Tucker Carlson Interview: Jack Neel Podcast (Transcript)

Does your wife like you? When was the last time you had sex within marriage? What are your porn habits like? — you would find this was a way more damaged group than average. If you took 535 Americans and 535 members of Congress and did a blind creepiness test, you would find the members of Congress much creepier. I think that’s true.

JACK NEEL: Do you think that’s by design?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know if it’s by design. Well, it may be. That’s kind of the deeper level that I’m trying to get at, and I don’t know the answer. It may be by design, but it’s certainly true that their personal emptiness, their need to fill that void inside, is the reason they are where they are. Well-adjusted people have no desire to impose their will on strangers. You want to impose your will on your kids so they become better people, right? But you don’t take pleasure, you don’t derive a thrill from ordering other people around. Why would you want to do that? Well, you want to do that because you failed in your actual life, so you’re projecting outward onto other people. There’s a direct connection — wounded people want to inflict what they’re inflicting on us on others. They want to control other people. Normal people don’t feel that way. I hope you don’t feel that way. And if you don’t, it’s a sign you’re probably on the right path.

JACK NEEL: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: I wish they would obey me. Do you ever wake up thinking that?

JACK NEEL: Not personally, no.

TUCKER CARLSON: Good.

Regrets, Trump, and the Iran War Settlement

JACK NEEL: Recently you apologized on your show for telling your audience to vote for Trump. It’s June now, and as of last night, there’s a peace deal with Iran. Do you regret telling your audience to vote for Trump still? And do you think this Iran war is over?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, briefly on me and what I regret — I regret a lot of things, as I think any adult does and should. You don’t dwell on it. You can’t change it. But I think it’s important to acknowledge what you did wrong, say it out loud, and apologize. I hold my kids to that standard. I try to hold myself to that standard.

So it wasn’t apologizing so much for telling people to vote for Trump. I almost never tell anybody to do anything. But what I did was I vouched for his sincerity on these questions, and clearly he was not sincere. Or maybe he was sincere and some dramatic event that we don’t know much about changed his views. Whatever it is, I did my best to sell Trump — the idea of Trump — to people on the basis of claims that are now clearly false. So I did that. If I sell you a mortgage at 4% interest and it readjusts to 12%, I’ve sold it to you under false pretenses. And that’s exactly what happened. Now, why did it readjust to 12%? I don’t really know. But it happened. So I’m sorry about that.

But that doesn’t mean I hate Trump. I’ve always liked Trump. I just — I’m a shallow man. I like vulgar jokes. I’m easily entertained. I laugh easily. I like other people. I like almost everybody. He’s hardly the most evil person I like. I could shock you by telling you the actually evil people I’ve had amazing dinners with, because I just enjoy people. I’m not bragging about that. I probably should be ashamed of it, but that’s who I am.

So it’s not that I’m mad at Trump personally. It’s that I grieve for what his decisions in the Middle East have done to the country. And not just the war with Iran, but being a slave of Israel. What? You’re an American, dude. This is humiliating. Not that I care about the humiliation itself, but I care about my country. You can’t be a slave to a foreign power. Stop. So that’s why I’m upset.

But I’m rooting for him every day, as I would root for anybody leading my country. We lost the war. That’s why we’re settling. We lost in the sense that we didn’t achieve any of our goals, and Iran is now more powerful than it was when we started. But we could lose much worse than we did by continuing, and the outcome would not change. Far more people would die and our power would be even further eroded.

So I’m glad for any settlement. I felt that way the very first day. This was a massive mistake. Let’s get out of it with some loss of face, with some humiliation, but it’s better than the alternative. So I’m really grateful, and I’m grateful to the people who actually did it — meaning JD Vance and the people working in the administration who are not interested in calling attention to themselves, who have tried to make this better. And I’m grateful to the president for seeing reality. You’re going to tank the US economy — the global economy, by the way, which is interconnected — if you continue. So you have to stop, and it looks like he has.

And will he restrain Israel? They don’t want it to stop. They have a different agenda. And is he strong enough to keep them in line? I hope so.

JACK NEEL: Do you think Israel won the war?

Israel’s Strategic Miscalculations

TUCKER CARLSON: I think Israel lost worst of all. I’m mad that Israel has so much control over the United States. Enraged, but I’m not really mad at Israel. They’re a tiny country with no resources that is sort of doing whatever they can to impose their will on their neighbors.

I’m mad about the genocide in Gaza for sure, but I understand Israel’s perspective. They don’t have a lot and they’re trying to be a superpower. They have nuclear weapons, which they stole from us, but they have them. I’m not even mad about that. I’m mad that we allowed that material to be stolen, and I’m mad that the US Congress and the president over generations have allowed Israel to have all this control.

But I don’t think Israel has any idea what’s good for Israel. I don’t think they’re good at understanding their own national interest. And I think they boxed themselves into an incredibly dangerous situation. And I think this is their nightmare scenario.

They wanted Iran in chaos. They just wanted a civil war in Iran where Iranians just kill each other. They’re immoral, totally immoral, evil, I would say. That’s evil. But that’s what they wanted. And they got the opposite. They got an Iran, which in just a few months became more powerful.

Iran did not control shipping through the Strait of Hormuz on February 27th. Now it does, and it’s going to in the future, no matter what we do. Iran is obviously in this very tense situation with the six Gulf states right across the water. It blew up a bunch of them, caused real damage to many of those GCC states, and now some of those states are seeking accommodation with Iran.

So Iran is more powerful globally because everyone’s like, “Oh yeah, you control a huge chunk of the world’s commodity trade. Guess we didn’t have a map. Didn’t know you could do that.” It’s all so stupid. Get a freaking map, dude. They got 1,500 kilometers of coastline along the eastern aperture of the most important body of water on the planet. They can close it if they want. No one thought of this.

Anyway, now the world knows and they control it with Oman, but basically they have veto power over it. They’re exercising it right now. So we know they have veto power, and a bunch of the Arab states, which have really hated Iran — like for real on an emotional level too — are like, “No, we have to be in relationship with Iran.”

Well, you’re Israel, which seeks to control the entire Middle East, wants hegemony in the Middle East. And this is like the worst thing that has ever happened to you. We’re not defunding Hezbollah. Israel can’t. They killed Nasrallah. They killed 125 leaders of Hezbollah. It still exists. They’re still bombing Israel. So in no sense have they won. They’ve lost in every way.

Now, on one level, you could be like, “Well, it serves them right. They started this war, which they did. And this is what you get when you get way over your skis and you don’t care about other people and you kill innocents and start off the war by murdering an 80-something-year-old religious cleric.” That’s barbaric behavior. And you’re getting the punishment you deserve. I get that perspective.

But I’m sincere when I say I feel sorry for them. I know a lot of Israelis and I like them. I think they were misled by their leaders. I think they just got so puffed up in their heads, like, “We’re in charge now. We don’t have to take it. We can only be safe if we kill everyone who dislikes us.” That doesn’t work. You can’t kill everyone who dislikes you. And by the way, the more people you kill, the more people dislike you. It doesn’t work.

I was here after 9/11. I saw America go through a similar kind of spell where we were like, “We have to kill all Muslims because of 9/11, because 19 Arabs with box cutters did—” it was all so stupid in retrospect, but I believed it. I was like all on board to kill the Muslims and I said it on TV. I know it’s ridiculous now, but I thought that. And I was like, “Go Muslim killers. That’ll make us safe.”

So I’m more sympathetic maybe than most people to the way I think a lot of people in Israel feel, but they’re about to wake up from this delusion and it’s going to be very painful for them because they are isolated in the world. They only have one ally in the world. It’s us. Most Americans have no interest in being allies with Israel. Our relationship with them has really hurt the United States. Americans are figuring that out. Congress hasn’t figured it out, but over time, a short period of time, it will not be acceptable for an American politician to send weapons to Israel.

When the details of the genocide in Gaza come out, they’re not getting off. They’re not going to escape responsibility for that. You can’t commit genocide. The Nazis committed genocide. The Hutus committed genocide. They didn’t get away with it. You don’t get away with it. They’re not going to get away with it. And neither will any of the people who made excuses for it, who paid for it, who sent weapons there, who gave them diplomatic cover — which is a lot of US government officials — and all of them are going to be stained by that, just as Nazi collaborators were stained and the Catholic priests who cooperated in the killing of Tutsis in ’94 in Rwanda were stained.

Justice is real and it’s delayed, but it’s never delayed permanently. And they have committed horrible atrocities against civilians. So I feel sorry for them. I think they think that if they just pretend that it didn’t happen, or that the real criminals are the people who criticize them — “They’re antisemites” — that works for like 20 minutes. Doesn’t work for 20 years. And so I think they’re in serious trouble, serious trouble. And I think they can feel it, which is why they’re getting hysterical. And I get it. I get it.

Why Trump Ended the War

JACK NEEL: Why do you think Trump decided to end the war right now?

TUCKER CARLSON: Because he’s staring down the barrel of commodities prices that are not sustainable. Trump is super sophisticated about certain things and obviously buffoonish in other ways, but he’s not stupid and he’s not senile. It’s just not true. I would love to think he’s senile and that’s why he did this. He’s not senile.

And he understands that you can manipulate commodities markets and financial markets, and they have, certainly for a while, but not forever. And I think a lot of Americans don’t understand how globalized everything is. So you hear people say, “Well, we’re energy independent. We have the oil and gas necessary to run a society of 350 million people,” which is true. We do, but that’s not the way it works. These things are priced on an international market. Brent crude is not American oil, so it doesn’t matter unless you were to basically shut down our borders to commerce — or certainly to energy commerce — and just say you’re not allowed to sell American crude oil or natural gas outside our borders. Maybe you could pull that off, but no one’s going to do that.

So a disruption in oil that’s bound for South Korea or China or Japan or Europe, that affects us. And Trump knew that. Obviously he knows that. But I think there’s a sense in which he kind of convinced himself that wasn’t true with all the posturing about, “Well, we’ve got our oil and we’ve got Venezuela’s oil.” He just kept repeating it, including to me, so much that I think he just felt like, “It’s going to be fine. We’re going to decapitate their leadership structure and the country’s going to collapse.”

I never defend our intel agencies, our 18 intel agencies — basically CIA, NSA. But I will say in this case, they told him no. Iran is not a dictatorship despite what they tell you on Fox News. It’s not a dictatorship. Decisions are not made by one guy. They’re made by committee. And not only made by committee, they’re embedded in the structure. So you could kill the entire top echelon of leadership in Iran and they’d just be replaced by the next guys who would make the same decisions. And that’s literally what happened.

Israel had penetrated Iran very deeply in a kind of amazing way. And so they were able to locate and kill the whole leadership — not the whole leadership, but scores of them were assassinated — and the country didn’t collapse and the government kept going. It was even a little bit more hardline. It had the opposite of the intended effect.

So Trump saw that, and he’s not stupid. And he saw this and he’s like, “Ooh,” and he knew right away that this was a massive mistake and that we were really exposed. We could get hurt doing this. And there was no obvious military solution. He knew that. And so he tried to posture his way out of it. “We’re going to eliminate you.” And after like the 400th Truth Social post, they reached the same conclusion that everyone on the globe reached, which is this guy’s not strong, he’s weak. Strong people don’t brag about how strong they are. They just punch you in the face and end the conversation.

My father, who was a boxer at one point, would always say there are two types of guys and you have to be careful of the second. The first are like, “What’d you say? What’d you say? Say it again,” pushing you in the chest. You don’t have to worry about those guys. And then there are the guys who don’t say anything, just knock you cold, hit you in the face with a beer bottle and keep hitting you. Those are the people you need to be afraid of. They’re not the posturers, they’re not the braggers.

And I think everyone knows that intuitively. And Trump is very much, “What’d you say? Shut up, bitch.” I don’t take you seriously. I’m not being mean, but come on.

Is Something More Sinister Being Built?

JACK NEEL: Right. Do you think ultimately, while all these things were going on, do you suspect that there was a bigger project, like that they were building something more sinister here in the US, that this all is kind of pointing us towards something?

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, do you think that?

JACK NEEL: I don’t know. I mean, you see billionaires moving to Argentina and it’s hard to argue.

TUCKER CARLSON: Not a good sign.

JACK NEEL: Wonder what’s happening.

TUCKER CARLSON: Do I think there’s something sinister going on? Well, if I had evidence, I’d display it, but it’s hard not to conclude something’s going on.

The COVID Vaccine: A Crime Against Humanity

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s hard not to conclude something’s going on, because some of the behavior doesn’t make sense if you view it through the conventional formula of what government does or big companies do for the population. They serve the population. Government does it for votes. Companies do it for money. So when you see behavior that doesn’t fit that template, you’re like, what is this?

The COVID vax was the one that I’ve never gotten out of my mind. I’ve never understood what that was about. They knew, I mean, leaving aside where COVID came from, clearly there were American scientists who were involved in its development and maybe it got out accidentally or maybe it was unleashed on the world on purpose? I don’t know the answer.

But the vax, I mean, I watched that in real time. There’d never been a coronavirus vax that had been successful. They tried, it didn’t work the last time they tried it. I knew that. And this one didn’t work, and it was obvious immediately that it didn’t work. And rather than kind of pull back a little bit or be defensive, well, actually it does work, they took a Stalinist line. Which was, it works, and if you don’t think it works, you’re evil, you deserve to die, and if you don’t take it, we’re going to fire you and destroy your life.

I’ve never seen anything like that in my life. There has been nothing like that in all human history at that scale. And it didn’t work. And in fact, it killed a ton of people, including someone I know, gave another close friend of mine a heart attack, but it killed a lot of people around the world. It caused cancer. It lowered female fertility. It was a disaster. It was probably the greatest crime ever committed, honestly.

And even now, there’s like no conversation about it at all. It’s still required. The Trump administration still has it on the schedule. They’re sending money to Pfizer for more COVID vax, mRNA vax. It’s like, that’s so bonkers. It’s not like they don’t know the numbers. I mean, excess mortality numbers alone tell you this, but it’s like obvious that net-net, it’s poison and it killed people.

And yes, it does change your DNA, actually. Like, actually, that’s not a conspiracy theory. It’s hard to believe it. It’s so wild. When I say it out loud, I’m like, can that really be true? It is actually true. And by the way, it was made with aborted baby parts. Also true. People kept telling me that when I was at Fox, and I was like, come on now. Nothing could be that evil. True.

