Mel Robbins Podcast: w/ Dr. Rachel Rubin on Women’s Health (Transcript)

And these are things that you can either make better, or that you can get help for, or you don’t have to live with.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Anytime you find yourself thinking or even telling yourself, “Oh, this is just how it is getting older.” “Oh, this is just how it is.” “Oh, my mother went through this.” “Oh, my friends all have this.”

How many times do you say, “I just don’t feel like myself,” or, “I’m just a little stressed,” or, “My mood — I’m anxious because of X, Y, or Z.” Well, we’ve all had stressful situations, but is it worse than it used to be?

Do you find yourself waking up more at night to urinate? Do you find that sex is a little drier, scratchier, or more painful? Do you find that your orgasm is either gone missing or takes much longer to have? Do you find that you just don’t feel like yourself?

These are all things that have a biological basis. And if you see someone who is knowledgeable about it, they can help guide you through this biological basis and give you some biological solutions. Now, that’s not to discount our wonderful friends in the mental health spaces, because psychosocial issues affect all of us. I am here to say the biology is also extremely important, and we never talk about it.

Low libido is a medical condition if you are bothered by it. And we have medical, FDA-approved solutions in our toolbox that work miraculously for people. And so it is so important that we talk to people about these issues, so that they don’t leak on themselves when they cough, laugh, or sneeze. That they don’t get their tenth UTI without asking, “Hey, can I actually prevent this from happening?” Where they see the right clinician. Because just because it’s someone you’ve worked with for 20 years doesn’t mean they’re up to date on what’s going on with you now.

A Woman’s Hormonal Journey: From Puberty to Menopause

MEL ROBBINS: Why can you just give us a brief overview of hormones and what every woman needs to know? I’d love for you to kind of go in the chunks of — what does every 20-year-old woman need to know, whether she’s sexually active or not, in that decade? What do you need to know during pregnancy? What do you need to know during perimenopause, menopause, and beyond?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So hormones are not good or bad, right or wrong. They shouldn’t come with emotions and feelings and stigma. They just are. And we’re learning more about them every day, and we have so much we have yet to know. But let’s take it as what do we know today?

Well, we know that the body makes estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. And we know there’s a cyclical way that they are made. Kids have no sex hormones in their body, or not significant amounts. And then puberty starts and their gonads start to produce hormones. Their ovaries or their testicles start to produce all these hormones.

The testicles produce testosterone predominantly, but boys do make estrogen. Men’s estrogen levels at 25 are not insignificant, which helps their bones. And girls, in this pubertal stage, the ovaries are doing these wild fluctuations and they are unpredictable.

I love talking about perimenopause in the way of puberty, because we understand puberty, we talk about it, we hold space for it. We don’t let teenagers make serious decisions. We hold space for it.

So what’s happening is estrogen goes up. Progesterone, if you ovulate, the shell of the egg makes progesterone. Throughout the cycle, testosterone is made. We think it peaks during ovulation because that’s what gets your libido going, makes you want to make a baby. And so that’s fluctuating.

And sometimes it stabilizes. If you’re lucky, you get regular irregularity. So it means every 28 days, you’re kind of used to this weird 28-day cycle. The first half, when you have your period, your estrogen is low — it’s not zero, it’s about 50. Then it goes higher and higher and it starts to peak at ovulation. Your estrogen might get to 150, maybe 300. You pop out an egg, the shell makes progesterone. And the second half of your cycle, you’ve got progesterone in your body. And when that egg doesn’t fertilize, the progesterone drops. And when it drops, that’s what sheds your lining. You get your period, and you start all over again.

So you are regularly having these irregular shifts of estrogen in the first half, and estrogen and progesterone in the second half.

When you are pregnant, your estrogen is 3,000. Okay, an estrogen of 3,000 for about nine months. And then as soon as you have the baby, that 3,000 crashes to zero. Crashes to zero. And that’s brief menopause.

And while you are breastfeeding, you are in menopause, often that whole time. Sometimes your periods come back and you start to fluctuate again. But if you are one of those people who breastfeeds and never gets their period back, you are menopausal until you get your periods back. And that comes with every symptom of menopause.

The more you understand your hormones and where in your life cycle you are, the more your symptoms start to make sense. “Oh, I’m breastfeeding and I’m having hot flashes all the time. My sleep is really disrupted.” Yes, the baby’s crying, but the brain fog — nobody remembers their birth, because you have so much brain fog, because your estrogen just went from 3,000 to zero.

And so the symptoms — the vaginal symptoms, the genital symptoms, the dryness, the irritation, the leakage that’s worse, the frequency, the urgency, and the UTIs.

And then, guess what? Around 35, around your 30s, your testosterone starts to drop. Drop precipitously. It’s not actually about menopause. It’s about age. As we get older, our testosterone starts to drop. Or if you’ve done something before to mess with your testosterone, like birth control pills or spironolactone, or any of the other things that we do to mess with our hormone levels. And when your testosterone drops, we think there are consequences — low libido, increase in UTIs, increase in pain with sex.

This is what we’re calling perimenopause. And then your regular irregularity of your cycle starts to change. Instead of every 28 days, now it’s 35 days, then it’s 18 days, then you’re bleeding all the time. And what’s happening there is the same thing that was happening in puberty, where your estrogen is going super high and super low, and it’s this chaos.

And then at some point, the chaos halts to zero. And menopause is a castration event where your hormones just turn off like a light bulb. And sometimes it’s a nice, smooth ramp, and sometimes it is chaos.

And you deserve to be treated, cared for, informed, and empowered through every darn cycle that we just talked about. Whether you are in puberty, just trying to understand how your body works, whether you are normally in your cycle and you’re just trying to understand how your body works, or you have terrible PMS —

MEL ROBBINS: — or if you have —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: — or if it’s not normal, which is — there’s no normal. None of my patients are textbook answers. Whether you have PMS or PMDD or PCOS or endometriosis. We see so much pain and suffering because people are not following the textbook, and they are gaslit, and then they are told that it’s in their head, when they are just not following the rules of the book. Because the book is old and outdated, and no one taught us the updated version.

Hormones Are at the Root of It All

MEL ROBBINS: And by “the book,” Dr. Rubin, you are here to teach us that every single one of those issues that you just listed — that affect women from the moment puberty starts till the moment we’re in the grave, whether it’s UTIs or it’s pain, or it’s itchiness, or it’s dryness, or it’s painful sex, or any of the diseases that you talked about — all come down to hormones and are impacted by hormones.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Hormones are a part of this story. Yes.

The Link Between UTIs and Hormones

MEL ROBBINS: What is one of the big things that doctors or people think they knew that’s actually wrong?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Well, that we treat all UTIs just with antibiotics. That’s one thing. You do treat the infection, but you have to get to the underlying root cause problem, which is the hormonal shifts that are happening with the woman in front of you.

MEL ROBBINS: Wait, you can get UTIs from hormone changes?

The Impact of Hormones on UTIs and Vaginal Health

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And it’s so common. Any kind of hormone fluctuation that happens in your body will affect your genital and urinary health. And so when you play with hormones, there are consequences, sometimes good and sometimes bad.

So people who are on birth control pills can sometimes get an increased risk of UTIs, people who are breastfeeding, people who are on hormone therapies in breast cancer. So endocrine therapies, anastrozole, tamoxifen, those types of things, perimenopause, and men can increase your risk of UTI drastically.

This is an issue called the genitourinary syndrome of menopause, or GSM. Now, it’s not just menopause, even though it’s called GSM menopause. And with vaginal hormones, if you microdose hormones into the vagina, it fixes your bladder microbiome, it fixes your vaginal microbiome, and it prevents UTIs so massively that our research team of medical students published that we could save Medicare between $6 and $22 billion a year.

MEL ROBBINS: I don’t even know how to interview you because my mouth is on the floor right now. I just want to make sure I got that. So any kind of hormone fluctuation or hormone change or taking hormones — so whether you’re talking about somebody in their teens or twenties on birth control or breastfeeding, or somebody taking hormone replacement therapy or on and on and on — can have an impact on getting more frequent UTIs. And one treatment is vaginal hormones, which is wildly effective.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And safe.

MEL ROBBINS: And safe and doesn’t destroy your gut lining the way antibiotics do when you’re taking them over and over and over again is the only thing.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yes.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, my God. I’ve never heard this before.

A Public Service Announcement: What Every Woman Needs to Know

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So it’s really important. The biggest PSA, a public service announcement that we need is to get this in the ears of every human on earth, because women are dying. You and your family members are at risk of dying or being in the hospital or missing your children’s events because you’re going to urgent care for antibiotics for the 10th time. You stop having sex because every time you have sex, you get a urinary tract infection.

Most of those problems — not every problem, but the majority of those problems — are due to hormone fluctuations that are changing the microbiome of the vagina and the bladder. And it can be treated for every aged person, for every person with every medical problem, with a microdosed amount of hormone that is safe for your great grandmother in the nursing home and you can take for life and can cost you as little as $7 a month.

We can go through all of the options because the most important thing is for your family members to hear this. And we advocated for about seven years for the American Urologic Association to publish guidelines on this exact topic. And so we published those guidelines in 2025. It’s my proudest achievement.

The guidelines talk about these symptoms of the hormonal shifts that happen not just in menopause, but in breastfeeding, in breast cancer, in birth control pills, in any type of hormonal medications — that using vaginal hormones, whether it’s vaginal estrogen or vaginal DHEA, prevent urinary tract infections by more than half.

But Mel, here’s the crazy part. We’ve known about this since the 1990s. We’ve had products since the 1970s. And yet why don’t you and your listeners know this? No one ever taught your doctors this. No one ever talked about it publicly because the two dirtiest words in the English language are “vagina” and “estrogen.” And so because we can’t say those words, no one is prescribing this.

And again, because we decided that all women’s health goes to gynecology, no other doctor needs to know about women’s stuff. Because you just go to your gynecologist. And I’ll be honest, your gynecologist is busy doing life-saving work for pregnant women, for women with cancer — this is not their top priority. But then women are dying of urinary tract infections.

Removing the False Warning Labels: A Hard-Won Victory

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Up until this last year, there were warning labels on the vaginal hormone products. And on all hormone products, in fact, there were false, incorrect warning labels that said these products cause stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, probable dementia, and you need to use with progesterone. None of those things are true. Not one of those statements is true.

And so we’ve been advocating for changes of those labels for decades. We went to the FDA, we went back to the FDA, we wrote letters, we did all of this. But through grassroots advocacy, through social media, through letter writing campaigns, through knocking on every door we could find, last year we got the FDA to announce that they removed the box labeling on vaginal hormone products.

And not only that, to be able to stare down the FDA commissioner eye to eye — and I encourage everyone to watch my five-minute testimony because I’m really proud of it — I got to look at the FDA commissioner and I said, “Your box label tried to kill my mother.” And I told the whole story of how it tried to kill my mother. And that was in July of 2025. And then in November, we got to stand on stage at Health and Human Services and announce that they were removing the box label.

That box labeling — your doctor, your family doctor, your gynecologist, your urologist — they would give you this medication and then the ladies would take it home and they’d say, “Oh my God, this is scary. This says it’s going to kill me.” And so now that those labels are officially off, it’s game changing.

And so the PSA becomes, we have to explain to people these medicines were always safe. Not only were they safe, they were life-saving medications. And the label was wrong. It was always wrong. And now we have to teach people how to use it, why to use it, how to write the prescriptions. And so I am sort of working non-stop at every angle, both through the FDA to patients every day, to teach clinicians every day, because each arm of that is so important to save those lives.

GSM: It’s Not Just a Menopause Problem

MEL ROBBINS: I don’t even know how to summarize what we’re talking about because we’re talking about hormones and sexual health and UTIs and just your health in general. And you were just explaining something I never knew, which is GSM and the fact that women of all ages get UTIs because of changes in hormones due to birth control, breastfeeding. Like we all thought this was due to sex — it’s due to hormones. And that there is a very safe and very accessible preventative treatment of vaginal hormones that can help you prevent this.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s truly old news that needs to get into all the new ears. This is not emerging science. This is not new science. This is life-saving medicine that we’ve known about since the 70s, that we’ve had in the New England Journal of Medicine in the 90s. And so the question is, why don’t I know about this? And it’s truly just marketing. It is marketing that nobody has told doctors this, that has told patients this, which is why we fought to get these guidelines created, because you cannot argue with guidelines by the American Urologic Association.

