FULL TRANSCRIPT: What A Long Strange Trip It’s Been: Dave Rubin

You sacrifice your own centrality, right?

Well, you have kids. So what’s the consequence of that for your story?

DAVE RUBIN: Wow. You’re going hard right from the beginning.

The Influence of Jordan Peterson on Dave Rubin

DAVE RUBIN: Well, first off, I should note that you were integral in me having kids, because we were on tour back in 2018, did something like 120 shows, 20 some odd countries, bouncing around. We were just saying right before the cameras started rolling that it was so much smaller.

We had no idea what we were doing in some sense. I mean, you knew what you were doing on stage, and I was making some jokes, and we’d do the Q&A together, but there was no security. There was no managers. There was no entourage. There was no film crew. I mean, we really were just out there bouncing around doing things.

And one of the things that you were saying almost every night, and the thing that, you know, I’ve said this to you many times, there’s a million things, obviously, that everyone can say about Jordan Peterson, but one of the things that watching you as someone on stage, to the extent that you’re a performer, do is that you would basically do an hour, hour and a half lecture every night, and then just pick it up the next night where you left off, except I was basically, me and the tour manager, were the only two people that saw it the night before.

You know, we didn’t have roadies going to every show. But one of the things that you consistently talked about is the need for people to truly, for almost everyone, you would say, to live a fully actualized life is to have a child, to learn what the experience of being a parent is, and then ultimately a grandparent, maybe a great-grandparent, that that’s just so integral to being a fully-fledged human.

The Transformative Power of Parenthood

And so, I’ve spent a lot of time trying to understand them, and the point of the tour and the book is to bring whatever understanding I’ve managed to develop to as wide an audience as possible. And I’m hearing you do this night after night, and David, my husband, who you know, he’s a little younger than me. He grew up in a time where he just thought he was going to get married. It wasn’t a thing.

I’m a child of the 80s. It was gay marriage, whatever else, and I struggled with all that, and we’ve done that on camera before, so I don’t think we have to rehash that too much. But I grew up in a time not thinking I would get married. I never really thought of anything to the future, really, and I kind of just put everything towards my career.

Now I’ve got David, who I’m FaceTiming with every night, whatever country, and telling me he wants kids, and I’ve got you on stage telling 10,000 people every night why they should have kids. And finally, I thought, man, if I don’t do this, there’s really something wrong with me. I’m with the person I’m supposed to be with.

I’m touring with someone that I think has offered more to the world in terms of how do we do this right than anyone that I could possibly imagine, and I get the privilege of being part of that. If I can’t do this, then this thing’s really on me, so we’ve got two… two-year-olds now, and Justin’s middle name is Jordan, which one of the great joys of my life was calling you up that day and asking you if we could do it, and we got the Jordan Peterson tears, which we’ve gotten every now and again.

And so what that has done to me, I mean, the best example I can tell you is Luke was about two months old one night, coughing terribly, really nasal, and just gunky, and so a couple hours of trying to get him better, and doing everything we could in steam, and calling the grandmothers, and what do we do, what do we do. And finally, I’m calling the doctor, and finally, we were like, we have to take him to the hospital, and to be driving to that hospital with him in the car for the first time since we had taken him home from the hospital when he was born, and literally talking to God.

I mean, I don’t know how often I do that, probably not that often, and saying, take me, like, it was just a thing, take me, like, whatever’s happening here, I could be done, like, let me be done, and obviously he’s okay, but that, that’s the thing. I think in essence, that’s the reason that you’re saying to really do it right, I mean, I’ve changed more in these two years, I’ve matured more and dealt with more of my stuff, whatever else was left, than it, certainly at any point in my adult life, and I’m just at the beginning of that, you know, I’m also 48, I have a lot of friends who have children that are mid-20s now, so think about that, my contemporaries.

You know, I’m hanging out with my friends from childhood, two of my best friends are still from five and eight years old, they’ve got kids out of college now, and I’m just bringing these children into the world, and what that does to your perspective and change and everything else. So I would say the most powerful piece of it probably is, there is something way more important than you, and when you wake up and see that, when I get up every morning and I’m making my coffee and those two kids run at me, with, like, the world is just, you talk about the eyes, like, their eyes are open, man, and like, they just, they think you are, yeah, and they think you are the best thing in the world.

And I think about it all the time, I’m like, well, now it’s on me to be the best thing that I can be, I don’t know that I can be the best thing in the world, but I could be the best thing that I can be. And I’m really trying to do it, and actually, as I’ve tried to do it, it’s becoming less difficult to do, you know, like, eventually, you start doing it right, and then it kind of works, I’m not saying it’s perfect all the time.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, well, you become what you practice.

Aiming for Something Bigger Than Yourself

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah, and then it’s on you, yeah, and aiming for that, I didn’t realize I was aiming for it, I think.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: For what, do you think, now?

DAVE RUBIN: Well, I don’t think I realized I was aiming for something bigger than myself, in some sense, you know, that it was just, I was going to, my career started working around the time that we were on tour, you know, six or so years ago, which feels like a lifetime ago, I just thought, I’ll just do this, and it’s working, and it’s good, and that can really fill you up.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: You know, you had this conversation on Bill Maher’s podcast about that, that there are some people that maybe can do it, maybe you don’t have to get married, and maybe you don’t have to have kids, and maybe you can put it all into your career, or your art, but it’s pretty damn rare, and I thought you were. And even then, you get one-dimensional, man.

Well, you guys, I thought you took that conversation to as close as it could get on camera, probably, without going any further with him, and I think, and I don’t have to talk about him too much, but I think he’s maybe as close as you can get to doing that, for better or worse. I don’t even mean that as a judgment call.

The Sacrificial Element of Parenthood

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: You made an observation about the sacrificial element, telling that story about taking your son to the hospital, right? So your fervent wish was, if you could swap places and take on the trouble, you’d do that in a second, right?

DAVE RUBIN: It wasn’t even a choice.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Right, well, this is why I’ve said this, and it’s made me unpopular, that people don’t mature generally until they have a child. And the reason for that is you’re not mature until someone’s more important than you. And it has to be like that. It’s like, it’s no, it’s, there’s no question, right?

No, there’s no question. And it’s weird, eh, because, so one of the things that psychologists discovered, kind of by accident, using statistical investigation, so I think this is a very robust finding, is that all the negative emotion words clump together. So there aren’t, there’s really one tree of negative emotion with the central trunk, right? So the negative emotions are grief and disappointment, frustration and anxiety and pain. Those are the big ones.

There’s, maybe they branch off into more differentiated emotions. One of the experiences that’s integrally linked with negative emotion is self-consciousness. Self-consciousness is so tightly associated with negative emotion that they’re not statistically distinguishable. There’s no difference between being concerned with yourself and suffering.

And that’s such an interesting, it’s such an unlikely reality that that’s the case, you know, because the hedonistic story is that you can please yourself and that why shouldn’t you please yourself?

DAVE RUBIN: Fill it up forever.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, and the answer to that seems to be, well, first of all, who are you going to do that with? It’s a real problem.

It’s a real problem unless you can please yourself and no one can, you know, we can punish the worst criminals by putting them in solitary. That’s how social human beings are. And so, and then even more directly, the experience of self-consciousness or to be concerned with yourself is associated with anxiety and shame and grief and disappointment and all the negative emotions.

So, that implies then that there’s a non-obvious relationship between being focused on now exactly what? Focused on others? That’s part of it. Focused on something higher? It’s not, it’s certainly not the narrow self and it’s certainly not the whims of the self.

DAVE RUBIN: No, we’re building something that’s well beyond you. The best I ever heard you talk about it was the closing speech you gave in ARC, which I think for the hundred some odd events we’ve done together, could be almost 200 events we’ve done at this point, where you talked about building Jacob’s ladder and why you do it and what that is and how that is the link from man to God.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: I know that that is right.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: You think that’s right? Why do you know it?

DAVE RUBIN: Because, because it’s not just that suddenly you have this magical moment of I’m driving to the hospital. Take me, right? I just met this kid, right? He doesn’t speak yet. I just met him. Take me. I can tell you in the other parts of my life, I’m in better shape now in these last two years because I thought, well, now I have to live longer.

Living Longer for Your Children

I actually have to live longer and I have to, I play basketball every week with a bunch of guys who are also have kids that are, you know, in their twenties and thirties. And then sometimes they bring their kids that are in twenties and thirties. So I’m talking about guys in their fifties and sixties and I’m starting to play with them and I was like, wait a minute, I want to be able to play with my sons when, when, you know, they’re 18.

Well, if they’re going to be 18, that’s 16 years on me now. I got to be able to play when I’m 64. So then I started eating right and getting better and, and working out more and all of these things. And then, and that’s, that sounds like it’s all about me, except when you start doing those things, David started doing those things and then you’ve been to our house.

We keep our house in a certain order and welcome people and share in the goodness that I suppose my career has been able to afford. So then you start building something that, well, my hands just went like that. You start building something that goes up and I think that that’s real and tangible and we all innately know it.