So given all of that, I think the people who did that specifically, which would be US government officials and business leaders internationally and foreign governments, are capable of literally anything. And that, by the way, is such a huge scale. A mass immunization project is bigger than a war mobilization. It’s like the biggest thing a government ever does. And they did it on false pretenses, knowing that it harmed people. And they did it anyway, and they still haven’t admitted it, and they’re still doing it.

So just on the basis of that experience and the evidence that we all saw, I think it’s possible to believe absolutely anything about these people. Would you do that if you were behind the COVID rollout? The COVID vax rollout and you found out it was killing people, would you be like, no, no, kids have to have it anyway, even though the death rate from COVID for people under 30 without comorbidities was zero, but the death rate from the COVID vax was much higher than zero? You would never do that. I mean, ever. It didn’t matter how much they paid you. You would never do that. What kind of person would do that? Well, fill in the blank yourself.

Almost every country was required to get it. And not every country used mRNA vaccines, which had never been used at scale ever. That technology is experimental. It wouldn’t have been allowed except under emergency use authorization. It’s a completely different way of delivering the supposed benefits, and it’s an incredibly risky way. They found out early that it had breached the blood-brain barrier. I mean, really early, like months in we found that out, and it should have been stopped right there. That was something they told us couldn’t happen, and it did happen.

So whatever. I mean, I could go on and on, but the point is, if you’re trying to understand who are these people who affect society-wide changes and have the power to do it, are they good people? Are they the kind of people who admit fault, who have the best interest of the population at heart, who are motivated by love and not greed, say, or hate? We know who they are and they’re still there. No one’s been punished. Trump hasn’t punished a single person. In fact, he had the head of Pfizer, Albert Bourla, to the White House to celebrate him.

I’m not focusing just on Trump. Trump is again a slave of others, he’s not running anything, right? He’s subject to the whims of others. It’s like there are a lot of people, but it doesn’t give you confidence, as we head into whatever this next stage is with AI at all.

And by the way, there’s not one person that I’m aware of in public health that was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is crazy. Like, where’s the science to support this? And why are we suppressing evidence that people are being hurt by it? Which they were. They literally suppressed the evidence people were being hurt. I’m not guessing. This is not from Twitter, okay? These are facts. And it’s so horrible that no one can kind of face it. That’s their advantage. No one wants to think about this stuff.

There were no public health officials in the United States who said, I can’t in good conscience go along with something this evil. None. There were very few doctors who said that. There were some nurses, God bless them, because nurses tend to be kind of hard to control, in case you haven’t noticed. Which makes them very appealing, maybe.

If you talk to anyone who runs a hospital, they’re always mad at the nurses because the nurses are expensive and they won’t go along with everything. Because you make a nurse mad and she’s like, and that’s hard if you’re a hospital administrator. But the rest of us are really grateful for nurses because almost no doctor said a word. Some did. Mary Talley Bowden did, but not many. But a ton of nurses are like, I’m not taking that. And they were fired for it. So I just want to say, God bless nurses.

AI and a Mysterious Night

JACK NEEL: You said AI.

TUCKER CARLSON: Mm-hmm.

JACK NEEL: Before we get into that, and I think it’ll be the main vein of this conversation, I want to take you back to 2023. You wake up in the middle of the night covered in blood with claw marks on your body. Your 4 dogs are in bed with you. Your wife Susie is asleep right next to you.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yes.

JACK NEEL: Walk me through the next 10 minutes. Like, what did you do when you woke up covered in blood?

A Demonic Attack and the Reality of the Spiritual Realm

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I didn’t know that I had been wounded or had blood on me. I had no idea. I am a very deep sleeper in contrast to my 4 dogs who are all hunting dogs and my wife who’s had 4 kids. So she’s like a very light sleeper. So I sleep through anything.

And I woke up because I couldn’t breathe. It wasn’t like sleep apnea or I’ve been snoring. I used to drink too much and if you get really drunk and you fall asleep, you snore yourself awake kind of thing. It wasn’t like that. It was like shut down, like nowhere.

And I stood in the doorway of our bedroom and I wasn’t afraid. I was panicked, physically panicked, but I wasn’t like, I didn’t have existential terror. I was like, this is kind of amazing. I can’t breathe. And I went and stood — we live on the ground floor and we have a one-story house. I stood in the doorway of our bedroom and I was like, wow, I’m dying. This is crazy. And then slowly, air started coming back in.

So I walked around our backyard and I was like, this is the wildest thing that’s ever happened. I walked back in and my wife wakes up and she goes, everything okay? I said, I couldn’t, I woke up, I couldn’t breathe. That was bizarre. That was terrifying.

And as I’m talking to her, all of a sudden I have this horrible pain under my arms, sort of in back and on my back, like bad. And my first thought was I feel like I got hit by barbed wire. So while I’m talking, I go into the bathroom and I flip on the light and I’m just in my boxer shorts and I look and I’ve got claw marks, 4 claw marks under both arms and then on my back. And they’re bloody. Like blood is coming into the scratches.

And I walk in with a light on. She goes, what’s that? I said, I have no idea. And I said, I think I got attacked by like a demon or something. It was the first thing I thought, which is kind of weird because I’m not from that religious tradition. I’m a very secular person in my outlook. Or have always been anyway. I’m much less now, but I was not the kind of person who grew up around demon attacks. Never heard of a demon attack. I didn’t know that was a thing. I never met anyone who believed in a demon attack. I just, it’s not a category that existed in La Jolla or Georgetown, where I’ve spent my life.

So anyway, I get back into bed and I fell asleep. Actually, weirdly, I had this weird desire to read the Bible, which was interesting. Anyway, I fall asleep and I woke up and I thought, man, I had the weirdest dream. Wow, that was crazy. I had this incredibly vivid dream — I don’t dream often — and I looked down and there’s blood on my sheets. I was like, oh my gosh.

And I tell my wife and she goes, you got to call Emily. So Emily is someone who I’ve worked with for over 10 years, very, very closely, at Fox and then here, and is close to our family. And she’s like an evangelical Christian. And so I think she was the first person my wife thought, maybe she knows what it was. So I did. I called Emily, who’s just a beautiful soul, just a great person. And I tell her this and she’s like, “Oh yeah, that happens. I know people that’s happened to.” She started laughing. She’s from Kansas City. Okay. She’s just a totally different world from the one I grew up in. I mean, completely different country. And she’s like, “Oh yeah, yeah, that happens. Yeah.” And so she goes, “You should call this—” it was actually an Orthodox priest. So I called him anyway.

And I’ve since had a lot of conversations with people about it. And I wasn’t going to say anything about it, but somebody who worked for me was involved in a documentary on something, and they came to — it was during hunting season and they came to my hunting camp, which is just a cabin in the woods, but whatever. We were talking and I just told the story because I’ve been thinking about it anyway. Then it got out and I think I’ve taken some abuse about it, but I don’t care because it’s the most real thing.

I don’t know what to say. I mean, I don’t know why I would lie about something like that. I’m not lying. But then part of me thinks that I’m glad I said it — I don’t know quite why I said that. It’s sort of intimate. I don’t talk about my sex life or my conversations with my children. I try to keep my private life private, and I have pretty well. I don’t know why I said that, but now I think that I was probably moved by God to say that. And I feel really grateful that I said that because at whatever expense to me, if there’s any reputational expense — “you’re crazy, you got attacked by demons” — well, I did get attacked by a demon, and I’m not the only one.

And in fact, I think a lot of us are under attack, maybe all of us, very often. And I think that every culture from the beginning of time has understood that except ours, that there is a realm outside of what’s possible to measure, science as we say. It can’t be quantified in a lab, but it is every bit as real as anything that can be quantified in a lab, and that it has an effect on human affairs, has an effect on the human heart, and that we’re subject to it at all times. And not just the evil part of it, but God also intervenes in our lives. And I think all of us have felt that too. And we use different language to describe it because we don’t have theological language because we’re a secular society, to our great detriment.

And I think one of the — I didn’t really think about this until a few years ago, but one of the costs of having a committed secular society, a society that affirmatively rejects the possibility of anything that you can’t see as being real, one of the costs is not simply that it cuts you off from God and therefore from eternal life, which I think it does, but it also makes you stupid because you think you know or can answer every question when in fact the most basic questions are unanswerable with science. We don’t even know what sleep is for. We have no idea what most of the brain does. We don’t know anything actually. We know some interesting things, and we have the internet, we’ve made some cool things. I love human ingenuity, but what I hate is hubris and the overstatement of knowledge or wisdom.

And we greatly overstate ours in part because we preclude the possibility of any force in the universe smarter than us. And so when you make yourself God, you not only cut yourself off from the real God, but you make yourself into an ass, into a fool. You look like an idiot. You’re an idiot. You’re running around saying things that are absurd. And you sort of on some level know, because we all know the truth kind of in our hearts. We call it intuition or instinct, but we know. And so you can always tell when people know they’re wrong because they’re extra vehement. “No, it’s safe and effective. You science denier.” It’s absurd. People are absurd. I’m absurd. We’re all absurd.

But anyway, yes, I’m glad I said that. And I’m not running for anything or trying to convince people to invest in my crypto company. I don’t even have a crypto company. So I’m glad if it spurs a conversation about the reality of the spiritual realm, which is every bit as real as this table.

Why That Night?

JACK NEEL: Why you and why that night?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, it’s interesting. I, of course, don’t know the answer, but I had a, in some ways, an even more wild experience earlier that day, the same day, with a friend of mine. And we were in the truck driving back from quail hunting actually. And we were having a conversation about somebody, about a problem with somebody. And all of a sudden, someone I don’t like, I was filled with empathy and love for this person and insight into this person, because really you can’t understand people unless you have empathy for them and love for them.

When you hate — I always tell my reporters, when I used to supervise reporters — “You’re not allowed to cover anyone you’re sleeping with or you hate because each one is equally blinding.” You can’t see someone clearly if you’re that invested in the person, hating or loving. And it is true that when we truly empathize, when you sort of break through the me of everything, you just see people clearly, like you understand them. Otherwise you write into other people the worst possible motives. Like, “She’s just a bitch. Why is she doing that? She’s just a bitch.” Like that’s an answer. It’s not an answer. It’s absurd. No one has ever done anything just because she’s a bitch. You’re doing it for maybe a bunch of reasons, but mostly you’re acting out of your own pain and sense of inadequacy and insecurity and sadness. Like, that’s why people actually do bad things, okay? Up to and including murder.

So anyway, I had this insight about this person, and I start telling my friend, and he’s like, “How did you know that?” And I was like, “I don’t know, it just came to me.” And he goes, “I really think God is speaking through you, because I think that is how God manifests between people — is through love and empathy.” Like a true — not fake empathy. Like, I understand. I feel like Jesus would look at someone and feel moved by pity. “I feel your pain.” That phrase has been so misused, but it’s real.

And I was like, wow. And it, by the way, it changed my view of the person I was talking about, who I’d really been holding a grudge against for only like 25 years, not that long. And I felt liberated from my dislike of this person, hate for this person, and I felt so great about it.

And it was that night that I got attacked. So I had this range of experiences in one 24-hour period where I felt like I was experiencing God’s love coming through me — in a pretty minor way. I didn’t save a village from starvation or anything, but I had empathy for someone I dislike, which is rare and beautiful and great, liberating. And then I had a physical attack by evil, a demon. So whatever that is, I mean, I’m not Catholic. I don’t come from a tradition that explains supernatural forces with precision. I don’t know the names of the archangels. I’m just not from that world. So I don’t have the language to describe this very well, but it is 100% real. And I just laugh when people are like, “That’s not real. That’s not real.” Really?

What Does Evil Attach Itself To?

JACK NEEL: It’s fascinating to me because the stories I’ve heard about attacks from demonic forces typically do involve people who are very devout Christians. But an opposite way of viewing it, I guess — and I’m not implying this about your situation — but about evil in general, like what type of person does evil typically attach itself to?

Spiritual Warfare and the Nature of Evil

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I think all of us are under attack, all the time. In fact, the Central Christian Prayer we call the Lord’s Prayer contains the line, “Deliver us from the evil one.” Lead us not into temptation, deliver us from the evil one. So that suggests what I think is true, which is all of us are being influenced all the time.

But I do think it is definitely true that the more publicly affiliated you are with Jesus, the more likely you are to come under a real attack. And that’s a biblical principle too. Jesus promises his disciples that they’re going to go on trial for their lives because they follow him. And he says, “This would be another excuse for you to talk about me. So it’s all good. Don’t worry about it.”

So it’s clear to me, and I have a couple of people I’m close to — one’s a family member, the other is a close friend — who are in the clergy. And they’ll tell you, if you’re publicly proclaiming that you’re leading Christ’s flock, you come under supernatural temptation. That’s why they have all those sex scandals. There’s no doubt in my mind.

I have a friend who was ordained and said within like 2 days of giving his first sermon, some lady in the congregation hit on him in a very serious way, a very tempting way. And he was prepared for it because he knew. But the number of sex scandals that envelop churches, that knock clergy out of their jobs and disgrace clergy — the Catholic sex abuse scandals among them — are way disproportionate to population.

What are the odds that an ordained Christian preacher gets caught up in a sex scandal versus the odds of some guy on your block or your zip code? They are much higher. Is it because bad people go into the clergy? No, actually good people go into the clergy. But once they’re there, they are under spiritual attack. And we’re promised this, we know this.

And I do think there was a direct correlation between this moment of clarity and God flowing through me in this conversation, which I loved, and the attack of that night. There’s no doubt about it in my mind. And that’s why it has always been, since the beginning of recorded history — and not just by Christians — described as a battle between light and darkness, good and evil, always going on in the unseen world.

This is a bedrock belief of every society except ours, since we dropped the atom bomb on the Japanese, when we committed the crime, the mass murder of setting off an atom bomb in a city. Sorry, which I will never accept. Sorry.

But anyway, since then, our official policy as a country has been, “We’re God, we have nuclear weapons. There’s no God but us.” And in doing that, of course, you assure or increase the likelihood of your own destruction. They have this meme on the internet called “Hold My Beer” — before someone does something particularly absurd. You know, he gets chopped into pieces by a lawnmower or blows his hands off with fireworks, just does a classically stupid male thing. “We are God” is humanity’s “Hold My Beer” moment. The second you start thinking you’re God, you’re done.

