Khloé In Wonder Land: w/ Jen Atkin (Transcript)

I didn’t drink in high school. No one partied. It was very Ozzie and Harriet. Little House on the Prairie. We did not party.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Not what your photos show.

JEN ATKIN: Well, then, okay, I discovered gay men. And drugs. No, I’m just kidding. So I grew up kind of conservative, and we were very—when I think about the Mormon Church, I left it at 19 to come to LA with my best friend. But when I think about it, it gave me such strong morals. I really grew up doing volunteer service. You’re constantly working on yourself and your goals, and you’re just trying to put good into the world. So I do appreciate that part of it.

And I left the church. I left a boyfriend I was supposed to get married to. Had $300 in a Honda Civic hatchback and came to LA. My best friend, we slept on couches and I worked at a salon just to—I knew I wanted to do something creative. And I really, in high school, would cut my own hair and cut my friend’s hair, and I just didn’t even know it could actually be a career. But I was like, “That’s the only thing I really know how to do.”

And so I started out as a receptionist, a salon manager. Weirdly, Chris McMillan was a really big deal. He had done Jennifer Aniston’s haircut. He was the household name. But there were no women for me to really look up to. Sally Hershberger had a really big career, and I’d read about her in magazines. But I came here in 2000, so—oh, my God, it’s so long ago.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: That’s crazy. Almost 26 years ago.

JEN ATKIN: Pre-social media, you’d have to go into LA Magazine to see what the cool salons were to go to. So I would do that, and I would walk to those salons and try to get a job. And they were like, “You’re such a loser. Get out of here.”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: People don’t do that anymore.

JEN ATKIN: No, no. But call me a loser. Yeah. But I really just wanted to learn about the business of hair. And so I worked as a manager. I saw all these amazing creative stylists who—oh, my God. And at the time, I got to feed Bette Midler’s meter and Winona Ryder would come in. I met Jessica Alba back then, and I was just a kid, knew no one here. And I was like, “If this is all I do, I’m done. This is amazing. And I’ll go back to Utah and just live with my parents.”

And then I realized so many of these creatives were not super responsible with their money. That was the time of—I don’t know, LA was just bustling and it was so fun to go in. And so honestly, growing up, I never knew a Jewish person. I never knew a black person. I never knew a gay person.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: It’s very culture shock, little bubble.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah. So when I came to LA, I was like, “Oh, my God.” I learned so much about just people and cultures and art and music. I really feel like I got to wake up and was in my own skin finally. I got to just lose the judgment of other people and really dive into LA. It’s gone by so fast. I remember getting booked to assist people in the salon, and that was so exciting to me. I couldn’t afford hair school. I couldn’t afford—

The Path to Success

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So say, how did you—you’re so talented. How did you even know you can do the things you do?

JEN ATKIN: Well, I wasn’t talented. I studied people. I sat there and watched every salon haircutter and all the colorists. I had to watch everybody to see how they work.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So you don’t have a license and I’ve let you cut my hair this whole time?

JEN ATKIN: You’re going to love this story.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I’m scared.

JEN ATKIN: How we never talked about this. I just assumed you went to school.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I thought that you’d ask me any questions about myself over 13 years, and this is the first time. I’m terrified.

JEN ATKIN: So I couldn’t afford hair school. So I did an apprenticeship program at an adult occupational center downtown LA. You don’t know what that is, but it’s like, you go there and get a license to be a plumber. And they had a cosmetology program, so I would go and work in the salon three days a week. I would go to school the other days, and then I would work at night as a hostess.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Luna Park, where I met you.

JEN ATKIN: So many bartenders I hooked up with. Oh, my God. So fun. Sorry, we’re never going to get through this podcast.

So I went to this hair school adult occupational center, and I got my license that way by apprenticing. So I did get my license.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Oh, good.

JEN ATKIN: And then I started assisting really great stylists on set. And then I got booked to do all the dancers on Madonna’s tour.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: That’s major. That’s a major first.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah. That was the first time I was 26 and I got to go all over the world.

Family Reactions

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: But what did your parents think? Because your parents are Mormon still in Utah. And what did they think when their daughter is now leaving to go to scary California?

JEN ATKIN: I mean, so scared. Now as a mom, I can’t believe they let me go.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Were they mad that you stopped Mormonism?

JEN ATKIN: Yes. I mean, it’s a whole thing. Did you ever have Mormon friends?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No. I’ve learned about being Mormon really on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I don’t know much about it. I mean, I know when you would joke about Mormon stuff, but that would really be it. I never had a lot of Mormon stuff. Never did.

