1992 Interview: Donald Trump on Retribution (Full Transcript)

I have to tell you this. You’re really in a position where I think that if you had to do it again, I’m not sure you could.

I went through a period of 2 years that was truly tough. You have parents and you have people that adore you and you have people that for 15 years nothing went wrong. And then all of a sudden the world seems to be coming to an end. It was just sort of an incredible experience for me.

Did you have to go to your father and say, “Bail me out, help me, help me get through this crisis one more time?” My father wouldn’t have been in a position to bail me out, but he certainly helped morally and in any way he could. My mother was great. I have a sister who’s a federal judge, and she’s very, very strong. She’s a fantastic woman. I never knew as to loyalty whether or not she’d be there or wouldn’t be there, and she was there in spades.

Other people were there, but the incredible thing is you can’t really tell who’s going to be there and who’s not. I would have bet my life on certain people. I would have said, politically speaking, that somebody that you know, Andrew Stein, would have been there, and he wasn’t. I would have said that other people —

CHARLIE ROSE: He wasn’t there for what?

DONALD TRUMP: He wasn’t there in terms of — for 15 years I supported Andrew Stein, supported him. I never asked him for a thing. When I needed a vote on Riverside South, until the very end when everybody else was on board, Andrew was not there, and I was really surprised at that. Now ultimately, he was there, but it shouldn’t have been so difficult. It really shouldn’t have been so difficult.

On Vindictiveness and Loyalty

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay, but here comes one of the things that they say about you — that there are ticks within you of vindictiveness about that, and you’re not going to forget that. And part of the Trump style is to, at some point, try to get Stein back.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I don’t think I’m going to try and get Stein back. I’m just disappointed. I’m disappointed in other people, and I’m not disappointed in some. There have been people that were much more — a man like Alan Greenberg of Bear Stearns who would call me every day during the trauma.

CHARLIE ROSE: What would he say?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, he’d just call me and he’d boost me. He’d say, “Just keep fighting, just keep fighting.” He’s really a phenomenal guy and a great leader, and that’s why Bear Stearns — without any big parent company — Bear Stearns has just done tremendously well. Alan has been a really loyal friend, and I’ve had a lot of other loyal friends.

But the thing — and I guess I’m going to go into this in the third book — I do one book, it’s a bestseller. I do another book, it’s a number one bestseller. Both books were number one. I think, frankly, this is the best book. I think this will be the best book because I really believe I know much more now than I did for the other two. I’ve learned about hardship, something which really I didn’t know.

I went to the best school, I did great. You go to the Wharton School of Finance, you go through it easily, you do fantastically well, everything goes smooth. You get out of school, you make a lot of money, every deal works out. It was sort of like just a series of — you couldn’t make a mistake.

CHARLIE ROSE: Did you think you were invincible at that time?

DONALD TRUMP: I never thought I was invincible because I’ve seen too much and you have to learn from history about others. So I never thought I was invincible, but I had a 15-year run that was virtually unprecedented. I had a tremendous run and all of a sudden 1990 hit. And I remember there was an article, “Welcome to the ’90s, Donald.” But 1990 hit and the economy was crashing and the banks were crashing and everything was crashing. And what happened is I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about other people.

What the Hard Times Taught Him

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay, but you keep saying, “I learned, I learned.” What did you learn about yourself?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think I learned for real that I’m a pretty tough guy because it takes a tough guy. It takes the brains and it takes the toughness, because to go through a period of turmoil where everything seems to be going in the wrong direction and survive it — and end up, as they say in my new magazine covers, coming back.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, what they say here — what Greenberg said — is that Trump went from owning 100% of nothing to 50% of something that’s making money. Fair?

DONALD TRUMP: He actually said making a lot of money.

CHARLIE ROSE: That’s right. He did say that.

DONALD TRUMP: What’s happened is that the casinos have turned out to be tremendous for me. And again, a lot of people were criticizing the move into the casinos, but they’ve really turned out to be tremendous. Real estate in New York is starting to come back on a very slow basis. I don’t know how long it’s going to take. I think it’s going to take a long time. But the casinos in particular have been fantastic.

It’s just worked out for me. It hasn’t worked out for a lot of other people. I think a lot of that has to do with an inner strength, and that’s what I’m going to be writing about. A lot of it also, though, has to do with other people, the loyalties of other people, how you treated other people so that maybe they are loyal.

Family During the Crisis

CHARLIE ROSE: Did it split the family? Did it cause division between you and your brother?

DONALD TRUMP: It didn’t cause division. I was a little disappointed in my brother. I thought he would have fought harder than he did. I was the opposite of my sister. I have a sister who is really a phenomenal lady, and she really —

CHARLIE ROSE: This is the judge?

DONALD TRUMP: The judge. And she really was just tremendous. My other sister likewise was tremendous. My parents have always been — and I would expect them to be. You know, it’s interesting. One of my attorneys said, “Always count on your mother.” I maybe took advantage of my mother. I never appreciated her as much, but she was really fantastic.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, it is also said you came out in defense of Mike Tyson, and there was — it is said that your mother said, “Enough, Donald, shut up.”

DONALD TRUMP: I think that’s probably the first time my mother absolutely got angry at me. I really mean that. My mother was so crazy when I came out in defense of Mike Tyson. And part of the reason I came out and said — and your mother’s 80-something?

CHARLIE ROSE: My mother’s 80 years old. And part of the reason that —

DONALD TRUMP: Tough enough to survive a muggy —

Mike Tyson Case and Legal Representation

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, she’s tough, she’s tough, but she’s quality. I mean, more than tough, she’s quality. So she said what? Well, she didn’t exactly like the fact that I was defending Iron Mike, but I watched what happened to Mike Tyson. I watched how badly he was represented by an attorney in Washington that was charging him $3 or $4 or $5 million against a local attorney, the best within 100 miles that the state hired, who just ate the other man’s lunch.

And I watched the way he did it, and I watched, or I heard about a girl that late in the evening knocked on his door, was taken in, was raped, perhaps, perhaps not, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know. Again, I think he was very badly represented. But I did see that number one, she knocks late in the night. Number two, she’s dancing in a beauty contest at 8 in the morning, and I saw the tapes, and I see the big smile on her face, and she’s dancing happily at 8 in the morning.

And now Mike Tyson’s in jail for 4 or 5 or 6 years. I had a real problem with that case. I had a real problem with Mike Tyson’s lawyers. I had a real problem with Don King. I just think that he was, he was really fed out to the wolves.

CHARLIE ROSE: But if in fact he raped her in that hotel room, regardless of whether she came there, you think that he should have been convicted and should have gone to the slammer?

DONALD TRUMP: He to this day denies it. I don’t know that it happened, and I think that as they said, if he didn’t testify, he would have been exonerated totally. The jury said that. Mike was arrogant. He was a horrible witness from what I understand, and I’m not surprised. I mean, I would say that generally speaking, you don’t put Mike on as a witness, but he was a horrible witness. And to get 4 or 5 or 6 years, I think that there was just too many circumstances. Again, she was in a beauty contest and she was dancing with a big smile on her face at 8 o’clock in the morning. 8 o’clock in the morning.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but the jury sat there and they listened to her too. They had an opportunity to hear her and test her credibility. As they heard it, and also to face questions. This guy’s not a bad lawyer. He may have handled this case bad, but he is the same man that represented John Hinckley and others and had an extraordinary reputation in a very good Washington firm.