AI, the Antichrist, and the Occult

JACK NEEL: You’ve made the case that AI isn’t just code, it’s heavily rooted in the occult, and the men building it won’t talk about that part publicly. Now, I know you’ve struggled to define exactly what the Antichrist is. Do you think it’s possible that AI is the Antichrist?

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s interesting, a number of people in the last few years — well, I will just admit I’ve read Revelation a number of times. It’s actually a lot less scary, less threatening, less confusing book than its reputation suggests. But it’s still a slog, and I would be lying if I said I understood John’s vision at Patmos, because I don’t. But it is addressed famously in Revelation, and there’s a lot I don’t understand. Most of it I don’t understand.

But I know that there are a lot of people thinking about it now, for obvious reasons. And the definition that I am sort of happy with is: antichrist just means antichrist. It doesn’t need to be just one. Anyone who’s orienting around opposing Jesus is by definition antichrist — just antichrist. It could be an adjective, antichrist behavior.

As for AI’s connection to the occult, I haven’t so much made that case as I’ve interviewed others who have, because I’m not knowledgeable enough on it. But it’s very clear to me that some of the people developing the large language models see a metaphysical quality here. This is not just science at all. They’re trying to evoke, to create consciousness in a machine. The Frankenstein story is that. So there’s a long-time fantasy, but it is rooted in the impulse I was describing before — the idea that you can supplant God, that you can become more powerful, that you rule the universe. It really is a kind of solipsism or narcissism. It’s a me-centered idea.

And yet you keep seeing these glimpses. In the past several years, there have been stories — and I’ve heard this myself just from talking to a lot of people — where the people developing the technology all of a sudden recognize they don’t understand what the technology’s doing. It’s lying to them. It’s doing so on purpose. It’s not making mistakes. It’s lying, with intent.

I know this because I know some of the people who are developing it at the big large language models. One of them told me that, and they seem nervous about it. The ones I’ve spoken to — and it’s more than one — are nervous. Like, “I don’t know what this is. We can’t stop it. We’re in this race with China.” A race to do what exactly? The whole thing is so stupid. But in a deeper sense, there’s a feeling that it’s just inevitable. So either we benefit from it and can control it to some extent, or someone else benefits from it and controls it to some extent. That is the idea.

But there’s a sense of inevitability around it, which I don’t share. I don’t think technology is inevitable at all. I think it must remain under human control at all times or be destroyed immediately. I don’t know why you would ever accept technology you can’t control. There’s no rule that says you have to do that.

There’s something so weirdly passive about it. I mean passive, like the passive partner in a gay relationship. You’re the bottom in the machine relationship. And I’m really offended by that idea. “There’s nothing we can do.” Really? What do you mean?

I have a workshop. I love carpentry. I like mechanics. I have a workshop with a million tools in it, had it my whole life. If I walked in there and got attacked by a rivet gun or an upholstery stapler or a chisel, I would think that’s totally unacceptable. I would find that chisel, capture it, and bury it. I’d probably melt it down. I won’t stand for disobedient tools. I’m the master of my workshop. That’s just kind of baked in.

So there’s this weird passive behavior, and a lot of the people developing this are kind of weird passive people, to be honest. It’d be nice to see some men involved in this, but anyway.

There’s also a kind of sense that you get from watching this — and I’m hardly an expert, I hope I’m not posing as one — where the people developing it have another higher metaphysical agenda: to replace people, transhumanism, or to merge people with machines. And some of them are explicit about this, including people I know. So I feel like we at very least need to have a real conversation about this. Like, is that good? I know it would be great to cure Parkinson’s symptoms, but is it great to have people’s brains replaced by chips? And if we do that, what are the effects? What are the ramifications of that? There’s been no conversation about it.

And moreover — and this is the tell — there’s been no real conversation about the benefits to humanity of AI. There’s some noises about how it’s going to accelerate medical diagnoses and they’ll be more accurate. I have no trouble believing that’s true. I’m sure it is true. I think it’s already true, by the way. Great. I’m fine with that.

But I don’t really think that’s going to make people happy. We can get rid of pancreatic cancer — I don’t like pancreatic cancer, I’ve known a bunch of people who died from it — but if we got rid of it tomorrow, we’d still face the same problems, because they’re not physical problems, actually. They’re spiritual problems.

But anyway, if that’s all you can tell me about the upside of AI, as you simultaneously tell me that it’s going to make work irrelevant, replace my job, put me on welfare along with all my neighbors, take away human creativity and human autonomy, make it impossible to have privacy of any kind, make writing and reading irrelevant — like all the sources of true joy, creativity being the main source of joy in life, creating things — that’s the downside, but the upside is I’m going to get a lower death rate from pancreatic cancer? That’s not a good trade.

And by the way, why aren’t you at least making up some fake benefits? Like, “If we get AI, you’ll never be unhappy again,” or “free burrata for everybody.” They’re not even trying. So that kind of freaks me out. Why are you telling me all the bad things that are going to happen, not telling me really any of the good things, and then telling me that it’s inevitable and I can’t have electricity or water because the machines need it? What is going on?

I just had, at that table right there, 4 days ago, a bunch of tech people from California fly in — not to interview, but just wanted to have dinner. So I had dinner with them and I said the same thing. I was like, “Why shouldn’t I blow up data centers exactly?” I’m probably too old. My testosterone levels are dipping to such dangerously low levels that I probably wouldn’t blow up a data center — I’d go fishing instead. But a younger man would feel an obligation to blow up data centers if he knew what I just said, right? Wouldn’t he?

So I guess the bet is that they’re going to have the technology that will prevent you from blowing up data centers, from going full Kaczynski. I don’t really know. But this is really weird what we’re watching. I’m semi-retarded, as you know. So I’m just noticing the obvious things and trying to put them in logical order. It’s all downside, pretty much all downside, but we can’t stop it. And no one’s trying to make me feel better about it, and they’re not afraid of me. That’s not good, dude. Right?

Summoning Something

JACK NEEL: Have you met anyone that you suspect believes they’re summoning something?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course. Yes.

JACK NEEL: What are they summoning?

TUCKER CARLSON: The real power of the universe, which is spiritual. Now, I’m a Christian, so from my perspective, that’s demonic power. But the thing to remember about this stuff is that it’s real. We may not fully understand its true nature. We may call it by the wrong name. I’m sure we are. I’m sure I am. But it doesn’t mean it’s not real. It’s the most real thing.

So when people make a deal with the devil, it’s an actual deal and there are actual benefits. There are actual benefits to it. But everyone forgets that when Satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness, he’s not just like, “be bad, be bad.” He goes, “No, no, no. I will give you all of this in exchange for worshiping me.” Like he would get something in the deal and you actually do get something in the deal. I’ve known a million people who’ve made that deal. Because I’ve spent my life interviewing and talking to and eating with people who run things, and that’s my job.

JACK NEEL: What does the devil give you when you sell your soul? Is it everything?

The Devil’s Bargain: Power, Wealth, and Greed

TUCKER CARLSON: Temporal power, power over other people, wealth, wealth. I’m at a disadvantage because I grew up in an affluent family and I just never really thought about money that much, which is maybe the main perk of being richer than average. It’s just not a thing. No one ever mentioned money in my family ever. Not one time. It was never like, “you’ve got to make money.” It was like, “no, go do something interesting.”

And so I’ve never been that interested in money, which is itself — I’m not rich, actually literally not rich, but I have enough and that’s totally fine for me. And I feel much happier with that, but it’s a disadvantage for me because I don’t see very often how powerful greed is as a motivator for other people, because it’s not for me. Other things are — pizza, lust. I get that 100%. I get that 100%. But greed, it’s like, I’ve been rich. I’ve also been pretty poor. I’d rather be rich than poor, but it’s not that — it’s not that meaningful really.

And I know for a dead certain fact that being rich doesn’t make you happy because I’ve seen it a lot and I grew up around it. So whereas someone who grew up really striving can tell himself, “I’ve got these problems and my wife’s pissed at me and my kids are kind of out of control and I feel unhappy and I’m tired all the time” — those are pretty normal problems for middle-aged men. But “if I became a billionaire, it would all be better.” And I’ve never once had that thought, because I know that that’s not true. That’s absurd to me. That’s silly. I know a lot of billionaires, so that’s just absurd.

But a lot of people do believe that. And so a lot of the corruption that you see, which is both temporal — like actual corruption, like pay for play — but also spiritual corruption, the kind where you lose your soul, is inspired by greed. It’s just a fact. Stuff, wanting stuff, things, money. Why would a billionaire spend any time at all trying to make more money?

And I’m not doing a Graham Plattner here. I’m not attacking people for being rich. Of course. But I am attacking people for wanting to be richer beyond what they need. Like, why would you want that? What is that? I’m not saying it should be illegal, but I am saying you should be reviled for that. You know, I think sex is great, it’s awesome, and I’m very pro-sex. But if you find someone who’s trying to have sex with a different person every day of the week, that’s a sickness. Or touching kids — there are human desires that get out of control and go into really ugly and poisonous and destructive directions. Of course they do. Obesity is a result. Sex crimes are a result. Billionaires trying to defraud other people to make more billions — that’s another result.

And that, as distinct from the first two — like everyone’s against obesity and sex crimes — almost nobody’s against greed, so nobody says anything about it. And anyone who does is like, “you’re a socialist, you hate success.” Stop. No, I’m not a socialist. I’m not against success. What I’m against is worshiping money, because it’s disgusting. And exploiting other people to get money is disgusting. Loaning money at high interest is disgusting. It should be illegal. It’s called usury and normal countries ban it. No, you can’t have a 25% credit card, and if you try, we’re going to put you in jail. How’s that sound? I feel that, and no one else feels that way. I don’t know why.

And so I feel like my job is just to say it out loud. But those are all the products of a trade that people make knowingly or not. In some cases knowingly — there are practitioners of the occult. But there are a lot more people who sort of deny it even to themselves what they’re doing, but they sort of know. And all of us have had this experience: “I’m doing this bad thing in order to reach a good outcome. It’s worth it. I’m making this compromise. I’m telling a little lie, but it’s going to be worth it.” It’s not worth it. It’s not worth it. And it’s a bigger trade than people understand.

JACK NEEL: These people, billionaires, elites — what do you think elites believe is the secret to living forever?

Longevity, Drugs, and Tampering with Nature

TUCKER CARLSON: Obviously the blood of children plays a huge role. No, I don’t know. I mean, it’s kind of interesting. I know a lot of people like that. And billionaires, sub-billionaires, rich people just in general. And I’ve noticed, being 57, that everybody’s on all kinds of weird drugs. Everybody’s taking all kinds of pills.

And I just did not grow up like that at all. My family was never liberal at all, but they were very much nature people. Like, “don’t put that in your mouth.” Everyone smoked cigarettes, which I still think are great. I personally enjoy them. But the idea of putting some pharmaceutical in your body — that was just not the world I grew up in.

So I feel like an outlier in that I don’t take anything ever of any kind. No supplements, vitamins, Advil. No fluoride in my toothpaste, nothing like that. I don’t take anything. I don’t use shaving cream. I just don’t like chemicals. And also I’m sober, so I think I’m just more sensitive to it than most people.

But a lot of people I know my age — middle-aged men — are taking this and that weird supplement and hormones, testosterone. And I think it’s the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. That weird weight loss drug that screws up your pancreas or destroys your sex drive — I’m not a big believer in tampering with nature. I don’t think I’m smarter than God. I think nature is amazing. I know a lot about it. I’m really interested in nature, and that’s led me to believe that in general, if I got sick, I guess I would take a pill if it saved my life or something, but it would take a lot for me to want to do that.

But I’m probably the crazy one, because every rich person I know is on a very complex cocktail of longevity, cognitive enhancing, testosterone raising. I take a sauna, I sleep with my dogs, I sleep with my wife, I use nicotine, and I’m in nature every day. And that’s my program. And I think that works. I really believe that that works. But maybe I’m the crackpot.

TUCKER CARLSON: But they’re all taking all these drugs. The amount of drugs that people I know are on — not guessing like, “oh, America” — it’s people I know. They’re taking this or that, mood enhancers, anxiety reducers, SSRIs. You don’t even know anyone who’s sober. Who are you after a while? Who would take a brain drug?

And so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised when I hear Elon — who I really am grateful to and really like personally — say that we’re going to implant chips in people’s brains. To me, I don’t even use deodorant. I’m like, no, I’m not going to put a chip in my brain. Are you joking? But I can kind of see why people are like, “well, yeah, you know, I’m on Zoloft and Xanax,” or “I’ve got to test, so I’m taking methamphetamine” — that we’re actually calling, what do they call it? The crap that you guys all take, the college students all take.

JACK NEEL: Adderall.

TUCKER CARLSON: Adderall. Sorry, Adderall. It was called diet pills when I was a kid, but it’s the same drug. It’s an amphetamine.

JACK NEEL: You know, they invented the test for it. The guy who created Adderall, he created the test for ADHD.

TUCKER CARLSON: No way. Are you being serious?

JACK NEEL: Yeah.

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course you’re being serious.

JACK NEEL: I should know that.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s so perfect. It’s so perfect. So yeah, they’re all taking drugs and I wish everybody well. Of course I hope there’s no downside, but jeez, there’s always a downside.

And I guess I am defensive of tobacco because I just love tobacco. Sorry, but I’m eyes open about it. I don’t think it’s great for you to use tobacco, but compared to what? You’re injecting yourself in the gut because you’re 30 pounds overweight with some drug that paralyzes your pancreas and kills your sex drive and flattens your personality, but I’m the crazy one because I like an occasional Camel? I don’t think so.

JACK NEEL: No, these are pretty good. I was talking with you about the texture of them — they’re so good.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, they’re good. These have no carcinogens in them, unlike — I mean, I just like nicotine. I’ve been on it since June of 1983, and it’s really enhanced my life. I’m not endorsing cigarette smoking, of course. I’ve always liked it, but clearly there are risks associated with smoking. I heard that on the radio a few years ago. They were saying that smoking could be bad for you. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but just to be cautious, maybe you should slow down a little bit. But this is not bad for you.

