Transcript of The Jewish Parent’s Guide to Money, Work and Family: Moishe Bane

Yes, even with a father and a mother telling their children this, but it’s not very practical to them when they’re living in someone else’s house and then they’re in the working world potentially making money. And some people are making more money than they ever thought that they would. And now they’re supposed to know this. How do we bridge that gap?

MOISHE BANE: Well, what you’re identifying is a problem with regard to finances, but it’s a problem with regard to all aspects of life, which is that children do not learn from their parents by being told by their parents. They learn from their parents by being modeled by their parents.

I think a child who grows up in a home that observes their parents looking at money in a healthy way and looking at restricting lifestyle not because they can’t afford it, but rather because that’s their value system. That child, when they come into money and start making more money than they imagine, they’ll know how to deal with that. And it’s not going to because they were told or lectured, whether it be from their schooling or from their home, it’s by modeling at home.

And parents aren’t doing that. In fact, there’s a whole culture in some communities or some families that we don’t talk about money. We don’t evidence where we’re at. It’s like something we should keep private from our children. And I don’t think that’s the right attitude to have. I think it’s a very healthy to illustrate to your children, this is the way we deal with money, this is the way we deal with success, this is the way we deal with stress when it’s difficult. And you’re modeling for your children how they’re going to behave when they get older.

Practical Examples of Teaching Money Values

ELI LANGER: My son came over to me yesterday, 10 years old, and he said, do we have this much money? And I said, yeah, wasn’t a lot of money. And then he said, what about this much money? It’s starting to awaken. What conversations did you have with your kids growing up or what did you do to instill? Because you said it’s not about speaking to them, but showing them. What practical examples have you imparted or did you learn by mistake?

MOISHE BANE: Thank God we were very successful with our children who grew up very healthy in all regards, including their perspective on income and lifestyle. I think a lot of it came from decisions we made as a family. For example, when we made decisions not to indulge in things that others within the community were doing and our children saw from our general surroundings we could afford to do them and we weren’t doing them because we didn’t think they were necessary or appropriate. That was an enormous message.

So, for example, others in their class would be going on fancy midwinter vacations and we wouldn’t because we didn’t think that was healthy for them. They knew we could afford it. I was doing well and they saw where I was at in my career, but they saw that wasn’t what we were prioritizing. I think that they were able to learn from that.

I think one of the most interesting ways for parents to model for their children is not only not lecturing to them and not only not how they behave, which may be in subtle ways that children may not even be able to perceive, but what parents are talking about and who they are looking up to as models and what their praising and what they’re saying is irresponsible.

In the street now, there’s a very famous commentary. Rabbeinu Yonah makes a comment on one of the passages that says if you want to judge a person, the term in Hebrew is ish lifi mahalalo, which is conventionally explained to mean listen to what people say about him, and then you’ll know what kind of person a person is. Rabbeinu Yonah says, that’s not what it means ishlafi mahalalet. What it means is listen to what he says about others. That will define his value system.

So if you’re sitting around a Shabbos table and talking about, this guy’s making so much money, he’s so successful, or look at the house they’re building, you’re conveying to your children a value. By contrast, if you’re conveying to the children, look at that person how sne is, how modest he’s living and how he’s focusing on values. That’s how children learn, and that’s what they adopt.

When you lecture to them, then they automatically create a barrier. And even if it may be listened to, there’s a resistance, there’s a defensive mechanism that we all put up. Not only children, we put up. When someone comes and tells me something, I may agree with them intellectually, but they’re lecturing me. Children are no different. You can’t do it directly. You have to do it through modeling and through talking about other people.

ELI LANGER: I heard a story that you shared, and I’d love for you to share it about your kids sitting next to you in shul. What happened?

MOISHE BANE: Well, it’s not really related to this. It’s just.

ELI LANGER: No, but it’s about how, in terms of the education or lack thereof.

The Big Lie: Working for Your Children vs. Being With Your Children

MOISHE BANE: Right. Well, it really is talking about the fact that what children want. And, you know, I have a term when I teach college kids about finances, among other things, and I tell them that what children really want is not luxuries, not indulgences. What they want is an authentic relationship with their parents.

And very often, parents will convince themselves that rather than spending time with their children, rather than giving attention to their children, they’re going to work extra hard to make more money so they could do more things for their children. I call that the big lie. You know, parents have this big lie. I’m working all day, 40 hours a day, you know, 90 hours a week for my children. Come on, that’s not for your children. It’s a big lie. Or I’m going to take my family to Hawaii for three weeks for the kids. It’s not for the kids. You’re using your children as an excuse to indulge in things that you want to do. It’s a big lie.

You know what your kids want? The kids want a relationship with you. You know, we know in Judaism we say that the entire experience of being an observant Jew is in order to get reward. We want reward where it’s. There’s reward and punishment. That’s a basic tenet of Judaism. And our rabbis teach us, what is that reward? Is it to have more money? Is it to have more comfort? Those are nice things and we appreciate them. The real reward in Judaism is having a relation with God. That’s what we’re striving for. That’s the reward. That’s what we desire, that’s what we strive for. Children have that same attitude. You know what a reward is for children? Spend time with your child. That’s what the real reward is.

