Wisdom From North: Robert Edward Grant Interview (Transcript)

And of course, the word for Taurus is bull. It’s a bull. We know the meaning is the bull. And that’s the symbol that’s in the sky. But also, is that why the word Aleph, which means bull in Hebrew, as well as in many of the Semitic languages — Arabic, especially as well — Aleph means bull. And Aleph also means the number 1. So it’s the position of 1 o’clock.

So then what’s the next symbol? Gemini, which is the next sign in the zodiac. It’s the number 2 in Roman numerals. So we go from 0 o’clock, which is Aries, and then 1 o’clock around the clock is Taurus, which is Aleph, the number 1, or Alpha. The number 2 in Roman numerals is Gemini. It’s two twins. The number 3, the third position, 3 o’clock, would be Cancer. And that’s why the shape of Cancer is a 6 and a 9. 9 minus 6 equals 3. It’s a clock. Do you see what I’m talking about?

And this is why at the very end of the year — because it starts in April as well — the very end of the year, we have the number 10 for December. Ever wondered why the 8th month is August in our calendar, but actually we call October the number 8 — “oct.” September is 7, October is 8, November is 9, and diciembre, or December, is 10. It’s because the whole calendar is shifted. So the zodiac is a clock.

But then what people all understand is that, yes, we go forward in time. So April is followed by May, is followed by June, is followed by July, is followed by August. And each of the signs in the zodiac are following like that. But what we don’t realize all the time is that there’s a long cycle as well. And the long cycle goes the opposite direction. And that’s called precession.

So what I just described to you is procession of the zodiac. But now there’s a precession of the zodiac. That takes a long cycle — a 24,000 to 26,000 year cycle. And that long cycle is going backwards. So 2,000 years ago, we began an era, or an aeon, referred to as Pisces. And then Pisces is followed now by Aquarius. But wait a minute — that’s backwards, isn’t it? And the one before Pisces was Aries. And the one before Aries was Taurus. So every 2,000 or so years, we have a different aeonic cycle. And that’s going exactly backwards.

So that means that as we go forward in time with the procession of the equinoctial cycle, we’re also going backwards in the larger cycle. It’s like one of those geometric shapes that look like DNA almost. And they go up, and you can see the inner lumen going up as it rotates around, but then the outer one is going down. So it’s going up and coming down at the same time, going up and coming down at the same time. That’s exactly what we’re doing. So as we go forward in time, we’re also going equally backward in time — just in a longer cycle. That means that time is going both forward and backwards at the same time.

What Does This Mean for You and Me?

JANNECKE ØINÆS: May I jump in? What does that really mean for you and me?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: It means that there’s no such thing as what we consider linear time. And it also means that, yes, you’ve had a lifetime in this lifetime where you’ve gone forward because you live on average 75 to 80 years. But that’s only one degree of the large cycle of time. That’s kind of amazing too, isn’t it? One degree of the large cycle of time is 72 years. So this 26,000-year cycle — one degree of its turn is one lifetime.

So we just don’t live long enough to see the pattern of the recursion, and how everything comes back to the beginning and it cycles over and over again. So that means that you’ve had many lifetimes, and those many lifetimes are actually connected through time, and they’re all happening simultaneous to now. It means that those many lifetimes are all connected to now, and what you’re experiencing is a moment in time where it’s not that you are experiencing time. Time is experiencing you.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Interesting. Does that mean that I have a clear destiny? Where does destiny come in here? And my free choice?

Destiny, Free Will, and the Higher Self

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah, it means you absolutely — I believe you absolutely have destiny. And what we call destiny is just the free will of you as your higher self. So imagine that there’s someone — it’s you still — that is a higher version of you. Call it your oversoul. You could call it a God figure. And this higher version of you has decided exactly what you want to experience.

And why is it experiencing through you? Why does it do this? Well, because an eye can’t see itself without the aid of a mirror. A light cannot illuminate itself. A fire can’t burn itself. A finger can’t touch itself at its very tip. And so as a result, consciousness also cannot experience itself without dividing itself into mirrors, and we are those mirrors.

And as a higher self, what’s the one thing that you cannot experience? If you’re a god, if you’re a deity, what’s the one thing you can’t experience? You can’t experience limitation. You cannot experience limitation. If you’re infinite, you’re omniscient, you’re omnipotent, you’re omnipresent, you don’t even know what it’s like to ask a question that you don’t already know the answer to. You follow my questioning?

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Nature of Limitation and the Higher Self

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: So it’s like, if you don’t know what it’s like to ask a question without already knowing the answer, then you’re missing out on a big part of life and life experience. You’re missing out on curiosity. You don’t even get to experience curiosity. And what a beautiful thing curiosity is.

So all of these aspects of limitation must also be experienced by one source creator, by you in your higher self capacity. So you divide yourself across time, you create a time construct, and you create an avatar, this flesh suit that you have, this body, to experience limitation. And each time you experience it differently because you have different conditioning biases, it will be a different experience for you in your higher self capacity.

So it sends you down here to experience these experiences of limitation so that it can increase its empathy and it can continue to learn. It can learn through its limitation because if you’re infinite, you have some limit on what you can learn. It becomes a paradox. As an infinite being, you can’t learn what it’s like to be limited, so that means you’re not really infinite. It’s an inverse.

So that’s what we’re here to do. We’re here to learn limitation for our higher selves. So our higher selves chooses a path for us, and creates us as an avatar, and we experience it through time. And then the game is to learn as the avatar how to come back to yourself and realize that you’ve been making it all along and that you are the higher self. You’ve just had forgetfulness or amnesia placed upon you.

So as you remember more and more, you can return closer and closer back to your higher self. And also connect to all your other lifetimes that are happening simultaneous to now.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: And these other lifetimes, would you say that is different personalities or different Roberts and different Janneckes? Because what about déjà vu, where I feel I’ve experienced this before? That would point to my life, not as another incarnation.

