Diary Of A CEO: with Communication Expert Jefferson Fisher (Transcript)

And so I can’t think of any other profession that is more entrenched in conflict, maybe outside of a boxer or some UFC, something that deals with actual conflict and sits there and listens to it all, than in the legal world in a trial attorney.

And so, yeah, it’s my job to advocate based on my client’s facts to get them the result that they want. The reason why I wrote that book and how that book applies is I took a lot of the lessons that I teach every one of my clients and put them in that book. Because I’m sitting there preparing them for cross examination and realizing, oh, wait, they are deathly afraid of the conflict that they’re in.

Because most of the time it’s the most emotional, stressful, overwhelm they are ever in their life. They’re in a place they’ve never been. They don’t know what it’s like. They’ve only seen it on TV. And so it’s my job to kind of take their hands and say, this is how we’re going to do it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And how does that apply to the average person in their life?

JEFFERSON FISHER: People think that the goal of any argument or any conversation is to win. And same for a trial. They say, you want to win a trial? I’ve seen it so many times where I’ve gotten the result that they want and they realized they still have the problem. They still wanted the apology. It all would have been resolved. There’d be no case if somebody had just said “I’m sorry.”

And so you find that for the everyday person, it’s my job now and passion to be able to help them get into conflict and say, “I feel controlled in this. I feel confident in this. Now I know exactly where I’m going in this because I’ve been there before.” And it is not a skill that comes naturally. It is a skill that is learned.

The Life-Changing Impact of Communication Mastery

STEVEN BARTLETT: And what do you think is the sort of variance and outcome? How would my life change if I became an absolute master in this? You know, if I started from zero in this regard and then I became a master in dealing with conflict and dealing with difficult people and dealing with people that gaslight me and dealing with narcissists and all these kinds of things. Why would my life be different and in what domains?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s quite a lot.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: First would be you would be equipped for, outside of necessary expertise, anywhere you wanted to be in life. People feel like communication is zero cost. It costs you something. If I’m not speaking up in that relationship, it costs my own sense of worth. If I don’t say what needs to be said at work, well, I might have lost that promotion, everything. The bill always comes due.

If you can think of every time you didn’t say the thing as like a receipt at a restaurant. Every time it’s a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose to either say something or not say something at the right time. And when you realize that if I can speak with confidence, well, that’s me gaining a little bit more. If I can say things with control, that’s me gaining just a little bit more.

A second benefit of it is that you realize being right is overrated. If you tell me the sky is purple, knock yourself out, Steven. It doesn’t have to touch anything with me on who I am or any of my opinions. We’re opinion-making machines. I feel like that’s all on social media. It’s to be set up to give your opinion on things that most of the time will rarely ever touch you.

And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing I don’t need to agree with you to understand you. If you have an opinion, I don’t have to give one back. If you say something, I can choose not to say anything at all. And for a lot of people that kind of blows their mind of, “You mean I don’t have to respond?” No, you don’t have to say anything.

If somebody’s talking really fast, you can talk really slow. They forget that you have full autonomy in it. And when you realize that it’s you who’s taking the wheel, you take the wheel of your life.

The Question of Justice

STEVEN BARTLETT: But what about justice, Jefferson?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you know justice? Like, this person has wronged me. They’ve said something wrong. I don’t know, they tweeted at me, something which is incorrect. I need to correct the record. Justice. I think we all have a sort of an innate sense of justice. We want things to be fair and right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes. Justice is an inherent value that is high priority for a lot of people. For good reason. You might say, “Well, they’ve wronged me. This isn’t right.” That’s all well and good. The question is going to be, how long do you want to carry it? How long do you want to carry that feeling?

Because I can either choose to let it go, I can choose to say the thing. It’s not at all my position that you should be stepping on eggshells and not say the thing and be a wallflower. No, it’s the opposite. I’m saying you say what you need to say in a way that is controlled, in a way that is signaling, “I’m saying this because it needs to be said, but not because I have to say it.”

There’s a lot of people who feel like, “Well, something needs to be said,” but maybe you’re not the one to say it. Maybe you’re the one that needs to. Maybe doesn’t need to be said right now. Because if they’re not willing to listen, well, then what good does it ever do?

What I like to say is for you to learn how to stand up for yourself, you first have to learn who’s worth getting out of your chair for. I’m not going to be making big moves for something that is not at all worth my time.

So, yeah, justice is absolutely worth it. But when you go to, “I’m the one that has to be carrying this,” a lot of the times people do things to you and it’s nothing to them, but yet it’s everything to you. And now you’re just walking around for 20 years with a comment that you could have said something way long ago and decided to drop it, but you chose to carry it. And now you’re the only one that has the weight of that.

Dealing with Power Dynamics

STEVEN BARTLETT: If I’m dealing with someone who’s in a position of power, someone who’s a, I don’t know, senior to me at my company, or even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in the sort of social pecking order, and they’re continually putting me down or being difficult, or even a partner that I’m romantically involved in. What are the hallmarks of someone who has control over their communication? And what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn’t? What is it that makes—because when you speak, it’s very—feels very composed and controlled. What are you intentionally doing to achieve that effect?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m wanting you to match my rhythm. I’m wanting you to come to my frequency. People get it wrong when they go big time to an 11, big emotional reaction. If I have a big emotional outburst, am I signaling that I’m somebody who’s trustworthy, reliable and confident? Or am I signaling that I am out of my depth, I don’t know what I want, and I am not to be believed? Right?

Because when you have an emotional outburst, everybody thinks, “You’re just being emotional,” and they don’t—all of a sudden you’re not credited for the truth of what you’re saying. So sometimes emotions can get in the way of what needs to be said because of how you’re delivering it.

So when I say I’m going to talk to you in a way that’s going to sound more controlled, I’m slowing down my words. I’m lowering my volume. Why? Because I want to pull you down here. And if I can pull you down here, well, then we can talk about a lot harder things rather than feeling like I have to rush.

So if you want to talk to somebody in your relationship or somebody that’s kind of higher up on the pecking order, so to speak, when you can show them that change doesn’t bother you, when you can show them that you don’t have to rush through this situation, people feel that you are giving them a sense of comfort.

In other words, in conversation, everybody is looking for an anchor. When you go to a meeting, we listen to the person who’s the anchor. They’re usually the person who says a lot less, the person who’s observing and listening rather than always giving their opinion about what you should be doing. Those are the people you don’t listen to.

As soon as you—if you’ve ever heard somebody say, “You know what I think you should do,” does that ever make you want to do what they said? No, it’s because they’ve made it their idea. Now they’re telling you what to do. If I were to say to you, “You can’t do that,” what’s the first thing you think of? “Yes, I can.” You know, it’s the same kind of concept where it’s me lowering to be the anchor in the conversation.

Courtroom Presence and Body Language

STEVEN BARTLETT: And when you’re in a case in front of a judge, is there anything else that you’re intentionally thinking about with, I don’t know, your body language or the eye contact or any of these other things that you’ve learned over time are really important to get your message heard?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m speaking like I’ve been there before.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Explain that to me.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Walk into a room like you’ve been there before, as if everybody else is just visiting. So what I do before every trial is I will go in there before the jury comes in, the judge comes in, everybody comes in, and I say to myself, “This is my living room, and everybody else is just visiting.”

And so I will touch the chairs, I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will fill that space and feel it in a way of saying, “I have been here before.” And when I can exude that kind of confidence that every juror that watches, all of a sudden, it calms them down. They go, “Who can I rely on here? Who’s more trustworthy? Who’s more credible?”

Because that’s what it is when you’re persuading, when you are advocating your case, it’s who ultimately it comes down to who is more credible. And so when I can not get emotionally flustered, like I’ve seen it so many times, where a judge rules against me, and I act as though that’s exactly what I wanted, you know, I’m acting as though, “Thank you, judge.”

And the jury’s never going to know really any different. But I’ve seen on other attorneys where the judge rules against them and they go, or they roll their eyes or they act frustrated. And what does the juror think? “Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information. This must have been bad for their case.”

So if you are always reacting to situations in which you have to be emotional with, in a sense that you’re not paying attention to who’s watching you.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Okay, on that point.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So when you say rules against you, you mean during the trial there’s something you request?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly.

STEVEN BARTLETT: The judge might say no, and you say, “Thank you, judge.” You act as if you’re not defeated.

The Power of Composure in the Courtroom

JEFFERSON FISHER: You act as though that’s exactly what you expected. Right. It’s the whole idea of that’s not going to shake me. So a lot of the times you’ll see in real court, not TV, the judge will say, “Counsel, can you approach?” And both attorneys come up and they play some kind of noise cancellation to where only the attorneys can hear the judge.

And the judge is making a decision at that time that we don’t want to let the jury know. Why? Because it’s information that might sway the case in some way and not be as objective. And you have to pay attention to how the attorneys are walking away after that meeting’s done.

If somebody looks defeated, it just signals, oh, this is information that they must not want or they’re objecting. I’ve seen so many cases where there’s one attorney who objects to everything. It’s my rule if I really want to have one objection the whole trial. Because to the jury, an objection is me keeping evidence out.

So if you always object, always object, always object, you’re just signaling there’s information I don’t want you to hear. But if I have the confidence of knowing there’s really one objection, I know that’s going to be material to my case. That way they know I’ve been there before. This is not something that’s going to be making or breaking my case. It’s all of credibility. If they don’t trust me, they’re not going to trust my client or my client’s case.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think also it illuminates to me how much of a communication is non-verbal, because in that example, you’re just talking about how they’re watching your body language and how you’ve received something.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And if you were defensive with all those objections or if you were defeated in the judge’s ruling, that would work against you, even though really nothing was said. Like nothing significant was said.

The Art of Being “In the Pocket”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, it’s a balance of knowing, am I going to choose to react because of personal ego if I didn’t get my way, or am I having the better mindset of I’m advocating on behalf of my client.

Like I’ve been, let’s say you’re a witness and you’re opposed to me and I’m asking you a question and I think you said something that’s contrary to the evidence that I have right here. Rather than me getting messed up saying, “Are you sure about that, Mr. Bartlett? Let me go…” I get really worked up versus me putting… You said something, and I put my hand on the paper. I said, “You sure?”

Like, all of a sudden, it’s a moment of… it kind of piques their interest of, like, what’s happening. Oh, this attorney knows. This attorney is somebody who’s confident and has this, what I call “in the pocket” presence. I’m not trying to be too forward. I’m not trying to be too back. I’m just in the pocket like a jazz band. Like, everybody is on. Everybody’s on beat. And so I’m not rushing. I’m not slowing down. I’m just right in the pocket.

STEVEN BARTLETT: In the pocket. Is that what people call aura, swagger?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Maybe some people call it, yeah. Aura. You could have it for anything in any context. I like to say “in the pocket” because it just reminds me of the right timing, is my timing, and that is I’m going to match how I need to be of what’s most authentic, what’s most genuine to me.

If you were to ask me to read something really fast, it wouldn’t sound that great, because that’s not my personality. And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold, and I’m saying, everybody here is just visiting. This is… I’ve been here before. Y’all don’t know where to go. Let me show you.

And I have that kind of mentality. People will listen to you forever. They’ll find that attractive. Saying, how does this person know where they’re going? I can follow them. It’s just natural leadership to speak in a way that says, I know where I’m going. I’ve been here before.

The Importance of Preparation

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think that’s probably good advice for people who have important meetings or are going on dates.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: To maybe get there ahead of time and familiarize yourself with the location.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Just so you don’t have the added anxiety of, like, stumbling through the physical environment, like, looking for the thing or trying to find the toilet or, I don’t know, trying to figure out how to make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop onto the screen and all those kinds of things which we’ve all seen before.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Anytime I go to speak, I spoke this past week in Santa Barbara. I went ahead of time, before my speaking time to go. I want to see what the room looks like. I want to see how can I touch and say hi to the people that are working AV. How can I meet them? How can I?

If you really want to be better as a professional speaker, talk to people in the crowd before you speak. Get to know people’s names. It’s going to naturally lower you. Get to know their names, ask them why they’re here, say, “I’m so thankful that you’re here. I’m really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today.”

When you can go in and touch people, it’s a different sense than if I’m going into a room totally cold because you don’t really have the vibe. You don’t really know how that is. So yeah, going to a restaurant ahead of time, that’s great. Not bringing your phone, even better. You know, getting able to be a sense of knowing I’ve been here before. I want to welcome you to my space.

Understanding Aura

STEVEN BARTLETT: When we talk about people that have aura, you must have met a lot of people in your career and your life generally that you felt had a sense of aura.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What was it about them that gave them that aura? What is it?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s a frequency of peace for me. I think of people and you think of people in your life who you have felt most comfortable with. The person you feel like I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down.

For me, it was my grandparents’ house. As soon as I walk in, it’s a different feeling of time kind of stands still. They want to know about me, they want to know how am I doing. It’s that feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura and they just have a glow about them. It’s usually of… they’re not trying to prove anything to anybody. They just naturally exude that kind of charisma because of the security of knowing who they are and what they can do.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I guess what’s the opposite of that then? Sometimes it’s easier to understand something by understanding the opposite. What would that look like?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I would say that authentic people, authentic aura, as you said, doesn’t come from people securing themselves to you. That’s for insecure people. The people who are authentic know that I am good exactly where I’m at. Oh, you want to rush? I’m really no rush. What happens today happens today. Is it really due today or could it be done tomorrow if I had to?

If it’s a slower pace, I find that there is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on these kind of things. And I’m from Texas, in the south. So it’s kind of this knowing that the right time will come when that time is right and not having to push that.

So if you want to look at the opposite, it’s the… the opposite of aura is insecure. It’s name dropping. It’s having to be friends immediately. It’s having to prove to you how much money I have or what. It’s everything else being everything to everybody else except myself.

People who have a sense of style, their own sense of style, naturally have an aura. Why? Because they don’t care what in the world anybody else is wearing. This is what I like. My daughter, all right? She’s six. We tried setting out clothes. Forget it. She can come down in a leopard print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she wants. And you know what? She thinks she’s the flyest thing in the world. I mean, that’s… I never want to take that out of her.

The people who have a sense of fashion, a sense of who I am, and they have to look cool to anybody. Social standard, but it’s… do they really care what anybody else thinks? Usually the people with aura do not.

Dealing with Gaslighting

STEVEN BARTLETT: And sometimes when you come up against… I mean, we were talking before we started recording about, since this book’s publication, what have been people saying to you and what have the chapters… what are the chapters that stood out the most to people? And you mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with difficult conversations, dealing with difficult people. And one of the phrases that’s been arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase gaslighting.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposely lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity. Do people talk to you about gaslighting a lot?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Now that you’ve written this book, yes. And what do you think gaslighting is? It’s one of those things that’s been used so often that we almost have to, like, pause for a second just to define it again.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes. Let me put it this way. The difference between gaslighting and lying. Lying is a surface level of… I could tell you, instead of having a silver cup, this is a red cup. Well, that would be a lie.

Gaslighting is… I’m trying to alter your reality into mine. I’m trying to make you question how other people perceive you, including myself, how you perceive yourself. If anybody’s ever questioned, “Am I crazy? Am I the crazy one? Is it me? Is it everybody?” Most likely you’re probably being gaslit.

