Call Her Daddy: w/ Jackson White on Toxicity and Tell Me Lies (Transcript)

I’ll make him be a character.” And then I could…

ALEX COOPER: Then you can play with it more and detach.

The Series Finale: How It All Ended

ALEX COOPER: I’m thinking about it being Wednesday. Everyone just found out that this was the series finale, not the season finale. None of us had any idea that this was the end of Tell Me Lies. How are you feeling, and how did you find out?

JACKSON WHITE: Really recently. A few days ago, actually.

ALEX COOPER: Who told you?

JACKSON WHITE: Grace actually told me. We were both in the airport — in separate parts of the airport. Different terminals.

ALEX COOPER: So far away.

JACKSON WHITE: Two terminals away. It’s a new love story. And I felt really, really sad initially, even though I knew creatively that’s what was supposed to happen. That was always the intention. It’s a very perfect… we’ll get into that.

ALEX COOPER: We’re going to get into it. I do think it was a perfect ending.

JACKSON WHITE: I think it’s hilarious. But it was very sad. Because it’s like, you made a family — the cast was like a family. And then you also lost a job, in a way. It also feels a little bit like that. And it’s been four years putting yourself into something. So it was a mixed bag.

ALEX COOPER: Did you guys have a conversation with your castmates? Are you going to have a going away party?

JACKSON WHITE: I hope so, because we’re so close and everyone is emotional about it. But you just can’t plan for these things.

Breaking Down the Finale

ALEX COOPER: Okay, let’s talk about the finale.

JACKSON WHITE: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: I sat down, I had snacks, I was locked in. I was like, “How are they going to wrap this thing up?” There are so many questions — what’s going to happen with Pippa and Bri and Wrigley and you, and why are you marrying Lydia? There’s so many questions. And then she did manage to wrap the entire thing up. How did you feel about it when you were filming it, and then when you got to watch it?

JACKSON WHITE: I laughed hysterically when I read it. We all did. Because it was like, “Oh, he wins.” That’s so funny. That’s so cosmically funny. I think it’s a big tragic comedy at the end.

ALEX COOPER: It’s so f*ing crazy.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. I hope everyone laughs.

ALEX COOPER: No, no, you don’t understand. Do you look online when people are talking about the series at all? Because everyone said the only justifiable ending was that Stephen needs to die. He needs to die. And then you kind of won.

JACKSON WHITE: That’s so good. That’s so funny. Not even strictly like, “Oh, my character” — like, that’s just hilarious.

ALEX COOPER: It’s crazy.

JACKSON WHITE: You have the guy who’s the object of the torment, the aggressor — and then it’s very… it’s not realistic because it’s television, but it’s a new thing. I’ve never seen that done before.

ALEX COOPER: Well, it’s also really realistic of how this sometimes goes.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, probably not to that extent.

ALEX COOPER: No, hopefully not.

JACKSON WHITE: Hopefully not. But that’s kind of how it goes. A lot of bad people win.

The Wedding Scene

ALEX COOPER: How did you feel filming the wedding scene? That whole blow-up, and then you taking the mic at 3am and being like, “Yeah, one more thing, ladies and gentlemen.”

JACKSON WHITE: It was cool. Well, it was 3am — actually more like 4am. We were doing that all night. And I had the flu. I had a 103-degree fever. I was sweating, sore throat. They juiced me up, I went out there, and just blacked out. It’s crazy that that happened on that day.

ALEX COOPER: Who do you think made out the best in the show by the end?

JACKSON WHITE: You want to say it together? One, two, three. Steven. Like, mother…

ALEX COOPER: I know, because I was like, “Okay, technically Diana.” You’re like, “Diana.”

JACKSON WHITE: Oh yeah, they…

ALEX COOPER: She got away. But on the Richter scale of who did the worst and then got out the best — like, yeah, he got rejected from Yale and they got rid of him. But you got to do another one on Lucy at the very end. That was a mind-bending gas station moment. I was literally like, “Go f* yourself.”

JACKSON WHITE: I know, I know. It’s twisted.

ALEX COOPER: And then you’re the one holding the mic, just bang, bang, bang, bang to every single person.

JACKSON WHITE: He just ices everyone in the room. I had fun.

ALEX COOPER: I don’t know how I feel about it.

JACKSON WHITE: Are you like… what is the response to something like that?

ALEX COOPER: I think, weirdly, as I’ve had time to process it, at first I couldn’t decide if I wanted it to end where you and Lucy just left in the car together.

JACKSON WHITE: You thought that. Did you think that’s where it was going to end?

Getting Into Character: Stephen’s Advice

ALEX COOPER: I thought it was going to end there because I was like, oh, and he’s going to f her over again. But then Megan made the decision. No, let me have you watch one more time. Him f her over again.

JACKSON WHITE: That’s the perfect ending to this show.

ALEX COOPER: Because why am I so f*ed up that I low key wanted you guys to end up together?