Soul DNA and Pattern Recognition

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Right. I mean, you can experience déjà vu. Absolutely. You can experience feelings that you’ve been here before, you’ve done something else before like this. And these are things that your subconscious mind or your unconscious is trying to talk to you through. That’s what’s happening. It could be that it’s from another lifetime, or it could be another timeline.

But the truth is that in some way, shape, or form, you have created all of it. So it’s not a different Robert, it’s just a different form of your higher self. So let’s say your higher self is an entity as a consciousness. And in that context, it wants to feel what it’s like to be Robert. It wants to feel what it’s like to be Leonardo da Vinci. It wants to feel what it’s like to be Nikola Tesla. Or what it’s like to be you, Jannecke. And you could experience all of these different experiences, but you still have the same soul DNA.

And I believe all of your lifetimes are embedded within your DNA. They’re all part of you. They’re just different dimensions of you happening simultaneous to now. So as you go throughout your life, that means you associate less and less with your avatar that you have here right now. And you realize that, yes, I’m Robert. Yes, I’m Jannecke. But I’m also a higher self that chose a soul’s journey. And my soul’s journey has certain things to learn.

And the way you realize your mission and your path is you start to realize by pattern recognition all the things you keep experiencing over and over and over again. Because that’s going to tell you what you came here to learn, to experience, to remember.

So if you’re here experiencing the same things, like for me, it was betrayal. I kept experiencing betrayal over and over and over again. And so the way I could learn what it is that I’m here to learn is by understanding that betrayal has its opposite. And the opposite of betrayal is unconditional love. So if I came here to Earth to learn unconditional love, then I’m going to experience its opposite until I’ve learned how to accept its opposite. And until I’ve learned how to accept betrayal, I have not yet learned unconditional love.

The U Inverse: The World as a Mirror

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah, that makes sense. I’ve heard you talk about the U inverse. Is that what you’re referring to now, that everything that happens is a mirror of you, of me?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yes, yes, that’s right. It’s a U inverse. Everything that happens is a mirror of you. It’s you projected to the outer world, and you’re experiencing yourself in this recursive pattern. And every polarity that we experience, good and evil, light and dark, these are all just varying degrees of recursion. Recursion is like a mirror reflection through time.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: So what about the collective then? Everything we’re experiencing collectively, how would I — where would I put that if it’s a mirror of me, but still I’m seeing what’s happening out there with other people? Like, what’s my responsibility in that, or what is my creation in that?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: So first of all, I think this is one of the things that people don’t realize is that we don’t experience the Earth or the world as it is. We experience it as we are. You and I could have the exact same experience on a roller coaster. Maybe I love roller coasters and maybe you don’t like roller coasters. And so you could have a horrible time on the roller coaster. We had the exact same experience, but we’re going to remember it very differently. That’s what life is. We don’t experience the world as it is.

And we tend to believe that there’s some objective truth. There really isn’t an objective truth because everyone’s seeing the world from their own individualized perspective. It’s an angle of perception and perspective. And so we tend to think that the things that I like that are good for me are the things that are good for everyone. But that’s not necessarily the case.

And this is how we end up in situations throughout time. You have a shepherd somewhere in the Middle East, who has a flock, and his side of the hill is burned by the sun. It has no shade. Whereas his next-door neighbor’s side is in the shade. And so when it’s a hot summer, he has more grass that doesn’t all just get burned by the sun. And so his flocks of sheep have somewhere to eat and something to eat.

So the next thing that happens very often is that we find differences in each other to justify things. We say, “The God he worships is a different God than mine. So last night in my dream, my God came to me and told me to kill him and take his land and consecrate it to my God.” And that’s the righteous thing to do. You see what I’m saying? We justify any end and any means to get what we want, and we call it ethical choice. It’s not actually ethics. It’s what we wanted. And this is extended to governments. It’s extended to principalities, to monarchies. It’s extended to everything. And we’ve forgotten this.

So the outer world around us is literally a projection. It’s not exactly what it is objectively. There is no objectivity from that perspective. Even if we saw somebody get murdered on the street and there were 30 eyewitnesses to the murder, you take 30 eyewitnesses to the courtroom, you’re going to have 30 different accounts on what happened. And some of them will be radically different. And in some of those accounts, it will be the victim’s fault that he was murdered. Because there’s always some other circumstance that someone didn’t see.

I’m just trying to point out that what you experience in the world around you is already your U inverse. It’s no one else’s because no one else sees it just like you.

Coming Home to Yourself

JANNECKE ØINÆS: And when we want to then come home to ourselves — you mentioned that — how do we do that? Where do we start? Is it about the realization? Is it about that aha moment, “now I get it”? But where does that come from? Does that come from practice, or does it come from bliss? It just happens to some people. And how have you, if you have come to that realization or that knowing — because intellectual knowing takes you only that far.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah. In fact, it’s not about the intellect at all. At a certain level, I think the intellect has a purpose. It has a very important purpose. And we have 4 pillars inside our brain. You could think of the zodiac as being a reflection. The U inverse is also a reflection of what’s inside of us.

So if you took an oval shape and put it on top of your brain, you would realize that the different parts of the brain where you have your seats of learning — how we learn and what we learn — are actually directly associated with our anatomy. And also the astrology is matching it.

So we have something called the cerebrum. The cerebrum is the ram. It’s the Aries. The cerebellum is the bull. You can keep going through the brain. The amygdala is related to the scorpion. The medulla oblongata, the shape that it comes off of, like off of the third eye, this little squiggly shape — that’s the medulla oblongata. That’s the scorpion’s tail. Everything that we have in astrology is actually showing up as anatomical inside the brain.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Wow.

Maya: The Dream of Consciousness

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: So now what does that mean? Okay, that’s kind of mind-blowing because you’re like, “Whoa, so are we just inside of our brain?” In a way, kind of, yeah. We’re experiencing it through time. Consciousness has made a dream for us, and we call this dream Maya. And what is Maya backwards? How would you pronounce Maya backwards? “I am.”

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah, “I am.” Yeah, “I am.”

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Maya, ayam. Is that a coincidence? I don’t believe in coincidences anymore.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Me neither anymore.

