Read the full transcript of conversation between ARC Research’s Benedict Rogers and author Ayaan Hirsi Ali at ARC Research Interviews, Mar 11, 2025.
Listen to the audio version here:
TRANSCRIPT:
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] I’m Benedict Rogers, the Director of Research at ARC, and I’m really delighted to be joined today by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has written a very important essay in ARC’s new book, The Best of Our Inheritance, and who I’ve admired and followed for a long time, so it’s a privilege to finally be talking with you.
The Best of Our Inheritance
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] Ayaan, can I ask, first of all, what is the overall message of your essay in this book?
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] It’s what’s the best of our inheritance, what’s the best of the inheritance of Western civilization, and I try to capture it in these three themes. It’s Christian morality, it’s critical thinking, it’s common sense.
The Christian morality speaks for itself, the critical thinking is this ability to reflect. So I know we’re losing our way, I know we’re doing a lot of things wrong, but it’s really unique to Western civilization to sit down and say, so what did we get wrong in the past and how can we fix it? And then fix it.
It is the ability to problem solve, to approach big and sometimes smaller questions with this attitude of, okay, how can we solve the problem? And if you take on that attitude, you can cut through the ideologies, you can cut through the subjectivities, you can cut through the private interests, and you can therefore generate something of a more of a public mission to change things around.
And so that’s, my message is we have to be optimistic because the history of Western civilization is a good history. It’s a great history. Western civilization has been an enormously good force for humanity. There’s so much to be proud of and so much to be grateful for. And all these years of trying to talk us down into depression, into demoralization, is wrong. It’s been effective. We see it now. We see that this was done by people with various agendas, and these agendas are destructive. We see right through them, and we can name them, and we can shame them, and we can marginalize them.
And I think my optimism is now being borne out by what’s happening in my country, the United States of America, where 77 million people of every ethnicity and color and religion and non-religion in America have decided we don’t want this decline, whether it’s managed or not. America is a great nation. We’re very proud of it, and we’re exceptional. We have these problems, and we’re going to vote differently.
And I mean, so far, I can’t say I’m disappointed. I love the pace with which all of these changes are happening, and my favorite agency in America is DOGE, led by Elon Musk, which is, you see how practical it is and problem-solving. It is, let’s go through the books. Let’s do an audit of every government agency and see what we find. And it’s just been amazing. That’s what, in short, I tried to get through in the essay.
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] That’s wonderful. Well, it comes through very powerfully. One of the things that is so unique about your essay is you write very much from your own personal experience as someone who, as you put it in, I think, the beginning of the essay, have lived under authoritarianism, communism, socialism, Islamist theocracy, and then democracy. What is it about Western civilization, and specifically our Judeo-Christian heritage, that enables freedom, critical thinking, human flourishing, that those repressive ideologies that you were raised under does not?
The Uniqueness of Western Civilization
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] So, again, I started in a clan, the bloodline, let’s call that tribalism, and then my family was in that, and then communism came along, and the theocracy, Saudi Arabia, and Western civilization.
What is so unique about Western civilization is the moral Christian teaching that we’re created in the image of God, and so that is the impulse to recognize human dignity, to affirm it, to preserve it, and that every time we get that wrong, things go sideways.
You don’t have that in the clan system. In the clan system, it is loyalty to your own bloodline, your own clan, and to regard other clans and other tribes as enemies, and there’s always this zero-sum dynamic between clans. If I don’t free them fast, and take what’s theirs, and enslave them, and take their women, and kill their children, they will do that to me. So I have to go fast, and so I always say the clan mentality, the tribal mentality, is by definition genocidal, because you can’t tolerate the other, you’re constantly worried they’ll come and destroy you.
Communism is in its core, it’s nihilistic. First of all, it’s collectivist, it’s just, I’d say, a form of tribalism, which is secular, and which is, they have these wonderful, fancy, modern words, but at its core, it’s the same thing. The have-nots are to stand up and destroy the haves.
Now that whole story on the economic level of communism, that failed, and we’ve seen mass starvations, as I described, and mass murder, and so then they twisted it and brought back this identity politics where they divide society into those who are oppressed and those who are oppressors, and so the mission of the oppressed is to stand up and destroy the oppressors and bring down the structures. They don’t really have an optimistic recipe for this is how to lead a good life, this is how to coexist with one another, and we can create a pie that gets bigger and bigger so that there’s enough for everyone. That’s not the story of communism.