The Best Day: A Powerful Story

You know, there’s a famous story about a early 19th century politician, United States, who had a child who also became a well known literary figure. And the child tells a story that he was going through different boxes in the attic, the grandchild, and he finds boxes of diaries from his grandfather, the diplomat, and boxes of diaries of his father, the literary person.

And he finds a box of his grandfather and he’s going through the diary. And he comes to a day and the grandfather writes, today was the worst day you could imagine. I was supposed to take my son fishing. We woke up really early and it was pouring, thundering pouring, but we went anyway and we got into the car and the car wouldn’t start and we had to get it fixed. And finally we got there and we get to the boat and there was a leak in the boat and it was pouring. And we went out for a couple of hours and we didn’t catch a single fish. We came back, we were drenched, we were freezing. What a terrible day.

And the grandson says, I wonder what my father thought about that day. And he goes through the diaries and he finds his father’s diary that day. He opens it up and the sons, his father, the son of the grandfather, says in his diary, today was the best day of my life. I spend it with dad. That’s what kids want. And this big lie about doing all these other things for them, that’s missing the point.

Children Want to Be With Parents Who Want to Be With Them

So the story that I share, true story, is that we used to pray in a particular synagogue Friday night. I have three sons, I have a daughter and three sons. And my three sons would come with me every Friday night to prayers and we would sit together.

And one Friday night, one of the other fellows in the synagogue comes over to me and says, “Bane, you’re not a nice guy.” I said to the guy, “I know I’m not a nice guy, but how do you know I’m not a nice guy?” He goes, “Look in the back. All the kids are sitting there with their friends. And you won’t let your sons sit with their friends.”

I said, “I gotta tell you the truth. I’ve never ever told my sons to sit with me in synagogue.” He says, “Yeah, so why are they sitting with you?”

“Because you want to know why? I’ll make you a recommendation. Tonight after services are over, go outside and watch men with children walk home. And if they’re walking home talking to their friends, you know what they’re telling their kids? I’d rather talk to my friends than to you. And you know what the kids are going to say? I’d rather talk to my friends than to you. But those fathers who are walking home telling their friends, ‘Good Shabbos, I’m walking with my children’ and talking to their children, those children are going to want to sit with their fathers.”

And that’s the way we need to behave. We have to convey to our children that there’s nothing more valuable in our life than spending time with our children. And frankly, if we do that, then our children will be dying to follow our examples because they’ll see that we really care about them.

ELI LANGER: I was in Starbucks this morning and there was a father there. Happened not to be Jewish, but I think as Jews we struggle with this all the same. And the kids were eating their sandwiches and the father was on the phone. Pretty standard. And the older daughter, maybe 9, 10 years old, turns to her father and says, “Dad, put your phone down. It’s family time.”

Even Young Children Understand More Than We Think

MOISHE BANE: That’s great, but it’s a real problem. I mean, I sit sometimes at my window on the phone while looking outside, and I see young mothers pushing their baby carriages, their strollers, talking on the phone without realizing that’s precious time to be talking to your children.

One of the things that we have an absence of appreciation for is even young children, even before they are able to speak, are very attentive to what we’re saying and what we’re doing. And when we talk to young children, even before they’re able to articulate a response, they’re imbibing what we’re sending them as messages. Number one, the fact that we’re caring about them and we’re paying attention to them, it changes their whole self image and what they feel about themselves when their parents are spending that kind of attention.

But they’re even listening to the words. You know, one of the interesting things about how we deal with young children is that we mistakenly assume that when they can’t articulate ideas, it’s because they don’t understand ideas. We say when we talk to an adult who can’t speak, it means he doesn’t understand what’s going on. And therefore I could say anything, I could do anything, I could be fighting with somebody else. He’s not going to understand what’s going on.

Young children, even before they’re able to speak, they’re not idiots, they’re not dumb, they’re very intelligent beings. They just don’t have the skills to articulate. But it’s all going into their minds and they’re imbibing all of this information. And when they get older, they it’s in their mind and it’s going to come out. And therefore, when you deal with young children, be careful about what you’re saying to them and be careful about making sure you’re giving them the attention. And even more so for parents, make sure you’re careful about what you say to each other. When your children are around, even when they’re very, very young, they’re hearing you and that’s going to be part of their consciousness.

The Challenge of Every Generation

ELI LANGER: This big lie that you referred to where someone is overworking so that they can provide for their family or over provide for their family. Do you see that as part of American culture and it’s worse in this time in this country, or has this been potentially an issue that’s been around for generations in every country?

MOISHE BANE: You know, it’s an interesting thing. A number of years ago about 10 years ago, myself and a group of others, other four gentlemen, were putting out an online journal. And I was the one who was designated to edit all the articles that were submitted for this journal. And it was about the Jewish community and social and religious issues confronting the Jewish community.