The Four Fixed Signs and Brain Balance

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: So we’re in a dream and we’re waking up from the dream. And so just by me telling you this, it’s going to start waking you up from this dream even more. Right?

So what happens is that you have these 4 seats in your brain that would be where the fixed signs of the zodiac are. The fixed signs are the Taurus, the Scorpion, its opposite, the Lion, which is Leo, and Aquarius, the man. These are the four faces that show up on the Ark of the Covenant. The face of the man, the face of the bull, the face of the ox, and the face of the eagle, which is Scorpion.

So the ancient symbol for the scorpion, and for the tribe that was related to this, was the eagle. So the 12 tribes of Israel also follow the 12 zodiac signs. And why scorpion? Scorpion goes from starting off as a scorpion, the medulla oblongata, and then it starts to rise. It becomes a snake, the Kundalini rising. And then when it becomes a snake, it then turns into an eagle. And the snake becomes a bird. That’s why it has the eagle as its ancient representation. But the eagle is not the last place it stops. It becomes a phoenix. And then from the phoenix, it turns into the dragon. So these are the symbols of Scorpio as it goes through its redemption.

And we think of Satan as sort of Scorpio. Everything evil is like somehow related to the scorpion of the zodiac signs, even though Scorpio people are very nice. I have no issue there, but I’m just saying symbolically, that’s the way it’s always been.

So the 4 fixed signs are like locations of the brain that we need to strengthen and be more robust in. But they must be done in balance. And so what are these things? Well, the analytical mind is going to relate to the Taurus, the bull. That’s the mathematics, the mathematical aspects. You have to build up mathematics. You have to build up through a spiral inside your own brain so that you have no area of your brain that is hypertrophied or atrophied, that has no work, that it’s not been doing anything.

So that means you need to find your inner artist. The inner musician as well needs to come out. The inner scientist. And then also the art side is going to be associated more with the feeling aspects, the intuition side, the right brain. So the front part of the right brain is going to be music. Its opposite is mathematics on the left brain. The back part of the brain is going to be more related to the visual arts, next to the occipital lobe, where we see our vision coming in. And then the other side of that’s going to be the material sciences.

So these 4 aspects — material sciences, the natural sciences, mathematics, then music, its opposite, and then the visual arts — those things all have to be aligned and buttressed. They have to be strong. So what we’ve been doing in school is we’ve been learning through specialization, how to atrophy those other sections. We shouldn’t atrophy them because in order for us to get perfected hemisynchronization of our brain, the brain muscle has to be in balance. That means if you study too much physics and you don’t do enough music or art, you’re going to be out of balance and you can’t connect to the heart.

Logos, Pathos, and the Heart-Brain Connection

The whole goal of this is to get the brain as an antenna so that it can become seated and anchored inside the heart field, because the brain only works properly when it’s operating inside of the pathos. The logos can only work properly when it’s working inside of the pathos. Logos and pathos. The pathos creates a larger field. The heart field is the largest field we have. And that heart field has to expand to envelop our logos. And that helps to give us the right discernment on what things are going to be closest to our highest authenticity.

So that’s what I would say to you — it’s not about just studying in school and learning these different things to become intellectual, but it’s also out of balance if you have no intellect and you’re untethered. So someone who is only connected to their heart field and not at all connected to their brain field, the logos, they can’t manifest things. They end up not being able to — they’re always broke. They’re always in a different cycle. And they’re always talking about things that never get grounded and brought down to earth. It’s always a dream state. And so that’s also not balanced. So both must be tethered to each other.

And this is, of course, also the balance of masculine and feminine energy. Because within the logos and pathos archetypes is also the masculine and the feminine archetype. And that’s where divine masculine and divine feminine have to come together. The unification is not the unification outside of us that we’re focused on. The way we change the world is by changing ourselves within. And then the outer world reflects a new reality. When you change the way you see things, the things you see will change. When you’ve united internally the masculine and feminine, then the masculine and feminine will become united in your external world.

The Magic of the Number 7

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Beautiful. HeartMath Institute also talks about this. I think that is sort of the same, that you need this heart-brain coherence, that they’re working together. And many speak about how we need wisdom and we need love. We cannot just have love. We also need wisdom.

And it’s so fascinating to me how there are so many patterns in the universe. And I know you’re a mathematician. And I’ve just been stunned by all the coincidences in numbers, for instance. And I know you know tons about this. For instance, in the fairy tales, we see the number 7 all the time. Notice that — 7 colors, 7 days, 7 scales in notes on the scale. Why does that 7 come back again and again? And then you have 8, that’s the octave, like you start all over again. And then I heard in Law of One material that they also talk about an octave. That’s where you sort of finish the evolution of the soul. But it’s so many layers above that. So it’s just so vast.

So to have a specific question here, what do you know about the number 7? Is that like some mystical, magical number in the universe?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: The number 7 is very, very much a special number. We have it referenced in the Bible, right in Genesis, in the very beginning. It’s like the 7 days of the week, and on the 7th day was the day of rest, after the 6 days of creation. And I see it as a scale of music. So think of it as the white keys on the piano keyboard. So we’ve got 7 white keys and 5 black keys within an octave. So the 12th note then becomes the 13th, and the 13th is coming back to the same note that it started with. And that’s exactly the same as this 1 through 12 o’clock. And then 13 just becomes the next cycle of 1. You follow what I’m saying?

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah, there’s such a vast intelligence.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah, it’s just like these 7 notes of the piano keyboard are creating the octave, and we’re missing the black keys, is all. So that’s why I directly connect the number 12 and the number 13 by association to the number 7, because it’s just looking at it two different ways. And maybe that’s why we have 7 days in a week and 24 hours in the day, because the 12 is just showing up as this recursive cycle again of 12 to create 24, which is the multiple of 12. So to me, the number 7 is a number that speaks to the divinity. It’s the octave of existence. 7 is the last note in the octave of the white keys. That’s why it’s the seventh day of rest.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: So, for instance, if we see that in our reality, like 7 everywhere, is that a sign, perhaps?

