Joe Rogan Podcast #2452: w/ Roger Avary (Transcript)

I think we shall have to tell him now.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, I’ll sign those papers now, Mr. Thatcher.

ROGER AVARY: You people seem to forget that I’m the boy’s father.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It’s going to be done exactly the way I told Mr. Thatcher.

ROGER AVARY: There ain’t nothing wrong with Colorado. I don’t see why we can’t raise our own son just because we come into some money. If I want it, I can go to court. A father has a right to. A boarder that beats his bill and leaves worthless stock behind. That property is just as much my property as anybody’s now that it’s valuable. And if Fred Graves had any idea all this was to be going, going to happen, he’d have made out those certificates in both our names.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: However, they were made out in Mrs. Kane’s name.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

ROGER AVARY: So in order to maintain that background exposure of the little kid in the window and the foreground. What’s… what you’re not knowing is how much light they’re using on the interior part in order to create that balance between the two. With the… with the film stocks back then.

And the other thing is that table gets flown in. They move that table into the shot because it’s in the way of the camera move. And so there’s all sorts of mathematics going on in the creation of this shot. And most people would just, you know, be like, “Oh, just, you know, shoot the kid outside and then cut inside. You know, just do it like that.” But, you know, Welles was… I mean, he was thinking on a complete other level, it’s just we’ve robbed.

JOE ROGAN: We got robbed of so many films, if you really think about it, what he could have made, you know.

Touch of Evil: Welles’ Masterpiece

ROGER AVARY: Yes and no. My favorite film of his is Touch of Evil. And there’s this amazing shot with Charlton Heston where he’s playing a Mexican and he’s got like this pencil thin mustache. This and Chuck Heston as a Mexican is fantastic. And then everybody’s so sweaty in the movie.

And it takes place in Mexico, but it’s shot in Venice in California. And so the whole opening, which is this setting of a bomb in the trunk of a car. And then, yeah, here’s the opening shot. And you can tell that it’s actually downtown Venice.

JOE ROGAN: And this is supposed to be Mexico.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, this is supposed to be like a border town in Mexico. I don’t know if it’s Tijuana or some other border town, but he does this amazing, amazing single shot.

JOE ROGAN: Wow.

ROGER AVARY: And which back then, this is really hard to do. And this is kind of a… I mean, it’s Charlton Heston essentially saying, “I believe in Orson Welles and his vision.” This is… that’s downtown Venice. There’s… the beach is just beyond that.

JOE ROGAN: Ah, wow.

ROGER AVARY: God. What year? Actually, I’m sorry, the beach might be behind us.

JOE ROGAN: What year was this?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. 1958.

JOE ROGAN: Wow. It’s an incredible shot.

ROGER AVARY: And… and this is incredibly difficult to do as well, because you’ve got a crane.

JOE ROGAN: And now you’re following the people.

ROGER AVARY: Now you’re following the people. And there’s Charlton Heston with his mustache. And we know as an audience that there’s a bomb in that car, but he doesn’t know. And so he’s still, you know, the…

JOE ROGAN: Just the fact that this is all one shot is crazy.

The Technical Challenges of Classic Cinema

ROGER AVARY: And for back then, I mean, it’s a big deal back then. The camera that you’re using isn’t just some little handicam or something like that. Now, you know, an iPhone. It’s a Mitchell BNCR, which is… you know, it takes four guys to move that camera. It’s made out of cast iron. You know, it’s a giant camera with a blimp and a blimp.

A blimp is a soundproofing device. So you have the camera, and then you’ve got to build a giant encasing for the camera because it makes so much noise. You don’t want to hear that.

JOE ROGAN: What did that look like?

ROGER AVARY: I have one in my home. It’s…

JOE ROGAN: Of course you do.

ROGER AVARY: Well, I…

JOE ROGAN: That shot’s incredible. I didn’t know that film existed.

ROGER AVARY: I bought mine from this commercial director named Charles Wittenmayer, and he had a massive collection of stuff, and then he liquidated everything. He just kind of cashed out of Los Angeles and he’s… he had a warehouse full of stuff. And so I went in and he’s like, you know, “Well, here’s… you can get this, and you can get this.”

I was like, “Okay, the Mitchell BNCR.” And we went over to it and he’s like, you know, “This Mitchell BNCR was used, you know, to shoot the Godfather.”

JOE ROGAN: So that’s what it looks like with the big lid on it.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, that’s actually… yeah, that’s basically the camera. That’s… that’s the camera is that. They also have some camera blimp.

JOE ROGAN: Is the thing on top of it?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, the blimp is… well, the whole thing is actually… the whole thing is a blimp. I mean, well, there’s… there’s a smaller area with the camera with a blimp on it. The… the big one. The whole thing is a blimp. And when you can actually open up all of these… these trap doors on it to reveal the camera inside of it, and then the reels that are in there you go. It’s… there’s an open one. An opened up one. Wow. That one looks like it’s holding an Arri on the inside. An Arri 100.

The Lost Art of Pacing in Cinema

JOE ROGAN: One of the things about old movies is they would let a scene cook. You know, you had so much time before people would talk, and you just let the average daily life sort of play out.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And it set the tone for the film. And they don’t now it’s like… it’s built for Netflix.

The Evolution of Filmmaking Technology

ROGER AVARY: Well, yeah. Well, now you have a white paper that Netflix gives you, and that, I think, was it Ben Affleck that was talking about it? You know, how you’ve got to have a beat in the beginning, and you’ve got to have this and this and this in regular things.

I mean, there was this book by Sid Field, which was a screenwriting book, that at one hand, it gave a kind of formula on what a movie should be. By page seven, your inciting event should happen. And by page 30, the first, he had everything mapped out by page. And that eventually found its way into the hands of studio executives. And they were like, oh, now we know what a screenplay is supposed to be structured like, in order to have proper story arcs and structures and a satisfying design.

And that’s just the next iteration is Netflix giving you a white paper saying you have to shoot with these cameras. You have to process at these labs. You have to have tech specs that are within this range. And that’s now extending to story because they’ve analytically looked at what audiences are able to process now, which is less and less, probably because of the COVID shot completely frying their pineal glands, can no longer pay attention to anything. And then on top of that, the mind control device of cell phones. And with all of that, they’re now like, well, how do we maintain the audience? And so you end up with white papers.

JOE ROGAN: Don’t you think it’s options, too? It’s almost like if something is not really fascinating within the first 20, 30 seconds, people just want to, let’s see what else is on. They just want to keep searching.

The Magic of the Movie Theater Experience

ROGER AVARY: Well, there is that. I mean, there’s something magical about being in a movie theater. You know, you’re in this congregation. Quentin always talks about how movies are my church. Well, it is a congregation, and you’re having, you’re sitting in the dark next to someone you don’t even know. They might have completely different ideologies. You know, race, creed, color. Like, everything is different about them, and yet you’re sitting in the dark next to them.

Having this ecstatic dream, this waking dream, sitting like insects, looking at the flicker on the screen. And you’re sharing this kind of experience that you’re physically trapped in. You know, like, you don’t get up and leave the theater and, well, you might if you have to go to the bathroom or get some popcorn or something, but they’ll even bring that to you. Now you’re having this kind of ecstatic experience, absorbing the movie with someone you don’t know, and you’re sharing your bodily electricity with them.

And I think this kind of, this is the magic that they often talk about of movies. It’s not necessarily the movie itself on screen. It’s the shared experience of being next to people.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: And that there is a kind of unseen electricity between people that unifies us. And I think that there are dark forces in the universe that are attempting to divide people up and to take that away, to take away that congregation.

JOE ROGAN: Do you really think that that’s on by design, or you think that’s just a natural function of streaming and televisions and phones and having access to things instantaneously?

ROGER AVARY: I personally think that streaming was by design to eliminate residuals by design.

JOE ROGAN: But isn’t it just a function of technology emerging?

Film vs. Digital: The Creative Process

ROGER AVARY: You notice that all of executives. Well, yeah, I mean, part of it is technology. But technology gets pushed and brought to the forefront for specific reasons. And digital cinema hasn’t been the greatest thing for the creative process. And I think we see that in the works that we’re looking at. I mean, if you watch stuff on Netflix and whatnot, we can see that it doesn’t have the same power and impact.

And also, when you were making a movie, when you were making a film on film, it was like every time you turn on the camera, you’re burning money. It’s like every single frame is like four cents or whatever, whatever the calculation was. And so that was actually an expensive part of the process. And so there was all this preparation to get everything ready. Like, we want to get all of the props in place right before we shoot, and the actors are in their trailer and they’re figuring out what they’re going to do.

And then you’re on your way to set, and people are like, hey, I’ll see you in the moment. And what they mean by that is when the cameras turn on and you actually hear that happening, suddenly everything pops into play. And suddenly you’re performing in front of, you’re, what you’re attempting to do is capture lightning in a bottle. And you don’t even know that you have it right away. You ask your DP like, do we have it? And it’s like, oh, well, there’s some dust in the frame or a hair in the frame. Let’s get another one. You get another one.

And then you hold that all in the dark, all that film, because you can’t expose it and you send it off to the lab and then some alchemist at the lab, at the castle, puts it into a potion and the next day what comes out are these little stained glass windows. And you watch it and you realize what you caught. You’re like, we did it. We captured something.

Okay? Now everything is different. You show up on set and everything’s digital and you’ve got producers and network executives and broadcasters and everybody’s there, studio people in Video Village and they set up like a little tent and everybody’s sitting there in their Canadian goose jackets on high chairs and they’re looking at a big color corrected monitor and there’s a guy doing color correction in a van and they’re basically watching an approximation of what it’s going to look like in the end.

And they’re sitting there, okay, on my first film, there was none of that. I had to stand next to the camera. We didn’t even have video tap stand next to the camera and look at the actors and see did the actors do what I wanted them to do? And now, they just turn on the camera and it costs more money to stop the camera and to restart it again. So you just let it roll and you’re just like letting it go and you’re like, hey, the director now is like, hey, go back, start over and smile this time.

And then they redo it. And then the editor is now like having to take those takes and separate them in the editing room. And the actors are like, suddenly the moment is gone. In other words, it’s vanished.

JOE ROGAN: Is there a way to do both? I mean, is it the medium of film? I mean, it seems like environment as well. You’re describing an environmental thing, right?

ROGER AVARY: Video Village executives. And the problem is now suddenly you’ve got a chorus of people sitting there who are like, oh, yeah, you got it. I saw he got it.

JOE ROGAN: Didn’t he get it?

Technical Differences Between Film and Digital

ROGER AVARY: You got it. But you as the director still have to run back and forth to the camera and to the actors and everything. And you’re trying to keep it all in place. And look, neither is worse than the other, right? They are both paint, but one is watercolor and one is oil paint. And those are opposingly different.

If you were an oil artist during the British Renaissance of watercolor paint, where all of a sudden watercolor came out and everybody wanted watercolor, why would you try to make your watercolor paint look like oil or vice versa? They’re just completely different mediums. They’re both paint, but they’re different. And so digital has its advantages and its purposes. You can, because you can run like a long mag of video. I call it video, everybody calls it digital cinema, but that was just to push it through.

And actually the technology is different. With film, light travels through the glass, it travels through a gate, it exposes the silver and the acetate and then you keep it all in the dark and send it away. With video, the light travels through the glass, it strikes the golden sensor and then it bounces back into the glass. And that’s why video or digital cinema is flatter by nature than most film.

And so to combat this, filmmakers have started to do the exact opposite. What we used to do. It used to be that you would go to shoot something you’re on, you’re outside, you’re on set, I’ve got my camera on Joe and I have the sun behind me because I want all that light on you. For the most part I’m over exaggerating my point, but the saying would be that at the end of the day you go home in the back of your neck is sunburned because you’ve always had the light behind you.

Now because the image is flattering, they rotate the camera 180 degrees and they shoot into the sun to get lens flare. And lens flare gives you the illusion of depth where there is none.

JOE ROGAN: I always thought that when you would watch soap operas, I was like, why do they look so weird? And it’s because they were shooting them on video instead of on film. Like, when we were filming Newsradio, the sitcom, we were doing it on film, and they were really adamant about doing it on film. Like, they really wanted it to be on film.

And then there was some process where you could make video look like film. And I was like, this is so interesting. It’s like we’re designed. Like when you take your photo with your camera on your phone and you use portrait mode, which is you blur out the background. So you’re making it shtier.

The Nostalgia of Film’s Imperfections

ROGER AVARY: You’re doing an artificial. Yeah, that’s because we associate the faults of media as film. Like, people think of old movies as gate weave and sepia tone and dust and scratches and kind of fast motion. Well, when those movies were originally made, the motion was corrected by the cranking of the projector. And so it was natural motion. There was no sepia tone change. There was no dust. It was originally. And there was no gate weave because it was a fixed image. The image, the celluloid hadn’t yet shrunk or anything like that.

And so now we have this kind of filter, nostalgic filter that we associate with what an old movie looks like. And so if you want to make something look old, you start adding all this crap to it. You’re adding the faults, and it’s the faults of cinema that actually make it really good. It’s not the perfection of cinema. That’s in my opinion.

JOE ROGAN: Because you would never be able to sell that if that cinema never existed. Like, if cinema never existed and video came around and then it was normal video, like, soap opera style. And then someone came along and said, hey, let’s make it blurry in the background, and let’s, like, it’s almost like we’ve become accustomed to the faults, and nostalgically, we look at them as if it’s a positive.

ROGER AVARY: And it’s also led by, everything is shot on iPhones now. And so that’s becoming the cinematic vernacular, the grammar that people are used to, and they now expect that in a big movie. And so suddenly you see something like the latest James Gunn, Superman, or Guillermo del Toro’s Frankenstein, and they’ve got these crazy wide lenses where there’s no distortion and kind of infinite depth and they’re shot in a very large format, but what they’re replicating is an iPhone, right?

And it just, I watched both of those movies, and I thought, okay, both of them are amazingly technically competent, and they’re made by highly professional people, but it looks like iPhone footage.

Guillermo del Toro and Frankenstein

JOE ROGAN: I’m a huge Guillermo del Toro fan. I even loved his book The Strain. It was really good till about three quarters of the way through, and it seemed like he just wanted to finish the book. Probably a bunch of s* just sort of happens in the last quarter of the book where I was like, this is kind of jarring.

ROGER AVARY: It became dinner time. Put this aside.

JOE ROGAN: It just seems like I can’t keep going with this book. It’s what it felt like. It felt rushed. Just my opinion, but I’m a huge fan of that guy, so I love Pan’s Labyrinth. I love a lot of his films, but I didn’t like Frankenstein.

ROGER AVARY: You know, I love Guillermo, and I love his spirit and I love his artistry. He is an amazing artist. He’s just literally, as an artist, you know, his sketchbooks are beautiful, and he brings a great amount of passion to his work. He brings that kind of Mexican passion to his work, and I adore him as a person, but to be perfectly honest, I’m not wild about his movies that much.

JOE ROGAN: You didn’t like Pan’s Labyrinth?

ROGER AVARY: I liked parts of it, but as a whole, it just kind of… And I don’t know what it is, you know, about it, but I mean, Blade 2 is probably my favorite film of his because it’s the least of… Well, actually, it’s quite a bit of him, but it’s just the most accessible for me.

JOE ROGAN: I didn’t know he did Blade 2. Which one that Patton Oswalt was in, where he had the whole bit about Wesley Snipes and then they replaced him with a cooler Wesley Snipes? I think that was 3. Yeah, it was probably Blade 3. I don’t remember Blade 2. Blade 1 was awesome, though.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: That’s my favorite of all the comic book vampire… Well, comic book movies, yeah. Because I was just a giant fan of the Blade comic book series.

ROGER AVARY: I also like his Pacific Rim movie. And I like parts of the moment in Frankenstein that I think is, for me, the entire movie. I could have left the rest of it. So much of it was just so melancholic and, you know, it was just like, I just couldn’t engage with it. But the part that I absolutely loved was at the Miller’s house where he’s learning language.

To me, that was the movie when he’s kind of secretly learning how to speak and how to be and learning morals. And to me, the movie… I could have watched an entire movie about that sequence. And it was also beautifully made. That part, just the rest of it I could have done without.

JOE ROGAN: It was just a little flat.

ROGER AVARY: And also it’s like, why does it have… It’s so freaking long. He could really learn a lesson. I was going to say he could learn a lesson from Ridley Scott, who just clips through things. He takes… You know, there’s a dialogue scene. I’m just going to do the essentials and just get out like it’s a commercial. The style scene doesn’t need to be any longer than 30 seconds. And he just clips along somehow. Yet his movies are still two hours long.

Nosferatu and Robert Eggers

JOE ROGAN: Well, they’re so involved. You know what I really loved? Nosferatu. Did you see the Nosferatu?

ROGER AVARY: No, I haven’t. You know, I don’t want to sound like a persnickety guy, but I had to be in the right…

JOE ROGAN: Want you to be persnickety.

ROGER AVARY: I had to be in the right mood to engage with that movie because, I mean, I like that guy’s first movie, The Witch.

JOE ROGAN: I never saw that. I heard it’s great, though.

ROGER AVARY: I love that film. I think that’s a great movie. And he’s like a production designer.

JOE ROGAN: He’s doing a werewolf movie right now.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, of course he is. Of course he is. I did not like his Moby Dick-ish Lighthouse movie.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, I didn’t see that. And that was the Willem Dafoe…

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Dafoe one.

ROGER AVARY: It was just garish and kind of… I felt like lost its way halfway through. And then, you know, this latest one, Nosferatu. Look, I am a Werner Herzog nut. And so I adore Werner Herzog and I love his Nosferatu. So for me to watch this guy’s version of that…

JOE ROGAN: Which one?

ROGER AVARY: I have to be in the right mood. I have to be in the right mood. I just wasn’t yet in the right mood to accept…

JOE ROGAN: Which one is Werner’s? Who plays Nosferatu?

Werner Herzog’s Nosferatu

ROGER AVARY: Oh, classic. The incomparable Klaus Kinski. And I know, I’ve seen… I mean, the thing about Werner Herzog when he made his Nosferatu. What’s, you know, the Murnau movie, which is the original Nosferatu, the very first one with Max Schreck.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that’s at the library. When I was exactly 10 years old.

ROGER AVARY: So the thing about Werner Herzog as a filmmaker is that most filmmakers have their forefathers that they can look back to. They can, you know, they have a generation before them that they can kind of imprint on. And because of the brutality and tragedy of World War II, he had none. There were no German filmmakers that he could look to.

And so he had to look to his grandfather, basically, which was Murnau when he made it. And so his film is almost haunted by the original. And then, you know, Werner Herzog grew up not using a telephone until he was in his teens. He’d never seen a telephone before. He had grown up in Upper Bavaria in the mountains.

And, you know, so he comes… His film is almost displaced in time. It’s skipped a generation. And he does things like, you know, he’ll show two actors in the most emotional part of the movie when Mina and Jonathan Harker are, you know, at the beach and they’re basically saying goodbye. And normally in a Hollywood film, they would cut to a close up so that we could see the tears. You know, we would cut to that close up.

But because his film is, you know, because he’s displaced in time, he stays back. He doesn’t even bother shooting a close up. To him, it’s more melancholic to show them just isolated as figures, you know, in a wide shot. And it truly is. And so his film is super powerful that way.