JEN ATKIN: Interesting. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing—the Mormon Church teaches you that if you’re not obedient and worthy of your temple recommend, which means there’s a lot of rules, that you will not live with your family for all time and eternity in the celestial kingdom.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: So there’s a little bit of pressure.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

The Early Days and Family Values

JEN ATKIN: So, you know, they were scared for sure. I think they thought I was going to either be a drug addict or a prostitute. And they didn’t understand that the world isn’t as scary as we think it is. I mean, it is now, but back—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Then, it was fun. No, seriously.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah. They were—I think they were also really proud of me. I’ve always had—I’m similar to you. Our dads were very similar. And we had to sign contracts very young. I always joke I was paying a mortgage, but at the time, I was 12. I always had a job. I always had a purpose.

I was always taught that, you know, the world didn’t owe me anything, that I needed to work for the things that I really wanted. And I hated my parents for that at times because I didn’t get the cute cars that my friends got. And, you know, it was hard in high school, but as an adult, I’m so grateful for it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I feel the same. All the things that my dad was so strict about or the bougie things—no, we didn’t. All of our friends had credit cards or allowances, and my dad was like, “An allowance for what? Go get a job, and that’s your allowance.”

And I didn’t understand it then. I love that he did that for us. We had to work all the time, and I loved it.

JEN ATKIN: And I also think—don’t you feel like you’ve been working forever? Like, I have been working since—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I was 16, 15, but it teaches you so much.

JEN ATKIN: So much. And I felt like adulthood didn’t shock me. I didn’t feel like—yeah, I felt like, oh, this is just my next step. This is my next purpose. This is my next thing to do.

And, I mean, but, Khloé, honestly, we work so hard and we’ve worked so hard for so long that it’s been a long time. It’s been a long time. But also, it’s the only way to get all these amazing blessings in your life.

Building a Brand from Scratch

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Totally. Yeah, at the time, there weren’t celebrity lines. There weren’t—it was still L’Oréal and Revlon. Do you know what I mean? That’s just the big powerhouse companies, and then you branch out and you have the idea, “I’m going to start my own hair product line.” What gave you that confidence to do that?

JEN ATKIN: I think besides me—well, it was you. I was the hands and you were the loud mouth. That’s why I have a career. I feel like we were all just in this moment of Instagram just kind of peaking because I met you in 2012, and that’s when Instagram came out.

That’s what I mean. You weren’t—you were famous, but you weren’t famous famous. What year did you start the show?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: 2007.

JEN ATKIN: Oh, shoot. You were more famous than I think you were.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay, I don’t care.

JEN ATKIN: Well, I—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You’ve never seen me for me.

JEN ATKIN: I’ve always just seen you for you.

JEN ATKIN: Instagram had just come out, and I feel like we were all kind of in this moment of learning how to use it for business and not just—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And at first, it definitely was like a Tumblr page. No one had—there was no influencers, there was no aesthetic pages. You just posted your cup. You posted this—not you. Anyone would post the strangest of things.

JEN ATKIN: Or we would post being at the beach on set, in the office for the day.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So stupid.

The Birth of a Digitally Connected Brand

JEN ATKIN: I think that part of me felt like, oh, my God, I’ve always loved marketing. Always. I’ve just been obsessed with the way that branding looks. I love—I’m such a pop culture junkie that I remember what Hello Kitty made me feel like. I remember the Gap back in the day. I remember just—I loved branding.

And so I felt at the time like I had no idea I was going to have a line. I mean, I started thinking of the idea in 2014 when I was really working with you. I don’t even know if you remember this. We were on set and we—I think you were doing interviews and I had a call with that team.

I think I was pitching them the idea of a digitally connected haircare brand. And I was so excited about it. I’m like, “It’s going to be the first of its kind where you really are talking to your customers.” And it hadn’t happened yet. Glossier had launched that same year.

And I was like, “I just think it’d be a really good idea.” And I remember being on the phone with him and you were telling me to hang up because he told me, “That’s a great idea. You’re not famous enough, and it’s not going to work. Call us back in five years.”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: See you, RIP.

JEN ATKIN: And literally, we beat them. We were on the same shelf within three years that they were, and we beat them in sales in probably five years. But I remember you telling me, you were like, “Hang up the phone.”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, yeah, I don’t let people talk to us like that.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah, sorry. But that really put fuel in my tank. I was like, “I’m going to prove them wrong.” And I felt like we were all in a position where—I mean, you guys. I say it all the time, and I won’t cry talking about it, but you guys were the first to ever, ever, ever shout out your glam team.

Breaking the Illusion

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes. We always get told that because no one would even acknowledge—you look this certain way, and you’re so done. But everyone wanted the perception of, “I woke up like this. This is how I just naturally—” So much glam. And you’re like, “Yeah, this is hours and hours of a facade, but it’s fun.”

JEN ATKIN: You know what is so crazy about that time? I feel like we were—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No.

JEN ATKIN: We were all growing our brands, but it didn’t feel like it. We were just kind of living and having so much fun and being on Snapchat and doing funny filters and just showing our life because it was just fun. It was like a journal.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: It was.