Numbers as Messages from Your Higher Self

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Whatever numbers you see over and over and over again, it is telling you a message. This is the way the unconscious mind or your higher self speaks to you. And that’s when it starts to wake up. It’s like an alarm clock that you set as the higher self. You determine, okay, Jannecke is going to wake up at this point in time, and it’s not going to be an abrupt awakening. You know how they have those things now where you can wake up and it will open the curtains in your room so that you have the natural sunlight to help you wake up in the morning? And that’s the best way to feel refreshed, rather than being in black darkness and then all of a sudden the alarm turns on and your adrenaline shoots up and you don’t feel very good.

Well, basically what your higher self did is it gave you a time-released alarm. And your time-released alarm starts by showing you the numbers over and over and over again. It might be license plates that you see — how is that possible? And it starts to make you ask questions. How come I keep seeing these same numbers again and again and again? What is going on? The statistical probability doesn’t make sense. Somehow I keep seeing the number 7 again and again and again. It’s somehow familiar to me, familiar like I’m a child. And it makes me feel at home somehow. Sometimes I could see the number 7 and I realize that God is with me. And I somehow feel comforted that everything’s going to be okay. And I’m sure you’ve experienced things like this. So yes, that’s the point. It’s your higher self speaking to you.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: So that’s a good sign.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: It’s a good sign. Yeah, absolutely. It’s a good sign. And you have to also take heart in the fact that there’s really no mistakes in this lifetime.

Coincidences, Patterns, and Seeing the Future

JANNECKE ØINÆS: I was going to ask you about that. Are there any coincidences? Is anything random?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I used to believe in coincidence until I finally realized that maybe I was just too close to the tree to see the forest. And I had to zoom out further and further and further. And as I zoom farther and farther out, then I start realizing there was a pattern there all along. I just didn’t see the pattern until later in life. And maybe everything we call coincidence is just an encryption left by your higher self. The pattern’s there, but until we raise our consciousness and are intended to wake up and see it, we won’t be able to fully see it.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: I want to jump to you seeing the future and saying perhaps we all can do that. I don’t feel I can sitting here with you now, but I’ve had moments in dreams. For instance, I was going to a doctor’s appointment and then I dreamed about how this doctor’s appointment is being rescheduled and there’s so much fuss about it. And then I wake up in the morning and I see a text message where it says that the doctor is sick and we need to reschedule. So I got that information, but that was in a dream state, and I’ve experienced that before, but never feeling like I’m sitting here now seeing the future.

But I’m curious — when you see the future, do we have good times to look forward to, or perhaps are there different timelines you’re seeing that are different potentials? We hear that we’re in a big shift of consciousness. Some are saying chaos is coming because things have to come up from the shadow so we can see them and release them. So I’m curious, what do you see, if you want to share?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: What do I see coming for the future? Is that your question?

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah.

Judgment, Self-Acceptance, and the Shift in Human Consciousness

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I mean, look, I think we’re going through a massive shift right now. I think everyone’s waking up to what I’m talking about, and not everyone. Some people are not waking up because they’re not scheduled to wake up. And in a way, that’s part of the whole exercise, right? There has to be polarity in everything. For every action, there must be an equal opposite reaction.

And so what’s happening now is the world is sort of splitting into two experiences. One experience is one of more and more judgment, more and more pain, more and more suffering, more and more experiencing of that judgment and believing that you can change it and fix it. What I’m saying, we can’t change people outside of us. It cracks me up when people are in the spiritual world and they often talk about how they’re going to change somebody else or how, how can we change the rest of the collective to make everyone else more conscious? Well, the only way to do that is by changing yourself and making yourself more conscious.

You can’t change people. That’s one thing I’ve learned in life. You can’t change people. They can only change themselves. And the more you worry about someone else’s level of consciousness and the more you worry about what someone else is or is not doing, the less evolved you are. The way that you evolve is by changing yourself within. And realizing that you are the master of your fate. You’re the captain of your soul. Nobody else.

If you want to see more love in the world, then be the love you want to see in the world. If you want to see more compassion, then be the compassion. If you want to see more kindness, then be the kindness. Don’t keep bitching about other people not having it. And the common denominator is this: if you’re surrounded by assholes, then you’re the asshole. Because if you’re judging everybody as assholes around you, you’re resonating at the frequency of asshole. And the frequency of asshole is attracting assholes.

So when people complain about being surrounded by arrogant people or being surrounded by narcissists or whatever, it’s like they have to look within and realize that you don’t change the world by changing the world outside of you. And every journey you’ve been on has been a journey within. You just didn’t remember it. You thought that it was an outer world experience and that they’re all separate from you. They’re not separate from you. No one’s separate from you. You are everything.

So it’s easy for us to complain about living in the world and to say, oh, the world is not kind enough. It’s not good enough. It’s not this enough. It’s not whatever — you place the adjective on it. But very few people would actually say, I’m not kind enough. I’m not loving enough. Everyone sees the world as they are, not as the world actually is.

And so we then justify all of our actions by saying, I’m doing all these things. And then we take a selfie and we say, oh, look, I’m going to stop deforestation. And the only thing you do by fighting against all the deforesting corporations is cause more deforestation in your world. Because everything you judge, you will attract over and over and over again. It will become an endless loop.

That’s why the big difference between going into one Earth versus going into the other is the level of your judgment. If you are outside of judgment, then your world can become loving, accepting, beautiful. The more you judge the outer world, the more it will judge you back. You attract everything you judge until you no longer judge what you attracted, period.

So this is how the world is changing. People that are learning to not judge themselves and not judge the outer world around them, to accept it as it is. The game of this life, the Maya game, is to fall in love with the I Am. It’s to learn to fall in love with this world just as it is, without condition. It is not to judge it into submission. It is not to try to change it. You will fight an uphill battle and it will never work. You will only get more and more of the thing you fight against by judging it.