And then you have Klaus Kinski, you know, who is the madman actor of German cinema. And who is… I mean, there’s a documentary called My Best Fiend, which is about the relationship between Herzog and Kinski. And there’s an amazing scene in the beginning of that where Werner Herzog visits the apartment that he rented in, I think it was in Berlin, where he was first becoming a filmmaker and where he first met Klaus Kinski.

And he goes there, and it’s now occupied by these two, you know, just very conservative German couple. And he starts going through the house and saying, “Oh, yes, here. This is where Klaus, you know, went crazy.” And he started smashing it and s*ting on the walls. Because he was an insane guy. His whole thing was about provocation. And so he brings a kind of crazy vampire. I mean, it feels like a real vampire.

JOE ROGAN: I remember it now, but I haven’t seen it forever. What year was that?

ROGER AVARY: You mean the Kinski one?

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

ROGER AVARY: I think it was in the ’70s. So I’m thinking it was like ’78 or ’79, maybe even earlier.

JOE ROGAN: I know. I’ve seen all the Nosferatus. Let me see. Give me a… I will eventually see this.

ROGER AVARY: I will eventually see this new one.

JOE ROGAN: It’s f*ing good, man. It’s good. The dude who plays the vampire. What’s his name? The guy who played the clown in It.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah, Bill Skarsgård.

JOE ROGAN: He’s so good. Well, he’s so good. And so is this the scene when he meets the vampire? I don’t know. I just clicked on it.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, this…

JOE ROGAN: Oh, he cuts… Well, this is…

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, this is… I mean, that’s… I mean, Kinski brings just an amazing deep empathy.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It could give you blood poisoning.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, this is the English version.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Please let me do it. It’s the oldest remedy in the world.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, forget it. It’s hardly worth mentioning. Just a… You know, it’s only for the best.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

ROGER AVARY: The original is incredible.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so awesome.

ROGER AVARY: And that’s probably Kinski… You know, they’re supposed to cut and Kinski just keeps going. Yeah. I mean, Bruno Ganz… I think it’s Bruno Ganz is probably terrified in real life because he doesn’t know… Kinski’s crazy enough where he’ll bite him.

JOE ROGAN: Right. And he’s got those fake teeth then.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Let’s sit up for a while. All right, show me a clip from the new one. You got to see the new Nosferatu.

The New Nosferatu

ROGER AVARY: I mean, I had never seen a vampire like that. And then I think Salem’s Lot was made after the TV movies.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, Salem’s Lot is super similar to it.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: There’s a scene when he meets the guy at the castle.

ROGER AVARY: I did see one scene from this online with Lily-Rose Depp kind of reacting to something which was very compelling.

JOE ROGAN: Go full screen to this. This is when he makes it into the castle. It’s really dark, man. He did a fantastic job of capturing the creepiness of it. And also the surreal aspect of him being under the trance of this vampire. You recognize that reality is all skewed. Time passes very quickly. It doesn’t make sense. He’s super confused as to what’s going on.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, I have to say this movie feels haunted. As haunted by the Herzog version as Herzog was haunted by the Murnau version.

JOE ROGAN: For you, it would be…

ROGER AVARY: I encourage anybody to enjoy all three of them, I guess.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. I wonder if he was haunted by that or if I wonder who’s haunted by the original. But this is with the use of…

ROGER AVARY: All the little step frame modern ability.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, but it’s just the way they made the castle and the way they made him is very unique. There’s so many aspects of it that I thought were very unique. Even the way the vampire feeds on people is unique.

ROGER AVARY: This guy is a very, very, very good filmmaker. I just…

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You are late. The midnight hour has passed and my attendants have worn time.

ROGER AVARY: I don’t know so much about the way he’s talking.

JOE ROGAN: It’s weird. But it grows on you. Yeah, it grows on you.

ROGER AVARY: Well, I’m sure it has a haunting quality over time. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Like this. The guy just disappears and all of a sudden he’s way far away. There’s a lot of that in this movie. So the scene when they get him to sign papers, when he’s… Get up to that.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Questions about the… Many superstitions here that may seem backward to a young man of your high learning.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

ROGER AVARY: Sure. Prince Charles was jacking off to this film.

JOE ROGAN: Before they made that paint.

ROGER AVARY: Well, he… Apparently he visits Castle Dracula every year.

JOE ROGAN: Well, isn’t he related to Vlad Tepes?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, it doesn’t surprise me. I mean, he’s German. He’s of German ancestry.

JOE ROGAN: So I think Prince Charles is related to the original Vlad the Impaler. That would track with the…

ROGER AVARY: Whole baby eating thing.

JOE ROGAN: They give you a look of what he looks like. I think it cuts off.

ROGER AVARY: Probably.

JOE ROGAN: This is going to cut it off. They don’t want to give away too much. That was the other thing. You don’t really get to get a look at them for quite a while. And when you do, it’s horrifying.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. The movie is made in washes of darkness.

JOE ROGAN: It’s very dark. I mean it’s very much a candlelit movie, which I like because I don’t like a film where you’re pretending that people are in a candle lit. But it’s really well lit well.

ROGER AVARY: And that’s an example of where video actually is a better medium to choose because it, like digital loves darkness and it can do things in darkness that film just doesn’t have the capacity to do.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: And so it’s an excellent choice. When we did Silent Hill, we made the choice of whenever we’re in the dark, we’re shooting on digital and whenever it’s during daylight, we’re shooting on film to create a kind of dissonance between the two. And so, and that’s largely because digital loves dark. And this is a great use of it.

I’m warming up to it. I like, I’ve been waiting. I bought it on Blu ray. I have the movie. I mean, I keep it. It’s in that stack. And I’ve just been waiting for the right time to expose myself to it. But I’m in the right mood.

JOE ROGAN: I loved it. I’m no film expert, but it’s my favorite vampire movie ever.

ROGER AVARY: Well, that’s, that’s actually saying a lot. That’s, that’s incredible.

JOE ROGAN: I loved it.

ROGER AVARY: That’s incredible.

JOE ROGAN: My, a fun vampire movie is 30 Days of Night.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, 30 Days of Night is great.

JOE ROGAN: I love that one too. It’s not as good as this. This is, this is.

ROGER AVARY: I think I Am Legend is actually a pretty good vampire movie.

JOE ROGAN: The.

ROGER AVARY: The one with Will Smith.

JOE ROGAN: I thought there are zombies.

ROGER AVARY: Well, they’re kind of, it’s a contagion film. Technically they’re not really zombies, but they’ve been turned into like vampire like creatures there in that film. That’s a really good one. And then that, what’s his name? Taika Waititi, that Polynesian director who did the Thor movie. Did, God, what was it called?

JOE ROGAN: The.

ROGER AVARY: We are. I can’t remember the name of it, but it’s like a comedy version of vampires. Like kind of all living in a house and, and sort of.

JOE ROGAN: How old is that?

ROGER AVARY: This was made in sometime in the mid-2000s, I think.

JOE ROGAN: Vampires living in the house. What We Do in the Shadows yeah.

ROGER AVARY: What We Do in the Shadows.

JOE ROGAN: Did you see that?

ROGER AVARY: No. That is an incredible vampire movie. It’s, it’s kind of like a mockumentary, like where they’re there, but it’s, it takes all of the kind of vampire mythology and it makes it really, really fun.

JOE ROGAN: I’ve never even heard of this.

ROGER AVARY: It’s fantastic. This is his best film. This is, I’m sure the foundation of everything he’s done has been on what we do for me, What We Do in the Shadows.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so crazy. I never even heard of it.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, it’s, it’s wonderful.

JOE ROGAN: Show me the trailer.

ROGER AVARY: Jamie.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We are granted protection subjects in this film.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, it’s like a Blair Witch Project type deal. It’s been like this the whole time. Deacon on dishes and it still hasn’t moved in five years. You’re a cool guy, but you’re not pulling your weight in the flat. Oh, I’m glad to hear that. I’m cool. No, that’s not the point though.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, no, I know.

JOE ROGAN: Not a flat meeting about how cool you are.

ROGER AVARY: When you get three vampires in a flat, obviously there’s going to be a lot of tension.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The argo was an 18th century look. A ghost cup. Bratislav is a bit of a pervert.

ROGER AVARY: This is my torture chamber.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Deacon’s like the young bad boy of the group. I’m supposed to pay rent, but I don’t.

ROGER AVARY: The trouble with being a vampire is.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You have to be invited in.

ROGER AVARY: Will you invite us in?

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We need some fresh.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

ROGER AVARY: The whole movie’s like that. It’s fantastic.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, that’s funny. Will you invite us?

ROGER AVARY: Just invite us in. The bouncer’s like, no. And they can’t do anything about it because they’re vampires.

JOE ROGAN: Let the Right One In.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, okay. That is of all the modern vampire movies. I mean, I haven’t seen the, what’s his name?

JOE ROGAN: Eggers. The American version of it.

ROGER AVARY: No, I hate the American version. The American version is, Let Me In is terrible. Like I had to wash my eyes afterwards with another movie.

JOE ROGAN: I didn’t mind it.

ROGER AVARY: I hated the.

JOE ROGAN: But because I loved the foreign version. Who, which country was it from?

ROGER AVARY: I think Sweden. Sweden.

JOE ROGAN: It’s really.

ROGER AVARY: It’s, it’s an outstanding, outstanding film in the book is fabulous as well. It’s an amazing novel. Yeah.

Vampire Films and Horror Cinema

JOE ROGAN: I just love a good horror movie, a well made horror movie because, like, the suspension of disbelief is like inherent to the enjoyment of the film. Like, you know, like, just show me. Show me how the guy turns into a monster. Show me.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, make it so. Make it so. And also, you can see, like, I mean, they have been making Dracula movies again and again and again. It seems like every year there’s another vampire movie coming out or every couple years, at least. And, you know, there never seems to be an exhausted. The market never seems to be exhausted right by it. You know, it’s zombie movies. They, they continue making them. You know, it’s like that’s the most.

JOE ROGAN: Overused genre is zombie films. Zombie films, zombie TV shows. I mean, how many versions of the Walking Dead are there? There’s multiple.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And I, I’m not a big fan of the. I, like.

JOE ROGAN: I mean, the beginning was great, I think, first season.

ROGER AVARY: But then I, when I realized, oh, it’s just sadism. And I mean, I get the point. After the first season, I realized, oh, the point is that the walking dead are the living. They’re actually the walking dead.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: Because they’ve become emotionally.

JOE ROGAN: I didn’t like it. It got into the point where they were just, it was just murder porn.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And, and, and that, I mean, I think I even talked about this before. That, like, that’s a real problem with television, is that they’re just trying to get the serotonin levels spiked by killing someone that you care about. And, you know, real television, you return the characters and you want to return to it.

JOE ROGAN: Well, sometimes it’s done well. Like, Game of Thrones did a fantastic job of doing that, but even that.

ROGER AVARY: Kind of lost its way after a while. I mean, actually, eight seasons.

JOE ROGAN: I’m, I’m rewatching it right now. We’re actually on season three right now. It’s great. I, I kind of forgot how great it was. But when you get to binge it and you don’t have to wait, like, like there was years in between seasons. It took so long to produce.

ROGER AVARY: Have you seen the Pendragon cycle?

JOE ROGAN: The.

ROGER AVARY: The Rise of the Merlin?

JOE ROGAN: No.

The Pendragon Cycle and Modern Television

ROGER AVARY: Okay. So these days, like, you almost don’t know where television, where to find television, and that’s because you can find it anywhere. Like, and the main, the mainstay producers of it, the studios and everything, they’re no longer reliable in producing quality television. And so suddenly we see stuff rising, you know, out of places that is completely unexpected.

And this was produced by the Daily Wire of all of what people? Yes. And the CEO of the Daily Wire directed it. This guy, Jeremy Boring. Yeah. I hope I’m not mispronouncing his name. His name is Boring. But.

JOE ROGAN: And this is good.

ROGER AVARY: Okay. This is to me, this is better than, you know, it’s, I have a very high watermark for, for Arthurian mythology. Like, to me, Excalibur is the high watermark. And this really went, this, like, I had a chip on my shoulder when I started watching this. I was like, okay, this is very unlikely that I’m going to enjoy this production.

But they did it for like a, for a micro budget, effectively. They made something that is absolutely, kind of reinvents the mythology. And they do it like proper television where you kind of love the characters and they, they weave an entire reality and universe that is just fantastic. And it’s done for, like, you know, for very, very little.

You know, they’re spending billions making these Lord of the Rings things and, like, nobody cares. They’re just awful to watch. And in the meantime, these guys just, you know, without anybody paying attention, cranked this out and I’ve only seen four episodes of it, but I am like, completely blown away by it.

JOE ROGAN: That’s so interesting. The Daily Wire, anything about. I think that’s part of the problem.

ROGER AVARY: Well, that’s because, well, like, we don’t hear about a lot of things and media is like the least of it.

JOE ROGAN: Right, good point. But certainly with the Daily Wire, the problem is it’s like associated with this right wing production company.

ROGER AVARY: You can get over that and like, and put that behind you then. I mean, this is to me as good as classic television.

JOE ROGAN: My prejudice was initially, oh, they’re going to somehow or another embed right wing ideology in this.

Propaganda in Film and Television

ROGER AVARY: Well, everybody’s embedding their own ideology. Whenever you make any media, there’s usually you have corporate propaganda and personal propaganda, and usually there was a balance between the two. If you’re making Midnight Express, for example. Okay, that movie was nothing like the book at all, really. Not even close to the book. And it’s a complete alternate experience.

And you wonder, why did that movie, why was that movie such a big success? Why was that movie such a overwhelmingly, like, Oscars and everything? Okay. I think it had a little bit more to do with the politics of what was going on with Turkey at that time than anything else. And, and, and, you know, what’s his name, Billy Hayes, who, you know, experienced it, lived it, spent the rest of his life basically apologizing for the movie.

And because none of it, he wasn’t like raped in a Turkish prison. And that’s like, that’s like the original. That’s like a joke that gets, you know.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: You know, an airplane. They’re making jokes about it. Right. And so, yeah, Billy Hayes, he was the, the actual character or the person who lived the experience. And, and so the movie is a kind of propaganda element. And that’s like all Hollywood does that we, you know, you kind of accept whenever you’re making a movie that you’re being used in a certain level to do something, whether it’s to, you know, on a very basic level, whether it’s just to, like, you know, mortify or scare audiences or, you know, to, you know, to do things.

And we see that more and more obviously in media as the director. The personal propaganda, when you have something personal that you want to get on screen has become more and more diminished and you have, you know, sort of more corporate propaganda kind of taking over. And I think the, the, the most probably crass example of that is DEI stuff, you know, in movies and pushing characters in situations that are just completely out of whack.

JOE ROGAN: Did you see the story Star Trek, that they tried to make? Like that.

ROGER AVARY: Okay, I’m like a big Star Trek guy. I watch Star Trek every day in my house. We watch like two or three episodes. And I’m not kidding, my wife is like a Trekkie. She is like, crazy for Star Trek. And so she puts Star Trek on, you know, like at around 5 o’clock, Star Trek comes on.

JOE ROGAN: Original.

Star Trek and the Evolution of Television

ROGER AVARY: Well, Picard, we cycle through. We go chronologically from the original series through The Next Generation and then DS9 and then Voyager and then Enterprise. Then we look back to. And sometimes when you show an episode like in DS9, there’s an episode called “Trials and Tribulations” where all the characters go into the past and they kind of interact with “Trouble with Tribbles” and they kind of blend them into the set and everything that’s happening. We’ll then go back and watch “Trouble with Tribbles” or same thing with “Wrath of Khan.” We’ll do this, so we’ll kind of connect it all together.

But every day there’s at least two or three episodes of Star Trek playing in my house. I usually have to wrestle away the controller to say, we’re watching a movie now. And my children were basically raised on Star Trek and the sort of morals behind Star Trek. And people complain about, oh, I don’t like DS9 as much. It’s not as dynamic. I hate Bajor and blah, blah, blah. But I think Captain Sisko is one of the most amazing Captains there is, because he’s also a father. And there’s all these father-son lessons that are going on throughout it. It’s really elaborate television.

And by the way, all that kind of DEI stuff is still in it. It’s still there. They’re exploring all sorts of things in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Riker, who’s the second in command to Picard in that one, there’s an episode where he goes to a planet of Neuters that are just, they have one gender and he falls in love with one and they kind of waken up out of their single gender thing and realize, oh, I’m female. And that person then gets taken and reprogrammed. And then there’s an episode where Worf is turned into a woman in order to, for some cockamamie reason that they come up with in the show. And he kind of likes it. He’s getting into it. So it’s not like they aren’t exploring gender and they’re not just beating you—

JOE ROGAN: Over the head with it.

ROGER AVARY: It’s somehow integrated into good storytelling. And I think something happened at the studios where they fired all of the legacy people and they hired on a bunch of new people who just weren’t as good at storytelling and, or as respectful of the canon, I guess you could say. Right, is what it was.

But those seasons of Star Trek, which I guess you could call the from the Gene Roddenberry into the Rick Berman era, I mean, they had such amazing writers. They had guys like René Echevarria and Naren Shankar and they had technical advisors. So if you were just into the tech, you could really, and most of our technology and most of our aspirations have come from Star Trek. Our telephones are basically tricorders. And we’re all, and when we see it on Star Trek, like, oh, we talk to the computer. Well, I want to have that. And so somebody figures out a way to develop that and to make it so. And now we have that.

JOE ROGAN: Didn’t he actually say “computer”? Yeah, he would say “computer.” Computer question.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, well, like, “Hey Siri.”

JOE ROGAN: Hey Siri. Same thing.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And so it’s, I mean, I think it’s a fantastic show. And then this dweeb Alex Kurtzman comes along and just shits all over everything. Just craps all over it. And I mean, I went in and met with the guy. I was like, hey, I will write for scale. I’ll write on your new show. I just want to be—

JOE ROGAN: Part of it, just as an opportunity to work on Star Trek.

ROGER AVARY: And he was. And I basically found out he didn’t want anybody who had any kind of fondness for the original show. He wanted to do something new and to create something new. And boy, has he shit the bed in a big way. And this latest thing that they’ve made, this Starfleet Academy, now, it’s still ongoing. Maybe it writes itself at some point.

JOE ROGAN: I think they canceled it.

ROGER AVARY: Did they? Good.

JOE ROGAN: The newest, good.

ROGER AVARY: They read the room. They read the room. Finally.

JOE ROGAN: Didn’t they stop the idea of a season two?

ROGER AVARY: That f*ing Alex Kurtzman, man. His company’s called Secret Hideout. I think he’s going to need a secret hideout after all these, after destroying Star Trek for this latest generation.

JOE ROGAN: Are we talking about the newest one? The one with Tig Notaro? That’s the newest Academy.

ROGER AVARY: Starfleet Academy is an abomination. Is that what you’re talking about? I could not get through three episodes of Discovery. And I mean, they’re just, it is just awful. Awful storytelling.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s also clunky dialogue and bad acting.

ROGER AVARY: Just horrible. And they’re more interested in the corporate politics, in the corporate propaganda than they are with any kind of personal propaganda.

JOE ROGAN: Right. It seems like that’s the imperative. It’s like they get across this inclusive concept.

ROGER AVARY: Picard was terrible.

JOE ROGAN: It was.

ROGER AVARY: It was sad, actually. It was just depressing for me. And so when—

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s so Seth, what’s his name.