MEL ROBBINS: First of all, thank you for all of that work and thank you for explaining that. And I want to be sure that we don’t move on until we’ve completely unpacked this.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Love this conversation. Because it’s happening already every single day because of not just me, but so many of my amazing colleagues on social media. They’re yelling, they’re screaming, and we are saying the same thing over and over and over again.

Basic stuff. GSM, genitourinary syndrome of menopause, is what happens to the vagina, to the vulva, to the bladder, to the urethra — the tube that you pee through — when hormones change. So like a plant needing water, the vagina needs hormones.

If we get really simple — you have babies, right? When you’re changing them, you have daughters. You probably remember when you used to change their diaper, it was teensy tiny. It didn’t look like grown-up genitals. It looks like baby genitals. That is no hormones. That’s what happens when there’s no hormones. Very thin, it’s very fragile. They pee their diaper all the time. You put that diaper cream — it’s a visual. Anyone who’s changed a diaper, they know this.

And then puberty happens. Your kids stop letting you look down there, but puberty happens and there is a surge of hormones. You start changing, you get taller, you get breasts, you get meaner to your mother. But your genitals, they change, they transform, they respond to estrogen and testosterone. And so there are things that you can see with your eyeballs, like the labia start to grow, the clitoris grows, the area becomes pink. You can put tampons in, you can have sex, you can lubricate, you can orgasm. This is all because of hormones.

And so again, when you play with hormones, there are consequences. So anything you do to manipulate hormones can change the health of this tissue. So when perimenopause happens, or other things like breastfeeding or birth control pills —

MEL ROBBINS: So this GSM can affect a 20-year-old?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It can absolutely affect you if you’re on birth control. Absolutely.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

How Hormones Affect the Vaginal and Bladder Microbiome

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And so because the tissue responds to both estrogen and testosterone, any changes to estrogen and testosterone can affect this tissue. So without those hormones, or with a significant change to those hormones or a fluctuation of hormones, the tissue can start changing the way that it looks, but it can also start changing the way that it feels.

So you see your pH start to change. The tissue, which wants to be acidic — the vagina wants to be acidic so it can fight infection. The acid fights infection, keeps you safe, keeps everything as a healthy microbiome. You start to lose that acidity. The pH starts to rise. Bad bacteria start to grow, the good bacteria start to shrink. You can see dryness, thinning, maybe it cracks and bleeds, it starts to hurt. Sex becomes painful. Orgasm gets more difficult. Arousal — you don’t feel that same blood flow. You can see the labia minora, those inner wings, can start to disappear, actually, because women don’t know that their genitals are changing in response to changing hormones.

But there’s so much hope because with microdosing, small amounts of vaginal hormones, you can prevent all of this and cure this problem. This isn’t like a little bit of lubricant that helps it be more slippery. This is fixing the pH, fixing the microbiome, fighting infections, preventing UTIs, making sex not painful, helping with your natural lubrication. And it is not expensive, often covered by your insurance, and prevents urinary tract infections by more than half.

So it doesn’t even matter if you’re sexually active or not. And by the way, it’s not just urinary tract infections. It’s frequency. It’s urgency. It’s leakage.

MEL ROBBINS: Wait, what do hormones have to do with frequency, urgency, and leakage?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Because the whole environment, when it has hormones, it’s less twitchy, it’s less irritated. It is the response to the dryness, the thinness, this irritation where your bladder is just like, “I’m not feeling great. I’m not feeling my best self right now.” And so the hormones fix the bladder as well.

And so it is truly wild how simple and easy this is. This used to be called vaginal dryness, atrophic vaginitis. It was kind of seen as like, “Oh, yeah, it’s a little dry down there. Okay, old lady, here’s some lubricant. Here’s some moisturizer.” No, no. This is urinary tract infections. This is frequency and urgency and leakage and pain.

MEL ROBBINS: This is decades of my life, honestly.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: You felt this — tell people your experience.

Mel’s Personal Experience with Chronic UTIs

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, my God. When I was in my mid-20s, I started getting chronic UTIs.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Was it your birth control?

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I always thought it was because I was having sex with my boyfriend, but it was probably a combination of both.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: And it became such a problem that I had two hospitalizations where the UTI would start. I would think that the antibiotics got it, but meanwhile, it was traveling up.

Vaginal Hormone Therapy: A Game-Changer for Women’s Health

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: To your kidneys?

MEL ROBBINS: To my kidneys. I would spike a super high fever and then end up with a UTI that had gone to the kidneys. And then when I had kids. Oh, my God. Once I had kids, it was like two decades of cycling through many perimenopause where I would get so dry and so irritated. I’ve had constant issues with leaking and with urgency, and it was just called vaginal dryness. And so I would treat a UTI with an antibiotic. I would drink cranberry juice. I would slap some AND on with a pad in my underwear in order to kind of get through it. And I would just grit and barely.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Can I just say, on behalf of all of my colleagues, I’m so sorry that you were not treated to the full extent of our knowledge, because we have completely not taught medical professionals the underlying reasons of why this is so important.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I want to just make sure I understand what you mean by vaginal hormone supplements and that this is both something you can just do as part of your protocol to keep your sexual health and the hormone balance of your vagina and your urinary tract in balance, but it’s also how you treat it.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So this is really important because it can be part of your hormone regimen and it should be part. So if you’re on a patch or an oral estrogen or pellets or anything like that, if you’re doing whole body hormone therapy, you still likely need vaginal hormone therapy. So if you think you do, still.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I literally am like, I’m wearing a patch right now and I popped my ass — my progesterone pill last night.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Do you put anything vaginal?

MEL ROBBINS: Like, I just — Mel Robbins.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Mel Robbins, we are about to change your life.

MEL ROBBINS: Thank God.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I can’t believe this. Oh, my God.

MEL ROBBINS: I need some testosterone too. And I think —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So we’re going to have some fun because it’s really important. Because if again, here’s my mission. If I help you, think of how many millions of people we’re going to help. Because what you have going on is not rare. And so it is so important. And we wrote this in our guidelines. The American Urologic Association, we published guidelines on the genitourinary syndrome of menopause in 2025. My favorite guideline statement is number 11, which says people on hormone therapy still should be screened and treated for the genitourinary syndrome of menopause, and we should be giving vaginal hormones.

So if you have any symptoms, I’ll ask, do you have any symptoms of urinary frequency, urgency, leakage, UTIs, dryness, pain, anything like that?

MEL ROBBINS: I don’t have any leakage because I actually ended up getting bladder surgery. It got that bad. Occasionally, dryness. Yeah, frequency. I go to the bathroom more than I’d like to go.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Women just put up with what’s their normal. And so when —

MEL ROBBINS: How often should I go to the bathroom? I don’t even know.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: When we add vaginal hormones to your routine in about two to three months, you’re going to send me an email. I can already see it. I’m manifesting this email that says, “Holy moly. I did not even know how badly I felt.”

MEL ROBBINS: You know what? I’m going to admit something, and the team will probably out me on this. I bet I use the bathroom here eight or nine times a day.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah, it’s a lot.

MEL ROBBINS: And that’s a symptom of GSM potentially?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Absolutely.

MEL ROBBINS: Really?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Holy cow. I didn’t even know that this was something that we could change.

The Real Benefits of Vaginal Hormones

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Let’s try. The reality is, adding vaginal hormones has no downside. Literally no downside. It takes about two to three months to maximally get your tissue. This is true rejuvenation, by the way. All that adds for vaginal rejuvenations are crap. This is real rejuvenation. Because like a plant needing water — think of a dry, cracked, hungry plant. You give it water and it thrives. And so this is what vaginal hormones are to this tissue.

So it takes about two to three months to maximally prevent those UTIs and to fix those symptoms. And there are other things to do as well. I’m not saying this is the only thing you have to do, but it is like sunscreen. It is the foundational element. This is the life-saving therapy that is going to keep the tissue as healthy and as flourishing as possible.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. I love — if you’re listening, there’s all kinds of things on the table now. It’s like you dumped your medical purse.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Oh my gosh, my medical bag. Okay, so we have — can you see any of this? I can. I’m going to hold it up for that.

MEL ROBBINS: You’re holding up a pouch.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I’m going to hold it up. Okay, so here we have some vaginal pH paper, and actually you can get vaginal pH paper on Amazon.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And the pH of the vagina wants to be four and a half or less. So you take the strip and you just rub it on the inside of your vagina. You could rub it with a Q-tip and rub it on this paper and you would look at the color. And if it’s yellow or light green, you’re in a less than four and a half, which is an acidic pH. If it’s dark blue or a higher pH, that is a sign that your vagina is not acidic enough.

And so if a patient says she’s on vaginal hormones and we look at the pH and it’s dark blue, I’m like, “Wait a minute, are you really using this? Do you have an infection? That’s explaining why this stuff isn’t working. Are you using enough of the thing that we prescribed to you?” So this is something — a vaginal pH strip you can buy on Amazon.

MEL ROBBINS: I can do this right now and see if I need —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And you can see if this is why you’re getting urinary tract infections. Even if the pH is normal, you can and should still use vaginal hormones. If you’re having any symptoms like frequency, urgency, or if you’ve had any urinary tract infections, we really want to consider an underlying hormonal cause. Does that make sense?

MEL ROBBINS: Yes, makes a lot of sense.

Vaginal Hormone Products: What Are Your Options?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So vaginal hormones are microdosed amounts of hormones — a tiny amount. So it is such a minuscule amount that it doesn’t change what your patch is doing, your estrogen patch. Or say someone who’s on no hormone therapy. So a 70-year-old woman on no estrogen therapy, her estrogen levels are zero. Okay, zero. If she uses any of these vaginal hormone products, her estrogen level still stays around zero.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: They may blip up to like 20 for a couple of hours. The data shows, by the way, your husband’s estrogen is 25. So it blips for a couple of hours to 20 and then goes right back down to zero. So these are safe if you have any reason to fear whole body hormone therapy. Vaginal hormones are a different bucket. They don’t count. They do not go throughout your body.

So the most common prescription — I’m holding up a tube of cream called estradiol cream. This tube of cream, cash price is $13. Okay, $13. This tube of cream will last you about two and a half months. So that means for about $7 a month you can prevent UTIs by more than half.

MEL ROBBINS: And who do I get that from?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So right now you need a prescription. But the head of the FDA said he’s interested in looking at making vaginal estrogen over the counter, which would be game-changing because right now you have to get a prescription from your doctor. And there’s a chance your doctor doesn’t know how to write this prescription. So the guidelines, which we’ll link to, tell you how to write the prescription. My website has a free downloadable where you can teach your doctor how to write the prescription.

But you take one gram of this cream — so you can put it in an applicator to make one gram, or you can just put it on your finger, on the strip of your finger like you’re brushing your teeth when you forgot your toothbrush. And you rub it on the inside walls of your vagina like you put sunscreen on your face. You don’t glob it in, you rub it in, so it’s not messy or goopy or gloppy, and you just rub it in and you go on with your day. You do one gram twice a week. A twice-a-week therapy for $13 a tube can save your life.

If you don’t like creams — and so many women don’t like to put creams in their vagina, I get it, I don’t like it very much myself — there are other options. This is a generic product. It’s 10 micrograms, which is a tiny dose of estradiol or estrogen. And it’s a suppository. So you take the applicator, you press a button and it puts a tiny little pill in the vagina, and you do it twice a week at bedtime, and you set it and forget it. You’re done. It’s just so easy to do. And it prevents UTIs by more than half.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Now, if you really want to set it and forget it, they make a ring. This is called an Estring. It is a localized low-dose estrogen that you put in the vagina and you leave it in for three months at a time. This is great for your very busy person on the go, or your patient who maybe has dexterity issues or dementia in the nursing home.

I had a patient who had end-stage dementia. Her husband brought her to see me. She was on opioids because she was in so much pain and she couldn’t sit. And I examined her and I said, “I think this is just GSM. I think you just have genitourinary syndrome of menopause.” And we were able to put the ring in. And three months later, I get a call from her husband and he says, “I would pay any amount of money in the world for that ring because you saved my wife’s life. She has quality of life. She’s off opioids, she sits without pain. I’m so grateful to you.”

It’s a beautiful story of quality of life matters. And so each product has their own benefits. It’s a toolbox, which is so great because not every woman is going to want the same product.