JEN ATKIN: And it was so innocent, too, back then.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And I appreciate the time it was, because now it’s like influencer overload. And everything that someone’s talking about, they’re being paid to talk about. Where when we were doing, you literally just did whatever you wanted. And if you were talking about something, you were just talking about it.

JEN ATKIN: Thank God we all had each other. Because I remember Jess Alba was doing Honest Company at the time. I remember my friend Emily Weiss was doing Glossier, and you guys were launching all of your companies. Oh, my God. How many amazing shoots did we do?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I mean, how many?

JEN ATKIN: But also, Kardashian dating.

Embracing Failure on the Path to Success

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I think it’s so important to say is because even close friends of mine are like, “All you guys do is all these successful things.” I’m like, “Do you know how many things we’ve done that have failed and tanked?” And you are a testament to—you’ve—how many shoots have we done?

Because we’ve done so much crap, and it maybe had a little momentum, and then it tanked. You have to kiss a bunch of frogs and then you find your prince, and that’s okay. We just do it on a larger scale.

JEN ATKIN: I mean—no, I’m going to shout you out. I’m interrupting you and shouting you out for this. Because I was there with you for a good seven years of you not only navigating your personal life that was complicated, helping everybody with all of their things, making sure everyone in your life was taken care of.

And you were traveling the world. We went all over the world together and you would just, no matter what was going on in your personal life, would show up with such light and grace and it was cuckoo. I was like, “How is this girl doing this?”

Traveling the World Together

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We were just young. I mean, Khloé, the energy we had. But speaking about that, we got to go to the best, craziest places. And I feel like even though we were working, Jen and I have such a good relationship.

We would—it’s before kids, it’s before any of that. So we had different energy, but we had so much fun in every place that we went. And we’ve literally gone everywhere.

JEN ATKIN: Australia, Dubai, London, Salisbury, Costa Rica. Yes. Oh my God, New York, a million times. Everywhere. Yeah, we had the best time. But I really feel like I got to see so many versions of you.

And what’s interesting is, you know, I would get a lot of—to be honest about being friends with my clients. It was looked down upon that I was being friends with my clients and I’m like, “I am with it.” We’ve spent so much time together, Khloé, and it’s so intimate, you know, being in someone’s house.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Outsiders.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah. People—I don’t understand. Yeah.

The Therapist-Client Bond of Glam

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Because how much—and when you get your glam done, whether, even if for someone to relate, if you’re just at the salon getting your nails done or your hair done, they always say your hairstylist is like your therapist. When I’m seeing you, it’s the most vulnerable time. You’re in your home, it’s like 5 a.m., you might have had a long night, your baby’s been crying, your husband did something, whatever. You’re the first person I see. I’m going to word vomit all this stuff.

JEN ATKIN: Oh my God. I had a transponder to your gate.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: To my gate. But that’s the connection and it’s so deep that of course you fall in love with your glam teams and you guys—people become such good friends. So I think people don’t know because they’re not in those intimate moments. But also we’re traveling together. We’re jet lagged together. It’s everything.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah. I think the relatable thing to everybody though is no matter what you’re doing and who you’re working with, be a good person and don’t be a user and just show up and protect the people you work with and don’t be catty and don’t be dramatic and don’t put whatever’s going on with your life—especially as a hairstylist, I have to say, I used to get so mad when people would come in and just dump on you and you had to be so front facing, forward facing and then you have to go and meet people.

I mean at the time you were—I don’t know how you did it, but you were meeting thousands of people and having one-on-one conversations and making every person feel seen and heard. And I was exhausted just watching you do it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And it was a different time.

JEN ATKIN: But when glam people would not be professional—

A Masterclass in Professional Transitions

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, speaking of professionalism, it’s always something. I totally get you. There’s evolutions and we all evolve and grow into different phases. When Jen worked with me, Jen was with me literally every day for seven years. Then she wanted to go and start Ouai.

And I’ll never forget how you handled this. You were like, “I’m going to leave and start Ouai.” When you talked to me about it and you said, “I’m going to train someone and leave you with someone. I’m not going to leave until I know you’re comfortable.” And I have never been treated with such respect.

And I will say professionalism, although you and I were so close and you did exactly that. I’ve been told from people, “Oh, I’ll make sure I do all this delicately” or “There’ll be a smooth transition.” And it’s never happened. And with you, I’ve always—you set me up for success. I want you to go and be successful and do your thing. And I’m supportive of you.

But also, can this be a win-win? I don’t want to be left high and dry, as silly as that is. But I still have to work too. And you did it—if anyone could teach a class in that. And I don’t get why more people don’t do that because it only makes that person cheer you on more and be like, “Yes.” I don’t know what makes you feel that you’re not being used. And it wasn’t just a stepping stone. And I will always respect you for how you handled that situation.

JEN ATKIN: How I handled that breakup.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah. It wasn’t a break.

JEN ATKIN: It was conscious uncoupling.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes.

JEN ATKIN: Before it existed.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes.