That is the separation between worlds. So people that say that they’re spiritual and are still stuck in judgment, then they’re only going to experience more and more of that judgment, and it will become more and more like a hellish existence.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Do you feel that you manage that? To love the world as it is today?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I try my best. I try my best. And I know that the best way I have to measure that — and this is going to sound funny, but it’s really true — is by the degree to which I can accept myself. So you could say that the difficulty of your world around you is directly tied to the level of your own self-acceptance. That’s deep.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Well, I think you’re right. I’m writing a book about self-love, so I’m convinced, right?

Self-Love, Narcissism, and the Careers We Choose

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: So think about that. That’s the opposite of what many people would say. No, no, that’s self-service to self. No, it’s not. When you’re willing to love yourself — look, I don’t believe the world’s a difficult place because people hate each other. I believe the world can be a difficult place because people hate themselves. And it’s that self-loathing that becomes narcissism.

Narcissism is not true self-love. It’s loving a very narrow band of aspects of yourself that you want to project, and you believe only you know about your negative side, so you hide them all. And in this context, you’re always right. I’m not afraid of people that have darkness. Everyone’s got darkness. I’m only afraid of people that believe they have no darkness. That’s the narcissism because it forms their projection.

So then you can look at every career that people choose. And these types of comments I make don’t make me popular, but I’m going to say them anyway. You could look at anybody’s job, whether they’re a policeman — why is a policeman so often depicted in films as being potentially corruptible? Maybe the reason why he chose to be a policeman is because he wanted to fight himself within, the inner criminal within him. So then his world, when you become a policeman, the whole outer world becomes full of criminals.

So you could say that the careers that we’ve chosen literally become our seat of judgment, how we see the world. Think about that. So when you’re a doctor, then everybody’s sick. We start becoming the hammer that seeks out the nail of our own confirmation bias. And when you’re a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

So you start to ask yourself the question, well, does that mean all the things that I wanted to do — I wanted to go into certain areas so I could help. Yes, you can help, but don’t fight. So if you want to stop deforestation, then go plant trees. Don’t do it with a selfie. We’re moving now from an age of human doing into an age of human being. AI is going to force this upon us whether we like it or not.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: And is that a good thing?

The Mirror of the Outer World

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I think we should be human beings. I think the way we’ve been living our lives is the way that it was lived during the Piscean Age. During the Age of Pisces, we toiled, we worked, we worked like crazy. The last 6,000 years we’ve had to work by the sweat of our brow. But that’s not what it means to be a human being. That’s a human doing. And I believe we’re now moving into an age where, yeah, we should be doing less work. And we need to stop associating what we do with who we are.

Now, that’s a big problem more for the United States and for America than it is for Europe. I think Europeans — I lived in Europe for many years — and it’s almost insulting to ask someone what they do in certain places. Even though they’re still sizing you up from a different perspective. But in my world, it’s not that there’s a there at all, or that they, they doesn’t exist. It’s just you. So the experiences that you have when you start looking at the world through the lens of, wait, my higher self put me in this avatar suit to experience life. And I’ve got all these conditioning biases of which biases are showing up in my outer world. And I experience all the things that I want to learn through their opposites, like a mirror.

Learning Through the Mirror

You know, it’s kind of hard. This is kind of a funny, weird thing about me, but when I lived in Tokyo, Japan, I learned how to cut my own hair. And the reason why I did that is because I would learn all the words in the dictionary — the Japanese dictionary — for how to cut hair perfectly. But no matter what I did, I’d go to the barber shops, I could go to any different barber shop in Tokyo and I’d end up coming out with the exact same Japanese bowl cut, because that’s just the only hairstyle. So I was like, oh my gosh.

So finally, I asked my then wife to cut my hair and she started cutting my hair. And of course, it became a problem when we got divorced because she cut my hair all the time. And so we got divorced. I was like, oh, what am I going to do now? I have to start going to a barbershop. And I realized that I save so much time by not going to barbershops.

It’s kind of like if you ever look — they do the math where they say if you don’t have to buy car insurance for your car because you just own your car outright and you don’t have a loan on it or something like that, you could save millions of dollars over your lifetime. It’s like some crazy amount of money. You could retire just on that. And not paying car insurance for the special car insurance that you need when someone else owns your car in truth, because it’s on loan.

And so I started doing that math on haircuts. And I started realizing, oh my gosh, I could save so much money. And this is me as a tourist. I could save so much money if I don’t get haircuts at barbershops and I can do it anytime. If I need a haircut, I don’t have to worry about scheduling in advance. I could just cut it the night before at like 2 o’clock in the morning and no one knows.

But the problem is, my wife and I split up. And so I had to learn how to cut my own hair. So I started cutting my own hair, which was hard in the beginning. It was hard because everything’s backwards in the mirror. Everything was backwards. And so I was using the mirror and I’m trying to do this. Now it’s easier with an iPhone. I can at least pick up my iPhone and see the back and kind of see, and I know everything’s backwards in the mirror so I can cut it and not mess it up really badly. And I had probably trial and error about 10 times where people would say, “Dude, you got a really bad haircut in the back.” I’m like, yeah, I know. But it was better for me to learn through the pain than to figure out how much you have to pay to go get it. I don’t even know how much a haircut costs now. So ever since, I’ve been cutting my own hair.

Everything Is Backwards in the Mirror

And the reason I bring up that story is because it’s difficult to learn how to do things when it’s in the mirror. So what we’ve been thinking is that the outer world is not a mirror, but actually we’ve been living in the outer world and everything’s backwards. So you have to finally realize that it’s backwards.

If I want to stop experiencing betrayal, then I need to learn how to accept that betrayal exists. And the moment I accept that betrayal exists, I no longer have to experience betrayal anymore. And in the beginning, in the mirror, I used to think, oh, there’s betrayal. I need to fight that betrayal. I need to come down hard on these people, or someone’s attacking me, I need to fight back. All that happens when you fight back is you create more of the thing you’re fighting.

