line.

So I know this book is. Look, if I’m making up a book, I’m going to make myself look as good as possible. The people that are the thorn in God’s side, that God has the hardest time with are the Israelites. So that tells me this is a brutally honest record that’s not trying to sugarcoat and make one people severe.

On the contrary, God keeps reminding them, don’t you dare discriminate against the Gentiles. If a Gentile comes to live in your midst, treat him as a native Israelite. He’s not less than you. And I can give you the receipts.

So with that in the context, because what is God’s heart for Assyria? He doesn’t want Assyria to die. Isaiah 19, 23, 25 tells you there’ll be a highway between the land of Egypt and Assyria, and then they’ll come. And then he goes, Assyria, the work of my hands, the book of Jonah is all about God wanting no nation to perish, not even the Assyrians. Because he said to Jonah, give them 40 days. 40 days and the great Sydney will be destroyed. But when they turn to national repentance, God turned back from his wrath.

Jonah’s Anger and God’s Compassion

And then Jonah says something interesting. If you go to Jonah, chapter four, verses one and three, if you open up specifically two, look what he says. He goes, see, I knew this is the kind of God you are. And that’s why I wanted to run, because I want you to destroy them. Because I knew if they repented, you would forgive them. Because that’s the kind of God you are. You don’t want anyone to perish.

His hatred for the Assyrians was so great that he knew if he reached them and they turn, God would spare them. Because God loves all people. And this is the God of the Old Testament. Because people always go to the New Testament. No, I’ll show you from the Old Testament. It’s a same God.

So if you open up Jonah, chapter four, verse one to three, you’re going to see it. So this is the context in which I will put the book of Nahum. Jonah 4. Look at our. And Jonah knows it. Now, when I look at you handsome warriors, I can see why he wanted you guys wiped out. You’re a thorn in the side of his people.

Look what he says. Jonah 4, verses 1 to 3. You can open up just Jonah, chapter 4. Yeah, that’s it. You don’t need to put chapter 4. I think you just put Jonah and then 4. It’s like, man, I can’t keep up with this guy. It’s not my fault you’re not Assyrian brother.

Now watch your. But to Jonah, this seemed very wrong. And he became angry. Angry at what? He didn’t destroy the Ninevites. He didn’t destroy all the Jesus, right? He prayed to the Lord. Isn’t this what I said, Lord, when I was still at home. Meaning? Isn’t that what I reason myself? That if they turned, you would spare them.

Now, why? That is why I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love. A God who relents from sending calamity. Now, Lord, take away my life, for it is better for me to die than to live.

He hit depression that you didn’t wipe out the enemies of my people. You see, the God of the Old Testament doesn’t want the enemies of Israel to be destroyed. Very timely message for today. He wants all peoples to be saved. I want you to see. This is Old Testament. The God of the Old Testament says, I don’t want the nations surrounding Israel to be destroyed. I want them to turn, to be saved. Because I created them and I love them. They’re my creatures. Don’t you dare look down upon them, because they’re not an Israelite.

Jonah is the one who wanted to wipe them out. But then God gives them a lesson, a parable. It’s scorching heat. If you read it. And we won’t need to read all of it. And then he makes the gourd miraculous earth to give him shade, and he’s, ah, comforted. Then he commands a creeping, crawling thing to gnaw it, and it withers away overnight. And then it says that the heat pounded him and he’s like, God, let me die from this heat.

The Lesson of the Plant

Now look what God says. Look, we’re going to read from verse 8. When the sun rose, God provided scorching east wind and the sun blazed on Jonah’s head so that he grew faint. He wanted to die and said, it would be better for me to die than to live because of the heat.

Now watch verse nine. But God said to Jonah, is it right for you to be angry about the plan? You’re concerned that a plant die, huh? A plant. But you didn’t give a damn that over a hundred thousand people were going to die. You had more concern for a plant than a human soul created in my image. That’s what he says, right?