JACKSON WHITE: Right, right. That’s the whole thing.

ALEX COOPER: You’re disgusting. You murdered someone.

JACKSON WHITE: I know. And that’s the whole joke. And then it’s a perfect ending. Like, this will never end.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, can you indulge me for a second?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: So I think, to your credit, you brought to life a character that millions of people are frustrated by. They hate. They’ve found some moments where they’ve loved you or liked you, and then they go back to hating you and being disgusted. And now the character — we’re done with. But I thought today we could really finish it off strong and you can get into character one last time.

JACKSON WHITE: Get into character. Oh, shit.

ALEX COOPER: Get your posture ready.

JACKSON WHITE: Darn it. Yeah, right. Just my shitty posture. All right.

ALEX COOPER: You’re going to get into character as Stephen. I’m going to give you scenarios from my audience and I want you to give advice as if you are Stephen. Stephen speaking. So, Stephen, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Okay. Oh, God, look at him getting into character.

JACKSON WHITE: Okay. I’m going to come back and I’m going to answer your questions now. Okay. I’m Stephen now. I’ll answer everyone. Hey, how you doing?

ALEX COOPER: Hi. Can you adjust the microphone to be closer to you?

JACKSON WHITE: I think it’s fine where it is. That will make you more comfortable.

ALEX COOPER: That’ll make me really comfortable. Thanks. This is my show.

JACKSON WHITE: Sure.

Stephen’s Toxic Advice

ALEX COOPER: Okay, Stephen. Someone wrote in and said, “I went through my boyfriend’s phone last night and saw he has an active dating profile. Should I tell him I know? What do I do?” Steven?

JACKSON WHITE: No. Hold that in. Hold that in for a long time. Use it when you have to. You weaponize it. Wait until you’re in a situation where he is in front of his parents and reveal it. Put it on a flash drive. Wait until you’re making love, and at the moment of climax, reveal that you know about his dating profile.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, Steven.

JACKSON WHITE: Sorry, too far.

ALEX COOPER: This is great. No, this is great. Okay, next one. This is kind of really relatable to Steven.

JACKSON WHITE: Okay.

ALEX COOPER: “My boyfriend and I keep getting into massive arguments, but he never takes accountability for his actions. How can we move forward if he will never own up to the things that he’s done?”

JACKSON WHITE: Find the people around him he holds dear. Learn his secrets.

ALEX COOPER: It’s constantly the same thing.

JACKSON WHITE: Hold information, put it on your computer, and then use it at a horrible moment.

ALEX COOPER: Why?

JACKSON WHITE: That’s what he does.

ALEX COOPER: Why do you think that he gave Lucy back the tape?

JACKSON WHITE: Maybe he was exhausted. He was like, “I don’t want to do this anymore.”

ALEX COOPER: He’s like, “I’m going to Yale.”

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, he’s bored.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, that’s probably what it was. He was bored.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, he’s bored.

ALEX COOPER: He was like, “You look pathetic. I’ve tortured you enough.”

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, he’s done.

ALEX COOPER: “Now I need to find another thing to torture you over.”

JACKSON WHITE: It was over, okay? We’re moving on.

Talking About Grace

ALEX COOPER: Let’s talk about Grace.

JACKSON WHITE: Okay, let’s talk about —

ALEX COOPER: Let’s talk about my girl.

JACKSON WHITE: That’s easy for me.

ALEX COOPER: Okay?

JACKSON WHITE: I can relax.

ALEX COOPER: Well, when Grace came on here, she talked to me about how she kind of has this thing for crazy pajamas. And after she came on, she sent me the video of her in the said crazy pajamas.

JACKSON WHITE: Which video? Which one did you get?

ALEX COOPER: You took the video and it’s her. She kind of looks like she’s in — it’s like a —

JACKSON WHITE: Is it the one with the black feathers?

ALEX COOPER: Oh, no, not that one. I didn’t get that one. It was more of like a jester striped situation.

JACKSON WHITE: Striped situation.

ALEX COOPER: And I was wondering, did you wear anything lucky last night to bed to prepare for this?

JACKSON WHITE: Did I wear anything lucky last night to bed? Such a great question. I didn’t wear anything lucky.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: I wore my normal bed wear.

ALEX COOPER: Okay. What do you wear?

JACKSON WHITE: Underwear and like a tank top when I sleep. Just a little — not the full T-shirt thing. Or I’ll rip it off and just go underwear.

ALEX COOPER: I just want to clarify — I hope I wasn’t asking you anything weird. I know, but unless your girlfriend told me. Because I’m picturing Grace wearing her full jester outfit and then you in normal —

JACKSON WHITE: She’s in a — well, she wears the cap with the bell. Like Scrooge.

ALEX COOPER: Yep. She looks like Scrooge with the elf feet.

JACKSON WHITE: Yep. With the feet. And she’s grumpy. And she’s sitting there with it, and I’m in nothing. And that’s how we sleep. And it works.