And I would edit all these articles and I would, over time, notice that there was one phrase that I was crossing out more than any other phrase that was being submitted over and over again. And that phrase was “Never before has it been so hard to blank.” You know, never before. Like one, we did one issue about raising religious children today. How do you imbue religion? And three or four of the writers: “Never before has it been so hard to raise a family religiously.”

I would write comments. “Oh, in the Warsaw ghetto, it was much easier, right? In the famines of Ukraine, it was much easier. Give me a break.” It’s the same. Everything is the same. We have different challenge formats. The challenges are always the same.

You know, maybe it’s greater challenge today because there’s more opportunities than we had during the famines in the Ukraine. And we’re working harder today for excess rather than to just put food on the table when it is justifiable to be working 20 hours a day if you have to feed your children. But that’s not what you’re asking about, excess. We’re always… That’s a human nature. If we… Unless we put into check a very deliberate mindset of controlling how we behave. It’s a natural tendency, unless we’re lazy. But we’re talking about people who are put together who want to be successful. Now we just have to define what success is going to mean.

ELI LANGER: I’ve mentioned before on this podcast where growing up, I’ve heard from adults, you don’t realize how lucky you have it to be in school. I wish I was in yeshiva again. Never really understood what it meant until there is real anxiety felt as to ensuring there’s money coming in, that revenues in the household are more than the expenses. And I have friends, you know, when it’s Friday, 5 o’clock, they take a sigh of relief. And Sunday night, the stress and the anxiety comes into play. Is that in need of a mindset shift or is that real? How do you cope with that as a father or provider when there’s tangible money that needs to be made, but you’re not clear on what is real anxiety versus something that’s just a hamster in a wheelhouse on the wheel and the mind just working overtime?

Balancing Stress and Priorities

MOISHE BANE: I think the question I would have to ask you is what is the objective of alleviating the stress? Is the objective of alleviating the stress to live a more tranquil life and work less, spend less hours doing things? Or is the objective to be able to stress about other things? Because there are many things we should be stressed about, there are many things we should have anxiety about, there are many things we should be exuding our efforts about that we’re not able to because we’re so engaged in trying to make money.

Is the objective, no, I want to have an easy life? I don’t want to be working so hard? Or there’s so many other things I want to be doing for my community, for my families that I don’t have the time to do? That’s a source of stress I really want to deal with.

But I don’t think the objective of life is to live a stress-free life. I don’t think that’s a legitimate goal, particularly for an Orthodox Jew. I think an Orthodox Jew is supposed to constantly be under pressure to do more questions in what arena and sometimes what we do, particularly if we are successful financially, is that we retain our focus on the financial dimensions of life and allow that to be what occupies our stress. Rather than say, okay, I have enough now, if I work harder, try to make more money, I’m sacrificing an opportunity to stress about other things that may be more valuable. That should be the calculation rather than, I don’t want to have stress anymore, I want to have an easy life. That’s not our objective.

ELI LANGER: So we spoke about stress. What about guilt? Parent guilt is real. Children have this way of you can spend time with them on a Sunday and you both love it and it’s great. And then 7 o’clock rolls around on a Sunday, oh, I didn’t get to do this. Or we supposed to go here or hey, I wanted to play more. And there’s no referee saying, 15 yard penalty on the sun. Your father did an imperfect job today. You know, there’s guilt. There’s guilt as it relates to, you know, dad guilt, as my friend calls it.

Guilt vs. Regret in Parenting

MOISHE BANE: Well, let me start with the observation that guilt, although it’s in the popular literature, is a classical Jewish emotion, is a very non-Torah Jewish emotion. We frown on guilt. Guilt is a very counterproductive emotion that we need to overcome. We have to distinguish between guilt and regret. The difference between guilt and regret is guilt is counterproductive, guilt is paralyzing. Regret is, I’m going to learn from my mistakes. I’m going to do it differently.

So on that Sunday night, when the father looks back at the weekend, does he say, I should have done it differently or, hey, that’s life. And if it’s that’s life, then okay, then you’re doing it right. The fact that a child will lament about whatever happened. Children have an enormous capacity for forgiveness. And again, one of the amazing things about life is a kid could be so angry with you one minute and two minutes later be looking to play again with you. I mean, kids are much more forgiving than adults are.

But I don’t think you should allow yourself to get so caught up in a child’s pouting or complaining. They’ll get past it as long as they care. What children really care about, which they won’t forgive, is when they perceive their parents making decisions for their children that the child perceives is really in the parent’s best interest rather than the child’s best interest. A child who sees parents making decisions for them that is only being made to either elevate the family status, not what’s best for the child, or because the parent had this aspiration in life and they weren’t able to fulfill it, so therefore they’re going to force their kid to do it. That a child will resent and not get over.

When a parent is doing their job properly and the child is able to see it, because children get it, are doing everything that they think is in the best interest of the child. The child may complain, they’ll get past it, and they’ll love the parent and will appreciate everything the parent did for them.