Is it right for you to be angry about the plant? It is, he said. And I’m so angry I wish I was dead because it was, you know, shielding me from the heat. But the Lord said, you have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight.

Now watch. And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than 120,000 people who cannot tell their right hand from their left. And also many animals. You didn’t want me to care for them because they’re your enemies. But doesn’t mean they’re my enemies. Don’t make your enemies my enemy. Just like I created the plant, I own it. I created them. And I didn’t create them for destruction. I created them to live.

See, this is the heart of God. This is God. So when I tell you what he did to the Ninevites, not because he hated them, because God does it to all peoples, he even did it to the Israelites. Their judgment was they were exiled out of the land the first time, the second time because of rejection. Jesus said it, because you rejected me, I’m going to reject you. Temple will be destroyed. Land will be destroyed. For over 1,900 years. They were left in exile.

God’s Impartial Justice

What sin does the Bible say they committed that would have resulted in them being exiled for over 1,900 years? Because the sin that result in destruction of the first temple, it says bloodshed, immorality, idolatry. So then he brought the Babylonians, right? Started around 604. First deportation at 597. Then 586. They burned the temple and destroyed Jerusalem. But he returned them 70 years.

So no matter how great their sin was, it only lasted 70 years. But whatever sin they committed during the second temple was so heinous that God scattered them for 1,900 years. That means their sin during that period was greater than their sin in the first period.

Now what’s the point? I’m trying to show you. God does to Israel what he’ll do to the nations. See, he’s impartial, unbiased and fair. Just because you say you’re an Israelite doesn’t mean I’m going to wink or look over your sin. No, all of you are my creatures. And I’m going to hold you more accountable. Do you know why? Because they don’t know me. You do.

That’s what he says in Amos, chapter three. So I’m going to give Bible here. If they want to argue with me, say, hey, Amos, can you rewrite this? I don’t like what you said. And Amos, chapter three, verse one and two, he says to Israel, of all the families in the earth, I only know you. And that’s why I’m going to punish you for your sins. Amos, chapter three.

Here’s the word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against you, O children, Israel against the whole family which I brought up the land of Egypt, saying, you only have I known of all the families of the earth. Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. No, I’m not going to give you a free pass. Your judgment is going to be worse than the Assyrians who don’t know me.

See, this is the God of the Old Testament. So why did he destroy Nineveh? Because, sadly, God doesn’t have grandchildren. So you can claim the faith, but the faith is yours. It’s not your child. Unless he believes and continues, your blessing won’t be your child’s blessing, because if he turns from the Lord, then that generation will bring wrath.

So although the generation of Jonah repented, the next generation went back to their polytheistic paganism. God says, now I have to scatter you.

The Measure of Sin and Divine Patience

So, number one, they were scattered because God only tolerates so much sin before he brings judgment on a nation and replaces them. This is in scripture. I mean, I can show you. It says, look, why didn’t he, for example, why didn’t he drive out the Canaanites at the time of Abraham? He says it because. Because the sin of the Amorite has not been made complete.

If you go to Genesis 15:16, he says, I’m waiting for their debt ceiling to hit. Genesis 15:16, it says, it, you can open up Genesis 15:16. So he waited 400 years. Now that tells you the mercy and compassion of God. So Genesis 15:16 and the fourth generation, meaning 400 years, in the context, it’s four generations, 100 years. Your descendant will come back here for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.

Warning. There’s so much sin I’ll tolerate from a nation, but I’ll wait patiently to see if you’re going to turn. But he’s already telling them he won’t. They won’t. But I’m a fair God. I don’t just rush to judgment because I don’t want anyone to be destroyed. It’s going to take them 40 years. When I say enough is enough, I’m done. I can’t handle this. 400 years.

You know what that means? Each generation of children grew up to be just as wicked as a generation before. And if you want to know their atrocities, he mentions in Leviticus 18, Leviticus 18. He tells them, this is what the people did in the land, and that’s why the land is throwing them out. And he says, Israel, if you do the same, I’ll do the same to you.