The Story of Abraham

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: I’ve been speaking with Jonathan Pageau about these sorts of things quite a lot too. And so in this book, one of the stories that I tell is, or that I investigate, let’s say, is the story of Abraham. So I’m going to tell you a little bit about that because it’s, once you understand it, you’ll never forget it. It’s absolutely striking.

So we talked about Jacob’s ladder a little bit. So you think that there’s this upward spiraling process that brings you to, what would you say, to more and more sophisticated plateaus of unity, something like that. Okay. So that’s what the Abraham story is about.

So when, and there’s a pact made, this is the covenant between Abraham and God. So whatever’s at that pinnacle of this ever-ascending spiraling value structure and process, that’s God. Whatever’s at the pinnacle and it recedes as you approach it. So there’s no final definition. God is ineffable in that way, right? So there’s a never-ending spiral of up, just like there’s a never-ending spiral of down.

And so when Abraham, when the story opens, Abraham is a privileged infant, essentially. He’s 70 years old, but he’s never really had to lift a finger because he’s wealthy. And so he has privilege in the modern language. And God comes to him as the spirit of adventure. And this is a definition of one of the facets of the highest plane of being, let’s say.

And God makes Abraham a deal, which is the covenant. And so the covenant is a contract. And so one of the proclamations of the biblical text is that human beings exist in a contractual relationship with the divine. That’s a very interesting plane. And we exist in contractual relationships with each other. That’s what a marriage is, obviously, and all of our business arrangements and friendships. Although the details of the contract and the friendship are implicit, but they’re still there.

It’s an understanding. So our essential mode of being in the world is contractual. And so God’s contract with Abraham takes a very specific form. He says to Abraham, it’s very well defined. He says to Abraham, if you leave your zone of comfort and you go out into the world and you put your heart into it, this is what I can offer. You’ll be a blessing to yourself. So that’s a good deal, right?

Because part of the reason that people suffer is because they’re wracked with self-doubt and guilt and lack of faith in themselves, whether that’s deserved or undeserved. And sometimes it’s undeserved and sometimes it’s deserved, but they’re not a blessing to themselves. They suffer more in consequence of their own being than for any other reason.

Reputation vs Fame

Okay, so if you abide by the voice of adventure, then that disappears. Okay, so that’s a good deal. And then the next part of the deal is you’ll do that in a manner that will bring you renowned among other people and it’ll be justified. So that’s a good deal. So that’s basically reputation, right? It’s not fame. It’s reputation. Those are different.

Fame, you can attain fame by being disreputable, right? And you can have a great reputation without being famous. So they’re not exactly the same.

DAVE RUBIN: Right. And those are very, very different things.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: They are. And the reputation, it’s also the case that the kingdom of heaven that Christ tells people to store treasure in is a reputational storehouse. So the gospel injunction basically is that the safest place to store value is in reputation. And that makes perfect sense to me. I think that’s exactly right.

So, okay. So the second part of the covenant is you’ll make a name among other people and it’ll be justified. So that’s a good deal. And the third part is you’ll establish something permanent, a dynasty, right?

Reproduction vs Sex

So that’s what makes Abraham the father of nations. So now there’s a new idea that enters into that. So the idea is that the pattern of following the spirit of adventure is the same pattern that makes for the best fatherly mode of being and that that has a multi-generational effect. And so that if you embody the father properly, you radically increase the probability of the paternal success of your children. And I think that’s true. I think that’s right.

So I was thinking about this in relationship to Dawkins theory of the selfish gene. It’s like it’s the implication of the selfish gene is that reproduction takes privacy and that there’s no difference between reproduction and sex. But that’s not true. There is a big difference between reproduction and sex, especially among human beings, because we’re high investment parents, right?

It isn’t just sex and the offspring runs off into the world. It’s a multi-generational investment. That’s why we live as long as we do, because it’s a grand parental investment as well as a parental investment.

The Divine Pattern of the Father

So imagine that to maximize the reproductive success of your offspring, you have to instantiate the pattern of the father, and that’s the divine pattern of the father, right? And God tells Abraham that you embody that pattern by pursuing the spirit of adventure. So that’s cool. That’s cool.

And then there’s one last thing he says, you’ll do all three of those things in a way that’ll be a benefit to everyone else. And so then you think, so this is so you think about this biologically, even so you see this in your kids, they have this impetus to master the world, right? And now you want to watch that and you want to encourage that. And you do that by establishing a relationship that’s separate, because I’m sure your boys are quite different.

DAVE RUBIN: Oh, yeah.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yes, because children differ a lot from one another. So you have to establish a different relationship with each of them. But there’s commonality in the relationship because it’s an encouraging relationship if you’re a good father.

So now, Matt, that you embody that encouraging relationship optimally, well, God’s promise to Abraham is that’s what makes you the father of nations, I think. That’s such a lovely equation because it makes the case that the same instinct that calls a child out into the world and that underlies the excitement of adventure is the same. It’s the same spirit that produces all four of those benefits.

And I thought, well, it has to be that way, because how would it possibly be that the spirit that calls us to move out in the world wouldn’t also confer maximum social and reproductive benefit?

DAVE RUBIN: It’s literally everything. I mean, you’re basically saying everything, right? If you do what you are supposed to do, then everything comes. You will order the world. I can tell you that from being on tour with you and watching the people that you turned around, literally in tears, hundreds of people out of thousands, sometimes in tears at once because they were off drugs or because they were in a better relationship or they mended a relationship.

The Dublin Story

Do you remember when we went to when we were in Dublin and it was we had done it was like 10 different countries in 15 nights, something crazy. You did press all day long. It was an exhausting day and we end the show and it was a sort of very small old school theater in Dublin.

And we end up in the alley after because you don’t walk out the front, you know, where everybody’s going to mob you. And it was about 1 a.m. And we walk out and it’s a dark alley and we had no security. It was just me, you, Tammy and John, the tour manager. And there were two guys about 40 yards away from us and we could sort of see them. And it almost seemed like they were fighting or something. They started kind of rushing towards us and we all thought for a second that they were, you know, going to jump us or something. And then as they got closer, we saw they were both in tears.

One guy was probably about late 50s and one guy was probably early 20s. And they told us that it was a father and son who had had a falling out about eight years before, had not spoke in eight years, independently went to the show alone, saw each other there and made amends. I mean, I just got chills up my spine telling you the story again, like what’s the point of that?

The point is that if you order yourself that you will order the world, that’s real. There’s a — there’s a line that I’ve been reading from Carl Jung, who I know had a little influence on you over the years that I’ve been ending a lot of my shows with lately. I’m going to slightly butcher the exact quote, but in essence, that if you don’t do the call for adventure, if you don’t go on the call for adventure, the exact thing you’re asking for, you will be left with nothing but neurosis. Life, the walls will basically close in on you.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And that’s right.

DAVE RUBIN: We all know this. Every who think of all the interesting.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, that’s all that’s left is the suffering, right? Because pointless suffering.

DAVE RUBIN: Think of all the interesting, cool people that you and I have had the privilege of being around in these last eight years since we met eight years ago this month, actually.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Right, right. It’s like that. It’s been eight years.

DAVE RUBIN: I think it was eight years ago this week. It was November. It was the second week of November in 2016. I had just moved into a new house. We were building my home studio in the garage. I didn’t even have internet. I was stealing internet from my neighbor. We did this. You were just on the scene because it’s a free speech bill. Just, like a month.

And suddenly my Twitter feed was blowing up. You got to talk to this guy, Jordan Peterson. We jump on Skype. People can find this online. We jump on Skype. It’s very sketchy, in and out. The picture’s no good. It’s all pixelated. And you’re in your office and I’m sitting in my house and we’re talking. You’re doing the Peter Pan story and everything. And it ends and I turn to David. I swear on my life. And I said to him, that guy is either the most brilliant person I’ve ever talked to or completely insane. I leave it to you to decide.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, yeah. There’s still plenty of discussion about that.

DAVE RUBIN: Right, exactly.

Flash forward eight years. We’ve both been on adventures that have kind of collided at times and then gone separately at times. Good, bad, all sorts, health things, all the kids, all the stuff. And yet, I think that we’re probably both sitting here as good as we’ve ever been.

That’s a sort of scary, I don’t like saying it in some sense, because then it feels like it’s inviting doom or something. But I think it’s only because I’ve seen that when you do what you’re supposed to do, when you really do it, and you say something true, even just connected to the political world of the last couple years. I think we had a little something to do with getting people to wake up to what was going on in the world. You know, you did it at the sort of psychological, personal front. I kind of did it on the political front. And we have an unbelievably hopeful world coming right now, I think.

The Story of Cain and Abel

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: So in the Cain and Abel story, Cain makes second-rate sacrifices, right? So he doesn’t bring his best to the table. And in consequence, he fails. This is one of these situations where the meaning of the pattern of human life is being acted out by people who can’t propositionalize it yet, who can’t conceptualize it explicitly. So they’re acting it out.