Identity and Career

ELI LANGER: Do you see people’s identity very tied up in their job? And I know that’s an American specific thing, you know, in other places, but when someone says, hey, I haven’t seen you in a while, what are you up to? What are you doing? It’s always straight to business. Do you see that as a problem within the Jewish community, or are we above that?

MOISHE BANE: I don’t know that we have it as intensely as the rest of society, but it’s certainly an issue and we perpetuate it. How many times have you seen an adult go over to a child and say to the child, so what do you plan on being when you grow up? And what are they asking? What job are you going to have? That’s telling a child early on, educating them that that is who you are going to be, rather than what kind of person do you want to be?

And even the way parents focus their children’s mindset is they’re training them for their job. They’re not training them to be the kind of person that they should be. And frankly, I even think that’s a mistake from an economic perspective. I think when parents are training their children for a particular career path, rather than to develop the skill sets and the personality and persona and character that will give them the opportunities to decide when they’re older what direction they want to take it, they’re stifling their child.

What is very common is to focus on this career path that I’m going to give them the schooling and the skills that fit with that. I think they’re stifling their child, and they’re also creating an identity for that child, which is what you’re referencing.

I don’t think it’s exclusive. I think there are many families within our community that get it and do very healthy approaches to child rearing. To raise their children to be pious people, to focus on growing spiritually. I think there’s a lot of that. Much more than the rest of society by a long shot. But does it still seep in? Yeah, it seeps in. We’re not immune from the culture and something that we have to focus on and be very deliberate in trying to avoid.

ELI LANGER: What’s your message to somebody that perhaps has had guilt because they’re overly absorbed in their professional life? That has been their identity. And they said, hmm, Rabbi Bane says I shouldn’t feel guilt. I should have regret. I can still make changes.

MOISHE BANE: Well, I just. First of all, I think it’s important that you don’t call me Rabbi Bane. I’m a rabbi, but I’m a lawyer. I practiced law for 40 years. That’s really all of my perspectives and experiences are not coming from a rabbinic pulpit, is coming from being a member of the community, being a member of the professional world.

ELI LANGER: So what’s Moishe Esquire’s message to the world?

Finding Meaning in Professional Life

MOISHE BANE: My message is that you need to keep your eye on the ball of what life is really about and make sure that you always include in your daily exercises dimensions of life that have fundamental inherent meaning. Now, it happens to be that there are certain professions that are inherently valuable. If I’m a physician that’s helping ill people, or I’m a pro bono lawyer or a legal aid lawyer who’s helping the impoverished. What I’m doing on a daily basis is inherently a holy thing.

What I did for my career, I don’t know that it was all that inherently holy. I was making sure that one billionaire got the money rather than another billionaire. What was holy of what I was doing was, number one, I was supporting my family. And we believe that’s a holy endeavor. And when I look at my job as having that piousness because I’m doing good in taking care of my family, it changes my identity as a professional.

And even more so, if I’m able to use my occupation and the professional status I’m able to generate as a means to help the broader community, then for sure it’s an enormously religious experience. So I don’t think the goal is to tell people, don’t be invested in your career. I think being invested in your career is fundamental. But for what purpose? And keeping your eye on the ball of why you’re doing what you’re doing and what you could do with it. And I think that could create a very healthy identity, even within the context of your professional identity.

ELI LANGER: So examples, for somebody who may be in a position where they don’t have to work 8 hours a day anymore, 12 hours a day, you would recommend them getting involved in additional projects, communal work, things of that nature, or spend a good chunk of your time working on yourself. Right. How do you know where to skate next, assuming you have the hours open?

MOISHE BANE: Well, obviously the question is not going to be absolute. It’s not a binary choice.

ELI LANGER: Yes or no questions, multiple choice.

Balancing Self-Development and Community Impact

MOISHE BANE: It’s always a matter of balancing, right? Throughout our life, we have to balance between our role in impacting society and impacting our community and our role in self-development. They go together, but they are distinct and they’re distinct focuses. And that’s true whether you have excess time or not. Those are both roles you have to play.

I think a lot of it has to do with where you see your greater impact could be. I mean, the entirety of a community is elevated by your degree of personal piety. By working on yourself and elevating your status spiritually, you’re helping everybody. Right? The rising tide helps everybody.

Having said that, there are people who have opportunities to impact the community in other ways. And failing to adopt those responsibilities is a forfeiture of responsibility that they’re going to be held accountable for. I think the more successful people are professionally and financially, the greater the burden that they have to assume in taking care of others and taking care of the community, not only financially, and financially is certainly fundamental, very important, but it’s also the influence that they’re able to exude by virtue of their success.

I could tell you an incredible story. My rabbi, my primary Rebbe in life was Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg Zatzal, who was the head of the yeshiva in Baltimore after I left. While I was there, he was one of the rabbeim. His father-in-law, Rabbi Ruderman Zavzal, was Rosh Yeshiva. And we were very, very close.