And he says what they did. Bestiality, incest, homosexuality, infanticide. He goes, because of these sins that I put up with for 400 years. I’m disgusted. They got to go, but I’m going to evict you if you do the same thing. It’s in Leviticus 18.

So this is the context of the punishment of all the nations. But who comes first on the list of punishment? The Israelites. Why? Because the greater the blessing, the greater. The greater the accountability. The more you know, the more you’re accountable.

So if the Assyrians didn’t know God like Israel did, yeah, they’ll be punished. But who do you think is going to be punished more severely? If you have two sons and you instruct one son not to do something but you didn’t tell the other one and they both do the thing you don’t want, you’ll be angry with both. But who you’ll be angry with more? The one you told. Right.

God is telling Israel. You’re the ones who are making me more angry than any other nation. Because you know better, they don’t. And you’re supposed to influence them. But what you’re doing is you’re driving them away from me. How are they driving people away from God? When you go worship their God, you know what you’re telling them? My God is not a big deal, because if he was, I wouldn’t be worshiping yours. I like your God better.

So when you do that, what are you telling them? That I’m a God that doesn’t compare to theirs. So this is why he destroys the never.

The Survival of the Assyrian People

But now, why? Well, it’s the opposite. Even though we don’t have a land, the fact that we have been wiped out is a testament of God’s goodness to us. We survived, brothers. We survived. Impossible odds. Not only did we live under the yoke of Rome, then later there came the Zoroastrians. A lot of people don’t know that in the 5th century, even the Church at large ostracized us. They condemned us as heretics.

So when I say us because the Church of our ancestors, what do I mean? This is going to be related to your question. So I have to unpack this. In the four hundreds because of Nestorius. Remember I mentioned Nestorius because he was accused of teaching there are two persons of Christ. The Assyrians were now identified with that teaching. So the Church at large says, you are heretics. You’re not Christians. The hell with you.

So now we didn’t have the backing of the Byzantine Empire, but we’re under the duress of the Persian Empire, then Islam rises. So we had it bad from every angle. So now I’m going to ask you, how do we survive against impossible odds if Christ wasn’t preserving our people?

Do you know at one time in history the largest church in the world was the Syrian Church of the East. This is a fact. We reached all the way to China. They even found Aramaic scripts. That is attributed to the Nestorian Church. But Nestorian Church is the church of your ancestors. My ancestors. This is a testimony that God has not abandoned Assyria because if he did, you wouldn’t be here as an Assyrian speaking your Assyrian mother tongue and the Assyrian church would have been wiped out of the planet.

The Assyrian Question and Future Prospects

PATRICK BET-DAVID: So what is the likelihood that Assyrians get their country back in the middle of Iraq similar to what Israel did? What’s the likelihood?

SAM SHAMOUN: Ah, you’re very… You’re talking to a guy who’s very pessimistic.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, but how was your relationship? I saw you and because we had Marmari here, we had you and we had… Wonderful. Yeah. And we had Jenko here. So great conversations. I’m trying to find a way to put a leadership type event together for Syrians to come together. What happened with you and Jenko?

SAM SHAMOUN: Well, I don’t… Because your platform is huge and people want to find out details. They can, but I want to say something and I know George can listen to it. Two things about George. He’s Christian and he’s Assyrian. And because of that I love him more. So I love him because he’s Christian. You can be Christian, not a sin. And I love you.

He is a passionate young man. He reminds me of me over 20 years ago when… Because I didn’t have… I’m not saying he doesn’t, I’m just saying me. So I didn’t have someone to disciple me. And I was just learning and growing in my faith. Right. So… And I became very passionate.

See, there’s something we call the beginner’s zeal, where you think you’ve discovered something and you become so zealous you want to convert the world, but in so doing you do more damage than good. That was me. That was me back then. That was me. I did a lot of damage because I thought I knew better. Hey man, you’re pagan. What are you doing? Hey, what you got? I didn’t know, but my intention was sincere.