Then there’s Islamism, that leads to the Islamic theocratic state, again, divides the world into those who believe and those who don’t believe, those who are Muslim are in the house of Islam, those who don’t believe are in the house of force, so you have to wage war to achieve what you think is God’s mission, to Islamize and then bring about peace and so on.
Western civilization is very different from all of that.
The message that Jesus Christ brought and affirmed was, love thy neighbor as you love yourself, and the civilization that was built on that is just what has given us this amazing, again, I’m not saying Western countries and Western societies didn’t make mistakes, they did, but it’s the only civilization that actually talks about those mistakes and reflects on them.
It’s the only Western society that actually looks back and says, slavery was a bad thing, we did it and we’re really, really sorry, and how can we never do that again? We had these wars, we had fascism, we had communism, we had Nazism, those were bad things, these collectivist ideas are bad things, let’s reflect on them, let’s not do them again.
It’s only the West that’s doing that, all of these other civilizations are not yet there, they aren’t doing that, and if they do it, the terminology they use is Western, the values they adopt are Western, even the models, think of the nation states, that they build to bring about a society that has this balance of freedom and equality and order is Western. So I think the West has a lot to be proud of.
Reaching the Next Generation
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] How do you think we can get that message across to the current young and future generations? You may have seen the story in the Times newspaper a few days ago that Gen Z, a high percentage are saying they won’t fight for the country, they don’t believe in the country, they believe Britain is inherently racist, all these negative and totally wrong views, and yet as you say, Western civilization above all other civilizations has this ability when we do do things that are wrong to course correct. How can we convey this message to the young generation, the next generation about what is so special about our civilization?
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] It’s to talk to them and to, I’ve now developed a relationship with a number of Gen Zs and I’m really impressed by how intelligent they are and how well-informed they are and they do acknowledge that many of their fellow youngsters are pathetic and are disappointed in what they see of their culture. They’ve been told relentlessly that they are racists, that they’re oppressors, that they’re exploiters, number one. Number two, economically they’ve been marginalized, they’ve been saddled with all this debt. My husband Neil Ferguson has sleepless nights
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] …about the amount of debts that the next generation has to pay and he says, well, that’s compromised their future. And so you have a lot of Gen Zs still living with their parents who can’t afford to get on the housing ladder and who can’t afford to have children and so on. So, they’ve been, I think in many ways, they’ve been really badly treated by the prior generations, X and the boomers.
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] Those who are awake do see the problems and they do understand that their civilization really is the best and I’m sure they will fight for it, but it is a question of having, it’s a question of convening, bringing the leaders of this Gen Z and younger Millennials together to develop ideas and ways. Again, that’s that problem solving, critical thinking, common sense approach of this is how we can recapture our institutions of education, of religion, of culture, especially in government, our institutions of politics. And I’m very pleased so far by what I see on both sides of the Atlantic. That’s very encouraging.
The Role of Truth in Western Civilization
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] You describe in your essay how lies are the means that totalitarian systems sustain themselves. Why is this? And in contrast, how important is truth in Western civilization? And to what extent is it under threat today?
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] Truth is really the most important aspect of human life and Christianity insists on truth, on honesty, on transparency, on accountability, on science. Look around you, what God has made in all and then describe it and from description comes attempts at trying to explain and that gives them forth to the whole problem solving of man over nature, but of course also respectful of nature.
The lies, especially in terms of politics, it’s about power, it’s about naked power, it’s about maximizing power. And when you think about the principle of democracy where the idea is that you persuade citizens to come to your way of thinking about a particular problem and solving it, you have to be very truthful, you have to have the courage to put your manifesto, whatever your ideas are, out there in the open. That invites scrutiny back, critical thinking and criticism.
The lying is when you don’t do that and you just have to tell people what they think and you don’t want to show what your ideas are. I mean, the latest is the neo-communist woke or wokeism that’s adopted by many of our elites, people who used to be on the center-left, who have abandoned the exercise of persuading the electorate as to why certain policies should be implemented or if they’re in place should be maintained like open borders. It’s persuading me why you think that’s a good idea. How they don’t persuade anymore they decide they lie and when the lies don’t work then they start the whole censorship and suppressive behaviors and so that’s I think where the lie comes from but the lie can be defeated by the truth and freedom of speech is absolutely necessary because you want citizens should have the ability to be able not only to complain but to analyze problems and then try and develop the best possible answer to some of these very difficult conundrums that we’re facing.