ALEX COOPER: I love that.

JACKSON WHITE: It’s great.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, so you wore a normal outfit to bed last night. I love that.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

How Jackson and Grace Fell in Love

ALEX COOPER: These are the hard-hitting facts that we needed to know on Call Her Daddy. When I got to interview her a few months ago, I loved her. She’s lovely. She told me about how you guys met and how you fell in love, but she said that you were giving off very, very serious actor energy on the initial video call where you guys met. How do you remember that going?

JACKSON WHITE: Well, when you’re nervous, you go into a mode. So when you’re on a big — she had the job, I didn’t have the job. So I was in a mode. I was in like a “hello, nice to meet you” mode. It wasn’t serious, but it was like —

ALEX COOPER: Trying to get the job.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. And then I remember what happened — she always trips up on this. She had the job, I didn’t have the job. This is a very interesting conversation on power. And she said, “Do you need anything from me?” Which is a very actor-y question — not to throw that back on her — but that’s very like, “Do you need anything from me, performance-wise?” And then I think I said, “No, you’re doing great.” Which, if you don’t know me, I can sound very condescending sometimes, but I genuinely mean it. I can sound very like, “Good job.”

ALEX COOPER: Right? You’re like — horrible job — you’re like, “No, really good job.”

JACKSON WHITE: You know what I mean? When someone’s like, “Hey, you’re doing great.”

ALEX COOPER: Right.

JACKSON WHITE: And so I think I probably sounded like a dick, but I really meant it. She was like, “Can I do anything?” And I’m like, “No, you’re great.”

ALEX COOPER: Okay. So then you left that. Did you feel any vibes?

JACKSON WHITE: Romantic vibes? No, we were pretty walled up. She was — from the very initial time, we were both like in relationships, we were like, okay. It was not like that. It wasn’t until everyone was open and we might do this job together — that’s when we started, you know.

ALEX COOPER: What do you remember about the first time you started to have like, “Oh my God, wait, could I have romantic feelings for this person?”

JACKSON WHITE: When she texted me.

ALEX COOPER: What did she text you?

JACKSON WHITE: Like, “Hey, what’s up?” I was in Canada for some reason. And she said — it was like, you know, “Hey, what are you doing?” I was like, “I’m doing this for the holiday.” She was like, “Oh.” I was like, “I might come to New York.” And she was like, something cool and sexy, where she was like, “You should,” with a — “You should do it,” or something like that.

ALEX COOPER: And you guys were already filming Tell Me Lies?

JACKSON WHITE: No, no, no. I still hadn’t had the job. It took me eight months to get this job. I had to convince so many people to let me do this job. It was very funny because you’re so —

ALEX COOPER: Good at the role.

JACKSON WHITE: Well, thanks. No, they just had to comb the earth, I guess, to find this. It’s a very complicated guy. And there were a lot of dudes who did it, you know. Whatever.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, yeah.

JACKSON WHITE: And then she had the job, I didn’t have the job. And then I went to New York and we kind of talked about all the reasons why we shouldn’t do it because I didn’t have the job yet. And then —

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, okay. I remember, though, you said that you were dying to make the first move but didn’t have the courage to go through with it. What was going on? What do you remember feeling in that moment?

JACKSON WHITE: Just, like, ripping out of your chest kind of thing. You know, that thing.

ALEX COOPER: And when she finally went in for the kiss —

JACKSON WHITE: Maybe that’s a power thing. Like, I didn’t want to — sorry to interrupt.

ALEX COOPER: No, this is good.

JACKSON WHITE: I didn’t want to make a move because — that’s not really it. But I can totally be a people pleaser. I can totally think I’m overstepping. Maybe I wanted to not step on anyone’s toes.

ALEX COOPER: What do you mean?

JACKSON WHITE: Well, like, what if I didn’t have the role and then I kissed her and then she was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.”

ALEX COOPER: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

JACKSON WHITE: “Now you’re definitely not getting the role.” Like, what if I overstepped?

ALEX COOPER: So she kind of had to make the first move.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, I was like — and these thoughts aren’t going through my head, but I’m definitely —

ALEX COOPER: Wait, we’re reflecting.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: That’s interesting.

JACKSON WHITE: You’re probably like, subconsciously, I probably tread lightly. You like her, but don’t —

ALEX COOPER: Right. Because it was a work dynamic also.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And that’s how it first started. So it’s like you kind of have to —

JACKSON WHITE: She was my boss.

ALEX COOPER: She was your boss.

JACKSON WHITE: She was my daddy.

ALEX COOPER: Is she still your daddy?

JACKSON WHITE: She’s my daddy. Grace is my daddy.

ALEX COOPER: I love that for Grace so much. Honestly, you’re like, “I can’t believe I just said that.”

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, that’s going to — I know where that’s going to be on your thing.

ALEX COOPER: That’s going to be the whole promo.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: “Grace is my daddy.”

JACKSON WHITE: I know.