DONALD TRUMP: I watched Mike, and I’ve been with Mike, and I’ve seen him, and people really take advantage of this man. And I want to tell you something, I think this is one of those examples. Now, I know we have a system of juries, and I know we have a system where if you’re found guilty, you’re guilty. But somebody like me, maybe, who has a little bit more independent streak, can say, “Hey, Mike Tyson in my opinion, should really be given another break.” I mean, they put him in jail before he was even guilty, as far as I was concerned.

Tyson’s Future in Boxing

CHARLIE ROSE: Do you believe he’ll fight again, and do you believe he’ll ever be the heavyweight champ again? I think he’ll fight again.

DONALD TRUMP: I don’t know that he’ll be the heavyweight champ again. In the prison that he’s in, they don’t allow boxing. That’s a long layoff. Some of the young fighters that are coming up in the heavyweight division are great.

CHARLIE ROSE: But Ali came back from the years that he was off.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, Ali came back. Ali was totally unique. He was a unique man. And maybe Mike will come back. I think Mike probably will be the champion again. But you have some young fighters coming up, heavyweight fighters like Lennox Lewis, who is absolutely phenomenal. You think Holyfield is going to lose? I think Holyfield— I’m not sure if he’s going to lose now, but I think your next champion is going to be Lennox Lewis.

CHARLIE ROSE: Boy, he sure did a number on this.

DONALD TRUMP: No, he was incredible in London the other day. I mean, he knocked out— first round, wasn’t it? Second round. And this gentleman went 18 or 20 rounds with Mike.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, that was his claim to fame, that he survived being in the ring with Tyson.

DONALD TRUMP: Lennox Lewis is probably the real thing. I mean, he could be the first real thing since Mike, and it’ll be interesting, and he’s younger, and he’s this and that. What is your fascination?

Trump’s Athletic Side and Golf

CHARLIE ROSE: Are you an athlete?

DONALD TRUMP: I am pretty much of an athlete.

CHARLIE ROSE: Scratch golfer or close to?

DONALD TRUMP: Scratch golfer.

CHARLIE ROSE: You mean like you do par 72, 73? On good courses? Up against good players?

DONALD TRUMP: Up against good players.

CHARLIE ROSE: For money or not for money?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I like playing for money because it gives you an interest. I mean, it really does. Golf was something that really helped me through a period. When I was really, you know, there’s a point at which you can’t push. You have to sort of sit back and wait and see how the chips are falling.

CHARLIE ROSE: And during the adversity period.

DONALD TRUMP: During the adversity period. And I’d go out on the golf course and sometimes I’d go out with some friends who were good golfers and you’d play and you really don’t think about all of the problems of the world and the problems of everything. And again, you know, I like to blame myself, but I mean, one of the things is frankly, I was doing so well and it was all so easy that I took it easy. And all of a sudden I started relying on other people and I said, “Listen, you went to the Wharton School of Finance, you’re a genius, you take care of this and you take care of that.” And I stopped, and I got rid of people, and I did it myself, and since then, things have been fantastic. I mean, it’s just been—

CHARLIE ROSE: ’92 is the best year of your life?

DONALD TRUMP: I think ’92 could be certainly one of the best years of my life because it really all came together for me financially speaking and in so many other ways.

Financial Troubles and the 1986 Tax Law

CHARLIE ROSE: I read all these numbers, and this is not investigative journalism here. We’re interested in what makes you tick, and we don’t have the resources or the manpower or the time doing a nightly show to do what somebody would do if they spent 6 months working on a piece about you.

DONALD TRUMP: But you do have the brains, so—

CHARLIE ROSE: Help me with the numbers. Are you— do you owe $5 billion?

DONALD TRUMP: No, at one point I guess I owed pretty close to $5 billion, but I had assets far in excess of that. And they passed a 1986 tax law, which was just absolute stupidity by the politicians.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but a lot of people supported that. I mean, Nerman and Baker and Bill Bradley and a lot of other people. Bradley’s a jerk. It was the tax reform act of all time.

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, I like Bill Bradley.

CHARLIE ROSE: And Jack Kemp too, did he not?

DONALD TRUMP: I like Bill Bradley and I like a lot of the people that you mentioned and they didn’t really support, but Bill Bradley did very much.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, Bradley was, he was right.

DONALD TRUMP: And I have to tell you, he destroyed the home building industry in the United States. He destroyed the savings and loans industry.

CHARLIE ROSE: The tax reform act of ’86 did?

DONALD TRUMP: Absolutely, absolutely. What happened is incentive was taken out of the real estate industry and the industries such as savings and loans, they’re based on real estate. And when the values went down and they plummeted, they absolutely plummeted. So the savings and loans had billions of dollars in real estate that now all of a sudden is one half the billions of dollars in real estate.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but you know better than I do is that during that time, I mean, the savings and loan crisis came about because a lot of savings and loan lent a lot of money to developers that were bad loans and should not ever have been made. And then all of a sudden—

DONALD TRUMP: That’s true. That’s true. And I have to tell you, it’s 100% true. But a lot of that was exacerbated. A lot of loans that could have been good loans were made into bad loans because of the change, because of the 1986 tax law change. And what that did is all of a sudden you had resolution trust and you’re paying billions and billions. In order to save $5 billion in taxes, we’re now paying trillions of dollars to save industries and save banks.

CHARLIE ROSE: And some people have come along and made a ton of money because of resolution trust.

DONALD TRUMP: Exactly, a lot of money. And some people—

CHARLIE ROSE: I see where Ron Perlman the other day made a billion dollars or something.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I don’t know what he made, but I, frankly, he’s a good man. I hope he did make a lot of money, but it’s the government’s fault. The government passed a very stupid law. They have to put the incentive back into real estate. I think they’re doing it. I think they’re going to do it. It creates jobs.

Overextension, Debt, and Business Risk

CHARLIE ROSE: Here’s the other side. It is that people, with great entrepreneurial gifts like you, get yourself extended too far, too much debt and too much extension. And then when, as it happens in America, there is a business cycle, and when the economy goes up and goes down, if you get yourself extended too far and you’ve got a huge debt service, all of a sudden push comes to shove and you find yourself in a very, very, between a rock and a hard place. And it’s that, the extending yourself too far that causes so many people to come to ruin.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think you’re right. I mean, I think I’m not going to, you know, not take blame for that. I think everybody takes blame for that because anybody that does anything— the only people that don’t get in trouble are the people that don’t do anything.

CHARLIE ROSE: Sure, if you play it safe and no risk, then there’s no reward.

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, when I do things, I built the Taj Mahal. They said a billion-dollar building, how can it possibly— and now it’s turned out to be tremendously successful. It takes time. You got to be able to get over the hump. Riverside South is going to be a tremendous success.

Riverside South Development

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, let’s stop at Riverside South though. First of all, what did you— here is one of the arguments made about Riverside South, that you faced a huge opposition on the part of the planning commission, a lot of people who did not want to see a huge development over there. You turned it around, and most people give you the credit for turning around. So you know, was it 9-0? How many people on the commission? I don’t remember. 12-0 vote. 12-0 vote. How did you do it, and did you make so many concessions in doing it that it no longer is an economically viable project?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, the only way you can talk about viability is what’s going to happen with the market. Today nothing’s viable, okay? Today nothing is viable. If you could have the greatest piece of land in the best location in New York and nothing’s viable. When I did the Grand Hyatt Hotel, I will tell you the hotel market was in shambles. Everybody said, “Donald, you’re crazy,” and I was crazy and I did it and all of a sudden I got it zoned, I started building it, and by the time it opened it was a tremendous job.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but would it have been successful without the zoning and the abatements?

DONALD TRUMP: No, it wouldn’t have. I mean, it wouldn’t have.