From Atheism to Christianity: A Personal Journey
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] That leads very neatly on to my penultimate question if I may, a somewhat more personal question because you’ve gone on a remarkable journey being raised in Islam, going through atheism and then publicly becoming a Christian. Could you just share briefly what it was that appealed to you personally about Christianity and why after all your years of very public atheism you adopted the Christian faith?
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] My years in atheism were partly also a very strong denial of spirituality and the need for human beings to have a spiritually, probably really the most important need for those of us who have it. I’ve come to recognize it as the most important need because I had everything materially that I could desire but was still deeply unhappy and didn’t understand what was going on. And then you know in the pursuit of trying to find a cure I ran into this therapist who said but your problem is not what you think it is, your problem is spiritual and I can’t help you with that.
And so that forced me to turn towards God and that forced me to choose then which God and the God of truth, the God of reality. We human beings are born as none of us are perfect, we’re born as sinners and you know recognizing that, dealing with it, I turned to God in prayer and it is through that surrender that I found actual freedom and I want to say I’ve always been in pursuit of freedom but I always misunderstood it and I finally really feel free, free from all of these impulses and urges and dogmas and the fear all of these anxieties you know what are people going to think this and I think part of why I remained within the atheist fold was to give myself permission to explore and do something about my spiritual needs meant that I would be thought of as unintelligent, I would be indulging in superstitious pursuits and that I think that was the barrier and once I lost that anxiety I now can see how incredibly enriching it is to not only have faith but to have the right faith.
And to you know we’re talking about Western civilization how Christianity, Judeo-Christian, Old Testament, New Testament how that’s all the basis for this amazing civilization and it’s just so enriching and to think when I was an atheist I had blocked all of that off even intellectually that I just wasn’t interested in anything you know what we used to do sometimes would be we would admire some of the Enlightenment thinkers but very consciously decide not to see that those who are Christians not to recognize that they were actually Christian and that many of them were men of faith and we would suppress that because that would affirm our atheism.
So now I lead a wonderful life free of anxiety and it’s a life of humility as well it’s a life of optimism and it’s a life that grounds you in reality you see I’m no longer afraid of reality and when I see people voting for this delusion or that delusion it’s a fear of reality yeah but you really have to understand you have to don’t run away from reality engage it and Christianity helps me.
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] That’s wonderful.
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] Yes it’s real. Absolutely yes.
The Importance of “The Best of Our Inheritance”
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] One final question, why should people read this book “The Best of Our Inheritance” and what is your hope for what will come from it?
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] People should read the book number one because what’s in there is it is interesting and it’s true but more importantly you will find others who think just like you, you will find this is ARC the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship is a network. I remember in 2020 when the whole George Floyd thing came into the public scene there were people who thought wait a second something is going on here that doesn’t make sense, we didn’t have ARC, we didn’t have someone to a place to network with so I think we all got swept away in that wave of far-left sentiment and I always say if we had had an alliance like ARC you could all be texting and calling each other and saying hang on do you see what I see and then the next step would be the responsibility aspect of it as a citizen what should I do about it and that would be then the convening and then the countering of his terrible ideas that was spread with such speed.
I don’t know if you remember that period but the people were on the streets shouting defund the police, they’d introduced a whole new racism, white people were all oppressors and they had to be you know what was it unconscious bias training and watching this and thinking my goodness me people were throwing money at you and encouraging it and stripping the police down in America at some point people were thinking that maybe 10,000 black men were killed a year you know just such nonsense. Yeah we didn’t have ARC, yes we have ARC now and that is why you should not only read the book but go on YouTube and watch the segments listen to the segments and then eventually sign up and subscribe and come here and form your own ARC and grow the network.
[BENEDICT ROGERS:] Well that’s a wonderful note on which to end. Ayaan Hirsi Ali it’s been a privilege to speak to you, thank you for contributing this essay and thank you for your time.
[AYAAN HIRSI ALI:] Thank you very much, thank you for having me.