A Message for Nursing Homes and Caregivers

MEL ROBBINS: Well, and I would hope that if you’re listening and you know somebody that works in a nursing home, or you know somebody who has someone in their family who is struggling with dementia or in a nursing home, the stories that you hear of elderly women living with chronic UTIs is — I mean, it’s a very, very common story. And a ring like this and one appointment could change the quality of their life.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And it’s so important, truly. I can’t express it enough of how the nursing homes need to get on board with this, how we need to be helping patients with this, because this is all preventative. So if you do have an infection, yes, you need to see a doctor, get a culture. If you’re symptomatic, you need treatment with antibiotics. But we have so much antibiotic resistance happening, gut issues that are happening because of all the antibiotics that we’re giving people. So anything we can do to prevent this problem — and nothing prevents urinary tract infections to the level that vaginal hormones do. And so getting the warning labels coming off, because they were never correct, is so monumental.

MEL ROBBINS: And it’s the same treatment whether you are a 20-something on birth control and having chronic UTIs like I did, or you’re a menopausal person, or you’re a woman in her 80s or 90s in a nursing home. It’s the same treatment.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Totally same treatment. If you had been on your birth control, I probably would have convinced you to get a hormonal IUD, which doesn’t typically cause the problem.

MEL ROBBINS: I actually got one.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. And then I didn’t have issues for a while.

Dr. Rubin’s Personal Story: Her Mother and the FDA Label Change

The Mirena IUD and Hormonal Balance

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: The Mirena doesn’t shut your ovaries off, so it doesn’t change ovulation. It’s a hormonal IUD, but it’s a progestin and it’s a very micro-dosed amount of progestin. So it doesn’t go through your whole body. It just coats the uterus to keep the lining thin so that you don’t implant and have a baby. I’m not a gynecologist. That’s the best I can do as a urologist.

But what birth control does, is it turns your ovaries off, it shuts down your ovaries and it adds back high doses of fake estrogen and a fake progestin. It doesn’t add back testosterone. Every woman on a birth control pill has a low testosterone state. And that’s a problem because the genitals are full of testosterone receptors, and so it throws off your microbiome, which is why you had pain with sex, or UTIs and all of these issues around sex. Because it’s a sexual organ.

So an IUD doesn’t shut your ovaries off. Your ovaries are now making testosterone again, they’re making estrogen again, they’re making progesterone again. So they give the genitals what they need, and that’s why you stop getting UTIs.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. You mentioned your mom.

A Personal Fight in the ICU

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah, I would love to tell this story actually. So this is really personal. This issue got really personal for me and my family.

My mom was a nurse. My mom and I had a challenging relationship, as many mothers and daughters do. She was an amazing lady, incredible, talented, creative woman who didn’t quite believe in herself the way that she didn’t quite see herself the way that everybody else saw her. She really was a superhero.

My mom, after Covid, developed a lung condition of pulmonary fibrosis that was pretty sad and was progressing, and she needed oxygen. My mom was a lady who lived the crap out of life, and if she didn’t have the quality of life she wanted, she wasn’t really happy to do more. So she decided, and her doctors decided, to get a lung transplant.

My mom got a lung transplant and didn’t really wake up from it. It didn’t go well. She was in the ICU for about six months. Oh my God. She was in Houston at the time. I was in Washington D.C. building my practice, doing all this advocacy work, yelling and screaming and seeing patients. And we were navigating this ICU stay.

Now, ultimately she woke up from a coma and got another lung transplant, and ultimately decided — we couldn’t get her out of the ICU. But during the six-month hospital stay, I said to the doctor, she was very sick, and I said, “I’d really like to start her home dose of vaginal hormones because my mom is immunocompromised. Her immune system is off. She is at risk of getting a urinary tract infection. She’s got a catheter in place. I’m a urologist, we’re working on these guidelines. I know that she could die of urosepsis very quickly. I’d like to start her home dose of vaginal estrogen.”

And they looked at me like I was insane. They said, “Little girl, don’t you know your mother’s very sick?” I said, “Yes, I know my mother’s very sick, but I also know the data and I know that this could save her life.” And they said, “Don’t you know hormones cause blood clots and strokes and heart attacks?” And I said, “That’s not true. I know the data. That’s absolutely not true.”

So I showed them the data. I wrote up a whole thing. I sort of clutched my pearls and said, “Do you know who I am?” They didn’t really care, to be honest, but they said, “Okay, do whatever you want. We don’t care what happens. Sure, you can do the vaginal estrogen, but you have to convince the ICU team.”

So I go to the ICU team. I said, “Okay, here’s the data. Here’s what we should do.” They said, “Don’t you know it causes blood clots?” I said, “No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t cause blood clots. Here’s the data.” So they said, “Okay, fine. Do whatever you want. You’re a doctor. You can do this, but show us how to write the prescription.”

So I’m in Houston, and I’m typing out how to write the prescription in their medical record because they have no idea. Well, then the pharmacy calls, and they said, “We can’t dispense this to the ICU. There’s a big warning alert that says this causes blood clots. The box says it right here. It says it causes stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, probable dementia. And your mother is so sick.”

And I said, “I know my mother is so sick, and I know the data. I’m on the guidelines committee. I know this better than almost anybody else in the world. I want you to give the prescription.”

So they sent up this tube of estrogen to her hospital room, and the nurses looked at it and said, “We’ve never seen that medicine before. We don’t know how to give it.” They didn’t send it with the applicator, and they didn’t send it with any instructions. And so I did what any good daughter would do — I put on gloves and I did it, and I showed them how to do it.

And what was so beautiful was, because I couldn’t be there every day, my dad and my brother were. And they advocated every twice a week, because what happens for anyone who’s been in the ICU — and I see you and I hear you, and I’m so sorry for what you’re going through — what I found out was right. What we know is that every week the team changes.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And we had to do it all over again.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, my God.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And so it gave something for my dad and my brother to advocate. It gave them something they could control. And so it was really, actually beautiful because every Monday and Thursday, my dad would call me. He’d say, “I talked to the nurse. I made sure it was on the med list. I made sure they’re going to give it. I’ll tell them what to do.” And it was something they could control.

Now, my mother woke up from her coma and she came out of it and she knew that we were doing this and we were advocating, and she was really pro it. She thinks I’m a little ridiculous. But anyway, ultimately my mother decided to go on hospice, and my mother passed in November.

The FDA Label Change — On Her Mother’s Birthday

Now, what’s so beautiful about this story — she passed on my 10-year wedding anniversary, which I thought was a little sad. But what happened? On February 12, 2026, the FDA officially removed the label. And it’s my mom’s birthday.

MEL ROBBINS: Oh my God, you’re going to make me cry. They did it on your mom’s birthday?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I didn’t know it was my mom’s birthday. But again, this is the universe — in that on my mom’s birthday, the FDA announced that they started to remove the labels that say “causes stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, probable dementia.” The warning label no longer exists. It never should have existed.

And so it was so incredible to get to have that story. She didn’t get to see me on stage announcing the label removal. She didn’t get to experience all of that. But she’s up somewhere — Carol Rubin. She’s somewhere up there, helping with all of this stuff.

MEL ROBBINS: What a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, how incredible. What does that mean to you? Especially the part that the label started getting removed on her birthday after she died.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Honestly, the movement that’s been happening, the interest in this, the guidelines coming out, the labels getting changed, the groundswell of grassroots women standing up and saying “no more” — it’s so beautiful. It’s so overwhelming.

And in the world, which is a very scary and wild place right now, to see these glimmers of hope, to see that when you take action and you work in community and you get loud about something you believe in and you actually see things change — taking action is what gives you hope. And I tell my patients that every day. We keep taking action. We show up, we get loud. It’s truly remarkable. And to be a part of this has been — I mean, I have no words. It just really is absolutely incredible.

Who Should Be on Vaginal Estrogen?

MEL ROBBINS: You’ve shared so much about this topic of GSM and vaginal estrogen. Just so it is very clear — who exactly should be on vaginal estrogen, Dr. Rubin?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: There is no one who can’t have vaginal estrogen — that is really important. There is no one who is contraindicated or shouldn’t have these products. There is what we call shared decision making, in that you have to want it and your doctor has to want to give it, and you have to come to this conclusion that it’s the right thing for you. And in my opinion, it is the right thing for you.

If you have any urinary symptoms — frequency, urgency, leakage — any pain with sex, dryness, if you’ve had a UTI, you should be considered for vaginal hormones. That includes if you’ve had a history of breast cancer, if you’ve had a history of any types of cancer, because quality of life is so important. And dying of a UTI doesn’t sound very good to me.

There is no data to show harm in these products. In fact, a paper came out two years ago that looked at 50,000 women with active breast cancer, and those who took vaginal estrogen died less. So there are papers out there that show less mortality — dying less — if you use vaginal hormones than if you don’t. There are even observational papers that show people who take vaginal estrogen have fewer heart attacks, strokes, things like that. And I think it’s because, again, maybe these women are sexually active, they’re more active, they’re more interested in their health, so we see these health outcomes.

But you shouldn’t suffer. So many people are constantly feeling itching, burning, dryness, awareness of their genitals. They’re grabbing at their pants, they can’t wear pants anymore. They can’t sit through their mahjong game, they can’t go visit their kids, they can’t pick up their grandkids without leaking. And there are therapies and treatments that are inexpensive, that are safe, and that if you use, will work.

Now, if you don’t use them, if they stay in your bathroom drawer, if you can’t afford them, they do not work. But a generic tube of estradiol cream can be as little as $13 a tube, cash price, without insurance. So they are now accessible. And if they become over the counter, even better. The more we can get this in the hands of the people who need it, the better.

MEL ROBBINS: And if the person who’s listening is not in perimenopause or menopause yet — they’re younger — are they still a candidate for vaginal estrogen?

Vaginal Hormones for Breastfeeding and Younger Women

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Absolutely. So if you’re breastfeeding — we actually published, I have the greatest research team in the world. You have a good team, Mel. I’ve heard about your team. You have a great team. I have an incredible team. I started a grassroots research group. We published in the biggest OB-GYN journal last year on GSL — the genitourinary syndrome of lactation.

The fact is, when you are breastfeeding, you’re in what I call menopause. And every gynecologist knows this, but they forgot to tell all of us, and they forgot to tell us that vaginal hormones were actually safe. So GSM and GSL are the same thing — genitourinary syndrome of lactation.

When you have a breastfeeding patient, or a lactating, pumping patient, they will also have frequency, urgency, leakage, more UTIs, pain with sex, dryness, low libido. They have all of those things. And vaginal hormones are safe for them, don’t affect your milk supply, and should be used commonly. And in fact, we’ve done even more research that shows very few of these patients are actually offered vaginal hormone therapy, and it’s being really underused.

Living With Symptoms You Don’t Realize Are a Problem

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. Wow. You know, one of the reasons why I’m so glad we’re talking about this is I think that you live with a lot of things as a woman and you don’t realize it’s actually an issue. Like, I just assume that the reason why I go to the bathroom at work like seven or eight times in a workday is because I drink a lot of water, or maybe the bladder surgery that I had and the sling that my bladder is in is a couple years — I don’t know, five or six years old now. Maybe there’s something going on there. I just assume, “Okay, well, this is just something I live with.”

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And we see this every day. And again, this is why medicine, the way that it is currently set up, is not meant for women.

The Broken Medical System and Women’s Sexual Health

MEL ROBBINS: Or really, here’s the other thing about it, is that it feels like this thing that. What am I going to do? Make an appointment to go to a urologist? What am I going to do? Go to my gynecologist? Who’s got time for that? And is it even an issue? Or is it just like my body? And when you said the thing about grabbing at your pants or feeling a little dry or things feel a little uncomfortable. Like, is this even an issue or is this just how things are? You know what I mean?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And that’s the challenge, because I’ll be honest, medicine is not meant for people. Because if you come to my office and we only have 10 minutes, which is what most doctor’s office visits are, and we sit down for 10 minutes, do you think I’m really going to get to know you, Mel, in 10 minutes? I could be the smartest doctor in the world. Do you think I’m going to know? Or it’s going to be high up on my list to ask you if you’re grabbing at your pants because you have some vaginal irritation? That is not going to be 1, 2, 3, 4, or 27 on my list of things to talk to you about in 10 minutes.

And so medicine is broken because we are missing the rich, beautiful lives of our patients. I have taken myself out of the system and I’m still trying to figure out how we do that in a big, accessible way. But this idea of your support system matters. How you learned about sex matters. How you feel about your own libido, or if you have pain with sex — that matters to you and the person you are with. It matters deeply.