ALEX COOPER: It’s perfect.

JACKSON WHITE: I know what you want.

Grace, Tattoos, and the Courtship Phase

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, just keep giving it. You’re doing great. Okay. Is it true that you let Grace give you multiple tattoos early on in the relationship?

JACKSON WHITE: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: How? Like, what tattoos and how many?

JACKSON WHITE: 1, 2, 3, 4.

ALEX COOPER: Now walk me through that thought process of allowing someone really early on in dating to fully tattoo your body. Were you nervous? Like, what if it ends?

JACKSON WHITE: Have you ever done that?

ALEX COOPER: Nope.

JACKSON WHITE: Okay. You let someone f*ing put a needle in your — no. I don’t think about that. I’m very impulsive, but that was also hilarious. I liked it. You’re on the adrenaline of the courtship phase, plus the pain, and I was down. That was cool.

ALEX COOPER: How do you think your relationship has evolved over the course of the show?

JACKSON WHITE: It’s just gotten more adult. You don’t think the ceiling’s going to cave in, you know what I mean? You start with a lot of fear in any relationship, and then you get comfortable. I think we’ve just grown up.

Fear, Childhood, and Relationship Patterns

ALEX COOPER: When you say you start with a lot of fear in the beginning —

JACKSON WHITE: In relationships. Or maybe I do.

ALEX COOPER: What do you mean by that?

JACKSON WHITE: I think normal people don’t as much. I’m in a lot of fear.

ALEX COOPER: Why?

JACKSON WHITE: Because I just grew up in fear. I grew up in a lot of inconsistency, so I didn’t know what was going on a lot of the time. I come at situations from a fearful place sometimes. I’m getting better — it gets better and better over the last 10 years. But I absolutely go into things on the defense, thinking that it’s not going to work out. That’s how I approach most things.

ALEX COOPER: That kind of relates to something you said recently in an interview — that it’s higher stakes to stay together for you than to break up.

JACKSON WHITE: It’s definitely more work. Higher stakes to be with somebody.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah.

JACKSON WHITE: It’s way less pressure to — not more painful, but you have to want to be with somebody very, very hard, right?

ALEX COOPER: Yes. Would you say, when you look back at your past, were you more comfortable and relaxed being single because you’re on your own and just dependent on yourself? Or do you like being dependent in a relationship?

JACKSON WHITE: I think “dependence” is the wrong word. It’s important to not be fully dependent. You can be dependent for certain things — like, I like to be dependent for things that she does better than I do. She’s better at so many things, and it’s nice to have a partner for that.

But the dependent part gets tricky when you stop seeing friends, you know what I mean? That’s when you have to start — and that’s a discipline. That’s an effort, I find. It’s a discipline for me to round out my life like it’s a pie. Everything has to be a piece of it, and I have to consciously go to those other pieces so that you don’t put too much pressure on a relationship.

ALEX COOPER: Let’s go back, because you just mentioned going into a relationship starting in fear and then getting comfortable. I don’t think that’s a completely abnormal statement. I think maybe fear is a pretty strong word — some people are more like, “Oh, you don’t know what’s going to happen, it’s exciting but a little up in the air.” And then eventually you get comfortable. But you’re like, “It’s f*ing terrifying.”

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Which obviously relates to your childhood growing up. Your parents got divorced when you were really young.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Your dad remarried three times. Four times?

JACKSON WHITE: Three. Three, I think. Three.

ALEX COOPER: How do you think watching your parents’ different relationships ultimately impacted your perception of love and commitment?

JACKSON WHITE: The child of divorce conversation. Are you —

ALEX COOPER: I’m not, but I have interviewed a lot of people that are. And I also feel like everyone’s got their —

JACKSON WHITE: It’s all weird.

ALEX COOPER: It’s all weird. It’s so weird.

JACKSON WHITE: It’s all weird. And now it’s on us to say, “Okay, cool. I unpacked it. I figured it out. Goodbye. It’s not me.” That is the thing now.

ALEX COOPER: Yes.

JACKSON WHITE: Because we therapy now. It’s like, figure yourself out and then let it go.

ALEX COOPER: Before you figured yourself out, did you have any patterns that you can now look back on and be like, “Oh, that’s just because of what I was raised seeing, that I thought was normal”?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. I think everyone is inherently a little narcissistic when you’re coming up — that’s just what it is. When you’re a teenager, you’re like, “Oh my God.” And then you go to college. That’s what these characters all are — they’re just self-involved.

And then you start not making yourself the victim because you learn that there are consequences, that no one’s coming to the rescue, and that you can’t just make it about yourself. You can’t weaponize your past and use that in your relationships with your friends, because people won’t stay anymore. They don’t want to hang out with you if you’re doing that.

ALEX COOPER: But it is so f*ed up because it takes repeatedly doing something — whether it’s a pattern, whether it’s jealousy, or abandonment wounds, or being pulled back and not being emotionally available — whatever it is that you bring. And then slowly you get the note enough from partners that you’ve been with, and you’re like, “Okay, I actually have to look at myself, and I need to address this.”