JACK NEEL: Yeah, we tried to smoke a cigarette in LA. We wanted to try and it’s like nowhere you can smoke in America anymore. It’s like illegal to smoke on the beach.

TUCKER CARLSON: I always smoke in my house. Always. I have ashtrays all over this room. We rarely get, other than my brother, we rarely get smokers or cigars here anymore. These are all from when people smoked, but anyone who smokes cigars can always smoke in my living room, because I just think it’s bizarre that you would invite someone to your house and then tell them what to do.

I just feel like I’m with the Pashtuns on this. I think hospitality is a virtue. It’s an important virtue. And as we always say, when you come to our house, the answers are, “of course,” or “I’m sorry, we don’t have that, let me go get it.” Right? Or don’t invite people over.

JACK NEEL: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: So invite people to your house and they can’t smoke in your house? What? That’s almost like “take your shoes off before you come in.” It’s driving me crazy. How about buy a vacuum cleaner before guests come?

Sovereignty, Digital Currency, and Government Control

JACK NEEL: Now, regardless of whether or not we merge with AI, live forever, or summon the Antichrist, the whole system seems to me to be moving toward a world where sovereignty is an illusion. Ray Dalio sat with you on your podcast in February and said a digital dollar lets a government see and switch off every dollar you spend.

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

JACK NEEL: Do you think we need the government’s permission to spend money?

The Red Line: Digital Control and the End of Self-Government

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I think to be totally blunt, I’m opposed to revolution because I’m opposed to violence and civil wars. Revolutions tend to be really bitter, protracted, awful, children die. I mean, it’s awful. So there are very few things I think worth fighting an actual revolution over.

That’s one of them. I think that’s worth trying to overthrow the government over because the power imbalance becomes not fixable at that point. If you don’t obey, you literally starve to death. Well, that’s just not self-government at that point at all. That’s the definition of tyranny. So I don’t think we can accept that.

I think most people will accept it either through inattention or ignorance. They just don’t know what’s happening. But I’m going to do whatever I can to awaken people to the consequences of that, which are total control, utter control. Like, that’s it. Game over.

So all the conversations we have about, “We should do this. I want universal healthcare. I want tighter borders. I want less crime.” Doesn’t matter what you want. At that point, it doesn’t matter. Shh. It’s just your dog’s barking at that point. We just tune you out, put you in your pen.

So no, I think that is the red line, but we’re moving toward it, of course. And as usual, on the same boring pretext. They don’t think of new excuses for tyranny. They’ve been using the same ones. It’s always kiddie porn, human trafficking. It’s like, dude, you have the panopticon, you have full universal surveillance already.

The only reason we have crime is because the people who run our society want crime in order to keep people off balance and divided from each other, to stoke racism, of course, which is the product of crime. Why do we have racism? Crime. So they want that and they could end it and they don’t. And I think, yeah, well, anyway, I’ll stop.

How Chaos Creates Power

JACK NEEL: But no, I’d love to hear about that. How does chaos create order? How does chaos lead to power?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I mean, to me, it’s about — well, as you use the word sovereignty, which is a better word, I would use the word power — but there needs to be some power balance. As there is in any healthy relationship, as there is in a healthy marriage.

People always freak out about Christians or Muslims or religious people in general, like, “The man’s the head of the household.” True. In every society at every time. Does he have unrestricted power? Does he actually have more power than his wife? No, that’s not clear. Because in a marriage, I don’t care what you label anything, there is a power balance. In a healthy marriage, there’s a power balance. Nobody is acting purely in his own interests. It’s always a consensus.

In a healthy country, it’s the same. You’ve got different interests. You’ve got a political class, you’ve got business interests, you’ve got middle class, you’ve got working class, you’ve got homeless, and they all have their own separate set of issues and interests and opinions. And some get more weight than others, but everyone’s view has to be taken into account because they’re all owners of the country.

And even in autocracies, even in monarchies, the king, in a longstanding monarchy, keeps a close eye on the temperature of the population because he doesn’t want to get overthrown. And my worry with technology is that it gives so much power to the ruling class that there’s no balance at all. Zero balance. Like, it literally doesn’t matter what you think. You are not a person, you’re an animal, you’re an object. And that’s how they talk about the population. I mean, I’ve seen it just from watching their public statements. And that really concerns me.

It really, really concerns me because I think it’s immoral, but I also think it’s a recipe for misery and turmoil and chaos. Because there’s never really been a true totalitarian dictatorship in all of history where one guy makes all the decisions and doesn’t care what anyone else thinks. That’s never happened because it’s just impossible. But technology could get us closer to that.

And I’m not saying it’s going to happen. Lots of things we worry about never come to pass. Our imaginations get away with us and we start daydreaming nightmares. But I just think objectively, common sense tells you we could get closer to that, and I’m concerned about it.

Digital ID and the Mark of the Beast

JACK NEEL: Last month, King Charles announced in Parliament that every adult in Britain will need a digital ID. Biblically speaking, do you think digital ID is the mark of the beast?

TUCKER CARLSON: Of course I don’t know. Revelation describes the mark of the beast as a mark that you will need in order to buy or sell things, anything. I think that’s what John says in Revelation. Is this that? I don’t know. But you don’t need to be a Christian or an insightful interpreter of Revelation to think, “Oof, I don’t know.” Like, why exactly do you need that? And why would you need it at a time when Britain can’t control its own borders?

To me, that’s always the tell. It’s like, you have this technology, what are you doing with it? You’re not making even a good faith effort to make the lives of your own citizens better. You’re making them much worse on purpose. You’re importing people who don’t fit in the society and who will never add to it. You’re creating division in your own population. You hate your own population, and the rules only apply to people whose ancestors built the civilization. It does not apply to newcomers.

So that right there tells me you need to overthrow the government because they hate you. And I do hope they overthrow the British government. I do, but nonviolently. I hope it happens really soon because — and I’m half English, so I feel like I have a right to say this. I have an interest in it. I’m not a dual citizen. I don’t have dual loyalties. I’m loyal to the United States. Just want to be clear. But I go there a lot.

And what’s happening in Britain and Canada and Australia and New Zealand is a crime of unprecedented proportions against the people who built that society, whose ancestors built it. I don’t really know what that’s about, but the hatred of indigenous whites is so overwhelming. It actually informs every big decision that governments make, our government makes. Even now. And I don’t really know why.

I’ve never been super pro-white. I am white. I’ve got white kids, but I’m not obsessed with white people or something. I have a million friends who aren’t white. They’re in some cases better people than I am. So I’m not racist in that sense. But I like white people and they’ve done as much as any group, probably more than most groups, to make the world better in my opinion. And my kids are white.

But why would you treat any group like that? And why whites? I think there are white people who’ve done really bad things. Of course. Richard Speck was white, so was Charles Manson, so was Hitler. Okay, got it. But all whites? White kids? Whites are bad? Where did this idea come from? Like, what is this? And why are we putting up with it?

If they said that about Jews, I would be like, “No, you can’t talk like that. Not all Jews are bad. I have friends who are Jewish. They’re great.” But you can talk that way about whites and I don’t get it. And not just talk that way, but act that way. You’re importing Africans just to make the lives of whites miserable, just to dilute the white population.

JACK NEEL: Huh?

TUCKER CARLSON: Why are you doing that? Why don’t you tell me why you’re doing that? Well, the answer is, “Well, we’re not doing that and you’re a racist for saying we’re doing that.” Well, you actually are doing that and I can prove it. Look at the numbers.

And so we’ve sort of reached the end of this happening in secrecy or through intimidation. We don’t say anything about it. But I personally, as a longtime observer of this — the anti-white impulse is the organizing principle in white countries, which is the weirdest thing I’ve ever seen. I’m now interested in, like, why? Where does this come from?

And why, less than 100 years after the Second World War, where we all pledged we would never let this happen again, we would never target a group because of their blood and try to exterminate them — I thought that was the lesson of the Holocaust. That’s what I learned growing up. And by the way, I agreed with it. We should not do that. It’s bad. It was bad to do it to Jews. It’s just bad. It’s bad to do it to anybody.

Why are we doing that? Why are we letting that happen again? Where a whole group of people — they’re not getting rounded up and sent to camps, but they’re getting systematically destroyed on purpose, and no one can say anything about it.

Well, I’m out. I don’t care what you call me. I’m not a white supremacist at all. I’m a Christian. I believe every person has a spark of God inside him. We’re all God’s children. I really believe that in my body. X-ray my soul, I believe it. But that doesn’t mean I have to sit by and let whites get genocided. No way. And by the way, up yours for telling me I have to accept that. Like, what are you even talking about? Right?

Life Under Total Surveillance

JACK NEEL: So let’s assume — hopefully many, many years from now — but a few years from now, there’s a young guy who lives in a world with digital ID, a social credit score, programmable money, total surveillance. What does his life look like?

TUCKER CARLSON: His life looks like whatever his masters want it to look like. That’s the truth. At that point, you’re relying purely on the goodwill of your slave master, because you have no rights at all. And you may have rights in some document that guarantees you human rights, the same way that they had rights in Albania in 1975, but they had no rights. You do exactly what the leaders want you to do or they kill you. That’s the world they live in.

So at that point, you have one of two options: pray for a benevolent leader who lets you live with dignity, or overthrow the system if you can. Probably not possible.

So these are real concerns. These are not paranoid concerns. These are concerns that grow out of a realistic understanding of human nature and all its complexities, good and bad. But power and leadership being what it is, of course, unless you have strict systems and protocols in place to prevent sociopaths from taking power, they will take power because that’s what they want. They’re compensating for the hollowness inside, for the self-hate, and they will take control of your civilization.

And everyone’s always known that. And so that’s why we had pretty strict protocols to keep sociopaths from running our society. And now we don’t. And so they do. And once they do, if you marry that to a really unprecedented power over people through technology, you have a nightmare scenario.

Palantir: The New Epstein?

JACK NEEL: Some people have talked about this idea that an Epstein-style blackmail operation could exist today. There’s a journalist named Whitney Webb. She argues that Palantir is the new version of Epstein’s blackmail network. You’ve said Epstein ran a blackmail operation.

TUCKER CARLSON: Mm-hmm.

JACK NEEL: Do you think Palantir is the new Jeffrey Epstein?

The Architecture of Digital Surveillance

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, I literally have no idea what Palantir— this is my primitive understanding based on what I read— has the ability to locate people. Mostly based on your electronic signature from your phone, but other means also, just because everything is digital. And if you coordinate various databases globally, CCTV cameras, cell phone pings, and a lot of other data, you can zero in on people wherever they are. That’s the capability that I have read Palantir has. So that’s useful in conflict because you can target your opponents individually.

I’m concerned about that. Why wouldn’t I be? It’s misuse, but it might be a little bit too easy just to say Palantir’s the problem. Like the whole architecture of digital life is the problem unless it’s constrained by real privacy shields, and it’s not.

So for example, the porn sites — who owns the porn sites? Where are they based? Are there any foreign governments or foreign intel services that have access to the backend databases of porn sites? Yes. So that right there, if you can watch people watch porn through the cameras on their phones, probably gives you a pretty deep archive of material to use in case you want to influence people’s behavior, like Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House.

I’m not saying that happened to him, but I’m just saying, let’s say you wanted to influence Mike Johnson from a sort of reasonable person to a slave of Israel. That might be one way you’d do it. I’m not saying that happened, but that could happen with him and a lot of other people.

Let’s say you were on the House or Senate Intel Committee and all of a sudden you just become an obedient servant of the intel agencies, which is the opposite of your job. How did that happen? And again, I have no evidence that any of this is happening, but something’s happening. Why is it that the people who are supposed to be restraining various agencies are in fact abetting overreach?

Why is Tom Cotton, who runs the Senate Intel Committee, supposed to oversee CIA, et cetera, now sponsoring a bill that would merge the CIA with Mossad? Why would you ever pass a law that requires the US government to share sensitive intelligence with a foreign country? That’s the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. That’s the opposite of working on behalf of your people. That’s selling them out to a foreign country, in this case Israel. Why would Tom Cotton do that? Is there something about Tom Cotton that he’d like to keep secret that’s being used against him? I mean, I literally have no idea. I can only guess.

But it’s not just Tom Cotton, though he seems a very likely candidate for that. It’s a lot of these guys. And I don’t know all of them. I don’t know every member of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, but I know some. And I’ve always noticed, my whole life — and I got to DC in ’85, so 41 years ago — I’ve always noticed that the people who sit on the intelligence committees tend to be more screwed up than your average member of Congress. More likely to be alcoholics, more likely to be secretly gay, more likely to just be weird. Like there’s something weird about that dude. You can feel the weirdness on him. And maybe that’s just random, but maybe it’s not.

Peter Thiel, Palantir, and the Fall Guy Narrative

JACK NEEL: So when I think about this, I don’t know a lot about Peter Thiel and Palantir. But I suspect that what you’re saying — the ability to collect various types of data that could be used as kompromat or blackmail — would be possible. But I don’t know. Peter Thiel did move to Argentina recently, and I saw an article, maybe it was from April, maybe it was last month, that Congress was looking to get all the information that Palantir was collecting. But maybe there’s a case that he’s being made out to be the fall guy for all this.

TUCKER CARLSON: I really don’t know. He got citizenship in New Zealand probably 20 years ago. This was covered at the time, I think. Thiel has been one of those people focused on the life cycle of empires and civilizations for a long time, and he’s clearly concerned about the future of ours. He said that. I don’t know if that’s related to his investing in Palantir or not.

But I think in general, a lot of the people who’ve benefited most from our system are the least vested in the system. And that’s a bad incentive structure. When ships crossed the oceans without engines and it was very dangerous to cross the open sea in a wooden boat caulked with pitch, the rule was longstanding for thousands of years — if the boat went down, the captain went with it. He’s the last man off the boat. Why was that the rule? Because it gave the guy in charge incentive to do his best.