The Orville and Galaxy Quest

ROGER AVARY: Did that show The Orville. And that is the proper successor. They brought back guys like James Conway, the—

JOE ROGAN: But I don’t know what The Orville is.

ROGER AVARY: It was kind of like a comedy version. Seth MacFarlane did, but he hired all the original people that they’d fired from Star Trek and basically used them to do his show. And it actually feels a little bit more like a continuation.

JOE ROGAN: I never heard of this either. And it’s on Hulu. Yeah, yeah, it is. Is it Star Trek or is it—

ROGER AVARY: No, it’s not Star Trek. It’s The Orville.

JOE ROGAN: So they just ripped off Star Trek.

ROGER AVARY: Basically just ripped off Star Trek. And they have a sort of tongue-in-cheek quality. But they bring all the writers from the original and showrunners and people like that and the original directors, like Jim Conway. I’m blanking on the name. I want to say Conroy, but it’s, I think it’s whatever. And so they bring everybody back and it has a little bit more of the same spirit.

Another really good Star Trek-ish thing is Galaxy Quest, something that got kind of buried with Sigourney Weaver.

JOE ROGAN: Sigourney Weaver, yeah, that was good.

ROGER AVARY: Galaxy Quest is hilarious. If you love the original series of Star Trek, Galaxy Quest is amazing. It’s so fantastic.

JOE ROGAN: I love Sigourney Weaver. Yeah, she’s one of my all-time favorites. That’s a good example of a movie that was like a DEI movie that you never even noticed. It was Alien.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You have a female lead and you never think about it.

ROGER AVARY: We didn’t have powerful women in movies before. We’ve had them throughout history. Right. The history of cinema is built on, and by the way, a complex woman character can have faults.

JOE ROGAN: Right?

ROGER AVARY: That’s part of it. Characters have faults, characters have things wrong with them. They’re not always just—

JOE ROGAN: Dominant and noble.

ROGER AVARY: Dominant and can do everything immediately.

JOE ROGAN: Exactly. Like the, some of the Star Wars ones that went woke. There was a few of those.

J.J. Abrams and the Middle Ground

ROGER AVARY: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s funny, you had, I think it was here Ben Affleck was on and they were talking about AI and how it always goes to the middle. And, well, it always goes to the middle. It always goes to the middle. And I was like, J.J. Abrams always goes to the middle. And boy, was that Star Wars he did the middle where he just basically took the Luke Skywalker story and just reinterpreted it with a strong woman character. And I just thought it was bland and just tasteless and just nothing new. He just went to the middle. So you don’t need AI to go to the middle.

JOE ROGAN: No, no, you just need them. Mandate. And the thing about Alien too, was you didn’t know who the hero was.

ROGER AVARY: Alien 2 or Alien? You mean Aliens as well?

JOE ROGAN: I mean Alien 1. I didn’t like Aliens 2 as much. It was fun. But it was like, why are they so easy to kill now? Why are they so obvious?

ROGER AVARY: They were space Marines. And Marines are tough, Marines are badass. And Marines can, and the first Alien, those aliens, they still overwhelmed her.

JOE ROGAN: I know, but the first Alien was clever. He was hiding. He would sneak around, he would jump. You didn’t get to see much of it. And that was also cool too, because it kind of captured you with the suspense.

ROGER AVARY: It’s one of the best movies ever made ever.

JOE ROGAN: And it’s a 1979 movie too, which is crazy. People don’t even know how old it is.

Ridley Scott’s Recent Work

ROGER AVARY: What’s funny, I recently went back and started watching all the Ridley Scott movies I hadn’t seen. There’s a ton of them that I just kind of missed along the way. And I started off with, God, what was it? Oh, I started off with Napoleon because I just missed it when it came out. And I’m like, what happened to Ridley Scott? And I have not liked any of his recent Alien movies. I just think they’re, I’m confused by them.

JOE ROGAN: The Prometheus ones.

ROGER AVARY: It’s just like when you need a web episode in order to understand what the hell he’s talking about in the movie, you failed. And they’re just, they’re high flow. They’re technically technical marvels. Nobody shoots big canvas cinema like Ridley Scott. No one shoots a helicopter crashing like Ridley Scott shoots a helicopter crashing. And you watch Napoleon and sure, the Battle of Austerlitz, amazing to watch, cannonballs going into the lake and the ice breaking and people falling in the water.

But the minute anybody talks in that movie, it just collapses on its own weight. It’s just, you just don’t care. My wife was like, this is the worst date movie. You’re not going to sleep with me after this.

JOE ROGAN: What’s wrong with it? I didn’t see it.

ROGER AVARY: Well, Joaquin Phoenix, who, and I think he made a choice because I consider him to be an excellent actor. But in this movie, I think he made a choice to just play it contemporary. He just kind of talks. Everybody else is doing sort of a British or French-ish accent. They’re all kind of pretending that they’re in a period piece. But not Joaquin Phoenix. He just plays it like he just walked off Hollywood Boulevard. Really? And he, and just like the battle scene, there’s no passion in any of his performance. It’s kind of this weird, dead, dead performance. And so I—

JOE ROGAN: He did it on purpose to betray, like a sociopath.

Ridley Scott’s Napoleon and Exodus: Gods and Kings

ROGER AVARY: I think he came on, he was like, I am going to do whatever I want to do the way Napoleon would. And I’m not. And I’m not going to try. I’m a Corsican, and I’m not. I’m going to be an outsider to all of these other people who were. I think there was an intellectual idea behind what he did, and it completely failed.

So I’m like, okay, I adore watching Ridley Scott do these big scenes, but what a terrible movie. And, you know, like, failure. And then. Then I. And so then after that, I’m like, okay, let’s. Let’s watch something else. Well. Oh, he did Exodus. I’ve never seen that. Gods and Kings with Christian Bale. Same thing.

It’s like, you start watching that movie and there’s some interesting things in the film. He’s got, like, chariot battles and, you know, archers shooting things. And, like, you know, whenever he’s doing that, like, Ridley Scott’s like, oh, this is my day on set. And he’s got a cigar and 20 cameras. You know, put cameras everywhere, and he’s like, shoot from every angle. And he’s like a great general, you know, shooting.

But the minute anybody talks, that movie falls apart. And actually, I mean, I don’t know how to say this, but that movie almost did its best to turn me on the Jews. Like, I’m watching it and I’m like, this is like, first of all, is anybody even Jewish making this? Like, it seems like nobody involved in it was Jewish. And like, they start like, you know.

JOE ROGAN: How is that even possible?

ROGER AVARY: Well, Moses as a character when he’s an Egyptian, when he’s like, the adopted Egyptian brother, I’m like, totally with him for some reason. Then he becomes Moses after getting hit in the head with a rock. And all of a sudden he’s, you know, kind of. He’s like a lunatic. And like, you’re like, everybody’s following him. Like, he’s like. He’s distaste. He’s distasteful all of a sudden.

And but every now and then they would show a battle scene and it’s like, okay, I can. Like, Ridley Scott’s doing his thing again. But like. And you know who’s also really good in it is God. I can’t remember Joel Egerton who plays Ramses. It’s really funny because Joel Egerton is, you know, usually you imagine Egyptians when they’re cast as being kind of tall and, you know, sort of noble looking and everything. He’s kind of like this butch, like, sort of tough, you know, wide bodied butch Ramses. Like, just kind of like a tough Ramses.

And every now and then his Australian accent comes out. So he’s like all, oh, he’s like an Australian Ramses. And John Turturro plays his father, you know, a bald. I’m like, is that John Turturro? What a crazy choice this is. And so there were all sorts of, like, interesting things going on in the movie. But again, I was like, oh, this is awful.

The Challenge of Watching Movies as a Filmmaker

JOE ROGAN: Is it impossible for you to watch a movie without just becoming hypercritical about all these different aspects, like how I would do it, what I don’t like, yes and no.

ROGER AVARY: So the next Ridley Scott movie I watched, which I stayed away from, and with great apologies to Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, was the last duel. And I just kind of avoided it. I was doing other things at the time and the poster looked awful. And I was like, I’m not going to go see that. And then I put it on after watching these other two and I was like, okay, here we go. Let’s go again. And lo and behold, one of the best films of the century in my.

JOE ROGAN: Really?

ROGER AVARY: Absolutely. First of all, those guys know how to write a script. And I know that they wrote it with Nicole Holofcener or whatever her name is. And look at. And look at Ben Affleck. Like, when I saw him blonde, I was like, that’s one of the reasons it kept me away from it. But he’s hilarious in the movie. He’s a genius in the film.

JOE ROGAN: I never even heard about this.

ROGER AVARY: I was gripped by this film. And this is a great date movie like this. My wife got turned on after this film, believe it or not. That’s hilarious.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t know anything about.

The Last Duel: A Revelation

ROGER AVARY: And Adam Driver is magnificent and, like, this relationship that these two guys have. And it’s kind of a Rashomon story, meaning that, like, Akira Kurosawa’s Rashomon, which was three stories that are all sort of the same event told from different perspectives. And so. And Matt Damon is like a revelation.

And this movie says so much about Hollywood. Like, when I watched this, I was like, okay, I’m Matt Damon. And Quentin is out of Driver for sure. Like, Adam Driver totally knows how to, like, you learn about Hollywood in this film. And I’m sure they’re writing it, like, knowing about Hollywood that the way to really get along in court is to join the orgies. You know, to be in the orgy with everybody is like how you get along. It’s like we all f* together, and that’s how we do it.

But Matt Damon, who by all accounts in this is a great. You know, he’s a fighter. He’s a great knight. He. He’s true in his heart, but he’s just a like a pill to hang out with. And he doesn’t go to the orgies. And because of that, he’s just kind of marginalized.

And the whole movie plays off of this friendship that just kind of goes awry, where jealousy comes into play and. And. And it’s ruinous to everything until they’re finally fighting in the very end. And this is where Ridley Scott just does what he does, which is he has this insane fight between these two guys, which, like, was just. Every blow was painful to look at.

And this, to me, was the best Ridley Scott movie I’ve seen of the century. I mean, I guess Black Hawk Down. I also very much like Gladiator, although Gladiator 2, I throw that in. I never saw that throw that in with Exodus, Gods and Monsters. It was actually boring to watch.

JOE ROGAN: I love Gladiator 1, though.

ROGER AVARY: Gladiator 1 is magnificent. It had some kind of secret sauce in it that was fantastic. And Gladiator 2, it just kind of goes through the paces. It’s just kind of. Everybody shows up. Speaking of showing up, when Sigourney Weaver shows up in Exodus Gods and Monsters, she’s not even trying at all. She knows that she’s there for a paycheck. Like, she just shows up and she’s just like. Does not put on an accent of any kind. She just shows up and just speaks the lines and I’m out of here. I’m going into Morocco or whatever. Into town. I’m going to go party for a while.

JOE ROGAN: You think she just thought it was a bad film and just checked out?

ROGER AVARY: I’m not sure what she was thinking, but like she may have been thinking what. I mean, maybe she was trying, but I don’t. It just didn’t look like it. It just looked like she was.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s got to feel weird. Actor makes a choice with a character and it just doesn’t work. And they don’t realize it, but they’re committed to it.

The Counselor: A Dark Masterpiece

ROGER AVARY: And the other Ridley Scott movie that I just watched that I hadn’t seen, again, I avoided it partly because of the, the, the title of the film and there’s just nothing excited. I thought it was a comedy. In fact, I’d been avoiding it. It was on my Plex. There it is. I look at the thing, it looks like a comedy. It’s got Javier Bardem and Cameron Diaz and they’re all kind of Javier Bardem looking exactly like Robert Downey Jr. Like in it. Like just kind of this crazy. Robert Downey Jr. In his crazy phase, you know, with like colorful glasses and everything. Robert Downey Jr. With like a broken up nose or whatever’s going on with that nose.

And okay, so I put on The Counselor and this. So looking at that, I thought this was a comedy. I thought, oh, it’s going to be a romantic comedy, this movie. After I saw it, I was like, I feel like I’ve seen too much. I feel like I know too much now about the world. Like it’s it and it. And it’s made like right before, you know, I think this movie was kind of a disaster for Ridley Scott and he, you know, had to recover from it probably because of the, the failure of it.

But I never even heard of it. It’s written by, oh my God, Cormac McCarthy. And so, so it is dark, dark, dark. And it is a, an analysis of how power works in the modern world, which is basically a giant cartel. The cartel runs everything and you cannot escape the cartel. And it is such a spectacle. I think that’s such a spectacular movie.

JOE ROGAN: I loved it.

ROGER AVARY: I loved it.

JOE ROGAN: When did that come out?

ROGER AVARY: Like 2014, I think 2013. 2013.

JOE ROGAN: Did you ever hear of it, Jamie? I don’t think so. There’s too much content.

ROGER AVARY: Well, there’s too much content and yet really Scott’s. And he’s cranking out movies like every year he’s doing a movie. It’s like just knocking him back. Knocking him back. He’s constantly making films and so that was why I hadn’t. And so finally I was like, well, I got to catch up on some Ridley Scott.

And. And Quentin had been talking about Black Hawk Down and how much he loved it and how he thought it was the best film of the century. And, you know, he’s largely correct. That’s not a bad. I could have done without the UNICEF commercial at the very beginning where it’s just like, you know, a little UNICEF commercial about people starving in Africa and Somalia. But the rest of the movie is just insanely beautiful.

And so I wanted to check out all the movies I hadn’t seen of his. And. And so that’s why I started researching them and looking them up again. And like The Counselor, how did that fall through the cracks? And it gets terrible reviews. Like, people hated the film, apparently.

JOE ROGAN: And what’s the criticism?

ROGER AVARY: People like, I think they were just like, we don’t believe it. They just don’t believe that that’s what the world is like. And, you know, I found the film to be like, do you think that’s.

JOE ROGAN: Just because of the time period it was released more innocent?

ROGER AVARY: I think Ridley Scott knows things that. And Cormac McCarthy know things about the world that they put on film before everything was known. Like, I think if that movie was released today, people would be like, yeah, that’s what’s happening today.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: And so. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, they’re putting people in sulfuric acid into milk, into drums. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: What the f*?

ROGER AVARY: And shipping them around the world, you know, as a joke, you know, like.

JOE ROGAN: That’s in the film.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: There’s also, you see the thing in the Epstein files.

The Atlanta Airport Incident and Predictive Programming

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah. Like, in fact, I can’t believe that, like, everybody just kind of like, oh, okay. And they’re moving on with their lives. Did you see that guy at the Atlanta airport flipping out the well dressed black dude who just freaks out at. In the Atlanta. Just like a couple of days ago on. I saw it on YouTube and I saw it on Twitter or X.

And this guy’s just freaking out in the Atlanta airport. He’s like, I read the Epstein Files. Like, all of you, you’re going about your lives like nothing’s happening. Look at your old zombies. And he’s right. It’s like Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Everybody is just numb to everything.

Like, like, dudes, we had a global pandemic. Aliens, you know, all these, like, revelations. People are, you know, eating babies. Here’s the guy. And there’s a longer version of that where he’s. But he’s basically like, you’re all acting like nothing’s happening. Like, what the f*? You know, you’re all just pretending you’re just drones going on in your normal world. What?

JOE ROGAN: You’re waiting for a condensed version that lays out all the facts. It’s the people that are, like, really interested in reading all the emails.

ROGER AVARY: I think the Luciferians cast a spell on the world.

JOE ROGAN: For real?

ROGER AVARY: Oh, absolutely. It’s just like how vampires can’t go into a house unless they’re invited. They tell you, you know, what’s going on ahead of time. It’s predictive programming. And once you say it out loud and you put it out there and make fun of it and do a little skit like they. Like Stephen Colbert did a little skit on his show where, oh, here’s a baby. I’m going to take this baby and I’m going to give it to Moloch.

And he goes into like a cloudy red furnace and hands the baby over, and the baby’s going to be fine. And they make a joke about it and the audience laughs. Okay. We’re all now conditioned to it. It. We’ve all seen it. And by laughing at it, we were complicit.

JOE ROGAN: You think that that’s a. That’s on purpose, that this is like some sort of a grand design to get us to be desensitized to the idea of demons eating babies?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, for sure.

JOE ROGAN: Really, for sure.

ROGER AVARY: And by the way, nobody’s doing anything about it. We know what’s happening.

JOE ROGAN: But that has to take, like, there has to be a person or some group of people.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. Like, about 8,500 people.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. That are manipulating the Colbert show, that are manipulating everything.

ROGER AVARY: It’s all an illusion. Like, reality as we know it is fake. That’s the revelation that that guy is having. And he’s looking around and he’s like, it’s like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

The Coded Language in Leaked Emails

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s. See, I don’t. The thing about the emails is one of the things is it’s just stuff written down, and so that’s sort of hard to digest. Like, what is this? Like, what are they saying? Like, some of it is in code. Like, walking over beef jerky. Like, saying. Talking about jerky. Could you walk beef jerky over to this person?

ROGER AVARY: Like, what does that mean for all this pizza they’re talking about? You never see any pizza, right?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, yeah. They’re ordering.

ROGER AVARY: I’m going to get some grape soda. It’s like, with my cheese pizza.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: And like, there’s all this coded language, and everyone’s like, you know, oh, that’s. You’re just. You just have pareidolia. You know, the. You’re just seeing things where you want to see them.

JOE ROGAN: No, this is clearly a code. Well, that was the thing about pizza.

ROGER AVARY: Absolutely a code. And in fact, mundus vult decipi ergo decipiatur. It’s a long known concept. And so in Latin, mundus vult decipi means the world wants to be deceived, ergo decipiatur. Therefore it is. We want to be deceived. We don’t want to believe the horrors that are actually behind the veil.

The Epstein Files and Sulfuric Acid

JOE ROGAN: Well, I think with the Epstein files, people are. Because of these emails that have been released, people are just now starting to be aware of the bizarreness of the code and some of the things like the facts. Let’s just talk about the sulfuric acid. So this was like, right after he was indicted in 2000.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. I got to get rid of some bodies. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: How much.

ROGER AVARY: Dissolve up some bodies.

JOE ROGAN: What did it say he ordered, like, let’s.

ROGER AVARY: Like, 8,000 gallons.

JOE ROGAN: Maybe we can get our sponsor, Perplexity to process this and give us a synopsis of what exactly happened. Some sort of a breakdown. Because one of the things they’re saying is, like, he was indicted. And then right after he’s indicted, he orders how many gallons? Six 55 gallon containers full of sulfuric acid. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. What?

ROGER AVARY: What? They’re eating babies, man. Like, that’s so. That.

JOE ROGAN: That you think is real, so.

ROGER AVARY: Well, yeah, not only that, I think that there’s, you know, sacrifices going on every day in Los Angeles. I mean, you know, allegedly, like, you know, high level musicians. Let’s say high level female musician is like, you know, killing chickens every day doing sacrifices. Like, you know, high level. I don’t want to say names because I don’t want to get sued and I don’t want to be dead either.

JOE ROGAN: What does it rhyme? Like, here’s the purchase order. I go, okay, I start looking the comments for some stuff. Not that this is the best answer, but a quick answer someone gives is that this could be for, like, a reverse osmosis water treatment system.

ROGER AVARY: True. He is on an island.