CHARLIE ROSE: But I got the zoning.

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, absolutely. And now what we’re doing is we’re asking for certain things in order to make Riverside South successful. We have tremendous popularity. Every civic association virtually in New York is supporting it.

CHARLIE ROSE: But they’re supporting it because of the concessions you made in terms of subway and buildings of a higher cost and all of that kind of thing. And so the question remains, well, the bottom line—

DONALD TRUMP: Can you deliver on it? Yeah, the bottom line is if the market comes back, you deliver. If the market doesn’t come back, you don’t deliver. Now maybe Clinton’s going to come up with a housing program where you’re getting subsidized housing or something, in which case you do it in a different way.

We’re looking to get zoning for a piece of land that’s unzoned, that’s employing no people, that’s sitting there rotting, that’s rat-infested, and if I get the zoning, which I hope to be able to get, the city desperately needs the job, if the city turns around and if the economy turns around and if incentives are put back into real estate on a federal basis, on a federal— If, if, if. No, no, there’s always ifs, but there’s been ifs in everything I ever did.

When I did Trump Tower, in all fairness, people said I was totally crazy. It couldn’t possibly succeed. It was too big, it was too expensive, it was too everything. And it turned out to be probably the most successful condominium development ever in this country.

CHARLIE ROSE: And is it profitable? Trump Tower?

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah. The most. I mean, it was the most successful development ever built in this country on a condominium basis. I will tell you, 2 years before I started construction, people thought I was totally crazy to do it. It really worked out to be fantastic. You can say the Taj Mahal, you can say Trump Plaza. I mean, so many of the jobs I do at the time I’m doing them are supposed to be not good, and they turn out to be tremendous.

The Banks and the Comeback

CHARLIE ROSE: Who makes the decision as to when you go? Is that a decision made by you, or is that decision made by the bankers?

DONALD TRUMP: No, no, no.

CHARLIE ROSE: And are you going to parcel those projects off?

DONALD TRUMP: I’ll tell you what, the city is lucky to have the bankers that I have on my job because they’ve invested a lot. They have confidence in me, they have confidence in the city, and frankly, they’re very lucky because otherwise it could be a war, it could be a this, it could be a that, and that would be bad for everybody. I mean, I have some really great banks on this particular site and they’ve gone with me and they believe in me. And I’ll tell you what, it’s going to be— I think ultimately the decision is going to be right and it’s going to be a great success.

CHARLIE ROSE: You know what they say, when you owe as much money as you did, they become your partners.

DONALD TRUMP: But that’s really a false statement because Reichman owed a lot more money than me and nobody’s partners with Reichman. And he went bankrupt. Reichman’s in deep trouble.

CHARLIE ROSE: Are they in bankruptcy? I want to be fair to them.

DONALD TRUMP: They are in bankruptcy, and frankly, they’re in just very deep trouble. The banks, my banks have had a great confidence in me. They know I’m good. They know I do it the best, and they also know that I’m honest.

CHARLIE ROSE: But did they have a choice? Oh, absolutely. They had a lot of money to take. Were the assets enough there to get their loan back?

DONALD TRUMP: I’m not saying I would have been easy had the other route gone, but I will tell you this, I will tell you this, they absolutely had a choice, and they could have gone a different route. What’s the route they could have gone? Well, it could have been a contentious route rather than working with me, et cetera, et cetera. It could have been a contentious route and that would’ve been bad for me, would’ve been bad for them.

CHARLIE ROSE: They could have put you up against the wall and said, “You owe us this money, you can’t pay it back, we call the tune.” They could have done that.

DONALD TRUMP: And I think if they did that, it would’ve been bad for everybody, including them. And I think they understood that. But more importantly, see, I found out—

CHARLIE ROSE: Bad for them because they would’ve lost money.

DONALD TRUMP: Very much. I think so. I think so. A couple of things about banks. First of all, I find the banks to be very, very underrated in terms of the intelligence level, the whole thing. I mean, I have worked with the banks now very closely for a period of 2 years, and these guys have done a fantastic job, at least as far as my stuff is concerned.

I’ve done great for them, and they’ve done great for me, and my thing is back. I mean, I believe that in 6 months, in 12 months, I may be stronger than I was 2 years ago or 3 years ago. I think I will be stronger than I was 2 or 3 years ago. I would like to see an uptick in the market. I think you’re going to have an uptick in the market.

Selling Assets and Reducing Debt

CHARLIE ROSE: Why do you think you’ll be stronger? I mean, now that you clearly have given up equity.

DONALD TRUMP: Very little equity. What have I given up? You know, the story is that I gave up equity. What have I given up? I sold the shuttle for a lot of money.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, was it— was that— you made more money than— you sold it for more money than you paid for or not?

DONALD TRUMP: No, no, no. I’ll tell you what.

CHARLIE ROSE: Because you sold it for a lot of money but sold it for less than you paid for. It’s not positive.

DONALD TRUMP: No, no, no. I didn’t reduce— not for less. I reduced my debt by hundreds of millions of dollars by the sale of the shuttle. And it worked out—

CHARLIE ROSE: You sold it for less than you paid for it.

DONALD TRUMP: No, I didn’t. I actually sold it probably for more than I paid for it, but it’s a very complex formula that if you sit down with a pencil and paper, we can maybe figure it out someday in 5 years because it’s a long-term deal. We don’t want to bore everybody with it, but I sold the shuttle. I got rid of a tremendous amount of debt. I got rid of a lot of personal guarantees. The Taj Mahal—

CHARLIE ROSE: Personal guarantees are unsecured loans from friends or what?

DONALD TRUMP: No, personal guarantees being personal guarantees to banks where I personally guarantee a piece of a loan. Basically, if you take the Atlantic City properties, I have up to 80% of the Taj Mahal. It’s the thing making a fortune. Now I have solar—

CHARLIE ROSE: Is it making a fortune? Stay with me and ask this question. Is it making a fortune or is it generating a fortune in revenue but it has a fortune plus in expenses?

DONALD TRUMP: No, it has a big fortune in expenses. I mean, it’s run first class. It’s a 4-star hotel.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay, but that’s the point then. How much of this in the end is net-net cash flow? Or how much is it simply that a lot of money is flowing in, but also out the other door is a lot of money going the other way?

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, I’ll give you an example. We’ll have probably $80 million in interest. I think the Taj could have a cash flow of maybe $30 to $40 million after debt. Yeah, that’s some cash flow. Now that’s a great cash flow. Now what do I do with it? I do with the West Side Yards, I do the Riverside South, I do other things. But the Taj Mahal’s turned out very successfully. Trump Plaza, I own 100% of Trump Plaza. You know, there’s this misnomer that I sold, I this, I that. I sold very little. I mean, when you think of it, I sold very little.

CHARLIE ROSE: But why then would your friend Greenberg from Bear Stearns say, “He used to own 100% of assets that were worth nothing. Now he owns 50% of things that are making a lot of money.”

DONALD TRUMP: Well, what happened in Atlantic City— that’s a difference. Well, there is a difference. And I own 50% of the castle. But when I say I own 50%, I’m also paying much less interest because I sold 50% to bondholders. And in return for that, I got a reduction in debt, a reduction of this, and a reduction in interest. Making a lot more money. In Trump Plaza’s case in Atlantic City, I own 100% of it. And that is turning out to be fantastic.

CHARLIE ROSE: I take your word on all of this.

DONALD TRUMP: By the way, Charlie, I have to tell you, because of the fact— and a big difference is, and that’s why you see in all the casino things— because of the fact that I’m a zero.