And here’s the truth. I have been the gaslighter. Everybody has been the gaslighter, whether they intentionally know it or not. Because it’s all that feeling of preservation, of defensiveness, of, I don’t want people to know the truth of what’s happening in my life, so I’m going to mislead and gaslighting. The intent is to alter your reality to make you question what is real and what is not.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So I might do something wrong, and then I might come home and know that I’ve done something wrong and intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality that makes them fundamentally question what they know to try and spare me the critique or to control them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes, to protect yourself. It’s self-preservation. Say, let’s say you and your partner had come home from a dinner, all right, and you’re just in a very critical mood, and maybe you’re trying to distract from something else that’s going on in your life, and you’re being critical of a story that she shared at dinner.

And you’re like, “Why did you… why would you ever say that?” And she goes, “Everything was fine.” You’re like, “Fine. No, it was not. Did you not see how they reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know you don’t want to hear this, but everybody feels that, you know, you’re a little bit much, and I’m the one that needs to tell you this.”

You see how you’re all of a sudden starting to alter how she feels in that moment. And I’ve seen the other side of that, and it is not at all something that you can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to find a way to say, okay, how are we really walking in truth? Because you get so far away from radical honesty in conversation.

So gaslighting is not something to be taken lightly. But I will say people often apply to the wrong thing. They’ll use it as a sense of saying, you’re saying something I don’t like. So you’re gaslighting me. We’re in an argument, and you’re pointing out something that hurt your feelings. “Oh, that’s gaslighting.” And they use it as an excuse.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s almost a form of gaslighting.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. That’s exactly right. In a weird way, it can reverse that way. But imagine me saying something hurtful to you and you go, “That really hurt my feelings.” I go, “That’s just my boundary. Let’s just have a boundary about everything.” Or “This is… you’re just gaslighting me.”

I’ve never met somebody who talked about their ex without saying “my narcissistic ex.” “I finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship.” It’s never us, right? It’s always the other. It’s always the other person. And so there’s these words that we can kind of pepper insult in the sentences that are also still another form if we look at it, a form of self-preservation. Look at all their bad and don’t look at mine.

Understanding Gaslighting and Its Impact

STEVEN BARTLETT: Why is it important that we don’t gaslight others? And I ask this question because everybody listening now is probably going to want the answer to the question, which is, what do I do about a gaslighter? But again, this is avoiding the responsibility that we all have a tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else. And, you know, I don’t think my audience is just the gaslighted.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Exactly. Statistically, clearly you’re also all the gaslighters. So how do—why is it important that we don’t gaslight other people? And is there a way for us to avoid, you know, getting into a situation where our back’s against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s important not to gaslight somebody because every time you do, you’re removing yourself further and further from the truth—the truth of how you feel, the truth of your relationship. You are withholding reality from that other person rather than having radical honesty about what’s happening. So it degrades the relationship. It degrades another person’s self-worth. And in many ways, gaslighting steals their reality. It’s not something you can give back without a lot of work. It’s taking in some sense.

Now, it can be absolutely intentional and it can also be unintentional as a form of self-preservation. And if you feel like you are being gaslit, the secret to knowing is slowing down the conversation. If I am staying still in the conversation, meaning you could say something to me that’s a form of gaslighting, making me question, did I? Oh my goodness, did I really say that? Did I really hurt their feelings? Did I? And get into my head and I start kind of jumping around and trying to change what I did.

But if I were to say, “Steven, I remember that differently,” and that’s where I stop. Then you can try other things and I’m going to repeat, “Yeah, I remember that differently.” It’s standing in the truth of what you know, rather than being concerned and misled by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around.

The Difference Between Perception and Gaslighting

STEVEN BARTLETT: And if I am—if I think about—I think it’s thinking about all the times where I think I might have gaslit someone. You know, in relationships, backs against the wall and you’re having an argument with someone or—it’s quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word, like just saying something that isn’t necessarily true or is that is your perception of things versus gaslighting. Is the difference in your mind intention? If I give my version of reality?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: We were at that party, you said this thing. I saw the person roll their eyes and then they walked away. I think they’re really offended. I think you offended them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What’s the difference between that and me gaslighting someone?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Between lying and gaslighting?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah. I’m trying to understand in that context you gave about going to a party, someone said something and then they walk up. What’s the difference between if that’s how you saw reality and you’re communicating it versus gaslighting someone? Is it the intention?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s the intention and the tension is I’m the one in control, not you. Okay, so you are trying to control the narrative. You are trying to be both director—

STEVEN BARTLETT: Producer and actor for your own agenda.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: For your own film and for control.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m the character in my own movie. I’m the main character. And you need to behave this way. You need to believe this. You need to act upon that. And so the more I can try to manipulate that reality—and what’s so wild is it becomes so manipulated that you believe it too. Now that falsehood has now become your fact in some sense. The really good liars convince themselves that that lie is the truth.

Who Is Most Susceptible to Gaslighting?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is there a certain type of person that’s more susceptible to being gaslit or to being victimized in any way with conversation in your view?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Anxious attachment. The ones that are—people who can’t regulate by themselves. They have to co-regulate. Meaning most of the time men are—we’re good self-regulators. Just give me some time by myself. Give me an evening, give me an hour, let me walk outside and I’ll regulate myself most of the time.

It’s been my experience women are not like that. They co-regulate most of them. They need you to also make them feel good. They can’t be good if you’re not good. We’re not good. I’m not good if you’re not okay. So it’s that whole I’m not okay if you’re not okay. And so in many ways they need you to be able to calm down themselves and they don’t self-regulate as well.

And so the people who are most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation, people who are anxious attachment, meaning they need—are you okay? Are you good? Do you need anything? Are you sure you’re not okay? Versus the people who are more avoidant. And three, the people who are typically more insecure.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So do you think women get gaslit more than men?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But women still gaslight women, right?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Of course.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But just men are more—

JEFFERSON FISHER: When you’re talking relationships. When you’re talking relationships. That’s my personal opinion is because from my feedback, from the people that have read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book, yeah, it’s majority, vast majority are women. I’m not saying that’s some empirical study on it, but what I will say is women are just as capable of gaslighting and women can certainly gaslight women.

And I’m saying this with the mindset of everybody gaslights, whether they know it or not, and they have in the past, most likely they can think of a time in the past where they did without knowing it. But that would be my opinion that most of the time men are the ones that do it to women.

Gender Differences in Gaslighting Experiences

STEVEN BARTLETT: Reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report higher rates of gaslighting and coercive control than men. Men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms.

And as it relates to workplace data, surveys from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their memory doubted or their experience dismissed. Women in male-dominated fields report the highest rates of gaslighting and women of color report even higher rates of being told their perception is wrong or that they’re misinterpreting things.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Sounds like that tracks.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And also in medical settings, women are less likely to be believed about their symptoms. Women’s pain is underestimated. Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders, ADHD and autism. And the list goes on and on and on.

JEFFERSON FISHER: If I had to say who does more—you know, I’m not trying to put some kind of headline of men do it more than women. In my experience, it tends to be the guy. And you know, what does that information show me? It shows me that sounds about right.

I do think from the people that follow my content, listen to my content—because I stay very connected to my community—so many women say, “I feel like I’m in this workplace and they are doubting my competence, they’re doubting my ability to make decisions. I’m not being believed, I’m being put down.” Whether it’s not even their experience, it’s just because of their gender. And those are real. Those are real questions.

Does that mean that that’s gaslighting? Probably not all the time. But for me to say that’s a dumb complaint, you know, that’s just complaining—in many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you know what? I’ve hired thousands of people over the last decade, and I have to say, sometimes it’s difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven’t lived their experience—like you haven’t been a woman or whatever. It’s very difficult. So you kind of just have to take them for their words sometimes if you’ve not lived it yourself or you can look at data or whatever else.

And I do have to say that I have experienced male executives who were extremely dismissive of their female peers in a way that was 100% inconsistent as it relates to genders. What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit, really for no other reason than she was a woman.

And so it’s a very real thing. And it’s not every man, I have to say this, but there is a certain particular type of person who, for some reason, in my experience, would see a woman in the workplace or in the high, sort of upper echelons of the professional environment as being less than them just because of her gender. So when I hear, you know, what you’re saying about women are predominantly coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting, it does kind of track with what I’ve seen.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’ll tell you this. I’ve never had a man come to me in all this time that I’ve been, from my book to my content this number of years, ever say “I think I’m being gaslit.” It has always been the woman. Never. Never.

Dealing with Narcissists

STEVEN BARTLETT: What about the conversation around dealing with narcissists? Because this feels like it’s kind of one in the same. The words are used in the same sort of vernacular. But do you have men coming to you saying that “I think my partner’s a narcissist”?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes, you do.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, that I do have. Yeah. It’s always—it’s always they’re married to one or just got out of a relationship with one, but it’s never them.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And what do you say to someone who is dealing with a narcissist who is dealing with someone who repeatedly gaslights them? Let’s say it’s in the context of work.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What are they meant to do? Quit their job?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, that is an option, so let’s not rule that out.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: If it’s worth it to you, because that’s the question of what’s your purpose here? And this is where you’re going to be forever, then there’s some things we need to put in place. But what are you to do? You are to limit the interaction, limit the exposure, talk less, neutral statements.

So if you can—in many ways, you can just limit the amount of physicality of I don’t have to see you, I don’t have to communicate with you. I know you work three doors down, but I don’t have to be your best friend and you certainly don’t have to be mine.

Two is understanding the game that you’re in. It’s a game for narcissists of praise or provoke, meaning, if I am not showering you with praise, then the narcissist will turn to provoke in order to create an argument for the same effect. They delight in frustration just as much as they delight in your praise because they get the same type of control.

I’ve seen so many expert witnesses in my field that are what I would term are narcissists. They can never possibly be wrong. They don’t do empathy. And again, this is me with the understanding of, hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies. You know, we all have narcissistic traits and narcissism is a diagnosable condition that you can have. I think more people would qualify more than they think.

But how do you handle it day to day? There’s knowing what kind of game you’re in and it’s a game you’re just not going to play. I know I don’t have to say anything to that person. Two, I’m going to limit my distance to them. And three, I’m going to use neutral statements. I’m going to use neutral statements like, “That’s good to know. Thanks for sharing. Noted”—things that they can’t grab onto and continue to have in a conversation.

STEVEN BARTLETT: When you think of the hallmarks of a really, really one of these types of people, what are the characteristics that I should be looking out for? If I’m dealing with one such person who is going to try and manipulate me, going to try and gaslight me, what do they do?

The Narcissist’s Inability to Celebrate Others

JEFFERSON FISHER: They can never be happy for anybody but themselves. They can’t be happy for you. They can’t be happy for other people. These are the type that if you were to say, “Hey, did you see that? Stephen just got this award? Isn’t that so great? She’s nominated for whatever.” And they go, “I mean, I guess that’s fine. You know, when I did this…” and they started talking about themselves. They can never be happy for somebody else. They can’t be happy for you.

They have to find some way to turn the conversation of why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them, that the world was against them and they couldn’t get it. But they were just as deserving. “I mean, I guess that’s fine. I mean, you know, I do this, but nobody, nobody listens, nobody really cares.”

They find that they have a very victim mentality. So two is the victim mentality. Everything happens to them in some way. And three, they can’t feel for other people. They don’t do emotion. It’s always about the perception of what others would think. They’re very, very sensitive to how others might portray them.

So they’re going to give you a different view than they give other people. And so the couple might be terrible, but for a narcissist, they’re going to put on face that the relationship is perfect to everybody else. And everybody goes, “You must be so blessed to be married to that person.” And you’re going, “You kidding me? They’re fooling everybody.” And it’s a very helpless position.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Have you ever had a narcissist try and prey on you?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m in the legal field, man. Expert witnesses have opinions to them that are unquestionable. You can’t. This is their opinion and nobody else could ever argue with it when I have another expert who says just the opposite.

So a lot of the times they are very condescending, you know, “That’s fine.” And they have their opinion and this is all there is. And how dumb of you to ever question me. And usually what gives it away is if I feel like this is somebody that, okay, they can’t be reasonable, they’re never going to give an inch on what’s reasonable, I will ask this.

I’ll say, this is typically in a deposition, I’ll say, “And you think the jury’s going to like that, or you think other people are going to agree with you?” And all of a sudden they kind of change in an instant to be able to match what the jury is going to think.

So if I were to say, “And you think that’s okay, and you think others are going to find that okay, and you think that the jury, when they hear this, they’re all going to agree with this very hard line opinion,” I’ve seen it every time where they… that’s… it’s only when I reference other people, the presentation of themselves to other people, that they kind of put on a show.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Why?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Because they know that the perception of the crowd is everything. They need everybody to like them, to fawn over them. They want their idea to be the best, and so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon, to make sure that everybody loves them, at least in their mind. It’s not a reasonable thought.

So they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable, even though they could have admitted to that two hours into the deposition.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do they tend to talk more or less than the average person in the room?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Much more.

Insecurity vs. Narcissism

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is there a thin line between just being insecure and being a narcissist? Because one of the things I was thinking about you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves. I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really, really well, the first response to that would be their mention of their own book. Like, they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them.

And I was wondering, some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure and that they just, you know, they’re in a search for validation. So I’m wondering where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior and just like, extremely insecure. Maybe there’s not a line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Both can be true. You know, I’d say that not all insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure. I would… I would say that if I had to give some kind of line, it would be the interest for growth.

Insecure people are looking for ways to grow and to secure and attach. Narcissists, they’re not looking for anybody to attach onto. They’re looking for people to support them, you know, to please them. And so they have no interest in growth. To them they’ve learned all they have to learn. I am the best. I cannot improve anymore. That to me would be the difference.

STEVEN BARTLETT: When you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom, what is the reason why they couldn’t prey on you? What did you do as defense to stop their games, their typical games, working on you?

Don’t Chase Their Words

JEFFERSON FISHER: I don’t chase their words. Often one of the biggest things I see wrong in conversation is a narcissist will, same for a gaslighter, they’ll dig a hole, all right, and then they expect you to fill it, meaning they’re going to say something to frustrate you and you go, “No, no, that’s not what happened. Don’t you remember?” And you start chasing it and then they just dig another hole.

And then you keep going and you keep going and you’re exhausted because all you’ve been doing is trying to plug holes. You’re not having a real conversation. And when I can give it a very clear definition, a very clear signal of “noted,” you know, I’m just going to stay right there. I’m going to see, I’m going to put down the shovel and stay right there with them and maybe I’ll say something as neutral as “got it.”

I don’t have to chase it. I don’t have to say anything. And to me, the people that have those narcissistic traits, once they realize that they can have no game with you, that you’re not going to play, they find somebody else. They find somebody. If you’ve ever had somebody come to you and they’re the more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem.

They come with you and they have this problem. You go, “I just, I can’t right at this moment. I will in 10 minutes later.” What’s happened? They don’t have that issue. They’ve already gone to talk to somebody else.