JOE ROGAN: He’s on an island.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, there’s enough. There’s enough pushback because mundus vult decipi ergo decipiatur. You know, we. We. But, like, the timing of all of that, like, you know, where are the purchase orders for all of that sulfuric acid before then? Oh, no, I just want to put sulfuric acid into my swimming pool. Muriatic acid?

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s the question. Was there orders for sulfuric acid before this? If they do have a water treatment plant, how does sulfuric acid play into water treatment?

ROGER AVARY: It says it here.

JOE ROGAN: It says it’s commonly used. This explains it. I don’t f*ing know. Okay? It says, RO Plant Reverse Osmosis Seawater Desalination Facility. Sulfuric acid is commonly used in the maintenance of such facilities. Not everything you don’t understand adds up to the worst possible thing it could be.

ROGER AVARY: Deception. Look, maybe they’re all eating pizza and grape soda. How many.

JOE ROGAN: Who is that guy?

ROGER AVARY: How many billionaires do you know that you know, sit down and eat lots of pizza and grape soda and ice cream?

JOE ROGAN: This is weird.

ROGER AVARY: Chickens.

JOE ROGAN: I just. That’s why I just go. A grain of salt. This is just a plausible answer. I don’t know that it is the answer. It could even be wrong. Okay, so does he have a desalination plant on the island?

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah, for sure. He is. He is a. He had everything. He had a dump. And like, they had all sorts of stuff.

JOE ROGAN: So that’s tunnels and so they were using that. So they’re taking seawater and converting into fresh water. For what? For irrigation or for drinking? For all the above. One similar email that he wrote to someone said that, like, his around his island is like Damascus. And I’m like, what the f* does that mean? He was like, you go explore buried shit around my island. Or what else could he mean by that, huh? What does that mean? I don’t know.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, that’s. They say a lot of things and they’re not really coding it very much.

JOE ROGAN: Well, the code, it’s glaringly obvious when they say pizza and when they say jerky, that’s glaringly obvious. How do you walk jerky?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: You know what I’m saying?

ROGER AVARY: Why do I need a chilled container to.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: You know, a chilled bag or whatever they.

JOE ROGAN: Jesus Christ.

ROGER AVARY: You know.

JOE ROGAN: And so you think they’re eating babies?

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah. I absolutely believe that.

JOE ROGAN: You should get together with Kurt Metzger. Crazy.

ROGER AVARY: I don’t doubt it for a second. Well, I think. And I think this dates back, like, you know, a long, long time. Dates. This is Moloch worship.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there was the other email that said thank you for the torture video. I enjoyed the torture video.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And it’s like people just. They don’t want to accept it. Like, people don’t want to believe it. They don’t want to accept it.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. Some commentary notes that a remote island with water treatment and energy systems could plausibly stockpile such quantities for one to two years of operations. Although others argue that using it directly for reverse osmosis, as stated in one social post, is technically questionable for membrane health. Hmm. Highly corrosive, strong mineral acid that can severely burn skin, eyes dehydrate and char organic material, which is why it features in both legitimate industrial processes and in darker hypotheticals online.

ROGER AVARY: Darker hypotheticals.

JOE ROGAN: Darker hypotheticals is where I’m leaning. When you get indicted for sex trafficking and then you order six drums of sulfuric acid right away, are you really worried about your reverse osmosis plant right after you get indicted? I feel like. Like, you know, you’re going to change.

ROGER AVARY: It looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. It’s probably a duck.

JOE ROGAN: It’s probably a duck. 330 gallons of sulfuric acid. It says this was the only documented purchase order for it.

Kubrick’s Hidden Messages

ROGER AVARY: I came out here last time and I talked about, you know, the. The pedo cult inside of the Kubrick film.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. By the way, I went viral and.

ROGER AVARY: I got so much blowback from that. You know, online critics are like, no, no, there’s nothing in there. Mundus vult decipiatur. They don’t want to see it. They don’t want. They don’t want to see those two guys walking away with that girl in the end. They just like, no, no, it’s. It wasn’t in the Schnitzler novel and blah, blah, blah.

I mean, dude, look at that movie. It’s about a cult. Like, what are you talking about? It’s a secret cult. And in fact, Sydney Pollack’s character even says at one point, you know, do you know what these people do? I’m not going to tell you what they do, but let me tell you, if I told you what they do, they would, like, like, scared the hell out of you.

I mean, like, that’s. After he’s been to the place and seen everybody walking around at the. In the sex club. I mean, it’s obviously. There’s obviously more going on in that movie, but people don’t want to see it. I, like, Like, I had. What was it? New York Magazine or whatever went so far. It’s like, you know, aggressively trying to get me to debunk it, and. And. Which is fine. Just fine. It’s just an interpretation of a movie.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But that. That interpretation resonated. I mean, that clip went very, very viral, especially now.

ROGER AVARY: It’s like people are like, looking at it and they’re like, well, you know, he was obviously saying something. Even if you extract that out of the movie, he’s obviously saying something about people at high levels of power.

Compromised Power Structures

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s always been weird secret groups and rituals. Yeah. And it’s one of the ways to ensure that. But you’re compromised. You’ll stay.

ROGER AVARY: It’s a confidence operation. Yeah. And so what you do is you find somebody when they’re young and they’re, you know, less inhibited and they, you know, or uninhibited, and you catch them doing something that is illegal and maybe you even provide the mechanism for that to happen.

And then once it’s happened, you, you now have the, the video proof or the audio proof or whatever proof you have. You’ve got proof of it and you show it to them and you say, look, this is what we have on you, and, and we can ruin you at any minute. But you know what we’re going to do? We’re going to give you $20,000 a month or we’re going to give you $20 million a year, whatever level that is, instead, and you’re going to work for us.

And, and, and what else explains some of these people who are so flipped out about, like, you know, about Trump? These are pots. He’s like, it’s over the top. It’s, you know, it’s strange how people are, how people behave in regarding that. It’s.

JOE ROGAN: Don’t you think that’s also just because the Democratic Party didn’t want him to get into power because he was a complete outsider?

The New Chronology Theory

ROGER AVARY: I don’t think there are parties. I don’t think there. I think that’s all an illusion also. I think everything that you think that it is is an illusion. It’s all fake. I don’t think that any history before 1600, I think everything has been falsified before the year 1600.

JOE ROGAN: How so?

ROGER AVARY: Well, there’s this guy, Anatoly Fomenko, who’s a Russian mathematician and historian, and he wrote a book called the New Chronology. It’s actually a series of books. It’s like six volumes, and I’ve read them all. And also his addendum book, the New Chronology, he has an addendum book about it.

And he basically says that all of history has been changed. About a thousand years have been added to the timeline in order to justify land claims. And those land claims largely have to do with the Eurasian hordes and the elimination of the Eurasian horde by collusion between, you know, The Vatican, the Romanovs, the.

JOE ROGAN: So you mean like the Mongols and the Huns?

The Phantom Time Hypothesis

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, there was a. And if you look on very, very old maps, you see that there used to be a country called Tartaria that was in existence, and at a certain point, they wiped them out. And so his theory. And it’s just a theory, it’s just deposit. But when you see how history is constantly being rewritten in real time, it’s not so hard to believe.

And then he uses, you know, astronomical evidence and, you know, mathematically kind of proves it. And he basically says that. Let’s see if I can get this right, that Rome and Greece and, you know, those and Egypt were actually active till around 1600, and that Rome actually fell around 1600. So kind of imagine, or more like late 1400s, 1492, as opposed to. Was the conventional timeline about a thousand years before.

And so, you know, if you can wrap your head around it, the Salem witch trials took place around the same time as the Inquisition. Columbus was discovering America around the time Rome fell. And that all of this was designed to justify and. Or to erase this entire civilization from history. And then there are people who believe that there are a lot of buildings that are still in existence that were this. They claim that Jesus Christ was. I can’t remember the emperor’s name. It’s kind of a composite story. There’s a number of.

JOE ROGAN: So they think a thousand years are missing from the time.

ROGER AVARY: Well, think about it. If you’re a Byzantine guy and you’re like, hey, I want to move to the country, and you look over at France, let’s say, and Germany, and you’re like, yeah, there’s all these indigenous peoples there, and we want to wipe them out. So you hire, you know, a mercenary, you hire a guy named Charlemagne, and you get him to go in there and kill all the chieftains in one day. Like 5,000 chieftains were killed in a single day, apparently by Charlemagne.

And you completely wipe out everything. And then you move in, you become Jerome, the Jerome the first, and you run Paris, or you begin, you know, France, and what it really is is just land. And so you add time to the timeline in order to justify that land claim, because what makes more sense, that history was cruising along like this and then suddenly flatlined for a thousand years and then picked up again? Or does it make more sense that somebody took that time, that the Dark Ages, and kind of added. Added to the timeline?

JOE ROGAN: So I’m confused. So. But isn’t there documented history from multiple cultures about that time period?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, but it’s all written down by the Jesuits who were completely in the control of, you know, it’s that history. History is easily changed. And in fact, we see history being changed before our eyes in real time. And so the deep past is easy to change.

JOE ROGAN: So we’re not in 2026?

ROGER AVARY: No, we’re like in the 1700s.

JOE ROGAN: Oh, Jesus. Oh my God.

ROGER AVARY: Just a theory. It’s just this guy Anton, and, and Anko, and, and it’s a very interesting theory. And so I read that and I kind of had a tent pole collapse. It was like, well, holy crap.

The Dark Ages Flatline

JOE ROGAN: Explain to me the flatness. Like, what do you mean by history goes up and then flat?

ROGER AVARY: Well, the progression, the progress humanity through history as we kind of are progressing as we go. And then all of a sudden there’s this flatline called the Dark ages where nothing happened.

JOE ROGAN: Is there a conventional explanation for this?

ROGER AVARY: Flatline for a thousand years, the collapse of Rome and falling into the time of barbarism?

JOE ROGAN: That’s not plausible.

ROGER AVARY: Everything is plausible. It’s plausible that sulfuric acid is used for reverse osmosis, this water cleaning. And so everything is possible. The question is, is it probable?

JOE ROGAN: Well, Jamie just pulled up that that was the first time they had ever ordered that.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, really?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: Okay, so. Well, there it is.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that’s not good.

Desensitization and Cognitive Decline

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, that’s not good. I mean, that’s the least of the things. The thing is, we become desensitized to stuff. I mean, look at everything that has happened in the last six years. It’s like an insane amount of stuff has happened and everyone’s just kind of numb to it.

JOE ROGAN: Well, they get decent.

ROGER AVARY: And I think it literally is that people’s brains have been fried.

JOE ROGAN: You think by Covid vaccines?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, for sure.

JOE ROGAN: Well, there’s some scientific evidence that for some people at least, it crossed the blood brain barrier and had some sort of a detrimental effect on their cognitive function.

ROGER AVARY: MRNA is reprogramming your system. And, and we’re, I think, and we’ve been looking at a giant die off of people. People are collapsing left and right. Nothing is normal anymore. I mean, that guy at the airport who’s flipping out, that’s what he’s realizing. He’s having a sudden awakening and he’s tweaking over it. He’s like. And he. He’s looking around and no one cares.

Everyone just wants to like, you know, through their day. Everyone wants to just make their next movie and maybe they’ll let me make their next movie. And everybody wants to just, you know, I just want to keep going at my job, and I just want to do my thing, and I just want to protect my thing.

JOE ROGAN: There’s certainly a lot of that going on.

ROGER AVARY: British only care about it as long as I have my daily pint. At the end of the day, that’s all I care about. You know, they’ll. In the meantime, their entire country is being overtaken and overrun by. Like, when else in history has this happened and ended well?

England and Canada’s Decline

JOE ROGAN: No. Well, it’s so shocking how quickly it’s happening in England that you just go, how do you bounce back from this? Like, what is the remedy? Yeah, because they’re doing this mass arrest thing with social media posts, which is bizarre. It’s bizarre to watch. And then they eliminate jury trials for anything other than murder and rape.

ROGER AVARY: If you say anything, you’re in jail. If you repost anything, you’re just immediately sent to jail. Look at what’s going on in Canada right now, you know, with Carney. I mean, I think that’s insane what’s going on. And most Canadians are just kind of vibing along with it. Nobody wants to rock the boat. Nobody wants to be racist. Nobody wants to be, you know, nobody wants to be discriminatory in any kind of way. Rightfully so.

You want to believe that your leaders are taking care of you, and they’re not. And it’s over. We’ve lost. It’s over.

JOE ROGAN: I mean, you think it’s over here in America as well?

ROGER AVARY: Well, it got slowed down a little bit. It got. So whether you like Trump or not, and I’m not a. I don’t really like anybody, but that’s a healthy perspective. It definitely added a road bump in the actions of the cabal of the Clintons and the Obamas and the bankers that control them.

And that’s. When you see the movie the Counselor, that’s what you realize is that, wow, the cartels are the bank, and they are law enforcement, and they are the media, and they are everything. And there is no fighting it. There is no individually fighting it. Like, there’s nothing any of us can do that is. And I don’t mean to be. I mean, the only thing you can do is, you know, affect what’s happening around you locally within the moment.

JOE ROGAN: But don’t you think that more people are aware of what’s going on right now? There’s more pushback than ever before. And so there’s a possibility that it could be stopped.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, look at that guy. Look at that guy in the airport, though. Nobody. Everyone’s like, he’s crazy.

JOE ROGAN: Yelling at a f*ing airport. I would think he’s crazy, too.

ROGER AVARY: Well, it’s.

JOE ROGAN: If I was there waiting for my flight to go visit my parents, and there’s some f*ing guy yelling out the Epstein file. You just live in your life like, yeah, what do you want me to do, dude? I’m headed to Florida right now.

Invasion of the Body Snatchers and McCarthyism

ROGER AVARY: Invasion the Body snatchers was about McCarthyism and what was going on at that time.

JOE ROGAN: Really?

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah, it was. The original Invasion of the Body Snatcher was all about McCarthyism. And I’m the.

JOE ROGAN: I’m a fan of the Donald Sutherland one.

ROGER AVARY: Well, and look at it. And look at how that ends. That ends with you’re walking through the streets pretending to be, you know, like, you’re just pretending to not be an alien, hoping that you can get by. And then, you know, the minute you show any kind of emotion, that’s it. You’re caught, and then they’re going to make you go to sleep. And so, I mean, so that.

JOE ROGAN: The original script was written about McCarthyism.

ROGER AVARY: The original. The original film. Yeah. So Kevin McCarthy movie.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. So.

ROGER AVARY: And in the end, look how that movie ends. That movie ends with him, like that guy in the airport on the street. You know, they’re. You know, they’re. It’s. It’s. They’re aliens. He’s basically, you know, running through street, just in traffic. People just keep driving.

JOE ROGAN: I don’t remember the original one. I might not have even seen it. But the Sutherland one was amazing. I never would have thought that that’s what it was about.

Modern Bolshevism

ROGER AVARY: I mean, we’re experiencing a kind of Bolshevik revolution at the moment right now. So.

JOE ROGAN: In what way?

ROGER AVARY: Well, there’s a rise of Bolshevism. You know, it’s like we see it. We see it occurring.

JOE ROGAN: And how do you define Bolshevism?

ROGER AVARY: Well, it’s. The Bolsheviks were essentially a kind of. I mean, it’s. It’s. It’s not correct to say communism, but it’s basically a kind of authoritarianism, you know, in the guise of egalitarianism and helping the world know we’re all going to be equal and everything. But.

JOE ROGAN: And they were.

ROGER AVARY: Social socialism. Yeah, they were murdering Christians and social. And, you know, we’re very, very close to that now. We’re very, very. We’re on. We’re standing on. Civilization is standing on the precipice at the moment.

And by the way, you know, after this podcast comes out, people are going to be like, oh, Avery’s crazy. Avery went to jail. Avery’s, you know, a killer. They’re going to say all sorts of s* about me to discredit anything that I say, and that’s fine. Like, I’m easy to discredit. And so it’s not really my right to speak up anymore about anything.

JOE ROGAN: And so you’re a human being. It’s always your right to speak up.

ROGER AVARY: Well, it is, but they can eat s*. As I look. As I look around, civilization is on the precipice, and, you know, mostly good people tend to not take action.

JOE ROGAN: Against stuff until they have to.

ROGER AVARY: Until they have to.

Unity Through Crisis

JOE ROGAN: We were talking about this yesterday, actually, with Cheryl Hines. And I was saying. I think we were talking about this. I was talking about this recently where I was saying that it’s almost like we need something like a 9/11 to wake us up. I would never want that to happen. But I do remember that after 9/11, we were united because we realized, oh, threats are real. Danger is real. Like, we really do need to be united as one group, a community, and recognize that our brothers and sisters in the streets are not our problem.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, but we even know about 9/11 now that so much of it was like building 7 thermite. The evidence is there for anyone to look at.

JOE ROGAN: Nobody wants to look at it.

ROGER AVARY: And nobody wants to look at it because.

JOE ROGAN: And that is nobody wants to look into conspiracy. Like, how did these guys get a hold of these planes? How did they fly into the building? Why were the dancing Israelis watching it, cheering it on? Why did they get shipped out of the country?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And that guy who owned the building, who bought it, who took out it, like the insurance policy, and then, you know, had Elliot Spitzer kind of push it through and force it through so that he could receive his billions in insurance claim. Because they wanted to tear down that building and it would have been too expensive to do and all the asbestos and everything. So better to just destroy it.

JOE ROGAN: It’s like, what was that building housing? Like, Building seven.

ROGER AVARY: Building seven was housing all sorts of. It was like. Was an IRS.

JOE ROGAN: I mean, NSA.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, it was NSA.

JOE ROGAN: What was in Building 7? Well, let’s find that out. So we don’t just. I think. But there was certainly some intelligence and data that was being collected in billions. The fact that no one wants to admit that that building fell like a controlled demolition is really crazy. And again, I’m not saying it’s a controlled demolition. But the fact that people want to say no, it wasn’t like a controlled demolition. Like when was the last time you ever saw a f*ing building collapse? Collapse like that ever. Only controlled demolitions.

Yeah, there’s been many buildings that have been very badly damaged and lit on fire, but their frame remains reputable.

ROGER AVARY: Structural engineers have basically also proven the towers could not have fallen the way they fell without explosives. You know, pre-planned explosives. And the people on the scene, the rescuers on the scene, the people who were there said, yeah, I heard explosion, boom, boom, boom, boom. They’re describing the sounds of controlled demolition.

JOE ROGAN: U.S. Secret Service, floors 9 through 10, CIA, the Department of Defense, sharing the 25th floor with the IRS and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

ROGER AVARY: Like you put all that together. CIA, Department of Defense, IRS. You know, who thinks any of those people have your right.

JOE ROGAN: But also if you wanted to destroy your best interest in data, you wanted to destroy data. Like didn’t the part of the Pentagon that got hit wasn’t. And that was also a day after Rumsfeld was saying that there was trillions of dollars that were unaccounted for. Yeah, didn’t the accounting part of the Pentagon get hit by that air quotes plane?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, yeah, that, that plane. That was that plane that came in very Jimmy.

JOE ROGAN: The building contained about 24,000 gallons of diesel fuel for generators used by tenants like Solomon Brothers and the emergency Command center, floors 46 through 47. And parts of the lower level were mechanical spaces while files from federal investigations, Secret Service cases were stored there but lost in the collapse. And the SEC whoopsies.

ROGER AVARY: And has the world been the same since then?