JACKSON WHITE: Or you don’t take the note and you’re out here still just ripping.

ALEX COOPER: What do you think one of your notes has been?

JACKSON WHITE: It’s a great question. I mean — yeah. I got abandonment. I got stuff like — it’s fear. It’s all fear. I’ve been afraid of men a lot of the time. I’ve been afraid of male relationships, and I’ve had to work on that because I had a more complicated relationship with men than I did with women. I was raised with my mom and my sister, so I’ve had to work on that in relationships.

And what I was explaining — you’re supposed to divide your time. I can totally not do that and put too much pressure on a relationship. That’s the big note.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. I mean, I think that’s really relatable, too, especially if you have that instability growing up. And then you get to a point where you’re like, “Oh my God, I found love. I found my person. I found this person that loves me, and I love them.”

JACKSON WHITE: And —

ALEX COOPER: And then of course you don’t want that to end, because you’re seeing real love and you have it right there, and it’s accessible.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: You’re like, “I don’t want to lose this.” And then sometimes you hang on to something because, even though subconsciously you know it’s not maybe perfect, it’s also someone that loves you.

JACKSON WHITE: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: And so you’re like, “Should I just stay because it’s something stable, or should I go because I know it’s not right?” And a lot of times with abandonment wounds, you’re like, “I’m just going to stay” — or you leave first so that they don’t abandon you.

JACKSON WHITE: You get the jump on it. That’s definitely real, too.

Stepmoms, Stepdads, and Growing Up

ALEX COOPER: How did you feel growing up about your stepmoms? Because that’s a lot.

JACKSON WHITE: The stepmom conversation is so funny. I didn’t know him that well. My dad lived in Franklin, Tennessee.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: My mom lived here, and I would spend the summers and whatnot with him — weeks at whatever breaks. I’d go out there because I loved it out there, and I would hang out with these new mamas, and they were cool. Shout out to Deborah. I didn’t know her that well, but I was like, “Deborah, what’s up, Debbie?”

But I think you have a gut reaction to somebody who’s replacing your parent. I think I gave her a hard time — I was a child. Deborah grabbed my arm too hard once, but I think she was probably a wonderful person.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah.

JACKSON WHITE: And yet I was very adverse to change. Same with my stepdad — my mom remarried, and we’ve always had a two rams locking horns dynamic, just because it goes against your biology. But they’re also filling a very difficult role. I could not imagine marrying somebody with kids and just being like, “These kids come from a complicated place, but I’m going to take care of them.” That’s a lot.

ALEX COOPER: Right. When you get older, you can have empathy for both dynamics, because you’re getting closer to the point where you can picture potentially being in more of a fatherly role. When you were younger, as a kid, you’re like, “Oh my God, this person’s going to replace my dad or replace my mom.” And now you’re like, “Whoa, that was a lot to walk into.” Doesn’t mean they were perfect.

JACKSON WHITE: I just had this conversation with my stepdad where I was like, “I just crystallized recently — oh, dude, that must be so hard. I couldn’t imagine.”

ALEX COOPER: You had mentioned kind of craving the stability of a family unit your entire life when things feel shaky.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Where do you find — or where did you find — that safety in the —

Family, Fear, and Finding Himself

JACKSON WHITE: …the wrong places and then in the right places, like you copy your parents. My dad was a very complicated, amazing person. He was an incredible drummer, and music was my whole life. My mom is an incredible singer, and we grew up playing so much music. I learned all about music, and I’ve been playing drums since I was a baby — it’s what I love to do.

I took all those things from him. I also took his work ethic. He was a tour manager, he was a drummer. He ran shit. He was a very disciplined guy, and I have so much of that, and I apply that to whatever I can.

But then the flip side of that was, he was on these big tours, and he’d get off these tours and the lights would be off and be quiet for months on end. He came from an extremely hostile upbringing and he didn’t have any tools to cope with it, not like we do in our time. And so, yeah, there was a lot of drinking, and all that’s under that umbrella. I drank a lot with him — just a lot of drinking and smoking with dad. So I totally grew up with a skewed perspective on all that. And if I wasn’t careful, I would let that run my life. Especially when you start doing that when—

ALEX COOPER: —you’re young, and when you have your parent there with you when you’re kind of doing that, and it’s almost like a bonding thing.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. Oh yeah.

ALEX COOPER: You’re young and he’s back off the road and you’re like, “Oh my God, let’s sit and let’s drink and let’s talk.”

JACKSON WHITE: That was it.

ALEX COOPER: And that’s kind of—

JACKSON WHITE: —but you’re like a 12-year-old kid.

ALEX COOPER: Right?

JACKSON WHITE: So that’s where it gets tricky.