JEN ATKIN: You know what?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Wasn’t even a breakup.

JEN ATKIN: It was just a moment. My business was starting to take off. And I was like, “Oh, my God, I need to—I can’t do it all. I’m a shell of myself.” Pre-kids, by the way. And I remember feeling so guilty. I felt so much guilt for leaving this profession full time that had brought me so many blessings. And I was like, “How am I going to do this?”

And the crazy thing is, Khloé, it was the perfect time for me to step in and really nurture the brand to get it to where—and I had, at the time, 30 people who relied on me to not screw up and get cancelled. And they’re working really hard every day on this brand. And I was like, “I’ve got to do this.”

And I just felt in my heart, it was just the perfect timing. And you and I both have now collectively changed so many people’s lives. And you’ve seen these girls go from assistants to now amazing hairstylists and they have amazing careers, and they’ll have amazing things happening in their lives.

Loss, Fire, and Finding Light

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You’ve definitely paved the way for so many people. So Jen was tragically one of the people who lost her Malibu home in the Palisades fire. And how did that experience shape you? I remember speaking to you when it was happening.

JEN ATKIN: You offered for us to come and stay at your house.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay, well, that was ridiculous to me.

JEN ATKIN: You were that worried about me.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I don’t think I meant that.

JEN ATKIN: That experience goes in just the file of hard things that people go through—my dad dying. You know how horrible that is.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: I had a dog that we lost to a coyote tragically in front of me. And that was just painful. I’m such a dog person. I know I wasn’t, but I am.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: She wasn’t at all.

JEN ATKIN: And losing the house has given me just crazy empathy. It’s the only thing that I’ve gained from it is just empathy. I realized in that moment—you know, it’s been nine months, and I feel like I’m just starting to feel my own loss and our own loss of our home, because it’s been just such a heavy loss for everybody.

I also, in that moment, felt so held by our friends and our community and our neighbors, and we all were checking on one another. And my husband stayed behind with some of our neighbors to help evacuate elderly people in our community. And we never thought—I went to work that day, texted Mike and said, “Hey, there’s some smoke near Topanga.” 10 a.m. Never thought 8 p.m. our house would be gone.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Right.

JEN ATKIN: And I think, if anything, I feel like the best thing you could do and the best thing I could do is tell people to be prepared. I had a firebox. We had a fire scare two months prior. So 3 a.m., our power went out. Mike and I went around the house and gathered the letter from my dad, my grandma’s jewelry, anything that mattered to us, we put in this big box, and so we had it ready to go.

Signs from the Afterlife

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Something that I know—I’m really spiritual. I never know where you stand on that because you always go up and down. But when you went—so Jen also has, now it’s her main home, but at the time, it was her second home. She moved to Seattle.

And I remember seeing you on social and you were going through belongings and you thought your grandma’s jewelry got burned in the fire, and then you found it later in one of those boxes. Does that ignite your spirituality at all? Does that make you be like, “Oh, my gosh, these are signs. She made sure this was with me.” Because when I saw that, I got chills.

JEN ATKIN: I know it was so crazy. You’re in such fight or flight. And then as a mom, you’re like, “Okay, my kids have nothing right now. I need to get supplies.” And then people—I had so many people sending us just toys and food, and it was just very overwhelming.

And I remember maybe two months later, I was like, “Oh, my God, my grandma’s—” I had this other stack of jewelry. And I remember just being like, “I didn’t grab it.” And I didn’t think Mike was calling me and saying, “Babe, what else can I grab? Is there anything else?” And I did not think we were going to lose our house. I was like, “There’s no way at 2 p.m. when you’re evacuating that we’re going to lose this house.”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: So anyways, I went to the garage in Seattle. We got all of our things. We had one garage in Malibu that made it. It was random things in there, but there was a couple of boxes. So we were kind of going through and cleaning out all of this stuff. And there was a sunglass case, and I opened it up, and my grandma’s jewelry was in it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: How is that a coincidence? You have to believe there’s a deeper meaning.

JEN ATKIN: Oh my God, Khloé. You know, we all—I know it’s so cliche to be like after someone dies and there’s your little thing that you remember. You know, when I see a rainbow is so basic, but I grew up in Hawaii and my dad loved rainbows.

But there are so many moments like that where I fully feel like in the afterlife—and you have to understand the guilt I had leaving the Mormon church, thinking I’ll never be with my family ever again is so strong. But I’ve completely worked through all of that and I understand—whether it’s you’re just a part of the universe when you pass. Nobody knows, right? None of us know. But I do feel like my family energy protecting us all the time. I think about it a lot.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah, I love that. I’m such a faith-based person and I don’t know, I just—I don’t know how I would survive my days without just having that faith or that spirituality to lean on.

JEN ATKIN: I mean, who’s the first person that tells you to keep posting your Bible quotes?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You. I know.