And so human beings discovered at some point that they could sacrifice the present for the future and themselves for the community, and that that actually worked better as a medium to long-term strategy. So that’s why the community is based on sacrifice. And you’ve made reference to that with regard to the impulse that entered your imagination when you were taking your son to the hospital, that realization that there’s something more important, well, than you even in total, in a way, but certainly than what you might merely want at the moment.

DAVE RUBIN: Right.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And so Cain, who’s kind of Luciferian, and he thinks he can get away with his tricks, he doesn’t bring his best to the table and he fails. And so he could notice that and rectify his fault and confess and atone and fly right and succeed. That’s on the table. But instead, he becomes bitter and he shakes his fist at God.

And so his presumption, fundamentally, is that the fact of his failure is emblematic of the dysfunction of the world. It’s not him, even though he’s not bringing his best to the table. It’s the structure of reality itself. So it’s unbelievably arrogant, right? So that’s the Luciferian element. Unbelievably intellectually arrogant.

DAVE RUBIN: What wouldn’t you do to the world if you believe that? What wouldn’t you do?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, you’d burn it to the ground. And that’s basically what happens in the story as it unfolds. So he goes, he shakes his fist at God, and then he has a conversation with God. And God says, basically, he says, you think that you’re suffering because you’re not doing well and that that’s a consequence of your misery. First of all, if you did well, you would be accepted. That’s a very interesting claim.

The idea is that if you gave it everything you had, it would work. And you can imagine that that’s a kind of faith, right? That you have to have faith to do that. Because there’s no evidence to begin with that if you brought your best to the table, it would work. And, you know, maybe you’ve had experiences where people betrayed you and so forth that made you doubtful or you betrayed yourself. So it is emblematic of faith to bring your best to the table.

God’s rejoinder to Cain is that if you brought your best to the table, you would succeed. Now, you can imagine people being skeptical about that. But I think the right response to the skeptics is, have you brought your best to the table?

DAVE RUBIN: What’s the other option?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, that’s what’s explored. And then God says something even stranger to Cain. He says something like, you’re also blaming your suffering on your failure. But that’s not exactly right. And this is very interesting causally, because we like to think that, you know, people who go crooked, let’s say, do that because they’ve been hurt, because terrible things have happened to them.

And there’s an intervening variable theory in this account between Cain and Abel. So what God tells Cain is that there were many ways that he could have reacted to the fact of his own failure. And he picked one. And the one he picked was rife with a terrible temptation. He says, sin crouches at your door like a sexually aroused predatory animal, and you let it in to have its way with you.

And so the idea there is that Cain is turning to vengeful bitterness in consequence of his failure when that wasn’t the only option. So he’s inviting the spirit of vengeful bitterness to possess him. And then he’s actually to have its way with him. And he’s actually entering into a creative union with that. And that’s the cause of his misery. And that’s the end of the discussion. And that enrages Cain. And that’s when he invites Abel to go work with him. So it’s a false invitation. Then he kills him. And then Cain’s children become more and more murderous. And his grandchildren make weapons of war. And the next story is the flood or the Tower of Babel. Right. So it’s a complete story of human degeneration.

And it’s a covenantal account, too, because Cain violates the covenant with God by not bringing everything he has to bear on the situation. And you think, well, what’s the counter proposition to that is that the counter proposition is that you can succeed by hedging your bets.

Well, who would believe that? Like, when you lay it out —

DAVE RUBIN: You might just get away with it.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, that’s the hope. But then underneath that, there’s obviously the idea that you’re smart enough to pull the wool over what? Your eyes, God’s eyes, everyone’s eyes. That’s who you are. Or worse, that’s the spirit that you’ve invited to possess you.

Right. And then when it reveals itself completely, it turns out to be fratricidal and then genocide.

DAVE RUBIN: That’s probably how most of us operate on a day-to-day basis. Right. I mean, most people probably operate on some version of pulling the wool over their eyes.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Right. Yeah, well, that’s certainly.

DAVE RUBIN: I’m not talking about the most exceptional people here. I’m not talking about like that.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, that’s the question of conscience for everyone. You know, it’s like, well, if things aren’t going your way, just whose fault is that? Well, the other thing you might want to realize, too, is that if you’re lucky, it’s your fault. Because you could do something about that.

If it’s the state of the world, let’s say, or if it’s God’s distaste for you at some fundamental level, let’s say, or the impossibility of existence in general, then you’re really in hell. But if it’s you. Well, then you could possibly do something about it if you were willing to.

DAVE RUBIN: Maybe clean your room. Wouldn’t that be something to do?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Maybe. Well, you could start by straightening out what you can straighten out. Well, you said, you know, you saw on the tour repeatedly the fact that that worked for so many people. And so, you know, and that’s part of the reason why we’ve kept this going.

Well, it’s the reason that we’ve kept it going. You know, it’s extremely interesting and it’s great to have the opportunity to think on my feet.

Reflecting on the Early Days of Their Collaboration

DAVE RUBIN: Well, it’s your adventure.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, right.

DAVE RUBIN: It’s your adventure. I saw it then and I know even though we’re not on tour together right now, I know you’re still doing it.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: You know, I had forgotten that. You were I wonder if you were the first. Relatively large podcaster to talk to me after everything blew up in Canada, it might have been, you know, because like I made those videos on Bill C-16 in about mid-October in 2016. And so it was and what was happening in your career at that point? Like you were established on YouTube already as a commentator.

DAVE RUBIN: I had left the left, so to speak. You know, I was still fighting for the same liberal values that I actually still believe in. I just can’t use the word liberal anymore for we can get into that if you want. It’s just — it just becomes impossible linguistically to explain why liberal values are no longer associated with the liberals, which we both obviously talked a lot about.

But I was going — I was really independent for the first time at that point. I had just bought my first house. We were doing the home studio thing. Really, nobody had done that. You know, I really — I really was at the front end of building a TV ready studio. I mean, you came to that house many times and we had a lot of a lot of great shows there.

And I was building something that could have just as easily been replicated in Fox or CNN or elsewhere. We turned a bedroom into a control room. We had a proper lighting grid. We did it. All the right equipment, right staff, et cetera.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, right.

DAVE RUBIN: But the main thing that I was still harping on politically was free speech because I saw the hysteria of the left. And then I started looking at Twitter and Twitter obviously was very different at the time. But you know what it was like. You tweet something and then you look at the mentions and suddenly everybody’s going on and on about this guy, Jordan Peterson.

I thought, well, let’s talk to this guy, Jordan Peterson, and my studio is not ready and he’s up in Canada. So we’ll jump on Skype and do it. I think it might have actually been my first Skype interview ever, you know, and then during COVID that obviously became kind of ubiquitous.

But from that point, I think I — I just went in on the free speech thing, it was well, I knew it was right, but it also felt it felt deeply important.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And now why did you — why did you decide to come on tour with me? Because that was pretty soon afterwards, right?

DAVE RUBIN: You may not remember how it happened, but it almost it almost was a joke. And this says a lot. This says a lot about you. Actually, you, me and Ben Shapiro did a show at my house.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: In January, I believe. It was too late. It was January 2018. The three of us did the show and you were doing your first theater show that night at the Orpheum in L.A. OK, we did like a three hour show. The three of us and I kept I knew you and Ben could just do this all day long. I barely had to be there. I just had to kind of look one way every now and again. But I knew you had this big theater show, so I wanted to end it a little bit early.

We end up going about three hours. And then as we were saying goodbye and we had only met in person, I don’t know, three times, maybe, maybe, maybe that was the second time we met. I’m not even sure. I said to you and I was kind of joking as you were standing on the stoop of my house leaving to go to the theater.

I said to you, hey, Jordan, do you want me to come tonight and I’ll crack a couple of jokes about lobsters and some of the other funny references? And you said, yeah, that would be a great idea. And then I came to Orpheum was sold out. It was the most people I had ever you know, I’ve been doing stand up for years, but I had never done a 5000 seat theater.

And I guess I crushed it. And the whole team was right there. And I remember the two agents came right up to me. They said, this this show is amazing. We’re going to take this on tour. You want you want to open for him? I said, well, we should probably ask Jordan. And then you immediately said yes. And then it completely changed my life. I look back on it like it was a dream. Sometimes I really think back on it. Did we really do that thing? It was incredible —

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Renting that damn theater, you know, so —

DAVE RUBIN: Because you had no idea. And do you remember? Do you remember one of the things that I would always say at the top of the show? And I tried to switch it up as much as possible. Definitely not as much as you, because I felt my job was to be funny so that people would come and feel relaxed for the first 10 or 15 minutes. Then Jordan could do his thing. And then I would try to be silly with you for the most part at the end. That way, it felt like a complete show.

That was — that was what I always felt, because otherwise people were coming for hardcore stuff. I mean, unbelievably impactful stuff. And I didn’t want them leaving with that. I wanted them to walk out of there like, wow, we had a great time with all their friends. So I always felt that — that was my job.

And I think that because we did it that way, I think something that you’ve told me a few times in the last year or two, that your audience now has matured with you. And I love that. That actually — that’s the Jacob Blatter story right there, right? You took what was largely young men who had whatever their issues were at the time and the way — maybe the way culture was treating them and everything else.