ALEX COOPER: And did you ever feel like — because it seems like you weren’t always with him, it was like you would visit and then you would leave — did you feel like you really got to know him enough? Or do you wish that you could have spent more time with him?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, totally. I wish I spent more time with him. This is what it is though — we didn’t talk for long, long periods of time, just because, whatever, life. But I got to be with him for the important times.

You have this idea of your parent — maybe it’s like girls and their mothers or boys and their fathers — but they’re like superheroes. And then you get to the age where you’re like, “Oh, if that’s Superman, we’re…” You know what I mean? Like, “Oh no.” And that switch happened in the midst of all that chaos, and it made us drift apart. And then we came together when we were both adults.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. Your dad passed away a little bit ago. I’m so sorry.

JACKSON WHITE: No, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: How do you think your perspective has kind of changed on your parents’ dynamic and what they were able to provide for you together, even though they were separated, as time has evolved? Like, do you hold resentment? Do you understand what they did?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, I do. Not anymore. I had resentment for a long time, and going back to that — that’s what you weaponize. You weaponize resentment. You’re like, “Oh, well, this person messed me up, so I’m going to…” Hurt people hurt people. But not anymore. It’s all love. It’s all good now. I took a lot from my mom and a lot from my dad.

Working with Family on Tell Me Lies

ALEX COOPER: Let’s talk about your mom, because obviously you got to work with her on Tell Me Lies, which I remember — I was a fan of hers from Sons of Anarchy. I f*ing loved that show.

JACKSON WHITE: Great show.

ALEX COOPER: How old were you when that was being made?

JACKSON WHITE: Like fifth grade, sixth grade. I was young. Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And your stepdad and your mom were both—

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: —working on that show. Interesting.

JACKSON WHITE: So maybe I saw that happen. Parents working together was a thing, you know.

ALEX COOPER: Interesting. Did you ever watch the show?

JACKSON WHITE: I’ve seen parts of it, yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Okay. Was that a good or bad time in your life?

JACKSON WHITE: It was great. That’s an interesting question. No, it was great. I mean, it was cool. That was the big family discussion for many years — that show.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah.

JACKSON WHITE: It’s like if Grace and I had a kid, they would know Tell Me Lies intimately even if they hadn’t seen it. I know everything about that show.

ALEX COOPER: When she decided to come on — because you had the role first—

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: —what was your reaction? Like, did you want it to kind of be your own thing and not have your mom be involved at all?

JACKSON WHITE: There’s a little kid thing where you’re like, “No, it’s mine.”

ALEX COOPER: Right.

JACKSON WHITE: But then I thought, “Oh, yeah, it’s fine. No, it’s great.” I thought it was really full circle. And I thought Megan was kidding when she said they want to ask her. I was like, “Oh, that’d be hilarious.” And then they did, and—

ALEX COOPER: —and then it worked out.

JACKSON WHITE: It worked out okay.

ALEX COOPER: Your mom plays your mom.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Your girlfriend plays your girlfriend on the show.

JACKSON WHITE: How—

ALEX COOPER: And I’m sure you’ve been asked this before, but I need to ask you it myself. How did you navigate not letting those two worlds — your reality and then the show — get blurred together?

JACKSON WHITE: You want to not let it blend, but I think it does. Just because — I didn’t sign on to this, I don’t do this job because I’m all together, you know? I like that you come and do make-believe for your job. You’re probably a little f*ed up. Probably. And so you take on a little bit of everything. And it was hard. It was hard to not let the lines blur.

Coping Mechanisms and Confronting Fear

ALEX COOPER: I do want to go back to something you were talking about earlier in regard to your relationship with your father. Growing up, you mentioned how alcohol was and became a big part of your life with him and your relationship. Do you mind talking a little bit more about how that influenced and impacted you?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. I think we all have coping mechanisms for how difficult all of this is, and it’s different for every person. Mine was thankfully more clear-cut. I know a lot of the things that hold me back, but there are so many things that can hold you back all the time, and it happens so fast. It can be substance, it can be people, behaviors, food — whatever.

ALEX COOPER: Everyone’s got their thing.

JACKSON WHITE: Everyone’s got a thing. And I think focusing on what that is and discovering what that is is what makes you progress as a person — in your career and your relationships. That’s what makes you grow.

ALEX COOPER: When you look back — you talk about fear, and I can imagine when we have fear, we have anxieties, and we can try to do things to avoid that. How did you find yourself leaning into unhealthy coping mechanisms to avoid your pain or your fear?

JACKSON WHITE: Fear is the core. And then anger is like a symptom. Drinking can be a symptom. Behavior is a symptom. But it starts with that — “I’m not enough. I won’t be enough. People are better than me. I’ll be left. I’ll be alone. I’m not good enough to be here or to be with this person.” Those thoughts start everything, and then everything else is just… you start reacting.