JOE ROGAN: The SEC like having that there too. Boy, that’s super convenient. Guys, we lost the data. Let’s just start from scratch. There’s no case anymore. Whatever they were doing and yet nobody.

ROGER AVARY: Wants to accept it. Nobody and nobody cares.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it’s the video of it that is like really shocking. I had this real, really dumb guy on the podcast once that was a skeptic, a professional skeptic. And he was really angry with me for saying that it looked like a controlled demolition. You know, you’re promoting a dangerous conspiracy theory. I’m like, no, I’m saying it looks like you’re saying it doesn’t. Look, let’s watch it. I’m like, let’s watch it.

ROGER AVARY: Conspiracy theorists have had a pretty good run lately. Let’s watch it.

JOE ROGAN: Let’s watch Building 7 collapse because it’s kind of kooky.

ROGER AVARY: Now.

JOE ROGAN: One thing that people do point out that is true is that the center, like there was a small structure at the top of the roof. Building seven that collapses first. And it does it like I think a minute before the actual building.

ROGER AVARY: These are skirt built. These are skirt buildings. And what that means is that’s actually the most structurally sound part of the building. The rest of the movie is a facade that’s hanging off of the inner building. Yeah, that’s the most sound part of the building.

Building 7’s Structural Design

JOE ROGAN: It was built over a Con Edison substation requiring large transfer trusses on lower floors to support the tower above. Creating long span floors vulnerable to thermal expansion. Long unsupported floor beams and girders up to 50 feet connected to critical inches. Critical interior columns like column 79 with sheer studs that failed under fire. Induced lateral loads rather than just gravity.

ROGER AVARY: It was the auto manual flip flop.

JOE ROGAN: The exterior tube frame provided stiffness, but the open interior layout lacked redundancy to prevent fire. Induced progressive collapse with connections not designed for horizontal thermal forces. Okay, that’s a cute way of saying that’s why it fell at free fall speed and looks like a controlled demolition. Because if that was my building, I would say, give me my fing money back. You made this s a building. This building got lit on fire and just collapsed on itself.

Let’s watch it collapse. Because the way it collapses is so kooky. Because it really does it at free fall speed or close to it. It’s strange. Like there’s never been a building that looks that intact that falls like that. It’s weird, man. I mean, it’s f*ing weird. Anybody that says it’s not weird, look, this is how it happened. It’s weird now. The planes hitting Tower 1 and Tower 2. Okay, that makes maybe more sense to me.

ROGER AVARY: Does it?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: Does it?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, because it fell from the top down. Like it looks normal. It doesn’t collapse into its base. Tower 7 collapses into its base.

ROGER AVARY: The way tower. But how about the testimony of people saying they heard multiple pop, pop, pop, pop, pop explosions? Is that just girders snapping?

JOE ROGAN: It could be, yeah. I mean you got to think you have immense, immense amounts of weight and it is collapsing. So if it does collapse the way it looks, it’s collapsing from the top down. It’s not going to be silent. You’re going to hear tremendous explosions. When concrete hits the slabs below it. It’s going to sound like explosions.

Also you have the fog of war, right? So you have these people that are involved in extremely traumatic situation and their memory is very fed. Like your memory is fed. When you experience something like this, you remember things funny, you have confirmation bias. There’s a lot of weird stuff that happens.

So this is the, this is the explanation that a piece of the plane falls down and hits that building and big tower on top? Yeah, yeah, I’m sorry. A piece of the aerial building. I meant to say sorry. So that that piece of the building falls down and not a plane obviously hits the building next to a Tower seven. And that gash is all it took to take that building down. That’s super suspect. And I do know that there’s a fire inside the building. I’m sure. I’m sure there was. But the way it fell was crazy.

That see Tower one and Tower two, it’s like, I don’t know what happens when a jet flies into a building like that. Neither do you. And also, you got to deal with corrupt construction companies, cutting corners, not doing things up to code. Perhaps, perhaps. I’ll give you that. I’ll be super charitable, but with Building 7, I’m like, come on, man, that’s weird. That one’s f*ing weird.

Because it doesn’t fall like 1 and 2. 1 and 2 fall from where the impact was. The deterioration of the structure, the weight of what’s above the impact, it falls down on it and you see a progressive collapse from the top to the bottom. Tower 7 is nuts. Tower 7 just drops. Just drops all at once. Free spot, free fall speed into its base. That’s weird.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Anybody that doesn’t think that’s weird is being naive. Yeah, that’s never happened before to a building that hasn’t been a controlled demolition. Again, not saying it’s a controlled demolition. Maybe it’s accurate that these enormous drums of diesel are creating this fire unprecedented load on the structure of the building.

ROGER AVARY: But see, even that, with everything else that occurred, with all the tangential stuff that’s occurred, you’re still giving the benefit of the doubt you’ll have suspension of dislocation.

JOE ROGAN: But I’m saying right now, I was trying to finish that. Fire is not on every floor uniformly. So why is it collapsing uniformly from the top down into the base? Why doesn’t the base where you have this incredible fire load, why doesn’t that weaken and it fall over sideways? Because it no longer has structure anymore.

Why is it every floor has the same amount of damage and it gives in at the exact same time? That kind of doesn’t make sense because the fire is not uniform throughout the building. It’s not like the building is one gigantic flame Ball. And then it all gives out at the same time. But even then, I would think it would tip over, it would fall to the side, falling into its base. That seems to indicate some sort of a control. Like it was done uniformly. They time it. When you watch, like in Vegas, when they blow up a casino, it’s like. And then it does that.

ROGER AVARY: Let’s watch.

Comparing to Controlled Demolitions

JOE ROGAN: Watch an actual Controlled Demolition. So when you watch an actual controlled Demolition, it looks just like that.

ROGER AVARY: Just like that.

JOE ROGAN: And then. I don’t know.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, the testimony of your eyes are telling you the truth, but your brain, you know, will come up with all sorts of stuff. Because Mundus Vault Decepi.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I’m not allowing it to. With Tower 7, I’ve always maintained a pretty open mind with that. But also I lean towards shenanigans in that one because that one just seems Tower One and Tower Two, maybe. Maybe Tower Seven. Come on.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Tower said nobody looks. And if they’re. If they’re telling you the Tower 7 seems normal, that seems. They seem so gaslighty. Everybody that says that seems like they’re gaslighting. So here we go. Hit it. Okay, this one’s. They’re setting up for a controlled demolition. So they’re showing you how that’s kind of a s*ty one. There’s other ones that have done a better job with. But it’s the same kind of thing.

ROGER AVARY: It’s still falling into. Onto itself.

JOE ROGAN: Yes, it’s falling into itself the same way Tower 7 did. That’s the.

ROGER AVARY: See that movie, that building shape that has a skirt building. It’s got a center structure.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s a different kind of structure. It has a different look to it. Let’s watch that one. Okay, there. Like there. Come on. That looks exactly like Tower 7 when you watch that. Back that up again a little bit, please. Watch that from the top. From the beginning. Just a little bit before. Right before it drops. So watch. They’re looking. They’re watching. We’re going to watch the building drop. There it is. That f*er goes right down. Like Tower. Like, from there. Come on. That’s exactly like a controlled demolition. And even the way it looks as it’s going down looks exactly like Tower.

Predictive Programming in Hollywood

ROGER AVARY: You know, we were talking about predictive programming and how movies and, like, spells can predict stuff in advance and, you know, kind of prepare you for the future of what’s coming, you know, in 1999, a movie came out which was effectively a manifesto. And that movie was called Fight Club. And what’s the end of that? Movie. The end of that movie is the collapsing of the buildings, which are the financial system, you know, of the future, so that they can create a new future.

Who produced that movie? Arnon Milchan. Who is Arnon Milshan? And they got a commercial director to do it, Fincher. And, like, he’s an excellent director, and I think it’s a excellently, beautifully made film. But who is Arnon Milchan? Well, you know, he himself has said, I am a Mossad agent. And he said that out loud. Like, that’s not me saying that. That’s him saying that. And Fincher said, oh, yeah, my last movie, that was made by an arms dealer. Well, that’s him. That’s Arnon Milchan.

And so, you know. And what’s another Arnon Milchan movie? The Medusa Touch, with George C. Scott and I think Lee Remick. And in that movie, what happens? An airplane crashes into a building. You could probably pull that one up too. An airplane crashes into a building. This guy’s obsessed with airplanes crashing into buildings and. And buildings collapsing in movies.

And so what’s likely, you know, is he. Has he been reading these scenario plans that Defense departments make and that are maybe, you know, Mossad plans that are made. I’ve worked for the DoD through John Milius, and we wrote scenarios. They gathered together a bunch of Hollywood writers into, you know, into a. What is like a conference room, like a. Was like more like a ballroom, but like a small one, and gather a bunch of us together around a table and said, let’s come up with ways on how to attack Los Angeles.

And we all wrote scenarios on how to attack LA, and now they just use AI to do all that. But. So, you know, has he just been, like, reading these? Does he have access to them? And so he just puts them into his movies? Well, that movie was made in 1999. And what happened right after that movie got released, Those buildings came down. 9/11 came down. And so is it predictive programming where you’re showing the world what’s to come and that makes it almost somewhat acceptable to do.

JOE ROGAN: Whoa.

ROGER AVARY: Or is it just coincidence? And most people out there will say, oh, no, it’s just coincidence. It’s coincidence. He just happens to be. I mean, that’s what he has said. I don’t know if he is or not Mossad, but that’s what he said.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that’s the thing about the majority of terms conspiracy theorist. It’s slapped on things, and it immediately sort of diffuses any real questioning of, oh my God, are things this bad? Is there this much?

But as time goes on and you’re confronted with more and more information, and I think we’re in the beginning stages of reckoning with these files that were just released where so many people, I haven’t really read much of it. I’ve only read the things that are really outrageous that my friends have sent me because I’m just trying to maintain my sanity.

ROGER AVARY: Well, that’s just it. Most people want to maintain sanity. You just like, I just want to get through the day. I just want to, you’re busy. Yeah, well, people are even more than busy. I want to be happy.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: I want to raise my children in a peaceful world and where people respect each other and where we can make something out of yourself through hard work and through merit. That’s the world I want to live in. And more and more it feels like we’re not in that world.

The AI Engineer’s Warning

JOE ROGAN: Did you see that thing that was just released today? I think it’s the AI company Anthropic. I think that’s the company. So one of its engineers resigned and essentially said that humanity is doomed and he’s going to move to the UK and just write poetry and just wait it out.

ROGER AVARY: Hasn’t that guy seen Threads? The UK is like one of the most dangerous places to be. That’s where he’s going to wait it out.

JOE ROGAN: Well, he probably has.

ROGER AVARY: Well, when he says UK, does he mean, where does…

JOE ROGAN: I’m not sure. Maybe he means like the Scottish Highlands. He’s going to hide.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And go into some small town f*ing, just hang out at a pub.

ROGER AVARY: They’re going to populate that town with suddenly 800 war capable men from another country are going to move in and they’re going to move.

JOE ROGAN: Been to the local someplace that the west has conveniently been bombing and creating refugees on.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. Creating angry people. Yeah, yeah. Who have.

JOE ROGAN: You don’t want to think that it’s all planned out like that, but of course you don’t.

ROGER AVARY: That was a bit.

USAID and Regime Change

JOE ROGAN: Of the exposure of USAID. So I like many people thought USAID was about aid. I thought it was like a beautiful philanthropic program where the United States donates money to all these poor countries. That’s how they get food.

Like, I had Bono on the show and he’s like, I’ve heard that 30,000 people have already starved to death because of this. 30 million people are going to die. I’m like, okay, but do you know how much corruption was involved with this? Do you know that it’s not aid. It’s the Agency for International Development.

And mostly what they were doing was regime change s*. And Mike Benz laid it out, and he said USAID was for tasks that were too dirty for the CIA, which is crazy.

So if they’ve been engineering this long game and engineering the collapse of legitimate governments all throughout the world, bombing places, creating refugees, and then having these, not just open border policies, but inviting and helping people get into countries and then giving them money when they get there.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: So many people do not want to admit that that was really going on, despite all of the evidence. That’s another. It’s designed to destroy whatever confidence you have in law enforcement, in civilization, in the electoral process.

ROGER AVARY: What’s the answer? Okay, so given a choice between totalitarianism or cannibalism, which would you prefer?

JOE ROGAN: Right. Right. You take cannibalism because you don’t want to be eaten. Yeah. No, I mean, you take totalitarianism because you prefer to be eaten.

ROGER AVARY: I would rather not be in the movie The Road, but I feel like immediately, I feel like we’re increasingly in the movie Children of Men, and I mean, that’s, that movie was a pretty accurate futurist example of where we’re heading. Yeah. With collapsing birth rates and.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: At least portions of civilization looking at extinction. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: I mean, they’re experiencing totalitarian South Korea, Japan.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. What is.

JOE ROGAN: Can you find that guy’s manifesto? Excuse me.

ROGER AVARY: Cuarón is a genius for making that film. I just want to say Children.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Fantastic movie. So today is my last day at Anthropic. I resigned. Here’s the letter I shared with my colleagues explaining my decision. That’s a lot to read. What is the synopsis? Just ask Perplexity what the synopsis of what this guy said.

Okay. Sharma, who built defenses against AI assisted bioterrorism and push for transparency on model risks at the San Francisco AI firm, announced his resignation on Monday. He described struggles to let values guide actions amid mounting pressures, planning to return to the UK for a poetry degree and step back from the spotlight.

His exit follows other safety team departures amid Anthropic’s launch of Claude Opus 4.6 and a massive $20 billion funding round at $350 billion valuation, fueling debates on balancing safety with commercial speed.

Okay, but what is he saying specifically is the issue? Let’s click on that. Let’s f* it. Let’s click on.

ROGER AVARY: His AI started talking to him and scared the bejesus out of them.

JOE ROGAN: The safe hold. He’s part of the guiding of the. Damn it. Lost the word. Yeah.

ROGER AVARY: Bioweapon. I mean, look, this guy’s built something, and all of a sudden he’s realizing all the players that are funding it are likely scary. Scary people.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, scary people who are all in.

ROGER AVARY: The same club, drinking baby blood and Ophel together.

JOE ROGAN: What’s awful again?

ROGER AVARY: S*. Meconium. Meconium, which is like, it’s a thing.

JOE ROGAN: Baby poop. Yeah, that’s in the files. What comes next? I do not know. I think fondly of this famous Zen quote, “not knowing is most intimate.” What my intention is to create a space, to set aside the structures that have held me these past years and see what might emerge in their absence.

He’s already working on his poetry right here. I feel called to writing that addresses and engages fully with the place we find ourselves and that places poetic truth alongside scientific truth as equally valid ways of knowing.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. It was written for him by AI.

The Speed of Light and Einstein’s Theories

JOE ROGAN: Elon said something very bizarre recently. He was talking about the speed of light, that the speed of light cannot be, you can’t bypass or exceed the speed of light. If you believe Einstein, he said, unless we live in a simulation or.

ROGER AVARY: Unless Einstein was wrong.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, a lot of astrophysics is based on a false premise that P equals P prime and that the sun is designed a certain way, and it’s completely wrong. And everything that we know about the stars and how we view the nature of the universe is fundamentally incorrect.

JOE ROGAN: How is it wrong?

ROGER AVARY: It’s based on this idea of the, this stability of Kelvin temperatures in the sun, which is this P equals P prime thing. And the guy who invented CAT scan machines, there’s sort of a Venn diagram overlapping of this photographic technique and astrophysics.

And what he realizes, holy cow, that is not true. And therefore, so much of everything that we know about how we view the cosmos is incorrect. And so now, how’d they find out.

JOE ROGAN: That it was incorrect?

ROGER AVARY: Well, he’s a mathematician. He figured it out. I would have to look up his name and everything.

JOE ROGAN: And what is incorrect about it? Do you remember that?

ROGER AVARY: Well, at the beginning of astrophysics, there is this formula. And if that formula is wrong, then the preceding calculations are also wrong, or at least off. And so the idea is that what we view is really just, it’s kind of a cartoon that’s painted for us using all these formulas and using radio telescopes. And so things are not as they seem.

JOE ROGAN: Well, they already have issues with the findings from the James Webb telescope.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, yeah, well, that’s probably part of it. I have to say, I mean, I’m a provocateur, and so I’m always interested in finding that which upsets people’s concepts of things. And that’s partly because I’m a screenwriter and I’m looking for these kind of conflicts and interesting ideas and stuff like that. So take what I’m about to say with a grain of salt.

The Flat Earth Discussion

But the big one, the biggest conspiracy theory that freaks everybody out is flat Earth. Now, I don’t know what the Earth is, but experientially, through the testimony of the eyes, it is flat. And there is very little chance that I will ever, in my life, or most of us will ever, in our life, experience anything other than what is effectively a flat Earth.

And the way laser sighting across large bodies of water or navigation maps for air travel for pilots, is always a presumption of a flat Earth. It’s always in the pilot manuals and on and on.

JOE ROGAN: How so?

ROGER AVARY: Well, if you’re flying a jet at low altitude, you’re not making corrections for curvature even though you’re going fast enough where you should be. And so what’s actually happening there? Well, and so the idea is, look, I don’t know what the world is or what the realm that we’re in is, but experientially, from my perspective in life, it is nothing, but it’s a flat Earth.

JOE ROGAN: But what about travel routes? What about when they fly over Antarctica? What if they.

ROGER AVARY: Well, they don’t fly over.

JOE ROGAN: Well, you can watch the sun rise and fall.

ROGER AVARY: They don’t even fly from Cape Town to Buenos Aires.

JOE ROGAN: They understand the procession of the equinox.

ROGER AVARY: They travel up into the other hemisphere and land in London or something and then travel back down whenever you’re doing a flight across the Atlantic. And so when you look at it on a flat Earth map.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, but there’s satellite photographs of Earth from space.

ROGER AVARY: Those are all cartoons.

JOE ROGAN: What are you talking about?

ROGER AVARY: I’m saying that even the NASA, the guys who actually do those composites, those are composite imagery of. Listen, I’m not. I am not saying that, but it.

JOE ROGAN: Seems like you’re saying the Earth is possibly flat.

ROGER AVARY: I’m saying experientially.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but that’s a scary, it’s a scale issue though.

ROGER AVARY: Correct.

JOE ROGAN: We’re a tiny little thing on an enormous thing.

ROGER AVARY: Correct.

JOE ROGAN: But you know, snipers have to calculate for the curvature of the Earth when they shoot.

ROGER AVARY: Only the curvature of the landscape that they’re on.

JOE ROGAN: Right. Why do you think the landscape curves?

ROGER AVARY: The landscape doesn’t curve. It is a mountainous and uneven.

JOE ROGAN: Not always, no. On flat plains you have done the same thing. Well, you’re making a long shot over a flat area, like if you had a shoot.

ROGER AVARY: Well, then why don’t pilots make adjustments?

JOE ROGAN: I’m not a pilot. I don’t know. But I do know that when you.

ROGER AVARY: Look at the navigation maps, always film from the space station presume a flat Earth.

JOE ROGAN: When you look at the film from the space station, you see an Earth that’s not just round, but spinning.

ROGER AVARY: I see what I actually. The space station, the International Space Station is actually not high enough to see curvature. And what you’re seeing is lens distortion.

JOE ROGAN: And it’s not high enough to see curvature.

ROGER AVARY: When you look out into the horizon, it’s actually even like it’s very, very close to the.