And there was a point in time where I challenged him. There’s a concept in rabbinic literature that even a wealthy person should give as much charity as he can, but not more than 20%. Not more than 20% of his income should be given away. I said to Rabbi Weinberg, is that moral? If, let’s say, a person is making a lot of money and he could afford to give it more than 20% and it would help people, why would the rabbi say not to give it away?

So first he slapped me and said, what do you mean moral? Our rabbis tell us what morality is. We have to derive from rabbinic teachings what morality is not. Say, they’re being immoral, which I adopt and I accept.

But then he taught me, which is even more profound, was that my question, he said, was based on a misunderstanding of why God gives someone wealth. Says your question is premised that when God gives someone wealth, the challenge is how they’re going to spend that money. Are they going to spend it on purposeful, legitimate purposes, or are they going to be wasteful and be indulgent? And therefore your question is, if they could take money and spend it in a more productive way, they should be doing that.

He says, and you’re right, that is a challenge of wealth. But it’s not the only challenge of wealth. There’s a second challenge. And the second challenge is when God gives someone wealth, they’re giving them the potential to be influential. And what the rabbis are saying is, you have no right to give away all your wealth because you need to use that wealth to be influential. Forfeiting that influence is forfeiting your challenge and your responsibility.

Now, whether it should be 20% or not. And there’s rabbis who say, well, if you’re incredibly wealthy, you should be giving more. But the principle of it, that when God gifts you affluence, he’s gifting you an opportunity that you can’t squander. And that’s to play a role in the community, play a role as a model of how you should behave and how you should be honest and how you should be able to help other people and set the model of being concerned for others. And if the leadership of the community, who is viewed with respect because of their success, doesn’t perform those tasks, the entire community is going to lose out, not only the direct beneficiaries of their largess.

ELI LANGER: Do you see younger people, 20s, 30s, growing families, stepping up in communal work these days?

Investing in People, Not Just Products

MOISHE BANE: It’s interesting. If you would have asked me that question 20 years ago, I would have said no. Over the last five, 10 years, I’ve seen an enormous resurgence in young people stepping up, looking for opportunities to play a role. And it’s incredibly impressive. I think it’s a very strong endorsement of our families and our school systems, our yeshiva systems that are teaching our youngsters, our young men and women, that they have responsibility and they’re stepping up all over the place in very, very impressive ways.

ELI LANGER: Let’s switch gears for a minute. Talk about business. You’ve invested in business throughout the years. What do you see in a business that you can deem it a worthwhile investment? Can you foresee potential success?

MOISHE BANE: Well, I think you have to distinguish between investing in established businesses and investing in startup companies, right? I’ve invested over the years in both. The more exciting with startup businesses, that’s where that’s much more fun. And frankly, that’s why I did it, because it’s more fun. But when you invest in a startup company, what we tend to do is get very caught up in the product that is being created.

What I have discovered, and it’s not my discovery, it’s, I think, a widely appreciated acknowledgment by people in that arena. Is that far more influential on the success of a startup company than its product is the quality of its management and leadership. You don’t invest in products, you invest in people. And when you meet people who are thoughtful and diligent and hardworking and objective, those are people that you want to invest with. And that’s what you’re going to see.

ELI LANGER: Success.

MOISHE BANE: It may not succeed, but the chances are much, much greater.

Evaluating Investment Success

ELI LANGER: When you mention the co-founders before you compared families income to revenue and expenses. Now I’m thinking it’s probably similar to families like who do you want to be meshadech with with parents who are co-founders of, you know, a family where they instill values and have the right mindset versus you know, however much money they make or you know there there are parallels between the two. So when you look back right on investments, how do you determine if it was a success? Is it only money is it relationships. A lot of people, especially in the beginning of, you know, their income, their money making, they feel that they want to take a job, a salary with the highest numbers, right. But for some people, an unpaid internship can be the way to go because of the relationships they’ve built along the way. Do you look at investing in a similar light or really investments all about the numbers and the return?

MOISHE BANE: Well, number one is I think that you can’t reassess your original investment decision exclusively based on its outcome. I think you need to learn. And that’s true with regard to investing. It’s true frankly with regard to all life decisions to begin to appreciate that of course you want to make the right decisions. But the right decision may not necessarily prove out in its outcome because there’s so many other factors that come into play.

You could make a rather reckless investment that turns out to be incredibly profitable because of factors that you didn’t even have familiarity with. And you could make very responsible, intelligent decisions. And because of new technology that you had no way of anticipating or failures that occur totally out of the radar screen will result. Doesn’t mean your original decision wasn’t a correct decision.

I think though, when you talk about a job being very important in terms of where it’s going to take you to the next step investing, it depends on whether you’re trying to develop relationship with your co-investors or the people who are bringing a deal to you. Very often if you’re looking to get into a system or a group of investors, you’ll just invest in the first one or two deals just to be part of the group that’s investing. Because you know, overall they have a successful track record and if you turn down the first or second opportunity, they won’t come back to you. That’s legitimate, that’s a loss leader. And you have to look at it as a loss leader and make that part of your calculation. But whether it turns out that way or not, you can’t ever evaluate your original decision exclusively based on its outcome.