JEN ATKIN: I love them. It makes me feel—and I need you to do it more. Because honestly, Khloé, I think the more information that we’re given through just our phones all day, every day, I just feel like the best thing we can do is show up and be a light. We need more of it. We need more people just taking care of each other.

And I will tell you, the fire taught me, know your neighbors, right? Get to know them on a personal level. I’d never had that in LA until we lived in Malibu. And it’s just something that’s so important to—we send little baskets for holidays to all of our neighbors just to, so they know our phone number, so they know our kids, what our dog looks like. It’s just really important to rely on your neighbors.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: It really is. Especially I think in places like LA where so many people don’t do that. I do think it is important to do that.

Raising Children and Spirituality

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What do you raise? Because Mike is Jewish, what do you raise your children with? Any belief system?

JEN ATKIN: So my husband is Jewish, and I was raised Mormon, so neither of us are super practicing. He doesn’t go to temple. I don’t think that our kids, to be honest, I’m going to take in the church of Dr. Becky. I feel like we’re going to navigate this and the way that we’re breaking emotional and generational trauma as we’re not gentle parenting.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Right.

JEN ATKIN: But we’re breaking a lot of the things that maybe we wish we wouldn’t have had passed on to us. And I think with religion, I kind of feel the same way. I want my kids to have a new version, a new form of spirituality.

And I was just thinking about this last night. I actually grew up praying with my grandparents. They prayed together every night on their knees every night, and just prayed for family members, prayed for if they read in the news that there was a fire or if there was an earthquake.

And I remember growing up around that and feeling so protected by that ritual, and I think I want to start doing that with the kids. And if it’s not to a certain God, it’s even just to the universe and saying a prayer for people. And I think it’ll teach them that we’re all just little ants on this planet. And I love that.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I think that’s a beautiful first step in you being saved.

The Bond of Sisterhood

JEN ATKIN: I’m really proud of us for getting through this, by the way, and not just completely tearing each other apart. We’re the kind of friends, by the way, that we’re sisters at this point where I can just say the worst thing to you and it makes you laugh.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Something about my mom’s party. Oh, my God. Jen and I were both really up.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And Jen was like, “Don’t hate you.”

JEN ATKIN: And I’m like, “I hate you.” We would be on set all the time, and people would look like, “Do they hate each other?”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You guys love.

JEN ATKIN: Find a friend that can just dish it and take it, because it is.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We are the best. Verbally assaulting one another. But we need to let it out somewhere and we know it’s safe. We’re not canceling each other, but we will.

JEN ATKIN: We’ve never gotten offended, either one of us.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Never. We’ll be like, “You’re so—”

JEN ATKIN: No. She would literally be like, “You’re acting so adopted.”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, it’s true sometimes.

JEN ATKIN: Do you remember your app? You would make me do the craziest things for that app.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, once you start working a lot, you don’t have a lot of friends, so you were one of my best friends.

JEN ATKIN: I was looking on your channel, by the way, because I really love your podcast. I’m not just saying I really do. And I don’t like podcasts, but I like yours.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I know. You’ve told me four times. Why the f* am I doing a podcast?

JEN ATKIN: And I was looking at videos that you’ve posted, and you have a thumbnail of you and I, and it says, “Who’s—”

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I think a thumbnail?

JEN ATKIN: “Guess who’s the best liar” with my face next to it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, it’s you.

JEN ATKIN: Thanks.

Hair, Barbies, and Nostalgia

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You are a great liar. Which era do you think had the best hair? I don’t need a big spiel about it.

JEN ATKIN: The ’70s. Because everyone had really big hair, really sexy dresses. Everyone is just selling sex in a really glamorous way. And also, everyone was on Quaaludes, so that’s my favorite era.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Win, win.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I don’t know why. When I thought ’70s, I was thinking ’80s. Because ’80s sucks.

JEN ATKIN: No, it was like Studio 54, Jerry Hall. Just really gorgeousness.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: How many Barbies do you have? I’m going all over.

JEN ATKIN: Something happened.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay.

JEN ATKIN: You know that my first child was Barbie Birkin.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Barbie Birkin.

JEN ATKIN: I love that Barbie.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No, this Barbie. So Jen had this Barbie, Barbie Birkin, her own Instagram account, everything. And no one knew who ran the Instagram account at the time.

JEN ATKIN: It was like, what was that one? That was Nori’s Black Book. It was like that.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: But you don’t want to pull back the curtain. I don’t want to know who the wizard is in the Wizard of Oz.

JEN ATKIN: Did you ever find out who that is?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes. We had a lunch with her on Keeping Up, and it’s sort of like—

JEN ATKIN: There’s nobody we know. No, you just thought it was me for a minute.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We called you and asked if it was you. We thought it was Jonathan or Joyce. We had so many people.

JEN ATKIN: That’s funny.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I mean, you’re witty enough for it to be.

JEN ATKIN: Well, thank you.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You are.