ALEX COOPER: How do you think you got to a place where numbing those feelings — you eventually were like, “Wait, that’s actually more unhealthy. By me doing—”

JACKSON WHITE: I just got tired. It’s exhausting to be unconscious. You don’t even know it’s exhausting. And thankfully I had a parent who got her shit together — my mom got her shit together a long time ago. And I got to see that you can get your shit together. So I had a really great example in my mom.

And I want a lot of things. I just want a lot of things in this life — a lot of family things, a lot of career things. And if something’s stopping you from getting those, you know what I mean? It’s that simple. If you’re being stopped from getting those things and you’re seeing signs that you’re not getting them — if you’re missing your audition, if you’re shitty on the phone, if you’re reacting poorly — you just have to focus on it. You have to have that self-knowledge.

And consequences are what start pushing that into action. If you don’t have consequences, sometimes you can just go on and on and on.

ALEX COOPER: That’s what I was going to ask you. Like, when you were going through maybe one of the darker times in your life—

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: —and struggling and going through all these feelings of “Am I good enough? Am I not?” and then leaning into unhealthy patterns because that would kind of numb the pain—

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: —what were examples where you kind of had to face reality? Whether it was people confronting you, maybe you lost relationships.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. You’re subconsciously ruining everything. You just break, right?

ALEX COOPER: Yeah. Well, and it’s hard too, because depending on where you’re at in your life — I feel like for social reasons, it’s so confusing. Even if you’re talking about drinking, it’s so confusing because it’s such a social thing.

JACKSON WHITE: Oh, yeah.

Rapid Fire Questions

ALEX COOPER: For you, once you were able to be like, okay, I am going to try to move forward in life and give myself a healthier lifestyle, what were some of the positives and negatives that you saw? Once you got that clarity of like, “I need to shift my life. I need to change my actions to my own body and to myself.”

JACKSON WHITE: Everything changed. I want to say that there were external things that changed dramatically, but there weren’t. But there were. I mean, if you’re clear, you’re just better prepared for life and you can succeed and all that. But also, it’s just here. You just feel less like you’re in trouble all the time. You just have that ease. And that’s what we all want — that ease. I just want to feel okay.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah.

JACKSON WHITE: You want to see your true self come out? Stop drinking. You’ll get to the real you. Stop drinking, you’ll feel great. And then that deep core stuff comes out and it’s like, “Oh yeah, that was there. I was just covering it up with whatever.”

ALEX COOPER: How are you doing with the fears and the anxieties and all of that?

JACKSON WHITE: I’m doing good. It’s been a good, long educational road and I feel great. My life has changed and I have a lot of love in my life. I genuinely give a s* about how someone else is doing, which I didn’t have when I was younger and running on Doritos and fear. And that’s the best thing to come out of it. Because all I want is to be like a worker among workers. I just want life to be calm and serene.

ALEX COOPER: I think sometimes when people talk about a darkness in their life, the beauty of it is it also brings such a light. It really forces you to go through a lot, but then you’ve been through a lot.

JACKSON WHITE: I had to. Because if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be working. I wouldn’t be around people. I had to. That’s what I’m learning — you can actually just face the fear.

Rapid Fire Round

ALEX COOPER: Okay, before we go, I want to end with a couple of rapid fire questions. What’s the time you absolutely bombed an audition?

JACKSON WHITE: All of them. So many of them. I’ve got like 150 of them.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, other than you, which Tell Me Lies character is the most insufferable?

JACKSON WHITE: Evan.

ALEX COOPER: That sounds like something Steven would say.

JACKSON WHITE: Well, I love — no, no, but I just mean like factually, based on the plot. And also —

ALEX COOPER: Him with Bree’s mom, getting the mom drunk before seeing Bree.

JACKSON WHITE: Right? I think he f*ed up again. I think Evan is actually bad news.

ALEX COOPER: Yeah, he’s bad news.

JACKSON WHITE: Oh wait — insufferable? The teacher, Oliver.

ALEX COOPER: Disgusting. Bad boy. What is the pettiest thing you’ve ever done after a breakup?

JACKSON WHITE: I disintegrated my Instagram.

ALEX COOPER: What does that even mean? You disintegrated?

JACKSON WHITE: Like, I didn’t just delete it — it was like, delete, delete forever, destroy. And I was like, “Yes, delete forever.” Type in password.

ALEX COOPER: Gone forever. Not hers, yours. And you just disappeared.

JACKSON WHITE: I just ghosted because I didn’t want to deal with seeing anything. I didn’t want to deal with it. So I did. Was that destructive?

ALEX COOPER: What’s the pettiest thing?

JACKSON WHITE: Oh, petty. Oh, that’s not really petty. That was more just insane. But I had some good momentum going too. This was a long time ago, and I just — poof — had to start over.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, what is the best gift you’ve ever gotten for Grace?

JACKSON WHITE: I got her a little Cartier last year.

ALEX COOPER: Oh — ring, bracelet, necklace?

JACKSON WHITE: Got a little Cartier ring.

ALEX COOPER: Cute.

JACKSON WHITE: But I didn’t know it was the wedding ring one.