George is a bright young man who loves Jesus Christ and he’s going to grow and be on fire for the Lord. But we got to give him time. Just give him time. Because only God knows what kind of knowledge you’ll have when he’s 53. Remember, I’m 53, so give him some time. There was a misunderstanding and that’s fine.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Have you guys spoken since or…

SAM SHAMOUN: No, not really spoken, but I wouldn’t mind speaking to him because I have no animus towards him. I can’t for two reasons. Number one, because he’s Christian.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: What was the issue?

Church Traditions and Ancient Christianity

SAM SHAMOUN: The issue was about, you know, the traditions of the church. Because if my journey is very complex.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I came out of purely over traditions. That’s all it is.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, it’s these traditions that these ancient churches hold to, you know, like the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ or Mary perpetual virginity. Why do you guys believe it’s not in the Bible? See, that’s where I was 20 years ago.

One thing I can tell you guys, this is a fact. The more you study church history, the more you’re going to see this is a fact before God. I will answer. So I’m lying. The ancient churches that have been there from the beginning, and I’m going to tell you the church of Catholic Church, I know that’s demonized by the world. I don’t care what the world thinks. Syrian Church, Eastern Orthodox or anti Orthodox. These churches have been there from the beginning.

And the fullness of the truth, the correct application of Trinity is found in these churches. Sadly, they’re in schism. I came to that conclusion studying church history, meaning the second, third, fourth centuries of what Christians taught. I was shocked. It troubled me. And people who know me can testify I had a dilemma in my hand.

Either all of these Christians were heretics, which would be blasphemy, because that means Jesus failed the church and that’s blasphemy. Christ said he’d be building his church, the Spirit would be guiding the church. And the apostles would appoint leaders filled with the Spirit to preserve the truth. And Christ taught this will be an unbroken chain. So they cannot be false teachers, because that means then Christ failed.

That means they were the true Christians. But then they taught stuff that as a Protestant I was taught are false heretical doctrines. So that led me in one or two of them. Either they’re false teachers and happening, or my teachings are not ancient, not biblical, because we’re misunderstanding the Bible. And so it took me 10 years to want to just say, you know what, I got to go back to the ancient churches. And so that shocks a lot of people when you’re taught Sola scriptura, Torah scriptura.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: That’s the pure conflict.

SAM SHAMOUN: That’s it.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: There’s nothing more than that. Yeah, I’m a big fan of him. Very big fan.

SAM SHAMOUN: God bless him and preserve him.

Complex Individuals and Divine Purpose

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I’m a big fan of you. I think he is an incredibly… Because when you think about the Assyrian community and you think about Avengers, you said something very interesting earlier, which I fully agree with. You said, you know, if I want to debate an atheist, I’m the wrong guy. Bring somebody else. Because I don’t know nothing about atheism. I didn’t study atheism, but if you bring me against Muslims Quran, I’ve studied it. I’m a good guy to come in, but I’ve no guys that are millionaire Christians who know nothing about the Bible.

And I know, you know, that whole thing that you’re talking about, right? This is a guy that was mainstream youth with Logan Paul in that entire community. As an Assyrian guy who chooses to chooses his faith over fame, walks away, does his thing and is doing his best to be amicable with everybody. I’m so impressed by him, him and his wife, what they’re doing.

And then with you, I see you as an animal. You’re a very unique animal. Very, extremely necessary.

SAM SHAMOUN: Because I’m shaped like a buffalo? Is that what you’re…

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, man. There’s something very different about you. There’s something very different about you. That you’re a complicated human being. No, you’re very complex. Because when I publicly said I want to bring you on, I wish you could see what text messages I get, what things people send me. You have to watch this video. You sure you want to have this gun? Do you know what happened with him in his past? All this stuff that’s sent my way.

SAM SHAMOUN: Right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: And I get it. I mean, you know, I’m not, you know, this guy’s not a representation of this. That guy’s not a representation of this. Listen, I don’t know why God uses complex human beings to do the impossible. I don’t know why, but he’s always done that.