JEN ATKIN: You know, I have probably over 50 Barbies now, but in COVID, I really fell into a deep, dark place. I told you I loved branding. Okay. Barbie was the first thing I got kind of hooked on. I’m going to say a few things to you really quick. We have to switch gears. The Barbies. We’re going to talk about Ivar.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yep.

Bringing Back Club Culture

JEN ATKIN: We’re talking about Hyde. We’re going to talk about Natsu. Now we’re going to talk about the Mondrian. We’re going to talk about—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No.

JEN ATKIN: What? Cherry was that on Highland? No. La Brea. There was Club Carrie, you know, because Paris used to go all the time. Anyways, we were living in a city.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Oh, my.

JEN ATKIN: LAX. LAX. Joseph’s was Joseph’s. Wait, can I just say we needed to go off on the comments right now, because I need all the millennials who are watching your podcast to know or listening to it. We need to know who’s bringing club culture back to the millennial moms and dads who—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes. Well, at much earlier.

JEN ATKIN: It needs to start at 6. We’re home by 9.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: But I will check my phone at the door and I will throw down so hard.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I’ll be the—if it does start at 6, I’ll be the first one there.

JEN ATKIN: We need club culture back.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I know it’s not the same. It was so fun. But also, there was no phones.

JEN ATKIN: But even your mom’s party, by the way, I came to your mom’s party really because you said you were taking phones at the door.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: Do you know how many people actually—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Came because of that? So my mom had every name you could imagine in the phone book was at my mom’s party.

JEN ATKIN: Literally.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Literally. But so many people came because they knew there were no phones and people felt safe. They could put their guards down. And even just how connected people were because they weren’t that awkwardly texting when—

JEN ATKIN: It got a little quiet or showing pictures or just—it was so nice. People were making eye contact and having so much fun.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So nice.

JEN ATKIN: But we need club culture back. And I think you and I are the ones to do it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So you want us to open up a club?

JEN ATKIN: It’s going to be called Club Les Don’t.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay.

JEN ATKIN: And it’s going to start at 6.

Selfish Moments and Self-Care

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Tell me the last time you did something selfish just for fun. What a question.

JEN ATKIN: What have I done that’s selfish? Ooh. I was in Paris recently. This never happens. I was by myself in Paris for Oui. We did this huge activation. It was a dream come true.

And I got four hours to myself, and I was supposed to do some work, but I was like, you know, LA’s asleep. I’m going to go. And I went shopping, and I just shook myself on a little shopping spree and I went to the Row and I bought a bag, and I had just a fabulous afternoon. It was the best.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay, Kendall Jenner, she—

JEN ATKIN: I know. Well, Kendall let me wear the Row. Am I allowed? Yes.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Hear aloud. What is the most surprising note in your notes app right now? The most surprising.

JEN ATKIN: Honey, I am scared of your notes. Pictures of you.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Oh, my God.

JEN ATKIN: I was preparing for today, and I was trying to remember just all the things we’ve been through.

The Art of Preparation

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Jen is someone who’s the most prepared, even when it could be from going to work. She will show people. If you’re like, “I’m going to do an updo,” she’ll have 20 different updo images and she’ll show you. And you pick one, and Jen can actually recreate it, which is awesome.

But you are the most prepared in whatever you do. Even with brands with all of the stuff you do, if it’s someone else’s brand, you’re still like, “Wait, it—”

JEN ATKIN: Should look like this.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And you have photos.

JEN ATKIN: It’s wild.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I love it.

JEN ATKIN: Such a nerd, Khloé.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No, I love it.

JEN ATKIN: I love Google Docs. I love the notes app. I love Figma. I love, I just love being organized and prepared.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: If you think I know what Figma is, you’re crazy. What is your can’t live without glam product?

JEN ATKIN: I mean, here’s the thing. I do, I don’t really do hair anymore.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: For yourself.

JEN ATKIN: Oh, for myself, I would say—okay, I will tell you two things I can’t live without. I just launched this amazing dry shampoo foam that’s called Fresh Fluff, and it’s like a mousse, but you work it into your hair, and it makes your hair so clean and soft and amazing. I’m obsessed.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Why don’t you send that to me?

JEN ATKIN: I gave you something that’s coming out very soon. The double brush. The double travel brush. That is my new obsession.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: So my drawer hiding.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I show it. Please. Do you ever miss the chaos of early glam years?

JEN ATKIN: Or you have—wait, and there’s two. And there’s two cents. I’m good at what I do.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Holy.

Early Glam Days and Career Transitions

JEN ATKIN: And there’s two scents. We came out with Whey. We came out with Ibiza in Santorini. And I’m obsessed. We’ve worked on it for two years. We’re taking you on vacation. Baby, you left St. Barts. I love St. Barts but Santorini is to die for.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I love Santorini.

JEN ATKIN: No, Saint Barts is what you love. Oh, yeah, you love Santorini. I know you love Santorini. I’ve been obsessed with it. It’s insane. You keep asking me for more.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Didn’t you go to Santorini with us for filming?