The Power of Being Unbothered

STEVEN BARTLETT: I was watching Dame Dash on the Breakfast Club. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but it’s really another Breakfast Club. But it’s… Dame Dash is on there because he filed for bankruptcy and Charlamagne has sat there and Charlamagne is, I’ve actually interviewed both of them, both Dame and Charlemagne.

And Charlamagne is very relaxed and every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he’s broken. And then Dame Dash is like very like hot headed and like trying to prove all the reasons why he’s not broken. Like really, like, you know, gassing him. And it was… it was an interesting… it’s an interesting video to watch. I think it’s the more recent one that came out within the last year because it does show, in my view, how to deal with someone who has a very… has a significant ego.

Yeah. Which is Charlamagne. Just never changes state. Like, no matter what the volume is, no matter how much emotion, no matter when he starts calling him some quite personal insults. Charlemagne’s demeanor, his tone, his posture…

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Doesn’t change.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Unbothered.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Unbothered. And you can see it’s super triggering that you just can’t get to this guy. Like, it looks like Damon’s, like, really annoyed that he… and he tries to say more offensive things. He calls, “You’re this, you’re that, the other.” And it’s funny because I was watching it this morning, and it… for me, it kind of tracks with a lot of the stuff you’re saying about, like, just not going with them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Just not following them because they want you to go somewhere and there’s a certain conflict. They want to get in with you. And if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchored to whatever you were, your point of view is. It’s… it’s funny to watch.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They want to push you.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: My… my dad, I can remember growing up, I’d be in the passenger seat. He’s driving. And you ever had it where somebody… you’re in the passenger seat, and somebody’s just rearing a bumper right on them, and I’d be looking in the side mirror, and I’m like, I kind of start stressing out for him, you know, “Dad, somebody’s really riding the bumper, you know, right behind.” And I mean, just like clockwork.

What he would do. We have shoulders on the roads there in Texas, and rather than trying to speed up or get mad, he would just kind of pull over to the shoulder. And he would say this every time. He’d say, “Go on with your bad self.” Every time he’d go, “Go on with your bad self” in the rearview mirror, like, that’s how unbothered he was by that.

I feel like so many people get road rage, and so many people talk out loud to the cars while they’re… while they’re driving. And he… it just never got him worked up and realizing my value in my worth of knowing who I am is not at all determined by where you feel I should go.

It goes back to that idea of, if you want to tell me the sky is purple, knock yourself out now. I… I don’t have to be right. And you don’t have the ability to push me. I can move, and you have your own. I know my lane. I know my speed. I don’t have to match anybody else’s.

So when somebody is unbothered, it’s not because they don’t care. It’s not for lack of care. It’s an understanding. It’s discernment of knowing I know who I am in this moment, and why in the world would I try to be anybody else?

Becoming Untriggerable

STEVEN BARTLETT: Wouldn’t life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’d be more peaceable, that’s for sure.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s interesting because again, just reflecting on that interview I watched this morning, when Dame Dash calls Charlamagne something really, really offensive. I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlamagne to see his reaction, to figure out if what Dame Dash just said was true. And do you see what I’m saying? So he turned to him and said, “You are our ex.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And then Charlamagne just kind of laughed and, like, it just… it was like water off a duck’s back. So immediately, as the viewer, I go, well, that can’t be true then. Cause Charlamagne doesn’t seem to care.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. Well, it’s not the lack of care. It’s just the opposite. It’s all the more care of knowing who he is. So if I were to tell you right now, “I hate your purple shirt. It’s the most ugliest purple shirt I’ve ever seen, Stephen. Like, your shirt is so ugly. And that purple.” Does it affect you whatsoever?

STEVEN BARTLETT: No, because I’m not wearing a purple shirt. For anyone listening on Apple or Spot…

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s right. That’s a good point. Right. But you see how you… you already know the characteristics of… of you. You already know what you’re wearing. And it’s not just your clothes. I’m… I’m wearing my confidence. I’m wearing everything that your parents, your… your loved ones have instilled and put on you. I’m… I’m wearing the armor of… of my faith. I have all these other things that I’m wearing.

And if you want to say my shirt’s purple, that doesn’t affect me at all because that’s not who I am. And so often people get mixed up of arguing about, “No, I don’t have a purple shirt on.” When… why would you ever argue with that? It’s that quote by Abraham Lincoln that I love. “If never argue with a fool, because an onlooker can never know the difference.” Right? And so it’s knowing, no, I know exactly who I am and what I’m wearing.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And this sort of speaks to the fact that your reaction determines how onlookers will interpret everything that’s happening.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Like, you know, oh, the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh. I mean, what does it do? I mean, it infuriates them, right? But when, same thing with a bully. A bully says something to you that they know is meant to hurt you. And if I were to turn around and say, “Did you say that to embarrass me?” I mean, what are they going to do? They could say yes, they could say no.

But either way, you’re realizing I’m not going to get any reaction. What you’re showing them is for you to do this, it’s just not going to be fun for you. It’s going to be zero fun whatsoever for you. And so they’ll find that with somebody, somebody else. It’s always your reaction that’s going to determine how the conversation goes forward.

The Journey to Emotional Mastery

STEVEN BARTLETT: There’s a lot of people listening right now that are a long way away from that. Very easily triggered. Seeking justice, whatever it might be. For those people, is it like a muscle they have to build or what is the journey to getting to this level of sort of mastery?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s a discipline. It is in the same way that people invest in so many other things in our life. We invest in our health, we invest in self help books, we invest in the podcasts that we listen to. It is the same. You have to invest in your communication. We don’t get taught in school.

You know, I went to law school. People think I learned this in law school. No, law school teaches you how to read the law. It doesn’t teach you how to read people. To me, if you are somebody that is in a position of expertise and to share something, it either came at great personal cost or you’re making it up. It is something that you have learned, right?

And so, I mean whether it’s through skill, knowledge, training, you want to know how I know these things? Because I’ve lived it. You know, I have been on the bad side, I’ve been on the good side, and it’s never something that’s just going to come to you.

Physical and Emotional Preparation

STEVEN BARTLETT: We are emotional creatures and we’re hormonal creatures. So how do you think about our emotions, our hormones, our health, our physical cognitive state? As it relates to, like walking into the courtroom and being ready, like, how much of it, you know? Because if I’ve had zero hours sleep and I’m hungry and whatever else and I had an argument and I’m stressed about something, it’s going to be significantly harder to show up and be a great communicator and win the argument against somebody.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So do you think about these things all the time?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I mean, the emotions are right there connected to the words.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And what do you, how do you prepare to be ready for battle?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s an emotional awareness of how I’m feeling and also how the other person is. Because if I just respond, if I respond to their emotional reaction, I’ll miss it every time. Same thing in relationships. If I respond to the reaction, I’ll lose that moment to actually speak to the need.

So even in the courtroom, for me, if I know that I’m a little sleepy, I know I’m a little hungry, I’m a little grumpy. You know what? I can either try and pretend that I’m not, or I might get up in front of the jury and say, “Good morning, everybody. I have to admit to you, I’m a little grumpy. I didn’t eat all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?”

And everybody starts to kind of nod. And now, hey, we all kind of relate not to my words, but now to the feeling. And now you trust me more. I trust you more because I’m being more authentic.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And do you think people should do that in their own interpersonal relationships, which is just call out their state?

The Power of Authenticity

JEFFERSON FISHER: Absolutely. Because perfection is not relatable. Struggle is. Emotions are. If I were to come to you and say, and you say, “How are you?” I go, “Good. Everything’s good.” When it is not. Am I being authentic or am I being fake?

But if I were to say, “Let me tell you, I’ve had a morning and it’s tested me in a way I was not expecting, and my mind is just not here.” Does that make you trust me more? Trust me less?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Trust me more every time.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So when you can share your struggles with people, I’m not talking about your deep, most inner desire struggles. I’m saying, let me put it this way. Sierra and I check in with each other every morning. It’s my wife, and it’s only about 10 minutes after she drops the kids off. And we kind of run through how we’re doing.

And the number one thing she asks me or tells me goes, “You told me a lot about what you’re doing. You haven’t told me about how you’re feeling.” And that’s the truth of the default. I think of a lot of men and a lot of people. I’m going to tell you what’s going on, what’s on my agenda, what I’m doing. I haven’t told you a lot about how I’m feeling.

And we store all that stuff up because it’s still there. But if I can share with you what is my struggle, what’s happening, not just the good, but more importantly, the bad. I mean, it’s always going to bring that authenticity into the play.

Gender Differences in Communication

STEVEN BARTLETT: Women and men are very different in many ways. And yeah, we’re very different in many ways. Men are, I don’t know, it feels like men just, you know, again, I’m stereotyping here. So it’s not all men. And of course people are different, but just speaking generally, the stereotype is that men are typically a bit more emotionally composed, or should I say flat, and women have more emotional fluctuations.

One could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk about why that might be, et cetera, et cetera. I’ve had many scientists here talk to me about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts how someone feels. But what this means in our romantic relationships is sometimes we meet each other on very different wavelengths.

So my relationship. My partner’s probably seen me cry once, right, in seven years, maybe twice, but probably once. I’ve probably seen her cry 500 times, maybe more.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So it feels, it almost feels like we’re a different species. Like the way that I interact with my guy friends and the way that the sort of wavelength that my romantic partner, my girlfriend, operates on are very, very different. So it’s very easy to, like, misunderstand.

And we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be more emotional and more, I don’t know, men need to change how they are because it’s the problem.

JEFFERSON FISHER: But.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What about the other side of that, which is, do women also need to think about, do we need to meet in the middle, is what I’m saying?

JEFFERSON FISHER: There certainly is space to meet in the middle.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, who’s right in that? I don’t know. Is there a person that’s right in this configuration? Am I meant to be way more emotional and be, or is she meant to be way more composed? Because I think that’s often how both sides feel. They feel like, why aren’t you coming to my wavelength on this issue?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I think here’s what you’re missing. She would be much more composed if you would be more emotional. And so a lot of the times, what I find in my own marriage is when I show emotion, the more composed she is.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I mean, if I start screaming and crying, I think my girlfriend’s going to…

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m not saying screaming. I’m saying show emotion.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What kind of emotion?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Of being in it with her.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And what does that look like?

Being Present in Conflict

JEFFERSON FISHER: That means you’re going to say things that make her feel it. There’s a difference. If I just go static, this is what happens to me a lot, truthfully, is let’s say we’re in an argument about something, or something came up, and Sierra’s emotional about it. If I dismiss it. “Okay, this is so dumb, really, right now.” This is because arguments never come at the most opportune time. They come at the worst possible time. Yeah. That’s, hello, that’s all relationships.

If I dismiss it, does that make her come closer to me or further away from me? And if I’m pushing her further away from me, why would she not be more emotional? Why would she not be further away from me? If I dismiss that, for every woman to be more emotional as a man, tears are not necessary. Connection is being in. It is saying things that make her feel that you’re genuinely feeling it.

The difference I find with men and what I struggle with is I can say that I’m sad. I have a hard time expressing sad. I can say that I’m really regretful. I have a hard time expressing that. I think that is something that happens a lot with most relationships, and I think that happens a lot with men. Of, we were emotional, and we got taught early that you are not to cry. I couldn’t even tell you how many times I ever saw my dad cry.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think this is it. The modeling we had as well is my dad was either angry or completely static. And when I say angry, he was very, very rarely angry.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But when I saw him engage with my mum on an emotional level, it would be him yelling back.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: If he wasn’t yelling back, he was completely, just like, he was just very calm, static, emotional. There was no in between.

The Power of Repair

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. It all comes down to repair. How quickly you get to repair. That means can I validate the feeling that she has? Validation is repair. It’s not weakness. It’s repair.

In my world, relationships don’t fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened and it didn’t. Or you just chose not to. Or you could have said, “I’m sorry,” but you withheld it. I could have chose to validate how you’re feeling, but I said, “That’s stupid.”

And it’s those, the hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden, no wonder your world’s apart because you chose in those little bitty moments not to do the repair.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Because you said, “This is so stupid.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s so small. Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly. And so when you can validate those concerns, even when you say, she’s being emotional, you’re not. When you go into that static mode. When I go into that static mode, it’s a choice by me to do something different.

Not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive, not find ways to try and convince her that she shouldn’t feel this way. But if I validate, if I say things like, “I can see how you feel that way, if that’s how you interpreted it, you know what? I don’t blame you for feeling that way. I can see that. That sounds scary. That sounds frustrating.”

If I can choose that, it’s this, like, this isn’t the key for me. And trust me, I’m talking to myself here.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: All right. Because every guy I feel like can be like, okay, this is right. And if I can make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration just for a moment, put aside my personal frustration, invalidate the feeling, and say words that speak to her need, the need to feel heard, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like she’s not being too much, then all of a sudden, it all shrinks.

And you know what? My frustration kind of goes away. Why? Because everything’s better now. We’ve had moments of repair. And then if I still am really frustrated, then I can bring it up. “Hey, can I bring up something to you that you said that’s really bothering me?” And then you do.

Setting Boundaries Without Losing Yourself

STEVEN BARTLETT: How, as a man, do you know that you’re not setting a bad precedence for the future? And what I mean here is, if I constantly, you know, justify how she’s feeling, and I seek repair, and then when she’s happy, I just let it go. There’s, I think sometimes there’s a worry as a man that if you just lay down and take everything, then you’re just going to get more stuff in the future.

Like you’re setting a bad precedence for the future of this relationship where no, sometimes, actually, no, I wasn’t in the wrong or no, I did, I did. I do disagree with this. Right. And I think I’ve observed a lot of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends, where, because they, like, never stood up for themselves.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They’re not like living in a prison.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They, like, never stood up for themselves.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And so they’ve kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control and they, you know, even when you’re listening to this, there’s probably people you can think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term and now over the long term, he has a really hard one.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

The Balance Between Standing Your Ground and Maintaining Connection

STEVEN BARTLETT: And again, men and women, of course. So this is the balance I’m trying to understand in your view is, you know, when do you pick the fight and when do you say no, that’s not. Versus just laying down and taking it?

This is quite personal to me as well because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad, he never chose the fight. And then I look at how that played out over 20 years and I’m like, damn, it’s completely changed me because it means that I will now go through the conflict and stand up for myself.

When I hit a place where I’m like, I’m not going to be able to honor that for you for the next 30 years, I will stand my ground. Do you know if there’s, like an area where, say, my girlfriend’s unhappy about a certain thing I do. If I don’t think that I’m going to be able to promise to not do that for the next 10, 20, 30 years, if I’m unwilling to change, I have to stand my ground. Because if I can see today, it’s hell tomorrow.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. What I’m hearing, what I’m hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my rights, fear of my dominance.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah. Like my freedom being…

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s, you want to hear the probably the number one word you’ll hear with relationships that are on the brink? It’s “caged.” Men tell me they’re caged. You know, the man feels caged.

And really all that is, it’s a lack of confidence, of knowing if I am willing to do something different, then I can’t have anything else. So it’s thinking in terms of zero sum. See, both can be true. You can still validate how she’s feeling and not at all touch what you still know to be true. So you can still disagree with her.