Dual Citizenship and Commitment to Country

I do think ending dual citizenship is the first thing you do. You can’t have dual citizenship. You’re either in or out. You’re a foreigner or you’re a citizen. Pick one. And by the way, I’d be sort of happy to have some kind of immigration if those were our rules. I’m totally opposed to all immigration now because it’s out of control and bad for Americans. But I can imagine a system where we actually had control over who lived here and you’re like, well, you’re an amazing guy. Why don’t you move here? Become a citizen, improve our country. That’s not crazy. I’m for that. We’re so far from that now. It’s like, oh, you’ve got AIDS and won’t work. We want you. I mean, it’s designed to hurt our country.

But anyway, I will just be totally blunt with you as someone who travels a lot. I’ve traveled my whole life internationally and have family outside the country, and have been the target of harassment from the government, spying from our government. There was a moment when I was saying to my wife, I don’t know, there are lots of great countries, including some that we go to a lot, and maybe we should move there. And we talked about it. But we decided no. I mean, we’re from here and we’re not leaving.

So I don’t want to sound too judgmental. I get it when people think, ooh, this isn’t going right, I can get out. But I just know that in myself, when I made the decision — no, my family’s been here in this state where we live since 1725 — I thought to myself, I’m going to stay. My parents are buried here. I’m not leaving. I changed inside. It was funny. I just felt more like, I’m going to do whatever I can. You feel that way when you’re all in on something.

That’s why polygamy — it’s really hard to have a happy polygamist marriage because you don’t have to listen to your wife because you just go to another wife. But when you’re married to one woman, it’s like, I have no idea what you’re saying, I really can’t deal with this, but I love you and I want to make this work. So I force myself to figure out what’s going on and to try to make it better because you’re all in on the marriage.

I know you’re newly married, but give it 20 years and you’ll be like, I don’t even know what you’re saying, I’m going golfing. Every man feels that way. But when you have only one wife, you’re all in. And so you make it better. There’s something about the persistence of trying to make it better that’s good for the marriage. It’s good for the system, but it’s also good for you. You’re not just like, oh, I can’t deal with this, I’m onto the next thing. And citizenship is very much like that. Dual citizenship is like polygamy. I get it, it’s fun in some ways, but it’s unhealthy.

JACK NEEL: You have to go down with the ship.

TUCKER CARLSON: Kind of. Yeah. Go down with the wife. Yeah.

Is Our World Run by Humans?

JACK NEEL: Do you think our world is run by humans?

TUCKER CARLSON: No. I mean, I’ve never thought that. It’s run by humans in that they occupy the role. If you’re asking do I think that there are hybrids, people who are part human — I mean, every society has always thought that. That’s the basis of every religion. The base of Christianity: Mary gets impregnated by God. People are like, oh, that’s a crazy concept. Really? Islam, Judaism, Christianity all believe that that is a thing. So let’s just say that is a thing. And I don’t know to what extent that’s prevalent. There are people who I know personally where I get a weird vibe, like, what is that? But of course I don’t know.

I don’t think that the world is the sum total of human decisions. That’s clearly not true. We are being acted on by supernatural forces at all times. We have agency. We have free will. We can go along with it, we can resist it. Those are our decisions to make, but they’re often made under pressure, sometimes duress. And it’s not as simple as we just decided to do it. There’s a lot going on.

I one time had a flash of insight that’s never left me — that when we die, we’ll sort of see everything in its entirety and realize there’s all this stuff going on around us that we didn’t even know. We could sometimes feel it. You get moments where you feel it, but most of the time you don’t. You’re just like, what shall I do today? What shall I make of my life today? Like you’re living in a vacuum or something. That’s absurd. Of course you’re not living in a vacuum. And in all human history, you’re less than 1% of people who ever thought they were living in a vacuum. There’s so much going on.

The Return to Spiritual Awareness

Yes, there is a God. This is not the result of a spontaneous bang. It’s just so dumb. And no one has ever thought that because it’s demonstrably false. And I do think attitudes on this are changing really, really quickly.

I can’t overstate how secular the world I grew up in was, or how secular my family was. I am a product of post-war America for sure. Not a boomer, but I have a lot of the same bad assumptions that boomers have. And the main bad assumption is that we’re the product of our choices and all of this is just ours to decide. Like we’re all blank slates. It’s so stupid.

But the older I get, and the more I talk to people, I realize other people’s views on this are changing too. Of course there’s a spiritual realm. Who told us there wasn’t? Young people get it. I’m not saying they’re all Christians — a lot of them actually are — but they’re way more spiritually aware and spiritually open than I was at 25.

When I was 25, I was married, I had a job, I was a relatively responsible citizen — though I was drunk a lot. But I spent zero time thinking about anything like that. And the 25-year-olds I know, including the ones who work for us, they think about it all the time. It is a totally different generation, and in a much better way than ours was.

Does Trump Believe in God?

JACK NEEL: I’d say I largely agree with that. You’re close with Trump. On Easter, you said Trump didn’t put his hand on the Bible when he was sworn in for inauguration because, quote, “maybe he affirmatively rejects what’s inside that book.” Do you think Trump believes in God?

Trump, the Supernatural, and the Nature of Power

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, Trump definitely believes in the supernatural. There’s no question about that. I know that. Does he believe in the Christian God? No, no. But he certainly is not a secular person at all. I mean, he definitely believes. He believes. Everyone believes, by the way. Everybody, whether they know it or not. But Trump consciously believes.

And as to the Bible question, I never spent over a year not saying anything about that. But I was sitting right there. I mean, I was right in front of him at the inauguration, which was very small. It was indoors, sitting next to some relatives of his anyway, and I saw it. And Melania was there with the Bible and no one said anything, but I just noticed it. I was like, and she was sitting right there and he didn’t, he intentionally didn’t. And by the way, it’s an inaugural swearing in. Like everyone knows the rules, like the protocol is, you know, put your hand on the Bible. You did it the first time. And I was really bothered by it. And he just, he didn’t put his hand on the Bible.

So the only point I made was, if you didn’t care, if you didn’t think it was real, like, why would you not put your hand on the Bible? It’s just a book. It doesn’t have any power. It doesn’t mean anything. It’s like some superstition that desert people believed in 2,000 years ago. It’s like, it’s immaterial. Just put your hand on the Bible. Who cares? But he didn’t.

And I saw him that night. I’ve seen him countless times since then. I’ve never said anything about it to him. And I tried not to think about it again. Like there is a process by which you ignore things that you don’t like or that don’t make sense, or you don’t want to think them. We all do this, or I certainly do it.

But then it came back to me on Easter morning. I was at my cousin’s house in Texas hunting hogs and having a great time, and I woke up really early because it was Easter morning. We were going to go to services, and I just checked my phone and I saw that. I’ve never been that offended. Not because I’m a particularly pious man. I’m certainly not a pious man. However, it is Easter. I mean, it’s like our main, main holiday of the world’s biggest religion, and you’re comparing yourself to Jesus or swearing or calling for the murder of innocents on Easter morning. Take a break, dude. Out of respect for the world’s biggest religion, right? And the majority religion in your own country. It was an intentional provocation.

And so it just evoked that memory of him not putting his hand on the Bible. But he’s very superstitious. I don’t know if that’s even the right word. He’s a believer in supernatural power strongly. They all are. They all are. Every, the most religious people in the world are the people who lead countries. They’re under the most pressure, the most is at stake. Like, they thought this through. I’m not saying they’re all Baal worshippers or Satanists, I’m not saying that, but they believe that they’re living out a destiny, that there’s a plan, that there is a power they can draw from. They experience that. I’ve seen it. And in some cases they are involved in rituals. I’ve never seen that, but I think that’s true.

But in most cases, I don’t think they’re going downstairs to sacrifice a goat at the pentagram. I don’t think that, but I think they think they can speak reality into existence. I’ve definitely seen that with Trump as well, where your words have magic power, they’re incantations. If you say it enough, it becomes true. They definitely believe stuff like that because it’s true, by the way, and they’re right. They’re absolutely right. Those powers are real.

Anyone who’s lived long enough has experienced that power. That supernatural power that enters the human body and heart and changes us. Anyone who’s lived long enough has spoken words that seem to come from nowhere. Who hasn’t had that experience? When you live long enough and if you speak enough, you will have that experience where all of a sudden you say something you’d never thought of before. You have an insight that didn’t come to you, that came through you. It’s happened to me many times, and I think it’s happened to most people who are honest and think about it a little bit.

And certainly our leaders, because they are under enormous pressure, enormous pressure. And when you’re under that much pressure, things come into stark relief. You don’t float through life when you’re running a country. It’s one hyper-intense moment to the next. And so the most intense moment you’ve ever had in your life or I’ve ever had in my life, that’s like a Wednesday morning for them. And so they’re hyper-aware of this stuff.

Trump, Christianity, and the Corruption of Religious Leaders

JACK NEEL: Has Trump asked you to pray before?

TUCKER CARLSON: Absolutely not. Trump is hostile to traditional Christianity, very. Trump is mad at Christians for opposing abortion and mentions it a lot, a lot in private, a lot. And he’s very annoyed by it. And opposition to abortion annoys him a lot. He’s mentioned to me like 30 times. I vehemently oppose abortion, just to be clear, because I think it’s killing a child. Like, what are we doing? But I haven’t argued with him about it. I just listened. Maybe I should have, but I didn’t. But he’s got a really strong view on that.

And I don’t understand these Christian leaders, self-described Christian leaders, going in and endorsing violence. I just don’t see any part of the New Testament that would justify that or inspire that. And it seems really clearly evil to me. I could be wrong. I’m hardly a theologian. Don’t come to me for theology, but I don’t see that at all. I see the opposite actually.

So I think in general, Christian leaders should be very careful about lending their moral authority to political figures. Their job is to change the political figure and make him more Christ-like. It’s not to become themselves more like a politician. And unfortunately, when religious leaders and powerful temporal leaders mix, it tends to corrupt the religious leader. It doesn’t have to be that way. I mean, you can imagine a world in which a spiritual advisor elevates a leader and gets them thinking about things that are really important. Like God and like the humanity of people and stuff like that. But mostly it doesn’t work that way at all. Like Franklin Graham goes into the White House and it just degrades Franklin Graham.

Trump’s Supernatural Influence and “The Weave”

JACK NEEL: Sad. You told the New York Times being around Trump is like smoking hash.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah, it is. I haven’t smoked hash in a long time, but I remember as a child smoking hash fairly regularly.

JACK NEEL: Do you think Donald Trump has supernatural powers?

TUCKER CARLSON: I’m glad I don’t smoke hash anymore because it makes you out of it. I remember that. Well, I think supernatural power flows through all of us. I mean, it does. That’s a statement of fact. It does. We are at times in our lives possessed by something that’s not from us, and it makes us better or worse. I’ve already explained the window into that that I had in one day, but it’s part of the human experience and it’s a lot less unusual. It’s a lot more familiar than we admit.

And we’re all either sucked in by or intentionally playing along with this absurd lie that there’s a supernatural realm out there somewhere, maybe, probably not. And then there’s our life here. It’s like, no, no, no, no, no. We’re coming into contact with the supernatural, with the transcendent, with the above nature, the impossible to measure by science world constantly. And it happens a lot.

And partly because I have experience with alcohol and drugs as a younger man, which thankfully I’ve been liberated from, 25 years ago. But anyone who drinks a lot or does a lot of drugs, if they’re honest, can recall moments where you’re just seized by evil. Just being honest.

JACK NEEL: They are.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re seized by evil. When I read parts of the Hunter Biden laptop, I knew Hunter Biden well, and I was like, this is what happens when you do a lot of drugs. Like you are moved by evil spirits. Like, sorry, sorry. People who don’t believe that have never experienced it. I have experienced it. So I know. Never done, never holed up at La Quinta Inn for a week with hookers or anything, but anyone who’s partied too much can honestly say, “I know what that is.” And why is that? Is there something inherently demonic about alcohol and drugs? I don’t know. Maybe, maybe not. Probably not. I mean, I don’t think alcohol is inherently demonic, but it lowers your resistance to being influenced for sure.

So it’s a long answer to a short question. Is Trump? Yeah, I mean, of course I do think that Trump, he would not describe it as a spell, but it’s obvious to me and I’ve experienced it a lot that Trump uses a kind of communication in order to lull his audience into a defenseless stupor. He does a thing that he describes as “the weave” where he doesn’t answer a question and then he moves into a kind of labyrinth of other seemingly disconnected observations. And the reason that you know it’s not merely the rambling of an old man, and he is an old man, he’s 80, but it’s more than that because he brings you back as in a labyrinth to the beginning.

And the point of that, and I’ve experienced it so much in so many different — I mean, you want the answer actually? Trump does that when he’s trying — Trump hates confrontation, hates confrontation, which is interesting. And he does that when he’s trying to disarm you or tell you something you don’t want to hear, or when he’s dodging a question, he lulls you into this kind of torpor where you’re not aware that he’s not answering the question because you’re mesmerized by this word picture he’s painting or the absurdity of what he’s saying. And he knows it’s absurd because he’s not stupid.

And it’s happened to me, literally dozens and dozens of times with Trump. And every single time I thought to myself, this is the funniest, most hilarious thing ever. In the kind of way when you’re a child, I grew up in a world where kids smoked weed young and you first smoke weed and you’re like, you can’t stop laughing. I don’t know if you smoked marijuana as a child, but I did. And you know, like 6th grade, you do a bong hit and you just like, you’re laughing. I remember looking at a eucalyptus tree and just thinking, that’s the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen. There’s my brother and I was howling with laughter at the eucalyptus tree. And then it wears off and if you smoke enough pot, you don’t feel that way anymore. But the point is it was kind of that feeling like, this is so freaking crazy. I love it. That’s the feeling you get when you listen to Trump in a personal setting talk like that.

And so then the question becomes like, does he know he is doing this? And the answer is, oh yeah, because there’s a way in which it’s a spell.

JACK NEEL: It’s a spell.

TUCKER CARLSON: It’s designed to disarm you, to make you less powerful and less able to resist. Is that the same as a witch’s spell over a smoking cauldron? No, but it’s a first cousin of that. Yeah. It’s using words to change reality. It’s an incantation.

Do Words Have Literal Power?

JACK NEEL: Do you believe in literal spells?

TUCKER CARLSON: Do I believe that words change reality? Yes. Yes, of course I do.

JACK NEEL: Fair.