JEN ATKIN: Oh, that wasn’t me.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Sorry. Wrong person. Do you ever miss the chaos of early glam? Or are you happy it slowed down?

JEN ATKIN: What do you mean? Being there early? Do I miss the commute to your house? Being at your house? Because you like to glam at 6am.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: The real thing is that Jen stopped working with me because Kendall got old enough and had her own house in Beverly Hills. So Jen was like, I’m going to lie and say I quit, but I’m really just going to move on with Kendall.

JEN ATKIN: But that’s all I’m saying is this. I hung up my scissors, and then Kendall moved to the city, and she’s like my little sister, and I had to take care of her.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Getting your scissors out.

JEN ATKIN: And then Kylie just got so famous that I couldn’t ignore her.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Exactly.

JEN ATKIN: You know what I mean? She had this brand. It was really taking off.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Right.

JEN ATKIN: So I could drive out here for her. But I’d wave at you when I passed your house.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You would? You know what? It’s fine. What is a song that takes you back to the early 2000s? Oh, my God. Wait, that came to you so quickly?

JEN ATKIN: Because I was just dancing to it at your mom’s party.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Oh, my God. Wow. You’re such a good singer.

Hair Trends and Regrets

What hair trend do you never want to come back? Crown braids. Literally.

JEN ATKIN: I did an Olsen-inspired crown braid on this in 2012. And it was so cute with your floral dress. And the b wouldn’t stop talking about it for five years.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You know how much I hated it?

JEN ATKIN: You were so mad.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, first of all, I wish I was as cool as the Olsen sisters. I was also much chubbier. This person, this girl in front of me gives me a crown braided boho chic. I’m not boho.

JEN ATKIN: I was like, I’m telling you what? You were on steroids at the time. Boho braids for me for life.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Okay.

JEN ATKIN: So I want it to never come back. We never have to talk about it again.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Jen thought she was so innovative and riveting. She put this Rita Hazan spray paint in the part of my hair which will plop up a picture.

JEN ATKIN: I’ll show you all the photos.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And it’s a blue line. And it was like you took a Sharpie and drew down my part. And I thought it was great, too.

JEN ATKIN: Because I wore it. And then in hindsight, we’re just trying things, babe. Do you understand how much pressure was on me?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We had—

JEN ATKIN: What was that website? Hollywood Life.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And we lived to be on it.

JEN ATKIN: And Hollywood Life would always shout out our glam. So we had pressure to bring something.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We were on it.

JEN ATKIN: It was like, you could vote.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We were just like, oh, we’ve made it.

JEN ATKIN: That was like, vote that. And Pink is the New Blog. If we were on that, we made it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What are you staring at over here?

JEN ATKIN: That one piece is driving me—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What is it?

JEN ATKIN: Can you see me staring at—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What do you mean?

JEN ATKIN: I’m not Stevie Wonder. Of course.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I’ve never seen anything like this.

JEN ATKIN: So sorry. It’s just distracting to me. I need it to be—it’s better now. You had one little hair that was literally—Khloé, it’s like, let me show you what it feels like to me. You’re talking, but the hair is just doing that. And it’s so distracting.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Wow. My next question is, are you type A or type B? But I think we know that answer, honey. Anyways, I’m close.

JEN ATKIN: CD is what I am.

Mane Addicts and Business Success

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What’s your favorite Mane product?

JEN ATKIN: Oh, hot round brush for sure. One is sold every seven seconds.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Shut up.

JEN ATKIN: Swear to God.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: The one that I tried.

JEN ATKIN: Crazy. That was a tool I wanted to make for the moms. The moms that are rushed, that are just starting to look at themselves again in the mirror.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You’re rich.

JEN ATKIN: Rich.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Honey, that’s amazing for you.

JEN ATKIN: That’s not true. I’m invested. Let’s just say that I love it. Yeah.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Wow.

JEN ATKIN: Well, being the hot round brush, baby.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: You could buy me.

JEN ATKIN: You can get it at Sephora.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No, it is a great brush because if I am literally not able to use even—I can’t brush my hair.

JEN ATKIN: Talk about me trying to show you how to do your hair a million times.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yeah.

JEN ATKIN: We have a video.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: We need to give them that video. So I was dating someone in Houston and I remember saying to Jen, I can’t bring glam, but who’s going to teach me how to curl my hair? Jen’s like, oh, my God, let’s film it. And when you’re in Houston, watch the video back. It is the most train wreck of a video.

JEN ATKIN: But what’s crazy is I’ve done that. I did it for Kourtney and her bangs two weeks ago. I’ve done it with Kendall. She’s FaceTimed me a million times to ask how to. They pick up on these things, and they do it.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I can’t. No, I—

JEN ATKIN: Student that just—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Just mentally doesn’t want to leave the mess. No, I can’t. And it’s curling. It’s not that—

JEN ATKIN: Khloé, you know how many people know how to curl their hair now? How many TikTok videos there are? It’s just—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And I don’t. I’ve literally tried to watch YouTube. I’m like, maybe it’s a Jen problem and you don’t know how to teach. Well, no, it’s not. I’ve gone on YouTube.