Career Guidance and Self-Knowledge

ELI LANGER: Interesting. If someone came over to you for, and I’m sure it happens. Business related advice. What industry should I get into? What are you seeing out there? You know, if you were 22 years old, where would you take your career?

MOISHE BANE: I don’t know. I don’t know that I’m qualified to answer that. Let me tell you what I would say, what I’ve discovered and you’re right that young people, and even not so young people have come to me over the years, repeatedly, constantly. And what I discovered many years ago is that they’re coming to me for advice, presuming that I have familiarity with the marketplace or familiarity with the particular industry that they may not have making their decision, and that’s what they feel that they need to have that information to make that decision.

And what I discovered is that the positive information that most young people have that is an obstacle to making the right decision is not the kind of information they’re looking for from me. The positive information they have is their lack of familiarity with themselves. It’s an interesting thing that young people are trained with all kinds of skills and all kinds of information and we teach them courses and we give them degrees, but we do very little in training them to know who they are and who they are and what they are and what their character is, what their skill sets are, what their strengths and weaknesses are.

And that’s the information that I really would like to know. If you want me to tell you what I think you should be doing and you can’t because you don’t know the answer to that very often I’ll tell, I’ll meet a 22, 25 year old and they’ll be talking about career. And I said, how are your sales skills? I don’t know. I never. You don’t know. That’s the number one issue that you need to figure out to determine what field to go into. You have skill, how. What’s your stress level, tolerance? I don’t know. How are you supposed to decide what field to go into? Young people need to learn themselves and then they can decide among the alternatives what fits for them. And we don’t train them to do that.

ELI LANGER: You’ve seen people in careers for decades that may not have been the best fit for them.

MOISHE BANE: Oh, most people, I mean, when you, when you look at people who are superstar successes, there are so many circumstances that go into so many factors that go into that. But one of the most important is it turns out they’ve happened to go into a field that fits who they are, very often just by coincidence. But if it was done deliberately, the chances of success skyrocket. And we don’t do that.

Career Changes and Good Debt

ELI LANGER: So what’s your message for someone who’s 41 years old, they have some income, but this career is not the right fit for them. But moving to another job or taking training somewhere else means guaranteed the next six months, they’re below water.

MOISHE BANE: Well, I think it’s true with regard to. Everybody knows that you may have to incur debt and Although debt is viewed as a very reluctant thing to do. There’s in the vernacular two types of debt, right? There’s good debt and bad debt. And bad debt is debt that you incur that is not being productive. Good debt is when I’m creating more value by taking the debt than the obligation that I’m incurring.

And if by virtue of going into a training program to send me on a trajectory that’s going to ultimately realize much greater profit than our earnings that I’m making today, that’s legitimate good debt to incur. And you may be underwater for six months and. But it may be very justifiable from a purely financial objective perspective to incur that debt. But you have to make an intelligent decision in that regard. But if it’s a responsible decision, I would encourage them to do that. Otherwise you get into a rut that you’re going to spend.

Keep in mind, when you’re 40 years old today, you’re looking at a good 40 to 50 years going forward. It’s not like, okay, Baruch Hashem, thank God people live long today. Life’s now. It’s not a guarantee that that’s going to happen. But you have a legitimate, justifiable perspective to say, I’m going to live till I’m 80, 90 years old, I’m 40 years old, I have a long time ahead of me. I’m going to say, well, you know, it’s too late, not anymore.

Retirement Planning

ELI LANGER: Do you think today’s generation appreciates what it means to invest for retirement?

MOISHE BANE: When you say appreciate, do they even realize it’s part of their responsibility? I don’t think so. I think that that goes back to whether parents are training their children to worry about retirement. I also don’t know that everybody even thinks they will ever retire.

I mean, when we lived in a economy that the vast majority of people were employees, whether they were government employees or working for large corporations, where retirement was an inevitability and part of the financial plan was okay, retirement, either through the company’s pension plan or company’s 401, okay, that was on the table. Today, more and more people are becoming entrepreneurs, are going into their own, starting their own businesses. I’m going to work till I drop dead. What retirement are you talking about?

But there are still many people who are in the ordinary course employment trajectory. Very often they create a lifestyle that doesn’t even afford them the opportunity to think about putting away money for retirement. I was just talking to a group last week illustrating to them even if you don’t have an employer who has a 401k plan, you have a IRA plan that you’re able to put in yourself. Today’s the cap is $7,000 a person. So between a couple, it’s $14,000.

If at the age of 25, for the next 40 years, you’d be putting away that $14,000, and let’s say you would project a 5 to 7% return for $14,000 a year, you’ll be retiring a millionaire. Young people aren’t even given that illustration to appreciate. And certainly they’re not taught the idea of compounding interest to compounding investment realization, which is one of the most remarkable things in the world. The only time they realize there’s such a thing as compounding is when they look at their credit card bill and they see the compounding interest, but not on the upside, which is invaluable.