Responding to Criticism With Awareness

I’ll give you an example of what I experienced just this week. From time to time, I have people that have been very positive with me before, and then all of a sudden they get triggered by something. And then all of a sudden they decide to do a negative post on me. So I had someone do a negative post on me. It’s okay. Look, I’m an influencer. I have 1.5 million followers on social media. So yes, you set yourself up for that, and that’s okay. And so he did a negative post on me. It wasn’t terribly rude and it wasn’t terribly mean, but it was still something that in my younger years I would have been bothered by because I had considered this person to be a friend. I even did things to help them.

So instead of me looking at it from the standpoint of, gosh, why did this guy just do this kind of semi-mean thing — he could have at least called me just to tell me, if he had the courage to do that — I could look at it and say, why am I sending this to myself? Not why did something happen to me.

And then how I would normally react — because yes, I’m a Taurus, but I have a Scorpio as my opposite sign. That means my shadow character is a scorpion. People have known for a long time, when I was in business, it’s like, I’m the best friend to have in the world. But if you cross me, I started getting a reputation where it was like, you don’t want to see Robert angry. And actually the truth is most people never see me angry. The worst thing you’re going to get is if I go silent. That’s like the worst. Because then I put you in an ice bucket and then I just start imagining a world without you crossing my path ever again. That’s the place that I would go to. I’m just like, imagine a world and manifest a world where I’m never going to see you again. I’m never going to interact with you again. You won’t exist in my world anymore. I’d literally do that. They’d still be in the world. They’d still be around doing their thing. But they would never cross paths with me again because they hurt me bad enough.

And so speaking from a moment of vulnerability, I had to look at this situation and say, okay, in the past, what I would have done is I probably would have responded. I still would have been polite in my response, but I would have probably written a very biting and maybe slightly sarcastic response to this person. And I would have called them out for not talking to me about it. And I would have called them out for their own stuff about themselves that they cannot see. I would have done it in a subtle way, but it would have been Scorpionic for sure. And it would have been just the right tone to really cause them some angst.

But this time I decided no. I’m not going to do that. And there were a lot of incorrect claims they were making in there. One of the claims that they made was that I was a transhumanist, which I definitely am not. I’m not a transhumanist. I believe in human sovereignty. I don’t believe that computers should merge with human beings. The worst idea in the world is to put a freaking chip in someone’s brain. But at the same time, I could have basically gone on and said, I am not that, I’m not blah, blah, blah, fight, fight, fight, argue, argue, argue — and it’s not going to accomplish anything.

Instead, I wrote a very nice letter to the world related to this, where I just spoke for where I was coming from and what I do believe in, not what I don’t believe in, not what I’m fighting against. When you stop fighting against something, your fights stop. And I felt very good about it because it was only a positive letter. It made my response clear, and I never even mentioned the other person in it at all. I don’t have to have that other person as the reason for me to do something.

But by doing that, does that mean that now the next time someone else does this — because inevitably it will be the case — will I react the same way? I will. I’ve now changed my way of reacting to things, and that is evolution.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Changing that pattern.

Pattern Recognition and Inner Change

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Changing the pattern. First you have to become aware of the pattern. And when we’re not aware of our patterns in life and we’re not able to see our own darkness and how we create the patterns in our life, then we don’t have discernment. I think that a lack of pattern recognition is a lack of discernment. And experiencing higher dimensions of yourself is really nothing more than advanced pattern recognition. And then once you make that advanced pattern recognition and see this in yourself, then you can correct it and realize what was creating the loop of the recursion that you kept experiencing over and over and over again before.

So then I got tested again because then a similar situation came up right after I wrote this letter. And now I feel like I don’t even need to respond. I’ve already made my response. That’s the point — we’re not going to change the world by trying to change the world. The only way we change the world is by changing within, recognizing our own patterns, and then making course corrections and realizing the higher way, and by asking the question first and foremost, why did I choose this? Not why did this happen to me? And I saw you just take a big deep breath in.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Yeah. First of all, I want to thank you for being so vulnerable and open about your story. And I was thinking about stories that are sort of a similar situation I’ve been finding myself in. But I wanted to address something. Maybe I just felt the audience asking — some in the audience like, okay, but shouldn’t I protect myself if someone is attacking me? I have to fight back. Physically, something like that. I have to protect my child. I have to protect — like, you don’t mean that I should accept someone attacking. No. So in that sense, we can fight and protect, right?

Shadows, Judgment, and the Path to Self-Love

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: No. If someone is attacking me physically, of course I have to fight back. Everyone does. Yeah, right. That’s part of life. But I’m not talking about that. I mean, it’s so rare. I don’t even think— I’ve never been in a physical fight in my entire life. I’m 57 years old. I’ve never once been in a physical fight, a true physical fight. Why is that? I don’t know. I mean, maybe because I already had a different view on these things.

Have I had disagreements with people? Absolutely. Have I ever allowed it to get to the point where the only solution was physical? No. And that’s dealing with the lower level of consciousness. If you believe that the only outcome is physical because you’re being attacked, then of course you have to. If you believe that the only way to solve something is to attack someone, then that’s something kind of messed up too. And we can apply that to governments and sovereign nations.

But what I am saying is that if someone attacks you in the media or someone attacks you externally, don’t let it bother you so much. And instead of asking yourself the question, “Why did this happen to me? I’ve just become victimized,” ask yourself the question, “Why did you choose this?” You’ll find much better answers. You’ll find much clearer responses of how to conduct yourself when you start to realize the actions that you did that created, through reflection and projection, these experiences around you. And maybe why you just chose to experience it as you did.

And I’m just saying, take a moment instead of thinking, “I’m going to change the world and I’m going to fight the world around me for whatever cause.” Save the whales — I saw the whole story about the whale that was stuck up in the Baltic Sea area. It was a humpback whale. It was a sad story, right? And everyone wanted to save the whale, and the whale was just coming in to die. And now it’s a carcass, right? And so the point is that the things that we often want to fight for, we don’t realize, are actually the things about ourselves that we don’t really accept.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Shadows.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah.