You helped order them. They were getting dressed, right? All these guys coming up in suits. We were in Sweden and I stopped at an H&M in Sweden because I wanted a new suit for that show. And the guy in front of me, I hear him talking to the cashier and he tells the cashier in English. He tells the cashier that he’s buying his first suit because he’s going to a Jordan Peterson show tonight. And I tapped him on the shoulder. I said, I am too. And then we called him out on the show that night.

But now you’ve said that your audience has matured with you and now some of them are in better, you know, they’re in better relationships. They now have kids. You’re talking to people who five years ago were a complete disaster. That’s literally the story you’re telling me right now. It’s incredible.

The Antidote in the Story of Abraham

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: So in the Abrahamic story, so you have the story of Cain and Abel and it describes the way that the psyche and then the society deteriorates, right? This pattern of insufficient sacrifice, the invitation to the spirit of Luciferian bitterness and resentment, fratricide, and then the decay of society as a whole, right?

And then you have the flood, which is the degeneration in the direction of chaos. Then you have the Tower of Babel, which is degeneration into totalitarianism, right? So it’s pathology of chaos. It’s like degeneration of the individual society, pathology of chaos, pathology of order.

Then you have the story of Abraham, which is the antidote to that. So it’s like Abraham is the new Abel. So he decides that he’s going to forgo his comfort and follow the spirit of adventure. One of the claims that I’ve been making on in this book, but also on the last tour, was that the divine is characterized in the Old and New Testaments also as the truth that will set you free.

And so adventure is part of that, and truth is part of that, and they’re reflective of the same unified thing. And I think the reason for that is that there is no better adventure than the truth. And the reason for that, it touches on things we’ve already discussed, but I think there’s a technical reason for that. It’s like, if you want something from someone, you can craft your words to get that thing you want. And maybe you’ll get it, maybe you won’t. And you might say that you succeed when you get it. But the problem with that hypothesis is, how do you know that you wanted the right thing? That’s a really big problem, because lots of times we chase the wrong thing.

Well, there’s an alternative approach, which is, you say what you believe to be the case, and you make the presumption that’s faith, let’s say. You make the presumption that whatever happens as a consequence of that is the best thing that could happen. But also, this is the adventurous part, you don’t know what’s going to happen. And so you’re throwing yourself into the fray.

The Power of Honest Discussions

I’m going to say what I think, and there’ll be consequences, but I don’t know what they are. Well, you think, well, that’s scary. It’s like, well, yeah, but it’s extremely interesting. It’s ridiculously exciting.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, relative to what’s happening in the world right now, just the results of this election, and the fact that a bunch of us, the laundry list of people, whether it was you and I, or Rogan, or Brett Weinstein, or Douglas Murray, or just all of these people that just started talking, that’s all we were doing.

When that whole intellectual dark web thing happened, all it was was that we were talking. There was magic to it, in that people were hearing things from you that maybe they hadn’t heard before, or they should have heard before, or their parents didn’t tell them, or something like that, or education didn’t give them, or they were hearing a biological explanation about evolution from Brett that they hadn’t heard before, something like that.

But really what was happening, we were having honest discussions, and disagreements, and agreements about a whole host of things, and there was no other outlet for that. There was also no other agenda than that. There was no agenda, and that’s the thing. In some ways, that’s why we couldn’t all turn it into something.

There was this moment where everyone was like, oh my God, are you guys a TV network? Are you a road show? Are you a podcast? What is this thing? Is it everyone on tour together, whatever? We couldn’t quite figure it out, because I think partly because we were just doing it for the sake of doing it. I was doing what I thought was best in my life, and I think it’s borne out that way. I think you did as well, but look what happened to the world since then.

Early Adopters of Powerful Technology

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: We were very early adopters of a very powerful technology, so that was a big part of it too.

DAVE RUBIN: Right, so there are two parts, right? So the first part is just that we were talking, right? Nobody else was having mature conversations anywhere, anywhere. When I started doing long-form interviews, the reason I was doing it was because everyone started going on Snapchat, and it was driving me crazy.

I thought, this thing’s making everybody dumber. I’m not even sure that Snapchat really exists anymore, but it was 10-second, and there were Vine … Do you remember Vine videos? It was a portion of Twitter, these six-second looped videos, and I thought, this is insane.

There’s so many things to talk about. There’s so much going on in the world. Why are we just dumbing everything and clipping everything down like this? I had become friends with Larry King, and I thought, that’s what I want to do. I want to sit with somebody and hear what they have to say, and then, now subsequently in the last eight years, everybody and their brother has a podcast, and everyone’s doing it, but I think we were early in on that, and then you’re right. We were early in … There were people in before us, for sure, but we were early in on leveraging what technology was going to do.

Reality vs Lies

Rogan got in around the same time I did. I mean, the network that I worked for, the Young Turks, I don’t have a lot of good things to say about them, but Cenk Uygur did realize that online was going to matter more than mainstream, and I think if we’ve seen anything in the last week …

I mean, my argument these last two or three months was that this was not an election about Trump versus Kamala, or liberals versus conservatives, or Democrats versus Republicans. This was basically the election on reality, and how many people are still going to swallow the lies, and we can go through the laundry list of things that they’ve lied about, that the machine has lied about, from very fine people to, you know, the vaccine stopped COVID.

I mean, we can do the whole thing, and so that was one portion of people, and the rest of us, where it’s messy, and maybe RFK’s right about some things, maybe not, but what’s bringing Tulsi over, and we did that Rescue the Republic event, and it was like, what was bringing Russell Brand, and you, and me, and RFK, and Tulsi, and Brett, all of these people who-

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Strange bedfellow.

DAVE RUBIN: None of this would make any sense in an ordered world, but the world had gotten so out of control that suddenly it pushed us together. I think that’s actually exactly what you just laid out in the story right there, right? It went so haywire that suddenly we all got pushed together, and so I guess my question to you then would be, are we now on the other side? Doesn’t it feel like something has fundamentally shifted?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, certainly.

Trump’s Outreach to Podcasters

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, I think what really — what put the capstone on was the last month of this presidential election. I think what happened was that Barron Trump got the ear of Trump and knew the podcast world. And Trump, being very entrepreneurial and a risk taker, decided to pay attention.

Because he picked a lot of podcasts that you’d only pick if you knew the podcast world. I think Rogan’s an obvious choice because he’s the 800-pound gorilla, obviously. Although, I’m not saying it wasn’t courageous and wise of Trump to go on Rogan.

DAVE RUBIN: Basically, no other politician would ever do a three-hour unedited sitcom like that.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And there’s certainly this delusion that I think the legacy media and perhaps even the Democrats are starting to realize, perhaps, that their consistent insistence that Rogan is a fringe figure and certainly some kind of gateway to the right is ignorant and preposterous. Both of those things.

DAVE RUBIN: Yet bizarrely true now also.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Right. Right. But the thing is, it shouldn’t be. It shouldn’t be. He’s a gateway to it. It’s a very strange version of the right.

Going Against the Mainstream Narrative

DAVE RUBIN: Well, that’s what they used to say about me. I was — because I left the left. But wait a minute, this guy’s gay, still liberal, mostly pro-choice, like we could do the whole laundry list of things, but that I was just willing to talk to people. So then suddenly I’m talking to you. And then I was like, I’ll talk to Shapiro. Right. I’ll talk to Glenn Beck. That’s a scary guy. He’s a crazy right winger. I’ll talk to Larry Elder, et cetera, et cetera.

So then that’s what people used to say to me all the time. You’re the — you’re the gateway drug. The funny thing about Rogan is if you see what the media is doing with him now, is they’re going the mainstream media is going, you know, why is it that we don’t have our own Rogan? Well, you idiots, you had him.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, no, you had him.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, you refused. And you tried to get him kicked off. You tried to get him kicked off Spotify.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: You see, Hurwitz made public. Greg Hurwitz made. I thought that was really good. That message that he because Greg was a very influential consultant to the Democrats and messenger, like a very influential.

And he sent them an invitation from all of us essentially back in 2017 saying, hey, the reason that none of you are on our shows is because you say no, it’s not because you’re not being invited. And I invited dozens of high ranking Democrats to come on my podcast and all of them said no. They would talk to me public privately, but not publicly.

DAVE RUBIN: As recently as I believe it was last March when we were having the big bipartisan border deal fight. Remember that there were three days of we’re going to pass this bipartisan deal to deal with the border, even though we don’t need a law passed. It’s obviously the president is allowed to deal with the border.

We went to D.C. we hunkered down in a studio for a day in Rumble Studios. We invited 20 Republicans and 20 Democrats. Nineteen Republicans said yes. The only one who couldn’t do it that day was Rand Paul, because one of his staffers got stabbed on the street of D. C. That tells you everything you need to know about that. Nineteen of 20 Democrats did not respond. The only one who responded was Ilhan Omar, which was kind of hilarious. And she said no.

But but that tells you right there. I am not thought of as a gotcha interviewer. Right. Like I that was the biggest knock on me for years is, oh, Rubin’s just going to throw you softballs. I was just interested in talking to people. But the idea that no Rogan to —

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Rogan, but a little harsher than you. But but he’s not a gotcha interviewer ever.