ELI LANGER: Do you recommend credit cards to your kids and grandkids?

# The Jewish Parent’s Guide to Money, Work and Family

Credit Card Debt and Financial Responsibility

MOISHE BANE: No, I don’t. I think it’s a poison that could catch up on you and destroy you. You know, on the occasions where I did meet people who came to me for advice who were in financial crisis, I was a restructuring lawyer. That’s what I did. I never dealt with people. I never dealt with individual bankruptcies. They couldn’t afford my rates. Right. That wasn’t the kind of work I did.

But very often people would come to me, “Oh, you’re a bankruptcy lawyer. This is my finance.” And say, “How did you get into this position?” And they would describe what they were spending money on and incurring debt to do that. And it was incredibly irresponsible.

I think that people should spend the money that they have and use your debt card, debit card, not their credit card. I think it’s a much more responsible way to live. Now, having said that, I use my credit card for points, but I pay it every month. But if you can’t pay at the end of the month, you shouldn’t be spending your money.

ELI LANGER: So you’re a teacher these days. You go to YU once a week. What do you teach?

Designing Your Jewish Life Course

MOISHE BANE: I teach a fascinating course. It’s in the Sy Syms Business School of Yeshiva University. It’s called “Designing your Jewish Life.” The current dean who’s actually leaving at the end of the year, his name is Noam Wasserman. When he became dean of Sy Syms at YU University, he created a curriculum within the broader curriculum called Jewish Values, based on the thesis that if we’re creating Orthodox young men and women who are going to go into the business world, there are fundamentals of Judaism that they need to prepare.

So for example, there are mandatory courses in halacha to know Jewish law in the business world, to know Jewish law in the broader life if you want to go into the commercial world. And then there are a variety of other courses that are part of the curriculum, that are electives, and I’m one of those electives.

Designing a Jewish Life is intended to provide an introduction to the kinds of decisions that you’re going to be making through your adult life. And not telling you how to make those decisions. And I repeat almost before every new topic, I’m not telling you at all what’s right for you. My job is to give you factors that many adults fail to consider when they’re making these decisions that should be part of your arsenal when you’re considering what the right decision should be.

This ranges from how do you choose a profession, how do you choose whether you should pursue wealth or just look to make enough money to make it. What is the value of wealth? What is the importance of avoiding poverty? And is that a Jewish value? Which it is. The importance of self-sufficiency as a Jewish value.

We talk about how do you choose where to live? How do you choose how to be a proper father, a proper husband or wife? I mean, these are topics that have factors that very often people don’t have on their radar screen. And my job is to put it on their radar screen, not to direct them how they should take those factors, but at least make it part of their decision-making process.

In fact, it’s a 14-week course. Two of the weeks are simply how do you make decisions? What’s the decision process? And starting to illustrate to them that there are different categories of decisions. Sometimes you’re making a decision that you’re the only one impacted. But think about how many decisions there are where other people are impacted. Are you considering that impact, whether it be on your family, whether it be on setting a model for society? Is that part of your calculation when you decide how to live?

Or are there decisions you’re making that are purely a fiduciary role you’re playing? When a young person grows up and turns out to be the president of a synagogue or his day school and he makes decisions, are you making a decision for what’s good for you or you’re now a fiduciary, you have responsibility to the community that you’re representing.

To alert people that there are different types of decisions and then what roles should be played by your rabbi? What roles should be played by your parents? When is there ever, if ever, a decision that your spouse is not a partner in? And maybe the answer is never. And therefore you need to include your spouse in making decisions. Those are the kinds of things that we talk about.

Teaching Life Skills to Young Adults

ELI LANGER: I want to take the class. You have a few hours in between the classes where the boys speak to you. What’s on their mind, what’s on the mind of a 20-year-old boy as it relates to some of these topics that you’re discussing? Are they blown away because they’ve never even thought that these were questions?

MOISHE BANE: I don’t know if they’re blown away or not. I hope not. I hope they think this is the ordinary course. But I will tell you that when I start my class in the introductory class the first day of the semester, and I give them a 15-minute introduction, including the fact that I’m not telling you what to do, et cetera, et cetera, but one of the points I tell them is everything I’m teaching you in this class, your father should have taught you, but he didn’t because that’s not what we train our parents to do. I’m hoping by teaching you this class, you will teach your children everything we talk about in this classroom.

ELI LANGER: Do you think this is discussed enough in the Yeshiva-based communities? Right. Someone who goes through Yeshiva into beis medrash. This was not a curriculum that I took. And yes, we do learn a lot from our sefarim or whatnot, but this is very narrowly focused on decision making and things that are very practical to today. Would you like to see these conversations, these courses given in those communities as well?