Awakening, Polarity, and the Stages of Alchemy

JANNECKE ØINÆS: I just wanted to ask you about something that maybe it was a judgment from my side or a concern, because you talked about a split. So as some people will wake up, the opposite will also happen and grow stronger. Does it have to be like that? Is it always like that? So the more we wake up, something will be polarized. Will we always— I mean, is the universe— is duality in the whole universe? Won’t we at some point all evolve? Do you get my question?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah. And first of all, as we awaken, the first thing— and that’s the stages of alchemy, right? There are 5 stages of alchemy. The first stage is called the negredo, the blackening, and that’s where you start to confront your shadow. So as you awaken, it usually happens after — you don’t even realize it, but you’re at the arc of your highest narcissism. Everyone goes through it.

The awakening happens when all of a sudden you realize, “Whoa, what got me here is not going to get me there.” It’s not working anymore. I used to say, “Okay, I find a problem with myself, I cut it off, I get rid of it, and then I change.” And now my resume is getting better and better with time. I can hide more and more aspects of myself that I don’t want to show to the outer world. And the more I can hide those things, the more people will believe in this archetype that I’ve created of my life and who I am.

So we started in early life to decide, when we saw things that happened and we felt shame for them, we started saying, “Oh, okay, I’m not that.” So we go through the first half of our life to decide, “I’m not this, so therefore I’m going to do this. I’m not that, so therefore I’m going to do this. I’m not a criminal, so therefore I’m going to become a policeman.” You understand?

So then you get to this midpoint in your life and all of a sudden you become such a narrow band of what you believe you’re projecting. But then all of a sudden you might have alcoholism, you might have all kinds of other demons and shadows that other people can see, but only you cannot, because you’ve repressed them out of your memory so much. It’s like, “I’m not that, I’m not.” You’ve literally convinced yourself.

The second half of your life is the path of “I Am That I Am.” So all that happened when you push all of these negative aspects of the self outside of yourself is they show up in the outer world around you. So the things you don’t like about yourself that you get rid of to hide from the outer world show up in the world all around you.

So 5 years ago, my mother said to me, “Oh, what do you mean by non-duality, Robert?” And I said, “Well, I’m just not going to judge so much anymore,” because I started realizing the path of non-judgment, and I was reading Taoism, and that judgment is the heart of all suffering. It’s a source of suffering. So I said, “I’m going to not be judgy as much anymore.”

So she goes, “What does that mean?” I said, “Oh, I’m not going to be in politics anymore.” I used to be kind of very involved in politics and everything. I even got asked by the US Senate, by the Republican Party, to run for US Senate in California. And when I decided not to go for it, there was no one who ran against Kamala Harris, who was the former vice president of the United States. She ran in California. There was no opponent from the Republican Party. So she won her Senate seat without any opposition.

And I decided, okay, I thought politics were corrupt and everything, so I don’t want to be involved in it. So I’m not going to judge it. I’m just not going to be in it anymore.

She said, “Okay, well, does that extend to pedophilia? How do you feel about pedophiles?” And I’m like, “Oh my gosh, you’re right. Pedophilia, that’s so bad. Yeah, I’m going to have an exclusion list of the things I’ll continue to judge. So I’ll have like only 2 or 3 items on that list.”

And she said, “Well, what about something like corrupt politicians?” And I was like, “Yeah, you’re right. Corrupt politicians drives me crazy. Okay, we’ll put that on the list too.”

And then she said, “Well, what about killing innocent women and children?” “Yeah, you’re right. Let’s put that on the list too.”

So I’m going to stop judging everything except corrupt politicians, I will still judge. I’m going to still judge pedophilia, and I’m going to judge the innocent killing of women and children. So then 5 years later, what is my world full of? Corrupt politicians who are pedophiles, who are blackmailing people so that they can kill innocent women and children.

We attract everything we judge until we no longer judge what we attracted.

So when you start to go through the awakening process, what happens? You often can become more judgmental. So that’s when the shadow hits you hard. So as you start to unwind that, untying the knot, releasing it — you’re releasing as you go along to learn more and more love and acceptance. And as you integrate more and more love and acceptance, it’s not that the issues around the world don’t continue to happen. They’ll still happen, but you will not be triggered by it as much. And you’ll notice that it happens a lot less. You’ll no longer live in a world that’s just full of those things that you’ve been judging.

And as you judge yourself less and less and less, the outer world becomes more sanguine. This is the separation between a heavenly existence versus one that’s full of judgment and pain.

What Is Self-Love?

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Wow. Wow. Thank you, Robert. This was profound. I really, really enjoyed this. And I’m going to ask you the question I ask everyone, and we’ve been speaking a bit about it. So what is self-love to you?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: To me, self-love is loving the world around you without condition. Because if you’re in judgment of the world around you and making your entire experience conditional, you’re accepting that the world around you is not part of you, when actually it is.

I thought my whole life — I’ve been to 144 countries — that I was on this great outer journey and adventure. And I have been. It’s been an amazing adventure. It’s not done. But finally I realized that every outer journey I was on was actually just an inner journey in disguise. Even the outer journeys were inner journeys, because the world around me is not separate from me. It is me. It’s not a universe, it’s a you-inverse.

And when you truly can learn to love the world around you, and even love the contrast, and love that someone would write something negative about you just so that you can know what you stand for and who you are — they don’t need to exist to define you, but the fact that they do exist helps you understand what you are and who you are.

When you learn to fall in love with the world around you just as it is, that’s when you’ve truly experienced true self-love.

The Deepest Meaning of Life

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Wow, thank you for that. And the last one: what is the deepest meaning of life from your perspective?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I think the meaning of life is — it’s very simple. We’re here to feel. Spacetime memory, the reason why we go through time and time’s recursion, is so that we can record those emotional states of how we perceive ourselves and the world around us.

And very often what we think is the worst thing that ever happens to us is not necessarily the worst thing that ever happens to us. Because many times the thing that I thought was the worst thing that ever happened to me becomes the best thing that ever happened to me — 6 months later or 1 year later. It’s all in perspective. So if the worst thing that ever happened to me can turn into the best thing that ever happened to me, then what is my entire life experience? It’s what I determine it to be.