DAVE RUBIN: No. But if you have the entire cultural apparatus, which the Democrats in essence had, and then you don’t you just think you can ignore the thing, you’ll ignore it until you can’t ignore it anymore. I think what now happened is they cannot.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, that is exactly if my —

DAVE RUBIN: If I was getting the views or you were getting the views that MSNBC were getting, I would consider a new career. I actually mean that at this point. We’re blowing them out of the water. And I’m not telling you it’s because I’m the best journalist in the world. I don’t even consider myself a journalist. I tell people what I think.

I see the news in the morning. And then partly because of being on tour with you, I try to do in the hour long show that I do every day. I try to tell a story. I don’t just try to say, oh, there’s 10 things going on. I try to loop it into some sort of narrative story. And you’ve met my producer, Phoenix, who you hugely helped in his own life. And then we started working together. And now we craft a story so that if people give me an hour of their day, which is an awful lot of time.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: And I’m very aware of that. I’m very aware of that. And I don’t expect everyone to do it. And maybe you can only give me five minutes one day and one day you’ll give me an hour or whatever it might be.

But I want you to walk away with, oh, there’s some context to what’s going on here, not just, OK, this guy said this and this one did this and right now. And because otherwise we’ll do that forever. Right. We’ll just do it forever. And I think by all of us having these conversations, by starting to find these alliances, by the left being so hysterical. And you may remember we were in Miami a couple of years ago at a party in the backyard and there was a big debate about what do we do? It was a lot a lot of your friends, a lot of our friends. And and there was a big debate about what do we do with the Democrats? And I kept saying they are not coming around. They are not coming around.

And Greg was taking the counter position. And I’m not saying that I’m not trying to pat myself on the back here because I would like them to come around. I think maybe now, you know, right. So it’s going to be — it’s going to be years now because they have an opportunity. But there’s an opportunity at least he was going to take the destruction. And I think we have the destruction now. I don’t know how haywire goes on their side, but I think that was it.

The Right’s Willingness to Talk

The only thing that people on the right did that somehow now makes Joe Rogan a Trump supporter is that they were willing to talk. That’s it. Willing to talk and willing to question. And then it got put on steroids with covid.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: It’s so funny watching the MSNBC people do a postmortem on what would they what’s their claim? The right stranglehold on the new media.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: It’s like, well, you can’t really call it a stranglehold when the reason it exists is because you wouldn’t participate. Right. And so you just you you refuse to admit to the reality of the new technology and you refuse to engage despite repeated good faith offers like endlessly repeated good faith offers with people. It certainly wasn’t inevitable that Rogan was going to transform into a Trump supporter.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: No, they have themselves to blame.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah, they have absolutely themselves to blame. Look, when I got my off, when I got the offer for my first book and we were on tour, we were in maybe we were in Copenhagen, I think. And I told you backstage. And, you know, of course, one of the rules is be happy for your friends when you hear good news. Slightly butchering it.

And the way you smiled at your hands and you were sitting in a you were sitting in a rotating chair. And I remember your chair fully spun around. You were so happy for me that book. Don’t burn this book became New York Times bestseller. Should have been like number two or three. But, you know, they fiddle with the numbers. I don’t even care about that.

I mentioned that only because I could not get on MSNBC, CNN or any mainstream media. Fox put me on constantly. So, again, —

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: It’s like the same with with 12 rules like that was I think that’s the biggest selling nonfiction book in Canadian history, I think. It’s certainly close.

DAVE RUBIN: And oh, they said, right. They said you weren’t publishing.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, that’s right. The New York Times never did put it on the list. Never. And so that was pretty interesting. And then I had no mainstream media interviews about 12 rules in the United States, like zero…

DAVE RUBIN: Fox.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Fox. Yes. Right.

The Cathy Newman Interview

DAVE RUBIN: But then think about what happens. So then you do that unbelievable interview with Cathy Newman. Right. And then suddenly this thing happens online. I mean, that was that Cathy Newman moment. That was an unbelievably like tear the Internet in half moment for people that were paying attention.

So now this huge well of support is support. It’s love and it’s hate and it’s anger and it’s confusion. All the emotions that anyone could have about any of this that’s happening online. And it’s being completely ignored on the mainstream. So now people are ignored enough —

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: So that Channel 4, which was the interview, actually posted the whole interview online without even, I think, a moment’s consideration. That just stunned me that they did that.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, the best part of that was, didn’t she right after the interview, didn’t she do a little selfie or something in her car where she was basically like, you know, I sat down with this guy. It was no big deal or whatever. And then I think once and then once she realized how sort of bad she looked, then then, of course, she wanted to play the victim and everything else.

But the point that I’m trying to show there is that there has been something going on online with the thing that’s in all of our pockets all the time that we’re all paying attention to, probably way too much time of the day that was being completely ignored by the mainstream. And that’s why when you say, well, what’s going on at MSNBC and they can’t do a proper postmortem and there’s now they’re saying the Latinos are white supremacists or the gays are white supremacists. It’s like because you guys ignored what you lied about everything and ignored all of us the entire time.

Not only did you not have to do it, if they would have been, I bet you, I bet you 10 percent better we would not be in this situation right now. We would probably have Kamala Harris as the president elect because most people are willing to swallow a lot of shit. You know what I mean? Like we all have our own problems, all of our own stuff.

But they went so in on all of the lies. The fact that Barack Obama two days before the election gave a speech, I think it was in Wisconsin, where he said that Donald Trump went to a white supremacist rally and said they were very fine people on both sides. The fact that he ran with that hoax again after it has been debunked —

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: By people who wouldn’t debunk it unless it was seriously not true.

DAVE RUBIN: I think the first time that got to mainstream media was me on real time because James Carville brought it up. With more and I had never heard it said on mainstream and I wasn’t going to let him get away with it. And I said, what are you talking about? The next sentence is out of his mouth was, but I’m not talking about the white supremacists and the neo-Nazis who should be condemned entirely.

But Carville literally crumbles to the table because he did not know what to do with when confronted with reality. And then Bill, Bill said, well, it was worded inarticulately or something to that effect. And I thought, well, that’s an interesting way of playing a little bit of cleanup on that.

Obama’s Speech on the “Fine People” Hoax

But the point is, they thought, I think Obama, what would your psychological analysis of Obama be right there? Two days before the election, he either believes it. There’s no way he could be that dumb and ignorant, simply impossible. But maybe you want to give him 5 percent chance.

Want to give him 5 percent? What do you want to give him on that? Let’s give him 20 percent, right? OK, great. 20 percent. So he’s unbelievably dumb and ignorant. And he ran the speech by nobody who’s willing to confront him with reality. Or what would the only alternative be? He knows he can lie. It doesn’t matter how big the lie is. And he thinks the lie will accomplish the goal that the ends justify the means.

I think they got to the end of that road. I think that’s what this election was. You cannot tell us that there are very fine people on both sides. You can’t tell us that Brett Kavanaugh is a serial rapist or that the Covington kids are racist or that Kyle Rittenhouse is a white supremacist. I mean, we could do a million version that six feet social distancing was scientifically backed. And I think that’s actually what this election was about. It really Trump then became the avatar that was sort of wrapped around that thing. And then she became — Kamala, basically became the avatar of the machine.

The Unlikely Coalition Around Trump

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: We talked, too, about the fact that in the last month, a lot of radical things happened around Trump the last month. I mean, the fact that this weird coalition gathered around him, which is completely preposterous, it’s completely preposterous.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Elon Musk is now going to be running the Department of Governmental Efficiency. And that has the same acronym as Doge. Yeah, that was a coin. And it’s a funny dog. And it’s do only good every day. It’s like, what the hell is going on here? It’s ridiculously comical that Musk is actually an X man, because that’s the name of his platform. And that idea has been obsessing him for years. And that Gabbard is on board and that Robert F. Kennedy came along and that Vance is along. And so is Vivek Ramaswamy. I mean, these are very unlikely, very unlikely Republicans, very unlikely.

And so that’s weird as hell. And it’s like, seriously, surreally, this is Pulp Fiction weird.

DAVE RUBIN: So what do you think the unifying principle is? To me, it’s just it’s that they they love America. Like that’s sort of like the you would say.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: I think they’re all iconoclasts.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah,

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: I think it’s analogous in some ways on the political side to what happened with the media, the new media that we were describing. There wasn’t anything really that. We had in common, let’s say you and I or Weinstein or or Rogan, Shapiro, like that, that was a very. Diverse group of people —

DAVE RUBIN: It was free speech in the most.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, it was. Well, I think the thing we had in common essentially was our approach to discourse. That was really all. I mean, you know, each of us taken in pairs had things in common, but it was devotion to discourse, open discourse, conversational discourse, essentially. And in a way, in a sense, on agenda free conversational discourse. I mean, one of the things that makes Rogan so perennially popular is that he’s just trying to figure out what’s going on. And that really is the case.