And so, yes, you don’t find yourself going to make an appointment because you don’t even know that there’s someone who would listen. And so that’s what we’re trying to change — this idea that it matters to you, and there is someone who it matters to, like another clinician. I always think of it like a pit crew. You have to kind of bring in the people into your pit crew when you have space for it, because you don’t always have the space or the energy for all the things at once. If you listen to your podcast, you know you can’t do all the things in one day. You have to kind of meet yourself where you are and give you what you need.

But if sexual health or urinary health or quality of life is important to you, there is a growing movement of clinicians who deeply care about these issues, too. We don’t have the clinicians to do the work. And that’s where I struggle, because there are not enough people who know how to write estrogen prescriptions. It’s simple. I can do it. If I can do it, anyone can do it. And that’s why we have to teach. We have to get loud.

So it’s not just enough for me to do this podcast and yell and scream and say, “Hey, this is really important,” because women are knocking on doctors’ doors every day now and being told no. They’re being told, “This isn’t real, this is all in your head.” These clinicians — they’re not bad people, they’re doing a lot of things, but they were never taught how to do this. And then there’s the fact that we decided not to study women at all in science. And so we’re 30 years behind and we don’t have enough funding, we don’t have enough research money. So there’s a reason your doctor doesn’t know anything about this topic.

MEL ROBBINS: But you know what we do have? We have you. And so we can go to your website and we are going to link to absolutely everything in the show notes. And in fact you have a printout that you can take to your doctor to explain the guidelines on this and how to prescribe it. And so you are making it easier for us. By being here and sharing all this and teaching us about our bodies and about these life-changing and life-saving options for ourselves, our daughters, our mothers, our grandmothers, our sisters, you are empowering us to be part of the positive change that needs to happen when it comes to women’s health.

Birth Control, Hormonal Acne Medication, and Pelvic Pain

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I had a woman in my office just this week. She came to see me with debilitating pelvic pain where her goal to work with me was, “I want to be able to pick a job where I’m not afraid of being at work because of my urinary pain.” And what caused her urinary pain? Birth control pills and spironolactone for her acne.

MEL ROBBINS: What? Hold on a second. Birth control pills and that medication for hormonal acne?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yes.

MEL ROBBINS: Which I have two daughters in their 20s.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So those medicines work to block testosterone and that’s why they help with the acne. Now I’m not saying you should never be on these medications, but when you play with hormones there can be consequences. And for this patient it was causing horrible vulvar pain and urinary pain and urinary tract infections and pain with sex. But she didn’t even come to see me, the sex doctor, about her pain with sex. It was, “I can’t have a job that I go to. I have to do remote work from home because I am so afraid of being in a place with urinary pain and planning my whole life around it.”

MEL ROBBINS: Well, here’s the thing that I think is really important — and I think it’s important because in your 20s as a woman, and your 30s, you just kind of think UTIs are a byproduct of having sex. And what you’re saying is, if you’re somebody that tends to get them more frequently, before you just blame it on sex and keep trying to get antibiotics and chugging your cranberry juice, you should go to the doctor and ask for a prescription of vaginal hormones, because the research is clear that it is safe. And if you simply use it twice a week, it prevents 50% of the UTIs that you’re going to get.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It should. Now, we need more data on using these products in young people. But the reality is you won’t hurt anybody using these products. The question is, is the birth control affecting things so much that it will override this, which I don’t know. I think it would be okay, but considering other forms of birth control that don’t alter testosterone levels — that’s where we love IUDs and things like that, because they don’t alter your body’s formation of these hormones.

And so we have to be thinking broader about urinary tract infections from a hormonal lens. It’s very frustrating because there are people looking at vaccines for UTIs — these very expensive research projects for UTIs, which I’m all about. UTIs are a massive problem for our healthcare system. But we are not effectively using these vaginal hormone products.

My colleague out at Stanford just published a paper a couple of weeks ago in JAMA, and it looked at Medicare patients — over a million patients with Medicare with a diagnosis of a symptom of GSM. So frequency, urgency, leakage, UTI, vaginal pain, any of those — just one symptom.

MEL ROBBINS: Which means you have UTIs based on hormone fluctuation.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yep. You had a symptom of GSM. Only 9% of patients were given a prescription. 9%.

Vaginal Hormones: The “Viagra” for Women

MEL ROBBINS: So other than being very effective in preventing UTIs, what else does vaginal hormones do for a woman of any age?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Besides preventing UTIs, it’s essentially Viagra for women.

MEL ROBBINS: Why do you call it that?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Because it helps with sexual health. Viagra is actually a wonderful muscle relaxer that helps men get erections. It helps women get erections, too — and I’m happy to talk about that. It is a great relaxation drug that increases arousal. Vaginal hormones help with arousal, help with lubrication, help make sex not painful. So it’s a fabulous sex drug — best sex drug ever invented. And so I call it women’s Viagra because it truly is.

But actually, people don’t know this, but Cialis, which is Viagra’s cousin — we give to men all the time for urinary symptoms, frequency, urgency, things like that. It’s a great drug to take every day, a small dose every day for urinary symptoms. And vaginal hormones help with urinary symptoms. So it is essentially Viagra, but also prevents UTIs. So how is this information not being given?

Here’s the crazy thing. When the FDA came out and said we’re removing these warning labels on estrogen products, not one person out there said that these labels should be in place for vaginal hormones. That’s how safe and effective these products are — no one disagrees with me, which is so wild. And yet women aren’t getting what they need.

I have so many women who come to me who say, “I am so tired of thinking about my genitals all the time.” It’s an awareness. When we talk about vaginal dryness, we think of it as a cutesy old lady thing — “Oh, a little vaginal dryness.” It’s actually not true. It is a dryness so significant that it affects your quality of life day to day.

MEL ROBBINS: How do you know? Because that sounds like it’s cracking and bleeding. Like, what is enough to affect — just like thinking about dryness?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Just thinking about it, adjusting yourself, thinking about the dryness of your skin down there and other places. That’s what — remember I said like a plant needing water? The tissues, the skin, the inner tissues, the outer tissues need hormones to feel robust. And so the reality is, using these products do not hurt you. If you’re on hormones already, you can add them to your hormone regimen. If you’re not on hormones, this is not whole-body hormone therapy. It is localized low-dose hormone therapy that is safe for your great-grandmother or people with any history.

MEL ROBBINS: And so — or a college student or a high school student that’s having constant UTI issues.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And that’s where we really need to get the advocacy and the research going, because this is not just a menopause problem.

How Hormones Affect the Bladder and Urinary Tract

MEL ROBBINS: Dr. Rubin, can you just explain a little bit about how hormones impact peeing and infections? I’m still trying to understand. I kind of feel dumb that I don’t know a lot about this, but to me, I would never think that hormones have anything to do with the amount of times I go to the bathroom, or whether or not I have trouble going to the bathroom. How is it connected?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yes. So the bladder and the vagina are very close together, and they are filled with estrogen and testosterone receptors. So they are constantly looking in their environment for hormones to be around. And there are times when hormones are around a lot, and there are times when they fluctuate, and when those receptors are empty, they don’t like it. So they change.

And so without hormones, the tissue changes, the acidity changes. The vagina wants to be acidic, and if it is not acidic, the evil bacteria starts to grow. There becomes a dysbiosis — meaning the right environment of bacteria changes to what ends up being the wrong environment of bacteria.

Okay, so here’s where sex becomes important. Because now you don’t have a strong acidic base. And then if you have sex and if your partner ejaculates inside of you — well, remember, I’m a urologist — ejaculate is a big load of basic material. Now, I don’t mean basic like every man is basic — we can have that conversation. But it is a big load of high pH, because acid-base — big basic material. And so that also then throws off your microbiome even more.

MEL ROBBINS: Can I ask a question? I’m almost embarrassed.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: No, no, no, please.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. Is there testosterone in sperm?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: That’s a great question, actually. I don’t think so.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so we’re just dealing with —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s not a hormone, just the fish in the sea.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so it’s just the fish, but it’s the pH aspect.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: The pH aspect.

MEL ROBBINS: And because —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: That’s actually not a stupid question. It’s a fabulous question.

MEL ROBBINS: And because pH is one of the things that hormones help regulate. And when the pH gets whacked, regardless of whatever age you’re in, it screws up the microbiomes of your vagina and the urinary tract, which makes you more prone to infection.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Right.

MEL ROBBINS: Am I tracking correctly?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: You’re tracking correctly.

MEL ROBBINS: So if anything’s off — whether it’s pH or hormone imbalance, or you’re on birth control or acne medication, or you’re breastfeeding, and that kind of whacks your hormones —

The Truth About UTIs, Hormones, and HRT

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: …period, it may affect your microbiome, which makes you more susceptible to urinary tract infections. And so again, or dryness, which feels… Okay. This is where it’s very interesting. Sometimes it feels like you have a urinary tract infection, but actually just because you have pain, burning and irritation, oftentimes it’s not an infection.

MEL ROBBINS: What is it?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s the dryness and the scrapy rug burn from basically something hormone imbalance from rubbing against… Right. Sex is a contact sport. So if you have this hard, rigid thing or a device or fingers or whatever it is rubbing against, think of a sunburn. Think of irritated, dry, uncomfortable tissue. Guess what’s going to happen? It’s going to hurt, it’s going to burn, it’s going to be irritated.

And so we see so many people who think they have UTIs and they don’t even get examined and no one asks them questions, or they just go to urgent care and we throw antibiotics at them. We’ve lost the art of doing a physical exam on people. That’s a whole other mission of mine, is get people to know how to examine genitals. But oftentimes it’s not actually a UTI. It’s pain from the abrasions and the irritation from the act of intercourse itself.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow. And your hormones have a huge role to play in all of that.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah. And keeping the tissue strong and supportive and lubricated and thick and able to withstand the high intensity sport of sexual activity.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, based on everything you’re teaching us, I don’t know why every single woman of every single age isn’t prescribed, or hopefully soon, because of your advocacy, able to buy vaginal hormones over the counter and using it twice a week just for our overall health.

Why Every Woman Needs to Know About Vaginal Hormones

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: This is why we’re so excited about the interest in this. This is why I leave my children and my practice to fly here to come do this, because this is so important. There is nothing to sell. These are generic products. There’s no industry around this. There’s no money in this. This is truly like the public service announcement that is so needed.

All I’m doing here is taking a problem that we have always known about, with science that we have always had, with a product that is safe. And all I’m doing is packaging it and marketing it and saying every woman on earth needs to know about this.

And mind you, up until last year, all these products said that they cause stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, probable dementia, which was zero percent true for all hormones, let alone microdosing vaginal hormones. And it is so exciting because the science is truly bipartisan and scientifically backed. No one disagrees here. And to have an issue that is so impactful, that can change so many lives — it’s not like no one’s going to say I’m wrong. They’re just going to say they’re uninformed about it. Which is why we’re showing up with guidelines, we’re showing up with how to do it, and we’re doing YouTube channels,

MEL ROBBINS: Everything in the show notes.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: That’s why I can’t be quiet.

MEL ROBBINS: I’m glad you’re not. Dr. Rubin, can you talk about hormones and HRT?

The Women’s Health Initiative: How One Study Derailed Decades of Women’s Health

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I love talking about hormone therapy. I was so blessed with mentorship. This is why I mentor so much. Because this cannot die with the people above me and it cannot die with me. We must spread the information and teach as much as we can.

Hormone therapy has been around for a very long time and got a very bad reputation in the early 2000s when a big NIH study came out and said hormones cause breast cancer and cardiovascular disease. And unfortunately, the NIH did a press conference — I don’t know if you’ve ever seen an NIH press conference, I certainly haven’t seen anything else make an NIH press conference — the NIH held a press conference before the study was even published. And they got on stage and they said, “Hormones are dangerous. They cause breast cancer and cardiovascular disease. And we’re halting this study early.”

Well, then the paper shows up at all the — this was before social media — so the paper shows up at the doctor’s offices. This was in 2002, I believe. The Women’s Health Initiative, which is what the study was called, it was top of the fold. Every newspaper. Matt Lauer got on TV, every news agency got on TV and said, “Throw your hormones in the garbage. These are going to kill you.”

MEL ROBBINS: And it’s really important, especially if you’re not my age or older, to understand that this one incident in the media and in medicine profoundly negatively impacted women’s lives for decades.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Overnight, hormone prescriptions went to zero. A billion dollar industry went to zero. And we have known forever that hormone therapy prevents fractures, prevents osteoporosis, massively helps with hot flashes and night sweats and sleep and genital and urinary health. That’s what hormone therapy is for — for symptoms, for women who suffer. And so many women suffer for a very long time. And this press conference made all of that go away in one day.