But every time we go into a conversation, we walk in with a need, a need to feel loved, understood. It is always depth. Like, you think of like a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if when she was small and she screamed or she cried or told me no, still tells me no, you know, of all these things. And I just said, no, are you kidding me? You’re going to tell me? And you’re crying right now, really? And I get all upset when she screams.

But with kids, we don’t do that. We go, she’s hungry, she’s tired, she’s scared. And we just forget that we’re all just big kids and we all have those hidden needs underneath us. And so you still can stand your ground and say, so let’s run it. So let’s say, for example.

The Phone in Bed Dilemma

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, specific example from my ex girlfriend. I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message because there’s something going on in my business back in the UK and I was in Asia at the time. And she said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any phones in bed ever. I could never touch my phone in the bedroom, right?

And as I thought this through, I thought, God, I thought about all the scenarios where I might need to touch my phone in the bedroom. And what I realized is that what would end up happening is I just wouldn’t come into the bedroom. I’d, like, go and do it in the toilet or the shower or I just like, I wouldn’t come to bed if I needed to do something on my phone, right?

And so the conversation went where I was like, I realized in this moment I had to kind of like, not lay down on this issue because I would disappoint her in the future. I was setting myself up to fail in the future if I accepted this and made her some kind of promise or, you know, agreed that I wasn’t going to touch my phone ever again in the bedroom. And so that was one such example where I’m like, I think I actually need to stand my ground a bit here or I’m setting myself up for a future expectation I can’t meet.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So in that moment, what did you think her need was?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Her need was connection. And she was interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a…

JEFFERSON FISHER: Disconnection in some way and could it possibly be perceived as that?

STEVEN BARTLETT: 100%. Okay, but it wasn’t the phone. It was the, it was me not. It was her not feeling connected, in my view, at that moment in time, in that particular week, because I was so busy in that particular week that I think she was trying to find a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express the feeling of disconnection.

So that’s why I look back on it and go, it was actually something else that was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in time. Probably.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But that was an example where I, like, if I’d conceded it would have, it would not have been sustainable. There would have been more arguments in the future.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m not saying you concede. I’m saying there are times that if you want the key to the relationship, it is putting her comfort over your inconvenience.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice.

Addressing the Need, Not the Reaction

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, you’ve already kind of named it. One, the wrong thing to say is, “Well, you were just on your phone. I mean, you’re on your phone all the time. What are you talking about?” And you start arguing because now you’re responding to the reaction. You’re not addressing the need.

If you were to slow down and say, “Look, I still want to be connected with you. Is there any kind of place where I can still take care of what I need to take care of and also be connected to you?” Or if there’s a situation where you say, “Well, what about this? Before I just get my phone and grab it, I’m going to tell you what I’m doing ahead of time, or I’m going to ask.”

Maybe that’s where it is. You don’t want to ask. “Hey, Greg is supposed to email me some slides or a deck or whatever. Can I check that out real quick?” You hear how she’s probably going to say yes, but the fact that you are saying, “Hey, I’m acknowledging our connection right now,” and so it might make you uncomfortable saying, “I don’t want anybody telling me what to do. I don’t have to. I don’t want to report to anybody.”

Okay, that’s fine. Well, then you just know that connection is always going to be weak. And so you’re signing your name to that. I don’t think, I mean, there’s, I have lots of thoughts on phones and houses and where they should go.

But if you were to have, instead of arguing “What are you talking about? You’re on your phone all the time,” and instead said, “I can see how that would make you feel like I’m not paying attention to you,” and letting her respond to that and you saying, “Look, I don’t want to. Me being on this, this is not at all me trying to signal that I’m not trying to be here with you. I’m trying to escape on you,” and have that conversation.

And that’s where you just say, “It is important to me that I have these things and for me to be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain, I need to take care of these things. What’s the best way that I can do that?”

I think then that’s when you actually are able to have a conversation of, like, let’s make a game plan that makes sense. Because if you put your inconvenience over her comfort, she will always discredit that to you. Your bank account will always continue to go low. But if you say, “Look, I’m willing to do a little bit of inconvenient things to make you feel better, make you more comfortable,” that only grows your account. I mean, when you have a relationship that can last a whole lot longer.

The Fear of Losing Freedom

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think I’m slightly traumatized because I think the model that I had of relationships meant that someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your freedom.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Until you are virtually powerless.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I think that’s a lot of guys. I’ve felt that. I’ve certainly felt that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah. So I try and fight back, and sometimes I think I overdo it. And this is one such example where actually, objectively, when I hear myself say, she asked me not to be on my phone in bed. I’m like, well, that’s kind of a reasonable request, to be honest. Like, the bedroom can be a place where we just, like, go on the fence. I could just do it in my office and then come to bed when I’m ready.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But I think my, I get my backup because I’ve just got so many examples of men who, like, didn’t stand up for themselves.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And then were rendered powerless down the line. So it’s like, if I give you this, then tomorrow you’re going to say, maybe you can’t be on my phone in the kitchen.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And then maybe I can’t be on my phone in the bathroom. And then, yeah, I just thought if I just stand up for myself here, then I just hold off that.

JEFFERSON FISHER: What I’m not at all saying is that the guy go, “Yeah, sure, that’s fine.” And then she asked for something. I go, “Yeah, sure, that’s fine.” And you just, you’re super passive with everything. That’s where I think you do feel like you’re just, you look around you, you’ve given up everything to where you don’t feel like I have anything to grab onto.

Defending Your Hobbies and Personal Space

STEVEN BARTLETT: I want to throw in another example that a lot of people relate to. A lot of men have, like, a hobby with their guy friends.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like watching the football, talking shit in a group chat. I think it’s so important to defend those things.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Absolutely.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Even for her attraction to you?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Mm.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, I think I have no evidence to say that this is true. It’s just a feeling. I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I’ll stand up for myself in certain areas and that I’ll say, “No, no, no, no. This is me time. This is for me.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: I agree.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I can imagine the opposite, the passivity or kind of rolling over as being a really unattractive thing.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Absolutely. I think where you are laying yourself down or just rolling over, that is, that can be very unattractive. You need to have a backbone. At the same time, you can’t be so extreme that your way is the only way.

But when you choose to say, “No, no, this is, I’m willing to take a stand here,” then that I think, to me, it sends a signal of strength, right? Strength of mind, strength of will.

But for me, when you have those things that are your hobbies, the things that you really like, a sign of a good relationship is that she’s going to be happy you get to do those because they make you happy, even though she might hate it and think it’s annoying and it’s weird, and, you know, you’re taking up that space in the garage and whatever, but if it makes you happy and they know that this is your space and this is your time, because you have to have those things that fill you up. Right.

And the truth is, the marriage isn’t enough. The kids aren’t enough. Your job’s not enough. You have to have things that personally for you, by yourself. If your thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks, go do it. You know, to be able to fill yourself up.

I know for parents, early parents, there’s this mindset of, “I have to be with my kid all the time. I can’t ever leave my kid. I need to just be there.” But what you find is you’ll be so much better when you actually go take care of yourself and go on that guy trip. Go play that round of golf or whatever it is that’s actually going to feed you and fill you up, and then I can be there for you all the more.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think some people’s partners, they’re not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their partner cuts out as much of these things as they possibly can so that they can control their partner. I mean, I think we’ve all got a friend in a group chat.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Who has kind of like, seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and agency since they’ve been in that relationship.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They’d say they’re on a leash.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They’re on a leash. Like, they can never come to the thing.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s not okay.

The Slippery Slope of Boundaries

STEVEN BARTLETT: And it appears to be a consequence of boundaries, like not reinforcing your boundaries early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope. Boundaries. Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, where you kind of make a concession, and because you’ve made a concession, they’re more likely to pursue another concession.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And then before you know it, you’re behind bars alone.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. And frustrated and wondering how you got here. I know we’ve spoke about boundaries in the past. To me, it ultimately comes down to, am I protecting the priority? So if I know that my marriage is the priority, I’m going to set boundaries that protect that.

I mean, for me, in my life right now, whether I’m working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever, it’s am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my family and my relationship? So you have to first define what is the priority here.

So if the priority is knowing that we want to be, you and your partner want to be in a relationship, and you make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that’s nothing gets scheduled on date night. There are certain things that just aren’t movable. The answer is no. And when you can have those really hard no’s, it makes feeling the time of everything else all that much easier. But that’s it. I mean, it ultimately comes down to, are you being real about it?

Being Nice vs. Being Kind

STEVEN BARTLETT: Are you being fake about it in your view? You talk about being nice and being kind. I’ve heard you talk about this on your podcast. What’s the difference between being a nice person and a kind person? Which one should I aspire to be?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Stop being nice at the expense of being real. So nice is something that we got taught really early on, hey, be nice, play nice. And if you believe forever and always that being nice serves you well, you will ultimately serve it. You will people please. You will only choose to say the nice thing. You will. Nice is very surface.

If you went on a date with somebody and I was like, how was the date? And you said she was nice. Yeah. Does that mean that was good? No, of course. But you’re wanting to say the nice thing. And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what’s something that is politically correct or whatever it is.

Kind is very deep. It’s related to the word kin. It’s connection. So where nice is concerned about surface, kind is worried about connection. So nice people say, oh, I can’t tell them the truth. That wouldn’t be nice. That wouldn’t be nice. I can’t say that. Kind says, I care about you enough to say the truth. I care about you enough to tell you the truth.

So when you have the chance, don’t choose nice at the expense of being real. Choose the kind thing. Like if you and I were in a conversation and I was like, I could really, I could just go, yeah, man, that sounds great, with a decision you’re going to make, because I just don’t want to upset you. That wouldn’t be nice versus me saying, Steven, I have to tell you, man, this doesn’t feel right to me. Which one’s the kind thing of telling you the actual truth? It’s being authentic to it.

So a lot of people, they look back and they’re just people pleasing. That’s all they’ve been. Because they’ve always chosen what’s nice, not what’s kind.

The People Pleaser’s Dilemma

STEVEN BARTLETT: You must get a lot of messages from a lot of people pleasers all the time. And what is it they want from you?

JEFFERSON FISHER: They’re wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start pleasing themselves. Like how to, I always say that there’s not a problem with people pleasing as long as you’re one of them. You know, it’s okay to do things that other people ask you to do and you want to serve other people. I’m not saying it in a servitude way of I can never have any of my own voice.

It’s where you constantly put yourself in inconvenient places for the sake of other people, hoping that they will see your true value. So they conflate the pleasure of others with the value of themselves. And so meaning I mean nothing to myself if you’re not happy with me. I mean nothing to myself if I can’t please you. You want this? Oh, okay. I’ll go get it. You need this. Let me do this. Oh, I already thought about this. You love this. And they’ve forgotten their own sense.

And so I’ve met people that have, you know, a lot of it’s also early childhood. They learned that to save the marriage between mom and dad, they need to be everything to everybody. They have to give up. They’ve missed childhood in order to please everybody else. And so it becomes a pattern of safety. It’s a survival skill of knowing for me to have to survive in this, for me to have worth, well, I can’t do it unless everybody else is happy with me.

Real Transformations

STEVEN BARTLETT: Are there any case studies that come to mind of people that have read your work and have made real transformations that have shocked you or made you happy or proven to you the profundity of being able to take control of conversation?

JEFFERSON FISHER: We took a survey poll within my membership and it was already, I think it was like 93% of people with even in the first three chapters of my book, it had already significantly impacted them in their job, their family, and exactly what they were reading the book for, because everybody picks it up for the conversation they have in their mind.

You know, people don’t watch my content to handle to know how to handle the last conversation. They watch to know how to handle the next one. And so to be able to provide the results that they’re wanting is a blessing.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’ve just finished writing my third book. I haven’t firmed up the title yet, but I have started mocking up some different designs. And I’ve been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details. The typography, the font, the color, the text placement, the stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create something that stands out, something that’s one better than the rest.

And designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative things I’ve learned over the years. But it’s also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So I’ve created the One Better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it you’ll find principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply so you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do. Just head over to Adobe LY1 better to download Adobe Express now and make you visit the Learn tab to discover how you can become one better than the rest.

Difficult Conversations That Stay With You

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is there a particular moment of conflict which stays with you the most when you think about a difficult conversation in your life?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, there was one that I talk about my book that was probably the most gut wrenching at that time was me leaving the law firm where I was at and having to talk to my dad about leaving that firm. But that’s, let’s say that’s in the book. What’s fresh for me now? You want to talk about that?

I mean, what’s fresh for me now is conversations that I’ve had with my wife, with Sierra, and I’m having a hard time reaching and she’s having a hard time reaching for me where I kind of just go static, where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse or I’m trying to, and I have a hard time expressing it. So the best thing I can do in that mind is I use my words to be able to say, you know, I feel regret for what’s happened or what I’ve done. And I may not be showing it right now, but I, this is not something I’m proud of, to be at least able to show in my words how I’m feeling.

So let’s say, for example, it’s about anything related to, it could be any argument really with a husband and a wife or a spouse or partner or whatever it is. But we had one not too long ago where we knew we were going to be traveling for a bit. And sometimes if it’s just the two of us, what’s going to happen? You’re going to have some spats about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a fight about, but that’s what happens.

And I said to her, I was like, well, that, you know, if we do this and do that, you know, we’ll probably, we’re not probably going to argue about it, it’s going to be fine. And she said to me, she said, well, either way it’s good, meaning if you don’t argue about something, great. But if we do argue about it, that’s good too. To be able to see it as a chance to understand each other a little bit more, to know each other a little bit more and it’s not without being radically honest with the person you want to be with, and that’s hard for a lot of people.

When Arguments Are Worth Having

STEVEN BARTLETT: I had a friend of mine say to me the other day that the thing that annoys him most about his wife is just, like, how long she takes to get ready. And he, like, really, like, offloaded it to me in a way where I’m like, this is a problem for him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get ready. And she’s like, which means they’re always late to things. A lot of guys can relate to this, including myself.

But the way he said it to me was surprising. And I remember thinking, should he just go and have this conversation with her, or is this, like, an illegitimate concern to raise? I think that sometimes, you know, because you were talking about your experience with Sierra and her saying, like, either way, it’s a good thing. Are all arguments warranted? Like, is that argument, you take too long to get ready, and it’s pissing me off. Is that a valid thing to raise with your partner?

JEFFERSON FISHER: In therapy, they say if it’s hysterical, it’s historical, meaning if it’s really that big of a deal, then there’s probably something deeper going on. If it’s really affecting you that much. It’s like those people who say, well, he’s always pushing my buttons. I ask, why is there a button if it’s always getting you worked up? There’s probably something deeper that you’re not noticing. It’s probably related to something that happened when he was a kid or something that maybe it’s, here, let me give a good example.

You know, in our marriage, I’m the spender. She’s the saver. She can turn a penny into a dime. Right? You can pinch a penny into a dime. And she got really frustrated with me of, like, why do you always need the nicest thing? All right? And that’s typically, if she has an option of several things, even if I don’t know the price tags, I typically end up going with the one that’s most expensive.

And it infuriates her because she wouldn’t do that. She’s going to wait for it to go on sale. She could have something she really wants, and she’s just going to track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale, and that’s, that gives her satisfaction. Me, I’ll just go buy it. And I’m not saying I’m crazy. I’m not like, some crazy spender. But this is an issue that has always bothered her and bothered me.