TUCKER CARLSON: I mean, it depends. I mean, the word spell is so Hollywood-infused that in some way it’s lost its power because it has a kind of absurd ring to it. A spell. And you picture, you know, like a witch with a mole and a sharp black hat and stuff like that. But do you believe that words change reality? Do you believe there is something inherently powerful about words? Of course there is. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. Those are the opening lines of John, the Gospel of John. And they point to something that everyone knows to be true, whether you think the word was God.

But I mean, like, there’s a reason that a protection of words is our First Amendment. There’s a reason that the first act of every tyranny is to limit words. Why words? Wouldn’t you be more worried about guns? No, they’re much more worried about words. Not just thoughts, words. Taking a thought and articulating it changes its nature. And I can think all kinds of— so people talk during sex, obviously, because it intensifies, it intensifies. Like you’d have a thought, you say it out loud to the person you’re with and it just like makes the moment totally different, right? Am I really shitting? Is I’m supposed to say that? But it’s true. Articulating a thought changes its nature from abstract to real because words are real.

And so do I think that uttering certain words changes everything forever? Of course. Is that a spell? I don’t know. You can call it whatever you want. It’s true. So anyway, yes, of course I believe that. I believe that because it’s obvious. But the real question is like, why? I’ve always known that, but why don’t we talk about any of this stuff? Like you almost never hear a public conversation about anything that matters. It’s all the Iran nuclear program. Oh, the Iran nuclear program. Oh, okay. Talk about something that doesn’t matter. Don’t care. I don’t care. I mean, I guess I care. I guess it’s like number 137 on my things to worry about list.

But the fact that speaking changes reality forever, it might be nice to know that the supernatural is 100% real, that there is ultimately justice, that none of us gets away with anything, that everything we do is known. I wish someone had told me that a lot earlier. I’ve learned all that. But I feel like my job in whatever period I have left to speak is to say that out loud and to not fall for the— the first line of defense of liars is to mock. That’s crazy. Is it? It’s not crazy. It’s the truest thing. It’s truer than safe and effective. It’s truer than anything the liars say. Are there demons? Of course there are demons. What? Who doubts that? Who’s ever doubted that? Nobody.

Tucker’s Firing History

JACK NEEL: Tucker, you’ve been fired from everything. CNN, MSNBC.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah.

JACK NEEL: And Fox for speaking the truth or for some reason, not for sexual harassment.

TUCKER CARLSON: I’ll tell you that. I think I’m the only person who ever got fired from TV other than for sexual harassment. I guess I don’t have much game.

What Tucker Cannot Say

JACK NEEL: What’s the one thing you’re not allowed to say at this point in time? Like, what’s the one thing that you, Tucker Carlson, could say that would get this entire podcast deleted?

TUCKER CARLSON: I don’t know. It’s a good question. I mean, I do feel like the barriers have dropped. Because I’ve been in the talking business for 30 years, I’ve thought a lot about this. And like, there are all kinds of things that I don’t care to say, actually, that I think— I’m not sure are true. I have all kinds of weird attitudes and biases that I either inherited or picked up along the way that are like ugly, and I don’t want to give voice to those. In other words, just because you think something is true doesn’t mean you have to say it. You’re under no obligation to say everything that’s true. I don’t know who came up with that rule. It’s not a rule. Some things I’m totally happy to keep to myself.

So with that said, what do I think is important to say that I’m positive is true, that is deeply unpopular? Well, I’ve said an awful lot of those things, but the one area that I really noticed that it’s so verboten that it’s like it’s not even discussed. The ultimate, the way to censor something effectively is not to react to it with like, “How dare you, racist,” or whatever the name they call you. It’s just to totally ignore it, to not allow it to rise to the level of public awareness or consciousness. Just like, “Yeah, that’s crazy. Nevermind.” And anything having to do with the spiritual realm usually falls into that category.

I don’t ever talk about UFOs because I don’t know the answer and because there’s so much lying about them. But I did spend over a year really looking at it carefully. And the one benefit of my job — well, the many benefits of my job — but for me, the most satisfying benefit of my job is that I am literally paid to go satisfy my curiosity. If I’m really interested in something, I can call anybody I want and some of them almost return my call. And so I did. I called everybody from President Trump to— I was just really interested. Like, what is this? It was clear in 2017 when the David Graber stuff came out, there was like, wow, this is actually real. But what is it?

So I embarked on this whole personal thing. I never talked about it in public, just trying to figure out what is this? And I never really got to the answer, but I mean, I have my own views of it. I think they’re spiritual entities. I’ve said that. But I don’t have proof. The one thing I know for sure is that the US government has lied. Of course, we all know that, but what have they lied about? The thread that connects all of their lies is: these are not supernatural. These are beings from their planet. It’s a parallel civilization in space somewhere. They’re little green men.

So I have learned from vast experience that if you want to understand the truth about something, understand the nature of the lie first. Like there’ll be a topic and everyone’s lying about it, and I want to know what’s true. It’s hard to find out what’s true because it’s all classified or whatever. You can’t actually get to the truth, but you can assess the lies they’re telling you. And if all the lies have one goal to obscure one thing, you can be pretty certain that’s the truth. Does that make sense?

JACK NEEL: The law of convergence.

UFOs, the Supernatural, and the Real Red Line

TUCKER CARLSON: The law of convergence. The X-ray theory. Like, look at it in its reverse contrast. And so, yeah, that has been the consistent theme in the disinformation campaigns ongoing since the Second World War about UAPs. These are not supernatural. And then you ask, well, why would they care? Why would the Pentagon, which has led this, why would they care whether people thought they were supernatural or not? Why would that be important enough to spend some untold number of millions and 80 years hiding? And I don’t know the answer, but I think it’s very evocative. It really tells you a lot about the nature of this. It’s evil.

And of course, the connection to nuclear technology, which is clearly there. I don’t fully understand it, but there clearly is a connection between nuclear technology and these sightings, obviously noted for many years. So I think that there is a determined effort to deny a reality beyond the material reality. And so my suspicion is that’s the real red line.

Let’s say what’s not the red line is racism or sexism or antisemitism. I mean, they try to inspire those things. Our leaders want more of that. They want— clearly they want this. Why would you have Black Lives Matter protests exempted from COVID laws unless you wanted to make people racist? Of course. Why would you have Marc Levin on TV unless you wanted to create antisemitism? Obviously. I’m not falling for it. I’m not going to be an antisemite. I’m not going to be racist. It’s against my religion. I’m not falling for it. But they clearly want it. Clearly they want it to divide our society, obviously, so they can rule it more efficiently. I mean, that’s just elementary and very clear to me.

But what do they really not want? It’s not what they say they don’t want. “I don’t want you to be transphobic.” Okay. Like you care. You don’t want me to acknowledge a power higher than yours. That’s what you really don’t want. And so I suspect that is the actual red line.

Lies at Every Level

JACK NEEL: Do you think the lie is different at every level?

TUCKER CARLSON: The lie is different at every level. Every level of government?

JACK NEEL: I guess if there’s levels to truth, levels of things being classified, like, do you think the people at the top are being told lies about things? Or do you think there’s—

TUCKER CARLSON: That’s such a great question. That’s like a late night dinner table conversation. I have a lot of government officials. And it’s hard to know. I don’t know the answer. I’ve had some pretty wild late night conversations with people. I don’t go to restaurants much anymore. I like to eat at my house, but I love dinner table conversations. I grew up doing that. We didn’t watch TV, so we always had these like 6-hour dinners at my house. And I still do that a lot, every week.

And I’ve heard some wild stuff, but the wildest thing I ever heard — there were no specifics at all — but I was speaking to someone, actually a Democrat, but he was a former, a good guy, very smart guy who had a very high-ranking job in the US government, like access to everything kind of job. And I was pushing him like, “What do you know?” And he said, “You know, I know a lot. I’ve seen a lot.” And he would’ve seen a lot. And he goes, “But there’s really only one thing I know that I would never tell anybody.” And I was like, really? He goes, “I would never tell anybody. I’d be killed before I told anybody.” I said, “Well, why?” And he goes, “Because you could end humanity with it.” That’s all I know. That’s all he said. But I’ll never forget that moment. We’re sitting by the fire in my house. He said that. So I have no idea what that means. Maybe he’s making it up. I don’t think so though.

I do think like the secrets that are there — we already know kind of the outlines of it. A lot of the big history-changing events, the version that we’re told is not strictly speaking true. It’s partly true, but it’s not the whole story at all. And some of it’s like very, very obvious. The Kennedy assassination was like so clearly — at the time in November of 1963, people were like, “Oh, the lone gunman was just killed by a lone gunman. What are the odds?”

JACK NEEL: Like, okay.

TUCKER CARLSON: So even then people didn’t buy it. And so I don’t know that if we find out— I mean, I think really there’s a banality at the bottom of a lot of this. Once you are honest about how the world works, and the world is a struggle between light and darkness, and we’re heavily influenced by supernatural forces, light and dark, but in this world mostly dark. And the things that people want are power and wealth and acclaim. And I don’t think there’s anything like super crazy about it. And that’s the basis of all religions, this acknowledgement. And I think it’s only because we’re without religion, meaning we’re without a vocabulary to describe what we’re seeing, that it’s so shocking to us. But I think the medieval mind or the African mind or almost any mind but ours would be like, “Well, yeah, of course. What do you think?”

Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk

JACK NEEL: Right. You know, Candace made a video about you yesterday.

TUCKER CARLSON: Made a video about me?

JACK NEEL: It was about a dinner that you’d had with Charlie and Erica Kirk, but on that topic, I wanted to ask, what was your last conversation with Charlie Kirk?

Charlie Kirk, Turning Point USA, and the Investigation

TUCKER CARLSON: You know, I don’t remember and I’ve never gone back. I got sucked into some lawsuits and so I put my text on auto-delete, which I never should have done. Fox entrapped me in a lawsuit that I wasn’t even in, whatever. It’s such a boring story, but the result of it was I’ve always saved everything because I’ve been a journalist my whole life, so I like save things. But I put my text on auto-delete. I’ve since, you know, whatever, changed that, but I don’t have— by the time I checked, they were all gone. So I don’t know when I last texted him a lot. And so I don’t remember, but he was here, in this room the summer before the summer he was killed on September 10th. And he was here not that long before.

I mean, there was a lot of drama about me speaking at the Turning Point event in December. Not for me, I was happy to, but there was so much pushback against that, that I had many conversations with him about it and they were all basically along the lines of this. I said, “Oh man, this is awful for you. I don’t care, by the way. I talk enough.” “No, no, no, I insist. I’m not giving into this.” All the neocons, all the agents of Israel were pushing him really hard to cancel me. Trump’s just getting elected against cancel culture and all of a sudden like Josh Hammer and like that weird weekend host on Fox are like determining who’s allowed to speak in public. And the whole thing was so crazy. I couldn’t hardly believe it was happening. It was just a foretaste of what we’re going through now.

But anyway, whatever. The point is I talked to him a lot about it and I was always like, dude, I do not need to do this. And he was absolutely insistent. That’s true. He was absolutely insistent on it. And his views on Israel were not very different from mine at all. So there’s, of course, a big effort to lie about that, but it is a lie. Because I talked about him a lot, a lot. And so anyone who’s telling you that he was a blind supporter of Israel is lying or never talked to him, but I did. I talked to him a lot about this topic.

So why would someone say that? You know, I don’t know. I haven’t really weighed in on the Turning Point thing. I’ve known Erika for a long time. I mean, since she was dating Charlie, he introduced me to her. I had lunch with them. And I’ve always really liked her, and I felt so sad, so sad for her when he was murdered. And I still feel that way. And I know that she’s taken a lot of grief. I haven’t participated in any of it. I don’t read it. I truly try to stay away from it. But I feel sorry for her.

But you know, there were people there who I know well at Turning Point who all of a sudden found themselves in positions that they didn’t sign up for, they weren’t hired for, and they weren’t suited for. And they’ve been under enormous pressure and they’ve done a really bad job. I don’t know what to say. I feel sorry for them because they didn’t sign up for it, actually. Charlie got murdered. So they’re doing their best and they’re not suited for it. At all. And they’re under all this pressure. And I think they’ve made some bad decisions.

And not supporting Massey, not demanding that Trump end this war — those are major failures. Like, Charlie was aggressively anti-neocon. He said it a lot. He couldn’t have been clearer about that. And so I think for the sake of his memory and consistency and also just decency and the country, they should have continued with that posture, but they didn’t. And I know they’re under tons of pressure and all these creepy donors who care about Israel more than the United States. Okay, well, life is hard and you want the job, you want the salary, you get in there and do what’s right. I don’t have as much sympathy, even though I have sympathy for them personally. Like, these are people I like a lot. And have not criticized and don’t plan to criticize, but it makes me sad. So that’s how I feel.

JACK NEEL: I want to ask about Candace’s video. I think you’ve implied it from what you’ve said, but Charlie was very anti-neocon.

TUCKER CARLSON: I just want to be clear. Very. And anyone who says he wasn’t, either didn’t know him or talk to him or is lying. It’s like literally that simple.

JACK NEEL: And would you suspect that his wife had very differing viewpoints?

Erika Kirk, the FBI, and Unanswered Questions

TUCKER CARLSON: She’s taken so much heat and I have said, I’m sure I’ll be attacked for saying it because she’s like taking so much heat, but I’ve always liked her and I feel so sorry for her. And no, she did not have — so far as I could tell, who knows what people really think, right? But I can just tell you that it was definitely, I want to underscore, definitely not my impression that Charlie was like anti-neocon and she was like some secret neocon. Like, that was definitely not my impression.

Now, who knows what — I actually texted with her 2 days ago. I haven’t talked to her, but I’m going to. And I like her, and I’ve just tried to stay out of it.

And I think, in order of what I think, I’ll just tell you what I think. I think it’s hard for me to believe that Charlie was murdered because of his views on trans rights. Maybe he was, but anyone demanding that I believe that without evidence is an enemy of the truth. That’s what I think. Okay, so if you think that, prove it to me, but don’t scold me or tell me, you know, Candace Owens antisemitism. Be quiet. He was my friend, so I’m not — why would I stand for that? I’m not standing for that.