And once the papers came to doctors’ offices and the ones who actually read it said, “Wait a minute, that’s not what this says. That doesn’t make any sense. And my clinic is full of hormone therapy patients and they all look pretty damn good. I don’t understand what they’re talking about.”

Well, what ended up happening was they misinterpreted the data so badly and they marketed it so badly and we could never get back from that. And actually, because of that one press conference, the FDA at the time put a blanket label with a big box around it on all hormone products — everything that’s a hormone product — that says these products cause stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, probable dementia.

Well, that study was based on just one pill, one dose of hormone therapy. It had nothing to do with the patch that you’re on or the progesterone that you take. It had nothing to do with testosterone. It had nothing to do with modern day hormone therapy. Especially it didn’t have anything to do with vaginal hormone therapy, which is localized, low dose. And even in that study, women who only took vaginal hormones had no cancer risk, no breast cancer risk. That was published. So this one study changed the course and trajectory.

MEL ROBBINS: Just the study — it was the way the media reported it and the freaking hysteria that it created.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Hysteria.

MEL ROBBINS: And for two decades it was just believed that HRT was dangerous and you shouldn’t do it and it’s going to cause cancer and all this stuff. And so millions and millions and millions of women who would have benefited, whose quality of life would have improved, were either denied it, not offered it, too scared to ask for it. And isn’t it true that even some of the researchers came out and said the research was flawed?

Generations of Doctors Left Without the Tools to Help Women

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah. And they came out and said, “Wait a minute, we didn’t all agree to this. We didn’t all agree to the way this was written and how it was marketed.”

And the tragedy — and this is an American tragedy, actually a world tragedy — the tragedy is not only did women lose access and never get access to these therapies, but we now have generations of doctors who never learned how to write prescriptions or ask the questions. Ask any doctor. We get no training — and the data is very clear on this — we get no training in medical school. We get no training in our residencies. That’s even gynecology and primary care, where you would expect training. Forget the orthopedic surgeon who’s dealing with the fractures, or the neurologist who’s dealing with headaches, or sleep doctors who are dealing with the sleep issues. Hormone therapy is not in their toolbox to offer.

And modern day hormone therapy really has much lower risk than the hormone therapy that was studied in that big study. So even those hormones were pretty safe. The hormones we use today are even safer. And so the tragedy is all around, because we have so much work to do — not just to teach women why they should go ask for it, but it is likely that they’re going to show up to a clinician who doesn’t know how to write the damn prescription.

And again, I say this all the time: if I can do this as a urologist, you can do this as an ER doctor, as a primary care doctor, as a gynecologist. And so I think my thesis statement of our work today is there are no grownups coming to save the day. Okay? There’s no grownups. We are the grownups. And we have to roll up our sleeves and do the work ourselves sometimes.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I think one of the things that is incredibly fascinating about what you’ve been teaching us is that if you’re female, you either go to a primary care gynecologist — I don’t even think about going to a urologist unless I’m having severe bladder problems. And yet what we now know about hormones is that for women in particular, your hormone health is a part of the equation for every single medical issue that you face, whether it’s a UTI or frozen shoulder or brain fog or brittle bones or any symptoms that you’re feeling downstairs. All of it.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And that makes perfect logical sense, Mel, because you have hormone receptors in your eyeballs, in your ears, in your hair follicles, in your gut, in your bladder, in your genitals, in your bones and muscles and tendons. There are hormone receptors everywhere. And so, of course. But if your doctor never learned how to ask the questions or write the prescription, it will never be a part of your toolbox.

And so that’s not to say all medical problems are due to hormone issues. Of course not. But how can the dermatologist deal with inflammation and not talk about estrogen therapy? How can the orthopedic surgeon or the bone health doctor talk about osteoporosis but not estrogen?

Postpartum Depression, PMS, and the Hormonal Connection

MEL ROBBINS: Well, I’m sitting here even just thinking about the fact that after I had my daughter Sawyer, I had severe postpartum depression. Nobody even considered estrogen and hormone therapy as part of — like, maybe something that we should be talking about.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Actually, this is where it gets even more… Okay, so I’m going to tell you two stories that are going to make you really angry.

Story number one is there are new FDA approved medications for postpartum depression. They are based in progesterone based therapies. They are based in hormonal therapies. I started a course — it’s online, people can take it whenever they want — on how to prescribe hormone therapy. And I had psychiatrists pour into my DMs saying, “My malpractice insurance said I wouldn’t be covered if I prescribed hormone therapy.” I said, “What are you talking about? Mental health is so helped with hormone therapy. You are crazy for not learning hormone therapy.”

MEL ROBBINS: If you also think about it — just think about PMS and the ups and downs of your moods and the fact that all of the symptoms around PMS, whether it’s moodiness or it’s cramping or it’s dryness or it’s bloating — again.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So for you thinking that all your care should be by gynecology, who also don’t know how to prescribe hormone therapy — I mean, some do, and if they take extra training — where are the psychiatrists, where are the neurologists? When you have depression, you go to that person. Not so. So it’s a nightmare. We’re living in a nightmare because not enough clinicians know why this is important.

A Moment of Hope: The FDA Box Label Removed

So one good piece — I want to say one piece of hope, because this is actually beautiful. The head of the gynecology association — it changes every year or two — happened to be this amazing doctor from Yale, an old school male gynecologist who loves hormone therapy, understands hormone therapy, understands why the studies were misinterpreted. And he happened to be in charge of the gynecology association the day the announcement came out.

And when all of the newspapers went to him and said, “What is the gynecology association’s position?” he stood up and he said, “This is good for women. Period. End of sentence. Now they can talk to their doctors about what they really need. And these labels were never appropriate.”

It was so good. But he said something further that was so beautiful. He said, “Those warning labels stopped decades of research. They stopped decades of doctors wanting to do this, because how can you prescribe something that is safe, but the box from the FDA says stroke, blood clots, heart attacks, dementia? How can you get away with prescribing it?” We did, because we knew the data so well. But the regular clinicians are not going to do that.

These box labels just got removed on my mom’s birthday, February 12, 2026. May she rest in peace. This box labeling gets removed just this past February. Now the real work begins. Now we get to teach people how to do this. Now we get to teach the clinicians. Now we convince the rheumatologists and the neurologists and the orthopedic surgeons why this is essential for them to give good care for women. And so we’re going to teach them what we’ve known for 30 years, and women are going to do better.

Testosterone: The Missing Piece of the Conversation

MEL ROBBINS: Let’s talk about testosterone.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Love it.

The Four Buckets of Hormone Therapy

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so who is it for? What does it help? And what are the biggest misconceptions, Dr. Rubin, that you hear?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so we have four major buckets when we’re talking about hormone therapy. Okay? Whole body estrogen.

MEL ROBBINS: What’s that?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Estrogen patch, estrogen pill, estrogen pellet or estrogen gels. Any type of higher dose estrogen that’s there to prevent osteoporosis, help with hot flashes, night sweats. It ends up helping with your hair, skin and nails as well. But it’s really meant for preventing osteoporosis or treating your hot flashes and night sweats. That’s whole body estrogen.

Then there is, if you have a uterus, or you want to consider it even if you don’t have a uterus, there’s whole body progesterone. Now, progesterone protects your uterus from thickening. If the estrogen is used, it thickens the uterine lining. The progesterone keeps the lining thin, prevents uterine cancer. So if you have a uterus, you need some kind of progesterone. And it also can help with sleep and mood. So I don’t know if you’ve noticed any sleep benefits with your progesterone, but it can help with sleep. So that’s why some people without a uterus like to take it. But estrogen and progesterone is like yin yang, especially if you have a uterus.

So there’s whole body estrogen, whole body progesterone, whole body testosterone, which we’re going to talk about right now. And the fourth bucket we’ve talked about is vaginal hormones, which is separate from all the other three. And so the toolbox is, you can have some of the toolbox. You don’t need to have all of the toolbox.

MEL ROBBINS: You said there are four types. You’ve got full body estrogen, full body progesterone, you’ve got vaginal estrogen and full body testosterone. So let’s talk about testosterone. Who’s it for?

Testosterone: A Human Hormone, Not a Gendered One

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so testosterone is a human hormone. It is not a gendered hormone. That was very old politics from a very long time ago and we have to move on. Men make estrogen and testosterone, women make estrogen and testosterone. Let’s quit talking about how one is for boys and one is for girls. It’s not true. It was never true. Move on.

Testosterone is a human hormone that we all make regularly. But here’s where politics gets in. Testicles make testosterone and adrenal glands — these cute little hat-like organs that live above your kidneys — also make testosterone. So for women, their ovaries make testosterone and their adrenal glands make testosterone. For men, their testicles make testosterone.

For women, as they get into their 30s, your testosterone starts to naturally drop. For men, there is also an age-related decline, but it is not as sharp or as castration-like as estrogen is for women. I always use a gas tank analogy. Men get to, sometimes, half a tank, and if they’re really symptomatic, they’ll get a quarter of a tank. They never get to zero. Women’s estrogens do get to zero. Their testosterone doesn’t get to zero, but it does drop in your 30s.

My thesis statement on testosterone: it’s not that serious, people. We want it to be serious. It feels serious. There’s all this emotion, there’s all this stuff going on about testosterone. It truly is not that scary or serious. We do many scary, serious things as doctors. This is the least scary thing that I do.

So for everybody, right? If a man comes to see me and he’s feeling kind of down, he falls asleep at dinner, his erections aren’t as strong, his libido is getting a little low, and his testosterone is below 300 and he has symptoms, I’m going to give him testosterone and he’s going to feel amazing.

The testosterone deficiency can happen at any point. So if you have any symptoms of testosterone deficiency like I just described, you should get a blood test at any age. Symptoms are low libido, low energy, erectile dysfunction, osteopenia — sexual symptoms, energy symptoms, mood symptoms. We know testosterone helps men’s moods.

For men, there are guidelines, there are about 27 different products, there are different ways to do it — injections, pills, gels, pellets — all these FDA-approved things. But for women, we have no FDA-approved testosterone product.

MEL ROBBINS: None.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Zero.

MEL ROBBINS: Really?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s approved in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and England.

MEL ROBBINS: Wait, why?

Why There Is No FDA-Approved Testosterone for Women

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: There was a study that happened. A billion dollars went into it. They studied testosterone and the FDA came back and said, “Okay, there’s five years of data, it shows that it works for libido, it shows that it’s safe. There were no major scary things that happened. Let’s go back and talk about it.” And the FDA came back and said, “You know, women have breast tissue.” It was around the time that the Women’s Health Initiative study came out, 2002. And they said, “Denied. We need five more years of data and another billion-dollar study.”

I don’t know if you know anybody who works in pharma, but they were not going to do another billion-dollar study, and no one was going to put in another five years. So it died. It’s approved in Australia, it’s approved in New Zealand, it’s approved in South Africa and it’s approved in England. And if it’s safe enough for those people, and we have global consensus — there is actually a paper called the Global Consensus on Testosterone Therapy in Women, you can read it, just Google that — do we agree on anything as a globe? We agree on nothing as a globe. But that paper says global consensus that testosterone therapy is safe for women and works.

DHEA: Vaginal Estrogen’s Powerful Alternative

MEL ROBBINS: Since we’ve talked about vaginal estrogen and we’ve talked about testosterone, I’m now leaning in going, well, if I just want to reduce it down to one thing — if I was going to do both vaginal estrogen just as something preventative and for my hormone health, and I’m thinking about doing testosterone, which now, doc, you got me thinking about doing testosterone — is DHEA an option?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I’m so glad you asked, because here’s where dose matters. Vaginal DHEA is again micro-dosing into the vagina to help with the local microbiome, prevent UTIs, and pain with sex. It doesn’t create a high enough testosterone level to help with your libido the way that we get from whole body testosterone. And we don’t think that the whole body testosterone is high enough to get to the vaginal issues, which is why your patch isn’t strong enough to fix your GSM symptoms.

So there is a role for, instead of vaginal estrogen, just using vaginal DHEA. You don’t have to do both. You could just use vaginal DHEA. The reason why we talk about estrogen so much is it’s less expensive. So often patients can’t get the vaginal DHEA. Hey, if you’re listening, world, we would love vaginal DHEA to be over the counter. We would love for it to be affordable or covered by insurance, because again, these are life-saving therapies that should not cost hundreds of dollars for our patients.