CHARLIE ROSE: They want to see you as a winner because if you’re a winner, it means that they’re a winner.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, they don’t want to see me as a winner actually, because I have to tell you, when things started going bad, I was on the cover but instead of my hands being up, I had my chin down. So nobody wants to see me build it.

Embarrassment and the Fight to Survive

CHARLIE ROSE: Let me just stay with that image for a second. Was it embarrassing for you? You know, they say about you, they took his toys away. They took his yacht away. They took his—

DONALD TRUMP: Nobody took it away. I sold my yacht.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but I mean, did the banks put you on an allowance or not? I mean, help us understand how bad it got for you and whether you were embarrassed and whether you said, wow.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, when you say embarrassed, I didn’t love waking up in the morning and walking out to see—

CHARLIE ROSE: But help us understand that. I mean, you were a guy who was the big winner and all of a sudden the papers front a story that’s saying, “Trump in trouble. Trump golden boy no longer has Midas touch.”

DONALD TRUMP: Right. You know, I’ll tell you what the hardest part is and the hardest thing about life to understand. In baseball, if you get 15 runs in the first inning and you don’t get any more runs, you still have 15 runs at the end of the game.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, it depends on what the other guy does.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, no, but generally speaking, you’re going to win that game, okay? You know, as sad as it is to say, but you’re going to win that game. You get 15 runs, it’s pretty well over.

CHARLIE ROSE: Ask the Atlanta Braves.

DONALD TRUMP: Okay, I mean, we’ve seen some examples, but anyway. In life, I was 15-0, and then I had one very bad year. Now, I had a bad year, maybe it was my fault because, hey, it was a lot of people’s fault. It was also the government’s fault. It was a lot of people’s fault.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but you take some responsibility though.

DONALD TRUMP: Absolutely, absolutely. You have to. Because I’d be a fool if I didn’t. But I have to tell you, a lot of smart people are in real deep trouble right now, and I’m not. And a lot of people, really smart people, are dead. They’re gone, they’re buried, they’re over in history.

CHARLIE ROSE: And one more time, why are they dead?

DONALD TRUMP: Buried, gone, history, and you are alive, well, and as they say, “I’m coming.” Before I explain that, before I explain that, I just want to say that you have 15 great years, you have 1 bad year, and people judge you by your last thing. You’re only as good as your last thing. You’re only as good as your last article or what you’ve done lately, and that’s it.

I mean, you take a guy like Harry Helmsley, I mean, the man had 50 great years. Then unfortunately he married Leona. I mean, this was like a major mistake.

CHARLIE ROSE: Here we go again.

DONALD TRUMP: He marries Leona. Poor Harry, I feel so sorry for you. Harry, get rid of her. Just leave her alone. Find a new woman if you can. But I’ll tell you what, he marries Leona, so now all of a sudden he has a couple of bad years, to put it mildly, bad years. I mean, we’re talking about major— they don’t say the score is 50 to 2. No, they don’t say the score is 50 to 2. As far as they’re concerned, Harry is like this major failure, and that’s a shame because that’s not the way life should work. It should be 50 to 2, that’s a pretty good record.

Well, I had 15 great, then I had the one bad year, and 1.5 real bad years where I had to fight. I mean, it was a struggle. It was a survival. It was surviving at the top. I wrote the book. It was surviving at the top. And it wasn’t easy and it wasn’t pleasant.

CHARLIE ROSE: Did you ever think you’d lose? Did you ever lose confidence? Did you ever say— No. I may not get out of this? No. Not once?

Riverside South and Personal Resilience

DONALD TRUMP: Not once. And the reason I didn’t say it is because I had to go back and do it myself. You see, I built what I built myself. And I did it by working long hours and working hard and working smart. More importantly than anything else is by using my own brain. And there was a point where I was making so much so fast and it was so easy that I almost got bored. And it’s true. And I write about this. I mean, I’m writing about this. It’s really been an experience.

CHARLIE ROSE: I should believe you here saying, in a way, this was good because it gave me a chance to test myself. The adversity was good. It put me back and made me leaner and hungrier again because everything was at stake and therefore I had to pay attention.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think I’ll look at it in the future as being good. And, you know, when it was happening, I had no choice. I just had to do it. And I did it myself. And all of a sudden, I’ll give you an example. Riverside South. I’ve had Riverside South for 5 years. I’ve had the land for 5 years. I went through a succession of executives that were in charge of Riverside South. A year and a half ago, I took it over myself. And as you say, I got a 12-to-nothing vote. And you were told that I sort of did it myself. I did do it myself.

CHARLIE ROSE: I read that you did, right.

DONALD TRUMP: Okay. I mean, you can’t believe everything you read, but I did do it largely by myself with a group of people, but I really spearheaded something that’s turned out to be, I think, going to be a great thing. I really went back to work and I really did things myself, and I think that’s why I survived, and I think maybe, who knows.

Loss, Divorce, and the Tabloid Frenzy

CHARLIE ROSE: Let me point out a couple of other things here at this time. You lost during this period 3 key executives.

DONALD TRUMP: Correct.

CHARLIE ROSE: Very tough. And friends.

DONALD TRUMP: And friends.

CHARLIE ROSE: And then you went through some executives after that and finally put your lawyer in charge down there, right? Who’s done a great job. You had a divorce. Right. That was — you were the — fair to say people were laughing at you about this divorce. And we were amused in the tabloids. I was living in New York at the time, but we were amused by it. But at the same time, some people said, “Enough of this.”

DONALD TRUMP: “I’m tired of reading about this kind of stuff.” Oh, I would’ve loved to say enough. I mean, I couldn’t help it. It was on the front page.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but you were feeding the columnists too. I wasn’t feeding. I mean, I — You had no conversation with all these people?

DONALD TRUMP: You know, it wasn’t a feed. It was a frenzy, I have to tell you. And I wasn’t feeding anybody. They were feeding themselves. They were making up stories. I called up one of the top people in one of the New York tabloids, and I said, “Hey, look, this is ridiculous. This story didn’t happen. Don’t put it in.” He said, “I know it didn’t happen, but Donald was selling papers like crazy.” And they knew it before the story was written. They put it in anyway.

And I think for 28 days in a row — I mean, you know, we talk about Woody Allen was a big story. This thing just swamped everything. This swamped everything. This was the biggest of the big. It was crazy. It was out of control. And I guess it had all the elements of a soap opera.

The Divorce Settlement with Ivana

CHARLIE ROSE: Did it bring any satisfaction to you that during this adversity you were able to get out of the marriage at a time perhaps you gave up a lot less money than you might have imagined you would do at another time?

DONALD TRUMP: Now, come on, tell me the truth. I mean, a lot of — there were those people that say that I did this purposely in order to get out of the marriage.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, no, but there are those who said that you used that adversity as a time to say, you know, it may not ever get any better, so you better, you know, people were saying you better make your deal now.

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, I was very happy to pay Ivana what I paid her. I mean, this was what I was supposed to pay her, and this is what I did pay her, because she, if anything happened a year ago where I went down the tubes, where I really would’ve ended up with nothing, she and the children would always have been taken care of, and that was very important to me.

I mean, at the time, don’t forget, I was being sued for $2 billion at one point.

CHARLIE ROSE: By her.

DONALD TRUMP: By her. Right. And that was going to be a nasty, contentious suit, and frankly, had I not had a glitch, I would probably not be on this program right now.