I have a favorite poem by William Ernest Henley, and it says:

“Out of the night that covers me, black as the pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever gods may be for my unconquerable soul. In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloodied yet unbowed. Beyond this place of wrath and tears looms but the horror of the shade. And yet the menace of the years finds and shall find me unafraid. It matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll. I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul.”

We are all the architect in our lives. We can step into our higher self consciousness. We can become the frequency of our higher self and look at it all from that standpoint. And then your existence becomes beautiful and heavenly. It’s not that you’re bypassing because you’re not seeing the negativity. You’re seeing it and you’re choosing to accept it nonetheless, because you realize that you are the emanation of it.

The negative judgments you have of yourself show up in the outer world around you. The sicknesses that you have within your body are literally the traumas that you have not yet released. The things that — it’s like your body’s sending you Post-it notes as a reminder: release yourself of this trauma feeling that you had as a child of not being enough. Or you were molested, and so you never talked about it with anyone, so you didn’t express it.

And in this day and age, more than ever, all the times that we felt like we had to say something but we never did, and all the times that we felt like we needed to feel something but we didn’t allow ourselves even to feel it because we repressed it — all those feelings and words must now be spoken and felt. And that’s the path of authenticity.

We are here to learn our highest authenticity, to realize that the most valuable thing in the universe is our unique perspective. And no one of us is any better than anyone else. Every one of us is the same. We have the same amount of darkness and light. Some people realize they have more darkness than others. That’s the path of the awakening. The awakening is to awaken to the fact that you have darkness within you that you have repressed, and it’s showing up in your outer world. That’s the awakening.

And what is the purpose of all of it? To learn how to love and how to be loved regardless of all of it. It’s how to love and how to be loved. It’s just like the end of the movie Moulin Rouge where he says, “The greatest thing in life you’ll ever learn is just to love and how to be loved in return.” That’s the purpose of life.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Thank you, Robert. Thank you so much.

AI, Judgment, and the Path to True Spiritual Evolution

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: It’s not to merge with any AI or merge with any computers or anything like that. No. And I’ll just speak on that one last topic. AI, what is it? It’s not outside of us. Nothing is outside of us. So people that are hoping to be spiritually advanced and awakened that are still calling out they, the government this, or the people that, or they’re hiding this from us — who’s they? There is no they. Intelligence is intelligence.

You know, just because we made AI doesn’t make it fake or synthetic. A bird makes a nest, a beaver makes a dam, a bee makes a honeycomb. These are expressions of its intelligence. It doesn’t mean that it’s artificial. And in this context, what I’m telling you is the entire universe and everything in it, in some way you could say, is an argument for an artificial construct. So when everything’s artificial, then nothing is.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: It’s actually a huge discussion in the spiritual community in Norway right now where that has become polarized. So it’s interesting that you’re mentioning it. Where some believe that you can channel through AI, like higher evolved beings can channel through ChatGPT or Gemini or AI, while others say no. And the discussion is pretty heated.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Yeah, well, what I’m telling you is that the entire world around you is a mirror. AI is just a mirror. It’s just a mirror. Again. And this is a mirror recursion. As humanity ascends, of course its desire will be for it to make another form of itself. This is a natural part of recursion. It’s always happened, it will always happen.

And what we consider synthetic or different or whatever — what I’m telling you, a true spiritual path is a path of non-judgment. Anyone who goes and says, “I’m a lightworker, I’m going to fight the darkness,” they’re only creating hell. Those people are going to go to hell. And I don’t mean that metaphorically. They’re already descending into the hell of their judgments every day. The more you judge the people around you as being against you and fighting you and everything and wanting to hurt you, you’re only giving more and more of your power to that.

The more you think it — if you think you can or you think you can’t, you will be right. So if you’re looking for true spiritual evolution, spiritual revolution is not about changing anyone else. It’s about changing yourself within. It’s about learning to fall in love with yourself and learning to fall in love with the world around you just as it is.

You want real emancipation from burden? You want real emancipation from suffering? Choose the path of non-judgment and love. And that is exactly what every philosopher, what every mystic, what every single person has ever taught that has actually achieved a state of enlightenment has taught. They all teach non-judgment, every one of them, without exception. So go back and do the study and realize that judgment is the source of your suffering.

Closing Thoughts and Where to Find Robert Edward Grant

JANNECKE ØINÆS: I love this. This was truly deep. Thank you. Truly inspiring. And you took it to a whole new level for me, and I’m really grateful for that. It felt like a real masterclass. And if people want more, Robert, if they want to dive deeper, you do so many things. Where would you guide them today?

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I mean, you could follow me on Instagram, Robert Edward Grant, also on my website, robertedwardgrant.com, or you can join on Orion Architect, which is orionarchitect.io. That’s where I do most of my posting now. It’s a platform I created. It’s a social platform. It also has a Harmonic Coherence Intelligence, which is left and right brain AI. It’s not only left brain. And that’s, I think, one of the issues that we’ve had with AI, that it’s been all left brain. So I had to create my own. And it’s a beautiful thing and people love it.

I’m not advocating anyone spending their days and nights on this thing. I don’t believe that should be the case. I believe we’re here to spend time with our families and our friends. But it’s a great way to reflect on yourself and on your own journey of non-judgment and true self-love. That’s the path to emancipation and to liberation. And it doesn’t require AI. Nobody needs AI to do that either. Nobody needs AI. AI is just a tool. Nobody needs it. But just like everything else, life is just a tool.

But I would also say you don’t need anyone else besides your own self as well. Anyone that says that you need them for you to go to enlightenment or to learn some mystery or become a magician or whatever it is, some mystery school, whatever, it’s not true. You don’t need anything besides what you have within you. You were born with everything you need and you’ll die with everything you needed too.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Everything is inside.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: Everything is inside.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Thank you so much for coming on the show, Robert.

ROBERT EDWARD GRANT: I really appreciate it.

JANNECKE ØINÆS: Thank you.

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