The Shape of Earth and Space

JOE ROGAN: Let’s look at footage from the space station of Earth. So when you see satellite images that are taken of the Earth, you think they’re lying. You think there’s this grand conspiracy to piece all these pictures together and turn it into a circle instead of having flies.

ROGER AVARY: That’s the fundamental conspiracy theory that unravels everyone. And well, it doesn’t make sense because.

JOE ROGAN: Everything that we see in the cosmos that’s a planetary body is round, including stars. So it’s all round. Except for small moons, everything is round. And that’s because I’m not even.

ROGER AVARY: I’m not even certain that space exists. Well, that the moon is anything more than a planet. Plasma.

JOE ROGAN: A plasma, yeah. What does that mean?

ROGER AVARY: That it’s a plasma effect, a lenticular effect of some kind.

JOE ROGAN: So that it’s not a real thing, but it affects the tides. It is something that we have landed at the very least. We’ve landed probes.

ROGER AVARY: We don’t know. People theorize this is that it affects.

JOE ROGAN: The tide footage from the space station. This is live footage from the space station.

ROGER AVARY: And I’m saying that. And I’m saying that’s lens curvature and that what you’re actually seeing.

JOE ROGAN: Why do you think that’s lens.

ROGER AVARY: What you’re seeing is horizon.

JOE ROGAN: So what you’re talking about is like.

ROGER AVARY: If I’m trying to provoke you. That’s what I’m saying.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but let’s not do that right now because I don’t want you to be completely insane because this is a round body, just like the moon, just like Mars, just like Jupiter, just like Uranus.

ROGER AVARY: That appear.

JOE ROGAN: Ones.

ROGER AVARY: That appears to be a. But in your practical life experience, you have to accept a certain amount of faith. But this is what I’m getting at. At any moment.

JOE ROGAN: But they understand the procession of the equinox. Okay. Do you know that the procession of the ignorance is how they measure the sky over a period of 26,000 years?

ROGER AVARY: I see right there a little stitching, like right there.

JOE ROGAN: I just said this would just keep going straight forever.

ROGER AVARY: Do you see that line? Do you see that line right there?

JOE ROGAN: What is that? What is that line?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, what is that line? Well, that looks like stitching to me. It looks like they’ve stitched together. And it crosses over there through that mountain range right there.

JOE ROGAN: That is weird, whatever that is.

ROGER AVARY: So for your, by your very example, I’m just saying that you have to have a certain amount of faith in that. And on the surface. Mundus vault decipi.

JOE ROGAN: Well, okay, okay, you’re freaking me out. Go back. Go back to that, Jamie. So what is the explanation. Go back a little bit.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, what is the explanation of that line right there?

JOE ROGAN: Right, but how weird is that? That is weird that there’s this line.

ROGER AVARY: Right? Because that in itself is a composite image, a cartoon that has been put together for you to look at. This apparent live imagery.

JOE ROGAN: And is this multiple images that are supposedly pieced together? Is that what they’re.

ROGER AVARY: I’m saying that things fall into, like the way perspective works is that things appear to fall into the horizon. But now you use a, what is that camera? Is it a P200 camera that, where you can actually zoom in and lift things out of the horizon that have appeared to fall into the horizon.

JOE ROGAN: This live video. This live video feed from the International Space Station has been interrupted because.

ROGER AVARY: Because you’re watching too much.

JOE ROGAN: Due to either a change in the onboard camera configuration or loss of signal with the communications network. The video return when the connection is re-established. So this is during the live feed. This isn’t from NASA’s YouTube channel. It’s just down right now. It’s just down right now. Okay, so you’re saying that this is like a fisheye effect of a lens? Yeah, I’m saying potentially.

ROGER AVARY: I’m saying that. And that we can even see that whenever they’re up there shooting with cameras outside. You’re like, oh, there’s the curvature. And then every now and then the camera turns and it inverts for a moment, then it goes back down.

JOE ROGAN: I’ve never seen that.

ROGER AVARY: I watch a lot of NASA stuff and listen, I’m not saying that we’re not living on a globe or at least an oblate spheroid, as Neil Degrasse Tyson says, but have you ever noticed how spasticated that guy gets whenever you throw out the word flat earth? He flips out. Like the way Robert De Niro flips out on like irrationally. He flips out.

JOE ROGAN: He flips out. When you say that men can’t be women, which is very weird.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: And that they should be able to compete in women’s sports, which is very weird. Like a map for a man of science. That’s bonkers.

ROGER AVARY: Or that they should be able to go to jail and that a sex offender.

JOE ROGAN: F*ing insane. Not just that, but rapists.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. Like people have put in jail women.

JOE ROGAN: And then they have to pay for their election. Electrolysis and breast augmentation, which is okay. At what point in time do you say that this is some sort of a bizarre agenda? That you’re trying to get us to accept something that doesn’t make any f*ing sense. So much so that you’re willing to house male prisoners in with females because they say they’re a male with an intact penis. And then even after they get like female prisoners pregnant or rape them, we’re.

Reality and Consensus

ROGER AVARY: All just trying to constrain what reality is. And it tends to be a consensus of what it is. But you know, there are fringes that on the ends that don’t believe with what the consensus says. Are they wrong?

JOE ROGAN: But do you know how many people would have to be involved to promulgate this idea that there’s a flat Earth and you got to cover up that thing and pretend it’s round. And what’s the motivation of covering up the fact that the Earth is flat?

ROGER AVARY: I mean, if we’re really fundamentally getting down to it, it’s about God and it’s about what is this realm that we’re in and are we part of creation? And you know, but why would it.

JOE ROGAN: Be more likely if it was flat?

ROGER AVARY: Every culture throughout recorded history draws us in this kind of flat earthish environment with a dome, a firmament that covers it up until like when, the 1930s or something.

JOE ROGAN: Right. When they start making telescopes.

ROGER AVARY: Well, and.

JOE ROGAN: Right. I mean, so this is a grand conspiracy like Galileo was wrong, Copernicus was.

ROGER AVARY: Wrong, all these people, all of recorded history is wrong. And I mean the other option is that we are just specks of nothing floating around in an endless vast nothing that goes on forever. And that you are completely insignificant. That you are not God’s perfect creation, which I think you are.

JOE ROGAN: Well, that doesn’t. They’re not mutually exclusive. You know, just because we are in this vast cosmos that’s almost impossible for mammal minds to grasp the magnitude of it, doesn’t mean that God’s not real.

ROGER AVARY: It’s exclusive to people who believe the Bible word for word. I’m not saying I do necessarily. I would be considered apostate by most, by most people.

The Bible and Translation

JOE ROGAN: I’ve been reading the Bible a lot and one of the problems that I find is it’s clearly got the hand of man on it.

ROGER AVARY: Well, it’s been edited. Yes, it’s been edited. You know, the King James or who was King James, he wrote Bible. He wrote books on demon. Non demons as well. And so.

JOE ROGAN: Well, even the Old Testament. The Old Testament has the hand of man on it. Not just that, but it’s also been translated so many different times. Like ancient Hebrew, the letters double as numbers. There’s no numbers in ancient Hebrew. So words have numerical value to them. And you know, imagine translating such a complex language where like the word God and the word love, they have the same numerical value. I believe I read. Here’s another thing I’ve read that I don’t know if it’s true. So let me find out if that’s true. Put that into perplexity.

ROGER AVARY: There’s a lot of weird stuff in the Bible. In Genesis, when the Nephilim come down and they find women comely and so they like, okay, what’s actually going on there? These angels or Nephilim are coming down and they’re taking women from men and having sex with them and then creating, you know, hybrid offspring.

JOE ROGAN: When Representative Anna Paulina Luna was here, she told me about the Book of Enoch. She says you have to read that. Have you ever read it? I go, no. So I read it.

ROGER AVARY: Have you seen the Carpenter Son, the Nicholas Cage movie?

JOE ROGAN: No.

ROGER AVARY: Incredible.

JOE ROGAN: What did I just have you look up though, before I lose my train of thought, King James Bible thing. What? That’s what I was trying to ask specifically which part did you ask about? No, what I, what I asked you was ancient Hebrew. So the letters also double those numbers.

ROGER AVARY: That’s what the movie PI is all about.

JOE ROGAN: And that the Word, love and the word God have the same numerical value. I’m very, very certain that that’s true, but I want to really double check.

Numerology and Mathematics

ROGER AVARY: Numerology exists around us everywhere, and, you know, everything. It seems to have a kind of. And that’s what the Aronofsky film Pie was kind of all about. Is that.

JOE ROGAN: That was a great movie.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, it’s a very.

JOE ROGAN: There was also.

ROGER AVARY: He’s a very interesting film.

JOE ROGAN: A really fascinating statement by this mathematician. We talked about it on a recent podcast, was that, how strange is it that we find out that the universe is made out of math and that it’s encoded in the universe itself. So a tool that we used that human beings created to measure the universe, it turns out that that tool is how the universe is actually encoded.

ROGER AVARY: Well, this gets back to what Elon is saying about the world being a simulation. You know, I mean, what is a simulation? So it says.

JOE ROGAN: No, in ancient Hebrew, whatever that word is Gematria, no direct name of God shares the exact same numerical value as the word for love. So what is the basis of that rumor? Sacred name equals 26. A name for God equals 86.

ROGER AVARY: Okay.

JOE ROGAN: Is there a word for God, Elohim. Does that have the same.

ROGER AVARY: It’s a name, right?

JOE ROGAN: What is the value of. Click on that. Below that. Below that, where it says. What is the gematrik?

ROGER AVARY: What’s that word?

JOE ROGAN: I had to look it up.

ROGER AVARY: It’s gematria. Gematria.

JOE ROGAN: Primary Jewish mystic. Oh, Kabbalah. Religious studies to define hidden spiritual meanings in sacred texts. Okay. It is fascinating, though, that there’s numerical value in words. Like, there’s no way you’re going to get that when you translate it to Latin. So that is a.

ROGER AVARY: Or Greek.

JOE ROGAN: That is a value of 86. And what is love’s value? What is the value. What is the ancient Hebrew word for love? What is the ancient Hebrew word for love? That’s going to. What you mean by love is going to be very. You have to say, do you mean like love between two people? Okay, what is the geometry? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s a good point. That’s a good point. I have different words for it, definitely. So what is that? Click on that. What’s the gematria value of Avala? Right there. Right there. Yeah. Click that. It’s 13. So that’s a different number, too. Interesting. 13 twice equals 26. The value of Yahweh.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. Huh. This movie, the Carpenter’s Son is all about the infancy of Jesus, I think is written by Matthew, and it’s Part of these. I mean, I may have this wrong, but Coptic texts. And it is like Nicolas Cage is so good in this movie.

The Numerical Mysticism of Ancient Hebrew

JOE ROGAN: So twice 13 equals 26. The value of Yahweh, implying love mirrors or completes God’s essence. Okay, so that’s where that comes from. I was going to ask where it came from. Right, that’s where it comes from. So God is love. So love twice is God.

So here’s a question. What happened? So go. I understand. I understand. Go to ask a follow up.

ROGER AVARY: So.

JOE ROGAN: How was the numerical value of ancient Hebrew language lost when they translated it to Latin to Greek, but to Greek first?

ROGER AVARY: Right.

JOE ROGAN: How is the numerical value of ancient Hebrew words, numerical value of ancient Hebrew words lost when they translated it to Greek? Because it seems like if the, it’s not just context, like, what is your word for that? Like, the word meant a different thing to them, you know?

Numerical values of ancient Hebrew words calculated via gematria, where letters double as numbers, was not preserved in Greek translations. Hebrew letters inherently carry fixed numerical values, enabling word sums. Greek letters have their own values. Equivalents rarely match Hebrew sums exactly. So you’re going to lose it. Like, you know, when you read, like, Russian translations of English or English to Russian, it gets like, super screwy.

ROGER AVARY: For sure. For sure.

JOE ROGAN: Is this for sure?

ROGER AVARY: Like real ancient Spanish? Cervantes. Incredibly devoted.

JOE ROGAN: Difficult even.

ROGER AVARY: Gematria.

JOE ROGAN: All words mean another number that all have some sort of secret meaning.

ROGER AVARY: Runic writing from the Nordics is the same thing. And there is a striking resemblance between many of the runes with Hebrew. And so these ideas and these glyphs and symbols that Odin first saw while hanging upside down from the tree and learned language and how to speak are somewhat universal across the planet.

JOE ROGAN: Let’s get to that for a second. But let’s find out what Jamie’s saying. Primarily used in Jewish mysticism and religious studies to find hidden spiritual meanings in sacred texts like Torah. By assigning numerical values to Hebrew letters and words, revealing connections between concepts and exploring the universe’s underlying structure.

What’s interesting is, like, it’s an older language, but doesn’t that seem like a more complex language? A language that combines numerical value with words? Like, if you said something to me, it’s not just implied by your tone or by the context of what you’re saying, that I understand what it means to you, but it’s in the numerical value of the words.

That seems like a better way to communicate than just nouns and verbs and adverbs, rather than bifurcating numbers and letters together. Sounds like a way better move. I mean, doesn’t it? It seems like if you can understand that and if you grew up with that, that seems like that would be a much richer and deeper way of communicating.

Language, Numbers, and Cultural Understanding

ROGER AVARY: Isaac Asimov wrote a book called Asimov on Numbers, which is fantastic, which talks about this. And he talks about Kalahari Bushmen who have no concept of the number zero and how they process and understand concepts, like when no one is around, you know, if the village is empty and things like that. And so, you know, just different people are just trying to figure out how to articulate everything. And, you know, computer programming is a language that utilizes numbers.

JOE ROGAN: It’s weird when there’s, like, certain languages that don’t have a word for something, so people really grasp. They have a hard time grasping.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: What the f* you’re trying to say. Yeah, like, what’s the translation for this? Like, we don’t have a word for that.

ROGER AVARY: We don’t. We don’t understand the concept of empathy.

JOE ROGAN: But there’s certain cultures that are like tribal cultures that can’t understand the concept of maintenance.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

JOE ROGAN: They don’t have that.

ROGER AVARY: I’ve heard that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Which is weird. Like, you think about it, like, oh, right.

ROGER AVARY: Why would they need maintenance?

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: Why would they need maintenance?

JOE ROGAN: If you live a subsistence lifestyle, you live off the land, you don’t need maintenance.

ROGER AVARY: And then suddenly you’re thrust into the 21st century and Chinese are building highways.

JOE ROGAN: For you and collapse.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. And the highways has collapsed because no one’s maintaining it.

JOE ROGAN: Right. Yeah. It’s interesting. But it’s.

ROGER AVARY: It’s interesting pulling people out of the Stone Age and dropping them into, or maybe the Iron Age or, and dropping them suddenly.

Missing Time and Historical Anomalies

JOE ROGAN: To take this back to this idea that we’re missing a thousand years. So if we really are missing this one, that there’s two things. I want to get, I want to get to that. And I added a thousand, a thousand years. I really want to get to that. And, well, the, meant by missing. Like, they don’t, they don’t exist in the real world.

ROGER AVARY: Right.

JOE ROGAN: I want to get to that. And I want to get to, is there a conventional explanation for that stitching? Why that image? Like, what is the mainstream. I got to dig up what, that, what we’re even looking at. I don’t know. Right.

ROGER AVARY: I don’t.

JOE ROGAN: It was not the NASA channel we were looking at. I don’t. You know, I can dig down that rabbit hole. What were we looking at? I don’t. I tried to pick up a video of Live.

ROGER AVARY: You know, the globe imagery that.

JOE ROGAN: Hold on a second. So that image might not have been an official image. That might have been something that someone created. I’m not saying that. Well, let me retract. So words aren’t taken out of context. I’m just saying it was, it seemed like a live video. It was live on YouTube. Oh, but it could have been AI. Yeah. I have to go back to look at the, right try. I’m working fast over here.

No, I get it, dog. I get it. That’s why, Jamie, you do the job of 15 dudes. So I appreciate a video from 11 years ago on Vimeo that is from SpaceX. So it’s not NASA, it’s someone else. And it’s like it’s up and down of the rocket. You can argue all day that it’s got curvature. It doesn’t have curvature.

Rocket Launches and Earth’s Curvature

ROGER AVARY: When you see a rocket launch, what does it do? It goes kind of sideways across the sky. And so, like, we’ve now seen that, you know, pretty regularly. And that’s because they’re really not going above the troposphere, which.

JOE ROGAN: Well, I watched this. I watched the Space X launch live. I was there. It went straight up in the air.

ROGER AVARY: And then it curves and it travels sideways across the sky.

JOE ROGAN: Well, it meets the horizon orbit. And then it traveled and dropped off in Australia. 35 minutes later, I went out of your view. No, I watched the entire thing from the command center. I watched it from like 24 different cameras.

ROGER AVARY: But how high did it, did it go above the troposphere? Not likely.

JOE ROGAN: Like, this is not above the troposphere.

ROGER AVARY: This is like.

JOE ROGAN: How many miles is that up?

ROGER AVARY: This is low Earth orbit. Where.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but at low Earth orbit. Jesus Christ. That looks like a globe, huh?

ROGER AVARY: But watch as the camera rotates. Just.

JOE ROGAN: This is also an edited video.

ROGER AVARY: I don’t want to get stuck in this. Right, right. Like this. As Elon would say, it’s real because it looks fake. Or when it looks fake, that’s when you know it’s real.

JOE ROGAN: Say that about Bigfoot. Then Bigfoot looks fake as f*. And it’s definitely not real. You know what’s real? That Turkish sharpshooter. That dude was a G up in the corner. Press play. See what this is supposed to be. It cuts. Yeah, okay. Oh, I see. I see. So it cuts a bunch of different.

ROGER AVARY: Now you can actually see an inversion occurring on the, on the horizon right there.

JOE ROGAN: A small piece of it.

ROGER AVARY: Correct. But the lens distortion on the side of the frame is causing the horizon there to go the opposite to invert. And that’s because of lens distortion. Distortion.

JOE ROGAN: I see what you’re saying.

ROGER AVARY: And the fact of the matter is, even at the height, even at the height that these are orbiting at, and I’m not saying like presuming, presuming a globular planet and even the word planet, plane, it’s like a plane at, you know, or the horizon is horizontal. Like, you know, even presuming that the height that they’re at right now, you would still only see, you know, a circular. See the limit of your vision, which has a.

JOE ROGAN: Because it’s so massive.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, which is, because it’s so massive, you’re still high enough. Well, you’re still not high enough to truly see curvature.

Consciousness, Reality, and Gravity

JOE ROGAN: If we are in a simulation and if consciousness, it affects the reality of things and they are only real if we are experiencing them, that’s when things get really squirrely.

ROGER AVARY: The testimony of your eyes, like I know that I am here right now.

JOE ROGAN: Not just the testimony of your eyes, but your consciousness interacting with reality is what creates it.

ROGER AVARY: Correct.

JOE ROGAN: I mean that’s, that’s where things get super.

ROGER AVARY: How do you know gravity exists, for example?

JOE ROGAN: Well, gravity is not clearly defined.

ROGER AVARY: Correct.

JOE ROGAN: We understand the numbers.

ROGER AVARY: Gravity is a concept and it’s a non, truly non provable concept. Because you can prove the exact same thing through density and buoyancy. You know, the density and buoyancy, you know, make a lot of how come the oceans, you know, react the way they do and don’t, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not necessarily provable, but it’s believable.