CHARLIE ROSE: I’d be at divorce court. If you hadn’t had what? Oh, if you hadn’t been down into the bottom, if you hadn’t bottomed out and put some pressure on her and her attorney.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, it wasn’t a question of pressure. I mean, there was a point where she probably felt I wasn’t going to make it. I mean, there was a point where a lot of people felt I wasn’t going to make it except me. I really felt I was.

CHARLIE ROSE: Were you telling her differently that maybe? I wasn’t telling her anything. Was anybody saying, well —

DONALD TRUMP: I wasn’t telling her anything. All she had to do was read the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. I mean, they were making these dire predictions about me and others, but I guess I got more print than anybody else. That’s the negative. I mean, the good is when you’re doing well and they do that. The bad is when you’re doing bad, they do it the other way, all right? And they did it the other way times 10.

So what happened is, had I not been involved in a glitch, I don’t believe that we would be here right now. I would be studying for tomorrow’s examination before trial, okay? And what happened —

CHARLIE ROSE: You would have duked it out in a lawsuit.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think Ivana probably would’ve gone further than she did, but it got so bad and the stories began getting so bad that she said, “Well, I better take what I’m entitled to according to the contract that we had signed.” And she ended up taking the $10 million plus the this, plus the that. And it’s probably a package of $20 or $25 million. And I think she was smart in doing it in the end. I think her lawyers were horrendous. I think she was horribly represented. She could’ve gotten a lot more money earlier if she had decent lawyers.

CHARLIE ROSE: Lawyers, but she had lawyers. Meaning what? She could have gotten a lot more money at an earlier stage, been more amenable to giving more money in a settlement.

DONALD TRUMP: I offered more money than she ended up getting. But Ivana, who’s somebody that I’ll always love, she decided in her great wisdom to hire these characters that were just looking for fame and fortune for themselves, in my opinion. And they did a bad job for her. They really did. And my folks did a great job for me. I had a wonderful lawyer who did a great job for me. And in the end, though, I’m saddened by it because I would have preferred the initial deal with Ivana. She was very, very poorly represented in this divorce action.

CHARLIE ROSE: You must have some sensitivity, though, for a woman and what she might be going through. I mean, you seem all-powerful there and she doesn’t know, and she has to lean on the advice that she gets. And, you know, people are saying, “This guy’s got a lot, tons of money.” Yeah, but she was leaning on the Wall Street Journal.

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, you know, when the bad stories started coming out, she was believing those stories. And she should have believed those stories. I’m not even saying the stories were wrong. You know, I’ve done things, but I’m not saying those stories at the time were wrong. The economy was atrocious and, you know, the business was bad and the real estate business was horrendous and the casino business was bad. And we’re opening up the Taj Mahal in the middle of a war. Right. Okay, you know, I mean, I’m opening the largest building in the world.

CHARLIE ROSE: And people were not flooding Atlantic City at that point.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, no, I mean, everyone’s sitting home watching the war.

CHARLIE ROSE: And also she’s reading about you and another woman. That can’t be pleasing.

On Leaving the Marriage and the Social Scene

DONALD TRUMP: She’s reading, and I never left for another woman. I mean, this is one of the great misconceptions. I left because I got tired of the balls and tired of the ballroom gowns and all the nonsense.

CHARLIE ROSE: What does that mean?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I’m just one that doesn’t necessarily believe, you know, they call them the so-called charity events, but the people that have these charity events are probably the least charitable people I’ve ever met. And they have them for their own, you know, vilification. They have them for their own, whatever it is, they have them for their own and they want the press and they want the nonsense.

CHARLIE ROSE: Why do we care if it generates a lot of money for charity?

DONALD TRUMP: I’m not sure that it does. I’m really not sure that it does. I mean, I look at some of them and I look at the expense and I look at the magnificent table settings at the Plaza Hotel, which I’m very happy about, but at the Plaza Hotel and all the other places, and in the end I don’t think they make a hell of a lot for charity. And then I look at United Way where the man’s paid virtually millions of dollars — I used to run United Way — and I look at what happens in charities. I study charities, and there are very few well-run charities.

CHARLIE ROSE: So you got tired of the gowns and the ball and all that stuff?

DONALD TRUMP: I got tired of the scene, and I knew the scene, and I knew the people, and some of the people I like, in all fairness, and some of the people that I don’t like.

CHARLIE ROSE: They’re a vicious breed. You know someone listening to that would just hear you say that, say, “That’s not what happened. This was a guy who was on top of the world, and he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.” He wanted to be out and wanted out because he wanted to date a lot of young attractive women who viewed him as a giant catch and an interesting man to be with.

DONALD TRUMP: I’m out now and it’s great. I have to tell you, I really like it. I think it’s great. I’ve never had a better time.

CHARLIE ROSE: But tell me what’s great about it.

DONALD TRUMP: I just like it. I mean, for whatever it is, maybe I shouldn’t like it.

CHARLIE ROSE: The freedom, the independence.

DONALD TRUMP: It’s a freedom. It’s a freedom. I can do what I want. I can be with who I want to be with. I really like it. And I would tell you if I didn’t. And by the way, I think at a certain point I won’t like it. I’ll get tired of it.

CHARLIE ROSE: At a certain point you’ll say, I want to settle down with one person.

On Relationships and Settling Down

DONALD TRUMP: At a certain point, I think I’ll say that. I think I’ll say that very strongly. But, you know, at this point, I do like it. I had a fabulous wife in many respects. Great kids. Fantastic children, great children. I love them. And so therefore, that was so worthwhile. I had another friend later who was also fantastic for a fairly long period of time. And I just didn’t want to settle down. I mean, I didn’t want to get married. I didn’t want to marry Marla. And I didn’t want to settle down. And I’m just not ready for it. It’s just not me. I mean, it’s not right now. At some point —

CHARLIE ROSE: Is that what killed that relationship then?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, a lot of things perhaps killed it, but I would say that probably that’s the predominant thing. I mean, I just, I was very antsy. I didn’t want to settle. And of course, don’t forget, you know, I’m busy. I’m doing a lot of different things and I love doing it. I’m so happy now. You know, I enjoy getting up and going out to the wars. And the wars are now becoming battles. And it’s just worked out well. But you can’t devote lots of time to a relationship when you’re going through this.

CHARLIE ROSE: There is also said in this piece by Julia Baumgärtner that you love the limelight and that you seek in the public and the public’s adulation something, that the mirror of that is somehow important, confirming. True?

The Trump Image and Business Success

DONALD TRUMP: I don’t think so. I think that I loved it at one point. I think I’ve gotten used to it. I think— Did you do well? I do well in it. Well, see, I look at it differently. It’s great for my business. I mean, the fact is that my casinos are up more than, as you know, my casinos are up more than any casinos in the United States. We’re up number 1, 2, and 3 in increases in Atlantic City. Number 1, 2, and 3 every month.

CHARLIE ROSE: But are they at the same time, and I don’t want to hammer at this question, at the same time the most profitable. It’s one thing to be up in revenue, and you’re saying they’re up in revenue. You’re not necessarily saying that they are the most profitable.

DONALD TRUMP: Taj Mahal has the largest gross operating profit of any casino in Atlantic City by far, by far. Not even— it’s not even—

CHARLIE ROSE: So when you factor in expenses, it has the gross?

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, well, it also has the biggest gross. I mean, it’s got the biggest gross, but it’s got the largest gross operating profit in Atlantic City. But what’s happening is a lot of people— now I will say this, when people thought I was going down they sort of deserted me, and this is not the way it should be.

CHARLIE ROSE: Tell me who deserted you.