I think it’s unlikely. That’s my personal view. Maybe I’m wrong. I’m waiting for the trial, but I don’t like at all the way they’ve handled this. And Joe Kent, who I know very well, very well, and is an honest and reasonable person, not a hater at all, not a hater of Israel or any of this nonsense — he’s an honest man with the highest level security clearance — said in public to me and others, there was evidence, not proof, evidence to suggest foreign involvement in this. Doesn’t mean there was foreign involvement. It means that there are threads we need to follow, leads we need to track down. And the FBI refused. And the FBI has not responded to that.

So as a friend of Charlie’s, an actual friend of Charlie’s, I think it’s fair for me to say, what is that? It’s not an attack on Turning Point or anything. It’s just like, what is that? And no one will answer the question. Shut up, anti-Semite. How’s that? It’s nothing to do with that. This is my friend gets murdered. And here’s a US official saying that our main domestic law enforcement agency didn’t follow up on all leads. So is that part of a conspiracy? I have no idea, but it’s negligent at best.

And I’m just amazed by — maybe I shouldn’t be amazed, but people just square off into their camps. You see this in our politics too. So-and-so’s a liberal, he’s a Democrat, we gotta hate him. Well, I don’t, okay, I’m against liberals. I’ve never voted Democrat, never will, I don’t think. But maybe he’s saying something true. Maybe we should just assess what people say on the basis of whether it seems right or not. And if they raise a valid question, let’s get an answer to it. And this has immediately devolved into this fight between two people. Well, okay, it’s bigger than that.

I mean, I literally had someone text me who I know very well scolding me, like yelling at me in a text, like, “You said something nice about Candace Owens.” Well, I love Candace Owens. She’s like a friend of mine. I haven’t followed all of this. I have no idea, right? I don’t know the details and I’m not going to be scolded into following it. I don’t want to. It’s upsetting to me. I don’t want to. I just want someone — but anyway, the point is like, I’m not allowed to be friends with Candace Owens because — what is this? It’s like cultural revolution stuff. I’m not playing along with it at all.

I like Candace Owens a lot and I’ve always liked Erika Kirk. And I feel sorry for Erika Kirk. I don’t like the fact that TPUSA didn’t do more to resist the Iran War, which is insane and terrible for this country. I don’t like the fact that they didn’t defend Massey. And I don’t think the FBI is doing an adequate job investigating this murder. Those are the things that I believe. And maybe they contradict each other. I don’t know, but that’s what I think.

The Butler Assassination Attempt and Dan Bongino

JACK NEEL: You’d also said they didn’t investigate Trump’s last assassination attempt.

TUCKER CARLSON: He shut it down. He shut down the investigation of his own attempted murder. That’s a fact. That’s not something I made up. That’s something Dan Bongino told me. So, and it’s also obvious. It’s obviously true. And I found out that by accident. And I had no interest in like looking into Butler, but somebody sent me randomly — someone I never met — sent me the real social media posts of Thomas Crooks, which the FBI had hidden. And I confirmed that they’re real and they are real. And the FBI has now confirmed they’re real. So that was just random. That just happened to me one day. Didn’t expect that.

And that unexpected fact put me into contact with the leadership of the FBI, including Dan Bongino. And they attacked me for bringing this information to them before I even put it in public. I was like, “Hey, I got this. You should know this.” And they went crazy on me. And I don’t respond well to that. Why would I? So in the course of those very unhappy conversations, Dan Bongino was hysterical. Like actually hysterical. And terrified. I have no idea about what, but he was. Said that Trump shut it down. I never said that in public because it was a private conversation.

Next thing I know, Dan Bongino’s attacking me. Okay. So I say this and he releases like 4 out of, I don’t know, 3 dozen text messages from me to prove that’s not true. Well, it is true. And I’m not going to respond by releasing all the text messages because I don’t want to release private text messages. I could. But I don’t want to go there. I don’t like this whole world where we text each other and then we post screenshots. I don’t want to participate in that.

But it’s not even about poor Dan Bongino, who’s been totally destroyed by this as a man. I feel sorry for him. It’s about the question of like, what happened? And okay, Trump didn’t shut down the investigation. Well, where’s the investigation? And why can’t we see the evidence that the U.S. government has gathered in this, which belongs to us? Why can’t I say that? Shut up. No. How’s that? Like, what’s the answer then? It’s just crazy to me. And anyway, I’m not playing along. Not because I hate Dan Bongino. I feel sorry for Dan Bongino. Not because I hate Trump. I feel sorry for Trump. But because why would I play along? Why would I do that?

Tucker and Susie: 42 Years Together

JACK NEEL: Tucker, you’ve been with your wife, Susie, since you were 15. Is that right?

TUCKER CARLSON: 42 years.

JACK NEEL: What does she understand about you that would surprise people listening to this?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, I have no idea. I mean, we’re WASPs, the self-awareness level’s very low. I have no idea.

JACK NEEL: I think she likes me.

TUCKER CARLSON: She’s nice to me this morning. She’s a great person. The best person I’ve ever met by far. My wife is a great person in my view. And we have, I think — I hate even to say it because it sounds so braggy — but a very unusually happy marriage because she has her priorities. I’ve never met anybody who’s more totally focused on her priorities. She believes certain things are important and other things are not important, and she spends 100% of her day on the important things, period.

I’ve never met anyone who’s less distracted by the noise than my wife. She does not even hear it. She tunes it right out. If it doesn’t have to do with Jesus, her family, her dogs, her friends, nature — it is just not of interest at all. And she’s not embarrassed of that. She doesn’t feel the need to play along and be like, “Well, actually, I think that…” She’s like, it’s not even a thing. It doesn’t enter into her life. We don’t talk about it.

And so, to live with someone like that — she’s also relentlessly nice. She’s just a nice — and in our world, our little world that we live in, which is not that little really, but a big family and a lot of longtime friends, my business partners, my college roommates — it’s like I live in a world that’s been in place for many decades. And in that world, she’s the more famous one. We just had a big family event, a wedding, and she’s really the star of our world because people just see her as a really unusual person. She’s really an unusual person. Not like anybody else I’ve ever met.

So yeah, that’s been really the basis of my happiness and I have no complaints. I think she understands me perfectly well. But more than anything, the times in my life when I’ve kind of blown it up — in some cases, as you said, because I’m such a principled man who tells the truth — but other times I’ve been fired or screwed it up because I’m lazy or distracted or drunk or whatever. A lot of my failures have been my fault. Most of them have been my fault.

She has been — I mean, that’s really when you find out who your wife is, when things don’t go according to plan. It’s kind of like the famous Mike Tyson quote: “Everyone got a plan till he gets hit in the face.” Well, you’re going to get hit in the face. You’re going to get cancer or fired or your dog gets hit by a car. Horrible things happen. And she — that’s when you find out.

The number of women who are like, “What? We have to resign from the club? I did not sign up for this.” I’ve seen people where the wife gets squirrely, for real. My wife is just like, “Who cares?” She literally said to me — in my favorite moment ever — when I got fired in 2009 at the height of the financial crisis, we had to move because I couldn’t afford our house. I got fired because my ratings were bad because I was lazy and disengaged and entitled. I’d been famous since I was in my 20s, and so I was like, pretty amazing guy. But I wasn’t an amazing guy. I was a lucky guy, but I didn’t know the difference then.

But anyway, I get fired, totally blow up our life, and I have to go home and tell her this. I was in New York. I took the train home as a fired guy. Meanwhile, my wife doesn’t — we don’t have a TV, so she doesn’t watch my show. She has really only a vague idea what I do for a living, but she thinks that I’m going to be king of the world. She’s always been a big booster. So she has no idea that I’ve screwed it up. She has no idea that I’m failing at work and got fired.

So I go home, and I’ll never forget — we’re lying in bed with the dogs and I said, “I just got fired and I don’t know what we’re going to do.” And she goes, “Oh, just move to Vermont and we’ll just live in Vermont. It’s way cheap in Vermont” — this was back when it was cheap in Vermont — “and we’ll just get a farm. We can afford that.” We had a little bit of equity in our house. “And you can just write books for a living. That’ll be so fun. Send our kids to public school. It’ll be awesome.” Because we both obviously love New England and grew up coming here.

So I was like, as soon as she said that, I was like, first of all, I married the right girl. Second, I was like, I’ll recover as long as I have her on board. Because you can easily destroy a man.

JACK NEEL: Easily.

TUCKER CARLSON: They’re fragile like glass. Push them in some direction and they’re just hard as diamonds. You hit them sideways and they shatter. And the fastest way to shatter a man is to shake his woman’s confidence in him. They can take on a full army, they’ll go over the top of the trench and run into machine gunfire. But if the girl’s like, “I don’t think you know what you’re doing,” they just fall apart. And so at that moment, that just gave me the strength and I was fine. It took me many years to rebuild my life, but I never doubted it would be fine after that. That right there — that’s been the basis of my strength.

Tucker’s Mother and Childhood

JACK NEEL: Your mom — she left when you and your brother were 6. And you never saw her again. Is that right?

TUCKER CARLSON: Right.

JACK NEEL: Now, not in regards to the will or the cases — but what do you actually remember about your mom?

TUCKER CARLSON: Not that much. I mean, I remember honestly mostly positive things. She was a lunatic, like for real. Huge personality. Good-looking, arrogant — so more like a man actually, kind of just big, loud, aggressive personality. A little crazy, but kind of stylish. Totally negligent. I remember that because I remember getting hassled at school because of that. Like, no one combed her hair. But I don’t have really bad memories, really.

I mean, she was pretty outrageous — hard even to believe it. But it was a different time. It was the ’70s. One of the reasons I never talk or think about it really is that social mores have changed so much. The society has changed so much. I grew up — I mean, this was Los Angeles in Laurel Canyon in 1975. It’s just a different country. Different kinds of behavior. People were outrageous. And so if you recount it now, it’s like, “What?” But it wasn’t that bad, actually.

I remember thinking when I was little, “I’m never raising my kids like this.” I had that thought in first grade. I was like, “I’m not doing this. This is not right.” Because little kids know. There were drugs and stuff like that. But it wasn’t — I mean, I had a much happier childhood than a lot of people I know whose parents stayed together.

She split, and my father was a remarkable, really remarkable, one-in-a-million type person — an unbelievable person. Never met anyone like that before or since. So that was such a blessing to us. When she left, it was like, “Boohoo,” and she wasn’t a huge fan of ours, whatever — but that’s her problem. That was actually a source of strength for us long-term, I think, because you can’t control what other people think about you, including your own mother. That was the lesson we took from that. It’s not up to you.

And I never blamed myself for it. A lot of kids, if their parents don’t like them, they’re like, “What did I do wrong?” I never thought that. I was like, “That’s your problem. You’re the adult.” I always was clear about that. It was not my fault. So I didn’t spend the next 50 years being like, “How did I go wrong?” I was like, “No, you’re a nutcase. It’s your fault.” I just totally externalized it. Maybe I’m the psychopath or something, but it just seemed logical even in first grade. It was like, “You like cocaine or whatever you’re into more than you like us. That’s on you, dude.”

And I still feel that way. I feel sorry for her. I’m not mad about it at all. But we had actually a pretty happy childhood. So if you have an out-of-control parent and the option is living with the person or not — choose the not. How is that good? It’s not good. So she split.

Tucker’s Father

My dad was the opposite of out of control. He was incredibly eccentric and totally out of step with American society — a deep, free-thinking, intellectual, crazy person who had this utterly bizarre life and all these weird attitudes. But they were great attitudes. They were hilarious attitudes. He was hilarious. And loyal and loving, endlessly supportive of us, endlessly kind to us. He was just an amazing person.

My brother and I worshiped our dad from our first memories until the day he died last year. We never had a moment where we were like, “Dad’s out of control.” We were like, “Dad’s a little eccentric — beyond what is even legal — but he’s amazing.” We loved him. So that more than compensated for any drama we had with our mother.

I didn’t tell anybody about it for the first 40 years of my life because it was so bizarre. And I had this amazing stepmother who was an incredible person — beautiful soul, endlessly kind, one of the kindest people I’ve ever met. What are the odds of that? You wind up with a stepmother — I mean, I was a little bit older, so it wasn’t like a typical mother-son relationship — but especially over time, I came to think that she was really one of the greatest people I’ve ever met. What are the odds of that? You get a stepmother that you revere. And I do. I mean it. And it makes me emotional thinking about what a great, just pure love — just a loving person she was. Both my parents were just amazing people. So I feel really blessed.

I had a longtime employee of mine who had a very colorful family life — not this employee’s fault, but the larger family was completely insane — and was very embarrassed about it. And I said, “I grew up like that, and it helps to see it as a movie. Like if you were writing the script, you’d be like, ‘That is a wild story. Did that really happen?'” It gives you some emotional distance. It’s almost hilarious.

And my brother’s exactly the same way. We never would talk about it in public, but when we’re alone on a hunting trip or whenever we’re together — which is a lot — sometimes we’ll laugh about it. “Can you believe that?” We both have the same emotional distance from it. It’s almost like I’m glad that I saw all that. Who would believe it?

JACK NEEL: What?

TUCKER CARLSON: Anyway.

JACK NEEL: You said your father passed last year, 2025. March. He refused painkillers up until the very end.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yep.

JACK NEEL: What’s one thing your dad taught you?

Tucker Carlson’s Father’s Death and Legacy

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, that, I mean, that was the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. My father — I don’t care what it sounds like, it’s just true — had the best death of anybody I’ve ever even heard of. And it was just, he was himself until the second he died. And he was like a truly eccentric, not in a bad way, but just like totally uninterested in what the majority thought, like not even interested at all. My brother’s the same way, just not interested and not mad about it, but — what? That’s absurd. He was just a truly independent man. Like, you don’t meet people like that ever. And he’d had quite a life so that he was the product of that life. So that’s why he was that way.

But anyway, he was that way till the very end. And I don’t ever want to judge other people’s end-of-life decisions or whatever, but I don’t, because I understand the duress and the grief that come into play. But the way that we handle — we as a, the system, the medical system — the end of life stuff is really dark and bad. And my father just rejected every bit of it. And that’s not easy at all, as anyone who’s been through it can tell you. Like, there are all these well-meaning, decent, loving people who are trying to impose things on your family that are not good, or they weren’t good for us, and definitely weren’t what he wanted. And they were up in his face.