Okay, if you would have told me, you know, who’s going to be the guy that’s going to go up against the establishment. It’s going to be a guy like Trump. I would have said, you know, you’re out of your mind. But he chose him. Okay, Is he a man of faith? Is he going to go out there and, you know, sit with you on a conversation about Bible and he’s going to be able to hang? No, that’s not him. Is he a guy that’s going to be… No, but watch what he’s doing right now with all the different dealings.

I think he chooses complex people. And I think you’re a complicated individual yourself, but brilliant. Those two typically go together. You look like you want to say something now.

God’s Use of Broken Vessels

SAM SHAMOUN: I want to comment. The Bible pretty much tells you why he does that. So no man becomes a center of attention but Christ. The Bible says he takes broken vessels so that people will know the power is not in you, it’s from God. Because God does the impossible with individuals that no one would think would be possible that they could be used so you can get the glory.

This is in First Corinthians 1:18-31, says it right there. God wants to show his glory by taking humans who are oppressed, rejected, looked down upon so that people know that can’t be him. There’s something in him that’s doing it, driving so he gets the glory so that not only does he get the glory, but no man becomes an idol.

See, this is what has been disgusting me on the social media. Everyone who has some type of gifting in the eyes of others draws a cult following. And this is wicked and evil. God doesn’t want cult of personality, he doesn’t want idols. He wants you not to focus on the person because he’s going to disappoint. I’ll disappoint you, right?

In fact, even now as you’re talking about it, as I said coming to this broadcast, I’ve never been attacked spiritually in my life than prior to this event. Stuff of my past, my ex-wife, lies and slander being used to discredit me. That hasn’t happened to me in years. There’s something about you and your platform that Satan came after me. I got so tired, I almost wanted to give in. I said, “Man, I shouldn’t be here.” It was that bad. So the warfare is real because we are imperfect.

Biblical Heroes Were Sinners Too

In fact, if you read the Bible, the greatest characters of the Bible are some of the worst sinners imaginable. You go look at David. David committed adultery, murdered the man to cover up his sin. Go look at Solomon. Go look at it because God is telling you, look, your eyes shouldn’t be on them. They’re flesh like you. They’ll disappoint you.

Your eyes be on me who works through sinners to give you hope that if this sinner can be forgiven and be used, I can use you too. And secondly, as long as you keep your eye on me, I will exalt you. But if you exalt yourself, I will have to humble you. Because I’m not putting you in the business to have people be your followers. I’m putting you in the business to make them followers of Jesus Christ.

Paul’s Example of Humility

And I’m going to give you a principle from Second Corinthians where Paul says he was afraid he was getting puffed up because Paul was a super apostle. He did more miracles. He says that I’ve done more miracles than the other apostles. He wasn’t boasting and I reached more people. But then he says something, this is why he’s my hero. When I read Paul, man, he’s my hero. I can’t hold his sandals and he was a maggot in comparison to Christ.

But look what he says there in Second Corinthians 12. I mean the man, he just wanted to be forgotten and wanted everyone to see Jesus. He didn’t want you to focus on him. Stop focusing on me. Focus on the Lord who loves me and saved me and gave me what I don’t deserve.

Here, Second Corinthians 12, look at 6 to 10 what he says. Now, he’s talking about the context as he’s talking about a man and he’s talking about himself, by the way. But he’s talking in third person because he doesn’t want attention. He goes, “I know a man, whether in the body or not, I don’t know. Did I leave my body or my body?” Who 14 years earlier was caught up to the third heaven. It’s him, but he doesn’t want to say it’s him. But he doesn’t know, did God take me in my body or is it an out of body experience? It doesn’t matter. He saw inexpressible things, things that cannot be expressed.