And what we had come to find out, we had actually used this with my AI actually. But what we had come to learn is that the reason why it affected me so much of like, why do you always choose the nice thing is related to when I was a kid, as the oldest, I didn’t get much of the nice thing. My stuff was typically hand me down from a friend or something else, or I didn’t get the nice thing. And at some point along the way, you equate that to your sense of worth.

And so when I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself, yeah, I bought the on brand cornflakes. You know, I bought the on brand medication because to me that was equal to how I wanted others to perceive me. And so when she realized that, oh, it’s not just me wanting to splurge or have some kind of, you know, you just think you have to buy the best. It was like, no, that’s actually, it’s a reflection of when you buy me something nice. I feel like you equate that to how much value I hold. I’m not worth buying something nice for. And so it was related a lot to my stuff.

And we got to talk the same about her stuff of why she doesn’t want to buy the thing. So it’s like that having these super conversations with your friend of why does it bother her when she takes forever to get dressed. Well, most likely it’s related to something in his past that’s bothered him that he’s not seeing yet or the conversation worth having. Yeah, I think it’s absolutely worth having if it’s bothering you that much. Yeah, if it’s hysterical, it’s historical.

The Inner Child in Communication

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think that’s a really good point, which is we’re all just dealing with other people’s inner child. We’re all dealing with—it’s just like me as a child facing you as a child. I know we look like adults now. I have no gray hair. But it’s really still us just playing out the stories and narratives from our childhood. Oftentimes you’re exactly right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They say in therapy the worst thing about parents is that they had parents. You know, I mean, it’s so easy for me just to look at my mom and forget that she had parents, you know, that what they did to her, rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me, you know, and that’s the definition of the generational cycle. And it’s choosing to do something different with who you are and who you want to be and how you want to raise the next generation.

But it’s all survival skills. It’s all childhood trauma that’s related. And when people—I have a section in my book of having people define out their own communication skills they saw growing up. Because most of the time, if you feel like arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody’s yelling. And it’s also typically cultural, you know, of how certain cultures, how they argue and how loud it is.

And if everybody versus there’s some cultures and families that it’s very quiet. Like, I’ll never forget going to a friend’s house when I was about 7 and his parents, while we’re eating cereal, just had at it. And I was mortified, like arguing, arguing, arguing. I mean, yelling at each other. And I am like bowling hand mortified. And my friend is just eating cereal, like bother him whatsoever. That’s just another Tuesday, you know.

And whereas I grew up with—if my parents argued, it was going to be in their bedroom. You know, I knew if they were going to—they went to close the door and they were going to have a conversation that they didn’t want us to hear. And so everybody has been modeled something different.

I’ve seen it on the negative side where people feel like you don’t really love me unless you want to fight with me. It’s because that’s all they’ve been modeled fights. They have to say the most hurtful thing. They need to be in tears. They need to be saying horrible things to each other for them to feel any kind of love.

And I’ve also seen it where people are wallflowers. They don’t want to say anything. They want to be really hesitant because bad things happened when they spoke out at home. They realized that telling the truth wasn’t good for them. They learned that lies protected them.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s interesting when you have one parent that conducted themselves in a certain way and the other parent was the opposite. What then happens to you? Like which communication style you then adopt?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Which parent takes more of an interest in you is where it typically goes. The one you’re most of the time with. And see, I know people who—their parents are kind of absent, but they spend a lot of time with their grandmother. And so I know a guy who—he sounds just like his Southern grandmother from Kentucky, you know, because that’s who he spent most of his time with. And so it’s who takes the most interest in you.

But what I find so interesting in communication, we talk—everything is learned from how we were raised is at one point in time, there was utility to what you were doing. There was a utility to lying. It protected you. Protected maybe your mom. It protected maybe your dad. There was utility to it. There was a utility to manipulating to be able to say things weren’t this way in order to keep the family together. So there was a utility to the very skill that you still have, and eventually it catches up with you.

Why We Accidentally Become Disliked

STEVEN BARTLETT: What is it about our communication, do you think, that makes us accidentally disliked by other people?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It sounds fake.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It sounds fake. And how does it sound fake? Give me some color.

JEFFERSON FISHER: If you want to know the secret, if somebody’s being fake with you, there’s really three things that you’ve got to know. Number one, it’s what I call “bestie bombing.”

STEVEN BARTLETT: Bestie bombing?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. So instead of like love bombing, it’s bestie bombing. I have people who come to me all the time. I feel like somebody’s being fake with them, and what they’re doing is—”Oh, my gosh. I just—we’re literally the same person. Oh, I think we’re best friends.” And we just met. Like, I just—we already talk. We’re just standing next to each other at the same party and, “Oh, we’ve got to go. Oh, my gosh, you’re my best—you’re my soulmate.”

And it’s like they give way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you. And it’s nothing. It’s not what secure people do. Secure people don’t attach to you instantly.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is that a form of manipulation?

JEFFERSON FISHER: No, it’s a form of insecurity. It’s a form—because it would be manipulation if they actually meant it, but they don’t. It’s these inauthentic relationships that all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, we’re going to be best friends. I love you so much.” And you’re like, “I don’t even know your last name. What are you talking about?”

So you see that a lot. Two is the over compliments. We all have this sixth sense to be able to sniff out if that’s real or not. Like, nobody needs to teach you if it’s a fake laugh or not. You know what I mean? I don’t know, was that real or not, Steven?

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s so funny. Yeah. Because we think we can spot everyone else’s fake laugh and then we can spot ours.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s like—but nobody had to teach that to you. Nobody had to say, “Hey, if you hear it like this, it’s a fake laugh.” No, no, no. We all, as humans, we have an ability, a sense to go, “Nah, that didn’t sound real. That’s not a real smile.” You know, people have their like photo smile and the real smile.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And the same with the laughter. Or like, that’s not—that wasn’t that funny. Or they over compliment something. They compliment your shoes. I mean, and then they have really—they go, “Oh my gosh, I love that outfit.” And then all of a sudden they’ve turned their head. You know what I mean? They’re not really truly engaged in what it is. It’s just, it’s a ritual to them of that’s how they have learned.

Because to me, if you have to perfectly curate yourself, this sense of perfection, you’re not getting the real human. You’re getting a person in character. You’re getting them in “and scene.” You know, they have to like get into it. And so it’s something that’s so fake every single time.

And then the third that you have to watch out for are the people that aren’t willing to actually have an interest in you. Meaning they never ask anything about you. They’re only wanting to talk about themselves. Like, have you ever been in a—I know you have—and you’re networking in a big room and somebody’s looking at you and all of a sudden they’re looking at the room like they’re looking for who they’re going to talk to next and you’ve lost them.

And so it’s like, we’re both just kind of here saying things. We’re going to slow down our words so it’s not as awkward. And you say things like, “Yeah, that’s crazy. Yeah.” And like while you’re both looking for somebody else to talk to. But that’s what happens. You realize you state, you come out of focus and they’re looking for the next person.

The Power of Presence

STEVEN BARTLETT: A really surprising point of feedback or compliment someone gave me once. And it’s surprising because I never considered it to be something that people were noticing. Is when I do like meet and greets and you’re meeting say 100 people before or after a talk or whatever, and they’re coming up one at a time. I will get DMs in the preceding days of people telling me that they liked the way that they watched me pay attention to someone else. Do you get this all the time?

JEFFERSON FISHER: They’re watching.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They’re watching how interested you are in the person that’s talking to you. And I didn’t, obviously—it’s not something I’d thought about before until probably had about 20 messages over the last year or two from people saying, “And you know what I noticed, Steven, how much you were paying attention to the person that spoke to you, not to them exactly.” Line waiting. But it’s the person. And I just thought that’s so interesting that we judge other people by how they interact with other people while we’re watching as well.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And being interested is seen as makes you likable.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I guess presence is the highest form of authenticity. I can talk to you, but am I here with you? Do I have my eyes with you? Am I interested in you? Am I easily distracted? Do I have my phone? Am I really paying attention? Or am I making sure that, you know, you are the most important thing that’s happening in this moment, even if it’s a glimmer, even if it’s for 30, 20 seconds and you’re doing a meet and greet and you’re saying hi or you’re signing their book.

Do you ask them their name? Do you use their name? Do you look at them with intent of true, genuine, “Thank you for being here. None of this would happen if not for you.” People are watching the whole time and they know. I mean, it’s such a—it’s like, you know it when you feel it kind of thing.

And to me, it’s presence. Am I truly here with you? Because even at the house, you know, you can say, “Well, I’m home all the time,” but are you just like on your phone? Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always reading? Are you—that’s not presence.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’m going to play this video on the screen for anyone that’s watching the video.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Okay.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But it immediately made me think of this clip that went viral of Miley Cyrus, Naomi Campbell.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I haven’t seen this.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They were doing a meet and greet together and they were just chatting to each other and kind of ignoring the fans. And you can—there you go. And I just remember thinking, this is like the antithesis of what we’ve just said.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s painful to watch. I know it’s painful for the people. I mean, it’s several layers of where one, it’s an area of really little forgiveness. You know, if you think of somebody of her caliber, so to say, of like her celebrity, right? Seen thousands, millions, it’s happened. And is there really room for just having a conversation with somebody?

Like if I—if you’re her, how do you—what would be the justification, right? If you could just pause and say, what is it? Maybe you say, “Well, there isn’t any.” Okay, that’s fine. But let’s say one, when it comes to presence, there’s really not any room for forgiveness. It’s either you’re present with them or you’re not because this kind of thing can last forever.

Second of all, people will forget what you did, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel. And people remember you, Steven, of they will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you and how nice you were, how present you were and how you were genuinely interested in them. And that makes all the difference.

If you have one slip up—that’s why I say it’s not very forgivable—when you have one slip up, it’s showing applied to all. Because if you can do it to them, you can do it to me.

STEVEN BARTLETT: The slip up will also travel much further, faster too.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, faster, because I guarantee you, you think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had and it’s had genuine real interest. They mess up one time, they get tired one time, well then all of a sudden that’s what travels way faster.

But the thing is that—that’s why I say presence is the highest form of authenticity. Because if you can take that moment to be truly interested in somebody. Because who am I? You know, I’m a guy from a small town who made videos in my car and you’re going to come to my book signing and you traveled and you flew in two hours. Why would I not hold up? Take the line. Let me spend three minutes with you. Can I give three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here?

And so when you have that humility and there’s several people I know, you know many names of, they forgot how they got what they got.

The Power of Presence and Small Moments

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh yeah. I have a really interesting example of this recently where we appointed new chairman to our company, he’s called Nicky and incredible guy. He’s been at like even Proctor and Gamble doing product for I don’t know, 12 years. Then went to Boston Consulting Group and was one of the senior figures at Boston consulting group for 25 years. And, you know, he’s in the home stretch of his career, and he joined our company, and he is. You know, he’s achieved so much. He’s worked with the biggest. The best in the world globally.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So he’s got the right. One would say, I like that one to be a certain way. That’s what someone might say. But I’m over here in Los Angeles. He joins the company as chairman. And the interesting thing, the interesting feedback I got, I know 5,000 miles away, was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said, oh, I love Nicky. And I was like, explain. And he went. He sat down with me and gave me an hour of his time. That was the reason he loved him. That was it. It was presence.

And what I later found out was that Mickey went into the company and there is hundreds of people, and he sat down with every single one of them, regardless of whether you’re an intern or whether you’re the CEO. And it’s always stayed with me how much that has mattered, how much that has shaped his perception just disproportionately. He’s brilliant in everything, but disproportionately shaped his perception just by giving someone the most valuable thing, which is just their time.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I’m. I mean, maybe it’s a story of how to be a good partner. Maybe it’s a story of how to be in the public eye.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Maybe it’s also a story of how to be a great colleague or team member or leader.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Or just a great human.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

The Spirit of Giving and Humility

JEFFERSON FISHER: I think there is. When you’re always in the habit of giving, giving then feels a lot like receiving. So when I’m giving my time, it also feels like I’m receiving that time back when I can continually have that spirit and you have that knowledge of humility, they say, what does humility mean? It means you realize that you are just as weird and terrible as everybody else.

When you realize I’m the chief, worst person there is no, I’m not better than a single person that is in line to do or attend something or sit in an audience. I’m no better. I’ve just been through a lot. Still been through a lot, and so I know a lot. And when you have that mindset of, I want to meet and touch every single person. If I were to come in here and only talk to you, but not talk to your team, what do you think that’s going to do?

When you can go somewhere and not just talk to who’s the most popular. But also talk to who’s the least. Like it’s. It is a. You will always get way more and for yourself and for the other person, when you can lower yourself to say, hey, we’re just humans in a room. How’s it going?

Observing Character Through Small Actions

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s interesting that we’re figuring people out by how we observe them vicariously. We were talking about it in the context of like a meet and greet a second ago.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What you said there tracks perfectly with that, which is when you walked in the room, you didn’t just speak to me. You also asked Berta, who’s recording the podcast today, what her name was. And then you said to Berta, you said, thank you for doing this right now. Isn’t it funny that I remember?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Isn’t it funny that that was like two and a half hours ago. And I remember because it was really memorable to me that you did that, because not everybody does that. Everybody will notice that Bud is in the room with us and she’s running all these cameras and she’s putting it together. But for some reason, just before we started recording, you made a point of asking her what her name was and then thanking her for doing this today.

Most people don’t do that. And as you walk away from today, I’m not going to remember like that you walked in and said something nice about me or whatever. The most shocking thing, and therefore the most memorable, because it is the most unusual, because it is typically the most overlooked, is you acknowledging the other people. Yeah.

And I’ve noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to, but I remember in something I wrote a long time ago saying how useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality. And what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance. And I came home to my girlfriend and said, this incredible gym, it’s massive. They even have 100 foot climbing wall in the entrance. What I’m doing is I’m pointing at the most absurd thing to give you a shortcut that tells you everything about that gym. Now, if I point at the most absurd thing, you know, the gym is big.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I got chills. Yeah. Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you know what I mean?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: If I see this 100 foot climbing wall, you know, there’s lots of running machines.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So if I, if I. When I leave here and go, he was so nice. He even spoke to Berta and thanked her for doing the podcast I’m using that as a shortcut because it’s the most standout, absurd thing to tell other people everything about.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes, I love that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And this is why we should value the seemingly petty and seemingly small and seemingly inconsequential. Because other people don’t. Therefore it creates maximal impact.

The Big Conversations Rarely Matter

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes. That’s why the big conversations rarely matter. The small ones do. It’s the small ones with strangers. It’s the conversations you don’t have on the stage, it’s the conversations you have in your driveway, it’s the conversations you have in your backyard at the coffee shop. It’s the conversations you have to somebody passing by in the elevator. Like it’s those. That’s what defines the human experience.

If I were to text you a compliment, right, that’s one thing. But if I were to say, hey, I just finished lunch with so and so who, you also know, I got to tell you, this person loves you so much and I share with you what they said about you. You’re going to take that differently. If I wanted to give you, let’s say if somebody want to give me a gift, right. But instead they didn’t give it to me, they gave it to my kids. I mean, that’s. How much more would that define how much they care, Right.