MEL ROBBINS: So should you think about the DHEA as like vaginal estrogen plus? Because vaginal estrogen alone isn’t doing the job. And one of the reasons why we started with vaginal estrogen is because there has been a lot of advocacy, thanks to you and others, that has made the price drop down. And now hopefully, fingers crossed, it might even become something that’s over the counter.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: No question. And you understand it so perfectly. It is sort of that plus, because we don’t often use it first line just for accessibility. If all options were on the table, the vaginal DHEA would be my first choice, because it adds the androgen onto it, which the tissue needs — both estrogen and testosterone. So we like DHEA. I love DHEA, but I don’t have access to it for all my patients. And we have such a broad audience here, that’s why I don’t sort of start with that — because why dangle something in front of you that you can’t access?

How to Know If Your Testosterone Is Low

MEL ROBBINS: Okay, so how do I know my testosterone is low?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s safe for women, it works for women. The science — this is not cardiovascular research, so it’s not as precise as we wish it were, because no money goes into women’s health and we don’t have a product. The way the guidelines state is that we check a total testosterone, both in men and women, not because there is a number specifically that will tell me that you have low testosterone or not low testosterone. But if you come to see me and we talk, and it comes up that your libido is low, and you’re doing great on estrogen and progesterone therapy but you feel like it’s not perfect — libido is the biggest driver that we see with the most data — I would check a total testosterone. And as long as the total testosterone was not astronomically high, then you would qualify for a trial of testosterone therapy.

We use generic, very inexpensive male testosterone, and we dose it out for a woman, which is about one tenth the dose. And what happens after about four to six months — sometimes earlier, but in my opinion, it takes about four to six months — that’s when women come back to see me and they say, “I feel like myself again.”

They say, “Oh my gosh, my sex dreams are back. Oh my gosh, arousal is easier. That orgasm was easier. I could actually orgasm without a device. Oh my gosh, Dr. Rubin, I watch TV and my body just felt the tingles again.” The data shows, and people report, that their stress incontinence gets a little better. The urethra — the tube that you pee through — is surrounded by testosterone receptors also.

MEL ROBBINS: Really?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Think muscle, right? If you’re building muscle, you’re building muscle in your pelvic floor, you’re building muscle in your urethra. So the other thing my patients will say is, “I feel like the gains I’m making” — and I see you working hard, Mel, at your exercise — “the gains that I’m making, I notice them a little bit more. I get a little more credit.” Because the data is mostly around libido, but libido is a mood. So there’s more data that’s come out of our friends in England about mood improvements.

MEL ROBBINS: Mental health — seeing in your patients, other than the libido, we’re seeing people —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Say their mood is better. We’re seeing their urinary symptoms are better, their arousal and orgasms are better, their lubrication is better. We definitely see improvements in libido. And I would say the funniest part of it is the thing I see the most is the words: “I feel like me.” And that’s the magic words, right?

So estrogen and progesterone — you feel better? Yes, like a lot better, like magically better. I often start with estrogen and progesterone for many people, because the hot flashes are so bad, the sleep is so bad. So if you can get that, they feel so much better. But the testosterone, when we add it, is — “I’m back to me.”

I have a patient that I had recently. I just love this so much. She said to me — because remember, testosterone drops in your 30s —

MEL ROBBINS: It’s not —

The Transformative Power of Testosterone: Real Patient Stories

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yes, testosterone drops in your 30s, it’s not about menopause. It’s actually age related. So in your 30s, if you have low libido, pain with sex, changes in your arousal or orgasm in your 30s, there is likely a biological basis and it is likely has something to do with testosterone.

So this woman comes to see me, she’s in her 60s, menopause consult, typical menopause consult. And we’re giving her whole body estrogen, whole body progesterone, testosterone, vaginal hormones. And she comes to see me and she says, “Dr. Rubin, I used to be able to orgasm three magical times. And they went away, and they went away in my 30s. And I always thought it was from my headache medicine. I was on amitriptyline at the time and I lost my ability to have three magical orgasms. Well, Dr. Rubin, six months into testosterone, I’m in my early 60s, they’re back.”

And it was just, she had never even thought that she could ask for them to come back. And it was so beautiful because that’s not what brought her in to see me. And yet it was the unintended magical consequences of this therapy that is not FDA approved for women. Global consensus that it works and not that serious. There’s no major risks, there’s no major side effects.

Actually, I believe very strongly that when you give women information about how their bodies work, they make just excellent healthcare decisions for themselves. I’m not here to tell you what to take, what to do. I’m here to share the menu with you. I’m here to share the toolbox with you and to let you decide what you want to put into your body.

I have a patient who actually lives in my neighborhood and I never see her in the neighborhood because she’s always at work and she’s busy. But one day she’s walking her dog and she sees me walking home from school, dropping the kids off at school. And she runs up to me, and I only know her from the exam room and everything. And she runs up to me, she says, “Dr. Rubin, I’m sorry to bother you on your walk. I just had to tell you, my testosterone finally kicked in.”

I said, “Oh, that’s so great. How long did it take?”

She said, “It took five months, Dr. Rubin, but it finally kicked in. And I have to tell you something. I finally feel back to me and guess what? I just quit my job because I’m starting my own thing.”

And she was so excited to just quit her job, start her own consulting business and kick all of the ass. And that’s what I see every day in my clinic. When you take someone who has castrate levels of hormones or fluctuating levels of hormones, and they choose to use different things to help with their quality of life and their sexual health, their health, their hormonal health, whatever it is, they get this energy, they get this strength, this inner strength. It ends up helping their relationships, it helps their work, it helps them at home with their children. It allows them to sleep, it allows them to make decisions not in survival.

And I think that’s the beautiful thing. You watch them go from, “I’m just here because it hurts. I’m here because I get UTIs. I’m here because I’m in survival.” And then I get to sit there with popcorn and watch them get to thriving and making great decisions for themselves.

And I want that for everyone. I can’t be everyone’s doctor. I’ve tried. It doesn’t work. But I want every woman to have access to what my neighbor had access to. Why not? It’s evidence based. Most of it’s FDA approved. Maybe not for women, but it’s actually FDA approved. It works. There’s decades of research. Why can’t we have that process for everyone?

So I love that story because it just shows that it’s so much more than libido. And it’s about strength and hope and agency. That’s what we’re doing here.

How Is Testosterone Prescribed for Women?

MEL ROBBINS: So how do you prescribe testosterone?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so again, not that serious. It feels scary because — okay, again, politics. In the 1990s, there was a big doping scandal where all these bodybuilders got testosterone in trouble.

MEL ROBBINS: How does that have to do with women’s health?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It has a lot to do with women’s health because these bodybuilders got us in trouble. And everyone was afraid that everyone was abusing testosterone. So the FDA and the DEA, the Drug Enforcement Agency, put a big old label on testosterone that made it a controlled substance. So when you prescribe testosterone, you need a DEA license like you are prescribing opioids. So that provides challenges for people writing the prescriptions, which is why we’re advocating to the FDA to change that. Maybe by the time this airs, they’ll have made an announcement that they’ve changed it.

But anyway, we use generic testosterone. There’s lots of ways to give testosterone, but this is the most inexpensive way that we have found. This costs about $8 per month. Because a tube of this generic testosterone — my male patients would use the whole tube every day. They’d squeeze the whole tube out, rub it all over their chest. When we tell women to do it, you use bigger than a pea size, sort of a glob of testosterone. It’s a gel. So you just rub it on your leg, you wash your hands and you go on with your day.

So for me, I pee first thing in the morning. I have my testosterone on a shelf right where I pee. My ankle’s exposed. I put a blob. It’s 0.5 milliliters. So if you want to be super precise, you can take a syringe and fill it up with the testosterone. It’s half a milliliter. You could push half a milliliter. It’s a little bigger than a pea, kind of a blob, like a lima bean, I would say. It’s not so precise. That’s why we need a product and we need actual testosterone for women.

But it’s not that serious, people, because it’s not risky. We give transgender patients 10 times the dose of testosterone and their health outcomes are fine. So this is 1/10 the dose. We don’t give 10 times the amount of aspirin to people.

MEL ROBBINS: People said it takes four months for most people to start to even feel it.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s wild. So there’s really, we don’t see many side effects. I always say think horny teenagers. So sometimes oily skin, acne, hair growth, hair loss, but even then, that’s at much higher doses for most people.

This is where we get nervous about things like pellets. I’m not against pellets. For anyone who doesn’t know, pellets are these very expensive, almost look like Tic Tacs that are placed underneath your butt cheeks, basically. And they give you long acting hormones over a few months. And they often cost a lot of money. And they are not regulated by the FDA. And if the dose is too high, you can’t take them out. So that’s when you can see side effects. So we typically recommend this more generic, easier way to do it so that you don’t get the side effects.

What Medicine Has Ignored About Women’s Bodies

MEL ROBBINS: I’d love to have you talk a little bit about what you wish we knew that medicine has ignored.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: There was a full page article in the New York Times science section in 2022. It was about how I give women a mirror and I show them their own genitals and I talk about their body parts. I say, “This is your labia majora. This is your labia minora. This is your clitoris.”

The title of the article was, “Half the World Has a Clitoris. Why Don’t Doctors Study It?” And the brilliant author, Rachel Gross, who is so magnificently brilliant, wrote a book called Vagina Obscura. And every chapter goes into why we don’t know anything about the uterus, why we don’t know anything about the clitoris, why we don’t know anything about the ovaries. She does a beautiful, beautiful job. She’s truly brilliant.

And she wrote this article in 2022, and like most things in our world, the New York Times was like, “We don’t want to publish this. Nobody’s interested in this. This isn’t interesting to our readers.” And it was the most shared article in 2022. It went viral.

MEL ROBBINS: That doesn’t surprise me. And I’ll tell you why. I’ve had three children. I am 57 years old. I have never, never once in my life had a medical doctor, a gynecologist, a nurse practitioner, or any healthcare professional ever hold up a mirror and show me that part of my body. Ever.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And that’s why it went viral, because it’s so simple. And we find that still today, we give women access to their own body. So while I’m examining them, “This is your labia majora. This is your labia minora. This is your clitoris. This is your clitoral hood. This is your vulva, vulvar vestibule. This is your pelvic floor.” And we can go through all of those details.

Clitoral Adhesions: A Condition Affecting 1 in 4 Women

In 2017, we looked at thousands of pictures of women’s genitals, and we found that 23% of all women who come into the clinic have what’s called clitoral adhesions.

MEL ROBBINS: What is that?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so I always —

MEL ROBBINS: 23% is one out of every four women.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: One out of every four women has a clitoral adhesion. Okay. So I always wear sleeves for this purpose. So for everybody not here, I have my sleeve over my fist.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay. So she’s pulled her sweater over her arm.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So her arm, you cannot see my hand.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes. It’s hiding in there.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay. So every clitoris has a prepuce or a hood or a foreskin, just like a penis that is not circumcised. Now, a penis that is not circumcised — when a man gets an erection, the foreskin goes back behind the head of the penis, and then it looks like a circumcised penis. That mushroom head that goes around a penis — you can pull back. And then with a foreskin, you should pull it all the way back so you can see the whole head of the penis.

Well, the clitoris and the penis are the same organ. It’s the exact same organ. They’re made up of all of the same tissues. They look the same under the microscope. They’re the same. So every clitoris has a hood. And you should be able to pull the hood back to see the whole head of the clitoris, which looks like the head of a penis — it has a rim around the edge called the corona. Same as with a penis. But 23% of the time, you cannot pull it all the way back. It’s stuck.

MEL ROBBINS: Really? And that’s what a clitoral adhesion is. It means the hood of it is —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It’s stuck.

MEL ROBBINS: And how could it be?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so in 2017, we were the first to publish that it is either mild, where you can see most of the head of the clitoris, moderate, where you can see a little less, or very severe, where you can’t see it at all. And you can’t pull it back. Okay, 23% of the time.

MEL ROBBINS: 23% of the time, yeah.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: This was published in 2017, and that was all of the world’s literature on this problem.

MEL ROBBINS: If you have clitoral adhesion —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah.

MEL ROBBINS: Does it impact your ability to orgasm? Like, what —

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So up until 2017, we had no idea. This was just an observation. Okay, 23% of people have this. So what does it mean? Is it normal? No doctor is taught how to examine the clitoris or ever routinely examines the clitoris. Can you imagine — I’m a urologist — if I was told, “Don’t examine the penis, don’t touch a man’s penis. You might make him uncomfortable.”