Now look what he says. He gives it away, basically. “For though I might desire to boast, I will not be a fool, for I’ll speak the truth, but I refrain.” Here’s the key. “Lest anyone should think of me above what he sees me to be or hears from me.” See that line right there? I don’t want anyone to make me a superstar. So I fear when I tell you the things I’ve done, you’re going to idolize me. I don’t want you to idolize me.

See, that’s why I have to be careful what I say lest I impress you to focus on me and I will disappoint you. That’s what he’s saying. I don’t know of any Christian, myself, I disappointed so many people. I don’t know if I’m right. I always think I’m right. They’re wrong. But that’s the other side too. They’re right. We’re just biased.

Paul’s Thorn in the Flesh

Now watch what he says. Why does sometimes God allow you to struggle with demons? Here’s the wisdom of God. “Unless I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of revelation.” Meaning unless I thought I was a super Christian because I was getting so much revelation, more than Peter and John. Lest I feel, look at me, I’m the man.

So when people tell me I’m brilliant, it’s not that I’m trying to be fake humble. I don’t want to believe it because I’m afraid I’ll get puffed up. You understand? Because the same gift that God gave me, he can take it away. But here I want to not believe. I want to finish this.

“A thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this, I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.” God, I can’t handle this. Remove this agent of Satan. He doesn’t tell us how Satan’s attacking him, but Satan attacks, but he doesn’t tell us how. Was it a disease? It doesn’t say. He goes, but God, I can’t handle it.

Look at Jesus’s response. “I pleaded with the Lord three times to depart from me. And he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.'” Now, the depth of that one statement. My favor is all you need to endure. I’m not going to deliver you, but I won’t let it consume you. I will preserve you through it, but I’m not going to take you out of it. You know why? Because I want you to know you’re nothing without me. When you realize how weak you are, then you’re going to appreciate it’s my power. It’s not you. That’s the wisdom of Christ.

And that’s why he says, “Therefore most gladly I will boast in my infirmities.” I won’t talk about how great I am. I’m going to talk about how weak and wicked and useless I am. Why? So that you know it’s the power of Christ that’s giving me the grace to do this.

“Therefore, I take pleasure in infirmities and reproaches and needs and persecutions and distresses for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.” Then I know where my strength lies. Not in me, not in my money, not in my political connections. That’s all going to go. But if you have Jesus, that’s forever.

See, this is why sometimes we go through hell to remind you, hey, Patrick, get off that horse. I’m not saying get off that horse. You are what you are because I was pleased to put you in the right circumstances. But I can take it away.

Closing Remarks

PATRICK BET-DAVID: I fully believe that. This was great. I wish I had more time. I got 11:30 meeting I got to run to. The guys are texting me. I would like to do another one with you because I probably have 20 other topics I haven’t gone into. But this was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. Where can people—I do think you’re on Manect. Did you guys talk about Manect?

SAM SHAMOUN: They want to set me up on that.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Okay, so we’re going to put the link below for Manect. I’m sure a lot of people are going to want to talk to you. And then where would you like people to go to to learn more about you?

SAM SHAMOUN: That’s a good question. If they can handle political incorrectness and a lot of back and forth, they can go to Shamounian, S-H-A-M-O-U-N-I-A-N. Like I said, it’s going to be a lot of—

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is it a website?

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah, no, it’s YouTube channel. But like I said, a lot of controversial issues, things coming up that unfortunately has to come up. But there it is. See that? That’s my twin brother right there.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Is it really?

SAM SHAMOUN: No, I’m joking. Yeah, right.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: Put the link below Rob for folks to go learn more about you. I look forward to our next one. Truly, I look forward to it. This was an amazing conversation. I’m so glad we did it. I’m glad you kept your word and came down because I know we’ve been trying to do this for a long time.

SAM SHAMOUN: Yeah. But thank the Lord. And if you have more questions, I’m here tomorrow or whatever day.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: No, we’ll figure it out.

SAM SHAMOUN: As long as Vinny’s here doing stand up comedy but sitting down, brother, I will.

PATRICK BET-DAVID: All right, take care, buddy. Bye bye, bye bye.

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