It’s. Anytime I go on a stage, I make it a priority that I know the guy who’s. Or girl who’s putting on my. The AV system, the lapel mic, the everything. I want to know their name. I don’t know how many times they’ve done this today, how they’re doing because it’s so easy just to turn and keep talking to who’s important while. And act like they’re just doing it. When you can truly talk to the people that’s just a regular person and forget that you don’t have to just stick to the somebodies. You don’t have to look always for the somebodies.

Invisible Priorities

STEVEN BARTLETT: I used to say that again, this comes from employing a lot of people that we all have invisible priority. And it shows up in the moments that matters the most. But it’s built in the moments that seem to matter the least.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And the example I always think of is being working in the New York office many years ago and getting a message from my team member just saying, oh, Jenny’s so nice. She just. Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from her desk and ran across to the first aid kit and sorted him out. She’s so nice. And I’d hear that 3,000 miles away. And then a year later, I’d be sat with Jenny during her promotion conversation.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And that one thing she did, that small thing she did was often the time where I’d go, do you know what? This person is a certain type of person, and we should double down on them. And then I’ve got the opposite as well. I’ve got the little thing someone did to someone who was not necessarily their line manager or significant.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And, you know, and even things that happened to me years ago when I came up to. I walked up to someone famous. I’ve told this story before. It’s so crazy. I told this story in the podcast, like, episode three, and no one listened. And then, like, three, four years later, the podcast got bigger and people started listening to people go back to the old episodes. And this famous person tweeted me, like, four years later and was like, I heard you’re talking about me in the UK, Blah, blah, blah, blah. But I was just sharing it as an example for, like, invisible prior, where someone. I’d gone up to someone famous and asked them a question, and they just like, bang.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, lay them to me.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I know. I don’t know what they’re going through that day, but it always. You know.

The Rock Wall Moments

JEFFERSON FISHER: But that brings it around, like, full circle because like we just said, you can have those little moments where it’s the rock wall. Right. Where little moments of connection, of presence, of real authenticity of them being with you that you’ll remember forever. And I bet if I had to guess, there’s a moment in Stephen at the playground growing up. That or a teacher, somebody in your life said something that was nice and you’ve remembered forever.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh, yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: But I would also venture to bet.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yes. Before you even said I could, I thought of the moment that.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, okay, Playground, Stephen. Where somebody said something hurtful.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Or rude or said something about how you look or your appearance. Maybe not even recess, but sometime in your life.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh, yeah.

The Lasting Impact of Words

JEFFERSON FISHER: And it was just something, maybe it was about for a lot of people. It’s like their weight or their appearance or their looks. And they’ve carried that around with them forever. And that, like, without knowing it, that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life. And so it’s so wild to me how the positive is remembered, the negative is remembered much longer and travels a lot farther.

And I mean, it’s. When I ask that to a group that I’m talking to, those hands are always way more raised for the negative, for the one thing that the power of your words lasts way longer than you’d ever think. The ripple effect will affect people you’ve never met. I mean, you think. Think of the people who you’ve touched and the people you’ve never met, but yet they have a perception of you based three persons down. Right.

And how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and their kids, Children I’ll never meet. And when you realize that how I talk to the person behind the cashier affects how he or she talks to their kids when they go home, based on what I said will determine whether they come home and say, I had a really bad day, I had a really hard day, and it’s because of what I said, because I was rude or I was impatient, because they didn’t get it to me fast enough.

And all of a sudden, without knowing, just as much as the positive lasts, so does the negative. It’s. Now what I chose to say is responsible for how they’re treating their own kids.

The Survival Adaptation of Gossip

STEVEN BARTLETT: And that’s how we are as humans. Right. The reason why we survived is because we’re good at gossip.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That too.

STEVEN BARTLETT: We’re good at passing on stories. So, you know, I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk.

JEFFERSON FISHER: No.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, I could. You know, don’t go near him. Don’t go near that cave.

JEFFERSON FISHER: A threat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Person there that’s going to kill us. So.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s a survival adaptation, I guess, in some respects, to be gossipy and to pass on people’s reputations.

JEFFERSON FISHER: We’ve always asked, what’s the news? You know, people going through town, from town to town, you don’t really have a paper. It’s, do you have any news?

The Five Most Important Things for Masterful Communication

STEVEN BARTLETT: So I’m going to push you to close to give me the five things that you think are most important for anyone who’s striving to be a masterful communicator, conversationalist to get what they want out of life, which is really what I think is the last domino. When we talk about body language or communication tactics or all the things we’re talking about, I think people are trying to get something out of life, whether it’s to have a better relationship or to be respected or get a promotion to be successful. I think that’s probably the output we’re looking for ultimately. Do you agree with that? I don’t want to. Like, what is it that. What’s the last domino that people are looking for when they talk about this stuff up here?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Self worth.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Self worth. Okay.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Am I enough?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Am I enough? Okay, so what are the five most important things to summarize, if you had to give me five?

Authenticity: The Foundation of Connection

JEFFERSON FISHER: The first is authenticity. If I cannot be genuine with you, if I cannot be real with you, then I can be nobody to you.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And on authenticity, you know, on your bad day, are you still authentic at work?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, if you’re really having a bad day, do you show up to work as your authentic self?

JEFFERSON FISHER: I would say yes. I mean, there’s obviously certain parameters that are within social norms of just because I’m having a bad time and in a bad mood, does that give me a right to rip you a new one just because you said hello to me that morning, you know, no, but I think that there is certainly a space to say, don’t act like you’re happy when you’re not.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What about lying? Is that a violation of authenticity? So a colleague comes up to me, they say, what do you think of my new haircut? And you think it’s terrible?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Would you say it’s an interesting choice? Probably what I’d say.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So you wouldn’t lie?

JEFFERSON FISHER: No, I wouldn’t. I would probably change it to where it’s. I’m glad that they like it. You know, I don’t have to like it for you to give any type of worth if you like it. That’s awesome.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And authenticity as a strategy builds trust over time. So that’s a long term game, I guess.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. No, I came across some research recently where it was in social settings, those that are more authentic are also the ones that are more trusted and the ones you want to be around more.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point about people pleasing, I guess. But there is a certain type of person, I think, that probably struggles to just be, you know, just to show up in all the ways that they are to be themselves.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They grew up in places that weren’t safe. Whether physically or emotionally, they grew up unsafe. And so they’re always tense, they’re always anxious, they’re always worried about the next shoe to drop. They can’t rest. You see people that had come from very hard, harsh environments. You’ll see the survival skills that have come out of that. It’s because they simply didn’t have a place to be safe.

Reduce Distraction: The Path to Presence

Number two, reduce the amount of distraction.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Reduce distraction. Is that the same as saying, like, increase presence?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Well, that is the benefit of it, yeah. If you want to increase your presence, you have to eliminate distractions. And that means eliminate how often you’re on your phone.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’ve got some thread here. Do you know why this is here?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Well, you explain.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So there’s a piece of very pretty red string, and this string is going to represent the connection between the two of us. Give you the end of it. What I just gave you is a piece of string, and it connects between your hand and my hand. And it’s taught right now. So this string right now represents the connection between us and conversation.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s tight.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s very tight. I’m going to ask questions throughout this that don’t think about how. What the right answer is. Just go with what your gut instinct of how it feels. So right now it’s tight. And if I look at you in the eye and I say, Steven, how’s it going, man?

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s going good.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah? Yeah. What was something that frustrated you yesterday?

STEVEN BARTLETT: My haircut didn’t go to plan.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Tell me about it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s just not. It’s not good. I don’t like it.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Do you find that some of the biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly with business or personal. Or tell me something. With business.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Struggles with business yesterday.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, go ahead.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Okay, so you’re on your phone now and the connection has been reduced.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. So I just pulled out my phone, and now I’m looking. And what did you feel in the line?

STEVEN BARTLETT: I felt like the tightness went. It went loose.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, it went slack. But that’s the physical. Emotionally. How did that feel?

STEVEN BARTLETT: It felt disrespectful.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. And see, if I just both had both hands on it like this. Now let’s put it taut again. And I’m talking to you, and I say, so what’s. What are you looking forward to this weekend?

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’m looking forward to.

JEFFERSON FISHER: No, go ahead. And this is me. Just turn. It’s still tight. Don’t worry. I still am connected to, you know. Don’t worry about it. I’m right here. Go ahead. Yeah, exactly. You see how all of a sudden you wanted to let go now?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: For anybody listening. So we both had it tight. I look at my phone while still holding it tight, where I’m saying, no, no, I’m listening. Go. Go right ahead. And all of a sudden, you are the one that let go of the line.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Isn’t that something? Because all of a sudden you gave up on the conversation. You didn’t want to be in it anymore. What do you typically do if somebody’s at dinner with you and they pull out their phone?

STEVEN BARTLETT: I mean, you look away. Or you can speak to someone else.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Or you pull out your phone.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s like they’ve given you permission to now pick up their phone. Somebody gets on theirs, and you don’t want to look awkward or odd. So what you normally get out years. The next thing you know, both of you are on your phones. At dinner, we were supposed to be communicating with each other, and you’re just staring at your phone. I think.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I sometimes think this with me being an interview, having this iPad in front of me. I’m like, should I get rid of the iPad? Maybe I should. Because I write things down while someone’s speaking to me. And I do worry sometimes that if I’m, like, looking at a particular point or fact or whatever, that I’m.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s a little bit different. So there’s a part of this that is. It’s a production. We have cameras, we have lights. Like, this isn’t a normal. Just. If you and I were having coffee, but let’s say you and I were having lunch and I’m talking like this to you, and I put my phone right here. Do you feel a difference?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah, I do.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Do you feel I’m more connected or less connected? Yeah. And if I.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Links to priorities, not the priority.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Do you feel any different if I flip it over?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yes, I do.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And my face is down.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yes, I do. And it’s a signal of that. You think this is more important and you don’t want to be distracted.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Imagine what would you feel like if you were on a date or got together with a friend and you just said, hey, where’s your phone? He said, oh, I just left it in the car. I just wanted to sit with you.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yes. Incredible.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Does anybody do that?

STEVEN BARTLETT: No.

JEFFERSON FISHER: No. Nobody does that. But imagine. Imagine if right now there was. Let’s say, a woman is about to go on a date, and she asked the guy, where’s your phone? And he goes, oh, I left it in the. Left it in the car. I mean, what kind of. What?

STEVEN BARTLETT: He was kind of weird.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Almost like, what, you mean you want to be solely interested in me? I’m signaling that there is nothing else more important than what’s going on right here.

STEVEN BARTLETT: That’s such atypical behavior. Some people might see it as a red flag.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s probably true. But if I have right here, even if I put it face down on the table and I’m talking to you, I’m at least still having my world, my business, my stress, my chaos. It’s my. It’s my pacifier. You know, you’re not going to take away my blanket, are you?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And so I still. It’s still there in the conversation with us. So even if I put it down or I put it between my legs or I put it in my pocket, which I think is much better of not letting it come out at all, but it’s. What’s the strength of the connection? Because we’ve all been that person. Like, we just showed with the string where they get out their phone while you’re talking, and they’re like, mm, yeah, yeah, right. Go ahead and you go, I don’t want this. Yeah, you let go. Because it’s like, this isn’t real. This isn’t real connection. So if you want to be a better communicator, you have to understand the definition of true connection. It’s keeping it taught.

The Phone-Free Date: A Radical Act

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’m so shocked when I go to restaurants with my girlfriend because we have a rule, and this is actually a rule that I completely agreed with.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Which is like, when we go on a date or we go to a restaurant, there’s no phones.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly.

STEVEN BARTLETT: We’re not going to be on our phones in a restaurant.

JEFFERSON FISHER: It’s mind blowing.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Mind blowing.

JEFFERSON FISHER: We went to. When we were. We’ve been here all this week, and we went to a restaurant, Sierra and I, and I saw so many couples and people and friends that were just at the table, and it was. It was dark evening, and all you see is the glow of phones. Just everybody just sitting there on their phone. It’s just. It’s crazy to me. Or the people that are on their couch with the TV on, and both of them are on their phones and they’re supposed to be watching a movie together.

STEVEN BARTLETT: You know, everyone. People watches a little bit.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’m not going to pretend we don’t.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, this is. That. I’m not going to do that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah. But we will be in a restaurant, and we just sometimes play a little game where we kind of guess how long people have been together based on how they’re behaving.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, I like that. Yeah, that’s fun.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And so it tends to be the case that it’s the younger couples where there’s a man and a woman and they’re both on their phone, and I just can’t believe what I’m seeing. Yeah, it’s pretty wild. I got my phone a lot. But if I’m on a date, I am not going to be sat there looking at a screen while she sat there looking on a screen just in total silence. Even if I’ve known this woman for 35 years.

Stop Over-Explaining

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, it’s become so much of an emotional pacifier. When I don’t like the angst of having to wait in line by myself. I don’t like having to sit on the subway or the tube or the metro or whatever by myself. I get out my phone. It prevents me from having to have dialogue. So instead I’d rather just look at my phone and watch and scroll. Versus communicating.

Imagine waiting for your haircut and everybody in the room is actually talking to one another like they used to and they’d just be wild to you. Everybody in a doctor’s office, in the waiting room, everybody’s looking at their phone. So yeah, to me it’s such a distraction. And that means even at the house too. I think even more so when it comes to the house.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So that was point number two, which was reducing distraction and therefore increasing presence.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Three. Stop over explaining. You have to invest in the right words. Meaning if you are constantly just gushing words the whole time, does it make you want to listen to that person? More or less?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh yeah. I mean you just kind of discount it.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah. All of a sudden it’s kind of like the story about the boy who cried wolf. Like you talk so much that the message gets lost. If I’m always talking a lot, it’s easy to tune it out. It’s like it becomes its own static. But if you choose your words, if I’m going to slow down.

So how do you stop yourself from over explaining? Instead of being a waterfall, be a well meaning. Rather than trying to gush out information, get them swept away in your message. You have a confidence in holding your knowledge. If they have a question they’ll ask, you’re available for the question should they want to ask. I’m going to give you always exactly what you need. If I choose to be a will with my information rather than just gushing. Because when I over explain, all somebody’s doing is indicating that I don’t really know if I believe what I’m saying or you believe what I’m saying, so I need to say more.

The Power of Taking a Moment

STEVEN BARTLETT: I notice there’s such power in when someone asks you a question, taking a moment to think. And actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say let me just think about that. And the minute they do that, I am immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I’m now actually at bated breath to think about, to hear this very thoughtful, considered thing they’re about to share with me.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite. The minute they’re asked anything, it’s just like the floodgates open. And they start filling the silence with, and they start thinking out loud.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. They’re external thinkers. What I teach is let your first word be your breath. Meaning when you put a breath where the first word should be, everything else flows. If I start gushing, what I’m signaling is, you know, I don’t. Most people wait until they’re talking to figure out what they want to say.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And so they say, “Well, what I mean to say is,” “Well, I say all that to say,” because they’re still trying to figure it out. But if you were to ask me a really hard question, and rather than having that knee jerk reaction, I go, “That’s a good question. Let me think.” Then you’re going to be, you’re going to be in it. You’re going to know whatever is about to come out has actually been thought about, is actually going to be something you want to listen to now. You’re going to be more curious. Now you wait with bated breath of what’s going to happen.