What if you have a clitoral problem? What kind of doctor do you go see? There is no doctor trained in the clitoris. There is a part of your body —

MEL ROBBINS: They don’t train you in this.

The Clitoris: An Overlooked Organ

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: No, no one. In fact, when you are a medical student learning to do a pelvic exam, no one teaches you to go near the clitoris. So a penis, lots of things can go wrong with it, right? So much can go wrong with a penis. Couldn’t all the same things go wrong with a clitoris? Of course they can, but nobody’s looking.

So 2017, you are Dr. Rubin. I’m looking, people. 2017. All we knew was that people have these adhesions. Then I had three brilliant — oh my God, Mel, these students are going to change the world. Three brilliant medical students who came to me and said, “Rubin, we got to know more.” So they wrote up the IRB, they looked at all the data, and we do a very simple procedure in the office. And you can go to the Video Journal of Sexual Medicine to watch us do this procedure. It’s published.

And we do this procedure where it’s kind of — it’s not that serious, Mel. It’s kind of like, have you ever woken up and you’ve had eye crusties? So to the point where your eye is shut? Okay, that’s an emergency. You’re blind, you can’t see, you’ve got eye crust, but you’re like, “I don’t need to go to the emergency room. I can just pick off these crusties and open my eye.” It’s essentially what we’re doing here. We stretch the tissue, we open it up so that you can separate between the plane between the hood and the head. So we do an office-based procedure. Mild numbing agent. It’s not surgery. There’s no cutting, there’s no sutures or any stitches or anything like that.

And so the medical students asked these patients and said, “Well, what happened?” Well, some of these patients come with pain. They have pain in their clitoris. They feel like there’s a hair in there. If you ever had an eyelash in your eye, it’s not cancer, but you can’t do anything unless that eyelash is removed. So we have people who every time they try to stimulate or touch their clitoris, it hurts, it’s irritated, it’s uncomfortable. How many people are walking around saying, “I don’t like oral sex,” because there’s schmutz under their clitoris and it irritates the crap out of them? A lot of women, Mel. A lot of women. 23%, in fact, don’t like their clitoris being touched because it’s irritating.

And this, by the way, my God — some have symptoms of decreased arousal, decreased orgasms. So we asked them all. The data is remarkable. 60 to 70% improvement in arousal, orgasm satisfaction. 70% decrease in pain if you had it.

And the kicker — so these students are presenting this research to me. It’s my research, but they actually looked at it. I was drinking water, I’ll never forget this one. I was drinking water and they showed me this piece of data that made me cartoon spit out water all over my computer. Because of the patients who had never had an orgasm in their lives, six were able to orgasm with clitoral stimulation after this procedure. I couldn’t even believe it myself. And I’m the one doing the procedure.

A Seven-Year-Old’s Story: The Importance of Being Believed

Since then, some of my colleagues have replicated the data. We’ve gotten the word out. So more people are showing up with these issues. This is not a rare problem. We were just at the Women’s Sexual Health conference this year. It was in Long Beach, California. And for the very first time in history, they did video abstracts where we presented video research. And the very first video abstract was a case report that our team did of a 7-year-old that came to see us from western Canada. Their parents found us from our research that we had done.

And this little girl, since she had language, said, “There is something stuck under my clitoris.” When she learned the word for clitoris, she would point to it, she would talk about it, and it was so distressing that the parents were beside themselves. Everything was a fight. She went to doctors in Canada and they tried to help but they didn’t know what they were looking at. And they offered her cognitive behavioral therapy. In the notes, the seven-year-old — they said, “You need cognitive behavioral therapy.”

The parents never gave up. They believed this child. Thank God for these parents. They’re just the most amazing people in the world. They brought her to my clinic. I heard the story and I gave her this mirror. I actually gave her this mirror and I showed her these models and I’m talking to the parents and the child and we’re talking about it with the mirror. We then examined her and she saw everything we were doing and we saw that she had a completely — like it was completely closed. And I said, “Is this where your pain is?” And she said yes. And she saw it and she saw what was happening and she saw my models of what normal was. And she saw pictures of normal.

And you saw this seven-year-old girl feel believed for the first time truly in her life by a doctor, right there in that moment. And so we ended up bringing her to the operating room because I didn’t want to do a procedure on her while she was awake. And she woke up and her pain was gone. Completely gone. She stopped complaining, she stopped pulling, she stopped agonizing. It was gone.

But we have a huge problem here because the doctors in Canada didn’t know how to do this. The doctors in America don’t know how to do this. And these parents can’t keep coming here, right? This is like eye crusties — the eye crusties might come back. They can’t afford to come to Washington D.C. every time this happens. This is not a rare problem. This is 23% of people on an organ that no one has ever bothered to study.

The Impact of Treating Clitoral Adhesions

MEL ROBBINS: What was the result of diagnosing the clitoral adhesion and then doing a simple office procedure that changed it?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So in this study — and this was again only 41 patients in this study, since there have been published reports of even more patients than this — we had 76% improvement in sexual arousal, 64% improvement in the ability to orgasm. 38% of the patients who had never had an orgasm were able to orgasm after this procedure. 83% were very satisfied with the procedure. And this isn’t major surgery, right? This isn’t like body mutilation. This is literally like opening your eye after having eye crusties.

MEL ROBBINS: But more importantly, none of us know.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Nobody knows.

MEL ROBBINS: One in four women have this and it’s impacting your life or your ability to orgasm or experience pleasure, or you’re feeling discomfort. To know that a simple procedure and just being aware of this has such profound positive impacts.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Listen, we need more data. But the very first thing people can do is get a mirror at home and look at your own body.

MEL ROBBINS: Why don’t you show us what we’re supposed to say?

Know Your Body: Anatomy and the Importance of Proper Language

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So, all right, this is really important, Mel, because you don’t go to a doctor for face pain. Okay? The reason you don’t go to a doctor for face pain is because you have a lot of parts on your face. And there are a lot of different doctors that you go to for your face. So you don’t show up at the dentist because you have eye pain. You don’t show up at the dermatologist because you have a lip problem or a teeth problem or a throat issue.

People don’t even have the language for their genitals. They say “down there,” they use innuendo, they have some stupid name for it. Or, God forbid, they call it a vagina, where the parts that you can see are the vulva, not even the vagina. And “vulva” is a stupid name, too, because there’s no vulva for men. The more you know your own body parts, the more you, as a patient, can show up and say, “There is a problem with my clitoral hood. There is a problem with my vulvar vestibule.”

MEL ROBBINS: What is a vulvar vestibule, exactly?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: You don’t even know what it is. How are you going to show up to the doctor when that is the most common reason people have pain with sex?

MEL ROBBINS: Wait, the most common reason people have pain with sex is the vulvar vestibule?

Understanding the Pelvic Floor

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Pain in the vulvar vestibule. What is that exactly? Mel, let’s talk anatomy. My favorite topic in the world. So this is a pelvis, okay? This is a pelvis. I’m holding up a pelvis. You’ve got these big bones, and the pelvis is basically surrounded by big, giant muscles, which we call the pelvic floor. It’s basically a bowl. The pelvis is a bowl, and the lining of the bowl is filled with thick, big, giant muscles.

And I don’t know about Boston — I trained in Boston, I went to college in Boston, did medical school in Boston — but, man, in D.C. we have a lot of tight asses. And what happens is these pelvic floor muscles can get really tight. Just like your neck muscles can get tight or your back muscles can get tight. And when you have tight muscles in your pelvis, it can cause constipation, it can cause urinary frequency, urinary urgency, and pain with sex, because these muscles surround the hole that you are trying to have a speculum exam or a tampon or devices or a penis or whatever you want to put in there.

The rectum is where poop comes out of. And if that is tight, it’s hard to get poop out. And so it can hurt or it can cause constipation. And we spend all day long using our pelvic floors and not exercising them, not training them. And if they have a problem — or say a watermelon comes out of them like a child’s head — we don’t even think about rehab. If you got a knee replacement, you would go to physical therapy three times a week. If you have three children come out of your vagina, or out of your abdominal muscles if you have a C-section, barely anyone gets told to go to rehab and retrain their muscles. Never. But it’s the most important thing in the world.

So pelvic floor physical therapists are highly trained professionals who are trained to rehabilitate and help these muscles if they’re too tight, if they’re too weak, if they are not working — like any muscles in the body can have problems. These muscles are no different. Does that make sense, Mel?

MEL ROBBINS: Very much so.

A Tour of the Vulva

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Okay, so it’s all muscle. And then on top of the muscle is the part that you can see. So if you take a mirror — so this is a model, a very silicone model of a vulva. And you have a labia majora. Right. So this is the labia majora. It’s just skin and under the outer lips — the outer labia. And it’s just skin. But if you push on it, the muscles are underneath. Then you have the labia minora, which a lot of people call lips. I don’t know why. I find it kind of icky. I call them wings.

MEL ROBBINS: Wings. Okay. Wings just sounds like the thing that I was calling. So I was calling it the wrong thing.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: That’s okay. So labia majora is the pad that’s sort of outside of the labia minora, and that flattens out in menopause, by the way. We don’t really know why, but it can get flattened. Then there’s the labia minora, or those inner wings. And those come in all shapes and sizes, but they’re hormonally sensitive.

MEL ROBBINS: They’re hormonally sensitive.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Babies have very small ones. You grow them in puberty and they resorb and disappear in menopause.

MEL ROBBINS: They get smaller in menopause.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: They get smaller in menopause. So remember, when you play with hormones, there are consequences. So likely birth control affects the size of the labia. Likely things like spironolactone, likely breastfeeding — all the changes with hormones can probably change the size of the labia.

So when women go get surgery to alter the size of their labia — they do. I beg — it’s a billion dollar industry, Mel. Where have you been? Labiaplasties are one of the most common procedures. Women will show up to get their labias operated on because they feel they’re too floppy or they get in the way. They can be uncomfortable for women. And if you want to do whatever you want with your body, you do whatever you want. But there are nerves in there that are important for sexual health. And so we see a lot of patients who think they’re abnormal when really big labia are hormonally healthy labia. So we don’t educate on what normal labia are.

If you follow those inner wings up, you get to the hood of the clitoris. Okay. So you follow the inner wings, the inner labia up, and you get to the hood of the clitoris. If you pull back those wings, you will see the very tip — the tip of the head of the clitoris. So right here, you follow the labia up, and you get to the tip, which is like the tip of the iceberg.

So penises, right, have a tip of the head of the penis. That’s not the only part that you touch during sex or intimacy. Right. There’s this whole shaft thing. And actually, penises — there’s the shaft, and then they split into two, and they go into legs that go all the way to a man’s butt bones. Well, guess what? The clitoris is the same.

MEL ROBBINS: It splits into two and goes—

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: It splits into two and goes all the way down to your butt bones. So if you go back and forth on your butt bones and you feel your sits bones.

MEL ROBBINS: Yeah.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: That’s where your clitoris inserts.

MEL ROBBINS: Shut up.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Which means there is a reason why vibrators feel so good anywhere along the lines of the labia majora, because that’s where your clitoris lives. So the tip of the iceberg. But the legs are underneath the labia majora, so they go down the whole length of the wings.

MEL ROBBINS: Whoa.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So it basically sits like that.

MEL ROBBINS: Wow.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And so this is why. But it’s all underneath the surface, my friends. If a penis were completely buried and there was nothing to touch, nothing to hold, how would a man have an orgasm? Well, the vibrator companies would be gajillionaires, not just billionaires. But the point is, is your clitoris — which is a penis, it’s the same thing — how do you fully activate it? Well, you have to activate it from underneath the surface. And you’ve had wonderful guests on that have talked about pleasure and things like that. But the truth is, is that this is not the canal, the vagina, which is where penetration happens.

MEL ROBBINS: Yes.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: And that’s why so few women orgasm with penetration. It’s not because they’re broken. It’s because that’s not how orgasm works.

So the more our patients can understand how orgasm works, understand their own anatomy, understand what feels good for them. I have never had a man come to see me, Mel. I see a lot of men. I’ve never had a man come to see me and say, “Dr. Rubin, I’m broken. I can’t have an orgasm. I’m just rubbing my inner thigh over and over again, and no matter how hard I rub my inner thigh, I can’t orgasm.”