Parenting Responsibilities

MOISHE BANE: I’d like to see these courses be given to parents. So parents will be teaching their children. Just as in Yeshiva University, it shouldn’t have to be taught in school. I don’t think in the Yeshivas it should be taught in Yeshivas. I think what you’re identifying is when I talk about parenting, the number one issue that I have with parenting today, which is that we contract out parenting. And that’s true in the Yeshiva community and the centrist community across the board.

We look at our schools, our synagogues, our rabbis, our youth groups to be the parents of our children. No, we’re supposed to be the parents of our children. All of these community organs are tools in our arsenal to help us parent. But it’s our job to parent our children.

I remember when I was young and we’d have families over for a Shabbos meal. And people would say around the table, “Children don’t know how to daven. They don’t know how to pray today. What are they teaching them in school?” I go “School? That’s where they should be teaching them? Shouldn’t you be teaching them?”

Or, “Children today have no midos. They have no personality traits. They’re not polite. What are they teaching them in school?” School? That’s where they should be teaching them? That’s where they should be teaching them a love for Judaism? That’s where they should be teaching them that God loves them? No, that’s your job as a parent. We expect schools to do that.

So when you ask, should the Yeshiva community be teaching this to their children? Of course they should. Parents should be teaching this to their children.

ELI LANGER: Well said. If someone has a follow-up question, comment, criticism.

MOISHE BANE: I’ll take criticism, questions. I don’t know that I’m qualified for. What’s the best way to MoisheBane@gmail.com.

ELI LANGER: How do you spell that?

MOISHE BANE: M-O-I-S-H-E-B-A-N-E.

ELI LANGER: So I’ll put it in the show notes. Any closing remarks? Did we not cover anything? Is there a book recommendation? Any final thoughts?

MOISHE BANE: No, I think you’ve covered a lot of ground and all the topics are really beyond what I’m really qualified to address. I’m just sharing with you what I’ve come across.

ELI LANGER: You did a great job. And we’ll also link to Yaakov’s interview with you, hear more about your life story. We’ll share there whether or not he’s an actual rabbi, but he is. And Rabbi Bane, Esquire, we cannot thank you enough.

MOISHE BANE: My pleasure.

Closing Announcements

ELI LANGER: Thank you for listening to a spectacular episode of Kosher Money. I have a few items on the agenda. We have a giveaway, three winners to announce. We have a newsletter sign up, premium YouTube membership. I have a money tip for you at the end of this and so much more.

So first, the giveaway. If you’d like to be entered for the chance to win a $100 Amazon gift card, please include one of the following two words in your YouTube comment, either “family” or “work.” Use those words, family or work, however you’d like and we’ll announce the next winner in the next Kosher Money episode.

If you’re listening to this on Spotify, by the way, or Apple Podcasts, pop over to YouTube, leave a comment there. Just like, subscribe, do everything you can. And you can leave a comment on Spotify. My brother Yaakov tells me, “Yaakov, this is not your podcast, it’s mine. Work with me, not against me.”

Congrats to three winners of the free Dave Ramsey book: Paul Runs Slow, d’Antoni Torresi and Tara K. Glam. If you’re them, message us on livinglachaim.com and we’ll get those Dave Ramsey books sent out to you.

Thank you to the sponsors of this week’s episode. We got Bit Beam right custom software solutions. We have the Donors Fund, an amazing charity giving platform. We have Twillery, super comfortable and durable men’s clothing. And we have Friends of Kolel Chabad who are supporting Israel with much needed food and resources. Check them all out by clicking on the show notes and supporting our sponsors.

If you’re thinking about your finances, you need help budgeting, tackling debt or just want to chat with a financial advisor, the OU’s livingsmarterjewish.org website offers free resources and has already assisted thousands of people in navigating their financial journeys.

MOISHE BANE: Don’t be shy.

ELI LANGER: Reach out to them at info@livingsmarterjewish.org and schedule. They might have a waiting list. It’s free. It’s awesome. It’s worth the wait.

You want a money tip? I got you. Here’s something I recently heard from the Holy Rabbi Moshe David Valley: “A clear sign to discern whether wealth comes from the side of good or the side of evil is that wealth that comes from the side of good does not bring sorrow with it, but wealth that comes from the side of evil, sorrow is embedded in its owner’s heart and you will not rejoice from the riches. All the days are spent in a state of mental anguish as if he was poor and destitute, longing for everything.” This is from Rabbi Moshe David Valley, a Talmud and friend of the Ramchal.

Love the Kosher Money Podcast. I told you do all the stars, the ratings. It really helps us. The biggest thing you probably could do is sharing this on your status or with a friend or with your grandmother. All ages like Kosher Money. So thank you so much for your support.

If you want even more, you can join our YouTube Premium membership. You get early access to episodes. We’re releasing other perks. I know Yaakov’s working on merch, so stay tuned for that. Already dozens of you have signed up. Link for the premium membership is in the Show Notes. We also have a newsletter, so if you want to sign up for the newsletter, you’ll get an email from us with the latest and some secret bonuses every couple of weeks. Until next time, keep your money kosher.

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