ALEX COOPER: You got her the wedding ring one?

JACKSON WHITE: I didn’t know.

ALEX COOPER: She thought you were proposing.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah, it was so funny. I was like — I didn’t know that this was —

ALEX COOPER: Oh, like the wedding ring.

JACKSON WHITE: I didn’t know.

ALEX COOPER: Oh, Jackson. Did she know?

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: And she’s like, “No.”

JACKSON WHITE: It’s a sick ring, though. You don’t have to wear it as a wedding ring.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: We just have it on other fingers.

ALEX COOPER: Okay, that’s cute.

JACKSON WHITE: Cute.

ALEX COOPER: What do you think your two top love languages are?

JACKSON WHITE: The ones that I need or the ones that I give?

ALEX COOPER: Both. Give me both. I love that you know that as a man. Also, good job.

JACKSON WHITE: Well, I give acts of service. Huge time. Big time. That’s how I show love — “I’ll do this for you, I’ll do this for you.” And then I want to receive words of affirmation. I want you to tell me how great I am. Tell me you like me still.

ALEX COOPER: Do you remember the first big purchase you splurged on with your Tell Me Lies paycheck?

JACKSON WHITE: I bought a car. Yeah, I needed a new car, and I bought a new car.

ALEX COOPER: What kind of car?

JACKSON WHITE: I bought a Dodge Durango with the Hemi. Very loud car.

ALEX COOPER: You’re obnoxious.

JACKSON WHITE: I’m obnoxious.

ALEX COOPER: Wait, so you’re the one driving that? I’m like, “Oh my God, no.”

JACKSON WHITE: But I’m not the guy who’s like —

ALEX COOPER: But can you explain why? Like, what do we need that for?

JACKSON WHITE: Power. No, no. I just love it.

ALEX COOPER: Stupid.

JACKSON WHITE: Men are so stupid. My dad was such a car guy.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: I remember I went to all these dealerships with my dad, and we picked that one.

ALEX COOPER: Cute.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. It’s a great loud car. Still have it. I’m surprised you didn’t hear it pull into your studio.

ALEX COOPER: I’m happy I didn’t, because I would have roasted you at the very top.

JACKSON WHITE: I know, I know.

What’s Next for Jackson White

ALEX COOPER: We’re finally, sadly, done with Tell Me Lies. But where are we going to see you next? Do you have projects that you’re working on, things that you’re going to be doing?

JACKSON WHITE: Yes.

ALEX COOPER: I know you can’t tell me, but you’re going to be acting, obviously. Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Have you filmed other things?

JACKSON WHITE: I did film something else.

ALEX COOPER: Okay.

JACKSON WHITE: I filmed something after the last season.

ALEX COOPER: And was that character so different than Steven? Opposite? How did you feel about that?

JACKSON WHITE: It was awesome.

ALEX COOPER: Electric.

JACKSON WHITE: It was electric. It was everything. Yeah, it was super fun. It was very natural — like, “bring yourself to it,” very truthful and natural type of acting, which was very cool. Tell Me Lies was very precise, and we’re telling this very specific story. It was a very different, artistic thing. And it was great.

ALEX COOPER: I think that’s needed. I saw Grace on a red carpet being like, “I think I need to play some lighter roles,” after Lucy and Amanda Knox. I was like, “Girl, you deserve to get in there.”

JACKSON WHITE: She needs to go do something lighter.

ALEX COOPER: She needs a reprieve.

JACKSON WHITE: Yes, she does. And she’s the funniest person ever.

ALEX COOPER: She’s amazing.

JACKSON WHITE: She’s so funny.

ALEX COOPER: I am so happy I got to know you because, again, I didn’t know what to expect.

JACKSON WHITE: I know.

ALEX COOPER: We’ve seen such a large character be built, and I agree. I can imagine you loved that. Love what I did with that. But I’m excited for people to get to know Jackson.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Which I feel like we really did today.

JACKSON WHITE: I think we got some good little slices.

ALEX COOPER: I think, if anything, there’s something very calming to have watched this traumatizing show and then have you kind of close us out. Everyone’s going to have watched it. They’re going to wake up in the morning on Wednesday, and they’re going to be like, “Oh, my God. I’m about to tune in this little piece of… Oh, my God. He rode off into the sunset.” And then we’re going to hear from you. You’re going to be like, “Hey, guys, I’m Jackson.”

JACKSON WHITE: Like, life was hard, and… yeah.

ALEX COOPER: Like, “I’m here, and I’m just hoping to have a good career.”

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. Yeah, that’s what I hope.

ALEX COOPER: That’s what I hope. I hope that too. And I can feel they’re going to take that.

JACKSON WHITE: Yeah. Good.

ALEX COOPER: Jackson, thank you so much for coming on Call Her Daddy.

JACKSON WHITE: Thank you for having me.

ALEX COOPER: This was really lovely.

JACKSON WHITE: I had a really good time. Thank you.

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