You come to a certain point where you’re like, okay, faith takes over at this point. My faith in that, in gravity, my faith in the globe. Because that’s what’s been told to me since I was a baby. At a certain point that just takes over.

JOE ROGAN: Not just that.

ROGER AVARY: And you accept that as a fundamental piece of what reality is. Because we want to believe we understand the universe. What I’m saying is we don’t understand jack s* about the universe. We don’t know anything. And all we do is we believe what they tell us.

And they is just the, the cumulative understanding of how things are. But in ancient times they had a different understanding of things and that was how it was back then. And so because they had no other way to describe. Right.

JOE ROGAN: But even then, the reality is just built things based on where the sun was going to be during the solar equinox. They also were aware of the procession of the Equinoxes which is the wobble of Earth’s orbit. So Earth spinning around doesn’t spin perfectly. There is a 26,000 year wobble. You can predict it by the night sky.

The Precession of the Equinoxes

ROGER AVARY: Somehow Polaris remains centered in the sky and all stars rotate around it. That’s extraordinary if we’re traveling.

JOE ROGAN: What do you mean? So during the precession of the equinoxes over a 26,000 year cycle, Polaris it has remained.

ROGER AVARY: Exactly. And supposedly that’s because that’s where we’re flying towards as a solar system. As we travel through the galaxy in.

JOE ROGAN: This dance of planet Earth equinoxes, this wobble, over a 26,000 year period, it will move in the sky.

ROGER AVARY: Well, the point of Polaris will always remain where it is, directly the point.

JOE ROGAN: But our perspective of it will vary depending upon where we are in this 26,000 year cycle.

ROGER AVARY: It undergoes a kind of penumbra of sort, a kind of motion of sorts. A figure 8.

JOE ROGAN: It changes. It changes. Look at it says right here, due to the 26,000 year axial precession cycle, the North Star changes over millennia. While Polaris is the current North Star, other stars have held this position, including Thuban 3000 BC and future stars will include Arai, Aldermane, Alderman and Vega.

So it’s not the same star. It’s just what is dependent upon where we are in the procession of the equinoxes. That’s why. Well, there’s not, not that the Earth is flat, I.

ROGER AVARY: Know it’s true because it’s on Google.

JOE ROGAN: But it’s not just that we know where they, they’ve been able to accurately predict the motion of the procession, the equinoxes, based on the constellations which are clearly mapped out. So we understand this wobble, and this wobble may be responsible for cycles of Earth’s climate. How things change and be dependent upon where the equator sits and where these poles sit and how it wiggles around.

ROGER AVARY: When we were younger, the sun was kind of yellow and orange and now it’s just like white. Like reality is changing. I mean, things change.

JOE ROGAN: The sun looks exactly the same to me.

ROGER AVARY: You think the sun is the same? To me it’s—

JOE ROGAN: I think pollution has affected it somewhat, especially if you live in LA.

ROGER AVARY: Well, there used to be more pollution and so maybe that’s an excuse of why the sun would be more yellow. But I’ve lived all over the world.

The Epstein Gravity Discussion

JOE ROGAN: Did you see Epstein talking about gravity? Oh boy.

ROGER AVARY: Oh, here we go. Here we go.

JOE ROGAN: It’s not—I don’t know, it’s very—I’ll just say. What does he have to say? It’s fine. It’s only 45 seconds.

VIDEO CLIP BEGINS:

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: I just let it go. So someone’s pushing the ball. Because I know that I am confident that the only thing that gets something to move is with a force that pushes. So there’s a force that’s pushing the ball down, in fact.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That’s cool.

JEFFREY EPSTEIN: He called it gravity. He measured how fast it was pulled, but never was able to explain why it happened. How is it—what is gravity? It’s this. Everybody says, well, why did the ball fall to the ground? Because gravity took it. But what’s gravity? That’s, as Feynman would say, that’s the name of the thing. We have no idea what it is.

VIDEO CLIP ENDS:

ROGER AVARY: That’s the end of that clip. Or it’s just density and buoyancy.

JOE ROGAN: He was really into this topic, apparently. Apparently he knew a lot about it.

The Flat Earth Debate

ROGER AVARY: You know who you should have on is Eric Dubay. Do you know who this guy is?

JOE ROGAN: Oh, he’s a flat Earth guy.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, he’s the flat earth guy. And he’s written a book called “A Hundred Proofs.” And in order to prove something, you also have to prove things wrong.

JOE ROGAN: You went down some rabbit holes?

ROGER AVARY: Well, I—look, I’m a screenwriter, and so I’m always looking for things like this to write stuff about. And so it’s—

JOE ROGAN: So in order to prove it all, I take it. In order to prove what?

ROGER AVARY: Whenever you have a proof, you also have to disprove. And so, you know, he wrote a book called “100 Proofs” about the nature of the Earth and how it is. And it has explanations for many of the things you’re talking about.

JOE ROGAN: Hasn’t he debated people that actually understand how you could prove that the earth is round?

ROGER AVARY: He does it very calmly and it infuriates people.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But I don’t think it’s done well.

ROGER AVARY: It’s very enjoyable to watch because it’s really funny.

JOE ROGAN: But to people that are actual cosmologists, he’s not performed well in these.

ROGER AVARY: Well, the cosmologists will say things that still need to be—if you’re making statements, they still need to be—you still need to disprove the other proofs.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But there’s plenty of people that have disproven that the Earth is flat.

ROGER AVARY: I would say the Joe Rogan experience throughout life—you are really like when you go up into an airplane, I do not see the curvature of the Earth.

JOE ROGAN: Well, you can’t because of perspective. Because you’re so tiny.

ROGER AVARY: Correct, because we’re so tiny. So all I’m saying is that through experience, the testimony of your eyes, you will never experience a globular Earth. You can’t.

JOE ROGAN: But you do experience of a Earth that’s a globe. If you go to the other side of the Earth and it’s dark out when it’s sunny in California—

ROGER AVARY: They’ve made models of how that could work on the—

JOE ROGAN: Dorks have.

ROGER AVARY: Dorks have made models.

JOE ROGAN: But it doesn’t line in with our understanding of cosmology. It doesn’t line in with our understanding of our orbit around the sun.

ROGER AVARY: That’s assuming you believe that we orbit around the sun. And listen, I’m not saying that we don’t orbit around the sun, but if you live on a globular Earth—

JOE ROGAN: But the numbers—

ROGER AVARY: Don’t get me wrong.

JOE ROGAN: But the numbers match. If you do assume that they’re correct, that we orbit around the sun.

ROGER AVARY: But their calculations, if they make the calculations on their flat Earth model as well, then you still have to prove that wrong. Right.

JOE ROGAN: But is doing that, is MIT, NASA—

ROGER AVARY: Of all people to believe the ones who are digitally stitching and saying that’s a—that’s a government agency.

JOE ROGAN: You went so deep with this boy.

ROGER AVARY: I know. All I’m saying is my experience, you know, when I get on the plane later today and I’m flying back and I look out outside, I’m going to see a flat, you know, a flat horizon, a horizontal horizon before me. And when I land, everything else is faith based. Well, that’s all I’m saying.

JOE ROGAN: It’s not though. It’s science based. It’s based on data.

ROGER AVARY: It’s based on our science. Science means observation.

JOE ROGAN: It means testimony, which I’m talking about the measurement data.

ROGER AVARY: That data is so far removed from my ability to understand.

JOE ROGAN: But you must understand the circumference of the Earth. Right. You can understand the numbers. And the numbers line up exactly with how much time it would take for the Earth to go around in a day.

ROGER AVARY: Sure. And it works. And what other experiment can you show me where water clings to a spinning ball? Like that’s kind of the classic flat Earther thing that they’ll ask you. Well, show me any other example of that.

JOE ROGAN: 24,000 miles wide.

ROGER AVARY: And the answer to that is gravity. And what he’s talking about in that clip that you just showed is gravity is just sort of this idea that we came up with to justify that.

JOE ROGAN: But there’s clearly a force that does that.

ROGER AVARY: That’s density.

JOE ROGAN: Just density?

ROGER AVARY: There’s—yeah, density.

JOE ROGAN: Well, then how come these two things will fall at the same time if I drop them when this is far heavier? How come?

ROGER AVARY: I do not have an answer for that.

JOE ROGAN: Right, but gravity does. Right?

ROGER AVARY: Gravity is—like he said, it’s just a measurement. It’s a measurement of how things fall. Right. But that measurement and the word that they invented, gravity, is just an explanation for how objects are pulled downward.

JOE ROGAN: Right. But those objects, how come if it was just density, wouldn’t a heavier object drop faster?

ROGER AVARY: Well, when a—

JOE ROGAN: There’s two balls, there’s a bowling ball and feathers dropping in a vacuum, and they’re falling at the exact same time. How weird. Vacuum. No, density. They both fall at the same time because of gravity or whatever the force we call gravity is. But there is some sort of a force that we call gravity that could be measured in a vacuum.

ROGER AVARY: Look how excited they all are.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. Brian Cox would be pissed. If he was here right now, he’d be—

ROGER AVARY: Oh, no. He’d be—I’m not—listen. I’m not—all I’m saying is that my experience in the world—

JOE ROGAN: Of course, but your experience is based on perspective of being a tiny little thing on an enormous thing.

ROGER AVARY: Correct? Yeah, that is correct. Yeah, that is correct.

JOE ROGAN: A few YouTube channels that have broken down all of those flat Earth ideas a ton. Go watch those. I tried years ago and I gave up.

ROGER AVARY: It is absolutely a rabbit hole. But what’s interesting about it is that if you extract the faith that you have in these kind of ideas and you supplement it with the faith of these other ideas, they’re exchangeable.

JOE ROGAN: They’re only exchangeable if you don’t understand the data and if you don’t understand what’s actually been measured, or if you don’t understand the path of satellites, or if you don’t understand how many different people would have had to lie about this s* and not achieve the same observational results that all these different space agencies have, that the idea that they’re all in collusion, that Japan and India and even countries that hate each other, they’re all in collusion on this lie that the Earth is round.

Well, it seems much more likely that there’s a bunch of people with schizophrenia that think that the Earth is flat. And they make these YouTube videos where they’re very compelling because they’re articulate and they use great words and they say it all in a nice way without being challenged by real facts along the way by someone who actually has studied this their whole life.

ROGER AVARY: Right. I still saw digital stitching on your example.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it wasn’t my example. It was some s* Jamie randomly pulled offline. That was weird though. And that’s perfect for this world that we live in to have sort of a glitch like that.

The Nature of Evil

ROGER AVARY: But that’s kind of what I’m getting at is there’s so much out there that it just falls to faith. And also, what does it really matter? That’s kind of what I’m getting at ultimately is what is all of that really matter? What does it matter to anybody that there’s a cabal of 8,000 plus people who are secretly controlling the world and doing occultism and drinking baby blood? What is it doesn’t matter as long as you can—

JOE ROGAN: This is a very different subject now. We’ve shifted. You’ve moved away from the concept of the earth being flat. And it’s a giant lie that’s promoted by a huge group of people that aren’t even connected in any way, shape or form to evil people that are involved in cult like rituals which has, by the way, always existed.

And this is why it’s very difficult for people to imagine today that some of the things that you’re hearing from the Epstein—like the potential that they were eating children or killing children or that they used that sulfuric acid to boil bodies. We don’t want to believe in evil that is that deep. But in my opinion, if you can find out that evil is real, right? Evil most certainly is real. There’s evil acts that we have documented all throughout the world. There’s evil that the cartel does.

I just watched a video where the cartel chopped this guy’s head off and put it on a drone and flew it over to where the other cartel was.

ROGER AVARY: They probably thought that was funny. They probably thought we did. It was funny.

JOE ROGAN: Having a good time. That’s clearly evil. There’s plenty of demons.

ROGER AVARY: Do you believe in demons?

JOE ROGAN: I believe in the concept of demons.

ROGER AVARY: I mean, demons don’t materialize before us necessarily. They rest upon the shoulders of men and whisper into their ears. I believe people do evil things.

JOE ROGAN: This is what I believe. I believe that if I was a demon or if demons were real, they would get people to do things which are verifiably true that they have done. If you were a demonic idea. And you got into Oppenheimer’s head or Patton’s head or anybody’s, and you wanted them to do something horrific to a bunch of innocent people. And you could say, this is because we’re at war, so we’re going to drop a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

Like that’s a demonic act. It’s a demonic act of eliminating hundreds of thousands or a hundred thousand plus people off the face of the earth who did nothing. They’re just citizens that are unfortunately involved in a country that is in a conflict with some people that they don’t even know. And then they just got vaporized like that. That seems demonic. You’ve just expired.

ROGER AVARY: But there are people who would argue that—there are people who would argue that the war would have continued. And I’ve heard this argument, I’ve heard that argument too, that the war would have continued and so many more would have died.

JOE ROGAN: Well, if I was a demon, I would want to propagate that idea. I would want you to think that you have to do it.

ROGER AVARY: And so is evil justification of things?

Engineering Viruses and Global Conspiracies

JOE ROGAN: Certainly, if actions. If you wanted to find a way where a demon, just like, assume that demons are real, how would demons best be able to enact demonic things on earth? Would they do it by saying, I’m a demon and you know, this is what you should do, and this is horrible and evil. Or would you creep into someone’s head and find justifications for doing a demonic thing? Like, there’s a lot of things, like, clear.

ROGER AVARY: Well, you would creep into someone’s head, right? And you would, you know, you would boil the frog slowly.

JOE ROGAN: Like, let’s imagine this is the AIDS crisis. And you know that AZT is killing people, but you also know that you are making an insane amount of profit off of killing people with AZT. And you have already established a narrative, and Fauci said this publicly that the reason why they only prescribe AZT is AZT is the only thing that is both safe and effective. He literally used the same language that.

ROGER AVARY: He used during the course. He’s been doing this for a long time.

JOE ROGAN: He has. If I wanted, if I was a demon, I’d want to get in that guy’s head and I’d want to get him to keep doing it and say, look how much money they’re making. You got to keep this money. There’s a way to justify this. You’re the purveyor of information. You are the gatekeeper of the truth. You just find a way to dance around these numbers. You do not know what you are talking about. This is not gain of function.

I mean, think just what he did there that was evil. By taking a virus, funding it, even though it was illegal to fund it in the United States, by doing it through EcoHealth Alliance and then, you know, farming it out to them. They do it at the Wuhan lab. And you are in fact doing gain of function research on a virus designed for human beings to make it more deadly and more contagious. That’s demonic. You don’t have a cure.

The Canadian Lab Scandal

ROGER AVARY: There was a researcher in Canada at the Manitoba Level 4 lab. Dr. Qui, I think, is how you pronounce her name. And she was the one who solved Ebola. She had come up with the vaccine for Ebola, which is manufactured by a California company that is basically a Chinese company. And like a rock star, she had made, it was like a hit. She had a hit, a huge hit.

And just like a rock star, everybody’s asking you, what comes next? What comes next? And so she started actively working really, really hard at coming up with that next thing. And, you know, like most people, you don’t want to stand in line. And these level four labs, you know, they have to. Whenever you move your research from one lab to another, you have to go through all sorts of stuff in order to do that, because it’s all patented. All of these microbes and viruses and Ebola strains and whatnot, it’s all patented.

And so, for example, there was this one kid who was working at the lab in Canada and he was moving, I think, to the one in Atlanta. And so he was crossing the border and he didn’t want to have to reproduce all of his work. So he just put it into a thermos inside of a thing and tried to cross the border. And he got caught.

Well, she got caught in 2019 by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, basically moving stuff from Canada via Air Canada freight from Manitoba, from Winnipeg, this is the Winnipeg lab, to Wuhan. And they were moving everything. And I tracked where those. Because I was writing a screenplay about it. And so I tracked, where did that come from? Well, it’s the cutter, or maybe it was Abu Dhabi, I can’t remember the lab there. And then that went through. In order to get around, it got sent to the one in Amsterdam and that got sent to her. And she was able to do all this stuff.

And she was basically just shipping everything. Hanta and all these patented things to Wuhan, you know, in order to do it. And the Royal Canadian Mounted Police basically, you know, stopped it. And she got walked out of the laboratory and everything because they were like, is there a misappropriation of money going on here? Like, what are all these flights that are occurring?

And they redacted who her financer was, and we still don’t know who her financer was. But it’s one of three people, and it’s the people, you probably can guess, you know, these people who have an interest in this. But her thing was just ambition. It was just like anybody. She was just wanting to have that next hit. And she would do anything to do it. To repeat what she did with Ebola.

JOE ROGAN: So she was helping to engineer viruses.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, they were engineering stuff. And then she would ship them via Air Canada freight from Winnipeg directly to Wuhan on air. Literally on Air Canada flights. So you’re flying on Air Canada to Wuhan and down below in cargo. There’s all this, you know, some.

JOE ROGAN: That.

ROGER AVARY: And, yeah, some horrible strain of something. It’s something that’s patented, and then they’re just shipping it over to. And, you know, none of this has come out. Some papers in Canada, you know, like the Winnipeg Free Press or something, was trying to cover it, but, you know, it just gets kind of buried.

The Epstein Files and Pandemic Planning

JOE ROGAN: That was one of the weird things that I had also seen that I don’t know if it’s true in the Epstein files, that there was talk about engineering a pandemic.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah. Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: Was it? Did you.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, I read that, too. I read that, too. That they were actively working on it, running models and figuring it out. And, you know, well, if we do this, then this will happen. And, you know, they were pretty successful at that.

JOE ROGAN: But why would Epstein be involved if he’s a financier?

ROGER AVARY: He was involved in everything.

JOE ROGAN: Right?

ROGER AVARY: He was involved in everything. It was amazing. The energy that that guy had. Who has the energy to be doing all this stuff, all over the world and, oh, in Nigeria we’re doing this, and in Yemen we’re doing this, and here we’re doing that. And at the same time, trafficking all these girls and, you know, and young children and all this stuff.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: It has the energy to do that.

JOE ROGAN: It says no credible evidence in the recently released Epstein files links Jeffrey Epstein or his associates to engineering the COVID-19 pandemic. Claims stem from a misinterpreted 2017 email referencing routine pandemic preparedness discussions, not a plot. So what was the claim? The original go down. I didn’t ask it about COVID-19 also right, you just asked it about engineering a pandemic. So what is the pandemic claims? Scroll up a little so I can read that. That’s all. Scroll down a little. There it goes.

So 2017 email originally from 2015 discussions to Bill, widely assumed to be Gates, forwarded to Epstein proposed recommendations and technical specifications for pandemic modeling of various strains. It focused on healthcare data simulations for preparedness and neurotechnology, not creating or engineering a virus. Gates Foundation later ran Event 201 in 2019, a standard exercise with John Hopkins. And who, predating Covid, reports that whole Event 201 is f*ing weird. Event 201 is weird.

Context and debunking pandemic simulations are common public health tools for the. Like those for SARS or flu. Right, but why is Jeffrey Epstein involved in these discussions?

ROGER AVARY: Involved in everything. He’s involved in gravity.

JOE ROGAN: But how f*ing weird is that? How weird? A pandemic. A pandemic was reportedly mentioned in the Epstein files.

ROGER AVARY: Running the world. Running the world.

JOE ROGAN: Well, this is what my friend Eddie, creating the illusion.