Why have I never had that consult? Because every man knows he has to stimulate his penis to orgasm. Yet I have women come to see me and say, “I mean, penetration, and it’s not doing anything for me.” Well, a little up, a little outside, right? Like you might need vibration. This is normal. And so anyway, education is so important here because we educate boys and men how a penis works. And there’s no doctor who examines the clitoris.

The Vulvar Vestibule: The Most Important Part of the Body You’ve Never Heard Of

MEL ROBBINS: Dr. Rubin, what is the vulvar vestibule? Is it the wings? Is that what that is?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: No. Okay, so you go to the clitoris, you pull back, see if you have adhesions. Well, now we keep opening those wings.

MEL ROBBINS: Okay.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: There is a rim of tissue that surrounds the inside lining of the labia. So if you spread like a book, those labia, you spread it open. It’s everything you can see at the surface. So the urethra, the tube through, and the tissue above it, around it and below. The opening of the hole that the vagina is in is called the vulvar vestibule.

This tissue is the most important part of the body that you’ve never heard of before. Why is it important? Because the labia is skin. It’s tough like skin. The vulvar vestibule is delicate and thin, and it is actually made up of bladder tissue. And so just like your mouth — the outside of your cheek and the inside of your cheek are different — the skin of the labia is very tough and safe. That vulvar vestibule is thin, fragile, hormonally sensitive, and it’s bladder tissue.

So if that is dry and irritated and doesn’t have hormones and scrapes against something over and over again in a high contact sport like sex, you can have urinary symptoms, frequency, urgency, leakage, pain with sex, feelings of a UTI, but not actually have an infection.

So we do what’s called a Q-tip test, one of the most important tests. You can do this at home. You take a Q-tip, you can touch the labia, and you see you won’t have pain. Then you can spread the labia and touch this area of the vulvar vestibule. And you’ll say, “Oh, that feels like a UTI.” That’s not supposed to hurt. It should have no pain. And yet so many women have pain there because of their birth control pills or menopause or their breast cancer treatments or things like that. Because the hormonal changes that happen in

MEL ROBBINS: this tissue is impacting the health of that tissue and causing pain.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Yeah. And so vaginal hormones help with this tissue.

Why Sex Shouldn’t Hurt: The Most Common Causes of Pain

MEL ROBBINS: You say, Dr. Rubin, that sex shouldn’t hurt. What are the most common causes of pain with penetration that you’re seeing?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: So there are really two major problems. There’s a third one that’s a little bit smaller. But the two giant problems are:

Number one, hormonal changes. So anything that can affect your hormones — birth control, acne medications, breastfeeding, endocrine therapy for breast cancer, perimenopause and menopause — it is so common to have pain with sex, and so treatable with vaginal hormones. So treatable, amazingly treatable.

The second most common problem often comes with the first problem, and that is when your muscles are really, really tight. If you have tight, tight, tight, tight muscles — think, squeeze your eyes closed as much as you can — it’s hard to sort of stretch that tissue and get it to open. So what often happens is the hormones cause a sunburn-like pain. Your body guards and tightens to protect you. You fix the sunburn, but the body is still tight. And that’s where our rehab, our physical therapy friends come in — dilation, dilators, vibrators, things that rehab the door tissue. Because you have to fix the sunburn, fix the tissue, and then the muscles have to be healed.

But the muscles can have problems on their own. You could have hip problems, you could have back problems, you could have endometriosis causing muscle problems. Or you can have all these things that cause pelvic floor tightness.

Not as common are problems with nerves. You can have too many nerve endings in that part of your body, and there are surgeries that sometimes we have to do for this problem.

The most important message I can tell your amazing listeners is: sex should not be painful. And you deserve a diagnosis. Just like you don’t show up with face pain and just accept it — you want to know, is it the teeth? Where is the problem? And just like there is a specialist for all over your face, there are specialists — and much fewer — for this part of the genitals, because we haven’t valued or cared about this part of the body for women.

So it is likely that your general doctor, who you’ve been seeing for a long time, isn’t necessarily — they might be, but isn’t necessarily — trained in the specific diagnosis. We do have many patients travel to see some of us who are specialized. There are about 1,700 within our women’s sexual health specialty. Not everyone is a doctor, but there’s not enough of us, there’s not enough specialists. But sometimes you have to go find someone who’s going to give you a diagnosis, because that matters for treatment.

And that’s where the mirror comes in handy, because when you can see what’s going on — you never heard of a vulvar vestibule?

MEL ROBBINS: It took me never in my life.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: But it took me two seconds to explain it. And it made so much sense to you that hormonal treatments would be helpful for that, right? It took two seconds. So to be able to give women information about their diagnosis — I didn’t realize how much that mattered, even before they get the treatment. Just the validation that what they have is real and it’s diagnosable and they can see it with their eyeballs. Life changing. Life changing.

How to Advocate for Yourself at the Doctor’s Office

MEL ROBBINS: I would love to focus on a couple of recommendations of exactly what to do once you start to understand everything that you’re talking about. If someone only has a 10-minute appointment with their gynecologist or their primary care doctor, what exactly should they say to be taken seriously?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: I think it’s really important for patients to educate themselves in as much detail as they possibly can and find doctors who they can work with as part of their pit crew. And I actually think it’s important for patients to go to doctors and say, “Hey, I know you didn’t learn everything in med school and I know you don’t know everything. I am really interested in this topic. Do you know someone, or are you the right person to help me with these problems?”

MEL ROBBINS: Oh, I love the way you just framed that.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: “Are you the right person? Are you the right person to help me with these issues?” Because so many clinicians — I know a lot about the things I know a lot about. If you asked me about diabetes right now, I would look crazy. I don’t know anything about diabetes. I don’t know anything about thyroid hormones. I mean, I know a little bit, but I am not an expert in the things I’m not an expert in. Your doctor doesn’t know everything. And the key is to find someone who is curious, who is kind, who is thoughtful, who is willing to be a member of your pit crew.

But I’ve never fixed a patient on my own. I want to be very clear about that. I have never fixed a patient by myself. The patients who do the best are the ones who have a team, and they are the center of the team. They are the boss, the CEO. They’re the race car driver, and they take responsibility of the team.

You have to understand what you get in 10 minutes, and you have to come prepared. But also show some kindness to your clinician, because they don’t want to spend 10 minutes with you either. They also would like to spend more time with you, but your insurance company doesn’t give a crap. They only want you to have 10 minutes. And so I think the bad guy is not always the doctor who is undereducated in some of these issues. It’s the system as a whole.

Resources for Healthcare Providers and Patients

MEL ROBBINS: If you’re a healthcare provider, a nurse, a doc, somebody who is in the medical profession, and this is all new information to you — because I also think this is one of those episodes that people are going to send to their sister or brother who’s a nurse. They’re going to send to their partner who may be a doctor. They’re going to send to their friend who’s the gynecologist of the friend group and say, “Oh, my gosh, you’ve got to hear this.” What is the best place for a medical professional or somebody working in healthcare to go to become more educated about what you’ve just shared?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: You can learn new things. Your clinician can learn new things. Whether it’s taking my course online while you drive to work, The Menopause Society has great content. ISSWSH — the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health — isswsh.org has a great “Find a Provider” section and hormone course. There are more ways to learn how to do this than ever before.

My friend Heather Hirsch has awesome content. Kelly Casperson has an amazing podcast and is a dear friend of mine. ISSWSH has amazing content. They have patient-facing materials called the Proselia website. We’ve had thousands of people take our course and actually say, “Oh, wait a minute, I can do this as a dermatologist, as a plastic surgeon, as a rheumatologist, as a neurologist, as an orthopedic surgeon.” You can learn how to do this and you can do it quite easily.

If I give you the building blocks and the confidence to say, “Hey, if I can do this as a urologist, you certainly can do this, and here I will help mentor you,” that’s really what it’s going to take. But I’m hopeful — there’s more money in this than ever before. There’s more industry in this than ever before.

The Most Important Action You Can Take

MEL ROBBINS: Dr. Rubin, if you could speak directly to the person that’s listening, if they take one action from everything that you’ve shared with us, what would that one most important thing be?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Education is the most important thing. And by listening to this, you can check that box off. You’re incredible. By investing in your body, your education, and your knowledge, you cannot go wrong. You have to learn yourself to figure out who do I need to go see to get my customized answer. Because you deserve it, right?

MEL ROBBINS: So, Dr. Rubin, for somebody who’s been hanging on every word and now you’ve opened the door — we want to walk through and just jump in and learn even more. Where do we go?

Where to Find Dr. Rachel Rubin & Closing Thoughts

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: We’re all lifelong learners. I’m learning new things every single day. And so a great place is to follow me on social media because you can learn the new things that I’m learning while it’s happening. That’s Dr. Rachel Rubin on social media. Our website is a wonderful place for education. So RachelRubinMD.com — you can find our courses, our updates, our newsletters, very popular. We tell you about all the new research that’s going on, which is really excellent.

And then this has been an insane year. Not only were we able to announce the FDA box label changes, but I have been a part of three incredible documentaries that are all able to be watched now, right now — get on your TVs and start watching.

The first one — I couldn’t be more proud — is on Paramount Plus and it’s called Pink Pill. You must watch this documentary. Your jaw will go on the floor. This documentary is all about the drug that is FDA approved for low libido and how hard it was to get advocacy through the FDA. It is a must-watch movie. It only got made because I did a free Zoom call for a friend of mine and there was a producer in the audience. And the movie got made because of that. I’m in it. I’m not the main star of it, and it is fabulous.

The second thing that’s a must-watch is the Balance documentary series. It’s called Balance. It is all about perimenopause. It is these lady monks who are also documentary filmmakers that were going through perimenopause. It’s so fascinating. They were like, “Wait a minute, I am doing yoga and mindfulness and my soul is great. Why am I having hot flashes, night sweats, and I can’t sleep?” And they go on this spiritual journey to learn everything they can about perimenopause and hormones. So they interview all of the experts. They go on their own journey. It’s a four-part series on Apple TV. It is absolutely fabulous. I’m in it. I’m not the star, but I have some really funny lines in it that I think will make you laugh. Obviously, women urologists have to be funny, by the way. It’s kind of a rule.

And then the third one is The M Factor: Before the Pause. The M Factor was a great PBS documentary about menopause and they just made the prequel about perimenopause. They interviewed so many experts, all about perimenopause. I’m in it. I’m not the star. I always say I have sidekick energy. I love being in things, but not like the main event, which is why this makes me very uncomfortable, Mel.

But these three documentaries are just showing how much excitement there is about this topic, how much people want to know about it. So check out our podcast, check out the books that are out there, follow us all on social media. We are building an army of education and advocacy, and we would love to have you join us.

Final Words of Gratitude

MEL ROBBINS: I absolutely love that. And what I really appreciate is that you’ve empowered us to be honest with ourselves about the things that we’re learning, living with, that we may not have to live with. There are things that I learned today that I wouldn’t have even thought to make a list and go talk to somebody or learn more. And so I am on the floor about everything that you have shared with us today. This has been absolutely extraordinary. Dr. Rubin, what are your parting words?

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: You matter. Your life matters so deeply. And you deserve a team around you to help you with that and get you to whatever your goals are. And I just wish you all the success and the optimized life ever, because you deserve all of that.

MEL ROBBINS: Well, Dr. Rachel Rubin, you are a gift to all of us. On behalf of every single woman that will listen to this, I just want to thank you for the work you’re doing, for the research that you’re doing, for the advocacy that you’ve been doing. You are saving women’s lives. You’re changing medical care for women. And I think this is just the beginning. And it’s a real honor to spend this time with you. And I am absolutely grateful for you, for the work, for everything that you taught us today. Thank you.

DR. RACHEL RUBIN: Thank you so much for having me.

MEL ROBBINS: Of course. It won’t be the last time, I’m sure. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for caring enough about yourself and the other women in your life, for listening to this, for sharing this. I have so much that I’m now thinking about. I have so many people that I’m sharing this with. I’m sure you feel the same.

I cannot wait to hear your feedback about this. And I’m really honored that you and I are now going to be a part of a wave of positive change that spreads around the world, one woman at a time, based on what we’ve learned and how empowered we now feel to take better care of ourselves and to advocate for the things that we deserve and need in our lives.

And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you, as your friend, that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And as Dr. Rubin just said, you get one life. And I really want you to be proactive about advocating for yourself and doing what you need to do to feel good in your life and in your body. And everything you learned today is going to help you do that.

All righty. I’ll see you in the very next episode. I’ll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way to the end. You’re going to love this next video. And I’ll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play.

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