So when you think of business meetings, the person who goes, “Oh, actually, you know, I disagree with that. If you look at our latest studies,” and they just start versus when somebody asks, “Stephen, what do you think?” And you go, and you just hold that silence. It’s like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to hear what you said. People who are confident, they don’t have to say something to show they know something. They choose their moment, they choose their timing.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It appears they’re also the people that are most likely to turn around and say, “I don’t have the answer to that.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yep. People who are truly confident know they don’t always have to get it right. They know that they will get it wrong. Confident people. Confidence does not mean you have to know all the answers. Confidence means you know that you don’t. When you have the confidence of knowing I don’t know everything, all of a sudden you sound a lot more real.

Taking Up Space and Time

STEVEN BARTLETT: There’s also something about you just being the type of person that’s willing to sit in silence but also just take up more space and time. That signals respect. The very fact that you would have the audacity to say, someone asks me a question and I go, “Let me just think about that for a second.” It means that I’m not, you talked about rushing earlier. I don’t rush. And there’s something about quite aura about that, about the fact that you’re not the type of person. You’re the type of person that can just take seven seconds, right? Because you are, you’re kind of stealing seven seconds from everyone there, right? So that you can think.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And you would think that the harder the issue, the more time that is.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Necessary, you would think.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And instead everybody’s equated it to immediate. I think when let’s say we’re on a ship and we’re in the middle of a storm, who’s the person that they all look to to say, “I’m freaking out, I’m scared.” But the captain isn’t. You know, this person knows. He, she knows. And we’re constantly looking for that person.

In times of emotional stress, we’re wanting someone to, I’m too anxious, but I can go to this person. Because in times of crisis, they say, you walk, don’t run. You know, when I act like I’ve been there before and I’ve seen this, I’m telling everybody else, “Oh, well, well, if he’s not worried, I shouldn’t be worried. If he’s not upset, I don’t have to be upset.”

A lot of doctors, a lot of professionals that deal with conflict and crisis management, it’s their job to be as calm as could be. Because if they reacted in a way that set you off or set you on edge, well, then there’s no anchor and then it’s a bad place to be. But yeah, just having that, “Let me think about that for a second,” has a different tune of, “Oh, wow, this person, they know who they are. I don’t rush. That’s just not what I do.”

The Flight Attendant Test

STEVEN BARTLETT: It reminds me of every time I’ve had turbulence on a plane and I’ve looked at the flight attendant to see if this thing is going down.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s so good. Yes, I’ve done that. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve done that where I’m looking at the hostess, like, just walking, still passing out snacks and not bothering. I’m like, “Okay, if he’s not bothered, I’m.” We do that in conversation every day. We’re looking for the calm flight attendants. We’re looking for the anchors, the captains, the people who in times of stress and turbulence in our life, we can look to and say if they’re okay and if they’re good, then I’m, then I can be good. And when you can be that person for others, you’re a leader. Yeah, always.

STEVEN BARTLETT: You are the leader. This is probably the defining trait of, I think, people that I have employed over the years that I would consider a leader or not a leader is how different they are when shit has hit the fan.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And if there is seemingly no difference in the way they’re conducting themselves. Leader, emotional regulator, they bring the temperature down, and then you have the inverse, where the minute, any kind of sign of trouble, there’s stress, there’s overwhelm, and it’s contagious. And what they need is the calm flight attendant to regulate them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So I think, and people, I think, who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think about this. Like, how do you show up when things are hard? I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver, who, when I employed him, must have been seven, eight years ago. Okay. He wasn’t my friend when I hired him. But the defining trait of Oliver was.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That.

STEVEN BARTLETT: He would deliver me good and bad news. The same.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: With the same sort of nonchalant calm demeanor. So he’d walk up to me and say, “You know, we’ve just signed Uber across America. We’re going to be there. Da, da, da.” And then the days where everything was on fire, he’d walk up to me, “Stephen, can I have a chat?” I’d say, “Yeah, yeah, cool.” He’d say, “Just so you know.” And then he’d deliver some of the worst shit I’ve ever heard in my entire life. But he’d do it in such a calm way that I both, I was calm, and I thought he had it under control.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I remember always thinking, I need to put more people under this guy because he’s going to bring us down. And so I just think, as employees, I wouldn’t have known that my boss or my employer is thinking this unless someone had said it to me. They’re watching how I deal with things when shit hits the fan.

JEFFERSON FISHER: They’re always watching.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And always.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I mean, you take people that are watching you and your team. You have a large team. When you are upset and anxious, everybody feels it. It spreads. But if you’re the one that’s calm, that spreads, too. And so it’s, and you have to get to the situation where if you’re upset, then people know it’s something to be upset about.

If I had a friend in college, he was upset about everything. I mean, he just was a hothead. He get upset about the smallest things. How can you possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing if you’re always having the same level of reaction. But if you have a calmness and let’s say then you have an explosion because it happens because you’re human, that’s when people know this is something serious. Because if you always operate at a 10, nobody’s going to appreciate it when it’s really in 11.

Protecting the Standard

STEVEN BARTLETT: When you think about military generals and leaders, they also have this other side to them, which is they do also protect the standard. And I think there’s a balance that’s almost needed here between being nonchalant in those moments where something bad’s happened, we can’t control it now, and then how you defend the standard.

So, like you watch the military barracks or whatever when they’re going through training, these leaders are like screaming at them about the standards, about the buttons, about iron your shirt, make your boots clean. And so it appears on one end that they are petty about something and they are emote, you know, they are. These leaders are emotional, you know, football, football managers.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Or sporting managers.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. They.

STEVEN BARTLETT: They almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy, which is like knowing when to be controlled and then knowing when to be emotionally, seemingly emotionally irrational about something.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. And I think those in those specific situations are also part of a system. You know, this is a system that they’ve seen produce the outcome that they want. So they know that there’s a utility to having that big reaction or there’s a purpose behind it.

What I find is the negative is when you have people who, there’s not a utility. They just, they don’t have the words. The leaders who, let’s say, curse a lot because they don’t really have the vocabulary, you know, they, they would rather have big emotional reactions. But when you have that type of language that is not going to show that you’re in control of your emotions. You’re just less believable.

Handling Sadness and Grief

STEVEN BARTLETT: So that was number three.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Stop over explaining yourself.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: The second one was reducing distractions and the first was authenticity.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Number four, know how to deal with their sadness. A lot of people are hurting that you don’t know are hurting. And a lot of people are grieving that you don’t know are grieving. Whether it’s the holidays, whether it’s an important date or event that you don’t know about in their life and they’re hurting and grieving. If you really want to be a top level communicator, you need to know not to say not only when the times are good, but also when the times are bad.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And how does one be there for someone when they’re going through their moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. When somebody is grieving, what you do not do is begin with “let me know if.” What you are about to say begins with “let me know if,” it’s the wrong thing to say. “Let me know if you need anything, let me know if I can do anything for you. Just let me know. Anything you need, let me know.” All you’re doing is giving them a chore.

This person’s already grieving at this moment. They’re going through something, you don’t even know how to feel, and you’re now giving them a chore. They’re supposed to be on their own to have the ability to pull out their phone, text their need to you. That’s never going to happen. Have you ever had somebody who say, “let me know if you need anything,” actually let you know that they needed something?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Never.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Never. Because you’ve now made it more comfortable on you and now more of an obligation on them. And we go, “well, you know what? I said all I need to say, let me know if you need anything. Let me know how I can help.” Right? When all you’ve done is just given them an obligation, you’ve burdened it even more.

Of course they don’t want to burden you. They don’t even want to live in some of these moments. They don’t want to exist. They don’t know how to do it. And saying “let me know if” isn’t going to help them.

Instead, here’s what you do when somebody’s grieving. You do the thing. Whenever you thought about doing, go do it. If you wanted to bring them dinner or said, “let me know if you need any food,” just go get them food. Go do the task. Go run the errand. Go show up and do their laundry. Go mow their yard for them. Go do the thing. If I really want you to be there for me and you really want to be there for the other person, you don’t have to ask. You just go do.

Second of all, I find a lot of time people who are with somebody who’s grieving, they don’t know what to say. They want to say something. Like, I want to say something, but I don’t really know what to say.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I feel uncomfortable.

JEFFERSON FISHER: What I say is not going to be enough. And so they just stare at their phone and they kind of takes out a sentence and they delete it because they don’t really know what to say. The best thing to say is just to validate how you would assume it’s going to be feeling for them.

“Nobody deserves what happened. This is totally unfair. I can’t believe that this happened. Nobody deserves this.” Be able to express and confirm that what they’re feeling is exactly what they should be feeling.

Don’t go in with the “at least they’re in a better place. Hey, you know what? Everything happens for a reason.” That’s not the right time to say that, if ever, to be able to try and make them feel better of, “oh, you know, I just, at least they’re, you know, not.” Is there anything I can do, any of that kind of stuff. It’s like, yeah, I know what you can do. You can bring that person back. That’s what you can do. But that’s not going to happen. You can’t do that.

And so you catch yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest. Like how many times people say, “you’re in our thoughts, you’re in my thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers, you know, praying for you.” And they haven’t once sent up a prayer, right? They’re just saying it.

If you really mean it, text out the prayer to them. Text the prayer. “Dear God, I just ask that you be with Steven right now.” Send the prayer to them. Why not encourage them in that versus just saying, “hey, just keeping you in my thoughts.” If you are, then text them “thinking about you. No need to respond.” You think just putting it in a Facebook comment is going to do enough? “Just in our prayers?” That’s not connection and that’s not authentic. That’s the easy shortcut.

The Power of Specific Support

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think I’ve spent my whole life struggling with those moments where something bad has happened to someone or they’ve been through something and yeah, you found out over text message and you don’t know what to say. You’re like, “I’m so sorry.” And the amount of times I’ve written something and then deleted it and written something and deleted it.

And I actually got some feedback from Samir, who is a very well known YouTuber creator and he’s part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir. Their house burnt down in the Palisades fire. And I’d say, what, four, five, six months later, he came up to me in New York and said thank you for the message you sent me because it was specific.

And I know there’s a, we have a clip of it because we were recording at the time. We were, I’d just come off stage and he was at his event in New York and he’d come up to me and said it. And it always stayed with me that he remembered six months later. I didn’t even really remember the message I sent. He remembered six months later that when his house had burned down, they both just had, I think they both had like less than one year old kids and both of the houses had burnt down.

I sent him something specific I could help him with. I can’t remember the details of what I said, but he came up and said thank you for sending me something. Lots of people sent me messages, but I remember you sent me something specific.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That hits the theme of when you stop trying to be what’s most convenient to you and start doing what might be just a slightly little bit more uncomfortable, a little bit more work. The choice to do something different and be more specific in the thought to not just say “so sorry to hear.” Right. That’s injustice. I mean that doesn’t even touch it.

But if you were to say what is happening is totally unfair. Agree with it, be specific with it. Same thing with, it’s the same with compliments. The more specific it is, the more genuine it is. The person that you remember the longest is the person who’s able to be right there with you and say exactly what you’re feeling in that moment.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And make a genuine offer to support, a real.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And also as you said at the start, not an offer that they have to accept because no one accepts them.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Or make it a condition that they have to reach out to you in order to you consider giving it instead of just doing it. Or even when you feel that like I don’t really know what to say but I’m, you know what, if I were them, this is what I’d want and go do the thing. Otherwise, don’t say it if you don’t mean it.

I mean that’s just the, to me that’s a sign of you’re not their person because there’s so many people that are just fair weather friends that they want to be there and be part of the success. But when your face is on the floor and you’re at rock bottom, the people you’ll remember are the people that show up.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Amen. I’ve heard that so many times from my guests on this podcast where they talk about their hardest moment and it’s always who showed up in that moment.

Handling Insults and Hurtful Words

JEFFERSON FISHER: That number five. If you want to be a better communicator, you have to know how to handle the insults, the backbiting, the dismissive, the belittling, the patronizing, the words that people use to try and inflict pain.

STEVEN BARTLETT: What do I do?

JEFFERSON FISHER: If you want to handle somebody who’s trying to hurt you with their words, the first thing you have to do is have a bunch of silence where it’s five to seven seconds of nothing. Make it enough to where it’s uncomfortable, where they know this is not going to be fun.

Number two is you ask them to repeat it. “I need you to say that again. I need you to repeat that.” Most of the time, people can’t do it.

And number three, if I need to, I ask them, “did you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound upsetting?” And what it does is allow you to be able to operate in a way that doesn’t allow their words to hurt you or to touch you or they cut you.

Whenever somebody is saying something that’s to belittle you or insult you, they’re putting a big spotlight on themselves, and they’re hoping to throw it onto you to get your reaction. So they’re going to, I’m going to say something hurtful to you. And then it’s like they’re turning the spotlight right to you.

And then when you ask a question, when you have just silence, it allows their words to kind of echo back to them. And a lot of people will, before they even have to say anything, they’ll go, “I shouldn’t have said that.” The more silence you have, the more awkward it becomes. And they kind of have to take it back. They realize you didn’t take the bait.

But when you put the spotlight and you ask the question, “do you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to sound hurtful?” They can’t bear the thought of saying yes to that, so they have to tweak it. They have to fix it. They have to go, “oh, no, no, no. I mean, what, I mean, what I meant to say was.” And they go a different way.

Now, if they were to double down and say, “yes, that’s exactly what I meant,” you could decide. Thank you for letting me know.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I was thinking about the neuroscience of what’s going on there.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

Understanding Cognitive Dissonance in Communication

STEVEN BARTLETT: When you get someone to admit that they’re hurtful. I remember interviewing some neuroscientists who talked about this idea of cognitive dissonance, which is where we all have a perception of who we are. And I guess by what you’re doing there, you’re creating the cognitive dissonance, which is the cognitive mental discomfort by making me kind of look in the mirror at who I just acted like. I don’t think I’m a hurtful person. If I say something super hurtful, and then you ask me if I meant to be hurtful, you’re immediately speaking to my identity. And I don’t want. I’m not a hurtful person.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And that’s causing the dissonance, which is the sort of the disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And so I have to alleviate one of them. I have to make sense.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Nobody believes they’re on the side of bad. They always think they’re in the side of good.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So you, by you saying that to me, I immediately have to confirm.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: That I am a person who’s intent on hurting others.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: That’s not at all what I want to do. I just wanted to gaslight you a little bit.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And so at that moment, it’s what they’re thinking and feeling is I want you to hurt like I’m hurting. I want you. I want to feel the control. Because I don’t have a sense of control now. I’m feeling a certain way. I’m upset. So if I can make you upset, well, then I can have. Now I can feel better and more justified about how I’m feeling.

And so some people will, especially the manipulative ones, they’ll be upset, say something to make you upset, and then turn around and go, I don’t know why you’re so upset. I’m fine. I’m just fine. I don’t know why you’re. You’re so upset. And because they’ve just left you in it now. Now they. All they’ve done is just pass it on to you. I don’t like this feeling. So now I’m going to give it to you and I’m totally good. What are you talking about?