You know, Rogan, you know that what you see is what you get. He’s exact. All you people, all the people in that group are exactly the same on camera and off. Yeah, exactly. There’s no persona. They’re just exactly who they are. And and so and I and — and all of those people were and are iconoclastic. Right. They didn’t fit well in organizations. They all started their own thing. And that’s really the same thing that’s characteristic of these people that have gathered around Trump.

The Death Throes of Legacy Media

And then as we alluded to, we also have this other strange occurrence, which is the death throes of the legacy media of most Douglas Murray. I talked to him the other day and he said, well, don’t throw all of the legacy media under the bus. There is the New York Post, for example, Fox News. People are trying to do their best. Sure. You know, you have the free press with Barry, but that’s new media, too.

So by and large, the liberal end of the legacy media have doomed themselves to perdition because they got partisan and deceitful. And they were also willingly blind because they didn’t pay attention to the new media at all.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, nobody could be that bad at their job. No janitor could be so horrible at his job and still have a job the next day. Joe Scarborough lies every day. He sits in a chair at MSNBC at a giant corporation to lie. Somebody up there, I don’t know who his boss is, but somebody up the chain of the corporation knows that he’s lying about all of these things. They know that Joy Reid is in essence a neo-racist or that Rachel Maddow has spent three years relentlessly lying about vaccines and COVID.

Why Didn’t We Fall For the Hoaxes?

DAVE RUBIN: So what people I think have to understand is they’re paid to lie. Well, they are well paid to push a particular narrative.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Part of the difference with the old media, let’s say, the corporate media, and the new media is that those organizations are corporations, and the people that you see are the front men for the organization. They’re not investigative, they’re not independent investigative journalists.

Now, I know you claim that, you know, that you’re not a journalist, and technically that’s true, but that’s the roughest equivalent because I don’t know, apart from podcaster, I don’t know what the definition is.

DAVE RUBIN: So, yeah, it’s something like I’m trying to translate the nonsense, but that’s not a talk show host.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, I’m a talk show host. Yeah, yeah, that’s right. That’s what I’m doing with my podcast, too. They’re talk shows.

DAVE RUBIN: But why is it then that for the last four, let’s say, starting when COVID started, like that day, all of the hoaxes that we’ve all been through, why is it that I didn’t fall for any of them? Why is it that my track record, I get political predictions wrong all the time. I thought DeSantis could win the primary. I have no problem admitting that. I thought there was a different way the Republicans could go. And by the way, I’m thrilled with the result. I couldn’t be happier. I fought for Trump and all that stuff.

So putting aside political predictions, why is it that I didn’t screw up? Why didn’t I fall for all of the hoaxes? Why when the Jussie Smollett thing came out and they said that two black guys, or that he was lynched by two guys with MAGA hats who said this is MAGA country, and it turned out to be black brothers that he paid, why is it that I didn’t immediately fall for the hoax?

Yeah, Kamala Harris immediately tweeted out that this proves we’re a white supremacist nation. And I think that’s still, I think that tweet is still up. Why is it that MSNBC fell for every hoax? Why is it that I didn’t fall for all of the COVID hoaxes? By day 15, I thought, okay, two weeks to stop the spread. We’re done now. And now they’ve moved on to something else.

It’s not because I’m some kind of genius. Why did you not fall for all these hoaxes? Why did Rogan not really fall for all these hoaxes? And everyone, I’d say to some degree, we all got screwed up by COVID in some ways. And I think you’ve even said that you got, I think I did your first interview back after your health stuff, and you said that you got vaxxed and you thought the whole idea was now the government, if I can quote you directly, was leave me the fuck alone.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, yeah. That is what I thought. I thought, okay.

DAVE RUBIN: And it’s interesting. I remember thinking when you said that to me on air, I thought, that’s interesting because I never thought that. I thought if I do it, they’ll never leave me alone. And I think that that actually turned out to be more true.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Oh, definitely. Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, what is it about us then?

Information Scavengers vs Legacy Media Monoculture

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, I think partly we put our finger on it with regard to the fact that you don’t have a whole corporation behind you composed of people and advertisers that are all thinking the same thing and purveying the same message, right? So you can go out and scavenge for information.

That’s the other thing too, is the information environment that surrounds you. This is a point they made on MSNBC. I think it was the guy who runs Axios who was the commentator. I think we’re going to probably clip that into this show. He pointed out that people who are on the cutting edge of the technological world, let’s say the online media world, they’re information scavengers.

I gather information from, well, I’m on X a fair bit, but I get information from a lot of different sources. It’s not an easy thing to do. And so the information pipeline that you have isn’t a legacy media monolith by any stretch of the imagination. And I think a lot of these people, rather than, I mean, the charitable interpretations, rather than being outright purveyors of falsehoods, they’re in an ecosystem where it’s like a monoculture. Everybody thinks the same thing, right?

DAVE RUBIN: It’s like a fish swimming in water that’s so polluted, a tank that’s so polluted that he can’t see right in front of him, even though his memory is short anyway, but now he literally can’t see where he’s swimming.

I mean, think about it. How is it that we all, why is it that I did a video in 2019, people can find it saying Joe Biden has clearly the beginnings of dementia or something cognitively wrong with him. 2019, again, I’m not a doctor. I was just watching the videos like everybody else. I watched the corn pop video.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: How much time do you spend every week looking at media information?

DAVE RUBIN: An awful lot.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: How much?

DAVE RUBIN: I mean, I would say I’m definitely within the ex-Twitter ecosystem, a couple hours a day. So that’s a pretty significant amount of time. I try not to do it on the weekends. You know, I do my August off the grid thing, which I think also has helped me stay sane throughout this, because I get out of the hamster wheel basically, you know, once a year for eight years now.

Biden’s Legacy Opportunity

But the Biden cognitive issue, they lied and lied and they kept saying, don’t see what you see. And he’s still president right now. Although something seems to have turned on because I think he’s starting to realize, man, he’s got a legacy and he can figure it out in the next two months. And I think his legacy, if he’s smart, and I don’t know that he, I don’t know what’s left of him, but if, if Jill and whoever else is around him that, that has sense with them, they have an incredible opportunity right now. And I hope they’ll take this.

The opportunity is you have no reason to placate to the left. You were brought in because you were old Joe, the moderate, you weren’t crazy Bernie. You weren’t Elizabeth Warren. You weren’t one of the radicals. You governed like one of them. They took advantage of you, but now they clearly tried to screw you by forcing him out. He’s basically said that. I mean, that’s what he said on the view that they forced him out. He thought he was going to win.

So we’ll find out what happened there one day, because eventually the truth will come out. But what an interesting moment he has right now. He has two months to say, I have no reason to play with you children anymore, and I can build a legacy. So what could my legacy be?

Well, maybe Donald Trump’s not Hitler. And maybe I could do a few things like, I don’t know, maybe somehow winding down some portion of the Iraq war or helping Israel win their war, getting our hostages back, the American hostages, if not the Israelis, or maybe doing something about the border, which they are doing a little more now.

He has an interesting moment right now where his legacy could be. He took us to the precipice of hell. He got taken advantage of, they’ll write about it one day. But then right there when he had a moment, the two months between administrations, he did something right. And I don’t think that’s completely, a lot of people are saying I’m nuts for that. But if you were Joe Biden, and again, we don’t know what’s really in his mind or what he’s capable of cognitively at this point, but wouldn’t that be a pretty good ending to the story?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: That would be a good ending. That would also help the Democrats get back on track. Maybe we’ll get lucky too.

Trump’s Podcast Outreach

And so in the last month of the campaign, we had all these strange people aggregate around Trump. And that was a game changer. That was I was concerned because it really helped put my concerns about a Trump administration to rest. And then we had the spectacle of him turning to the podcast world. And he did that with accruing success.

Like you could see that he was, he had some trepidation to begin with. But as he found out what that ecosystem was like, you know, we can forgive him for not discovering that earlier because he is 78. You know, I mean, —

DAVE RUBIN: And he did do some of it, by the way. I mean, he did my show. He did my show when he was president. So he was he was bouncing in and out.

But he yes, you’re totally right that he went hardcore. I’m going to sit down with the Nelk Boys while they’re talking about, you know, Spike Seltzer. And, you know, which was great, which was really great.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, it was great. It was great. And then, of course, the capstone was obviously Rogan. And then they tried to censor that on YouTube. Right. Which was just beyond comprehension that they mucked up the search algorithms. I just couldn’t believe that.

DAVE RUBIN: But again, they knew they were going to get caught. And this is the thing that I’m still stuck on. I’m not stuck on that. They lie. And I’m not stuck on that. They put themselves in an ecosystem where the lies then become pervasive.

I’m stuck on the other part. Like, you know, you’re going to get — Obama knows he’s going to get caught. YouTube knows that they’re going to get called out for the algorithmic tricks. And yet they still don’t.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And that shows you took down the interview. The first interview I did with RFK during election, they took it down. I thought Democrats were screeching for months about Russian collusion and election interference. And yet you’re willing to censor an actual presidential candidate with an actual two hour interview. And that’s somehow that’s OK. Somehow that’s OK.