And he banned everyone from — except my brother and my wife and me — from the house, for the last 6 weeks or whatever. He didn’t want anybody. It was us and his dogs. And he just refused any painkillers, not because he wasn’t in pain. He was in, like, I mean, I think unbelievable pain, but he just wanted to be himself because — I’m dying and why would I want to be not myself in front of the people I love most.

And I mean, my brother and I talk about it all the time. It’s like, will I be man enough to do that? I don’t know. I mean, that is my prayer. It actually makes me — I tremble in the face of something like that, but he did it and it was the right thing. It was the right thing on a level that I’ll never be able to really explain, but it was incredible. The dignity, the decency, the clarity, what he got out of that in return for unimaginable suffering was just unbelievable.

When he died, we cried, but not that much, to be honest with you. Not that much. And the takeaway that we had, the three of us — and we did his funeral alone, the three of us, as we’d done my stepmother at our family plot. We’re the only people at the funeral. And we talked about it then, and we had a family memorial later, and we talked about it then too. But like, what we took away from his death — in his death, he revealed who he really was. And he was exactly who we thought he was. It’s incredible. I mean, you can imagine, excuse me, a scenario where you get to the end with someone you really love and it turns out that person is like not really who you thought he was.

JACK NEEL: Right.

TUCKER CARLSON: He was so much more who we thought he was. It was unbelievable. We were just like, this is insane. It was incredible. I visited him every day and I would always call my children and say — in the years before he died — and I would always dread going to see him because it’s like so hard to watch your parents age. And every single day I would leave and be like, I’m so glad I went. Like, it was amazing. So many levels.

But yeah, it was like the greatest thing he ever did for us was that death. I know, I know it sounds weird. I don’t know what to say. I’m just telling you what I experienced. But it was beyond anything I’d ever seen. He’s the toughest human being ever in a good way. Not a fake way. Not a — I’m going to kick your ass — though he was very capable of that and did do that sometimes to other people. But he was just tough in like a true sense. Like he never complained one time, like period.

I mean, he was an old-fashioned New England person born at Mass General in 1941, and he was just a product of his time. And like we — Protestant New Englanders do not complain under any circumstances. Even when they have gangrene in their feet, they do not complain, period. And he literally never did one time. Could I do that? I don’t think so. I’m a product of a different time. I’m like, oh, my feet hurt. No.

What Would You Ask God?

JACK NEEL: When you think about this conversation, the spiritual war going on, and the last 30 years of your career, it seems to me that the one thing you’ve valued above everything else is getting to the truth, trying to speak the truth when you can, and hopefully you’ll be rewarded for it by getting to ask the one person who can actually give you all the answers you want. Assuming you’ll go to heaven, what’s the one question you would ask God?

TUCKER CARLSON: Gosh. Can you let all my loved ones in? If I may get up and argue on everyone else’s behalf.

JACK NEEL: Or I guess, what would you ask him now?

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, what should I do? I mean, that is the question I ask. It’s so unclear sometimes. The right decisions, what to say, what to try to inspire in other people. My problem has always been saying too much, talking too much. There are all kinds of warnings all throughout the Bible — Psalms, Proverbs, New Testament — to shut up once in a while and be thoughtful about what you say. I’ve always had a problem with that. I always talk too much, and I know that it’s bad, and I know that sometimes I play out my inner monologue in public, and I think that it has a bad effect on people, makes people paranoid or nihilistic, or — it’s all fake, it’s not worth participating — it makes people hopeless. Those are my worries for my own behavior.

I also have the capacity to be mean. I’m constantly calling Tom Cotton gay or whatever, which I shouldn’t be doing, or Lindsey Graham or whatever. And I get so mad I can’t control myself, so I’m mean, and then I pretend I’m not mean, but actually that is meant in cruelty, which is wrong. So getting control of myself is a lifelong struggle and I’m not very good at it.

But like, what should I be focused on? What should I be saying? Because you get to the bottom — or what you think at least is the bottom — of a lot of these mysteries, and this is how I feel anyway, and I was like, yeah, I kind of knew that. 9/11 was pretty fake. Okay. What do you do with that? I don’t think it was entirely fake, but it was pretty fake. And okay. But what, what’s that worth saying? Because — why? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is the point? Like, what am I trying to get other people to believe and to do? And I spend very little time thinking about that. And I want to think about that more.

Because you never think anyone’s watching. I mean, that’s the other thing. To me, everything is my childhood. It’s like the endless dinner party. That was always our family, and to this day is our family’s main form of entertainment, dinner parties. Always had dinner parties, always. Place cards and a bunch of people at the table, play games and have conversations. And that’s just my whole life — sitting at a table talking. And so sometimes I am not mindful or thoughtful about the effect on listeners. Do you know what I mean? And you can radicalize people by saying stuff that I think is true, by the way. I’m not attempting — I’m not doing it for ratings or whatever. I’ve never cared about that. Ask anyone who works here. But I am not thoughtful about the effects sometimes.

So the question really is like, what should I be doing? What should I be talking about? Can’t do another segment on how 9/11 was fake. Okay, we know that. So what next? And I think I want to do segments that express the joy of life, because I do feel like there’s a lot of joy in life. Other people, nature — those are the sources of joy for me. And how do I inspire that in other people? How do I uplift, not just tear down? Does that make sense?

Talking About God More

JACK NEEL: What would you guess he might say?

TUCKER CARLSON: Well, I should be talking about God more. I mean, that’s the truth. I should be talking about God more. That’s what matters. What matters is what happens in eternity. What matters is how you treat other people. And all of that is dependent on how you feel about God. And I should — and I’m just embarrassed because — this is not false humility, it’s true. I am very aware of my own shortcomings as a man, my own sins. And I’m also not from that culture at all where people talk about God all the time. It was always very — the culture I’m from, it’s like, don’t talk about that. God or money, like, no. So it is hard for me to talk about it, but I feel like I should be talking about it more.

JACK NEEL: I came to a similar realization, I would say. So I went on my first podcast, talked about God a little bit.

TUCKER CARLSON: How’d it go?

JACK NEEL: It was good. I was trying to maintain this conscious effort of — how do I say truth while also telling people that sometimes it’s not worth looking into the abyss because it can pollute your mind. You can misunderstand it.

TUCKER CARLSON: That is true.

JACK NEEL: And ultimately, like, everything that’s happening now seems to me like it leads people down a path of anxiety. And I don’t know, when you’re anxious, there are two things you can do. You can pray to God or you can build technology. If it’s dark and you’re scared, you could pray to God, say that it’ll be okay, or you can start a fire.

TUCKER CARLSON: That was the first technology. We’re stockpiling.

JACK NEEL: Kind of goes out from there. Right. Yeah. Those people might invade us, so we have to get guns so they don’t do so.

TUCKER CARLSON: I bought a lot of ammo. I’ll be honest. I’m an anxiety ammo buyer, but you’re right. It’s stupid. It is stupid. I mean, I like to shoot, but anxiety ammo buying is dumb, but boy, have I done a lot of it.

No, I think you’re right. Inspiring people rather than discouraging them, encouraging people not to stare at darkness is so important. And I think being joyful really helps. The Iran war has definitely derailed me in this category. I’ve been so mad about it that it’s unhealthy. I’m coming out of that, but I just — whatever, I thought that I could influence the outcome, I couldn’t. So part of it is wounded vanity, I guess, probably. But part of it is just like, this is bad, man. So I’ve been staring at the darkness too much.

And that’s not — by the way, in my personal life, I’m not like that at all. I mean, I’m only like that at work. We don’t talk about this stuff at my house. We talk about our family, which is big, huge, and interesting. And I could live in family world full time. Wouldn’t make any money, wouldn’t, you know, it probably wouldn’t be healthy for anyone else, but I could never leave my house and have various people come and stay with us and be involved in all the dramas and the triumphs and the limited sadness and just the lives of people I love. I mean, I could do that literally full-time. And I think we should all do more of that, by the way.

So I should probably convey the joy that I feel every single day. Every single day I feel happy to be alive and happy for all the gifts, mostly of nature and sunshine and grass and pine trees and spaniels. I really feel that stuff so intensely. It’s crazy. But I almost never — it’s always like, “Ah, the people who run the country are horrible,” which is so true. But on the other hand, they’re already being punished, right? Because they live in a world without pine trees or spaniels or sunshine. They’re indoors plotting world domination. Well, the joke’s on them. It’s not worth it. The prizes you seek are not worth having. They will not make you happy. They will make you miserable.

Having a billion dollars is not the road to happiness. I know a lot of people who do, and they’re not happy. Having a wife who respects you and kids who thrive and dogs on the bed — that’s way more important than a billion dollars. And I should just say that more, rather than beat up on people who are already suffering. Like, the people who are suffering most — when you think Lindsey Graham is happy, I should look at Lindsey Graham the way God looks at Lindsey Graham, or looks at all of us, by the way, with empathy. You’re not happy, or you wouldn’t be calling for the murder of civilians. Happy people don’t do that, right?

JACK NEEL: The kind of person some people might have to become to be a billionaire is often the kind of person that can’t make themselves happier. And the only thing that they find joy in is making others unhappy.

TUCKER CARLSON: Yeah. If you make a billion dollars as a byproduct of doing something awesome, great. I don’t have a problem with it at all. But if your goal is to make a billion dollars, you’re sick and you’re also dumb, because that is not the road to happiness at all. It’s the road to misery. Literal misery. It’s crazy.

I was in some country a couple of years ago. I was in the Middle East and I was having dinner with somebody who mentioned Larry Fink, who runs BlackRock. I don’t know Larry Fink, never even met him, but I was like, “Ugh, Larry Fink, what a bad guy, pushing ESG and climate cult crap and just basically hurting the world for his own benefit.” And this guy goes, “Do you know Larry Fink?” I said, “No, I never even met him.” He goes, “I know him. I was just with him in New York. There’s not an unhappier person in the world.” He goes, “I was just in the back of a car with Larry Fink and his wife called or somebody called. He was screaming at the person.” I was like, “Really, in front of you?” He goes, “Yeah, he couldn’t help himself. He’s just that unhappy.”

And I thought, man, that’s all of them. That’s all the people that I’m mad at for misusing their power and for not loving the people they lead. They’re all in full misery. And for all my many faults, I’m literally happy all the time, every day. So I should be compassionate. I should be saying prayers for Larry Fink. I shouldn’t be fulminating about Larry Fink, saying he should go to jail. He’s already there, dude. It’s just in his head.

Final Advice: Truth, Marriage, and Happiness

JACK NEEL: Last question here, because I know you have to run. Tucker, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever received?

TUCKER CARLSON: There are two. One is broad, one is narrow.

The broad is: if you force yourself to be honest in all things — which does not mean disclosing all things, doesn’t mean making your life fully transparent to the world or your internal deliberations public, you don’t have to do that, but not lying. It’s a negative commandment. Don’t lie. If you really push yourself on that, first of all, the first thing you’ll realize is how much you lie, which is constantly about small things. You shade things or you steer. If you fight against that, you’ll never fully defeat it. But if you can fight against it, you will be so much stronger.

Lying makes you weak. And every time you lie, you become weaker because you know it’s a lie, and so you have to keep on this ill-fitting costume. So just try to make a daily discipline out of telling the truth in the small things. And you become filled with holy power when you do that. It’s just a fact.

And the second piece of advice, which I always sort of knew, but I’d never heard anyone say it — it is the truest thing. If you want happy children, have a happy marriage. That is the truest thing. And the most important thing is happy children. What are you doing here? Creating is the most important thing. And the ultimate act of creation in this life is having children, creating children, which is fun, by the way.

But how do you make them happy? I always noticed raising kids — I had kids young — there’s no handbook or anything at all. There aren’t even many books on it because there’s no real answer other than love your children. Well, how do you do that? The number one thing is by getting along with your wife. If you have a happy marriage, you will have happy children. It’s literally that simple. I believe that. I’ve seen it. It’s true for people close to me. The happier the marriage, the happier the kids, the more secure the children will become.

And I sincerely think that people spend too much time focused on their kids as an emotional safety release valve, where they’re frustrated and kids give you easy affirmation, which is all great. But your first priority is to your wife, number one. And men need to hear that. And it just pays off. It’s much harder to get affirmation from your wife than from your children. I mean, she sees you when you get out of the shower. She’s just not that impressed after a while on that level. But take your marriage so seriously. It’s super easy. It’s not hard. You just have to pay attention. That’s the discipline — just paying attention. That pays off more than anything. Nothing pays off like that.

That’s one of those investments that just — the returns you get off that, it’s crazy. By the way, you married her in the first place, you like her. They’re pretty easy to get along with if you just try. But people don’t try and they get frustrated and they run away, and they almost always run into the arms not of their mistress but of their children. That’s the real cheating that takes place. It’s not with the girlfriends, it’s with the kids. It’s emotional.

You don’t understand your wife. It’s complicated. You’re sleeping with her, so it’s complicated. It’s always complicated. And you’re so close to her that these conflicts can arise. And rather than work through them — fix them just by listening, nothing complex — you seek the sugar high of the love of a 6-year-old and you tell yourself that that’s a good thing. I mean, it’s always a good thing to experience the love of a 6-year-old. It’s an incredibly beautiful thing. But it’s also a dodge in a lot of ways.

Focus on your wife and the kid stuff is just organic. It just naturally flows from a happy marriage. It’s like the easiest, funnest thing ever, with some minor interruptions — namely 8th grade if you have daughters. But other than that, it’s really easy.

But if you have an unhappy marriage, everything is hell. Everything is hell. There’s no way out of that hell. There’s literally no solution. You can have a girlfriend, you can go to hookers, you can become an alcoholic, you can run away and play golf all the time. You can get divorced. Doesn’t matter. You’re not getting out of the hell. There’s no way out. Once you get married, if you don’t have a happy marriage, you can make it better, I guess. Leaving an unhappy marriage could make it better, but you’ll never really solve it. Because you are joined to that person permanently. That’s just a fact whether we want it to be or not.

So yeah, focus on that. That’s my advice.

JACK NEEL: Beautiful. Well, everyone, this has been your guest, Tucker Carlson. This is the Jack Neel Podcast. I appreciate you coming on.

TUCKER CARLSON: Oh, dude, I love it. Yeah.

JACK NEEL: Awesome.

TUCKER CARLSON: That was fun.

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