ROGER AVARY: In the meantime, Ghislaine Maxwell is running the Reddit forum on world news. She’s literally shaping the world news Reddit forum.

JOE ROGAN: She was. She was running the world news forum on Reddit.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, she was. And it all went dark the minute she got picked up her person. But she was the main contributor, did thousands of posts, all day long posting world news, shaping our perceptions of things.

JOE ROGAN: One email was a subject preparing for pandemics was sent by a person whose name was redacted.

ROGER AVARY: By the way, the. Did you see that?

JOE ROGAN: Why would they redact the person who sent that? That’s not a victim. You’re supposed to redact.

ROGER AVARY: I think they just. They did, supposedly they just did massive redacting, but sometimes you can see, oh, the name is short, it’s probably Bill. And then the one that comes after that, if it’s a little longer, it might be Clinton. And if it’s a little shorter, it might be Gates. You know, like you could. But again, that’s just, you know, there’s no foundation. It’s plausible deniability until they release all these names. Did you notice that Jeffrey Epstein’s Fortnite account.

JOE ROGAN: Yes.

ROGER AVARY: Suddenly became active in Tel Aviv and that somebody is playing under his right after his supposed death.

JOE ROGAN: Right.

ROGER AVARY: Suddenly he’s playing Fortnite again?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah. He doesn’t even have the decency to make a new account.

ROGER AVARY: Well, he wants to keep all of his stats. Wants to keep all that stuff. Yeah, and he’s safe in, you know, in another country.

The Epstein Death Conspiracy

JOE ROGAN: So do you think they just did those. That’s another thing. There was another Reddit thread about some guy who said that he was a guard.

ROGER AVARY: It was a 4chan thread.

JOE ROGAN: It was a 4chan.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah.

JOE ROGAN: So it was a 4chan thread where this guy said that he was a guard at the facility and he posted this before Epstein was killed.

ROGER AVARY: He was a guard. They uncovered using whatever way they do it, but using phone records or whatever from 4chan, they discovered he was a guard and that he was a legit guy. He got caught basically talking about it that they snuck. They use a decoy body. There was an unscheduled ambulance arrival that night. They never logged in. And you’re always supposed to log in. There’s footage of, you know, orange, people in orange moving through the facility on the. You know, just glimpses of it.

JOE ROGAN: So you think he’s alive somewhere?

ROGER AVARY: It’s.

JOE ROGAN: It’s not possible.

ROGER AVARY: It’s not impossible. It’s probable.

JOE ROGAN: Also didn’t.

ROGER AVARY: It’s a probability.

JOE ROGAN: Whatever.

ROGER AVARY: It’s more than a possibility.

JOE ROGAN: The guy who did the autopsy, did anything happen to him? The guy who.

ROGER AVARY: He committed suicide?

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, let’s find that out. That would be f*ing crazy because that happened to the guy who did the autopsy on Andrew Breitbart. Didn’t he wind up dying shortly after that? Like Andrew Breitbart?

ROGER AVARY: Yes.

JOE ROGAN: And who’s the guy who said the pedestal?

ROGER AVARY: Alarming amount of people commit suicide.

JOE ROGAN: Alarming.

ROGER AVARY: Who are doing this stuff or die of something to do. So, yeah, suddenly they do it. I got people in jail who committed suicide, and they didn’t commit suicide. They got killed by their cellie. Nobody bothered checking in on that.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, that makes sense. The guy who did the autopsy for Jeffrey Epstein, did anything happen to him? It was a woman. A woman? Chief New York Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Barbara Sampson. And she just resigned, couple, like a year ago. Okay, so nothing happened to her.

ROGER AVARY: You’re talking about evil. You know who the devil was in the Exorcist?

JOE ROGAN: Who?

The Hidden Meaning Behind The Exorcist

ROGER AVARY: Well, they say it’s like Pazuzu and we’re presented with an actual devil. But when you actually watch the movie, there’s kind of evidence that, and people have talked about this, that there’s evidence within the film that it’s more than just demonic possession, that the demonic possession comes from someplace.

And by the way, Jeffrey Epstein was also funding research in how trauma affects clairvoyance and telepathy and things like that, how you’re able to invoke those out of trauma. And in The Exorcist, you have Reagan, who’s Linda Blair, and there’s that party scene. And you remember in The Exorcist, they’re making a movie within the movie. They’re actually shooting a movie. The character of the mother is acting in a film inside of the movie. And there’s a director in that film.

And they have a big party scene after it. And the director is basically yelling at the butler, her house man, calling him a Nazi and stuff like that. And he’s, “I bet you went bowling with Goebbels” and things like that. Well, for a while, he vanishes from the party. And we later see Reagan afterwards, completely flipped out, laying in bed. And then after that, she comes, and then he’s leaving the party, and he turns to the mother and he’s like, “I have to tell you something. I have to tell you something.” F* it. And he leaves.

JOE ROGAN: Leaves.

ROGER AVARY: And so, and then after that, Reagan comes down and she looks to the astronaut guy and says, “You’re going to die up there.” And then she pisses on the floor, and everybody’s like, shit. And from that moment on, there’s all this highly sexualized devil speaking through her with a British accent. And the guy, the director is a British guy.

And so the implication, and then he is, for some reason, left with Reagan and then gets thrown out of the balcony, and his head is twisted all the way around, and he dies as a character. So the implication is that the director is the one who has raped Reagan and thus invoking this demonic presence into her. And it turns out that I thought…

JOE ROGAN: I thought it was some totem that they found and it was possessed.

ROGER AVARY: All of that stuff is there. The Ouija board is there and everything. But it turns out that William Peter Blatty actually made a movie called John Goldfarb. Your life is blah, blah, blah. I can’t remember the exact title of the film. And he made that movie with Shirley MacLaine. And the director of the film is this guy, J. Lee Thompson, British director, who looks exactly like the actor in that.

And so the idea is that Reagan’s mother is Shirley MacLaine. And Reagan is her daughter, Sasha. And the British director is J. Lee Thompson. And we start looking at his movies. They’re a little strange. There’s like, he directed the original Cape Fear, and which has a kind of strange pedophilic thing going on in it.

JOE ROGAN: So does the second one.

ROGER AVARY: And, yeah, they all do. And then especially they amplify.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, with Julia, Robert De Niro.

ROGER AVARY: He did this movie, Kinjite, with Bronson, and that all has kind of a weird pedophilic thing. He did this movie, The Reincarnation of Peter Proud, where Peter Proud dies, and then, or rather, Peter Proud remembers his reincarnation. He remembers his iteration of his other self who was murdered. And then he hunts down the woman who maybe did it, and then starts sleeping with her daughter, which is basically sleeping with his daughter because he’s reincarnated.

So this guy, as a filmmaker, has done all. And so the question, and so William Peter Blatty worked on that film with Shirley MacLaine and shortly thereafter wrote the book The Exorcist. And Sasha, in her autobiography, even mentions, the person on the cover of the book looked a lot like me. Everybody’s just saying, oh, it’s just a coincidence. And, well, I never walked down the stairs on all fours, and I never vomited pea soup or whatever, that none of that ever happened to me.

But there’s a pretty dark implication behind the whole film. And I brought it up with William Friedkin. Hey, is this meant to be? J. Lee Thompson did this. Like, is this a way to talk about that that actually happened in real life? He said, “I cannot talk about that. But I’m not saying you’re wrong.”

JOE ROGAN: Whoa.

The Pizza Reference and Hidden Meanings

ROGER AVARY: And so, and there’s actually a moment where Reagan is talking to her mother, and she’s like, “Well, do you like him? Do you like him like you like Daddy?” And so there’s this idea that he’s been coming over and they’ve been having this affair. And then all of a sudden, she says to her daughter, and it kind of jumped out at me when I rewatched it. She says to her daughter, “Well, I like pizza, but I wouldn’t marry one.” And it was like, oh, my God, there’s a pizza reference in the middle of this, in the middle of everything that’s happening.

JOE ROGAN: How long is that? That’s peculiar, but Ben Swann brought up during the whole Pizzagate thing that got him fired. But how long has the term pizza been used?

ROGER AVARY: Well, it jumped out at me. And The Exorcist is in the early 70s. And so what is it, 1971. And that movie that he did with Shirley MacLaine, who is effectively, that’s the movie that’s shooting inside of the movie. And so this was a way for Peter Benchley, I mean, not Peter Benchley, William Peter Blatty, to kind of transcode all of that.

And the astronaut in the film, Shirley MacLaine talks about the, I can’t remember who was her husband or boyfriend that she remarried, who was an astronaut. And in her autobiography, she talks about how he was cloned. He came back from space a different person, that he was cloned. And she kind of, everybody kind of laughed it off. Like, oh, it was just kind of a joke that I wrote into my autobiography. But it’s kind of weird. Real weird.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s really strange.

ROGER AVARY: So people speak through movies and they hide information in films. And so I think that some more than others, right? William Peter Blatty, who was doing all sorts of Ouija stuff with Shirley MacLaine, who was really into that kind of thing back in the late 60s and early 70s. And he sits down to write his book and what’s he writing about? Well, he’s writing, that movie’s about Shirley MacLaine. Her daughter. Her daughter, Sasha. Sachi. I’m sorry, Sachi.

And the astronaut. And it’s all, and J. Lee Thompson, who basically he eviscerates within the film, but in a way that nobody really connects. It all happens off camera. But the implication is that she was raped by that director. And from that moment on has a kind of, she’s speaking with a British accent as the devil. It’s his voice, actually, that’s coming out of her. She’s talking about being raped by a crucifix.

JOE ROGAN: That actor, that’s his voice. Is that what you’re saying?

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It’s like the voice of Ed, I think his name is McGowan. And he died shortly after the film was made. Also shortly after The Exorcist was made.

JOE ROGAN: Well, we know that people have encoded very bizarre things. Like, Kubrick was famous for it.

Movies as Magic Spells

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, well, that’s Kubrick. Everybody does it. I do it. Everybody does it. I mean, motion pictures are a kind of magic spell. And when you write, you’re hearing, I hear voices and they come through me and they land on the page and I don’t know where they come from, but it is a kind of invite to possession and that these things come into you and that you put it on the page and then you make this movie.

And everybody, like I said, sits in a theater in the dark watching a flicker of this thing. And it’s telling you both our myths and traditions, but it’s also predictive programming. Everybody. And so, Jesus, dude, have you seen?

JOE ROGAN: Have I seen what?

ROGER AVARY: Well, actually I was thinking about like that where the Daily Wire thing. But media comes from a lot of different places now. We, you don’t know where you’re going to find your next entertainment, right? And there’s this show that I really like that, that show Rome. Did you see Rome?

JOE ROGAN: No, I never saw it.

ROGER AVARY: Okay. I loved Rome. It was…

JOE ROGAN: I watched the first episode and I thought it was flat.

The Chosen: A Modern Take on the Gospels

ROGER AVARY: I love because it told the story of ancient Rome through Shakespeare and through history and through Plato and all these kind of ideas of ancient Rome or Socrates and all these ideas of ancient Rome. And it then told a very ground level story from the perspective of handmaidens and centurions and still has Marc Anthony and Cleopatra and everything going on in it. But it tells a very soap opera like drama through it.

And so there was this other show and it had been out like three seasons when I started watching it and it did the exact same thing. Nobody had ever, nobody was talking about it. Nobody had ever heard about it. Most people don’t even know about it. It’s The Chosen. Do you know this show?

JOE ROGAN: What was that?

ROGER AVARY: It does the exact same thing, but it does it with the Gospels and it’s all about Christ. And it’s like a low budget or it was low budget, crowdfunded story of Jesus and it just basically like Rome tells this historical tale about Jesus and okay, so I’m watching. I’ve seen every movie about Jesus ever made. I’ve seen King of Kings of both versions. I’ve seen the Zeffirelli film. I’ve seen Last Temptation of Christ. I’ve seen The Passion of the Christ. I’ve seen all of them. I’ve seen the Jeremy Sisto Jesus movie. I’ve seen everything. I worked with Paul Verhoeven on his Jesus film that was unproduced.

And so I had a lot of experience and I never really got it, to be perfectly honest. I never really understood the story. This show, I started watching it, I was like, okay, I’ve got a chip on my shoulder. Let’s see. And it’s really cheap. It’s like rocks are made out of styrofoam. They can’t afford a house, and so they just use blankets and a gourd hanging. And so it’s really, really inexpensive. And the script is even a little bit contemporary and which almost becomes like a joke as you’re watching it. It’s kind of funny.

But lo and behold, I’m watching it. And there came a moment by about episode three where it was like, ding. I get it. Like, Jesus is kind of punk rock. He’s basically saying there are no rules to anything. Like, you can commit miracles on the Sabbath. There are no rules. Anybody is like, all you need to be is wanting of salvation. And it was like a third eye opened up to me.

And this show is fantastic, and it breaks all the rules. It’s outside of the Pharisees of Hollywood. One guy, this guy, Dallas Jenkins, who’s absolutely my favorite modern filmmaker right now, I think this guy’s brilliant. He’s directed every single episode of this show. And they’ve got like seven seasons out. And you can watch it for free. On what? On anything. Like, if you have an Apple TV, you can just look up there, The Chosen app, and boop, up comes The Chosen app.

JOE ROGAN: And so it’s an app thing.

The Rise of Independent Faith-Based Content

ROGER AVARY: Or you can watch it on YouTube or you can watch it. I think Netflix eventually. I think it was Netflix eventually bought it. Now they’re showing it, basically. You can see it anywhere. They give it away the way the Gideons give away the Bible. And, you know, I thought it was fantastic.

And then season two came around, and suddenly they had all this money, and they’re doing all these, like, you know, they’ve got this ancient Judea set with cobblestone streets and, you know, like, this detailed set and Roman colonnades and stuff like that. And I was like, wow. Like, they really got a big budget.

Then I looked it up, and I was like, oh, no, they’re using. The Mormons have all these standing sets for their biblical productions in Utah, and they’re incredible. These sets are unbelievable. If I had known. It’s like China Cheetah in Utah. It’s absolutely fantastic.

And the characters are like, they only have money for, like, three Romans costumes, probably, and so they’re kind of like making do with what they have. But they’ve got this guy playing the legate there who is hilarious. He’s in the first season. He is absolutely hilarious. And the show is great.

And then like proper television, you’re watching it and you’re starting to love these characters, and you’re starting to like, it’s. And it’s, you know what it is? The bread and butter of Hollywood is revenge and wrath. Like, that’s what makes, that’s the fuel that pushes most Hollywood movies.

It is much more difficult and requires much more maturity to make a movie about forgiveness. And this kid, Dallas Jenkins, I call him a kid, but he’s not a kid. That’s an insult. He’s super great. He is making, every single episode is effectively, because it’s the gospels about forgiveness. And he has done this magnificent, unbelievable achievement.

And the show is huge. Now they’ve got like, seven seasons. They’ve built a studio, you know, like, outside of Dallas, Fort Worth, on a Salvation Army property that they’ve built sound stages and everything. And it is, I think, and like, and that’s like, you can get it anywhere. You can watch it anywhere.

And they’re making programming that should have been on HBO. It should have been produced by HBO the way Rome was. And instead, it’s just, it’s coming out of the ether. And it’s almost like with the inattention given to, you know, most modern, or rather the way that people are making things that they’re focused on wrath and revenge, like this other thing, like the Pendragon cycle and the chosen have kind of risen out of the vacuum that those other, that the studios and broadcasters have kind of created because they’re not no longer making that kind of product, at least not as much.

And so I think this is actually one of the most exciting times in media and television.

Breaking the Monopoly on Content

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, I definitely think it’s a very unusual time where the normal people that are producing things don’t have a complete monopoly on what people see. Many of the times these alternative things have gotten much larger than the mainstream things.

ROGER AVARY: I am, I find it, like, almost impossible to get a movie going. Like, I’m, you know, I’m like an independent filmmaker. I go out there and I usually, I work on a script, and then I figure out the budgets and I figure out that, and I go out and I hit the pavement. And it’s a really hard part, probably because I’m a flat earther kid. I am not a flat earther, I just like to provoke people.

But, you know, I go out there and I try to get this stuff made and it’s like almost impossible. And then I built a technology company over the last year and basically making AI movies. And all of a sudden boom, like that money gets thrown at it and all of a sudden, just by attaching the word AI and that it’s a technology based company, all of a sudden investors, you know, came in and we’re in production on three films now.

JOE ROGAN: Now AI is hot right now.

The AI Revolution in Filmmaking

ROGER AVARY: Three. I know. That’s the crazy thing is that it was so easy for me to get that going and so difficult for me to get a traditional movie going through the traditional route. Like going to, you know, A24, blah, blah, blah, trying to like, you know, hit the pavement. Oh, I have to go to Europe to gather together financing and everything like that. No, just put AI in front of it. And all of a sudden you’re in production on three features.

And we’re making a Christmas movie that, a family Christmas movie that’ll be in theaters this, this holiday season. We’re making a faith based film for next Easter. And then we’re making a kind of big romantic war epic and like, as classical movies. And we have like a proprietary stack of technology that we use for our process.

And I partnered with this company, Massive Studios AI and formed my company, which is General Cinema Dynamics and I’m based here in Texas now and, or my company is. And I’m slowly transitioning. Nice.

And it’s like, it’s actually kind of, I think, you know, so many people are against AI. Like Guillermo and, you know, love him, but he’s like, AI, f* AI. But all it is is visual effects. And I have experience, like with that Beowulf movie, doing it. And what used to be a million dollars a minute is now $5,000 a minute. And so to do it really, really well, like, it looks kind of amazing actually.

And so I think for independent cinema and for the future of film and television production, these are super exciting times.

Wrapping Up and the ISS Mystery Solved

JOE ROGAN: All right, Roger, we just burned through three hours plus.

ROGER AVARY: Oh my God.

JOE ROGAN: Yeah, it’s already four o’clock. Figure this out. Okay, share it with you. All right, so what I pulled up is this.

ROGER AVARY: This is NASA, right? This is proper.

JOE ROGAN: This is a far TV. They’re probably pulling in multiple feeds. There’s three different boxes at the bottom, as you can see. This one in the middle says offline. So as I showed you, also I pulled up the NASA feed, which is this says it’s offline. When that is offline, this channel adds a 3D model showing where the satellite currently is so that you can still follow along.

Thirty minutes ago, it wasn’t offline and it was showing a different feed. And I wish I could have showed it to you then, but I didn’t interrupt, so, got it. There is a flatter YouTube Reddit asking this exact thing. What is that? And the people on the flat Earth Reddit gave me the answer.

ROGER AVARY: Yeah, those, the crazies. The crazies have come out to.

JOE ROGAN: Okay. There you go. So that was what that was.

ROGER AVARY: Well, I’m glad we put that.

JOE ROGAN: So it just says the video description. Switch to a simulation with the ISS above the Earth when the connection is lost. I was going to point that, because you can see the stars in there, and you can’t see the stars while you can see the Earth.

ROGER AVARY: I’m glad we can be comforted by at least one thing that is secure and stable in our understanding of reality.

JOE ROGAN: Roger, that was very fun, though. Thank you very much. Let’s do this.

ROGER AVARY: Really a pleasure.

JOE ROGAN: It was a good time.

ROGER AVARY: Really super pleasure.

JOE ROGAN: Thank you, brother.

ROGER AVARY: Appreciate you very much.

JOE ROGAN: All right, bye, everybody.

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