DAVE RUBIN: It’s like, well, it’s funny you say it’s funny you say the Democrats and you’re talking about YouTube and that show. That shows you the connection between these things. Right. So that is what drove us all together.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: That’s another thing to point out, too, when the Democrats are carping about not having access to this new media. It’s like, well, all the YouTube censors, let’s point out, are on your side. And you bloody well have Twitter, too, until Musk took it over.

DAVE RUBIN: Jordan, I don’t know what year it was, 2019, maybe there was a cover story on Sunday, New York Times with me, you, Thomas Sowell, Milton Friedman, I think Tim Pool, a couple of people that we were the YouTube leaders of the alt right. And they did an entire piece about multi page piece about how the YouTube algorithms were driving people to the right.

Think how absolutely bananas that right now, in retrospect, they had the entire machine. They had the entire machine. They used it against all of us while telling us that we were the ones using them in essence. And I guess they got their comeuppance. And that’s the beautiful part of this.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah. Well, thank God for free speech. That’s for sure.

DAVE RUBIN: That’s why we’re happy to have you in America, because it’s not going so well up in your country.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, that’s for sure, man. Liberals up there.

The State of Canadian Politics

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, so here’s something interesting, I guess, insofar as Canadian politics is interesting. But the world is such now and so upside down that even Canadian politics is like, oh, that’s not good.

And so Steven Guilbeault, who’s the minister of environment, who’s been waging war against the resource economy in Canada, which is, by the way, the economy in Canada. Right.

DAVE RUBIN: Right.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: And he declared a week and a half ago publicly that he was a socialist. And I thought French-Canadian socialist. And I thought, there’s a socialist party in Canada. That’s the NDP. It’s like, what the hell are you doing in the Liberal Party, which was a centrist party like the centrist Democrats forever and the natural governing party of Canada?

It’s like the progressives just invaded it. They didn’t care that it was a complete bloody lie that they had taken over the Liberal Party and turned it into left of the Socialist Party, actually. And and now they’re proclaiming that outright.

DAVE RUBIN: So what does that tell you about the week, the psychological, what I would say is weakness, but maybe I would want to hear your adjective on that of the good liberal, the good liberal who allowed all of this to come in? This is a compassion issue.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: You know, when all this started. And I think it was the same with you, you know, I regarded myself as a classic British liberal, essentially, but I’ve come to understand something over the last eight years that I didn’t understand.

In the beginning, as certainly not as well, anyways, is that that liberal individualism is only works when the collective is so well established that you can take it for granted.

DAVE RUBIN: Yes.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: So as long as the self-evident truths remain self-evident, then you can have something like a liberal individualism.

DAVE RUBIN: So it’s basically as long as the conservatives are holding the door from the barbarians, then the liberals can be liberal.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, yeah, exactly that.

DAVE RUBIN: And that’s how a functional society should work in essence.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, you know, in the story of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. So the shire is full of. Well, let’s call them liberals.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah, right. And they’re looking for stuff.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, they’re hobbits and they’re all pursuing their own thing and they think their little kingdom is everything.

But, you know, the borders are protected by the striders. Aragorn is one of them. And it turns out that he’s the descendant of ancient kings. And that’s exactly right. It’s like as long as the perimeters are defended by the descendants of ancient kings, then there can be freedom inside the walls. And so, you know, I’ve been criticized. The more public books I’ve written have been criticized for, what would you say, making a case out of the self-evident. But we are at a point where the self-evident is no longer self-evident and needs to be explained and defended. And that’s actually what would you say? That’s what’s turned me into a conservative to the degree that I am a conservative. It’s like, well, all these things that are self-evident have to be restated and also explained.

DAVE RUBIN: Right. You wouldn’t have had to have written 12 rules for life had the system been operating properly. That’s the point. You would think in the year 2000, when you wrote it, 2017, 16, whatever it was, that had the world actually been operating as it should have with all the advancements of humanity, it would not be necessary to say things that are just why would you pet a cat when you walk by it? Well, there’s a reason there’s actually a reason.

The Demise of Classic Liberals

You remember the way I’ll tell you a funny story in a sec. But, you know, Douglas, the line on this about the walls that Douglas has that I love, I love this. And he said this years ago was that one day the barbarians will be at the gate and we’ll be debating what gender pronouns to call them. And I think that’s what happened to the liberals.

They saw the chaos. And instead of confronting it as the conservatives and we can do the conservative version of this where their weak spots are, too, obviously. But instead of confronting what was going on, how good they had it, they decided to just that will let the crazy people just keep running around.

And then, you know, the guy’s trying to hold the door and we’ll just sort of chisel it as Achilles heel a little bit by not defending him. And we’ll kind of call him racist, too. Or when other people call him racist and he’s not really racist, we won’t say anything. And I think that that’s really what’s happened here.

It was sort of like, you know, when they took Alex Jones out originally, I had done Alex Jones show one time. It’s the only time we ever spoke publicly. I remember I said a little something on Twitter, but I was just like, ah, I don’t know how close I want to get to this thing. It’s all crazy. You know, we all have certain pressure points that we deal with and how much heat you want to take and everything else.

I think in retrospect, we all should have been screaming much, much louder. And a lot of people in our circles didn’t say a word about that when he got booted off Twitter and kicked off YouTube and all of those things that we all just thought, it’ll kind of never come for us. And to Trump’s credit, by the way, was his main line is they’re not coming for me. They’re coming for you. I’m just standing.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The fact that he got kicked off Twitter was a perfect example of that. That was just beyond comprehension as far as I was concerned.

The Inner Workings of Twitter’s Censorship System

DAVE RUBIN: Well, what really, really? You know, when I’m on, when I went to Twitter, when I got a call one day from someone at Twitter, basically saying, Elon wants to meet you. Can you get here tonight? It was at about three o’clock on a Tuesday or something, Tuesday or Thursday. And, uh, and I called everybody I knew who had a private plane. I was like, somebody’s got to get me over there. Nobody can get on.

I jump on a plane. I get to Twitter at about 1230 AM. This is like a week or two after he bought Twitter. And he comes at, you know, there’s all these people there. It’s just such a buzz. Right. And he comes out, it’s about 1230 AM. His eyes are bloodshot and, and he’s clearly tired. Right. And you’ve met him many times now. He, he dresses like a normal guy. He’s in like this ratty t-shirt. It’s late at night. You know, his sneakers are dirty and he’s clearly been there for God knows how long. Probably hasn’t slept five years.

Yeah. Probably hasn’t slept in however. Right. And he says to me, he goes, uh, he goes, Dave, I heard about what’s been going on with your account. He’s like, he’s like, do you want to do this tonight? Or if, if it’s okay, could we do it tomorrow? It’s like, this is insane. The world’s richest man is basically like, can I work for you tonight at 1 AM?

I was like, Oh, it’s actually okay. I’ll, I’ll come back tomorrow. And then I sat there the next day with a whole bunch of engineers who opened the hood of the thing and the entire system, the entire Twitter system was built to shadow ban. That’s it. Everything under the hood of Twitter was built to put filters and tags. And you said this, so now you can’t see this or you connected with that person. So now you can’t connect with this person. The entire system was built that way.

So Jack Dorsey, who was the CEO for much of it, he testified under oath that they do not shadow ban, but the whole freaking system was built that way. Now he probably legally didn’t get in trouble because shadow ban is not a technical term and he may have been, I think he was just playing with the words there.

But the point is there was an entire system basically built to silence a certain set of people and promote another set of people. And now it didn’t work. So how cool is that? How cool is that? And that’s where we’re at right now.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: How incredible. Yeah, that’s for sure. That’s for sure.

Canada’s Radical Turn and Trudeau’s Narcissism

Well, Dave, I guess we could turn back to Canada for a moment.

DAVE RUBIN: Yeah, sorry.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: No, no, no, no, no, no, that’s fine. Um, so the radicals have definitely taken over Canada and it’s really, it’s really quite bad. So when Trudeau was elected, we were at parity for per person GDP in Canada. And that’s historically about where Canada has been sometimes a little ahead.

DAVE RUBIN: Parity with America, you mean?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Parity with America, sometimes a little behind, more often a little behind, but now we’re at 60%. Canadians are poorer in per capita GDP than Mississippi residents, right? And our real estate is twice as expensive, right?

And so now the upside is that unfortunately, well, I said the upside, the upside is that it’s over, but it won’t come to its conclusion for a year, right? Poilievre is going to be the next Prime Minister unless some bloody, completely unforeseen catastrophe occurs, and that strikes me as unlikely. And the liberals who are now the socialists farther to the left than the NDP, who are the actual socialists, they’re going to get demolished so hard that they might disappear federally.

It’s going to be a bloodbath and it’s so well-deserved, but this is a big but. You said, you know, that Biden now has an opportunity in the next two months to do the right thing, and maybe he will. Trudeau has a year, and I believe Trudeau is a wounded narcissist.

So I thought he was narcissistic right from the beginning, and the reason I believe that was because he had no right to put himself forward as Prime Minister. He had no resume. He didn’t know anything. All he had was a name that he didn’t make known. His father, that’s all he had.