DONALD TRUMP: No, no, no, I’m talking about customers. I’m not only talking about local friends, this, that. When the customers, the Taj Mahal customer, when the customers, the casino customers, even the condominium buyer customer, when they thought I was going down for the count, they really did desert me. I have to say, now that they see I’m doing well again, now that they see I’m back, now that they see all these crazy magazine covers, I will tell you, one of the reasons that my casinos are up so much more is that they’re all coming back.

CHARLIE ROSE: But are you saying, therefore, it makes sense for you to promote this notion? I mean, look at this picture here. I mean, you like this. Isn’t he a handsome guy? You like this, don’t you?

DONALD TRUMP: No, I don’t really.

CHARLIE ROSE: But is it good for you to promote that because it says Donald is back and all of this stuff about scrambles off the canvas, in a sense, is good for business, so therefore you’re promoting that image? You want people to believe that you’re back.

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, as an example, it’s late in the evening right now. Now it’s not that, you’re a fantastic guy and we did this down in New Orleans, but in New Orleans it was during the afternoon, it was really much more pleasant. Right now it’s late in the evening and here we are doing an interview. Yeah, right. It happens to be.

CHARLIE ROSE: And a heck of an interview it is.

DONALD TRUMP: I hope we’re going to have a good time. I mean, I hope you get good ratings too. I do too. If it’s anything for YouTube. Yeah, exactly. But I’ll tell you what, it happens to be.

CHARLIE ROSE: Paul Boyden, no, I said, yeah, go ahead.

DONALD TRUMP: That’s right, it happens to be great for business. I mean, the fact that it’s coming back. Now it would be nice if it were the other way. If you have problems, wouldn’t it be nice if everyone came back?

CHARLIE ROSE: But apart from all that, come on. Ego. I have an ego.

DONALD TRUMP: Of course you do. I’ve never met a successful person that doesn’t have an ego.

On Ego, the Limelight, and the Trump Image

CHARLIE ROSE: Nor have I. Nor have I. People driven by it. I mean, Mother Teresa has an ego. Absolutely. You know, so you’re— Bigger than you would ever believe. Well, I’ve never had the pleasure. But nevertheless, I mean, part of it, you love the limelight. You love beyond the business and what it does and the whole sense of the Trump image. You like it. You like the fact that there’s security guys coming ahead of you and sweeping behind you. And there’s this adulation and women want to be with you and wherever you go there are flash bulbs and all of this kind of thing. You like it. I don’t mind it.

DONALD TRUMP: I don’t mind it.

CHARLIE ROSE: Don’t mind it or relish it?

DONALD TRUMP: I’ll tell you what, I used to like it more. I still like it. I probably would miss it if it weren’t here. I probably would. No, I probably would.

CHARLIE ROSE: Because you’ve grown accustomed to it as part of your— Maybe.

DONALD TRUMP: I have gotten, it’s been sort of wild. But I also think it’s great for business. I mean, it is. It’s great for the casino business. It’s great for the condominium business. It’s great. Hey, they just came out with a report, the Corcoran Report, that Trump apartments in New York sell for more on a square foot basis, which is really the only— than any apartments in New York by far. It’s not even close. A lot of that is all of this nonsense.

Regrets, Loyalty, and Getting Even

CHARLIE ROSE: Let me talk about people you ought to say sorry to, if there might be. One is, and I’m talking— one, I raised this person first, that guy in Philadelphia of you, who they say you got fired. You remember the guy who did the stock analysis?

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, I hope they say so. He did great. I mean, he came out, he did well, and now he’s my biggest champion.

CHARLIE ROSE: Okay, but you got him fired. You can’t— you gotta look back at it.

DONALD TRUMP: I can’t help that his firm fired him. Oh, now come on.

CHARLIE ROSE: Did they fire him because of a call from you?

DONALD TRUMP: I have no idea. Okay.

CHARLIE ROSE: Really, I have no idea. But don’t you have any regret for that? I mean, one man may have lost a job because you leaned on his— Because he’s a tough guy.

DONALD TRUMP: He’s a savvy guy. He’s come out great. He’s a stock analyst and he’s now my biggest champion. He’s saying it’s the greatest comeback. In fact, he used the word brilliant, I hate to tell you.

CHARLIE ROSE: What’s his name?

DONALD TRUMP: His name is Marvin Rothman.

CHARLIE ROSE: Rothman, that’s right.

DONALD TRUMP: And he was a great critic of me and now he’s saying that this was one of the most brilliant things he’s ever seen.

CHARLIE ROSE: So you did him a favor by getting him fired?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think in the long run, I think he’s probably doing better now than he was doing.

CHARLIE ROSE: So you did him a favor, that’s the—

DONALD TRUMP: Indirectly I did him a favor. I wasn’t looking to do him a favor, but I think indirectly I did.

CHARLIE ROSE: But don’t you regret that? I mean, you know, if this guy loses— No, because that’s life.

DONALD TRUMP: You can’t look back. I don’t like to look back. No regrets then?

CHARLIE ROSE: I mean, there’s no one that you’d say now— Any regrets?

DONALD TRUMP: If I had it to do again, would I have done things differently?

CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. What would you have done differently?

DONALD TRUMP: I probably, instead of stopping with the sale of the St. Moritz where I sold and I made a lot of money, I probably would have sold some other things.

CHARLIE ROSE: And that would have been a different thing?

DONALD TRUMP: I think I would have treated people differently. I think that, some of the people that were most loyal to me are people that I didn’t think would be. Some of the people that were least loyal to me are people that— You got it. I think I would’ve treated them differently. I think I would’ve treated different groups differently. I would’ve wiped the floor with the guys that weren’t loyal, which I will now do, which is great. You know, I love getting even with people, but I will— ‘Cause blow up.

CHARLIE ROSE: I was wiped. You love getting even with people.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, absolutely. You don’t believe in the eye for the eye? You do. No. I know you well enough. I think you do.

CHARLIE ROSE: But anyway, but— But tell me, I mean, you’re going to get even with some people. Big time.

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, I know, if given the opportunity. If given the opportunity, I will get even with some people that were disloyal to me. I mean, I had a group of people that were disloyal.

CHARLIE ROSE: But how do you define disloyalty?

DONALD TRUMP: They didn’t come to my aid. Well, what did they do?

CHARLIE ROSE: They turned their back on you?

DONALD TRUMP: No, but they didn’t do small things that would’ve helped. They didn’t do large things that would’ve helped.

CHARLIE ROSE: Give me one example.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I had one man who frankly was on the board of a company that I was selling, and it was a tremendous sale for me. It was a great sale, would’ve been a very helpful sale, and it ended up going through to do, but one of the things is that I had to take—

CHARLIE ROSE: This was Shuttle?

DONALD TRUMP: No, this was a different company. It doesn’t matter which company. And it was a great thing for me, but one of the things is I had to clear the board. Now I only put him on that board because of the fact I thought I was doing him a favor. He got some money by being a board member, et cetera, et cetera. He contributed nothing.

When it came time, I have 5 board members, when it came time to removing the slate and getting all my people, everyone said, “I’m leaving.” Steve Ballenbach, Harvey Friedman, everyone left except this one particular person said, “I don’t want to leave.” He told my people, “I don’t want to leave.”

Well, when I heard about it, I went nuts and I blasted him, and all of a sudden he left. But I consider that a great act of disloyalty. I put him on that board. Now, he did leave. I mean, he did leave. It’s a little like Andrew. I mean, Andrew ended up in favor of Riverside South, but for all I had done, I had never asked him for anything. This is a great job. This is a job that he should have been in favor. He had to do a poll in order to find out whether or not he was going to be disappointed.