JEN ATKIN: I mean, I’ve taught you a million times.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No, I just can’t compute it. And then to know that you do it a different way each side, I’m—

JEN ATKIN: Remember, mine just keeps the butt of the cord facing up and just change hands, and you just handle it. Well, you look beautiful.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Well, I didn’t do my hair.

JEN ATKIN: Thank God you got a lot of people on speed dial.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: At least it’s job security. Yeah.

Memorable Moments and Personal Stories

JEN ATKIN: Remember when you used to wear pink latex?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I loved that, honey. Fun story.

JEN ATKIN: Yeah.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: That was my—my knuckles are all bloody because I punched Lamar minutes—well, probably hours before. That’s when—

JEN ATKIN: In this pap shot.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Yes, because that was Scott Disick’s birthday in Vegas. And I remember right before is when I went to say goodbye to what I thought was Lamar that didn’t have a phone, and he’s recovering from his overdose, and I walk in on him doing naughty things, and so I swung on him and I punched him.

JEN ATKIN: Do you know what’s crazy? I can’t even watch that episode where you see him.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Oh, it’s wild.

JEN ATKIN: I can’t. I’ll never watch it. It’s just too hard.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I blacked out.

JEN ATKIN: Okay, that was your Mane Addicts exposure.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I’m going to say about this, the best I’ve ever looked.

JEN ATKIN: Khloé motherf*ing Kardashian has always been the most supportive human being on the face of the planet. And the reason I’m here today. But you did my very first Mane Addicts—before Mane The Tools was Mane Addicts, which is a digital platform magazine about hair. And you did our very first digital cover. Yep. And my picture of your lips in my home, which then Kylie copied.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Thank you.

JEN ATKIN: And became the Kylie Lip Kit.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Do the young kids do this?

JEN ATKIN: I don’t know what they do.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: All of it? Nope. But we did. We did the shoot at my house. Mary did my makeup. You did my hair. Mike shot it at Grandioso. We just went to different white walls. I did my own styling. I mean, look at the hat, obviously.

JEN ATKIN: Oh, my God. But it was so fun.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: It was so fun, and we made it look—

JEN ATKIN: How cute are you? How cute are we? No, we had so much fun and time.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I wouldn’t be doing this extra if I had kids.

JEN ATKIN: Can we just say a PSA for any—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Do all your work.

JEN ATKIN: Any girl out there who thinks that you’ve got it rough, please sleep in. Please just go and hook up with as many people as possible.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: As many people.

JEN ATKIN: And honestly, just live your best life.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And, yes, travel when we get fun.

JEN ATKIN: I have no regrets. Look at this.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: No regrets. Oh, my God. That was—such a slut. That was RuPaul’s Drag Race. When I dress—first of all, biggest fan obsessed with Ru, no one asked me to dress in a character. I’m willingly like, I’m going to be a sailor.

JEN ATKIN: Wait, how did that come to be?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I don’t know why I chose to be a sailor. No, I look amazing, but the balls I had. I’m a sailor one. I was like a leopard in the second episode. I don’t know why I thought I needed to dress campy, because we were just—

JEN ATKIN: At the time, it was campy. That’s what you do if you show up to RuPaul’s Drag Race. Can we discuss something? I guess you’re kind of annoying because you’re so—you’re always—you’ve always got an aesthetic. I was just going through these pictures of your old house. You always have an aesthetic and—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: A vibe, which was what?

JEN ATKIN: But I don’t understand how you have your s* together.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I don’t know either.

JEN ATKIN: Truly, how have you just always had your s* together? You never fall apart.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: What?

JEN ATKIN: I fall apart all the time. No, you don’t.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I have days. I don’t have months.

JEN ATKIN: But your grumpy is still not as bad as most people. You’re pretty in the light.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: It’s annoying. It’s not a compliment.

JEN ATKIN: It’s annoying.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: True’s upset she goes, “Peace begins with me. Peace begins with me.” No.

JEN ATKIN: Who taught her that?

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: I don’t know.

JEN ATKIN: She’ll just do that if she feels—

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: Frustrated, because she’ll do something that she’s—she sits away. She goes, “Peace begins with me.” And I was like, I’m stealing that. Jen, thank you so much for coming on. I know how much you hate podcasts and you hate me, but I really appreciate you coming on.

JEN ATKIN: I am so happy to be here, and I’m so proud of you and all the things that you do and all of the amazing light you put into the world and the podcast. This is just another outlet for you.

KHLOÉ KARDASHIAN: And even though you’re still drunk, you did a great job. You really did. Struggling. You’re so drunk.

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