DAVE RUBIN: And he was a drama teacher.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, he was also good-looking, and he was graceful, and he was charming, and he knew how to behave in public.

DAVE RUBIN: That’s run pretty thin, though.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: I know, but it wasn’t nothing, right? So you want to give the devil his due. But in terms of competence, that was just completely lacking, and also the ability to see that he didn’t have the knowledge or the ability to run a country. That was lacking.

Now, when he was first approached, I thought, okay, you could refuse, or because of the heritage of your family, let’s say, you don’t want the conservatives to win, and so you decide to stand for Prime Minister, but you understand very clearly that you don’t know what the hell you’re doing at all.

And so you surround yourself with people who are experts, and you let them teach you, and he did none of that. I mean, he set up a cabinet that was half women in 2015, and that’s why he said he did it, because it was 2015, even though only one in four MPs were women. So he set up a bad cabinet to begin with, because he over-selected from 25% of the population, and that was all virtue signaling. And so he started out as a narcissist, and he never changed.

And now one of the problems with narcissists is that when everybody likes them, they can be quite benevolent, because their greatness is recognized. But when people decide that they’re detestable, which is pretty much where Trudeau has got in Canada, it’s very hard for him to go out in public now without people literally cursing him.

Then it’s time for revenge. And he’s got a bill tabled right now called Bill C-63, which has gone through first reading, so it’s on the way to becoming law. It makes Bill C-16, which was the one I objected to, look like child’s play. This is the most totalitarian bill I’ve ever seen a Western country produce by a large margin.

DAVE RUBIN: This is about registering the news organizations?

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: That’s part of it. Well, it’s a bill to reduce online harm. That’s its name, and it starts out with a description of how children are going to be protected from sexual predators online, and it ends with that.

But in the middle, there’s a whole new bureaucracy that has all the powers of a judiciary, and it’s infinitely expandable, that isn’t bound by the rules of standard evidence, which it says in the bill, which is just beyond comprehension to me. And it has pretty much unlimited powers of seizure and investigation and punishment, life in prison for hate crime with all these protected groups.

And the worst of it is that this is, I can’t even believe this can possibly be true. I can take you in front of a provincial magistrate, and if I convince the provincial magistrate that I’m afraid that you might commit a hate crime in the next year, say with your Twitter utterances, he’ll affix a electronic surveillance bracelet to your leg and keep you in your house for a year.

DAVE RUBIN: It’s pre-crime. You saw a minority report, it’s pre-crime.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, it’s pre-crime. Absolutely, absolutely. And this is the weirdest part of it. I can’t even believe that this can possibly be true, that you will have to provide samples of your bodily fluids when requested to assure that you’re not, I don’t know what, drinking, smoking pot.

I think what happened was that’s a requirement if you’re in a domestic abuse case, right? Because if you’re drunk, you’re much more likely to be a domestic abuser. And so arguably, there might be some sense if you’ve been convicted of domestic abuse of making that a condition of, let’s say, you’re released back into the community.

But as a defense against what? The kind of pre-crime that, well, that’s exactly it. It’s like someone’s afraid that you might do something that is hateful. Well, that’s just part of that.

DAVE RUBIN: They need to take him up on that. That would be something that that’s how the movie ends. He gets taken up on the same law.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Biden vs Trudeau: Time for Redemption?

DAVE RUBIN: But so so your concern, though, is that so it’s interesting because on one hand, you think that what I laid out with Biden is is possible because it’s a truncated period of time. Basically, what you’re saying to me is because Trudeau now has too much time, it could go — it could really go much worse.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Virtually certain that that’s what —

DAVE RUBIN: Do you think if he had a truncated period of time like Biden does, that it would get better because he would be looking at the end much more closely. So that’s interesting. So you think there’s something.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: So I agree with that. I think all of them will be out for revenge. I mean, I can already see that Steven Guilbeault, who’s — he’s the worst sort of progressive imaginable. He would sacrifice the poor to his green delusions. He is that’s exactly what he is doing. That’s what he’s doing. He’s already declared war, essentially, on the Western provinces and Alberta in particular, even though his own province, Quebec, depends on the money Alberta sends them to to maintain anything that resembles advanced industrial economy.

So I think they’ll really do damage to Canada in the next year. And then Poilievre will have to come in and mop up. And he’s going to have a very tough fight on his hands because things are worse in Canada than Canadians believe. And they’re likely worse than I know. And we won’t know how bad they are till Poilievre takes power and then they’ll all be blamed on him.

So. Yeah, so things are so — Canadians are in for a rough time and they haven’t woken up, I wouldn’t say, you know, I wouldn’t say that the typical Canadian, for example, was a Trump supporter. Right. They’re still trapped in that centrist, progressive mindset that is completely ignorant of the danger of the radical leftists.

DAVE RUBIN: Well, I can tell you that we have an awful lot of snowbirds, we call them down in Florida who are Canadians who are not going back.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah.

DAVE RUBIN: They’re everywhere I go now. They’re Canadians everywhere. And they’re like, you know, I don’t know that they’re not technically they’re supposed to go back at some point, of course, but like they’re staying a lot longer than they used to, for sure. Even this summer, you know, yeah, you don’t have a lot of Canadians usually come into a Florida summer.

Yeah, they are because they realize what’s going on there. Yeah, yeah. Well, you need Canada to wake up to a sense of that’s for sure.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Well, there are there are signs of improvement. You know, Daniel Smith’s tough as a boot, the premier of Alberta and Poilievre, as far as I can tell, he’s a man with a spine. He’s not easy to push around. And I think he’s sensible. And I actually do think that he actually cares about working class people. So like the Trump, like Trump, weirdly enough, because Trump actually cares about working class people.

And so having worked with him for so long as well, and so and understands them as well, which is and the Democrats made that decision under Hillary Clinton to throw the white working class in particular, just under the bus. And so say to me, man —

DAVE RUBIN: God, they had no reason to do that. Well, I guess the reason was to attain power. And they they did it.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: They made it calculated risk to to go for the marginal and and.

DAVE RUBIN: All right. Your line about the fringe of the fringe, I quote on my show often, too, because that’s the other part that could sort of trap us as we sort of split and we were all online getting our own news sources and scavenging, as you said. Yeah, we’re always there’s always going to be new fringes like that’s really going to be the new thing.

The one argument you could make for the mainstream or the corporate would be, yeah, it did keep the Overton window a little bit like this. So we all at least dealt with some, even if the reality was very skewed to what was really real, at least it was a little bit.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah. No, I think that’s right.

DAVE RUBIN: Now we’re dancing out here all the time. And I think that’s going to be. And then when you throw AI on top of that, that’s going to be — that’s going to really be the next challenge.

Reflecting on Their Friendship and Journey

DAVE RUBIN: Let me give you something before. All right. We wrap up this 500th Jordan Peterson podcast. You can read you can read the card privately, but that’s from a couple of weeks ago. And I think it’s.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Oh, that’s a nice picture, man. Not bad. Right. Both much better looking than we actually are. So that’s good.

DAVE RUBIN: A little Photoshop, a little high contrast Photoshop.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, exactly. Did you run through the AI filter that what does that do? That makes your eyes a little wider.

DAVE RUBIN: I have a team of many people who can do all sorts of tricks. You know, we’re going to look as good as we can right there. But but even just doing that together after all these years, it was like it was like the perfect sort of next phase of where we’re at with all of this. You know, we talked about the ideas. I built a tech company in the middle of all.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah, right.

DAVE RUBIN: We tried to. Yeah. We tried to do that story today.

Let me just say one thing, because you it’s probably never been said publicly before. But everyone knows all the great things about you. But when you were starting to get sick and we were working on the idea together, you would had your version of it at first.

And I put in one hundred thousand dollars. And then you realize that you were not going to be available for a while. And I think the last time we spoke for then a year was you saying, Dave, take take the money back, because if I can’t be involved in this, you should take them. I don’t even know if you remember that even.

But like you didn’t have to do that. You didn’t have to do that. And then with that money, I then started locals. And then and then that all worked.

Yeah. So we did. So anyway, I brought you back because I thought it was nice that we then ended up on stage just weeks before the election with RFK and Tulsi and so many of these people we’ve talked about.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Oh, so that was at D. C.

DAVE RUBIN: That was D. C. just a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. And what a wild and crazy ride it has been.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: That’s for sure. And the thing is, it’s not over. Good to see you, Dave.

DAVE RUBIN: Good to see, man.

DR. JORDAN B. PETERSON: Yeah. Thanks for coming in. So as you know, everybody, we’ve got another half an hour on The Daily Wire and so I’ll continue my conversation with Mr. Rubin there.

And you’re obviously all invited to come over to the dark side, The Daily Wire people and throw a little support their way, which is, I always think, a good investment, given that they’ve been staunch defenders of the very free speech that we’ve been talking about and right from the beginning.

And so with all this shakeup in the media world, what The Daily Wire doing is doing is, well, continues to be of, who knows how much import. So join us on The Daily Wire side. Thanks again, Dave. Pretty good to see you.

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