CHARLIE ROSE: But how can you get even with Andy Stein?

DONALD TRUMP: I mean, this guy’s— It’s not a question of getting even. I can certainly be disappointed in certain people, and I was very disappointed.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, but you’ve already said an eye for an eye. I mean, he hits you, you’re going to hit him back.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I might, I might.

CHARLIE ROSE: But how would you hit him back? We’ll see.

DONALD TRUMP: Hey, time will tell, I guess, right?

CHARLIE ROSE: Are you looking for the opportunity? No, I’m not looking.

DONALD TRUMP: I’m just really so disappointed in him. I’m disappointed in other people, and I was disappointed. I was disappointed in this one man that didn’t want to get off the board. Now he got off. Okay, but that’s— he got off, so I mean, No, no, he got off. He got off after being hit over the head with a cannon, okay? What was the cannon? The cannon was me.

CHARLIE ROSE: And he ended up— What was the threat, though? I mean, did you blast him in the paper and that was enough? No, no, no. Or did you say—

DONALD TRUMP: The threat was just sort of a, just a strong threat. I mean, he would’ve gone through a lot of hell if he didn’t get off. And then he gets off and he acts like he does me a favor. He gets off, okay? He got off maybe out of fear.

CHARLIE ROSE: “You owe me, Donald, ’cause I’m getting off the board.”

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, and it was like one of the great jokes of the century, but it ended up that he got off and the deal went through. But that doesn’t mean I have to love this particular guy. It doesn’t mean I have to love him. I want somebody that’s loyal from the beginning, not somebody that’s loyal because they’re afraid or because they’re this or because they’re that. And I’ve had a lot of instances like that.

But, and I think, and again, I think the new book, and I don’t know why I’m promoting a book that’s not going to come out for 3 or 4 months. I mean, I don’t want to waste a lot of time, but I think that the most interesting— I think the most interesting aspect— that’s right, we’ll do it when you go national. That’s right. We’ll do that for the national.

Loyalty, Politics, and Personal Reflections

CHARLIE ROSE: Forget the local stuff. No, no, no, the local stuff is important.

DONALD TRUMP: Without the local stuff, no national stuff. You don’t do the second step. Exactly. I think the most interesting aspect of that book is the loyalty area, the loyalty chapters.

CHARLIE ROSE: You measure loyalty in terms of your own relationship with Roy Cohn. You feel like that you stuck by Roy Cohn and that you showed your stripes by doing that.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I don’t think I showed my stripes. My stripes, I think. You see, I’m so loyal to people, and maybe I’m loyal to a fault, but I’m so loyal to people that when somebody’s slightly disloyal to me, I look upon it as a great act of horror.

The New York Mayoral Race

CHARLIE ROSE: Who are you going to support for mayor?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I think David Dinkins, I have to tell you, has done a real good comeback. You know, you talk about comebacks. David Dinkins has done one hell of a comeback in the last 6 months. And you saw what happened in Los Angeles, and you saw what happened. People really like the man. I mean, I’ve been with him and I’ve watched him, and he has really become a very popular guy, and I think he’s going to be very hard to beat in a lot of ways.

Now, I have to tell you that a year and a half ago, nobody wanted to run against George Bush. It took a man from Arkansas who was the only one, virtually one of the few people that wanted to run, because George Bush was unbeatable. There was no way you could beat this guy, and he turned out to, you know, he just ran out of gas.

CHARLIE ROSE: It looked like David Dinkins couldn’t possibly win reelection a year ago, and then you had Los Angeles and a lot of other things, and now he’s in a much better position than Paul C.

DONALD TRUMP: He’s done a great comeback.

CHARLIE ROSE: You support him over Giuliani?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I’m not announcing who I’m supporting, and I don’t think it’s even relevant. I just think that Dinkins has really done a great job in terms of coming back, and I also think he’s a great human being. I think he’s a very smart—

CHARLIE ROSE: Did he help you on the planning commission?

DONALD TRUMP: He helped me, but he was tough. He was strong. He was very community-oriented. He was very much for the people in that sense, but when he gave me his word that he would now support the job, he really lived up to that word.

Ross Perot and the Billionaire Question

CHARLIE ROSE: There was also a guy on the political scene this year named Ross Perot, a billionaire. Were you once a billionaire?

DONALD TRUMP: I was, I don’t know, I was projected as being one.

CHARLIE ROSE: I know you were, but you never can tell about those numbers. You were worth a couple, because I saw that at least $900 million, but did you actually have a net worth of $2 billion?

DONALD TRUMP: I listed me up to the highest of two.

CHARLIE ROSE: What did you have yourself up to?

DONALD TRUMP: I don’t know, I had myself up to maybe what I have right now. I don’t know, nobody knows what I’m worth. What’s the Taj Mahal worth? What’s the West Side? I don’t know. I have no idea what I’m worth.

The Plaza Hotel and Adversity

CHARLIE ROSE: What was it you used to say about the Plaza? You said this is a trophy, therefore it’s a different place if it’s a trophy. If it’s the best and unique, then people will pay a premium for the best and unique.

DONALD TRUMP: But people don’t buy trophies so much anymore.

CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah, that’s true. In 1988, trophies were great. In 1990, you don’t have to pay for them. Well, did you pay too much for that trophy?

DONALD TRUMP: Probably. No, I’ll tell you what, when I bought the Plaza, I was offered a huge profit a year after, and brilliantly, I decided not to take that profit, okay?

CHARLIE ROSE: Who sold it to you? Was it— The Basses on that?

DONALD TRUMP: It was a consortium of people. The Basses weren’t involved? And I have to tell you truthfully, I’m very happy with my purchase of the Plaza Hotel. I think it’s working out fantastically. I think it’s going to work out. You know, adversity is a very funny thing. When you have adversity, it’s not— it’s like in golf, it’s like in sports. Everybody— it’s a question of how many bad shots do you hit? Not so many good shots, but how many bad shots?

CHARLIE ROSE: In other words, minimize your bad shots.

DONALD TRUMP: You really have to. It’s not a question of getting— because everybody’s going to get in trouble. It’s a question of how do you get out of trouble. I think the Plaza Hotel is going to turn out to be a great deal for me. I mean, it’s already turning out to be a great deal for me.

CHARLIE ROSE: I think it’s going to be great. That sporting metaphor may be correct, because in golf, if you were playing and you got to go over the water to reach the green, sometimes you don’t make it over the water.

DONALD TRUMP: Sometimes you don’t.

CHARLIE ROSE: And then it can put you into bogey land.

DONALD TRUMP: Sure. But hey, but that’s not where I am, although I could have been.

CHARLIE ROSE: You’re not in bogey land now? Well, but are you back to par? You’re not even back par though. You’re at least bogey.

DONALD TRUMP: I think, no, I think, again, I tell you this and I make this prediction. I think in 6 months I’ll be stronger than I was 3 or 4 years ago, whatever my—

CHARLIE ROSE: That’s a birdie.

DONALD TRUMP: I believe what I did is I restructured things in the early ’90s in the bad times, and now it’s turning out to be very good. I believe that I’ll be stronger than I was 2 years ago, but who knows? I mean, let’s see what happens. Let’s see what happens with the economy. Let’s see what happens with the world.

Ross Perot’s Presidential Run

CHARLIE ROSE: Ross Perot had $3 billion, was willing to spend it, and got something, I haven’t seen the last tally, maybe 17, 18%, 19% of the vote. There was a time in which you wanted to tease America that you might want to run for president.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, people said that. I never did, but people said that.