The Power of Staying Calm During Confrontation

STEVEN BARTLETT: I had a situation in a gym a long time ago where I was on a machine and a guy, he said that these machines were his, so he wanted to use them all. And he just came up to me. This was a long, long time ago. And he was so, like, out of pocket, like, he was. You talked about being in the pocket. Super emotional. Within like 15 seconds, this sort of slightly older gentleman and basically, like, asked me if I wanted to have a fight. And it was so bizarre to me that I felt like an observer. And I genuinely.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Anybody else seen this?

STEVEN BARTLETT: No, it was me and him in the gym. And I was so. I was. I felt like David Attenborough. I was just like. And I did. And I inadvertently did what you said, which is. My tone didn’t change at all. I spoke to him like this. Did you just ask me for a fight in the gym. And then the more because I asked genuinely, like, genuine curious questions and it immediately disarmed him.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yes.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Don’t do that to strangers in the gym.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, but that’s what it is. It’s.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Are you okay?

JEFFERSON FISHER: You know, it’s, you know, having to, like, have to take on them for a second. Because most of the time when you’re hearing them yell and say ugly things, what they’re truly signaling is, I’m not okay. It’s. There’s always something else that’s going on. I’ve done it before where somebody said something hurtful and I said, how did you expect me to respond to that? Or how were you wanting me to respond to that? Or how did you think I was going to respond?

And it’s. I’ve never had it where they go, well, I expected you to say an insult. Like, it’s always them backpedaling and then trying to explain how they’re feeling in that moment because they don’t know how to do it. But if I can stop, put aside, like you did your frustration and say, are you asking me for a fight right now? You know, is that what you’re really asking for? That kind of, are you okay? Kind of thing. That’ll. All of a sudden, your frustration now goes away.

STEVEN BARTLETT: You’ve changed the frame completely.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Absolutely.

Curiosity Over Aggression

STEVEN BARTLETT: Because the frame they wanted was aggression. Maybe that’s the language or the frame that they know as the way to solve problems. But yours was like, in that scenario, change to curiosity, which was like, how did that.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Anytime you actually have a mindset of. Instead of having something. Well, don’t have something to prove. Have something to learn. And so in that moment, you could have easily tried to prove something. Who do you think you’re talking to? Do you know what I. You could have played that car. Instead, you actually got curious of what’s going on here. Are you asking me for. Questions are powerful that way.

Questions are disarming for somebody who’s trying to be aggressive with you because they’re not looking for that type of mirror. They don’t want a mirror. They don’t want to see the ugly that they’re putting out there. But anytime somebody has that very aggressive. I have so many people who go, somebody said this to me and was so ugly and said this horrible thing, and they’re looking for a quick comeback, which I can give it to them. But if they really care about the relationship, I say, okay. I assume they set it at normal volume. What’s their need, like, what are they. What are they really feeling? Because if you just respond to the reaction, you’re. You’re not going to hear the end of it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And we all have triggers.

Three Keys to Better Personal Relationships

JEFFERSON FISHER: Same. I definitely have mine. I can’t. I can’t. I can’t say anything. I’ll tell you one of the biggest things that has helped me too, in any, any. If anybody’s wanting to improve their personal relationships with a partner or anything, it’s one is understanding. Validate first. Frustration comes next. If I respond first with frustration, I’m going to lose every time.

So it’s validating. It’s saying, of course you feel this way. It totally makes sense. I can see how you feel that way, acknowledging that it’s okay for them to feel that way. Otherwise the partner is going to feel like I’m being too much. And if I’m being too much, then you’re going to leave. Right. It’s the. It’s the same sense of abandonment. So if I can hit that, you’re not being too much. I have the capacity in the. I can be elastic in this relationship because I’m not going to be my best self all the time too. But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy, then you’re actually not going to have that relationship.

Number two, it’s understanding that resets is your UNO wildcard. Asking for a reset. If I were to say, you know what? I didn’t say that, right? You know what? Can I try that again? I didn’t say that the best way, did I? You know, I could have done that better. As soon as I start and ask for a reset, I’ve never had anybody told me, no, nobody goes, no, no, you have to stick with it right now. Go ahead, keep failing. Like we in a video game. We wouldn’t. Why would you keep playing if you knew you were ultimately going to lose? It’s. You restart, you try again. And so giving yourself the grace and the other person the grace to have the ability to start over again is a necessary part of communicating and relationships.

And three is slice it thinner. A lot of the times, if we’re having a big conversation, somebody might bring up the past, that past thing, and we just kind of add it on and climb it on when we start to kind of feel hopeless about it. But if I can slice each issue by itself and say, I do want to talk about this, I want to address what’s in front of us first, that makes everything go a whole lot better. But if I can slice each part and see the need and validate that. I’ve always seen that go better.

The Power of Expressing Your Capacity

STEVEN BARTLETT: And on that first point about how you engage with your partner during conflict, one of the most useful things I heard recently was a clip I actually saw of Brené Brown talking about when she comes home after, like, a long day.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: She will tell her partner how much she has in the tank.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So good.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And so she’ll turn to her partner and say, listen, I’ve got 10%. I can’t do this today.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I remember getting the clip and sending it to my partner because it’s those. That’s some of the vocabulary that probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships, which is just first expressing where I’m operating from.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So good.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And I don’t think anybody is going to be on the receiving end of, honestly, I’ve got like 10% in the tank today and go, no, I want to do this now.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Exactly. Well, using percentages in conversation is incredibly helpful, both in relationships. Like Brené mentioned of saying, you know what? I got 10%, you got 40%. Let’s put it together and we’re going to make it work. But I at least know where you’re coming from.

Same thing at work. I’ve seen. What I encourage is when people are in a meeting and they kind of put out an idea, right. Rather than going, what if? Because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it. You know, they start pointing arrows at it because it’s. Because it wasn’t their idea, so we need to take it down. But if they come out and say, Look, I got 30% of an idea, then what happens magically is that everybody else wants to join in.

So if I were to say, look, Steve, I got 20% of an idea. I need your help with the other 80, all of a sudden you take it as a, oh, me, I can do that. And then everybody else starts to build it up rather than trying to tear it down. Or even if in conversation, if I say, look, I know I’m not going to have the right words. I’m going to have about 60% of it. Like, that at least is me confirming that I know what I’m saying is not going to always be the right thing to say.

Marriage Is Never 50/50

STEVEN BARTLETT: I wish I did that more. This is. I believe this is the guy I’m talking about. It was Tim Ferriss.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

JEFFERSON FISHER: Everyone says marriage should be 50, 50.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s the biggest crock of bullsh*t I’ve ever heard. It’s never 50, 50 ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he’ll be like, I got 20, just in terms of energy, just energy, investment, kindness, patience.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m out at 20, and I’ll be.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, I’ll cover you. I got you, brother. Like, I’ll pull the 80. Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick, and I’ll say, I’ve got 10. And Steve, like two days ago said.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m riding a solid 25.

STEVEN BARTLETT: So we know that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than 100 combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I love that.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Because the thing is, marriage is not something that’s 50.

STEVEN BARTLETT: 50. A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don’t hurt each other.

JEFFERSON FISHER: So good.

STEVEN BARTLETT: That’s the mistake I’ve made multiple times. Oh, I try and solve big problems with.

JEFFERSON FISHER: That’s the mistake we make every day.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

Managing Conflict in Relationships

JEFFERSON FISHER: I mean, for me and Sierra and I, it’s usually if we’re in a part of an argument. Typically arguments end pretty quickly, but the ones that go long, it’s sometimes, you know, I just don’t feel like it. You know, I could give an apology. You could give an apology. And so I just don’t feel it. I don’t feel like being sorry right now. I will later, but in the moment, I’m just—I just got this stuff in me and I’m not ready yet.

And so what happens for me, what’s been so helpful is when I’m aggravated at that edge and I don’t want to give a thing is to say my battery’s in the red. Like we say “in the red” because of iPhone. It’s like once I know I’m in that place, we know the timeout because otherwise you’d be two hours in and you’re still—now you’ve just said way worse things, you know, that you’re going to apologize for.

And so often when the quicker you can get to a timeout, like, if you want to know how well a relationship communicates, look how often they take timeouts. Because timeouts are—I mean, they’re the amount of value you get in just a pause and then even five minutes coming back to it, you have a different—like, okay, here we go. Like a fresh, fresh start. Like, why would you leave somebody on the field for three hours and never give them a rest? And you think, I can’t—we do it physically, but I’m not going to do it mentally.

The Quality of Communication Equals the Quality of the Relationship

Like, if you want to know the key to the relationship, the metric that is the most valuable key to a relationship is that the measure, the quality of the conversation is equal to the quality of the relationship. Said differently, the quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the communication.

You look at all these couples that are divorcing. Okay. Are the couples that are in bad states. It’s because they were okay in the positive, but they don’t know how to deal with the negative. So it’s the measure of not just, can we talk about the happy stuff? I talk to these elderly couples that have been married for 50 years and I say, what’s your secret? It’s not, can you be happy in the happy? It’s how long can you sit with the hard. How long can you be in the sad times? Because those are going to happen.

And I see that so many with the people. There’s so many people who communicate with me or message or—and they’re going through a divorce or they have been divorced and you realize that it’s not often that they fell out of love, they fell out of communication. They stop talking to each other.

STEVEN BARTLETT: This is, I think, one of the great myths we’re sold when we get into our first relationship is we think that the sign of a good relationship is the lack of conflict. But if you’ve ever been in a long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that it’s not the amount of conflict. It’s like, it’s how one manages the conflict.

I read a quote, which I’ve never forgotten, which said, you can predict the long term health of a relationship by whether each cut heals to 101% or 99%, i.e. does your conflict make you stronger? And if I look back through the conflict that I’ve had with my partner that I’ve been with a long time now, I go, it has actually deepened the roots.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. It has to.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like, it’s been productive conflict.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Mm.

STEVEN BARTLETT: You know, which has made us stronger. And that in part is because of many of the things that you talk about, which is like trying not to win every argument.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Right.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And other things in your book.

Conflict as a Tool for Growth

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, that’s Sierra. That’s what Sierra talks about it. Either way, it’s good. Like, it’s the conflict. You want conflict in your relationship for the growth. It is rare that you can have individual growth alone. It has to be relational. It has to be with other people. I can read a book on how to do something, but until I do it, it’s a totally different game.

So I learn relationally with things and with other people and places. But for sure relationship, I mean, there’s just no—there’s no other way to go around it. You have to have the conflict if you want to be—if you want to be better.

And I’ve seen so many times where the people they’re facing their hands, they don’t know how to talk to one another because they gave up on trying to repair. But they’re all in on trying to blame. And so when you are trying to kind of undo what has to be done, that makes it all the more difficult because it’s just so many years where there could have been repair, but there hasn’t been repair. And in turn that really hurts the relationship.

I read a recent study that the biggest predictor of the child’s well-being within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced, it was how they dealt with conflict. I mean, because how many people have had parents that are still together but fight terribly.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh my God.

JEFFERSON FISHER: And in fact should probably maybe not be together.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Or those that they’re divorced but communicate great. Yeah. And they never put their child in the middle of it and didn’t use the child as a mail carrier between the two. To be able to do that is—I mean, you get to change the whole trajectory of a child’s life.

Forgiving Our Parents

STEVEN BARTLETT: At some point we have to forgive our parents. Right.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. That’s the truth.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Like you said, like they were, they were kids too, raised by parents that—

JEFFERSON FISHER: This is their first time still doing it.

The Next Conversation Workbook

STEVEN BARTLETT: You have a workbook on its way in March 10th called “The Next Conversation Workbook.”

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: “Practical Exercises for Arguing Less and Talking More,” which really takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into an actionable blueprint framework for people that really want to embed these habits into their lives. I’m going to link that below. Is that available for pre-order? Will it be?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah, it is.

STEVEN BARTLETT: There’ll be a pre-order link, so we’ll put that in the description below. You’re also working on some AI stuff which I think is interesting.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m about to release an AI of just my content. So it has my book, it has my podcasts, it has my—any of my social clips, it has it all. And so it’s a small language model to where everybody can have their own personal communication expert 24/7 kind of thing, this is what they have on it, but where people get to practice.

So what I love about it the most is let’s say you say I’m about to go into an important meeting and I want to sound really confident, what can I do? Or I’m about to have a—my spouse isn’t listening or really upset, what can I do? You apply those right in that moment and gives you a different way of perspecting, different way of seeing things from a different view.

Or what I definitely like is to tell it to be a boss, be my boss who’s really mean and arrogant and let’s do an exercise of how to respond to this situation. And you test is that response going to be the best response and allow it to kind of have a different way of practicing things that maybe you need to be ready for because some people need to be ready for the hard response.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I’ll link that below too. Yeah, you can have a play with that and sign up.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I’m excited.

Closing Question

STEVEN BARTLETT: We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question to the next question left for you is who are you most dying to meet and why?

JEFFERSON FISHER: Oh, that’s a great one.

Person I would love to meet right now is probably Brené Brown. That’s probably—

STEVEN BARTLETT: Oh really?

JEFFERSON FISHER: It really. The fact that you brought her up, the reason why is because I know that she’s been in this space for a long time and I feel that when she shares stuff it’s very genuine. Like there’s no guessing that she’s real. Yeah, she’s about as real and raw, as authentic as you can get. She’s also a Longhorn, Texas Longhorn fan, which I’m a fan of.

But I feel like when this is just me personally, I kind of got pushed into this field and you always look for people that are your own anchors in life of who you’d want to be a mentor kind of thing. And that’s somebody who’s—I feel like has been in the world and know some things and has just some incredible knowledge that’s helped a lot of people.

STEVEN BARTLETT: She’s most certainly authentic. She’s incredible.

JEFFERSON FISHER: Yeah.

Final Thoughts

STEVEN BARTLETT: Well, I listen, if people haven’t bought your book, which is almost nobody, but if there are still some people out there that haven’t bought this book, I highly recommend it. I think I included it in my the Boot Smith collection as well in the UK.

JEFFERSON FISHER: You did. Thank you so much.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Such a smash hit success. It’s a success on two dimensions. It’s sales and its impact. And it’s also incredibly accessible. So it’s not like a complicated science book. And it’s written for normal people that are going through very real, relatable, normal problems. And I think that’s why it’s been so successful.

I think you approach these challenges from a very real place. And maybe that’s in part why it’s been so wonderfully received and so relatable, is because, you know, you’re a trial attorney that’s bringing this stuff to the masses, but you’re not like a PhD scholar who might have thrown up the drawbridge because they spent all their life in academia.

And I think the way that you communicate is so relatable and resonant that it’s no wonder that you’re—you’ve been on an absolute unbelievable terror over the last couple of years. It’s phenomenal. Like crazy crazy incredible. So congratulations and thank you from all the people that you’ve given—

JEFFERSON FISHER: Thanks, man.

STEVEN BARTLETT: A little bit of light to a little bit of—you’ve empowered them with information so that they can live the life that they deserve to live. That’s a special thing, Jefferson.

JEFFERSON FISHER: I appreciate it. Thank you, Stu.

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