CHARLIE ROSE: You didn’t go to New Hampshire to test the water? You know what, Roger Stone say, you know, this is an interesting idea, let’s go up and see what we can do.

DONALD TRUMP: I really went to New Hampshire because they wanted me to go to New Hampshire and they wanted me.

CHARLIE ROSE: But you knew that your appearance there would generate the talk. Certainly did generate talk. But you knew that your appearance would generate talk.

DONALD TRUMP: And Charlie, I didn’t do it for that reason. And I had no idea how much talk would be generated. And I had no intention of running for president. And I wouldn’t have an intention of running for president.

I will say this, Ross Perot, he made some monumental mistakes. Had he not dropped out of the election, had he not make the gaffes about, you know, the watchdogs and the guard dogs and everybody coming at the house. And, you know, if he didn’t have 3 or 4 bad days, and they were real bad days, he could have conceivably won this crazy election.

CHARLIE ROSE: You’ll get some political people who, smarter than you and I both about politics, will say the same thing.

DONALD TRUMP: Oh, I believe it.

CHARLIE ROSE: That he could have made it a very competitive race. He was up 42 points at one point. But at the same time, whatever it is that made him generate $2 billion, which enabled him to do as well as he did, in part, in part, he was very effective in the debates and that had nothing to do with how much money he had. At the same time, maybe, you know, you have to take the good with the bad, and part of the personality makeup that happened to make him $2 billion also made him the way he is about sort of the paranoia about—

DONALD TRUMP: Well, the paranoia may be creating some of the money, but it’s not necessarily good for the drive that creates both. See, one of the problems with politics and politicians is that you really can’t have done very much wrong, and that means you can’t have done very much. Because if you’re doing a lot— hey, I do a lot of things and most of them turn out good, but some of them have to turn out bad. And it’s, you know, they’ll hit you with a little bad and it makes it a little bit more difficult.

On Enemies and Influences

CHARLIE ROSE: Franklin Roosevelt, I think, once said— Arthur Schlesinger was here the other night, and I’m not sure he said this, but I think that FDR once said, “I’m proud of all my enemies. I’ve earned them.” What enemies are you proud of?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I’m proud of having a guy like Ed Koch as an enemy because I think he’s a major loser. He did a lousy job as mayor. He’s a promoter. He’s very much of a promoter. He did not do a good job as a mayor. He got very upset because after 8 years of trying to build the Wollman Skating Rink, I was able to do it in 4 months for about 1/10 the money that they spent.

And instead of thanking me, he took great umbrage to the fact that I was able to do for this, and I just wanted to have my kids go ice skating in Central Park. I got tired of watching these people sitting on their— I’m not allowed to say asses on this program, so of course I won’t say it. But I got tired of watching these people just sitting down and not working and not doing it right and having no planning and no leadership. So instead of thanking me and saying, “Donald, that was a great job,” he went around saying, “Well, I think we could have done it if we this, if we that.” He was not—

CHARLIE ROSE: So Ed Koch, who else?

DONALD TRUMP: I think it was just him. What other enemy are you proud of? I’m not proud of enemies. I’d like to have, you know, I’m the kind of guy that has great friends and great enemies and somehow, but I’m not proud of them.

Family and Personal Influences

CHARLIE ROSE: Is your father still the seminal influence in your life?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I have a great father. I have a wonderful father. He’s somebody I love very much. I wouldn’t say he is, I’d say my mother and father maybe is a good answer.

CHARLIE ROSE: Together or?

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, together because I have just—

CHARLIE ROSE: In what way did they influence you differently?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, they’re very different people. My father’s a very business-oriented guy, but a very good man. A man. I mean, if somebody came up to my father on the street and said, “I need $100, I need $200,” my father is the softest touch when it comes to people that really are in trouble. He’s really a very great humanitarian in that sense. But he’s a strong man. He’s a— people would think of him as being cold, but he’s not cold at all. My mother is openly warm. I mean, she’s just a wonderful woman.

CHARLIE ROSE: Except when it comes to Mike Tyson.

DONALD TRUMP: Except when it came to Mike Tyson. It took 40 years and finally she came out and she said something. But she’s a fabulous—

CHARLIE ROSE: She made you like yourself when you were growing up. I mean, by her love reinforced your sense of self.

DONALD TRUMP: She really did. I mean, she’s some woman.

On Trust and Memory

CHARLIE ROSE: Greenberg again, in this New York Magazine article said about you, he said, “If Donald gives you his word, it’s good as gold. However,” he said, “He said that sometimes I have a bad memory.”

DONALD TRUMP: That leaves you wide open to, you know, it leaves you wide open to the fact that— and I have a photographic memory, see, problem.

CHARLIE ROSE: Well, exactly. I mean, it raises this question, can you trust what Donald really says? ‘Cause his memory may be short.

DONALD TRUMP: Yeah, now I think he meant that jokingly. He’s a great friend and he’s a great gentleman. And I think he meant that joke, I think, but perhaps he’s had some bad experiences.

What Brings the Greatest Satisfaction

CHARLIE ROSE: I really don’t know. What brings you the greatest satisfaction now? Is it conquering adversity or is it something else?

DONALD TRUMP: Well, I used to think just continued success, but I got bored by it. Yeah, enough and enough is not enough. Enough, enough. And then I really think that right now I’m just really proud with the way I’ve handled things. I really think that I’ve handled things well from a business standpoint.

CHARLIE ROSE: And somebody who steps forward and says, you know, this is just Donald’s hype. He’s a giant promoter. He hasn’t come back. I mean, times have turned a little bit around. You know, sold off some assets, but it’s not the great comeback that he believes it is.

DONALD TRUMP: Well, all they have to do, I mean, all they have to do is look at the numbers. I mean, you look at the numbers in the casino journals and you look at the numbers. And, you know, it’s been a tremendous comeback. And I’m not saying I’m as far back as I will be in 6 months. I mean, I’m really— I’m back, and I’m not in any trouble, and I’m doing well, and I’m making money.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do you think—

DONALD TRUMP: Money is a scorecard for me. You know, money is not as important as people would think it would be to a guy like me, but it is a scorecard. And, you know, I’ve really—

CHARLIE ROSE: So what is the most important thing to a guy like you?

DONALD TRUMP: I think the way I’ve survived, the quality in which I’ve lived under the surveillance, the image I’ve portrayed during the survival period. I mean, people haven’t seen me go into a corner and put my thumb in my mouth and say, “I give up, I give up.” I mean, this kid doesn’t give up.

And some people did give up, I have to tell you, Charlie. And, you know, they’re not— you’re not going to be doing interviews with them. But some people did give up. Many people gave up. And many tough, smart killers gave up. They just gave up. They said, “I can’t do it anymore.” So I think the way in which I survived was very important. To me.

Closing Remarks

CHARLIE ROSE: Art of the Comeback, soon to be out. And what, you’re going to be out next beginning of 2019? 3 or 4 months. 3 or 4 months? Yeah. You’re writing this alone?

DONALD TRUMP: I’m doing this one alone because I really want to get my flavor. I’ve had 2 wonderful writers. My other books were both number 1 bestsellers. I’m doing this alone. I want to get my own flavor. It’s really become somewhat of a passion because I think people are going to learn a lot from it. It’s good to have you. Have a good time.

CHARLIE ROSE: Thank you very much. Thank you. Donald Trump is back. Thank you for joining us tonight. Monday we’ll talk with World Series hero Dave Winfield. Trump would like to hear that. Also, a lot of other people will be here. We’re taping next week an hour with Charlie Kuralt, one of my friends from North Carolina. A lot more interesting things coming up. See you Monday.

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